Speaker 1: This is Pet Life Radio.
Speaker 2: Let's talk pets.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Human Animal Connection Show, where we believe
we can communicate with all animals. Join us as we
explore the thirty three principles and healing methods of the
Human Animal Connection. As animal lovers, we know that you
share our commitment to making the world a kinder place
for all creatures. Together, let's embrace the transformative healing power
of the Human Animal Connection.
Speaker 2: Well, hello, everyone, welcome to the Human Animal Connection. I'm
your host, Jeanie Joseph and the founder of the Human
Animal Connection, and I am so delighted to speak to
Kate Titus and she is the founder and director of
a Loyal Companion which helps dogs that have mobility issues
or maybe senior in age, are having different physical challenges
all kinds of things, from swimming to mobility exercises to
training the human how to deal with a dog who's
going through these things. So today we're going to really
focus on some of the emotions that people might be
experiencing if they're dealing with a dog that has special
needs or getting to the you know that age in
life where it's things aren't working the way they used
to work. And all the emotions that humans go through
as we experienced the So Kate, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. I've been looking forward to to
talking to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know you've been wonderful. You've helped us with
some wheelchairs with some of our students, our high school
students that had paralyzed dogs, and we got them wheelchairs
and got them moving again. It was so much fun
because I was so before I had seen the process,
I was concerned, how is a dog going to learn
how to go from being paralyzed to having wheels, you know,
in this case was real rear wheels behind them, and
I was like so worried about what kind of training
do we need? We put the wheels on and the
dog went boom, just rolling around the room just you know,
I mean, it was a little bit of adjustment that
literally within seconds. It's soiting to see a dog that
has not had that kind of motion suddenly be mobile again.
So thank you for the good work that you're doing.
And I know you've done a tremendous amount of research
and understanding, and I know even though you're in Tucson, Arizona,
you also work with people worldwide, right people can work
with you online.
Speaker 3: Great, okay, we do. We do quite a few video consults.
Speaker 2: Yeah, excellent. Okay, Well, I know that one of the
challenges that you see is not just on the dog side,
but the human side. Emotionally, tell us a little bit
what you've seen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that that scenario that you just explained about
putting the dog in the cart, there is a blossoming
of joy that happens, right, So the opposite of that
has happened at some point where you know, you realize
your dog is paralyzed, You realize your dog is not
as able as they used to be a lot of
different emotions start to get to pop up and to
uh become your constant companion, They become your shadow. And
and so what we what we see and what we
try to do is we try to get folks to
live in the right now. That's where your dogs are,
That's where we need to stay. Let's not make this
any more challenging than it needs to be for anybody involved.
So what we'd like you to do is, let's work
with the dog that's in front of you today, because
that is going to be a different dog tomorrow. That
could be a different dog tonight. But who's in front
of you? How are they?
Speaker 2: You know, how are they.
Speaker 3: Feeling right now? Are they feeling like they want to
go for a walk and they can I shouldn't say
that too A lot have my dogs would make you know,
do they do they want to, you know, do an activity?
Do they want to do enrichment? Do they you know,
what are they up for? Or do they just want
to sit beside you and snuggle and be petted and
and share share that connection with you. So we spend
a lot of time talking to folks about what they're
what they're feeling, and the challenges that they're having at home,
because that's you know, that's really where we fill the
gal we were We're not veterinarians, we're not surgeons. We're
there to help you take those instructions from your veterinarian
and make them work at home. You know, your vet
can tell you what's wrong with the dog. They can
give you some ideas on maybe how to manage that
from a you know, from a medical or pharmaceutical standpoint,
but understanding that you may be undoing all of that.
Speaker 2: Just by the setup of your house.
Speaker 3: You know, you have I see, you have a rug
on the floor behind you, over top of wood or
lambin at whatever that happens to be. Depending on the
ability of your dog, that rug may be the only
space they feel comfortable walking on. So we talk about
those kind of things that really helped to ease as
much of the burden for the pet, which in turn
helps to ease the burden for the pet owner with
a pet parent. So we kind of try to look
for those for those instances and where we can really
provide some support.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it can be really challenging. And you have
a memory of your dog maybe three four years ago,
maybe even a year ago, where you could go and
go for that little trot or that walk or play
or chase up all or whatever the things that you
were used to doing, and all of a sudden it's gone.
And the pain of that, the sadness of that. And
sometimes I think maybe people get guilty, I think feeling
guilty like am I doing enough? Am I doing too much?
Am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the
rock thing?
Speaker 4: Ish?
Speaker 3: Matt Bargers are quite a knot you can get yourself
tied up into and yeah, I'm just you know, and
you have on top of that all of the everyday
care that you're providing, so you know, you're probably a
little tired. Depending on the size of your dog, you
may have your own aches and pains that are a
direct result of helping your dog. And you've got you know,
there's a port a certain part of you, of your
headspace and your mind space that is now totally wrapped
up in your dogs that cannot be in anything else.
And I think you know you're just there are limits
all around you. You think there are limits all around
you to how much time and how much space you
have to give to your dog, but also give to
yourself because you know self care is is huge and
not not knowing what the tips and tricks like, you know,
finding having a backup person is one thing that I
recommend to everyone, whether that is your husband, your partner,
your neighbor, someone that at least can give you an
hour to go lie down and take a nap. You
know that you you can have a break, whether it's
mental or physical.
Speaker 2: Right right, very very important, And I want to talk
a little bit about pain because it's not always easy
to know if your dog is in pain. I mean,
if it's extreme pain, of course that you know. We
might know that, but we might not know the routine
every day arthritic pain or mobility joint pain. How do
you I know you're not a veterinarian, you can't diagnose,
but what do you how do you evaluate? Oh? I
think that this is pain and you should talk to
you about getting some you know, medication for this, or
how do you evaluate pain?
Speaker 3: I look at paint in a couple of different ways.
First and foremost, I look for clusters of signals. It's
not a single thing. So let's take panting for example.
Panting is a very common pain signal. However, if the
dog has just been for a walk, or it's just
gone outside in one hundred and ten degree heat to
go to the bathroom, panting is completely normal. However, if
that dog has been inside, it's seventy in your house,
haven't been doing anything, haven't been active, but they're panting.
They've got a little pull to the eyes, there's a
little squint. Perhaps they didn't want to get up and
meet you when you walked into the room. They may
be irritable to other dogs that are in the house,
you know. So there are pieces that you can put
together that say, okay, there have been some behavior changes,
there's some physical changes in the way there is interacting
with me, and that tells me that that there's probably
some pain, some uncontrolled pain, and that is that is
a big distinction, because we need to we need to
get pain under control as much as possible, not only
for you know, every day living or their activities of
daily living, their ADLs to be able to do those
like being able to transition from being on the floor
into a stand up to go get a drink of water,
or maybe it's being able to stand up to eat
big one posturing to pee and poop. You really underestimate
how challenging that can be. Those are both very complex postures.
Even being flexible enough to groom themselves or shake off
to get extra you know, debris or hair out of
the coat. And you know, understanding how pain plays a
role in that is essential. And I think the other
thing that that is commonly forgotten is that pain is emotional,
has emotional.
Speaker 2: Effects as well as physical effects, right right, Sometimes behaviors
that we don't quite understand there may be a pain component.
And so it's not just a matter of looking at
why is my dog doing this behavior that I don't like,
But what is my dog feeling emotionally and physically that
it could be pain could be a factor, and some
behavior that has cropped up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Especially if you have a dog that's not
normally cranky that becomes cranky. Yeah, that is usually a
pretty a pretty big pain indicator on that front. And
I think even just in their in their ad ls,
in their their everyday activities. One of my favorite examples is, Okay,
normally water is in the kitchen right right, or you
have your water bowl, or it's it's on a tiled surface,
which we have a lot of here in Arizona. You're
gonna that dog is going to go through a cost
benefit analysis. Is it worth it for me to get
up from lying down? That's going to be an effort.
Now I have to walk over there. Now I have
to think about how difficult it's going to be to
walk across that tile floor. Pain is a very big teacher.
So I remember the last time I fell on that
floor and it hurt. So am I thirsty enough to
Is my need for water enough to overcome the fear
of what could happen or has happened in the past?
Is it strong enough for me to overcome that fear,
go get the water, and then have to walk back
and repeat those saying in reverse those same activities. Is
that need great enough for that? So the pain element
of that, the history of pain, really plays a role
in how they choose to move their body and how
they choose on what surfaces to move in. How much?
Speaker 5: Wow?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot to really think about. And would
you say bigger dogs or smaller dogs? Are they about
equal in terms of the kinds of challenges they have
or do you see more challenges and small versus big group?
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think the real difference is
the ease with which a pet parent can reach them,
pick them up, and make it easier for them to
get place to place. As a person who's managed mobility
in an eighty five pound dog, a fifty pound dog,
and a nine pound dog, it's a whole lot easier
to pick up my little guys.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: I have a rat terrier Chihuahua mex Halfmoon who has
been in a cart for more than eight years. He
is twelve and a half now, and his front limbs
have gone through a lot, especially his shoulders, his elbows,
his wrists. He's done a lot of pulling in his time,
and a lot of pushing off to get himself to
slide across the floor. He's not really able to do
that as well as he was in a past, even
with rugs down. It is a real challenge. So you know,
he spends even more time in his cart now. And
because these only fifteen pounds, he can do that in
the house. I couldn't do that with you know, my
boxer Kolua or my Great Dane fox pound Harley. That
just wasn't an option to have that in the house.
So we had to use different pieces of equipment and
different strategies to get them from point A to point B.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Wow. Wow, that's just it's amazing. It's amazing.
It's hard for humans, it's hard for the animals. Wow.
So at what point do you feel like, Okay, this
is no I know you're not a veterinarian, but just
in your do people say to you, you know, in
terms of quality of life. I'm not sure anymore. I mean,
how do you have those conversations?
Speaker 3: Yeah? We I feel like we're in the quality of
life business. I mean, we're there to make their life
as great as it can be for as long as
they want to stick around. And I'm we try to
help mom and dad figure out if the dog is
still engaging with them. Are they active? And when I
say active, that could be mentally engaged, not necessarily physically engaged.
I try to take the mobility piece out of it.
And this was the promise that I made to Harley,
who was our basically our founding dog. Is that, buddy,
I'm going to keep you moving as long as you
want to be moving. But at the point where you're
done and you're tired, eaves need to tell me and
I will stop fighting for you. Yes, and and so
I depend a lot on the eyes. I depend a
lot on the level of engagement. I depend a lot
on what my gut tells me.
Speaker 2: Yes. So when you say the eyes, the eyes, you're
trying back your eyes, not the dog's eyes or do
you mean the dog's eyes on the dog's eyes? Okay,
So tell me what you see in the dog's eyes
when you see says yes, I'm I still want to
continue and know I don't what are you what are
you seeing?
Speaker 3: So I see a I'm really looking to see if
they're tired, you know. And there's a difference between I'm
tired and need to take a nap and I'm tired
of fighting, I'm tired of being here, and that that,
to me is I really believe that that's that's something
that the pet parent really has to be in charge of.
I will never tell a pet parent that it's time
to let their dog go, right, that is not my place.
And I feel like when I look into the eyes
of even of my own dogs, but even some other
dogs client dogs, you see, there's a lot of effort
to being alive. There's the wrinkle of the forehead, the
pull of the eyes. Then I can barely muster the
effort to be here, and that speaks volumes to me.
But I also want to know that the pain protocol
that is in place is appropriate, and I'll always recommend
that folks talk to their vet about that pain protocol
before they take any big steps right because in some
cases the pain protocols have other side effects that could
shorten life in terms of the effects on the organs.
And so it's not a simple decision of oh, there's pain,
take a pill, right, so correct it's a balancing act.
It's a balancing act of different factors. Okay, yeah, and
you really have to consider quality over quantity, because we
might be able to get, you know, help the dog
live longer, but if that dog is in pain that
whole time, have we really done them as service? And
I would argue no, we haven't.
Speaker 2: Yes, good point, good point. Well, we're going to take
a short little break and when we come back, I
want to hear some of the stories of some of
the dogs that you've worked with and how lives changed.
Would be back in just the moment.
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Speaker 1: Hey friends. If you like what you're hearing and want
to learn more, check out doctor Joseph's book The Human
Animal Connection, Deepening relationships with animals and ourselves or visit
the website The Humananimalconnection dot org to book an online consultation.
Thank you for loving animals.
Speaker 4: Back to the show, Let's Talk Pets on Petlife Radio
dot com.
Speaker 2: I'm back to the Human Animal Connection. I'm your host,
Genie Joseph from The Human Animal Connection, and I'm speaking
with Kate Titus. She's the founder and director of a
Loyal Companion, which helps animals that are dealing with mobility issues,
with age issues, with other situations that might make them
less mobile and less enjoying life. And she has all
kinds of solutions to help dogs that are in dealing
with that time and phase in their life and how
to get back into the best quality of life that's possible. Obviously,
I know you're not a magician. I know you can't
wave your wand and fix everything, but you can certainly
make improvements. So tell us some of the stories of
the dogs you've worked with that where you've really been
able to help. We'll go We'll start with one that's
a little bit closer to home.
Speaker 3: Here in Arizona. We in the Southwest, we have something
called valley fever, and valley fever is spreading across the
US but Tucson and Southern Arizona happens to be the epicenter.
So we had a dog come in from Pema Animal
Care Center, which is our shelter. Her name was Daisy.
She should have been about a forty pound Picnics. When
we saw her, they had to carry her in because
she was only able to really lift her head. She
had valley fever in almost every joint in her every
major joint in her body. She was really then. I
think she was maybe twenty eight pounds. She was about
twenty pounds underweight, and we worked with her for almost
a year. She went from basically being propped up in
a quad wheelchair, which is wheels in the front wheels
and the back support for the body, just to get
her into an upright position because you can imagine with
not being able to move and not having a whole
lot of padding, bed sores were a real concern for her,
so we got her up into that standing position. The
medication that was available through the shelter, thanks to Friends
of Pack, which is the nonprofit arm, they were able
to really get fighting against against the fungus. Valley fever
is the result of a fungus that's found in our
dirt out here. So over the course of that year
we did some We taught the foster home exercises and
range of motion. We did multiple swim sessions every week
we had. We have a dog pool here, so we
were swimming with her. A great part about that is
it gets her off of her body, It lets the body.
The body is suspended in the water, so there's no
pressure anywhere. We worked with her with her range of
motion in the water and the swimming started to build
some stamina. Pretty soon, the foster let us know that
she was really annoyed by the front wheels, so we
had her in a walking wheels cart. We were able
to take those front wheels off and put a different
different arms and different harness on, so she was taken
off in her front wheel cart doing great. About four
months later, five months later they let us know that, yeah,
she was getting pretty active. So we started to work
on balance and strengthening with her and her rear limbs,
and by about the nine month mark she was running
with a little drunken slor thing a little in naxia,
but she was fully ambulating on her own, and by
by month twelve she had become ornery enough that the
foster had to we had to find her another foster
home because this foster also had other medical fosters and
she was way too active for those fosters. So that
was that was pretty that was pretty amazing, And she
went to a fantastic home. And yeah, she's a she's
definitely a success story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, beautiful. Well from hopeless to full of hope. Yeah, yeah, beautiful, beautiful.
And I think one of my favorite types of dogs
to work with are dogs that have a disease called
degenerative myelopathy. Uh and it's a lot like als in humans.
So basically, slowly and.
Speaker 3: Over time, it's usually their backlimbs just start not functioning
the way they should. They start to knuckle on their paws,
they start to lose strength, and there is no there
are non medications, there's no cure for this disease. It's
really all about maintaining and supporting the best quality of
life that you can. And we've had we've had quite
a few of these dogs and they have to be
a personal favorite of mine. And we had we had
one Sir Dalton. He was actually a grand champion show
dog and he came to us with DM big boxer,
big mailboxer, and his mom decided that she was she
was a wound nurse so she could handle all of
the things on his feet, and decided she was just
gonna rent a cart for him. We do have a
rental program, and I thought, you know, we've got a
few more months with the cart daily walks. He went
through three sets of wheels, so we use foam wheels
and those take a lot to wear out. He ended
up living and thriving for another year and a half,
almost two years with the cart with exercise, and he
just did great. He did amazing. And we had Max,
who was a German shepherd with something very similar. He
also had DM, but we swam him every week, and
you know DM is supposed to be it's different for
every day, but you have anywhere from months to a
couple of years. We ended up swimming every Wednesday with
with this shepherd with Max, and he did great. You know,
he loved to be with the kids. We had him
in a product called toe ups which keeps him from knuckling,
would keep those feet flat on the ground, and he
really just thrived. His mom owned a dojo in town,
so he would go and visit the kids while they
were getting ready to do their their session their yeah,
their martial arts. So just you know, some amazing, some
amazing things we get to be a part of. And
it feels great being on the journey with not just
the dog, but with the mom and dad because they
need as much support as the dogs do, and I
think they get overlooked a lot because in our society,
you don't you know, you can be a caregiver to
your in laws or to your husband or your wife,
but that's expected, you know, that's what society is expect
the you know, the use of your energy. But say
you're doing the same thing for your dog, and you
get kind of a funny look. So there aren't a
lot of support groups and places where these people can
go and feel valued and understood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's really important because you know, of course
we believe dogs are family members and you know they
need the same understanding and privileges and rights and support
that that when you say, if you're caring for your
mom or whoever you're caring for you But it's like
you say, there isn't a lot of recognition that a
how much energy it takes and how much emotional balance.
It takes, you know, to be a balanced system for
another being. And and how do you help people see?
You know? Okay, So maybe the time is limited or
are these conversations that you have to have a lot,
or maybe it is time. I know you don't tell them,
but do you? How do you assist when people are struggling?
Speaker 3: So we do a lot with quality of life scales,
some that we like to use that I would probably
have five of them, and they go anywhere from you know,
is the dog able to be alive?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 3: Are they breathing? Are they eating? Are they drinking? Are
they mentally engaged? I mean really basic, basic level all
the way over to how do you feel about what's
going on? Is the dog engaged? Or what are their
ADLs look like? Their activities at daily living? Are they
able to do those? So depending on which one of
those speaks to an individual, an individual client that we're
working with, I like to send all of them. And
when I had dogs that were in that phase, I
read through them and decided which one spoke to me
and that's the one I stuck with. So what I
what I tell folks is take it now, you.
Speaker 2: Want to take it? Take it before you have the
prop before before you're even having this conversation seriously with.
Speaker 3: Yeah and yeah. Because you have that, you have that baseline,
so when you take it again, you don't have to think, oh,
well it's not that bad. Well he had a thirty
seven here and now he's down to a twenty, just
for an example. So it really gives you. I'm a
data person, it gives you rationally, it gives you a
reason to think, Okay, we're getting close. And I think
after the dog is gone, I think it helps relieve
any of the guilt or much of the guilt that
you have that you did it too soon or you
know you shouldn't have done it. Well, yeah, your dog
was failing, Your dog was telling you that they were ready,
and you listened right and you recorded, and I think
I get I take solace in that.
Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. Yeah. And it's so important to respect the
dogs needs and wishes. You know, we have our own
needs and wishes to have our animals be with us
forever and it isn't going to happen. It's part of
the experience of having a dog. If you have a
dog and love a dog, you're probably gonna lose a
dog or more dogs, and he does, how many you have? Yeah,
I know I have one. She's a rescue, we don't know,
somewhere between eleven and thirteen. And she's definitely showing some
signs of Yeah, so I think I'm gonna need to
make an appointment to come and bring her in and
have you take a look and see what we can do.
She's still very engaged and wonderful. But you know, she
was a therapy dog, and she was a rescue of
course from pack and was a feral dog. I mean
she used to scare grown men, so she was quite wild.
But she became a therapy dog. So she's had, you know,
nine good years of therapy work. But I can tell
she's less interested in going to see the kids. She
still likes to get in the car and go somewhere,
but she can't wait to get back in the car
and go home.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's definitely telling me. Okay, you know this has been great,
but I'm sorry about my body's just not what it was.
And yeah, so that's a lot to face. You know,
It's something that we humans have to face in layers.
It's not something that you make a quick decision about
nobody makes a quick decision exactly. So what are some
of the things at home that people I know, you know,
you'd have to see the dog to know for sure,
but what are some sort of general tips to think
about with you when you're dealing with dogs, Like I
am with you know older she's peeing and pooping in
the house now, you know she's and I think it's
because it's not easy to go up and down the steps.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, So those are behavior changes that are
really one of the things you want to keep an
eye on it. And definitely house training is one of
the big ones. My girl Helen, who happens to be
right over my shoulder there, yes she has. She has
lost her house trading once or twice when it feels like, oh,
I got a poop right now, where that warning system
isn't quite what it used to be. So routine is huge.
Keep it as close as you can, including the bathroom times,
because sometimes they don't realize that they do have to go,
but you take I'm outside and that triggers, oh, this
is where I go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2: Do I have to go? Yeah, I have to go, So.
Speaker 3: That can be helpful feeding times. Obviously, you got to
have a routine for the input to get a routine
for the output. If you have a dog that is
weakening in the hind or the front legs, some sort
of traction is going to be an issue. So you
want to either look at rugs with no skid backing.
You need to be mindful of any trip hazards and
humans that you have in your house. That can be
a tough one. You can also get There are a
couple of different kinds of boots that we love or
socks that we love for this that are easy to
put on and take off. I love lava socks. They're fantastic.
We carry those here. They're like a mix between a
slipper in a sock. But also I love rubber dipped socks,
so they have rubber all the way around them, not
just a cute little paw pattern, so if they rotate,
they still have traction. And we do have a fun
trick on how to keep those on because some people, oh, yeah,
I tried those, but they just fall off, and I'm like,
I got you on that one. Multiple water stations can
be good if you have a dog that doesn't like
to move around. Having that single water station isn't as efficient,
and especially during the summer, you need to make sure
they stay hydrated because the other element to that is
senior dogs don't regulate their temperature as well as they
used to, so being mindful of the temperature of the house.
If you have a dog door, and this is a
big one, if you have a dog door, you need
to make sure that your dog is still able to
manage getting in and out, especially getting in, because getting trapped, yeah,
getting trapped outside in one hundred and ten degree weather
can be a death sentence. That can be very, very bad.
That is not a good way to go. The same
thing is true if you have a pool. Pools can
be great, and I think they're very tricky for people
who have dogs that have in the past been excellent swimmers.
So you know your dog would run out the dog door,
run out the screen, and go jump in the pool,
swim a couple laps, get out, shake off, come inside,
shake off, get everything wet. Those same dogs are at
a severe risk if they get outside and want to
do the same thing as a senior. Now you've got
a senior with let's say a medium or long coat,
guess what, they just increase by weight by about eight
to ten pounds, or the weight of water is about
eight get eight pounds per gallon, So getting in and
out of the pool can be a very bad situation
for those guys. So if you have a pool, you
want to make sure you treat that, you treat your
dog like a toddler around the water. You should always
be there and always be paying attention. So if you
have a way to shut off access to your pool,
you definitely want to do that. Keep gates closed, just
pay attention to that. And I think the other big
one that I would recommend is elevating the food and water.
It should come to about It's kind of hard for
me to show you, but should come to about maybe
mid forearm. So you want them to be able to
relax and put their neck down, to be able to
look at the food or water and then move into
it and then come back up. So, especially if you
have an animal that has had a lot of rear
limb weakness, those front limbs have been doing work, a
lot more work than you know, for longer than you
probably know, so they are tired, they are starting to
break down. So there's no reason to make them do
extra work. If you look at your dog putting their
head all the way down onto the floor to eat
from a bowl on the floor, it's almost like they're
doing a handstand to eat. And so because there's a
lot of head movement when they're eating, there's a lot
of weight shifting happening as well. So elevate that food
so it's easier for them to get the food. Get it,
just have to look up a little bit to chew
and swallow, look back down, so much easier. Same thing
with the water.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great tips, great tips. Well, if people want to
get a hold of you, can they do a video
session with you and get some evaluation and help. Okay,
So that is Kate Titus from a Loyal Companion and
the website is Aloyalcompanion dot com. It's been so delightful
to talk with you. I can't wait to bring Sophia
in my older girl and to see what we can
do to help her have better quality of life in
her advanced senior years.
Speaker 3: Looking forward to seeing her and seeing you again.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much, and thank you for listening
to the Human Animal Connection. We'll see you at the
next podcast. Bye for now thank.
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