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<v Speaker 1>Well, whiskey coming fame, my pain, moneys, my ry.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh whiskey. Why think alone when you can drink it

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<v Speaker 2>all in with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour, join your

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<v Speaker 2>bartenders Steve Hayward, John You, and the international woman of

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<v Speaker 2>Mystery Lucretia, where they slapped it up and David ain't

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<v Speaker 2>to bes on the should have gotta give me. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>here it is everybody, the special holiday bonus edition of

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<v Speaker 2>the Three Whiskey Happy Hour with a special guest today.

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<v Speaker 2>Who will get to in due course. It's Richard Samuelson.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll get to it now because the people on YouTube

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<v Speaker 2>are watching our lives. You can see you. So Richard,

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<v Speaker 2>what's that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm the turkey?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know about that. We still think, at

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<v Speaker 2>least Lucretian. I think that Gordon Wood is the turkey,

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<v Speaker 2>and you are the arbiter. Being the pre eminent expert

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<v Speaker 2>on John Adams, what you're going to get to as

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<v Speaker 2>part of our bicentennial series. But first, yesterday's special episode,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of trash talk about Thanksgiving and

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<v Speaker 2>I just want to say, first of all, John, you

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<v Speaker 2>it looked like you outsourced Thanksgiving to the Metropolitan club.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what you did?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? It was awesome. Awesome, it was awesome. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know how people. I had a kind of a U

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<v Speaker 3>family reunion, which hasn't occurred in about fifteen years on

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<v Speaker 3>my father's side of the family, and we had people

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<v Speaker 3>from Hawaii, Los Angeles, Texas, Philadelphia of course. I mean

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<v Speaker 3>we had people from all over the country. Come, how

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<v Speaker 3>do people actually cook Thanksgiving dinners for such large numbers

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<v Speaker 3>of people and then not want to kill each other

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<v Speaker 3>by the end of the day. So I figured, let's

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<v Speaker 3>all go out to So we went to the Metropolitan

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<v Speaker 3>Club in Washington because the matriarch of the whole clan

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<v Speaker 3>is now ninety three years old and she lives in Virginia.

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<v Speaker 3>So I was like, let's all go to the Metropolitan.

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<v Speaker 3>It turned out that the shooting of the two National

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<v Speaker 3>Guards people, yeah, happened one block away.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I actually squinted out.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I went and looked at the crime scene, and

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<v Speaker 3>I saw what they were doing. And you know, the

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<v Speaker 3>whole place is surrounded by media who are shooting hourly

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<v Speaker 3>updates with that, you know, with the Farragut West metro

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<v Speaker 3>stop in the background, and it's about thirty eight degrees

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<v Speaker 3>in Washington today.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, we'll come to that story here in due course.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm not finishing. I'm not finished abusing Lucretia back

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<v Speaker 2>for mocking my Where is it? There we go, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to share with you a couple of picks for

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<v Speaker 2>your benefit, and I'll describe it to listeners. There are

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<v Speaker 2>my pop ups.

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<v Speaker 3>We're not Thanksgiving food, but you know what it's about

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<v Speaker 3>that those are popovers cooked on a backyard gas grill.

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<v Speaker 2>And by the way, it was seventy degrees out. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have this thirty eight business, and I didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>if it would even work, but you can see it

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<v Speaker 2>works splendidly.

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<v Speaker 3>And then what is that like a bread popsicle?

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<v Speaker 2>Like? What is It's like? It's like Yorkshire pudding, except

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<v Speaker 2>it's just like Yorkshire pudding.

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<v Speaker 3>And I may hope you have not said any words

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<v Speaker 3>that sound remotely delicious Yorkshire pudding.

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<v Speaker 2>All that must be great? Then, and here is the rotisserie.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh god, it is not burned as Lucretia said it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It is smoked, so it's got a great smoky flavor,

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<v Speaker 2>juicy throughout even the breast meat because it's self based

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<v Speaker 2>and you have all that lovely juice below it. And

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<v Speaker 2>I will try and post these pictures and show notes

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<v Speaker 2>on Ricochet when we finally get round to it. And

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<v Speaker 2>so so there, and that.

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<v Speaker 4>Looks like Facebook too, Steve.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, well I did that already, but it looks like

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<v Speaker 3>it was a haroshima Jesus. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And then but I also got shipped. Finally it arrived today,

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<v Speaker 2>my new favorite whiskey, Kilcoran from Campbelltown. It is fifty

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<v Speaker 2>eight percent fifty eight percent alcohol, so what's I almost

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and twenty proof. It says they're heavily petd,

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<v Speaker 2>which means I won't have to share anyone. It's really good. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I've discovered this store. I don't know if you ever saw, John,

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<v Speaker 2>but about a block down from the Washington Hilton where

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<v Speaker 2>the Federal Society Annual beating is, there's a store in

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<v Speaker 2>the corner called Spirits and Spices. Yes, okay, that's what this.

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<v Speaker 2>This is where I discovered it. They were tasting this

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<v Speaker 2>and well they have great stuff there, including you know,

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<v Speaker 2>great custom spices. Okay, I'm glad you know that place because.

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<v Speaker 3>It looks nice.

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<v Speaker 2>Souh Okay, Lucretia, What are you going to be drinking later?

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<v Speaker 4>I'm drinking Famous Grouse, which is a blended scotch. But

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<v Speaker 4>because it's three o'clock in the after actually it's only

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<v Speaker 4>one o'clock in the afternoon where I am, I'm drinking

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<v Speaker 4>it in a little chocolate container. It's a dark chocolate

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<v Speaker 4>container filled with scotch.

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<v Speaker 3>The bottle made the bottle of chocolate, and you eat

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<v Speaker 3>the bottle.

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<v Speaker 4>You eat the bottle, you bite the end off the bottle,

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<v Speaker 4>drink the scotch and the rest of it. Oh wow,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm going to do that right now, because it's about

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<v Speaker 4>the appropriate amount of scotch to be drinking in the

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<v Speaker 4>middle of the afternoon on a Friday, even if it

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<v Speaker 4>is sort of a holiday.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, And Richard, are you are you imbibing in

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<v Speaker 2>recommended spirit this weekend?

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<v Speaker 3>Not?

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<v Speaker 2>Just yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Probably have some Highland park I would probably be having.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, okay, that's right, right.

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<v Speaker 5>It wasn't Famous Grouse, Margaret Thatcher's prefer a Scotch.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh it might be.

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<v Speaker 4>All I know is that Steve drinks that swell, that

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<v Speaker 4>the that the King likes.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, Freud, yeah, I think so. Yeah, But he's well, okay, yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>That's Scotch should gather no moss.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I won't count that one against your quota, Richard.

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<v Speaker 2>That's pretty good. I mean that the other one you

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<v Speaker 2>get to pass on is sickle sell amnesia. That's an

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<v Speaker 2>awfully good one, right for people who forget. Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 2>a that's a wonderful one. That's a good one. Yeah. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>well it turns out to be true. All right. So

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<v Speaker 2>let's turn to a couple of items of news, and

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<v Speaker 2>then we're going to get to with Richard to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about John Adams and stuff. So, yeah, John, you just

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned you're there where the National Guard shooting is. And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what to say about this yet except

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<v Speaker 2>the oddist well, probably a lot of exceptions. The fact

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<v Speaker 2>that this person was living in Bellingham, Washington, and so

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<v Speaker 2>he had to drive at least five days across the

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<v Speaker 2>country to commit this shooting. Why drive all that way?

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<v Speaker 2>There are lots of National Guard people and government officials

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<v Speaker 2>and probably Ice agents you could have found in Seattle

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<v Speaker 2>if you wanted to. So the fact that he wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to drive all the way to Washington, d C. Suggests

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<v Speaker 2>some kind of premedita obvious premeditation.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>But then the next question is was he a radical

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<v Speaker 2>jiehattist while he was working in cooperatively with our forces

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<v Speaker 2>in Afghanistan or was he radicalized over here after he

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<v Speaker 2>came here in twenty twenty one when we bugged out

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<v Speaker 2>of Afghanistan? Do you John, do you anybody having opinion

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<v Speaker 2>on this or another question to raise about it?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think for the question of first degree murder

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<v Speaker 3>capital murder, the statute is wonderfully old fashioned. It doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>say a lot of modern you know, modern language. It

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<v Speaker 3>actually uses the old fashioned English description of first degree murder,

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<v Speaker 3>which is murder with malice a forethought, right, That's the

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<v Speaker 3>way it used to be known in the common law,

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<v Speaker 3>and so that but that's cold blooded murder. Was a

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<v Speaker 3>planned or was it deliberate as opposed to something that's

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<v Speaker 3>not going to be usually subject to the death penalty,

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<v Speaker 3>like you're a sudden reaction or you're responding something self defense,

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<v Speaker 3>something that's caused by the events. So the planning driving

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<v Speaker 3>five days makes it sound and the going to Washington,

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<v Speaker 3>it's just a symbolic target, makes it seem like there's

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<v Speaker 3>not going to be a lot of difficulty claiming first

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<v Speaker 3>degree murder. But President Trump, i think yesterday said or

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<v Speaker 3>even this morning, said he heard that this guy had

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<v Speaker 3>mental health problems caused by his service in Afghanistan. That's

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<v Speaker 3>the kind of Yeah, working as a for an Afghan

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<v Speaker 3>unit that was trained by the CIA to uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>work on you know, sounds like they were an assassination unit.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe if that's true, then they're gonna his defense will

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<v Speaker 3>use that to try to claim that he is mental

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<v Speaker 3>illness and that he can't and he hasn't and if

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<v Speaker 3>he really is mentally ill, then you know, he's he

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<v Speaker 3>can't be found guilty of murder. You have to be

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<v Speaker 3>held as what used the old fashion phrase used to

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<v Speaker 3>be criminally insane?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, can I ask.

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<v Speaker 4>A question about that and just get you guys' thoughts

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<v Speaker 4>on it. So I recognize that the Supreme Court has

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<v Speaker 4>said that you cannot execute someone who is not mentally

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<v Speaker 4>capable of understanding the oh, the reason that that their

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<v Speaker 4>crime was a crime, et cetera, et cetera. I'm of

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<v Speaker 4>the opinion that that's when you ought.

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<v Speaker 2>To execute someone.

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<v Speaker 4>And here's what I'm thinking about this is, so the

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<v Speaker 4>guy that killed that set the woman on fire in Chicago,

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<v Speaker 4>just a week or so ago, was let out of

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<v Speaker 4>the mental the mental prison what was it called the

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<v Speaker 4>mental institution prison? There's a name for it, because he

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<v Speaker 4>was too dangerous to be there.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, I know that he chat one through.

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<v Speaker 3>So what then do you do?

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<v Speaker 4>And and if someone has become so so unhuman, inhuman,

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<v Speaker 4>that's other lacking human qualities due to mental health problems,

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<v Speaker 4>why then do we owe them the right to stay alive.

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<v Speaker 4>It's just something that doesn't make a lot of sense

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<v Speaker 4>to me. You know, a guy who gets off after

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<v Speaker 4>raping and torturing in a small child because he's got

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<v Speaker 4>mental of course, you have mental health problems. Only a

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<v Speaker 4>person with severe mental health problems could do such a

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<v Speaker 4>horrid thing, And a lot of crime falls, in my opinion,

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<v Speaker 4>into that category. Why don't we execute people who are

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<v Speaker 4>mentally unstable or schizophrenic or whatever? I mean, what's the

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<v Speaker 4>argument other than what can't it's I don't know what

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<v Speaker 4>the argument is.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I suppose the argument would be that sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know enough about this. Sometimes people with mental

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<v Speaker 2>illnesses get over them, either to treatment or who knows what. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, brain functions are still really mysterious Is.

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<v Speaker 4>That an ancient thing though, guys, no.

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<v Speaker 3>No, this is this is a Supreme Court do process clause.

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<v Speaker 3>So it used to be in our country that the

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<v Speaker 3>death penalty wasn't limited to first degree murder. Right, it's

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<v Speaker 3>only a recent Supreme Court case seventy thirty years ago. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>that says you, because rape, first degree murder, not just

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<v Speaker 3>for but rape used to be a capital right act

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<v Speaker 3>in some states.

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<v Speaker 2>But I do things.

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<v Speaker 3>Over time in the sixties and fifties and sixties at

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<v Speaker 3>the Court started to really narrow that death penalty could used.

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<v Speaker 3>Fronder they doe process clause. I think that was, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of that was the reaction to the I

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<v Speaker 3>think abuse of the death penalty in the segregated South.

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<v Speaker 3>But maybe, like a lot of things at the Warrant

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<v Speaker 3>Court did, they went so far in eradicating segregation that

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<v Speaker 3>they just banned things completely which in some other context

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<v Speaker 3>might be legitimate.

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<v Speaker 5>Richard, my recollection is the seventeenth century, and then more

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<v Speaker 5>the eighteenth century. I remember the way the law went

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<v Speaker 5>in English law and the colonies. There were hosts of

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<v Speaker 5>offenses for which a death penalty included kidnapping and other things.

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<v Speaker 5>So we actually have scaled it way back from the

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<v Speaker 5>founding era justly, but.

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<v Speaker 2>Compared to well in those days. It's the act itself,

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<v Speaker 2>not that was qualified as a rape right. It was

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<v Speaker 2>always a capital crime back then. I do think Lucretia,

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<v Speaker 2>the argument in favor of your point is actually a

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<v Speaker 2>theological one that of all people, this will confound you

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit of all people. The person who argued

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<v Speaker 2>that a death penalty was actually merciful was Russell Kirk

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<v Speaker 2>about thirty years ago in a very interesting article in

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<v Speaker 2>Modern Age which somehow stuck in my head, and he said,

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<v Speaker 2>if weirdly believe that people have a soul, and you

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<v Speaker 2>have somebody who that we described as having mental illness

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<v Speaker 2>or something, but it obviously has a tortured soul, are

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<v Speaker 2>we really doing them a favor by keeping them alive

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<v Speaker 2>in a prison cell for forty years. I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>that's a frivolous argument. It may be a hard one

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<v Speaker 2>to make legally and otherwise, but I think that's a

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<v Speaker 2>serious argument. I think that's the better one.

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<v Speaker 4>But it's not necessarily a problem with that. Steve is

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<v Speaker 4>not necessarily just a death penalty. I mean, they don't

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<v Speaker 4>put people accused of serious mental problems in regular prisons

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<v Speaker 4>either they put them in Why can't I remember them?

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<v Speaker 2>I used to have next.

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<v Speaker 4>Door to one.

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<v Speaker 1>They put them in women's bathrooms.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah that was good.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, that was good.

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<v Speaker 4>But I sorry, I didn't mean to get us off

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<v Speaker 4>on that tangent. But I was actually seriously thinking about

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<v Speaker 4>it when I saw the news report the other day

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<v Speaker 4>about how the judge had let that guy out because

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<v Speaker 4>he was too dangerous for a mental prison, a mental

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<v Speaker 4>institution prison, I think, prison for the criminally insane.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think. Actually, there are a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>in regular prisons that have mental illness. You hear this

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<v Speaker 2>a lot, and that's become a substitute for the lack

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<v Speaker 2>of mental institutions like we used to have, I think.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the ones staunch here is that the one

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<v Speaker 2>this person was in was not equipped for a violently

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<v Speaker 2>mentally ill person because he hadn't been convicted in a

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<v Speaker 2>normal way. If you know how that plays out, it's

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<v Speaker 2>just shows the dysfunction of the whole darn scene. Right now.

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<v Speaker 3>This is what the voters of Illinois won, right or

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<v Speaker 3>this is Illinois because they're not willing to spend the

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<v Speaker 3>money to build the right kinds of prisons and build enough,

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<v Speaker 3>pay for enough police force, and they're going to have

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<v Speaker 3>a system where judges are build directors are letting out

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<v Speaker 3>people like this, and then they visit this kind of

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<v Speaker 3>harm on their population, and then they keep the same

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<v Speaker 3>officials in business. Will electing people who make these decisions

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<v Speaker 3>that allow this kind of crime rate to go on.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, yeah, I mean I wonder about the premise

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<v Speaker 2>of your statement, John, I'll bet if you put it

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<v Speaker 2>to a vote in Illinois the way we can put

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<v Speaker 2>things to a vote in California. I'm thinking back to

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<v Speaker 2>the three Strikes initiative thirty years ago, which passed two

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<v Speaker 2>to one in California, right, And if you put a

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<v Speaker 2>bond measure to build more prisons, I'll bet it would

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<v Speaker 2>pass in California. In Illinois, you know, people vote for

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<v Speaker 2>complicated reasons, and prison and crime maybe number one, but

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<v Speaker 2>they don't necessarily associate her to vote or cast a

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<v Speaker 2>vote on that issue anyway.

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<v Speaker 3>But this is a result of one party blue states.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, yeah, okay.

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<v Speaker 3>This is like this happened in California too, This happening

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<v Speaker 3>in Illinois, happening in New York where you have high

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<v Speaker 3>crime rates because of the refusal to engage in tough sentencing.

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<v Speaker 2>And Richard to give you the last word on which

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<v Speaker 2>she keep re electing these people to off.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, but John would know about this much better than I.

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<v Speaker 5>But I mean some of the issue is the federal

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<v Speaker 5>courts have I posed standards of minimal housing, minimal housing standards,

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<v Speaker 5>want of a better term on prisons, which makes them

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<v Speaker 5>much more expensive, and then you kept them back and

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<v Speaker 5>so you're squeezed on the budget side and on the

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<v Speaker 5>other side of the people that I think overly compassionate people.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Right, Well, there's the just one.

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<v Speaker 4>Last thing, because there's always I always think about this

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<v Speaker 4>whenever John says this. It's not that I disagree. He

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<v Speaker 4>said the same thing. I'll remind you when we would

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<v Speaker 4>talk about under the Biden administration, Uh, why it's an

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<v Speaker 4>emergency for states to stop illegal immigrants going through their

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<v Speaker 4>their states. And John's argument was what people should vote

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<v Speaker 4>Biden out of office, which of course they did. But

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<v Speaker 4>there is too many layers of separation. I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 4>not even Kevin Bacon style stuff. It's really serious separation

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<v Speaker 4>between a politician who goes out in front of these

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<v Speaker 4>people in lies about what they're doing, or or dissembles

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<v Speaker 4>or gas lights and one party rule and all those

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<v Speaker 4>other things. I guess I'm saying the same thing that

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<v Speaker 4>Steve was saying in a different way. There is not

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<v Speaker 4>a one to one correlation between the crime that people

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<v Speaker 4>see in their communities and the stupid mayor that they

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<v Speaker 4>voted in to be mayor of Chicago.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, let's put a let's put aside for some

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<v Speaker 2>other time the problem of rational ignorance in the complex

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<v Speaker 2>field of voting choice and so forth, and let's just

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<v Speaker 2>get out with one more aspect of this. So Trump

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<v Speaker 2>says he wants to prohibit or pause or whatever immigration

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<v Speaker 2>from certain high.

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<v Speaker 4>Risk countries countries.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, he said that. Okay, I'm thinking of his

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<v Speaker 2>previous formulation of those kinds of countries, which okay. But

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<v Speaker 2>here's the adjunct, adjunct, the parallel question right now, is

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<v Speaker 2>this scandal out of Minnesota. I say scandal, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>Scott Johnson, my old writing partner's been writing about this

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<v Speaker 2>for years, of the massive fraud of the Somali immigrant

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<v Speaker 2>community in Minnesota, which is now really exploding into the

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<v Speaker 2>public view. Seventy eight prosecutions so far, with more to come.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, there's an immigration problem, and it's not

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<v Speaker 2>just unique to us. You're seeing you know, over in Europe,

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<v Speaker 2>you're seeing more and more public support behind not only

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<v Speaker 2>rolling it back. But oh, didn't Trump use the phrase remigration.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a phrase that's been used by some of the

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<v Speaker 2>nationalist parties in Europe recently, Like, you know, people have

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<v Speaker 2>come here, they need to go back home, which I've

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<v Speaker 2>been predicting for years was going to start happening. But

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<v Speaker 2>now the President of the United States is talking about it,

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<v Speaker 2>and other countries are talking about it. I don't that's

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<v Speaker 2>an observation, not really a question. Anyone want to grab

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<v Speaker 2>hold of that for a moment before we move.

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<v Speaker 3>On and guarantee one place there's not going to be remigration.

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<v Speaker 3>As to people wanting to go back to Afghanist.

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<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't laugh, of course.

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<v Speaker 3>Like what you mean like voluntarily leaving the United States

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<v Speaker 3>to go back somewhere else, or you mean involuntarily being deported? Well,

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<v Speaker 3>see Blue, migration doesn't add anything if you're just talking

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<v Speaker 3>about deporting people.

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<v Speaker 4>So, John, the last time I was was at you

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<v Speaker 4>at Berkeley. My Uber driver from the airport to the

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<v Speaker 4>hotel in Berkeley was an Afghan who had been relocated

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<v Speaker 4>after the disaster in Afghanistan, and Uh indicated he might

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<v Speaker 4>have worked for the CIA. He was a chancelator, and

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<v Speaker 4>he was quite a charming fellow. We talked the whole

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<v Speaker 4>way and it was really quite interesting to me. But

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<v Speaker 4>I remember thinking that some of his views were a

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<v Speaker 4>little off, And so I'm just wondering if it's really

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<v Speaker 4>true that the idea that you can just bring in

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<v Speaker 4>massive quantities of people who want out of where they

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<v Speaker 4>come from is isn't necessarily the entire indication that they

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<v Speaker 4>belong here in America.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess no.

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<v Speaker 4>Douglas Murray had a great piece of I.

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<v Speaker 3>Agree with you. I agree with you, But I also

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<v Speaker 3>think we can't leave our allies behind. I mean, if

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<v Speaker 3>this guy really was working for the CIA, I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>he would have been executed by the Taliban. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>I think we have to. I mean if we don't,

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<v Speaker 3>I think how hard it's going to be for us

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<v Speaker 3>to have local allies the next time we're in a war.

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<v Speaker 4>And to be fair for a moment, remember that was

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<v Speaker 4>a huge I'm sorry, I mean to talk about. There

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<v Speaker 4>was a lot of outcry against the Biden administration for

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<v Speaker 4>not bringing all those people back at the time, do

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<v Speaker 4>you guys remember that, a lot of outcry about it, well.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's get out, let's get out with this, which was

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<v Speaker 2>just out of historical memory being important. Let us recall

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<v Speaker 2>that in the nineteen seventies, Senator Joe Biden opposed bringing

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<v Speaker 2>over to our country South Vietnamese citizens who had worked

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<v Speaker 2>for American forces in the CIA in that conflict. And

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, I'm not aware of any South Vietnamese

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<v Speaker 2>who did come here either in nineteen seventy four to

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<v Speaker 2>seventy five or in the second wave in seventy nine

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<v Speaker 2>and eighty, that any of them became terrorists are violent

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<v Speaker 2>in this country. So there's that cultural question, which is

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<v Speaker 2>the course, very delicate. But we've got to figure that out. Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>The other thing that some listeners have asked us about

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<v Speaker 2>before we get to Richard Sammons soon on our main

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<v Speaker 2>subject is this case out of Texas. It's now like

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<v Speaker 2>ten days old, involving the district court judge that struck

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<v Speaker 2>down the Republican Republican proposed redistricting plan for next year's election,

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<v Speaker 2>which prompted a dissent by judge, where is it here?

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<v Speaker 2>Jerry Smith? Jerry Smith, And boy, I've never heard that way.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a district a circuit judge, I guess right, circuit judge. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of samples. It's one hundred and four pages,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course it immediately gets into the weeds of

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<v Speaker 2>all the different precedents and different tests and the details

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<v Speaker 2>of district by district. But the part that got into

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<v Speaker 2>the media was Judge Smith saying, fasten your seatbelt. It's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be a bumpy knight. And then he's criticizing

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<v Speaker 2>the district judge who ruled, Judge Jeffrey Vincent Brown, who

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<v Speaker 2>I understand is a Trump appointee. A judge Smith said

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<v Speaker 2>it was pernicious judicial misbehavior. He says, in my thirty

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<v Speaker 2>seven years on the federal bench, this is the most

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<v Speaker 2>outrageous conduct by a judge I have ever encountered in

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<v Speaker 2>a case in which I have been involved. And he

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<v Speaker 2>says page three, if there was a Nobel Prize for fiction,

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<v Speaker 2>Judge Brown's opinion would be a prime candidate. Says, this

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<v Speaker 2>is the most blatant exercise of judicial activism I have

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<v Speaker 2>ever witnessed. And then this part is really gratuitous, but

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<v Speaker 2>I like it. There's the old joke, what's the difference

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<v Speaker 2>between God and a federal district judge? Answer? God doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>think he's a federal judge. And he's got a second

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<v Speaker 2>version of the joke, just to make sure we get

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<v Speaker 2>the point. So, first of all, I gat it this

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<v Speaker 2>has been stayed by an upper court. But John, this

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<v Speaker 2>strikes me as rather unusual. I mean, it's one thing

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<v Speaker 2>to have a sentence or two that pokes the other

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<v Speaker 2>side of an opinion. You know, Justice Scalia was good

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<v Speaker 2>at that, but this goes on for several pages and

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00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.240
<v Speaker 2>he's really angry about it. And this makes me as

423
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:12.200
<v Speaker 2>somewhat rare or you know, out on the spectrum of

424
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.440
<v Speaker 2>judicial descents. And I think it points to a larger question.

425
00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to hold for now, But what did you

426
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:18.319
<v Speaker 2>make of the whole thing?

427
00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:23.920
<v Speaker 3>This is the harshest descent I've ever read by any

428
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.039
<v Speaker 3>judge at any core. But it doesn't have to do

429
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:29.440
<v Speaker 3>with the substance of the case. I mean it's not.

430
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:32.160
<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's not what prompted the over the top

431
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:36.319
<v Speaker 3>descents that the judges. So this is a special case, right,

432
00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:39.079
<v Speaker 3>This is under a voting Rights Act challenge to the

433
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.480
<v Speaker 3>Texas redistricting, which we all followed, and the claim by

434
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:49.480
<v Speaker 3>the plaintiffs was that Texas actually redistricted for racial reasons,

435
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.519
<v Speaker 3>not the effort to squeeze five more house seats out

436
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.359
<v Speaker 3>of Texas, which seems like the obvious and apparent reason,

437
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:01.200
<v Speaker 3>which was much discussed publicly. So the thing that got

438
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:04.519
<v Speaker 3>Judge Smith, who's an excellent conservative judge, one of the

439
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:07.240
<v Speaker 3>most conservative circuit judges in the country in that court

440
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.640
<v Speaker 3>along with Eve Jones, who we've had on the podcast,

441
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.000
<v Speaker 3>was that the judges issued their opinion without giving Judge

442
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.759
<v Speaker 3>Smith the chance to issue his descent, and so the

443
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.599
<v Speaker 3>descent came several days later. That's I mean, that's usually

444
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.240
<v Speaker 3>basically unheard of. Usually, you they come out together because

445
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.279
<v Speaker 3>the one of the purposes of the descent is that

446
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:34.839
<v Speaker 3>it's there to force the majority to respond and it

447
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.519
<v Speaker 3>helps to narrow the issues down. And for the majority

448
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.640
<v Speaker 3>just to issue their opinion without letting the dissent issue

449
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.880
<v Speaker 3>at all is I don't think there's any statute against that,

450
00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:47.240
<v Speaker 3>but I've never heard of anybody doing that before. I mean,

451
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:52.240
<v Speaker 3>that's so outrageous. So Judge Judge Smith, I think was

452
00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:54.119
<v Speaker 3>quite right to be over the top of this heat.

453
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:56.079
<v Speaker 3>The other thing about these kind of courts is that's

454
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:58.279
<v Speaker 3>a three judge court and they're only done for these

455
00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:01.680
<v Speaker 3>Voting Rights Act cases of them are trial judges, and

456
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.200
<v Speaker 3>only Judge Smith was the appeals judge. So he's basically saying,

457
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.160
<v Speaker 3>you idiot, trial judges have no idea how to act

458
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.000
<v Speaker 3>on an appellate court when you have three other judges,

459
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:13.279
<v Speaker 3>two other judges on the panel with you, and you're

460
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:17.039
<v Speaker 3>supposed to be collegial, and you go back and forth,

461
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:19.920
<v Speaker 3>and it helps the decision making process to have a

462
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:22.440
<v Speaker 3>majority in descent that go back and forth. So I'm

463
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.359
<v Speaker 3>not surprised at all that Judge Smith sent up this

464
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:29.759
<v Speaker 3>warning flare with this descent, and Judge Justice Alito intervened

465
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.160
<v Speaker 3>and stayed the case, and it will probably, I imagine,

466
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:36.119
<v Speaker 3>get granted by the Supreme Court. And I think we

467
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:39.000
<v Speaker 3>first because I think Judge Smith's subsequent points were right,

468
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:42.319
<v Speaker 3>that the majority is completely wrong trying to detect signs

469
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:46.400
<v Speaker 3>of racism and the Texas redistricting when it's obvious why

470
00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:49.039
<v Speaker 3>Texas did it was to get more Republican seats, and

471
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:52.160
<v Speaker 3>that's okay. The courts are not allowed to review partisan

472
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:53.839
<v Speaker 3>motives and redistricting.

473
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:58.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then the whole the separate case the Supreme

474
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.039
<v Speaker 2>Court has already heard on about the Voting Rights Act

475
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:04.960
<v Speaker 2>may have implications in this, I think, is that correct?

476
00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:06.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's the Calais case.

477
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:07.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that might.

478
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.240
<v Speaker 3>That might remove any grounding any claim that even race

479
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.640
<v Speaker 3>can be permitted at all, because still there is this

480
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:20.640
<v Speaker 3>so far, there's still legal authority under the Voting Rights

481
00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.599
<v Speaker 3>Act as it's read by the courts, to redistrict in

482
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:27.839
<v Speaker 3>order to increase the representation of minority members of Congress,

483
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.480
<v Speaker 3>which I think is completely a violation of the fourteenth

484
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.359
<v Speaker 3>and fifteenth Amendments. But well, I think that's the way

485
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.000
<v Speaker 3>the Court will ruled this summer too. By this summer

486
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:36.880
<v Speaker 3>too right.

487
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, my political theory meaning ordinary politics theory of not

488
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:45.400
<v Speaker 2>political philosophy, theory of Judge Smith's vituperation on the first

489
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.640
<v Speaker 2>few pages was to make sure that became a public spectacle.

490
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:51.160
<v Speaker 2>Out of mean spectacle in the pejorative sense of that word,

491
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.920
<v Speaker 2>but the fact that it made news. It may be

492
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.480
<v Speaker 2>like front page news, And I think it highlights a

493
00:25:56.519 --> 00:26:00.079
<v Speaker 2>broader problem we're seeing right now, which is we're really well,

494
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:01.880
<v Speaker 2>we're just putting a lot of strain on the judiciary

495
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.599
<v Speaker 2>under Trump, as we dine under President Franklin Roosevelt. I

496
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:07.720
<v Speaker 2>may come back to that point later. So this is

497
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:11.680
<v Speaker 2>not unusual in a certain broader historical sense. But we've

498
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:14.599
<v Speaker 2>seen all these district judges trying to nationwide injunctions and

499
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:19.319
<v Speaker 2>so forth and willfully blocked Trump's agenda. And this was

500
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:21.720
<v Speaker 2>not a Trump matter. This was just the state of Texas.

501
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:24.920
<v Speaker 2>But still it seems to me that Judge Smith said,

502
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:26.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's time that more of the public be

503
00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:28.920
<v Speaker 2>aware that there's a lot of lawfare going on, not

504
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.160
<v Speaker 2>just against Trump. That's my theory of it.

505
00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:35.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, also, he made sure the Supreme Court knew about

506
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:36.039
<v Speaker 3>the case.

507
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, and.

508
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:42.319
<v Speaker 3>Immediately intervened right to stay this decision.

509
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Right.

510
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:46.799
<v Speaker 3>It's actually interesting. I'm actually curious what the other everybody

511
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.759
<v Speaker 3>else thinks, because it's not clear to me that Trump's

512
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.920
<v Speaker 3>gambit to get states to rejigger their maps to increase

513
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:55.960
<v Speaker 3>the number of republic House and it is going to work,

514
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.279
<v Speaker 3>because if Texas ends up getting stayed in some way

515
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:02.640
<v Speaker 3>in calif Fifornia as goes ahead, then Trump will have lost.

516
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.039
<v Speaker 3>There will be actually more Democratic seats than they were before.

517
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:08.079
<v Speaker 2>Won't there could be? I mean, you know, who.

518
00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:12.720
<v Speaker 4>Knows, assuming a status quo election, which is a big assumption.

519
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:18.759
<v Speaker 5>But yeah, and my understanding is the referendum for redistricting

520
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.920
<v Speaker 5>in California wasn't quite regular, and the Republicans decided not

521
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:25.720
<v Speaker 5>to challenge it preemptively, and they.

522
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:27.119
<v Speaker 1>May not have won, but it's interesting.

523
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.400
<v Speaker 5>I think they apparently decided that was too aggressive or something.

524
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:32.519
<v Speaker 5>I'm not sure what how the decision making went. I

525
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:33.359
<v Speaker 5>for a little bit about this.

526
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:35.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I think I have.

527
00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:42.039
<v Speaker 3>Subsequently, the Justice Department actually has and right me, Dillon,

528
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:45.200
<v Speaker 3>your guest on the podcast, has brought suit.

529
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:48.559
<v Speaker 2>And then there's some California that and some state Republicans

530
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:50.039
<v Speaker 2>have brought a suit too, and I don't know, you

531
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:51.920
<v Speaker 2>know what level the hell will be consolidated or whatever,

532
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:55.920
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, Richard, I think the reason that happened wash First,

533
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:58.039
<v Speaker 2>it would probably been hurt in state court first, and

534
00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:00.799
<v Speaker 2>they would have lost because the state courts are tilted. Second,

535
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:02.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, at the beginning of all that, it looked

536
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:06.880
<v Speaker 2>like the Republicans might defeat the initiative. I actually expected

537
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:09.319
<v Speaker 2>it when it first was announced that it would be defeated,

538
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.599
<v Speaker 2>but news of his folks ran a really good campaign,

539
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:14.200
<v Speaker 2>had a ton of money, and they managed to make

540
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:16.559
<v Speaker 2>it about Trump. And the funny thing was just a

541
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:19.640
<v Speaker 2>couple of great polls by you know, our pals at Berkeley,

542
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:21.640
<v Speaker 2>John that you know what's his name does and and

543
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:26.599
<v Speaker 2>a couple other polsters, well Citron and you know his

544
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:30.160
<v Speaker 2>polster guy that never minded Africa Field Pole Field, the

545
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.079
<v Speaker 2>old Field Pole guy, right, who does you know? He

546
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:33.480
<v Speaker 2>used to share an office with him, and he's a

547
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:36.480
<v Speaker 2>really good polster. But they found that on the one hand,

548
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:41.039
<v Speaker 2>huge majority of Californians prefer redistricting by the Nonpartisan Commission.

549
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:43.720
<v Speaker 2>We have that Democrats have gained. But never mind that.

550
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:46.759
<v Speaker 2>But they're going to vote for this initiative because there's

551
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:49.200
<v Speaker 2>a way to signal their displeasure with Trump, and that's

552
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:51.720
<v Speaker 2>what all the ads are about. And so and then

553
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:55.039
<v Speaker 2>Republicans gave up, I mean, they quit spending money against

554
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.680
<v Speaker 2>it because they realized they were losing so badly. Okay,

555
00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:58.680
<v Speaker 2>so that was a weird thing.

556
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:01.079
<v Speaker 1>What else?

557
00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:02.279
<v Speaker 2>What also?

558
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.759
<v Speaker 4>I mean it was a really low turnout election.

559
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:10.519
<v Speaker 3>Right, Yes, Lucretia were like this. It was mail in only.

560
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:15.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. Mail in ballants. Right, yeah, yeah, I

561
00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:17.160
<v Speaker 2>don't know what the turnout was. But all right, let's

562
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:20.279
<v Speaker 2>move on because uh, Richard has to go here in

563
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:23.279
<v Speaker 2>a little while. So rich as you know Richard, last

564
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:26.079
<v Speaker 2>week we had a spirited debate that pitted Lucretian and

565
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:28.720
<v Speaker 2>I against John about the great Gordon Wood. A lot

566
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:30.599
<v Speaker 2>to be said about that. But one of the things

567
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:33.559
<v Speaker 2>about Wood's argument, or about his book is there's a

568
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:37.000
<v Speaker 2>famous chapter in it called the Relevance and Irrelevance of

569
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:39.400
<v Speaker 2>John Adams, and I haven't read it in a long time.

570
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:41.400
<v Speaker 2>I tried to dust it off a little bit incuting

571
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:43.400
<v Speaker 2>and also another article of yours i'll bring up in

572
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:49.279
<v Speaker 2>a moment. But so, first of all, I had this

573
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.960
<v Speaker 2>odd recollection. That chapter was kind of an odd man

574
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.440
<v Speaker 2>out or an oddball chapter is sort of stuck down

575
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:58.200
<v Speaker 2>towards the end, and it just takes in John Adams

576
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:01.599
<v Speaker 2>at isolation and and I tried to scam it here earlier,

577
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.319
<v Speaker 2>but I didn't get very far. And so you are

578
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.640
<v Speaker 2>the John Adams expert, and so i'll ask for your

579
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:10.880
<v Speaker 2>take after first you identify yourselves for listeners as to

580
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:13.799
<v Speaker 2>where you were teaching, and you know what you do.

581
00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:19.160
<v Speaker 5>Well, I'm American historian and the founding by training an

582
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.839
<v Speaker 5>associate professor of government at Hillsdale College is Washington, DZ Campus.

583
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.519
<v Speaker 1>Right, So that's the short version, and you.

584
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:29.720
<v Speaker 5>Could have transitioned by point out we're talking about Elvitte,

585
00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:31.759
<v Speaker 5>Gary's close friend John Adams.

586
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:38.319
<v Speaker 2>Oh, oh, good, point right, the originator of gerrymandering or

587
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:40.680
<v Speaker 2>gary mandering. That that argument's going to be one forever.

588
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:42.759
<v Speaker 2>How you're supposed to pronounce it? Anyway, What do you

589
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.599
<v Speaker 2>make of that chapter of wich or what should people

590
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:47.119
<v Speaker 2>know about? Well, first of all, John Adams was one

591
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.359
<v Speaker 2>of the co authors of the Declaration of Independence, or

592
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:52.759
<v Speaker 2>at least he had some substantial input into it, even

593
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:55.119
<v Speaker 2>if Jefferson was the primary drafter and the person we

594
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:58.920
<v Speaker 2>always quote about the matter. But so start wherever you

595
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:01.400
<v Speaker 2>want with John Adams. What do we know about him?

596
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:06.079
<v Speaker 5>Oliy Adams was one of the leading politicians in lawyers

597
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:11.119
<v Speaker 5>and politicians in Massachusetts, and so he was the head

598
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:14.359
<v Speaker 5>of the first if I remember correctly, he was the

599
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:18.440
<v Speaker 5>first person selected for the delegation to both Congresses and

600
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.519
<v Speaker 5>was probably the leading guy in the second Congress, but

601
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:24.039
<v Speaker 5>also was pain in the net because he was pushing

602
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:28.279
<v Speaker 5>worth anyone else for independence, and wasn't patient to let

603
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:29.079
<v Speaker 5>other people.

604
00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Come along, right, And then he was the.

605
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:36.000
<v Speaker 5>Principal author of the Massachusetts Constitution of seventy eighty in

606
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:39.359
<v Speaker 5>Massachusetts was the first state to have a special convention

607
00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:42.440
<v Speaker 5>and then ratification by the people. So they created that

608
00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:46.720
<v Speaker 5>process proposed actually by the people, have conquered roughly lay

609
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:48.599
<v Speaker 5>process in seventeen seventy six.

610
00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Can I interrupt you there for just a moment to

611
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:55.480
<v Speaker 2>and refresh my memory. The preamble of that great seventeen

612
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:58.720
<v Speaker 2>eighty constitution has the phrase that goes something like a

613
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:03.200
<v Speaker 2>frequent recurrence to funda mental principles is necessary for good government,

614
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:05.480
<v Speaker 2>to survival of republic, something like that.

615
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:08.319
<v Speaker 5>That's the declaration of rights, I think, and that's actually

616
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:10.000
<v Speaker 5>in other constitutions as well.

617
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Right, they all believe that was fun.

618
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:15.440
<v Speaker 5>You have to recur to fundamental principles right in order

619
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:20.400
<v Speaker 5>to sustain the republic amid changing times. And they believe

620
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.839
<v Speaker 5>there were principles. As Licoln said, there are such things

621
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:26.400
<v Speaker 5>as truth applical to all men at all times, something

622
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:30.759
<v Speaker 5>that most many modern historians have trouble with because it's

623
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:33.480
<v Speaker 5>by definition antihistorical. To say there are certain things that

624
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:36.720
<v Speaker 5>are simply true about men across the ages.

625
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, Adams was often called the first conservative. I think

626
00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:46.359
<v Speaker 2>you noticed note that in one of your writings. And

627
00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:49.880
<v Speaker 2>what else remind me was he at the Philadelphia Convention

628
00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:51.799
<v Speaker 2>for the Constitution seventeen eighty seven.

629
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.880
<v Speaker 1>He and Jefferson are both in Europe, both of are

630
00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:55.480
<v Speaker 1>You're okay?

631
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:55.680
<v Speaker 3>Right?

632
00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:59.359
<v Speaker 5>Adams was our first minister to Great Britain and Jefferson

633
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:00.960
<v Speaker 5>was in in Paris.

634
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Right, So thought experiment if Adams, sorry, if Adams and

635
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.079
<v Speaker 2>or Jefferson had been in Philadelphia in seventeen eighty seven,

636
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:13.079
<v Speaker 2>do you think they would have had a major influence

637
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:13.559
<v Speaker 2>on things?

638
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:16.319
<v Speaker 1>It may not come out so well.

639
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:20.200
<v Speaker 5>These strong personalities may may have prevented some of the

640
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.480
<v Speaker 5>compromises that were necessary.

641
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:25.680
<v Speaker 2>All right, Well, one of Wood's arguments about Adams is

642
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:28.880
<v Speaker 2>he had this aristocratic view of a mixed republic where

643
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.359
<v Speaker 2>things like the Senate and the Presidency were supposed to

644
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:35.079
<v Speaker 2>reflect you know, sort of aristocratic formal class elements that

645
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:39.160
<v Speaker 2>you saw in Britain. Right, Whereas I think our federalists,

646
00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:42.079
<v Speaker 2>if I can use that term, thought more of the

647
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:44.279
<v Speaker 2>sovereignty based on the people and really believed in the

648
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.000
<v Speaker 2>idea of equality. Is that, I know it's very crude,

649
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:49.160
<v Speaker 2>but is that I'm on the right track, or help

650
00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:49.519
<v Speaker 2>us out.

651
00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:54.920
<v Speaker 5>That's what's so complicated, because in Creation the American Republic,

652
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.039
<v Speaker 5>Adams might be the guy who quotes for anyone else,

653
00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:59.279
<v Speaker 5>and that might be where the chapter comes from because

654
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:03.519
<v Speaker 5>he doesn't quite get Adams he actually literally is as

655
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.759
<v Speaker 5>far as does not mention the ratification of the Massachusetts

656
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:10.000
<v Speaker 5>Constitution by the people in seventy eighty. He mentioned seventy

657
00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:13.320
<v Speaker 5>eight they rejected constitution because it was not created by

658
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.519
<v Speaker 5>a separate convention, but he doesn't mention they ratified. Therefore,

659
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:20.119
<v Speaker 5>popular ratification and the application of that that the people

660
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.360
<v Speaker 5>are ultimately in charge can be associated with the Federal

661
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.119
<v Speaker 5>Constitution as a repudiation of something that came before it.

662
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:28.719
<v Speaker 5>I don't think that's an accurate account of atoms.

663
00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:30.599
<v Speaker 1>I mean, he goes, he supports declaration.

664
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.719
<v Speaker 5>His ideas are there, and it's the same sentence in

665
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:38.320
<v Speaker 5>which are first our rights from our creator and including

666
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:41.840
<v Speaker 5>the right to governed by consent to the government, and

667
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:43.719
<v Speaker 5>we change our governments when we don't like it.

668
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:44.679
<v Speaker 1>That's all one.

669
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.639
<v Speaker 5>Thought, right, and Adams is very much on board with that.

670
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.880
<v Speaker 5>The question then is about inequality. There is going to

671
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.719
<v Speaker 5>be an elite. Every society has some people with more authority,

672
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:59.079
<v Speaker 5>more power than others. How do you reconcile that with

673
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:04.159
<v Speaker 5>republican government. That's the challenge. Wood wants to portray Adams

674
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:08.199
<v Speaker 5>as an old having mora old fashioned idea of aristocracy

675
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:11.000
<v Speaker 5>in general, which is kind of how John Taylor Caroline character.

676
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:15.920
<v Speaker 5>I don't think correctly. Adams simply say it's empirical fact.

677
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 5>They are going to be people with power for reasons

678
00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:20.880
<v Speaker 5>you wouldn't choose, such as having a famous father, or

679
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.559
<v Speaker 5>being tall or good looking. These factors get people ahead.

680
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:25.639
<v Speaker 5>It's just the way the world is.

681
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay. I was typing a note here to Lucretia, but

682
00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:34.320
<v Speaker 2>I'll ask, because I couldn't finish. Was it Adams or Jefferson?

683
00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.280
<v Speaker 2>I think was Jefferson in their exchange of letters who

684
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:42.159
<v Speaker 2>talked about the natural aristoi? Was that they both do?

685
00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:45.639
<v Speaker 1>They both they disagree about their meaning. They use the

686
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:47.360
<v Speaker 1>word they mean different, something different by it.

687
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:51.280
<v Speaker 5>Jefferson wants to call the You know, the natural aristocracy

688
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 5>is the wise and good. It's from nature by birth.

689
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:55.400
<v Speaker 5>You actually read them closely. It's kind of problematic.

690
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:56.559
<v Speaker 2>He says.

691
00:35:56.599 --> 00:35:59.519
<v Speaker 5>Fortunately people don't read as they ought to, like we

692
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.559
<v Speaker 5>read our russ. Otherwise you'd have a genetic arista. And

693
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:06.320
<v Speaker 5>Jefferson says that in that letter Atams is describing from

694
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:10.360
<v Speaker 5>the perspective of empirical science, there will be this group

695
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:13.119
<v Speaker 5>by nature, in the vulgar sense of nature, There's going

696
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:15.599
<v Speaker 5>to be a group that rises for reasons good and bad,

697
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.920
<v Speaker 5>that will have an overage of power and the challenges

698
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.559
<v Speaker 5>to help them use their talentes can be genuine ability

699
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.760
<v Speaker 5>to do things and also just their ability to get

700
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:28.360
<v Speaker 5>ahead to serve the public. And that's why you know

701
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:31.239
<v Speaker 5>checks and balances are actually not in the federal spapers

702
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:31.719
<v Speaker 5>that phrase.

703
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:35.599
<v Speaker 1>It's very much all over atoms work on the constitution.

704
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.519
<v Speaker 4>Right, So in order to say a should I put

705
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:45.159
<v Speaker 4>this in order to preserve the political impact of the

706
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:51.239
<v Speaker 4>idea of human equality, you have to deny the inequalities

707
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:55.199
<v Speaker 4>that are manifest in nature and that actually make representative

708
00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:58.679
<v Speaker 4>government possible. If that makes sense, I mean, who is

709
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:02.599
<v Speaker 4>it this as if if the major head and fit mankind,

710
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.199
<v Speaker 4>it's Jefferson, it says, with these natural aerostoys who could

711
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.079
<v Speaker 4>actually help govern the people. The difference is what you

712
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:15.480
<v Speaker 4>don't want then as a hereditary aristocracy, because it's not

713
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:22.239
<v Speaker 4>clear that those important characteristics are always genetically transferred number one,

714
00:37:23.079 --> 00:37:26.239
<v Speaker 4>and then you have no longer consent being the reason

715
00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:30.360
<v Speaker 4>why these people are ruling over us. And Jefferson makes it,

716
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:33.360
<v Speaker 4>I think, really clear that the whole purpose of education

717
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:38.559
<v Speaker 4>is twofold. It's to make sure that you pull the

718
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:41.960
<v Speaker 4>natural Errstoy out of the general population, where he seems

719
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:43.920
<v Speaker 4>to intimate they come in the poor as well as

720
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:46.840
<v Speaker 4>the rich. You know, that kind of thing, but also

721
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:51.400
<v Speaker 4>to educate the people well enough to recognize the characteristics

722
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:57.119
<v Speaker 4>of those people who are by nature not destined to rule,

723
00:37:57.199 --> 00:38:00.679
<v Speaker 4>but better fit to rule if they're chosen to do so.

724
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:06.280
<v Speaker 5>Is that remember is the creator would be a bundling

725
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.599
<v Speaker 5>artist if he had not created a sort of people

726
00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:15.960
<v Speaker 5>who will be fitted to rule society. And Jefferson thinks

727
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 5>you can train the people sufficiently well so they will

728
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:21.039
<v Speaker 5>recognize that on a regular basis.

729
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:23.280
<v Speaker 1>Adams is more skeptical.

730
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:26.039
<v Speaker 5>They'll have their heads turned as often as not by

731
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.320
<v Speaker 5>the wrong sort of thing, and therefore the checks and

732
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:30.559
<v Speaker 5>balances become more important.

733
00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:35.079
<v Speaker 1>It's just extent something through that.

734
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:38.079
<v Speaker 5>What's interesting if you think about how in Madison my

735
00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:40.239
<v Speaker 5>riad of Madison is not the common whether I think

736
00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:44.239
<v Speaker 5>it's correct, I think the extent is fear is primary

737
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:47.840
<v Speaker 5>for Madison. Remember checks and balances the term, but that's

738
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:51.960
<v Speaker 5>an auxiliary precaution. And what's primaries a reliance on the people.

739
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:54.039
<v Speaker 5>But he says the reliance of people doesn't work in

740
00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:56.760
<v Speaker 5>a small republic. It works in a larger republic because

741
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:59.360
<v Speaker 5>then you're more likely to have the proper characters and

742
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:03.519
<v Speaker 5>they're more likely to be recognized. There's some truth to that,

743
00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:06.239
<v Speaker 5>but up to a point, and then it can you

744
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:10.000
<v Speaker 5>can be very conspicuous for the wrong things, as as

745
00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:13.360
<v Speaker 5>we know from from from history over and over again.

746
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:16.880
<v Speaker 4>Is it unfair though, to say that that You can't

747
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:21.159
<v Speaker 4>blame Madison or Jefferson for having that view in so far,

748
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:23.559
<v Speaker 4>and you have to look at John Adams as being

749
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:28.559
<v Speaker 4>somewhat correct, because we have in fact failed generation after

750
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.960
<v Speaker 4>generation to give them the kind of civic education. Sorry,

751
00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:33.320
<v Speaker 4>you hate to use that term because they know you

752
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.639
<v Speaker 4>hate it, Steve and everything. It implies, no, because you say,

753
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:40.039
<v Speaker 4>I don't want to get into the whole debate about civics, education,

754
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:48.679
<v Speaker 4>I mean genuinely education to teach citizens to be good citizens.

755
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:52.559
<v Speaker 4>And part of that, of course, is to recognize demagoguery

756
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:55.880
<v Speaker 4>and those who will flatter them and so forth. And

757
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:58.679
<v Speaker 4>we've done a excuse the expression, a piss poor job

758
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:02.800
<v Speaker 4>of educating generation after generation of Americans to recognize what

759
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:06.639
<v Speaker 4>is in their best interest in terms of being self governed.

760
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:09.679
<v Speaker 4>But I don't think it had to be that way.

761
00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:13.000
<v Speaker 4>I mean, you can look at what's happening in public

762
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:16.880
<v Speaker 4>education now and over the last say forty years, and

763
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:20.480
<v Speaker 4>it's just, I mean, it's spine chillingly evil what they

764
00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:23.639
<v Speaker 4>do to children in schools now, and it's certainly not

765
00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:25.639
<v Speaker 4>teaching them to love their country and to be on

766
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.639
<v Speaker 4>the lookout for tyrants what Jefferson wanted out of public education,

767
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:32.480
<v Speaker 4>if you'll recall basically.

768
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:34.920
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, we have to accept there is a category tyrant,

769
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.880
<v Speaker 5>and you can recognize it across time and know what

770
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:43.159
<v Speaker 5>it is. And there is a bias in modern education

771
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:46.599
<v Speaker 5>to deny there are such categories that, oh, that's just

772
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:49.639
<v Speaker 5>a prejudice, and then you back ended in and say, oh, well,

773
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:52.199
<v Speaker 5>we kind of recognize that anyway, But we're uncomfortable with

774
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:55.800
<v Speaker 5>starting with this is something that exists across time in

775
00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:58.320
<v Speaker 5>many governments, and it has certain characteristics, and therefore we

776
00:40:58.360 --> 00:41:00.320
<v Speaker 5>correctize it. This is not the way the modern story

777
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:03.920
<v Speaker 5>and has been trained since we created the modern history

778
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:07.400
<v Speaker 5>fashion of the nineteenth century. That's our biases against thinking

779
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:08.440
<v Speaker 5>there are such things.

780
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but it's a kind of funny contrast because on

781
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:15.920
<v Speaker 4>the one hand, they would deny that these well trained

782
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:19.760
<v Speaker 4>elites would do anything but use their power for the

783
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:25.599
<v Speaker 4>public good. At the same time, they also treat these

784
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:28.079
<v Speaker 4>elites as if they are in fact deserving of that

785
00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:31.679
<v Speaker 4>power over the rest of us, poor slobs who are

786
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:36.360
<v Speaker 4>incapable of really ruling ourselves. And so they do believe

787
00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:38.840
<v Speaker 4>in tyrants. They just believe that there's nothing wrong with

788
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:41.280
<v Speaker 4>the tyrants as long as they're the right kind of times.

789
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:46.840
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, discussing Adams long it was I remember what exactly was.

790
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:50.320
<v Speaker 5>I did a liberty fund and afterwards me and the

791
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:52.920
<v Speaker 5>other recent PhDs Adam Smith camp and talking to a

792
00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:56.280
<v Speaker 5>hardcore rational libertarian, I use the phrase, well, Adams sinks

793
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:59.119
<v Speaker 5>people are irrational in predictable ways, and that phrase has

794
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:02.280
<v Speaker 5>since become very well because of cast unsteamate your tailor's work.

795
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.519
<v Speaker 5>But Adams use it more broadly. Who has included the

796
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:10.960
<v Speaker 5>set of people who are rational in predictable ways social scientists, bureaucrats, right,

797
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:14.599
<v Speaker 5>And that's precisely they want exemptance wit checks and balances.

798
00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:18.199
<v Speaker 5>Don't trust anybody to be judging their own case. And

799
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.480
<v Speaker 5>all people will be tempted enough of the time. Maybe

800
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:23.440
<v Speaker 5>not the first year, but you're five to six seven,

801
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:27.519
<v Speaker 5>it gets worse to push things more and more. That's

802
00:42:27.639 --> 00:42:31.559
<v Speaker 5>the problem with the modern administrative state. The checks and balances,

803
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:35.719
<v Speaker 5>at least in adams view, are an exercise in moderating souls.

804
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.960
<v Speaker 5>They keep you from going to excess because somebody's in

805
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.280
<v Speaker 5>your way, and that might be necessary over time for

806
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:45.000
<v Speaker 5>most of the people.

807
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:45.719
<v Speaker 1>Most of the time.

808
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Well let's do this, yeah, please, yep, or we leave.

809
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:55.119
<v Speaker 3>So two questions. So first, Richard, are you saying that

810
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:59.599
<v Speaker 3>you disagree with Wood's view of Adams where he thinks

811
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.719
<v Speaker 3>of this separation of powers as a checks and balances

812
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:08.199
<v Speaker 3>system that's determined by social class. So that's what Wood says.

813
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:11.760
<v Speaker 3>He says, you know, I think he uses atoms in

814
00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:15.159
<v Speaker 3>my view to show how different the new Constitution was,

815
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:21.079
<v Speaker 3>because Adams's defense was that American constitution. State constitutions are

816
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.719
<v Speaker 3>so good because they kind of replicate a checks and

817
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.280
<v Speaker 3>bounces where different classes of society check each other. And

818
00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:31.480
<v Speaker 3>that's not the Constitution's method, right, The constitution method is

819
00:43:32.119 --> 00:43:35.199
<v Speaker 3>functional and there's no social c So are you saying

820
00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:38.840
<v Speaker 3>that you think Wood's wrong in the way he read Adams,

821
00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:43.800
<v Speaker 3>and then that Adams's view is closer to we might

822
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:46.840
<v Speaker 3>think of as the American view of separation of powers.

823
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:48.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, there are two things.

824
00:43:48.679 --> 00:43:52.599
<v Speaker 5>One of the separation of powers the three branches legislate, executive, judicial,

825
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:54.199
<v Speaker 5>and Adam is very much on board with that.

826
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:57.840
<v Speaker 1>Right that was that was the message constitution.

827
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.519
<v Speaker 5>He defends it regularly across The defense does come up

828
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:02.280
<v Speaker 5>that often because it was more or less settled by

829
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:05.000
<v Speaker 5>the time he wrote the defense, but he meant it's

830
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:08.719
<v Speaker 5>mentioned in passing, and he defends it every now and then.

831
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:11.880
<v Speaker 5>It's just not the focus. The question is what's the

832
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:15.159
<v Speaker 5>second house for. There was a lot of push for

833
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.280
<v Speaker 5>a second house, for a single house, because we don't

834
00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:19.920
<v Speaker 5>have an aristocracy, you don't need to have a second house,

835
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:23.639
<v Speaker 5>and Adams saying that doesn't work out that way, because

836
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:26.559
<v Speaker 5>what's going to happen in a single house is you'll

837
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:29.000
<v Speaker 5>have a small cabal that runs it most of the time,

838
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:33.119
<v Speaker 5>and it'll actually be less good for having legislation that

839
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:34.079
<v Speaker 5>is for.

840
00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:36.760
<v Speaker 1>The common good.

841
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:40.760
<v Speaker 5>So Adams thinks the category of person when you have

842
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:43.400
<v Speaker 5>we don't call the Senate the upper house and the Constitution,

843
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:46.519
<v Speaker 5>So why is it those the upper house. There is

844
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:50.400
<v Speaker 5>a natural tendency to see a hierarchy, and there's a

845
00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:52.519
<v Speaker 5>tendency of people when they become talking to about.

846
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Students this way who work in Washington.

847
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:56.760
<v Speaker 5>Yes, people get full of themselves when they become senators

848
00:44:56.800 --> 00:45:00.480
<v Speaker 5>of or it happens off I mean as kygre been too.

849
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:03.039
<v Speaker 1>But you see a difference in personality in the in.

850
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.320
<v Speaker 5>The two chambers, and Adams is anticipating that and thought

851
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:07.719
<v Speaker 5>that would serve the public good.

852
00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:10.719
<v Speaker 1>That's kind of what he means by having in lead.

853
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:12.960
<v Speaker 5>It's and in some of the many cases will be

854
00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:16.559
<v Speaker 5>people who are either themselves or married into a distinguished family.

855
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.079
<v Speaker 5>And it's still that still happens often enough in the

856
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.360
<v Speaker 5>Senate as well. I think what exaggerates to reach which

857
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:26.239
<v Speaker 5>Adams thinks this is simply a mixed regime. One other point, though,

858
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:29.400
<v Speaker 5>it's very interesting if you look in June.

859
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Fifth and sixth.

860
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:32.440
<v Speaker 5>Dickinson says, yes, you're one house from the people when

861
00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:34.079
<v Speaker 5>you're working toward the connected compromise.

862
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:37.519
<v Speaker 1>But you know we second house. You know, well, we

863
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:39.119
<v Speaker 1>don't have lords, we want that, but.

864
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:42.639
<v Speaker 5>We have states. So he's defend what becomes the connecting

865
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.679
<v Speaker 5>compromise is saying the states can serve as proxies for

866
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:48.840
<v Speaker 5>Oldhams and Baronites. That is, they represent the regions and

867
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:51.800
<v Speaker 5>then the legislature selects someone who represent them. That's the

868
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:55.800
<v Speaker 5>day that Madison writes, Jefferson is in Paris about John

869
00:45:55.800 --> 00:46:01.639
<v Speaker 5>Adams's awful influence in the Convention's.

870
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:01.840
<v Speaker 3>Right about a second question.

871
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:05.199
<v Speaker 2>We can just killed Richard's point quickly with the famous

872
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:08.440
<v Speaker 2>story attributed to various speakers of the House, most recently

873
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:11.679
<v Speaker 2>the Nuke Gingrich who said, oh, our enemy is the Democrats,

874
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:14.280
<v Speaker 2>and Gingridge said, no, no, our enemy is not the Democrats.

875
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Our enemy is the Senate. Right, okay, yeah, well our

876
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:23.840
<v Speaker 2>tip O'Neil said it. See it's been attributed to multiple

877
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:26.719
<v Speaker 2>does sound like, but it does sound like the logic

878
00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Richard is describing about the house. We will have a

879
00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:32.239
<v Speaker 2>different influence on the call of the of a single house.

880
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:34.360
<v Speaker 2>So anyway, John, question two.

881
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.880
<v Speaker 3>So my last question because you guys have you guys

882
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:41.199
<v Speaker 3>have both Philip bustered and old Senate tradition and Menzli

883
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.679
<v Speaker 3>you and Linda with your Philip bustering questions with Richard,

884
00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:48.920
<v Speaker 3>But there's actually something as a historian, because this is

885
00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:52.480
<v Speaker 3>something we got into last episode two, was do you

886
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:57.920
<v Speaker 3>think that there are these eternal truths that you can

887
00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:01.360
<v Speaker 3>draw out from? He says to discussions that they aren't

888
00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:04.119
<v Speaker 3>all talking about the same thing across history, because I

889
00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:08.679
<v Speaker 3>think we're talking about woods speech at AEI, and I

890
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:13.480
<v Speaker 3>was trying to say that, you know, would My sense

891
00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:16.079
<v Speaker 3>of him was a Wood was very critical of the

892
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:19.719
<v Speaker 3>idea that right, that we can interpret what they're saying

893
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:23.280
<v Speaker 3>back then as if it has to do with today's

894
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:26.519
<v Speaker 3>arguments about natural rights and natural law. And a lot

895
00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:28.840
<v Speaker 3>of historians accuse people of being what they were. They

896
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:30.719
<v Speaker 3>call him presentists, right, or they have a lot of

897
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:33.840
<v Speaker 3>different variety of wards to accuse people who try to

898
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:38.000
<v Speaker 3>who make the mistake of thinking they're vocabulary their thoughts

899
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:41.639
<v Speaker 3>from even this recent as seventeen eighty nine really are

900
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:43.960
<v Speaker 3>the same things we're writing and talking about now, and

901
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:47.760
<v Speaker 3>we talk about natural rights and natural law. And that's

902
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:51.000
<v Speaker 3>how I tried to make sense of Wood's speech because

903
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:53.840
<v Speaker 3>would right, he's he is saying in his speech that

904
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:56.840
<v Speaker 3>America should be a credle nation, you know, a nation

905
00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:00.440
<v Speaker 3>built around the Declaration and its principles. Didn't really say

906
00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:02.119
<v Speaker 3>that in his book, right, I mean, I think it's

907
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:04.239
<v Speaker 3>fair to say that was not the argument in his book.

908
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:08.960
<v Speaker 3>And argument is book is that there's this weird conspiracy

909
00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:13.559
<v Speaker 3>theory ish way that the Americans thought about why they

910
00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.360
<v Speaker 3>had to break away from me. And it's very much

911
00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:18.559
<v Speaker 3>you know, as follows right along with our balance arguments too.

912
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.159
<v Speaker 3>But that's that seems to me very typically how historian

913
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:25.239
<v Speaker 3>talks about things, like it's so weird and context dependent

914
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:28.159
<v Speaker 3>and they're not really talking about the same things we are,

915
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:30.039
<v Speaker 3>and we have to put ourselves in their minds and

916
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:33.840
<v Speaker 3>understand why they thought so strangely. But Richard, sometimes when

917
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:36.039
<v Speaker 3>you write, I think you actually do believe that there

918
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:39.519
<v Speaker 3>is this kind of eternal argument that they're talking about

919
00:48:39.559 --> 00:48:40.519
<v Speaker 3>the same things we are.

920
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:43.360
<v Speaker 5>Well, there are a couple of things, and one is,

921
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:46.159
<v Speaker 5>you know, it's interesting what classically would say and historian

922
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.599
<v Speaker 5>can't say what the American regime is he can say

923
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:50.960
<v Speaker 5>what Americans have attended to think it has been.

924
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:55.679
<v Speaker 1>There's no essence in woods spistemology, there's no essence of

925
00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:56.920
<v Speaker 1>a nation. All you have is you know.

926
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:58.599
<v Speaker 5>And he might even say that's just the summary of

927
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:00.800
<v Speaker 5>what we've been. But he's this that I like, it

928
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:03.719
<v Speaker 5>is not a historical opinion. I read the op ed

929
00:49:03.880 --> 00:49:06.039
<v Speaker 5>the piece in the journal. I didn't attend the speech

930
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:09.760
<v Speaker 5>on the full transcripts available, but that's very interesting that

931
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:13.960
<v Speaker 5>maybe he's changed his mind on that though.

932
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:17.719
<v Speaker 1>It's the other thing just on when that chapter.

933
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:20.639
<v Speaker 5>Ends, that Wood was pointed to some truth about Americans

934
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:23.199
<v Speaker 5>we were uncomfortable with, meaning that I think you're saying

935
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:25.639
<v Speaker 5>that there's a communition. But from Adam's perspective, as I

936
00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:27.519
<v Speaker 5>read it, you know, Adams is saying this chap the

937
00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:28.440
<v Speaker 5>chapter is strange.

938
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:29.639
<v Speaker 1>It's unnecessary from a.

939
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:33.280
<v Speaker 5>Literary perspective, because the book closes with that chapter afterwards

940
00:49:33.320 --> 00:49:35.920
<v Speaker 5>about what they'd achieved, and before that you set up

941
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.440
<v Speaker 5>the final chapter what the Constitution did. I think he

942
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:43.159
<v Speaker 5>knows he's missed something, and I think what is missed

943
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:45.159
<v Speaker 5>is Adams has a point of view that he can't

944
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:47.880
<v Speaker 5>quite get his head around because how does an historian

945
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:51.360
<v Speaker 5>who believes everything is contingent give a good account of

946
00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:52.800
<v Speaker 5>somebody who does not believe that?

947
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:54.320
<v Speaker 2>And not only that, As.

948
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:57.920
<v Speaker 5>I read Adams, he's defending that point of view against

949
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:00.840
<v Speaker 5>the new philosophical point of view, which is twenty two

950
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:04.480
<v Speaker 5>human nature being radically fluid. So I think Adams thinks

951
00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:07.519
<v Speaker 5>there are classically that would not have been a problem

952
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:10.239
<v Speaker 5>to historians going back to the citizens. It's the modern

953
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:14.000
<v Speaker 5>historians who think it's all contextual and there's no up

954
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:14.920
<v Speaker 5>underlying baseline.

955
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:16.840
<v Speaker 1>Give you one. I think I can get away with this.

956
00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:20.320
<v Speaker 5>On this podcast, Adams is reading I can't remember who it's,

957
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:23.760
<v Speaker 5>you know, a classic account about biblical stuff when the

958
00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:27.679
<v Speaker 5>critics late seventeenth century about pages and pages of how

959
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:31.280
<v Speaker 5>they all debate did Adam and Eve get together in

960
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:33.480
<v Speaker 5>the garden? And he's saying, Adams, this is crazy. He

961
00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:36.559
<v Speaker 5>writes to his margin, had Eve bubby's b u b

962
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.360
<v Speaker 5>b I ees exclamation point exclamation. He's a guy, this

963
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:42.840
<v Speaker 5>is a cross, This is across the ages, right.

964
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:43.760
<v Speaker 1>What do you think he did?

965
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:47.760
<v Speaker 5>Your point is that's how guys are right, and that's

966
00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:51.639
<v Speaker 5>a truth. And you're met with women men around power,

967
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:55.800
<v Speaker 5>these things have patterns and you can see them happening,

968
00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:56.840
<v Speaker 5>and you can't.

969
00:50:56.920 --> 00:50:58.719
<v Speaker 1>Rather you can't. There's certain things are never going to

970
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:00.239
<v Speaker 1>work when you try to make a government.

971
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:04.719
<v Speaker 5>Do that, because we humans simply ain't gonna ain't going

972
00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:07.519
<v Speaker 5>to cooperate with what your vision is. So I think

973
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:12.599
<v Speaker 5>there's that underlying element that the modern historian has trouble

974
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:16.079
<v Speaker 5>with because we know in the backside that yeah, okay,

975
00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:17.639
<v Speaker 5>some things don't quite work out.

976
00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:21.559
<v Speaker 1>But before the modern age, historians.

977
00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:23.840
<v Speaker 5>More comfortable, and maybe it often pushed too far with

978
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:26.159
<v Speaker 5>saying that you know, something they kind of had it

979
00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:28.960
<v Speaker 5>was not unreasonable to anticipate, Okay, this is why this

980
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:30.719
<v Speaker 5>is gonna work. This is why that's gonna work, not

981
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:35.880
<v Speaker 5>gonna work, based on the constants in what human beings

982
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:36.239
<v Speaker 5>are like.

983
00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, that was really good, Richard. That was actually was

984
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:40.880
<v Speaker 2>trying to get out of you my opening question that

985
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:43.559
<v Speaker 2>I kind of mangled here here. I think you're honto

986
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:45.239
<v Speaker 2>something about Wood didn't know what to do with Adams.

987
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Here's two quick quotes from Wood. First, one, Adams deserves

988
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.440
<v Speaker 2>to be regarded as a major founder, so he clearly

989
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:55.599
<v Speaker 2>respects adams profound grasp of constitutionalism. But then Two sentences later,

990
00:51:55.639 --> 00:52:00.360
<v Speaker 2>he says, for all his intense involvement in constitutionalism, and

991
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:03.559
<v Speaker 2>for all his insight into his own and America's character,

992
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:08.199
<v Speaker 2>Adams never really comprehended what was happening to the fundamentals

993
00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:12.199
<v Speaker 2>of American political thought in the years after seventeen seventy six.

994
00:52:13.159 --> 00:52:15.679
<v Speaker 2>Another words, he's saying, Adams didn't figure out the civic

995
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:18.800
<v Speaker 2>republican tradition the way I did. That's one, maybe not

996
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:21.719
<v Speaker 2>an uncharitable way of reading it, but I've just thought

997
00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:23.559
<v Speaker 2>that was odd. Well.

998
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:26.039
<v Speaker 5>Another way of saying this is Adams didn't think the

999
00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:28.400
<v Speaker 5>fundamentals of political thought can change.

1000
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:31.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, they're not fundamental.

1001
00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:34.079
<v Speaker 2>Then right, all right, let's get out with this because

1002
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:36.920
<v Speaker 2>it's Lucretia Bate. It's your article from ten years ago

1003
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:40.280
<v Speaker 2>called John Adams versus Edmund Burke, which I just think

1004
00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:42.800
<v Speaker 2>is really fun in one particular part. And this is

1005
00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:45.119
<v Speaker 2>debate John Hugh just as much. You have a long

1006
00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:48.199
<v Speaker 2>passage about what Adams thought about prudence, and I'll skip

1007
00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:51.079
<v Speaker 2>over it until your concluding sentence about all that, where

1008
00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:55.079
<v Speaker 2>you say of Adams views prudence divorced from the other

1009
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:58.840
<v Speaker 2>virtues would become a moral pragmatism. In other words, you'd

1010
00:52:58.840 --> 00:52:59.559
<v Speaker 2>become John Yu.

1011
00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:02.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, what's wrong with that?

1012
00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:07.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm skipped over a lot now. Was just a gratuit

1013
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:08.559
<v Speaker 2>to slap at you, John, that's are you.

1014
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:10.039
<v Speaker 1>Saying, John isn't courageous.

1015
00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:14.039
<v Speaker 3>I don't wrong with AMORL pragmatism is because you guys

1016
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:16.280
<v Speaker 3>don't mean anything when you say prudence. At least it's

1017
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:21.400
<v Speaker 3>AMORL pragmatism to start. Well, all right, I still don't

1018
00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:22.119
<v Speaker 3>get what it is.

1019
00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:24.760
<v Speaker 2>I know that's the whole point to bring.

1020
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:27.239
<v Speaker 3>With you guys think it is. This is kind of mushy.

1021
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:29.800
<v Speaker 3>Do the best thing possible the circumstances.

1022
00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:34.960
<v Speaker 4>I'm not even going to entertain that. I do want to.

1023
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:39.039
<v Speaker 4>I told Richard that my only regret about the boring

1024
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.800
<v Speaker 4>talk about Wood last week when Steve, when you guys

1025
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:48.320
<v Speaker 4>both came back with well, he's the most consequential intellectual

1026
00:53:48.440 --> 00:53:50.960
<v Speaker 4>historian out there, blah blah blah. I said, that's why

1027
00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:55.679
<v Speaker 4>history is a dying field. And what I wanted to say,

1028
00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:58.519
<v Speaker 4>but you got you jumped in immediately, Steve and came

1029
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:00.519
<v Speaker 4>back with something. And so what I did get to

1030
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:04.679
<v Speaker 4>say was if there were more historians like Richard it

1031
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:10.880
<v Speaker 4>wouldn't be a dying field.

1032
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:14.239
<v Speaker 3>Dump on him. Balon and Wood made ideological history cool again.

1033
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:17.480
<v Speaker 3>I mean this is you guys should like you, guys.

1034
00:54:17.559 --> 00:54:18.559
<v Speaker 2>I love you guys.

1035
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:22.639
<v Speaker 3>Always attack your allies, you always kfe your allies and

1036
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:25.039
<v Speaker 3>respect your enemies. I don't understand you people.

1037
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:28.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's the very very kind kind of you, Lucretia.

1038
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:31.760
<v Speaker 5>But I I think of what is cultural story and

1039
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:33.480
<v Speaker 5>who writes about thoughts?

1040
00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:38.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't think he really writes about ideas fair enough.

1041
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:40.559
<v Speaker 3>Not the way you guys do. But he's an intellectual

1042
00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:43.639
<v Speaker 3>history I mean considerable by the way.

1043
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:46.400
<v Speaker 1>He hasn't done any He did a collection of essays.

1044
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:51.079
<v Speaker 5>I don't think James cebrity those are not books in

1045
00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:51.960
<v Speaker 5>intellectual history.

1046
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:54.480
<v Speaker 1>His dissertation and his first.

1047
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:57.400
<v Speaker 5>Book is the only one that's in that that would

1048
00:54:57.400 --> 00:54:58.000
<v Speaker 5>be in that field.

1049
00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:01.199
<v Speaker 4>I think of James mc pearson is something of a

1050
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:04.719
<v Speaker 4>cultural historian too. I liked I like reading his history.

1051
00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:07.760
<v Speaker 4>I like the the culture and all the economics and

1052
00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:12.000
<v Speaker 4>all those other things. I don't want to get ideas

1053
00:55:12.039 --> 00:55:15.559
<v Speaker 4>from him. I don't see I don't see agendas or

1054
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:19.039
<v Speaker 4>ideas or things like that in there. That's okay. It's

1055
00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:21.159
<v Speaker 4>when they get it wrong. That's the problem.

1056
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:25.280
<v Speaker 2>Ah, like like like Gary Will's book on the Gettysburg

1057
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Address exactly.

1058
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:29.639
<v Speaker 3>But you guys, the thing that Balin and Wood I

1059
00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:32.840
<v Speaker 3>think that they did. And it's just a it's hard,

1060
00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:35.719
<v Speaker 3>I think, to put ourselves back in what history history

1061
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:38.840
<v Speaker 3>of the Founding was like back then was they think

1062
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:43.039
<v Speaker 3>ideas motivate why people act? Right, that's like, that's like

1063
00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:45.000
<v Speaker 3>seems like crazy back then, right, they thought it was

1064
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:48.320
<v Speaker 3>all Marxist, you know, materialism, and this is I think

1065
00:55:48.360 --> 00:55:50.760
<v Speaker 3>this is what launched. I think, even though we debate

1066
00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:53.920
<v Speaker 3>and just maybe very disagreed with what they their conclusions,

1067
00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:57.719
<v Speaker 3>but the folks they think ideas motivated people. That's what

1068
00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:01.679
<v Speaker 3>you guys believe the idea. I don't think you have

1069
00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:04.079
<v Speaker 3>about what the ideas are.

1070
00:56:04.719 --> 00:56:08.320
<v Speaker 5>I think Baialance, chapter conspiracy, suggusted. The idea is basically

1071
00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:10.440
<v Speaker 5>shaped in ways they couldn't possibly understand.

1072
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:11.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's.

1073
00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:14.039
<v Speaker 5>Saying the ideas moved them, and they were moved by

1074
00:56:14.119 --> 00:56:16.119
<v Speaker 5>essentially on the forces of the background.

1075
00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:17.119
<v Speaker 1>And I'm pushing it too much.

1076
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:20.599
<v Speaker 5>Bailon is more moderate than would when you get down

1077
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:22.719
<v Speaker 5>to this and you start looking at the theory, especially

1078
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:23.719
<v Speaker 5>as theoretical writings.

1079
00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:25.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, I mean, oh, sorry, Richard, I mean well,

1080
00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:27.840
<v Speaker 2>you know you and I were together at that conference

1081
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:30.519
<v Speaker 2>on John Patrick Diggins with last year at City College

1082
00:56:30.519 --> 00:56:32.960
<v Speaker 2>in New York, and Diggens, who is a liberal, kind

1083
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:35.519
<v Speaker 2>of a proto se of artist Lessenger. He went after

1084
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Balin and Wood really hard, and his critique was not

1085
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:42.519
<v Speaker 2>that their accounts of the ideas were incorrect or inaccurate,

1086
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:45.760
<v Speaker 2>but that their premise is that they're idiot, that it's

1087
00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:49.440
<v Speaker 2>the ideologies were a result of sub rational forces that

1088
00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:51.480
<v Speaker 2>at the bottom of the day, they weren't really based

1089
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:55.719
<v Speaker 2>on rational idea formation, rational philosophy. And they're not explicit

1090
00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:57.920
<v Speaker 2>about that because they're not well enough trained to get

1091
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:02.199
<v Speaker 2>at that fundamental problem. But sorry, Richard, will give you

1092
00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the last word here.

1093
00:57:03.639 --> 00:57:05.679
<v Speaker 3>They're not What do you mean when they're not well enough?

1094
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:09.840
<v Speaker 3>These guys are amateurs. What are you talking about? Did

1095
00:57:09.880 --> 00:57:12.239
<v Speaker 3>you just say would and bail And are inadequately trained

1096
00:57:12.280 --> 00:57:15.320
<v Speaker 3>to write about ideas? And like, was it only Straussians

1097
00:57:15.320 --> 00:57:17.880
<v Speaker 3>can write about history because they're adequately Come on, you

1098
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:18.519
<v Speaker 3>don't believe that.

1099
00:57:18.719 --> 00:57:20.360
<v Speaker 2>I didn't. I didn't say the last part, but the

1100
00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:22.320
<v Speaker 2>first part. The answer is yes, but Richard will give

1101
00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:27.440
<v Speaker 2>me the last word implication. Well, okay, not really, because

1102
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:30.519
<v Speaker 2>they're competing schools with Straussians like Quentin Skinner in those

1103
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:35.840
<v Speaker 2>network way off, way off the beam. Richard, Well, do

1104
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:36.519
<v Speaker 2>this one.

1105
00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:38.280
<v Speaker 5>I think, as I've been saying, the I think the

1106
00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:41.280
<v Speaker 5>difference between once we the history created the creation.

1107
00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Of history PhD.

1108
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:45.320
<v Speaker 5>Which is the model of the history on the sciences,

1109
00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:49.679
<v Speaker 5>and hence this cumulative knowledge, and you try to the

1110
00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:53.159
<v Speaker 5>old modern story idea of his historiography, not having read

1111
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:55.880
<v Speaker 5>other people, but that you have a cumulative field building

1112
00:57:55.880 --> 00:57:56.679
<v Speaker 5>a better idea.

1113
00:57:56.760 --> 00:57:58.239
<v Speaker 1>It fundamentally pushes you.

1114
00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:02.559
<v Speaker 5>Towards towards culture. The second thing is Tokevils chapter on

1115
00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:06.599
<v Speaker 5>histories of Democratic ages. In aristocratic ages, we exaggerate the

1116
00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:10.280
<v Speaker 5>importance of individuals. In democratic ages, we basically make its

1117
00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:12.599
<v Speaker 5>large cultural forces who were uncomfortable with the notion that

1118
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:14.719
<v Speaker 5>some people are more significant historically than others.

1119
00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:16.960
<v Speaker 1>I think that's one of our problems.

1120
00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:19.320
<v Speaker 5>And but there are you know, someone like Alan Wellso

1121
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:23.400
<v Speaker 5>is terrific on Lincoln and other things. There are historians

1122
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:26.400
<v Speaker 5>out there I think that who are doing do very

1123
00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:31.079
<v Speaker 5>good work. There is a whole contrary tradition. I can

1124
00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:33.320
<v Speaker 5>give you a history of that, but I don't think

1125
00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:35.920
<v Speaker 5>we have time for it. No one wants to listen

1126
00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:38.440
<v Speaker 5>to it. The history of history can be rather boring.

1127
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:44.320
<v Speaker 5>But I do think that one of the keys the

1128
00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:47.400
<v Speaker 5>Founding is there is a debate in the Founding about

1129
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:50.320
<v Speaker 5>these ideas, and somebody's in the space between Adams and

1130
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:56.480
<v Speaker 5>Jefferson about the depth of human nature, how much can

1131
00:58:56.559 --> 00:59:03.400
<v Speaker 5>be changed? And ERNs Kasher, the great German philosopher, story

1132
00:59:03.400 --> 00:59:06.320
<v Speaker 5>and who happened? I think overstood over over saw Leos

1133
00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:09.199
<v Speaker 5>Forrausi's dissertation, not as menture in the full sense, but

1134
00:59:09.239 --> 00:59:13.199
<v Speaker 5>he writes in his Philosophy Enlightenment that the odyssey becomes

1135
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:16.519
<v Speaker 5>a political problem in the In the Enlightenment, the.

1136
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:19.119
<v Speaker 1>Problem of evil is no longer. How did God create

1137
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:19.800
<v Speaker 1>such a world?

1138
00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:23.760
<v Speaker 5>It's okay if we believe in progress through reason, how

1139
00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:26.719
<v Speaker 5>do we account for the bloody pages of history? Something

1140
00:59:26.800 --> 00:59:29.199
<v Speaker 5>must be wrong. The Atoms view is there's something. We

1141
00:59:29.239 --> 00:59:31.039
<v Speaker 5>have the angel on one shoulder, the devil on the other,

1142
00:59:31.159 --> 00:59:34.119
<v Speaker 5>to use amendment, to use the one metaphor, and that's

1143
00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:39.039
<v Speaker 5>not changing, and that puts a radical limit on progress,

1144
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:42.400
<v Speaker 5>which makes the modern very uncomfortable.

1145
00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:45.039
<v Speaker 4>Because which is why I'm sorry. You said you could

1146
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:46.960
<v Speaker 4>have the last word, but can I have the addendum,

1147
00:59:47.239 --> 00:59:51.039
<v Speaker 4>which is that that is why that the radical progressive

1148
00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:55.320
<v Speaker 4>project is all about making sure that that is entirely destroyed,

1149
00:59:55.800 --> 00:59:58.840
<v Speaker 4>that that even the notion that there's an angel and

1150
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:02.360
<v Speaker 4>a devil must go way, because both of them place

1151
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:06.199
<v Speaker 4>limitations upon what is possible. And so if you want

1152
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:10.000
<v Speaker 4>to deny human nature, you we are so far down

1153
01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:14.800
<v Speaker 4>that progressive road that we now deny human nature by

1154
01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:17.360
<v Speaker 4>saying that it doesn't matter if you're a man or

1155
01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:20.480
<v Speaker 4>a woman, that that's your choice, you choose your identity.

1156
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:22.519
<v Speaker 4>We don't even call it sex anymore. We call it

1157
01:00:22.599 --> 01:00:27.559
<v Speaker 4>a stupid language term gender instead of sex. It's not

1158
01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:30.159
<v Speaker 4>you don't have a gender, that's if you're a here

1159
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:34.079
<v Speaker 4>or a she. Right, But okay, or we you know,

1160
01:00:34.119 --> 01:00:36.199
<v Speaker 4>we can be furries. We don't have to be human

1161
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:39.559
<v Speaker 4>beings anymore. We can be animals and we can have

1162
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:43.599
<v Speaker 4>weird sex as weird animals and there's nothing wrong with that.

1163
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:46.000
<v Speaker 3>Or we can be I'm learning so much right now

1164
01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:47.280
<v Speaker 3>that I never knew before.

1165
01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:50.079
<v Speaker 1>There is there, well, there there are two things, and.

1166
01:00:51.800 --> 01:00:56.400
<v Speaker 5>One is right to borrow from Madison in the modern

1167
01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:59.480
<v Speaker 5>sexuality the l B, G, T, Q, W X, Y, Z,

1168
01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:07.199
<v Speaker 5>et cetera. We have extended the queery right. The other

1169
01:01:07.239 --> 01:01:11.880
<v Speaker 5>thing to mone of a serious point, that is, there

1170
01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:16.039
<v Speaker 5>was a fine line that separates idealism from misanthropy. That is,

1171
01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:18.599
<v Speaker 5>if what you want is it compative that human beings

1172
01:01:18.599 --> 01:01:22.559
<v Speaker 5>are like, you actually don't like human beings, and that

1173
01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:24.960
<v Speaker 5>might explain some of the violence of bloodshed we've seen

1174
01:01:26.199 --> 01:01:28.280
<v Speaker 5>by leftist regimes over the years.

1175
01:01:29.320 --> 01:01:33.519
<v Speaker 4>Last week there was the final report out of HHS

1176
01:01:33.559 --> 01:01:39.880
<v Speaker 4>about whether or not gender affirming God what a horrible phrase.

1177
01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:46.960
<v Speaker 4>Gender affirming surgeries and treatments for children is actually a

1178
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:52.679
<v Speaker 4>salutary thing. And HHS pulled together some real experts, did

1179
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:57.400
<v Speaker 4>a number of very solid evidence based scientific studies, released

1180
01:01:57.440 --> 01:02:01.519
<v Speaker 4>the draft, and lo and behold, all of the American

1181
01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:05.199
<v Speaker 4>Psychiatric Association, the American Pediatric Assosia, I don't remember all

1182
01:02:05.239 --> 01:02:07.800
<v Speaker 4>of them. All of them came out and denounced it.

1183
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:12.559
<v Speaker 4>So the AHHS came back and said, okay, find your

1184
01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:15.519
<v Speaker 4>go ahead and you know, pick this apart. Tell us

1185
01:02:15.559 --> 01:02:17.719
<v Speaker 4>what's wrong with our methodology, tell us what's wrong with

1186
01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:18.599
<v Speaker 4>our research studies?

1187
01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:19.280
<v Speaker 1>Et cetera, et cetera.

1188
01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:22.679
<v Speaker 4>They could not do it, they would not do it,

1189
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:26.119
<v Speaker 4>and the ones who did come back had absolutely lame,

1190
01:02:26.280 --> 01:02:30.920
<v Speaker 4>non scientific complaints about things. So on the eighteenth of November,

1191
01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:37.760
<v Speaker 4>the Trump Administration's Health and Human Services published a study

1192
01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:42.440
<v Speaker 4>with the detractors included that, as a matter of fact,

1193
01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:45.360
<v Speaker 4>it's not a good thing for children who might have

1194
01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:49.559
<v Speaker 4>other mental health issues to get surgery that cuts off

1195
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:51.480
<v Speaker 4>their vital parts so that they can pretend to be

1196
01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:55.599
<v Speaker 4>a different sex. What happens all of those people, what

1197
01:02:55.599 --> 01:02:59.079
<v Speaker 4>did you call it? Misanthropy? There's a fine line between.

1198
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:03.880
<v Speaker 1>My ideal misanthropy, and it's.

1199
01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:07.679
<v Speaker 4>Because so much of that is part of the progressive project.

1200
01:03:07.679 --> 01:03:10.920
<v Speaker 4>If we can't remake humans in the imagery, and these

1201
01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:15.360
<v Speaker 4>are children who are victims of these god awful, evil,

1202
01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:18.639
<v Speaker 4>vile adults who want to use them as experiments to

1203
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:22.480
<v Speaker 4>advance the progressive project that destroys human nature. That's my

1204
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:25.719
<v Speaker 4>there's the explanation of the modern world.

1205
01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:30.280
<v Speaker 5>Well if I if I, Well, the problem is, as

1206
01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:32.840
<v Speaker 5>you said, if you give the surgery to a kid,

1207
01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:38.199
<v Speaker 5>they can't really experience pleasure. In other words, their entire

1208
01:03:38.239 --> 01:03:45.000
<v Speaker 5>rest of their life is an anti climax, Richard deserve

1209
01:03:45.079 --> 01:03:46.639
<v Speaker 5>that were.

1210
01:03:46.519 --> 01:03:49.199
<v Speaker 3>He to turn this all into some kind of gender

1211
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:54.960
<v Speaker 3>history discussion, We're.

1212
01:03:53.199 --> 01:03:55.559
<v Speaker 2>Going to let you go, Richard, although we're going to

1213
01:03:55.599 --> 01:03:58.440
<v Speaker 2>get to advertise to listeners that you finally found a

1214
01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:01.480
<v Speaker 2>way to apply the mark gnalia of John Adams to

1215
01:04:01.599 --> 01:04:04.159
<v Speaker 2>Sidney Sweeney. Because it's a rule this podcast we got

1216
01:04:04.159 --> 01:04:06.960
<v Speaker 2>to mention Sidney Sweeney as often as we can. It's because, you.

1217
01:04:06.920 --> 01:04:11.480
<v Speaker 4>Know, anyway, think that someday, I think Steve said this

1218
01:04:11.559 --> 01:04:13.960
<v Speaker 4>that if they ever have to make a movie about me,

1219
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:15.480
<v Speaker 4>that Sidney Sweeney will play me.

1220
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:17.519
<v Speaker 3>That's my dream.

1221
01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:26.320
<v Speaker 2>All right, Richard, we'renna let you go. We'll have me here. Okay,

1222
01:04:26.559 --> 01:04:28.920
<v Speaker 2>you can just log off when you want, Richard. And yeah,

1223
01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:31.079
<v Speaker 2>so we never did lucrease you get to the question

1224
01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:33.519
<v Speaker 2>of his John Adams versus Edmund Burke. But we can

1225
01:04:33.559 --> 01:04:35.559
<v Speaker 2>go back to that because we'll we've got a lot

1226
01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:37.599
<v Speaker 2>to go between now in July four of next year.

1227
01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:40.840
<v Speaker 2>And by the way, Richard's point about a fine line

1228
01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:45.760
<v Speaker 2>between idealism and misanthropy, I think it was Arthur Kessler

1229
01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:47.880
<v Speaker 2>who said the problem with the left is something like

1230
01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:52.480
<v Speaker 2>the revolutionary left is they love humanity. It's individual human

1231
01:04:52.519 --> 01:04:55.360
<v Speaker 2>beings they don't like and you see that in real

1232
01:04:55.400 --> 01:04:56.599
<v Speaker 2>life right oftentimes.

1233
01:04:57.320 --> 01:04:59.800
<v Speaker 4>Although I'm not even sure I buy that anymore. St

1234
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:02.760
<v Speaker 4>I think it was probably true for a while. But

1235
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.800
<v Speaker 4>what kind of what kind of evil Frankenstein monster wants

1236
01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:11.880
<v Speaker 4>to do that kind of surgery on children and celebrates it.

1237
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:13.960
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's just sorry.

1238
01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:15.639
<v Speaker 2>Well I have a field theory for that, but we

1239
01:05:15.679 --> 01:05:18.639
<v Speaker 2>are out of time, and so I have we.

1240
01:05:19.199 --> 01:05:21.239
<v Speaker 4>I don't have a lot because we just had a

1241
01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:23.719
<v Speaker 4>podcast a few days ago, and even the people at

1242
01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:25.880
<v Speaker 4>Babylon Bee have been staying home and hanging out with

1243
01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:26.440
<v Speaker 4>their family.

1244
01:05:26.440 --> 01:05:27.159
<v Speaker 2>But I do have a.

1245
01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:30.880
<v Speaker 4>Few, and I'll make it quick. Chicago, you'll like this one.

1246
01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:35.000
<v Speaker 4>Chicago kicks off holiday season by unveiling festive, red and

1247
01:05:35.039 --> 01:05:43.519
<v Speaker 4>green crime scene tape. Okay, Chicago judge hoping twenty third

1248
01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:50.039
<v Speaker 4>time is the charm for rehabilitating violent criminal. Oh Trump

1249
01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:53.039
<v Speaker 4>reminds Americans to give thanks for him this holiday.

1250
01:05:54.760 --> 01:05:56.639
<v Speaker 3>To get it a second.

1251
01:05:57.880 --> 01:06:01.079
<v Speaker 4>Okay, we talked about last time about the turkeys that

1252
01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:05.239
<v Speaker 4>Trump said weren't truly pardoned because of the auto pen

1253
01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:12.400
<v Speaker 4>when Biden was president. He pardoned by Biden administration four

1254
01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:17.800
<v Speaker 4>Times commits violent turkey murder. And then finally, just because

1255
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:22.039
<v Speaker 4>we're entering the Christmas season, mal Santa prepares for seasonal

1256
01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:24.480
<v Speaker 4>gig by cutting off ankle monitor.

1257
01:06:29.280 --> 01:06:33.360
<v Speaker 2>All right, get us out of here, John, we got ready.

1258
01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:37.639
<v Speaker 3>Always drink your whiskey, meat, buy more books. And Steve,

1259
01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:41.000
<v Speaker 3>what's the latest AI brainwashing you have for us?

1260
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<v Speaker 4>You know?

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<v Speaker 2>I can't find it, so we're run overtime anyway. I

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<v Speaker 2>had one, but I can't. I can't find it on

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<v Speaker 2>my computer. It's just my desk is chaos. So we'll

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<v Speaker 2>just have to go that one this week. But that's

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<v Speaker 2>probably Steve.

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<v Speaker 4>You didn't record yourself live for five minutes this time?

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<v Speaker 2>No, I didn't. All right, well, we'll be back again

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<v Speaker 2>next week with you know, a regular episode. So drinking well,

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<v Speaker 2>of course.

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<v Speaker 1>John Adams, I know him.

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<v Speaker 2>That can't be.

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<v Speaker 3>That's that little guy who spoke to me all those

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<v Speaker 3>years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>What was it eighty five?

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<v Speaker 5>That poor man agent to eat him a live? Shoes

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<v Speaker 5>are right, Empires fall next to Washington.

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<v Speaker 2>They all look small.

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<v Speaker 5>All alone.

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<v Speaker 1>Watch them run.

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<v Speaker 5>They will tear each other into peace.

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<v Speaker 2>Sis, Jesus Christ is going to be fun.

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<v Speaker 1>Dadada Ricochet

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<v Speaker 2>Join the conversation