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True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:37.359 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 32 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:50.239 Good evening, This is your host, Dan Zupanski for the 33 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.359 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime 34 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:58.480 History and the authors that have written about them. A 35 00:01:58.519 --> 00:02:01.599 True crime Story and the Bird The Forensic Science The 36 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.040 Killing of Little Shepherds with Douglas Starr was going to 37 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.319 be my guest this evening and hopefully he will. I 38 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:10.719 gave him a reminder of our program this evening and 39 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:14.719 he had it penciled in anyway, It's the story, true 40 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:18.840 crime story and the birth of forensic Science with Douglas Starr. 41 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:24.479 Let's hook up with him right now. Good evening, Douglas, Hi, Dan, 42 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:28.319 how are you good? How are you doing good. Thank 43 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.000 you very much for agreeing to this interview. Let me 44 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:32.960 just do an intro and then we'll get into doing 45 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:35.960 some questions, having some questions for you about this fine book. 46 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:41.039 In your book, you eloquently juxtaposed the crimes of French 47 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:44.719 serial killer Joseph Vacker and the achievements of famed criminologist 48 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:50.080 doctor Alexander Lacange. During Francis Bellapack from eighteen ninety four 49 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:52.919 to eighteen ninety seven. Vacker is thought to have raped, 50 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.080 killed and mutilated at least twenty five people, though he 51 00:02:56.120 --> 00:03:01.479 would confess to only eleven murders. La Camsee, who headed 52 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.039 the Department of Legal Medicine at the University in Lyons, 53 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:08.360 was a pioneer in crime scene analysis, body decomposition and 54 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:13.120 early profiling, and investigating and investigating suspicious deaths, all in 55 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:16.680 an era when rural autopsies were often performed on the 56 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:22.240 victim's dinner table. Lecage contributions to the burgeoning field of 57 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.960 forensic science, as well as the persistence of investigating magistrate 58 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:30.639 he tent for Quet, who connected crimes while crisscrossing the 59 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:35.400 French countryside, eventually brought Vacker to justice. Vacker claimed insanity, 60 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:39.240 which then, as now was a vexed legal issue, and 61 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:44.840 Lecange proved the systematic nature of the crimes. Star, who 62 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.159 is co director of Boston's University Center for Science and 63 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:52.960 Medical Journalism, creates tension worthy of a thriller. In Lecange, 64 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.919 he portrays a man determined to understand the how behind 65 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:59.879 some of humanity's most depraved and perhaps take us once 66 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:04.039 closer to the why the killing of little shepherds. With 67 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:07.919 my special guest Douglas Starr, thank you very much for 68 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:09.560 agreeing to this interview and welcome. 69 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:10.840 To the program. Oh it's good to be here. 70 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:15.479 And you can probably go back and correct me on 71 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:16.920 the butchering of those French. 72 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:20.480 It's not hard, it's not easy. Rather so the bad 73 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:21.759 guy was just a vashe. 74 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:23.519 Okay, there you go. 75 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:27.759 The hero of the book is Alexandra, Alexandra la Caasanya. 76 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:31.519 See it's tough for me too, Alexandra la Caasanya like Lasagna, 77 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:35.199 but la Casano okay. And the magistrate was Emil four K. 78 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:40.360 A meal okay, a meal for k yeah, four K okay, 79 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:45.040 got it. I'll do a bit better and hopefully it's 80 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:50.680 a learning process. Absolutely absolutely now to start for our 81 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:54.240 for our listeners, A very important and fascinating part of 82 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:57.480 your book is the evolution in the late nineteenth century 83 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:02.879 of the various prevailing theories and techniques used to identify 84 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:08.759 and classify criminals. It's amazing actually, and especially killers speculating 85 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:13.519 on the mindset and their methods of operation. So take 86 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:17.000 us back to France at that time. Set the stage 87 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:19.639 and tell us what was going on at that time 88 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:23.600 with these theories and techniques and identifying and classifying criminals. 89 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:26.720 Take us back. Yeah, this is a really interesting time. 90 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:28.439 And one of the things that grabbed me when I 91 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:31.000 tripped over this case was how much like our own 92 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.279 time it was. So it was the turn of the 93 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.759 century and it was the Gilded Age in America, the 94 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.959 Victorian England, the Victorian era in England, and in France 95 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:42.160 they call it the belly poc the beautiful era. And 96 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:47.639 science was flowering, the arts were flourishing. People seemed to prosperous. 97 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.680 But under it all there was this tension, this unease 98 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:55.199 about the lower classes. There was great inequality. There was 99 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:59.959 an international terrorist movement called anarchism afoot crime was grown. 100 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.439 They had a tabloid press just like we have cable 101 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:07.199 and other TV that was constantly amping people up. So 102 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:10.040 it was a lot like our own. And one of 103 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.879 the things people were very concerned about was this idea 104 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.800 of crime and not just individuals but the criminal class. 105 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:19.399 So you're right, one of the things that really concerned 106 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:23.120 people was finding out why did people behave this way? 107 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:29.079 Now, tell us a little bit about the You also 108 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:34.000 go into the public executions and sort of the mood 109 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:37.360 of the day. You said they had a tabloid press, 110 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.959 but obviously a tabloid press comes with people have an 111 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:44.839 appetite for the tabloid press, and obviously there is enough crime, 112 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.920 or at least in people's minds, there's enough narrow do 113 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:53.000 wells and enough Like you say that, people were alarmed 114 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:54.759 at that time at a certain amount of crime. So 115 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:58.519 tell us what the prevailing mood was at that time. 116 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.560 You share about x acutions, like I mentioned. 117 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.560 Yeah, you know, this is in because what we're doing 118 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:05.920 is setting the scene and then we'll get to the 119 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:08.680 details of the crime and the scientists. But the mood 120 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:13.639 was very unsettled. Yes, there were public executions. They used 121 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:15.959 the guillotine, you know, they felt it was the most 122 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.879 humane thing to do In America, they used hanging, which 123 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.680 could take ten minutes to kill someone. And we're beginning 124 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.279 to experiment with this new invention called the electric chair. 125 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:28.199 That doctor Lauson actually wrote essays about it. He was intrigued, 126 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.959 but he still thought it was kind of primitive. People 127 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.720 kind of believed in capital's punishment, but the anti capital 128 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:39.839 punishment movement was growing. They were having doubts. There was 129 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:41.920 the school of thought that what if the person who 130 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.199 credited the crime was insane, aren't we actually killing somebody 131 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:49.160 who doesn't know any better. So again, almost as in 132 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:54.680 every other area of society, the feeling was unsettled. Right. 133 00:07:55.040 --> 00:08:00.360 You also talk about this an intellectual let that time, 134 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:05.920 Caesar Lombroso, and he had his theories which were totally 135 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:11.639 diametrically opposed to kind of ideas that Desange would have, 136 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:14.560 and so tell us about their differences of it. 137 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:17.079 Very interesting because you know, these were also the same 138 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:20.399 people that developed forensic science, and in addition to using 139 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:23.519 evidence to say what happened, they wanted to find out 140 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:27.839 why it happened. Now, Darwin was still alive, Freud was alive, 141 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.360 Pasteur was alive, So we had all this science in 142 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:32.919 the air all these theories and Sesel Lombroso was a 143 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:36.440 psychiatrist who worked in the Italian prisons and psychiatric institutes, 144 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:38.879 and he came to believe over time that there is 145 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:41.399 such a thing as a born criminal, that due to 146 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:44.679 a glitch and evolution, some people still carried the seed 147 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:48.320 of the primitive entity, and that they couldn't help themselves 148 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.200 but commit crime. And he actually thought he identified the 149 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:54.159 part in the brain that was different in these people, 150 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:56.759 because it was common to dissect the brains of executed 151 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:59.320 criminals back then, and then it could be found in 152 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:02.240 the facial features and there if somebody had a unibrow 153 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:04.759 or ears that stuck out, or a big lantern jaw, 154 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:08.000 this was a criminal type. And he would actually testify 155 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:11.240 at trials as to who might be guilty just based 156 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:12.159 on their physiognomy. 157 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:14.120 Incredible. 158 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:16.840 Yeah, Now, Laka Sonya, as you know, had the opposite feeling. 159 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:19.000 He thought it was based on the person's circumstances and 160 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:21.320 the way they were brought up. And this was the 161 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:23.879 beginning of the nature nurture debate that, as you know, 162 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:25.039 persists to this day. 163 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:32.320 Right now, you take us back to as well to 164 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:39.240 a little bit of the history of lakasign and Lackasigna, 165 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.240 and I hope he's not listening. 166 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:46.360 So anyway, he does have this ender who I found. 167 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:50.039 We'll talk about that later. Oh very speak English. 168 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:54.399 Oh good, good. So anyway, what's he tell us a 169 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.279 little bit more about his character, because there's other things 170 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.399 that but came with it that he had a lot 171 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:06.080 of theories and philosophies that were quite unique for the time. 172 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:07.919 Tell us a little bit more about the character of 173 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:08.399 this man. 174 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:11.879 Yeah, he was a renaissance man. I mean, think about 175 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.279 what he looked like. He was a big guy, you know, 176 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:18.919 a big barrel chested, you know, bergomeister type guy with 177 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.240 a huge handlebar mustache. I almost couldn't find a picture 178 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.039 of him not smiling, always surrounded by colleagues, surrounded by family. 179 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:29.799 He represented everything that was good in that era to 180 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.159 those people. He was a doctor. He was broadly educated. 181 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:37.080 He understood poetry, literature, and art. He had dozens and 182 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.480 dozens of graduate students, and he developed some very interesting theories. 183 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:45.399 And basically he was the center of a whole international 184 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:49.480 group of scientists who were inventing the science of forensics. 185 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.480 And they realized that witnesses don't always tell the truth, 186 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:55.679 but that the evidence doesn't lie. So he and this 187 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:57.840 other group of people who were kind of an international 188 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:02.240 brain trust bit by started looking at different pieces of 189 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:05.159 evidence and using science to sort of reel back what 190 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:10.399 happened during the crime scene. Now, what specifically you've alluded 191 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:13.120 to it, but what specific things that we could recognize 192 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:16.480 today that people watching CSI for the first time five 193 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:20.200 or ten years probably ten years ago now would would think, well, jeez, 194 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.519 with blood spatter analysis, you know, tell us a little 195 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:25.519 of some of the stuff that they were doing over 196 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:28.759 one hundred years ago. It's quite amazing because everything except 197 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:33.960 for fingerprinting and DNA, they basically had it nailed. So 198 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.600 you're right, they had a whole panoply of things. So 199 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:41.919 body position on death rigor mortis, how long the person 200 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.440 had been dead. They learned to identify insect populations on 201 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.399 the body because they knew that once somebody died, their 202 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:52.519 body became the host of successive ways of insect ecosystems. 203 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:57.080 Blood spatter analysis. La Casanya personally invented the science of 204 00:11:57.120 --> 00:11:59.960 ballistics in which he matched a bullet to a guy, 205 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:06.120 you know, wound matching almost everything that we could think 206 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:08.080 of as something they figured out like one hundred and 207 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:11.240 twenty years ago. They were astonishing. And to think, by 208 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:14.759 the way, this was an era before refrigeration, so they 209 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:18.639 had to work fast. They worked without gloves, without masks. 210 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.559 And the other big thing he did was standardized autopsies. 211 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:24.399 So even the rural doctors you mentioned, who were operating 212 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:26.720 on a kitchen table knew to do the right thing. 213 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:31.600 It's amazing also too. What what I found was fascinating 214 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:35.759 as well, is that, along with the prosecutor for Quette, 215 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:43.720 they you know, Lacasagna basically was a pioneer in geographical 216 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:46.000 profiling as well, because otherwise they never would have had 217 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:49.200 a link. They had the rata base, so they were 218 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.320 the innovators of that as well. 219 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:54.440 Yeah, and it's interesting, you know in these debates, you know, 220 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:57.919 every four years they had a massive international meeting of criminologists. 221 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:00.279 Of course, Elvis has been lost to history. It was 222 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.799 great to revive it. And every four years there would 223 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:06.919 be the same argument between Lombroso and Lakasanya, and Lombrosa 224 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:11.159 would bring skulls and skeletons and brains to these exhibits. 225 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:14.639 They didn't let women in It was so horrifying. Lakasanya 226 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:18.240 would bring charts and he did charts of if crop failures, 227 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.159 economic av analysis, family structured because he was sure that 228 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.120 it had to do with how the person was brought up. 229 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.679 And this went on for years and years and years. 230 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:30.600 Wow, that's an incredible debate. 231 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:33.120 Isn't it. Yeah, I mean we're still talking about that. 232 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:36.840 Well, I think it comes up. I think that every 233 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:39.440 few years you hear something about that they found some 234 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.120 location in the brain that seems to be a predisposition. 235 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.519 But I've never found anything. I've never heard anything really 236 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:48.440 conclusive about that, So you you don't see the sort 237 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.519 of the proliferation of that idea, Thank god no. As 238 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:56.799 you know, lately, neuroscientists have begun doing MRI scans of 239 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:59.440 the brains of psychotic criminals and they are finding some 240 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:02.720 very interesting patterns that the part of the brain that 241 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.879 sort of acts like a grownup is not regulating the 242 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:07.960 impulsive part of the brain as well as it should, 243 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:12.240 and it's possible that a component of this behavior may 244 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.080 be inborn. And you'll notice I emphasize the word component 245 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:16.919 because I think it still has a lot. 246 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:18.919 To do with upbringing. The thing that I want to 247 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:24.120 emphasize though, is you read the book, you know the issues. 248 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.559 Look how lively the debate was back then. Look how 249 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:29.559 they really tried to get to the bottom of it. 250 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:32.159 And it doesn't seem to me like society now is 251 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:34.960 trying to get to the bottom of it. No. 252 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.000 Actually, I can see an actual aversion to looking at 253 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:41.840 some of this. I don't see an increased fascination. I 254 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:45.799 see an increased fascination in the fictionalization of a lot 255 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:52.000 of these things, even criminal profiling, which has its obvious appeal. 256 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.440 But at the same time, I don't see an increase 257 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.519 in people having a thirst for this. But then again, 258 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:03.279 your book, I mean, you know, this book really does 259 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:08.080 draw people in that probably would be interested because they've 260 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:11.159 been watching CSI for ten years, and almost right from 261 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.320 the beginning. When you read of all the things that 262 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:15.440 were doing one hundred and twenty years ago, you're going, wow, 263 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:20.320 I really did think that was just recent. Yeah, you know, 264 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.360 you know, so it really must have been a golden age, 265 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.120 because it certainly didn't catch on everywhere. 266 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.480 No, I mean, the United States was several decades behind 267 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.399 these guys. But you know, you can't be first and 268 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.559 everything Britain was behind. It was really at the time, 269 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:40.879 scientists in France, Italy, Germany, Austria, to some degree Russia. 270 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.080 They were at the center of this brand new science. 271 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:46.240 You know what I found interesting too, is that you 272 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.519 talk about how everyone I guess I'm not sure if 273 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:53.360 I can remember that Lombroso referenced it as well, but 274 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:58.519 at least that Lakasagne did in terms of they all 275 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:04.679 loved and actually took very seriously Sherlock Holmes, the fictional story. 276 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.519 Yeah, wasn't that. I mean in the same way that 277 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.679 we like CSI. But so the Sherlock Holmes stories came 278 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.120 out in the height of Lakasanya's career, and he sees it. 279 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:16.720 He loved them so much so that he had a 280 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.399 graduate student write a thesis comparing the science to Sherlock 281 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:21.679 Holmes to the science of the day. And I was 282 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:23.759 lucky enough to find a thesis in one of my 283 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:26.600 trips to France and then find laka Asania's handwritten comments 284 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.919 all over it. So I had the impression of Lakasanya, 285 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:34.440 the real life forensic expert having a debate with Sherlock Holmes, 286 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:38.919 the fictional forensic expert. But the cool thing was, although 287 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.000 Lakasanya enjoyed the stories, he felt the science fell short. 288 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:43.960 You know, he felt Holmes was very quick. 289 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:46.240 Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight 290 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:48.440 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 291 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.000 slock games on Chumpa Casino dot com. I looked over 292 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:52.879 the person sitting next to me, and you know what 293 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:55.720 they were doing. They were also playing Rumba casino coincidence, 294 00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:58.120 I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chump 295 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:00.360 A Casino's home the hundreds of casino style games do 296 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.759 you can play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty 297 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.519 thousand feet. 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So 306 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:34.480 even though we enjoyed the stories, he didn't really take 307 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:35.640 them seriously. 308 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.799 Right, But at the same time that those stories were 309 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:43.720 written previous to those people being around at that time, 310 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.960 So really you can give them a little bit of 311 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:50.480 a break for having, you know, the time on their side. 312 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:53.000 We'll say, let me are in terms of I'm dan 313 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.200 with you on that one, because actually the stories came out. 314 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:58.759 The first one was in eighteen eighty seven, right when 315 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:03.119 these guys were and Sherlock Holmes actually talks about Lakasania's 316 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:07.599 colleague whose name was Bertil in Paris. So look, I'm 317 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.279 a Holmes fan too, but true is true. 318 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:11.880 We gotta sorry, Sherlock. 319 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:15.039 Well, you know, the thing is is that, like you say, 320 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:19.200 Lacasagne was doing groundbreaking work. I mean, you've got the 321 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:22.160 other current scholar at the time thinking he's on the 322 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:28.279 right trail here, and at the same time Lakazanne is 323 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:32.279 doing groundbreaking work that we can compare to you know, 324 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:34.559 one hundred and twenty years later, is still. 325 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.359 Very valid point. I think, you know, to me what 326 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:40.440 really struck me and looking at this and of course 327 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.279 you know, we enjoy the CSI thing. You know that 328 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:47.559 the CSI show is fiction. Nobody has that kind of 329 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:52.799 a laboratory. But it's exciting. It makes people terribly interested 330 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.680 in this, and it's a kind of morality tale. And 331 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.319 the lesson of CSI and the lesson of Sherlock Holmes 332 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:02.960 is cool. People with science on our side will prevail 333 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:06.319 over the forces of destruction and chaos. So that's the 334 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:09.079 lesson we take from these things. I'm happy and and 335 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:13.319 when I know if it is fiction, and it's greatly enjoyable. 336 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:15.119 Yes. 337 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:19.039 Now, at the same time that all of this is 338 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:25.000 going on, we have a person named Vachet. And but 339 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:31.759 let's go back to as much history on and that 340 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:33.759 you put in the book as well that you found 341 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:36.480 through your research, so we can build the character of 342 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.720 this extraordinary killer. 343 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.079 Okay, I missed a piece of what you said because 344 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:43.839 your line cut out, So can you can you repeat 345 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:45.920 a part of that question? Yes? 346 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:50.079 Sorry? What I what I asked was is that we 347 00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:52.480 would like to go back as far as you do 348 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.119 in the book and from your research as well, go 349 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.519 back and give us the character of Joseph Vasha, go 350 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:04.000 back and give us his background story, and then tell 351 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.000 us a little bit more about what he evolved into. 352 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:12.759 Yea. Interestingly enough, the way I learned about him was 353 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.039 I was able to find the original court records in 354 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:19.960 a countryside archive in rural France, cases and cases of 355 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.880 handwritten testimony and affidavits from people who knew him when 356 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.160 he was a kid, and then I later found the 357 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.759 psychiatric records in one of the asylums where he had been. 358 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:31.759 But if a modern psychologist were to look at him, 359 00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:37.000 they would say he is the classic psychopath. As a kid, 360 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.319 he grew up in a relatively normal peasant family and 361 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.480 sixteen siblings. It was a big family. He seemed kind 362 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.279 of normal until he was about ten, and then his 363 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:49.880 family claimed he was licked by a rabid dog and 364 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:53.240 they gave him some folk medicine, after which his personality 365 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:56.519 kind of turned. I think it was just a coincidence, 366 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:01.359 because rabies kills you, and anyway, and after that he 367 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:04.640 became really malicious. If the kids played a trick on him, 368 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.000 instead of laughing, he would try to kill them. He 369 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:11.359 broke the legs of animals on the farm. He also 370 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.599 had clerical tendencies, so as a teenager he actually went 371 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:16.680 to a monastery for a couple of years before he 372 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:21.440 was expelled for sexual misconduct, and he would walk miles 373 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:23.839 and miles to work off this rage that built up 374 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.200 within him. So we really see from his early years 375 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.880 sort of the early patterns of very dangerous young man. 376 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:37.720 Was there anything that's indicated that the influence of his 377 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:39.839 parents at that time on his behavior. 378 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:43.400 I don't think so. And the reason I say is 379 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.200 that some of the siblings came to the trial, and 380 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:48.880 also when the news of his capture broke and there 381 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.680 were articles all over the place, some of the siblings 382 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:55.880 wrote to the newspapers about how absolutely humiliated they were 383 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:58.200 and how they could never live this down and they 384 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:03.200 were just shattered. And in the witnesses testimony, the villagers 385 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:06.920 said that his parents were good, honorable, hardworking people. So 386 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.000 this guy just came out. I mean, you could believe 387 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:12.400 in a born criminal if you knew a guy like this. 388 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:14.680 He just showed up. 389 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:21.039 Right now. He gravitated or he joined the army, and 390 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.039 he was fairly successful in the military. Tell us a 391 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:24.759 little bit about that. 392 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:28.240 Yeah, he achieved the rank of sergeant. He seemed to 393 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:33.000 do well in a highly regulated, disciplined situation, as some 394 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.079 people do, but he was also known for his brutality. 395 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:40.720 He would really attack people who crossed him, and you know, 396 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.559 a couple of times he had been referred to the 397 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:45.960 doctor for some of this crazy behavior. Sometimes we have 398 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:49.400 these terrible outbursts of rage. It was in the military, 399 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.039 while walking through a park in eastern France. One day 400 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:56.640 he came upon a young woman named Louise Barant, struck 401 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.640