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Speaker 1: All right, what's going on, Let's do another episode of

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Adventures in DevOps Born. How's it going.

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Speaker 2: Uh, it's a pretty good and Uh. I actually have

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a fact we're all prepared this week. Uh, and that

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is we've gotten upgrade to our website, adventures in DevOps

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dot com. So if you're listening to the podcast via

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a different source and you probably don't never see it,

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you know, here's an opportunity. Uh, you know, don't pay

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too much attention to it. But I think it's much

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better than where we were at before.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, that's cool.

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Speaker 3: And do you make the new website. I had a

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part of the.

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Speaker 1: Dev chat, had a hand in it. Hi, Jillian, welcome back.

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Speaker 3: Hello, thank you for having me back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how's it been going.

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Speaker 3: It's good. It's good.

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Speaker 4: We had like the snow apocalypse here last week, but

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this week we're good. We're back to just snow right on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This is my first year living up north and I've

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been so happy with the fact that I bought a snowblower.

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That's been so much fun. But I don't think.

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Speaker 3: About getting one for the driveway. But I haven't.

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Speaker 4: I haven't quite done it yet because there's guys that

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come to plow so.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, highly recommended. It's just a great feeling, just chugging

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along behind it, blasting the snow. So, Matt Gowie, welcome.

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Happy to have you on a show.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks for having me. Nice to meet y'all be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, Matt, you are you own master Point consulting company, right,

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so give us a little bit of the background on that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I've run Masterpoints since the end of twenty sixteen.

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For a long time it was me as a solo consultant,

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and then around very beginning of twenty twenty two, I

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kind of started to build a team. So we're a

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boutique consulting shop. We're entirely focused on infrastructure as code nowadays.

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What that means is particularly terror form and open TOFU

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because those are the market winners in infrastructure as code today.

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And then we do a little bit of work with

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Polumi and yeah, we help our clients automate, migrate, implement

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best practices, and really help them build the right workflows

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on infrastructure so that they don't have that as a

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bottleneck and they can help their application engineers move fast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's like almost a decade, right, it's close.

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Speaker 1: You must have seen some.

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Speaker 2: Wild changes that have occurred in the space over that time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's been fun.

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Speaker 6: I got into you know, I always had a background

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in DevOps. I started in startups where you just a

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you wear fifteen different hats and you do whatever you

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can to help the team move forward. But I didn't

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get into infrastructure as code specifically. I was really big

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an answerable until like twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen maybe,

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and then I around zero goot eleven is when I

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got into terrorforms specifically, and I was like light bulb,

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got got to get into this more.

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Speaker 5: This is the way to do things for sure.

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Speaker 1: So I know that, like consultant is like one of

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the common career paths for people in our industry, and

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the big challenge there is always how do you find clients?

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You know? And is this a consulting arrangement where I'm

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technically a full time employee but I don't get any

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of the benefits. So how how does it look from

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your perspective, like what do you look for in a client?

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How do you approach this whole problem?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think being solo is very different than running

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an agency.

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Speaker 5: But I think one truism, one you know.

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Speaker 6: Fact of life that I've found is that you know,

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people do business with who they know and who they trust.

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Speaker 5: So referrals are always king within consulting.

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Speaker 6: You know, you'll get a referral from a previous client

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or a colleague who knows you well and can speak

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to Hey, Matt and his team do really good work,

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and that client that referral, that prospect is ninety percent

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more likely to you know, sign on the dotted line

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and trust that, hey, we're going to do a great

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job for them, then somebody who finds us through SEO

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or I've never done outbound email marketing because I don't

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believe in that as a viable business. But you know,

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that type of stuff is not the approach that I take.

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I take a very like human approach to it, where

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I go out and network a bunch.

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Speaker 5: I try and.

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Speaker 6: Be a good person within my community, and that is

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the means by which I like really work to try

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and bring in business for my coany. For some people, Hey,

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if you're just getting into consulting, maybe that sounds awful

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to you. Maybe you just want to be heads down

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writing code. You can go and join a consulting shop.

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We're hiring every once in a while, so reach out.

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Speaker 1: For sure. I think that's one of the big surprises

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for people who take on the consulting route is understanding

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that you are leaving your one job to take on

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three jobs, because now you have Job number one is

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a consultant where you're generating the billable hours. But then

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job number two is you're an accountant because now you

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have to do all the taxes and the legal paperwork

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and the bookkeeping. And job number three is you are

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in marketing because you always have to be recruiting and

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finding your next job once this one wraps up.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm with Matt that I don't believe in

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the code calling. I don't think those emails work, and

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yet I still see I probably get five to six

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a day from random people on LinkedIn saying, hey, you know,

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can we sell you our services whatever it is. They

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don't even know what my company is doing, and yet

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they're already like, oh, we know, we can help you.

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Speaker 5: It's just constant. I think if you have any C suite.

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Speaker 6: Level title in your name, I think we all get

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a insane amount of of both spam email and you know,

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the the LinkedIn messages and it's just it's just piles up.

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Speaker 5: It's kind of insane.

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Speaker 6: And I still don't understand how people do it because

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I can't think of a worse Like I, you know,

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get ten thousand emails here, you know, maybe that's high,

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but like I've never responded to one, So.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're you're missing out your opportunity here. I respond

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to every single one of them with a vengeance, like

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like I'm curious, like I really want to know, like

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is this person, you know, do they have a competency,

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you know, are they looking for something special? I really

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care about my like LinkedIn network, so I'm always looking

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to see, you know, making a connection with an initial

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person is it worthwhile for them and for me? And

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so like I'll try to dive into that. And some

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of them, you know, actually do turn it around and

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you know, are able to talk about the subject or

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the topic. But a lot of times they're just the

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partner portal expert or marketing manager or account manager and

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they have no idea of the thing that they're even

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selling in the first place. And I'm like why, like

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why did you think this was going to go like like,

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just walk me through your process here. Step one, connect

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with me on LinkedIn, h step two dot do dot

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step three profit like like, I don't know how as

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it is.

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Speaker 5: That's pretty good.

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Speaker 4: I would like to invite you to have a conversation

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with like some teenagers. It goes, it goes exactly the same,

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exactly the same.

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Speaker 1: So do you find that a lot of your you know,

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you talked about your your network and everything's coming to

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you or your your most likely sources through referrals. Is

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that within your community or is that online? Does that

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include digital connections?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so yes it does.

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Speaker 6: I mean, of course I think that you know, we're

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myself and a number of members on my team are

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big contributors maintainers of our own open source as well

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as like one of the larger open source infrastructure is

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code terrorform libraries. Uh, so we have a bunch of

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connections in that world. I have CTO online communities I'm

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involved in. I have a bunch of like volunteer with

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other extrajournal organizations that I'm involved in, and I think

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we try and pretty be pretty involved in like different slacks,

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and I think that things come from those all the time.

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So Yeah, it's not just you have to be going

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out and shaking hands and kissing babies. It's also some

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level of online Uh, you know, presence is really important.

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I personally am posting on LinkedIn three times a week.

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I have a lot of really good, uh colleagues, people

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that are I like a lot and highly respect their opinion.

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They are, you know, people I've met through LinkedIn and

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just like posting content. So I think that there's a

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lot of different avenues how that networking happens, but.

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Speaker 5: It all, you know, kind of leads to a similar

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uh and result.

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Speaker 2: Let's let's plug your your terror form open source library.

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Speaker 1: Like what is that?

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Speaker 6: So we are maintainers of cloud posse. Uh have you

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folks ever heard of them?

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Speaker 4: I have, So you're that person I steal your code

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like all the time.

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Speaker 5: See, they're the best.

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Speaker 4: When I originally got it on the show before I

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didn't know this, this is like the best super event

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for a Tuesday morning.

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Speaker 6: Ever.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they're they're not my company.

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Speaker 6: Eric's a good and I really respect the hell out

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of what that guy's doing. But when I initially got

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into Infrastructure's code, they were the community that I found personally,

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and I was just like, Hey, these folks are doing

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this sensibly, like this is one infrastructure is not Infrastructure

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is a commodity, right, Like, we're all shipping the same

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load balancer, we're shipping the same certificate, we're shipping the

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same postgress instance. Why do we need to re Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea what.

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Speaker 3: You're talking about.

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Speaker 6: Anyway, they they do it right. And when I found

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their modules, I was really excited. I was contributing a

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bunch and then as part of that, I ended up

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on their like maintainer teams. So we're helping them get

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prs tested and merged and complying with all the best

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practices that those folks have set out. And I have

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multiple my team have now joined that that we're organization,

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And yeah, that's the I really believe in open source

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infrastructure's code. I think there's like interesting discussions there. Some

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people do not Some people think that we should be

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copy and pasting and writing little snowflakes all over the place.

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But that's, you know the difference in opinion that happens.

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Speaker 2: I actually want to get into that because one of

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my questions that I had thought of that I really

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wanted to ask you is what is the real impact

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of And I know someone's going to be kicking me

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for bringing this topic up at only whatever like the

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ten minute point, and that's realistically any sort of LLM

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integration here, because like I really do feel like that, Okay,

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well laugh it out that there's a lot like this

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is exactly the sort of thing that I think LMS

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are very good at generating. But at the same time

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it's the worst place to have those little mistakes that

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will cost you, you know, huge production incidents.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so I will say that we don't typically a

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ton of infrastructure as code. You know, we'll do it

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for new resources that we haven't seen maybe sometimes, but

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for the most part, you know, I'm I have a

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very serious talk with my team that like, hey, you

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need to understand how all these things come together. This

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can't be l generate, you know, get commit and ship it,

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because yeah, there's a lot of nuances in that one

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flag that might be a security loophole that might cause

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you to over provision something along those lines.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 6: I don't know, we see it a lot where people

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are generating a ton of code and then they don't

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really have a good handle on Hey, what all this

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is doing.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's that's usually where i'm.

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Speaker 6: You know, a proponent of open source, because hey, you

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could probably get that same use case that you are

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looking for.

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Speaker 5: You know, you're trying.

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Speaker 6: To deploy a bunch of data dog monitors, and instead

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of generating code around them and creating a you know, yeah,

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get the job done for today, but for day two operations,

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is it better to have a small open source module

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that provides that same monitor, that provides a spec, provides

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you something that you can upgrade in the future, provide

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something that's already tested and already secure. There's a lot

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of benefits to at least doing.

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Speaker 5: The search beforehand.

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Speaker 6: To go for open source, I think then just saying hey,

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we can generate the hell out of this code.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, are the open source modules showing up in the

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LM results or is it pure like underlying HCl.

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Speaker 6: Not that I've seen, And you know, we haven't done

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a good test of Hey, let's use an LM that

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we've given like a lot of really good instructions to

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read through the three hundred open source modules that we

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typically use. But I think that that's a good question.

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I haven't seen anybody who's like using a trained model

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to say, hey, these are our approved module libraries.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't even just that, but because I

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remember there was like a pretty huge scandal with Pulumi

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where they tried to do something similar to this and

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the LM that they were featuring on their website just

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like could not provide more wrong information. Uh So that's

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totally a data point there.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's interesting, always trying to do some something new

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and I applaud them for innovation.

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Speaker 5: You're gonna get it wrong sometimes, right, you gotta try.

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Speaker 1: It's good for sure, fell Fast. So whenever you start

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working with a new client, do you have like a

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particular vertical or size of company that you work really

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well with and have isolated on that intentionally?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we still love startups, and you know, it's sad

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that the VC market is.

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Speaker 5: No good, but I still still love startups.

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Speaker 6: We just have moved further up funnel in terms of

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we usually talked to the series C and above, you know,

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the folks who are well established and they're trying to scale,

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because that's really where a lot of our expertise comes

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in Handy is hey, you have an organization that has

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grown organically you've been trying to grow fast and you've

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made some mistakes and we can kind of come in

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and dig you out of your hole. So yeah, that

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realm is where we really like to engage is the

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mid market to like late stage series of funding startups.

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Speaker 5: We have an anchor client who's a large enterprise.

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Speaker 6: They're you know, a Fortune five hundred car manufacturer. But

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really I love those those later stage startup clients because

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they have the most fun problems. They usually have great

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engineers that are just like, we need to be pointed

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in the right direction, and hey, we can do that,

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so it's fun.

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Speaker 2: Are you seeing the same holes at each of your

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clients or is it like everyone have their own special

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set of problems.

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Speaker 6: I think that there's a you know, uh, there's always

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some combination of similar problems, you know. There there's a

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really common problem that we've written a bunch about on

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our blog, and we we have another blog post coming

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out really soon.

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Speaker 5: That's you know, the terroorlyth problem. Have y'all ever heard

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of that term? This one's new for me. Okay.

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Speaker 6: It's basically, when you build a infrastructure as code root

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module that's too big, so it's storing too many resources

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in state and then it becomes slow topply, it has

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blast radius issues, and you you know, can't really do

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role based access control in your team because hey, you're

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managing your network alongside your database, alongside your application cluster.

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So we've seen that a ton and you know that

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comes in all different shapes and sizes. It's very unique

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to the organization. We we know how to break those

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up really well. So that's that's an easy one. We'll

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have a post on that on the blog very soon

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that talks about how teams can break it up themselves

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give it away for free. You know. The other thing

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I think is there's still a lot of organizations who

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are applying locally and they don't they haven't figured out automation.

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And then on the opposite side of the coin, there's

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a bunch of organizations who have built their own automation

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around infrastructure as code and they've found out the hard

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way that that's not a good route, and they, you know,

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are really you know, continuing to toil in the details

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of like, hey, how do we you know, make this

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scalable for our organization.

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Speaker 5: And it's it's kind of a bad rabbit hole.

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Speaker 6: We always suggest, hey, either go again open source or

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pick one of the really awesome vendors in the space.

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But yeah, those are those are some of the like

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high level problems. There's a lot of like nuanced, like

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code level details that I think we see a lot

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that we have strong opinions on. But yeah, those are

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the ten thousand foot ones.

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Speaker 2: See I saw will laughing here sort of like the

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villain at the end of a movie that is having

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some sort of s like logical breakdown, and I just

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I have to I have to wonder what was going

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through his head at that moment.

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Speaker 1: Just reliving some past trauma. I think.

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Speaker 4: Those Yeah, this whole show is just like PTSD induced.

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Speaker 1: You know, no, I can totally relate to that, especially

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in the stage of company that you're you're focused on,

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you know, the late late stage series startup, because early

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on I've been guilty of this many times. You know,

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early in the startup stage, you think about your past

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experiences and you're like, I'm not going to do that again.

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We're going with I see from the very beginning, and

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so you start building all of these processes and controls,

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and the flaw with that is you don't actually have

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a product for your company. Yet, you know, because for

348
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every startup there's always the there's the product that you launched,

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and then there's the product that you're customers actually wanted.

350
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And never in the history of startups have those two

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been the same thing. So you make all of these

352
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process and design and architectural decisions around this product that

353
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now no longer exists. And it takes someone like yourself, Matt,

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from an outside perspective to come in and say, you know,

355
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you're holding on to these little nuggets here hoping that

356
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their gold, and they're not. Just let them go.

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Speaker 5: Sound advice.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a huge problem there though, which is

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that those processes are sort of coupled to the culture

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of your organization, so like you almost need to like

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actually start a new company to get rid like actually

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eliminate all of that tech deat In some ways, you've

363
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built it up, You've built up expectations on how that works.

364
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Like maybe you are career ladder is somehow hooked to

365
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the types of task and responsible. I mean, no one's

366
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got it that bad, but there's a lot that needs

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to be thought about other than just like you can't

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just click a couple of buttons and delete their code.

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Speaker 1: I call it the polished turd syndrome, because you start

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with this turd and you just keep polishing it and

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polishing it, and then eventually it starts to get some

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shine to it, and so now you're really emotionally invested

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in making this turd nice and shiny, and you need

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someone to come in and say, dude, it's it's just

375
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a turd.

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Speaker 3: It go.

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Speaker 2: They have to want to listen, though, And I think

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that's part of the problem is that often you see

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like the maybe operations division or sales or marketing, or like,

380
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we're actually making a lot of money from that thing.

381
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It's not like as much money as we should be making,

382
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but we're making, you know, a million ten million a year,

383
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and we just need to keep the lights on, and

384
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they don't understand how much toil and complexity is actually

385
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involved to just keeping the lights on for that. And

386
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so I actually think I've seen this way more often

387
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than the other side, where an engineering team doesn't want

388
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to own it, they don't want to do anything with it,

389
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except someone keeps on telling them, oh, yeah, you know,

390
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you have to keep it working, but you're not allowed

391
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to spend any time doing that.

392
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Speaker 5: I've seen that, and I think that, you know, a

393
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part of what you folks are talking about.

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Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, at the level, at the stage of

395
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company that we usually engage with, there's always some level

396
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of like some cost fallacy, right, there's some group within

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the organization who's wrapped up in the idea that, hey,

398
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we've invested so much in this tooling, why why would

399
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we get rid of it?

400
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Speaker 5: What do you mean? And yeah, it does.

401
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Speaker 6: It does sometimes take a third party like my company,

402
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that comes in and says, hey, here's the reasoning. You know,

403
00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:44,640
we're the outside eyes. We're giving you this this perspective

404
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,480
because honestly, your workflow is not great. You're not, you know,

405
00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:53,720
doing yourself favors here by continuing to polish this, so

406
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to speak. So, yeah, I agree with what you folks

407
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are getting at. It is it's always comes down to

408
00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:03,759
people problems in one way or another. And I think

409
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that luckily I've been consulting long enough where I like

410
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can navigate those well.

411
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Speaker 5: Uh, and yeah, it's fun.

412
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Speaker 2: Who who are the decision makers that end up signing

413
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off on needing to pull in a third party for you?

414
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Speaker 6: It usually comes down to the director level or above,

415
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so it's usually director of Engineering, Director of DevOps infrastructure,

416
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the VP, the CTO, it's somewhere along that chain. Sometimes

417
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it starts with an engineer, where the engineer will be like.

418
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Speaker 5: Hey, we have this horrible problem.

419
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Speaker 6: We're not dealing with it like we gotta we gotta

420
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do something, and that it can go bottom up.

421
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Speaker 5: But it's not typical.

422
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Speaker 6: It's more a yeah, some somebody in engineering leadership realizes

423
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they got to make a change, uh, and they're reaching

424
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out to to kind of talk through, Hey, what does

425
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this look like? How can we, you know, actually benefit So.

426
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Speaker 1: Yeah, how often I think this is like a non

427
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technical component of the job. I'm interested in your your

428
00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:09,599
take on it. How often is it that the problem

429
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that you're really trying to solve is the cost of scalability,

430
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where like, the company's doing well and they're scaling and

431
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they're growing, but the infrastructure costs are are growing quicker

432
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than revenue.

433
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Speaker 6: So I don't think it's the actual cloud costs that

434
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,400
it's not. That's not actually typically a problem. It's the

435
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maintenance cost for engineers and the amount of time that

436
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they're spending to feed the system that they've built in

437
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one way or another, and that's the thing that's.

438
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Speaker 5: Slowing them down.

439
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Speaker 6: Basically, they've made some bad decisions along the line that

440
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is causing their organization to overall have them be a bottleneck.

441
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Whether that's that's their infrastructure workflow as a whole. Maybe

442
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it's because they you know, need to hire an entire

443
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security team to make sure that things are not you know,

444
00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:07,519
going to cause a you know, critical CBD and you

445
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know day day five of new application launch or something.

446
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Speaker 5: Those are the problems we more typically see.

447
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Speaker 6: So it's less actual, hey, our cloud costs are growing astronomically,

448
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and more hey, we're we're spending too much time here,

449
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Like why is this? Why is my team telling you

450
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need three more engineers? That's that seems like madness when

451
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,480
you know we're not we're not really doing doing all

452
00:24:35,519 --> 00:24:37,799
that much crazy stuff here. We should be more, we

453
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should be faster, we should be more streamlined.

454
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Speaker 5: Yeah.

455
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Speaker 2: Maybe I actually sort of want to flip this question

456
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around because I really like it and I think there's

457
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,839
a different perspective here that really gets me thinking. Is

458
00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:50,599
you're not you're not solving technical problems, are you? Like

459
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,039
I I get the sense that you know you're coming in.

460
00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:57,279
It's not that the organization is missing two more engineers

461
00:24:57,319 --> 00:24:59,240
to Oh, if we only had these two people who

462
00:24:59,279 --> 00:25:02,240
understood terrior form better, we would solve all our problems.

463
00:25:02,279 --> 00:25:03,839
I mean, is that really it? I got the sense

464
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of probably you could do that. And they may be

465
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missing technology, but they're probably missing something like a better

466
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,559
uh strategy for on the personal level, like there how

467
00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:18,319
they're approaching problems, or how they're prioritizing work or something

468
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,440
like that. And maybe before I ask the next question,

469
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I'll give you a moment.

470
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Speaker 5: Yeah.

471
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Speaker 6: I think it's interesting because it's multifaceted, right. It's sometimes

472
00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:32,599
they've I like the this is my new joke where uh,

473
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:39,359
you know what, why do Masterpoint clients reach out to us? Oh,

474
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,480
because they applied themselves into a corner. I don't know

475
00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:44,839
if it's a good joke you folks on second person,

476
00:25:44,839 --> 00:25:48,920
I'm trying trying it out on but yeah, they back themselves.

477
00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 5: Into a corner.

478
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 6: They they you know, they go about things in from

479
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,599
an infrastructure as code perspective. We're we're still young, right,

480
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,119
it's still a really early day.

481
00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 5: We might be ten years old.

482
00:26:01,519 --> 00:26:04,599
Speaker 6: But Hashikorp when they came out with terrorform and terrorform

483
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,079
I see as like that's what mainstreamed infrastructure is code.

484
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,920
They came out with that in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen,

485
00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:16,960
and it was really early, and it was just it

486
00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:19,440
was way more configured than it was code. And it's

487
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:25,160
slowly grown and it's gotten better. And the reality is

488
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,160
they didn't put out many best practices.

489
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,079
Speaker 5: So you have a ton of organizations, a.

490
00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 6: Ton who have just gone and built whatever the hell

491
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,119
they wanted and it has turned into a mess and

492
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,000
that can be a such a operational detriment to their

493
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,759
organization that we're coming in and we're providing some of

494
00:26:44,759 --> 00:26:48,960
those best practices on how to like do things streamlined

495
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,240
that it is a technical problem and they do need expertise.

496
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,279
Speaker 5: The other side of it.

497
00:26:54,039 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 6: Is kind of what we were talking about before, you know,

498
00:26:57,039 --> 00:27:00,680
the cultural you know, hey, some cost bowel see trying

499
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,920
to guard like trying to direct them into direction that's

500
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,920
going to be you know, operationally efficient.

501
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,519
Speaker 5: There's a bunch of other things too, but like that's.

502
00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 6: What it usually comes down to, is like those two

503
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,720
sides of the coin. Yeah, does that make sense to

504
00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:20,480
answer your question?

505
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, for sure.

506
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: I mean, there's some fundamental problem here, and I really

507
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,079
like the perspective of they didn't think enough about what

508
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,359
the future was going to look like for them, and

509
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,480
they may not have the right people on the team

510
00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:36,599
to I mean, you don't fix a problem with the

511
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,359
same initial conditions still in play. You need to change

512
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,119
something to have a different outcome. I feel like you

513
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,440
keep on bringing up potential perspectives that master Point have

514
00:27:47,559 --> 00:27:51,279
that may be highly controversial, and I want to get

515
00:27:51,319 --> 00:27:53,799
those on the record in a way, and like one

516
00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:59,599
of them is like one terraform repository for your whole organization,

517
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,759
or do you like merge it with the individual application code,

518
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:06,759
so like code and infrastructure as code next to each

519
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:09,480
other in the same repo or one centralized location.

520
00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 5: That's one we don't have as much of a strong

521
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:13,200
opinion on.

522
00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:15,759
Speaker 6: I will say that we do have a strong opinion

523
00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:20,160
on there should be an infrastructure mono repo for your organization.

524
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:27,400
I think that that's just like there's beyond just environmental infrastructure.

525
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,240
There's a lot of infrastructure that is global. Right if

526
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,680
you're managing GitHub, if you're managing if you're doing observability

527
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,960
as code, and you're managing monitors and SLOs and dashboards

528
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,440
and things like that within a tool like data Dog

529
00:28:42,519 --> 00:28:46,119
or Honeycomb. You want those to be in a centralized location.

530
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,400
They shouldn't be scattered into fifteen different repositories. But even

531
00:28:50,599 --> 00:28:55,319
when it comes down to environmental infrastructure, so hey we

532
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,200
have a VPC, we've got a load balancer, we've got

533
00:28:58,319 --> 00:28:59,440
a Postcrest database.

534
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 5: If a client.

535
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 6: Wants to do a hey they want their let's say

536
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,839
they're shipping on Kubernetes, they want their Kubernetes infrastructure to

537
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,400
live alongside the application that it is, you know, the

538
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,359
repository that it's managed in. That's totally fine, but we

539
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,559
would say, hey, put your put the environmental infrastructure that

540
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,319
actually supports that application in the infrastructure mono repo and

541
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,240
really have it be a single point over off in

542
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:34,000
its own land so that you can like scalably duplicate

543
00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:36,480
that repo so as you add more services, as you

544
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,240
add more components to the overall system, then then there's

545
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,279
it makes sense there, and then you don't need to

546
00:29:42,319 --> 00:29:46,920
have those engine application engineers doing pullar quest to some

547
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,359
infrastructure mount repo that they may or may not have

548
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:51,720
any clue about what's going on.

549
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: So he I mean, it's it's always great when the

550
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,799
answer is you know, it depends, right, you know that's.

551
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 5: It always depends.

552
00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:01,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, particularly as a consult always.

553
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,039
Speaker 1: Jillie, what was that?

554
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 3: That is everybody's favorite answer? Is it depends?

555
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,279
Speaker 5: Yeah.

556
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:09,759
Speaker 2: I mean there are some things that you know, I

557
00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:11,960
just sort of want the canonical, like it's always going

558
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,200
to be this, and you know one of them is

559
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,799
a TF workspaces.

560
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: What is that?

561
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:18,319
Speaker 5: Is that?

562
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 6: Yes or no?

563
00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:22,079
Speaker 3: I don't like that spaces I like I like directories.

564
00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 4: I want to be able to run Tree on a

565
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,119
directory like you know, kick it old school here workspaces.

566
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,240
Nobody ever remembers to change the workspaces. Know, everybody else

567
00:30:31,279 --> 00:30:32,039
can have an opinion.

568
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 5: So that is this is it?

569
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 6: This is like the you've you've now nailed the one

570
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,599
which is this is the biggest divide within infrastructure as

571
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,200
code is. We have people who look at infrastructure as

572
00:30:46,519 --> 00:30:49,000
this is configured that should be copy and pasted, and

573
00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:51,559
we have people that look at infrastructure as this is

574
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,680
more like code that should be you know, there should

575
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,759
be one instance of this thing and then we should

576
00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:01,079
deploy that instance. Many times we're of the camp I

577
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:04,319
disagree with Jillian, but I, you know, do respect that. Hey,

578
00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:07,240
there's a thousand different ways to do this, and people

579
00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:08,000
have their own way.

580
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 3: It's okay. I like it when we can find on

581
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:10,880
the show, it makes it.

582
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that even immediately came in. But yeah,

583
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,319
we used to have workspaces. A lot of people rag

584
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:24,279
on workspaces. I think that you can do them wrong.

585
00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:28,400
They are kind of a very light abstraction layer.

586
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: There's a really cool that tends to be my problem.

587
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:36,759
Speaker 6: That is a thing that'll plenty of people do is

588
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:40,000
forget that they exist. There is a really great issue

589
00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:45,160
in the opa tofu GitHub organization right now where Martin Atkins,

590
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,720
one of the biggest original implementers UH and biggest contributors

591
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,559
to terrorform core for for many years now.

592
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,519
Speaker 5: He is now switched over to the open tofu team.

593
00:31:56,359 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 6: And one of the things that he did within his

594
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,960
first like month or so was put up an ish

595
00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:04,400
you about deprecating workspaces, and now that issue has Yeah,

596
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,640
Gillian's laughing.

597
00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 4: But like, well, I'm not like opposed to workspaces in theory.

598
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,799
It's just that every time I've tried to use them

599
00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:14,559
and practice me or somebody else forgets they exist and

600
00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:15,759
like and then that's a problem.

601
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: It could be worse though, they could be having separate

602
00:32:20,079 --> 00:32:22,599
GET branches for each environment.

603
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 4: Okay, that's totally reasonable.

604
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,559
Speaker 3: What are you talking about? No, I'm sorry, I know,

605
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:32,640
I know that's not reasonable.

606
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 2: There's only one main line in a Git repository, and

607
00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:36,880
I will die on this hill.

608
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 5: I will die on that hill as well.

609
00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 6: Particularly, an infrastructure is code, Particularly an infrastructure is code

610
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,039
because you're you're not dealing with twelve factor apps in

611
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:47,960
infrastructure is code, right, you don't have a separation of

612
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,160
the configure that drives that infrastructure is code like you

613
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,440
do with a application that could be in a gifflow model.

614
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,519
So you're then if you want to make a change

615
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:02,200
to a production configt sating, you have to do it

616
00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:05,400
in the proud branch. And that might mean that you're

617
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:09,839
you just get into branch nonsense. And I just posted

618
00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:12,480
this recently of like my favorite, one of my favorite

619
00:33:12,519 --> 00:33:14,880
sayings is you know, more branches, more problems.

620
00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 5: I think it's way worse, sick, I think.

621
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 6: It's way worse in infrastructure is code world. If you

622
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,000
are doing a branch based workflow.

623
00:33:24,359 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: I mean just doesn't make any sense from against dowdpoint,

624
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:29,839
because these are become separate trees. And if these are

625
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,680
separate trees, why are they even in the same repository.

626
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,359
You're not gonna really do anything effective. I mean someone

627
00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:37,839
may say, well, you can cherry pick some diffs from

628
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,559
one to another one, but I mean, realistically.

629
00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 5: That's a nightmare. That's yes.

630
00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:46,079
Speaker 1: Is that your billing model, Matt, Your your hourly rate

631
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,480
is based on the number of branches they have in

632
00:33:48,519 --> 00:33:49,119
their repo?

633
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 6: Oh, I hope we don't have a client that's a

634
00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:55,720
done of branch based workflow.

635
00:33:55,759 --> 00:33:56,519
Speaker 5: The amount of work.

636
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, maybe our hourly rate doubles, Yeah, would be good.

637
00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 5: Maybe I haven't had to do it yet.

638
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,119
Speaker 6: But well you've only heard about those those clients or

639
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,280
heard about those setups.

640
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:10,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, not yet.

641
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 2: So another one is you mentioned early on in the

642
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,239
episode public versus Private modules, And at least from my understanding,

643
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,639
I think this is one of those areas where if

644
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:29,480
your core competency isn't building open to fool HCl models,

645
00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:31,760
you're probably going to get it wrong. And I believe

646
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,360
it's a huge challenge to undo that mistake and using

647
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,599
the either raw resources or what's come before you out

648
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:42,559
there in the world is way more valuable than what

649
00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:43,880
you'll ever be able to do. But you know, I

650
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,039
want to hear I want to hear the experts perspective

651
00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:46,320
on this.

652
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, we view it as, Hey, these the open source world.

653
00:34:54,039 --> 00:34:57,239
As long as you're correctly evaluating your the open source

654
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,199
modules that you are using your you're getting one a community,

655
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,480
you're getting tested code, you're getting best practices in terms

656
00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:12,400
of naming, tagging, and potentially security or not potentially, but

657
00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:16,079
you know, more likely security. And then you're getting something

658
00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:22,159
that when you go to, let's say, add a new feature,

659
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,159
you can always check if that module has been updated

660
00:35:26,199 --> 00:35:29,079
recently by somebody else's doing that same exact feature.

661
00:35:29,199 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 5: Maybe they're adding IPv six support, don't.

662
00:35:33,079 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 6: We don't support IPv six for all of our clients, right,

663
00:35:36,119 --> 00:35:38,159
I know that some of the modules that we use do,

664
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,440
And if we had built those modules ourselves in house

665
00:35:41,559 --> 00:35:44,119
for our clients, then they would have to go in

666
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:45,079
and find all.

667
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,079
Speaker 5: The places to add IPv six support.

668
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: Right.

669
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 6: So what we typically tell clients is, hey, if you're

670
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,480
if you want to encode conventions for your larger organization,

671
00:35:57,039 --> 00:36:00,280
you want to make sure that Hey, the numberumber of

672
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,039
variables and the you know, the best practices that you

673
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:07,400
see or fit wrap open source with your own small

674
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,760
layer on top of that child module. You can do

675
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,199
a smaller child module that just consumes another child module,

676
00:36:14,639 --> 00:36:19,480
and that bottom layer child module can be a open

677
00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:22,239
source and you can really I think, still get a

678
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,159
lot of the benefits and create a lot of the

679
00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:26,159
flexibility that you want for your organization.

680
00:36:26,599 --> 00:36:28,519
Speaker 5: So that's usually what our recommendation is.

681
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,119
Speaker 1: So what's your background before DevOps, Matt? Were you in

682
00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:37,159
infrastructure or software development?

683
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 6: Software development? I? Yeah, did CS in university. Luckily went

684
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,920
to a co op school, so I started working at

685
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,559
startups when I was still in school.

686
00:36:51,159 --> 00:36:54,039
Speaker 5: I did two stints at two awesome startups.

687
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 6: They taught me a thousand things not to do, which

688
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,239
was great, and one of the those startups hired me

689
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,519
before I even left, and I moved to Philadelphia and

690
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,920
was doing full stack. You know. I started mobile development,

691
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,679
did a bunch of back end rails work, did a

692
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:13,480
bunch of front end stuff. I was really big an

693
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,480
amber JS back in the day, and then got into

694
00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:23,800
infrastructure and AWS specifically during that second startup experience.

695
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: Right on cool The reason I asked that is because

696
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,119
of your approach to this. Like throughout my career, I've

697
00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:34,079
seen like two philosophies in doing this, and I think

698
00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:36,360
they they sort of resonate with what you were just

699
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,360
talking about. Like you have people who have written code

700
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,159
in the past and they understand, you know, like abstraction

701
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,719
and rappers and things like that. Then you have like

702
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,719
your your old school knuckle dragger it guys who would

703
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,320
you know, drag the rack in and if you needed

704
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,199
more network port, you would drag another network switch in

705
00:37:56,199 --> 00:37:57,559
and you would do it in IRAQ and you would

706
00:37:57,559 --> 00:37:59,639
crawl under the floor to wire it up and stuff.

707
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:04,440
And I think depending on what your early part of

708
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:10,320
your career looks like greatly influences how you solve ic problems.

709
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, I strongly agree.

710
00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:16,079
Speaker 6: And I think it's one of the things that I

711
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:20,719
get confused about within the infrastructure as code space.

712
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 5: Why are we all doing it so differently? And I

713
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:24,880
think it's an interesting.

714
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 6: Space because we do have the CIS admin folks who

715
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,079
were just awesome at Linux and they you know, could

716
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,559
one line bash themselves out of.

717
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 5: Any hole that they were in. And you know, we.

718
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,039
Speaker 6: Have people that are coming from application engineering that are

719
00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:44,559
you know, coming from Hey, I'm going to pick up

720
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:48,239
modern practices and I learned Python, but now I'm switching

721
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,320
over into into writing code or writing infrastructure because that's

722
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,920
what the organization needed today.

723
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 5: And I think that it's this weird.

724
00:38:56,679 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 6: It's not a traditional software path, so you know, you

725
00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:04,360
have all these different ways of thinking about it, but

726
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,480
when it comes down to it, a lot of the

727
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:10,440
time I asked the question, why do we not treat

728
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:11,519
infrastructure as code?

729
00:39:11,519 --> 00:39:12,039
Speaker 1: As code?

730
00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:13,639
Speaker 5: Like that?

731
00:39:13,639 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 6: That is like a core principle, a core like issue

732
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,519
that I have with a lot of people's setups, and

733
00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:23,320
it seems.

734
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: Obvious when you phrase it that way.

735
00:39:25,639 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

736
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think that there was a fight in one

737
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,639
of the online communities I'm in whether or not configuration

738
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:36,000
that lives in a YAMO file counts as programming, Like

739
00:39:36,039 --> 00:39:39,079
if you go and change that, and you know, for me,

740
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,159
it's just a DSL, and every DSL is programming language.

741
00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:45,800
Whether or not it's turning complete, it's sort of irrelevant.

742
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,719
And I'm sure someone's going to be like, YAML is

743
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,559
turning complete. I don't know that it is, but I'm

744
00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:54,119
sure someone will make that comment, in which case, yeah,

745
00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:56,280
for sure, but I mean you're changing something, you know

746
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,480
what you're impacting here, and you know I do. I

747
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:01,760
do think that the there is this fundamental disagreement on

748
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,840
how people really think about the world, and their internal

749
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,880
values and their own perspectives influence how they think about

750
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,719
the infrastructure that they write or what they create.

751
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: The psychology of DevOps.

752
00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, people problems, like that's right. We have a lot

753
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,239
more people problems than we do technical problems.

754
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's never a technical problem.

755
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,639
Speaker 4: I mean it work with like the teching people, I

756
00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:33,480
would just I would get so annoyed so fast because

757
00:40:33,679 --> 00:40:36,480
the people that I work with they don't like really

758
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,639
care about like the nitty gritty of what I'm doing.

759
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 3: They prefer not to know.

760
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 4: They would prefer if they never had to deal with

761
00:40:41,519 --> 00:40:44,039
me at all, is like what they really they can't

762
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:46,599
do that, Like they want me in and out as

763
00:40:46,639 --> 00:40:49,679
quickly as possible and have no idea what I'm doing,

764
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,320
and that's that's like their wish list.

765
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,559
Speaker 3: So I can't imagine working with people who I don't know.

766
00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:56,599
Speaker 4: I think I had like one client nitpick at me

767
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,960
about like a load balance, the type of load balance

768
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,559
so that I was using and I was just like, oh,

769
00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:02,719
I'm not doing this again.

770
00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I hear you.

771
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

772
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,079
Speaker 6: I think, particularly at the larger organization level, a lot

773
00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:16,519
of people want you know, infrastructure and DevOps is not

774
00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:20,639
a driver for success, right, It's a requirement. It needs

775
00:41:20,639 --> 00:41:24,480
to be part of the like pyramid that builds up

776
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,719
to you know, profit at the end of the day.

777
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,679
But people want it to be a really small piece

778
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,519
and they want it to be quiet, and they you know,

779
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,719
want to build that upper application piece that actually drives dollars.

780
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,760
And it's a frustrating place to be in in terms

781
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,880
of psychology at DevOps, like as you just mentioned, well, like.

782
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 5: That is when I when.

783
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 6: I talk to a lot of DevOps engineers, platform engineers,

784
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,440
whatever you want to call them, it's like, you know,

785
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,079
they're always just struggling with They have a ton of work,

786
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,880
they have a huge backlog, they don't have a bunch

787
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,599
of it, like, they don't have a big enough team.

788
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 5: And I think that's really consistent.

789
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 2: I think part of it comes from the fact someone

790
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,679
was saying this recently to me that they think the

791
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,559
next innovation and DevOps will be where the DevOps teams

792
00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:20,320
and the platform and the platform engineering teams and the

793
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,559
product engineering teams will come and work together. And I'm like,

794
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,719
I don't I think you misunderstood what DevOps means. If

795
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,519
you think that's that's a future we haven't reached yet.

796
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,960
But I think you know, organizations definitely, you know, it's

797
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,280
swopped out whatever the what they were calling release engineering

798
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:39,679
or infrastructure management, they just gave it a new name.

799
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,360
And so of course we're going to see those problems

800
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,400
in organizations where they are stuck there, where they don't

801
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,079
see a solution, where they don't see anything as different,

802
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:51,800
and they need someone to come in and help them.

803
00:42:52,119 --> 00:42:56,159
Got I got another controversial one. Here we go, cross plan.

804
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,639
Speaker 5: Oh have you read our blog posts?

805
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: I have not.

806
00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:03,599
Speaker 5: Okay, we've got a great blog post on it.

807
00:43:04,519 --> 00:43:09,199
Speaker 6: I I shared out all the time because it's I don't.

808
00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 5: Know, it just feels it's a shame.

809
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 4: I so.

810
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,679
Speaker 6: Back when I kind of started to build my team

811
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,599
and started to transition from solo to agency, I had

812
00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:23,039
been really stoked on Kuber Duddies for a long time,

813
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,639
and you know, really, uh, I thought it was the

814
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,719
Swiss Army knife to solve all the problems. I think

815
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,400
about that less now.

816
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:36,039
Speaker 1: Episode over.

817
00:43:36,199 --> 00:43:40,159
Speaker 6: Sorry, I still think it's a great tool, don't get

818
00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:40,519
me wrong.

819
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 5: So anyway, I you know.

820
00:43:44,559 --> 00:43:47,039
Speaker 6: I was thinking cross Plaine was the next thing. I

821
00:43:47,079 --> 00:43:50,519
was like really excited. I had my senior engineer Veronica

822
00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:53,960
on my team. We we did her and I like

823
00:43:54,039 --> 00:43:58,800
collaborated on a long term proof of concept to build

824
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,639
a bunch of infrastructure in cross plane, and I was

825
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,159
just bullheaded. I was really really excited. And then just

826
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,360
as we got through this proof of concept, it just

827
00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:13,280
thing after thing. We're just too painful. It's just not

828
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,719
There was things that were missing that I was like, wait,

829
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,440
we can't do that. There aren't data sources. And they

830
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,079
have some of those things now, but I still think

831
00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:26,920
that overall there's a huge chicken and egg problem, like

832
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,199
where do you get that Kubernetes cluster? So you have

833
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,440
to kind of solve that differently all the time, And

834
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,000
there is a bunch of problems around ergonomics of that tool.

835
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,639
Speaker 5: And I just talked to somebody, somebody who worked at

836
00:44:41,639 --> 00:44:42,199
far Winds.

837
00:44:43,199 --> 00:44:45,679
Speaker 6: She you know, they had gone all in on cross

838
00:44:45,679 --> 00:44:47,719
plane and then they ended up pulling it out and

839
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:48,280
going back.

840
00:44:48,119 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 5: To terra form. Uh. And our blog post kind of

841
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,880
shares all our thoughts on that.

842
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 6: But yeah, cross Plaine, is it was exciting as an idea,

843
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:56,000
I don't think it.

844
00:44:56,079 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 5: I don't think it delivered on the promise. Sadly.

845
00:44:58,039 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm really with you here, I don't.

846
00:45:01,079 --> 00:45:02,280
I don't know what the best way of summing it

847
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,679
up is, Like, imagine if Kubernetes deployed all of your infrastructure,

848
00:45:07,159 --> 00:45:08,639
and you.

849
00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:09,079
Speaker 1: Know, I don't.

850
00:45:09,119 --> 00:45:11,559
Speaker 2: I don't love that because I just don't like these

851
00:45:11,559 --> 00:45:14,360
two things coupled together. Uh, And I feel like it's

852
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,840
taking one very complex thing and throwing yet like a

853
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,039
second aspect to it where people are already over using

854
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,639
Kubernetes in a lot of places where it may or

855
00:45:24,639 --> 00:45:26,719
may not need to actually be utilized, and then to

856
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,320
throw this on top. I'm really glad there is an

857
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,920
article out there that discusses these because I definitely would

858
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,239
have wanted to throw it at some of my past

859
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,079
clients and customers who share it.

860
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:36,079
Speaker 6: You know.

861
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: I think there's one of these problems though, where if

862
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,599
you find yourself in an organization that has those problematic

863
00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:45,199
patterns in place, how do you fix.

864
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,079
Speaker 5: That problematic patterns in places?

865
00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:49,559
Speaker 2: And like, like, you know, you come in an organization

866
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:51,719
and they are using cross Plane and you're like, okay,

867
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,239
you know, they're probably I've been called in because they

868
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,039
know that there are issues, and you can look at

869
00:45:56,079 --> 00:45:57,880
it and be like, okay, I bet one of the

870
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,119
issues is how is the fact' using cross play you

871
00:46:00,159 --> 00:46:02,400
didn't think about what the implication of that was going

872
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,239
to be. You're pretty much stuck on Kubernetes, you know,

873
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,400
full on there. And it's the same teams in organizations

874
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,480
that don't have Kubernetes experience but somehow of cross plane experience,

875
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,000
and they also don't have infrastructure experience outside of Kubernetes

876
00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:18,079
or outside of cross PLAYE.

877
00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:22,199
Speaker 5: I just I fear. I fear those organizations.

878
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think there isn't a great answer there. Right,

879
00:46:26,639 --> 00:46:30,360
It's like, hey, either you continue down that path and

880
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,320
you upscal you you try and make it as little

881
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,480
as painful as possible. I think one of the things

882
00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:40,880
is like probably there's a new pricing model with that

883
00:46:41,039 --> 00:46:44,360
Upbound has introduced where cross Plane is now if you

884
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,519
want access to their providers like the them, you need

885
00:46:49,559 --> 00:46:51,440
to pay at least one thousand dollars a month. I

886
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,039
think that's like newer versions of their providers like maybe

887
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:56,079
three or six months or something like that, which was

888
00:46:56,159 --> 00:46:58,400
kind of mind boggling to me. So I think you

889
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,639
need to be you know, you need to accept that. Hey,

890
00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:04,000
if you've made that poor technology decision, you you either

891
00:47:04,079 --> 00:47:07,000
need to learn you need to migrate away from it,

892
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,480
or you need to like go further into it. You know,

893
00:47:09,559 --> 00:47:12,639
you need to lean into it, which would if you

894
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,400
have the expertise, maybe you can make that work. I

895
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,519
think that it's still probably going to be painful, but

896
00:47:18,559 --> 00:47:21,920
I think you could probably continue to polish to bring

897
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,800
bring it back to our earlier conversation. I like.

898
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,679
Speaker 2: I like that perspective. I think that's a good one.

899
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,119
It's that you're in a problematic spot. You there is

900
00:47:31,159 --> 00:47:33,599
no there's no world where you don't spend more resources.

901
00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 6: Uh.

902
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,199
Speaker 2: It doesn't just magically get better. And you can either

903
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,760
go deeper on it, uh, you know, level up your

904
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,840
team's experience, utilize the technology the way it's supposed to,

905
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:44,840
or pick a better pick a better answer. And I

906
00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:47,400
think a lot of people don't want to hear that answer.

907
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:54,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, we had a client they had built their huge wrapper,

908
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,679
a typeescript rapper. They were they were a typeescript shop.

909
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,320
They had a huge mono repo. It was kind of

910
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:01,519
a thing of beauty. I think they were in the

911
00:48:01,519 --> 00:48:03,760
one hundred thousand plus pull requests count.

912
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 4: But the.

913
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 6: Thing they had done was they built a big typeescript

914
00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:10,239
wrapper around terror.

915
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 5: Form and.

916
00:48:13,199 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 6: It got complex. They were doing a ton of code generation,

917
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,840
they were doing a ton of stuff that I was like, guys,

918
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,239
come on, and they knew it too.

919
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,679
Speaker 5: They knew it was painful to them. They like they

920
00:48:23,679 --> 00:48:25,000
were like, hey, what do we do with this? Do

921
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:25,679
we keep going?

922
00:48:26,159 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 6: And our advice, you know, after we did an audit

923
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,639
for them and then kind of just did some guidance

924
00:48:31,679 --> 00:48:36,639
sessions for a few months later, and our advice was like, no,

925
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,239
you need to pull everything out, Like we need to

926
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,199
get away from this because you're just going to keep

927
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,239
building complexity and your engineers that you're hiring are not

928
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,320
going to know that complexity. They're going to come in

929
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,079
and say, hey, I know Terrorfarm, I can do this,

930
00:48:49,199 --> 00:48:52,519
and then no, they don't that because there's so many

931
00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:54,920
devils in the details. You've built so many layers of abstraction.

932
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,639
A lot of the time is keep it simple. Stupid

933
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:06,119
is a beautiful saying. To continue to repeat. So yeah, yeah, a.

934
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 3: Lot of silly things. But like, I don't know.

935
00:49:09,079 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 4: The thing that I like about terraform is it's just

936
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,679
a fancy makepile, so I can't imagine throwing anything else

937
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,440
on top of that besides making it like it get template,

938
00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:19,239
like I do that a lot, where it's it's like

939
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,800
my template freepo, or I'll use like cookie cutter or

940
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,920
something to generate the tf bars pile.

941
00:49:24,039 --> 00:49:28,159
Speaker 5: But that's well, that's so I sort of get it.

942
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 2: And I think where it came from for me is

943
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,519
that originally things like terror gront needed to exist because

944
00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:38,519
of lack of workspace support, or lack of environmental variable support,

945
00:49:38,639 --> 00:49:42,320
or lack of good loop support within And I hesitate

946
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,199
to call it terraform because now we have open TOFU

947
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,039
and I'm now I need something that groups all the

948
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,280
HCl language support together so I don't have to pick

949
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:51,800
one word over the other one. I mean, I just

950
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,559
want to see open TOFU Terraform's done for me, agree,

951
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,960
So and maybe I want to get your opinion on

952
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,840
that too, because I think that's that's a good perspective

953
00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:03,519
are I sort of get it, And actually with terrorform,

954
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,079
with TF. Now you have the CDK as well, which

955
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:10,840
is at least blessed version, but at least for me,

956
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,599
I prefer the thing that's more declarative. Like I feel

957
00:50:14,639 --> 00:50:18,000
like that's sort of the point, is declarative infrastructure rather

958
00:50:18,079 --> 00:50:21,519
than programmatic infrastructure creation, because we had that with things

959
00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:23,400
like Puppet and Chef and it did not it did

960
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,039
not go over well. But so I'll ask you, Matt,

961
00:50:27,079 --> 00:50:30,119
you know open TOFU or terraform.

962
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 5: We're if you see any of my content, if you

963
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:35,719
see our blog posts.

964
00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:39,199
Speaker 6: We're big open TOFU folks. I have talked it open

965
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:45,280
tofu North America. We've migrated five clients to open Tofu

966
00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:52,599
six and we're I honestly believe in the whole thing,

967
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,320
not only just from the open source perspective and the

968
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,320
fact that Hashi Corp. Did a rug pull, but because

969
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,599
they're they're innovating, may be a bit better, right, Like

970
00:51:01,639 --> 00:51:04,679
they have new features that I'm like pretty excited about.

971
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,599
And I like that they have a slack community and

972
00:51:08,639 --> 00:51:10,960
people are really active in it. I like that they

973
00:51:11,039 --> 00:51:16,599
are supporting their their community and being really on.

974
00:51:16,599 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 5: Top of it. There's a lot of really good engineers

975
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:21,280
on that team.

976
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,280
Speaker 6: I've gotten to, you know, go out and have have

977
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,239
a beer with with Christian, who's the team lead, and

978
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:32,320
I really like the guy. So I think that outside

979
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,400
of even the license change, I would say I'd be

980
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,760
going towards open TOFU. But if you're on terraform today,

981
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,400
the biggest thing I always say this, it comes down

982
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:46,760
to optionality. When you want to go and automate your terrorform,

983
00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:50,719
you either have on terraform, you have the option of

984
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,760
open source tools like Atlantis. You have the option of

985
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,760
writing earned pipes, which we highly recommend or highly don't recommend,

986
00:51:58,440 --> 00:51:59,239
recommend against.

987
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 5: And then finally you have tear from Cloud. Tear from

988
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:03,880
Cloud not a bad product.

989
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 6: It does what it needs to do, but it is

990
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,079
five to ten times more expensive than its competitors.

991
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,159
Speaker 5: And that is the big rub.

992
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,559
Speaker 6: Right, you have a product in the space and it's

993
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:17,000
the only product you can choose and pay for and say, hey,

994
00:52:17,039 --> 00:52:19,719
we have a vendor that helps us manage the complexity

995
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,039
of all of our infrastructure, but it's five to ten

996
00:52:23,119 --> 00:52:26,000
times more expensive than everybody else. Like that's it's a

997
00:52:26,039 --> 00:52:28,320
really hard pill to swallow. So I think that open

998
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,960
TOFU gives you a way out of that, and that's

999
00:52:32,199 --> 00:52:34,679
one of the main reasons that we tell people to

1000
00:52:35,079 --> 00:52:35,679
go that route.

1001
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 2: See, I have my fingers crossed that will finally get

1002
00:52:39,519 --> 00:52:43,519
a switch for every single resource that allows us to

1003
00:52:43,559 --> 00:52:46,000
turn it on or off without abusing the count variable.

1004
00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 6: Interesting, why do you dislike count? Well, do you just

1005
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,199
want like an enabled flag?

1006
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1007
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 2: I do just want an enabled flag. The number one

1008
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,559
reason I dislike it is, besides all the linting problems,

1009
00:53:00,599 --> 00:53:03,599
is it converts your resources from a single into an

1010
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,599
array with a single object, and then if you want

1011
00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:08,880
to turn it off, you can't like remove the count

1012
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,480
once it's true, Like, you can't pull that out and

1013
00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:12,480
just have everything work.

1014
00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 5: I get what you're saying.

1015
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 6: So there is now the moved block which allows you

1016
00:53:18,559 --> 00:53:21,920
to like change the path of something within the state file,

1017
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:23,719
which can save you there.

1018
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 5: You know, it can make it so that, hey, you.

1019
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 6: Can add count to a resource even if it didn't

1020
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,400
have it before, and not have it destroy and then

1021
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,400
recreate that resource still pain.

1022
00:53:31,519 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 5: I get what you're saying.

1023
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 6: Maybe there should be some you know, smarts that gets

1024
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,400
built into that, but not really.

1025
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 2: Want Yeah, I mean you really you really want your

1026
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,480
tools to enable a pit of success and I feel

1027
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,679
like this is one of the things that is for

1028
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,960
sure a pedo failure and tricks people up. And yeah,

1029
00:53:49,039 --> 00:53:51,119
there's ways around it, for sure. But the last thing

1030
00:53:51,119 --> 00:53:53,519
I want to do is like you're, oh, yeah, let

1031
00:53:53,559 --> 00:53:55,679
me put an extra ticket on our board for every

1032
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:59,480
single infrastructure change, just so someone can go back and

1033
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:01,599
write to move block and then delete the move block

1034
00:54:01,639 --> 00:54:02,679
when they don't need it anymore.

1035
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 6: It's yeah, no one's gonna do that work, I hear you,

1036
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:09,239
And I wonder if they could build that.

1037
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 5: I don't know. I'm going to look up if there's

1038
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,719
an issue in the open tofu for this.

1039
00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 2: I will put my thumbs up on it. I'm not

1040
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:17,840
going to do that tough for development myself, but I'm

1041
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:23,079
happy to use my very expensive thumbs up button to

1042
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:24,119
so expensive.

1043
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:25,079
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah.

1044
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 6: I think one of the great things about open tofu

1045
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,000
is that they are being very community driven in terms

1046
00:54:31,039 --> 00:54:33,960
of what they work on, so those thumbs up matter

1047
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:37,760
a lot. Where they have a board an issue that's

1048
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,199
like the top of their issue list that just lists

1049
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,639
all the issues that have gotten a certain number of

1050
00:54:42,639 --> 00:54:44,480
thumbs up, and they're saying, hey, we're going to work

1051
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,280
on the top one and that is that's really cool

1052
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,840
because hey, we have a say, I think a lot

1053
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,000
of the a lot of the problems with terraform too.

1054
00:54:53,039 --> 00:54:58,039
We're around we as a community where you know, banging

1055
00:54:58,079 --> 00:54:59,880
the gavel like, hey, we need this thing, we need

1056
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,079
the thing, we need this thing, and just weren't getting

1057
00:55:02,119 --> 00:55:04,800
anywhere with it, and open Tofu has just kind of

1058
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:05,280
flipped that.

1059
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:10,119
Speaker 1: So for sure, Yeah, no, I think that the key

1060
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:19,320
driver behind that is Hashi Core had to satisfy the board,

1061
00:55:19,519 --> 00:55:23,960
you know, whereas open Tofu has to satisfy the end users.

1062
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1063
00:55:26,679 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a shame that Hashikor went public.

1064
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 5: I think they had some great leadership.

1065
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 6: And they did what companies do, which is you get

1066
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:40,960
to a certain point and everybody wants to make money

1067
00:55:41,599 --> 00:55:43,480
off of your hard work.

1068
00:55:43,519 --> 00:55:45,599
Speaker 5: And I don't blame them for that, I really don't.

1069
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 6: But I think being a public company is brutal and

1070
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,599
you know, it's just rough.

1071
00:55:54,119 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 5: It's a shame.

1072
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: Now that is. Having spent my career in startups, I

1073
00:56:00,159 --> 00:56:03,760
can't imagine in twenty twenty five why anyone would take

1074
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:08,800
their company public if you really believe in the mission

1075
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,360
of your company and the end users who are supporting

1076
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,119
your product. If that's your focus, there's I don't see

1077
00:56:16,159 --> 00:56:18,119
a valid argument to take the company public.

1078
00:56:19,039 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: I have to imagine that it's not usually from like

1079
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:26,840
totally private to IPO like. It's usually through the VC chain,

1080
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,679
which is all about extracting the most money out of

1081
00:56:30,679 --> 00:56:33,400
that thing and scamming the most number of people in

1082
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,639
that pyramid scheme until you know you can get it

1083
00:56:35,639 --> 00:56:39,360
out to the public, and then from there the shareholders

1084
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,639
are very myopic, focused on just the next quarter and

1085
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,800
don't realize that having huge impacts on how the business

1086
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,400
actually works and the perception of the brand has a

1087
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:55,199
long lasting impact to the bottom line. I do have

1088
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,000
I do have a question of my own. Maybe it's

1089
00:56:58,039 --> 00:57:00,440
just something that you've thought about a little bit. One

1090
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,840
of the problems that we have in our space. So

1091
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,960
for our product, it's logging and access control that we

1092
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:08,679
provide for our customers, and there's a white labeling experience.

1093
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,880
Now there's a whole part of the infrastructure which is shared,

1094
00:57:13,039 --> 00:57:15,239
but then there is a bunch of pieces which are

1095
00:57:15,679 --> 00:57:19,639
per customer, per account for each one of our customers,

1096
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,599
and sometimes they have more than one, and we're in

1097
00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:24,559
this weird area where we don't know whether or not

1098
00:57:24,639 --> 00:57:27,280
infrastructure as code makes sense for that, and whether or

1099
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,639
not we should be rolling out either. I mean, for

1100
00:57:29,679 --> 00:57:32,920
this we're actually using CloudFormation templates and AWS, but we

1101
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,440
could just easily switch over to open TOFU whether or

1102
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,599
not that even makes sense, or whether or not running

1103
00:57:37,599 --> 00:57:40,119
through this list of resources that a new accounts need

1104
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,880
is a programmatic process, or whether or not it should

1105
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,320
be declarative and infrastructure. And I know we're not the

1106
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,800
only company with this problem. We're not a special snowflake here,

1107
00:57:50,039 --> 00:57:51,559
So I don't know if this is something you've seen

1108
00:57:51,639 --> 00:57:53,960
before and have some wisdom to share.

1109
00:57:54,920 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, I have some wisdom we have. Our most recent

1110
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:06,280
case study was with a company called power Digital. For

1111
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,199
each of their customers, they're basically spinning up a small

1112
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,119
data warehouse in Snowflake that connected data wus and a

1113
00:58:13,159 --> 00:58:15,159
new GitHub repository.

1114
00:58:14,559 --> 00:58:15,679
Speaker 5: And like did a bunch of things.

1115
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,559
Speaker 6: And they had five hundred customers, right, so they were

1116
00:58:20,679 --> 00:58:21,639
doing this constantly.

1117
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:23,719
Speaker 5: And really what.

1118
00:58:23,639 --> 00:58:26,559
Speaker 6: It comes down to is you you do probably want

1119
00:58:26,559 --> 00:58:28,599
that in infrastructure is code because you want to manage

1120
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:31,840
the life cycle of that, right, you might change that

1121
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:36,159
that architecture for that client. Infrastructure that you're like just

1122
00:58:37,199 --> 00:58:39,719
stamping out every time you get a new one. You

1123
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:41,920
might change a little thing, right, You might you might

1124
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,800
do something to it, you know, new tomorrow, and you

1125
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,440
want to roll that out across everyone. Infrastructure is code

1126
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,079
is great for that. You also might, you know, if

1127
00:58:52,079 --> 00:58:55,360
there's any cost associated with those resources, you might want

1128
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:57,679
to destroy that infrastructure when that client goes away or

1129
00:58:57,719 --> 00:59:01,360
customer goes away. I think that infrastructure is code makes sense.

1130
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,760
The point problem is that you just want that to

1131
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:09,079
be a highly automated, low touch workflow. Uh. And that

1132
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,440
is the point that becomes a rub, is that you

1133
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,440
need to kind of come at it from this perspective

1134
00:59:13,559 --> 00:59:15,400
of all right, we need to be we need to

1135
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,920
have our infrastructure as code to be on such rails

1136
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,639
that it needs to get indicate and it needs to

1137
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,480
apply automatically, and it needs to do all of that

1138
00:59:24,599 --> 00:59:26,559
very seamlessly so that we're not needing to.

1139
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 5: Think about it too much.

1140
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:30,159
Speaker 6: We built that for our other clients, So if you

1141
00:59:30,159 --> 00:59:32,800
want to talk one on one afterwards, I more than

1142
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,920
happy to give you all the the info on how

1143
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:35,679
that that worked.

1144
00:59:35,679 --> 00:59:37,519
Speaker 5: But yeah, I think that.

1145
00:59:39,239 --> 00:59:42,519
Speaker 6: Infrastructure should be a thing that we create provision, we

1146
00:59:42,559 --> 00:59:43,360
can change if.

1147
00:59:43,239 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 5: We need to, and we can destroy it if we

1148
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:45,679
need to.

1149
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,519
Speaker 6: And if we just do that with you know, calling

1150
00:59:49,519 --> 00:59:51,480
the a ws STK or we.

1151
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 5: You know, do something.

1152
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,599
Speaker 6: That that's the A w U S CLI bash script

1153
00:59:57,639 --> 01:00:02,199
or whatever it is. Those types of things, they can

1154
01:00:02,719 --> 01:00:05,800
be a they feel very programmatic and they feel like

1155
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,119
a really good solution at the time, but then you

1156
01:00:08,159 --> 01:00:10,079
don't have as much control in the long term.

1157
01:00:10,119 --> 01:00:11,199
Speaker 5: So yeah, that's my thought.

1158
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: Cool, Yeah, I want to switch topics just a little bit,

1159
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,119
or not topics, but switch trajectory. Maybe it's a better

1160
01:00:21,119 --> 01:00:25,840
word for someone who's listening to the podcast. Considering the

1161
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:34,519
consultant versus career DevOps approach, what's your your bullet lists

1162
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:36,000
of pros and cons of each?

1163
01:00:40,039 --> 01:00:44,079
Speaker 6: The pros list is high, is long in terms of

1164
01:00:44,159 --> 01:00:48,519
just like you know, being a consultant, particularly owning my

1165
01:00:48,559 --> 01:00:54,199
own business is very very advantageous to the rest of

1166
01:00:54,199 --> 01:00:56,079
my life in terms of I set my own schedule,

1167
01:00:56,519 --> 01:00:57,920
I decide who I work with.

1168
01:00:59,239 --> 01:01:01,519
Speaker 5: You know, I get to build a team, which is

1169
01:01:01,559 --> 01:01:04,639
really nice and it's you know, they're they're my.

1170
01:01:04,679 --> 01:01:07,639
Speaker 6: People, and you know, I enjoy helping them grow as

1171
01:01:07,679 --> 01:01:11,559
engineers and you know in their career. There's there's a

1172
01:01:11,599 --> 01:01:14,039
lot of things on the pros list. What's more interesting

1173
01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:18,079
probably is the cons list. The the cons I think

1174
01:01:18,119 --> 01:01:20,760
come from you know, there's always going to be some

1175
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,800
level of like feast or famine. You know, I've been

1176
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:26,320
doing this for a long time and I still you know,

1177
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,360
find myself in are we gonna get a new client

1178
01:01:29,519 --> 01:01:32,960
next corner? And usually it all works out right, Like

1179
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:38,519
you know, there's some you know, serendipitous occasion. I've never

1180
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,039
you know, had to let anybody go because we didn't

1181
01:01:41,039 --> 01:01:45,159
have enough work. I've never had to you know, be

1182
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,760
uh out of work for for many months at a time.

1183
01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:53,800
You know, I've had it well. But like, hey, if

1184
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,840
you're just starting and you don't have a network, you

1185
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,599
might go for a certain six months without you know,

1186
01:01:59,639 --> 01:02:02,280
picking up a client and actually having work. So I

1187
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:06,039
think that understanding that you're you're on your own and

1188
01:02:06,239 --> 01:02:09,559
you know your your livelihood can depend on that is

1189
01:02:09,599 --> 01:02:14,320
its own like source of stress, and I think that

1190
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:15,159
there's something there.

1191
01:02:15,519 --> 01:02:17,239
Speaker 5: I think you also really need to be able to

1192
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:18,519
talk to people problems.

1193
01:02:18,639 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 6: A lot of the times I'm talking to clients and

1194
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:24,039
letting them know that I'm I'm there as an individual

1195
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,039
to help them, and I can see that they're stressed.

1196
01:02:28,079 --> 01:02:30,880
I can see that we are are trying to solve

1197
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:35,280
some like deeper emotional need and you need to have

1198
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:39,000
those like soft skills at a deep level to help

1199
01:02:39,079 --> 01:02:43,199
them navigate the right decision and get that stress off

1200
01:02:43,239 --> 01:02:47,800
their plate. And I think those are two things that

1201
01:02:48,119 --> 01:02:50,960
a lot of people that are like really excited about consulting,

1202
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:52,559
they don't think about those two things.

1203
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 5: Consultants are not the best engineers. I'll tell you that.

1204
01:02:57,079 --> 01:02:57,880
I think that the.

1205
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:03,039
Speaker 6: You know, I definitely wouldn't consider myself a you know,

1206
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,360
a wizard code er. I think I can write cleaning code,

1207
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,440
and that's like part of a craft that I really love.

1208
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,079
But I definitely have worked with a lot of smarter

1209
01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:19,360
people in my career, and they're off being you know,

1210
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:24,760
senior engineers or above elsewhere at companies that just tell them, hey,

1211
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:28,320
we need to build this thing. They're not trying to

1212
01:03:28,639 --> 01:03:31,679
solve those people problems. They're not trying to navigate those

1213
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,519
the intricacies of hey, this client you know, consultant relationship.

1214
01:03:36,599 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 5: So I don't know, does that answer your question?

1215
01:03:39,559 --> 01:03:41,039
Speaker 1: It does? Yeah, And I think It highlights one of

1216
01:03:41,119 --> 01:03:46,639
the things that there's almost like a translator skill required

1217
01:03:46,679 --> 01:03:51,679
to be a successful consultant, because your clients typically don't

1218
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:56,239
come to you describing a technical problem. They come to

1219
01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:00,519
you describing some impact that's hattening to their business, and

1220
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,079
you have to be able to translate that talk with

1221
01:04:04,119 --> 01:04:06,880
a mass follow up questions and then translate that into

1222
01:04:07,199 --> 01:04:09,119
a technical problem that you can solve.

1223
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,360
Speaker 5: For sure. Yeah, a lot of it is like can

1224
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:14,480
I repeat that back to you?

1225
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,599
Speaker 6: Like this is what I'm hearing, right, And a lot

1226
01:04:19,679 --> 01:04:21,599
of things come back to that. You have to be

1227
01:04:21,639 --> 01:04:23,880
able to read between those lines and kind of understand

1228
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,840
at a root level, like what's the actual issue here?

1229
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:30,119
They're telling you one thing, but it's something else, and

1230
01:04:30,679 --> 01:04:31,280
that's a skill.

1231
01:04:32,079 --> 01:04:35,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, can I repeat that back to you? Has

1232
01:04:35,159 --> 01:04:38,719
probably got to be one of the most valuable phrases

1233
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:39,679
in humanity.

1234
01:04:40,199 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, let's make sure we're on the same page here.

1235
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,239
That's the way it goes.

1236
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 2: I think there's a maybe an additional connection here, which

1237
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:49,960
you brought up early on who your decisions makers are.

1238
01:04:50,079 --> 01:04:52,440
If you're a consultant, you're selling your services to someone

1239
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:54,880
they have to have money, like an engineer probably isn't

1240
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:57,840
going to make the decision on paying you to come

1241
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,280
in and help, which means you're talking to the like

1242
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:04,119
you said, directors of technology and higher and what problems

1243
01:05:04,239 --> 01:05:05,159
do they think they have?

1244
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:05,639
Speaker 1: Right?

1245
01:05:06,039 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 2: Uh, and they're not like, oh, well, you know, we

1246
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:10,960
have some terriform modules that don't work, right, you know,

1247
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,000
it's probably not what they're coming and saying.

1248
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:14,079
Speaker 5: No matter.

1249
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1250
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,679
Speaker 6: And and the way we approach that is that, hey,

1251
01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:20,440
I want to we want to come in and we

1252
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:22,400
want to solve both problems. Right, we want to solve

1253
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:27,880
the leadership's problems that are typically around scale workflow decreasing

1254
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,000
you know, engineering costs or maintainability costs.

1255
01:05:31,119 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 5: We also want to solve the.

1256
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,239
Speaker 6: Ergonomic problems that the you know, actual people who are

1257
01:05:35,239 --> 01:05:38,639
writing the infrastructure's code or the application engineers or are

1258
01:05:38,679 --> 01:05:39,119
dealing with.

1259
01:05:39,239 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 5: So what we do is, well, typically.

1260
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 6: We have an audit and you know, more and more

1261
01:05:44,079 --> 01:05:48,599
we're we're we're selling that audit as like are our

1262
01:05:48,639 --> 01:05:51,280
way to really help understand an organization and get them

1263
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,920
the right prescriptive guidance that they need. And as part

1264
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:59,119
of that we and we you know, interview engineering leadership.

1265
01:05:59,199 --> 01:06:02,440
We also engineer interview a bunch of the infrastructure engineers

1266
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,320
and application engineers. We make sure that we're kind of

1267
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,360
holistic in approaching the problem, not just from what we're

1268
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,800
being told, but making sure we're uncovering what else is there,

1269
01:06:12,079 --> 01:06:14,519
because we don't want to, you know, leave any turn

1270
01:06:14,719 --> 01:06:15,760
like rock unturned.

1271
01:06:17,159 --> 01:06:18,079
Speaker 5: It's important right on.

1272
01:06:18,559 --> 01:06:20,239
Speaker 1: Just feel like a good time to move on to picks?

1273
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so let's do it all right?

1274
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: Cool, Jillian, You've been out for a couple of weeks,

1275
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,559
so I can only assume that you have been diligently

1276
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,000
researching your next pick. So I'm excited to hear what

1277
01:06:31,079 --> 01:06:31,960
you got this time.

1278
01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:35,119
Speaker 4: I'm just going to keep going with the shameless self

1279
01:06:35,159 --> 01:06:37,079
promotion until I get more clients.

1280
01:06:37,119 --> 01:06:38,199
Speaker 3: This is what I'm going to be doing.

1281
01:06:38,719 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 4: You know, that's a bit on topic of the show,

1282
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:43,639
so you know, if you've been listening to the show lately,

1283
01:06:43,719 --> 01:06:46,199
you know, I really like AI and LMS and all

1284
01:06:46,239 --> 01:06:48,960
of those kind of tools. I do have a service

1285
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:51,679
to get all of that set up for you on

1286
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,639
your own AWS account. This is mostly geared towards data

1287
01:06:54,639 --> 01:06:57,119
science companies, because if you're not a data science company,

1288
01:06:57,159 --> 01:06:59,199
I don't really know what to do with you. Frankly,

1289
01:07:00,039 --> 01:07:03,000
if you need kind of a junior, maybe grad student

1290
01:07:03,079 --> 01:07:08,440
level research assistant to go querying your papers, querying structured

1291
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,480
and unstructured data sets. We've got more data sets being

1292
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,119
added every day so far. The top one is open

1293
01:07:14,159 --> 01:07:17,280
targets for drug discovery. But I've had a whole bunch

1294
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:21,800
of single cell spatial TRANSCRIPTO mix. Like there's just people

1295
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:24,920
are starting to do some pretty like cool and wild

1296
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:27,360
things with it, which is exciting. So if you're interested

1297
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,360
in that, you can go to my website. It's a

1298
01:07:29,559 --> 01:07:33,480
dabbleodevops dot com slash ai and you'll see that there's an.

1299
01:07:33,519 --> 01:07:35,719
Speaker 3: LM data discovery tool this week.

1300
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 4: The page is in fact up last time it may

1301
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:40,440
or may not have been, I'm not sure, but this

1302
01:07:40,239 --> 01:07:41,440
is okay.

1303
01:07:41,599 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 3: There it exists.

1304
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: Open research for drug discovery. Sounds like my time in

1305
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:47,039
high school.

1306
01:07:49,039 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all right, that's good.

1307
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:54,119
Speaker 4: It's a little bit too real for me to say,

1308
01:07:54,199 --> 01:07:56,960
Will and my and my teenagers, so we're just we're

1309
01:07:57,800 --> 01:07:58,559
right on over that.

1310
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:00,639
Speaker 3: You can't do that this morning.

1311
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:05,639
Speaker 2: I think I think that part may actually have to

1312
01:08:05,639 --> 01:08:07,559
be cut from the from the episode before.

1313
01:08:10,039 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if like anything gets cut from these episodes.

1314
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1315
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 4: I've always wondered if the things that we can say

1316
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:18,720
and still have sponsors or do we just have sponsors

1317
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:19,560
at all for this show?

1318
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:25,520
Speaker 2: Okay, we definitely have to cut that part, so I'm

1319
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:28,600
going to market the clip here at this point.

1320
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:34,039
Speaker 6: And it was good though, I once it clicked, I

1321
01:08:34,079 --> 01:08:36,479
got it as that was a great one.

1322
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 1: It's like a it was a joke grenade where you

1323
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:40,680
pull the pin and throw it out and it's three

1324
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:45,279
to five seconds before it actually lands. Yeah, all right, Warren,

1325
01:08:45,319 --> 01:08:46,720
where'd you bring for a pick this week?

1326
01:08:47,039 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1327
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:49,640
Speaker 2: Uh so, I'm gonna be a show for our conference.

1328
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:52,920
I absolutely love DevOps Days. I think it's one of

1329
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:55,439
the best set of conferences anywhere in the world. They're

1330
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,239
volunteer run and my CEO will be giving the keynotes

1331
01:08:59,239 --> 01:09:04,479
speak talk at devop Days Zurch this week. It's all

1332
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:07,439
about just some thinking at authors and it's a it's

1333
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:08,560
actually a great talk.

1334
01:09:09,359 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 1: Right on nice Yeah, I agree with you on devop Stays.

1335
01:09:14,119 --> 01:09:19,680
Devop Stays Amsterdam is probably one of the best I've

1336
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:23,359
been to because those guys they just go out of

1337
01:09:23,399 --> 01:09:26,640
their way so that when you leave all of your

1338
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,000
swag reminds you that you were in Amsterdam.

1339
01:09:29,199 --> 01:09:29,399
Speaker 5: You know.

1340
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:34,279
Speaker 1: It's very very like cultural and historic and authentic and

1341
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:35,399
super cool and.

1342
01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:37,359
Speaker 5: Thoughtful, very cool.

1343
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'll double plus one that with saying that

1344
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:45,920
devop Stays Denver has been there's a really good community

1345
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,399
behind it, really good group of folks, and their talks

1346
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:50,359
are awesome and.

1347
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 5: It's just great community.

1348
01:09:52,319 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 6: If people have not been to their local chapters devop Stays,

1349
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:56,880
they're they're missing.

1350
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:57,520
Speaker 5: Out right on.

1351
01:09:58,560 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 1: All right, Matt, would you bring for a.

1352
01:10:01,239 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 6: I have a book I had I had a hard

1353
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:08,880
time picking, but I am obsessed with this series called

1354
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:14,880
Dungeon Crawler Carl h It is a fantasy sci fi series.

1355
01:10:15,319 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 5: They're on book seven now.

1356
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 6: And you might scoff at the name and you might

1357
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:24,840
think that that's not for you, And I will tell

1358
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:27,800
you that I'm nine for ten on friends that I've

1359
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:30,119
recommended it to and had them go wow, I now

1360
01:10:30,159 --> 01:10:32,880
have a new favorite book that you know.

1361
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 5: It's really consistent. Yeah, yeah, that guy out of my life.

1362
01:10:40,119 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 6: Fantastic, really witty, really funny. There's a talking cat. You

1363
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:46,600
will enjoy it if you read it.

1364
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 1: Just the name Dungeon Crawler Carl sounds. It sounds like

1365
01:10:51,159 --> 01:10:54,079
the hero from an eighties video game. That's such a

1366
01:10:54,079 --> 01:10:54,600
cool name.

1367
01:10:55,119 --> 01:10:56,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's Goofy.

1368
01:10:57,159 --> 01:10:59,079
Speaker 6: I think that a lot of people have an issue

1369
01:10:59,079 --> 01:11:04,199
with the name, but you read it, you'll enjoy it.

1370
01:11:04,199 --> 01:11:06,159
Speaker 2: It makes me think of this like the hardest video

1371
01:11:06,159 --> 01:11:08,359
game I've ever played, and that's not Dark Souls or

1372
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:11,920
Ninja Guide, and it's something called Leicester the Unlikely for

1373
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:13,239
Super Nintendo.

1374
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:14,119
Speaker 4: It's almost like.

1375
01:11:14,079 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 2: An eighties game. You are literally playing just a regular

1376
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:22,840
human who has to navigate quite challenging set of circumstances.

1377
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,159
Like imagine you're in a fantasy world and you don't

1378
01:11:25,159 --> 01:11:27,640
have any superpowers and you can't jump high and if

1379
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:29,399
you fall off a rock you will die.

1380
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:31,319
Speaker 5: That is this game.

1381
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 2: And you get abducted by cannibals and have to like

1382
01:11:34,359 --> 01:11:36,840
steal keys and unwhittle ropes in order to get out,

1383
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,600
and it's it's quite the challenge because there is no

1384
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:42,399
help at all while you're playing, so you will die

1385
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:43,199
over and over again.

1386
01:11:44,359 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 1: Nice.

1387
01:11:45,239 --> 01:11:48,159
Speaker 5: Those games were just brutal. Yeah.

1388
01:11:48,279 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 6: I used to have a I forget what it was,

1389
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:54,159
one of the handhelds back in you know, when I

1390
01:11:54,199 --> 01:11:56,439
was a kid. I feel like it was made by

1391
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:01,039
Sega Games anyway. Yeah, the game gear, Yeah, I had

1392
01:12:01,039 --> 01:12:01,520
the game gear.

1393
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 5: I had save.

1394
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:05,039
Speaker 6: I would play a game for ten hours and I

1395
01:12:05,039 --> 01:12:06,960
couldn't save it and I was like, oh my.

1396
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:11,560
Speaker 5: God, I drove me insane. I think that things were

1397
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:12,840
a little bit different back then.

1398
01:12:14,279 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 3: With no save.

1399
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,319
Speaker 4: But see, this is why you just play cute c

1400
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:19,520
SIM games where you can't die, Like if you guys

1401
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:21,479
are just playing Disney Dream like BALI, this is not

1402
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:23,039
a problem.

1403
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:25,279
Speaker 2: That's pick next week.

1404
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 3: I think I really picked it, but I probably probably.

1405
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:30,720
Speaker 5: Because I want to hear about it.

1406
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:32,640
Speaker 3: It has like my favorite Disney ships.

1407
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,399
Speaker 4: It's Malipicent and Hades, and I just I love that pairing.

1408
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:37,119
Speaker 3: It's so great.

1409
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:44,159
Speaker 1: Well, so my pick is going to be kind of

1410
01:12:44,279 --> 01:12:48,039
letdown after that conversation because I'm picking seat covers.

1411
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,279
Speaker 3: So I like covers.

1412
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:52,399
Speaker 5: I like seat covers.

1413
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I just got a new set of seat

1414
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:59,600
covers from a company called Sheer Comfort. S h e

1415
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,199
A are so like shearing a sheet but shere comfort.

1416
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:06,239
And they've got so many different choices for seat covers.

1417
01:13:06,319 --> 01:13:10,279
And you know, the seats in my truck they were

1418
01:13:10,279 --> 01:13:12,560
getting like mud and dirt and stuff. On them, and

1419
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,039
I thought, I just can't do this to the seats,

1420
01:13:15,119 --> 01:13:19,079
so I bought these seat covers. They're super cool, really

1421
01:13:19,119 --> 01:13:23,640
really well made, pretty easy to put on, look great

1422
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,319
once they're on, and then it's got all like the

1423
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:30,640
nice features, like they're specific to my model of trucks.

1424
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:32,640
So like I've got a Ford truck, So it's got

1425
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:35,319
these little loop pandles that you have to pull to

1426
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:38,920
get the seats to fold down, so it's got the

1427
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:42,439
cutouts for that so that that works natively, and it's

1428
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,960
got you know, it's built so that the side restraint

1429
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:49,560
airbags still work, which may or may be cool at

1430
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:52,079
some point in my life. But a lot of little

1431
01:13:52,119 --> 01:13:55,359
features like that and just really well built. So yeah, sure,

1432
01:13:55,359 --> 01:13:57,159
comfort seat covers. If you're looking for a set of

1433
01:13:57,199 --> 01:14:01,640
seat covers. And then they know they sent with the box,

1434
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:05,399
they sent like a product catalog, which kind of shocked me,

1435
01:14:05,399 --> 01:14:09,680
and it's a huge product catalog. So they also make

1436
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:14,199
in addition to seat covers, they make like full I

1437
01:14:14,239 --> 01:14:16,039
don't even know what you call them. If you wanted

1438
01:14:16,079 --> 01:14:19,079
a blanket for your car truck, they have like shaped

1439
01:14:19,399 --> 01:14:23,159
covers for those, or if you have to put a

1440
01:14:23,199 --> 01:14:26,960
cover on your RV. They make a full custom fit

1441
01:14:27,039 --> 01:14:29,359
cover to fit your RV. Just a lot of things

1442
01:14:29,359 --> 01:14:31,239
that I didn't even know existed that I found out

1443
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:32,600
because they included the catalog.

1444
01:14:33,039 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 2: I think, will your pick next week? Is like you're

1445
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:40,039
already thinking about the McMaster car product, right, Yeah.

1446
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:43,159
Speaker 1: For sure, this is the master the McMaster car catalog

1447
01:14:43,399 --> 01:14:47,720
of seat covers and car wraps.

1448
01:14:49,239 --> 01:14:52,079
Speaker 3: But are they well, if it's like sheer, like sharing

1449
01:14:52,119 --> 01:14:52,800
a sheep.

1450
01:14:53,079 --> 01:14:55,720
Speaker 1: That is one of the options you can get the

1451
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:59,159
sheepskin seat covers, you know, go straight back to the

1452
01:14:59,159 --> 01:15:01,640
eighties and put them in your Camaro with the T tops.

1453
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:06,439
I didn't go that route. I went with a it's

1454
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:10,239
like almost like a neoprene thing that's not going to

1455
01:15:10,279 --> 01:15:13,119
show any mud or dirt or coffee that I spill

1456
01:15:13,159 --> 01:15:13,359
on it.

1457
01:15:14,279 --> 01:15:18,520
Speaker 4: I didn't know people had like well seat covers, And

1458
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:20,800
now that's a new existential dread for me to have

1459
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:22,800
that anytime I get into somebody's car, I'm gonna wonder,

1460
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:23,600
oh no, is this wall?

1461
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:24,560
Speaker 3: And am I going to die?

1462
01:15:25,279 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 1: But well, I think you're pretty safe as long as

1463
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,880
whoever you're with isn't wearing like a mullet and a handlebar,

1464
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:34,960
mustache and a camaro. You're probably gonna be okay, that's true.

1465
01:15:35,239 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 3: I can probably self select for these things.

1466
01:15:37,079 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I think it's pretty safe. All right.

1467
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:44,960
Now that I've finished offending everyone on the list, I

1468
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:50,640
think we've got ourselves an episode. Matt, thanks for joining us. Man,

1469
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:51,920
it's been great talking to you.

1470
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:52,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1471
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:56,119
Speaker 5: It's a really good conversation. Folks appreciate it. Yeah, good questions,

1472
01:15:56,359 --> 01:15:57,000
good topics.

1473
01:15:57,279 --> 01:16:00,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. So be sure and check out Matt's website master

1474
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:01,880
points masterpoint dot io.

1475
01:16:02,039 --> 01:16:03,640
Speaker 5: Is that right, Yes it is.

1476
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if you need consulting services or if you are,

1477
01:16:08,039 --> 01:16:10,199
you know, wanting to try your career out, check it

1478
01:16:10,199 --> 01:16:14,640
out and see if he's hiring. Arren Chillian. Thank you

1479
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,600
both for being on the show with me today. Thank you,

1480
01:16:19,319 --> 01:16:22,840
and for everyone listening. Thanks for listening, and I'll see

1481
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:24,399
everyone next week.