Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What? What's going to happen?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Cult Rejects this episode. We got a
Speaker 1: bunch of people with us, a bunch of rejects here
Speaker 1: and a very special guests, an author that I'm very
Speaker 1: very excited to have on, especially for this topic. But
Speaker 1: before we introduce him, I'm going to reintroduce the other
Speaker 1: rejects today. We got joining us at Jake Jay. How
Speaker 1: do you say it like that? The way you spelled
Speaker 1: that fucked me up, Jacqueline Jay Quillan say, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: from Universe Unveiled. Yeah, please introduce yourself one and everybody
Speaker 1: wants yep.
Speaker 3: So I'm Jacqueline. I'm the co host of Universe Unveiled
Speaker 3: podcast presented by the Institute for Natural Philosophy.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 4: Thank you Nick for the invite.
Speaker 2: And I'm I think I'm going to get a little
Speaker 2: bit schooled, so I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1: All right. Yeah, I think all of us are really
Speaker 1: including myself, So yeah, I'm very much looking forward to this.
Speaker 1: And we got my Managin the Ninja. What is going on, sir?
Speaker 4: Hey boss? What's up? Really good? To be on this episode.
Speaker 2: I've been looking forward to it, josh and I have
Speaker 2: been looking forward to it for all month pretty much,
Speaker 2: and I knew as soon as you sent me the
Speaker 2: email that this was one I definitely wanted on. So
Speaker 2: you can check me out at Threshold Saints at Threshold
Speaker 2: Saints on ig and ex Twitter or at wukongrie Born,
Speaker 2: which is my personal account, and also our roundtable podcast
Speaker 2: which is The Gray Lodge, of which of course Joshua
Speaker 2: as a founding member, and if you're interested in that,
Speaker 2: we have a YouTube and we are live on x
Speaker 2: Friday night Nastic Masks every Friday six or seven, yes,
Speaker 2: depending on my mood. So you can definitely check us
Speaker 2: out there and thank you so much. I'm really looking forward.
Speaker 1: To this listen. Thank you and the branch. What is
Speaker 1: going on, so please let everybody know what you deal with.
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure to be here again so soon. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I belong to the Gray Lodge. We do some spaces
Speaker 5: every Friday night. It's a lot of fun, very eclectic,
Speaker 5: speculative spaces and you can also find me on Instagram
Speaker 5: as Apocalyptic Aesthetic and on Twitter is w Burkin Umbrella.
Speaker 5: Let's get into the names of God.
Speaker 1: All right, sounds good. Thank you very much, sir and Tyrone.
Speaker 1: Please let everybody know what is up.
Speaker 6: Well, I hope everybody so. Yeah.
Speaker 7: So I'm excited to be here like always, you know,
Speaker 7: I'm excited to learn something new. Every day you wake up,
Speaker 7: you got to learn something new. But everything you can
Speaker 7: find on and learn about me is on my website
Speaker 7: rebirth at theWord dot com. I have a Rombo County, Instagram, Facebook,
Speaker 7: Twitter X all that stuff. All I'm trying to do
Speaker 7: is just share what I've learned.
Speaker 6: And that's it. That's all I care about, is just
Speaker 6: sharing what I've learned.
Speaker 1: That's it.
Speaker 6: Thanks Nick, I appreciate that, bro.
Speaker 1: Of course. No, I appreciate you jumping on. Thank you.
Speaker 1: And for finally, last but not least, Ethan in the go,
Speaker 1: what's going on.
Speaker 6: With by Ethan's book too?
Speaker 4: Hey?
Speaker 6: Hold up? Sorry, buy Ethan's book too? Yeah, everyone buy
Speaker 6: my book.
Speaker 3: I always like to tell people you don't have to
Speaker 3: read it to buy it on trip.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 3: Honored to be here. I always enjoy learning so much
Speaker 3: from the guests. Shamie, this is going to be great
Speaker 3: and all the steam's co hosts easy to find on
Speaker 3: all the social media, and my.
Speaker 6: Books are out there as well. So appreciate being here.
Speaker 6: Thanks Nick, oh, thank you, Thank you Ron.
Speaker 1: And finally we got a guesst himself. We have Jamie
Speaker 1: Paul Land and he does have a book that is
Speaker 1: going to be coming out, the astrological Gaisha the seventy
Speaker 1: two Keys to Angelic and Demonic Astrology. Ooh, so very
Speaker 1: excited to have him here and to talk about that.
Speaker 1: I have, you know, touched on the Goaishia numerous times
Speaker 1: on the show, but never like really went into it.
Speaker 1: And we're not really consider myself someone to talk on
Speaker 1: it for a whole episode. I just you know, I
Speaker 1: don't think I have those credentials. So we have somebody
Speaker 1: here who can. So I'm very excited about that. Jamie.
Speaker 1: Please let everybody know. I guess you know what other
Speaker 1: stuff you have that you might want to promote, whether
Speaker 1: they can find anything. Let everybody know where they can
Speaker 1: find you.
Speaker 4: Well, I've got my website which is Jamie Paul lamb
Speaker 4: dot com, and on there I offer services like astrological
Speaker 4: consultation and taro and things. But there's also you know,
Speaker 4: like I do courses in traditional astrology. And other than that,
Speaker 4: I've got three other books out before Astrological Goishia, which
Speaker 4: are primarily Masonic focused, so they were done on smaller
Speaker 4: Masonic imprints, but they're available on Amazon. If you just
Speaker 4: look up my name, you could see, you know, those
Speaker 4: books on Amazon. This, in fact, the Astrological go Aisha
Speaker 4: is actually my first non Masonic book, and it's just
Speaker 4: based on a lot of studies and things into the
Speaker 4: Grimwire tradition and particularly Greco Egyptian magic like that you'd
Speaker 4: find in like the PGM, but all the way through
Speaker 4: the pick A Trix and that's those sort of Perso
Speaker 4: Arabic medieval grimoires, and yeah, that's basically my zone in
Speaker 4: the last couple of years, like maybe five years or so.
Speaker 4: And yeah, all my work that I do on my
Speaker 4: website is kind of centered around that particular perspective. But yeah,
Speaker 4: this is my first book that's not Masonic. Like I said,
Speaker 4: the word Freemasonry is not even in this book anywhere,
Speaker 4: and I'm thinking that, you know, it's a much wider demographic,
Speaker 4: So I just wonder how this is going to play out.
Speaker 4: But I'm very excited about this book, and it's a
Speaker 4: pleasure to be on occult rejects. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Oh no, thank you please as soon as you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, as soon as I got the email,
Speaker 1: as you know, let me know about you. I looked
Speaker 1: at you stuff. I was like, oh, oh, I got
Speaker 1: to get this guy on. I was truly excited to
Speaker 1: cover this time.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I guess real quick. Oh, you know, you had
Speaker 1: mentioned like the Freemason Freemason books I know on your site.
Speaker 1: I think, if you don't mind, maybe I know like you.
Speaker 1: I think you've had experience as being a Freemason member,
Speaker 1: and you are also associated with like Mark Stavish and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. I don't know if you wanted to
Speaker 1: promote that or just go over that real quick too.
Speaker 4: Sure. Yeah, I'm the instructor of astrology at Mark Estavish's
Speaker 4: Institute for Hermetic Studies, and he and I are very
Speaker 4: close and I've known him a number of years. And
Speaker 4: uh yeah, I pretty much I've done a lot of
Speaker 4: speaking just all over the US on the Masonic circuit.
Speaker 4: But like I said that, I'm sort of segueing into
Speaker 4: the broader astrological sort of millieu. Right and next, In fact,
Speaker 4: I got a really good opportunity in twenty twenty I've
Speaker 4: been I applied to speak at YUAC, which is the
Speaker 4: super Bowl of astrology conferences, and it's in Chicago. It's
Speaker 4: the big astro conference. So I'm speaking there in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty six. So I'm very excited about that, you know,
Speaker 4: and they in fact put me on a good slot too,
Speaker 4: I think on Saturday at like four thirty, right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: so you really looking forward to that. I think that's
Speaker 4: going to bring a lot of visibility to my work,
Speaker 4: you know, which is always nice.
Speaker 1: I definitely think that will help for sure. Congratulations, Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. What brought you to I guess what was
Speaker 1: the reason for you writing this book? Like, what was
Speaker 1: going to be different about this book than all the
Speaker 1: other go Gaatia books out there?
Speaker 4: Well, because I've been focusing on that the last few years,
Speaker 4: I've I in fact found a little chestnut that nobody
Speaker 4: has read and about before. So that's what, you know,
Speaker 4: that's kind of the aim. I think when you're writing
Speaker 4: a book, you want to have a novel thesis, something
Speaker 4: that hasn't been trampled all over for hundreds of years.
Speaker 4: And I found something that has never been worked up
Speaker 4: in the literature, and I've never heard anybody talk about it.
Speaker 4: So it's basically using the quineries, so the angelic and
Speaker 4: demonic five degree arc segments of the ecliptic and using
Speaker 4: those in astrological delineation. So if that sounds too specialized,
Speaker 4: I could say it another way. It's something that you
Speaker 4: can use to delineate a chart, right everybody, you know,
Speaker 4: how in regular just traditional astrology, everybody has the planets
Speaker 4: against the zodiac, and the planets are sort of colorized
Speaker 4: by the by the particular zodiac sign that they're in.
Speaker 4: It it sort of blends significations and changes the sort
Speaker 4: of quality of that planetary expression. Like if you have
Speaker 4: Jupiter in cancer, that's like different than having Jupiter in areas.
Speaker 4: You know, there's a total it's it's jubiterarian, but it's
Speaker 4: a different Jupiter. So so according to quinarian astrology, which
Speaker 4: is what I've been calling this, your planets are also
Speaker 4: in a certain quinery at any given time, Like you
Speaker 4: might have your son in the you know, fifteenth quinery,
Speaker 4: you know, and and it's just you know, depending on
Speaker 4: the angel or demon that rules that segment of the ecliptic,
Speaker 4: and they're five degrees each that that sort of colors
Speaker 4: the interpretation of that planet. Now, I was doing this
Speaker 4: a number of years ago. I was doing this probably
Speaker 4: ten years ago, and I was thinking about which quinery
Speaker 4: my planets were in, not just my son, but all
Speaker 4: your planets, right, And I was like, has anybody talked
Speaker 4: about this? Has this been something that people have you know,
Speaker 4: worked over already? And I found that that hasn't been
Speaker 4: the case, that there's no record of it in the literature.
Speaker 4: So I was like, you know, kind of a no brainer.
Speaker 4: I was like, I've got to write this book, you know.
Speaker 4: So that's kind of what started this project, is necessity
Speaker 4: really at first, because I wanted to do that for
Speaker 4: my own chart and the charts of people who I
Speaker 4: you know, I read their nativities for, you know, and
Speaker 4: I wanted to be able to tell them about the
Speaker 4: demons and angels. So it's a totally different perspective on, uh,
Speaker 4: the delineation of planets because instead of merely looking at
Speaker 4: them in the sign or in the decan, you could
Speaker 4: look at them more more even you know, exact, You
Speaker 4: can get an exact picture of them in a five
Speaker 4: degree arc segment as opposed to ten or thirty degrees
Speaker 4: ten for the decand thirty for the sign, you know.
Speaker 4: So it's just fine tuning things. And I was attracted
Speaker 4: to the idea.
Speaker 1: Nice is that too much?
Speaker 4: Is that too because I could break that down more.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you should have kept going like the Energizer bunny
Speaker 6: because I was you shouldn't even stop.
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you, uh yeah, well I understood
Speaker 1: where you're going with it, and I just wanted to say,
Speaker 1: like for the listeners and people even on the panel
Speaker 1: or aren't maybe even quite sure about the Croatia, maybe
Speaker 1: I should have asked this first. But I mean, it's
Speaker 1: really no big deal. What do you think the point
Speaker 1: of the gowai and the way you're looking at it, Like,
Speaker 1: what's the point of the book, Like what do you
Speaker 1: think that actually is? You know what I'm saying like that?
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, I think I do.
Speaker 6: So.
Speaker 4: I'm I believe in magic as an objective phenomenon, you know,
Speaker 4: so for me, it's not psychologized. I don't believe that
Speaker 4: the Goiesha, for example, the demons of the artist Goiesia.
Speaker 4: I believe that they have an objective ontology or reality
Speaker 4: of their own, you know, And it's not contingent on
Speaker 4: how like me psychologically projecting that into the world. So
Speaker 4: I believe in their reality, the demons reality, you know,
Speaker 4: as being real. You know that there are these demonic forces, right,
Speaker 4: these entities really and same thing with angels, though they
Speaker 4: might be a little more abstract like angels. They've been
Speaker 4: talked about from Ius all the way through John D.
Speaker 4: People have talked about the angels as being mathematical equations,
Speaker 4: you know, they're they're more like abstract mathematical entities, which
Speaker 4: makes sense to me. That's that doesn't lessen their their
Speaker 4: sort of reality as an entity just because they're abstract.
Speaker 4: You know, it's kind of a platonic thing. There's forms,
Speaker 4: and then they get more and more solid as you
Speaker 4: go down the scale from from the one to the
Speaker 4: no way realm. Yeah, exactly, and all the way down
Speaker 4: to like kabalistically what you would call malcoot or or
Speaker 4: I what's us A S S I S.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, actually you're talking about Plato in the one.
Speaker 1: I actually dropped a two our showing up Plutonius yesterday.
Speaker 1: Oh great, Yeah, I'm into that stuff for sure.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah. So all that to say that, obviously, the
Speaker 4: way that that the worldview that we inherit as modern
Speaker 4: day Westerners is one of matter and energy, you know,
Speaker 4: and one that is scientific but at the sort of
Speaker 4: peril of you know, this material paradigm. Right, So I
Speaker 4: believe that there should be room for the metaphysical, and
Speaker 4: that we don't need to think of it in terms
Speaker 4: of like, here's a popular thing the last twenty five
Speaker 4: years or so that quantum entanglement and theoretical physics and
Speaker 4: all this sort of stuff explains a way magic. I
Speaker 4: don't think that it does, because I look at magic,
Speaker 4: like it says in Agrippa the picka tricks all the
Speaker 4: way back. It says, magic is simply a cult causality.
Speaker 4: It's causality, but you can't see the causal agent, you know,
Speaker 4: So it's a hidden causality. You know, something happens as
Speaker 4: if by magic, you know, not like you know, me
Speaker 4: getting up and physically doing something or you know. So
Speaker 4: I think that I think that it's time to reclaim
Speaker 4: that worldview. And it's something that's difficult to change, of course,
Speaker 4: So this atheistic materialism is difficult to get over. It's
Speaker 4: difficult to you know, build upon that other than physically.
Speaker 4: But I think when we talk about magic, we're talking
Speaker 4: about metaphysics. It's beyond the physical realm. So if you
Speaker 4: if you try and express it or explain it as
Speaker 4: being quantum this or energy that, or psychologically this or that,
Speaker 4: you're you're automatically veering away from magic and you're into
Speaker 4: the physical again. So it's not a Medai. Does that
Speaker 4: make sense. It's not a it's not a physics, it's
Speaker 4: a metaphysics.
Speaker 1: I totally get that. Yeah, Jin Josh. If you guys
Speaker 1: want to ask anything specific, do.
Speaker 2: You I have a quick one, Jamie. Do you feel
Speaker 2: that angels occupy the same ontological or even cosmological space
Speaker 2: as the goet experience.
Speaker 4: No. I think of angels as being in this sort
Speaker 4: of beyond the oakdo ad, so the fixed stars in
Speaker 4: the zodiac or Hokma if you prefer, I look at
Speaker 4: the angels as being entities that are in the essentially
Speaker 4: the any attic realm, right that they are noetic and
Speaker 4: and further than that, I think of demons as being
Speaker 4: at or below the do ad, because of course you
Speaker 4: get aerial demons and fiery demons, but you also get
Speaker 4: stellar demons like those are that are found among the Deccans,
Speaker 4: the decanal demons, and now in the quinnaries like the
Speaker 4: of the ars go Issha, these goetic demons. They're also
Speaker 4: on or below the do Ad, the eighth sphere. So
Speaker 4: in the in your typical like Platonic and Kabbalistic models,
Speaker 4: right cosmological models, you find that that's kind of the
Speaker 4: cutoff point. Everything can be physical or astral up to
Speaker 4: the up to and including the do Ad, but beyond
Speaker 4: that you're ending, You're you're getting into the super celestial
Speaker 4: as a Grippa would call it. And these are these
Speaker 4: are entities that are you know, abstract sort of. So
Speaker 4: angels have always been described as that pretty much. And
Speaker 4: angels angelos right there it means messenger. They're messengers from
Speaker 4: the one to the through down to thysis what the
Speaker 4: Greeks would call it physis. And you know, again that
Speaker 4: Platonic model of the one or tohen and then the
Speaker 4: no edic realm, and then the the sort of astral
Speaker 4: us astral realm of us psyche and then down to.
Speaker 2: Uh, sorry, Jamie, when you're saying psyche, could you be
Speaker 2: referring to your sod or that Youde death.
Speaker 4: Connection yeah, I guess you could say in that zone, right,
Speaker 4: because that would be the planetary zone. When you go
Speaker 4: from Beina down to Ysoude. You're really talking about Saturn
Speaker 4: down to the Moon. So we happen to live in
Speaker 4: the sublunary world right where humans inhabit the sub lunar realm,
Speaker 4: that is to say, below the moon, so the astral
Speaker 4: realms and of Psyche, you know, would be between the
Speaker 4: Moon and all the way up into Hokmah, the fixed
Speaker 4: stars and the zodiac. So it's.
Speaker 2: You're one of the first ocultists. Sorry Jimmy, but you're
Speaker 2: one of the first ocultists I've really heard refer to
Speaker 2: Hokmah as being this place of fixed stars. I also
Speaker 2: refer to it as like a place of flux, a
Speaker 2: smoky place sometimes, but it's good to hear that. I'm
Speaker 2: not totally you know, out on an island, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's you know, I definitely think these models
Speaker 4: are compatible. And if you look at the Tree of Life,
Speaker 4: doesn't it Yeah, the fixed stars, fixed stars in the zodiac.
Speaker 4: If you look at the Tree of Life, it's really
Speaker 4: just the Ptolemaic cosmos with Malcouth being the the you know,
Speaker 4: the realm of the four Empedoclian elements, you know that
Speaker 4: are in a state of flux, a state of what
Speaker 4: Aristotle would call generation and corruption. And then once you
Speaker 4: get up to the moon and that sort of etheric
Speaker 4: sphere and beyond, then you're talking about you know, the
Speaker 4: astral or the realm, corresponding to psyche in the Platonic
Speaker 4: and neo Platonic cosmology, and uh yeah, going all the
Speaker 4: way up again to Hokma fixed stars in the zodiac,
Speaker 4: and then you have you know, uh, Cather which is
Speaker 4: like the ani attic zone or maybe the sort of
Speaker 4: maybe even beyond that to some extent, or maybe that
Speaker 4: would be on I'm so fine so far where you're
Speaker 4: really into that abstract angelic world, super celestial.
Speaker 1: It was like beyond like they're almost formless.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, abstract platonic an idea or a form capital
Speaker 4: I capital F.
Speaker 2: Could you say epanoya?
Speaker 4: May say that again, what.
Speaker 2: Do you think of using the word epanoya to describe
Speaker 2: what you're talking about?
Speaker 4: Epanoia? I haven't read that word, but I can kind
Speaker 4: of think of that. You're saying beyond the noose, right, yes, yeah,
Speaker 4: so beyond the noose. Yeah, I mean, because the news begins,
Speaker 4: if we're speaking kabalistically, the noetic realm begins after the
Speaker 4: fixed stars in the zodiac. We and this is something
Speaker 4: I really dig very deeply into in my book because
Speaker 4: when we're talking about that the intellectual world, right, the
Speaker 4: abstract intellectual world news or the noetic world. What's what's
Speaker 4: interesting about my book is that this is the first
Speaker 4: astrology that's actually dealing And this is one of the
Speaker 4: sort of hidden jewels of this book that I hope
Speaker 4: people understand is that I'm using the method of astrology, right,
Speaker 4: I'm astrologizing the noetic realm with this technique that's to
Speaker 4: my knowledge that's never been done before. You know, to
Speaker 4: get into this demonic and angelic astrology is to use
Speaker 4: the the method that has normally been applied to everything
Speaker 4: from Ysoude to Hokma that is to say, from really
Speaker 4: the world like the Malkuth or Asia all the way
Speaker 4: up to Hokmah, the fixed stars in the zodiac. That's
Speaker 4: where our magic has has been and our astrology has been.
Speaker 4: But this is to take astrology beyond the odoad. So
Speaker 4: now we're we're using the methods of astrology to work
Speaker 4: with angels and demons, so and I've never seen that before.
Speaker 4: So I think that's something that's of interest, is these
Speaker 4: these you know, philosophical implications of this sort of astrology,
Speaker 4: Like you have Agrippa for example. Agrippa has three books
Speaker 4: and they're cosmological because book one is element mental and
Speaker 4: sort of natural, the natural world, elemental world, that is
Speaker 4: to say, the sub lunar. The second book is sort
Speaker 4: of astral and celestial, that is to say, this zone
Speaker 4: between the moon and the fixed stars and the zodiac
Speaker 4: and everything in between, all the planets, and then beyond
Speaker 4: that is what a grip calls the super celestial. So
Speaker 4: that's that's the nouse or the noose, and that's this
Speaker 4: abstract plane, and that's where Plato's forms are. That's that's
Speaker 4: the realm of ideas. It's the intellectual world, and you
Speaker 4: have angels there, right. So if we're using the methods
Speaker 4: of astrology, but we're we are using that, but we're
Speaker 4: puncturing the okdo ad the a sphere and applying those
Speaker 4: methods for the first time, I believe astrologically. Does that
Speaker 4: make sense.
Speaker 2: It's really quite profound.
Speaker 4: What you're saying Actually, to be honest, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I thought so too. Right years ago, I was thinking
Speaker 4: about this stuff and I looked and nobody was talking
Speaker 4: about it. Nobody had written anything about it. I mean,
Speaker 4: I'm sure people have worked this before, but they they
Speaker 4: left no record. They left no record. So it's pretty
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's really interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, real quick too, not to get I guess, like
Speaker 1: too much of the book unless this is in there,
Speaker 1: I have no idea, but like, I guess, does this
Speaker 1: change or like, how would you ritualistically the way this
Speaker 1: is supposed to be done. Would it's still be is
Speaker 1: as like it's normally be suggested in the past, or
Speaker 1: does anything changed with that?
Speaker 4: Not too much? I mean, if you ever made like
Speaker 4: an angelic talisman, you know, have the sigil of the
Speaker 4: archangel on a talisman that you're creating right, that has
Speaker 4: been done right. But typically for an election, when you elect,
Speaker 4: when to do something an astrological election is when you
Speaker 4: preconceive of a time and day that you want to
Speaker 4: set a cycle in motion. When you do that, you
Speaker 4: could you know, you could use the chain of being
Speaker 4: essentially like the solar chain of being comes from the
Speaker 4: abstract sun, then into the the physical sun in space,
Speaker 4: and then into the animal mineral, vegetable world through like
Speaker 4: Saint John's war, roosters, lions, actual gold. You know, there's
Speaker 4: this chain. Every planet has a a chain that is
Speaker 4: stratified through the worlds, you know, from the intellectual the
Speaker 4: sun behind the sun, the idea of the sun, and
Speaker 4: then into the astral or celestial the actual sun, the
Speaker 4: you know, fiery ball that we see, and then down
Speaker 4: into below the below you sewed in the sub lunary world.
Speaker 4: That's where we find you know, like lions and roosters
Speaker 4: and Saint John's wort and everything that is on the
Speaker 4: solar chain or the Solar series I believe they called
Speaker 4: it SerII. You know, was like having to do with
Speaker 4: this chain of being, and of course Ficino dealt a
Speaker 4: lot with this, but it goes all the way back
Speaker 4: to the Neoplaitis as well, and the hermatists antiqukermatism.
Speaker 1: This it almost sounds like if you were to take
Speaker 1: like the full worlds are different. It was slightly like that.
Speaker 1: If you look at it cabalistically.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could definitely it tracks very nicely with the
Speaker 4: four worlds, where you have you have absolute as being
Speaker 4: the most abstract, and then Bria just a little more density,
Speaker 4: and then Yatsura which is kind of planetary and celestial,
Speaker 4: and then Asia which is you know, elemental and natural
Speaker 4: sub lunary. So everything everything in magic fits this sort
Speaker 4: of scale, right, everybody who's ever written about it, seriously,
Speaker 4: like all the Grimoire magicians and the people who compose
Speaker 4: this stuff, we're working on a very similar worldview. And
Speaker 4: if you're going to understand astrology and magic and alchemy,
Speaker 4: the three hermetic arts, right, astrology, alchemy, and the orgy
Speaker 4: or magic if you are that's a form of magic.
Speaker 4: It's a lot wider than that. But if you're going
Speaker 4: to understand the harmatic arts, you have to know the
Speaker 4: cosmology they're working with. You know, you have to know
Speaker 4: what world you're in essentially, and sometimes you have to
Speaker 4: stack your synthomata as they call it, which are representations
Speaker 4: of that let's say solar entity, right, you have you
Speaker 4: have to like be able to suspend those in a chain.
Speaker 4: If you're going to do say, say a talisman, Let's
Speaker 4: say you're going to make a talisman, you know you
Speaker 4: would do it. And again we'll just use the Sun
Speaker 4: because it's easy. If you're going to make a talisman,
Speaker 4: you have to do it when the sun is in
Speaker 4: Leo or maybe Aries, because the sun is exalted in
Speaker 4: areas and the Sun rules Leo. So I'd put the
Speaker 4: sun in one of those two signs. I would do
Speaker 4: this on a Sunday, which is the day ruled by
Speaker 4: the Sun, and I would I would do it during
Speaker 4: a solar hour. The hours of the day, the natural
Speaker 4: hours of the day. They expand and contract depending on daytime, nighttime,
Speaker 4: and the equinoctial points. But I would do it during
Speaker 4: a solar hour, and I would set up as much
Speaker 4: symtematic as possible. I would burn the appropriate fumigation. I
Speaker 4: would I would have I would have like a yellow candle.
Speaker 4: You know, I do this stuff all the time, making talismans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I've mentioned on the show that like even
Speaker 1: myself when I would make tealismans, like if I was like,
Speaker 1: let's say, putting Jupiter or Mercury together is a good mix,
Speaker 1: you know, I could pick like, you know, I'll do
Speaker 1: a Thursday on like the hour Mercury, or I'll do
Speaker 1: it on Wednesday on the hour of Jupiter, like when
Speaker 1: I make the talisman, and like, yeah, I may not
Speaker 1: even do the ritual then, but I'm gonna pick that
Speaker 1: day in time to even construct the talisman to make
Speaker 1: it for the ritual that I'm eventually gonna do, and
Speaker 1: then that will even match. That will even match again
Speaker 1: the hour the planets that I just made for the talisman.
Speaker 1: And like you said, I would construct my own incense.
Speaker 1: I'd make my own mixes, and the candles would match
Speaker 1: the colors. Sometimes even the ul the cloth I'd use
Speaker 1: would even still match colors. I would have interchange the stuff.
Speaker 1: I was very you know, I guess overdne but it
Speaker 1: works for me. Yeah, yeah, but that's it's great to
Speaker 1: hear somebody else say that.
Speaker 4: I was like, oh shit, yeah, it's a good practice, right.
Speaker 4: And you know, a lot of people in the grim March,
Speaker 4: so here's a little bit of a mix up, right,
Speaker 4: A lot of people who are more familiar with the
Speaker 4: operative magical procedures, you know, they're they're familiar with grimoire
Speaker 4: magic and stuff like that. They sort of stop at
Speaker 4: planetary day and hour, you know, Sunday on an hour
Speaker 4: of the sun, and that's kind of the you know,
Speaker 4: and that's good, right, But if you want like an
Speaker 4: eight or nine point sun, you know, a very strong talisman,
Speaker 4: then you've got to do it in Leo or Ares,
Speaker 4: and you have to do it in like the bound
Speaker 4: or term of the Sun, and maybe even also in
Speaker 4: the decan, the solar decan, if there is one in Leo. Right,
Speaker 4: So if you have decan term or yeah, decan term
Speaker 4: and the triplicity rulership like the sun by day and
Speaker 4: and you also have like the day and hour, and
Speaker 4: you have the Sun in domicile or in exaltation, you
Speaker 4: want to stack as much of that as possible, and
Speaker 4: it goes beyond merely having the planetary day and hour.
Speaker 4: If you're doing a.
Speaker 1: Whole chart, actually you could get crazy stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, you can get you can get totally crazy.
Speaker 1: Did you do you just random question? Sorry? Do you
Speaker 1: have an experience with the hexagrammatul.
Speaker 4: M m No. Okay, that's literally that's literally above my
Speaker 4: grade right now.
Speaker 1: Okay, I just know what's for planet. I use it
Speaker 1: for planetary and energy.
Speaker 4: So I'm just wondering if I've seen it used and
Speaker 4: I understand how you know the hexagram and the six
Speaker 4: six planets with the Sun in the middle. So I
Speaker 4: understand the premise of it. I just haven't personally practiced
Speaker 4: that because I'm just coming up to the portal grade
Speaker 4: in Golden Dawn right now, so I haven't. I haven't
Speaker 4: worked any of the adept Die grades yet, gotcha. But
Speaker 4: I've been in. I've been in for like seven I
Speaker 4: think I've been in seven or eight years, and you know,
Speaker 4: I've been just going through it kind of slowly, in
Speaker 4: with an organization, not like self initiation or whatever. I'm
Speaker 4: in a Golden Dawn temple that meets and we're active
Speaker 4: and stuff, but it's just taking time. I in fact
Speaker 4: have to go to uh Victoria, British Columbia to get
Speaker 4: my portal grade because that's where one of the chiefs is,
Speaker 4: you know, So it's I have to fly for my
Speaker 4: grades typically.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, I was just I was just wondering because
Speaker 1: of the planetary stuff.
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, we kind of veered off there, but yeah,
Speaker 4: it sounds like you know, something of the Golden dawns
Speaker 4: Oh sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Well I was in the OTO
Speaker 1: for a minute, so I mean, oh, I was too.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, yeah, it was about it was about twelve
Speaker 4: or thirteen years ago. I was in to Hoodie Lodge.
Speaker 1: In New York City, fuck Otty, that's where I was, man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I got my minerval on first first degree there.
Speaker 1: Holy, I'll talk to you. I'm just wondering who the
Speaker 1: lodge mason wasn't that's interesting?
Speaker 5: All right?
Speaker 1: Imagine I was there with you one did even realize
Speaker 1: they'd be fucking bugged out? All right?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: So continue? Uh back to the Goisha.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was just asking if there was any different difference
Speaker 1: in rituals, and you were in the ritual the way
Speaker 1: that it's done, and you said no, So uh yeah,
Speaker 1: you answered my question. Does anybody else.
Speaker 4: Have any the way it's done in the Goishia? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 4: you could use the same practices that you would use
Speaker 4: in Mather's translation of the Gosha. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's basically what I was getting at. Is it
Speaker 1: gonna change? Look at that one.
Speaker 4: It doesn't negate any of that nice nice all right, No,
Speaker 4: that's great, but but it adds the astrological components. So
Speaker 4: that's another thing that I think is important about this
Speaker 4: work is that, you know, people think they can get
Speaker 4: by knowing the minimum of astrology, and that's kind of
Speaker 4: not the case. If you're going to skimp on anything,
Speaker 4: you should do it elsewhere because you need to have
Speaker 4: the astrological stuff in order. There's no way getting around.
Speaker 4: If you're going to do proper alchemy and proper magic,
Speaker 4: you kind of have to know astrology pretty well. You
Speaker 4: have to be proficient, right or or there's a lot
Speaker 4: of room for error. But you can't make a talisman
Speaker 4: not knowing anything about astrology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it would help to have
Speaker 1: a little bit understanding.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and and cosmologically too, like we were talking about,
Speaker 4: you have to have a picture. You have to have
Speaker 4: a world picture. You have to have a paradigm, a
Speaker 4: cosmological paradigm that you that you understand. And it could
Speaker 4: be different. Like, well, here's something I talk about in
Speaker 4: there as well, and and in other places, is that
Speaker 4: is that astrology and magic and alchemy these are not
Speaker 4: geocentric models. They're georeferential, you know, Like I tell people
Speaker 4: this all the time. If you're looking let's say you're
Speaker 4: out in space and you're at the celestial north and
Speaker 4: you're looking down at our solar system, so you see
Speaker 4: the sun in the middle. You see the planets going
Speaker 4: around it, right, Can you visualize that you're in celestial
Speaker 4: north looking down in our solar system. All you have
Speaker 4: to do to astrologize is take the pin out of
Speaker 4: the Sun and stick it in the Earth and keep
Speaker 4: all the other motions the same. You're just envisioning the
Speaker 4: Earth as the stationary object. Every other movement is the same.
Speaker 4: Nobody asks you to believe anything that's wrong or antiquated.
Speaker 4: You don't have to believe that it's geocentric because it's
Speaker 4: not geocentric, it's georeferential. Because the Earth, as earthlings, that's
Speaker 4: our locus of human consciousness. The locus of human consciousness
Speaker 4: is the Earth. We experience the cosmos from the perspective
Speaker 4: of the Earth. So again, nobody's asking me to believe
Speaker 4: anything that's wrong or you know that's like anti Copernican
Speaker 4: or anything. So you know, I mean not that we
Speaker 4: not that we need science to defend our magic. In fact,
Speaker 4: once you apply science to magic, it ceases to become
Speaker 4: magic and it just becomes physics. Right, So you don't
Speaker 4: need you don't need the atheistic materialism and nihilism that
Speaker 4: modern scientific paradigm's supply right or imply. Yeah, I've got to.
Speaker 4: I've got a pretty radical view about that sort of stuff,
Speaker 4: like I don't need to psychologize magic or astrology. I
Speaker 4: don't need to quantumize it, or I believe in it
Speaker 4: as it is. You know, it's a metaphysics, so I'm
Speaker 4: not trying to explain it away by quantum and physics
Speaker 4: and theoretical physics and psychology. You know a lot of
Speaker 4: people you'd be surprised a lot of people do that.
Speaker 4: I know tons of people who are practicing magicians, let's say,
Speaker 4: or and alchemists and astrologers who try and put either
Speaker 4: a psychological or a physical a sort of veneer on
Speaker 4: it so they don't feel embarrassed. Yeah, I can see.
Speaker 1: Did anybody have any questions?
Speaker 3: I was wondering on sort of like a nuts and
Speaker 3: bolts question of implementing the angels and demons into an
Speaker 3: astrological reading. Have you found that it provides nuances or enhancements,
Speaker 3: or even maybe might contrary, might provide a contrary reading
Speaker 3: in some cases, or can you break down any of that?
Speaker 4: Sure? Yeah, so it's pretty much the way that you
Speaker 4: would use planets and zions. You could use a planet
Speaker 4: in a quinary. So uh, let's say, you know, and
Speaker 4: I give many examples in the book, like let's and
Speaker 4: you could use it in elections too, like if you
Speaker 4: want to want to set a cycle in motion, you
Speaker 4: can when you're electing your chart that show you know,
Speaker 4: for some point in the future when you want to, say,
Speaker 4: consecrate a talisman or pick a herb, you could use
Speaker 4: the planets in these specific quinaries because each of them
Speaker 4: is ruled or governed by an angel demon pair. There's
Speaker 4: an angelic sort of there's the angel that's from the
Speaker 4: schemhamphr Ash, and there's the demon that's from the Artiskoesha.
Speaker 4: Now here's I should have said this right at the beginning.
Speaker 4: The model that I'm working with is your typical pre
Speaker 4: Enlightenment model, right, So from antiquity all the way through
Speaker 4: the Enlightenment. Of course, that the Enlightenment, which I don't
Speaker 4: even like the name of that movement, the Enlightenment was
Speaker 4: detrimental to magic and astrology in alchemy because that's where
Speaker 4: we veer into atheistic materialism. And that's why, all right,
Speaker 4: here's something interesting, that's why that's when astrology becomes esoteric.
Speaker 4: That's where alchemy becomes esoteric and where magic becomes esoteric
Speaker 4: after the Enlightenment, because they were not esoteric before the Enlightenment.
Speaker 4: They were just part of your typical worldview, right, So
Speaker 4: once these become rejected sciences, which is what I think
Speaker 4: Wuter Honograph talked about the dust bin of rejected sciences,
Speaker 4: and that's what you get when after the Enlightenment, because
Speaker 4: it's been sort of, you know, a species of positivism
Speaker 4: has moved in there and made it so the enchanted
Speaker 4: world is finished, you know. So it's for this stuff
Speaker 4: you have to have an enchanted worldview in order to
Speaker 4: you know, do it in the context of how the
Speaker 4: ancients did it. You have to have an enchanted worldview.
Speaker 4: If you don't have that, you're you're not you're not
Speaker 4: working a metaphysic. You're messing around with some sort of
Speaker 4: theoretical physics, physics or some sort of psychology, you know.
Speaker 4: But anyway, I was saying that, why was I saying
Speaker 4: that you had a question?
Speaker 3: Well, I was blown away just now by your piercing
Speaker 3: the label of the Enlightenment era and pointing out that
Speaker 3: that's actually the beginning of the atheistic materialism.
Speaker 6: Bravo, right, great point.
Speaker 3: Well, but but I was asking just how.
Speaker 4: Including the.
Speaker 3: Implementing this aspect of readings or or might even provide
Speaker 3: a contrary idea to the established reading that you might.
Speaker 4: Get sure exactly. So, yes, it changes things, and it
Speaker 4: adds nuanced you know, and ith you know, it could
Speaker 4: put a finer point on things. I've never found it
Speaker 4: to be contradictory per se. But you know a lot
Speaker 4: of this is it's a hermeneutics, right, It's interpreted, so
Speaker 4: we have to we have to apply. That's the art
Speaker 4: of astrology.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: There's there's the science y sort of stuff, which is
Speaker 4: all the math and the cosmological stuff. But the art
Speaker 4: of astrology, which I think of astrology as primarily being
Speaker 4: an art. The art of astrology is the interpretation, you know,
Speaker 4: like a planet in a sign in a house and
Speaker 4: how it is aspected by other planets so or yeah,
Speaker 4: so yeah, the couineries kind of change that or they
Speaker 4: accentuate that on a finer point because you're dealing with
Speaker 4: a smaller arc segment. But here's one thing that might
Speaker 4: be helpful to your listeners is astrology has become something
Speaker 4: really gross it's like a hippified New Age kind of
Speaker 4: fluff that's always positive and everything's an opportunity. You know.
Speaker 4: That's twentieth century posts theosophical astrology, which I think is garbage.
Speaker 4: The astrology of the last one hundred or two years
Speaker 4: is primarily trash, and it's based on like what they
Speaker 4: call the twelve letter twelve letter model or something I forget,
Speaker 4: twelve letter alphabet or something where it's like they they
Speaker 4: have such a misunderstanding that they could say that Mars
Speaker 4: equals Areas equals the first house, you know, like and
Speaker 4: do all their delineations based on this, you know, super simplistic,
Speaker 4: overly simplified perspective, right whereas you know you want to
Speaker 4: think of it. The best way to explain it is
Speaker 4: the theater analogy. Anybody familiar with the theater analogy in astrology,
Speaker 4: I'll tell you.
Speaker 6: What it is.
Speaker 4: It's it's it's planets in signs, in houses, and having
Speaker 4: aspects with each other. The four you know, planets, signs, houses,
Speaker 4: and aspects, the four major elements of astrology. Planets are
Speaker 4: in science, they're in houses, and they aspect each other.
Speaker 4: Is the same as an actor in wardrobe on a
Speaker 4: set and having dialogue. Is that's it's kind of one
Speaker 4: for one. The actor has wordrobon and they're on a
Speaker 4: set or in a certain place on the stage, and
Speaker 4: they're having dialogue with other actors. Right, that's the same
Speaker 4: as a planet in a sign in a house and
Speaker 4: having aspects with each other. So it's kind of it's
Speaker 4: a good analogy to use because imagine, you know, imagine
Speaker 4: the actor he or she puts on a wardrobe and
Speaker 4: that sort of changes or colorizes their natural planetary expression,
Speaker 4: and then they're they're on a set like say you've
Speaker 4: got a kitchenett over here and a couch and a
Speaker 4: writing desk. You know that the actor could be at
Speaker 4: any number of those houses or sets, and then they
Speaker 4: have aspects the planet's aspect and the actors have dialogue.
Speaker 4: So it's I don't know if I did a great
Speaker 4: job of explaining that, but it's called the theater analogy.
Speaker 4: Did that make sense?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah it maybe me. Think about God, I
Speaker 1: forgot what they were called. I think didn't Crowley do
Speaker 1: some stuff on like these like drawn out plays that
Speaker 1: are kind of on planetary energies.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he had the rights of a lusis and all
Speaker 4: of them they had very they had very little to
Speaker 4: do with the leuses. There were more like his, his
Speaker 4: his sort of invention, and he hit. He did it
Speaker 4: for each of the planets. I've seen the right of
Speaker 4: Mars in Santa Fe one time.
Speaker 1: Ice. That's cool. Uh, anybody else want to ask?
Speaker 4: Now? Is it? Let me ask?
Speaker 1: Is this?
Speaker 4: I'm really trying to make sense and trying to be clear,
Speaker 4: but I have I got to tell you, it's really
Speaker 4: difficult to do to be clear when you're talking about
Speaker 4: this stuff that's kind of abstruse. It's kind of specialized.
Speaker 4: Like I could tell you that my book, The Astrological Goesha,
Speaker 4: I do a full on astrological orientation. I do a
Speaker 4: Kabbalistic orientation. I talk about magic and and really build
Speaker 4: it up from zero. You don't have to know anything
Speaker 4: to get something out of this book because I kind
Speaker 4: of go through all that. While while I don't have
Speaker 4: the time or space to really build up, uh, the
Speaker 4: entirety of an astrological worldview, I do enough to where
Speaker 4: you could read the book and it makes sense. Obviously
Speaker 4: you could probably tell I'm pretty opinionated about this stuff,
Speaker 4: and I think that's probably unattractive as well.
Speaker 1: But I'm just making a claim, right.
Speaker 6: Basics then, right, m hmm. You just they said, well
Speaker 6: stick to the basics.
Speaker 7: You stick to the basics in your first and in
Speaker 7: which book that you say, like the foundations, like what
Speaker 7: the basics is of it?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, And I really tried to have out of
Speaker 4: all my books, this has this one. I have the
Speaker 4: best voice. I really worked on my voice for this,
Speaker 4: my literature voice, right, Like, I'm very clear. I try
Speaker 4: to be transparent, you know. I just talk about the
Speaker 4: ideas and I try and do it in a way
Speaker 4: that is accessible. So whereas in some of my Masonic books,
Speaker 4: I was very cruel to the reader. You know. I
Speaker 4: used a lot of you know, fifty dollars words, and
Speaker 4: they were the right words. They were the specialized word
Speaker 4: for what I was talking about. But nobody knows that stuff.
Speaker 1: No, I hear what you're saying. Yeah, I get what
Speaker 1: you're saying.
Speaker 3: You're mentioning Jamie about I don't want to put the
Speaker 3: term in there, but just the overall dilution of astrology
Speaker 3: in the last one hundred and two hundred years. I
Speaker 3: wonder what your contemporaries in the Masonic organizations, what they
Speaker 3: felt about astrology and total or maybe that they had
Speaker 3: some insights about it that were contrary.
Speaker 4: Most Masons don't know anything about astrology, you know, so
Speaker 4: good or bad, modern or traditional.
Speaker 3: Most they weren't necessarily against it because it was hippie fied.
Speaker 4: I think that wasn't even you know, an issue that
Speaker 4: was raised. They were, if anything, right, Well, here's what
Speaker 4: Masons are interested in. They're interested in the cosmological symbolism
Speaker 4: and the sort of precessional symbolism that's different than the astrology.
Speaker 4: They're more into the cosmological stuff, and they are into
Speaker 4: this cosmological particularly precessional symbolism is rampant in Masonic ritual
Speaker 4: and art. You know what I mean by that is
Speaker 4: Freemasonry's Anto Lucas. The year of light is four thousand BCE.
Speaker 4: That's so now we're in the masonically, we're in the
Speaker 4: year sixty twenty eight Anna Lucas. That's when you see
Speaker 4: a Masonic document or a cornerstone, they typically give the
Speaker 4: anti Lucas and this year they would say sixty twenty
Speaker 4: or I'm sorry, sixty twenty what a wait at five? Yeah,
Speaker 4: sixty twenty five Because you're just adding four thousand to
Speaker 4: this date. So if you go back to that first
Speaker 4: year of Anti Lucas, it's four thousand BCE, which means
Speaker 4: you're in the Torrean precessional age. That means Taurus is
Speaker 4: rising on the eastern horizon at the vernal equinox, you know,
Speaker 4: the spring equinox, the traditional beginning of the year. That's
Speaker 4: where the sun was rising in Taurus equinoctially at that time.
Speaker 4: So their symbolism supporting that in masonry, you know, and
Speaker 4: it's very like it's definitely there, you know, I'm not
Speaker 4: just kind of trying to find it, you know, and
Speaker 4: and you know, accentuate it because it's already it's already there.
Speaker 4: I mean they use the tetramorph the lion, the bull,
Speaker 4: the man, and the eagle, you know, for the four
Speaker 4: fixed signs, and that's part of the symbolism, and not
Speaker 4: just in masonry, but in Christianity in a lot of traditions.
Speaker 1: I think I've even seen that on two all the
Speaker 1: time too.
Speaker 4: Oh it's yeah. In the World card they're up in
Speaker 4: the corners. M hm.
Speaker 1: When it comes to well, uh, do you practice sole
Speaker 1: amount of magic?
Speaker 4: Then?
Speaker 1: Are you you know, how do you view that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I've I've done some of those operations,
Speaker 4: but well.
Speaker 1: I would assume, like, is that how you go about
Speaker 1: with the You're working with the Gaisia just through sol amount.
Speaker 4: Of Well, so I don't work it exactly the way
Speaker 4: it is in the Goieshia, because my focus is more
Speaker 4: Greco Egyptian magic and like you would find in the PGM,
Speaker 4: but also medieval Perso Arabic magic. I like, that's my
Speaker 4: favorite stuff, is the hermetic magic of antiquity and the
Speaker 4: hermetic magic of the Islamic Golden Age. Basically when you
Speaker 4: had when you had actually the last holdout of the
Speaker 4: antique hermatists was in I want to say, the year
Speaker 4: six hundred or nine hundred. Right in there somewhere you
Speaker 4: had what they what they were known as, was the
Speaker 4: Sabians of Heran, the Sabians of Haran. Iran is this
Speaker 4: place that's in eastern Turkey. That was the last place
Speaker 4: where you had Hermetic paganism. That was an unbroken chain,
Speaker 4: unbroken chain stretching from Hermi's trist Ma Justice through like
Speaker 4: the Neoplatonists, et cetera, through the Hermetists and all the
Speaker 4: way up to the Sabians of Heran in an unbroken transmission.
Speaker 4: And that's what we call hermetism. That's antique hermatism, which
Speaker 4: is the you know, the doctrines of Hermis trist Ma justice.
Speaker 4: But the way you get hermeticism, her Meticism is different
Speaker 4: than hermatism is after the fall of the Byzantine. So
Speaker 4: the Sabians of Heran got snuffed out and there goes
Speaker 4: the last of antique hermatism, and it was it was
Speaker 4: totally defunct for for let me see how many years,
Speaker 4: about eight hundred seven or eight hundred years, and then
Speaker 4: the fall of the Byzantine happens, and then all that
Speaker 4: Platonic and Hermetic literature comes to the the court to
Speaker 4: Medici where you where Marsilio Ficino starts to translate that stuff.
Speaker 4: And this this sparks a new Hermetic revival, and that
Speaker 4: in turn sparks the Renaissance. You wouldn't get a Renaissance
Speaker 4: without the Hermetic revival in Florence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Medici's paid a fina to do that. Well,
Speaker 1: they paid Yeah, Yeah, he did Platos right, I think
Speaker 1: he did both of the Indians. No, did he translate
Speaker 1: any Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he did some platonis. He definitely did
Speaker 4: the Hermetic corpus. I mean maybe even the Discourse on
Speaker 4: the eighth and ninth, but I know he did the court.
Speaker 4: What we realized, what we tend to refer to as
Speaker 4: the Corpus hermeticum is those seventeen books, the seventeen books
Speaker 4: of the Hermetic corpus, the popular ones that you get,
Speaker 4: they're typically together, you know, there's like seventeen books and
Speaker 4: Marsilio Ficino translated those, and that was just blowing everybody's mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I had a huge impact.
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, well he started I mean you could
Speaker 4: say he started the Renaissance, so that's kind of a yeah,
Speaker 4: kind of an impact.
Speaker 1: Uh oh, yeah, that was interesting, all right. I was
Speaker 1: just wondering if because then that we get into the
Speaker 1: whole thing, like, you know, depending if you're doing I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, the psalomonic I was gonna like, are you
Speaker 1: actually you know, getting the triangle? Do you think you're actually.
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, you know, I don't have the gear, but
Speaker 4: I've done goetic operations typically, you know, I've used taro
Speaker 4: to do that, because if you have a tarot deck,
Speaker 4: you can make a temple. A temple is a cosmological structure, right.
Speaker 4: A temple is you have the altar as an axis MOUNDI,
Speaker 4: and you have directionality from there, the cardinal directions, and
Speaker 4: you're basically, well, that's what theurgy is. It's a demiurgy
Speaker 4: that we participate with God. It's it's a theurgy is
Speaker 4: working with God or working as God. So you're creating
Speaker 4: a cosmos. And if you're creating a cosmos, that's that's
Speaker 4: a demiurgy, right, And that's that's why Eomboloicus called magic
Speaker 4: or theurgy microcosmogenesis. You said, creating a little world microcosmogenesis.
Speaker 4: So every time you do a magical operation, you're basically
Speaker 4: you know, if you're doing like you're banishing ritual or
Speaker 4: whatever you do, you're essentially making a cosmos. Uh and
Speaker 4: an axis moondy. I bring that up because because tarot
Speaker 4: cards have a cosmological aspect to them. You know where
Speaker 4: if you take the pip cards, there's thirty there's thirty
Speaker 4: six pip cards and those correspond to the decans or faces.
Speaker 4: The thirty six faces, thirty six decans. The you have
Speaker 4: all the planets in there. You know, the planets. You
Speaker 4: have the you have the Moon with the High Priestess,
Speaker 4: you have Mercury with the Magis or the Magician and
Speaker 4: so forth. You have the seven visible planets, you have
Speaker 4: all the zodiacal signs, like like the Emperor is Ares. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and you have three of the elements. So yeah, so
Speaker 4: you're basically you can use tarot deck to make a
Speaker 4: working space. And I've done a lot of that, you know,
Speaker 4: in the absence of getting all the gear.
Speaker 1: I've used tarot Tarot cards almost kind of like talismans
Speaker 1: to try to get to try to use them to
Speaker 1: to kind of represent what I'm trying to get out,
Speaker 1: Like like I use more than one card sometimes, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: and yeah, like again like you were even saying, I
Speaker 1: would use it even for the attributions on the card
Speaker 1: too as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I use g D attributions. There's a lot
Speaker 4: of different method There's the continental or French correspondences to
Speaker 4: the tarot, which Eliphis Levy used. Valentine Tomberg, who wrote
Speaker 4: Meditations on the Tarot, he used those. Yeah, a lot
Speaker 4: of people have all those French Martinists and rescreations, they
Speaker 4: used continental attributions. I prefer the Golden Dawn attributions from
Speaker 4: the Cipher manuscript the original ciphers, right, yeah. Yeah. In fact,
Speaker 4: one of the chiefs of our Golden Dawn Order did
Speaker 4: the the totally exhaustive and definitive version of the the
Speaker 4: Cyber Manuscripts and published it a number of years ago.
Speaker 4: And it goes out of print sometimes and it's like
Speaker 4: three hundred bucks for you know, one hundred and twenty
Speaker 4: page paperback. I forgot. I was lucky I got. I
Speaker 4: got it when it was like nineteen bucks or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of orders have them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, those Cipher manuscripts is where we get.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like even the oto basically suffering that's cipher and
Speaker 1: then technically.
Speaker 4: Right, yeah and O t o. So Crowley built upon
Speaker 4: the Golden Dawn correspondences, except he changed some things. He
Speaker 4: changed like Zody, he moved it. He switched Zadi with
Speaker 4: I think the Emperor, and he switched those Remember how
Speaker 4: he says in the in the the what do you
Speaker 4: call it, the little Red Book that you get the
Speaker 4: Book of the Law. In the Book of the Law,
Speaker 4: he said, he said, Zadi is not the star. So
Speaker 4: he switched it with the Hermit or the rather the
Speaker 4: the what do you call him? The Emperor? Yeah, so
Speaker 4: I don't like that. I don't like that correspondence. I
Speaker 4: like the Golden Dawn one. But uh, but if you're
Speaker 4: ot O, you end up, you know, sometimes using that switch, you.
Speaker 1: Know, and know like in the Tarot that he switches
Speaker 1: a few things too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well the Golden Dawn switched the uh the
Speaker 4: strength and uh which one was it? Strength? And I think, uh.
Speaker 1: Justice, yes, yeah. Yeah. Well one thing real quick, since
Speaker 1: I have you on the show, is somebody who's affiliated
Speaker 1: with the Golden doing did Alas and Croley? Right, the
Speaker 1: Pentagram and the Hexagram rituals? No, he did not know
Speaker 1: so many people think like he did, like every all
Speaker 1: those rituals he wrote.
Speaker 4: You know, here's something interesting about that. A lot of
Speaker 4: people say, a lot of people just refer to it
Speaker 4: as the Lesser Banishing Ye did they call it the
Speaker 4: lb r P as if that's the only mode of
Speaker 4: that ritual it's in the Golden Dawn. They called it
Speaker 4: the lesser Ritual of the Pentagram. And you had invoking
Speaker 4: and vanishing modes, you had all the elemental modes, including
Speaker 4: ether or spirit. So there's actually ten there's ten different
Speaker 4: modes of that lesser ritual of the pentagram, depending on
Speaker 4: what you want to do. What if you want to
Speaker 4: what if you're taking a test, like you have to
Speaker 4: take a test, I would do an invoking air ritual.
Speaker 4: So instead of doing that earth pentagram that people do,
Speaker 4: the vanishing earth pentagram, I would do an invoking air
Speaker 4: pentagram because you're invoking the intellect, you know. So it's
Speaker 4: actually it's actually quite quite a quite a nice ritual.
Speaker 1: I mean, for a while, I actually enjoyed that.
Speaker 4: Yeah mm, very useful, very simple and pragmatic.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, oh no, I get what you're saying.
Speaker 1: That's cool.
Speaker 5: I'd ask one I hate to portray things, but could
Speaker 5: I ask one more romant question. So within the lodge,
Speaker 5: can you maybe speculate for a moment, because when you
Speaker 5: said the lodge could be kind of constructed with the
Speaker 5: major trump cards as how I interpreted it, I was curious, then,
Speaker 5: do you think that the movements of the officers within
Speaker 5: during a lodge ceremony is that somehow analogous to like
Speaker 5: the movement of planets and things. Because I've kind of
Speaker 5: wondered this in my own mind.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's what they call circumambulation, and it is. Yeah,
Speaker 4: some of that can be seen as cosmic, you know,
Speaker 4: like particularly the circumambulations of the candidate during the third degree.
Speaker 4: The third degree has particular movements, some of which are
Speaker 4: are like you go into the underworld and and you
Speaker 4: have in fact, you have the senior deacon who conducts
Speaker 4: the candidate, and the senior deacon is mercurial, so he's
Speaker 4: like the mercurial sort of exemplar, and that's one of
Speaker 4: the hermetic points in the craft of freemasonry out of many, right,
Speaker 4: But because you know how mercury, Mercury guides the sun
Speaker 4: into the underworld, Mercury and Venus are always within twenty
Speaker 4: seven and forty eight degrees of the sun, respectively. Mercury
Speaker 4: is always within twenty seven degrees and Venus is always
Speaker 4: within forty eight degrees of the sun. So when you
Speaker 4: get that primary motion they call it rising in the east,
Speaker 4: setting in the west, call me in the south, and
Speaker 4: setting it in the west, you'll find that mercury is
Speaker 4: the conductor of the sun. So that particular circumambulation has
Speaker 4: a pretty concrete planetary interpretation, But there are others, Yeah, that.
Speaker 5: Was lovely, Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Thanks. Uh oh no, it's it's back again and some
Speaker 1: other noise now too, so we'll probably just wrap it up.
Speaker 1: Oh it's good enough anyway. Uh yeah, uh yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess so real quick, Jamie, let people know where they
Speaker 1: can find all your stuff. Whatever you want to try
Speaker 1: to plug.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do have a I hate Facebook, so I
Speaker 4: use my sister in laws. I use my sister in
Speaker 4: law's account and she lets me have like my author
Speaker 4: page appendant to her account. So I do have an
Speaker 4: author page, but I can't get messages or anything like that.
Speaker 4: So but it does. I do put important events up there,
Speaker 4: you know. I get on there about once a week
Speaker 4: or so and put all events up there. And I
Speaker 4: did make an event for my book release too on
Speaker 4: September twenty third, So if you want to come to
Speaker 4: that you could just yeah, and then and then my website,
Speaker 4: please visit Jamie Paul Lamb dot com, j I M
Speaker 4: J A I M E P A U L l
Speaker 4: A m B dot com.
Speaker 1: Listen and I'll make sure I include that in the bottom.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and everybody else that was on the show.
Speaker 1: I will include the show notes in the bottom. I
Speaker 1: will include your website and all the other stuff that
Speaker 1: you left. I'll make sure that those links are in
Speaker 1: the bottom.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much again, Jamie for coming on very
Speaker 1: interesting take on this and it's you know, it piqued
Speaker 1: my interest. It definitely might be something I'll look into
Speaker 1: a little bit more. Actually, thanks so much for having me. No, no,
Speaker 1: for sure, for sure. It's very uh, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's the end of another recult reject and
Speaker 1: until the next one, everybody be well later mhm.