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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, and good afternoon. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing very well.

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Speaker 1: The way you write, I want to get into your imagination,

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because what's going on with with with Black Sun Rising?

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Is it feels like something out of the newspaper today.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, yes she was returning out that way. Yes,

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that wasn't quite the intention, but yes I wrote that,

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like what a year almost two years ago, and the

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world has evolved and it's turning closer to what I

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was imagining when I sat down to write it. But

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it's it's still the work of fiction, but it's it's

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based on what I perceived as a real world.

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Speaker 1: Well, I would love to see how people are going

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to react to Marco Zorn in this, in this particular story,

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because I mean you, he deals with a lot of

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heavyweight stuff and he's the only answer to a lot

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of things.

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Speaker 2: Well, it turns out well, at least the way I've

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structured it. In real life, it's usually not one version,

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but yes, in this in a novel form, yes he's

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the one, and it turns out he's critical to exposing

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the plot and defeating the plotters.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever sit back, as the author and wonder

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how our imaginations in vision Marco, what does he look like?

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Is he a Johnny Depp style or is he a

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Brad Pitt kind of guy?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's interesting you should ask, because you know, I

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never described him. I never give his age, I never

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give his appearance. I wanted the reader to fill that in.

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He's in his early forties, he's good looking, he's very

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in very good physical shape, although he probably drinks too

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many martinis and too many salted almonds in the evening.

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He lives a slightly dissipated life. But his actual appearance.

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You know, people ask frequently ask if if it was

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ever made into a movie or television series, what actor

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would I select. You know, I'm having a very hard

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time doing designing on that, and I have to do

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it further thought. But he's going to be he's uh.

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He he likes to dress well, he gets his clothes

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from a tailor. He uh, He's immaculate in his appearance.

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And but beyond that, i'd have to start writing down

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the name is a prominent actress or off hand, I

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can't give you a smart answer.

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Speaker 1: But you know what, what's really interesting about this is

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the fact that it's almost like you're saying, you believe

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in the theater of the mind, what we see inside

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our imaginations is just as much beautiful, you know, when

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it comes to moving pictures.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yes, I believe that very strongly. I think

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all great I'm not putting myself in that class, you understand,

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but great novels and stories, much of the creativity comes

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from the reader. He or she puts builds an image

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of the character as the setting the not just the

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main character, but all of them. And that's a kind

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of a formal creativity on the part of the reader

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or that I think is very important, and I don't

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want to I don't want to destroy that by giving

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too much information.

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Speaker 1: The book we're talking about is Black Sun Rising. I mean,

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this looks and sounds like we said earlier. It looks

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sounds like today. I mean, I mean, white Nazis in

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the White House. I mean, it's like, oh God, And

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because I mean you've seen what we've gone through in

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the past couple of months.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I never thought it would happen this way.

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You know, when I wrote it, I thought this is

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speculative fiction. We've seen this happen in other countries. A

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number of countries. In recent months, the right wing crypto

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fascist movements have arisen in Italy and in France, both

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led incidentally by women, which is an interesting subtopic. But

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we're seeing it in Hungary and in its own special

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nationalist forum, in Russia and in China. It happened once

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in the United States in the nineteen fifties, as you may, yeah, no,

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I never thought it would happen again. I thought all

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that kind of fascist thinking and disappeared. Now I happen

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to believe very strongly in the common sense of the

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American people and the good will and basic decency of

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the American people, And I really don't think it's going

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to turn into a Nazi regime. But it's what I

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see around is scary, and I think I wanted to

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put down a mark or a warning and so to

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speak about what could go wrong.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that, if in

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your own creative way, you're kind of making people aware

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of what could be, well.

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Speaker 2: That's what I was trying to do. Things are going on.

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There's a deterioration and civic discourse, public discorse, a lot

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of it of course coming from the media or for

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mass media, where people are saying things and advocating things

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which five years ago, ten years ago would have been

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unheard of. I don't know why this is happening. I

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think you need a psychopathic or psycho therapist to try

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to explain it, and I don't actually think they would

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know the answer we have. What is going on is

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a sudden or not to sudden, perhaps, but an appeal

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to the strong man, and a strong man who's going

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to be tough and unrel lending in his or her leadership.

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People want leadership, and they'll and anything that interferes with

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their perceived dream of the strong leader is anathema. It

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is being rejected, and I think that's very scary because

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you all subtle, Jay, all nuanced in public debate. It's

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just being washed away and it's either my way or

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no way, and I don't like to see that.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Otho Eskins coming

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up next. Let's get back to that conversation with Otho Eskins.

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One of the things that you cover in your books

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so well is the fact that I love the way

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that you handle conflict, and the conflict for Marco this

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time around is that his partner has been murdered, and

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that leads him straight into Black Sun. And that to

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me is like, Okay, there's the conflict. Now let's go

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get the story, and you lead us along the entire way.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for saying that. I think Marco Zarn

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has a number of conflicts. He said that conflict. Then

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when he infiltrates the Nazi training gap, he finds himself

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in a terrible dilemma. He's training young men who or

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just raw recruits UH into into a fighting force who

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he wants they will. The leadership wants to turn them

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into a kind of a Gestapo armed forces, a militia,

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and uh Zorn is a pall by this and totally

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rejects the objective. On the other hand, he has military background.

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When he's as a he's assuming the position of an

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officer or UH and what he so when he deals

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with these men, he finds that he wants them to

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do two things. He wants them to fail because he

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doesn't want UH these guys to go out there and

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and attack the US government, attacked the army or FBI.

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On the other hand, he wants he wants it takes

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kind of odd pride and even trying to get them

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to learn how to handle weapons, and he doesn't want so.

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At one point, as you may recall, he finds himself

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unwilling to abandon his man. He could leave them and escape,

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and he can't do it because he has a very

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strong moral and ethical convictions, and one of them is

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you don't abandon the people who are working for you.

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The other conflict, of course, is he gets emotionally involved

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with a woman otherwise known as the Bride of the Apocalypse,

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who when he despises and is totally obsessed with. So

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he's got a lot of conflicts.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you brought that up, because I

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wish you could see my notes, and I wanted to

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know that where were you when the identity of the

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bride came into being? Because I mean, were you at

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a mall? Were you at were you visiting someplace? Because

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thoughts like this don't just happen. You had to have

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seen something, smelled something, something just had to happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I knew from the beginning. She appears

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very early on in the second chapter, I think, without identification.

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Then she shows up again when she visits the woman

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who makes trussword puzzles, and then of course she varies

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in directly with Marco Zorn at the training camp, I think,

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and then of course they have interconnection after that. I

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think I knew in concept that what her role is

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she plays. We don't know much about her, we don't

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know how old she is, we don't know her real name,

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and we don't know what she does in this neo

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Nazi movement. But in my mind she plays in a

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crucial key role in in that and she carries out

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including well, I don't want to give away too much,

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but I mean she is a killer and is a

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cold blooded killer and a very dangerous person. I think

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I knew in general terms what she was and but

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obviously there's a lot of but she's mostly a mystery,

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including a mystery to me as a writer, Now, what.

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Speaker 1: Have you learned from each of these characters? I mean,

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putting the words on the page is one thing, but

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you had to have learned something from Marco as well

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as the bride.

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Speaker 2: Well that's interesting, you could learn it that way. Yeah, well,

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I like to when you want to write these characters.

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I have a general notion at the beginning of her

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in the very first book, the reflecting pool about about him.

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A kind of person he is, He's uh, he cuts

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the corners is frequently because illegal or semi illegal things.

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On the other hand, he has a very strong moral

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core and he doesn't violate that. But as I've written

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in the books, his character has evolved. As you know,

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he doesn't like to use guns, and that's a mystery.

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At the beginning, you don't know why. And at the

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beginning I wasn't sure why. I hit it at it

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in the very first novel, but I elaborated a bit

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as going one goes on, and in Black Sun Rising,

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I think I explained it, partially explained what it is

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that he's that he can't bring himself to do and why.

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But it's a I tried to keep Marco Zorn a

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mystery to the reader, in which grad means also a

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bit of a mystery to me.

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Speaker 1: You could have easily put this story inside New York City,

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even Miami, but you chose Washington, d C. What was

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What's the reason is it? Because because when I think

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of the underworld, I don't think of DC.

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Speaker 2: No nobody does. I've chosen for a very simple reason,

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which it's the city. I know this I've lived and

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grew up here. I've lived in other cities both well

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in Europe the Middle East, and I know, I know

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the city, and I wanted to use the city as

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almost as a character in the series. And I elaborate

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that a bit in Black Sunrising, because I created another city,

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another except Guranians city. Now all cities have underground and

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that's where all the electronics and power and gas and communications,

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not to mention sewage and water and is transported, is delivered.

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I take that concept and elaborate it to create an underworld,

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which I which in my imaginations, goes back to the

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early days of Washington, to lease to the period of

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the Civil War when they were building tunnels and areas

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where they could be activities could be carried on. I

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probably carry my description of Washington underworld beyond what it

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actually looks like. There are things going on down there

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which I skip over. There are subways that move through

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via underground. It's just below the surface. And I thought

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I'd like to look at that. I'd like to look

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at Washington and see cities and when a good city,

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a beautiful city, and a city of crime and corrupt you.

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And now I sort double down on that by making

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it quadruple city above the ground and below the ground.

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That was the concept that I was working with in

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writing Block Sudden Rising.

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Speaker 1: Wow, well, you definitely did it well. You did it well.

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Where can people go to find out more about all

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of your books and give you some love?

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Speaker 2: Well, you can go well, obviously you can order it

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on Amazon or I hope at your local bookstore. You

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can learn a little bit more about me if you

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go to my homepage olthoeskn dot com. And uh, I

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think I talk about myself a bit and about my

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writing and my experiences a little bit in where I

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as a foreign service officer for twenty some years. So

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it's all laid out. It's brief. I keep something private,

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but it's there.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Please come back to the show anytime in the future.

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Today's proof that you know the door is always going

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to be open for you. Sir.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much. I always enjoy our conversation.

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It's fun.

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Speaker 1: Will you'd be brilliant today?

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay,