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Speaker 7: All right, Jim Jattress we lookome to Jay Burden Show.
How are you doing?
Speaker 8: Jay?
Speaker 13: Great to be here? You come highly recommended. I hope
I come likewise highly recommended.
Speaker 7: Well, this is one of the fun things about having
an interview show that's been running as long as mine.
Is it a certain point you crossed the threshold where
you've sort of reached the maximum number of people you
can find organically, and so you can reach out to
friends and get recommendations, and so I never encountered your
work before being recommended it. And I'm very pleased to
have you on the Show's it's you sort of get
to cheat, right, you sort of get to outsource your guests.
So for my audience who might not be familiar with you,
who are you and what do you do?
Speaker 8: Who the hell are you? Why are you here? Pretty much?
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm what they call in Russian And we've seen
chili viak a former person, a person who was formerly something.
That was a term that came round after the Revolution
when people had been something but they weren't anymore. So
I'm just very briefly up in a military family. My
father was a fighter pilot. My parents were both born
in the United States. All for my grandparents were from Greece,
from Sparta. Grew up in Germany, a lot of places
in the United States. I went to law school after
undergrad school because I didn't know what else to do.
Speaker 8: Never practiced law.
Speaker 13: Went from there into the diplomatic service. I was a
foreign Service officer for about six and a half years,
serving in Mexico and then later at the Office of
Soviet Affairs back in those days under the Reagan administration
and the Office of the Undersecretary for Political Affairs. And
then I worked on Capitol Hill in the Republican leadership
for about seventeen years as a foreign policy analyst, writing legislation,
analyzing legislation, monitoring the floor action, things of that sort,
writing papers on policy issues, the Balkans, Eastern Europe, Central America,
South Africa, all that fun stuff. And then after I
left government service, I was with a couple of major
law firms in DC as an evil Washington lobbyist for
a while, and then also with some smaller boutique firms.
And I retired about five years ago as a Virginia
country gentleman. And so's that's who I am. And I
do a lot of talk on you know, various podcasts,
and I used to write quite prolifically. In fact, you know,
just to plug my book here, I tried to warn you.
My collected writings for the last five decades also useful
for home defense. And I don't really write anymore. My
muse has deserted me. But I can blab like any
other idiot online, so I do that sometimes.
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, fair enough, I mean, if we're talking about
blabbing on the internet. I'm far from the first person
to criticize you there. I've made somewhat of a middling
online career out of it.
Speaker 8: So I want to.
Speaker 7: Talk with you specifically about US Russia relations because effectively
my entire life, Russia has been you know, a bugaboo.
I sort of came of age during you know, the
first Trump years, where you know, Russia Gate was you know,
the scandal to end all scandals. Now, obviously with the
you know, Russia Ukraine War, that has continued to be
the case, at least for a large percentage of you know, America.
But I assume that relations between the two countries did
not start with the election of Donald Trump. Obviously there's
a dramatic before and after the Cold War. So if
you could someone who lived through it, can you speak
about the transition from you know, first fighting the Cold
War then to Russia as a you know, a nominally
regular nation, and how did that lead us to this
sort of contentious relationship we have today.
Speaker 13: Yeah, I could certainly do that. One thing I want
to flag because I think a lot of people misunderstand
this point. I think there are a lot of people,
especially younger people who don't haven't lived through that history,
who simply assume that this is kind of a carryover
or hangover from the First Cold War with the Soviet Union.
You know, don't they realize it's not the Soviet Union anymore,
it's not communists anymore.
Speaker 8: Why are we so hostile to Russia? And that isn't it?
Speaker 13: In fact, we are far far more hostile to Russia
today as a non communist country than we ever were
during the Soviet period, during the depths of the Cold War.
I mean, just to point, you know, whatever you think
of Ladin or Putin personally, no Soviet leader, about Krushchev,
not even Stolin, was ever demonized by the American media
and the American establishment the way this guy is. And
so this is a qualitatively different thing. Just just to
back things up a little bit, maybe on a macro level.
To start with, Russia and the United States have no
particular reason to be enemies, and for that matter, they
have no particular reason to have any close complementary relationship either.
I mean, if there are two countries on the planet
that really have no reason to interact with each other
for good or ill, it's the United States and Russia.
I mean, Russia is a very self contained country in
terms of you know, it's resource base, it's you know,
it supplies everything it needs. That there's a country that
could be a perfect autarchy, it would be Russia because
they can supply all their needs domestically. The United States
isn't quite as as in that position, but we are
a pretty substantial operation if we were to focus on
our own domestic needs rather than trying to project power
all across the world. So you know, we have no
reason to be in each other's faces, and we have
no reason really to be dependent on each other either.
You know, back during the nineteenth century, when the major
antagonists of both the United States and Russia was the
British Empire, we actually had a fairly cordial relationship with Russia.
You know, not that I'm a big Lincoln partisan in
the Civil War and so forth, but the recent Russia
supported the Union during the Civil War is because the
British Empire supported the Confederacy, so they were you know,
they just fought the Crimean War with Russia, and so
you know, they inclined toward a strong friendship toward the
United States. And again we you know, we get in
all the details of the revolution, communism and all that.
Speaker 8: The long and the.
Speaker 13: Short of it is when we get toward the end
of the communist period, when the Soviet government collapsed, when
the more soft pack collapsed, and communism and Russia stopped
being a global movement, that was problematic for the United States.
I think there was a lot of naivete, at least
on my part, that we would go back to a
more or less normal world, non ideological world, but existed
before nineteen fourteen. What I did not anticipate is said
the United States would embark upon a new career that's
kind of a new Soviet Union. Instead of you know, peace,
progress and socialism. Ideologically, we're going to impose democracy, human rights,
and corporate free markets on the rest of the world.
Speaker 8: And at that.
Speaker 13: Time, in the nineteen nineties, when Russia was in chaos,
we thought we had Russia under lock and key. We
thought we had a puppet government in there with Yelsen,
and we could just expand NATO, we could do anything
we wanted. All Russia would do is say yes, sir, yes, sir,
how high would you like me to jump? Sir? And
I think what happened was is then when Putin came in,
who was remember appointed by Yelsin, we have simply assumed
he would carry on in that same direction.
Speaker 8: He didn't.
Speaker 13: He began to reassert Russian national interests, including their you
might say, their regional security interests. And even worse, Jay,
I think this is something that people need to understand.
Even worse, he abandoned communist ideology, I mean had already
been abandoned in the nineteen nineties, and wanted to build
Old Russia back as a strong national state with something
of an orthodox Christian ethos to it, although it's still
officially a secular state, and that was completely unacceptable to
the globalist ideology that motivates American global American global quests
for hegemony. That's the fundamental problem between the United States
and Russia today.
Speaker 8: I would say.
Speaker 7: Several things there, but one to your to your point
about the you know, the the sort of pre Soviet relations.
If any of the listeners or you know, fellow gun
history officionados, they'll be well aware of the fact that
there was a lively arms trade between the Dissaarish regime
and Americans, right small firms at the time relatively small
firms like you know, Smith and Wesson sent revolvers that
you know, Winchester, lover actions, all of these things like
there were relatively normal trade relations by the standards of
the day. Similarly, when we get to FDR, we have
to understand that FDR was very, very soft on the communists.
You can read, you know, any number of books on this.
Garrett Garrett, and oh, I can't remember the other guy's
name on the top of my head, but multiple people
have heard about this kind of the origins of the
American Old right. But coming up to the you know,
the falling of the Wall, that moment where you know
the Cold War was over. That reaction you brought up
of oh, we can go back to being a normal
country again. You know, we are no longer required to
fight this global war is a common one. When you
talked to you know, the paleo conservatives who you know,
many of whom I'm lucky enough to know you I'm
friends with and consider major intellectual influences. It was all right.
We we were Cold warriors. We engaged in this in
good faith. We thought that the issue was communism taking
over the world. That is no longer a problem. So
now America can be a country again. Yeah, and very
clearly the neo conservatives won that. I don't know if
they won the debate, but they got to be in charge,
and so America became right the world police. So you've
mentioned the sort of, you know, the rise of you know,
Vladimir Putin. I'm I'm just gonna start off by saying
I'm American enough that I cannot pronounce words from any
other language. I apologize to everyone ahead of time.
Speaker 8: But point is.
Speaker 7: That sort of transition from you know, viewing Russia as
sort of a potential like Lackey or kind of you know,
economic zone for exploitation. We really can't talk about that
without talking about George H. W. Bush and particularly the
guarantees although these have become sort of controversial the US
gave to Russia. Obviously this becomes relevant with the Russia
Russia Ukraine War. Do you want to explain those a
little bit for the listener?
Speaker 13: Sure to start with, but just something you commented on
and I think should be emphasized that I did miss
is that during the Soviet period and certainly going all
the way back to FDR, there was a very strong,
if not sympathy for the Soviet Union, but at least
kind of a benign attitude toward frankly Communism by progressive
elements in the West and including in the American establishment.
When I was at the Soviet desk in the State Department,
I had the reputation well deserved, I hope, as being
a cross eyed anti communist. Zalad which I was. My
father at the time was the Air Force ATCHE in Moscow,
so we could see the same operation from both sides
of the of the you know, most from the Washington
and Moscow standpoint.
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Speaker 13: And my colleagues, generally speaking, had a very benign view
of the Soviet Union and communism as such. In fact,
they were anti Russian, but communism was the only good
thing about Russia. At least it was progressive and secular.
I mean, I remember writing some papers, briefing papers where
I suggested, you know, that non communist Russia would be
a great thing, and they were horrified. I mean, the
idea that it would be better if the whites had
won the Civil War rather than the Reds was swimming.
Oh but they were a bunch of fascists or you know,
you know, so on and so forth. That was the
attitude at the time. And uh and then you know,
to my somewhat to my surprise, I guess, being a
NAIU fellow, is that when communism fell, I say, well, great,
that's wonderful, Russia is back.
Speaker 8: We can get rid of about.
Speaker 13: Communist They were horrified that same people have been very
benign towards the sou Union as a communist state, became
very very anti Russian. So, you know, again, I don't
think we can underestimate the extent to which this progressive, globalist,
essentially godless mindset that dominates the thinking of all the
establishments in the Western country is a huge part of
this antipathy toward Russia.
Speaker 8: And that's all.
Speaker 13: But they also hate people like Victor Orbon and Hungary
and so forth, because they want to build a strong
national state and even a Christian society, not one that
shares their you know, worship the sacred Rainbow flag values.
So there's a huge part of that. Now, back to
what you said about George Bush, George Bush the elder,
I would not make him out to be the major
culprit here at all. I think he did give those assurances,
and I think he probably gave them a good faith. Now,
he probably assumed that that meant And remember he was
the guy who coined the phrase the New World Order.
Maybe he's the one who thought that, Okay, fine, we'll
just pull Russia in as another satellite like the rest
of Europe and everything will be well after that. But
he did give those assurances, maybe he didn't think was
necessary to expand NATO. It was actually Bill Clinton who
of course pursued the first round of NATO expansion.
Speaker 7: And.
Speaker 13: He did so apparently largely for American domestic political reasons
back then.
Speaker 8: It seems quat to say so. Now.
Speaker 13: Back then Illinois was actually in play for American presidential elections,
and he was told, Hey, if you have promised expansion
of NATO to include Poland, you'll get all the Polish
votes in Chicago and you can carry Illinois. So he
said that was a good idea. I don't think even
thought that through, and he've kind of figured, well, Russians
are flat on their backs, they can't object to it anyway.
So that went forward. The real big crunch actually was
not under Bill Clinton or on the Bush of the Elder,
was under Bush the younger, because under him, that's when
you really had the neo cons in the saddle, the
same people that brought us into the Iraq War in
two thousand and three. And that's when we had the
big bang expansion in two thousand and four. And I
remember I was working at the Senate at this time.
There was a lot of by the way, there was
a lot of opposition to the first round of NATO
expansion back in nineteen ninety six. There were about ten
left wing Democrats and ten right wing Republicans who opposed
the first round of NATO expansion. When the second that
was just Czechia, Hungary and Poland. When the second round
went in for Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, the Baltic States, there
was no opposition at all. Are they are already firmly
in the saddle. We're going to do this. NATO will
be the security guarantee in Europe and if the Russians
don't like it, they can lump it. And remember two
Ladive her Putin at that time wasn't necessarily opposed to
any of that. In fact, he even contacted as early
as as Bill Clinton, well, Russia would be interested in
joining NATO as well, what do you think about that?
And Clinton replied, well, yeah, that should be possible. And
then of course he went back and talked to his
advisors and they said, oh, no way, Jose, we're gonna
let Russia into NATO. They're the object of NATO expansion,
they're not a participant. And that's that's when things I
think you know, really started to go off the rails
with the Russians. Even then, it took the Russians a
long time to wake up and smell the coffee. And
I think what really really crunched it for them with
two things. One was the bombing of Serbia in nineteen
ninety nine, when all you know, I can remember people
Russians saying to me, you know, anti communist Russians, for
all these years, we never believed all the things the
Communists said about you, about how aggressive you were. Now
we know that that we're all true that the first thing.
The second thing was in two thousand and eight, and
this is something I was very involved with in opposing it,
because I was working for the bishop, the Serbian Orthodox
Bishop of Kosovo at that time, opposing American policy on Kosovo.
And when we pushed through the claim that Kosovo was
becoming an independent state in the two thousand and eight
against security counts. Because you know, one of the things
that when when the Russians would object to what you
were talking about about the expansion of NATO, well, George
Bush promised you we wouldn't expand NATO. And the answer
was should have gotten writing, should have gotten writing.
Speaker 8: Well.
Speaker 13: In nineteen ninety nine, they did get in writing in
a Security Council resolution that Koso even after the Natal aggression,
that Kosovo would remain an autonomous province of Serbia. It's
right there in twelve forty four, the Security Council resolution,
and the Russians say, okay, we got in writing this time,
and the Americans said, yeah, well, we don't care, rip
rip rip, We're going to do it anyway. And that's
when they realized, okay, all bets are off. And then
of course, in the same year two thousand and eight,
they said Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO,
and that's when they realized, okay, we got it. That's
when we passed in a way, that's when we passed
the point of no return. That's when the Russians said, okay,
we can't trust these people.
Speaker 8: We have to.
Speaker 13: Prepare self help measures of our own. That's when they
began their military build up. That's when they began to
say Redline and the sand and of course the thing
the signal that was the short War in Georgia in
two thousand and eight, when you know the Selika Shaka
sakash feel the president at the time launched an attack
on the Russian peacekeepers in south of Sessia, killed a
number of them, and the Russians felt they had to respond,
and so you know that, you know, that's when the
real shift came.
Speaker 8: I'm sorry, I'm sort.
Speaker 13: Of throwing this out there in a fog, but it's
it's something that you know, sort of progressed through these stages.
Speaker 7: So I want to pull back the timeline just a
little bit to talk about the global war on terror,
because if I'm correct, Russia was very accommodating to our response. Also,
as far as I understand, Putin was very gracious in
the aftermath of the September eleventh attacks. So the the
idea that this has been you know, this sort of
like mutual antipathy forever, just doesn't hold up water at all.
There were, you know, many actions in good faith saying here,
we will give you this gift, we will let you
use our air bases to conduct this you know, ultimately
ill conceived invasion. But you know that's neither here nor there.
It was nonetheless sort of a gift. And I'm glad
you brought up the the uh, you know, action in
in in Serbia, because it's interesting the way in which
every one of America's enemies is sort of continually recast
as Hitler. You know, you have obviously slovan On Melassovitch
is Hitler. Saddam Hussein was Hitler, and now we have Putler, right,
the sort of opid portmanteau of you know, the Russian
and the.
Speaker 8: Illustria lot Oftler.
Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly. And so one of the things that I
have often thought about is certainly there is a you know,
the kind of general globalist antipathy to you know, a nationalized,
a national state acting in its own self interest, particularly
one kind of leaning towards you know, Christianity. But also
and you know, I don't like to cast dispersions on
someone based off of their you know, ethnic background, but
it is awfully suspicious that there are a lot of
Ukrainians or former Ukrainians in the State Department who seem
to really have an act to grind with Russia. Is
am I accurate in pointing that out?
Speaker 13: Oh yeah, well again, and to tie it all together
back again, you're not old enough to remember this, but
back in the fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties, there were
these ethnic lobbies in the United States that marketed themselves
as anti communists, but what they really were was the
World War Two Losers Association. They were Hungarians, West Ukrainians, Poles.
I mean, the Poles were sort of a mixed bag
in terms of how they came out of World War Two.
They actually came out pretty well. They lost their eastern part,
which was largely Ukrainian and Beila Russian ethnically, but then
gained a lot of former German territory with the Germans
cleared out, so didn't work all that badly for them,
although of course they suffered horrendously during the war. The
long and the short of it is, these people did
not like the borders that were drawn in Eastern Europe
and Central Europe after World War Two.
Speaker 8: They wanted to go.
Speaker 13: Back basically to the borders that existed in nineteen forty
three under German occupation. And if you look at a
map in nineteen forty three and the map that diverged
emerged after the Wars in the nineteen nineties, yeah, there's
there's a lot of similarities there. Very different from the
map that existed from nineteen forty.
Speaker 8: Five to to to.
Speaker 13: The nineteen nineties.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so you did it.
Speaker 13: And the thing is, and this is where we get
into American politics too. Most Americans, if you will, you know,
wasps ethnic Americans, people with no hyphen you know, attached
to them, are very naive when it comes to ethnicity, religion,
all these other markers of identity. Uh. You know, if
you have a bunch of people with you know, Eastern
European names that are saying, oh, yeah, we're I tell
communists and we want to fight the Civic Union, they said, yeah, great,
were there there were the It doesn't even occur to them.
They just have ethnic access to grind, you know that
they just want to have their own ethnic states and
large and the expense of the people who are the
historic enemies. That was a huge part of this.
Speaker 8: So yeah, you do have obviously.
Speaker 15: A a lot of people with those ethnic backgrounds who say, hey,
if we can get the Americans to on board to
you know, call the people we don't like in their
leader Hitler, we can go get them to put sanctions
on and bomb for our behalf and reimpose our borders
from nineteen forty three.
Speaker 13: The other thing, of course, and of course is very
controversial you have a huge Jewish element among the neo conservatives.
They've got their own ethnic access to I still remember
one of my Jewish colleagues at the State Department back
in the nineteen eighties. You know, we're talking about polls
and Russians and Ukrainians and Germans and all that, and
his answer was, well, as far as I'm concerned, Germans,
Polls and Russians all deserve each other.
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Speaker 13: Now, I don't think he was saying that as an American.
I think he was saying that projecting his own ethnic
points of view. And of course this is also where
you get into, you know, the huge kind of you know,
Trotsky eye element in the in the in the neo
conservative movement, you know, back from to you know, Max Schachtman,
back in the nineteen thirties, Social Democrats USA and all
these people that flooded in, starting really with the Reagan
administration but really coming into their own and the second
of the Bush, the Younger administration basically running the place,
and of course they have their own ethnic access to grind.
They also have their their ideological hangover, you know, from
Trotsky against Styland. That is part of the way they
look at the world. And unfortunately, again most Americans haven't
got a clue about this stuff. They just think, oh yo,
they're standing up for a strong America. Oh yeah, they're
finding common They have no idea what any of this
stuff is about, and they didn't in those days. That's
one reason they can be so influential.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean to that point, in a much more
innocuous version, you see this with you know, Armenians in
the US. They have a powerful ethnic lobby, and you're
always constantly trying to get different states and municipalities to,
you know, recognize the Armenian genocide. Like, look, I'm not
a big fan of Turks. I imagine giving your ethnic
and religious background, you probably aren't either. But to be
perfectly honest.
Speaker 13: A Perkoff don has been simply delightful. But that's a
whole other story.
Speaker 7: Fair enough, But to be honest, I literally do not
see how it matters in the slightest what the city
of Jacksonville, Florida thinks about a genocide that happened one
hundred and ten years ago literally across the planet.
Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah, but here's an interesting thing.
Speaker 13: I mean, as you've pointed out, that was always the
holy grail for the Armenian lobby, which is a very
substantial lobby, although not as powerful as people think it is.
And certainly they're they're on their back foot now. I mean,
they've got nothing right now in Washington right now, especially
since there's an American puppet Pashnyan as the Prime Minister there.
Speaker 8: He's just a quizzling he's just the worst. But that's
a whole other topic. You know.
Speaker 13: For years and years and years they wanted to get
that genocide resolution through the Congress, and they couldn't do
it because it was not only opposed by the Turkish lobby,
which doesn't have a big ethnic lobby in the United States,
but they do have a lot of support from the
national security apparatus because Turkey buys a lot of military equipment.
Speaker 8: They've got a lot of you know, clout there.
Speaker 13: But their big ace in the hole was the Israeli
lobby because for a lot of the period of the
the post World War II into the Cold War period,
Turkey and Israel were like this because Turkey was a kimalist, secular,
anti Islamic power and they were part of a big
part of Israel's strategy in the region. Well, that all
ended with Airdlon when an Islamist comes to power, and
of course the Israelis and the Turks don't really really
get along anymore, and the Israelis turned The reason they
didn't want that resolution going through was one they didn't
want to fend their ally Turkey. And two they had
that little copyright marker on the word genocide. They didn't
want anybody else have it. Well, as soon as Air
Doolon came to power, they switched sides and that resolution
went right through the Congress like nothing, because the Israelis
were now supporting it rather than opposing it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And the reason I brought that up is, you know,
I know, particularly strong opinions on Armenians. But you see
the same thing. You know, when you are an international empire,
when you control the world, everyone's ethnic problems become your
problem one way or another.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 13: It also and also you can manipulate them. I mean,
if your your goal is, as what Bill Crystal and
Bob Kagan pointed out in a nineteen nineties nineteen ninety
six article, their goal should be American global hegemony forever.
That's our goal to rule. You know, we keep here
of Hittler one of the rule of the world. Well,
we do want to rule the world. That's how we
got into this juncture. That's why we've got not only
this situation with the Russians in Eastern Europe, but you know,
we got the situation with Iran we've got have a
war with China, you know, in five years. According to
a lot of people, the way they're talking, we want
to rule the world. You have the American Anglo American,
if you will, or Anglo Israel, American Fella, socratic global
empire against the kind of the Eurasian Block, which is Russia, China,
Iran and a few other countries and a few outliers
like like Venezuela. That's the situation we've got ourselves into.
And I don't see much of any way out of it.
And you're right, this hitler of the month, you know,
I guess, I guess Maduro is now the new hitler
of the month. You know, Sadi Mussein was, Asad was,
Milosia Vis was. By the way, I testified as as
offense witness in Milosia Vic's trial at the Hague. And
you know, it's what kind of say, it's all lies,
it's all lies.
Speaker 8: And basically they they.
Speaker 13: Lie, they lie like Bolsheviks because essentially they are Bolsheviks.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, there's there's definitely something to that. I mean,
the look, I don't want to turn this into a
discussion about about Venezuela. Uh, but you know, very clearly
the narrative being presented to us in the mainstream media
about Venezuela's is complete and tooital nonsense. Yeah, and look
like Okay, is invading Venezuela a mistake on the order
of magnitude of invading Afghanistan? Okay, maybe not, but that
is not a great justification for doing anything.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 13: We'll find not when it happens, I guess would make
sure how to be even bigger mistake.
Speaker 8: We don't know.
Speaker 7: So I want to continue with our narrative on you know,
the US in Russia and move up to sort of
the mid two thousand tents, right, the kind of end
of the Obama era, which is I think the first
time that many Americans, myself included, became aware of the
fact that one Ukraine was not a part of Russia, right,
that it was its own country, and that there was,
you know, a border dispute going on between you know,
the Ukraine and Russia. And I have a very actually
I've probably tipped my hand by saying the Ukraine. They're
all mad at me already. But I remember very distinctly
I was on a plane as a teenager, and I
remember there was a Ukrainian woman speaking to some colleague
directly in front of me, just all upset about this,
this dispute, you know, just horribly offended. You know the
US needs to go in. So could you provide a
little bit of context on you know, the kind of
initial I armed conflicts in you know, the twenty fourteen era.
Speaker 13: Yeah, but I think again this takes a little back up.
I mean, you say, you know, Ukrainians being very offended, etc.
How do I put this difference between Russians Ukrainians, Beila,
Russians is essentially like the difference between you know, Saxons,
Bavarians and Prussians, who are basically all Germans or for
that matter, Austrians that you know, I mean, the difference
between a Bavarian and an Austrian is virtually zero. I mean,
the difference between a Bavarian and Prussian is much greater
than the difference between a Bavarian and an Austrian in
terms of language, religion, history, and so forth. The fact
that there is a Ukrainian state is essentially came into
existence in nineteen ninety one is essentially an accident of
history caused by the way the Bolsheviks drew lines within
the Soviet Union. You know, during during the communist era,
has been a Ukrainian state, a viable Ukrainian state and history,
and you know, it only came into existence because of
the way the Sovietion happened to fall apart in.
Speaker 8: Nineteen ninety one. The Russians accepted that.
Speaker 13: They basically said, you know, to think of it in
terms of saying, well, you know, I suppose if one
Germany was defeated in World War iiO, not only was
Austria made into a separate country again, suppose they said, okay,
Bavaria is now going to be become a separate, separate
country too. Actually, Bavaria does have a history of being
a separate kingdom under the Writtelsbach dynasty, suppose, but the
Russian attitude toward that was fairly copathetic. Well, okay, Ukrainians
are essentially another kind of Russian in the broad sense.
They're all Ruts so to speak, based on historical and
religious and other circumstances. But now they have a separate state.
They never had one before, but they have one now.
It's kind of a very what's the word I want
incoherent state. In the Senate that you have a lot
of people in it that never really consider themselves Ukrainians,
except that's the way the Soviet Union drew the lines.
Speaker 8: But hey, we can live.
Speaker 13: With that a lot, as long as it's as long
as you know, we're all getting along with everybody in Europe,
everybody in the West. NATO is not threatening us. When
NATO began to threaten them by expansion, that became a concern.
Speaker 8: And then when.
Speaker 13: In two thousand and eight then the North Atlantic Council
declared that Georgia and Ukraine will become part of NATO,
that's when the Russians drew the line. And even at
the time William Burns, who just was Biden's CIA director,
was the ambassador in Moscow at the time. He wrote
a memo back to Washington and said, and yet means yet, no,
means no. They will not accept this, and even that
they were not willing to.
Speaker 8: Pull it back.
Speaker 13: I mean because of their mania for global domination and
putting Russia in a position where it simply could not
defend itself, where we would be able to fatally compromise
their national security by bringing Ukraine into NATO and building
up a NATO force there and putting NATO weapons into Ukraine.
Speaker 8: They didn't care about that.
Speaker 13: They were simply were, you know, playing chess on the board.
We will put Russia in this position, forced them back
into the satellite status they had under Yeltsin in the
nineteen nineties, and eventually, I would say, break Russia up
in smaller pieces that are more easily digestible. And so
that's where we you know, that's where Ukraine became essentially
what I would call it attractive nuisance, became a football
or a platform where we could then expand our anti
Russia policy in a way that fatally compromised Russian security,
and they thought they could get away with it. I mean,
that's why we had two revolutions, not just the Orange
Revolution in two thousand and four, and that when that
really didn't pan out and it fizzled. And then YADAKOVI,
by the way, I worked for back as a lobbyist
back in two thousand and three to two thousand and
five when he was Prime Minister of the Ukraine and
then a presidential candidate that.
Speaker 8: They you know what, He.
Speaker 13: Then won the election in twenty ten, and b by
I said, oh, he's pro Russian.
Speaker 8: He wasn't.
Speaker 13: He was actually somebody who wanted to maintain this neutral,
this neutral position for Ukraine because he realized Ukraine is
such a divided country. If it attempted to go to
either one camp or the other, the Western camp or
the Russian camp, it would tear the country apart, which
is precisely what happened. So he was always insistent, no,
Ukraine must be a bridge, not a wall. It must
be a bridge between east and west. You know, when
he was overthrown in the Waidan Revolution in twenty fourteen,
he was overthrown because he wanted modifications, not even a rejection,
but modifications on a trade deal with the European Union.
That what utterly devastated industry, especially in the eastern part
of the country, which was his electoral base. And also
because what he wanted and also what the Russians wanted.
They say, well, look, if you can have a trade
relationship between Ukraine and the EU, why not make it
a three way negotiation between Russia, Ukraine and the European Union,
so we could have one big trade pack that accommodates everybody,
both east and West, and also has Ukraine in a
position have a relationship with both blocks that was unacceptable
to the West. They said, no, you must take the
Western path. No other path is possible for you. Yanikovich says, well,
we can't do that, well, then we'll overthrow you, which
is what we did.
Speaker 7: And that's one of the And again, I am not
I'm not a I would not consider myself a Rusiphile.
To me, I view Putin as someone who is You've
got the interest of his country at heart, which I admire,
but his country is not my country.
Speaker 8: Right, yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 7: Yeah, But nonetheless I've grown to resent Ukraine really because
of the last several years, and a large part of
that is the bizarre insistence of the sacredness of not
the correct form that word will go with it, of
Ukrainian democracy, the idea that this is some you know, perfect,
you know, Western style political system, and obviously you have
what you've just mentioned, the sort of you know, back
and forth, you know, revolutions and counter revolutions. Over the
past ten years.
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Speaker 7: But also the fact that Ukraine is horribly corrupt and
persecuting Christians. So if you could, could you speak to
a little bit to the kind of corruption of the
Ukrainian government. I mean, obviously there's been a big reveal
on that relatively recently. But also the you know, the
anti Christian I mean, to be honest, if it were
a different group, we might use the term pergrop.
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, you know, there are two fatal flaws maybe
three of the can geography. But two fatal flaws of
Ukraine when he became an independent state. One, as we mentioned,
was sort of the diversity of the country. People in
it who had really nothing in common in terms of
how they interpreted their identity. Had people in the east
that were basically Russians. People in the west far west
especially there were Ukrainian nationalists. People in between their sort
of mushy they didn't agree on what Ukraine was. You
had that, But as you point out, the corruption, I mean,
just like Russia in the nineteen nineties was controlled basically
the whole socialist property of the Soviet Union that theory
belonged to everybody but really belonged to the state, became
just was shamelessly looted by various oligarchs who found themselves
in control with vast amounts of wealth. That was true
in Russia, putting as largely brought those people under control,
but it was certainly true in Ukraine and continues to
be true today, where basically the state is very weak
and these oligarchic interests treat the state as their plaything
for enriching themselves and holding on and using their wealth
to buy political power. And that's the condition that is
Ukraine has always been in and the level of corruption,
and let's face it, not not only just under this regime,
but any of the previous governments was shameless, I mean
enough to make a Nigerian prince blush. I mean it's
just the worst. And that continues to be true. Now
as far as the church situation goes, this is again
where the United States. You know, a lot of people
tend to be rather dismissive of religion as a geopolitical force,
I mean as something People like Jay Dyer, for example,
have pointed out that the United States has a very
long history of using religion as a tool of influence.
You know, going back to the World Council of Churches,
you know, the CIA is very close relationship with people
in the in the in the Vatican and also in
the Faunar, which is the headquarters of the UH, the
the Church of Constantinople, they have cu medical patriarchate in
the Orthodox world. UH. They saw an opportunity to split,
not only politically split Ukraine from Russia, but also spiritually
to split Ukraine from Russia because one of the things
that really binds Russians and Ukrainians and beelo Russians and
Moldovans and frankly you know Serbs and Bulgarians and Greeks
and other people.
Speaker 8: Is their common Orthodox faith. How do you do that? Well,
you know there are there, there are.
Speaker 13: In many countries small schismatic groups that are not in
communion with, you know, the established, recognized Canonical Church. And
there are a couple of groups like that in Ukraine.
And what the United States did, in concert with the
Patriarch of Constantinople, which is strongly under American influence, is
to say, well, let's take a couple of these small
splinter groups and recognize them as the legitimate Ukrainian Orthodox Church,
and take the canonical Church and de recognize them and
call them schismatics and pro Russian agents, and then have
the state come in crush them, seize their property, their priests,
and try to transfer all that property to the new
church that we've created and called the canonical Church. So
that's what's going on. You have a state supported church
based on some really marginal, uh split splinter group figures
that have now been elevated by the state to the
to the official church, while the real church, which is
the majority of the population, is being being crushed simply
by by police and mob methods where they said, people
into the church, they you know, they they lock up
the church, throw the parishioners out, turn it over to
the new body that they recognize. Very often the church
then simply stays locked or unused because there are no
parishioners or clergy to serve that church anymore. And the
and the real parishioners are forced to hold services and
private houses or or or in the forest, you know,
things that they used to do back under under the Bolsheviks.
The priests are arrested, they're they're sometimes drafted into the army.
There was one case of a father what was his name, Mikolas,
who was drafted, sent in the army and was thereafter
killed on the front. Maybe it was just shot down
by the Ukrainian authorities, we don't really know. There are
a couple of bishops who.
Speaker 8: Are in jail.
Speaker 13: So this is basically a campaign against the Church that
is recognized by almost all of the Orthodox world except
for a couple of jurisdictions like Constantinople that earn their
strong American influence.
Speaker 8: And again, in fact, there'll.
Speaker 13: Be a day on Capitol Hill coming up here on
December sixteenth, I'll be participating in where we'll be going
to correct congressional offices trying to highlight what our government
is supporting over there, which is against. By the way,
I was one of the authors of the International Religious
Freedom Act back in the nineteen nineties that tried to
highlight religious freedom as an elegant of American policy. Unfortunately,
it simply became another tool by which we can manipulate
affairs abroad to say, oh, we have we support religious freedom.
Ukraine should have their own church. Well, it's really this
fake church manufacture for political reasons.
Speaker 7: It's it's somewhat ridiculous hypothetical. But if you can imagine
a sort of red Dawn situation right where the you know,
the Cubans take over America and then they, you know,
instantial the Westboro Baptist Church is the only legitimate religious organization,
it would be absurd, right, clearly, no one would go
to very few people, would you know. And again, right,
it's just.
Speaker 13: The FBI goes over to Liberty University, shuts it down
and puts the Westborough people in charge of it and
says this is a now legitimate Baptist Church in uh
in In in Lensburg.
Speaker 7: You know, maybe maybe it's a funny idea.
Speaker 8: Let's let's not give them ideas.
Speaker 7: Yeah, let's take that in the back pocket.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 7: That's that's sort of a situation of it might be
funny enough to be worth it, but anyway, in in
sort of a more more serious Uh.
Speaker 8: Note.
Speaker 7: One of the other things there's obviously been a result
of this conflict has been a massive exodus from the country.
You know, some of this is draft dodging, but another
part of it is women and children fleeing a war zone.
Even a relatively surgical war is still dangerous. Right, There's
nothing to be really done about that. And so what
do you see as the future for Ukraine? Like, assuming that,
if it were possible, we could freeze the conflict line,
you know, put some sort of DMZ, what becomes of
the nation, because in my mind, very regrettably, it seems
to be ruined, genuinely, just completely ruined.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 13: At the time Ukraine became independent in nineteen ninety one,
it was probably the most wealthy on a per capita
basis of all the former Soviet republics, if not the
it was pretty close to the top. It had something
around fifty million, maybe as slightly more than fifty million
people in it within its nineteen ninety one borders. That
fell off, like a lot of the former Soviet and
other socialist republics in Eastern Europe, fell rather markedly following
independence because a lot of people at that point they
saw greener pastors in the West and they left, and
so you already had some falling off from the Ukrainians.
So it was under fifty million. When Yadikovich became president.
He campaigned on you know, fifty million Ukrainians as one
of his campaign themes. If I understand the rumors correctly,
he personally was trying to contribute to that as much
as possible, as is not atypical for politicians in this
part of the world. But when this war started, okay,
let's keep in mind, you know, you know, Crime was
taken by the Russians, the Eastern Oblasts, so you probably
have right there several million people that were no longer
in part of Ukraine controlled by the Kiev regime, a
lot of people leaving. You have, if you listen to
people like Colonel Douglas McGregor, we probably have something like
one point eight million Ukrainian soldiers that have been killed
in this war, which is I mean, that's a substantial
chunk of a population. I'd be surprised if there's still
twenty million people left in the part of Ukraine that
they give regime controls. How many are in the Russian
controlled area, I don't really know. Probably you know, five
to seven millions something like that, I mean Ukraine. And
now it's apparently their birth rate. I mean, as you know,
you need like two point two to two point three
babies per woman to keep even a level of population,
much less grow. I think there's something like zero point
nine three or something like that. They are below one percent,
I mean one child per woman now in terms of
in terms of replacement. And by the way, just to digress,
I saw a debate between Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Davis and
General Ben Hodges recently. At Hodges says, well, they have
to keep fighting. There are two million Ukrainian men and
women that still can be put into the army and
fight this war. I said, what kind of maniac not
wants to send not only more men into this meat grinder,
but wants to send women into I mean you're trying
to kill off any demographic potential in this place. That's
certainly the way to do it. The Russians and I,
you know, and I've been very critical of this, uh
you know, I let me, let's cut to the chase.
The only way this war can end is in a
Russian victory. The Russians cannot lose this war because it
would be it would be fatal for them from their
secured point of view. For then, this is an existential war.
They must win this war no matter what happens, no
matter what the West throws at them, and they will one.
Speaker 8: Way or the other.
Speaker 13: The trouble is is they don't seem to want to
do it in a you know, you know, you look,
we saw how the Israelis decapitated his Bollah. They tried
to decapitate the UH, the the Iranian government. The Russians,
for whatever reasons, are not doing anything to try to
decapitate the Kiev regime. I mean, they basically have not
struck in the presidential administration, the SBU, which is the
Ukrainian KGB, the military intelligence, the Rada, which is department,
they haven't done any of that stuff. Instead, their policy
is one of killing as many Ukrainian soldiers as the
front as possible as a way to demilitarize Ukraine. And
I think they hope force the other side to cry uncle.
If they keep killing more Ukrainian soldiers in the front,
keep taking more territory, the other side will find the
cry uncle. Say fine, fine, will agree to your terms.
Speaker 8: I don't think that's going to happen.
Speaker 13: So you say, what's the future for Ukraine right now?
Its future is continued deppopulation by basically killing off all
their manpower. As Andre martianovk call said, well, you're going
to kill off ukraine sperm bank. Well that, you know,
even if they're not you know, as they're falsely accused
of doing, you know, bombing civilian areas, tell it to terrorizing.
Even if they're not doing that, they're still killing a
awful lot of Ukrainians who are in uniform. Okay, fine,
their military targets, this's just war. I understand that. But
they are depopulating Ukraine's certainly on the male side, almost
basically very close to what happened to all the European
countries in World War One, where you look at the
democratic chart and you see that big notch on the
male side where all those men died.
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Speaker 13: During World War One and d you see a second
notch further down where all the children where those men
would have fathered didn't get born. Well, that's what's happening
to Ukraine now, and that is the Russian policy I
think is based on very bad political calculus of thinking
that they if they inflict enough pain on Ukraine, their
Western sponsors will finally give up. And I don't think
they will. And in fact, as we see from Europe
every day, they're actually preparing for war with Russia. And
I think, unfortunately, as long as this war keeps going,
that war becomes more and more likely.
Speaker 7: Certainly, the look as someone who sort of has you know,
my personal background and you know, political realism, the Italian
elite theorists, I understand that, Look, we live in a
fallen world. Human politics is a nasty and dangerous game.
I understand that. But there is something I do find
personally morally affronting about this war. It bothers me a
on that on a spiritual level almost And the case
of you know, Arina Zarutzka is sort of the perfect
exemplification of that. That this is someone whose country has
been entirely destroyed to you know, feed this sort of godless,
satanic globalist empire. This woman has been displaced across the world,
done what she's supposed to do, right, gotten a job,
you know, started some semblance of a life, and that empire,
which is nominally American, is so uninterested in running the
country named America in any sort of way that this
woman and is hacked to death by someone who should
have been executed decades ago. And to me and you
hear this often in we could broadly call it kind
of non interventionist circles, but you know, we'll take this
slur on is the idea that either the American Empire
survives or the American nation survives, you can only pick one.
And to me, the fact that our leaders are choosing
the empire over the nation, casting themselves as humanitarians while
pushing an entire country which admittedly, I'll be honest, I
don't care about Ukraine deeply. It's not a country that
I have any sort of attachment to. But they are
human beings, you know, it is a is a Christian
European nominal country. And to see that being fed into
a meat grinder, and for what the country will they
will there's no possible way that they will maintain the
borders that you know we're pre existing before this war
is pointless. And sure, you know it may by you
know a certain number of mc mansions and you know
a few counties in northern Virginia that might be helpful
for someone. But to me, that's the part that I
just find just completely unconscionable.
Speaker 13: It is. You know, I referred to my colleague at
the State Department and said, the Germans, the Polls, and
Russians all deserve each other. I'm sure you've heard some
people look back at World War Two and said, you know,
what we should have done is just let the Soviets
and the Nazis fight each other and kill kill, kill
off as money Germans and Russians as we can, and
that would have been to our benefit, which is a
pretty horrible thought when you think about it. I mean,
you look at the demographic catastrophe that Europe suffered in
World War One, and then you want to give it
another round in World War Two, which is what happened.
I mean, you know, in retrospect that may have out
turned out to be have been fatal for European Christian civilization,
not only spiritually but even demographically the way things are going,
and I can't help with thee that are some people
that are looking at this, you know, as they say,
fight to the last Ukrainian and kill as many Russians
as possible. Hey, look, even if ten Ukrainians are dying,
to kill every one Russian, even if it's not lopsided,
at least we're killing that one Russian. So let's keep
this going as long as possible. More Ukrainians and Russians
that die, the better it is for us. I think
there are people who think that way. I think that's
the people who have that point of view.
Speaker 8: And then why do they do it?
Speaker 13: Well, what you said earlier, maintain the American global empire
at all costs. And you know, as I said, this
war is certainly existential for Russia on a national security
point of view, because they have a very sober idea
of the national security. They're on borders to start with,
they're near abroad, their immediate region, next after that, then
European and Eurasian affairs, and then finally global affairs. The
United States has the exact pass Awkwards way of looking
at the world, where the last thing on our agenda
is our own national security and our own res agion.
But rather we look at our vital national security interests
in the South China Sea or in the Middle East
or in Eastern Europe, places have nothing to do with
the United States. Ignore the welfare, the prosperity, the security
of the American people, both domestically and well, one thing
I'll get credit for it to the Trump at least
he seems to have tightened up the border situation, which
is something you know, very very important. So let's not
to neglect that. But historically that's been one of the
least concerns of the American national security perspective, which you know,
is far more concerned about the borders and the Balkans
or in the Middle East than they are concerned about
the American borders. So I think you're absolutely right on
that point, and I think that ultimately boils down to
that pathology, you know, back to what I was referring
to earlier about the American ruly ethos, that they've got
this very ideological way of looking at the world, where
America is kind of like what the Soviet Union was
for the Bolsheviks, platform for global domination. It's a base
from which to spread their blind you know, anti human,
anti Christian ideology over the entire world, and the American
people are just sort of the the drones who are
supposed to.
Speaker 8: Pay for it.
Speaker 13: That's great, that's all they see us as we're we're
just cogs in a machine.
Speaker 7: Well, and I think as well, that sort of crusade
anti fascism. The Career of Concept by Godfreed goes into
this ye where he describes the genesis of the American Empire.
It's really.
Speaker 8: It's funny.
Speaker 7: I think I stole this from Shames Lindsay of all
people who really doesn't like me, which I consider sort
of a badge of honor. But he spoke about how
the you know, the French are kind enough to number
their republics, and so you understand that, you know, it's
the same thing, but there's a major change. We've sort
of had the same thing in America, right there's multiple
different nations sort of stacked on top of each other,
and you know, the current instantiation is very much the
house that FDR built. If nothing else, I consider myself
to be an arch FDR hater forever. And one of
the things that you know, you see in that, and
Godfree points this out, is that he created this sort
of ideological crusade against fascism that was the big people
and so you see this in American media, you know,
from the Cold War covering Russia. It's like, well, have
Ivan Drago and it's like, well, let's be honest. The
six foot six, you know, blonde, you know, blue eyed
super soldier. Is that a particularly you know, is that
a particularly Russian figure or is it you know, the
peaked hat and it's basically, you know, the fascists all
over again, but we put a Russian flag behind them.
And I think that's part of where you see the
kind of you know, goofy painting of everyone as Hitler,
you know, he's sort of the Satan and are horrible,
godless civic religion. Yeah, but additionally, that idea of this
eternal crusade, like wherever this evil is, we need to
go fight it, no matter how far, or you know,
unrelated to you know, America as a nation state. Yeah,
I mean, it's so clearly pointless, and I'm glad, well
that pointless for us, I guess. But I'm glad you
brought up that that term ideology because I think that
that's sort of one of the interesting things that I
noticed when people talk about Russia is that I fundamentally
view Putin as a post ideological figure. To me, there's
there's no and it sounds dumb to say it, but
there's no Pootlerism.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 7: They're like, you couldn't you can't even come up with
a term for it. And I think that you know, really,
the twentieth century was the century of ideology, and it
was the most bloody century in human history. And so
to me, it just seems that this is an entirely
destructive urge to have this sort of totalizing system that
will save the world, so to speak. Hopefully we shed
it before it completely ruins the country. But I'm not
exactly optimistic about that.
Speaker 13: No, I think I think you put your finger on it.
And this is something I have written about quite a book,
and it's in my book, is that you know a
lot of Americans, especially conservatives, so you ask them what
America is, they give you all this proposition nation crap
and a ex experiment or whatever it is, and and
they've lost the notion that we're a country and not
just a civic state but an ethnic state. I mean,
why are we speaking English? This country was founded by Englishmen? Okay,
my askedstors were not English, unless you know some member
of the Varangian Guard got a little frisky a thousand
years ago in the palt I.
Speaker 7: Mean, who knows Tennyson? I think it was it Tennyson
or was it another one of the poets that fought
in one of your wars in Greece?
Speaker 8: Yeah? Oh yeah, well no Byron, Lord Byron Byron, yeah yeah.
Speaker 7: And if anyone was leaving a genetic legacy in Greece,
it would have been Byron.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 13: Well, remember we had English refugees from Hastings down there
a thousand years ago serving the Imperial Guards.
Speaker 8: So one never knows.
Speaker 13: Du one. I've been taken a DNA test. But you know, again,
one of the things I've tried to focus on, especially
if somebody not of English Saxon origin, is the ethnic
factor in American identity. Is that because if you ask
America's oh well, my constitution, my democrat, No, that's not
what makes America America. Those are epi phenomena of an
ethnic state. Those are English folk ways, if you will.
And you know, one of the things I'd like to
point out is three things, three phenomena, three ethnic phenomena
and three constitutional phenomena. One is the English Civil War
has been fought three times, once in England in the
sixteen forties, once at the time of the American Revolution,
which was really our first civil war. Here everybody keeps
referring to our second civil war. Actually no, this would
be our third, because our first one was in the
seventeen seventies and eighties, and of course then the other
of the late unpleasantness in the eighteen sixties, we had
we've had three constitutions in this country under the guise
of one document on not counting the Articles of Confederation.
From you know, seventeen eighty nine to eighteen sixty five
we had what was supposed to be a confederal republic,
and then roughly for one hundred years after that, we
had what you might call a federal democracy. And then
I would I might even go beyond FDR. I would
say that in the post World War II period, that
federal democracy degenerated into a consolidated unitarian state run by
corporate interests and ethnic interests and international.
Speaker 8: Aspirations.
Speaker 13: It is not even a federal democracy anymore. And you know,
it as much of a fiction as democracy was under
the Soviet Constitution. Let's not kid ourselves, except instead of
having one party that rules everything. We have quote two
parties that are conclusion with one another, keep everybody else out.
And that's where we are right now. And and and
the thing is is and it gets back to what
you say, if America is to survive, I don't mean
the American Republic that's gone. The American Republic, the American
constitutional pub is gone. The question is will the American
ethnos survive? Will the American people?
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confidential conversation. You can trust white Christian English speaking people
as the core ethnos that makes the United States and
the United States still survive. I mean, you know, the
Russians like to talk about, oh, Russia, we have we
have one hundred diition, different nationalities, blah blah blah blah,
which is true. But what makes in Russia is the
fact that there's an Orthodox Russian speaking core, which is
the nucleus of the state. In the same way that
you know, French speaking people are the nucleus of France,
not Breton's, not Basques, not Corsicans, not Alsatian French speaking people.
Speaker 13: So you know, we've lost sight of that. If you
ask your typical American who you are, as I said,
he'll talk about constitution, democracy. He won't say, well, because
I'm ethnic an American. I'm an American. I'm nothing else
but an American.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 13: Now some of them might say, well, because I'm white,
they'll look at it just crude racial terms. But you know,
white race is not an ethnos. I mean, it takes
a language, religion, values, I mean, all those things are
a common descent, obviously, but all those other factors are
what make a nation a nation. Americans have almost completely
lost sight of that, and that's why I don't think
the future bodes well for us. I mean, I'm actually,
in some ways more optimistic about Europe than I am
about America, because at least in Italy, there are Italians
who know they're Italian, They're Germans who know they're Germans,
French who know they're French. Most Americans have no idea
who the hell we are.
Speaker 7: Well, And that exact point is really why I spend
so much time attacking who the people who Charles Haywood
has termed the Catamite right, which is a rude term,
but want I'll continue to use is exactly that. It's like,
is America an idea that can be exported in any context?
Are you know the Liberians who have our constitution? The
exact same as we are, or is it a home
for a people? Is America a place for a group
called Americans? And I'm glad you brought up the distinction
between Ethnos and race, because there is a difference. And
look in certain situations, you know, when you're applying to
college and they say, you know, whitey need not apply,
well that becomes a very relevant factor. And I think that,
you know, regardless of your moral opinions on it, I'm
not necessarily super hot on it. White identity politics are
coming to America one way or another, given current realities.
But even in Ethnos and I talk to a lot
of Brits. I like them quite a bit, and genetically
I am British. You know, my family's been here. You know,
it's somewhat inauspicious circumstances, but you know, since the you know,
the early seventeenth century and so, but even then, right,
there's a difference between A and I. You know, I've
talked to a number of them and it's like, well
we look similar, but we're different. Yeah, you know, and
we're probably closer to cousins than anything else where. You know,
there is an overlap there, but fundamentally there is a difference.
And the idea that you see parrotid from conservatives that
you know, the constitution is what matters. Demeastra blew this
out of the water, you know, hundreds of years ago
where he said, look like a constitution is a reflection
of a people at a given time. It has no
magical inherent powers. And so to me, really I view
my primary political enemies, at least in this context as
the sort of you know, intellectual children of you know,
the neo conservatives, the people who you know view there
the purpose of America is to export all the buzzwords freedom, democracy, Americanism. Right,
we can call it that over the entire world, while
letting the people who belong here, who have no other
place to go rot And so to me, that really
is the in my mind, that is the fight worth fighting.
But Jim, this has been a great interview. I really
enjoyed it. I appreciate your time. Do you want to conclude?
And then we can tell people where to find you.
Speaker 8: Sure.
Speaker 13: All I can say, Jay, is I find some small
degree of encouragement and hearing you talk like this, because
if you are aware of these things, hopefully there are
other young people who.
Speaker 8: Are aware of them. Look, I'm an old guy.
Speaker 13: You know my shelf life is going to expire in
the not too distant future, I suppose. And let's face it,
in some ways, the boomers are the worst when it
comes to having messed all this up, although frankly generations
they can't come after us or not anything to write
home about either. So because after all, we raised you guys.
So if you guys are screwed up, well.
Speaker 8: Too bad for you.
Speaker 13: But I'm hopeful, and I'm somewhat hopeful that as this
all comes unraveled one way or the other, that more
people will get their heads screwed on straight, hopefully young
men first, and at some point maybe the chicks will
follow after, as.
Speaker 8: Hopefully they tend to do. But one never knows.
Speaker 13: I mean. One of the upsetting things in this country
again gets back to demographics. It's just how low the
marriage rates are in all Western countries including the United States,
and the child bearing rates. We have this divergence in
politics where a lot of young men are moving to
the right, a lot of young women are moving to
the left. I mean, one of the worst things you
see in voting patterns is that.
Speaker 8: The higher the.
Speaker 13: Lower the marriage rate, the more women vote left, which
becomes then a kind of a irre irrevocable rolling tendency
in the way the direction society is going long and
the short of it is, we vote our way out
of this. And at this point, the future of America
in the future of the world are intimately bound up.
Just as the internal stability of the Soviet Union was
inextricably tied to the global communist movement, the future of
America as a country and Americans as anthnos is inextricably
tied to the future of the American Empire.
Speaker 8: Back to what you said.
Speaker 13: For America to survive, Americans to survive, the empire must die.
And the question is can it die peacefully the way
the Soviet Empire died? You know, can two miracles happen
during the same lifetime where some big, huge going concern
of an ideological nature happens to die in a relatively
peaceful way without a big bang, or does it happen
with a big bang? I mean, people talk, you know,
I think people have a sense of foreboding. A lot
of people have a sense of foreboting that something really
bad is in our future, whether it's another you know,
plandemic or whether it's some big financial collapse and you know,
we get plunged into like you know, not only a
great depression of two thousand and eight on steroids, or
maybe a global war. And that's always one of the
options for the kind of people we're talking about who
run things. But I can't escape the notion that some
huge dislocation of our lives is going to come about
in the not too distant future. I mean, I'm not
talking about twenty or forty years. I'm talking about five
years of the most I'm guessing, and at that point
all bets are off. We'll have to see what comes
out of that.
Speaker 7: So several things there. One there, You're very right about
the political divergence between men and women among my generation
gen Z. Effectively, the war between the sexes has devolved
to such a point where men and women have become
distinct political classes, like in the same way that you
can imagine, you know, like the workers in the bourgeoisie.
We've just split the human species down the middle, which is,
you know, just a lovely state of affairs. But one
of the things that I've noticed, and this has been true,
I even see this speaking to you know, millennials one
generation older than I am, that there's been sort of
a speciation where effectively, either you are getting married young
and having a lot of children, or you will never
have children, or maybe you know, you wait till you're forty,
you have a child who's a little bit scrambled, and
then you end up transing them. To be blunt about it,
that trend has continued a pace. Additionally, one of the
other things that has been kind of a and this
has been a more recent story, has been the disenchantment
of younger right wing voters with the Republican Party in particular,
which is really interesting. So you have you know, Donald
Trump saying affordability is a democrat oaks, which is not
the best branding, to put it mildly, But what you have,
and I count myself among this is a large group
of men who were doing everything correctly right, who got
you know, good grades in schools, wanted to do what
you were supposed to do, and at multiple points have
been pulled largely for their their race and their sex.
You need not apply. And so you know, I, especially
people younger than me, I see this where it is
you know, the straight a student captain of the football team,
you know, student body president, all Star, and he's going
to a third tier skate school because it's the only
thing he could get into. Now, obviously, look, college placement
is at the end of your life. But that is
a leading indicator of problems we see elsewhere. And so
what you've created is a group of young men we
effectively have very little to lose. There is not a
way for them even if they wanted to to index
with the system. So for instance, like I have a
job on the internet, this is what I do. Do
I do it because it's fun, Yes, do I also
do it because there weren't a lot of other prospects
one hundred percent. And there is an alternate world where
if I were twenty years older, I would have got
a corporate job and never said anything at all controversial.
And so to me, that destabilization where the things that
traditionally tie men into a culture and the ability to
pair off with a woman, to own property, to have
a stake in society is being taken away. At the
same time, you know, whether you want to call them
neocons or you know, other pejoratives are.
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Speaker 7: Losing their sort of losing their magic right, they no
longer have the institutional control they used to. Let's also
be honest. I mean, look at just the difference between
Bill and Irban Crystal. The second gen was nowhere near
as impressed and as the first, and so to me,
I completely agree. I think that the short term prospects
are very dim, But in my mind, the fact that
you have that that sort of civic religion of the
American Empire as regards Israel, as regards foreign wards is
very clearly falling apart. I mean, look like, obviously I'm
you know, no fan of you know, fuent Has in particular,
but the fact that a figure as radical as that
has become fairly successfully mainstreamed. If you're an neo Kon,
we'll put that in scare quotes. Things are not looking
good for you, and so to me, I do find
that to be sort of a slight note of encouragement.
I mean, look like, I'm not exactly an optimist by personality,
but I think that they're interesting things happening, And look like,
I'm sorry, I'll finally wrap this up. But part of
the big reason that I started using my face, this
was fully anonymous for a long time, is that I
saw a real chance at a resistance. I saw a
real chance at a dissident movement. It was going somewhere
that was serious. And the people that I have reaching
out to me behind you know, behind the scenes, or
I've met at different conferences and events, are serious, capable people.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 7: It's like, oh, you could be doing something else and
you're doing something dangerous to your social standing or your
job prospects to be here and look like they are
always early adopters of, you know, any idea, and the
first profit of whatever the rejection of the American Empire is.
We're sort of burnt at the stake.
Speaker 13: You know.
Speaker 7: They were the first out the gate, and many of
them got punished for it. Yeah, but as with any
other idea, it ramps up quickly, you know, it becomes
popularized to a point where you can't simply throw everyone
in jail or get everyone fired for their job if
it is a position shared by a large percentage of
the public. Anyway, Jim, I'm keeping you too long. It
was fascinating to no.
Speaker 13: No, could I just briefly comment on what you said though,
because of course you're right. I mean, obviously we do
have the split in what used to be the Mega
movement between let's say, you know, Tucker Carlson, Canda z
Owens and Nick Wentis on one side in the in
the Mega movement.
Speaker 8: Mark Levin or another Loomer and Ben Shapiro.
Speaker 13: You know, I I some people think, you know, with
Trump and now this is going to continue a JD
Events will serve two terms at all. I don't think
it's going to go that way. I think it's more
likely this is all the wheels are coming off this already,
and the Left is going.
Speaker 8: To come back. And you're right.
Speaker 13: You got more and more young men whose prospects in
the normal sense, getting married, having a family, having a
real job are not all that great, and they're starting
to wake up to their situation, which is very, very
socially dangerous, especially since there are no political or economic
outlets for that increased energy and awareness. You're looking at
some kind of an explosion in the future.
Speaker 8: They have to be aware of that. Our rulers have
to be aware of that. So what do they do
with it? One way is how do you dispose of
lots and lots of dangerous young men?
Speaker 7: You get the Russians of the Chinese to do it
for you.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you get a war. Yeah.
Speaker 13: And I think unfortunately that's the direction things are going.
And by the way, to get too conspiratorial. Like again,
I don't know what you think about this. I do
think the twenty twenty election was stolen, and the question
is why wasn't the twenty twenty four election is stolen oh, well,
because he was just so popular they couldn't know.
Speaker 8: He was allowed to win.
Speaker 13: And he was allowed to win because if we're gonna
have a war, we're not gonna have a war with
a bunch of Tranese foreigners and feminists to go fight
the war. We needed a bunch of dumb white Christian
men from the South and Midwest to sign up because
they're fun for America against the Kamis. You know where
we can mobilize people of your generation for patriotism, especially
with the right kind of false flag. And I look again,
I think that's I'm not saying it's coming, but that's
a distinct possibility.
Speaker 8: I think.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, look, I've certainly had the same thought. Thankfully,
the sort of stupidly named Operation Midnight Hammer seems to
have resulted in, you know, no no further action there.
But the first thing I the first thing on my
mind when you know, I saw the same social media
posts everyone else did, you know tracking the jets, was
I hope, hope there isn't a bomb in New York City.
R I hope there isn't you know, a nuke in Dallas.
Mm hm, look like I'm I don't know, if I
have the maximal nine to eleven conspiracy theory, you know,
with holograms and all that. But at the same time,
you know, you look at you know, the Gulf of Tonkin,
what may or may not have happened with the main
what seems to have likely happened with Pearl Harbor. These
are not good people, and they're more than more than
willing to, uh, you know, practice a little bit of
dishonesty to get what they want. Yeh One more thing
and I just wanted to mention this and we'll finally
wrap this up now that we are well and truly
over time. Is to your point about, you know, increasing
radicalization on the right, it's important to remember that the
exact same thing is happening on the political left. Yeah,
look at the you know, look at the you know,
Charlie Kirk murderer, look at the you know, the kid
who you know took a shot at Trump who to
give Tucker credit, he did some very very good reporting
on that, you know, digging into what this character actually was.
There is a hole, I mean basically like like there's
sleeper cells buried across the entire nation of mentally unwell
effectively lunatics, sexual degenerates who have been told for the
past ten years, you know that you need to, you know,
become part of that great anti fascist crusade and you know,
pick up a rifle. And so it's funny. I read
a piece from Wired on my show not too long ago,
talking about in glowing terms of course, the you know,
the armed transgender movement, and in it, they're sort of
showing their hand talking about like, yeah, we really expect
there to be years of lead. It's like, oh, okay, well,
I guess you can just say that as long as
they're draped in a rainbow flag and it's it's completely
all right. But yeah, I mean I think that. And
you can even see this in the reaction to Ice
right where you have, you know, twelve twelve guys in
an L shaped ambush outside an ICE facility, Like, okay,
well that required a certain degree of preparation and support.
And so to me, the prospect of increased political violence
is almost it's almost a sharety, you know.
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, but Jim, Yeah, if we do have a
third civil war, it's not going to be boys and
blue and gray and neat lions shooting at each other.
It's going to be more like Bosnia or Rwanda or
something like that.
Speaker 7: And again for what well, Jim, we're well and truly
over time, this was a ton of fun. I'll have
to have you back on. You mentioned your book, but
where can people buy it?
Speaker 13: If they want to do something, they can get it
at on Imason or Barnes and Noble, any of those sites,
or at Lulu dot com. There's where the printer is.
And you know any of those is fine. And they've
got my little picture here on the back with Pat
Buchanan and Ron Paul, so you know.
Speaker 7: You got your bona fides. Well again, this was a
ton of fun, yeh. As far as my stuff, the
Jay Burdon Show, Apple, Spotify YouTube. If you want to
support the show, because this is what I do, you
can throw me a few bucks on Patreon, gum Road
or substack. You get the episodes early with no ads. Again, Jim,
it was great talking to you.
Speaker 8: Thank you. Yep.
Speaker 7: Everyone at home, keep your head up. I can't last forever.
Speaker 8: Good night.
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