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Speaker 1: Ask not what your country can do for you, ask

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what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 2: Mister gorbitchaw tear down this wall. It's the ricochetfon guest.

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I'm James Lillings, General Siegel, your cooks out this week,

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but Stephen Hayward is with us to talk to Jason

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Willik at the Washington Post about all this deep ortation

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stuff and more so, let's advertise a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Photos have emerged of Senator Van Holland sipping what appears

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to be Margarita's with the Bradio Garcia down in Al Salvador.

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Speaker 2: Do you encourage other Democrats to fly down Al Salvador

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to meet with this illegal alien who's an acute I

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like this guy. See now, this is this is the

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kind of a reporter. We're like, there aren't enough of them.

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We got to get some more of them. Welcome everybody.

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This is the Ricochet Podcast, number seven, one hundred and

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thirty seven. As we're getting those numbers that resemble Boeing

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aircraft again. I'm James Lylyx and orbed as I'll probably

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be called if I'm grabbed out of my house and

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thrown onto a plane and dropped off Neill Salvador, Minnesota, Dad,

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and I'm joined not by Charles C. W. Cook, who's

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off rastling gators in the Everglades this week, but by

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Stephen Hayward. Stephen, Welcome, Hi, James Gould, to see you again. Indeed, indeed, well,

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it has been a week and it's you know, it's

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kind of a nice week where a story that began

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the week turns out to be dominating things at the

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end of the week as well. But beneath that, and

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we'll talk about that with our guest later. Recent news

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that had had seems to be under some stress rejecting

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the demands that the administration has said. The administration says,

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you know what, you've been letting anti Semitism run rampant

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on your campus. And unspoken, perhaps, or I don't know,

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maybe spoken is the idea that you have promulgated a

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variety of anti American ideas in your leftist administration, and

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hence we are under no obligation to send you any money,

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according to the and so I think it's about two

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point two billion in grand send some other stuff in

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the contracts, and it's not just money handed to them,

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and it's not like one somebody walks over with a

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check for two point two billion dollars. From what I understand,

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it has to do with funding of certain things and

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certain things and this and that, and if we take

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that funding away, then the imminent cure for cancer will

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be lost, et cetera. But Harvard has said no, no, sorry.

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One of the things that seemed to be bulking at,

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and people can argue about whether or not it is

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the position and the right of an administration to put

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demands like this on an institution, is the requirement that

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they hire a critical mass of intellectually diverse staff. And

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I find this interesting because, I mean, we're seeing manifest

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almost every week, if not every day, an explicit act

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that conforms with things that the right has been complaining

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about for a long time. Right, I mean, the writer

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has been saying, you know, you, you parade around your

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notions and your examplars ofsity, but actually you are not

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diverse at all. You are your diversity consists of immutable

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personal racial identifiers. Intellectual diversity is what used to characterize

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the institution, and you don't have that, and if you

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don't work towards it, we're not going to give you

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any money. So, ay, Stephen, tell me what you think

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about Harvard's reaction, how you think it's going to play

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out and be whether or not you think it is

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wise to actually do the thing that people have been

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wanting to do for an awful long time, which is reshape,

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reform and reset the idea of diversity. Yeah. So I mean,

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I guess in reverse order.

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Speaker 1: I think, yes, it may not be wise, but it

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is now necessary. I mean conservatives and also a lot

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of I think smarter liberals have been acknowledging for years

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now that universities have become just cesspools of narrow ideological conformity,

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but nothing was ever done about it. And two points

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I make among many more is we talk about diversity,

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but there's no viewpoint diversity, and so commitment to free

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speech is really insufficient when there's no one there to

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offer a contrariyant opinion to the campus orthodoxy. So it

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amounts to nothing to say, oh, we're going to redouble

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our efforts for free speech. The second thing is on diversity.

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You know, Thomas Sole likes to say, next time you

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hear an administrator say we're committed to diversity, ask them

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how many Republicans they have in their sociology department, and

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you want to talk about, you know, the demand of

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the Trump people that they hires more intellectual diversity, something

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that listeners and the general public are not aware of.

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It's the great move in the last five ten years

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at elite university is actually all over the place for

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what they call cluster hires. And of course right away

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we will joke about what particular now as four utter

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word is missing from that. But the cluster hires all

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say we want to increase in the interests of diversity,

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underrepresented minorities, and it's always in ethnic studies, you know,

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feminist studies, maybe history and so forth. And in other words,

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cluster hires mean let's hire six or more leftists all

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at once and install them. Now, I've always thought that

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the idea that you should require demand that universities self

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consciously hire some conservatives was a defective idea for a

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lot of reasons. But I'm also reminded of Churchill's great

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line that democracy is the worst form of government except

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for all the others that have ever been tried. And

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we now have come to the point where the only

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way Harvard and other elite universities are going to reform

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is if they're hit in the head repeatedly with a hammer,

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because otherwise it's not going to change. And so I'm

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all for what Trump's doing, even the unreasonable demands, which

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I think were designed intentionally to make Harvard say no, because,

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by the way, if Harvard capitulates, no other university in

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the country could possibly hold out.

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Speaker 2: Well, when you say to people, you know, you talk

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about diversity, yet have you hired any Republicans? They will

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hear that as somebody going to, you know, a conclave

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of a nestists and saying, well, how many Kovorchians have

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you hired? Right, it's not as something that they regard

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as necessary or even welcome within the field of academia,

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because they may perhaps have a rather ancient, crusty, bigoted,

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narrow view of what a conservative is. I mean, there

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are people, and you see this all the time, unfortunately,

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when you're sometimes hearing college protesters vent their spleen that

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to be on the right is to have a set

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of ideas that is contrary to truth. Not necessarily just

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another way of looking at it, but anti science, anti truth,

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anti all the wonderful things that we know, and therefore,

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why would you include these people in your institution the

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idea of both sides ism, It just strikes them as

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trafficking with evil, so it's hard for them to make

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the leap and say, no, there actually is a conservative

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position grounded in a few other ideas, that approaches these

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topics that we all are concerned about and finds different solutions.

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And they're not insane. They're not insane at all. As

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a matter of fact, they happen to be based on

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about two or three thousand years of accumulated wisdom from

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observing various human societies around the globe and knowing human

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nature as opposed to you guys who just want to

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rewrite it. So yeah, once they get their head around that,

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they might find. But you know what I worry about,

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of course, is that oftentimes when institutions will hire a conservative,

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they will trumpet that fact and say, look, we've got

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a conservative here, and again, whenever they say that, it

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suggests that liberalism is the norm, is the default position

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for any smart, critical person, And therefore, you know, it

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just goes without saying there's truth and there's conservatives. But

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the other part of this is I don't think that

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people would be complaining about intellectual diversity, the lack of it,

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so much if indeed they hadn't somehow deduced inferred come

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to the conclusion that instead of just general variety sort

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of nineteen fifties sixties technocratic liberalism that we all grew

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up with around and the you know, the the waters

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that were whose temperature was set by Walter Cronkite and

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the New York Times editorial board, then instead of that,

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it's become this anti American, anti Western civilization gramsy and

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nonsense that seeks to upend everything and replace it with

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a farrago of nonsense that is that is contrary to

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what this country was founded on. I mean, when you

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when you have protesters out there in the quadrant, who

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are who are saying, you know, we are here to

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destroy Western civilization and maybe a one out of ten,

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one out of twenty, I don't know. But the idea

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that that idea Western sieve has got to go is

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something we've heard chanted for an awful long time. So

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if you just I mean, if you had your basic

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old old line liberals there, people wouldn't be complaining so much.

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What it is is they detect the presence of an

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of an element, a cohort that is antithetical to what

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we regard as the you know, the great American experiment.

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So ah, so I again, but you're right. If Harvard goes,

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the rest of them would have to go as well.

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You know, Princeton has got you know, something like two

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percent of their faculty votes republican. You know Yale's it's

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three percent. I mean, it's just absurd. And how did

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it get to this point? Self selection, bias, reinforcement, and

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a culture that just was fat and happy and unchallenged

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until now. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know. One of the interesting critiques of this comes

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from an unlikely source. It's Cass Sunstein, who I think

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is the sort of smartest center left thinker around at

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Harvard Law. He wrote an article more than twenty years

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ago that in being cast Sunstein. He never published an

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article once. He publishes it six times in different forms.

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But it was about what he called the dominance of conformity.

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And what he said was when you get a bunch

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of like minded people together and they're only together inside

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their bubble, they become more extreme.

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Speaker 2: And he gives lots of examples. Although the real.

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Speaker 1: Target of his article, which he kind of admitted to

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me indirectly in an email exchange we had was universities.

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And so one of the problems that I find is

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that the presumption you mentioned that conservatives are simply crazy, wrong, bigoted, ignorant, stupid,

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whatever comes about from a reinforced intellectual laziness. And I'll

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give you a quick example of what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I was last week.

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Speaker 1: I went behind enemy lines at the University of Colorado

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at Boulder for three days for a conference at Boulder

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being the Berkeley of the Rockies. And that's why I

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missed the show last week Listeners And anyway, I met

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with a bunch of students and somebody asked to go

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around with the students in the small group.

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Speaker 2: Where do you get your news? It was predictable.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I read the New York Times, I listened to NPR,

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I watch MSNBC, and I thought, I'm gonna have some

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fun with these folks. It says that's why our side

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is generally winning elections and winning a lot of things,

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and liberals are losing because we also were conservatives.

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Speaker 2: Who are you engaged in the world?

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Speaker 1: We read the New York Times and listen to NPR,

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it's opposition research that makes us bilingual. See, we know

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what you're thinking, but you all never read a conservative

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publication or a conservative news outlet, so you never actually

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hear any serious arguments, and you don't know what we're thinking.

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And that gives us a great advantage. And I can

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go on from there, but it's a lot of a

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lot of uncomfortable shifting around in chairs. When I made

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that mischievous point, which happens to have the advantage of

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being true.

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Speaker 2: Well, here you are the thinking, you know, the Charlie

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Kirk of your generation, wading into these places. How did

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they respond though, I mean, did anybody raise a hand

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and challenge you and say absolutely, you know, we don't

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read these things because we believe they are misinformation, because

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we believe they are bias. I mean, did they say

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anything or just shift their buttocks in a querulous way.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was one of those rambling conversations that wasn't

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very sequential, so the subject got changed pretty quickly to

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I don't know, all kinds of crazy things.

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Speaker 2: But it was always fun.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, what's the old line of fighter

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pilots about a target rich opportunity. That's why I like

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going behind behind the lines at liberal universities, because whichever

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way you point, there's something you could attack and throw

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people off balance. And I do enjoy that up to

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a point. After a while becomes tedious and exhausting.

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Speaker 2: Well, the end result of this probably is going to

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be these these institutions will not accept the terms and

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they will have the funding yanked from them. Harvard, from

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what I understand, may have a huge endowment, but it's

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not particularly liquid, so who knows what they may have

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to do. There's also an administration press to investigate the

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intellectual tempera shore, we say, of people who are coming

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in from other countries, especially to put the screws to

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Chinese visa holders who want to come in and study. Now,

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this is something that again a lot of people have said, well,

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anybody who comes here is probably CCP connected. You know,

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they may be rich enough to come here, their parents

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are connected. There are we any under any obligation to

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allow this, and you know, perhaps we're not. But again

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this is this is being seen as as overly invasive

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and of course authoritarian and fascissistic. Whereas you know, I

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if I spend a lot of my time fulminating against

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every aspect of British culture, society, politics, and the rest

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of it. And I walk in with my passport and

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I put it down, the thing and the and the

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light goes red. I wouldn't particularly be surprised. I mean,

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having been given the stink eye by a Russian passport

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agent in Saint Petersburg, think branking back forty years to

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things that I wrote about Mother Russia, I wouldn't be

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particularly surprised. But we but we seem to be in

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this position of you know, we walk around with a

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kickney side in our back and and encourage everybody to

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give us a good boot behind.

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Speaker 1: So but James, I've had that same stink eye from

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a passport guy in Saint Petersburg getting off a cruise ship. Right.

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I think it's standard operating procedure. But look, I think

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two points on the Chinese business. I think the real

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game here is I mean, regardless of how many students

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are CCP connected, probably a lot of them, but whether

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they're actually spies or not, a lot of wealthy Chinese

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want to send their kids to America for degrees and

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also to get some money out of the country. It's

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it's a long story, but so I think restricting Chinese

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students is not only a way of depriving many universities

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of revenue because they pay full freight, but also I

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think it's to cause trouble for China's rulers, because your

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rich elites in China are going to be mad that

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relations are so bad they can't send their kids to

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American universities. But getting back to the Harvard thing for

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a minute, because I think the other target audience of

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foreign students are people from the Middle East and elsewhere

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who are anti Semitic, anti American. And let's do this

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thought experiment. You know, we've heard, oh, we have to

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allow free speech and criticism of Israel. Okay, fine, let's

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try this as a thought experiment. We know at Princeton

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a couple of weeks ago there was a student mob

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yelling at Jewish students, go back to Europe because that's

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where you're from, That's where you emigrated from. Now, imagine

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if you had a group of students at Harvard who

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said to blacks go back to Africa. It would be

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a five alarm fire for weeks. The university would punish

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those students, probably expel them.

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Speaker 2: And so there you.

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Speaker 1: See the asymmetry of these things. Now to deepen that

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thought experiment, would Harvard be justified in saying, say, forty

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years ago or so, we're not going to accept any

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South African white students who are defenders of apartheid. Their

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views are not welcome in our universities. They're poisonous and insidious.

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So it seems to me that the Trump administration is

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saying exactly, They're taking a consistent line about who should

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and shouldn't be admitted to the United States and to

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our universities. And I'm all for that too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, basically seems to be we kind of want people

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who don't hate us and our foundational principles. We can

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work around the details, but basically, we kind of want

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you to be like liking us and what we stand

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for and what we strive for and the rest of it.

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I guess that's an awful lot to ask. Hey, you know,

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the Ricochet Podcast, and now we welcome to the podcast.

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Jason Willock, columnist for the Washington Post, where he writes

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primarily about law, politics, foreign affairs. Gee, I wonder if

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there's any nexus of that. This week, for that he

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contributed to the Wall Street Journal and the American Interest.

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Welcome Jason, how are you good? Good to be with

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you guys. Well, we haven't yet talked about Maryland Dad,

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but let's do it now. Administration maybe a clerical error

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in March, and so the guy gets sent off to

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the bad big House. Two of our active branches of

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government are trying to get him back, and the Democrat

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Party seems to be taking an awful lot on bringing

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Maryland Dad home, where presumably he would be turned a

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runner to board it ELSEWHEO, You've been pointing out that

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the Democrats are fighting secure his release and they're sending

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the wrong message. Shall we say, what should they be

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talking about? What should the Democrats be doing if we

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all as a nation want to move past this incident?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the moment the Democrats started to make it about

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Maryland Dad, and you know, you know, personally, ryanize this

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one individual, I sort of had a sinking feeling, and

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then lo and behold, the administration releases some more bad

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details about him. Fox News reports on a domestic violence

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complaint from his wife, and so on. You know, these victims,

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when somebody tries to make a victim in the press,

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they're never a perfect victim. And that's the wrong way

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to think about this dispute. In my mind, the dispute is,

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you know, about the law and the fact that the

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administration is sort of thumbing its nose at the Supreme

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Court on this case. And I think that that should

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be the focus, not this individual, because most people, certainly

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most Republicans agree than the legal immigrant accused of domestic violence,

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suspected of gang membership, there's nothing wrong with deporting that person.

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A lot of people think Trump was elected to deport

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that person. But you also have to follow the law,

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and you have to follow the Supreme Court, and they

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are not doing that in a pretty ostentatious way. And

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to me, that's the problem, not only constitutionally and but politically,

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that's the problem that anyone who wants the administration to,

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you know, change course, needs to emphasize.

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Speaker 2: I'll give this to Stephen in just a second, Moente,

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I want to respond to that one. I think a

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lot of people don't care about the the Supreme Court's

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decision in this essence is because either a they believe

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Stephen Miller when he says that they won it nine

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to zero, when in the back of his head, mister

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Miller may be talking about the little the difference between

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facilitating and effectuating his release. But maybe they probably they

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basically don't care because they saw Biden thumb As knows

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that the Supreme Court when it came to student loans

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and regarded that that's your tit, here's your tat. And

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the other thing that I think a lot of people

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are thinking is that they are absolutely indifferent to whatever

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legal niceties may or may not have been respected because

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they believe that the previous administration led in twenty million people,

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just a lot of men, didn't care, and X number

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of those committed Dan his crimes, small crimes, big crowd whatever.

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They don't They don't care. Now we're going to talk

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about here why they should. But would you agree that

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a lot of the indifference to this comes from the

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way the previous administration may have acted and how people

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are just indifferent really to the means by which those

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consequences are tidied up.

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Speaker 3: I think that's right, except I don't think that you're

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going to tidy up. You're not going to remove a

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huge number of illegal immigrants in this way. I mean

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this Salvador in prison. They've sent three hundred people there.

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It's sort of a symbolic and a deterrent measure. It's

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not that, you know, we're going to send millions of

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people here. I guess if you really want to make

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the point we don't need to respect court orders when

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it comes to deporting people's that's fine, I guess. But

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you know, it just seems kind of like a teenage

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antic because you can easily deport this guy. You know,

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you can easily deport he was deportable well to a

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country that was not El Salvador, and the courts that

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you know, the government could change it, probably through the

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administrative legal process, so that he can be deported to

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El Salvador.

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Speaker 4: It's almost like they just.

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Speaker 3: Want to make a symbolic point that we don't have

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to respect the court orders on this. But okay, you

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know you're making your point, you're not actually that's not

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actually going to get you any closer to deporting, However,

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many hundreds of thousands or millions of people you want

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to deport.

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Speaker 2: Jason and Steve Hayward out in California.

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Speaker 1: And I want to ask you a slightly whimsical question

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before I pick up on the main thread, and that's

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from your column yesterday. Where are you opened by quoting

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Peter Virek? And I thought, Wow, that's a name that's

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like unknown even to a lot of conservatives, right, And

439
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so are you trying to put George Will out of

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a job? I mean, the broader question there is not

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just via narrowly, but it looks like you know, you're

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sort of well read in through the broader spectrum of

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conservative thinkers going back, you know, in Bireck's case, sixty years.

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Speaker 3: Ago, I wrote an essay about Peter Viereck in twenty

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eighteen and National Affairs. So I read all of his

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stuff for that, and that was one of one of

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my favorite quotes in his Conservatism revisited, and I believe

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that if I'm not misremembering, you know that as a

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younger writer. Then I got a note from George Will

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about that essay and.

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Speaker 1: I was over the moon, So okay, so the circle

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of causation is complete. By the way, for listeners, the

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quote the Jason's referring to is the lead the article.

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So from Viereck, he said, the lynching of the guilty

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is a subtler, but no less deadly blow to civilization

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than the lynching of the innocent. Eminently sensible. I mean,

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we could The older variation is the you know, the

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quote from the Man for all seasons, what happens when

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there's no.

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Speaker 2: Law left to protect you?

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Speaker 1: Right, so you know, to pick up on where James

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was driving us is yeah. The way I put it

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is that the Trump people are saying, as a political

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more than legal matter, think that, look, we didn't we

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haven't been enforcing our immigration laws. Where's been the due

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process for the American people of the last several years,

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just letting people in willy nilly, and so, you know,

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why should we be bound by a certain punptiliousness about

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the law now that our country has not been following

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for the last twenty thirty years. I think that's a

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bad legal argument, but it's a pretty strong political argument,

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and the polls seem to bear this out.

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Speaker 3: I think I think you're right, But I think if

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your goal was to deport people at a faster clip

475
00:24:34,319 --> 00:24:37,319
instead of your goal was to sort of thumb your

476
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,440
nose at the system and really emphasize how bad Biden

477
00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:43,240
was and all the things you should be able to

478
00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:47,119
do because Biden was so bad, you would do something different.

479
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,680
You would have to reform the asylum laws. You would

480
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,559
hire more immigration judges, you know, you would go to

481
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,960
Congress and change the immigration system so you can deport

482
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,720
at a faster clip. And also, I think it's important

483
00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:00,480
to remember it's not like Trump has been stymied this regard.

484
00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:03,640
He has had an extraordinary impact already. He has stopped

485
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,400
you know, the illegal immigration basically in an extraordinary way.

486
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,519
So he has had success in doing it. Now, now

487
00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:15,000
if your question is, well, how many illegal immigrants can

488
00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:18,559
be removed? And you know, I still don't think everybody

489
00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:22,400
wants to remove everybody anybody, you know, but you want

490
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,000
to remove them at a faster clip. Fine, you know,

491
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:29,920
I think that that's something that you know, the Trump

492
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,640
people like to do stunts sometimes instead of achieved their objectives.

493
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,119
So now they're doing a stunt and in the process,

494
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,079
you know, as sort of a collateral result of this stunt,

495
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,960
they may be diminishing the Supreme Court's place in our

496
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,319
constitutional order, which is a damaging thing in the long term.

497
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,880
After you know, Democrats tried to do the same thing,

498
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,519
and there is a conservative Supreme Court majority, probably the

499
00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:57,039
most conservative in one hundred years. And if the Trump people,

500
00:25:57,039 --> 00:25:59,200
in the course of their stunt, end up sort of

501
00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:04,920
making following Supreme Court rulings optional, that's going to be

502
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:05,880
bad in the long run.

503
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: Well, so, I mean, I think it's well understood that

504
00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:11,799
Chief Justice Roberts, for his whole twenty plus years on

505
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,880
the Court, has worried about, you say, the public status

506
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,680
of the court. He likes to rule narrowly and cautiously,

507
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,599
as we've seen. And so I thought a couple of things.

508
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: One is, by.

509
00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: Choosing to use the word facilitate rather than effectuate, rather

510
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,279
than issuing a rid of mandamus like Marbury sawt way

511
00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:33,400
back in eighteen oh three, they're allowing some wiggle room

512
00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:37,000
because the Court can't enforce a rid of mandamus against

513
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,119
the executive branch. And that does cause a big political

514
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,519
and maybe constitutional crisis as well. And so yeah, they're

515
00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:44,680
flooding the zone they're pushing a lot of stuff up

516
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,920
in the Supreme Court, you know, in other areas, like

517
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,599
you know, Humphrey's executor on presidential control of the executive

518
00:26:50,599 --> 00:26:53,559
branch and so forth, and so I don't know, I

519
00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:54,359
think that's part.

520
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 2: Of what's behind it. I do.

521
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 1: I was in a tangle last week with a very

522
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,599
left leaning lawyer who said, you know, we've never seen

523
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,119
a president defly a court like this, except maybe Andrew

524
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,400
Jackson in that famous, maybe apocryphal remark that Marshall's made

525
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,000
his opinion, let him enforce it. And I gently reminded

526
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,839
that Thomas Jefferson, in the Marbury case more than two

527
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,720
hundred years ago, was going to defy the Supreme Court.

528
00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:19,680
It's a Supreme Court issued a riddaman damus ordering that

529
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,119
William Marbury.

530
00:27:20,759 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: Get his job.

531
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:25,039
Speaker 1: So this kind of clash with the court is not unprecedented,

532
00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:27,839
and it's been a gray area or a difficult spot

533
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,960
I think, really since eighteen oh three. Right, and so

534
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,240
that's a speech, and I don't know if you want

535
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:33,799
to grab hold of that and add to it.

536
00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 3: Woman, No, it's like it's like mutual deterrence and mutually

537
00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:41,920
assured destruction. I mean, people try to get out of

538
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,200
it because you're going to hurt both parties. You're going

539
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,359
to hurt the presidency and you're going to hurt the

540
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,319
Court if you do that. So there's maneuvering, right like,

541
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,119
the court, if it thinks the executive is really going

542
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,119
to defy it and have political support to do so,

543
00:27:55,279 --> 00:27:58,039
it might back off. And if the president thinks he's

544
00:27:58,039 --> 00:28:00,319
going to get adverse court ruling, he might over in

545
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,799
a different way. And you know, as a historical nerd

546
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,880
point on the Andrew Jackson thing, people often use that example,

547
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,200
but he was not a party to the Indian removal ruling.

548
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,839
The Supreme Court was ordering Georgia to do something, and

549
00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:16,599
Andrew Jackson just didn't enforce the ruling on Georgia. In

550
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,359
this case, you've got the Trump administration as a party

551
00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:22,559
being told you've got to facilitate the release of this guy,

552
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,039
and they're essentially saying, I mean, no, we don't.

553
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,599
Speaker 4: We don't really need to do anything. So anyway, it

554
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:30,920
is a.

555
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:36,599
Speaker 3: Part of the separation of powers, for sure. We haven't

556
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,759
though the brinkmanship, insofar as it's happened, has not led

557
00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:43,640
to a full on rupture, and the Trump people seem

558
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,079
determined to push it pretty close.

559
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,519
Speaker 1: I want to change gears a little bit before I

560
00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:50,440
throw you back to James and ask you a couple

561
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,880
of questions about journalism. So the first one is you're

562
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,000
there at the Washington Post, at the editorial page. I'm

563
00:28:58,039 --> 00:29:00,559
not clear these days. It looks like you're home today

564
00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:02,559
from what I see on the screen. I'm not clear

565
00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:05,960
if people actually go into the building anymore, the old

566
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,599
fashioned way you went to newsrooms. I know James still does.

567
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,880
But so the first question I want to ask, and

568
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,000
maybe you can't say too much about it, which I understand,

569
00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:17,519
is you know, Jeff Bezos, the owner, made this great

570
00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:20,000
announcement six weeks ago or so that he wants the

571
00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:23,839
editorial page to defend free markets and individual liberty, and

572
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,480
it's caused a great deal of fuss. What can you

573
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,400
tell us about where that stands. I haven't heard of

574
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,079
any new editors being hired. I've heard of some resignations.

575
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,200
What can you say about the mood of your colleagues

576
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,880
is this? I'll just stop there and you say what

577
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,400
you want or can say about that.

578
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 3: I can't say that much except the Post has been

579
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,720
fantastic to me, and they hired me a few years ago,

580
00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:53,559
in twenty twenty two. I think to build up a

581
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:57,880
little bit their conservative stable of writers. And I'm very

582
00:29:58,079 --> 00:30:02,160
thrilled for where things are going. And you know, keep

583
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,799
an eye out for the for the new opinion editor

584
00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:09,000
being hired. I understand that they're that they're looking.

585
00:30:09,319 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: I am in a newsroom right now, and I'm alone

586
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,559
on Friday. Often enough, I am alone, and I fear

587
00:30:17,599 --> 00:30:19,599
that there's going to be some calamity in town. I mean,

588
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:21,079
I look out the window and if I see, you know,

589
00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:23,440
a small plane heading towards the skyscrape, right, I think, oh, man,

590
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,039
I'm going to have to write that I'm the last

591
00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:27,039
person in the world's cancer. Right. No, we do have

592
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:28,880
a few other people minding the wires and the rest

593
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,160
of it. But do you miss newsrooms as they were

594
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,119
previously constituted, Jason, Because when I entered this business one

595
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,880
hundred and forty six years ago, in the Jurassic period,

596
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,759
they were vital clamors. You know, wonderful places with a

597
00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:48,200
wreath of cigarette smoke and the clatterative typewriters, and you know,

598
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,960
the occasional nip from the office bottle I mean, all

599
00:30:51,039 --> 00:30:57,759
those front page cliches I had them. Do you is

600
00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:01,119
that culture still evident? Were in the Washington Post.

601
00:31:01,359 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: I think it's coming back. I mean, I think, what

602
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,839
are we twenty twenty five now? I mean the DC

603
00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:11,480
traffic has just dramatically increased in just the last few

604
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:14,279
months as part of I think, you know, people going

605
00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:15,839
back to the office in a big way, and the

606
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,640
Washington Posts were under a you know, they're sending us

607
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,960
back to the office. I go in often. I mean

608
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,000
I was at the Wall Street Journal in the editorial

609
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:29,880
page and it was fantastic starting in I guess twenty seventeen,

610
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,000
and then COVID. COVID hit and then you had sort

611
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,359
of this gradual dribble back. And the old norms haven't

612
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,079
been totally restored, but I think maybe they will be

613
00:31:37,119 --> 00:31:41,000
within you know, maybe a decade of COVID, because there's

614
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:42,920
there's a lot going.

615
00:31:43,079 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 4: I agree with you.

616
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 3: I like to be you know, I talk a lot

617
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,799
to my colleagues, and I think it's that intellectual experience

618
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:50,799
is really important.

619
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,319
Speaker 2: One more journalism question. It is a more general one.

620
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,279
Speaker 1: There's a story out here today or at least online

621
00:31:57,319 --> 00:32:00,640
at the Wall Street Journal, and it's I won't say

622
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,119
it's taking a victory lap for the journals reporting a

623
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,720
year ago on Biden's infirmities, but it kind of is.

624
00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:10,559
And it's a very brutal story whose subtext is more

625
00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:12,480
people in the media should have known there was a

626
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,519
cover up going on about Biden's condition, and so I

627
00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:18,200
mean that should be as big a scandal as the

628
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,640
cover up itself, because I thought journalism was all about

629
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,359
uncovering cover ups. Do you see is there any second

630
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,119
thoughts going on at the poster anywhere that you're aware

631
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,799
of that? Boy, we really fell down on our duty

632
00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:33,440
in reporting what was really happening right in front of us.

633
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, that really is extraordinary in retrospect, you know, that

634
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,240
failure because of journalism, you know, on the president. And

635
00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:48,000
that's a piece by Annie Lensky. She's fantastic and she

636
00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:51,039
wrote some pieces in the Journal about it, and I

637
00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:53,119
think her point is, now now books are coming out

638
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,240
about it, about the Biden age and infirmity, because yeah,

639
00:32:58,279 --> 00:33:00,920
that's not like an optional thing for the press. You're

640
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,799
talking about the president. The American people pay for the

641
00:33:03,839 --> 00:33:06,880
press to be here and get exposure and talk to

642
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,200
the people around the president. So that was a terrible

643
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,920
I think blow to the publics, to the public's trust,

644
00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:15,680
you know, up there with Frankly, you know, weapons of

645
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,119
mass destruction or some of the post COVID obfuscations in

646
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:25,960
terms of just FIBs that were not scrutinized enough. And

647
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:28,759
I think, you know, will the press, I don't know,

648
00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:31,680
We'll see what We'll see what the Trump, what happens,

649
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,359
what Trump sort of does to the press.

650
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 4: I mean, he is in he is in no mood.

651
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: To sort of He faced you know, a universally hostile

652
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,200
press in his first term and he seems in no

653
00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:48,759
mood to be you know John Roberts like in terms

654
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:52,799
of creating a climb down situation on that front. So

655
00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:54,839
I think the press is going to be very hostile

656
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,880
again to to Donald Trump.

657
00:33:57,279 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 4: Can they do that?

658
00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:00,799
Speaker 3: You know, they've lost a lot of credibility from some

659
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,960
of their failures before. So will that hostile coverage carry

660
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,599
the same weight as it otherwise could have? Probably not,

661
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,159
But it's still important because you know, when the if

662
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:12,679
it's Biden or if it's Trump, the American people need

663
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,320
to know about what their president's doing because he's very powerful.

664
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 2: Let me be a lone voice of craziness out here

665
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,360
in the middle of the continent, and just say, then,

666
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,039
I think that saudom Mussein shipped massive quantities of his

667
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,440
WMDs across the border to Syria, and we did find

668
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,000
in a lot of stuff, and we did a very

669
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,280
poor job of publicizing it. I will say that until

670
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,400
the day I die, and people can laugh and point

671
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,280
and hoot all they liked.

672
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: But well, I was in fourth grade, so I didn't

673
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,760
follow as that closely.

674
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: Teach bag right the mago Judge Bozburg, who is the

675
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,880
bugaboo now of a lot of people. We've got a

676
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,760
article two in an article three cage fight, constitutional crisis looming.

677
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,639
I hear this every single day, that there's a constitutional

678
00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:02,599
crisis coming threatened, you know, open contempt investigations against the

679
00:35:02,639 --> 00:35:06,599
administration alleged a willful disregard of the March fifteenth. I

680
00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:09,280
think it was a temporary restraining order. You've had a

681
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,800
chance to read what he did and and how this

682
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,159
is forming and shaping, and maybe you could cut through

683
00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:17,320
the bs and tell us exactly what is going on

684
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:23,880
with Bosberg here. I have read it, and you know,

685
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,559
you realize, of course that reading it disqualifies you from

686
00:35:26,559 --> 00:35:28,880
telling us about exactly.

687
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:36,679
Speaker 3: I Look, he's really pissed off because the administration had

688
00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:40,719
this idea, we're gonna proclaim the Alien Enemies Act, and

689
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,039
we're going to immediately, you know, we're gonna proclaim it

690
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:47,559
late Friday night or maybe early Saturday morning, and then

691
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,960
that same day we're going to load these people on

692
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:52,559
planes under the Alien Enemies Act and put them in

693
00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:57,719
this prison in El Salvador. The lawyers for these plaintiffs,

694
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,320
for some of the people the Venezuelan's got into it,

695
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,719
filed a lawsuit. The government knew it was coming, but

696
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,639
you know, hustled them onto the planes anyway. And you know,

697
00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:10,719
it actually removed from the planes some of the specific

698
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,039
plaintiffs in the case because it knew that they were

699
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,800
blocked from being deported. But then the judge said, you know,

700
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:19,800
he enjoyed the use of it that same day.

701
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 4: This is all happening in.

702
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 3: A few hours on a Saturday, right, But he then orders,

703
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,920
you can't remove anyone pursue it to the Alien Enemies Act.

704
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,840
But the government has had people on planes already. They're

705
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,519
out of US airspace, so they have them keep going

706
00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:36,119
and they you know, despite being under an order to

707
00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:40,639
not remove anybody, they hand them over to the Salvadorans

708
00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:43,880
a few hours later, and so he's saying, you violated

709
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,119
the order because I said you couldn't remove anybody. They said, wow,

710
00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:48,320
they were already out of US airspace. He's saying, well,

711
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,280
removing them is really changing custody. You're in custody of them,

712
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,880
and you're giving them custody of another country. Also, I said,

713
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,920
you might have to turn the planes around or not

714
00:36:57,039 --> 00:37:00,440
disembark people from the planes. So it's a you know, frankly,

715
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,800
I mean contempt in the ordinary sense, the government is

716
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,559
treating the courts contemptuously in this case. They're like, who

717
00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:09,760
the heck do you think you are interfering with this?

718
00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:13,199
You know, we're sending them off, and you know, by

719
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,920
the way you're biased. We should have a new judge

720
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,920
on this case. And you know, we don't need to

721
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,920
bring back this guy Garcia. That's technically a separate case.

722
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,519
But still, so, you know, contempt in the colloquial sense.

723
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,920
I do think the government is treating the courts contemptuously.

724
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,159
You know, whether Boseburg should be doing this is a

725
00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:32,440
different question, because, of course, the Supreme Court five to

726
00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:35,679
four basically agreed with his substantive ruling, which is, you

727
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:38,840
can't send somebody with the Alien Enemies Act out of

728
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,119
the country without any opportunity for due process. But the

729
00:37:42,199 --> 00:37:45,519
jurisdiction should really be in a different district court, so

730
00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:48,559
the government can say, what's this guy doing who's been

731
00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:52,559
stripped of jurisdiction trying to prosecute us for contempt? And so,

732
00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:55,119
you know, is it wise for Boseburg to try to

733
00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:57,599
push this contempt thing forward? I think, you know, maybe

734
00:37:57,599 --> 00:37:59,559
not if you're trying to de escalate. On the other hand,

735
00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:02,480
I'm simple authetic because they were thumbing their nose at

736
00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:05,000
a federal court and they just didn't really care what

737
00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:05,559
he was saying.

738
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so all that's very cogent. On the other hand,

739
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,559
I get back to what I know bothers a lot

740
00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:16,159
of people I know on the left, which is the

741
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,079
ruling of the Supreme Court last year about the immunity

742
00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:23,599
of presidential acts in connection with official duties. And of course,

743
00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:25,079
a lot of the problem there is what's an official

744
00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:28,000
duty and so forth, and so we again we get

745
00:38:28,039 --> 00:38:32,760
into one of those lacunae in the constitution, where when

746
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,360
a judge finds someone in contempt of court, they then

747
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,519
need who to enforce it and actually arrest somebody and

748
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,360
put them in the jail cell. When you're found in contempt, well,

749
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,079
that's something that you rely on the executive branch, whether

750
00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:48,559
it's the state level or at the federal level. In

751
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:51,519
other words, Judge Bozburg can say, I find you Donald

752
00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:55,079
Trump or your officers in contempt of court, and now

753
00:38:55,159 --> 00:38:57,039
I want federal marshals to go pick you up.

754
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,159
Speaker 2: Well that's not going to work. I mean, we just

755
00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:02,079
know that's not going to happen. And Trump could pardon.

756
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 3: Trump could pardon somebody under restigation for contempt of court exactly.

757
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,199
Speaker 2: So yeah, go ahead, sorry, go ahead.

758
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 3: I mean, look, fundamentally, I at first saw this administration

759
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,119
and it's lawsuits and executive actions, and I said, okay,

760
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,440
they want to take an aggressive posture toward the courts politically,

761
00:39:20,639 --> 00:39:23,960
and they want to uh provoke the Supreme Court to

762
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,000
come in and side with them against the federal these

763
00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:32,199
lower federal court judges usually appointed by Democrats. My calculus

764
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,920
started to change after that Oval Office meeting with Bukela,

765
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,159
where it's where it's like huh. Maybe they're not really

766
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,159
interested in just getting stuff in front of the conservative

767
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,119
leaning Supreme Court and sort of doing politics, and they're

768
00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:47,320
really just interested in, you know, going as far as

769
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,800
they can possibly go. So my old calculus would be,

770
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,760
you know, judges have to lower the temperature, and I

771
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,280
still think that they should do that where possible, But

772
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,039
it may be that, you know, your thanks you get

773
00:39:58,119 --> 00:40:00,639
from lowering the temperature, as the Supreme Court tried to do,

774
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:06,440
and the facilitate versus effectuate is even you know, more contempt.

775
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,840
So that's sort of the question here. I think you're

776
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,159
absolutely right. I mean, you're getting to the constitutional no

777
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,480
man's land. I mean, the president can pardon somebody for contempt.

778
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,920
That's settled. So courts can't really enforce contempt against the

779
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,480
executive branch if the president doesn't want them to. So

780
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,400
it's really becomes a political question. What does the public

781
00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:28,639
think of these contempt findings and what does the public

782
00:40:28,639 --> 00:40:30,679
think if the president pardons somebody and so on? And

783
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,960
I'm not sure Boseberg, you know, and is going to

784
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,679
help the political case against Trump. I think that's pretty

785
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,280
easy for the administration to spin as here's an Obama

786
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,239
pointed judge appointing a prosecutor to go after our people.

787
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 4: So I think, you know, the.

788
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,599
Speaker 3: Courts have to be very judicious and you know about

789
00:40:48,639 --> 00:40:51,800
what kind of political terrain they want to defend.

790
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 4: Not sure if this is the wisest.

791
00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:56,119
Speaker 3: Thing, even though, as I said, quite sympathetic here because

792
00:40:56,119 --> 00:40:59,159
I'm frankly quite angry at the way that the administ

793
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,679
I don't think there's a basis for the Alien Enemies Act.

794
00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:05,280
I think that's you know, protextual. I don't think Venezuela

795
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,119
is at war with the United States. I don't think

796
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:10,519
that the gang. Normally, the Alien Enemies Act is against

797
00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:13,039
like citizens of Germany, not members of a gang. I

798
00:41:13,079 --> 00:41:16,559
think the whole thing is legally flawed and flimsy and protextual.

799
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,719
And I think that the way that they implemented it

800
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,800
to circumvent judicial review is outrageous.

801
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,119
Speaker 2: Let's change itself before we let you go in one

802
00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:29,239
more question, because you also know, no, I mean, really,

803
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,119
we can talk about it. It's fascinating, but we eventually

804
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:38,360
come down to that. Jason's right, and that's a completely

805
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,920
defensible set of positions. But as far as how it's

806
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,519
going to change the calculus, of it. The people who

807
00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:45,519
hate Trump will still think that he's being likely to stop,

808
00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:47,079
and the people will love Trump will be indifferent to

809
00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:51,239
it because and I you know, that's unfortunate, because one

810
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,400
of the things that distinguishes us is a rule of law,

811
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,159
and a rule of good law, and a rule of

812
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,239
law intended to produce moral outcome as opposed to you know,

813
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,320
like the Soviet Union and Russia with the lodges simply

814
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,480
exists to grind people between the gears. Anyway, foreign policy

815
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:07,079
is something you also write about briefly before you go,

816
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,559
tell us give us some good news and foreign policy

817
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,599
and some and some and some less good news so

818
00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:16,920
we can balance things out here.

819
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 3: And really quickly, I just say something more on the law,

820
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,000
which is, you know, Donald Trump that everyone in DC,

821
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,440
in the press, prosecutors wanted him prosecuted and convicted for

822
00:42:28,559 --> 00:42:31,280
January sixth, by the election to hurt his election. Odds

823
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,119
it was going to happen, except the Supreme Court intervened

824
00:42:34,159 --> 00:42:36,880
to the surprise of many, and prevented it from happening.

825
00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:39,719
So just be quite an irony if the administration turns

826
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,159
around in malls the Supreme Court. You know this early

827
00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:44,079
in a term that it might not might not have

828
00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:50,320
but for that that immunity decision foreign policy, good news.

829
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:54,559
Speaker 2: Something comes trippingly to the tongue. I see, you're, you're,

830
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:56,760
you're weighing so many good stories. Which one do we

831
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:57,000
give me?

832
00:42:57,599 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll start with bad news, which is, you know,

833
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,000
I was actually kind of hopeful that Trump's Ukraine gambit

834
00:43:04,079 --> 00:43:06,639
of sort of as one of his advisors call it,

835
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,719
hitting Zelensky with a two by four, you know, forcing

836
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,639
the Ukrainians to come to the table, that that would

837
00:43:11,679 --> 00:43:14,440
start to yield to some kind of productive peace process

838
00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:16,199
does not seem.

839
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,039
Speaker 4: To be happening at all.

840
00:43:17,079 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 3: I was, you know, open to it happening because we

841
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,920
had such an attitude that you can't have any negotiation

842
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,960
between Russia and Ukraine. And maybe that attitude was right,

843
00:43:25,079 --> 00:43:28,119
you know, but we'll see. But I'm I might have

844
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,320
thought that the Trump people could have gotten some progress

845
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:32,760
on that front.

846
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 4: They really just have not.

847
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:40,119
Speaker 2: Because of what, because of Russian you know, disinclination to

848
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,039
talk or Russian desire to spin it out as long

849
00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:47,480
as possible while they continue to grind away and you know,

850
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:51,519
lose ten thousand soldiers for every square kilometer. I mean,

851
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:54,280
Russia knows and Ukraine has to know that the eastern

852
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,760
part is not going to be relinquished. And that's I mean,

853
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,000
that's the sad, gut wrenching reality where we are today.

854
00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:02,679
I would love to see Ukraine whole, but I mean,

855
00:44:03,079 --> 00:44:04,920
is that a reality that has to be acknowledged by

856
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,880
Ukraine and the United States before they go forward.

857
00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 3: And I mean, but that's the thing. Trump seems willing

858
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,440
to more or less acknowledge it, but the Russians seemed

859
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,760
to be wanting to push, push for more, and you know,

860
00:44:20,679 --> 00:44:23,079
maybe maybe their terms are still what they were when

861
00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:24,880
they were threatening the invasion, which is, you know, a

862
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:33,239
total reconfiguration of US and NATO troop presence in Eastern Europe. Yeah,

863
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,679
I mean, it seems to me we more or less

864
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,199
know what the endgame is going to look like. But

865
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,920
as always with these things, the details of the peacekeeping force,

866
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,320
the time horizon, what's officially recognized, what's informal.

867
00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:45,599
Speaker 4: Whatever it is.

868
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 3: It's hard, it's hard to say, but Witcoff and you know,

869
00:44:48,639 --> 00:44:51,519
Ribio and Trump, and they don't have much to show

870
00:44:51,559 --> 00:44:55,880
for it. In the first one hundred days or ninety

871
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,559
something days. Of his of his office. So I think

872
00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:01,119
that's bad news because I I was open to to

873
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:08,159
there being a at least temporary agreement that was within reach.

874
00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:14,320
I think good news is you know, Israel is There

875
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,360
was just that news story leak about how the you know,

876
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,960
Trump decided against going along with an Israeli strike on

877
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,559
a round. But I think nonetheless, Israel has basically, you know,

878
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:28,599
in the last couple of years and the last year,

879
00:45:28,679 --> 00:45:34,199
really uh turned the tide in this war and really

880
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,599
beaten the you know, weakend Iran degraded, has bela There's

881
00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:41,960
an article in the journal about how Hamas is running

882
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,320
out of an ability to pay fighters. So I think Israel,

883
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,519
you know, is going to have emerged victorious in its

884
00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:49,639
October seventh war.

885
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 2: It's it's looking like somewhere else in the world that

886
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,559
there has to be something that's going to just pop

887
00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:56,519
up in two three months or so, and everybody is

888
00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:58,360
going to be scrambling for their maps and their lobes

889
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,840
to figure out where that is and why it matters.

890
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,599
And then we'll have you back on and you can

891
00:46:02,599 --> 00:46:05,599
tell us about about it. Jason Willoking at the Washington Post,

892
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,480
Thanks for joining us today. Fascinating conversation, lots of stuff

893
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,239
that our readers are going to love and listeners are

894
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,400
going to to pick a bone with or to applaud.

895
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:18,199
And it's that's that's why we got you here.

896
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 3: You know, the the Washington Post comments the AI summary,

897
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,719
They now do an AI summary of the comments, and

898
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,440
it's like, well, it's like readers express strong disagreement with

899
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,079
the columns author Jason Willock.

900
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:35,639
Speaker 2: So I wel, congratulations, good for you, right there you go,

901
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,920
All right, Jason, regards to DC and and all that,

902
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:40,360
and thank you for being on the show today.

903
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:41,679
Speaker 4: Thanks great to be here.

904
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,519
Speaker 2: I hate those AI summaries. I get them all the time.

905
00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:48,239
I get them from Google loun and I don't trust

906
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,079
any Google responses that I get because instead of giving

907
00:46:51,119 --> 00:46:52,320
me a link to go where I want to go,

908
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,679
it gives me the AI summary, which then has a

909
00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:56,239
little paper clip at the bottom of it that I

910
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:57,639
can click if I want to. And if I click

911
00:46:57,639 --> 00:46:59,480
on that, then something on the right side bar shows up,

912
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:00,920
and it's the Wick pay thing that I want to

913
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,719
go to. And maybe I don't want to go to

914
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,159
Wikipedia at all because it's a story about a contemporary

915
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,440
character and we all know those are shot through with

916
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,960
all sorts of poisonous politics. Possibly I just want to

917
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,320
learn about a guy who's an architect in the seventeenth century.

918
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,360
But no, I got to go to this other I

919
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,880
hate Google search right now. I just do. But here's

920
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,119
the thing. If you want wait a minute, Jason, you're

921
00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:23,280
still here. I'm doing a commercial.

922
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:24,679
Speaker 4: No, I'm listening.

923
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're gonna be like Rob Long. Rob Long at

924
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,679
this point my shoulder his way into the conversation and

925
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:34,880
completely destroy the segue that I was attempting to build.

926
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,119
But I'm more than happy from somebody who's from an

927
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:39,719
august publication is the Washington Post to to come in

928
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,719
and do so. Anyway, I have to get back to

929
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,679
my commercial to keep the lights on. So thank you, Jason,

930
00:47:44,039 --> 00:47:44,840
Thank you guys so much.

931
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 4: I'm a big fan, so good to talk to you.

932
00:47:47,639 --> 00:47:53,599
Speaker 2: Great, thank you. Point being search is broken, But that's okay,

933
00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:55,519
because all if you want to get new sheets, there's

934
00:47:55,519 --> 00:47:56,920
only one thing you have to do, and that is

935
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,400
type in Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth. Now, make you know,

936
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,280
think about this. What are your priorities today? I've got

937
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,199
lots of them. One of them is a nap and

938
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,400
one of them after that is sleep. And it's kind

939
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,599
of important. You got your checklicks going for nine to five.

940
00:48:13,599 --> 00:48:14,960
I got this to do, Then I have my lunch

941
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,000
to do. Then I have to work out. Then I

942
00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:17,599
got to write and write some more, and I got

943
00:48:17,599 --> 00:48:19,519
to make some calls. I've got to do some stuff

944
00:48:19,559 --> 00:48:22,079
for my jum You know, it's hard to tick them

945
00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:25,199
all off, but Cozy Earth wants you to have time

946
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to prioritize you. And you're not your nine to five,

947
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but your shall we say five to nine, And Cozy

948
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Earth believes your thoughts should turn to softness. Cozy Earth's

949
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goal is to help you turn your home into a sanctuary.

950
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It's a place where you can escape the outside world's

951
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demands and truly unwind. Life gets hectic, and finding comfort

952
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and calm these days is essential. Now. The hours outside

953
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:51,079
of work shall all be about relaxation and recharging and

954
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soaking in a sense of peace. With Cozy Earth, you

955
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,840
can create a space that feels like a personal retreat

956
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where comfort and serenity come together naturally. So Charles, as

957
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:01,840
we know, is on occasion this week wrestling Gaiters in

958
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,480
the Everglaze. I think, but you know, he may be

959
00:49:04,519 --> 00:49:07,079
at a hotel someplace and he's probably getting that hotel

960
00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:09,440
at the end of the bed and thinking, oh, oh

961
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,840
this is this is scratchy, as he would say, this

962
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,559
isn't what I expected, and he would make some droll

963
00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:19,119
remark about it, and he would be anxious to get

964
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:21,320
home because his wife. I'm not saying that Charles C. W.

965
00:49:21,519 --> 00:49:23,519
Cook is the matter choosing the sheets around his house. No,

966
00:49:23,559 --> 00:49:26,840
who wears the sheet buying pants in that place. It's

967
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,440
missus Cook, who we under outstand is is strapped in

968
00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:32,079
quite a shot. So you know you can take a

969
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:34,800
redvice on aesthetic matters as well. She chose the Cozy

970
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Earth and she can't say enough good things about them.

971
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972
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We all know how much we hate that. Best of

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all Cozy Earth betting products have a one hundred night

977
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sleep trial. Yeah, like you're gonna he use them for

978
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ninety nine and give him back No after one night,

979
00:49:59,159 --> 00:50:01,159
after ten, after twenty, after shifty, you're going to say, oh,

980
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,519
these are never parting my side. Also, a ten year

981
00:50:04,559 --> 00:50:07,119
warranty can't beat it. That's how much Cozy Earth believes

982
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in them. Make sleep a priority. Now, visit coziearth dot

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and tonnels and pajamas and more. That's cozyeerth dot com

986
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called Ricochet. And uh, if you get a post pervate

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purchase survey, do tell them you heard about Cozi Earth

988
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right here. We appreciate it and we think Cozy Earth

989
00:50:28,519 --> 00:50:31,639
for sponsoring this the Ricochet podcast. Steve've got a few

990
00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:34,119
minutes left you what's a funny lot? Well?

991
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: Well, I was wondering how when you began that segue

992
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:38,840
you were going to get to because it's all about

993
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:40,960
searches and the Internet at AI and how are.

994
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,079
Speaker 2: You going to get But that was okay?

995
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,079
Speaker 1: Can I just say two quick observations on a couple

996
00:50:46,119 --> 00:50:48,400
of things. Jason said that I didn't want to protract

997
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,119
the conversation argue because I'm not really arguing, but you

998
00:50:51,199 --> 00:50:53,719
mix the point that you know we're not at war

999
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,800
with Venezuela, and so how does the Alien Enemies Act apply?

1000
00:50:57,119 --> 00:50:59,840
And I think that's true, although remember that we have

1001
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:02,599
had a formal declaration of war for any hostilities now

1002
00:51:02,639 --> 00:51:05,519
since World War Two. We have, as the Obama people

1003
00:51:05,519 --> 00:51:08,599
put it, with our Libya bombing kinetic activity, right, we

1004
00:51:08,679 --> 00:51:11,599
use these euphemisms. I do think it is correct, though,

1005
00:51:11,599 --> 00:51:14,639
to understand that Venezuela, if they're not at war with us,

1006
00:51:14,679 --> 00:51:17,840
they're at least hostile to us. And you know, one

1007
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,320
piece of information many listeners may not know is there

1008
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,960
have been direct flights with a refueling stop between Tehran

1009
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,519
and Caracas for fifteen years now. And I don't think

1010
00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:30,599
that's about coordinating their oil strategies, for opek, I think

1011
00:51:30,599 --> 00:51:33,199
it's about a lot more mischievous things than that. So

1012
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:35,920
and I think, by the way, determining whether a country

1013
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,360
is hostile to us in actable ways is an executive determination.

1014
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,480
That's just my opinion. And you know, Jason's views on

1015
00:51:42,519 --> 00:51:45,639
this are certainly credible. Then the second one is, and

1016
00:51:45,679 --> 00:51:48,119
here again I get back to my historian role in life.

1017
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,000
It's true that Trump is taking a big risk if

1018
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,119
he attacks the Supreme Court and defies the Quarter or

1019
00:51:54,159 --> 00:51:58,880
otherwise causes a controversy or crisis over that. On the

1020
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,559
other hand, let's keep it mind that you go back

1021
00:52:02,599 --> 00:52:05,400
to FDR and everyone knows about his court packing scheme,

1022
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,400
and that's all you read about in the history books.

1023
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,039
Thought to be a great failure. But people really ought

1024
00:52:10,079 --> 00:52:12,760
to go back and read his speeches and his fireside

1025
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,280
addresses that he gave in nineteen thirty seven. His attacks,

1026
00:52:16,519 --> 00:52:19,920
direct attacks on the Supreme Court were borderline violent. I mean,

1027
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,400
he was trying to delegitimize the Supreme Court and force

1028
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,119
them to bend to his will, which they did. So

1029
00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:29,840
you know, again, I don't think what we're seeing is

1030
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,360
anywhere close to the assault on the Court that Roosevelt conducted.

1031
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,559
And you know, I wish more people were aware of

1032
00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:36,480
those kinds of things.

1033
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: What you're saying, Stephen, is that actually there are nuances here,

1034
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,320
and I agree with you. I mean, I just want

1035
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:43,840
to I want to reiterate that when I make the

1036
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,159
point that I mean I'm a great believer in the

1037
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,679
rule of law and applied to all. Not find me

1038
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,119
the man and I'll show you the crime, but find

1039
00:52:51,119 --> 00:52:52,800
me the crime and show you the man. I hate

1040
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,159
law fare. But at the same time two things. One,

1041
00:52:56,559 --> 00:52:58,920
I'm not saying that I agree with this, because I

1042
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,119
think it is a dangerous down which to go. But

1043
00:53:01,199 --> 00:53:02,960
a lot of the indifference that people have to this

1044
00:53:03,039 --> 00:53:06,320
comes from the lawlessness of the previous administration. And even

1045
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,360
though that may itself have been fortified by code or

1046
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,880
programs or the rest of it, everybody knows that it

1047
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:17,960
was open season come across. And the Americans who themselves

1048
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,159
would say, yes, I believe in bringing people into this

1049
00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:22,840
country to replenish us, to bring new acid, you know,

1050
00:53:23,159 --> 00:53:26,599
to do jobs here, to provide certain I mean, yes,

1051
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,079
we believe in immigration. We just want the legality and

1052
00:53:29,119 --> 00:53:31,559
the process and the vetting and the idea that there

1053
00:53:31,639 --> 00:53:33,400
wasn't any of that. That people got in They got

1054
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,280
a little date, show up in court in twenty twenty

1055
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,639
six and released in the middle of nowhere. When you

1056
00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:40,639
combine that with the occasional high profile crime, it combines

1057
00:53:40,679 --> 00:53:44,559
to form an era of an absolute indifference to what

1058
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,280
may be less than legal means to solve the problem.

1059
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:49,960
And I'm not saying I like it. I don't like it,

1060
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,599
but I understand why a lot of people this is

1061
00:53:52,639 --> 00:53:55,480
their sole intellectual contact with the arguments. Just shrug and

1062
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,679
say they didn't care then and I don't care now.

1063
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,400
So let's like Jason was saying, let us be careful

1064
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,679
to cross teas and dot I is because we don't

1065
00:54:04,679 --> 00:54:08,239
want to lose our eventual fallback and are to the

1066
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,760
position of the galley because it's a good thing. But

1067
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:12,800
again again, I you know, I brought up the Soviet

1068
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,480
Union in Russia. People keep observers keep pointing out that

1069
00:54:15,559 --> 00:54:18,599
Russia is an extremely legal nation and will do things

1070
00:54:18,639 --> 00:54:24,199
and you know, they follow codes and procedures just down

1071
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,519
to the atomic level. It's not because they're interested in

1072
00:54:27,559 --> 00:54:30,239
doing what's right, because they're interested in doing what the

1073
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,039
system requires them to do. Just because something is legal

1074
00:54:33,079 --> 00:54:37,440
doesn't mean it's right anyway. Second point, and it had

1075
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,400
to do with the what were you what was what

1076
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,280
was the last point that you were making there? I

1077
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:43,039
can't remember well.

1078
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: That that FDR's assaulted on the court was way beyond

1079
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:47,480
anything that any of the Trump people have.

1080
00:54:47,519 --> 00:54:51,199
Speaker 2: Said so far, at least, right. Yeah, I go back

1081
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:52,800
and I look at the newspapers of the thirties and

1082
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,920
it's quite remarkable the the the zestiness of the dialogue.

1083
00:54:57,159 --> 00:55:00,920
We sink back and forth. Yeah, oh it's you know, Yes,

1084
00:55:01,199 --> 00:55:07,440
history helps, it really does. There's there are many many

1085
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,760
antecedents for what we are seeing today in the twentieth

1086
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,039
century of American culture. And sometimes it's amusing to find

1087
00:55:13,159 --> 00:55:15,880
those echoes. And sometimes it's heartening too to see that

1088
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:17,800
we have faced this before and we've gotten through it,

1089
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,280
and we've remained a country that is still the last

1090
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,519
best hope for mankind. Well, you know us and I

1091
00:55:23,559 --> 00:55:27,679
don't know. Luxembourg believes one of those small places. That

1092
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,000
is it for us, That is it for me. By

1093
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,920
the way, if you would buy yourself a lumin believe me,

1094
00:55:35,119 --> 00:55:38,800
you will rely on it daily for queues and clues

1095
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:40,880
and your metabolic health, and you love it. It's such

1096
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:44,159
a cool piece of engineered tech. Also, Cozy Earth. As

1097
00:55:44,199 --> 00:55:46,559
we mentioned before, your home should be a sanctuary. So

1098
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:48,639
start with Cozy Earth to build those sheets and in

1099
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:50,639
a little place for you to sleep at night that

1100
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,960
is like no other. And if you can give us

1101
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,360
five star review wherever you happen to get your podcasts,

1102
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,159
we would like that. I've been asking that for about

1103
00:55:58,159 --> 00:56:00,840
seven hundred and thirty five podcasts now, I don't think

1104
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,960
I did for the first two. Maybe seven thirty eight.

1105
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,119
It will be the charm who knows. I also advise

1106
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:07,599
you to go to ricochet dot com and go to

1107
00:56:07,639 --> 00:56:09,679
the member site. Oh you can't, that's right, you're not

1108
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,719
a member. Sorry, but that's easily corrected with just a

1109
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:14,719
couple of swipes of a little credit card. And yeah,

1110
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,079
it costs a couple of coins a day, but it's

1111
00:56:17,079 --> 00:56:19,239
absolutely worth it because there you will find the same

1112
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,639
civil center right community you've been looking for all your

1113
00:56:22,679 --> 00:56:25,599
days on the internet. From James Lelax in Minneapolistephen Hayward

1114
00:56:25,639 --> 00:56:27,840
in California, we both bid you at you, thank you

1115
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:29,559
for listening, and we'll see you all in the comment

1116
00:56:29,639 --> 00:56:31,920
at Ricochet four point oho. Bye bye,