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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by Ben Stover,

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individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're all

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licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice

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out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed mental health professionals,

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this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill

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our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.

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Speaker 2: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider. Sometimes there's a movie so

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good that we have to record it right away. Thunderbolts

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is that kind of movie so huge spoiler alert if

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you haven't seen it yet. We will be discussing our

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favorite parts of the movie along with our normal treatment

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and final thoughts. The plot of the movie is after

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finding themselves ensnared in a death trap, an unconventional team

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but manti heroes must go on a dangerous mission that

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will force them to confront the darkest corners of their past.

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And I guess we should put a caveat here that

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we are really going to try to only talk about

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this movie in the context of Thunderbolts, and what I

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mean by that is them see You is huge. We're

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not I'm definitely not keeping up with it. So we're

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gonna talking about all the characters as they see in

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this as we see them in this movie, just in case.

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I don't know. I guess I'm getting I'm hedging our bets,

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which is not gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: But this movie was specifically created with the idea in

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mind that people shouldn't have to be doing homework anymore.

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Oh yeah, in order to watch a film. That's what

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Figi said. It was like, we need to start making

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films so people don't have to do homework to watch them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is true. Actually, I can commend the movie

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for this off the top, because I am not an

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ant Man movie watcher. It's just not for me. I've

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seen the first movie once and then I don't think

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I've seen any of the others. If I have, I

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don't recall. So even like thinking about the ghost character,

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I didn't need to like remember who she was from

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those movies to watch this one. So you're exactly right. Yeah,

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so I Ffiggie pulled it off.

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Speaker 2: After a period of very much not pulling it off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wasn't gonna watch the Secret Invasion to watch

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this movie. I did not watch Secret Invasion. I also

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did not watch Secret Invasion.

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Speaker 2: There was a great many things that started to feel

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very tedious. Yeah, and this movie reset a timeline yet

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again that very much needed to be reset. And this

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movie was exactly what it needed to be, not a

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thing more or less.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this movie was a breath afresh. So this

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movie definitely felt like the punch in the arm that

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the Marvel universe needed. And why we particularly want to

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talk about this movie is because this movie is about

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mental health. You could argue that the villain of the

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movie is a mental health I would agree with that.

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I feel like a part of the reason why we

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wanted to do this film so much is because it

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does it so beautifully as well, which is what I

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feel like we just don't often get. I know that

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we've talked in the past about a lot of different

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Marvel movies and how they often are able to do

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a good job of showing mental health. But this one

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felt particularly poignant in a little bit different way than

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I feel like it normally it normally hits, and I

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think that was a really, like you said, truly just

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nice to see something a little bit different, but something

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that was focused on a real experience that people have. Yeah, So,

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like you said, we're going to more group this episode

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by character, which is kind of the point of the

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movie itself. It's about about a gaggle of misfit toys

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that come together to try to play nice with each other,

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because as the movie starts, they're actually being plotted against

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each other. Yes, by Valentina. I know, she makes a

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point of her last name. Oh it's a really long name.

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I don't recall d something or other. Yea, yeah, something

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like that, de la Fontaine, not Fonteine, right, as she says,

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right of course, yes, yeah, But she's basically like a

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corrupt politician question mark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a cabinet member or forman, a cabinet member.

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Speaker 1: Right, and she is trying to clean up her mess,

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and part of her mess is all these little assassins

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that she's collected, which is basically all the characters they

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named with the exception of Bucky.

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Speaker 2: Correct who is now a congressman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I guess we'll get into that in a

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little bit, But first we wanted to talk about Alexa

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and Yolena. As you Lena is, I would consider her

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the main character of this ensemble cast. Yes, I would

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agree with that absolutely. Yeah. So the movie starts with

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Yolena just basically monologuing about how she's a depressive episode.

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And as you pointed out, Hannah, when we watch it

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the first time, she is going about her life like

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she's going to work in sweatpants, which I didn't even

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think about but is such a good detail, and demonstrating

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that she is someone who is going through the motions.

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She doesn't care about what she does anymore, she doesn't

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feel like worked up by what she does anymore. And

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even though she is doing it's kind of comical. Actually,

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even though she's doing assassin work, she looks bored. Yeah,

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I feel like she looks I think you hit the

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nail on the head, Like she looks like she's not

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interested in in any of it. She's not engaged in

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any of it. She's literally going through the motions. When

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people experience depressive episodes, a lot of time that is

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a big part of their experience of not finding joy,

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not founding meaning and different things in their life. And

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so I think that's definitely where we see Yelena in

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the opening of the film, and just in general, her

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attitude throughout the beginning of the film is very She

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very much is in that depressive episode. Well she is.

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Speaker 2: She's actively monologuing about how she's not getting anything at

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all from what she's doing. She's just mah, you're gonna

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do the thing now, and I'm gonna do the thing

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and then you're gonna try that thing and it's gonna

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go bad, and yeah why. And she's actively questioning the

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meaning of her life, yeah, which is not just a

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depressive episode, but she's having an existential crisis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And also she's doing the same thing she's been doing.

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You know, she's been stuck in this identity where when

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she was brainwashed, she was doing the same thing she's

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doing now, just for different team. Basically, Yeah, it's just

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a different boss. So she's never what it is. Yeah,

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So she's never really figured out who she is. She

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kind of just went right from being a black widow

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to being another version of a black widow for the

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American government instead of the Russian government, but not even

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the real government, a shadow government.

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Speaker 2: Shadow aspect, Yeah, totally. That leads to her feeling like

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a shadow of herself, just a what am I?

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Speaker 1: Who am I? Do I have an actual identity? Or

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am I just this m and she's I mean she

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calls it a void, which obviously plays into the bigger

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story later, but she refers to her depression as a void.

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And why I really feel for her too, is how

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lonely she is. I think that's something you notice with

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her right off the bat. She's by herself, she's talking

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to a guy. She has tied up about how she's feeling.

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And also I assume because the nature of her work

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isolates her too, like she has so many secrets, not

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just about her past, which obviously, as we see later

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in the movie, is really sitting inside of her infestering,

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but also her life is a secret. Her past is

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a secret, so it creates this isolating factor that would

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only exacerbate, if not cause itself, the depression she's feeling.

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Absolutely a big part of experiencing a depressive episode is

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being very lonely and feeling very disconnected and really and

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also not really having the motivation to be connected to

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anyone either because it feels like it's too hard, because

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everything feels so exhausting when you're in that state. Well,

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and also for her, how would she start, Well, she

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has this pseudo childhood that gets blown to fucking smotherings,

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then she gets raised in a military situation, and then

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she just gets thrown into the world, and then the

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only lifeline she has too a functioning world is her

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sister who died. And we also don't even think about

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the fact that she was in the BLib too. Oh God,

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So she's like so removed from the world period in

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so many ways.

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Speaker 2: Which tends to create a question about which version of

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me is real? Oh yeah, but she's struggling with should

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I have died? There are a lot of people who

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go through things like she's gone through in reality without

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the magic of a BLib that will question am I

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supposed to be here? Am I actually here? Did I

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die in the war? Did I die in the fire?

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Did I die in x y Z the car crash?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is why she ends up at fucking Alexei's house,

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her fake dad's house, just trying to feel something I

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think that she really feels like it kind of reminds

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me of Thor in an endgame, Yes, an endgame, when

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we see Thor needing to have somebody who knew him

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from before to help him remember who he was, which

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is when he ran into his mom and that whole

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time thing that happens. And so what I feel like

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for Yelena is that this is the only person that

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she knows. This is the only person that knew her

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as a kid and just knew her in a different

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context basically, And it makes a lot of sense to

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me that she goes to Alexi even though she kind

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of doesn't know how to ask for what she needs initially,

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and she's really just showing up, I think, to see

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if anything happens. Well, I think she's just trying to

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find a parent, the way that we're all trying to

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find a parent in different ways, no matter how old

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we are. And her closest parent is this deadbeat piece

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of shits who is I mean, I don't feel bad

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saying that, because that's how he's portrayed. Like literally, how

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he's introducing this movie is robe open boxer shorts eating

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I can't even remember what garbage she was eating watching

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old videos He's basically watched. He's basically a guy watching

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old football footage from when he was in the NFL.

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He's Uncle Rico And he's the closest I was sinking

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the same thing, Ben, And she's the closest thing she

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has to a parent who is greg and white lotus.

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And I I get why she keeps going back to him,

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you know, because she needs something that feels like you're saying,

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of the feels real, and she needs someone to care

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about her. And you can't. You can't get rid of

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that within yourself, none of us can. Yeah, And I

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feel like she needs she really wants someone to tell

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her what to do, which is also something that people

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feel when they're experiencing a depressive episode like this, is

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that they don't because they feel so overwhelmed all the time.

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They don't. They just have a really hard time being

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able to follow through with things or being able to

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do things, and having somebody tell them what to do

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just feels so it's just something that they're grasping at

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because they're so overwhelmed, but also confused. Well with her, especially,

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she was not raised to have an individual identity she

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was raised to be obedient and compliant, a be good soldier.

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So of course she would want that because she was

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never encouraged to be herself, I mean not even to

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be yourself, Like she wasn't encouraged to have a self

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at all. And so of course she's wandering around that

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the world is an adult feeling a purposeless empty How

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much is the depression, how much of it is like

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not having a sense of self one in both? I

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mean it's a clusterfuck. And so she's going to the

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fucking idiot and he doesn't even know who he is

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either his red guardian who he is? I really, I

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know it would have been trued to his character. But

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when she asks him, like she asked him something onlines

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when they earned that house in the beginning scene of

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like when did you feel like yourself? Or when did

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you feel good? And I wish he would have said,

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but I know this would just movie magic. This isn't

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a real answer. I wish she would have said, when

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I've pretended to be your dad, But I know that

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wasn't the rural answer because he was so psyched when

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they got out of a situation black Widow. So if

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that had been his answer, it would have been definitely bullshit.

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But I'm like, you couldn't have pulled that out of

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your ass and gave that to her. But he doesn't

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know how to do that for her at all.

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Speaker 2: Because he's an actual soldier whereas she's an assassin, and

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the difference in the training between the two. Even her

240
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entire function is to disappear into whatever she's told to do,

241
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whatever her mission is, and by whatever means necessary, whatever

242
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deception necessary. He, on the other hand, was the Captain

243
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America of the USSR, so his goal was to be

244
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out in front and restore himself to the sense of

245
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glory and importance and purpose that he gained from being

246
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a figurehead, whereas she was supposed to be invisible.

247
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Speaker 1: I actually think it's more that he was her dad

248
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and she was never his child, because he was an

249
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adult when they did that yeah undercover stuff, so he

250
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,639
always knew she's not really my kid. I'm playing this

251
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stupid part for a while until I can go back

252
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to being the Red Guardian and have all the glory.

253
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And like she says in the Black Widow movie when

254
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they're having that fight at the table and she gets pissed,

255
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and she says, you were my mother. She's going to

256
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him wanting her dad, and as they talk more in

257
00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:06,840
that kind of fight ish touching moment they have in

258
00:15:06,879 --> 00:15:09,879
the street later in the movie, mm hmm, Yeah, she's

259
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:16,320
looking for her dad, and unfortunately he doesn't really get

260
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,639
that until she explicitly says, I was looking. I'm looking

261
00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:23,360
for my dad. I've been looking for my dad. Where

262
00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:25,960
the fuck have you been? And he says, I didn't

263
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,919
think you wanted me, which I read I think you

264
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,679
and I have different opinions. On his hand, we do.

265
00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:36,879
I read that in a more uh generous way, and

266
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that I read that as he he is not he

267
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,399
I think he has low self esteem. But where am

268
00:15:45,399 --> 00:15:47,200
I going with this is I don't I think he

269
00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:49,399
meant like, I really didn't think that I would be

270
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,320
the person you would want to come for you. Because

271
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she makes a big point in like the Blackwood movie

272
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:55,799
of like I fucking hate you. She punches in the

273
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,240
face like she does a lot in that movie to

274
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,960
tell him to go fuck himself, So I can see

275
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,559
where he would think like the last thing she wants

276
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,360
to do is deal with me, like she doesn't like me,

277
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and I don't think he's emotionally sophisticated enough to get

278
00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:15,759
to the more parental inference level, which is that she

279
00:16:16,759 --> 00:16:19,799
doesn't want me, she's just mad at me. Yeah, And

280
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,799
I looked at it more as of course he didn't

281
00:16:21,799 --> 00:16:28,039
think about what Elena wanted because he sucks well. And

282
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,679
you kind of read well, you read that he didn't

283
00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:32,639
want I didn't think you wanted me, lying is like,

284
00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:34,879
if it's not about him, then he's not thinking about

285
00:16:34,919 --> 00:16:37,039
it at all. Yeah, And I read it more from

286
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,840
maybe because David Harbor is such a good actor and

287
00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:41,440
I think of him as like Chief Hopper with his

288
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,879
other is. I read it more as like, I really

289
00:16:44,919 --> 00:16:48,960
didn't think you wanted me to be the person with you.

290
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Speaker 2: I saw it the way Brittany sees it, just.

291
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 1: Because the other tones of that conversation is he does

292
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:04,000
seem very surprised and emotional that she's so emotional, Like,

293
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,880
I really don't think he realized how much he means

294
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:13,079
to her in that context. I think he locked it away.

295
00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:15,240
Speaker 2: I think it meant a lot to all of them,

296
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,559
and that even though they were playing family on TV

297
00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:20,839
and were on a mission and doing all this stuff,

298
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,079
that they formed very real bonds and became dependent on

299
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,720
each other, and all of their bonds were more real

300
00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:30,640
than they ever felt or acknowledged because they weren't supposed to. Yeah,

301
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,279
and that they limited it within themselves and kind of

302
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,319
fractured it off. But when they got into these periods

303
00:17:39,319 --> 00:17:44,400
of being lost and empty and their old identities no

304
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,799
longer meaning a damn thing, which means all this pain

305
00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:50,279
that they're going through doesn't have anywhere to connect to.

306
00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:53,519
Now they're searching for the only thing that ever was real,

307
00:17:54,839 --> 00:17:55,599
which was each other.

308
00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he still does have that photo of him

309
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,200
coaching her team. It's just so fucked up to do

310
00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:05,000
that to a kid, to put him in this position,

311
00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,559
to put both of this position when you really think

312
00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:09,519
about the fact that they were like in pee wee

313
00:18:09,559 --> 00:18:12,960
they were in like pee wee leagues where he was

314
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,200
coaching them. Like can you imagine that she thought he

315
00:18:16,279 --> 00:18:20,519
was her dad until she was six years old? Like

316
00:18:20,559 --> 00:18:23,960
that's crazy work. So that means he is her dude? Yeah,

317
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,160
he is her dad truly. Truly. I don't know. I

318
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,079
don't give Alexi that he has the ability to have

319
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,079
that much fucking insight, But uh, maybe I don't think

320
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,119
what you two are saying is necessarily wrong in any way.

321
00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:41,359
I just he just doesn't seem like he gets it.

322
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,559
I think by the second conversation he does, But the

323
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,400
first one really felt like he was really still it

324
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,759
was still all about him. Well, yeah, he's definitely a narcissist. Yes,

325
00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:59,799
I don't think you can argue about that. Yeah, like that,

326
00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:03,480
he's still talking about himself when Yealinge is there talking

327
00:19:03,519 --> 00:19:04,960
to him in the beginning of the movie, He's like,

328
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:06,799
can I be on the team too? Look at this

329
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,079
stupid fucking limo service I'm doing, Like he wants to

330
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:12,960
be the hero. The fact that he takes all that

331
00:19:13,039 --> 00:19:16,799
time to drive out there way after the fact and

332
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,279
is so loud and yelling. I do love that when

333
00:19:20,319 --> 00:19:22,680
she's like embarrassed, like her dad's picking her up from

334
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,039
school and she's like, shut the fuck up. But he

335
00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:32,400
is limited by his narcissism, and so yeah, it becomes

336
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,680
that situation when they have that argument on the street

337
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,079
where she has to spell it the fuck out for

338
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,519
him for him to finally be like, oh okay. Which

339
00:19:41,559 --> 00:19:44,359
is frustrating about having a parent like him in real

340
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:51,559
life is having to be so so so concrete and

341
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,640
direct about what you need from them, and you can't

342
00:19:54,839 --> 00:19:57,759
just rely on them to understand.

343
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,079
Speaker 2: I think he gets there when he starts talking to

344
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,240
her on the street, when people are disappearing into the

345
00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:12,480
shadow realm, her tears are real that Okay, that was

346
00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:13,559
really good.

347
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,839
Speaker 1: You're dying to do this accent the whole time. He

348
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,119
can do many eccents. This is one of them.

349
00:20:20,279 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 2: It's a terrible, but it will come out. I think

350
00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:26,400
really she really was touched by what he said, and

351
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,519
it was clear that he was letting that out of

352
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,079
whatever compartment he had been keeping it in, that their

353
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,160
connection is real, and the feelings that they had depending

354
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,440
on each other and doing all those things weren't just

355
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,799
for pretend. They were real, and even if they started

356
00:20:41,799 --> 00:20:45,599
his pretend, they became real and became treasured memories. And

357
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:51,079
him letting that out really activates Selena into becoming a

358
00:20:51,759 --> 00:20:56,960
more engaged, trusting version of herself. She becomes the light

359
00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:58,880
in the story at that point.

360
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, like trusting her intuition to go into the void again.

361
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,200
I think one of the things that I wanted to

362
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,200
point out about the conversation they have in the street

363
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,319
is that a lot of times when we are able

364
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,599
to be vulnerable with someone, a lot of times they

365
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,680
are able to be vulnerable back. I'm not saying pick

366
00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:23,720
the person who you have the most disconnection from and

367
00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:26,880
try it with them. What I am saying is trying

368
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,680
to do it with people that you feel comfortable with.

369
00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:33,880
It is clear that she feels comfortable with being vulnerable,

370
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,240
even though she I think kind of has to push

371
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,000
herself to really get all of that out. That she

372
00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:42,880
is able in that moment to be vulnerable. She is

373
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,960
able to ask for what she needs and say what

374
00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:48,039
she needs, and I think that pulls at him of

375
00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:51,119
those real parts that I think you are right about Ben,

376
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,160
that he had, you know, kind of tucked away of

377
00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:56,559
like I'm not supposed to feel this. It's not supposed

378
00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:59,200
to be like this. Yeah, the conversation I have on

379
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,079
the street, I think is the conversation she maybe was

380
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,759
trying to have, maybe had the intention to have when

381
00:22:05,759 --> 00:22:08,880
she visited him in the very beginning, but it would

382
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:09,960
have been too hard to do it.

383
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,839
Speaker 2: Then she did also show up out of nowhere. To

384
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,559
be fair, he was in the midst of feeling all

385
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,160
his own feelings and stuck in his mess. Was that

386
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,880
what she was looking for, what she got in the

387
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,880
street when she showed up, of course, it was could

388
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,480
he have possibly delivered that at that moment, I don't

389
00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:32,799
think so.

390
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. And she was also kind of non intentionally testing him,

391
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,559
like she brought up a few times, you haven't called

392
00:22:40,599 --> 00:22:43,839
me and over a year we haven't seen each other.

393
00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:47,799
You haven't reached out to me since Natasha died, Like

394
00:22:47,839 --> 00:22:50,119
there was a part of her that was keeping obviously

395
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,559
keeping track of that. So when she shows up out

396
00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:56,119
of nowhere for her, it's not nowhere because she's like,

397
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,000
I've been waiting, like, motherfucker, I guess I have to

398
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,920
come to you to talk to you, and you should

399
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,400
be ready to talk to me. I think, is what's

400
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,759
the child in her? I think is having that thought.

401
00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:11,680
I don't think consciously, but she brings up many times

402
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,519
like we haven't seen each other in a while and

403
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,680
called while care about me. Basically is what she keeps

404
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,960
saying to him, and he is not hearing it.

405
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 2: No, he's not. I'm not saying he didn't fail. I'm

406
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,279
just saying there was no chance he was going to pass.

407
00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: Oh no, and he was. He was locked up in

408
00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:32,599
his whole his own imagery stuff because he's trying to

409
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,400
clean his place, uf he's trying to look like he's

410
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:35,759
trying to look like less of a piece of shit

411
00:23:35,839 --> 00:23:38,920
when she rolls upon his house. So he's also locked

412
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,839
in trying to uphold the version of himself. He's always

413
00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:46,880
trying to uphold this like shiny cool guy version of himself.

414
00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:50,400
So her also showing up when he is in his

415
00:23:50,519 --> 00:23:54,960
active trash heap of an apartment is putting him on

416
00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:56,680
his back feet. And so in this one when they

417
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,559
find on the street too, even th there's a lot

418
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:02,279
of chaos going on. He's also been a superhero and

419
00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:06,279
so he's wearing a red Guardian outfit like he's feeling himself.

420
00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:08,799
And so I think he's finally able to have this

421
00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:12,440
conversation with her because he's feeling good and grounded.

422
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,279
Speaker 2: And getting what he needed, yeah, from his own identity.

423
00:24:16,319 --> 00:24:19,880
I mean, it's important to recognize one of the things

424
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,400
this script did beautifully was put out for us that

425
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,240
people want to give you the best version of themselves.

426
00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:28,480
They want to care for your knees. They really do,

427
00:24:28,599 --> 00:24:31,000
but when there are barriers preventing them from doing so,

428
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,359
it is harder or impossible and having some empathy and

429
00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:40,920
understanding that giving people the opportunity to get in a

430
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,920
position to give you what you need makes it go

431
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:44,880
a lot better.

432
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,039
Speaker 1: And I think for you, Elena, I could see from

433
00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:51,960
her perspective too, because they already have that exchange in

434
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,880
Black Widow where she tells him you are everything to me,

435
00:24:56,759 --> 00:24:59,599
And so I could also see her sitting in her

436
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,359
apartment being like, I've told him he means everything to me,

437
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,319
and he's still not calling me. He's the kind of

438
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,119
parent that if I was working with her as a client,

439
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:12,279
I would ask her like, are you are you caught

440
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,440
up in who he actually is? Are you caught up

441
00:25:14,519 --> 00:25:17,279
and who you want him to be or the kind

442
00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:19,519
of dad you want to have? And so you're like

443
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,720
putting this idea of him around him, but that's not

444
00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:25,200
actually him. So you just keep breaking your own heart,

445
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,559
like he's not the dad you had in Ohio. He's

446
00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:34,519
not that guy, and to keep expecting him to be

447
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,319
that guy is hurting you. You have to acknowledge the

448
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,200
person he is. That's not to let him off the hook,

449
00:25:41,559 --> 00:25:43,680
but it's just so that she can stop putting herself

450
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,880
in that position of why isn't he calling me? Why

451
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,799
am I? Why am I not worth calling? Why doesn't

452
00:25:50,799 --> 00:25:54,279
the last faux family member I have give a shit

453
00:25:54,319 --> 00:25:54,720
about me?

454
00:25:54,799 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: Because the world doesn't give a shit about him, which

455
00:25:58,039 --> 00:26:02,119
was how he was socialized to have meaning, and that's

456
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,160
where having empathy for it. No, we're not excusing it

457
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:09,440
or not excusing his failure. But if you cannot understand

458
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,799
that every single human is their own dynamic, complex web

459
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,440
of identity and all the things that happened to them

460
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,960
to form it, voluntary or not, you are missing the

461
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,880
point and you can never get your need met by

462
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,279
that person. You have to see them in the context

463
00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:32,319
that they are in presently versus the one that they

464
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,799
were in when you knew them or whenever, you know,

465
00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:39,480
for her, going back to that Ohio version of him

466
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:40,720
that was never.

467
00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:43,319
Speaker 1: Real, like she needs to grieve that dad.

468
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 2: But also keep from it what was real Like there's.

469
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean like grieve that idea she might

470
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,279
be holding on to so that she can actually see

471
00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:55,559
the sort of dad that's still in front of her.

472
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,839
Speaker 2: But also understand his flaws and how they got there,

473
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,079
because you do if you're going to have an ongoing

474
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,440
relationship with someone you have to create space for them

475
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,759
to be imperfect because they are. We cannot live in

476
00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:13,680
this space that I fear social media is trying to

477
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,279
create for us where people are either this perfect being

478
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,799
that's always everything, or their shit and we should cut

479
00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:21,160
them out.

480
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:22,039
Speaker 1: It's not real.

481
00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: But where people need to be looking at is that

482
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,599
people do have flaws, They do make mistakes, and we

483
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,240
have to create space and understanding and empathy for them

484
00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:35,240
while also still holding our own boundaries. And sometimes we

485
00:27:35,279 --> 00:27:39,759
can hold empathic space for somebody away from us, it

486
00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:40,839
no longer get access.

487
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, she needs to read Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents,

488
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,240
So I feel like that would really help her with Alexi,

489
00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:49,720
which talks about this stuff that you're bringing up, which

490
00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:52,960
is if you are choosing to have this person remain

491
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,839
in your life, then you need to figure out what

492
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,799
your objectives are when you're around them that have to

493
00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:02,720
do with what you have control over. Correct not changing

494
00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:06,279
their mind, not making them magically different person where they

495
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,720
just go, oh, yeah, you know what, you were always right?

496
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,599
You know, you have to figure out, like what's what's

497
00:28:13,599 --> 00:28:15,400
the level of acceptance of who they are that I

498
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,960
can deal with? And if I can't then I have

499
00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:22,559
to stop waiting for him to call or dropping by

500
00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:26,960
his place. And I don't think that she's at a

501
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,519
place where she can and should. I mean, I think

502
00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:32,720
what's going to be interesting now going forward is that

503
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,960
they now work together. That's a mess. I'd be like

504
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,200
if I was a therapist, to be like, oh, now

505
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,359
you guys gonna be working together? How's that going? Yikes?

506
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: Avengers with a Z, That's how that's going.

507
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,839
Speaker 1: He's just being such like an Eastern European dad, which maybe,

508
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,519
honestly in some ways is healing for her that he's

509
00:28:55,599 --> 00:28:57,920
being such an embarrassing.

510
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: Dad nice like I mean sort of days being a

511
00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:03,279
middle aged bro in attraction.

512
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: He's a douche. We can just say it. He is

513
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,440
a douche. He's putting z's on things. He is putting

514
00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:11,279
behavior that's like in a good place when they do

515
00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:13,119
a little checklists on that TV show about like what

516
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,920
gets you into the bad place? And one of them

517
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,960
is having vanity license plates. The other one would be

518
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,480
have you ever put a Z on something where there

519
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:27,240
should be? In us? Is there anything else that we

520
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,359
want to say about Alexi and Yelena? You should take

521
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,960
a break here. So the next person that we're going

522
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:36,279
to talk about is one of our faves, Bucky Barnes.

523
00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:40,799
Yay barn to see his handsome face back on the

524
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:45,200
screen playing one of my favorite characters. Also says a

525
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,000
lot about how fucking Looney Tunes the world is right now.

526
00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:50,440
That honestly, like ten years ago, if you've been like,

527
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,480
he's going to be a congressman, that's crazy, But now

528
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,519
I'm like, you know what, why not? Yeah, an ex assassin,

529
00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:59,200
military public assassin becomes a congressman.

530
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 3: Sure.

531
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,119
Speaker 1: I really love that. How we're introduced to him as

532
00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:06,839
a congressman is he has to give that snippet in

533
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:09,359
that interview. He gets that mic shoved in his face

534
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,240
and he is not good at it. And I liked that,

535
00:30:12,839 --> 00:30:15,279
Like it would have felt fake if he was all

536
00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:20,039
of a sudden, like charismatic and well spoken and like articulate.

537
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,039
He ain't. And I like that it seems like he's

538
00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:25,400
learned like five words that you're supposed to use, Like

539
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,960
he's had some media training where they're like, just use

540
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,519
the words on this list, and those are the only

541
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:32,119
words he uses, and they're like, you don't have to

542
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,160
use just the words on the list, and he's like, what,

543
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,599
well it's concerning I do like that he's I agree

544
00:30:39,599 --> 00:30:43,440
with you. Clearly, this is new. Clearly he is trying

545
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,039
to figure out how to do this in a different way.

546
00:30:46,359 --> 00:30:49,279
But I also really enjoyed that there were some parts

547
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,839
of the opening of the film where his old tactics

548
00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:58,319
and old behaviors he can he in some ways can't

549
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,640
escape them, and I think that's very, very realistic. I

550
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,400
think that made me feel like, I'm really glad that

551
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,440
they're showing that even though he's done so much work

552
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,799
and he's healed in so many different ways, and he's

553
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:17,279
still he still has to learn how to how to

554
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,519
engage in the world in a different way. And that's

555
00:31:20,559 --> 00:31:22,519
not something that he's had a lot of experience with.

556
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,480
Not in this way, yeah, not in the light. Yeah.

557
00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: Bucky has always been a shadow operative since World War Two.

558
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:39,160
He joined World War two and got onto special ops

559
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,279
type teams doing special ops type shit where he's out

560
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,240
doing secret stuff with the Secret Squirrel Club that the

561
00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:53,039
government doesn't talk about, and then he got caught and

562
00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:55,440
turned into a way worse version of that.

563
00:31:55,599 --> 00:31:58,279
Speaker 1: Of the most Secret Squirrel, the most.

564
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: Squirrel that there ever was for the wrong government.

565
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, for like many many, many, many decades, really.

566
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,119
Speaker 2: Really complicated stuff for him to work through and to

567
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:22,039
feel resourced in this world where Tony probably would have

568
00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:24,680
been better, even Steve wasn't good at this.

569
00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:28,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Pepper would have been a good congress person. Pepper

570
00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:30,119
would have been great. Yeah, Pepper would have been great.

571
00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:33,279
She would have been reading those packets, baby, she'd have notes.

572
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, Tony would be good at the interviews. Pepper

573
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,640
would be good at like the actual job.

574
00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:42,079
Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, Tony would be putting those packets into whatever

575
00:32:42,279 --> 00:32:45,799
version of jet Chat GBT he uses or has created

576
00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:48,519
himself to tell him what he's supposed to know. Yeah,

577
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:50,359
while he's doing something else.

578
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: And he still would do it whatever way, because we

579
00:32:54,039 --> 00:32:57,880
saw that go through when he went I'm iron Man.

580
00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I really like that the movie, like you

581
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,759
were saying, Hannah, it's really he's really well written in

582
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:10,599
it would have also felt unfair to his character development,

583
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,000
similar to as of what we do not speak black

584
00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:18,200
Widow not black Widow, Scarlet Witch and how they fucked

585
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,599
her shit up from WandaVision to the next movie that

586
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,359
she was in Multiverse of Badness. Yeah, rude, whereas this

587
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,039
one could have done that. Yeah, because when you watch

588
00:33:28,039 --> 00:33:31,240
the trailer, you're like he was in therapy, trying to

589
00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:36,599
be a human being period in the Falcon Winter Soldier,

590
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,880
and now he's a congressman. How I do like that

591
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,079
in the movie, he's not very good at it. Yeah,

592
00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:47,799
like they decided that optically, someone decided they were gonna

593
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:50,000
run him as a congressman, and he got the votes.

594
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:52,440
But he is not really good at it. He doesn't

595
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,000
know how to do it very well. And like you

596
00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:58,759
were saying, Hannah, he's trying to do the Winter Soldier stuff. Yeah,

597
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,160
he's trying to find an in with Mel. He tells,

598
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,799
I do like when he pulls that congressman over the

599
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:06,200
side of the congress, is like, what the fuck? Like

600
00:34:06,319 --> 00:34:10,840
he's trying to make other the other congress guy like

601
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,360
an avenger with him or something, and the other guy's like,

602
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,239
this is the real world, guy, like send me, catch

603
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,239
me in the corner, catch me in the corner to

604
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,719
be like, I got Mel. She's tactile. Tactile, He's like,

605
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,639
what And I do like that. It shows this like

606
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,000
awkward moment where Bucky is trying to communicate with him

607
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,280
the way that he would with like Steve or Sam

608
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,679
or anyone on that team, how they would deal with

609
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,639
someone like thou, which is they The movie does show

610
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,400
like if that was happening in the real world, he

611
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,239
would look bonkers. And that's when the Congressman responds to him,

612
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,679
is that she's like, the fuck are you talking about?

613
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,280
What are you? What are you talking about? What we're

614
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,800
gonna infiltrate via the assistance, like read the package, bitch,

615
00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:56,920
send me an email, and I'll see you in the

616
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,880
fucking hearing. And Bucky's like, that's not good enough.

617
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 2: Bucky is struggling with trying to be someone isn't. Yeah,

618
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,360
Bucky is someone who belongs in the Secret Squirrel Club

619
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,239
doing the real shit, but he also even does that

620
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,079
as kind of an outsider, as the guy that kind

621
00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:18,800
of comes in and does the thing.

622
00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 1: Well. He is, as we called him, I think in

623
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,119
one of our last episodes or past episodes, he is

624
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,760
like the stepchild in every situation he's in kind of yep.

625
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 2: But where he's struggling is because now he knows so

626
00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:33,199
much more.

627
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: Everything.

628
00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that this bullshit that's happening right in front of

629
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,360
him is how the bullshit happens, how all of it happens,

630
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,559
and whatever she's doing is really bad and it's going

631
00:35:47,639 --> 00:35:50,920
to go so bad and it's going to stack bad

632
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,079
upon bad upon bad, and we need to actually do

633
00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:57,199
something about it. Not this decorum bullshit. You can read

634
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:58,559
all the package you want.

635
00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:05,079
Speaker 1: It's yeah, he's not used to the galacial speed that

636
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:08,880
going through the system. Is well also because he knows

637
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:14,159
that that's not the actual shit and that she's mocking it. Yeah,

638
00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:19,320
m hmm, she's mocking it. Yeah, totally, totally.

639
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,599
Speaker 2: These people will sit in committee meetings and say whatever

640
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:27,519
you want and play the game and deflect and defend

641
00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:31,679
and go, h miss de la la Fontaine.

642
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: Were you here at this day? Well, how do you

643
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:41,880
define date? And how do you find here? Not endless nonsense, truly,

644
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,199
it's just all distraction. But I do think this movie,

645
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,960
what do you guys think of him now being able

646
00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:53,679
to be the de facto leader of something? I know

647
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,760
when because it's like he does get the like we've

648
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,239
talked about corrective experiences like him coming in on the

649
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,519
motorcycle and blowing up the tanks and getting the thunderbolts

650
00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:07,000
even though he's getting them initially for evidence against val

651
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,719
It's allowing him to use his skills as the Winter

652
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,840
Soldier without having to be the Winter Soldier, and getting

653
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,679
to use them in a more heroic way on his

654
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,079
own in some ways, on his own terms, because even

655
00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:23,280
all this stuff with like endgame and stuff, it was

656
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,239
still kind of like happening to him. Yeah, and this

657
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,320
seems like the first time that we've seen in these

658
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:34,000
movies where he's choosing to go after something.

659
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: I mean, he resigned his role in Congress to go

660
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,199
do that.

661
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh yeah, I didn't know that. Well, I guess

662
00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:45,840
I assumed I didn't. I don't think he can come

663
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:46,760
back from that behavior.

664
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 2: I guess that there's dialogue Valentina says like, wow, congressman,

665
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,840
you her like you made it a month before you

666
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:56,920
resigned or whatever, Like.

667
00:37:57,159 --> 00:37:59,119
Speaker 1: Oh, I think she just I thought she said you

668
00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:01,159
made it a month before fucking it all up. Like

669
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,920
I thought she was just saying, oh, you're here, well

670
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:04,920
your career is done now.

671
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 2: No, she put in the dialogue that he resigned. Okay,

672
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,840
something along in those science But yeah, she had that

673
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,960
air of your fucking it all up because it's her

674
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,360
world and she's you idiot.

675
00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:19,039
Speaker 1: You had to literally do nothing. You got a golden

676
00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:21,239
ticket to like you can't play the game.

677
00:38:21,639 --> 00:38:24,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, you're playing the wrong game. And I'm going

678
00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:26,000
to beat you at this game. And of course she

679
00:38:26,079 --> 00:38:30,360
does for now. But Bucky stepping back into that as

680
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,320
a corrective experience of being able to be the leader

681
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,480
he always was going to be now that he was,

682
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,199
I'm sure he was the neighborhood leader and Bucky getting

683
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,880
the chance to be that guy instead of this assassin

684
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:47,920
villain and back to this guy that was taken from

685
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,559
him after war was missing an action and god brainwashed,

686
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,760
but he used to be who he always was and

687
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,719
do that on his terms, Like you're saying, yes, that's

688
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,880
a corrective experience, and I think we will see him thrive.

689
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: It is interesting that he grows his hair back out,

690
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,039
which is probably fan service. That does feel like fan

691
00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:10,000
service to me, Yeah, because I feel like him cutting

692
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,280
his hair short and fucking the Winter Soldier and keeping

693
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:18,679
it short is him more like reclaiming himself post Winter Soldier.

694
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,840
But maybe he liked the long hair and he wanted

695
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,559
to have it back on his own terms. I don't know,

696
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:24,840
who knows.

697
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,199
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, But I like that we get to see

698
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,039
him step up. He was never gonna be the paladin.

699
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,679
He's never gonna be the white Knight. That's not his role.

700
00:39:40,679 --> 00:39:43,719
He's not the face. He's not the one who's committed

701
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,679
to the cause and is That was Steve Buck He's

702
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:52,679
the one who knows the things. He's the reluctant leader,

703
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,199
like I know the area.

704
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,559
Speaker 1: He's he's an antihero, he's a ranger. Yeah, he's not

705
00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:03,400
the one given speeches. No, yeah, yeah, No, that was

706
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:07,159
stage was Steve. It was always Steve. Steve loved to

707
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:08,639
speak with his hand and on his hips.

708
00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: But he's trying to be Steve in honor what Steve.

709
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,039
Speaker 1: Asked of him. Yeah, that's true.

710
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,199
Speaker 2: When he lets that go and his acts like Bucky,

711
00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:20,920
he escapes out of his existential crisis seeing going, this

712
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,679
is not my jam.

713
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with this. I can't

714
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:24,239
create any change of this.

715
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,599
Speaker 2: When he says, fuck it, I'm getting on my motorcycle

716
00:40:26,639 --> 00:40:31,639
and going and fucking stuff up and saving these fucking idiots. Yeah,

717
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,000
and just solving his problem. I'm not doing this bullshit.

718
00:40:34,039 --> 00:40:35,760
This is bullshit. I've seen this before.

719
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, he needs a compromise because Yeah, him sitting in

720
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:43,199
the hearing in the beginning and trying to take deep

721
00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:47,880
breaths because he's so frustrated and Nancy. It's like he

722
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,320
went from like one hundred to zero and he needed

723
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,840
to find a more realistic compromise, which I guess he

724
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,079
kind of does in this movie. I feel like he does.

725
00:40:58,159 --> 00:41:00,480
I feel like he's very I feel like we see

726
00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:06,039
him be very comfortable and very sure of himself in

727
00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:09,480
a different way than I feel like we've seen him well.

728
00:41:09,519 --> 00:41:13,000
I think as we see in the post credit scene

729
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,599
when they're like the official Avengers ish copyrighted right, because

730
00:41:17,639 --> 00:41:20,880
Yolena becomes sort of the de facto leader, but he

731
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,800
is sort of mentoring her when she's trying to make

732
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,360
a decision. He's will put it on the screen like

733
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,480
he's like gently guiding her on how to do stuff.

734
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,199
But he's still letting her do it, like he's not

735
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,079
taking it over from her, which is nice. Yeah, because

736
00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:38,679
I don't think he needs that either. He's someone who's

737
00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:40,760
gone through a lot of shit. He's not like Alexi

738
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,400
where his personality is wrapped up in how great he is. Yeah, No,

739
00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:48,639
he's her, Oh that's true.

740
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:54,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're more like he understands her probably better than

741
00:41:54,199 --> 00:41:57,760
anyone there, because they're pretty similar.

742
00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, definitely true. I mean something we

743
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,840
didn't talk about with Elena is like a big part

744
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,679
of her stuff is not sheer remembers of a horrible

745
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,159
thing she's done. Which also he has the same experience too.

746
00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:13,400
They both remember every bad thing they've done. Yeah, as assassins.

747
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,159
As it turns out, we don't tend to forget a

748
00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:19,800
whole lot. I don't think I have anything else to

749
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:24,000
say about Bucky anyone else. Nope, sounds like we should

750
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,239
take a break here. We'll come back and talk about

751
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,159
John Walker. So part of the reason why I put

752
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,599
John Walker on the list was just because I just

753
00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:35,760
wanted to touch on the fact that he's still in it.

754
00:42:36,679 --> 00:42:39,800
He's still kind of in his shit. He is still

755
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,559
not really being honest with people around him about what

756
00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:47,400
his life is like. He is kind of still stuck

757
00:42:47,519 --> 00:42:51,360
in this. I have all the answers, I have all

758
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,360
the strength. I can just do it myself. Yeah, he

759
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,599
is so in his ego. Yeah, that's the chill way

760
00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:01,199
to put it. But not like even a narciss stick away.

761
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:06,119
He's just his ego has him by the neck where well, one,

762
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,559
I guess I just want to say I love how

763
00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:12,039
they portray him in this movie in that it's like

764
00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:15,840
some guy you knew from college got the serum. Yeah,

765
00:43:16,519 --> 00:43:18,559
like just like an amplified version of that guy. You

766
00:43:18,639 --> 00:43:22,639
know'd be like that guy. And when I say, Ego

767
00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:25,000
is killing him, like the flashback, well this is not flashback,

768
00:43:25,039 --> 00:43:27,679
but the void scene he has is he's supposed to

769
00:43:27,679 --> 00:43:30,239
be watching his kid and he can't get off his

770
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:35,639
phone looking at think pieces about him. He is stuck.

771
00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:40,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is similar to Bucky in that he is

772
00:43:40,639 --> 00:43:43,960
used to just getting in there and doing the stuff

773
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,320
and being the best and being the most skilled.

774
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,679
Speaker 1: But he's now entered a world where he can't ever

775
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,440
be any of that.

776
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: And he's got the serum now which helps him be

777
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,159
some of that, but he has not learned to not

778
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:00,000
be a douche.

779
00:44:01,199 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he You're right, like he I'm sure

780
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,079
was golden star boy. I mean that's why he got

781
00:44:08,159 --> 00:44:12,159
chosen right to be Captain America. Absolutely was the Golden Boy,

782
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,960
and he fucked up so fucking royally. I don't know

783
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,320
how you can do it worse than decapitating a person

784
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,599
with the shield in broad fucking daylight. Yeah, in front

785
00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:29,599
of a bajillion people, and then get fucked over by

786
00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:32,719
the organization. Like that speech he gives in the show

787
00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:36,000
when he has to go testify or whatever. He's in it.

788
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,360
It's been a while since I've watched it. He's in

789
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,599
his like uniform. Yeah, he's like, you fucking do this

790
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,880
to me. He's not wrong. It's like the guy that

791
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,800
peaked in the high school got the serum, and so

792
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,400
that part just gets amplified.

793
00:44:49,119 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 2: It's that energy multiplied by Yeah, went to West Point,

794
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,320
which is among the hardest colleges to get into in

795
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,000
the nation, became an officer, and is he is a

796
00:45:03,079 --> 00:45:03,639
metal of honor?

797
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,679
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, because he's wearing that and you're talking sure, yeah,

798
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:08,079
I'm sure.

799
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: Not only did he do all the things in high school,

800
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,079
but he kept doing that.

801
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 1: He just kept succeeding. He kept succeeding it like the

802
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,719
hardest wall and then fell off a cliff and then drowned.

803
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,559
Speaker 2: Well, because he ventured into the realm of gods.

804
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he he got too big for his breeches

805
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:27,920
and then he took this serum.

806
00:45:29,199 --> 00:45:31,199
Speaker 2: He well, he wasn't too big for his breeches. The

807
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,880
problem was he they wanted him to join these gods. Yeah,

808
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,559
that's true, where he could compete in the realm of

809
00:45:38,679 --> 00:45:44,599
mortals as a you know, god among men and Achilles type, right. Yeah,

810
00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:47,719
but then all of a sudden he's up against Thor

811
00:45:48,159 --> 00:45:49,159
or Steve.

812
00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: Which we do see in real life when someone is

813
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:57,800
really popular or successful in a small version of whatever

814
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,639
they're doing, like they fish, little pawnshit.

815
00:46:00,119 --> 00:46:04,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where he's at because he's become the big

816
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,320
fish in each of these ponds that he's been. He's

817
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:12,760
always been too big for something until he started venturing

818
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,559
into this realm of the Avengers where these people are

819
00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:18,840
boosted to levels that he can't compete with. So he

820
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,800
gets so jealous and angry and stuck that all his

821
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,639
trauma from all the things that he dealt with start

822
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,559
impacting him, and his ability to regulate, a control and

823
00:46:28,639 --> 00:46:36,519
be that completely restricted, focused person he is got taken

824
00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:40,000
from him, ripped, and now he has no armor to

825
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:41,559
deal with all his wounds.

826
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,519
Speaker 1: Bad combo. And then I'm sure the stuff with his

827
00:46:45,599 --> 00:46:49,079
home life, well, when he's stuck, like we said, but

828
00:46:49,159 --> 00:46:53,519
also to have had a kid at that moment, you

829
00:46:53,559 --> 00:46:56,679
know what I mean, where he's just not available, and

830
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,320
then she probably just wants him to show up as

831
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,280
a partner, and I'm sure he wants understanding from her

832
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,639
about where he's at, but there's not time or room

833
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:08,639
for that because they just had a kid. So it's

834
00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:11,239
this horrible situation.

835
00:47:11,639 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: Right, And the thing that is usually true about that

836
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,360
guy is that he's usually kind of a prick m hmm.

837
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:25,599
And Walker is clearly ugh an intolerable, self aggrandizing prick.

838
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,400
But now others aren't seeing him that way, in the

839
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,079
way that he's used to seeing them and used to

840
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:36,280
running his shit, and now none of it works. So

841
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,079
it becomes his deep seated need for that to work again,

842
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,840
and he just keeps trying to prove it. Prove it,

843
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,280
prove it, prove it, prove it, prove it by going, fine,

844
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:45,840
I can't trust any of you, none of you will

845
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,159
get it done. I'll just do it myself and fuck

846
00:47:48,199 --> 00:47:48,719
it all up.

847
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, he can't shut the fuck he can't. Oh my god,

848
00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:54,920
Like when they're in that tower, well, well no, when

849
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,559
they're in the elevator shaft and he does that thing

850
00:47:57,599 --> 00:47:58,800
that could have killed them, But he's like, but it

851
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,320
we're done, it's like up. But that's such a good

852
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,000
example of that. Oh that'd be the high school guy. Yeah,

853
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,639
see it worked out, it was fine, the big deal.

854
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,119
But did you die? Yeah, exactly. Something that I wrote

855
00:48:14,119 --> 00:48:16,840
down about about John is that he can't be honest

856
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,599
with himself yet. Oh hell no, he's not in a

857
00:48:20,639 --> 00:48:24,079
place where that's even something that he can think about.

858
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,960
He's so stuck in the narrative that's been created about

859
00:48:28,039 --> 00:48:32,119
him to the world that he can't He just can't

860
00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:34,360
fucking see out. And so a person like him can't

861
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,320
get help because they won't admit getting to themselves that

862
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,679
they need help. Yeah. Like John Walker would have to

863
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:42,480
be mandated to.

864
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,559
Speaker 2: Treatment and he still wouldn't be honest, and he still.

865
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,760
Speaker 1: Wouldn't be honest. He'd be like, so you're telling that

866
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,679
your wife? Well, I mean, I mean it's just finally

867
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:52,440
like he would just like Spinner, like you would just

868
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,119
be chasing him around. Yeah.

869
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: I think the only one who really clocks him is Ava,

870
00:48:58,519 --> 00:49:01,280
and just because she does not give off fuck who

871
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:01,760
he is.

872
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,679
Speaker 1: He hates when he's in that scene in the beginning

873
00:49:05,039 --> 00:49:08,360
when he's trying to be like the big Biggahona in

874
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,320
the room when they're trying to escape, and like Ava

875
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,039
and Yolena like just laugh in his face.

876
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:16,559
Speaker 2: Ohyeba particularly doesn't give a fuck because she's British and

877
00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:22,639
she can literally walk through walls. Can she just does

878
00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,960
not care about anything that he's saying, Like whatever you're

879
00:49:26,119 --> 00:49:29,280
talking about, I I don't.

880
00:49:29,039 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: Have time for him, Like is that gonna help us

881
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,679
get out of here? No, so shut up. Even that moment,

882
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,320
that kind of odd moment in the movie where he

883
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,840
points out this cactus they can eat. It's a weird moment,

884
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,039
but I could I see that though from this as

885
00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:44,960
we're talking about him, like that is a moment where

886
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,760
the story is showing us like he has to show

887
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,599
his worth all the time. Yeah I know this thing,

888
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,159
Yeah you can eat it. Aren't you happy? Aren't like

889
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,480
you're welcome? Then he has to immediately correct one of

890
00:49:57,559 --> 00:50:00,199
them right after about doctor Phil. It's like, shut up up.

891
00:50:00,679 --> 00:50:03,679
He cannot shut the book up. And it's so interesting

892
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,920
how once they find out that his wife and his

893
00:50:06,039 --> 00:50:11,039
kid left him, that that takes all the wind out

894
00:50:11,079 --> 00:50:13,840
of his sails, and like he stops, he kind of

895
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,960
stops being a prick he stops being much of anything. Yeah,

896
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,840
he kind of just shuts the fuck down and is like, Okay,

897
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,039
well now everyone knows like my dirty secret, and I

898
00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:27,280
can't really live in the reality where that's true.

899
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 2: Right, Because John is the Pelatin. He's the Pelatin. He's

900
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,960
the white Knight who's committed. And he fell.

901
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: He fell.

902
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:43,599
Speaker 2: He is now an oath breaker. He broke the promises

903
00:50:43,639 --> 00:50:47,039
in the most public way. He became this symbol. He

904
00:50:47,079 --> 00:50:48,639
became everything.

905
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,119
Speaker 1: Like, that's his worst namemare is the think pieces he's reading.

906
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:56,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, truly, And why he struggles so hard is because

907
00:50:56,679 --> 00:50:59,800
his identity is formed around being the opposite of that.

908
00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. And he lost his best friend, his wife's left him,

909
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,559
his best friend's dead. Yeah, that's also true. He is

910
00:51:06,639 --> 00:51:10,239
nothing grounding star or something wasn't his battle star.

911
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,599
Speaker 2: It's an interesting dynamic to watch.

912
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:13,559
Speaker 1: John is.

913
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 2: Closest to Alexi for but.

914
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:23,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, yeah, at vastly different points of acceptance

915
00:51:23,119 --> 00:51:28,719
of it, because Alexi's government like crumbled. Well, here's the thing.

916
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:34,159
Steve is an anomaly. Steve is this shiny miracle person, yeah,

917
00:51:34,199 --> 00:51:37,360
who just happens to be innately good. And the serum

918
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,920
makes me even better, Whereas I think Walker and Alexi

919
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:45,239
are what an actual real life version of Captain America is. Yeah,

920
00:51:46,039 --> 00:51:48,119
like a shiny guy who's too wrapped up in being

921
00:51:48,159 --> 00:51:51,880
shiny and doesn't know how to be anyone but shiny.

922
00:51:52,679 --> 00:51:57,079
Speaker 2: But will eventually fail because the demands are too great. Yeah,

923
00:51:57,119 --> 00:51:59,360
and the things that are propping you up the world

924
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,320
will find a way to crack them and knock them

925
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:06,239
out from under you. Only Steve could have stood up

926
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,480
through that, because that's why he's Steve, and you can

927
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:08,760
give a.

928
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: Shit about that stuff, Like during like the nomad years,

929
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,880
he went off the grid, yeah and did his own thing,

930
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,800
Like he's not worried about how he's perceived. The way

931
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,960
that these two guys are driven by the way they're perceived, right,

932
00:52:23,519 --> 00:52:26,960
which also is probably just a side effect or consequence

933
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:31,239
of the fact that, like, Steve was a little guy,

934
00:52:32,079 --> 00:52:35,000
you know, a puny little guy before he got the serum,

935
00:52:35,159 --> 00:52:37,280
so his identity had nothing to do with that.

936
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 2: Stuff, correct, Whereas Walker was quick to tell us that

937
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,239
he was a three time All American quarterback.

938
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: Whatever he was. They start all telling stories from their childhoods.

939
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,280
They're like, oh, okay, so we're all telling each other

940
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,840
about the sports who played his kids, which I thought

941
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,960
was such a good retort. Yeah.

942
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,679
Speaker 2: Same, But it's clear where his identity. He is very

943
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,639
much a fallen palette and that's what he is, Like

944
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,159
I was all of these things and I want it

945
00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:08,440
all back, and it's it's gone. Whereas you know, you

946
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,360
look at all the anger and things that he shows.

947
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,440
You see Alexei who is just embraced that he's your

948
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,199
barbarian FYI that he just goes, Yeah, I just get

949
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:21,960
really mad and start breaking shit. That's my thing. Once

950
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,559
we hit that point that it's time for that to happen,

951
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,760
I'm your man, Like you need somebody to do the

952
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,559
dumb strong thing, got it in a tracksuit.

953
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 1: What I love about this movie is how well written

954
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,239
all the characters are and realistic because at the end

955
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,840
of the movie, he's still this guy. Yeah, like when

956
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,320
he's then we're in that barret. I can't remember exactly

957
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:46,760
what it says, but he still said something where I

958
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,280
was like, shut the fuck up, Like he's still that

959
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,800
guy that if you were bopping around the Adventures Tower

960
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:53,079
and he was the only one in the room, I'd

961
00:53:53,079 --> 00:53:56,159
be like, oh before he noticed me and then they'll

962
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,519
come back later, right, he is your best fighter.

963
00:54:00,159 --> 00:54:02,039
Speaker 2: He is your best fighter, there's no question.

964
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,559
Speaker 1: But I'm trying to hear him talk.

965
00:54:06,039 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 2: He has no charisma, and he keeps trying to have

966
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:11,239
the charisma and be like, Oh.

967
00:54:11,039 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: There's nothing worse than a guy who thinks he's charming

968
00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:21,719
who isn't, especially if they're conventionally attractive. Oh, and it

969
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,400
is kind of why A Russell plays him so well. Yeah,

970
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,800
he really does. And I'm like, I wonder if his

971
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,480
experience as being Kurt Russell's son, being around probably guys

972
00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:36,760
like this his whole life, and just being this guy

973
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,039
like too. He's so good at being this guy that

974
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,840
I want to punch him in the Free book. It's

975
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:48,199
like he's it's so well done. Here's a professional hockey player.

976
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,880
Oh okay, there you go. So yes, oh yeah, before

977
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,400
he got injured and then he became an actor. So

978
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,239
so he's been around a lot of this guy. He's

979
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,360
been this guy. Yeah, that's true.

980
00:54:59,559 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 2: I almost guarantee he's been this guy, except that he

981
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:07,360
had some substantial Hollywood pull to have another career. But

982
00:55:07,679 --> 00:55:10,679
the number of guys that he's channeling that would have

983
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,400
been that guy that.

984
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 1: Make the NHL.

985
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 2: It's a perfect casting because guys that make it to

986
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,519
that point are all that guy somewhere. You think about

987
00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:23,119
the odds of making it to be one of twenty

988
00:55:23,159 --> 00:55:28,400
guys on thirty teams out of all those people whose

989
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,960
parents have been pushing them and going to all those tournaments,

990
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,559
and there's one kid that keeps beating everybody's ass. But

991
00:55:34,679 --> 00:55:39,079
now everybody on the team is that kid, and there's

992
00:55:39,079 --> 00:55:43,159
still guys who are better than you. That's what pro

993
00:55:43,159 --> 00:55:46,880
sports is. These kids who have been kicking everybody's ass

994
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,159
everywhere up and down the field or the ice or

995
00:55:49,199 --> 00:55:53,159
whatever for years, all of a sudden get smaller and

996
00:55:53,199 --> 00:55:56,800
smaller and smaller groups. So they suddenly realize like, oh

997
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,599
there's some very very big fish here, and oh shit,

998
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,119
those in football a cal him like the welcome to

999
00:56:04,119 --> 00:56:07,800
the NFL moment, like oh, I've been I'm an All

1000
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,920
American in college and then here comes the all pro

1001
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,000
the best of the best, that just kicks the living

1002
00:56:14,039 --> 00:56:15,559
shit out of them in the first play, and they.

1003
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 1: Go, what just happened?

1004
00:56:18,079 --> 00:56:22,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's he would have seen that. Why Russell would

1005
00:56:22,159 --> 00:56:24,360
have seen that, because he lived it. He was that

1006
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,719
guy to make it to that room with those guys

1007
00:56:27,199 --> 00:56:29,519
and still got his ass beat and then got hurt

1008
00:56:29,639 --> 00:56:31,960
and lost it. Think about what that it would all

1009
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,039
mean and how well that works itself into John Walker. Yeah, truly,

1010
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:37,679
because now you can't play.

1011
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a whole other that's a whole other ball.

1012
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,320
If we're going to wax, Yeah for sure. But a

1013
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,599
guy like Walker, when it comes to therapy and getting

1014
00:56:48,639 --> 00:56:51,760
out of this stuck place like truly his own worst enemy,

1015
00:56:52,079 --> 00:56:54,639
because what he needs to acknowledge is what's the hardest

1016
00:56:54,639 --> 00:56:56,079
for him to admit. It's like he's stuck at the

1017
00:56:56,079 --> 00:56:56,519
start point.

1018
00:56:56,599 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing he has to acknowledge first is that

1019
00:56:58,480 --> 00:56:59,280
he's fallible.

1020
00:56:59,639 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, the end, And that's that's all I not.

1021
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:11,000
That's tough stuff. It is because I think Alexi knows

1022
00:57:11,039 --> 00:57:13,960
he's a piece of shit, yeah, and probably would say

1023
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,400
every once in a while, I know a piece of shit,

1024
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,960
you know what I mean? But I think Walker would

1025
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,800
be like, I'm not a pizzait until his like head exploded. Yeah,

1026
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,280
basically airs heart all the rest.

1027
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 2: You just keep sucking and fucking out all the plans

1028
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:29,880
that I would have You guys didn't fuck up everything

1029
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:31,119
that I did, it'd be fine.

1030
00:57:31,239 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: He's the kind of guy, well you can't get drunk anymore.

1031
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:34,760
He's got the serum because he's the kind of guy

1032
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,639
that would get ship faced on like Thanksgiving Eve and

1033
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,320
be like, I know him, a piece of shit, my

1034
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:45,039
wife looking eats me like and then he'd finally have feelings,

1035
00:57:45,039 --> 00:57:47,559
but the next day he'd be like, I blacked outlaws

1036
00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:52,199
and I brough. I don't even know what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah,

1037
00:57:53,519 --> 00:57:57,760
anything more I want to say about I don't think so.

1038
00:57:58,039 --> 00:58:00,719
I think that's it. I think we should take another

1039
00:58:00,719 --> 00:58:04,199
break here. And now we're going to very briefly talk

1040
00:58:04,239 --> 00:58:07,360
about the character known as Ghost, but her real name

1041
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,000
is Ava. Mostly just what I wanted to say about

1042
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:14,039
her is I barely remember her from the other movie

1043
00:58:14,119 --> 00:58:17,559
she was in the character, and I think one of

1044
00:58:17,599 --> 00:58:20,599
the reasons why she fits in the group is because

1045
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,280
she's had some very similar experiences to Bucky, Elena, and

1046
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,039
maybe even kind of John.

1047
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 3: Well.

1048
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,039
Speaker 1: She's in the situation where the people that we're supposed

1049
00:58:31,039 --> 00:58:33,880
to because her dad, right, the people that were supposed

1050
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:35,159
to take care of her. I know her a little

1051
00:58:35,159 --> 00:58:36,639
about her story, but people are supposed to take care

1052
00:58:36,679 --> 00:58:38,239
of her are the ones who experimented on her.

1053
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 2: You'd have to watch the I think second least popular

1054
00:58:42,079 --> 00:58:44,039
movies she I think she was only an ant man

1055
00:58:44,079 --> 00:58:44,679
in The Wasp.

1056
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think I saw that one, which I

1057
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:48,239
don't know who she is.

1058
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,199
Speaker 2: I don't think she's this movie. I don't even think

1059
00:58:50,239 --> 00:58:54,000
she was in Quantum Mania. Oh, okay, because Yellowjacket was

1060
00:58:54,039 --> 00:58:55,440
the villain in the first one.

1061
00:58:55,559 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 1: Haven't seen that one either. Yeah, Man and man it's funny.

1062
00:58:59,199 --> 00:59:01,800
It's yeah, I don't find it Aman that funny. Me

1063
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,280
neither A man's funny. I was surprised. Amen's not for me.

1064
00:59:05,519 --> 00:59:08,239
That's a better way to say. I probably it's it's

1065
00:59:08,239 --> 00:59:12,440
Paul Rudd being Paul Rudd. Yeah. So mostly, just what

1066
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,440
I wanted to say is that she fits in the

1067
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:19,719
group easily because she's had similar experiences. And that's a

1068
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:21,800
part of why, even though she seems like a weird

1069
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,599
character to bring in in some ways that I think

1070
00:59:24,639 --> 00:59:29,360
it works that she gets it and I think she's

1071
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:33,280
someone that'll keep fitting into the story too. Yeah, as

1072
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,239
part of the Avengers, I'm interested to see where she'll

1073
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,079
go and develop as a character. I'm glad we touch

1074
00:59:38,159 --> 00:59:40,480
upon her. But yeah, she is a character that just

1075
00:59:40,559 --> 00:59:44,159
kind of plays the tough in a lot of ways. Yeah,

1076
00:59:44,199 --> 00:59:48,679
And so we don't get a lot of introspection into her, Yeah,

1077
00:59:49,079 --> 00:59:50,559
even though she is in the whole movie.

1078
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:57,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's She's the one who's acknowledging fully how fucking

1079
00:59:57,519 --> 01:00:00,440
weird her life is and how different she is, and

1080
01:00:03,119 --> 01:00:07,360
is sort of something I think the others start to

1081
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,400
look up to. She's embracing what makes her so strange

1082
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:16,400
because she needs her suit to keep herself, like her

1083
01:00:16,519 --> 01:00:20,119
entire body together, Otherwise her cells will break apart and

1084
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:24,559
she'll just dissipate into nothing. That's kind of her curse.

1085
01:00:24,639 --> 01:00:27,960
That suit that she's in keeps her body together. Something

1086
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,480
went wrong with her the pin particles for her. So

1087
01:00:31,559 --> 01:00:35,519
if she loses that suit, that's why the sound destabilizes

1088
01:00:35,559 --> 01:00:40,000
her so much, because it, yess not good.

1089
01:00:41,239 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 3: Yes.

1090
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:47,599
Speaker 2: So she's simultaneously the most comfortable with herself and the

1091
01:00:47,639 --> 01:00:48,400
most vulnerable.

1092
01:00:48,559 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, which also I think could be a metaphor for

1093
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,920
the fact that she's also the only person of color

1094
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:59,480
right on the team, Yeah, which I think could. I

1095
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,480
don't know if that means anything in the casting or

1096
01:01:01,519 --> 01:01:05,679
the storytelling, but that she's the least relying on them,

1097
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:07,320
she's the most like, I'm gonna do my own thing,

1098
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,320
and you're right, like she's the most guarded. Understandably so,

1099
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,920
and also because yeah, she is the strangest in terms

1100
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:23,000
of her abilities, Like she can't really hide them the

1101
01:01:23,039 --> 01:01:26,880
way that everyone else could. She can't pass as a

1102
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:27,559
regular person.

1103
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,199
Speaker 2: Nope, but she can be invisible.

1104
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is so. I mean, I'm glad they all

1105
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:36,800
have each other. Now, I know me too.

1106
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 2: You have the opportunity to dunk on that, Brittany. Oh no,

1107
01:01:43,119 --> 01:01:47,239
you're going through like recognizing you have an actor of color. Yeah,

1108
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:51,760
who can be invisible vanish?

1109
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,159
Speaker 1: Oh, to take the metaphor further in that, the only

1110
01:01:55,199 --> 01:02:00,239
way she's safest is to go unnoticed. Oh oh okay,

1111
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,920
it makes sense. That makes sense. Like that's the closest

1112
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:07,639
she can get to passing is become invisible. Yeah, and

1113
01:02:08,039 --> 01:02:11,760
stay off the radar. Yeah. Thanks.

1114
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 2: But the more she owns herself, the more the serious

1115
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:18,719
problems she can solve.

1116
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 1: They would be dead. Oh yeah, many times over. She

1117
01:02:22,119 --> 01:02:25,159
really comes and clutch multiple times, which is telling. I think,

1118
01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:28,960
not to be corny, but we all want to be

1119
01:02:29,039 --> 01:02:33,159
part of a community and so she finally gets this

1120
01:02:33,239 --> 01:02:36,400
opportunity to be part of a team, and even though

1121
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,519
she wants to pretend like she doesn't want to do that, she.

1122
01:02:39,679 --> 01:02:43,199
Speaker 3: Keeps showing up she could when she could have.

1123
01:02:43,159 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: Just saved her own self, and luckily she doesn't. Luckily

1124
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:53,280
she doesn't get punished for that. With Walker, Yeah, she

1125
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,679
raised a lot of pranks on him. That's what I

1126
01:02:55,679 --> 01:02:57,480
would do if I was her, I was invisible with

1127
01:02:57,519 --> 01:03:01,639
that turnaround. I mean, there's no way with her character that.

1128
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,079
Speaker 2: At some point he goes to the bathroom and she

1129
01:03:04,199 --> 01:03:08,639
just pops up, and it's like wow, even more disappointing

1130
01:03:09,519 --> 01:03:10,239
someone like him.

1131
01:03:10,239 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: What you do is you move his toothbrush all the time.

1132
01:03:12,519 --> 01:03:15,159
You don't do anything to it, but you move it

1133
01:03:15,199 --> 01:03:17,480
a lot, so you can't ever trust it, you know,

1134
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:22,199
small things. Just watched him, he'll know he's like slowly

1135
01:03:22,239 --> 01:03:29,599
going insane. Yeah, Brush, I think she's too forward for it.

1136
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:34,719
I think she would want him to know was her pick.

1137
01:03:35,679 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 2: That's true, but she also is very dedicated, and she

1138
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,920
does go against her instincts to disappear and keeps showing

1139
01:03:42,039 --> 01:03:44,199
back up at great risk to herself.

1140
01:03:45,639 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: Just pretty impressive.

1141
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,559
Speaker 2: She must be committed and feeling something for make her

1142
01:03:49,599 --> 01:03:51,719
do that, because she could have just hopped in that

1143
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:56,280
truck and been like deuces, drove the truck thirty feet

1144
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,199
to where people weren't looking anymore, hopped out and turn

1145
01:03:59,239 --> 01:04:00,000
a visible disappear.

1146
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, gone into the night, because what this movie is

1147
01:04:03,199 --> 01:04:05,320
really about is a bunch of lonely people.

1148
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 2: Finding a family. Yeah, because humans are pack animals.

1149
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I guess on that note, we can take

1150
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:14,800
another break here and talk about Bob. All right, So

1151
01:04:15,639 --> 01:04:21,639
Bob slash the century century Void Central three all three,

1152
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:24,280
all three, I would say, our boy Bob, which we

1153
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,840
haven't even referenced Bob yet, which is kind of wild

1154
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:33,599
because he is the main antagonist. Ish, Yeah, Valentina is

1155
01:04:33,599 --> 01:04:38,840
the main antagonist. But yeah, like Bob is just I mean,

1156
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,159
I guess he is bipolar disorder. They do have the

1157
01:04:41,199 --> 01:04:42,960
job of the movie I think of never officially giving

1158
01:04:43,039 --> 01:04:47,880
him any diagnosis, maybe out of caution, but they describe bipolar.

1159
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,480
They do describe bipolar. But I think that he has

1160
01:04:53,559 --> 01:04:58,280
complex PTSD mm hmm with psychotic features.

1161
01:04:58,679 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 2: Okay, and he formed some pretty significant parts.

1162
01:05:03,679 --> 01:05:06,039
Speaker 1: Well yeah, he definitely dissociates. Like they do make a

1163
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:08,800
point of he loses time for his things.

1164
01:05:09,559 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think they Yes, they correct. They reference

1165
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:18,840
things that could very well point to a polar disorder,

1166
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:23,679
with being dichotomous and having kind of different versions of himself.

1167
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:26,960
But I think the more we learn about his history,

1168
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,320
the more it makes sense that we're looking at complex

1169
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:35,440
PTSD or dissociative identity disorder, then we're looking at bipolar disorder.

1170
01:05:35,559 --> 01:05:37,639
Speaker 1: He may have both. I think the only thing that

1171
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:42,000
makes me still think about bipolar is the delusions of

1172
01:05:42,039 --> 01:05:45,679
grandeur that gets talked about pretty on the nose.

1173
01:05:46,599 --> 01:05:51,199
Speaker 2: I think he has more than one or diagnostic thing

1174
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:56,119
going on. Something is causing those delusions of grandeur. But

1175
01:05:56,199 --> 01:05:59,679
also we see quite clearly that he would have had

1176
01:05:59,719 --> 01:06:05,280
to create alternate worlds to survive the one he was in,

1177
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:07,559
much like Moonnight does.

1178
01:06:09,519 --> 01:06:13,119
Speaker 3: And even though that was a bit flawed, hugely flawed,

1179
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:20,119
hugely anyway, go on looking.

1180
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:25,719
Speaker 2: At the uh looking at there. The diagnosive picture of

1181
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:29,920
Bob is that it's I think it's deliberately unclear.

1182
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: As to what it is. I think they did that

1183
01:06:31,519 --> 01:06:32,480
on purpose.

1184
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:36,599
Speaker 2: Because they don't want to stigmatize something that's real. But yes,

1185
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:40,440
you see this investment in an identity of version that

1186
01:06:40,519 --> 01:06:42,280
just wants to be good enough. He just wants to

1187
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:44,840
be happy, and he takes to that like he does

1188
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:45,480
a drug.

1189
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I guess we can say like Bob's introduced

1190
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:52,960
as just a regular guy ish who's down on his

1191
01:06:53,079 --> 01:06:56,119
luck or has had really trouble being a functioning adult

1192
01:06:56,599 --> 01:07:00,199
due to mental health symptoms at which lead to drug.

1193
01:07:00,519 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 2: But the deeper we go, the more we learn the

1194
01:07:03,599 --> 01:07:08,239
layers and depths of his trauma and that those things

1195
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:13,760
were formed by things hurting him, yes, and him perpetually

1196
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,880
not having his needs met, which, to Hannah's point, is

1197
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:21,000
house hep just deforms. I don't think bipolar would remotely

1198
01:07:21,519 --> 01:07:25,199
cover it alone. Is it there and depicted?

1199
01:07:25,239 --> 01:07:25,559
Speaker 1: Sure?

1200
01:07:25,719 --> 01:07:30,519
Speaker 2: But I would take some serious convincing.

1201
01:07:30,119 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 1: To believe in that one. Yeah, because they think they

1202
01:07:32,559 --> 01:07:34,880
do that thing we've talked about on the show many times,

1203
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:38,159
which is they give him kind of he gets kind

1204
01:07:38,159 --> 01:07:42,599
of like mental health soup diagnosings, like symptoms where they

1205
01:07:42,599 --> 01:07:45,119
talk about high highs and low lows and illusion of grandeur,

1206
01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:50,039
but then also dissociation and this trauma piece. It's this

1207
01:07:50,159 --> 01:07:54,239
kind of yeah, like a gaggle of symptoms where if

1208
01:07:54,239 --> 01:07:57,320
he's like a real life person. He'd be someone that

1209
01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,519
you'd have to like work with for a while to

1210
01:07:59,599 --> 01:08:01,880
kind of get real sense of like what's happening where

1211
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,000
and from what? Yeah?

1212
01:08:05,159 --> 01:08:09,719
Speaker 2: Right, And working with people's cphisd is like that, because

1213
01:08:11,079 --> 01:08:14,000
what it was is attachment trauma that formed by their

1214
01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:17,199
knees not getting met repeatedly, which led to the drug

1215
01:08:17,319 --> 01:08:21,119
use to escape the feelings created by the chronic abuse

1216
01:08:21,239 --> 01:08:24,640
and feeling of being trapped and stuck, which led to

1217
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:29,119
more traumatic experiences, which led to more negative self identity,

1218
01:08:29,159 --> 01:08:32,720
which leads to more parts forming to tolerate them, but

1219
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:36,399
the other parts that formed in the first place still existing,

1220
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,640
and eventually they collide and crash, and this person feels

1221
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,720
like they let themselves down all the time and don't

1222
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:46,720
even trust themselves. Working with someone like Bob, you're gonna

1223
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,000
get that. And it was acted beautifully.

1224
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then also with considering the fact that he

1225
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,399
was doing drugs like meth, which are not a joke,

1226
01:08:55,279 --> 01:09:00,199
that would also influence your diagnostic assessment of him him

1227
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,640
Like when he's talking about this mood stuff, how much

1228
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,359
is this correlating to substance use? What is he actually

1229
01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:09,199
experiencing when he's clean, has he been clean long enough

1230
01:09:09,199 --> 01:09:13,199
to know, like, is his mood happening regardless of substance

1231
01:09:13,279 --> 01:09:17,119
use or in like correlation with substance use, Like it's

1232
01:09:17,119 --> 01:09:19,800
a lot of stuff you have, Yeah, yeah, like a

1233
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,960
lot of stuff you'd have to peace out.

1234
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 2: It takes a long time to get a clear diagnostic

1235
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:26,279
picture and something.

1236
01:09:26,119 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 1: Like Bob, Yeah, for sure, because of the presentation, it's

1237
01:09:31,039 --> 01:09:34,960
so layered. It's just a layered experience, and depending on

1238
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:38,199
whatever his symptoms are at the time, is kind of

1239
01:09:38,199 --> 01:09:40,279
what you have to go with until you find out

1240
01:09:40,319 --> 01:09:43,800
more about him. He's until he's able to open up

1241
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:47,600
more doors for you, which could take some time, and

1242
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,319
you never know what's room you're going to get. Yeah, well,

1243
01:09:50,359 --> 01:09:54,199
if him is also this x factor of being a

1244
01:09:54,439 --> 01:10:01,039
labrata that's given these crazy powers and how much I

1245
01:10:01,079 --> 01:10:03,359
don't even know how much that could eventually be influencing

1246
01:10:03,399 --> 01:10:06,880
his psychology too, like his literal brain immensely truly, and

1247
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:11,640
how it might be blowing up these characteristics of what

1248
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,720
he's doing, which obviously does because that's the point of

1249
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:18,720
this movie, yes, is that he brings everybody into the

1250
01:10:19,319 --> 01:10:21,319
how his brain's been pieced.

1251
01:10:21,079 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 2: Up when you can't factor out Valentina correctly clocking him.

1252
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,520
Speaker 1: Ugh, she's such she's so disgusting. Buckle up, kids, I'm

1253
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,800
about to use this word. She is such a cunt.

1254
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:40,640
And I don't use that word a lot professionally, truly.

1255
01:10:41,399 --> 01:10:44,960
But the scene, maybe that's not the DSM being a cunt.

1256
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:49,520
Maybe for Valentino we would create it. But the scene

1257
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:52,520
where she is putting on that shawl or thing so

1258
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,399
that she can look more maternal, so she can fuck

1259
01:10:55,439 --> 01:11:00,399
with him. Oh, never been so pissed off at a

1260
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:01,560
character in one of these movies.

1261
01:11:02,039 --> 01:11:04,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's where you get the ick, because she

1262
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:09,159
knew exactly what to do to bring sentry out of him.

1263
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1264
01:11:11,039 --> 01:11:14,760
Speaker 2: I don't think she knew about the void, no, but

1265
01:11:15,039 --> 01:11:23,039
she knew she had either wimpy little like I'm just bob,

1266
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:28,920
I'm here, which isn't that useful to her, but a

1267
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:33,960
good boy that now, that's very useful, A good boy

1268
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:37,199
who's a god, very very useful.

1269
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and her and her hubris to think that she

1270
01:11:40,399 --> 01:11:43,560
could contain that, and that if she couldn't, she could

1271
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:44,720
easily neuter it.

1272
01:11:45,119 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 2: Of course, because she's Amanda Waller. This is a very

1273
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,680
very obvious Marvel rip of I mean, they do it

1274
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:56,760
to each other all the time, but this is a

1275
01:11:56,880 --> 01:11:59,000
very obvious Marvel rip of Suicide Squad.

1276
01:12:00,079 --> 01:12:05,239
Speaker 1: Better than those movies, way better. Those movies are absolute garbage.

1277
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:09,720
The second one hilarious. I'm not a James Gun. I'm

1278
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:14,079
not a James Gun Gurley. Yeah, so yeah, it was

1279
01:12:14,159 --> 01:12:17,239
neither of was this is what I wanted Suicide Squad

1280
01:12:17,319 --> 01:12:18,880
to be. Yeah, this movie.

1281
01:12:19,279 --> 01:12:23,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you encounter them, that's typically what they are,

1282
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:28,520
not this emotionally intelligent. But it's way way better than

1283
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:33,319
that bag of fucking garbage that was the first one.

1284
01:12:33,359 --> 01:12:35,319
Speaker 1: We won't discuss that as that is.

1285
01:12:35,239 --> 01:12:40,199
Speaker 2: In the wrong universe for the moment. Yeah enough, the

1286
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:45,079
Batsman universe as it were. Ye, but that one was

1287
01:12:45,199 --> 01:12:48,960
pure trash. The second one was mostly the lampoon the

1288
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:53,159
living fuck out of the first one. Mm hmm, And

1289
01:12:53,199 --> 01:12:56,119
it was much better. But then it was randomly a

1290
01:12:56,159 --> 01:12:58,800
Kaiju movie, which is where it lost me of going

1291
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:04,640
like why. I think the answer to it was because, yeah,

1292
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:07,640
where this one was on a set mission the whole

1293
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,239
time to be an emotionally intelligent film and tell a

1294
01:13:10,279 --> 01:13:13,720
story that corrects a bunch of bullshit in a narrative.

1295
01:13:14,359 --> 01:13:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, really well, in opposition to what you just said,

1296
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:23,359
a Kaiju movie, this movie is purposely small, right. The villain,

1297
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:27,319
the quote unquote villain is like small in context, and

1298
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:31,199
the way that it gets resolved is like a very grounded,

1299
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:39,520
contained thing. There isn't a goofy villain starfish or like

1300
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:41,840
even in that New Captain America, that dude with that

1301
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:45,760
brain head. Yeah, you know what I mean, Like, there

1302
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:47,800
wasn't anything like that. Like even the way that void

1303
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:52,159
is shown was so cool and eerie. Yeah, just being

1304
01:13:52,199 --> 01:13:56,800
like blackness, like true nothingness, except for like his eyes

1305
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:59,439
and some names his teeth. Yeah, because really what the

1306
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:04,079
void is a shame and hopelessness. It is like depression

1307
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:08,720
personified and just sucking up everything, which is the how

1308
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,760
the like we were saying in the beginning, Yolena talks

1309
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:14,800
about the void and that's how she describes the depression

1310
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:17,079
that she's going through as a result of her trauma.

1311
01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:20,279
And then she links up with Bob, that's what they

1312
01:14:20,279 --> 01:14:23,560
have in common, that's where she finds connection with him.

1313
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:28,560
And so this is just also a personification of what

1314
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:34,119
if your sad as the lowest point became literally your

1315
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:39,520
not only your identity, but a like super villain. What

1316
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:43,279
if it was empowered? What if it won? And how

1317
01:14:43,279 --> 01:14:45,720
it and the idea that it just pulls everyone in

1318
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:51,720
is when we talk about like suicidality, that what's the

1319
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:55,640
point of being here, Let's just go away and why

1320
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:59,800
are we even trying? Just like true hopelessness, and also

1321
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:02,640
may be feeling like doing everybody a favor by just

1322
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:06,520
push pushing them out of existence and not realizing that.

1323
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:08,720
I mean, obviously they weren't push out of existence. They

1324
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:12,479
were blasted into his void space to live all the

1325
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:17,520
worst memories out. But it truly is like mental health personified.

1326
01:15:18,199 --> 01:15:22,399
Speaker 2: Which is what made it so incredibly powerful and effective,

1327
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:27,960
is that we all know we all have rooms inside

1328
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:32,560
of our heads where things live, and some of them

1329
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:34,520
we have access to and some of them we do not.

1330
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:37,560
But there are things that can come forth into the

1331
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:40,680
world and find them for you.

1332
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:43,199
Speaker 1: Well, what did you guys think about the Rooms? I

1333
01:15:43,199 --> 01:15:49,960
thought the rooms were such a cool visualization of trauma.

1334
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:54,039
I really thought that it was a very good example

1335
01:15:54,399 --> 01:15:58,720
of what people who have a lot of trauma experience.

1336
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:04,039
It's often replaying the worst moments of their life. It

1337
01:16:04,119 --> 01:16:08,439
is often experiencing the same scenario. It is often a

1338
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:11,319
recurring nightmare that they've had for most of their life

1339
01:16:11,359 --> 01:16:15,039
in some kind of way. And so I really felt

1340
01:16:15,079 --> 01:16:20,560
like the way that they showed how all of the

1341
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:25,039
energy in each room was kind of set up really

1342
01:16:25,079 --> 01:16:27,359
shows that that's really what it feels like for people

1343
01:16:27,399 --> 01:16:31,520
who have experienced that many traumatic things. And so I

1344
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:34,880
thought it was a really beautiful way to show not

1345
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:39,880
only what someone's experience can be like, but also how

1346
01:16:40,319 --> 01:16:43,439
there's just a door that just opens and now you're

1347
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:47,039
in it and people can get and that's a part

1348
01:16:47,039 --> 01:16:51,479
of why people lose time and experience dissociative identity disorder.

1349
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:54,720
That's a part of why people are so disconnected from

1350
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,439
themselves or whatever the case might be. Like, I thought

1351
01:16:57,479 --> 01:16:59,960
it did a really good job of showing also how

1352
01:17:00,119 --> 01:17:06,520
real and how vivid those traumatic experiences are, Yeah, if

1353
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:09,199
that makes sense. And we see it most with Yolena

1354
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:12,439
because she's the one that actually she's the one that

1355
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:16,640
we follow even more than Bob, Yeah, through those memories

1356
01:17:17,319 --> 01:17:22,279
and how she is trying to do something sweet, which

1357
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:24,600
is be compassionate to her younger self, like the scene

1358
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:28,399
where she holds her younger self's ears. I really love

1359
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:31,560
that scene and how much she's thinking about, like, I

1360
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:33,239
don't want you'd have to go through. This is such

1361
01:17:33,279 --> 01:17:37,560
a therapeutic, yeah, thing that she does taking care of

1362
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:40,920
your little self, which.

1363
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:44,239
Speaker 2: Is really beautifully done. And I think the only thing

1364
01:17:44,279 --> 01:17:46,640
I would build on to where Hannah was going with

1365
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:51,199
this because it's all right, is that the idea of

1366
01:17:51,199 --> 01:17:58,319
there being a what EMDR calls a touchstone. All the

1367
01:17:58,399 --> 01:18:04,319
rooms for Bob connect back to that floor beneath Bob

1368
01:18:04,399 --> 01:18:09,399
says sometimes aren't so bad. Yeah, but that one memory

1369
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:13,239
is trying to break through in the dining room or

1370
01:18:13,279 --> 01:18:16,880
living room, whatever it is. But yeah, yeah, that one,

1371
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,239
that's the one, that's the one.

1372
01:18:21,079 --> 01:18:24,439
Speaker 1: Well, you can see where it forms a lot of

1373
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:27,439
his core beliefs about himself, like where his mom says

1374
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:30,840
you're not a hero, Like no, his dad says you're

1375
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:32,119
not a hero, and then his mom says, you just

1376
01:18:32,159 --> 01:18:36,239
make things worse. Yes, when he tries to protect her.

1377
01:18:36,399 --> 01:18:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, And watching that spill over into everything, and

1378
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,640
even moments where he has glimmers that are the opposite

1379
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:52,439
of that that help him feel like he can do things.

1380
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:57,319
He still operates with the fear underneath that that he

1381
01:18:57,399 --> 01:19:00,920
in fact just makes it worse that he is helpless

1382
01:19:01,359 --> 01:19:04,640
and he makes it worse. He's not a hero, he's garbage.

1383
01:19:05,359 --> 01:19:09,279
That he formed that whole thing, and everything ties back

1384
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:13,520
to that no matter what, because that was real and

1385
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:17,359
you can't convince him that it wasn't real because it was.

1386
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,720
And understanding that that is what a touchstone is. That

1387
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:24,000
is its power, that it sits in there, and no

1388
01:19:24,039 --> 01:19:28,239
matter what you do, every fear you have is rooted

1389
01:19:28,279 --> 01:19:31,199
in that because that's the real fear, which.

1390
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:35,279
Speaker 1: Is then makes sense when you think back on the

1391
01:19:35,319 --> 01:19:38,840
first scenes of the movie, before we know really anything

1392
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:43,760
about him, how he keeps volunteering to be left behind

1393
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:46,880
and like I'll just get in the way. You should

1394
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,000
just leave me, because when we're introduced with his character,

1395
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:51,520
there's nothing we know yet about him where we'd be like,

1396
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,279
why would you just like volunteer to get fucked over?

1397
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:57,000
But now that we know, like watching the movie like

1398
01:19:57,000 --> 01:19:59,119
a second time, you get all this insight into like, oh,

1399
01:19:59,159 --> 01:20:02,039
because this is this is where his core beliefs are

1400
01:20:02,079 --> 01:20:05,000
just coming up to the front, and not just his

1401
01:20:05,159 --> 01:20:05,880
core beliefs.

1402
01:20:07,079 --> 01:20:15,399
Speaker 2: A proven validated experience by many things, proving it correct

1403
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:20,479
because the filter he has on it ties back to that.

1404
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:25,520
So it's the way he sees it. It's that plus awful.

1405
01:20:26,199 --> 01:20:29,000
It's really really powerful.

1406
01:20:29,239 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 1: And then unfortunately, in this situation, Yolena keeps validating that

1407
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:37,359
belief because she won't let him help and she's like,

1408
01:20:37,399 --> 01:20:39,279
just stay behind me, I'll take care of you, don't

1409
01:20:39,279 --> 01:20:44,319
get involved, don't make it worse. And so she's unfortunately

1410
01:20:45,359 --> 01:20:48,560
playing into this thing he already feels, even though she's

1411
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:50,359
coming from it. I mean, that's a great example of

1412
01:20:50,399 --> 01:20:54,640
how she is communicating something different than what he's probably

1413
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:57,399
hearing because she's just doing that to take care of him.

1414
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,039
But also but also is showing how what I really

1415
01:21:01,079 --> 01:21:04,359
appreciate about it is that it's also showing how people

1416
01:21:04,399 --> 01:21:08,359
can be triggered by activated by so many different things.

1417
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:11,560
Oh yeah, and that even though you may think that

1418
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:14,960
you're doing something helpful, just like the way John Walker

1419
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,720
calls him Bobby, Like, I know, John Walker is just

1420
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:20,880
being an asshole, right because that's we already talked about him,

1421
01:21:21,399 --> 01:21:25,119
But that being called that name is a trigger for

1422
01:21:25,239 --> 01:21:29,960
him experiencing what you just brought up that I already

1423
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,840
forgot somehow helplessness. No, I don't know what it was,

1424
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:38,720
forget it, just that people are triggered by all different

1425
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:40,479
kinds of things. And I think they did a really

1426
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:43,359
good job of showing of us kind of after we

1427
01:21:43,399 --> 01:21:48,439
see the core memory that is the time that he

1428
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,800
experienced the biggest trauma, I think makes a lot of

1429
01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:53,439
I lost my train of thought. I don't know what

1430
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:55,439
the fuck I was trying to say. No, I think

1431
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:58,920
what you're saying is well, Walker triggers him a lot too,

1432
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:02,520
I think also because he has about the energy. But

1433
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:04,399
I feel like it just what I really want to

1434
01:22:04,399 --> 01:22:08,319
point out is that you don't really understand how often

1435
01:22:08,359 --> 01:22:13,279
people can be activated and really having a little bit

1436
01:22:13,319 --> 01:22:20,640
more awareness about how we talk to people and approach them,

1437
01:22:21,319 --> 01:22:24,119
and there's so many, so many people have experienced so

1438
01:22:24,199 --> 01:22:28,159
much trauma in general. Having some awareness from this film

1439
01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:33,359
of seeing how just by being whoever, this guy is

1440
01:22:33,399 --> 01:22:37,319
being triggered in multiple ways throughout this throughout the film,

1441
01:22:38,239 --> 01:22:43,359
and it makes sense that we see the most angry

1442
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,720
version of him in the beginning of the movie in

1443
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:49,880
reaction to John, like John's the only one he kind

1444
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:54,800
of cops an attitude with. Yeah, because John is probably

1445
01:22:54,840 --> 01:22:57,399
reminds a lot of his dad. Yeah, and so he's

1446
01:22:57,399 --> 01:22:59,680
the only one where he's like, you're a dick and

1447
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:02,680
then like picks a fight with him. Probably what you

1448
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:05,279
could argue is that like the protective part of him. Yeah,

1449
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:07,039
you know, because in a lot of ways, you could

1450
01:23:07,119 --> 01:23:12,199
argue that the void is that part that thinks it

1451
01:23:12,279 --> 01:23:19,199
is helping Bob by keeping his foot on his neck.

1452
01:23:20,279 --> 01:23:25,640
Speaker 2: It's helping him by not letting him expose himself to pain,

1453
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:27,479
by thinking he's anything more than the voice.

1454
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:31,800
Speaker 1: Keep yourself in a box, and you will be miserable,

1455
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:35,119
but safe, things will not get worse. Yeah.

1456
01:23:35,279 --> 01:23:36,800
Speaker 2: It's not there to keep him safe. It's there to

1457
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:38,039
prevent things from getting worse.

1458
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:40,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when I watched movie the first time, I

1459
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:43,039
was nervous because it was doing a pretty good job

1460
01:23:43,159 --> 01:23:46,520
up to that point that Bob was going to beat

1461
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:49,960
the bad guy was by literally beating him to death.

1462
01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:54,560
And I really loved that the movie didn't end that way,

1463
01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:58,039
that it actually went the opposite direction, which is because

1464
01:23:58,039 --> 01:23:59,840
as a therapist watching it, I was like, no, no, no,

1465
01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:03,279
you can't beat this part of you into submission. You

1466
01:24:03,319 --> 01:24:07,720
cannot approach this part of you with hate and anger

1467
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:11,399
and violence, because that is also you. You have to

1468
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:13,520
approach that part of you with love and or let

1469
01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:14,319
that part go.

1470
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:17,399
Speaker 2: Same reason Batman can't kill the Joker.

1471
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:21,279
Speaker 1: Swudzie loves him so much.

1472
01:24:22,279 --> 01:24:29,399
Speaker 2: Kiss Kiss, Kiss, But it's it was beautifully done that

1473
01:24:30,239 --> 01:24:34,880
showing that he can't win that way. He can't because

1474
01:24:35,079 --> 01:24:38,520
by proving that he's a piece of shit yep, just

1475
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:42,079
like his dad. Ye, then he proves the Void was

1476
01:24:42,159 --> 01:24:45,199
right the whole time, which is why he starts turning

1477
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:52,600
dark and thus completely colorless. As he's beating that, it's

1478
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:57,479
taking him over by going see I told you.

1479
01:24:57,840 --> 01:25:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like we're repeating the cycle, and and how that

1480
01:25:00,359 --> 01:25:03,520
just adds to the shame and it creates that stuck place.

1481
01:25:04,359 --> 01:25:08,359
Speaker 2: The Void tries to tempt him into being self validating.

1482
01:25:09,199 --> 01:25:13,159
I am right, You're a piece of shit. Stop fighting

1483
01:25:13,199 --> 01:25:16,279
against it. Just accept it, and things will be better

1484
01:25:16,319 --> 01:25:19,600
because they'll be consistent. You'll just be the consistency of shit,

1485
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:20,720
which is what you always were.

1486
01:25:21,039 --> 01:25:24,560
Speaker 1: I feel like a part of such a big part

1487
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:31,000
of healing from trauma is someone witnessing your pain and

1488
01:25:31,239 --> 01:25:37,640
validating and understanding. And I feel like what was so

1489
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:43,239
beautiful about the way that they defeated the void was

1490
01:25:44,239 --> 01:25:48,079
by allowing the person to experience the pain that they

1491
01:25:48,159 --> 01:25:51,039
needed to and by witnessing it. And that is such

1492
01:25:51,079 --> 01:25:53,520
a big part of healing from trauma and such a

1493
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:56,600
real part of healing from trauma. And I felt like

1494
01:25:56,640 --> 01:26:00,840
they did such a beautiful job showing that even though

1495
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:05,119
it's really really hard and can be really intense, that

1496
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:10,880
we can get through those experiences well. And also that

1497
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:14,960
even though your void is what's gotten into us into

1498
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:19,840
this mess, we're not punishing you for that. Yeah, Like,

1499
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:22,239
we're not trying to kill Bob so that we can

1500
01:26:22,319 --> 01:26:27,960
kill the void. We're embracing literally Bob, so that we

1501
01:26:28,079 --> 01:26:32,439
disempower the void, and we let him cry it out

1502
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:36,840
well being held by his friends. We don't reject him

1503
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:40,239
when we were the truth. Yeah, exactly.

1504
01:26:41,239 --> 01:26:43,880
Speaker 2: We hold you through it and say you are not

1505
01:26:44,239 --> 01:26:47,880
that we understand. Look at all the things that made

1506
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:54,800
that happen, that was not you by yourself. Yeah, you

1507
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:59,119
hold some piece of that, but we recognize all the

1508
01:26:59,159 --> 01:27:01,640
rest of it in content text that it can't have

1509
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,720
been just you being a failure, being a piece of shit,

1510
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:10,479
being something bad that deserves to be bad and beheld

1511
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:10,920
as bad.

1512
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:11,399
Speaker 1: Forever.

1513
01:27:12,319 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 2: Elena is the light in this it is the light

1514
01:27:16,359 --> 01:27:20,159
that casts out the darkness. It's literally the Martin Luther

1515
01:27:20,279 --> 01:27:25,760
King speech. Yeah, activated darkness can't drive out darkness. Only

1516
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:29,239
light can do that. That was the point of Elena

1517
01:27:29,359 --> 01:27:33,319
in that scene, to be the light. She is the cleric.

1518
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:39,720
She is the one who is showing love and acceptance,

1519
01:27:40,279 --> 01:27:45,640
witnessing the pain but then welcoming him in through it.

1520
01:27:46,039 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's was a good storytelling too. I mean,

1521
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:52,199
I'm not surprised that Elena was the first one to

1522
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:57,479
hold him because that's been the narrative we've been following

1523
01:27:57,600 --> 01:28:01,920
through the movie. I do think it's really cool that

1524
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:04,560
Bucky was the second because, as we were saying, like

1525
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:08,720
Bucky and Yolena, I think are the ones who can

1526
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:12,199
find the most connection to Bob and the void and

1527
01:28:12,199 --> 01:28:17,840
that they have also been bad, like done bad things

1528
01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:22,039
and want to be forgiven for having done bad things

1529
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:25,520
when they were in a bad situation, and so I

1530
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:29,720
think they are the most able to recognize that it

1531
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:32,279
is happening. And I think the ones that are still

1532
01:28:32,279 --> 01:28:36,520
a little farther behind, like Walker and Alexi, they can

1533
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:41,720
get on board because everyone else is doing it, But

1534
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:43,880
I don't know if they would have been the ones

1535
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,439
to be able to see to do that. If it

1536
01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:48,279
was just the two of them, I think they might

1537
01:28:48,279 --> 01:28:51,159
have adopted a little bit too much of the yeah,

1538
01:28:51,199 --> 01:28:54,920
we should ground and pound the void like. I think

1539
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:57,920
it's a good sign of like who's of where everyone's

1540
01:28:58,039 --> 01:29:03,119
progresses on their journey, of like figuring themselves out.

1541
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:07,239
Speaker 2: I think all of that is true, and it makes

1542
01:29:07,239 --> 01:29:11,159
me realize that the story we don't have yet as

1543
01:29:11,199 --> 01:29:15,600
we were mapping this all out, is who's the foil

1544
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:19,520
to Bob or the complete part to Bob? And by

1545
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:25,000
definition here it has to be Ava. Ava is fractured

1546
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:31,159
and separated from herself, trying to keep herself whole. Bob

1547
01:29:31,239 --> 01:29:35,359
is the opposite. He's trying to keep himself fractured. Alexi

1548
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:42,640
and Walker our two little peas in a pod, Bucky

1549
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:43,840
and Yolena.

1550
01:29:44,119 --> 01:29:45,159
Speaker 1: The two peas, our.

1551
01:29:45,079 --> 01:29:47,319
Speaker 2: Two little peas in a pod. That means we have

1552
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:48,840
two left out.

1553
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 1: It'll be interesting if where they take that in the

1554
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:53,039
next movie.

1555
01:29:53,199 --> 01:29:55,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go ahead and bet my bottom dollar that

1556
01:29:56,399 --> 01:30:02,079
she was deliberately kept a little on the outside of this,

1557
01:30:02,159 --> 01:30:05,000
because that's what's going to happen in the next one.

1558
01:30:05,199 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, she also has a Bob haircut symbolism in the

1559
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:16,159
aftergross she did also true, and that's also something I

1560
01:30:16,199 --> 01:30:19,479
did like a lot too, is that when we're seeing

1561
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:22,520
them like a year later, a little over a year later,

1562
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:27,359
fourteen months, what they said that Bob is still healing.

1563
01:30:28,399 --> 01:30:33,960
He is just concentrating on being well, and they're letting

1564
01:30:34,039 --> 01:30:38,520
him just concentrate on being well. He just does. He's

1565
01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:41,000
just self caring. He just says the dishes, he's doing

1566
01:30:41,079 --> 01:30:44,359
his ad ls mm hmmm, and he's reading in the

1567
01:30:44,399 --> 01:30:47,840
corner looking out the window in a robe and I

1568
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:50,119
love that. And it's a year over a year later

1569
01:30:50,159 --> 01:30:52,640
and he's still doing that. Like, That's something I don't

1570
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:54,520
think we would have seen in an earlier movie of

1571
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:58,000
this kind. Definitely not There would have been more of

1572
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:04,000
a magical like now can be I don't know, super Bob. Yeah, yeah, totally,

1573
01:31:04,199 --> 01:31:05,520
especially over a year later.

1574
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:09,680
Speaker 2: Come on, you mean like thor four that steaming pile of.

1575
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:13,439
Speaker 1: Garbage of which we do not speak, Yeah, yeah, I

1576
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:15,920
think that's really hard at it. Yeah, yeah, but I

1577
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:18,119
think this is a way more realistic version, which is

1578
01:31:18,119 --> 01:31:22,319
going to take a long time. Before if Bob can

1579
01:31:22,319 --> 01:31:27,680
ever be a superhero because it requires him, Like he

1580
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:31,520
was saying, I have to figure out how to manage

1581
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:35,439
my parts that get activated when I do this stuff.

1582
01:31:37,119 --> 01:31:39,680
And he's practicing like humility around that instead of shame,

1583
01:31:40,119 --> 01:31:41,000
and it is gonna take time.

1584
01:31:41,039 --> 01:31:44,520
Speaker 2: You're right, that takes time and healing and self care

1585
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:46,479
and deliberate.

1586
01:31:47,199 --> 01:31:47,439
Speaker 1: Uh uh.

1587
01:31:48,159 --> 01:31:51,119
Speaker 2: If I open that box, they both come out.

1588
01:31:51,319 --> 01:31:53,239
Speaker 1: I think a lot of that must do with the

1589
01:31:53,279 --> 01:31:57,319
influence of Yolena and Bucky. I'm sure they're the ones

1590
01:31:57,359 --> 01:31:59,600
that are like, Bob's fine. Well. I think Lena even

1591
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:02,439
kind of says that it's fine over there. Don't worry

1592
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:05,720
about him. Yeah, he doesn't need to do anything, whereas

1593
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:08,399
I feel like, well, we do see that with Alexi

1594
01:32:08,439 --> 01:32:11,920
and stuff, like they would start pushing him to do

1595
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:16,720
before he could because they're not as emotionally keyed in.

1596
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:21,399
Speaker 2: Oh, Walker and Alexi would have him activate.

1597
01:32:22,239 --> 01:32:29,279
Speaker 1: They'd be like living through him, especially Walker, m we're

1598
01:32:29,279 --> 01:32:32,520
gonna be pussy. Come on, it's been like a year.

1599
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:36,720
You'll be fine. Let's just try one vish to see

1600
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:41,199
what happens. That's exactly, and I think Elena and Bucky

1601
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:44,119
they both know like this when you're actually doing it,

1602
01:32:44,119 --> 01:32:47,319
it's a long time between knowing what's going on and

1603
01:32:47,399 --> 01:32:52,319
actually feeling healed enough from what's going on to be

1604
01:32:52,439 --> 01:32:56,479
able to put yourself back in situations that are going

1605
01:32:56,560 --> 01:33:01,239
to be really difficult for you. Yeah, because also Bob

1606
01:33:01,279 --> 01:33:05,479
doesn't have the experience that Bucky and Elina have of

1607
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:08,680
like living in both those worlds, like he was a

1608
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:11,800
regular shmegular person with a lot of stuff. Yeah, so

1609
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:13,840
he doesn't know how to switch gears either the way

1610
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:15,479
that they do, where they can kind of still do

1611
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:19,479
the same shit while also trying to like heal themselves.

1612
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:23,359
But even that's not necessarily true because Bucky took himself

1613
01:33:23,399 --> 01:33:24,840
out of it. Like the all Fouk of the Wentres

1614
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:28,239
Soldier is about is him taking himself out of the

1615
01:33:28,279 --> 01:33:30,479
game doing the thing Bob is kind of doing, which

1616
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:32,760
is like just going to be in my apartment, go

1617
01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:34,640
to the same bar down the street, have dinner with

1618
01:33:34,680 --> 01:33:37,319
that guy, old guy I know, and try to stay

1619
01:33:37,319 --> 01:33:38,399
out of trouble and go therapy.

1620
01:33:40,159 --> 01:33:44,760
Speaker 2: When Steve and Tony had their big fight and had

1621
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:47,479
all this stuff, Civil War is about the Registry and

1622
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:50,880
all that Bucky fucked off and went to a con.

1623
01:33:51,079 --> 01:33:53,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. What he's had many moments of like

1624
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:58,239
going off the grid and having downtime, and so I

1625
01:33:58,239 --> 01:34:01,640
think he can recognize the important of that. And I

1626
01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:08,479
think Elena respects it too obviously. Yeah. Yeah, she sees

1627
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:15,760
herself in Bob totally hard, totally I think we all do. Yeah. Yeah,

1628
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:21,039
well treatment after a break? What about Bob? What about Bob?

1629
01:34:21,079 --> 01:34:26,399
I can't fuck that movie is like the secret mascot.

1630
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:30,039
We have tried to do it for two years, and

1631
01:34:30,079 --> 01:34:32,279
it's also the movie we talked about since we started

1632
01:34:32,279 --> 01:34:34,680
this podcast. It's like our little mascot that we just

1633
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:39,279
will never do. Basically our very last episode about Bob.

1634
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:44,680
Yeah maybe maybe so I'll go first for treatment. So

1635
01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:46,960
when I was thinking about treatment, of course, I was

1636
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:49,560
thinking about working with Alexi and Elena. There's a couple.

1637
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:51,560
There's two different things I would want to do with them.

1638
01:34:52,159 --> 01:34:55,479
So one thing would be really talking to them about

1639
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:58,399
what kind of relationship they want to have going forward.

1640
01:34:59,279 --> 01:35:01,640
Do they want to continue to have like a father

1641
01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:04,760
daughter relationship? Do they especially if they're going to be

1642
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:08,199
working together, Like what kind of relationship are we looking

1643
01:35:08,239 --> 01:35:11,279
at here for both of them? Because I think they've

1644
01:35:11,399 --> 01:35:13,680
never gotten to choose what kind of relationship they were

1645
01:35:13,720 --> 01:35:15,359
going to have with each other, and I think it

1646
01:35:15,359 --> 01:35:18,039
would be very important to help them come to that conclusion.

1647
01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:20,199
I think the other thing that would be really important

1648
01:35:20,239 --> 01:35:24,399
to do with them is doing some like in session

1649
01:35:25,239 --> 01:35:28,520
in the present time, some kind of activity where they

1650
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:31,079
have to rely on each other. In terms of communication.

1651
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:34,960
There's all different ways to do that. I have a

1652
01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:39,880
couple of different things. One example is showing someone a

1653
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:43,960
piece of paper where there is a line errow going

1654
01:35:44,039 --> 01:35:46,800
right and an errow going left, and one person having

1655
01:35:46,840 --> 01:35:49,319
to describe to the other person where the arrows are

1656
01:35:49,399 --> 01:35:53,960
on the paper and what direction they're going in without

1657
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:58,000
I can't remember exactly actually now that i'm thinking of it. Fuck,

1658
01:35:59,119 --> 01:36:01,079
and just to see how to or their communication is

1659
01:36:01,399 --> 01:36:04,680
so one person will take a turn one time, and

1660
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:06,800
then they'll switch and the other person will have to

1661
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:08,279
do it, and then they'll be able to see how

1662
01:36:08,319 --> 01:36:11,680
hard it is to communicate something. And that's how we

1663
01:36:11,720 --> 01:36:16,840
help people learn about communication. What it helps is helps

1664
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:19,479
them both knowing that I wish you would have said this,

1665
01:36:19,920 --> 01:36:22,560
I wish you would have clarified this. I wish you

1666
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:27,800
would have given more descriptive information, like it's a way

1667
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:32,680
to really simply show how important it is to really

1668
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:36,119
understand what a person is saying to us and to

1669
01:36:36,159 --> 01:36:37,840
be able to get it. And so I think that's

1670
01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:40,000
something that'd be really helpful for them to learn. So

1671
01:36:40,039 --> 01:36:42,199
that's what I would do with Alexi and the Yolena.

1672
01:36:45,079 --> 01:36:49,279
I guess if I worked with Yolena, and I think

1673
01:36:49,319 --> 01:36:53,199
she's actually getting this with the Avengers. That she's doing

1674
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:57,840
is that she clearly is someone that is very isolated

1675
01:36:58,560 --> 01:37:02,399
and bloss when she has people that she can take

1676
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:06,239
care of, and which could also be a product of,

1677
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:08,880
if nothing else, when she was a black widow, she

1678
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:13,760
was always around other peers doing stuff, working together, So

1679
01:37:13,840 --> 01:37:20,039
she might be ironically like, being this alone might be

1680
01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:23,880
not what she's used to and bad for her. I mean,

1681
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:25,760
it's bad for anybody, but I wonder for her if

1682
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:27,600
she's used to being part of a group and being

1683
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:31,560
so alone working alone, even though quote unquote's better for her,

1684
01:37:32,479 --> 01:37:35,000
it also might be tremendously lonely, which I guess is

1685
01:37:35,079 --> 01:37:37,199
something I didn't think of till now. Obviously why she's

1686
01:37:37,239 --> 01:37:39,520
going over and barking up le X Street. But anyway,

1687
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,359
so with Elena. Let's say if she didn't join the Avengers,

1688
01:37:42,399 --> 01:37:44,920
Let's say that she just got out of it but

1689
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:47,880
was still spend a lot of time alone and wanted

1690
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:50,840
to work with me. She's someone that if I thought

1691
01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:55,319
she was stable enough to like not cause problems into

1692
01:37:55,319 --> 01:37:59,039
personal with other people, I might recommend her to do

1693
01:37:59,079 --> 01:38:02,600
community work, to maybe be like a big brother big

1694
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:06,239
sister kind of thing, or to I don't know, teach

1695
01:38:06,239 --> 01:38:08,840
a self defense class, like do something where she can

1696
01:38:09,119 --> 01:38:13,199
be around other people, maybe put her skills in a

1697
01:38:13,239 --> 01:38:17,279
different way, like reframing her strengths in a way that

1698
01:38:17,359 --> 01:38:21,840
feels positive and good, like I said, like mentoring other people. Like,

1699
01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:23,840
She's someone that I'd be like, Well, tell me what

1700
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:25,680
it was like to be black widow. Are there things

1701
01:38:25,680 --> 01:38:29,159
that you miss? And then are are there different ways

1702
01:38:29,239 --> 01:38:34,560
to do those same things in a healthy, empowering way

1703
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:39,079
where you are choosing to engage in those skills and

1704
01:38:39,199 --> 01:38:42,720
engage in those environments. And I do that with people

1705
01:38:42,760 --> 01:38:45,279
like I've worked with people where a lot of their

1706
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:49,199
identity is like fighting their parents, for example, and then

1707
01:38:49,239 --> 01:38:50,960
their parents no longer in their life, and they have

1708
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:56,159
all this like restless agro energy and I'm like, put

1709
01:38:56,159 --> 01:38:58,880
that into social justice, go to a protest, you know,

1710
01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:01,600
figure out what you care about, and try to think

1711
01:39:01,640 --> 01:39:04,680
of those parts of you as skills that you can

1712
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:07,000
put in a different way. So I think she would

1713
01:39:07,039 --> 01:39:10,199
be someone that could do really well with that. Also,

1714
01:39:10,239 --> 01:39:13,159
it helps build self esteem obviously to do something esteemable.

1715
01:39:13,840 --> 01:39:17,000
So helping other people I think would help her feel

1716
01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:19,800
good about herself and feel connected to other people. And

1717
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:23,079
she's because she's obviously, as we even see more with

1718
01:39:23,079 --> 01:39:25,840
like the Hawkeye Show, she's someone that likes to banter,

1719
01:39:26,600 --> 01:39:31,000
she likes to quip like, she is looking for connection,

1720
01:39:31,199 --> 01:39:36,039
she's looking for siblings. And so if she didn't have

1721
01:39:36,079 --> 01:39:38,520
the Avengers, I think that I would want her to

1722
01:39:38,560 --> 01:39:41,359
do something like that but low risk too. Like I

1723
01:39:41,399 --> 01:39:43,399
think if I was a therapist, I wouldn't love the

1724
01:39:43,439 --> 01:39:48,239
Avengers thing because it's so high risk and so high stakes.

1725
01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:51,960
I'd be like, Oh, I love that you're feeling, you know,

1726
01:39:52,079 --> 01:39:55,079
maybe more empowered or maybe more positive about this stuff

1727
01:39:55,119 --> 01:39:56,520
and you get to be a good guy, which she

1728
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:59,119
talks about in the beginning of the movie. And I

1729
01:39:59,159 --> 01:40:03,079
wish this was more like local self defense or the

1730
01:40:03,079 --> 01:40:08,640
Neighborhood Watch or something like not something where you feel

1731
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:11,079
like I could I could fuck up really badly. And

1732
01:40:11,119 --> 01:40:12,960
then also I wouldn't love that she's necessarily doing with

1733
01:40:13,000 --> 01:40:15,079
her dad, like I'd want it to be her own

1734
01:40:15,159 --> 01:40:19,479
thing that she can kind of create a new community

1735
01:40:19,520 --> 01:40:22,279
around of people that maybe didn't know her before, so

1736
01:40:22,279 --> 01:40:24,399
she can kind of be who she wants to be

1737
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:27,279
and figure that out too, because that's a big part

1738
01:40:27,319 --> 01:40:30,199
of like when she talks about black Widow, I've never

1739
01:40:30,199 --> 01:40:34,560
bought clothes for myself before, and so finding ways for

1740
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:38,119
her to expand that in the world. So that's what

1741
01:40:38,159 --> 01:40:39,000
I would do with Elena.

1742
01:40:41,199 --> 01:40:44,760
Speaker 2: She guess leaves me and probably the surprise of no one,

1743
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:48,439
Bob is pretty much with the universe finds for me

1744
01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:50,600
as a client pretty routinely.

1745
01:40:52,279 --> 01:40:55,119
Speaker 1: Working with Bob would be.

1746
01:40:56,640 --> 01:40:59,960
Speaker 2: Just absolutely the right call of all these characters, because Bucky,

1747
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:03,119
he's already done quite a bit and probably doesn't need

1748
01:41:03,159 --> 01:41:05,640
the degree of stuff that we do. He's already done it.

1749
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:10,079
But Bob is early in his journey. Bob is somebody who,

1750
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:14,119
though may benefit from something like EMDR right now, he

1751
01:41:14,199 --> 01:41:18,760
does not have adequate coping skills and resources and trust

1752
01:41:18,760 --> 01:41:22,720
in himself that I would follow that path just yet.

1753
01:41:23,159 --> 01:41:26,760
I think I'd be doing a lot of what we

1754
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:30,319
refer to as resource building, which is what he is

1755
01:41:30,359 --> 01:41:33,039
doing at the end of this film, and why the

1756
01:41:33,079 --> 01:41:35,520
people that have been there and done that are like

1757
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:38,720
Bob's fine. Bob is doing what Bob needs to do.

1758
01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:41,920
Bob is starting to realize, and what I would be

1759
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:44,800
guiding him through is that we're going to be reinforcing

1760
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:48,800
this idea that you can be enough just hanging out,

1761
01:41:49,079 --> 01:41:52,920
that you're helpful, and you don't have to have a supersuit.

1762
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:56,199
You don't have to be the Golden Boy to be enough.

1763
01:41:56,560 --> 01:41:58,600
And if right now doing the dishes and kind of

1764
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:01,960
being a positive energy is enough and that feels good

1765
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:03,760
to you, then we're gonna go ahead and sit in

1766
01:42:03,760 --> 01:42:08,439
that space and feel like enough for once being around heroes,

1767
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:11,600
even though we all know that that's a really complicated thing,

1768
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:13,640
because when some shit's going to go down and he's like, no,

1769
01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:16,560
I'm gonna make it worse, that's going to start reinforcing

1770
01:42:16,560 --> 01:42:20,279
the bad narratives. But with someone like Bob working the

1771
01:42:20,359 --> 01:42:25,479
ideas that come from somatic experiencing in of recognizing that

1772
01:42:25,560 --> 01:42:29,640
it's not just about the negative thoughts it's not just

1773
01:42:29,680 --> 01:42:33,600
about the bad beliefs he has about himself that are

1774
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:38,159
clearly tied to these bad experiences. It's the body activation

1775
01:42:38,960 --> 01:42:43,840
that comes along with it. When you activate one of

1776
01:42:43,880 --> 01:42:46,680
those old memories that Bob tends to dissociate into that

1777
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:50,800
we see constantly trying to break through into every other

1778
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:55,880
room in the void. Is because those things still feel

1779
01:42:55,920 --> 01:42:56,920
like an active threat.

1780
01:42:57,199 --> 01:42:59,359
Speaker 1: Our mind doesn't have any use for time.

1781
01:43:00,239 --> 01:43:03,279
Speaker 2: When our right brain is activated, when our survival system

1782
01:43:03,359 --> 01:43:08,000
is activated, there's no relevance to time because the threat

1783
01:43:08,119 --> 01:43:11,000
is still present. If you don't survive the threat, you

1784
01:43:11,039 --> 01:43:14,039
don't survive there's a tiger in your house. It's going

1785
01:43:14,079 --> 01:43:16,880
to eat you, or it's not. You live, you die.

1786
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:18,000
That's it.

1787
01:43:18,520 --> 01:43:19,920
Speaker 1: So it doesn't matter how long it is.

1788
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:22,239
Speaker 2: As long as your body can activate a memory where

1789
01:43:22,239 --> 01:43:25,520
the tiger is still there, it's still going to think

1790
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:28,159
it needs to respond to the tiger. And that's what

1791
01:43:28,239 --> 01:43:32,359
Bob is going through. And helping Bob go through constant

1792
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:36,039
deactivation and awareness of what's going on in his body

1793
01:43:36,039 --> 01:43:40,640
when he perceives the tiger present, is what phase of

1794
01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:42,600
treatment he's in right now where we need to build

1795
01:43:42,720 --> 01:43:47,039
that recognition, that awareness and ways to deactivate it without

1796
01:43:47,079 --> 01:43:51,039
necessarily flooding him with all the bad memories and trying

1797
01:43:51,079 --> 01:43:53,640
to work through that. He needs resources to know he

1798
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:56,600
can deactivate it before we're going to try to teach

1799
01:43:56,640 --> 01:44:01,640
him to flood and deactivate working with Bob. Bob Scott

1800
01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:04,199
years and years and years of work to do. But

1801
01:44:04,319 --> 01:44:06,960
a competent therapist won't just be like, hey, Bob, we're

1802
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:08,520
going to kick open the door to that thing you've

1803
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:10,760
been trying to keep partitioned off for yourself so you

1804
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:14,960
don't destroy the entire world. A person who's going to

1805
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:17,079
be a competent therapist first, person like that is going

1806
01:44:17,119 --> 01:44:20,399
to recognize that the darkness is that bad and he

1807
01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:23,720
may in fact blow up the entire world. So let's

1808
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:27,680
go ahead and respect the protective walls he put around

1809
01:44:27,680 --> 01:44:30,520
that and help him realize he doesn't need them anymore.

1810
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:33,319
He may have needed him before, but he doesn't need

1811
01:44:33,359 --> 01:44:35,239
them anymore, and let's help him believe that so that

1812
01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:36,079
he doesn't.

1813
01:44:36,359 --> 01:44:39,399
Speaker 1: That's what I do. Bob, all right, we'll take our

1814
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:43,279
last break care and be back with final thoughts. Final thoughts, guys,

1815
01:44:43,319 --> 01:44:46,159
we all have the same final thoughts. We loved it

1816
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:50,800
loved it, loved it, loved it, Gotta watch it more. Oh,

1817
01:44:50,800 --> 01:44:52,760
this is gonna be my new Winter Soldier watch Like,

1818
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:54,680
oh yeah, I watch over and over again.

1819
01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:58,439
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, this is perfection.

1820
01:44:59,319 --> 01:45:01,520
Speaker 1: It's really well written. Even now I was talking about it,

1821
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:04,520
it's making me appreciate the script more and how things

1822
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:07,159
line up in the beginning pay out in the end. Like,

1823
01:45:07,199 --> 01:45:10,640
it's a really well contained script. I wonder who wrote it.

1824
01:45:11,760 --> 01:45:15,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, whoever did, did a fucking awesome job.

1825
01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:19,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, three therapists give it three thumbs up. Up. Watching it,

1826
01:45:19,279 --> 01:45:21,560
there was really nothing that I saw on the screen

1827
01:45:22,159 --> 01:45:24,720
that put me off in terms of like, ooh, that

1828
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:26,720
wouldn't really be other than the kind of like the

1829
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:29,199
diagnostic soup that is Bob. But as we were saying,

1830
01:45:29,199 --> 01:45:31,880
like that could that is a way that sometimes people

1831
01:45:31,880 --> 01:45:34,319
show up though with his complicated of a background.

1832
01:45:34,439 --> 01:45:39,319
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely all day, I don't know, nothing put me off.

1833
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:44,319
Watching this made me really excited to watch The Fantastic Four.

1834
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:47,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, well, like, it really made me

1835
01:45:47,199 --> 01:45:49,960
feel like Marvel movies used to make me feel, yeah,

1836
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:53,119
which is pumped. Yeah, yeah, and I want to watch

1837
01:45:53,159 --> 01:45:53,560
this again.

1838
01:45:53,920 --> 01:45:58,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I think by allowing Ryan Reynolds to troll them

1839
01:45:59,079 --> 01:46:03,640
and say, hey, you kept trying this multiverse thing, nobody

1840
01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:09,319
liked it. Fucking stop that they admitted it, and then

1841
01:46:09,359 --> 01:46:11,399
they did this movie of like, yeah, you're right, though,

1842
01:46:12,359 --> 01:46:14,239
we're still gonna do it multiverse thing, but we're gonna

1843
01:46:14,239 --> 01:46:16,960
stop sucking it up because here come the Fantastic Four

1844
01:46:17,039 --> 01:46:19,159
from the sixties into rocket Ship.

1845
01:46:19,760 --> 01:46:21,640
Speaker 1: Well, this isn't more in. It's kind of the way

1846
01:46:21,640 --> 01:46:24,600
that like the Spider Verse does it, which is if

1847
01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:28,840
you're gonna do multiverses, like do like this is interesting,

1848
01:46:29,159 --> 01:46:33,560
like just like really different styles, really different vibes, right,

1849
01:46:34,119 --> 01:46:37,319
instead of just like I don't know, just making it

1850
01:46:37,319 --> 01:46:38,720
complicated but not fun.

1851
01:46:39,199 --> 01:46:41,560
Speaker 2: I'm king, but I'm not king, but I'm king. You're like,

1852
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:42,680
all right, you have to.

1853
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:48,920
Speaker 1: Make it like stylistically interesting and exciting and surprising.

1854
01:46:49,000 --> 01:46:52,680
Speaker 2: And able to make it differentiate.

1855
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:55,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, because what feels exciting about the Fantastic Four movie

1856
01:46:55,079 --> 01:46:58,439
is it looks so fucking different. It's like the Jetsons. Yeah,

1857
01:46:58,520 --> 01:47:02,239
like it looks cool. I'm like, oh, that's finally, I mean,

1858
01:47:02,279 --> 01:47:03,720
and that's why I'm like one of the few people

1859
01:47:03,760 --> 01:47:05,840
that liked Eternals because I was like this looks different.

1860
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:09,399
This feels different than Marvel movies have been looking and feeling,

1861
01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:13,239
and so that's why I liked it, And so I'm

1862
01:47:13,239 --> 01:47:15,520
glad that it seems like they're starting to go that

1863
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:21,479
direction again of like letting like letting people play with

1864
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:25,880
this content, like the fact that everyone who made this

1865
01:47:25,960 --> 01:47:29,760
movie is like an A twenty four person, like the cinematographers,

1866
01:47:30,239 --> 01:47:34,640
the editors, the composer, the director, like the writer. Actually

1867
01:47:34,640 --> 01:47:36,800
the writing director is the same writer director as Beef,

1868
01:47:37,560 --> 01:47:40,960
which is also a good show on Netflix if anyone

1869
01:47:41,039 --> 01:47:44,119
hasn't watched it yet. And that's a very different vibe

1870
01:47:44,159 --> 01:47:47,720
than someone I would pick to do like a Marvel movie.

1871
01:47:47,840 --> 01:47:49,720
And I think they really came in and brought that

1872
01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:52,439
vibe to this movie.

1873
01:47:52,680 --> 01:47:55,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes letting someone come in with a weird vibe

1874
01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:57,840
on something works really really well.

1875
01:47:57,680 --> 01:48:01,600
Speaker 1: Which is why thor Ragnrock worked really well before it

1876
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:03,720
went too far and went so far in the other

1877
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:07,319
direction that like came back on itself. Yeah yeah, four

1878
01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:14,079
was yeah, but three D he was brilliant. Yeah yeah,

1879
01:48:14,359 --> 01:48:16,720
but this movie really, like I loved, like I said,

1880
01:48:16,760 --> 01:48:22,399
I loved how that the power of friendship. Yeah, it's

1881
01:48:22,439 --> 01:48:25,359
how we won. Yeah, and that it wasn't just like

1882
01:48:25,399 --> 01:48:29,680
a lesser movie would have just had like Bob defeat

1883
01:48:30,399 --> 01:48:34,399
the void by submission instead of like, no, baby, you

1884
01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:38,359
just gotta cry it out. Yeah, all your friends right,

1885
01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:43,239
or Bob would have killed yeah and then been like

1886
01:48:43,279 --> 01:48:45,159
ha ha I finally dominated.

1887
01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:48,800
Speaker 2: Yeah said, now we have this super complicated dynamic where

1888
01:48:49,079 --> 01:48:52,239
they all know but it for survival they must.

1889
01:48:52,399 --> 01:48:56,920
Speaker 1: Well, now it's like Chekov's gun, Bob over there waiting

1890
01:48:56,920 --> 01:49:00,199
to see if he gets fired, and a point any

1891
01:49:00,239 --> 01:49:03,880
other final thoughts, No, no, you should probably cut half

1892
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:10,000
of those. I liked it all right. Well, if you

1893
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:12,319
also love Thunderbolts, send us an email about it or

1894
01:49:12,359 --> 01:49:14,960
on Instagram DM. You can find us at all social

1895
01:49:15,039 --> 01:49:18,479
media platforms at Popcorn Psychology except for Twitter slash x.

1896
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:20,560
We're no longer on there, but you can find us

1897
01:49:20,560 --> 01:49:24,000
on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok at popcorn Psychology. You can email

1898
01:49:24,079 --> 01:49:26,920
us at popworn psychologygmail dot com. If you would like

1899
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:29,520
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1900
01:49:29,520 --> 01:49:33,840
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1901
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:36,000
you're a fifty dollars or more patron, you can pick

1902
01:49:36,039 --> 01:49:38,159
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1903
01:49:38,159 --> 01:49:40,279
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1904
01:49:40,359 --> 01:49:42,359
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1905
01:49:42,399 --> 01:49:44,720
It's the best way for new people to find us.

1906
01:49:45,399 --> 01:49:46,720
Go Thunderbolts.