WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:03.240 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pegana Show. 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:05.480 How are you doing today, Thomas. 3 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:09.080 And well, thanks as always for hosting me on this 4 00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:13.640 fine day. Yeah it's another's day, so good fortune and 5 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:15.880 long life till the mom's up too. 6 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:20.679 Which mine was still around likewise, Yeah, all right, so 7 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:24.199 this is long awaited. A lot of people have asked 8 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:28.399 for this. I'm excited about this. Start talking about the 9 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:32.880 Spanish Civil War. Just start going. I'll interrupt if I 10 00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:36.159 have any questions. Let me let me start off with 11 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:40.119 an easy one. When was the first time you started 12 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:41.280 looking at the Spanish Civil War? 13 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:45.920 I mean, for me, it was pretty early on, because 14 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:52.759 it's something that was mythologized, rewatch. I remember when I 15 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.920 was like a teenager in college age, you know, like 16 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:02.320 in my late team's early twenties. There was this great 17 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:07.480 mythology spun around the communist side, which is euphemistically referred 18 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:09.879 to as like the Republican side. I mean that it's 19 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:17.400 like the who was arming and equipping and providing nkvd 20 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:21.400 UH functionaries to slaughter people behind the lines. It was 21 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:24.719 the Soviet Union doing that. Okay, you weren't. They weren't 22 00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:27.280 fighting and create like twenty first century Sweden, not that 23 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:29.799 would be any great shakes either, but you know then 24 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:32.519 oh and you know, we there were some Russians there too, 25 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:36.480 so that that didn't make any sense. And the you know, 26 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:40.799 as I got into before, before consumer internet was a thing, 27 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:46.079 you know, like I've said, you had to rely basically 28 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.319 on the resources of your local library. And I was 29 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:51.280 blessed in that regards. I live in Chicago, Land or 30 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:55.959 stuff like the Institute for Historical Review and uh, the IHR. 31 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.920 They they were always putting out stuff related to condor relegion. Okay, 32 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:02.799 I mean in part because there's a lot of like 33 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:05.640 aviation buff old guys like buying your stuff, I assume, 34 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:10.120 but it's also guys like Mark Weber or whatever I 35 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:14.520 guess he goes by, you know, and uh, and some 36 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:17.000 a lot a lot of their kind of best contributors 37 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.759 and editors they were. They were always coming back to 38 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.080 the War in Spain, you know, the Battle in Spain, 39 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:27.319 how that how that shaped you know, conceptual horizons strategically, 40 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.439 and how it was really you know, kind of the 41 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:35.759 precursor to everything that followed. And it was uh, you know, 42 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:37.599 like I said, I I think it was Sleen who 43 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:40.199 said that, you know, Stalingrad is where left and right 44 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:44.240 had geliens met to set all their differences. That first 45 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:48.719 time that happened was in Spain. Okay, even on their 46 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:51.560 visioness side, though, there's misconceptions, like I I'm going to 47 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.479 get into some of that today. Like David Irving is 48 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:56.680 kind of even though people view him as this kind 49 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:59.039 of like art revisionists, in a lot of ways, he's not. 50 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.360 And I mean I think he's he's he's the historian 51 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:03.560 of the Third Reich, and he's just like a great individual, 52 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:11.919 but he's he mischaracterizes the political uh situation there uh 53 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.639 relative to the combatants. And I'll get into what I 54 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:21.680 mean by that, but I mean it was basically, my 55 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:26.080 interest in the Spanish War was concomitant with you know, 56 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:28.039 my interest in the Third Reich in the Second World 57 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:30.240 of War, because I came to realize that these things 58 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:33.439 were inextricably connected as well as you know, it's like 59 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:37.000 why there's a number there's a lot of conflicts where 60 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:40.919 people try to finesse the true nature of the combatants, 61 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:45.039 you know, owing the ideological prejudices. Like I mean that 62 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:47.280 that was in my own lifetime. I mean that that 63 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.120 happened in you know, nicaragu when I'll sell it or 64 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:53.479 that's what like our dear friend Dan, he's an expert 65 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:55.319 on that. You know, he's been taking the oral histories 66 00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:01.639 of of a nationalist veterans, uh in all Salvador. You know. 67 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:03.400 That's why I hosted him on the pot and I 68 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:07.120 hope to again. But you know, so I pretty quickly 69 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:10.159 realized that it was imperative the kind of deep dive 70 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.360 into into the Spanish War, but also Spain. There's a 71 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.960 lot of a tragic character to Spain, and Spain is 72 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:20.720 really I mean despite the fact, or maybe because of 73 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:23.600 the fact, I you know, and I'm not saying it 74 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:27.480 does not a value loaded statement that you know, the 75 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:31.759 Vatican is in Rome, like Spain, Spain kind of lived 76 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:35.160 out in the most kind of sanguinary ways, you know, 77 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:40.160 like uh, like the Catholic historical experience, you know, whether 78 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:44.240 it was you know, the centuries along Riconquista against Islam, 79 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:46.639 which like other Europeans unless you count you know, people 80 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.839 in the Bulk in the in the Balkans like weren't 81 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:54.199 dealing with that, you know, like and uh, you know, 82 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:58.480 just the uh the relationship of the the clergy to 83 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:01.360 the monarchy. But all so I mean again ironically, and 84 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:04.600 we'll get into this too in a minute. The reason, 85 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:09.040 Machiavelli you constantly invoked the example of Ferdinand and Isabella, 86 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:13.680 it is because Spain, despite the fact that they despite 87 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:15.680 the fact that they remain kind of feudal in like 88 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:21.120 their sensibilities. You know, even until the the early twentieth century, 89 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:24.839 Spain was the first truly kind of Westphalian national state, 90 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:28.720 like before Westphalia, you know, where you had a truly 91 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:32.079 absolute monarch and the and the borders of Spain were 92 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.279 national borders, you know. It wasn't it wasn't a confederation 93 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:38.399 of palladies, you know, where there was uh, you know 94 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:42.199 where there was some lame duck you know, secular prime 95 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:45.560 minister or chancellor, you know, kind of like holding the 96 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:48.839 illusion together like it really was like an absolute monarchy 97 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:52.279 of a national state, you know, and not as like 98 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:55.600 a puppet of the Vatican or anything like that. So 99 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:58.199 there's always like weird dichotomies. So it has got interested 100 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.040 in like Spain like on its own terms, because like 101 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:04.160 I you know, I'm a student of political theory, you know, 102 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:06.040 when I isn't. 103 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:08.399 There isn't there also the in the history of Spain, 104 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:15.800 after you have the uprisings to kick the Moors out, 105 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:22.279 Spain falls under much like Russia would later a few 106 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:28.800 centuries of Jewish influence to the point where Spanish Spanish 107 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:33.680 are being made slaves are being made slaves of Jewish masters. 108 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:38.519 Yeah, that was definitely that, that was definitely a very 109 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:41.439 real phenomenon, and that didn't happen in Western Europe. That 110 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:45.439 happened like Poland was basically a huge like Jewish sleeve colony, 111 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:49.120 like Ukraine wasn't it might opinion still is today. And 112 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:51.360 I mean not just knowing metaphoral terms, in real terms, 113 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:57.040 particularly if you particularly you know, if you count pornography, 114 00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.680 which is which is literally white slavery. I mean it's 115 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.240 not a u fromism. That's accurate, which is why that's 116 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:05.600 what it used to be called. But uh, in Western Europe, 117 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:11.480 like corrupt as the French uh uh, the Republic was, 118 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:15.160 you know, as regards you know, being in bed with 119 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:20.879 uh with the Jewish users and other uh you know, 120 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:24.600 another another, an other another powerful people who were you know, 121 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:28.399 operating and hymically to the inimical to the national interest. 122 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:32.160 It's kind of like out and out the domination you 123 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.560 know of people's you know, like like not just socially 124 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:38.240 but physically. Yeah, I mean Spain was ground zero for 125 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:41.000 that kind of thing in a way that was alien 126 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:44.000 to Western Europe. I evertis Western Europe, but so yeah, 127 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:45.920 I mean it was it was kind of like this, 128 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:47.519 It was kind of like this collision of like the 129 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:50.639 ancient and the very modern and you know, stuff like that. 130 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:58.519 But to your point, you know about uh about you know, 131 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:02.920 Spaniards and Jews, that that's going to require like a 132 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:06.879 dedicated deep dive because it's just like too big for 133 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:09.319 me to and I don't want to just like shoot 134 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:11.560 from the hip on it today because if the I 135 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:14.959 I didn't I didn't like prepare any notes or anything 136 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:17.199 or just like refreshment recollection. I know a lot about 137 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:18.439 the topic, but I got to be able to say 138 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:20.199 dates and things in a linear order, and like I 139 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:21.360 can't do it on the top of my head. It's 140 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:25.160 not a robot or a savant. But but yeah, I 141 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:29.319 mean that's that's important, and that's also you know, I mean, uh, 142 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.080 it's just an ongoing and like the term you know, 143 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:37.559 moranos or mono, like I don't. Uh, I don't, I don't. 144 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:39.519 I don't know what the correct pronunciation is. You know, 145 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.600 he's the one, uh the Ferdinand demanded that, you know, 146 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.720 like all all Jews convert and like accept Catholicism, you know, 147 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.600 as the national religion. You know, which again it's you know, 148 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:55.919 the ironically or perhaps not, you know, Spain became the 149 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.399 first truly like national state. But the point is like 150 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.320 that wasn't just stuff that was That wasn't just Fernan 151 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:04.440 trying to kind of score points with the clergy or 152 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:06.759 something like this. This was imperative in Spain in a 153 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:10.000 way it was not other places, or maybe not. Maybe 154 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:12.759 imperative is not there word. This was a measure that 155 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.039 had a context in Spain that it did in other places, 156 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.159 even where there was you know, bed blood across ethno 157 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:23.279 sectarian lines of a way that was any way that 158 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:29.600 was uh, very pronounced. But I want to do two 159 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:34.120 things today. I wanted to get just kinda briefly into 160 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:38.919 you know, sociological features of Spain that relate to you know, 161 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:44.399 political development that became critical variables in the War of 162 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:47.279 nineteen thirty six thirty nine. I also want to deal 163 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:53.039 with some like misconceptions about fascism itself, and about what 164 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:59.519 the perspectives were of a in Berlin and in Moscow, 165 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:03.720 and and and how Hitler viewed the situation strategically, and 166 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:06.639 how Stolid did because this is wildly taken out of 167 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:11.200 context by every virtually everybody, including some people who are 168 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:17.480 very studied revisionists and should know better. But you know 169 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:21.039 that said, I'll uh, let me, let me just let 170 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:27.159 close out this window. Basically I'm gonna start. It's gonna 171 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:29.039 seem like I'm jumping around a bit, but I believe 172 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:32.080 this is the best way to present it, especially because 173 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:34.840 you know, I'm starting something that's familiar. And also this 174 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:37.360 is kind of the framing device as you if if 175 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:45.200 if if that makes sense? When did uh basically Hitler 176 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.000 and the the inner kind of core, the third or 177 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:56.919 eych you know that being gearing Gebels, you know, Uh Hitler, 178 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.559 they first kind of became uh, they first kind of 179 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:03.879 became aware of Spain and strategic terms. It was July 180 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.440 twenty fifth, nineteen thirty six. It seems like something out 181 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:12.080 of a movie, but Hitler was actually attending an opera 182 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:17.320 I think at UH by Ruth or bay royth like 183 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:23.159 I I'm sure I'm portraying that pronunciation. But literally, at 184 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:30.519 the intermission of this opera, it Canarious approaches a Madmial Canaris, 185 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:36.039 who was, you know, a very conspiratorial individual and a turncoat. 186 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.279 I mean it's been proven, you know, many times over, 187 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:41.840 but he was. He was chief of the ABVIA, you know, 188 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.279 the foreign intelligence service. And Canarius was strange because in 189 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:51.120 some ways he seemed to be acting, you know, at 190 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.720 critical moments in the in the interest of the Third Reich. 191 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:57.120 You know, other times he was you know, working as 192 00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:01.039 UH just as actively the sabotage, it's strategic ambitions, beaven 193 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.879 its survival. But that's a that's a subject to itself. 194 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:16.240 But Canaras had actually introduced m Yeah Hitler to Franco's 195 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:21.960 people and UH. Canari's UH. He approached Hitler during the 196 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.039 intermation of this opera, and he brought him an urgent 197 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:31.080 UH telegram, which was an appeal from UH to a 198 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:36.639 Franco's emissaries, you know, asking them for immedia, asking the 199 00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:42.600 Third Right for immediate assistance. Specifically, Franco needed to transport 200 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:46.120 the Moroccan legions were sympathetic, you know, if the nationalist 201 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:51.759 caused from UH North Africa to the Spanish mainland, you know, 202 00:12:51.840 --> 00:13:01.039 to rapidly reinforce, and Hillar convened daring Arhard Milche Albert Kesselring, 203 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.480 who I made the point, you know, kessel Ring was 204 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:09.519 finally his final command was, you know, the defense of Italy, 205 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:16.279 and UH he was never his forces were never defeated, 206 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.240 you know, they the war ended. So I mean, the 207 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:25.039 the Wehrmacht and the Loofaffa just just went home, you 208 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:29.720 know it. But kessel Ring at that time was was 209 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:34.759 the LUFA the chief of staff Milch, who was an 210 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:37.720 absolutely brilliant guy in all kinds of ways. UH and 211 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.600 in an operational term, see, he was second to none. 212 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:49.440 But all of and this will become relevant later, all 213 00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:53.080 three of them said, yes, we've got intervened. Now. Hitler 214 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:59.759 UH authorized a full scale LUFAFA intervention. All the men 215 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:03.679 hasn't said, We've got to be careful here, you know, 216 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.840 we're very We've got to be very careful about you know, 217 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:10.080 the signals we send to the Soviet Union, to the UK, 218 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:18.639 to France. Okay, Ultimately, UH getting deployed a bomber squadron 219 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:24.440 under U von rich Toffen who along with von Toma, 220 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:27.159 who commanded the ground element and we'll get into that later. 221 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:31.440 We're uh they were both you know, top Uh, they 222 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.120 were both top commanders, and there's someone overlooked and people 223 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.120 who like the rank that acts as the generals and 224 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:42.200 what have you. But Hitler's view was that, you know, 225 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.200 there was a need to test uh, you know, German 226 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:51.279 combined arms, you know number one, you know, and familiarize 227 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:56.840 h familiar eyes uh you know, both Aaron ground element 228 00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:00.919 forces with with these new technologies. Secondly, there needed to 229 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:04.320 be you know, the younger generation wasn't battle tested, you know, 230 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:09.519 and there was that too. Garring's notion was, uh, Gearing 231 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.639 at that time was still in charge of uh, you know, 232 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:15.559 the the broad economic planning, you know, in a way 233 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:19.600 that would later end up uh in the lap of disasters. 234 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:22.279 He earned you that as well as Earhart and Mills, 235 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.440 you know, kind of in a in a more limited way. 236 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.159 And some would you know be uh you know conferred 237 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.639 upon Albert Spear, you know, it was armaged minister. At 238 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:35.759 this point. Garing was kinging of like the freer plans. Okay, 239 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:41.240 Gearing coveted precious metals that Spain had stuff like tungsten 240 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:47.000 stuff like copper. You know that that uh that he reasoned, 241 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.200 uh could be bartered in direct exchange for military aid 242 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:57.600 or you know, acquired fire sale prices. Okay a uh No, 243 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:04.240 by all, a general war was underway in Spain. Okay, 244 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:09.639 And at this point Milch kessel Ring Gerring said, we've 245 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:11.879 got to be very careful about escaliefs unless we find 246 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.679 ourselves in a general war with the Soviet Union. Okay. 247 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:20.600 So this idea that the Soviet Union just you know, 248 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:23.799 owing to socialism in one country. You know, the Soviets 249 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:26.799 weren't really involved in Spain. Stalin was in Spain one 250 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:29.120 hundred percent. He was in it to win it. On 251 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.519 his side, he didn't want to yet provoke a war 252 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:34.200 with the Third Reich. Okay. See, you've got something of 253 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:40.080 a Mexican stand off beneath kind of you know, and 254 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:48.120 an intended subterfuge. Okay. What Stalin meant by socialism in 255 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.279 one country? You've got to understand the way the Russian 256 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:56.799 Revolution developed, the way that Lenin envisioned the Bolshevik cause, 257 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:01.759 you know, as a vanguard movement. The basic problem within 258 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:05.960 kind of communist political theology, or rather the kind of 259 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:11.960 conceptual view of you know, like the man doesn't make history, 260 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.839 like history awaits you know, history gives man kind of 261 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:19.720 the clarion call, you know. And you can't force revolutionary 262 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:25.359 conditions too early. And uh, you know this idea that 263 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:29.240 you know, one can just build quote build socialism in 264 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.519 a backwards country like Russia, you know, and then you know, 265 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:34.839 Russia can catch up to the rest of the world, 266 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.559 you know, and then you know, when a general proletarian 267 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:42.599 revolution starts, you know, sweeping the developed world, well Russia 268 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:44.200 will be right there. I mean, this, this is this 269 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:48.599 is not orthodox marcis Leninism. Okay, that's what Stalin was 270 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.680 talking about. He wasn't saying, oh, I'm gonna glad hand 271 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:54.640 with fascism because I don't want anyone to think I'm 272 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.000 doing anything but looking inward. And you know, I'm not 273 00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:59.079 really a communist and I don't really have designs on 274 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:03.960 Europe like that. This nonsense. Also at Base Spain was 275 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:13.359 a political fight, Okay. Politics matters when you're dealing with 276 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:18.920 a revolutionary fervor that is sweeping not just a key 277 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:22.559 territory but literally the continent. Later during the Cold War, 278 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:27.480 arguably the planet, but we're not there yet. The Third 279 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:29.680 Reich had to go fight in Spain because Spain is 280 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:34.680 where the Communists drew line. Okay, that was that that 281 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.039 that that was eight hundred percent and vice versa. Like 282 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:43.680 Stalin this Moscow, the Soviet Union and its entire claimed 283 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:47.039 the mantle of you know, global leadership of the proletariat. 284 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:51.279 That that would have totally evaporated. You know, if if 285 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:56.079 if Stalin had not you know, set the communists whatever 286 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.920 they needed to win, Okay, But at the same time, 287 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.799 abiding the need, you know, to keep up appearances. You know, 288 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:06.799 it's even more important to keep up appearances as you know, 289 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:10.039 when when when when you're undermining you know, what you 290 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:13.079 report to be your own commitment to peace and and 291 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:16.359 and aversion to escalation. I mean when it Boss tweets, 292 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.519 the appearance of the law is fundamental, like especially when 293 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:22.440 it's being broken. I mean it's this shouldn't come as 294 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:27.000 a this shouldn't seem like outlandish anybody, Okay, But that's 295 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:33.920 that's that's uh, you know that that's there's there's so 296 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:36.960 much dishonesty around the issue. That's why I emphasize that 297 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.119 a lot of people point to Hitler made a statement, 298 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:44.119 and I think you can find this in table talk, 299 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.440 but I found citations and Irving. I found a citation 300 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:54.240 and Irving's The war Path also in uh after in 301 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.680 early in November December thirty seven, it's about a year 302 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:03.960 Onward Hitler. Uh. Hitler had told Ribbon Trops chief of 303 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:10.279 staff or his secretary that, uh, you know, like something 304 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:13.319 that something effected, like an outright victory of Franco. You know, 305 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:15.400 we actually might live to regret that because the guy 306 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.559 is such a bastard, you know, ha ha. But he 307 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:21.119 also said, you know, our interest is first and foremost 308 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:24.440 is preventing a Communist victory, but also to maintaining maintaining 309 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:28.960 existing tensions in the Mediterranean. You know, if uh, if 310 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:36.680 the UK was being uh you know, it's weighed and 311 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:40.440 out of the medicine, you know, uh. But also like 312 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.119 you know, the Spanish, you know, essentially preventing like neutralizing 313 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.119 the strategic benefit of the Strait of Gibraltar to the UK. 314 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:54.000 There that that give Germany tremendous power, you know, not 315 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:55.720 just in terms of the fact that well you know, 316 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.799 the real name the Royal Navy would then you know, 317 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:02.599 be at war in a in a te theater, but 318 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.119 it would give Berlin, you know, bargaining power with respect 319 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:09.359 to London. And at that point, obviously, you know, Hillar 320 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.920 didn't view the UK as an enemy, you know. So 321 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.200 the fact that Hillar would lament the fact that Franco 322 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:19.759 is a bastard, he's a terrible ally, he's impossible to 323 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:22.160 work with, you know, the fact that he would say, 324 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:24.519 in a perfect world, you know, there'd be a guy 325 00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:29.160 who was more malleable, you know, in Madrid or fighting 326 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:32.680 to take Madrid. But also you know, in a perfect world, 327 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:35.880 you know, we'd be able to kind of keep keep 328 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.039 keep the Royal Navy forever tied down, you know, by 329 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:43.079 some kind of friendly regime on the Iberian Peninsula. Like 330 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.079 that's not that doesn't that doesn't amount to some statement, 331 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.200 like some literal statement of you know, gee, we made 332 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.960 a mistake to back Franco. I mean, it's people have 333 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:57.680 a real problem with literalist thinking in these days, but 334 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:08.079 that they had aside, it's one of the things that arguably, 335 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.880 when I say arguably, I don't mean, uh, I don't 336 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.480 mean in my perspective, but you know, again, people who 337 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.680 view the war in Spain is just kind of this 338 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:24.920 like isolated occurrence where you know, the communists support for 339 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:31.319 a you know, for the for the Republicans as they're called, 340 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:35.000 was was just some kind of token, perfunctory gesture or 341 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.799 that you know, the Third Reich wasn't really committed to it, 342 00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:42.200 you know, other than you know, for the very limited 343 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:45.720 purpose of uh of of you know, cutting the combat 344 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:52.599 teeth at Vermont. There really was a cross border momentum 345 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:56.160 developing behind parties of the right. Okay, no, there was 346 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.000 not a fascist International, but that would have been self 347 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:05.319 defeating and all. So that's not got of the the 348 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:10.640 claimed legitimacy that these rightist movements had didn't entail you know, 349 00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:16.400 some uh, some kind of bureaucratic party apparatus, you know, 350 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:19.799 with an armed element, you know, that had some kind 351 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:23.119 of like you know, abstract theory of history that sort 352 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:27.119 of rationalized you know, uh, its existence. I mean, his 353 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:33.359 entire claim was, you know, something primordial, perennial and based 354 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.319 in you know, the uh, the mysteries of cultural and 355 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:43.960 racial origins. Okay, to anyone who thinks that there was 356 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:47.880 not you know, a zeitgeist that was facilitating the war 357 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:52.039 in Spain. On both sides, the funeral of two men 358 00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:57.160 who died on the same day and whose funerals were 359 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:01.079 held in kind in January. The team nineteen thirty seven 360 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.400 to Romanian Nationals the name of Vassil or Vassil, Vassili 361 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:10.680 Marine and Iron Mota. Ion Mota was Coachoriano's number two 362 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.039 in the Iron Guard. They'd they traveled to Spain, initially 363 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:21.640 with an Iron Guard delegation to present a Toledo sword 364 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:26.720 to one of the Franco's generals. They ended up joining UH, 365 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:31.880 the Nationalist side, and they were killed in action, and 366 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:41.920 this became a rallying cry across Europe. It UH. These 367 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:47.599 guys were reviewed as holy warriors in a in a 368 00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:57.039 Christian jahad against communism, you know, against UH, against against 369 00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:04.240 Jewish aggression and all the iterations. Yeah, against atheism, you know, 370 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:13.279 all these things. That their bodies were interred or were 371 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:17.799 on their way to interment. We're put in a mortuary train. 372 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.759 It left Spain, it traveled through France and Belgium and 373 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.799 reached Berlin in February. And everywhere they stopped they were 374 00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:29.839 met by you know, s s and s amen and 375 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.920 national As Soldist party officials delgates to the Spanish falange. Uh, 376 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:38.480 you know, guys formal representatives of the Fascist Party in 377 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:42.839 Italy obviously, you know, a huge iron guard contingent, you know, 378 00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:50.319 men from the action in France. Ay, this funeral train 379 00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:57.400 literally did an entire tour of Europe and uh was 380 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:01.480 greeted by throngs of onlookers giving it the Romans loot. Okay, 381 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:06.480 So I can think of nothing comparable in in in 382 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:12.640 in the communist world before or after nineteen forty five. 383 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:14.720 You know, I can think of thing. I can think 384 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.960 of people who the Communists tried to glom onto, like 385 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:20.119 Bobby Sands, which was very misguided because Sands certainly wasn't 386 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.160 one of them. There are people like from the popular 387 00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:27.759 frent Liberation of Palestine, you know, years after the fact, 388 00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:31.559 they show up, uh, you know wearing uh, wearing Shay 389 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.720 Rivera badges and stuff. Before it became like an idiot 390 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:38.240 hipster thing in like the two thousands, it was. Uh, 391 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.880 It's ironic because of like the the PFLP General Command 392 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.200 and people like that. Would you know what would employ 393 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.359 his visage. But there's nothing comparable. You know, this, This 394 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:51.599 really was like a holy war of the right against 395 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:55.319 you know, against what they perceived this jewelry against communism, 396 00:26:55.640 --> 00:27:02.319 you know, against against uh you know again against godless capital. 397 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:05.839 That was uh, you know, that was that was that 398 00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:09.880 was supporting both those elements, you know, and that's why 399 00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:12.400 these fools who you know from the UK and and 400 00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.200 from the USA, like you know, I was, you know, 401 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:17.720 there were people say like they were fighting, you know, 402 00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:20.640 for for freedom against tyranny. It's like, no, you were fighting. 403 00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.119 You were fighting alongside the Soviet Union and you're fighting 404 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:26.720 as a Soviet Union as most brutal zenith, you know 405 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.279 what I mean, So you can't it's not your alibi, 406 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:32.039 I think most important of ignorance, but it's you know, 407 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:36.680 it has got to be said. And on the other 408 00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:40.759 side of it, I know, we got into this quite 409 00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:43.559 a bit. We were doing our Second World War series, 410 00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:51.160 but it uh as the UH, the the dictates that 411 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:55.799 Stalin was uh issuing to the General Staff of the 412 00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:59.799 Red Army and the directives he was handing to the 413 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.599 to the main what's called the Main Administration, main administration 414 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.720 for political propaganda in the Soviet Army. You know, we 415 00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:09.079 got into some of these things, but they these all 416 00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:12.240 you know, on the eve of of war in May 417 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:17.440 nineteen forty one, they were incessantly referencing the Spanish War, 418 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:26.440 and you know, the UH like a literal quote from 419 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:36.640 U from Army Commissar first rank Zaporos. That's I can't 420 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:40.359 pronounce these like Georgian and Moldovan and Russian names, but 421 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:50.279 his uh, he quoted uh Stalin is saying, literally, the 422 00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:55.680 situation is developing. Due to the situation is developing, we 423 00:28:55.720 --> 00:28:57.720 are compelled, in duty bound to take the initiative and 424 00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:01.960 dealing the first blow, beginning the war of attack with 425 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:05.920 the objective of expanding the borders of socialism. You know. 426 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.519 Quote the leader made it unmistakably clear that war is 427 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.640 inevitable in the future. We must be prepared to the 428 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.960 complete smashing of German fascism. I mean this, this goes 429 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:16.359 on and on and on, you know. Like I said, 430 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:23.559 we we got into this in depth before in our 431 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:26.759 you know, earlier series. But it's and I'm sure some 432 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:29.440 people will say that, like I rely too much at 433 00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:32.640 direct testimony and things, But if you're talking about intent, 434 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:37.480 and you're trying to you're trying to piece together intent, 435 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:44.440 particularly of at scale, you know, you're talking about you know, 436 00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:49.440 command authorities, in a state that ended up at war, 437 00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:56.240 you know, months or years subsequent to the statement. You've 438 00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.119 got to take those things basically at face value, you know, 439 00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:01.920 because number one, like who who what audience would they 440 00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:04.160 be speaking for? You know, these these these are the 441 00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:07.000 notes that were found later in some cases after the 442 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.559 you know, decades later, at the opening of the Soviet archives, 443 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:13.400 you know, and it's you're you're talking like like mer 444 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:17.160 Smmer said, you know, if you're a general preparing for war, 445 00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:21.519 particularly in a system like the Soviet Union, where you know, 446 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:28.160 there was a kind of totalitarian accountability where and and 447 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.279 and and at that at the level of these these 448 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:35.279 apparatrics in generals, they were constantly under surveillance and and 449 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:38.759 misspeaking could cost you your life, you know, Like I 450 00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:41.839 there's a basic honesty to that that you can rely 451 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:44.640 on in kind of absolute terms, you know, I mean, 452 00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:48.279 what they say might be clouded by ideology, it might 453 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:55.640 be misguided, but the idea that what amounts to these 454 00:30:55.720 --> 00:31:01.680 uh eyes only statements from Stalin, you know, to his 455 00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:06.119 political commissars, within the general, within the within within the 456 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:09.359 what amounts the general staff of the Red Army that oh, 457 00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.400 they were just saying these things to give an appearance 458 00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:15.480 of preparateness and and keep the Germans on their toes, 459 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.119 Like how how would the Germans even know of that? 460 00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:19.599 You know, like it's I mean, I realize them preaching 461 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:23.839 to the choir here, but that's that's important. And you know, 462 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:28.039 the before UH, before ninety thirty nine, the last general 463 00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:33.119 deployment of UH of Soviet forces was was in Spain. 464 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:36.000 And granted, like they didn't have an infantry element there. 465 00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:37.640 They had the end k v D on the ground, 466 00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:39.880 but they had you know, but they were there in 467 00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:45.799 substantial numbers number one. And also, I mean Soviet weapons 468 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.240 were all over the battle theater, you know, So when 469 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:51.920 they're referencing, when they're making when stalin is is is 470 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:55.759 issuing edicts, you know about you know, the future war, 471 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.880 which obviously he's talking about the Third Reich, you know, 472 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:03.960 and when he's justscussing, when he's discussing tactical matters, identifying 473 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:05.960 what he's used as like strong points and weak points, 474 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.680 he's talking about the experience of Spain. Okay, I mean 475 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:17.000 this that that can't be denied. Now back to Spain 476 00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:22.559 at long last, the war in Spain happened in Spain. 477 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:30.279 Uh not accidentally, you know, and not uh, it's not uh, 478 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.720 it's not a case of you know, revolutionary conditions owing 479 00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:36.680 to owing to some kind of you know, punctuating prices 480 00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:39.559 or ongoing emergency on the ground, you know, just kind 481 00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:46.200 of made it right for for radicalization. Spain didn't develop normally, okay, 482 00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:51.039 like we were talking before we went live, you know, uh, 483 00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:56.359 for centuries, uh, Spain was uh what was what was 484 00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:02.119 was occupied, like large areas of territory were were occupied 485 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:13.319 by Mazlem elements. When that was finally defeated, the you know, 486 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:17.839 I mean basically the uh the the intermittent war against 487 00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:21.680 against the the the Islamic Moors really began, I mean 488 00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:25.559 it was it was Viscoth warlords who began, you know, 489 00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:30.599 the reconquista in uh in like the seven hundreds, you know, 490 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:38.759 and it like the territorial the territorial control of the 491 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:42.359 Spaniards or the Moors, you know, like varied, depending uh 492 00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.200 on who had the upper hand in battlefield terms, as 493 00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:47.799 well as you know, who was forced to make political 494 00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:51.160 concessions at any given moment. But it can be viewed 495 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.960 basically as you know, a centuries long process to liberate 496 00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:02.640 Spain from you know, from uh, from Heathen occupation, and 497 00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:08.239 it was finally realized by Ferdinand and Isabella in fourteen 498 00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:13.039 ninety two, which is a banner year. You know, it's 499 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:18.719 Ferdinand and Isabella. Like we talked about a moment ago, 500 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:22.760 I believe before Winna Lie. The irony is that Ferdinand. 501 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:27.159 The reason why he was praised so effusively by Machiavelli 502 00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:29.880 and the Prince is that Ferdinand was in many ways 503 00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:35.159 like the first the first absolute monarch of a of 504 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:38.440 a truly national state like Spain became a national state, 505 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:45.400 you know, despite it's uh, even at that point, despite 506 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:54.920 its backwardness. Okay, Now, Ferdinand had a remarkable mandate, and 507 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.480 so would have subsequent monarchs had they, you know, had 508 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.400 they been able to retain the coalition they get around him. 509 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:11.719 But the uh that those successes, you know, were bought 510 00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:15.239 at a certain price. And if you're fighting in the 511 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:23.079 centuries long Holy War against dar al Islam, the only 512 00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:26.760 way you can facilitate that is by giving the army 513 00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:36.559 basically unlimited access to the national coffers, and you got 514 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:44.719 to insinuate the church into political affairs that otherwise would 515 00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:49.960 not be appropriate or constructive, and both of those things happened. 516 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:54.119 I'm not saying bad things about the Roman Church at all. 517 00:35:54.199 --> 00:36:00.559 I'm saying this is reality. Okay. So the kind of 518 00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:04.719 prototype of U of state power in Spain was an 519 00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:10.519 absolute monarchy before it really happened anywhere else, sustained by 520 00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:20.760 a warrior aristocracy that it was beholden to, uh, a 521 00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:28.320 clergy that you know, had incredible power. You know. The 522 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.280 thing is, though, like all this costs a tremendous amount 523 00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.360 of money, you know, and the solution during the Ricontista, 524 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:38.000 particular in the later phases, it's like you gotta feed 525 00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:41.280 your army, like, okay, well, you know, we're gonna seize 526 00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:44.320 common land, you know, and uh, and we're gonna we're 527 00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:46.440 gonna you know, we're gonna put animals out the pasture there, 528 00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:48.719 you know, if we need like wool or you know, 529 00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:51.719 leather or anything else. You know, that's that's just what 530 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:53.800 we're gonna do. You know. So it was kind of 531 00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:58.000 the it was kind of the fifteenth century equivalent of 532 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:00.440 like imminent domain, you know, like being silly sounds like, 533 00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:00.840 but I'm not. 534 00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:07.039 And a lot of that land was not being used, Yeah, 535 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:09.519 a lot of that land was not being used at all. 536 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:11.480 So no, but that and a lot of and a 537 00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:13.360 lot of these guys were happy to I mean they 538 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:16.119 they wanted to purge Heathens from Spain, you know, for 539 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:18.519 a lot more happy to allow access to it or 540 00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:21.079 to give it literally the crown. But the point is 541 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:27.199 if you're if you're using it, you know, for commodities 542 00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:29.679 to feed and outfit the army, or you're using it, 543 00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:32.840 you know for this, like for this merino wool that's 544 00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:35.840 coveted you know, all through Europe so you can raise money, 545 00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:37.679 you know, so that you can put gold in the 546 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:42.280 coffers of uh, you know, the sex and weapons developers 547 00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:44.039 that you need, you know, to fight the moors. Like 548 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:48.039 nobody's nobody's using that land, you know, to to to 549 00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.800 build up uh, you know, to build up the Agraean economy, 550 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:56.000 you know, and develop it and refine it and god willing, 551 00:37:56.920 --> 00:38:01.840 you know, create some career they generate on surplus X 552 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:04.599 sport you know, like none of that is happening, you know, 553 00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:14.960 and it as uh as time went on, it created 554 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:18.360 kind of a warfare state paradigm, you know, not in 555 00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:20.400 like a corrupt sense. Like now, what I mean is 556 00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:25.960 that you had this, you had this warrior aristocracy, which 557 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:29.320 is like interstitially kind of bound up with the clergy 558 00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:32.239 who both relied on each other, you know, like not 559 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:37.239 just for the sake of you know, the the optics 560 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:40.119 of authority or something. You know, like if you're gonna 561 00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:42.119 if they were, if you're gonna wage a holy war, 562 00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:44.400 you better believe that, you know, the Roman Church better 563 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:46.199 is going to war with you, you know, like on 564 00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:49.079 your side, and like their function is as important as 565 00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:51.320 you know, the men who wield the blade. I mean 566 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.159 that this should be obvious, but we're not used to 567 00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:55.599 thinking that. We're not used to talking about Europeans fighting 568 00:38:55.639 --> 00:39:00.559 holy wars like in Europe. But you know, if you're 569 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:03.000 gonna expect, if you're gonna expect peasants like give up 570 00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:06.840 land and give up like, you know, give up the 571 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:09.880 certain security they have, you know, from that kind of tendency, 572 00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:12.480 and you're gonna expect like freeholders, you know, to give 573 00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:17.480 up what they own, you know, so that you know, 574 00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:23.480 these uh martial efforts, necessaries they may be, can can 575 00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:27.360 continue your luck with the situation where like nobles established 576 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:30.320 a kind of becomes the order of the day. Okay, 577 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:33.840 in a way it's not in in other societies, at 578 00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:37.199 least in Europe, like it becomes it takes on an 579 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:43.000 outsized importance, is what I'm getting at, Okay, And that's 580 00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:48.360 exactly what happened, and that endured, you know, perpetually, like 581 00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:52.920 after after the Europeans like one Spain meck, you know, 582 00:39:53.079 --> 00:40:00.960 for for christiandom it uh be for me the point too. 583 00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:04.480 And Bebo's book is great because it's larded with facts 584 00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:08.840 and he makes some great points. He's got some conceptual prejudices, 585 00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:12.239 and but I rely on him a lot. He made 586 00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:14.360 the point that in the Middle Ages, from the Middle 587 00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:18.719 Ages until the end of the UH until the end 588 00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:22.199 of the eighteenth century, Spain lost something like half its population. 589 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:25.440 You know. Some of that was just kind of like 590 00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:34.679 you know, the kind of uh yeah, you know, oh, 591 00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:38.320 changing patterns of fecunity and things. But part was because 592 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:40.920 like Spain literally had to downsize because like it couldn't fee, 593 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.760 it couldn't sustain the population that yone's had, you know, 594 00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:47.719 and you've got uh an empire that's rapidly growing, but 595 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:51.199 its ability to feed its people is uh deterior reading 596 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:54.480 I mean, at its height, the Spanish empire literally owned 597 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:56.280 half the planet. Like people forget that. 598 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:00.639 I mean, I mean even Spangler Spangler and like Pressianism 599 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:07.679 and socialism is all about mid fifteen, sixteen hundred and 600 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:08.519 seventeen hundred Spain. 601 00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:14.519 Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. So again 602 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:20.519 it was, uh, it was, it was highly unusual. I mean, 603 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:22.119 I don't know if despite what people say, there's not 604 00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:25.719 there's not some there's not some template for empires developed, 605 00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:29.360 you know, Uh, I mean I realize it's mostly just 606 00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:32.360 like basic ass people saying like oh, history repeat itself. 607 00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:37.480 I mean, even even people are more sophisticated than that 608 00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:39.960 don't need to realize there's not there's not some like 609 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.000 template or something. It's kind of like natural you know, 610 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:48.719 developmental cycle. Other than other than I mean everything everything, 611 00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:51.119 everything dies at some point or comes to an end. 612 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:52.800 That's not what I mean. I mean, I mean the 613 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:56.880 concrete particulars you know of of how an empire requires 614 00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:00.920 its fortunes, you know, maintains it's a geminy and then ultimately, 615 00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:05.760 you know, loses its ability to to compete with its 616 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:08.760 uh I don't compete with its enemy's order or to 617 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:15.000 sustain its its own existence at scale. But this kind 618 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:18.840 of warrior holy warrior ethos developed in Spain. But it 619 00:42:18.920 --> 00:42:25.519 was it's uh, it admits it. It came to exists 620 00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:30.280 among like a real kind of perennial destabilization. You know. 621 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:36.480 It's Isabella like one of her one of her final 622 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:41.199 kind of acts of state, like late in life. Dasis Narrows, 623 00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.280 who is uh this kind of legend. I mean you 624 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:45.079 probably know this because I mean you're a kidlic guy 625 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:47.559 and like a Latin dude. I don't know anything about 626 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:50.199 since Narrows until like very recently. But he was he 627 00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:52.280 was like this kind of he was. He was he 628 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:54.920 was like this pious friar. You know, he's kind of 629 00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:57.400 the guy who's credited. It was sort of a structuring 630 00:42:57.440 --> 00:42:59.840 of the Inquisition as it came to as it came 631 00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:04.320 to exist. And that's another thing that's grossing misunderstood by 632 00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:07.239 people kind of on both sides of the the political spectrum. 633 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:13.679 We'll get into that too, but the uh, the uh. 634 00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:16.360 On the one hand, you had you had this kind 635 00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:19.880 of tendency towards revolt that was burgening in Spain, especially 636 00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:22.800 in some of these territories that you know had long 637 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:26.400 been you know, like discreete principalities, you know, with with 638 00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:31.320 kind of unique cultural habits and and and political cultures. 639 00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:37.199 So there the ground, the proverbial soil was kind of, uh, 640 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:42.199 it was kind of eager for for rebellion against central 641 00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:46.079 authority anyway. But at that time too, like the papacy 642 00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:49.119 in Rome was was viewed as highly corrupt, which it was, 643 00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:51.119 and so a lot of these like friars who actually 644 00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:55.679 were like, you know, radically pious, they they found themselves 645 00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:59.400 at odds with the papacy, who in turn, you know, 646 00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:04.159 called upon on you know, the the Castilian monarchy in Spain, 647 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:09.079 they kind of restore the status quo. But the but 648 00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:11.639 the monarchy had to tread lately because a lot of 649 00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.679 these priests were kind of like more like literally more 650 00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:19.800 Catholic than the pope, you know, and the Castilion monarchs 651 00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:24.440 entire kind of their entire mandate to that kind of extraordinary, 652 00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:31.280 extraordinarily deep authority basically owed to their ability to you know, 653 00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:36.039 maintain like the confidence and and the absolute endorsement of uh, 654 00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:38.880 of the Catholic charity. You know. So it was it 655 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:42.119 was central wasn't against regionalism. It was you know that 656 00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:44.960 that that weakened the structure that Ford and created. It 657 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:52.639 was the odd dynamics at play between uh, the papacy 658 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:57.039 and and you know, the cardinals in Spain itself and 659 00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:03.679 else where. It was there was a rising uh. There 660 00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:05.280 there was a there was a there was a rising 661 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:10.800 uh against Charles the Fifth, who was Isabella's grandson. That 662 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:15.280 was uh, that was uh, you know, provoked by like 663 00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:17.559 was viewed as like his his his abuse of of 664 00:45:17.559 --> 00:45:20.000 of public moneys and things. You know, it's just like 665 00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:26.519 typical sort of uh discontent you know with uh, I 666 00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:30.599 mean with with with rulers didn't well handle the forcenes 667 00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:33.440 of the country, like material and otherwise, but it took 668 00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:36.320 on it, It took on and outside and often like 669 00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:41.199 literally theological meaning like owing to you know, some of 670 00:45:41.239 --> 00:45:48.599 the some of the uh sociological tendencies at play. A 671 00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:51.480 lot of the country had been assimilated into the in 672 00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:54.280 the in the Castilian rule through like marriage, you know, 673 00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:56.920 so you had you had a Spanish halfspur line. You 674 00:45:56.920 --> 00:46:00.400 know that like found itself at odds with with or 675 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:03.320 with with a lot of the peasantry, you know, owing 676 00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:05.960 to complicated reasons of bloodline and things that like wouldn't 677 00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:10.599 mean anything to an American, but had deep, deep significance 678 00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:16.239 to to uh, you know, the people in that time 679 00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:18.920 and place and pre even the days people like where 680 00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:21.760 they as meeting them. I'm not saying that derisively, but 681 00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:26.000 and there was times when you had an officer court 682 00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:29.480 who uh was sympathetic to you know, these kinds that 683 00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:35.599 like nascent middle class uprisings, you know in like eighteen 684 00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:39.400 thirteen and eighteen forty eight. You know, ultimately the pendulum 685 00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:45.000 swung the other way, you know, and which is where 686 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:50.480 it kind of remained into the twentieth century. And if 687 00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.400 you'll notice that parallel between this kind of situation in 688 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:57.280 Spain and the kind of situation you had in uh Chile, 689 00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:01.960 you know uh with uh with Pinochet and the officers 690 00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:05.679 contra like civil society, like you'd be right, like there's 691 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:11.480 something there's something to how uh you know, Latin America 692 00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:13.800 like mirror Spain in the way that you know the 693 00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:18.960 UK like mirrors the United States in terms of political 694 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:22.000 sociology and zeitgeist and other things. I find that fascinating. 695 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:30.960 But it the uh, the uh like all these things 696 00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:36.199 like Spain was basically it was uh everything that the 697 00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:41.880 communists claimed about uh, you know, capitalists, like what they 698 00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:45.840 viewed is like you know, late capitalist failure was found 699 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:48.719 in Spain, you know, and in their in their mind 700 00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.199 or in their propaganda. But I mean think I think 701 00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:53.360 they also believed it. You know, they said that, like, 702 00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:56.360 you know, the only reason why the only reason why 703 00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:58.840 the church retained, the Roman Church retains power in Spain 704 00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.320 is because, like the last the final recourse of the 705 00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:05.920 capitalists is the is to draw upon, you know, reactionary 706 00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:10.920 tendencies you know, within uh, with within the body politic, 707 00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:13.800 you know, who are vulnerable as such appeals, you knowing 708 00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:16.360 to this going to the punctuated disruption of their lives. 709 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:19.480 You know. So it was like it was, I mean, 710 00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:21.880 I think, you know, I'm as saying like war arrives 711 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.639 like the seasons, and there was matters of zeitgeist that 712 00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:30.000 you know, made Spain kind of the battlespace as as 713 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:32.840 it happened. But there was also in more kind of 714 00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:37.000 and more and more kind of abstract terms, like abstract 715 00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:40.400 intellectual terms. It was like Spain was there was gonna 716 00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:43.159 be there was gonna be a bullshitic uprising in Spain, 717 00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:47.440 you know, and uh and and the the Soviet Union 718 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:51.079 was gonna be was gonna be insinuated into that process 719 00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:54.800 as much as it could be without provoking a general 720 00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:57.360 war with you know, the Third Reich or something by 721 00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:08.920 proxy the UH. Ironically, though, and again, you know, into 722 00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:14.000 the twentieth century, Spain remained economically backwards. There was a 723 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:19.760 basic hostility to commercial activity. Like it's like the Code 724 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:23.840 of Hidalgo or whatever. It really it really didn't a 725 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.800 certain it really didn't despise you know, money, you know, 726 00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:30.159 like it went beyond you know, content for usury and things. 727 00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:33.559 There were there's something not just unbecoming a nobleman or 728 00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:37.599 any or any man who's you know, an upright Christian 729 00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:40.639 of good race and breeding, you know, taking any interest 730 00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:45.920 in in money not derived you know from uh, from 731 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:49.679 an estate or something. And it wasn't they they couldn't 732 00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:56.960 transition that into productive capital, you know, like say Prussia did. 733 00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:03.360 You know, So they're not despite what you know, despite 734 00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:08.239 what liberals claim, like their Marxist counterparts, you know, it's not. 735 00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:13.440 Capitalism isn't like this fundamentally like actually or axiomatically like 736 00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:17.199 liberalizing tendency. You know, like Prussia was arguably the most 737 00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:22.880 reactionary state that existed in the modern era, and they 738 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:26.320 were remarkably capitalists. I mean they were they were abiding 739 00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:31.199 you know, the they were abiding the the economic victims 740 00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:36.840 of people Frederick List. You know obviously, you know, they 741 00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:40.440 had the correct paradigm of you know, commercial interest being 742 00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:44.000 subjugated to the national interests at all times. This idea 743 00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:46.760 that like well, you know, if you have you know, 744 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:48.800 if you have like a basically kind of like you know, 745 00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:53.000 martial cast or if you have you know, a basically 746 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:58.760 reactionary conservative elite, you know that they it's it's it's 747 00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:03.079 literally impossible for them to uh, you know, transition a 748 00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:09.360 medieval economy into a modern market, modern value added economy 749 00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:13.400 with you know, where where revenues are reinvested in a 750 00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:16.159 productive capital like this bullshit, because I that's that like 751 00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:20.039 that is literally a story of Germany and especially Prussia. Okay, 752 00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:25.119 but a it uh, there was a certain rigidity to 753 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.239 things in Spain that that that just did not or 754 00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:31.760 could not happen, and it was exacerbated you know, like 755 00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:35.559 I said, the the the quote era of reform, you know, 756 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:38.400 like the mid eighteenth century. I guess until like the 757 00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:47.199 Napoleonic the final Napoleonic UH defeat in eighteen thirteen, there 758 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:50.360 was there was a you know, you had you had 759 00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:53.480 a nascent middle class or at least a wealthier uh, 760 00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:57.840 you know, kind of a freehold class, you know, who 761 00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:01.400 were attracted to the ideas of uh, of of these 762 00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:08.280 Enlightenment propagandas at least superficially that put uh, that put 763 00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.079 that put pressure on Charles the Third to issue reforms, 764 00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:17.239 which in turn reduced the Church's influence over the army, 765 00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:19.360 where a lot of officers were being you know, bought 766 00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:21.840 off by these reforms. And incidentally a lot of those 767 00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:26.480 officers had taken to Freemasonry. And that in large part 768 00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:28.840 is where you get the idea or the claim that like, 769 00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:32.559 you know, well, Masonry is this revolution from the middle 770 00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:36.159 kind of degenerate tendency that like hates Catholicism. I'm not 771 00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.239 saying that that's correct or not. I'm just saying that's 772 00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:40.440 where it comes from. Okay, So don't I don't have 773 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:46.840 people sending me hate email or something. But that in 774 00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:52.079 turn caused you know, like people who were you know, 775 00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:58.119 sympathetic to the ancient regime or who were committed to 776 00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:02.800 the kind of cast structure, and you know the uh, 777 00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:05.599 the kind of paradigm of a you know, an officer 778 00:53:05.679 --> 00:53:09.320 corps that works handing love with the army, both of 779 00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:15.039 whom are you know, beholden to an absolute monarch who 780 00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:21.119 uh in turn abides you know, their traditional privileges and benefits, 781 00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:25.639 like socially materially. So this is just like a This 782 00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:27.639 is just like a literally like a perfect storm of 783 00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:34.880 like dysfunctional tendencies. You know. It's and that's that's why 784 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:37.880 when things jumped off in Spain, you know, finally in 785 00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:41.280 uh in nineteen thirty six, I mean, there was such 786 00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:44.800 there was such hostility, and that's all you know, I 787 00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:47.679 mean just I mean reciprocally, but it was also the 788 00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:52.480 it's easy to understand why even guys who weren't you know, 789 00:53:52.599 --> 00:54:00.960 diehard national socialists or like iron guard parisans, It's easy 790 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:02.599 to see why people looked at it like, look, this 791 00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:05.559 is the communists are like, they're making an example here, 792 00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:09.719 you know, the the body everything they hate. They want 793 00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:13.480 to they want to annihilate Spain and the Spanish as 794 00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:16.239 a people, as a culture form. They want to annihilate 795 00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:18.880 the church in capacity to exist in the modern world, 796 00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:22.960 and and and then they were right, Okay. I mean 797 00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:29.000 that's why it became so critically symbolic. I would seem 798 00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:30.519 like I was jumping around a lot, and there was 799 00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:34.880 a lot of like, I hope it's useless backstory and lore, 800 00:54:35.079 --> 00:54:37.960 but I that's the way it came off. I'm sorry. 801 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:39.760 I think you'll thank me as we get into this 802 00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:43.159 because I refer to things that. Okay, now, but we. 803 00:54:43.159 --> 00:54:45.320 Need that backstory because most people don't know the history 804 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:49.719 of Spain. They yeah, they I assume they just think 805 00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:55.039 it is just another feudal country, country that went through feudalism, 806 00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:57.400 just like everyone else. And they don't realize the battles 807 00:54:57.400 --> 00:55:02.119 that actually battles that you would see coming in the 808 00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:03.840 future actually happened there. 809 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:07.760 No one hundred percent. And I also like, as we 810 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:10.639 go on, uh, there's just like too much to like 811 00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:12.920 fully cover here, Like you mentioned when we when we 812 00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.800 talked the other day, Like I'll get into why the 813 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:18.679 Carlists were like fighting on the national side or the 814 00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:21.960 patriotic side. I'll get into other stuff, you know, like 815 00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:24.880 why like the Spanish ar Modus defeat, you know, like 816 00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:27.480 tanked everything. But we're gonna wait till we're like in 817 00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:29.760 that context and primarily though, I want to focus on 818 00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:33.960 you know, the third or I get war on Spain 819 00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:37.079 and like, you know, how the military situation developed. So 820 00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:41.000 I promise we'll dive into that very next episode. 821 00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:45.000 All right, do some plugs and Lendon, Yeah, for sure. 822 00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.960 Man. You can find me on Twitter for the time 823 00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:54.840 being at Real Capital r E A L Underscore number 824 00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:58.440 seven h M A S seven seven seven. You find 825 00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:03.960 me a substick that's our primary home, No real Thomas 826 00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:07.280 seven seven seven Subsey dot com. I think in good 827 00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:10.599 progress towards the channel. I promise things are getting done, 828 00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:12.719 even if it doesn't seem like it. I've been trying 829 00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:14.639 to work my ass off money out of content, So 830 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:17.079 I've been trying to get people a lot of content. 831 00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:19.199 I'm not being a murder like, oh I'm so great, 832 00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:23.000 but uh keep that in mind if it seems like 833 00:56:23.039 --> 00:56:26.920 I'm being idol or a nerd rather but uh I, 834 00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:30.159 uh I've gotten more confidence like in shooting video. Uh 835 00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:32.599 it just comes out of editing it and making it, 836 00:56:33.039 --> 00:56:38.199 you know, content worthy, and uh I I basically just 837 00:56:38.199 --> 00:56:40.519 got to decide on a format for you know, like 838 00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:43.440 my kind of like for for for Thomas TV, which 839 00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:45.360 I think is gonna be something like a video blog, 840 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:49.239 but like I are are are are a video pod, 841 00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:51.719 but like I want to have like guests like sitting 842 00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:53.880 there with me, and like some people like down for that. 843 00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:56.519 Some people are like horrified to that prospect, but I 844 00:56:56.519 --> 00:56:58.320 think it'll be pretty lit man. But my point is, 845 00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:00.360 like I'm working on all of these things, and I 846 00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:03.679 really really appreciate everybody who gives me a platform, especially 847 00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:05.840 not not just Pee who's my dear friend, but like 848 00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:07.079 other people who just reach out. 849 00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:11.559 So thank you very much, Thomas, I appreciate it. Until 850 00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:12.480 episode two. 851 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:14.280 Yes, sure, thank you. 852 00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:18.719 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show. 853 00:57:19.159 --> 00:57:21.760 We are here for part two on the Spanish Civil 854 00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:25.079 War with Thomas seven seven seven. How are you doing, Thomas. 855 00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:28.800 I'm very well, thank you, but I wanted to talk 856 00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:31.519 about some today. This is going to be a recurring 857 00:57:31.599 --> 00:57:39.599 theme conceptually throughout the series. There's a military dimension to 858 00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:42.920 the Spanish War that's important and was impactful in just 859 00:57:43.039 --> 00:57:49.280 positive ways. There's a political aspect and kind of very 860 00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:55.760 concrete terms, especially relating to the Neutrality Act that had 861 00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:57.960 really kind of bound with the ability of the new 862 00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:02.719 dealers to act how they wanted in global terms. Frankly, 863 00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:07.199 then we got into that, and our Second World War 864 00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:09.159 series somewhat or a turn to that too in a 865 00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:15.039 dedicated capacity when it seems appropriate. But I'm sure that 866 00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:18.039 there's gonna be some people who say that this is 867 00:58:18.039 --> 00:58:20.639 over in my own conceptual prejudices, and I kind of 868 00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:27.000 hay Gaelian orientation and my tendency towards German storicism. But 869 00:58:28.039 --> 00:58:35.639 the the animating catalyst for the Spanish War was was Zeitgeist. 870 00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:37.440 You know, we got we got into that in the 871 00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:40.239 first episode. You know, I made the point that despite 872 00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:43.639 the a lot of historians make a point of the 873 00:58:43.639 --> 00:58:47.679 conspicuous absence of a fascist international, you know, contra a 874 00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:51.880 communist international, some of that's a Cold War hangover, when 875 00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:57.639 you know, you'd have you'd have progress, you know stuff. 876 00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:02.239 I don't like progressive historians, you know, with having to 877 00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:05.719 present the issue as well, see that, you know, this 878 00:59:05.719 --> 00:59:07.880 this was just you know, these are just capitalist states 879 00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:10.440 and crisis, and they they were they were just scrambling 880 00:59:10.599 --> 00:59:13.639 to sort of confabulate some iteration of what appeared to be, 881 00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:16.679 you know, a revolutionary tendency in its own right. You know, 882 00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:21.320 to sort of rob the momentum of the left. You know, 883 00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:26.239 that doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny anyway, But 884 00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:32.880 the fact that there was this kind of outpouring of 885 00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:37.039 support for the nationalist cause, you know, which really was 886 00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:39.159 the cabolic cause. You know, we'll get into that a 887 00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:44.400 little bit here today. I mean, you know, and like 888 00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:47.679 I said, I I make a lot I guess of 889 00:59:48.199 --> 00:59:53.679 prime symbolic events, you know, I mean, prime symbols dominate 890 00:59:53.719 --> 00:59:58.840 in human psychology, you know, especially at scale, you know, sociologically. 891 01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:07.119 You know that that's that's why iconic events, you know, 892 01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:11.480 defined civic memory. But also you know, that's why political 893 01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:16.840 symbols are so important, you know, particularly when there's there's 894 01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:19.360 mobilization catalysts, you know, like during the Inner Warriors. But 895 01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:22.039 you know, we talked about the we talked about the funeral, 896 01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:26.400 the funerals of the few, the common funeral of Ion 897 01:00:26.519 --> 01:00:30.519 Mota and that's the old Marine, you know, and how 898 01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:34.559 you know, delegates from pretty much every European state that 899 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:37.000 had any kind of active right wing movement or anti 900 01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:41.280 communist movement, you know, they turned out to literally salute, 901 01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:46.280 you know, the the funerary train. You know when they 902 01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:52.519 were greeted, uh, everywhere they went by these cadres, and 903 01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:54.400 that's not something that's not something that could just be 904 01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:57.280 you know, cobbled together for for photo opportunities. You know, 905 01:00:57.320 --> 01:00:59.559 it was very authentic. And just the fact that there 906 01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:04.039 were Medians on the ground in the first place, you know, 907 01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:07.480 and then they're they're being greeted and saluted by you know, 908 01:01:07.719 --> 01:01:13.000 uh shoot Staffelman, you know, and you had Italian priests 909 01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:15.960 you know, like like like blessing them and things. And 910 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:18.840 then and then there's even like secular like French fascists 911 01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:20.960 like action france as types like saluting them, you know, 912 01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:25.719 who had obviously like no, no, no truck with reactionary 913 01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:28.719 Catholicism as it was perceived, you know, on his own terms. 914 01:01:28.719 --> 01:01:36.039 But that's most important in America too, because really some historians, 915 01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:40.000 including Anthony Beevor, who I I think he's overall a 916 01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:44.480 very good historian, articularly I mean he's not a revisionist 917 01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:48.960 really at all, as far as court historians go. I 918 01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:52.960 think he's probably the best, you know, on the subject 919 01:01:53.079 --> 01:01:55.840 of the Second World War in the interwar years. But 920 01:01:55.960 --> 01:02:03.000 he you know, he uh, he's got he's got a 921 01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:07.800 tendency to kind of hit the mark but not really 922 01:02:08.320 --> 01:02:11.519 understand the sort of depth of significance of some of 923 01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:16.400 these prime symbolic events. And he hits the mark. What 924 01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:19.840 he talks about the Spanish War being you know, a 925 01:02:19.880 --> 01:02:22.400 precursor to the Second World War. I mean, he perceives 926 01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:25.599 even a guy like him who rejects, you know, the 927 01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:28.960 kind of historicism of a guy like Novelty and and 928 01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:33.920 you know, uh as well as you know the the 929 01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:38.119 the contrasy storicism of people like Osbam, But he doesn't 930 01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:42.719 identify you know, like a common uh nucleus of approximate 931 01:02:42.800 --> 01:02:47.599 causation there. But it it was deeper than just you 932 01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:51.440 know what kind of a kind of opening act of 933 01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:56.599 hostilities relating to you know, extent you know, geostrategic ambitions 934 01:02:56.639 --> 01:03:01.800 and and and intentions. Know it really it really was 935 01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:05.719 apocal and and ideological and a matter of zeitgeist as 936 01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:08.960 the why as the why why what animated Germany to 937 01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:11.280 intervene in Spain? Why the Soviets staked it the way 938 01:03:11.280 --> 01:03:16.840 they did, you know why you know, i uh, progressives 939 01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:20.360 in America and the UK, you know, who identify themselves 940 01:03:20.360 --> 01:03:23.159 as you know, on the side of the COO democracy movement, 941 01:03:23.239 --> 01:03:27.840 which which is incredibly misguided and deliberately it was a 942 01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:31.119 deliberate lie. And we're going to get into that. So 943 01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:32.840 that that's a question that at Bar is kind of 944 01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:36.760 like why Spain, Well, well, we think of, like speaking 945 01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:38.840 of civic myths, so can we think of we think 946 01:03:38.840 --> 01:03:40.800 of the kind of prime symbols The left likes to 947 01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:43.079 trot out as like the horrors of you know that 948 01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:46.559 which came before one of the big ones is the 949 01:03:46.639 --> 01:03:52.480 Inquisition or the Crusades. They can't really, they can't really 950 01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:55.719 expand upon what they mean by that, you know, like 951 01:03:55.840 --> 01:03:58.639 what inquisition, because there was three. There's the Portuguese Inquisition, 952 01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:01.320 there was the Italian, and there was the Spains. The 953 01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:06.159 Spanish Inquisition was the most politically significant. I'd say it 954 01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:10.840 was initiated by Isabella in fourteen seventy eight. You know, 955 01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:13.119 when we talked about ferd in Isabella like the irony 956 01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:18.000 of a of a of them like preceding the Westphalian state, 957 01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:21.960 you know by a century and a half. But but 958 01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:25.199 but Catholic Spain, like like like Ferdinand really did make 959 01:04:25.280 --> 01:04:32.280 Spain and national Catholic state sight unseen, you know in 960 01:04:32.360 --> 01:04:37.400 a in a way that is at odds with with 961 01:04:37.480 --> 01:04:43.440 Spain's kind of stagnant and traditionalist culture. I don't mean 962 01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:48.440 that punitively. That's just a fact. But the Spanish Inquisition 963 01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:55.119 endured for three hundred years. It's agreed upon now by everybody, Okay, 964 01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:57.639 by court, his story and revisionists or whatever. I could 965 01:04:57.639 --> 01:05:00.360 pull out citations, but I don't think it's an a assaria. 966 01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:03.679 If somebody really wants them now or on any topic 967 01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:06.639 we cover, I can provide them, but contact me directly. 968 01:05:07.239 --> 01:05:09.519 I'm not being autistic or something like. People do that 969 01:05:09.559 --> 01:05:12.199 to me, They're like, that's a bullshit, figure, where's your source? Well, 970 01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:14.280 I can source everything, but I'm not going to sit 971 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:20.320 here and relay, you know, citations like a shithead. But 972 01:05:22.239 --> 01:05:25.400 between three thousand and six thousand people in three hundred 973 01:05:25.480 --> 01:05:28.679 years of the inquisitions Spanish Inquisition were put to death, okay, 974 01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:33.719 based on convictions. That's about two point seven percent of 975 01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:42.239 all cases. Okay. In one year, nineteen thirty six, the 976 01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:47.280 communists and their socialist allies in Spain slaughtered about six 977 01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:51.159 thousand priests and nuns, you know, just outright, they just 978 01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:57.880 massacred them. Okay. So within the first year of a 979 01:05:57.880 --> 01:06:01.880 three year conflict, more clergy people were categorically slaughtered by 980 01:06:01.880 --> 01:06:06.719 the Communists and their democratic allies. Then the total number 981 01:06:06.719 --> 01:06:09.960 of people put to death by the Inquisition or three 982 01:06:10.039 --> 01:06:13.199 centuries the Inquisition is what you're like taught, is this 983 01:06:13.239 --> 01:06:16.159 like event of abject horror in the strog of record. 984 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:17.960 Like I'm not cadaic, so I don't I don't have 985 01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:19.559 some like direk dog in that fight other than the 986 01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:21.960 fact that this kind of thing is discussing to anybody 987 01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:26.519 who's a don't normal, But that really jumped out at me, Like, 988 01:06:26.559 --> 01:06:28.519 as I said that, deep diving into Cali history, I'm 989 01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:32.199 findingly like twenty five years ago, No, okay, not because 990 01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:34.639 like I believe that, like you know, the Inquisition was, 991 01:06:35.039 --> 01:06:38.920 you know, this kind of horror show or this kind 992 01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:43.960 of singular instance of brutality that's just unparalleled by anything comparable. 993 01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:46.920 I mean, I knew that court history was histriotic, I 994 01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:56.079 knew that they lied, but it's remarkable, like contra the 995 01:06:56.159 --> 01:07:02.840 violence that was instigated against you know, the CADLT clergy itself, 996 01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:05.599 you know within really it wasnt until a few years 997 01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:09.559 ago living memory, you know, the if you if you 998 01:07:09.559 --> 01:07:12.239 want to if you want to vilify the Roman Church, 999 01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:14.800 there's a lot of ways you can do it without 1000 01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:17.320 opening yourself up to that kind of criticism. Okay, but 1001 01:07:17.400 --> 01:07:20.840 I that's another example of some something like that particular myth. 1002 01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:23.519 I was making the point that a bunch of people 1003 01:07:23.559 --> 01:07:25.960 lament you know, the information age and the kind of 1004 01:07:25.960 --> 01:07:29.679 corrupting influence of you know, this kind of like totally 1005 01:07:29.719 --> 01:07:34.440 immersion like in screens. You know it there, it's more 1006 01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:38.519 it's more of a liberation mechanism than it is you know, 1007 01:07:38.639 --> 01:07:41.599 like one of then then then it's like a check 1008 01:07:41.639 --> 01:07:45.039 called the psychic slavery. And there's just like one example, okay, 1009 01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:47.639 like forty years ago you could band you better. The 1010 01:07:47.679 --> 01:07:49.960 end position was the most horrible thing ever. And thank 1011 01:07:50.039 --> 01:07:53.280 god that you know, the Democrats in nineteen thirty six, 1012 01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:56.199 you know, stopped it from from oppressing women and slaughtering 1013 01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:59.559 people and you know, like crucifying gay people. It's sitting 1014 01:07:59.599 --> 01:08:02.760 on fire, like you get away with that, Okay, even 1015 01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:05.519 people wh knew it wasn't true, they couldn't just like 1016 01:08:05.559 --> 01:08:07.519 rebut you like with in seconds like from the phone 1017 01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:10.920 in their pocket. Okay. And I was making the point 1018 01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:15.719 that you know, we're not. We're not running an evangelical church, 1019 01:08:15.719 --> 01:08:17.960 we're not missionaries. So I mean I I don't go 1020 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:20.199 out in the world and say to people like, see, 1021 01:08:20.199 --> 01:08:22.239 like this is what you've been lied too. Look at 1022 01:08:22.239 --> 01:08:30.920 the figures on my phone for the imposition, but for 1023 01:08:31.119 --> 01:08:34.680 the people who are you know, interested in real history, 1024 01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:37.119 you know, for the people who are charged for political 1025 01:08:37.199 --> 01:08:40.560 or patriotic reasons, or just because like it feels like 1026 01:08:40.560 --> 01:08:42.720 a calling me and like corny that sounds like I 1027 01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:44.960 feel like being a revisionist is like my calling. That's 1028 01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:50.640 like what God wants me to do. It. Uh, you 1029 01:08:50.680 --> 01:08:53.079 don't feel so much like you're brushing up against the 1030 01:08:53.119 --> 01:08:57.880 Leviathan and trying to correct these lies of history. And 1031 01:08:57.920 --> 01:09:03.760 it's also even if you think yourself basic immune to zeitgeist, 1032 01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:07.359 you're not okay. You're gonna internalize features of it, even 1033 01:09:07.399 --> 01:09:09.960 if you're doing so in oppositional terms, because it's like 1034 01:09:10.000 --> 01:09:12.600 the weather, you know, like Al's coming back, you know, 1035 01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:15.640 like in Natural Born Killers, that might seem like a 1036 01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:18.279 corny thing to site in a serious discussion, but it's 1037 01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:22.920 actually a pretty profound film. I think owing in large 1038 01:09:22.960 --> 01:09:24.920 part of the screenplay, there's this one part where I'm 1039 01:09:25.479 --> 01:09:27.479 you know what he harrelse and he's like he's modeled 1040 01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:29.720 on stark Weather. You know. He says to the guy 1041 01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:31.960 he's supposed to be like Heraldo, who's played by Robert 1042 01:09:31.960 --> 01:09:33.800 Downey Junior. He's like, you know, he's like, media is 1043 01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:36.199 like weather, but it's man made weather, you know. And 1044 01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:41.039 and that's true, you know, And the degree to which 1045 01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:43.960 there was only the degree that there's a bully pulpit 1046 01:09:44.359 --> 01:09:49.520 for historical claims and narrative, you know, the kind of 1047 01:09:49.560 --> 01:09:53.079 brief window an absolute turns brief. I mean between when 1048 01:09:53.239 --> 01:09:55.640 visual media you know, from the movie house and then 1049 01:09:55.840 --> 01:09:57.720 you know, to the TV screen and then like the 1050 01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:01.680 ubiquity of you know, the the cable media cycle that 1051 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:04.439 was edged out by Internet very rapidly after it reached 1052 01:10:04.439 --> 01:10:07.119 the zenith. But there was a brief period of dizenith, 1053 01:10:07.119 --> 01:10:09.039 you know, in the eighties into like the mid nineties, 1054 01:10:09.159 --> 01:10:11.800 where we was just absolute okay, like it it was 1055 01:10:12.680 --> 01:10:15.840 it could not be fucked with. It was like like 1056 01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:18.359 you were like, if you were a visionist, you were 1057 01:10:18.359 --> 01:10:21.079 a proverbial ninety pound weekling, and media was Mike Tyson 1058 01:10:21.119 --> 01:10:23.800 in nineteen eighty eight. Okay, like it there's just nothing 1059 01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:30.000 you could do to it, okay, and even uh, even 1060 01:10:30.239 --> 01:10:32.479 the climate was such that even even the people who 1061 01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:35.720 are otherwise receptive you just come off like a crank okay, 1062 01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:41.800 because you know, literally like the conceptual weather system you know, 1063 01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:45.680 don't invoke the metaphor again, was completely at odds with 1064 01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:49.279 what you were declaring, okay, and that the degree to 1065 01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:53.319 which you know, Internet changed everything and cannot be overstated. 1066 01:10:53.720 --> 01:10:56.119 And that's why that's why Twitter went early berzerk, you know, 1067 01:10:56.239 --> 01:10:58.960 like a few years back, and that's why Meg now, 1068 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:01.319 like you run an Internet. I just went in an 1069 01:11:01.399 --> 01:11:03.600 our center that searched for polio, like not even because 1070 01:11:03.640 --> 01:11:05.159 I was in a discussion with a guy who does 1071 01:11:05.159 --> 01:11:08.000 a lot of research on AIDS and on like idiolog 1072 01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:14.039 itsiological like sources of disease. So I don't know, like 1073 01:11:14.119 --> 01:11:16.479 learn about polio. I didn't type in like is polio 1074 01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:19.479 fake or something. My first result is that there is 1075 01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:22.359 a conspiracy theory that polio was created by the government 1076 01:11:22.439 --> 01:11:24.960 or it's like I didn't ask that, you know, It's like, 1077 01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:28.399 so they're showing their hand, like I could probably I 1078 01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:30.640 could probably want to search like naval oranges or for 1079 01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:32.479 like puppy dogs, and it would be like, you know, 1080 01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:34.960 the Nazis massic puppy dogs because they were the most 1081 01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:38.199 evil people ever or something like I should you not 1082 01:11:38.279 --> 01:11:41.279 it's like that extreme. But the point is like it's 1083 01:11:41.319 --> 01:11:44.640 not they're they're not even they're they're not even willing 1084 01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:47.159 to you know, just kind of like deploy like lesions 1085 01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:51.520 of uh of like disinfo people to like you know, Twitter, 1086 01:11:51.800 --> 01:11:55.760 like or do Instagram. And it's interesting and so many 1087 01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:59.279 people doing like screen capture to like get like concepts out, 1088 01:11:59.399 --> 01:12:02.039 you know. And then I'm interested in how they're how 1089 01:12:02.039 --> 01:12:04.680 they're gonna They're already shutting stuff down into auspices of 1090 01:12:05.279 --> 01:12:07.920 you know, that's inappropriate for children or something. But it's 1091 01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:09.640 that I don't want to go too far on the topic. 1092 01:12:10.359 --> 01:12:15.119 But in the event, okay, so why is Spain and 1093 01:12:15.479 --> 01:12:18.800 why did the Communists attack the clergy like this? I mean, 1094 01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:21.760 like we know why, like in terms of you know 1095 01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:24.880 why they hated the church and we know why you know, 1096 01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:28.960 bullsheit at cadres if you like clergy people as standard 1097 01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:31.840 bearers of of a counter revolutionary tendency of tremendous power, 1098 01:12:32.760 --> 01:12:39.119 but just hand over fists like slaughtering clergy people. It 1099 01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:45.279 seems like it's bad optics. Okay, now, for a long time, 1100 01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:50.800 what the what the elk? What the alibi was of 1101 01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:55.239 the left in Spain. It was a strange transition period 1102 01:12:55.960 --> 01:12:59.239 after Franco died. Franco was elderly, but he died somewhat 1103 01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:03.800 abruptly and as you might have imagined the especially in 1104 01:13:03.840 --> 01:13:06.159 those days, you know, in nineteen seventy five, there was 1105 01:13:06.199 --> 01:13:08.720 not a lot of news coming out of Madrid about, 1106 01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:12.000 you know, the the kind of health of Franco, but 1107 01:13:12.079 --> 01:13:14.720 also too like people like like ahead of state. Now 1108 01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:17.520 he's got he's got like doctors, like a bosass figured 1109 01:13:17.520 --> 01:13:19.840 of being literally like all the time, you know, like 1110 01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:24.800 in those days, it was not like people even if 1111 01:13:26.520 --> 01:13:29.319 you know, it was not clear, like what the state 1112 01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:32.399 of somebody's health was always isn't There wasn't this uh, 1113 01:13:32.600 --> 01:13:36.079 there wasn't this kind of a there There wasn't this 1114 01:13:36.159 --> 01:13:39.600 kind of ongoing like revolutionary shift like there wasn't Portugal, 1115 01:13:40.039 --> 01:13:42.199 you know, like uh like sales Ar among other things, 1116 01:13:42.199 --> 01:13:44.239 averted a buddy civil war, I mean, as a topic 1117 01:13:44.239 --> 01:13:49.439 for another pod or series entirely. But Franco dies suddenly, 1118 01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:51.640 it becomes clear that people aren't gonna accept you know, 1119 01:13:51.760 --> 01:13:54.800 like uh, you know, the the reinstitution of just a 1120 01:13:54.840 --> 01:13:58.119 constitucial monarchy. It becomes clear that like even if Franco 1121 01:13:58.239 --> 01:14:00.560 had a successor, he wasn't gonna be up that either. 1122 01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:03.600 Spain's now like been in NATO for many years, you know, 1123 01:14:03.680 --> 01:14:06.079 it was, it's been, it's been integrated, poor man in 1124 01:14:06.159 --> 01:14:08.720 Europe as it may be. It's it had been integrated 1125 01:14:08.760 --> 01:14:14.960 you know for decades into the ec it uh. But 1126 01:14:15.000 --> 01:14:17.479 there were there was like in terms like the ideological culture, 1127 01:14:18.840 --> 01:14:22.600 there was problems, you know, especially because you know, not 1128 01:14:22.720 --> 01:14:25.159 just going to the Cold War, but it's you know, 1129 01:14:25.399 --> 01:14:27.680 it's they weren't gonna I if they tried to pull 1130 01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:31.000 like what South Africa did, you know, the Truth Reconciliation 1131 01:14:31.039 --> 01:14:35.920 Committee or something like that, that things would have deteriorated, 1132 01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:39.760 if not into you know, civil war like it would 1133 01:14:39.800 --> 01:14:42.560 it would it would have permanently gridlocked you know, the government, 1134 01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:46.479 the emergent government, and it would have had no legitimacy. 1135 01:14:46.560 --> 01:14:50.520 But the kind of alibi was always well that was 1136 01:14:50.560 --> 01:14:53.119 the Soviets doing that, you know, and the NKVD was 1137 01:14:53.159 --> 01:14:55.640 doing that, and the or these were just you know outlie, 1138 01:14:55.840 --> 01:14:58.199 these these are outliers. You know, these were violent people 1139 01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:00.439 doing terrible things because this was like a bad time. 1140 01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:06.319 Well interestingly, this was uh well. 1141 01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:08.640 They they tried to blame they always blame it on 1142 01:15:08.680 --> 01:15:10.239 the anarchists. 1143 01:15:10.079 --> 01:15:12.039 That too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the that was 1144 01:15:12.079 --> 01:15:14.319 There was these anarchic cycle pass and you know, they. 1145 01:15:14.920 --> 01:15:16.920 They were the one digging up the you know, the 1146 01:15:16.920 --> 01:15:21.439 famous and taking pictures of them. 1147 01:15:22.079 --> 01:15:25.760 But there was an incident, or there was a series 1148 01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:29.640 of incidents, specifically from November seventh to December fourth, thirty six, 1149 01:15:31.000 --> 01:15:35.399 there's this kind of a peak of of revolutionary violence, okay, uh, 1150 01:15:36.359 --> 01:15:41.760 especially in the cities and uh like the provinces immediately 1151 01:15:41.800 --> 01:15:49.520 abutting the ones uh containing the cities November seventh to 1152 01:15:49.840 --> 01:15:54.239 approximate December fourth and thirty six, a bunch of political 1153 01:15:54.239 --> 01:15:57.840 prisoners helping Madrid jails. They were just spontaneously evacuated, like 1154 01:15:57.880 --> 01:16:03.199 the outlying provinces. And these people were these were all 1155 01:16:03.199 --> 01:16:06.640 political prisoners, okay, like some of them had been imperisrated 1156 01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:08.920 on grounds that they were anti social or something. But 1157 01:16:08.960 --> 01:16:12.319 these these are trumped up charges. These weren't criminals, Okay, 1158 01:16:12.319 --> 01:16:16.840 that I need to make that clear. They were. They 1159 01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:22.000 were evacuated over these weeks on mass and and and 1160 01:16:22.039 --> 01:16:29.119 they were they were executed. They were just exterminated. The 1161 01:16:29.159 --> 01:16:32.880 man responsible at that time for jails in public order 1162 01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:38.600 was a man named Solarius, Santiago Solarius. He was all 1163 01:16:38.600 --> 01:16:40.880 of twenty one years old and man he thirty six, 1164 01:16:42.119 --> 01:16:46.800 and that was part of his alibi, okay, upon return 1165 01:16:47.279 --> 01:16:51.039 from exile with the that Franco, because everybody got you know, 1166 01:16:51.119 --> 01:16:53.640 amnesty like the jury as well as like the facto. 1167 01:16:53.680 --> 01:16:55.920 I mean, this was very much and then he spatter 1168 01:16:56.000 --> 01:16:58.640 to live through it. We'll tell you, I'm sure this 1169 01:16:58.760 --> 01:17:00.600 was very deliberate, you know, like we we've got to 1170 01:17:00.640 --> 01:17:04.760 finesse these bad feelings and let the past become the past, 1171 01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:08.399 you know, which under more ordinary circumstances would probably be 1172 01:17:08.399 --> 01:17:14.680 a laudable What the what Solario's defenders claimed the churse, Well, 1173 01:17:14.720 --> 01:17:17.800 this these are just false propaganda, you know, outright, this 1174 01:17:17.960 --> 01:17:23.439 just didn't happen. But then it's evidence mounted it. Uh 1175 01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:29.399 you know what uh what Solarios is people themselves claimed 1176 01:17:30.039 --> 01:17:31.680 as well as kind of what the regime came to 1177 01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:34.000 claim in like a soft pedaling kind of way, was 1178 01:17:34.039 --> 01:17:36.600 that well, you know there were there were there were 1179 01:17:36.600 --> 01:17:40.720 extraduicial killings that were wrong, but these were arbitrary and caprecious. 1180 01:17:40.800 --> 01:17:45.399 You know, extradusial killings that were were isolated incidents. You know, 1181 01:17:45.399 --> 01:17:51.680 they weren't categorical, they weren't organized well. In two thousand 1182 01:17:51.720 --> 01:17:58.680 and four, historian a guy named Whereverte, Spanish historian UH. 1183 01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:00.520 Kind of a right friendly guy, but like more of 1184 01:18:00.560 --> 01:18:04.039 a conservative, you know, not he wasn't the guy who 1185 01:18:04.079 --> 01:18:06.920 could be just kind of dismissed as some like right winger. 1186 01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:09.720 I mean it's not really that's not grounds of objective 1187 01:18:09.720 --> 01:18:12.399 grounds to dismiss somebody's findings anyway, But you don't say 1188 01:18:12.439 --> 01:18:15.279 what I mean, like, this guy wasn't some idealogue with 1189 01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:20.279 the you know, the kind of milk toast regime is 1190 01:18:20.319 --> 01:18:26.600 the kind that you know can be only kind of 1191 01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:29.239 regime in Europe after the Cold War? Would you can 1192 01:18:29.319 --> 01:18:34.319 kind of dismiss the He began digging into the archives 1193 01:18:34.479 --> 01:18:42.880 of UH, the UH, the Iberian Anarchist Federation and the 1194 01:18:43.000 --> 01:18:49.199 National Confederation of Labor which united at some point prior 1195 01:18:49.239 --> 01:18:53.560 to the onset of hostilities. And there are archives were 1196 01:18:53.600 --> 01:18:56.680 house in Amsterdam where I believe and I'm not trying 1197 01:18:56.680 --> 01:18:59.640 to sit Dutch people. But there's there's a lot of 1198 01:19:01.399 --> 01:19:04.720 there was a lot of communist cadre and revolutionary party 1199 01:19:07.079 --> 01:19:10.960 archives and sensitive documents housed in Holland. Okay, I don't 1200 01:19:10.960 --> 01:19:13.199 know why that is, but that I don't that can't 1201 01:19:13.239 --> 01:19:18.359 be disputed. Okay, that's why these documents are located there. 1202 01:19:23.319 --> 01:19:27.319 Where Verite discovered the literal minutes of meeting, you know, 1203 01:19:27.359 --> 01:19:35.079 between the Iberian Federation field commanders and the nationally federational 1204 01:19:35.159 --> 01:19:39.439 labor like security element, and they literally described a classification 1205 01:19:39.560 --> 01:19:45.079 protocol for who should be exterminated just on categorical terms. Okay, 1206 01:19:45.840 --> 01:19:49.680 And these people who were evacuated, these political detainees, they 1207 01:19:49.720 --> 01:19:52.239 all fell into that category. Right. These are people are 1208 01:19:52.239 --> 01:19:55.520 identified as fascist sympathetic, you know, people who were you know, 1209 01:19:56.039 --> 01:19:58.520 lay people in the calyp Church who had some role 1210 01:19:59.479 --> 01:20:03.960 people just denounced, you know. And this was something of 1211 01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:06.680 a mini scandal, I mean, not just in academic quarters, 1212 01:20:06.680 --> 01:20:11.479 but because even even up two, you know, and unfree 1213 01:20:11.560 --> 01:20:14.720 as occupied Europe is like Spain's kind of a different thing, 1214 01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:18.159 not just because it's not directly occupied by America, but 1215 01:20:18.239 --> 01:20:20.319 it's you know, it wasn't a direct combat into World 1216 01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:24.199 War Two. It's you know, there was more. I'm not 1217 01:20:24.239 --> 01:20:25.720 gonna go as far First of all, I'm not an 1218 01:20:25.760 --> 01:20:28.359 expert in the culture at all, but and I'm certainly 1219 01:20:28.399 --> 01:20:30.439 not gonna go as far as to say that, you know, 1220 01:20:30.520 --> 01:20:33.920 Spain is a more kind of reasoned view of historical matters. 1221 01:20:33.920 --> 01:20:39.000 But it's different, you know, that can't be denied. And 1222 01:20:39.039 --> 01:20:42.279 as I've dived deeper into this, that becomes clear, Like 1223 01:20:42.359 --> 01:20:46.239 the historical controversies of Spain, you know, so they're a 1224 01:20:46.279 --> 01:20:52.880 buttle to this, uh evidence. There's a leftist historian named 1225 01:20:52.920 --> 01:20:58.039 uh anghell Venas Venus claimed like, well, yeah, this happened 1226 01:20:58.239 --> 01:21:01.279 these these dimnutes from the meeting, that not that not 1227 01:21:01.640 --> 01:21:05.840 you know, a forgery. However, He's like, this was we 1228 01:21:05.840 --> 01:21:07.520 were on we were being ordered to do this by 1229 01:21:07.520 --> 01:21:10.199 the Soviet you know, like our predecessors, you know, they 1230 01:21:10.199 --> 01:21:11.960 were being ordered to do this by the Soviet Union. 1231 01:21:12.760 --> 01:21:15.479 And the man primarily colored build was a man named 1232 01:21:15.479 --> 01:21:19.479 Alexander Orlov. Who's Elexander Orlov. Well he was the chief 1233 01:21:19.520 --> 01:21:25.640 of the nkv D in Spain. Okay, so, okay, there's 1234 01:21:25.640 --> 01:21:28.560 problems with an alibi for a lot of reasons. It's like, okay, 1235 01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:31.000 if you're under let's say, let's say that's undredercent correct. Okay, 1236 01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:33.520 so you're under duress. Why was there an nkv D 1237 01:21:33.680 --> 01:21:36.920 in Spain? I mean like there was there literally was 1238 01:21:36.920 --> 01:21:39.880 an mkv D office in Spain, you know, and it 1239 01:21:41.560 --> 01:21:45.319 you know, uh, I mean that raises questions of its own. 1240 01:21:45.399 --> 01:21:47.439 It's like, okay, well they got there somehow are he's saying, 1241 01:21:47.479 --> 01:21:50.560 the Soviet Union invaded Spain. You know, you were powerless 1242 01:21:50.560 --> 01:21:53.840 to resist them, you know, they they you invited the 1243 01:21:53.840 --> 01:21:56.239 men to help you fight against a fascist coup that 1244 01:21:56.319 --> 01:21:58.239 was burgen thing, but then they took over. I mean, 1245 01:21:58.239 --> 01:22:03.039 this isn't it's not as this is preposterous, but I 1246 01:22:03.039 --> 01:22:05.119 mean in some ways it's worse than what what the 1247 01:22:05.119 --> 01:22:09.880 initial allegation was, you know. But it also it cuts 1248 01:22:09.880 --> 01:22:13.359 against to your point, like the alibi for the preceding 1249 01:22:13.720 --> 01:22:17.760 you know, sixty seventy years had been well that was that, 1250 01:22:17.760 --> 01:22:19.640 that was these that was these anarchists who were pragically 1251 01:22:19.680 --> 01:22:21.479 fascists themselves. They had nothing to do with us, and 1252 01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:24.000 these were just crazy people. You know. It's like okay, 1253 01:22:24.039 --> 01:22:26.680 so now not now you were acting under orders of 1254 01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:28.880 the Soviets and not of the Soviets, but the n 1255 01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:32.119 k v D. And like you had Russian officers who 1256 01:22:32.119 --> 01:22:36.159 had you know, who are cadres who who had authority 1257 01:22:36.199 --> 01:22:38.159 over your own people in the field, Like what is this? 1258 01:22:38.720 --> 01:22:41.640 You know, like I weren't weren't you all a bunch 1259 01:22:41.640 --> 01:22:43.720 of once you are a bunch of liberal democrats and 1260 01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:47.880 you know, uh, and that's why and people love freedom 1261 01:22:47.960 --> 01:22:50.159 like joined to go to go to go fight against 1262 01:22:50.239 --> 01:22:52.960 the fascists. I mean, like it's this like, on the 1263 01:22:52.960 --> 01:22:56.760 one hand, on i'd say this, I'd say that this 1264 01:22:56.840 --> 01:22:59.319 guy is not particularly credible, but again it's that in 1265 01:22:59.439 --> 01:23:02.920 some ways that's more incriminating than what than the prima 1266 01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:07.840 fati inferenced one would draw from documents. But it also 1267 01:23:07.920 --> 01:23:11.439 too when I a friend of mine made this point 1268 01:23:11.560 --> 01:23:16.039 when he and I were discussing this, and uh, you know, 1269 01:23:16.119 --> 01:23:18.359 he's he's got a law background, like guy who I mean, 1270 01:23:19.039 --> 01:23:21.119 maybe this is our kind of like bias in common 1271 01:23:21.159 --> 01:23:24.119 for how we approach evidence. But he's like, you know, 1272 01:23:25.319 --> 01:23:29.760 he's like, there's a if you're that cavalier about like 1273 01:23:29.840 --> 01:23:32.520 who you're gonna categorically annihilate? You know, we're talking about 1274 01:23:32.560 --> 01:23:35.359 non combatants and we're not. We're not using euphemisms like 1275 01:23:35.399 --> 01:23:37.960 these people are bandits or these are you know, partisans. 1276 01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:41.319 You know, we're not we're not using the language of 1277 01:23:41.439 --> 01:23:43.560 like me LII four and like saying, well, these people 1278 01:23:43.600 --> 01:23:46.039 are insurgents, like conveniently like leaving out you know, like 1279 01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:49.159 their age, sex or or overall health. You're just like 1280 01:23:49.199 --> 01:23:52.479 literally talking about like, okay, people identified under these categories 1281 01:23:52.520 --> 01:23:55.960 just poltical detainees, you know, there to be terminated, Like 1282 01:23:56.399 --> 01:23:59.640 you're very very confident, uh that this is never gonna 1283 01:23:59.640 --> 01:24:04.359 come to life. You know, it's basically you're you're not 1284 01:24:04.479 --> 01:24:08.840 worried about being taken to task after you know, General 1285 01:24:08.880 --> 01:24:14.960 Franco or you know, or his German allies roll over 1286 01:24:15.039 --> 01:24:17.159 you and and then and then put you on trial 1287 01:24:17.199 --> 01:24:19.439 for this or like you know, put two rounds in 1288 01:24:19.439 --> 01:24:22.520 the back of your head as payback, or just because 1289 01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:25.960 you know you're you've obviously you know, you're obviously an 1290 01:24:25.960 --> 01:24:32.920 irredeemable partisan, you know. And his point was that these 1291 01:24:32.920 --> 01:24:36.000 people had assurances from the Soviet Union from day one, 1292 01:24:36.199 --> 01:24:38.199 like don't worry about it, We're not going to let 1293 01:24:38.279 --> 01:24:44.560 you lose. And I think that's a correct interpretation, Okay, 1294 01:24:44.640 --> 01:24:47.199 I couldn't prove it in a corel of law. But 1295 01:24:49.399 --> 01:24:51.159 you know, one thing you don't find. You don't find 1296 01:24:51.159 --> 01:24:55.439 the Soviet Union like issuing, you know, in ninety thirty nine, 1297 01:24:56.880 --> 01:24:59.960 you know, issuing telegrams to to field commanders about like 1298 01:25:00.119 --> 01:25:04.359 annihilating a non combatants at Cantyan. You don't find Heyrich 1299 01:25:04.439 --> 01:25:08.920 Himmler saying like, you know, hey, by the way, you 1300 01:25:08.960 --> 01:25:12.199 know these people this is a race war, and like 1301 01:25:12.239 --> 01:25:15.039 these people are categorical enemies. So I'm gonna put on paper. 1302 01:25:15.119 --> 01:25:17.239 I just think you should waste them all, you know. 1303 01:25:17.399 --> 01:25:19.720 I mean, this is remarkable for a lot of reasons. Okay, 1304 01:25:21.239 --> 01:25:22.399 I can I ask you a question? 1305 01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:29.680 Yeah, do you think that the Soviet Union was planning 1306 01:25:29.680 --> 01:25:33.199 on winning the war and staying there? I mean Orloff 1307 01:25:33.399 --> 01:25:37.199 was the one who took all of the Spanish gold 1308 01:25:37.239 --> 01:25:40.760 to Moscow, right, and they and they bragged, and Stalin 1309 01:25:40.800 --> 01:25:42.840 bragged about how it was going to be a robbery. 1310 01:25:43.880 --> 01:25:48.079 And then Orloff in thirty eight has to defect because 1311 01:25:49.319 --> 01:25:53.479 Stalin starts his purge of you know, a certain religious group. 1312 01:25:54.199 --> 01:25:58.600 Right. What I think is, I mean, you get the 1313 01:25:58.640 --> 01:26:01.840 way the Soviet Union looked at the I basically agree 1314 01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:05.640 with Suberov's hypothesis. I think jackham Hoffman makes a better 1315 01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:14.199 case for it in purely strategic terms and like practical terms, 1316 01:26:14.239 --> 01:26:18.479 pragmatic terms. Okay, Stalin had to show up to fight 1317 01:26:18.560 --> 01:26:21.279 in Spain, otherwise he would have lost all credibility, as 1318 01:26:21.359 --> 01:26:25.520 you know, like the Soviet people would have lost all credibility, 1319 01:26:25.520 --> 01:26:28.079 as like you know that the vanguard of like the 1320 01:26:28.119 --> 01:26:31.840 World Revolution and like as we discussed before, and it 1321 01:26:31.880 --> 01:26:36.119 kind of currents wey capacity people misunderstand socialism in one country. 1322 01:26:36.399 --> 01:26:38.560 And what Stalin was trying, what he meant by that 1323 01:26:38.640 --> 01:26:41.880 in literal terms, and what he was trying to project 1324 01:26:41.920 --> 01:26:44.319 by that in a sort of dog whistle away, Like 1325 01:26:44.600 --> 01:26:47.119 he wasn't saying like we have abandoned the World Revolution 1326 01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:49.520 or that like we are some kind of like antarctic 1327 01:26:49.600 --> 01:26:52.079 inward looking state, like a giant North Korea. You have 1328 01:26:52.159 --> 01:26:55.560 not saying those things at all. Okay, You've got to 1329 01:26:55.560 --> 01:26:58.159 be pretty well versed to releasing the rudimentary capacity. You've 1330 01:26:58.159 --> 01:27:01.520 got to understand like what orthan like Leninism is to 1331 01:27:01.600 --> 01:27:05.600 understand what he was saying, and you've got to understand 1332 01:27:05.640 --> 01:27:09.640 why the Soviet people like what on what basis they 1333 01:27:09.680 --> 01:27:12.279 were claiming, you know, to to be like the first 1334 01:27:12.279 --> 01:27:15.319 among nations, like in the Social Revolution. That's the connext 1335 01:27:15.399 --> 01:27:19.239 with which to understand it. Spain was where like the 1336 01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:24.439 battle lines were drawn. Spain is where you know, the 1337 01:27:24.439 --> 01:27:28.479 Bolsheviks collided, you know with the true like reactionary enemy 1338 01:27:28.920 --> 01:27:31.640 like the Soviets had to show up to fight. What 1339 01:27:31.720 --> 01:27:33.800 I think Stalin thought he could do was he thought 1340 01:27:33.880 --> 01:27:38.039 the NKVD people like or a of people like Eric Milk. 1341 01:27:39.680 --> 01:27:43.239 He thought that basically like uh, you know, he could 1342 01:27:43.319 --> 01:27:47.520 arm and equip uh the Reds other thing they needed. Uh. 1343 01:27:47.760 --> 01:27:50.600 The Nationalists didn't really have a pot to piss in until 1344 01:27:50.720 --> 01:27:56.600 uh Milch and Gary came to rescue, you know, after uh, 1345 01:27:56.960 --> 01:28:01.720 after Canari's uh act is emissary for Franco's people, you know, 1346 01:28:01.800 --> 01:28:03.600 and then and then the Reds had a problem. But 1347 01:28:04.319 --> 01:28:07.359 you know, the view from Moscow was, uh, you know, 1348 01:28:07.479 --> 01:28:11.439 the the kind of revolutionaries, you know, the Falanges, uh, 1349 01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:15.239 the national Catholics, the Carlos, They're gonna get smashed. We're 1350 01:28:15.239 --> 01:28:16.840 gonna mop up. And if we have to stack a 1351 01:28:16.840 --> 01:28:19.760 million bodies up, a priest non as Falangist and anybody 1352 01:28:19.800 --> 01:28:23.319 else who's not with the program will do that. The 1353 01:28:23.359 --> 01:28:27.640 Germans are then gonna freak the fuck out, you know, 1354 01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:32.319 uh and anything, especially because uh, you know Spain and 1355 01:28:32.399 --> 01:28:36.439 France it already like openly declared you know, sympathy if 1356 01:28:36.439 --> 01:28:39.960 not you know, allegiance, you know with the with the Reds, 1357 01:28:40.439 --> 01:28:42.680 that was going to exacerbate, you know, like the war 1358 01:28:42.720 --> 01:28:47.279 in the West that Stalin always believe was imminent. The uh, 1359 01:28:47.479 --> 01:28:51.199 the Germans are gonna get bogged down like they did 1360 01:28:51.239 --> 01:28:56.560 in nineteen fourteen, as like Germany bleeds white, like Stalin 1361 01:28:56.600 --> 01:28:58.560 and the Red Army was gonna like smash from the 1362 01:28:58.760 --> 01:29:02.439 through from the east. You know. That was like ideally 1363 01:29:02.520 --> 01:29:06.399 would have happened, you know, but it wasn't. But just 1364 01:29:06.479 --> 01:29:10.600 Stalin wasn't ready yet. And that's that's that's something that 1365 01:29:10.600 --> 01:29:15.840 the non aggression pack owes to also because there's this 1366 01:29:15.920 --> 01:29:20.439 odd situation where I mean once once the Vermont actually 1367 01:29:20.479 --> 01:29:21.840 did deploy and like I said, we'll get into like 1368 01:29:21.920 --> 01:29:25.840 Montoma's uh like ground element too, which is fascinating. Like 1369 01:29:25.880 --> 01:29:28.000 the Germans were the Germans were fighting in Spain, it 1370 01:29:28.039 --> 01:29:30.199 wasn't just you know, it was just like loof off 1371 01:29:30.359 --> 01:29:32.960 like hot shots, like flying a handle with sorties, like 1372 01:29:33.560 --> 01:29:35.760 you know, you had very much elements like going into 1373 01:29:35.800 --> 01:29:39.199 ground action against the communists they were killing Russians, Okay, 1374 01:29:39.199 --> 01:29:46.000 and vice versa. Potentially that's explosive, you know, but again 1375 01:29:46.039 --> 01:29:48.920 too like a non aggression pack, only only as a 1376 01:29:48.960 --> 01:29:51.319 context that you're careening towards war anyway, I mean like 1377 01:29:51.399 --> 01:29:55.119 it Otherwise it doesn't make sense, but it I believe 1378 01:29:55.159 --> 01:30:00.840 that was Stalin's notion. But it's also the uh, the 1379 01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:04.239 Soviets for the durationem of their existence. I mean, people 1380 01:30:04.319 --> 01:30:06.039 like like to look down in the Russians and like 1381 01:30:06.079 --> 01:30:08.079 make fun of them and stuff, and I mean whatever, 1382 01:30:08.239 --> 01:30:10.840 Like I I'm not gonna open up some kind of 1383 01:30:10.840 --> 01:30:13.960 general general discussion about like the character of Russians or whatever. 1384 01:30:14.000 --> 01:30:17.199 But they the Russians are serious people, man, and like 1385 01:30:17.279 --> 01:30:20.560 they like whate their shortcomings are, like in war in peace, 1386 01:30:21.359 --> 01:30:24.520 they're really really good at intriguing and they're really really 1387 01:30:24.560 --> 01:30:30.560 good at insinuating their people into them into proxy uh 1388 01:30:30.960 --> 01:30:34.239 elements that serve their interests and kind of like fortifying 1389 01:30:34.279 --> 01:30:38.399 and shaping those interests the way they want them to develop. Okay. 1390 01:30:38.600 --> 01:30:41.359 I mean examples are Legion. Okay, like right until the 1391 01:30:41.520 --> 01:30:44.800 end they were doing this in in you know, in 1392 01:30:44.880 --> 01:30:48.039 nicaraugu and I'll sell it or you know like they 1393 01:30:48.199 --> 01:30:51.880 which frankly was incredible because that was that that would 1394 01:30:51.880 --> 01:30:55.199 have been, that would have that would have been like 1395 01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:57.319 the feather in their cap, you know, like, hey, we've 1396 01:30:57.319 --> 01:31:00.479 got you know, we've we've got actual like us Lennon 1397 01:31:00.520 --> 01:31:03.399 as client regimes. You know, I got on the American continent. 1398 01:31:03.439 --> 01:31:05.439 There's nothing America can do about it, you know, without 1399 01:31:05.479 --> 01:31:08.279 waging some kind of jungle war with you know, half 1400 01:31:08.319 --> 01:31:11.399 of half the country is in the Panama zone. But 1401 01:31:12.800 --> 01:31:14.920 he hasn't mad like That's that's what I believe the 1402 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:21.399 Soviet notion was. And when when the Reds got the 1403 01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:23.399 first of all in Germany came in like in the 1404 01:31:23.680 --> 01:31:26.159 with when it deployed in depth the way it did, 1405 01:31:26.600 --> 01:31:29.720 I don't think Stalin got very worried. I don't think 1406 01:31:29.760 --> 01:31:31.520 he knew that the Germans were capable of that. I 1407 01:31:31.560 --> 01:31:33.920 don't think a lot of people did. And plus it 1408 01:31:33.960 --> 01:31:36.399 was that's when Gering was like his best. Arguably he 1409 01:31:36.439 --> 01:31:39.159 was an attic then and he but he he still 1410 01:31:39.159 --> 01:31:41.399 had it together like Erard Millerts, who I think was 1411 01:31:41.439 --> 01:31:43.840 the best. He was Eron Mills is one of the 1412 01:31:43.880 --> 01:31:46.920 best field marshals the Germans had. The guy was like 1413 01:31:46.960 --> 01:31:50.039 a literal genius, you know, and he later like he's 1414 01:31:50.039 --> 01:31:54.560 the guy relieved the beleaguer Hrmacht and Norway and like 1415 01:31:54.600 --> 01:31:58.079 literally saved the day, you know, like hevon Toma was 1416 01:31:58.079 --> 01:31:59.439 one of the was one of the was one of 1417 01:31:59.439 --> 01:32:03.079 the armies best freaking commanders. Like these guys, these weren't 1418 01:32:03.119 --> 01:32:06.479 like second Raiders who were going to fight in Spain. 1419 01:32:06.600 --> 01:32:09.399 And you know, these were these guys who like the 1420 01:32:09.439 --> 01:32:12.000 Kareama like they hear on the Loofaffa, you know, like 1421 01:32:12.039 --> 01:32:15.199 at that point, and they they they they had a 1422 01:32:15.239 --> 01:32:17.479 they very much had a sense of h and they're 1423 01:32:17.520 --> 01:32:19.520 very gung hole guys. You know, they're like, hey, we're 1424 01:32:19.520 --> 01:32:20.920 going to fight the Rets. You know, We're not there's 1425 01:32:20.920 --> 01:32:23.399 in some stupid war rope into against France because like 1426 01:32:23.439 --> 01:32:25.640 we're always dealing with the French or something or it's 1427 01:32:25.680 --> 01:32:28.239 not you know, it's not making meat and border dispute, 1428 01:32:28.319 --> 01:32:30.399 like we're fighting the communists, Like this is it, you know, 1429 01:32:30.479 --> 01:32:33.239 like this is this is uh, this is our chance 1430 01:32:33.319 --> 01:32:36.159 to to smash these people, you know, like after they've 1431 01:32:36.159 --> 01:32:38.479 been racking up victories, you know, for the last last 1432 01:32:38.479 --> 01:32:44.119 twenty years. You know it, but it's hard to say. 1433 01:32:44.119 --> 01:32:46.399 I mean, Stalin playthings close to the chest. I mean 1434 01:32:48.640 --> 01:32:51.119 what Stalin did say, and like we've got into both 1435 01:32:51.119 --> 01:32:54.880 in the last episode on the Spanish War. But you know, 1436 01:32:54.960 --> 01:32:58.800 in our UH, in our Second World War series throughout 1437 01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:02.399 the nineteen thirties, Stalin addressing UH, like particularly cadres and 1438 01:33:02.439 --> 01:33:04.760 general officers in the Red Army and kind of like 1439 01:33:05.399 --> 01:33:09.119 feeling them out, you know, as as a group, you know, 1440 01:33:09.560 --> 01:33:11.800 to see like really if they were like battle ready, 1441 01:33:11.960 --> 01:33:16.880 you know, in a general war against Germany. I mean, 1442 01:33:16.920 --> 01:33:19.439 Germany's always like Russia's proble opponent, but you know what 1443 01:33:19.439 --> 01:33:22.920 I mean, like in more concrete terms. But then it 1444 01:33:22.960 --> 01:33:25.720 was after about it was about nineteen thirty seven, ninety 1445 01:33:25.800 --> 01:33:29.000 thirty eight that like suddenly Stealins are talking about like, 1446 01:33:29.159 --> 01:33:32.439 look like you know, our doctrine, our our political doction 1447 01:33:32.600 --> 01:33:34.880 in our battle doctrine is anonymous, you know, like we 1448 01:33:34.880 --> 01:33:37.680 we we never fight defensively, like we always fight on 1449 01:33:37.760 --> 01:33:40.760 foreign soil unless like you know, we're we're affecting you know, 1450 01:33:40.800 --> 01:33:43.840 like a fighting retreat because we're expstentially threatened, you know, 1451 01:33:44.000 --> 01:33:47.920 like the uh, like you know, like the Bolshevik cause 1452 01:33:48.039 --> 01:33:50.920 is inextricably linked, you know, to the to the Russian 1453 01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:54.720 national ambitions. We started talking like a world word, you know, 1454 01:33:54.760 --> 01:33:58.439 we started talking to uh, you know, like you started. 1455 01:33:58.479 --> 01:34:01.880 He started issuing these like procles from on high, you know, 1456 01:34:02.840 --> 01:34:05.560 just to Soviet people, you know about like we've got 1457 01:34:05.800 --> 01:34:07.760 you know, we can we can withstand any hardship and 1458 01:34:08.479 --> 01:34:11.640 you know we we we can never like lose lose 1459 01:34:11.640 --> 01:34:13.960 our faith and in the Communist cause, like no matter 1460 01:34:14.000 --> 01:34:16.159 how grim things are for us moving forward, It's like, 1461 01:34:16.159 --> 01:34:17.920 what was he talking about? He's not He's not He's 1462 01:34:17.920 --> 01:34:20.520 not talking about like breadlines getting longer. He's not talking 1463 01:34:20.520 --> 01:34:23.000 about it being really cold, mixt winner you know, he's 1464 01:34:23.199 --> 01:34:27.039 it's obvious what he's talking about. And it and Gearing 1465 01:34:30.439 --> 01:34:35.159 it was thirty seven. I think when Gearing as uh, 1466 01:34:36.359 --> 01:34:38.079 you know, he he went with like the loof off 1467 01:34:38.119 --> 01:34:41.680 of like military liaison you know, to these to these 1468 01:34:41.760 --> 01:34:44.239 to this aircraft factory in the you're alls, and like 1469 01:34:44.359 --> 01:34:48.159 the single aircraft factory had like quadrupled the capacity of 1470 01:34:48.199 --> 01:34:51.159 like all German aircraft factories combined. Like I mean, you 1471 01:34:51.199 --> 01:34:53.439 don't you don't build something like that like unless they're 1472 01:34:53.479 --> 01:34:56.359 mobilizing for war, you know, I mean it's so I 1473 01:34:56.439 --> 01:35:01.920 mean taken together it and with storians, including Bevar, they'll 1474 01:35:01.920 --> 01:35:03.880 always say like, well, of course the Soviet you know, 1475 01:35:03.920 --> 01:35:07.279 the Soviets, they tried to cast the war. They could 1476 01:35:07.279 --> 01:35:10.439 try to guess warfare generally is like a schoolyard fight, like, oh, well, 1477 01:35:10.600 --> 01:35:12.680 you know, the Germans struck first. It's like, I mean, 1478 01:35:12.680 --> 01:35:14.960 it's like saying that, like as like calling somebody who 1479 01:35:14.960 --> 01:35:18.159 moves first and chess the aggressor okay, like it doesn't 1480 01:35:18.439 --> 01:35:22.319 the Soviets, there's no such thing. If you've got if 1481 01:35:22.319 --> 01:35:24.720 you've got five million men out their arms and you know, 1482 01:35:24.760 --> 01:35:28.479 you're building military aircraft by the hundreds, like there's not 1483 01:35:28.560 --> 01:35:30.880 there's not a defensive purpose for those. I mean, there's 1484 01:35:31.359 --> 01:35:33.399 defense and an offensive war doesn't make sense anyway, but 1485 01:35:33.479 --> 01:35:36.880 it all that matters and strategic planning, his capabilities, and 1486 01:35:37.439 --> 01:35:40.760 what Stalin was doing was he was amassing he was 1487 01:35:40.760 --> 01:35:43.680 amassing the mightiest military force the world has ever seen. 1488 01:35:44.359 --> 01:35:46.960 And then made the point once once the stories developed 1489 01:35:46.960 --> 01:35:49.359 the bomb, even after the devastation of World War two, 1490 01:35:49.760 --> 01:35:51.720 I believe Stalin was the single most powerful man who's 1491 01:35:51.720 --> 01:35:56.439 ever lived. Okay, people can't conceptualize that these days, I 1492 01:35:56.479 --> 01:36:04.399 don't think. Okay, but that's what uh, that's what I think. Uh, 1493 01:36:04.600 --> 01:36:06.319 that's that's what I think we might understand it was. 1494 01:36:06.359 --> 01:36:10.520 But it's also you know, it bears noticing too that 1495 01:36:13.079 --> 01:36:17.359 there was obviously, you know, like during uh uh you know, 1496 01:36:17.399 --> 01:36:21.159 the Munich Soviet and during link the Weimar years. I 1497 01:36:21.199 --> 01:36:24.239 know that, like Trotsky's forces had gotten spanked in Poland, 1498 01:36:24.800 --> 01:36:27.760 and obviously the Soviets were like arming those cadres like 1499 01:36:27.880 --> 01:36:31.640 cause you know, havoc in Germany. But it's not you 1500 01:36:31.680 --> 01:36:34.359 know that the n KVD wasn't deploying to Munich, you know, 1501 01:36:34.439 --> 01:36:38.000 like I mean, it wasn't like the Soviets were, regardless 1502 01:36:38.000 --> 01:36:43.319 of the fact that you know, again, uh, Soviet Soviet 1503 01:36:43.439 --> 01:36:46.760 control is invoked as an alibi by apologists for communist 1504 01:36:46.800 --> 01:36:51.920 violence in Spain, regardless of that, and regardless of degree 1505 01:36:51.960 --> 01:36:55.479 of culpability and relative or absolute terms between the Red 1506 01:36:55.520 --> 01:36:59.800 Spaniards in between the Soviet cadres, the Soviet Union had 1507 01:37:00.359 --> 01:37:03.880 an actual NKVD branch there, you know, they had it 1508 01:37:04.079 --> 01:37:07.159 beyond like nominal like political representation just to be like 1509 01:37:07.199 --> 01:37:10.560 relaying to Moscow the battlefield situation was, you know, like this, 1510 01:37:10.560 --> 01:37:13.640 this was not normal for the Soviet Union, and I 1511 01:37:13.680 --> 01:37:16.039 realized the Soviet news and the abnormal state. But in 1512 01:37:16.079 --> 01:37:20.479 terms of its power, projection, tendencies and strategy, it this 1513 01:37:20.560 --> 01:37:23.439 was an outlier in terms of how it usually behaved. 1514 01:37:23.560 --> 01:37:28.239 So you know, again I I think like a lawyer 1515 01:37:28.479 --> 01:37:30.920 in terms of the evidence I favor and in terms 1516 01:37:30.920 --> 01:37:35.399 of the way I calculate intention, particularly in war and 1517 01:37:35.479 --> 01:37:41.119 peace terms. But motive means and motive that means an opportunity. 1518 01:37:42.159 --> 01:37:45.039 It tends to be how you convinced the try refect 1519 01:37:45.119 --> 01:37:53.159 of scientier. The court room is not uh bound by 1520 01:37:53.319 --> 01:37:56.520 formal logic or anything. But we're talking about human affairs. 1521 01:37:56.680 --> 01:37:58.600 There is something to that, you know, whether you're talking 1522 01:37:58.640 --> 01:38:02.840 about individual men or were at scale. And again I 1523 01:38:02.840 --> 01:38:05.840 I I don't think this can be denied. And even 1524 01:38:06.600 --> 01:38:11.159 even where their conspiguous absence of some of this, some 1525 01:38:11.279 --> 01:38:15.960 of this data of an entry data. Again, the Soviets 1526 01:38:15.960 --> 01:38:18.960 couldn't afford to not fight in Spain did over the 1527 01:38:19.000 --> 01:38:22.479 Third Reich. But even more so for the Soviets, the 1528 01:38:23.720 --> 01:38:29.760 uh did sit out World War One, and that interestingly, 1529 01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:35.399 that that that contributed in in oblique ways to the 1530 01:38:35.439 --> 01:38:39.560 political situation in the thirties, Spain was a weird state. 1531 01:38:39.600 --> 01:38:41.319 Man Like. On the one hand, I mean, Spain had 1532 01:38:41.359 --> 01:38:44.399 an African empire, you know, they had They couldn't be 1533 01:38:44.439 --> 01:38:47.079 said that Spain wasn't like a place of high culture. 1534 01:38:47.760 --> 01:38:50.800 But they became this, you know, and again like they 1535 01:38:51.039 --> 01:38:53.439 literally were like the first truly like national state in 1536 01:38:53.479 --> 01:39:02.199 Europe despite their kind of inextricable relationship to the Roman 1537 01:39:02.319 --> 01:39:06.399 Church in political terms, but they were something they weren't 1538 01:39:06.399 --> 01:39:08.479 are something of an inward looking people. You know, they 1539 01:39:08.520 --> 01:39:11.479 weren't practicing a global politique or even really a European 1540 01:39:11.520 --> 01:39:16.720 power politique, you know, like they there became an an 1541 01:39:16.800 --> 01:39:19.720 unprecedented demand for Spanish goods during World War One because 1542 01:39:19.720 --> 01:39:22.199 they were a neutral, but the influx of capital like 1543 01:39:22.319 --> 01:39:24.880 caused all kinds of problems with they're already you know, 1544 01:39:25.000 --> 01:39:30.640 kind of troubled currencies. It swelled the cities, which I 1545 01:39:30.680 --> 01:39:36.880 mean is this the cities were were were you know, 1546 01:39:36.880 --> 01:39:39.000 they were the repository of red sympathy. But it's not 1547 01:39:39.000 --> 01:39:40.560 as clear cut as people think, man. I mean, there 1548 01:39:40.600 --> 01:39:44.600 was national districts in Madrid and in Barcelona, and uh 1549 01:39:45.039 --> 01:39:46.319 there was also I mean, there were there was a 1550 01:39:47.399 --> 01:39:50.840 there were there's people, there's guys, there's Catalan secessionists. We're 1551 01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:53.079 just like catching their wag into the Communists because like 1552 01:39:53.119 --> 01:39:54.840 they they thought that, hey, if we fight and like 1553 01:39:54.880 --> 01:39:57.399 issue this is our demand, you know too, like the cadres, 1554 01:39:57.399 --> 01:39:58.720 they'll have to give it to us. I mean it 1555 01:39:58.800 --> 01:40:02.039 was it was kind of a alligated pastiche. But another thing, 1556 01:40:02.039 --> 01:40:04.560 guys like Beeborn mist understand it makes the point that 1557 01:40:04.600 --> 01:40:08.560 he's like, well, you know, why, why why why Spain 1558 01:40:08.640 --> 01:40:11.079 gets still behind the Gallic church and gets so outraged 1559 01:40:11.119 --> 01:40:14.159 at the mask of a clergy. Only twenty percent of 1560 01:40:14.199 --> 01:40:16.479 people went to church. It's like you can't you can't 1561 01:40:16.520 --> 01:40:20.319 adjudicate like the kind of the conceptual spirit for like 1562 01:40:20.319 --> 01:40:24.039 a better word of a country and a culture, like 1563 01:40:24.119 --> 01:40:26.920 by how many people are like sitting in pews on Sunday. 1564 01:40:27.520 --> 01:40:31.119 Like even the way the Communists framed their propaganda was 1565 01:40:31.119 --> 01:40:33.720 like Catholic. It was like a perverted iteration of it. 1566 01:40:34.279 --> 01:40:38.159 But I mean, the the Inquisition didn't end until eighteen fourteen, 1567 01:40:38.239 --> 01:40:44.279 eighteen fifteen, and the Catholic Church was basically the courts 1568 01:40:44.760 --> 01:40:49.479 up until then. You know, they weren't they weren't the executioners, 1569 01:40:49.920 --> 01:40:51.760 but yeah, they were the court. Yeah yeah. 1570 01:40:51.760 --> 01:40:54.119 And it's also even a guy who like even in 1571 01:40:54.159 --> 01:40:56.000 a guy the only time he'd been in church was 1572 01:40:56.039 --> 01:40:59.039 like when he was baptized and like his mom's funeral 1573 01:40:59.520 --> 01:41:01.560 like that, I would like view the world in like 1574 01:41:01.640 --> 01:41:03.920 Catholic terms, And he'd look at the church as like, 1575 01:41:04.359 --> 01:41:07.680 you know, kind of the the instantation of like, you know, 1576 01:41:07.800 --> 01:41:12.000 God's authority on earth, you know, like it's not there's 1577 01:41:12.359 --> 01:41:14.439 I don't know Bieber's background. I bet that like a 1578 01:41:14.479 --> 01:41:16.399 lot of Tories is like a Church of England type 1579 01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:21.520 and he he doesn't really understand like like faith. It's 1580 01:41:21.560 --> 01:41:25.000 like a conceptual sort of orientation. He probably use Americans 1581 01:41:25.039 --> 01:41:26.880 as like a bunch of rednecks like me who like 1582 01:41:26.920 --> 01:41:29.039 read the Bible all day and or idiots, and he 1583 01:41:29.119 --> 01:41:31.399 use Catholics as like well they some of them don't 1584 01:41:31.399 --> 01:41:33.840 even go to church, like not not even not understanding that. 1585 01:41:33.880 --> 01:41:37.680 It's like it's something that's like interstitially bound up with 1586 01:41:37.760 --> 01:41:39.960 like your entire sense of culture, like you know, I mean, 1587 01:41:39.960 --> 01:41:43.079 you understand this, but it's it didn't matter that, uh, 1588 01:41:44.279 --> 01:41:47.239 it didn't it didn't matter that like most that that 1589 01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:49.680 that most people weren't going to church. I mean it's 1590 01:41:50.119 --> 01:41:53.439 but it's also too I mean even if I mean 1591 01:41:53.479 --> 01:41:57.479 even if uh you know, the action French say, uh 1592 01:41:58.239 --> 01:42:00.479 during their zenith, you know, they kind of they got 1593 01:42:00.640 --> 01:42:03.560 they got kind of edged out by like later like 1594 01:42:03.680 --> 01:42:11.319 fascist and nationalists, uh militias in France. But you know, 1595 01:42:11.359 --> 01:42:13.760 they they always made the point that like we're we're 1596 01:42:13.840 --> 01:42:15.960 like a secular movement, but that doesn't mean you can 1597 01:42:15.960 --> 01:42:19.079 attack the Mother Church, you know. I mean they they 1598 01:42:19.279 --> 01:42:21.920 were willing to go to war to like protect uh 1599 01:42:22.479 --> 01:42:25.800 you know, the Roman Church as uh as like the 1600 01:42:25.840 --> 01:42:28.720 state religion of of of like what they viewed as 1601 01:42:28.760 --> 01:42:32.159 like you know, the the ideal like French Republic moving forward. 1602 01:42:32.720 --> 01:42:35.600 You know, like I'm trying to say, like Italy, where 1603 01:42:35.640 --> 01:42:37.840 a lot of people did go to church, but it'll 1604 01:42:37.960 --> 01:42:40.520 like the Kingdom of Italy under a Duce was basically 1605 01:42:40.600 --> 01:42:43.319 a secular society. You know, it didn't matter that like 1606 01:42:43.399 --> 01:42:45.720 you know, half of Italians were like in church every Sunday, 1607 01:42:46.279 --> 01:42:48.159 you know, I mean, it's it was totally different. And 1608 01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:50.960 it's you know, like I said, it's it's something of 1609 01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:54.960 a it's something of a blind spot. It's it's somewhat 1610 01:42:54.960 --> 01:42:57.960 political and like deliberate and ideological, but it's something it's 1611 01:42:58.039 --> 01:42:59.840 part of it too. It's like a cultural blind spot 1612 01:43:00.680 --> 01:43:03.039 in this thing like too like it. You know, it's 1613 01:43:03.039 --> 01:43:06.479 been redacted from this druga record that there's a huge 1614 01:43:06.560 --> 01:43:09.800 outpouring of uh support for the nationalists cause in Ireland 1615 01:43:10.520 --> 01:43:14.600 and uh the regime there of vale Era, like he 1616 01:43:14.640 --> 01:43:18.760 had a problem he had to finish public opinion when 1617 01:43:18.960 --> 01:43:22.079 I mean Ireland, just like the cleared outright neutrality on 1618 01:43:22.079 --> 01:43:29.000 the on the question m a lot of even a 1619 01:43:29.039 --> 01:43:32.279 lot of voters, you know, uh in the Republic who 1620 01:43:32.319 --> 01:43:34.399 are basically like liberals, like why aren't you going to 1621 01:43:34.399 --> 01:43:36.319 defend the church? What's the matter with you? You know? And 1622 01:43:36.439 --> 01:43:38.520 uh and the blue shirts, you know, Duffy's blue shirts 1623 01:43:38.560 --> 01:43:40.479 mean two and three thousand men signed up to go 1624 01:43:40.560 --> 01:43:42.600 fight on the nationalist side, like all irishmen, I mean 1625 01:43:42.680 --> 01:43:46.239 Irons entire Ireland is a tiny country. That's significant, you know. 1626 01:43:46.279 --> 01:43:49.960 And in America, Cathlic media they give up signatures of 1627 01:43:50.039 --> 01:43:52.439 school kids, you know, like they they got something like 1628 01:43:52.479 --> 01:43:54.720 a million and a half signatures, like kids like progo 1629 01:43:54.760 --> 01:43:57.239 school kids you know, saying like mister Rosevelt, while let 1630 01:43:57.279 --> 01:43:59.760 it while we we love our sisters and and and 1631 01:43:59.760 --> 01:44:02.479 and freeze, why why letting them be murdered by communists? 1632 01:44:02.880 --> 01:44:05.199 You know, I mean like that, and and obviously like 1633 01:44:05.239 --> 01:44:07.079 New Geork types like I was just you know that 1634 01:44:07.079 --> 01:44:09.920 that that's you know that that's that that's exploitative, and 1635 01:44:09.960 --> 01:44:15.359 that's that's just you know, propaganda by by by atrocity story. 1636 01:44:15.680 --> 01:44:17.880 But I mean it's what he's saying that this wasn't happening. 1637 01:44:17.920 --> 01:44:20.039 I mean, you know, the the Gallix Church doesn't have 1638 01:44:20.039 --> 01:44:23.079 its own army. Stalin's famously said that, Okay, I mean 1639 01:44:23.159 --> 01:44:27.840 like if you uh, the the church militant, it has 1640 01:44:27.880 --> 01:44:30.199 to defend it, you know, I mean, and that's it, 1641 01:44:30.800 --> 01:44:32.880 you know, as well as like as other as well 1642 01:44:32.920 --> 01:44:35.680 as other you know, as well as other patriotic elements 1643 01:44:35.680 --> 01:44:39.960 and and Orthodox guys and and you know in German 1644 01:44:40.039 --> 01:44:44.439 prads who you know, realized what the stakes were. But 1645 01:44:44.479 --> 01:44:48.840 it's also during the Great during World War One, there 1646 01:44:49.560 --> 01:44:53.880 there became h there became like a deep uh that's 1647 01:44:53.880 --> 01:44:58.039 when the divisions originally uh kind of became like insurmountable. 1648 01:44:58.720 --> 01:45:01.680 Like it wasn't until the nineteen thre already, it wasn't 1649 01:45:01.720 --> 01:45:03.600 until like the night that even the nine thirty sixth election, 1650 01:45:03.840 --> 01:45:07.000 you actually had candidates for parliament saying, you know, like 1651 01:45:07.239 --> 01:45:10.279 we will not accept you know, like uh a nationalist 1652 01:45:10.319 --> 01:45:12.119 victory at the polls, like, well we will go to 1653 01:45:12.199 --> 01:45:21.439 war and vice versa. But the uh people uh military officers, UH, farmers, 1654 01:45:21.960 --> 01:45:25.439 you know, people uh like clergy, people like laymen, we're 1655 01:45:25.439 --> 01:45:28.640 activing the church, they tended to side with uh like 1656 01:45:28.840 --> 01:45:32.199 kaiser Reich, you know, and uh and and these kind 1657 01:45:32.199 --> 01:45:35.680 of and these guys like urbanite uh Franco file types 1658 01:45:35.760 --> 01:45:39.640 like tend to decide with uh, you know, with with 1659 01:45:39.640 --> 01:45:43.039 with London, Paris, which is interesting. It's uh. I mean 1660 01:45:43.079 --> 01:45:44.640 I I was making the point that, like the war 1661 01:45:44.720 --> 01:45:46.600 in Syria, one of the reasons, I mean, Sod's a 1662 01:45:46.640 --> 01:45:48.640 hero anyway, I mean, he's just a great man. But 1663 01:45:49.039 --> 01:45:50.720 it was imperative for people on the right, you know, 1664 01:45:50.800 --> 01:45:55.359 to to back Syria anyway they could, you know, in theater, 1665 01:45:55.640 --> 01:45:57.880 uh and as well as you know, people in a 1666 01:45:57.880 --> 01:46:00.560 position to like send money to to uh you know, 1667 01:46:00.640 --> 01:46:05.600 the the the Syrians defending themselves in their gene from terrorism. 1668 01:46:05.760 --> 01:46:08.439 You know, because that that that that that that that 1669 01:46:08.560 --> 01:46:10.680 was not to the same degree and not to the same. 1670 01:46:11.960 --> 01:46:14.800 Not it's not impactful in the way the Spanish War was. 1671 01:46:14.840 --> 01:46:17.319 But that's you better believe that was a was a 1672 01:46:17.319 --> 01:46:22.000 war of zechdieist in ideology and thank god you thank god, 1673 01:46:22.319 --> 01:46:25.920 you know, a sad defeated is Alamic terrorism. You know, 1674 01:46:26.000 --> 01:46:29.680 that's brought to his brought to his own soil by 1675 01:46:29.800 --> 01:46:32.479 by America and Israel. I mean, that's always the case. 1676 01:46:32.520 --> 01:46:35.319 I mean, the you can tell, you can tell it 1677 01:46:35.359 --> 01:46:36.920 was on the right the wrong side of the things 1678 01:46:36.960 --> 01:46:38.880 by the by the Ukraine War. And that's like a 1679 01:46:38.920 --> 01:46:41.680 more that that that's a ridiculous example because it's literally 1680 01:46:41.760 --> 01:46:44.079 just like this, it's literally just kind of like a 1681 01:46:44.199 --> 01:46:48.720 human trafficking like Zionis mafia like propped up by you know, 1682 01:46:48.800 --> 01:46:52.600 these like degenerates in Washington, you know, and they're they're 1683 01:46:52.640 --> 01:46:55.199 just like there's like provoking a conflict against like all 1684 01:46:55.199 --> 01:46:58.079 strategic reason. But the point is, like anybody, you know, 1685 01:46:58.119 --> 01:47:00.680 you better believed that's an ideological war and that you know, 1686 01:47:00.760 --> 01:47:05.000 that's that that's like the designated battleground for you know, 1687 01:47:05.119 --> 01:47:09.159 the uh between uh the opposing camps that constitute you know, 1688 01:47:09.279 --> 01:47:13.760 both sides of the of the Zeitgeisser Press I would 1689 01:47:13.760 --> 01:47:17.079 have been far afield today on on and what I 1690 01:47:17.079 --> 01:47:19.760 wanted to talk about. I hope that was okay with people. 1691 01:47:20.800 --> 01:47:23.279 I got, I got, I got, I got you off 1692 01:47:23.319 --> 01:47:27.239 track with the uh with the question about the goal 1693 01:47:27.399 --> 01:47:28.840 that no, no. 1694 01:47:28.159 --> 01:47:32.760 No, no, that's an import that's that's a fascinating uh. 1695 01:47:33.239 --> 01:47:35.560 That's like something like Frederick ForSight thro like John McCurry 1696 01:47:35.560 --> 01:47:39.000 would have written about it. Took a fascinating little little 1697 01:47:40.880 --> 01:47:45.079 side note. What I want to get into, Uh, I'd 1698 01:47:45.079 --> 01:47:46.920 like to get a little bit deeper and like theory. 1699 01:47:47.000 --> 01:47:48.560 I mean, I know it's like my wheelhouse, and I 1700 01:47:48.560 --> 01:47:50.479 don't subject people to it. I think it's boring, But 1701 01:47:51.000 --> 01:47:52.279 I want to get a little bit into like the 1702 01:47:52.319 --> 01:47:55.039 mice for next time, and like how like the counter 1703 01:47:55.319 --> 01:48:01.239 Reformation like impacted political thought, which ultimately made the kind 1704 01:48:01.239 --> 01:48:07.359 of like being the nationalist coalition possible. But we'll get 1705 01:48:07.399 --> 01:48:09.600 into like the actual onset of hostilities like in the 1706 01:48:09.640 --> 01:48:13.159 next episode that well, well we'll vote. There's a little 1707 01:48:13.159 --> 01:48:15.960 background time to what I just referenced, but then kind 1708 01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:18.359 of get into like the military situation and how it developed. 1709 01:48:19.920 --> 01:48:21.479 If that's okay by you, it's your. 1710 01:48:21.399 --> 01:48:25.199 S That sounds great to me. Yeah, they're maestro. I'm 1711 01:48:25.199 --> 01:48:29.079 getting ready to actually go over some of his writings 1712 01:48:29.800 --> 01:48:31.520 on the Inquisition on my show. 1713 01:48:31.720 --> 01:48:36.159 So yeah, that's what I was thinking about, like specifically, 1714 01:48:36.199 --> 01:48:40.520 but it's I mean, he he's a very like heterodox 1715 01:48:40.520 --> 01:48:44.159 like Chavoc thinker in some ways, but in terms of 1716 01:48:44.800 --> 01:48:51.399 al Catholicism, like in foreign politics especially you know, in 1717 01:48:51.479 --> 01:48:57.199 them in from from really you know, like eighteen twelve, 1718 01:48:57.199 --> 01:49:00.640 eating thirteen, like onward like it, they can't really be overstated. 1719 01:49:00.720 --> 01:49:02.600 I mean you know that because you're a learning guy. 1720 01:49:02.720 --> 01:49:05.359 But this was great, man, And again I really really 1721 01:49:05.359 --> 01:49:08.000 appreciate you giving me the platform. 1722 01:49:08.000 --> 01:49:10.439 All right to what we do every time. Get plugs. 1723 01:49:11.319 --> 01:49:13.800 Yeah, I mean I'm still on I'm still on Twitter. 1724 01:49:14.439 --> 01:49:17.000 Who knows for how long I shut down my telegram 1725 01:49:17.079 --> 01:49:19.600 channel find beings and just becoming like a huge hassle. 1726 01:49:19.880 --> 01:49:24.239 I know, I made everybody upset. I will launch another one, 1727 01:49:25.159 --> 01:49:27.199 but I got to get things in order for some 1728 01:49:27.239 --> 01:49:29.800 of my other projects. I've got to catch up on 1729 01:49:30.720 --> 01:49:33.720 these long form manuscripts that I had a neglect because 1730 01:49:33.720 --> 01:49:35.399 I've been you know, I mean, I've been busy with 1731 01:49:35.439 --> 01:49:38.760 them stuff. It wasn't just as neglecting things, but the 1732 01:49:40.720 --> 01:49:44.279 I am in fact shooting channel footage. It's an involved process. 1733 01:49:46.199 --> 01:49:49.279 Actual like long episodes are probably only gonna come out 1734 01:49:49.560 --> 01:49:52.720 want like bi monthly, but I'm going to start shooting 1735 01:49:52.920 --> 01:49:56.279 like two and three minute videos like and will drop 1736 01:49:56.319 --> 01:49:59.399 those weekly. Okay, But there's a lot that goes into 1737 01:49:59.439 --> 01:50:00.920 what I'm not saying that play Martyr. I'm saying that 1738 01:50:00.960 --> 01:50:06.479 to people. Don't think I'm being like slack and uh, 1739 01:50:06.800 --> 01:50:12.239 season two of Mind Phaser, I I'm recording the next 1740 01:50:12.319 --> 01:50:17.199 episode with my dear friend Giles tomorrow night. That's going 1741 01:50:17.239 --> 01:50:20.359 to be the last episode of season one and season 1742 01:50:20.359 --> 01:50:23.079 two with the pod is going to change substantially, but 1743 01:50:23.279 --> 01:50:26.159 I believe everybody will approve of the ways in which 1744 01:50:26.199 --> 01:50:29.119 it's changing. Like we're not We're We're gonna stick to 1745 01:50:29.119 --> 01:50:31.000 the same as of topics. So there's other things I 1746 01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:35.600 want to emphasize and you'll see, Okay, and I'll give 1747 01:50:35.640 --> 01:50:39.840 it a write up on my substick so to kind 1748 01:50:39.840 --> 01:50:45.279 of hit people to what I'm thinking. But yeah, and 1749 01:50:45.319 --> 01:50:47.760 you can find me on substick at real Thomas seven 1750 01:50:47.840 --> 01:50:52.239 seven seven dot substick dot com. And that's all I 1751 01:50:52.279 --> 01:50:52.720 got for. 1752 01:50:52.800 --> 01:50:56.359 Now, Thomas, until the next time, Thank you so much. 1753 01:50:57.039 --> 01:50:57.479 Yeah. Man. 1754 01:50:57.640 --> 01:51:04.279 Likewise, I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show. 1755 01:51:05.840 --> 01:51:08.760 I'm here with Tom seven seven seven again Part three 1756 01:51:09.319 --> 01:51:11.079 Spanish Civil War. How are you done? 1757 01:51:12.159 --> 01:51:18.600 Very well man, thanks again for making this happen. I've 1758 01:51:18.600 --> 01:51:23.840 been thinking a lot about the revolution in military affairs 1759 01:51:23.880 --> 01:51:27.760 and what people trace its origins to. That's not just 1760 01:51:27.760 --> 01:51:32.159 a discrete question of interest to military science types or 1761 01:51:32.640 --> 01:51:38.159 you know, like war college types who you know, study 1762 01:51:38.199 --> 01:51:40.119 this kind of thing for its own sake, not just 1763 01:51:41.039 --> 01:51:44.520 to understand the things for the sake of posterity, but 1764 01:51:44.680 --> 01:51:51.399 also you know, game future conflicts. But it relates in 1765 01:51:51.439 --> 01:52:00.840 peculiar ways to the conditions that you know, power this 1766 01:52:01.680 --> 01:52:05.399 decisions of an almost purely political nature, like the true 1767 01:52:05.720 --> 01:52:10.680 the true revolution in military affairs was something that occurred 1768 01:52:10.720 --> 01:52:13.359 on the command to control side, owing to the owing 1769 01:52:13.399 --> 01:52:16.079 to the information age and the advent of it, I believe. 1770 01:52:16.720 --> 01:52:23.800 But its origins lie in blitzkrieg or what some people 1771 01:52:23.840 --> 01:52:31.199 commonly understand is blitzkrieg and how that doctrine came to develop. 1772 01:52:32.680 --> 01:52:37.199 The best explanation of what the controversy is, there's Basil 1773 01:52:37.319 --> 01:52:43.840 Ladell Hearts, who I think is something of a problematic historian, 1774 01:52:45.119 --> 01:52:48.760 but he does flesh out what the kind of the 1775 01:52:48.840 --> 01:52:56.760 key variables are in in you know, material to the 1776 01:52:56.760 --> 01:53:02.960 the question. John Mierschein, I find him more accessible. Mirshmm 1777 01:53:03.000 --> 01:53:06.319 is highly theoretical, but he's less deliberately esoteric than somebody 1778 01:53:06.399 --> 01:53:11.800 like heart. And he presents these things, uh ironically because 1779 01:53:11.800 --> 01:53:15.439 I think one of Meershimer's blind spots is the political 1780 01:53:15.439 --> 01:53:18.560 conditions which underlie warfare at all times and what what 1781 01:53:18.600 --> 01:53:20.840 the interplay is. I mean, he's very much a clouset 1782 01:53:20.840 --> 01:53:24.439 whitsy and he's also very much, you know, a quantitative thinker. 1783 01:53:24.560 --> 01:53:28.239 I mean, I got all like tremendous respect for him, 1784 01:53:28.880 --> 01:53:35.439 but that part ways with him in basic terms in 1785 01:53:35.479 --> 01:53:38.840 his understanding of the interplay of political and military affairs. 1786 01:53:38.880 --> 01:53:42.479 But his book Conventional Deterrence, Okay, it made it was 1787 01:53:42.520 --> 01:53:48.199 it was highly impactful during the late Cold War. I 1788 01:53:48.479 --> 01:53:51.680 h people always asking me for sources and things, all right, 1789 01:53:53.000 --> 01:53:56.840 The Journal of the Atomic Scientists. You can find most 1790 01:53:56.880 --> 01:53:59.600 of that the archives for free if you dig deep, okay, 1791 01:53:59.760 --> 01:54:03.800 on line. Now it's become kind of this like like 1792 01:54:04.560 --> 01:54:10.479 you know, pointless kind of piecen like environmentalists kind of 1793 01:54:10.560 --> 01:54:17.239 journal that no one takes seriously, but it had real relevance, 1794 01:54:18.000 --> 01:54:20.199 you know, from the eyes of our era until you know, 1795 01:54:20.279 --> 01:54:25.399 November ninetheteen eighty nine, frankly and the final phase of 1796 01:54:25.399 --> 01:54:29.840 the Cold War. It started running a lot of informed 1797 01:54:29.880 --> 01:54:35.640 pieces by people like Meerscheimer about the re emergence of 1798 01:54:35.640 --> 01:54:41.600 of of conventional forces as you know, a key variable, 1799 01:54:42.199 --> 01:54:46.239 you know, owing not just to to to emergent deeper parodies. 1800 01:54:46.279 --> 01:54:50.199 But you know, it's just like a more you know, 1801 01:54:50.239 --> 01:54:55.279 the the information revolution it led to just more complete 1802 01:54:55.359 --> 01:54:59.119 understanding of you know, the interplay of of conventional and 1803 01:54:59.239 --> 01:55:02.840 nuclear forces in in a few in a then future 1804 01:55:02.840 --> 01:55:10.800 conflict with you know, then extant platforms. But this piece 1805 01:55:10.840 --> 01:55:13.760 that I'm site, I'm referencing and generally a time of scientists. 1806 01:55:14.039 --> 01:55:18.560 It's basically a condensed version of uh near Simmer's book 1807 01:55:18.600 --> 01:55:22.760 Conventional Deterrence, which was published in nineteen eighty two, eighty 1808 01:55:22.760 --> 01:55:29.680 two or eighty three, and obviously he the article it 1809 01:55:30.640 --> 01:55:33.560 talks to from from you know, then current like from 1810 01:55:33.560 --> 01:55:35.840 the headline's issues relating to the able Archer era and 1811 01:55:35.840 --> 01:55:41.359 stuff and and the person to deployment and the UH 1812 01:55:41.880 --> 01:55:46.720 the the Minuteman system and things. But the book Conventional 1813 01:55:46.720 --> 01:55:51.520 Deterrence remains relevant because it's about the best statement of 1814 01:55:51.560 --> 01:55:56.279 the controversy. The historians debate on the question of Blitzkrieg, 1815 01:55:56.439 --> 01:56:00.279 Like basically it boils down to this, you know, was 1816 01:56:00.319 --> 01:56:04.880 Blitzkrieg this revolutionary doctrine that was conceptualized in in purely 1817 01:56:04.920 --> 01:56:13.159 theoretical terms before the Battle of France, specifically you know, 1818 01:56:13.239 --> 01:56:22.039 whereby uh whereby people like Heinzkderian and uh people like 1819 01:56:22.199 --> 01:56:27.439 uh Werner Gunn Fritz, were you know, understood that masked 1820 01:56:27.560 --> 01:56:34.880 armor was gonna supplant conventional infantry, you know, as the 1821 01:56:35.000 --> 01:56:39.800 as the the spare punt of of of of ground 1822 01:56:39.800 --> 01:56:45.199 assault operations. Or was Blitzkrieg this kind of uh, you know, 1823 01:56:47.000 --> 01:56:51.039 technique that developed owing to the unique exigencies of the 1824 01:56:51.079 --> 01:56:56.159 modern battlefield conditions, and you know, as uh as as 1825 01:56:56.359 --> 01:56:59.880 as as the French collapse and as the mainline resistance 1826 01:57:00.880 --> 01:57:06.960 you know, kind of rapidly just evaporated at points where 1827 01:57:08.800 --> 01:57:12.720 masked armor was employed. The great effect, you know, was 1828 01:57:12.720 --> 01:57:17.960 was that just basically like you know, German battlefield commanders 1829 01:57:17.960 --> 01:57:21.920 who who were strongly oriented towards what's called mission arrayed 1830 01:57:22.039 --> 01:57:25.000 tactics anyway, and had an inherent you know, kind of 1831 01:57:25.000 --> 01:57:29.039 tendency towards experimentation and flexibility. You know, they just adopted 1832 01:57:29.039 --> 01:57:34.079 these things like in theater, and then you know, very organically, ah, 1833 01:57:35.520 --> 01:57:38.279 a combined arms doctrine developed, you know, like owing to 1834 01:57:39.159 --> 01:57:44.880 trial and error under the critical conditions of combat or 1835 01:57:45.439 --> 01:57:49.920 you know, was was it again like just a just 1836 01:57:50.039 --> 01:57:55.880 a a theoretical coup, you know, owing to kind of 1837 01:57:55.920 --> 01:58:00.439 the latent uh brilliance of the German general stat And 1838 01:58:00.479 --> 01:58:04.039 of course people favored the latter. That's really I mean 1839 01:58:04.039 --> 01:58:06.000 that that sounds on it's face it might be particularly 1840 01:58:06.000 --> 01:58:09.520 credible in like general terms. But the you know, the 1841 01:58:09.520 --> 01:58:11.800 the Germans, the Prussian Army, and especially if you the 1842 01:58:11.840 --> 01:58:14.920 Wehrmacht as the direct legacy of the Prussian Army, which 1843 01:58:14.960 --> 01:58:17.560 I do and I'm not gonna be disputed. They invented 1844 01:58:17.560 --> 01:58:23.479 the staff structure, Okay, the United States, the UK, France, Japan, 1845 01:58:23.720 --> 01:58:27.680 everybody imitated the Prussian staff structure, where you know, you 1846 01:58:27.680 --> 01:58:30.960 have a permanent general staff that constantly studies in games warfare. 1847 01:58:31.720 --> 01:58:35.119 And they also pioneered war gaming as we know it, okay, 1848 01:58:35.359 --> 01:58:41.600 you know, like discreet scenario building with coded variables too, 1849 01:58:44.600 --> 01:58:48.600 you know, tailored to mimic likely battlefield conditions and things. 1850 01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:55.880 So in the German case, it's a more credible postulate 1851 01:58:55.920 --> 01:59:00.199 than it would be you know, as applied to there 1852 01:59:01.640 --> 01:59:05.359 as applied to other military cultures in a speculative capacity. 1853 01:59:07.119 --> 01:59:10.880 If you accept uh that blitzkrieg was a discreet doctrine 1854 01:59:11.039 --> 01:59:17.560 that emerged, you know, from theoretical quarters of the Rmoncht, 1855 01:59:19.239 --> 01:59:23.960 you also basically like like a concominant like claim they're 1856 01:59:23.960 --> 01:59:27.159 in is that well, like Hitler sabotaged this by micromanagement 1857 01:59:27.319 --> 01:59:31.520 or Hitler was basically like, you know, a siege oriented commander. 1858 01:59:33.600 --> 01:59:40.920 You know, he was uh, basically cautious in critical capacities, 1859 01:59:41.720 --> 01:59:46.079 you know, and uh, I basically agree with that, but 1860 01:59:46.119 --> 01:59:48.880 not for the reasons most people do. If you learn 1861 01:59:48.920 --> 01:59:52.920 the way Hitler behaved in in in a warlord role, 1862 01:59:54.319 --> 01:59:56.840 he wasn't this crazy, reckless gambler like a lot of 1863 01:59:56.840 --> 01:59:59.880 core historians or Hollywood like make it out, you know, 1864 02:00:00.039 --> 02:00:03.800 quite the contrary. He was basically like a conservative German 1865 02:00:03.920 --> 02:00:08.520 like siege commander, you know, and when objectives were reached, 1866 02:00:09.439 --> 02:00:13.079 you know, he he was obsessed with protecting flanks and 1867 02:00:13.479 --> 02:00:17.359 you know, constituting forces such that they could defend in depth, 1868 02:00:18.079 --> 02:00:24.000 you know, if necessary. But in any event, one of 1869 02:00:24.039 --> 02:00:26.840 the reasons why I think that the whole controversy was 1870 02:00:26.920 --> 02:00:31.720 kind of a fool's errand it's because German armored doctrine 1871 02:00:32.159 --> 02:00:36.560 it's testing ground was the Spanish Civil War. Okay, and 1872 02:00:36.680 --> 02:00:42.159 von Toma, who uh, as we'll get into. He's an 1873 02:00:42.199 --> 02:00:47.680 underappreciated German commander more so than some of the other 1874 02:00:47.760 --> 02:00:52.239 general officers which revisionists, uh, you know have kind of 1875 02:00:53.600 --> 02:00:56.640 discovered weren't higher praise than they were afforded other for 1876 02:00:56.680 --> 02:00:58.640 political reason and just because they were like overlooked in 1877 02:00:58.680 --> 02:01:01.119 favor of these more kind of dashing characters like Rommel, 1878 02:01:01.239 --> 02:01:07.399 or like Drrian, or like went manach thing i'd put uh, 1879 02:01:08.640 --> 02:01:12.880 I put Vontma. I consider him the same class as 1880 02:01:12.960 --> 02:01:18.119 uh Rick Toffin, as Ferdinand Schorner with the last German 1881 02:01:18.279 --> 02:01:25.640 Field Marshall ever. But he uh, he was a tactical genius, 1882 02:01:25.680 --> 02:01:27.399 I believe. And that's the other reason I like that 1883 02:01:27.479 --> 02:01:32.399 book by Hoffman Stalins Worb Extermination. It's not just because 1884 02:01:32.399 --> 02:01:35.239 it's a it's great scholarship, but he makes that point 1885 02:01:35.239 --> 02:01:37.479 in some of his other stuff too, that Ferdinand Schorners 1886 02:01:38.760 --> 02:01:42.279 it was a great battlefield commander, but in any event, 1887 02:01:44.279 --> 02:01:51.199 armor was dispositive. In the Spanish Civil War and the nationalists, 1888 02:01:51.239 --> 02:01:53.760 you know, the the Franco's forces, I mean, if you 1889 02:01:53.760 --> 02:01:56.079 want to think of them as nationalists, fascists, you know, 1890 02:01:56.720 --> 02:02:05.600 the like about the constellation of of of uh of 1891 02:02:05.720 --> 02:02:08.840 of just fascists who had general sympathy for you know, 1892 02:02:08.920 --> 02:02:13.199 the for the church and and for the you know, 1893 02:02:13.239 --> 02:02:18.800 and for the for the traditional regime political and social. 1894 02:02:19.520 --> 02:02:22.039 But they like however you want to describe on it was. 1895 02:02:23.279 --> 02:02:27.079 It was this kind of confederation of of of of 1896 02:02:27.399 --> 02:02:31.880 different forces but sometimes competing loyalties and uh, you know, 1897 02:02:31.960 --> 02:02:35.760 like we talked about before, before the loof Offa came 1898 02:02:35.800 --> 02:02:39.399 to their aid, you know, not just to literally transport 1899 02:02:39.640 --> 02:02:42.239 the forces and being they had across the entranean c 1900 02:02:42.439 --> 02:02:45.600 to the battle space, but all you know, they they 1901 02:02:45.600 --> 02:02:49.039 were they were in dire straits and one of the 1902 02:02:49.119 --> 02:02:54.319 reasons why they were just out gunned was because, uh, 1903 02:02:54.720 --> 02:02:59.199 the the enemy had uh twenty six tanks provided by 1904 02:02:59.199 --> 02:03:05.000 the Soviet Union, and those tanks were obsolete by the 1905 02:03:05.000 --> 02:03:07.720 admin of World War Two, but they were they were 1906 02:03:07.920 --> 02:03:12.399 in someways perfectly suited to the combat on the Spanish battlefield. 1907 02:03:13.000 --> 02:03:16.880 And one of the reasons I emphasized Von Toma, It's 1908 02:03:16.920 --> 02:03:19.680 not just because I've got you know, sort of like 1909 02:03:19.760 --> 02:03:23.680 a nerve's interest in the ground element of condor leadings. 1910 02:03:23.760 --> 02:03:27.680 I think it's cool. But out of all the men 1911 02:03:27.800 --> 02:03:33.359 that you know, Hitler and you know, the the OKW 1912 02:03:33.760 --> 02:03:37.760 could have deployed, you know, to command that element, they 1913 02:03:37.840 --> 02:03:40.640 chose von Toma. You know who was this guy who 1914 02:03:40.720 --> 02:03:43.840 was a student of on Sikh, who was an incredibly 1915 02:03:43.880 --> 02:03:47.800 progressive commander in terms of his understanding of combined arms 1916 02:03:48.000 --> 02:03:50.000 and just an all around like really well rounded guy. 1917 02:03:50.279 --> 02:03:52.119 You know. They didn't just drop you know, like some 1918 02:03:53.039 --> 02:03:55.640 you know some some tried and tested you know, Prussian 1919 02:03:55.640 --> 02:04:01.760 infantry commander, you know, and that's from van Tooma. Also, 1920 02:04:01.880 --> 02:04:05.640 like he was he was knighted owing to uh you know, 1921 02:04:05.720 --> 02:04:07.479 World War One, and I mean he was, he was, 1922 02:04:07.520 --> 02:04:09.800 he was granted the title for heroism, you know, like 1923 02:04:09.840 --> 02:04:12.239 he wasn't born an aristocrat. So I mean this was 1924 02:04:12.279 --> 02:04:15.199 a guy who really really had a ship together in 1925 02:04:15.279 --> 02:04:21.720 command roles, you know, but he he uh he one second, 1926 02:04:25.039 --> 02:04:28.119 he fought on basically he fought literally not basically, he 1927 02:04:28.159 --> 02:04:29.960 fought in every front of the First World War two, 1928 02:04:29.960 --> 02:04:32.439 which was rare. He fought he joined the Bavarian Army 1929 02:04:33.359 --> 02:04:38.199 an outside of hostilities. Uh. He fought on the Western 1930 02:04:38.239 --> 02:04:41.119 Front and remittently finally fought the Battle of the Marn 1931 02:04:41.319 --> 02:04:44.359 and was captured by American and French forces. If he 1932 02:04:44.399 --> 02:04:47.760 gave a pow for the you know, the final two 1933 02:04:47.800 --> 02:04:50.039 months of the war. But you know, he fought on 1934 02:04:50.079 --> 02:04:53.520 the Eastern Front extensively and most men had not, with 1935 02:04:53.600 --> 02:04:56.920 some exceptions, you know, spent like basically equal time like 1936 02:04:56.920 --> 02:04:58.199 in the East and in the west, you know, like 1937 02:04:58.239 --> 02:05:02.239 he fought in Romania. He fought throughout the Serbian campaign, 1938 02:05:02.840 --> 02:05:07.600 you know, very well on a guy. He was awarded 1939 02:05:07.640 --> 02:05:11.760 the the the Order of Max with Joseph by the 1940 02:05:11.800 --> 02:05:17.279 Bavarian Army, which was like the you know, his equivalent 1941 02:05:17.359 --> 02:05:21.159 of the Blue Max basically, you know, but it uh it, 1942 02:05:21.159 --> 02:05:23.359 it was equivalent of the Knight's Cross. And that's why 1943 02:05:23.399 --> 02:05:27.760 he that's why he got you know, the the the 1944 02:05:27.760 --> 02:05:33.520 the honorific in his name. But he uh van Brauschich, 1945 02:05:33.800 --> 02:05:40.800 who is kind of an under examined commander, I mean everybody, 1946 02:05:41.079 --> 02:05:43.159 the falling out between him and Hitler, you know, in 1947 02:05:43.199 --> 02:05:48.560 the wake of the very much being a hall stenter 1948 02:05:48.600 --> 02:05:53.159 being halted in Moscow. It's kind of what he's most 1949 02:05:53.199 --> 02:05:56.520 known for, as well as there's some strange intrigues he 1950 02:05:56.600 --> 02:05:58.960 seems to have been involved in, you know, relating to the 1951 02:05:59.039 --> 02:06:01.760 July twentieth plot. But other than that, he's kind of 1952 02:06:01.760 --> 02:06:03.960 treated as a footnote, you know, because for the remainder 1953 02:06:04.000 --> 02:06:06.119 of the war, like you know, he'd been he'd he'd 1954 02:06:06.159 --> 02:06:10.000 been castured out, you know, owing to him. The fear 1955 02:06:10.079 --> 02:06:12.800 is loss of confidence in him. But he was a 1956 02:06:12.800 --> 02:06:19.560 farmer dynamic character in at least in the terms of 1957 02:06:19.680 --> 02:06:23.199 you know, his profession and how he pursued it. Then 1958 02:06:23.960 --> 02:06:29.079 people often acknowledge so he was uh, you know, he 1959 02:06:29.239 --> 02:06:34.640 was he basically Van Brousa said, had you know, cultivated 1960 02:06:34.680 --> 02:06:39.279 Ontoma's talents by by you know, asking of him they 1961 02:06:39.279 --> 02:06:43.760 become an expert in arman warfare, which I assume Ontma 1962 02:06:44.079 --> 02:06:47.079 had been kind of pursuing his own course of learning 1963 02:06:47.239 --> 02:06:50.479 in that capacity anyway, I mean, just like going to 1964 02:06:50.520 --> 02:06:58.359 the battlefield record and everything else. He ended up commanding, uh, 1965 02:06:58.479 --> 02:07:04.279 he ended up commanding seventeen pans are later on in 1966 02:07:04.319 --> 02:07:08.600 the Operation Barbarossa, he fought at the Battle of Moscow. 1967 02:07:09.000 --> 02:07:12.199 Then he was trying. He received the Knight's Cross, the 1968 02:07:12.239 --> 02:07:16.479 Iron Cross. Subsequently he was transferred to North Africa and 1969 02:07:16.520 --> 02:07:20.359 he was captured at the in the aftermath of the 1970 02:07:20.399 --> 02:07:25.359 Second Battle of l a Lamine. And that's why like uh, 1971 02:07:26.000 --> 02:07:29.239 hearts like uh in the German General's Talk and like 1972 02:07:29.279 --> 02:07:32.000 all the hearts like uh, you know, kind of books 1973 02:07:32.039 --> 02:07:37.319 on on Hrmacht's leadership, like Montoma like features looms large 1974 02:07:37.640 --> 02:07:40.319 because he was used frankly in the custody of of 1975 02:07:40.319 --> 02:07:44.039 of the British army for years, you know, and he 1976 02:07:44.039 --> 02:07:46.520 he developed something of a rapport with these guys, you know, 1977 02:07:46.600 --> 02:07:52.159 I mean it, uh, which is interesting. So I mean 1978 02:07:52.199 --> 02:07:55.720 some people would say, like, well, you know, that gives 1979 02:07:55.800 --> 02:07:58.600 him kind of an outsized presence in the historical record. 1980 02:07:58.760 --> 02:08:03.319 I don't really think so. And there's plenty of especially 1981 02:08:03.439 --> 02:08:05.840 after the cessation of hostilities, I mean, after the day 1982 02:08:05.880 --> 02:08:09.920 of defeat, there was plenty of There's plenty of surviving 1983 02:08:09.920 --> 02:08:13.279 general officers who you know, could have been debriefed all 1984 02:08:13.359 --> 02:08:15.800 day and they would have been happy to have that 1985 02:08:16.039 --> 02:08:18.319 either a lot in lieu of the gallows or you know, 1986 02:08:19.119 --> 02:08:23.199 being unceremoniously uh. You know, it's kind of like cast 1987 02:08:23.279 --> 02:08:30.119 out as on persons. Plus to the British whatever we can, 1988 02:08:30.199 --> 02:08:33.279 whatever we can say about them, they I mean, they're 1989 02:08:33.279 --> 02:08:35.960 they're not a bunch of jokers when it comes to 1990 02:08:37.039 --> 02:08:41.119 the capacity to evaluate military talent and command level. I 1991 02:08:41.119 --> 02:08:46.600 think anybody would acknowledge that, regardless, regardless of their feelings 1992 02:08:48.079 --> 02:08:54.560 about Old Blighty otherwise. But Ontoma ended up in Spain 1993 02:08:54.960 --> 02:09:00.159 in October thirty six. The first shipment at German tanks 1994 02:09:00.800 --> 02:09:06.159 was forty one ponzer Comwagen type one pans Are one tanks. Okay, 1995 02:09:08.319 --> 02:09:11.439 and like the T twenty six tanks that they were 1996 02:09:11.439 --> 02:09:15.600 deployed to combat, they were obsolete by you know, ninety 1997 02:09:15.680 --> 02:09:19.319 thirty nine forty but it again for the for the 1998 02:09:19.359 --> 02:09:27.960 Spanish uh battlefield, they they were perfectly suited. And also 1999 02:09:28.399 --> 02:09:31.680 the Germans, as the pans Are two had already been developed. 2000 02:09:34.079 --> 02:09:37.000 The pans Are one was being used largely as a 2001 02:09:37.039 --> 02:09:42.239 training tank, like by the Wehrmacht because it, I mean, 2002 02:09:42.239 --> 02:09:45.399 for various reasons and including it was it was just 2003 02:09:45.399 --> 02:09:50.520 a simpler machine, you know, and it was uh you 2004 02:09:50.520 --> 02:09:52.960 gotta understand too, like most men at this time, like 2005 02:09:52.960 --> 02:09:55.279 it never even like driven a car, you know, so 2006 02:09:55.359 --> 02:09:59.960 it's I even today, I mean with all the Advan 2007 02:10:00.039 --> 02:10:03.720 and somebody would have and you know, learning how to 2008 02:10:03.800 --> 02:10:06.640 fight in armor and you know, like a contemporary tank. 2009 02:10:07.159 --> 02:10:09.239 I mean, imagine, imagine a guy who's never even bending 2010 02:10:09.279 --> 02:10:13.760 like an automobile, you know, like it. It's and plus, 2011 02:10:13.760 --> 02:10:16.840 fighting an armor is scary. It's claust aphobic. You're in, 2012 02:10:16.920 --> 02:10:19.920 you're inhaling diesel fumes, it's loud as hell like in 2013 02:10:19.960 --> 02:10:23.479 those days. Your visibility is compromised, like if you get hit, 2014 02:10:23.560 --> 02:10:25.720 you're probably gonna burn to death or you know, get 2015 02:10:25.760 --> 02:10:30.159 your face ripped apart by shrapnel. I mean, it's it's 2016 02:10:30.199 --> 02:10:35.680 no joke, you know. So training an armor is not 2017 02:10:35.760 --> 02:10:38.319 just like teaching somebody to fire a gun, or or 2018 02:10:38.359 --> 02:10:40.720 to dry or to drive a shitty. I mean, I 2019 02:10:40.760 --> 02:10:42.680 that should go without saying. But I maybe it's because 2020 02:10:42.720 --> 02:10:46.119 I mean maybe it's because like I I don't like, 2021 02:10:46.520 --> 02:10:50.199 I'm claust aphobic in a real way and my room 2022 02:10:50.239 --> 02:10:53.079 went on. One horror is being burnt alive. But I 2023 02:10:53.079 --> 02:10:56.359 I've always thought, uh, I've always I've always thought it 2024 02:10:56.359 --> 02:11:00.359 would be uniquely uh scary to fight in that. And 2025 02:11:00.399 --> 02:11:05.960 I don't generally have a fear of higher situations. But 2026 02:11:07.159 --> 02:11:10.960 the total, uh, the total number of pans are ones 2027 02:11:11.079 --> 02:11:17.399 to reach Spain was seventy two as regards forces and 2028 02:11:17.520 --> 02:11:19.800 being by the end of I still between nine thirty 2029 02:11:19.800 --> 02:11:21.600 six thirty nine of total one hundred and twenty two 2030 02:11:21.760 --> 02:11:24.640 were deployed, you know, including like replacements and everything else, 2031 02:11:24.680 --> 02:11:27.680 you know, like going to owing to attrition and going 2032 02:11:27.720 --> 02:11:30.239 to you know, just a mechanical failure in things. But 2033 02:11:31.399 --> 02:11:37.439 and like we mentioned, uh that the Nationalists were outgunned 2034 02:11:37.479 --> 02:11:40.840 by the Soviet T twenty six, which were fitted with 2035 02:11:40.840 --> 02:11:45.279 a forty five millimeters main gun, which was heavy heavy firepower, 2036 02:11:45.560 --> 02:11:53.079 uh for the era the pans Are one, it's armament 2037 02:11:53.359 --> 02:12:02.359 was two M thirteen light machine guns. It was a 2038 02:12:02.439 --> 02:12:05.159 truly light tank, like in fact, like pie today's metric 2039 02:12:05.279 --> 02:12:08.039 or even by the metric you know of uh of 2040 02:12:08.520 --> 02:12:10.800 you know, by the by the metric of you know, 2041 02:12:10.880 --> 02:12:12.720 four or five years later, even by the mid forties, 2042 02:12:12.840 --> 02:12:13.960 it'd be a like it'd be a like it'd be 2043 02:12:13.960 --> 02:12:16.239 a light armored vehicle. It wouldn't even be considered a tank, 2044 02:12:16.479 --> 02:12:20.960 you know, and owing to these only this disparity of 2045 02:12:20.960 --> 02:12:24.000 of arms and you know, fire power rather uh, like 2046 02:12:24.159 --> 02:12:30.560 Spanish officers started agitating for the for the platform to 2047 02:12:30.560 --> 02:12:34.199 be retrofitted with a BREDA twenty millimeter main gun. You know, 2048 02:12:34.279 --> 02:12:39.119 Don Tomas strongly opposed this. You know, he said, you're 2049 02:12:39.159 --> 02:12:42.880 gonna compromise the integrity of the hull. Uh, You're gonna 2050 02:12:42.880 --> 02:12:49.159 literally have to drill holes that expose the gunner, you know, 2051 02:12:49.199 --> 02:12:53.239 the being targeted at visual range. You know, it's it's 2052 02:12:53.760 --> 02:12:56.159 it's it's it's a it's a it's a fool's errand 2053 02:12:56.840 --> 02:12:59.600 you know, and it was and that's important, you know, 2054 02:12:59.680 --> 02:13:02.800 I mean it's not the Spanish were thinking about this, 2055 02:13:03.079 --> 02:13:06.520 you know, like you know, like like like like like 2056 02:13:06.600 --> 02:13:10.920 a like an infantry commander would you know, like we 2057 02:13:10.640 --> 02:13:20.119 we just need to match firepower. You know, it's Montoma understood. Yeah, 2058 02:13:20.159 --> 02:13:27.800 I mean a lot of what goes into a lot 2059 02:13:27.840 --> 02:13:31.399 of what goes into combined arms warfare, I mean always 2060 02:13:31.439 --> 02:13:35.479 then and now, but also specifically, I mean, yeah, the 2061 02:13:35.600 --> 02:13:38.159 German General staff has oriented towards you know, warfare is 2062 02:13:38.159 --> 02:13:43.560 the advance of fire. But it's not you know, packing 2063 02:13:43.600 --> 02:13:47.880 as much firepower onto onto onto a platform, I mean 2064 02:13:47.920 --> 02:13:50.880 for its own sake, you know, because you're you know, 2065 02:13:51.039 --> 02:13:53.319 you know, it's it's some kind of it's not going 2066 02:13:53.359 --> 02:13:55.680 to caliber race with the enemy is misguided, but it's 2067 02:13:55.760 --> 02:14:00.560 understandable why they would think that way. But interesting, what 2068 02:14:00.840 --> 02:14:02.720 ultimately was agreed upon. 2069 02:14:05.479 --> 02:14:06.000 Was UH. 2070 02:14:08.039 --> 02:14:16.239 Montoma discovered and this was abided because he pretty rapidly 2071 02:14:16.279 --> 02:14:18.640 won the confidence of the Spaniards. We'll get into that. 2072 02:14:18.680 --> 02:14:23.199 Interesting that paradigm and kind of interplay the sociology of 2073 02:14:23.239 --> 02:14:26.119 it in a minute. But UH, what was most effective 2074 02:14:26.399 --> 02:14:33.399 was UH have one tank per section for per company size, 2075 02:14:33.520 --> 02:14:37.199 like a tank section would be you know, about fifteen 2076 02:14:38.239 --> 02:14:41.600 ten to fifteen panthers, like one for every one. UH. 2077 02:14:41.840 --> 02:14:46.119 One retrofitted thirty millimeter gun or twenty millimeters main gun 2078 02:14:46.279 --> 02:14:49.439 for every fifteen ten to fifteen panthers. Was what made 2079 02:14:49.479 --> 02:14:53.399 it most effective because you know they could you wouldn't 2080 02:14:53.399 --> 02:14:59.159 you wouldn't sacrifice you know, the your defensive armor, you know, 2081 02:14:59.159 --> 02:15:03.359 but you could bring the fight power to bear that 2082 02:15:03.560 --> 02:15:07.720 was required you know, in in in killing enemy tanks 2083 02:15:07.840 --> 02:15:14.119 or you know, assaulting hardened targets. But UH was also 2084 02:15:14.199 --> 02:15:16.960 revolutionary was Comps Group TOMA as it came to be. 2085 02:15:17.359 --> 02:15:22.319 It was reinforced by the three tank companies were reinforced 2086 02:15:22.319 --> 02:15:25.079 by an anti tank section. You know, because they think 2087 02:15:25.119 --> 02:15:29.560 of eight anti tank guns, the early models, which again 2088 02:15:29.680 --> 02:15:32.359 this is another this this platform popped up in the 2089 02:15:32.399 --> 02:15:36.079 Second World War some but it was basically, you know, 2090 02:15:36.119 --> 02:15:38.560 obsolescent because they didn't have the power to kill you know, 2091 02:15:38.640 --> 02:15:42.039 the main battle tanks like the TV four, it was 2092 02:15:42.039 --> 02:15:50.880 the Ponzer abdur Khan and uh. One of the things 2093 02:15:50.880 --> 02:15:53.680 people today, unless they're kind of students of World War 2094 02:15:53.760 --> 02:15:57.880 two or like private service type guys, the advent of 2095 02:15:57.880 --> 02:16:01.359 a main battle tank you know, which is uh, you know, 2096 02:16:01.399 --> 02:16:04.439 which which can function you know, somewhat like an assault gun, 2097 02:16:05.760 --> 02:16:07.920 you know, has the power to kill enemy tanks, you know, 2098 02:16:07.960 --> 02:16:12.319 like going to its only its penetration capabilities and things, 2099 02:16:12.640 --> 02:16:15.119 you know, like having that in on one platform. Like 2100 02:16:15.159 --> 02:16:17.680 that's that that's a post RUAR two innovation. I mean 2101 02:16:17.720 --> 02:16:20.039 it can't. It started coming about during the Second World War. 2102 02:16:20.079 --> 02:16:24.239 But you know, your tanks, your assault guns are dedicated 2103 02:16:24.239 --> 02:16:28.119 you know, anti tank platforms. They these were like discrete, 2104 02:16:29.319 --> 02:16:42.799 discreetly purposed set pieces. Which is interesting. But but Tom 2105 02:16:42.959 --> 02:16:48.559 was deployed as an obst latnant, which is a lieutenant colonels. Approximately, 2106 02:16:50.840 --> 02:16:57.520 Franco appointed him quote tank tank inspector, which seems on 2107 02:16:57.600 --> 02:17:00.639 its face largely symbolic of a title, especially when you 2108 02:17:00.680 --> 02:17:05.719 consider that there wasn't a dedicated tank element, you know, 2109 02:17:05.799 --> 02:17:07.959 armored element in the Spanish army, because there wasn't in 2110 02:17:08.040 --> 02:17:11.559 any army really except you know, France and Germany, and 2111 02:17:11.559 --> 02:17:14.479 then in both cases it was nascense in Italy too. 2112 02:17:14.680 --> 02:17:22.040 But Uh, this he Ventoma enjoyed tremendous authority, and there's 2113 02:17:22.040 --> 02:17:25.120 a lot of surviving correspondence in the form of telegrams 2114 02:17:26.200 --> 02:17:33.719 between von Toma, Franco's staff, Franco himself. One of the 2115 02:17:33.760 --> 02:17:44.200 primary liaisons between between on Toma and Uh and the 2116 02:17:44.200 --> 02:17:51.079 Spanish high command was Uh, a German guy who'd come 2117 02:17:51.120 --> 02:17:53.319 up through the ad there, but he joined up with 2118 02:17:53.360 --> 02:17:58.239 the Phalangeis outfit and he was fighting in Spain against 2119 02:17:58.239 --> 02:18:01.959 the communists before you know, the Reich even deployed forces, 2120 02:18:02.760 --> 02:18:05.719 and he ended up working as Montoma's interpreter. It's hard 2121 02:18:05.719 --> 02:18:07.680 to find out a lot about him, but he's a 2122 02:18:07.719 --> 02:18:10.600 fascinating character. If I can find out more about him. 2123 02:18:11.959 --> 02:18:16.159 Adolf Klaus was his name, I'll include it. But he 2124 02:18:16.239 --> 02:18:24.799 became onntma's official interpreter and despite the inherent tentions, frankly, 2125 02:18:24.840 --> 02:18:26.840 there was something of a classic culture is like stant 2126 02:18:27.680 --> 02:18:30.040 not just because Montoma was kind of the consummate like 2127 02:18:30.079 --> 02:18:34.559 Teutonic officer, like very uncompromising, very rigid, you know, very 2128 02:18:34.639 --> 02:18:38.399 very much a task master. The Spanish army was tough, 2129 02:18:38.639 --> 02:18:40.360 like nobody would say that it was not, and I 2130 02:18:40.360 --> 02:18:43.719 mean frankly, they would not have undertaken this crusading as 2131 02:18:43.799 --> 02:18:48.520 the Communists facing the kinds of odds that were extant, 2132 02:18:48.680 --> 02:18:52.360 like were they not very game tough men, but they 2133 02:18:52.360 --> 02:18:56.920 were all fucked up. Their army was not at all professionalized. 2134 02:18:57.360 --> 02:18:59.360 You know, you still had a lot of aristocrats in 2135 02:18:59.680 --> 02:19:02.920 in in the officer ranks who felt entitled the things. 2136 02:19:04.680 --> 02:19:09.200 You know, it was rife with corruption, you know. Uh, 2137 02:19:09.360 --> 02:19:11.760 there was all kinds of favoritism you know that had 2138 02:19:11.799 --> 02:19:15.520 nothiing to do with uh, with an actual battlefield performance 2139 02:19:15.520 --> 02:19:19.040 and suitability for command. There's vestigial trappings that code of 2140 02:19:19.120 --> 02:19:23.559 Hidalgo and on Toma issued a scathing report when he'd 2141 02:19:23.600 --> 02:19:26.840 only been in country a couple of months. Among other things, 2142 02:19:28.399 --> 02:19:32.079 he came to notice that although there's many volunteers, like 2143 02:19:32.120 --> 02:19:35.520 for the tank branch, a bunch of other men, it's 2144 02:19:35.520 --> 02:19:38.639 simply been ordered there by Spanish commanders who wanted to 2145 02:19:38.719 --> 02:19:40.879 get rid of them. You know, so I will send him. 2146 02:19:40.920 --> 02:19:43.040 This guy's a trouble maker. Were like I don't like him, 2147 02:19:43.120 --> 02:19:44.920 or like maybe I want to even screw his wife 2148 02:19:44.959 --> 02:19:47.840 or something. I know, I'll send him, to send him 2149 02:19:47.840 --> 02:19:51.879 to the Cound of Religion. And von Toma pulled no punches, 2150 02:19:52.000 --> 02:19:56.280 and he uh, he threatened to leave. He threatened to 2151 02:19:57.079 --> 02:20:00.639 in his words, uh, you know, just just just like 2152 02:20:00.760 --> 02:20:08.639 resign command and leave. And he was able to convince 2153 02:20:08.719 --> 02:20:12.559 Franco or more properly, I mean, I mean Franco was 2154 02:20:12.600 --> 02:20:15.200 a Franco new what side his bread was buttered on. 2155 02:20:15.319 --> 02:20:18.239 He recognized he needed the Germans and he needed Vontoma. 2156 02:20:18.360 --> 02:20:22.680 But the whoever in the high command were, you know, 2157 02:20:22.719 --> 02:20:26.280 his primary points of contact, he was able to finesse 2158 02:20:26.360 --> 02:20:31.440 them to you know that. Look like, whoever the men 2159 02:20:31.479 --> 02:20:33.639 you send me, they've got to be the constant the 2160 02:20:33.639 --> 02:20:35.879 Ponzer group. They've got to be comfortable with a variety 2161 02:20:35.879 --> 02:20:38.600 of functions and roles of a type that you are 2162 02:20:38.639 --> 02:20:43.719 not habituated to and probably are probably are our occupational 2163 02:20:46.159 --> 02:20:50.680 functions of first impression, you know, like I said, they 2164 02:20:50.680 --> 02:20:53.120 had to be psychologically tough and fortified to deal with 2165 02:20:53.159 --> 02:21:00.879 the inherent difficulties of fighting and armor. They uh, he 2166 02:21:01.040 --> 02:21:05.040 said that just in in in raw, like staff needs 2167 02:21:06.200 --> 02:21:09.159 or personnel needs. You know, when Thomas said there there 2168 02:21:09.200 --> 02:21:12.479 had to be at least fifty volunteer troops posted at 2169 02:21:12.479 --> 02:21:14.959 all times to the tank school, you know, the tank 2170 02:21:15.040 --> 02:21:19.399 training around on Tone was overseeing twenty five dedicated gunner trainees, 2171 02:21:19.440 --> 02:21:25.239 twenty five dedicated drivers you know, being uh you know, 2172 02:21:25.319 --> 02:21:29.520 after a after their initial training subjective, they should then 2173 02:21:31.159 --> 02:21:36.639 undertake a four week course, a combat training course, upon 2174 02:21:36.840 --> 02:21:39.360 completion of which they could be immediately posted a front 2175 02:21:39.399 --> 02:21:44.200 as needed as replacements to be a constant rotation of 2176 02:21:44.760 --> 02:21:49.000 tank crews you know, who are highly trained in every 2177 02:21:49.120 --> 02:21:57.440 every function of armored warfare. You know, the the to 2178 02:21:57.559 --> 02:22:02.120 get her, you know, they they were habituated and they'd 2179 02:22:02.159 --> 02:22:04.879 be accompanied by their officers or n CEOs you know 2180 02:22:04.920 --> 02:22:10.120 that had overseen them during the training cycle. And Montmo 2181 02:22:10.200 --> 02:22:13.600 insisted upon this too. This is a general postulate that 2182 02:22:14.719 --> 02:22:19.760 was to become doctrine squad CEOs who are who would 2183 02:22:19.760 --> 02:22:21.840 be NCOs in the Spanish Army I believe, you know, 2184 02:22:21.879 --> 02:22:24.760 like senior n c os and company commanders who would 2185 02:22:24.760 --> 02:22:27.959 be officers they they when told says they had to 2186 02:22:27.959 --> 02:22:31.360 always be present with their squad and company actively leading 2187 02:22:31.360 --> 02:22:34.280 the men from the front. This was not this could 2188 02:22:34.479 --> 02:22:41.079 you know? This was not negotiable. And he concluded this 2189 02:22:41.200 --> 02:22:49.399 report by stating openly that if the tank section cannot 2190 02:22:49.479 --> 02:22:52.159 make up for the casualties that you know they're going 2191 02:22:52.200 --> 02:22:56.440 to suffer with troops and commanders and n c os 2192 02:22:56.479 --> 02:23:01.120 who were both tactically and technically proficient, that we're going 2193 02:23:01.159 --> 02:23:03.479 to lose the war. You know, It's just there's no 2194 02:23:03.879 --> 02:23:05.799 two ways about it. You know, this war is going 2195 02:23:05.840 --> 02:23:12.000 to be one or lost with the ground element, and uh, 2196 02:23:12.040 --> 02:23:18.280 it's gonna be one by proper deployment of the of armor. Okay, 2197 02:23:21.000 --> 02:23:26.000 And now I hope it's coming into focus. Why I 2198 02:23:26.079 --> 02:23:33.959 subjected the listeners to that extended introduction about the revolution 2199 02:23:34.040 --> 02:23:40.120 and military affairs and Meersheimer's postulates they're in and the 2200 02:23:40.319 --> 02:23:41.760 you know that what's what can be thought of as 2201 02:23:41.760 --> 02:23:46.040 the Blitz Greek controversy. Okay, because what I am positing 2202 02:23:49.280 --> 02:23:52.959 is in rebuttal to both of those perspectives, as I'm 2203 02:23:52.959 --> 02:23:57.799 sure people are discerning. I'm not any kind of military 2204 02:23:57.840 --> 02:24:01.719 expert at all. Okay, but I do know something about history, 2205 02:24:01.799 --> 02:24:06.840 and I do know something about you know, the Vermont, 2206 02:24:07.360 --> 02:24:13.159 all right, and I think, uh, I know something about 2207 02:24:13.159 --> 02:24:18.879 military science as much as uh, you know, like a 2208 02:24:18.959 --> 02:24:21.520 layman who's not like a game theorist or like a 2209 02:24:21.520 --> 02:24:24.959 prior service officer type. Can you know, people are welcome 2210 02:24:25.040 --> 02:24:27.360 to take me to task for this, and I mean it, 2211 02:24:28.280 --> 02:24:31.200 you know, I make myself available anybody who wants to 2212 02:24:31.440 --> 02:24:36.840 debate these things that I propose. But you know, like 2213 02:24:36.879 --> 02:24:43.239 I said, I'm relying upon the direct testimony of the 2214 02:24:43.280 --> 02:24:49.479 participants to these events and uh you know the uh 2215 02:24:49.639 --> 02:24:52.559 and relying upon you know, the conditions leading to the 2216 02:24:53.120 --> 02:24:58.639 outcome of disengagement. You know, it's I don't think it 2217 02:24:58.639 --> 02:25:05.639 can be said that I'm speculating. Lontma also, and again 2218 02:25:07.920 --> 02:25:10.399 this is something that people generally only discussed from the 2219 02:25:10.559 --> 02:25:15.159 iconics the Battle of France. I realized the first open 2220 02:25:15.280 --> 02:25:21.200 ended deployment of the Fairmacht was in Poland. But Poland 2221 02:25:21.239 --> 02:25:28.360 didn't have a meaningful uh you know, tank section. So 2222 02:25:28.520 --> 02:25:37.360 we're talking about you know, modern combined arms between you know, 2223 02:25:37.399 --> 02:25:41.520 between forces where it's like a general parody. You know, 2224 02:25:41.559 --> 02:25:48.120 technological as well as numerical are our r analysis begins. 2225 02:25:48.120 --> 02:25:55.000 In nineteen forty Lontma directed that tank companies can only 2226 02:25:55.079 --> 02:25:59.280 could not operate in isolation from one another. They had utilized, 2227 02:25:59.319 --> 02:26:03.760 they had utilized massed firepower and advance of fire and addition, 2228 02:26:04.200 --> 02:26:08.760 the transport company and the supporting mobile workshop and maintenance company. 2229 02:26:09.840 --> 02:26:12.920 You know, they had to be maintained at optimal capabilities 2230 02:26:12.959 --> 02:26:15.079 and deployed to the front at all times and support 2231 02:26:15.159 --> 02:26:19.840 the assault element, you know, regardless of the drain that 2232 02:26:20.079 --> 02:26:25.239 this is gonna you know, place on on the regular 2233 02:26:25.319 --> 02:26:31.479 infantry and on you know, the corp of engineers and 2234 02:26:31.600 --> 02:26:33.479 anybody else. You know, this is yours, this is your 2235 02:26:33.479 --> 02:26:37.319 assault element. This is the share punk of your assault element. 2236 02:26:37.440 --> 02:26:40.799 You know, it has to take absolute priority and that yeah, okay, 2237 02:26:40.799 --> 02:26:42.879 we take that for granted today. But again this is 2238 02:26:43.079 --> 02:26:46.719 this is nineteen thirty six in Spain. Okay, armored armored 2239 02:26:46.719 --> 02:26:49.600 warfare as we know it doesn't exist yet, you know, 2240 02:26:49.840 --> 02:26:54.440 and this is four years this is three three years 2241 02:26:54.440 --> 02:26:56.639 and some months before the Battle of France. Okay, so 2242 02:26:56.719 --> 02:27:03.799 this is remarkably sick. I spoke a moment ago about 2243 02:27:04.280 --> 02:27:07.840 there's a lot said, especially because you know, relations were 2244 02:27:07.879 --> 02:27:15.280 not always particularly amiable. You know, between the Germans and 2245 02:27:15.319 --> 02:27:17.680 their Latin allies, whether we're talking about you know, the 2246 02:27:17.719 --> 02:27:22.440 Italians of the Spaniards. A lot of people insinuate that 2247 02:27:22.479 --> 02:27:24.600 there was a kind of like ugly racial prejudice at 2248 02:27:24.639 --> 02:27:32.000 work there. I think that's overstated what came to be 2249 02:27:32.079 --> 02:27:37.879 known perhaps kind of you know. I mean, it's what 2250 02:27:37.959 --> 02:27:43.239 came you know as a Tomorrow affair, which seems to 2251 02:27:43.280 --> 02:27:47.920 overstate the significance of it, you know, by characterizing it 2252 02:27:47.920 --> 02:27:50.799 as with some sort of scandal. On December thirty first, 2253 02:27:50.879 --> 02:27:54.600 nineteen thirty eight, but Tolma sent an urgent telegram to 2254 02:27:57.680 --> 02:28:02.799 Infantry Colonel Ricardo from that this the tamer he was 2255 02:28:02.799 --> 02:28:07.000 the primary liaison with Franco's high command or the equivalent 2256 02:28:07.040 --> 02:28:13.079 of a general staff okay, and in some basic capacity, 2257 02:28:14.280 --> 02:28:17.200 and uh, this was going into the final phase of 2258 02:28:17.239 --> 02:28:21.360 the war. Vntoma demanded know on certain terms to be 2259 02:28:21.440 --> 02:28:26.399 infeigned beforehand of any change of an operational or logistical nature, 2260 02:28:26.840 --> 02:28:30.760 or any personnel related matter or policy. And this had 2261 02:28:30.879 --> 02:28:32.440 all these things that to be subject to his view 2262 02:28:32.520 --> 02:28:35.959 or approval, you know, And he reiterated, I, you know, 2263 02:28:36.040 --> 02:28:38.760 I was appointed by Franco his tank inspector. You know, 2264 02:28:38.840 --> 02:28:43.079 and is is a demand is not immediately obeyed, I 2265 02:28:43.799 --> 02:28:46.680 will withdraw my contribution. In his words, So again this 2266 02:28:46.760 --> 02:28:49.399 is him threatening to throw his hands up and resign. 2267 02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:53.079 You could read that as him being a prima donna 2268 02:28:53.159 --> 02:28:56.040 of a sort. I think he was entirely serious. I 2269 02:28:56.040 --> 02:29:03.280 don't think that can be disputed. And again you're looking 2270 02:29:03.280 --> 02:29:05.760 at this army, which you know in the Spaniards, which 2271 02:29:05.799 --> 02:29:08.319 again has some very core of very game tough men, 2272 02:29:08.959 --> 02:29:12.840 but it's unbelievably and most comically corrupt, you know. Uh, 2273 02:29:14.600 --> 02:29:18.000 and it's only kind of held together at the level 2274 02:29:18.040 --> 02:29:23.399 of a general officers by people like Tom Marie, who 2275 02:29:23.399 --> 02:29:26.520 were you know and later surrouno sooner who will get 2276 02:29:26.520 --> 02:29:30.079 into it. Was a great man. But uh, you know, 2277 02:29:31.520 --> 02:29:36.200 cracking the whip on these people was uh what was essential? 2278 02:29:37.000 --> 02:29:39.479 You know. It doesn't owe to some kind of like 2279 02:29:39.520 --> 02:29:43.120 Teutonic racism against you know, Latins or something, which, uh, 2280 02:29:44.360 --> 02:29:47.639 that kind of interpretation has become increasingly common. I've noticed, 2281 02:29:47.719 --> 02:29:50.399 you know, even in like military history, which is supposed 2282 02:29:50.399 --> 02:29:53.159 to be just kind of like hard and fast accounts 2283 02:29:53.200 --> 02:29:58.799 of the facts, you know, and the uh, the quantifiable 2284 02:29:58.840 --> 02:30:02.159 side of things. I think that's bullshit. You know, I mean, 2285 02:30:02.159 --> 02:30:05.719 that's why I but it's also there's what came of 2286 02:30:05.719 --> 02:30:11.600 of uh the Thomery memo was or telegram by Tomac Gott. 2287 02:30:11.639 --> 02:30:14.000 Whatever he wanted, he got everything he wanted, you know, 2288 02:30:14.040 --> 02:30:19.360 and he he basically became the de facto you know, 2289 02:30:19.440 --> 02:30:23.239 commander armored forces for nationalist Spain, you know. And that's 2290 02:30:23.559 --> 02:30:25.399 that goes to short of the degree to which the 2291 02:30:25.440 --> 02:30:30.760 Wehrmacht was the key to you know, uh nationalist victory 2292 02:30:30.760 --> 02:30:37.040 in the war. It wasn't you know, the loof Off 2293 02:30:37.280 --> 02:30:41.000 made a tremendous contribution. And and like we discussed, you know, 2294 02:30:41.319 --> 02:30:45.399 in the previous two episodes, Erhart Milch was was it 2295 02:30:45.440 --> 02:30:49.079 was a was a military genius and an incredible commander 2296 02:30:50.479 --> 02:30:52.760 and one of the greatest air commanders of all time. 2297 02:30:53.520 --> 02:30:56.239 I take nothing away from that, but it was you know, 2298 02:30:56.319 --> 02:31:00.000 wars are won, you know, by by the ground element, Okay, 2299 02:31:00.120 --> 02:31:06.399 they are, and this was essential to that effort. And 2300 02:31:07.840 --> 02:31:11.639 we're not just talking about, you know, with without von Tolma, 2301 02:31:11.760 --> 02:31:14.319 like there is no there is no there is no 2302 02:31:14.479 --> 02:31:17.399 Spanish armored element. You know, you're throwing your you're throwing 2303 02:31:17.440 --> 02:31:19.799 Spanish industry at these t twenty six tanks, they're being 2304 02:31:19.840 --> 02:31:24.559 cut to pieces. You know, is the fact not only 2305 02:31:24.600 --> 02:31:31.120 that he was able to constitute you know, armored force 2306 02:31:31.200 --> 02:31:34.600 or before there had been nothing, but he managed to 2307 02:31:34.600 --> 02:31:37.799 do this really with a handful of of pans or ones, 2308 02:31:38.840 --> 02:31:40.920 armed with a couple of light machine guns and not 2309 02:31:41.000 --> 02:31:44.680 particularly durable armor. And he was able to convince a 2310 02:31:44.719 --> 02:31:47.120 much of proud Spaniards to basically like hand him like 2311 02:31:47.200 --> 02:31:50.840 absolute authority over the over the entire enterprise. That's that's 2312 02:31:50.840 --> 02:31:55.680 nothing sort of remarkable. I don't don't think it could 2313 02:31:55.719 --> 02:32:10.799 be contested, but there's uh, subsequent and particularly in like 2314 02:32:10.840 --> 02:32:13.399 the final months of the war in ninet thirty nine, 2315 02:32:13.920 --> 02:32:18.479 they developed this kind of like genuinely amicable cordiality, at 2316 02:32:18.600 --> 02:32:22.920 least as far as you can discern through the language 2317 02:32:22.959 --> 02:32:26.239 barrier and through their you know, brevity of of these 2318 02:32:26.239 --> 02:32:32.799 written communicats and telegrams between Montona and tamer But the uh, 2319 02:32:33.719 --> 02:32:37.840 the rest of these Spanish officers too, who initially had 2320 02:32:37.879 --> 02:32:43.559 a you know, been not out and out hostile because 2321 02:32:43.559 --> 02:32:47.879 they realized the various situation and that they needed they 2322 02:32:47.920 --> 02:32:54.000 needed the Germans. But you know, they certainly Spaniards are 2323 02:32:54.000 --> 02:32:59.200 a proud people. If nothing else and it was a 2324 02:32:59.200 --> 02:33:05.520 better pill for them to swallow a seed control a 2325 02:33:05.680 --> 02:33:07.959 Veramacht officer in that way, although there's no shame in that, 2326 02:33:08.399 --> 02:33:10.920 you know, the Vermont was the best and they're they're 2327 02:33:10.920 --> 02:33:18.079 the greatest of all time. By the end of the war, ultimately, 2328 02:33:18.639 --> 02:33:26.120 Spanish tankers they were undergoing a sixty day course basic 2329 02:33:26.200 --> 02:33:33.840 course for all personnel, you know, those uh, those who 2330 02:33:33.879 --> 02:33:36.120 were trained to be drivers as well as those training 2331 02:33:36.120 --> 02:33:40.600 to be gunners. It was thirty days of theoretical training, 2332 02:33:41.159 --> 02:33:47.559 thirty days of practice duration and then UH intensive combat 2333 02:33:47.600 --> 02:33:51.920 training and then deployment to the front as needed. So 2334 02:33:51.959 --> 02:33:56.239 there's a constant you know, like as has discussed a 2335 02:33:56.280 --> 02:34:00.600 moment ago, there was a constant flow of replacements, you 2336 02:34:00.639 --> 02:34:05.440 know who UH had at least cohesion within the squad 2337 02:34:05.559 --> 02:34:09.079 of a KI and that only comes from you know, 2338 02:34:09.120 --> 02:34:14.680 living and UH fighting together ordinarily because they'd gone to 2339 02:34:14.760 --> 02:34:16.799 the training cycle. And a lot of these men were 2340 02:34:16.840 --> 02:34:19.639 combat veterans too, just not of you know, obviously, not 2341 02:34:19.760 --> 02:34:22.559 of fighting an armor. You know, some were, some had 2342 02:34:22.600 --> 02:34:27.559 no no prior experience, but they were the minority. But 2343 02:34:27.680 --> 02:34:37.639 the UH what's fascinating too is that the UH, the 2344 02:34:37.680 --> 02:34:43.559 anti tank element that Montou insisted upon that particular assault gun. 2345 02:34:44.159 --> 02:34:51.760 It was a three point seven centimeter assault gun. It 2346 02:34:51.799 --> 02:34:55.879 was manufactured by Ryan Medel Borsing, and it rapidly became 2347 02:34:55.959 --> 02:35:00.280 ubiquitous like that itself, that like that making lott of 2348 02:35:00.319 --> 02:35:04.639 itself as well as reverse engineered knockoffs in the in 2349 02:35:04.879 --> 02:35:07.239 this in the Red Army, in the in the US Army, 2350 02:35:07.479 --> 02:35:14.120 the Japanese imitated it, uh, the the the Wehrmacht faced 2351 02:35:14.120 --> 02:35:16.319 them in the in the Benlux countries when they went 2352 02:35:16.319 --> 02:35:19.840 through Holland. The Italians deployed it, you know, as late 2353 02:35:19.879 --> 02:35:24.280 as uh as late as forty three, like around the 2354 02:35:24.280 --> 02:35:29.520 time the Celeronal landings. So again, like even even though 2355 02:35:29.840 --> 02:35:33.600 these uh pretty much every pretty much every weapons platform 2356 02:35:33.600 --> 02:35:35.840 we've described again it was like obsolescent, but they had 2357 02:35:35.840 --> 02:35:39.040 been a World War Two. But these were perfectly suited 2358 02:35:39.360 --> 02:35:47.200 to the Spanish battle space, and it was uh, it 2359 02:35:47.280 --> 02:35:51.120 was the experience of these platforms they're you know, in 2360 02:35:51.200 --> 02:35:55.680 heavy combat over years that led to the development of 2361 02:35:56.120 --> 02:36:01.040 you know, successor technologies. And I find that fascinating, and 2362 02:36:02.120 --> 02:36:04.760 you know, that's why, like I said, there's plenty of 2363 02:36:04.799 --> 02:36:12.120 historians who posit that the the Second World War actually 2364 02:36:12.159 --> 02:36:17.079 started in Spain from a historicis's gonna hit the Ali perspective, 2365 02:36:17.799 --> 02:36:21.600 I've got more than a little bit of sympathy for 2366 02:36:21.639 --> 02:36:31.799 that perspective. But it's also military objectives were oddly bound 2367 02:36:31.879 --> 02:36:36.719 up with policy objectives in the twentieth century in a 2368 02:36:36.760 --> 02:36:43.719 way that was not conceivable before or since. And it 2369 02:36:43.760 --> 02:36:47.040 wasn't just that, you know, the German rech and Hitler 2370 02:36:47.120 --> 02:36:55.760 himself had a concept of Laban's wrong and racial posterity 2371 02:36:55.799 --> 02:37:00.200 and the need to develop Europe into a superpower, the 2372 02:37:00.239 --> 02:37:02.680 age of the superpower. It arrived. That was part of it, 2373 02:37:03.040 --> 02:37:09.719 but it owed everybody, from Werner Sombart to George Sorell 2374 02:37:10.000 --> 02:37:15.600 to uh Ernest Younger made the point, you know, sometimes obliquely, 2375 02:37:15.799 --> 02:37:20.280 sometimes very directly that just the nature of labor and 2376 02:37:20.399 --> 02:37:25.079 production and technics in the first half of the twentieth 2377 02:37:25.079 --> 02:37:30.760 century just lent itself to warfare and organized violence at 2378 02:37:30.840 --> 02:37:38.520 scale just became something like potentialities therein like led to 2379 02:37:38.559 --> 02:37:43.479 it being a tactic of first recourse, you know, whether 2380 02:37:43.520 --> 02:37:47.319 you're talking about the internal situation of states or whether 2381 02:37:47.360 --> 02:37:53.000 you're talking about you know, resolving irridentist claims as we're 2382 02:37:53.040 --> 02:38:00.639 always you know, an ongoing issue in a European cabinet politics, 2383 02:38:02.280 --> 02:38:04.840 you know, there's not I made the point again and again. 2384 02:38:07.639 --> 02:38:11.399 It's fascinating that the German contribution to the Enlightenment, kind 2385 02:38:11.399 --> 02:38:15.120 of their only full embrace of rationalism was in military science. 2386 02:38:15.159 --> 02:38:20.040 To Clausalis, But war is not just diplomacy by their 2387 02:38:20.079 --> 02:38:24.959 means or politics by their means. There's always a political 2388 02:38:25.000 --> 02:38:27.959 aspect of warfare. But going to war do unders solve 2389 02:38:28.040 --> 02:38:31.639 political problems, you know, in fact, it almost never does. 2390 02:38:33.200 --> 02:38:41.360 The twentieth century, in a rare capacity, there was a 2391 02:38:41.399 --> 02:38:47.799 perfect congruence between military power and the ability to realize 2392 02:38:48.440 --> 02:38:54.399 high political objectives, and that is kind of the moral 2393 02:38:54.399 --> 02:38:57.760 of the story here, if there is one. I realized 2394 02:38:57.760 --> 02:39:02.040 that this was a very heavy, uh, kind of technical discussion, 2395 02:39:02.159 --> 02:39:08.440 but it's important to understanding the German contribution to the war, 2396 02:39:09.120 --> 02:39:11.239 and I wanted to this is this is my dedicated 2397 02:39:11.280 --> 02:39:15.600 Condo Relegion episode. We'll get into the Flange and we'll 2398 02:39:15.600 --> 02:39:18.399 get into the ideology of the Spanish nationalist and we'll 2399 02:39:18.399 --> 02:39:21.680 get into kind of the development of the situation there 2400 02:39:22.360 --> 02:39:24.159 in the next episode. But I wanted to get this 2401 02:39:24.200 --> 02:39:26.239 out of the way. Plus I hope people find it 2402 02:39:26.319 --> 02:39:29.639 interesting because I I mean, admittedly, one of my primary 2403 02:39:29.760 --> 02:39:32.799 research areas is the Third Reich. But even were that 2404 02:39:32.879 --> 02:39:37.760 not the case, that this positive variable in the Spanish 2405 02:39:37.760 --> 02:39:40.879 Civil War was the intervention of condo religion or by 2406 02:39:40.920 --> 02:39:44.360 condo religion. So I think, uh, I think it's just 2407 02:39:44.440 --> 02:39:45.760 material on its own terms. 2408 02:39:46.399 --> 02:39:48.920 Today has been a long day. Give plugs and we'll 2409 02:39:48.920 --> 02:39:49.559 get out of here. 2410 02:39:50.360 --> 02:39:54.879 Yeah. Man, you can find me always on substeck at 2411 02:39:54.959 --> 02:39:59.079 real Thomas seven seven seven dot subsec dot com in 2412 02:39:59.079 --> 02:40:01.280 a couple of weeks and launching season two of the 2413 02:40:01.319 --> 02:40:04.319 Mind Phaser podcast, and when I do, all the season 2414 02:40:04.399 --> 02:40:07.120 one episodes will be available for free. A lot of 2415 02:40:07.159 --> 02:40:12.399 things are gonna change in my content brand. I think 2416 02:40:12.440 --> 02:40:17.799 everybody will find that to be a positive change. I've 2417 02:40:17.799 --> 02:40:21.920 got a lot going on. I'm still on Twitter, uh, 2418 02:40:22.159 --> 02:40:24.959 but I am trying to disengage from there a bit. 2419 02:40:25.040 --> 02:40:32.520 As I've said, I've uh, I know, I said about 2420 02:40:32.520 --> 02:40:35.479 a week ago, I was gonna drop a statement of 2421 02:40:35.520 --> 02:40:38.520 my substack about moving forward, like how things is gonna 2422 02:40:38.520 --> 02:40:40.719 work relating to you know, I'm gonna make a lot 2423 02:40:40.719 --> 02:40:43.000 more stuff free. But also, like I said, I there's 2424 02:40:43.040 --> 02:40:44.719 some projects I kind of want to plug that I 2425 02:40:44.719 --> 02:40:46.680 I had to put in the back burner, like going 2426 02:40:46.719 --> 02:40:50.040 to frankly like ill health and stuff. But that's back 2427 02:40:50.079 --> 02:40:55.120 on track. I'll explicate that on my substack by this weekend. 2428 02:40:55.799 --> 02:40:57.680 I'm not going to take up Peach time when his 2429 02:40:57.760 --> 02:41:00.959 show to do that. But thanks again for the invitation 2430 02:41:01.319 --> 02:41:04.840 today and always, man, I hope everybody found this to 2431 02:41:04.840 --> 02:41:08.280 be constructive and stimulating well. 2432 02:41:08.120 --> 02:41:10.120 And I just want to encourage people to go to 2433 02:41:10.159 --> 02:41:14.200 Thomas's substack and subscribe. I mean I I went there, 2434 02:41:14.280 --> 02:41:20.239 read one free article and subscribed and immediately started promoting 2435 02:41:20.719 --> 02:41:24.879 Thomas's work on Twitter. And then Thomas was nice enough 2436 02:41:24.879 --> 02:41:27.520 to come on the show and what is this U 2437 02:41:28.719 --> 02:41:29.920 forty episodes later. 2438 02:41:31.040 --> 02:41:34.159 No, yeah, that's a fantastic endorsement. Man. I mean not 2439 02:41:34.239 --> 02:41:36.399 just because you're a serious guy and you're my friend, 2440 02:41:36.479 --> 02:41:40.319 but no, I really really appreciate getting me a platform, 2441 02:41:40.399 --> 02:41:44.559 and otherwise I would not have nearly the audience that 2442 02:41:44.600 --> 02:41:46.799 I have. And plus, I mean, like I said, I 2443 02:41:46.840 --> 02:41:51.680 think I hope people we'll get something else, and I 2444 02:41:51.719 --> 02:41:54.920 think they do because feedback has been you know, formally positive, 2445 02:41:54.959 --> 02:41:57.559 and it's not It's not always the case with things 2446 02:41:57.559 --> 02:42:01.000 I do. So yeah, I can't thank you enough, as 2447 02:42:01.000 --> 02:42:02.879 well as the people who tune in and you know, 2448 02:42:02.920 --> 02:42:04.799 were mean engaged. That's just great. 2449 02:42:05.280 --> 02:42:10.600 I appreciate it. Thomas, thank you. I want to welcome 2450 02:42:10.600 --> 02:42:14.559 everyone back to the Pecanas Show, part four of the 2451 02:42:14.600 --> 02:42:17.639 Spanish Civil War series. I'm going to turn it over 2452 02:42:17.719 --> 02:42:20.840 to Thomas seven seven seven and just let him go. 2453 02:42:21.079 --> 02:42:22.799 Let me just ask how you doing. 2454 02:42:22.719 --> 02:42:27.200 Thomas, and very well? Thanks. What I want to talk 2455 02:42:27.200 --> 02:42:30.399 about today? It might seem as I'm jumping around a 2456 02:42:30.440 --> 02:42:32.520 lot on the topic, and forgive me for that, but 2457 02:42:33.959 --> 02:42:35.799 there's some things that I sort of want to tie in, 2458 02:42:37.280 --> 02:42:42.319 not just to our earlier series, revisionist series that we've done, 2459 02:42:44.200 --> 02:42:46.959 but also people have been asking questions that I want 2460 02:42:47.000 --> 02:42:51.600 to kind of address now, you know, one of which 2461 02:42:51.680 --> 02:42:56.840 is to us just two things. People ask me why 2462 02:42:56.879 --> 02:43:01.000 I'm so critical of Franco, because the Franco somewhat revered, 2463 02:43:01.639 --> 02:43:04.280 and part of that owes the frankly kind of the 2464 02:43:04.360 --> 02:43:08.799 lingering kind of a lingering Cold War hangover, you know, 2465 02:43:08.879 --> 02:43:12.000 especially after Spain sort of normalides, and you know, not 2466 02:43:12.559 --> 02:43:15.159 it was brought into the the e C at least 2467 02:43:15.159 --> 02:43:17.959 in a rudimentary way, I mean ship back then it 2468 02:43:18.000 --> 02:43:19.879 was the European It was the e c S, the 2469 02:43:19.879 --> 02:43:23.079 Cold and Steel Community, you know, by Eisenhower. It wasn't 2470 02:43:23.159 --> 02:43:26.120 until much later that Spain was assimilated in the NATO. 2471 02:43:26.840 --> 02:43:32.280 But the Franco regime is always it's uh. And I 2472 02:43:32.360 --> 02:43:35.840 mean even before that officially assimilated and formally assimilated in NATO, 2473 02:43:36.879 --> 02:43:38.920 there was a lot of you know, during command post 2474 02:43:38.920 --> 02:43:41.399 exercises and stuff, you know, like Spain would you know, 2475 02:43:41.440 --> 02:43:47.159 be included in a basic way there was Spain was 2476 02:43:47.239 --> 02:43:49.879 kind of viewed as you know, the good guy, uh, 2477 02:43:50.040 --> 02:43:54.479 like quasi fascist regime during the Cold War. And I 2478 02:43:54.520 --> 02:43:57.959 think that a lot of scholarship, like otherwise pretty based 2479 02:43:58.000 --> 02:44:00.920 and pretty correct, you know, right when it's dollarship. You know, 2480 02:44:01.079 --> 02:44:04.399 that was written in like the seventies and in the eighties. 2481 02:44:04.680 --> 02:44:10.159 You know, I think people internalize that. And also you know, 2482 02:44:10.200 --> 02:44:12.120 their their kind of view of Franco is of you know, 2483 02:44:12.159 --> 02:44:15.840 the Flange movement and you know the heroics of of 2484 02:44:15.879 --> 02:44:18.559 the war and you know kind of reliegion and all 2485 02:44:18.559 --> 02:44:23.840 of that. You know, they they they don't realize kind 2486 02:44:23.840 --> 02:44:28.000 of how perfect it is and and and machiavellian Franco was. 2487 02:44:28.120 --> 02:44:30.479 And I think that could be justified if if what 2488 02:44:30.520 --> 02:44:35.840 Franco accomplished with some sort of enduring political culture, you know, 2489 02:44:35.920 --> 02:44:39.639 that of that that served you know, the Spanish as 2490 02:44:39.639 --> 02:44:41.959 a people, you know, and as as a race, you know, 2491 02:44:42.000 --> 02:44:44.600 in historical terms and things, But that that's not at 2492 02:44:44.639 --> 02:44:46.840 all what he accomplished. I mean, Franco at the end 2493 02:44:46.840 --> 02:44:49.639 of the day, accomplished nothing. I'd say that he was 2494 02:44:49.639 --> 02:44:53.879 a detriment you know, over the over the long term. 2495 02:44:53.959 --> 02:44:56.000 But you know, so people ask, I want to get 2496 02:44:56.000 --> 02:44:59.879 into a little bit like what exactly you know, Franco's 2497 02:45:00.120 --> 02:45:04.040 sensibilities were on political matters, you know, pritically at the 2498 02:45:04.079 --> 02:45:08.680 most critical junctures, you know which and the most critical 2499 02:45:08.719 --> 02:45:13.680 obviously would would be the the warriors that the Second 2500 02:45:13.719 --> 02:45:17.079 World War, I mean not the Spanish War. But also 2501 02:45:17.120 --> 02:45:19.319 people ask me like what what exactly was the nature 2502 02:45:19.360 --> 02:45:23.120 of the relationship, you know, between Madrid and Berlin and 2503 02:45:23.120 --> 02:45:26.680 and Madrid and the rest of the Access Alliance, and uh, 2504 02:45:26.799 --> 02:45:30.040 you know, I've made the point that Serrano soon there 2505 02:45:30.319 --> 02:45:32.760 was a great man, and he was very you know, 2506 02:45:32.799 --> 02:45:34.959 he was he was very very pro axis. You know, 2507 02:45:35.040 --> 02:45:37.959 he he wanted to formally join the Access Alliance. And 2508 02:45:37.959 --> 02:45:39.680 we'll get into who soon there was in a minute, 2509 02:45:39.719 --> 02:45:41.920 but so I kind of want to get into that 2510 02:45:42.559 --> 02:45:46.479 today and then we'll pivot in the next episode and 2511 02:45:46.520 --> 02:45:49.040 talk about, you know what the Falange movement was proper 2512 02:45:49.680 --> 02:45:59.600 and ye pick up as a follow up, uh, you know, 2513 02:45:59.639 --> 02:46:02.399 to the ear each a episode we just did. But 2514 02:46:02.520 --> 02:46:05.280 for now, for today, that's that's what I want to cover. 2515 02:46:05.559 --> 02:46:07.200 And plus it's like on my mind, I was, I 2516 02:46:07.239 --> 02:46:09.280 was researching this a bunch, like owing to some other 2517 02:46:09.319 --> 02:46:12.079 stuff I'm writing. So, I mean, it's convenient too, There's 2518 02:46:12.120 --> 02:46:13.600 only so much time in the day, and while it's 2519 02:46:13.639 --> 02:46:16.280 like fresh in my mind, That's kind of what I 2520 02:46:16.319 --> 02:46:23.719 wanted to get into. David Irving who I I mean, 2521 02:46:23.760 --> 02:46:25.680 it goes out saying I've got a huge esteem for him. 2522 02:46:26.360 --> 02:46:28.840 Irving lived in Spain and one of his one of 2523 02:46:28.879 --> 02:46:31.079 the one of his wives was a Spanish woman. I 2524 02:46:31.079 --> 02:46:35.239 think his first wife was a Spanish woman, and he 2525 02:46:35.280 --> 02:46:39.520 famously said life and quote life in Spain during the 2526 02:46:39.559 --> 02:46:43.479 Franco years was very cheap, very simple, and very unthreatening. 2527 02:46:43.760 --> 02:46:47.280 There's little criminality, no drugs and no street muggings. The 2528 02:46:47.399 --> 02:46:50.680 roads were primitive, the life was quiet, and the sunshine 2529 02:46:50.719 --> 02:46:52.920 meet up for everything. I mean that was kind of 2530 02:46:53.840 --> 02:46:56.479 In some ways that's like a very English like backhanded compliment. 2531 02:46:56.799 --> 02:47:00.479 In other ways it's you know, it's it's a very 2532 02:47:00.520 --> 02:47:05.040 on the nose suggestion that you know, Spain was just 2533 02:47:05.559 --> 02:47:08.319 remained a backwater, you know. I mean, I realized there 2534 02:47:08.319 --> 02:47:13.520 was a Spanish miracle and uh, you know, conspiracy conspiracy 2535 02:47:13.520 --> 02:47:15.879 minded types like say like oh that was Opus day, 2536 02:47:15.920 --> 02:47:19.920 you know, laundering money through Spain under rospices of economic development. 2537 02:47:19.920 --> 02:47:21.559 I don't even I don't have any opinion on that. 2538 02:47:21.559 --> 02:47:25.079 I don't. I don't get to know interesting Catholic fights, 2539 02:47:25.559 --> 02:47:27.799 and I'm not a biggest I don't. I don't tear 2540 02:47:27.840 --> 02:47:32.120 down the Catholic Church, you know, at every opportunity like 2541 02:47:32.159 --> 02:47:37.319 some revisionists do, pite the contrary, but regardless anyone's feelings 2542 02:47:37.360 --> 02:47:39.639 on that, I mean, Spain was not exactly lighting the 2543 02:47:39.639 --> 02:47:43.079 world on fire, okay, like in the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies, 2544 02:47:43.120 --> 02:47:48.959 you know it it Uh, it remained kind of an splendid, 2545 02:47:49.760 --> 02:47:52.959 splendid isolation. It was I think about almost as kind 2546 02:47:52.959 --> 02:47:54.719 of like a right wing version of of like the 2547 02:47:54.760 --> 02:47:58.239 Tito model, you know, like obviously like there there wasn't 2548 02:47:58.559 --> 02:48:01.239 I mean that there, I realized that Spain's you know, 2549 02:48:01.559 --> 02:48:04.319 had and has like you know, violence, separatist movements, and 2550 02:48:04.360 --> 02:48:06.959 it's ethnically diverse. But you know, obviously it's it's nothing 2551 02:48:07.000 --> 02:48:12.079 like the hostility between between populations like in the Balkans. 2552 02:48:12.120 --> 02:48:14.959 But you know, Tito's whole notion was to keep you know, 2553 02:48:15.440 --> 02:48:17.399 just kind of keep things frozen and keep this kind 2554 02:48:17.399 --> 02:48:22.440 of quarantine almost like prophylactic armor like over you know, 2555 02:48:22.479 --> 02:48:26.440 the the the nation of the Constitute of Yugoslavia like 2556 02:48:26.479 --> 02:48:28.680 contrivances it may have been as a state. You know, 2557 02:48:28.719 --> 02:48:30.879 it kept the Soviet Union out, it kept America out, 2558 02:48:31.200 --> 02:48:33.399 it kept everybody out, you know, kept the Germans out, 2559 02:48:34.360 --> 02:48:39.440 the bundesh and even even Germany was very much tethered 2560 02:48:39.440 --> 02:48:41.719 to the Balkans and not in geostrategic terms, you know, 2561 02:48:41.760 --> 02:48:43.879 as we talked about before. It's why Helmet Cole immediately 2562 02:48:43.920 --> 02:48:48.399 recognized two Jamon's independent Croatia. But the point is, uh, 2563 02:48:48.719 --> 02:48:52.120 such that Franko accomplished anything. I mean, he basically yeah, 2564 02:48:52.159 --> 02:48:56.639 he basically just uh you know, he basically just just 2565 02:48:56.639 --> 02:48:59.079 just put Spain under like lock and key, like you know, 2566 02:48:59.239 --> 02:49:03.639 in every concee sense, like figuratively and literally, but again 2567 02:49:03.680 --> 02:49:11.360 that's not that doesn't generate anything sustainable. So what what uh? 2568 02:49:12.440 --> 02:49:20.920 What exactly happened between Germany and Spain? Rib and Troup 2569 02:49:21.120 --> 02:49:25.319 was you know, as foreign minister was primarily charged with 2570 02:49:26.000 --> 02:49:34.120 finessing the Franco regime, you know, to join the war effort. 2571 02:49:34.159 --> 02:49:38.719 It uh, And can ask a question before you all 2572 02:49:39.120 --> 02:49:43.040 this this this is something that people would ask were 2573 02:49:43.040 --> 02:49:45.879 they in any kind of shape to join? 2574 02:49:46.360 --> 02:49:49.479 I mean they just went through three at three and 2575 02:49:49.479 --> 02:49:50.479 a half years of hell. 2576 02:49:52.440 --> 02:49:54.879 Yeah, And we're going to get into that. Like Franco ahead, 2577 02:49:55.920 --> 02:49:59.280 Franco had a list quite literally ever increasing material demands, 2578 02:49:59.360 --> 02:50:03.440 with material and political demands that had to be met 2579 02:50:03.479 --> 02:50:07.600 for Spain to join the war effort. Owing to that 2580 02:50:08.840 --> 02:50:14.639 very reality, however, it fairly quickly became clear that he 2581 02:50:14.760 --> 02:50:19.319 was not negotiating in good faith. You know. The the 2582 02:50:19.319 --> 02:50:21.120 the extent of these demands was such that they just 2583 02:50:21.159 --> 02:50:22.879 they could not be met, you know, and that was 2584 02:50:22.920 --> 02:50:25.399 the whole point. But we'll get into that in a minute. 2585 02:50:25.920 --> 02:50:32.639 But what what the Reich needed the Spain? The Reich needed, uh, 2586 02:50:33.399 --> 02:50:38.000 the Reich needed unconditional access to Gibraltar. The Reich needed 2587 02:50:38.000 --> 02:50:42.239 the Spanish to join in Africa and abandon you know, 2588 02:50:42.360 --> 02:50:47.120 the uh, the uh, the uncompromising claims they were making 2589 02:50:47.159 --> 02:50:52.959 on French Africa as well, particularly not exclusively Morocco. Finally, 2590 02:50:54.600 --> 02:50:58.159 Spain basically needed to needed to do avail itself as 2591 02:50:58.399 --> 02:51:01.600 as as part of Fortress Europe as uh. You know, 2592 02:51:01.680 --> 02:51:05.600 France that had done admittedly like post defeat, and France 2593 02:51:05.639 --> 02:51:08.479 plays into this equation more than people might think. Okay, 2594 02:51:08.559 --> 02:51:12.479 the UH, France and Germany despite what people claim, like 2595 02:51:12.879 --> 02:51:15.559 there was not like VC France and then free France. 2596 02:51:15.719 --> 02:51:21.799 I mean it's uh. Obviously the Gaul was uh, you know, 2597 02:51:21.840 --> 02:51:24.840 the Allies were suggesting that you know, de Gaul was 2598 02:51:24.879 --> 02:51:29.079 the true like you know, French president in exile and 2599 02:51:29.120 --> 02:51:33.440 that you know, Peten's regime was illegitimate. But Peten was 2600 02:51:33.440 --> 02:51:37.840 literally a national hero, okay, and the French accepted the 2601 02:51:37.879 --> 02:51:42.399 fact that they were defeated. You know, I posted up 2602 02:51:42.440 --> 02:51:46.479 the other week or the other day of my timeline 2603 02:51:46.840 --> 02:51:49.879 footage of uh. You know, the Germans like you know 2604 02:51:50.879 --> 02:51:55.719 allowing uh, allowing the defeated French like full honors and 2605 02:51:55.959 --> 02:51:58.159 allowing to like march past you know, the Wehrmacht like 2606 02:51:58.200 --> 02:52:00.639 as they were like saluted, you know, and in full 2607 02:52:00.719 --> 02:52:03.040 regalia and everything. I mean, this was very much of a 2608 02:52:03.120 --> 02:52:07.959 Westphalian paradigm at work. Okay, you know this idea that 2609 02:52:08.040 --> 02:52:10.479 you know, France just hated Germany with this kind of 2610 02:52:10.479 --> 02:52:13.440 like hell bent passion, and you know, the v regime 2611 02:52:13.600 --> 02:52:16.399 was was was completely contrived and was a fiction like 2612 02:52:16.440 --> 02:52:22.719 that's not true. And furthermore, the British immediately uh began 2613 02:52:22.799 --> 02:52:28.479 attacking French forces in Africa. You know, they killed thousands 2614 02:52:28.520 --> 02:52:31.319 of people, you know, not French touristmen, civilians. I mean 2615 02:52:31.319 --> 02:52:36.680 we'll get into that too. But essentially, what the Reich 2616 02:52:36.799 --> 02:52:41.639 needed in the West, they needed France and Spain somehow 2617 02:52:41.680 --> 02:52:47.040 come to terms, you know, on sovereign claims in Africa. 2618 02:52:48.440 --> 02:52:53.600 Spain had to you know, cooperate operationally and politically with 2619 02:52:53.760 --> 02:52:59.159 you know, a Gibraltar operation, and you know, Spain had 2620 02:52:59.159 --> 02:53:03.559 to fortify and you know, prepare for prepared to resist 2621 02:53:03.760 --> 02:53:11.280 any Anglo American assault a Spanish or Portuguese coastal soil 2622 02:53:14.399 --> 02:53:18.879 and those those you know, those were basically like what 2623 02:53:20.840 --> 02:53:25.440 the fears and ambitions were. But even then, as things 2624 02:53:25.440 --> 02:53:29.200 had developed, I mean with respect to you know the 2625 02:53:29.200 --> 02:53:33.440 pattern of hostilities between combatants, you know, regardless of ideology, 2626 02:53:33.520 --> 02:53:35.079 because you know, the war in the West was very 2627 02:53:35.120 --> 02:53:37.000 different than the war in the East. There were certain 2628 02:53:37.040 --> 02:53:43.840 complexities present there, even in purely geostrategic terms. This what 2629 02:53:43.920 --> 02:53:46.360 I just outlined is what would have what would have 2630 02:53:46.399 --> 02:53:54.239 been required, Okay, you know, notwithstanding the idiosyncracies the actually 2631 02:53:54.239 --> 02:53:58.079 were perceived of, you know, the respective regimes in place 2632 02:53:58.159 --> 02:54:06.600 and in Vase, in Berlin and in Madrid. It uh. 2633 02:54:06.959 --> 02:54:16.120 On September nineteen forty was uh when Hitler first directed 2634 02:54:16.200 --> 02:54:18.399 Ribbon traup, you know, to push as hard as he 2635 02:54:18.479 --> 02:54:23.799 could for the Spanish to cooperate with you know, Gibraltar 2636 02:54:23.840 --> 02:54:25.959 offensive and to you know, encourage him to join what 2637 02:54:26.040 --> 02:54:31.399 he called the Grand Coalition. Hitler said to Ribin Trump 2638 02:54:31.399 --> 02:54:35.239 and on certain terms every aspirant would have to be 2639 02:54:35.319 --> 02:54:37.680 left and the quote heavy belief that his wishes would 2640 02:54:37.680 --> 02:54:42.079 be largely fulfilled. Rybond Troup wrote in his own notes 2641 02:54:42.159 --> 02:54:44.760 that to accomplish this would require quote fraud on a 2642 02:54:44.799 --> 02:54:48.680 grand scale. Raymond Tropp wasn't saying, like, oh, Hitler you know, 2643 02:54:48.879 --> 02:54:52.200 was uh was you know, anticipating, you know, perpetuating such 2644 02:54:52.200 --> 02:54:54.280 a fraud. Like what he was saying was that Hitler's 2645 02:54:54.360 --> 02:54:57.520 dreaming because this can't be realized, going to the going 2646 02:54:57.559 --> 02:55:02.159 to the unwillingness of the of the the parties, to 2647 02:55:02.280 --> 02:55:09.600 the you know, to you know, to the situation, you know, 2648 02:55:09.639 --> 02:55:14.600 and their and their unwillingness to you know, compromise on 2649 02:55:14.799 --> 02:55:17.319 issues that might appear to be of secondary importance from 2650 02:55:17.479 --> 02:55:19.920 you know, where Hitler was sitting in Berlin, but you know, 2651 02:55:20.159 --> 02:55:25.840 was of paramount importance to you know, to them, and 2652 02:55:28.000 --> 02:55:30.159 looking at it too, like it wasn't just a prestige 2653 02:55:30.200 --> 02:55:33.639 thing what Spain and France were looking at in Africa. 2654 02:55:33.840 --> 02:55:39.440 I mean these particularly with the you know, the uh, 2655 02:55:39.799 --> 02:55:49.799 the realization of strategic air power. But yeah, uh, these 2656 02:55:49.959 --> 02:55:52.920 were extential matters of of of security, you know, to 2657 02:55:53.000 --> 02:55:57.879 the states that orded the Mediterranean. So I mean that 2658 02:55:57.879 --> 02:56:00.120 that should be that should be clear. And plus to 2659 02:56:00.239 --> 02:56:03.120 the you know, the Spain in France were not. There 2660 02:56:03.159 --> 02:56:05.719 wasn't the there wasn't the ongoing you know kind of enmity, 2661 02:56:05.920 --> 02:56:07.639 you know, only the kind of the tragedy of strategic 2662 02:56:07.719 --> 02:56:10.000 situation that there was between Germany and France. But France 2663 02:56:10.040 --> 02:56:13.280 and Spain weren't natural allies by any means, you know, 2664 02:56:13.280 --> 02:56:14.559 I mean, it's not it's not as if there's some 2665 02:56:14.600 --> 02:56:16.760 sort of you know, common bond owing to you know, 2666 02:56:16.879 --> 02:56:20.600 Latin heritage and the Roman Church or something. It did 2667 02:56:20.639 --> 02:56:24.559 it Really it was just absence, even between Portugal, even 2668 02:56:24.600 --> 02:56:27.159 between sales there's Portugal and Franco Spain. I mean that 2669 02:56:27.239 --> 02:56:31.879 didn't exist, you know, I mean it wasn't that might 2670 02:56:31.920 --> 02:56:34.280 seem strange on some level the people who live, you know, 2671 02:56:34.319 --> 02:56:36.879 in kind of the globalized twenty first century, but at 2672 02:56:36.920 --> 02:56:44.159 the same time, like it doesn't, you know, Europe, a 2673 02:56:44.200 --> 02:56:45.920 lot of these a lot of these political cultures were 2674 02:56:45.920 --> 02:56:48.319 still mired and kind of like the War in States period, 2675 02:56:49.520 --> 02:56:54.799 you know, which endured in Europe until nineteen fourteen. I mean, 2676 02:56:55.040 --> 02:56:58.559 you know, and not you know, in a in a 2677 02:56:58.600 --> 02:57:02.920 real sense. I'm talking about abstrac postules here. Something. There's 2678 02:57:02.920 --> 02:57:04.760 that to keep in mind too. Even a Franco was 2679 02:57:04.799 --> 02:57:08.200 more worldly. And even if the ten was you know, 2680 02:57:08.239 --> 02:57:11.920 a younger man and not you know, this kind of 2681 02:57:11.920 --> 02:57:18.840 inflexible you know, Octageneerian Field Marshal I. I don't think 2682 02:57:19.760 --> 02:57:23.840 it would have been any easier to accommodate them, you know, 2683 02:57:23.879 --> 02:57:30.920 these kind of competing egos and demands. The uh what 2684 02:57:31.040 --> 02:57:37.319 Hitler's plan was at the Berghoff. You know. He his 2685 02:57:37.440 --> 02:57:41.559 timetable was this, he was going to contact a former 2686 02:57:41.600 --> 02:57:46.879 French ambassador, Poncet or Poncet, who Hitler had always had 2687 02:57:46.879 --> 02:57:51.559 a good rapport with. He was gonna feel him out 2688 02:57:51.639 --> 02:57:54.399 about a personal meeting with the ten and basically use 2689 02:57:54.520 --> 02:57:59.920 him as kind of like his unofficial emissary. He would 2690 02:58:00.040 --> 02:58:02.280 would visited to pretend, he would make his pitch to 2691 02:58:02.319 --> 02:58:08.959 contain that, you know, the United Kingdom, regardless of the 2692 02:58:08.959 --> 02:58:11.120 outcome this war, is going to leave France out to dry. 2693 02:58:13.079 --> 02:58:18.440 You know, they've humiliated they've humiliated France not just at 2694 02:58:18.479 --> 02:58:23.520 the car but also by you know, assaulting and sinking. 2695 02:58:25.600 --> 02:58:34.399 It's a navy in uh Algeria. You know, it's it's you. 2696 02:58:34.399 --> 02:58:36.360 You have to accept the situation as it is that 2697 02:58:36.440 --> 02:58:39.879 you know, France and London are at war and you 2698 02:58:39.920 --> 02:58:43.840 know Germany is really, uh the only port you have 2699 02:58:43.920 --> 02:58:49.040 in a storm. And once he got a war guaranty 2700 02:58:49.200 --> 02:58:53.719 from Paten, he would take that to Franco and UH 2701 02:58:54.959 --> 02:59:01.319 ask Franco to advocate if not moderate Rich demands to Morocco. 2702 02:59:01.639 --> 02:59:04.520 Take that to pretend and used as the basis for 2703 02:59:04.600 --> 02:59:09.760 future collaboration, which seems somewhat hair brained, but again, a 2704 02:59:09.760 --> 02:59:13.079 lot of what Hitler got done was based on personal 2705 02:59:13.120 --> 02:59:15.440 relationships and the fact that he was able to finesse 2706 02:59:15.479 --> 02:59:20.239 these relationships into actual policy commitments. Something this precedent for this, 2707 02:59:20.520 --> 02:59:24.399 and what Hitler had accomplished in the proceeding, you know, 2708 02:59:24.799 --> 02:59:30.719 several years, including after September nineteen thirty nine, you know, 2709 02:59:30.760 --> 02:59:34.159 so this was not just a pipe dream, and people 2710 02:59:34.239 --> 02:59:36.239 can't just dismiss it out right as oh, you know, 2711 02:59:36.360 --> 02:59:38.959 that was just Hitler being crazy, because everyone knows Hitler 2712 02:59:38.959 --> 02:59:44.440 went crazy, you know, after after you know, the Battle 2713 02:59:44.479 --> 02:59:46.559 of Moscow or something or whatever they like to say. 2714 02:59:47.479 --> 02:59:56.040 But Hitler interestingly too Pierre Leval, who was the Prime 2715 02:59:56.079 --> 02:59:59.920 Minister of France, he ended up being the prime mini 2716 03:00:00.000 --> 03:00:02.719 from nineteen forty two to forty four, April forty two 2717 03:00:02.840 --> 03:00:05.719 to August forty four, you know, and he'd served previously 2718 03:00:05.879 --> 03:00:08.559 in the in the same role in the Third Republic 2719 03:00:08.799 --> 03:00:12.319 from thirty one to thirty two, and then i think 2720 03:00:12.760 --> 03:00:16.319 from ninety thirty five to thirty six thirty seven. So 2721 03:00:16.440 --> 03:00:19.479 again that and Hitler and Laval had had a basic 2722 03:00:19.559 --> 03:00:24.200 rapport or there their respective liaisons, did you know. But 2723 03:00:24.319 --> 03:00:27.440 again I raised this because it becomes somewhat significant later. 2724 03:00:27.520 --> 03:00:31.479 But it's also like Laval again, he he was serving 2725 03:00:31.520 --> 03:00:34.639 you know the quote VC government, which supposedly was you know, 2726 03:00:34.719 --> 03:00:37.719 this illegitimate regime. I mean, this was not uncommon. I mean, 2727 03:00:37.760 --> 03:00:39.040 he was one of the most he was one of 2728 03:00:39.079 --> 03:00:50.559 the more prominent you know, cabinet ministers who it's off 2729 03:00:50.639 --> 03:00:53.040 in the same role that he had before. It's like 2730 03:00:53.159 --> 03:00:54.559 the idea this was just some kind of like you know, 2731 03:00:54.639 --> 03:00:56.559 client regime that you know had no kind of like 2732 03:00:56.639 --> 03:01:06.280 organic legitimacy or something is nonsense. But Hitler, uh, Hitler 2733 03:01:06.959 --> 03:01:13.440 sent out feelers to Laval as well for the purpose 2734 03:01:13.559 --> 03:01:16.639 of h and Laval didn't have any formal office at 2735 03:01:16.639 --> 03:01:19.920 this point, for for the purpose of getting a personal 2736 03:01:20.000 --> 03:01:24.840 audience with Patent, which was no easy thing. And again 2737 03:01:26.920 --> 03:01:29.079 you know, it tells you too like Hitler's approaching Paten, 2738 03:01:29.399 --> 03:01:31.719 you know, carefully, and he's treating him with all the 2739 03:01:31.760 --> 03:01:35.680 honor and respect of a field marshal. But also as 2740 03:01:35.719 --> 03:01:37.879 you know, with sovereign had a state, you know, I mean, 2741 03:01:37.959 --> 03:01:43.120 like think about this, and especially Hitler, who was definitely 2742 03:01:43.159 --> 03:01:49.079 more kind of cultured and diplomatically cautious than people allege, 2743 03:01:49.399 --> 03:01:52.440 but who is not exactly you know, a man who 2744 03:01:52.440 --> 03:01:56.639 favored a for nests over or action sometimes brute action 2745 03:01:56.760 --> 03:01:58.920 and the threat of it. You know, it's like if if, 2746 03:01:59.280 --> 03:02:02.399 if the VC regime is this completely artificial regime, Like 2747 03:02:02.440 --> 03:02:05.000 why isn't a Hitler just directing the Tan to do 2748 03:02:05.079 --> 03:02:09.200 whatever he orders? You know? I mean it's that right there. 2749 03:02:09.399 --> 03:02:13.280 I mean kind of shoots the pieces the the narrative 2750 03:02:13.319 --> 03:02:17.079 of you know, VC being artificial or you know, France 2751 03:02:17.200 --> 03:02:20.959 just either like not existing after you know, cessation of 2752 03:02:20.959 --> 03:02:23.879 hostilities in nineteen forty, or you know being this is 2753 03:02:23.920 --> 03:02:31.799 completely astro turf like artificial edifice, you know. And I 2754 03:02:32.000 --> 03:02:34.000 bring it up to people again and again, and. 2755 03:02:35.239 --> 03:02:37.799 I mean you went, you went over in in the 2756 03:02:37.840 --> 03:02:43.040 World War two series that when American troops landed in Africa, 2757 03:02:43.040 --> 03:02:45.280 who were the first people firing upon them? 2758 03:02:45.440 --> 03:02:47.319 Yeah? It was the French and it was well it's 2759 03:02:47.360 --> 03:02:51.360 old too. Yeah, I mean Darlan, who was the you know, 2760 03:02:51.399 --> 03:02:55.159 who was the Martinette or I don't even know what 2761 03:02:55.159 --> 03:02:57.799 you'd call him, procurator, you know, maybe I mean, here's 2762 03:02:57.799 --> 03:03:02.559 the military leader of a French Africa and yeah, he 2763 03:03:02.840 --> 03:03:08.000 Darlan considered VF to be the legitimate government of France, 2764 03:03:08.120 --> 03:03:10.600 and he considered France to be at war with the 2765 03:03:10.680 --> 03:03:13.280 United States of America. So yeah, I mean it doesn't, 2766 03:03:14.840 --> 03:03:17.680 it doesn't. Yeah, you got you gotta look at France 2767 03:03:17.719 --> 03:03:20.799 as one of these not obviously they were not formally 2768 03:03:22.719 --> 03:03:24.680 part of the access to alliance and there wasn't that 2769 03:03:24.760 --> 03:03:27.520 kind of command and control integration, you know that uh, 2770 03:03:28.120 --> 03:03:31.040 you know, such was the case with you know, like Romania, 2771 03:03:31.440 --> 03:03:37.479 but or Italy. But they definitely were on the side 2772 03:03:37.520 --> 03:03:40.360 of the axis where the rubber I'm at the road 2773 03:03:40.440 --> 03:03:44.319 and the key theater of engagement such that you know, 2774 03:03:44.399 --> 03:03:48.479 France was still capable of projecting power to protect its 2775 03:03:48.479 --> 03:03:51.639 its core interests. And yeah, exactly that was in that 2776 03:03:51.719 --> 03:03:58.520 was in Africa. Now what did lebal say and is 2777 03:03:58.639 --> 03:04:03.440 uh response to Hitler? This very much emboldened to Hitler 2778 03:04:04.399 --> 03:04:08.559 with respect to you know, his Mediterranean strategy and his 2779 03:04:08.680 --> 03:04:11.680 ultimate goal of you know, bringing Frank go into the fold. 2780 03:04:11.719 --> 03:04:15.799 After his meeting with the ten, like Laval said, you know, 2781 03:04:17.440 --> 03:04:21.680 Britain the dragged France into an unwanted war then abandoned 2782 03:04:21.680 --> 03:04:25.959 her you know then you know, made war honor for 2783 03:04:26.079 --> 03:04:28.920 smirching her honor and killing her people at the Nurse 2784 03:04:28.920 --> 03:04:33.399 el Kabur a breached catapult. That was July ninety forty, 2785 03:04:33.399 --> 03:04:38.399 that's where the British assaulted destroyed the French fleet, killing 2786 03:04:39.079 --> 03:04:44.079 over twelve hundred people like French servicemen and civilians. And 2787 03:04:44.120 --> 03:04:47.920 then more recently in September as we in the as 2788 03:04:47.920 --> 03:04:50.680 we mentioned in the port of the car in French 2789 03:04:50.719 --> 03:04:56.600 West Africa, and again several hundred not just servicemen but 2790 03:04:56.799 --> 03:05:01.600 French civilians were killed. But friend force is held, you know, 2791 03:05:01.680 --> 03:05:09.440 and Lavelle promised, uh to return, you know, to see this, 2792 03:05:09.680 --> 03:05:13.440 you know, to seek audience with the ten and uh, 2793 03:05:13.479 --> 03:05:15.319 you know, return of the answer in two days time. 2794 03:05:15.959 --> 03:05:26.000 And uh that's uh, that's exactly what he did. October 2795 03:05:26.040 --> 03:05:35.600 twenty third, Hitler believed ninety forty two days subsequent. Hitler 2796 03:05:35.680 --> 03:05:40.440 believed that Franco's willingness would absolutely depend on the tenor 2797 03:05:40.520 --> 03:05:50.520 of uh of of of the approach to it. Uh 2798 03:05:51.680 --> 03:05:56.879 like what is yeah, like, what is meant by that? 2799 03:05:57.120 --> 03:05:57.600 Is that. 2800 03:06:02.200 --> 03:06:04.319 Spain at least had to have they had to believe 2801 03:06:04.360 --> 03:06:08.920 at least that Hitler was advocating for the legitimacy their 2802 03:06:08.920 --> 03:06:12.399 claims in Africa and the Mediterranean and treating Spain like 2803 03:06:12.399 --> 03:06:15.719 something of a great something of a great power, like 2804 03:06:15.760 --> 03:06:18.639 however preposterous that might seem. And I think in that regard, 2805 03:06:18.680 --> 03:06:23.959 like Hitler had Franco's number, and it wasn't just uh, 2806 03:06:24.479 --> 03:06:26.680 it wasn't just for sake of appearances, like the way 2807 03:06:26.959 --> 03:06:30.799 you know it was. It wasn't just like some people speculate, 2808 03:06:31.079 --> 03:06:33.520 and I mean Franco was a limited guy and and 2809 03:06:33.520 --> 03:06:35.959 and kind of a buffoon like a lot of people 2810 03:06:36.159 --> 03:06:38.280 I've read it speculated like, well, you know, this was 2811 03:06:38.319 --> 03:06:42.360 only for domestic you know, consumption, because Franco didn't have 2812 03:06:42.440 --> 03:06:44.639 an actual mandate anyway other than from this kind of 2813 03:06:44.639 --> 03:06:50.079 coterie of officers and you know, and uh and phialangists 2814 03:06:50.159 --> 03:06:51.920 who are who are a minority within the party, I 2815 03:06:51.959 --> 03:06:54.239 might add, you know who kind of agreed to cooperate 2816 03:06:54.600 --> 03:06:57.000 every sensation of hostilities. I don't believe it to be 2817 03:06:57.000 --> 03:07:00.479 true at all. I think, uh, as time went on, 2818 03:07:00.559 --> 03:07:02.399 and as we'll get into and as I mentioned this, 2819 03:07:02.440 --> 03:07:06.319 before we went live, Franco's demands we were deliberately like 2820 03:07:06.360 --> 03:07:08.920 so up tos and so unreasonable that you know, it 2821 03:07:09.000 --> 03:07:11.200 was it was kind of his way out of joining 2822 03:07:11.440 --> 03:07:16.000 the war, but these demands, like you know, Franko's obsession 2823 03:07:16.079 --> 03:07:20.280 with Morocco, you know him, you know, saying you wanted 2824 03:07:20.319 --> 03:07:24.520 like equality of status like in you know, in terms 2825 03:07:24.520 --> 03:07:27.040 of maritime passage and the Mediterranean. Like he meant all 2826 03:07:27.040 --> 03:07:29.200 these things like on their own terms, like over stupid 2827 03:07:29.239 --> 03:07:33.680 that might seem. And he uh, he actually viewed Spain 2828 03:07:33.719 --> 03:07:36.840 as some like serious major power, you know, and again 2829 03:07:36.920 --> 03:07:42.799 like raposterous? Is that? Uh? As that might seem. As 2830 03:07:42.840 --> 03:07:50.120 it happened, Hitler met with UH. Hitler and the UH 2831 03:07:51.159 --> 03:07:56.680 Ribbent troup and the UH the diplomatic contingent was the 2832 03:07:56.719 --> 03:08:00.440 diplomatic contingent respectively, of the Reich and of National Spain 2833 03:08:01.559 --> 03:08:06.520 met UH before Hiller got his audience with the ten 2834 03:08:09.479 --> 03:08:13.559 on October twenty third, ninety forty. It was the h 2835 03:08:13.920 --> 03:08:17.920 in the frontier town of Hindai, Hindi, France. I'm sure 2836 03:08:17.959 --> 03:08:26.959 I'm butchering the pronunciation. Hitler was president, obviously, Franco was president, 2837 03:08:28.040 --> 03:08:31.120 so is von Ribintrov, and so is Toronto. Sooner. Sooner 2838 03:08:31.239 --> 03:08:35.799 was the newly appointed foreign minister who was surrounding Soonior. 2839 03:08:36.319 --> 03:08:42.399 He was Franko's brother in law, but more importantly, he 2840 03:08:42.520 --> 03:08:46.159 was president of the traditional of the quote traditionalist Spanish 2841 03:08:46.239 --> 03:08:49.479 felanx and of the councils of the National Syndicalist Offensive. 2842 03:08:51.719 --> 03:08:55.280 What that was is that was the that was the 2843 03:08:55.319 --> 03:08:59.079 only legal party in Spain, and it was it had 2844 03:08:59.079 --> 03:09:02.040 come about by merging of the Palange and the Integralist 2845 03:09:02.079 --> 03:09:11.200 Catholic Traditionalist Union. Okay, part of the kind of optics 2846 03:09:11.239 --> 03:09:14.360 the Franco regime where they claim to both represent the 2847 03:09:14.479 --> 03:09:18.000 Church and represent the Falanges, which was a fiction if 2848 03:09:18.000 --> 03:09:20.479 anybody knows the history of these Tennessees, and we'll get 2849 03:09:20.520 --> 03:09:25.280 into that next episode. And there was a revolt of 2850 03:09:25.319 --> 03:09:33.200 the Phalange against uh against Franco's dictatorship, and that ultimately 2851 03:09:33.559 --> 03:09:37.079 the kind of the kind of enduring ripples of that 2852 03:09:37.159 --> 03:09:41.399 ultimately led to Snare's dismissal because Snaire actually was a 2853 03:09:41.440 --> 03:09:46.000 dedicated Falangist, you know, and had he not been related 2854 03:09:46.200 --> 03:09:48.719 to the Cuddillo, he would not have found himself in 2855 03:09:48.760 --> 03:09:53.399 this role. There's a cruel irony here too, because the 2856 03:09:53.399 --> 03:09:56.879 Acabam Ribbon shrow Up and surrounding Snare came to quite 2857 03:09:56.959 --> 03:10:02.760 literally hate one another, and they'd had quite a lot 2858 03:10:02.799 --> 03:10:07.879 of contact during the Spanish Civil War and beyond and 2859 03:10:08.000 --> 03:10:10.760 Ribbin Trump was beside himself and soon Era was appointed 2860 03:10:10.799 --> 03:10:18.920 Foreign Minister, and Ribin Trump was uh the anniversary of 2861 03:10:18.959 --> 03:10:21.440 his death, I think it was last year when the 2862 03:10:21.479 --> 03:10:23.920 university was death rolled around. I remember talking on Twitter 2863 03:10:23.959 --> 03:10:27.399 and in some other on some other platforms with people 2864 03:10:28.719 --> 03:10:30.799 they were asking me what my take on Ribbin Troup was. 2865 03:10:31.559 --> 03:10:34.559 There were some incredible diplomatic coups that Ribbon Troff pulled off, 2866 03:10:34.799 --> 03:10:39.479 and he had some remarkable insights in at key junctures. 2867 03:10:40.159 --> 03:10:41.319 But at the end of the day, he was an 2868 03:10:41.360 --> 03:10:50.479 international businessman, okay, in business a diplomats and and uh, 2869 03:10:51.440 --> 03:10:54.600 no matter what, the most prestige posting before he became 2870 03:10:54.600 --> 03:10:57.319 the Foreign Minister was his ambassador of the United Kingdom. 2871 03:10:57.520 --> 03:11:02.840 And no matter who had been in that role, you know, 2872 03:11:02.879 --> 03:11:05.920 he would he wouldn't He wouldn't have made any any headway, okay, 2873 03:11:05.959 --> 03:11:09.479 because you know, for reasons that should be obvious to anybody, 2874 03:11:09.520 --> 03:11:14.200 but that we covered extensively in our earlier series. But 2875 03:11:17.760 --> 03:11:21.040 Raymond Troup was incapable of of of coming to terms 2876 03:11:21.040 --> 03:11:25.079 with people who he developed a relationship characterized a personal 2877 03:11:25.120 --> 03:11:28.319 animus opposite. And this was the case of soon Air 2878 03:11:28.399 --> 03:11:30.120 and like you know, and Like I said, Sooner, not 2879 03:11:30.159 --> 03:11:35.680 only was he Uh a dedicated philangist, he was he 2880 03:11:35.719 --> 03:11:43.600 was he was incredibly pro Axis. The previous September, the 2881 03:11:43.719 --> 03:11:49.760 month prior UH Sooner visited Berlin, he'd sought out Ribin 2882 03:11:49.799 --> 03:11:54.639 Troup at the Foreign Ministry to discuss how Spain could 2883 03:11:54.799 --> 03:11:57.239 enter the war on the Axis side. Like now, mind 2884 03:11:57.280 --> 03:12:00.440 you like, Sooner knew that Franco was dragging his feet. 2885 03:12:01.760 --> 03:12:03.719 He knew what Hitler's demands were, and he knew that 2886 03:12:03.760 --> 03:12:08.719 those demands were sound and strategic as well as political terms. 2887 03:12:09.200 --> 03:12:13.399 He also knew that, you know, part of Franco's strategy, 2888 03:12:13.559 --> 03:12:16.559 it would be the issue demands that could would would 2889 03:12:16.639 --> 03:12:21.079 not reasonably be met either because you know, realistically, you know, 2890 03:12:21.159 --> 03:12:24.399 forces and being weren't there we're you know, and and 2891 03:12:24.399 --> 03:12:32.680 and those that were like that, you know, food stuffs, petroleum, weapons, aircraft, 2892 03:12:32.920 --> 03:12:37.120 you know that which was in being you know, Berlin 2893 03:12:37.159 --> 03:12:40.239 would never part with because it was an unconstable demand. 2894 03:12:40.799 --> 03:12:43.799 But soon they're honestly visited the Foreign Ministry in good 2895 03:12:43.840 --> 03:12:49.280 faith to try and realize terms by which uh, you know, 2896 03:12:50.479 --> 03:12:52.639 Franco would be painted into a corner. In my belief, 2897 03:12:52.760 --> 03:12:56.280 in my opinion, you know such that you know, the uh, 2898 03:12:57.000 --> 03:13:00.879 the Reich would contribute, you know, everything that possibly could 2899 03:13:01.959 --> 03:13:07.280 to facilitate Spain's entry into the war. So I mean 2900 03:13:07.360 --> 03:13:10.200 soon Air and Ribbon Trump wanted the same things and 2901 03:13:10.399 --> 03:13:16.520 uh they uh they but they couldn't they, you know 2902 03:13:16.600 --> 03:13:21.280 that they couldn't overcome this this kind of personal animus 2903 03:13:21.319 --> 03:13:24.559 what uh Ribbon Trump reported and Raybon Troup was something 2904 03:13:24.600 --> 03:13:29.079 of a haughty two ton of uh you know, a 2905 03:13:29.159 --> 03:13:34.360 caricatures sort And again that's another reason I think he 2906 03:13:34.360 --> 03:13:35.879 should not have been in the role that he was. 2907 03:13:35.920 --> 03:13:44.079 But soon There uh said that, you know, Caudillo demands 2908 03:13:44.079 --> 03:13:46.879 you know, all of French, Morocco and Algeria, you know, 2909 03:13:46.959 --> 03:13:50.639 for Laban's wrong. But this could probably be finesse if 2910 03:13:50.799 --> 03:13:55.600 you know he was offered Portugal because geographically speaking, in 2911 03:13:55.680 --> 03:13:59.159 Soonor's words, Portugal has no right to exist quote and 2912 03:13:59.200 --> 03:14:01.959 this apparently raged Ribbon Throp. You know, like, who the 2913 03:14:02.000 --> 03:14:04.200 hell is this Spandard think he is? You know, Spain 2914 03:14:04.280 --> 03:14:07.120 is a is a ship country. It's you know, he's 2915 03:14:07.360 --> 03:14:09.920 talking like he's you know, he's talking to me like 2916 03:14:09.920 --> 03:14:13.719 we're peers. And you can almost see like if you 2917 03:14:13.760 --> 03:14:17.319 read about these personages like you almost you almost like 2918 03:14:17.440 --> 03:14:19.920 feel this like outraged ribbon trop But I mean again, 2919 03:14:19.959 --> 03:14:21.840 if you're a diplomat, you've got to stay cool no 2920 03:14:21.879 --> 03:14:26.600 matter what. But again, part of the tragedy of this 2921 03:14:26.760 --> 03:14:28.639 is that a man like soon Air Well, I think 2922 03:14:28.680 --> 03:14:30.200 it was a real hero in a lot of ways. 2923 03:14:30.719 --> 03:14:34.920 But you know this, uh, this kind of a you know, 2924 03:14:34.959 --> 03:14:38.360 this this kind of self important, pompous Latin guy, and uh, 2925 03:14:38.639 --> 03:14:41.319 this kind of you know, supremacist to time type like 2926 03:14:41.360 --> 03:14:43.319 people like that are gonna mix like oil and water, 2927 03:14:43.399 --> 03:14:49.399 you know. And you can just see just kind of 2928 03:14:49.399 --> 03:14:51.719 by like like the words jump off the page, and 2929 03:14:51.879 --> 03:14:55.040 when when you read of this meeting, how you know, 2930 03:14:55.200 --> 03:15:01.879 just like what a disaster it must must must have been. Additionally, 2931 03:15:01.879 --> 03:15:05.159 Srono wanted to he wanted he want to guarantees of 2932 03:15:05.639 --> 03:15:10.280 military and economic support, you know, uh immediately to like 2933 03:15:10.319 --> 03:15:14.360 you know, this wasn't he said he wanted to go 2934 03:15:14.399 --> 03:15:17.479 back to Madrid, you know, with with the concrete offer 2935 03:15:17.600 --> 03:15:23.159 of what you know, Hitler was willing to provide, you know, 2936 03:15:23.280 --> 03:15:25.680 kind of like down to the letter, you know, and uh, 2937 03:15:25.840 --> 03:15:29.280 this is not that's not the way that that's not 2938 03:15:29.399 --> 03:15:31.680 that's not the way diplomacy has done either you know 2939 03:15:32.000 --> 03:15:39.520 it's and uh this would be the cost again of 2940 03:15:38.360 --> 03:15:44.479 uh of you know, joining the war and specifically you know, 2941 03:15:44.840 --> 03:15:55.280 immediately planning for an operation. This trilter apparently Ymntroft hit 2942 03:15:55.319 --> 03:15:59.639 the roof and he said that he'd approached the Fear 2943 03:15:59.760 --> 03:16:06.399 and talk about maybe letting uh Spain maintained territorial rights 2944 03:16:06.440 --> 03:16:10.600 to uh one of the Canary Islands, but that's it, 2945 03:16:11.000 --> 03:16:13.280 you know. He said that Spain's never going to have 2946 03:16:13.360 --> 03:16:15.920 Morocco that you know, France is an essential ally and 2947 03:16:15.959 --> 03:16:22.840 you're not. You know, this is paraphrase, you know, and uh, finally, 2948 03:16:22.920 --> 03:16:26.200 Riven trop said that you know the aid you're gonna 2949 03:16:26.239 --> 03:16:30.159 get is you know, you're you're gonna become a dedicated 2950 03:16:30.440 --> 03:16:33.879 you know, destination from German manufacturers. You know, we're gonna 2951 03:16:33.879 --> 03:16:36.639 put your people to work, you know, as we see fit, 2952 03:16:36.799 --> 03:16:39.799 you know, to sustain in the war economy. But you know, 2953 03:16:40.399 --> 03:16:43.120 basically you're a coolie, you know, go back. He basically 2954 03:16:43.159 --> 03:16:47.120 told him, like, go get his fucking shinebos and you 2955 03:16:47.159 --> 03:16:50.639 know the uh he literally insulted him by you know, 2956 03:16:50.680 --> 03:16:53.079 not just portraying Spain as you know, like a future 2957 03:16:53.120 --> 03:16:55.840 satellite state, but as like a second rate one at 2958 03:16:55.840 --> 03:17:02.920 that as uh this came is apparently a great shock 2959 03:17:03.000 --> 03:17:06.399 to soon error because it uh. I mean again, like 2960 03:17:06.440 --> 03:17:10.319 these guys weren't rob and Troup had done business in 2961 03:17:10.360 --> 03:17:14.920 America and like actually up until you know, the the 2962 03:17:15.000 --> 03:17:18.319 evil World War one and uh and then subsequent he'd 2963 03:17:18.360 --> 03:17:22.799 spent a lot of time in Canada, So I mean 2964 03:17:22.799 --> 03:17:26.280 he was worldly, but uh like not neither of these 2965 03:17:26.319 --> 03:17:30.840 men should have been negotiating anything of uh of of 2966 03:17:30.840 --> 03:17:32.959 of of the nature that they were charged with, you know, 2967 03:17:33.079 --> 03:17:40.680 like I Sigafreed Cash, I Uh, SIGRed Cash wasn't a diplomat, 2968 03:17:40.760 --> 03:17:45.200 but he he was slated to be the gall lighter 2969 03:17:45.280 --> 03:17:49.600 of the Moscow UH Commissariat, you know, had it come 2970 03:17:49.639 --> 03:17:56.600 to fruition, and he uh he was. He was the 2971 03:17:56.600 --> 03:18:01.879 military liaison uh to uh the independent State of Croatia. 2972 03:18:01.879 --> 03:18:03.440 I mean, I just think he's an interesting guy. But 2973 03:18:03.559 --> 03:18:07.879 I in in counterfactual terms, I was thinking about that, 2974 03:18:07.959 --> 03:18:11.559 like Sigarey Cash, like should have been the man negotiating 2975 03:18:11.760 --> 03:18:17.159 with Spain and uh it should have been a man 2976 03:18:17.239 --> 03:18:22.120 from the traditional uh, from the traditional aristocracy of the 2977 03:18:22.200 --> 03:18:27.399 church or the church like negotiating with with Cash. You know. 2978 03:18:27.440 --> 03:18:30.639 Again it's a. It's a it's it's a splendid example 2979 03:18:30.639 --> 03:18:33.399 of two men who basically agree on everything in terms 2980 03:18:33.399 --> 03:18:36.040 of like ideology and politics, who you know, could not 2981 03:18:36.280 --> 03:18:41.079 agree on like what day it was? It uh, And 2982 03:18:41.120 --> 03:18:45.879 it becomes Franco's private correspondence to soon error, you know, 2983 03:18:46.360 --> 03:18:50.600 and his telegrams to him, but specifically like his private letters. 2984 03:18:51.399 --> 03:18:54.680 So I mean, you know that these were intendingly for 2985 03:18:54.840 --> 03:19:00.159 Sator's eyes. He was uh, he was a Frank was 2986 03:19:00.200 --> 03:19:03.079 a fusively praising Hitler as a wise man, you know 2987 03:19:03.079 --> 03:19:05.639 and like a great man. And you know he was 2988 03:19:05.680 --> 03:19:08.479 dismissing Ribbon trow up as you know Ri Ribond Trump 2989 03:19:08.600 --> 03:19:11.879 is you know, he's a fool. He he's uh, he 2990 03:19:11.879 --> 03:19:14.159 heels to appreciate you know, what we can offer the 2991 03:19:14.239 --> 03:19:17.360 axis and you know these kinds of things, you know. 2992 03:19:17.399 --> 03:19:20.159 So again it's and if it's some like go to 2993 03:19:20.200 --> 03:19:22.799 show you how essential to I mean, if you're if 2994 03:19:22.799 --> 03:19:24.879 you're ahead of state, particularly if you're a world ord 2995 03:19:24.879 --> 03:19:28.040 as Hitler was by this point, you've got to be insulated. 2996 03:19:28.879 --> 03:19:31.959 I mean not just for you know, reasons of literal 2997 03:19:31.959 --> 03:19:36.319 physical security, but you know, because every anybody and everybody 2998 03:19:36.399 --> 03:19:37.879 is going to be you know, trying to sway your 2999 03:19:37.920 --> 03:19:40.159 opinion and make demands on you and things. I mean, 3000 03:19:40.200 --> 03:19:43.479 you just you know, you basically have to communicate through liaison. 3001 03:19:43.520 --> 03:19:46.040 But it goes to show you, like how how important 3002 03:19:46.040 --> 03:19:48.079 it is that the man in that role or in 3003 03:19:48.120 --> 03:19:53.559 those roles you know, in in discreete capacities, you know, 3004 03:19:53.680 --> 03:19:57.760 really really have to you know, be be able to 3005 03:19:57.799 --> 03:19:59.840 check their ego at the door. You know, if there's 3006 03:20:00.000 --> 03:20:02.719 there's no reason why like this, this could not have 3007 03:20:03.479 --> 03:20:10.479 developed into a real you know, a real strategic uh 3008 03:20:10.680 --> 03:20:14.879 you know, alliance, you know, in operational terms, I mean 3009 03:20:15.399 --> 03:20:24.319 uh he uh, even after when a protege as soon 3010 03:20:24.360 --> 03:20:34.159 are a guy named Pedro Gamero del Castill in nineteen 3011 03:20:34.200 --> 03:20:36.840 forty one January nineteen forty one, he reached out to 3012 03:20:37.200 --> 03:20:40.319 the press secretary of the German embassy in Spain, Hans Lasar, 3013 03:20:42.399 --> 03:20:45.760 and he he begged him basically, he's like, look, you know, 3014 03:20:47.959 --> 03:20:52.479 tell Berlin that a Serrano soonnor government in other words, 3015 03:20:52.520 --> 03:20:56.319 like Franco could be sidelined or killed. You know, a 3016 03:20:56.360 --> 03:20:59.840 Serrano sonir government, you know, it was soon are at 3017 03:20:59.879 --> 03:21:02.280 the helm and live with the Cardillo would commit absolutely 3018 03:21:02.360 --> 03:21:08.239 the access powers, you know, and This was incredibly risky, 3019 03:21:08.559 --> 03:21:12.200 you know that he was that he was talking about 3020 03:21:12.200 --> 03:21:16.399 these things in a basically above board capacity with a 3021 03:21:16.479 --> 03:21:19.680 German diplomatic representative. But I mean it goes to show 3022 03:21:19.719 --> 03:21:21.639 you Spain was a house divided. And it goes to 3023 03:21:21.680 --> 03:21:24.760 show you too how you know that the true Falange 3024 03:21:24.879 --> 03:21:27.520 like pro access element in Spain, like we're holding out 3025 03:21:27.600 --> 03:21:32.680 hope still that you know, Spain would join the access 3026 03:21:32.760 --> 03:21:36.920 as a you know, as a as a full partner. 3027 03:21:40.000 --> 03:21:47.040 It Uh, it's unclear whether Wizarre ever reached Hitler or 3028 03:21:47.079 --> 03:21:50.479 reached like the right Chancery and if he did like 3029 03:21:50.520 --> 03:21:56.319 what he said when it was said to Hitler when 3030 03:21:56.360 --> 03:22:06.559 it was like not the not by not by Castillo bout, 3031 03:22:06.639 --> 03:22:12.079 Hitler said, Uh. To Walter Hewle later on was uh, 3032 03:22:12.399 --> 03:22:15.559 he said that you know, soon air and not you know, 3033 03:22:16.719 --> 03:22:21.399 trying harder and doing whatever he could dissuay the Cordillo 3034 03:22:21.719 --> 03:22:24.760 was quote the great bigger of the new Spain and uh, 3035 03:22:26.120 --> 03:22:28.520 you know Hitler, the man always who always took the 3036 03:22:28.600 --> 03:22:32.799 long view. Whatever else he canna say about him, you know, 3037 03:22:32.879 --> 03:22:37.680 he realized more than anybody that you know, Spain's fortunes 3038 03:22:37.719 --> 03:22:43.719 were inextricably tethered to Germany's and if the axis went down, 3039 03:22:44.639 --> 03:22:46.600 that that was the end of Spain. You know, it 3040 03:22:46.879 --> 03:22:49.760 didn't matter that Franco was able to create a little 3041 03:22:49.840 --> 03:22:56.239 like you know, Garrison Uh uh, you know Disneyland, like 3042 03:22:56.360 --> 03:23:00.760 fascist Disneyland for thirty years subsequent that, you know, his 3043 03:23:00.879 --> 03:23:03.319 lasting legacy, that that of Frankoin, I mean is amounts 3044 03:23:03.360 --> 03:23:14.159 to exactly zero. Soon There uh and uh Castile proposed 3045 03:23:14.200 --> 03:23:18.600 they were the ones who proposed the Blue Division, you know, 3046 03:23:18.680 --> 03:23:24.440 after the honest of hostilities with the Soviet Union on 3047 03:23:24.600 --> 03:23:28.879 June twenty second, ninety forty one. And uh, you know 3048 03:23:28.920 --> 03:23:33.879 it's clear that uh, it's it's clear. Soon There realized 3049 03:23:33.879 --> 03:23:36.799 the opportunity that he'd missed or or or was cossing 3050 03:23:36.879 --> 03:23:45.639 his own failure. Two days after Barbarossa in June twenty there, 3051 03:23:45.760 --> 03:23:49.000 twenty four. I've seen it cited, as I've seen both 3052 03:23:49.040 --> 03:23:53.120 citations of the date. He Uh, he delivered a famous 3053 03:23:53.200 --> 03:23:59.440 uh kind of stump speech, uh, from the balcony of 3054 03:23:59.479 --> 03:24:05.520 what had been for largest party headquarters, called Russia is 3055 03:24:05.600 --> 03:24:09.440 capabal forgive me portuing Spanish, I don't speak Spanish at all, 3056 03:24:09.760 --> 03:24:16.040 but translates as Russia is guilty and it's essentially you know, uh, 3057 03:24:16.120 --> 03:24:19.559 bellicos epologia for you know, why why why Spain needs 3058 03:24:19.600 --> 03:24:21.680 to join you know, the war effort, where the flange 3059 03:24:21.719 --> 03:24:23.280 need to join the war effort, you know, like all 3060 03:24:23.360 --> 03:24:29.120 all true patriots need to slay that you deal Bolshevic beast, 3061 03:24:29.280 --> 03:24:31.760 you know. So he was, uh, he was. He was 3062 03:24:31.840 --> 03:24:36.559 like like many people, you know, like many great men. 3063 03:24:36.719 --> 03:24:39.239 You know, he was complicated. And again that's part of 3064 03:24:39.280 --> 03:24:43.760 the tragedy is that Serrano was basically a heroic type 3065 03:24:44.920 --> 03:24:47.600 and a great patriot, and you know, kind of circumstances 3066 03:24:47.600 --> 03:24:52.719 intervened to uh prevent him from realizing you know, what 3067 03:24:54.079 --> 03:24:56.559 he wanted to do. H accomplished for the sake of 3068 03:24:56.600 --> 03:25:01.280 Spain and you know, the national Socialist cause and everything else. 3069 03:25:03.600 --> 03:25:07.079 But back to forgive that, tangent I had to kind 3070 03:25:07.079 --> 03:25:10.559 of flesh out who soon there was, to make clear 3071 03:25:10.719 --> 03:25:13.559 like what the stakes were of the of the summit 3072 03:25:14.120 --> 03:25:18.680 between Hitler and Franco, but also you know, to kind 3073 03:25:18.680 --> 03:25:22.680 of understand, you know, how the personage is directly engaged, 3074 03:25:22.799 --> 03:25:31.280 you know, determine the outcome of this negotiation. The basic 3075 03:25:31.360 --> 03:25:38.079 object was to resolve you know, outstanding disagreements uh over 3076 03:25:38.120 --> 03:25:40.879 the over over conditions for Spain to join the Access 3077 03:25:40.920 --> 03:25:46.360 Powers in their war against Hi. 3078 03:25:49.680 --> 03:25:56.239 Okay, Jimmy a favor you cut out. You cut out 3079 03:25:56.319 --> 03:26:00.559 there when you when you first started, you were going 3080 03:26:00.600 --> 03:26:03.360 to say right now, you cut out like like five 3081 03:26:03.399 --> 03:26:05.280 seconds ago. Can you can you restart that? 3082 03:26:06.000 --> 03:26:09.440 Yeah? Yeah, No, it's the UH to bring it back 3083 03:26:09.479 --> 03:26:14.719 to the summit between you know, Hitler and Franco at 3084 03:26:14.760 --> 03:26:20.239 the object of that meeting it was to resolve, you know, 3085 03:26:20.280 --> 03:26:24.079 the outstanding disagreements over over what conditions had to be 3086 03:26:24.159 --> 03:26:27.479 met for Spain to join the Axis Powers in the 3087 03:26:27.520 --> 03:26:31.520 war against the British Empire. Okay, because obviously, you know, 3088 03:26:32.120 --> 03:26:37.760 this is October nineteen forty, the German Reich in the 3089 03:26:37.760 --> 03:26:42.719 Soviet Union or not yet at war. Okay, France has 3090 03:26:42.760 --> 03:26:46.959 been soundly defeated. The British were defeated at you know two. 3091 03:26:47.040 --> 03:26:49.719 I mean, but you know, on to the war at 3092 03:26:49.719 --> 03:26:55.239 all costs crusade. You know, they're refusing to negotiate, and uh, 3093 03:26:56.079 --> 03:26:58.559 Hitler doesn't want to go through a sea lion. I 3094 03:26:58.600 --> 03:27:01.239 think Sea Lion was always just fertig ruse. But that's 3095 03:27:01.280 --> 03:27:06.520 another question. But the nail in the coffin of the 3096 03:27:06.520 --> 03:27:09.879 British Empire, you know, would be the seeear of Gibraltar. 3097 03:27:10.079 --> 03:27:12.079 You know, the Royal Navy would then be shut out 3098 03:27:12.079 --> 03:27:19.319 of the Mediterranean. They'd lose Africa, you know, they'd they'd 3099 03:27:19.360 --> 03:27:23.520 be they they'd be they'd be a garrison, uh state 3100 03:27:24.520 --> 03:27:28.920 on their home islands, you know, and the U boat 3101 03:27:28.920 --> 03:27:35.879 fleet could do the rest. Really Okay, the meeting endured 3102 03:27:36.040 --> 03:27:43.000 for seven hours. Uh. The Spanish wouldn't waiver, and there rather, 3103 03:27:43.639 --> 03:27:50.000 Franco wouldn't waiver and uh demands that Hitler described as extortionate. 3104 03:27:51.000 --> 03:27:55.239 His demands were. Franco's demands were the handing over of 3105 03:27:55.280 --> 03:28:00.319 Gibraltar to Spain once the British were defeated. Uh this, 3106 03:28:00.559 --> 03:28:03.079 you know, the seating of French Morocco and part of 3107 03:28:03.079 --> 03:28:09.440 French Algeria to Spain. The attachment of French Cameroon to 3108 03:28:09.520 --> 03:28:12.799 the Spanish colony of Guinea. So basically, you know, French 3109 03:28:12.799 --> 03:28:22.280 Africa becomes Spanish Afriga Okay, and finally German supplies of food, petrol, 3110 03:28:22.680 --> 03:28:27.239 arms and ammunition uh as needed, you know, to relieve 3111 03:28:27.239 --> 03:28:31.520 the critical economic and military situation to your point, faced 3112 03:28:31.559 --> 03:28:36.959 by Spain after the Civil War. And you know, and 3113 03:28:37.079 --> 03:28:42.079 subsequently as needed, you know, for long term development. Now, 3114 03:28:45.440 --> 03:28:49.479 Hitler couldn't disturb relations with with with France, Okay. I mean, 3115 03:28:49.520 --> 03:28:53.280 as we just talked about, that was the key that 3116 03:28:53.360 --> 03:28:58.760 was really the key to you know, victory in the West. Okay, 3117 03:29:00.200 --> 03:29:03.959 the key that the key to n SIG was the 3118 03:29:03.959 --> 03:29:09.760 defeat of the Soviet Union. But you know, the Barbarossa 3119 03:29:09.840 --> 03:29:14.360 hasn't happened yet, and ideally, you know, if the war 3120 03:29:14.399 --> 03:29:17.000 in the West can be won, uh first, I mean 3121 03:29:17.000 --> 03:29:21.280 that's obviously ideal, even if this was always a secondary 3122 03:29:21.319 --> 03:29:24.479 theater and you know, a war that the Germans did 3123 03:29:24.520 --> 03:29:28.680 not want to fight. These are the UK and you know, 3124 03:29:29.680 --> 03:29:34.760 the Mediterranean and Northern Africa. But the strategic landscape is 3125 03:29:34.760 --> 03:29:42.200 what it is, Okay, something that's important that doesn't nullify uh, 3126 03:29:42.479 --> 03:29:46.440 you know RHS Stofle's claim, and I mean Hitler's notion, 3127 03:29:47.799 --> 03:29:50.520 I mean the notion of Hitler himself that you know, 3128 03:29:50.600 --> 03:29:54.840 the like final like final victory is conquering is is 3129 03:29:54.840 --> 03:29:58.959 when Moscow falls. Okay, But I just wanted to reiterate 3130 03:29:59.040 --> 03:30:09.000 that for Claire. But uh, the only way that this uh, 3131 03:30:09.399 --> 03:30:14.280 the only way that this uh that this alliance, uh 3132 03:30:14.399 --> 03:30:18.280 that this Mediterranean alliance can work, is uh like like 3133 03:30:18.360 --> 03:30:23.520 Frances the Lynchkin. Okay, for reasons where we discussed Franco 3134 03:30:23.600 --> 03:30:26.479 is making that impossible for you know, for for France 3135 03:30:26.520 --> 03:30:29.479 to come to terms based on what he is demanding. 3136 03:30:33.239 --> 03:30:35.879 And Hillar was beside himself. But also he just didn't 3137 03:30:36.559 --> 03:30:40.399 he he didn't understand the abject uh you know, kind 3138 03:30:40.440 --> 03:30:46.879 of stubbornness. I mean he he view it's never deliver, 3139 03:30:48.079 --> 03:30:51.520 really sabotage the proceedings, and I believe that's true. Uh 3140 03:30:52.040 --> 03:30:54.319 said in Mussolini that he would rather have three or 3141 03:30:54.319 --> 03:30:57.360 four teeth extracted than go through that again, that being 3142 03:30:57.440 --> 03:31:03.959 negotiation or attempted negotiation with Franco soon Air, who was 3143 03:31:04.000 --> 03:31:08.559 again he was uh not habituated to being a diplomat 3144 03:31:08.920 --> 03:31:12.319 and uh he was apparently something of a boisterous, you know, 3145 03:31:12.360 --> 03:31:15.600 an impassionate person and a military man as as well 3146 03:31:15.639 --> 03:31:22.479 as uh, you know, a revolutionary type. He uh he 3147 03:31:22.559 --> 03:31:27.040 continually interrupted and in a way that apparently Hitler viewed 3148 03:31:27.040 --> 03:31:30.000 as totally tactless and stiff like that meane Hitler very 3149 03:31:30.040 --> 03:31:34.319 angry as a kind of as a kind of would 3150 03:31:34.360 --> 03:31:37.479 any sort of like old world Habsburg German. But Hitler 3151 03:31:37.639 --> 03:31:42.600 especially it was. You know, it's basically like, look, if 3152 03:31:42.600 --> 03:31:45.120 you're a definitely representative, even if you're a foreign minister, 3153 03:31:46.000 --> 03:31:48.799 you know when heads a state or talking, you don't 3154 03:31:48.799 --> 03:31:51.680 see anything, you know, I mean so it's just every 3155 03:31:51.879 --> 03:31:58.000 every conceivable sort of aspect of this of this affair 3156 03:31:58.360 --> 03:32:01.079 just came uh you know, a yasco you know, a 3157 03:32:01.319 --> 03:32:09.920 a literal comedy of errors. But uh, Hitler kept at 3158 03:32:09.959 --> 03:32:15.200 it even uh even and even even through you know, 3159 03:32:15.239 --> 03:32:23.440 when dinner was served and even afterwards, and uh it 3160 03:32:23.680 --> 03:32:26.360 uh you know it it came to nothing. And that was. 3161 03:32:26.360 --> 03:32:29.920 That was the last summit. There was the last summer 3162 03:32:29.920 --> 03:32:32.520 between Franco and UH and the fere and really like 3163 03:32:32.520 --> 03:32:37.280 any any official representatives of of of their respective office, 3164 03:32:37.879 --> 03:32:42.399 you know, it's the the Blue Division deployed, you know, 3165 03:32:44.520 --> 03:32:48.399 to the Eastern Front. You know, they fought valiantly, particularly 3166 03:32:48.399 --> 03:32:53.479 at Leningrad. But I mean that, uh, that was that. 3167 03:32:55.040 --> 03:32:58.239 You know, there was no Franco is no nearer uh 3168 03:32:58.719 --> 03:33:03.239 you know, joining the axis than he had been at 3169 03:33:04.399 --> 03:33:09.920 you know prior to the meeting soon Air. You know, 3170 03:33:09.959 --> 03:33:15.280 if anything, he probably sabotaged the proceedings in some small 3171 03:33:15.319 --> 03:33:19.280 way or possibly even a major way by his you know, 3172 03:33:19.360 --> 03:33:24.520 kind of uncouth conduct, however well intentioned it might have been, 3173 03:33:28.000 --> 03:33:32.799 you know, and it was Uh. Hitler went on uh 3174 03:33:33.559 --> 03:33:44.520 to meet Patent on the twenty fourth October. He readed 3175 03:33:44.600 --> 03:33:52.000 pretend as the victory of Verdune, you know, saluted him, 3176 03:33:53.040 --> 03:33:56.159 you know again, like treating him like, you know, with 3177 03:33:56.319 --> 03:33:57.879 all not just with all the honors do a field 3178 03:33:57.920 --> 03:34:01.000 marshal a little bit, you know, as also as the 3179 03:34:01.000 --> 03:34:07.559 president of France, you know it uh, you know, but 3180 03:34:07.600 --> 03:34:09.399 he had nothing he had you know, he had nothing 3181 03:34:09.399 --> 03:34:13.000 to offer, you know. In the French, the patience perspective was, 3182 03:34:13.040 --> 03:34:15.920 you know, we're already at war with the UK, Like 3183 03:34:15.920 --> 03:34:21.600 what more do you want from us? You know, And 3184 03:34:21.639 --> 03:34:23.760 I mean, for the record, you know that continued throughout 3185 03:34:23.799 --> 03:34:25.719 the war. You know, I don't need to remind people, 3186 03:34:26.079 --> 03:34:31.840 you know who another history that the final defenders of 3187 03:34:31.840 --> 03:34:35.239 of uh, the CHS Thug and the fear of Bunker 3188 03:34:35.319 --> 03:34:37.520 were uh, you know, the French off and SS you know, 3189 03:34:37.719 --> 03:34:44.959 Charlot Meine. You know, but it was it was a 3190 03:34:46.040 --> 03:34:48.799 you know, he just reiterated, you know containing you know, 3191 03:34:48.920 --> 03:34:52.200 it's the France can only afford the role of non 3192 03:34:52.239 --> 03:34:55.639 belligerent and official capacities, you know, over the time being, 3193 03:34:55.719 --> 03:34:59.600 you know, otherwise otherwise you know, and defend as you 3194 03:34:59.600 --> 03:35:02.120 know what we can in Africa, you know, from the 3195 03:35:02.159 --> 03:35:05.000 common enemy. But you know, beyond that, there's there's there's 3196 03:35:05.000 --> 03:35:08.079 nothing to be done unless you know, Spain's willing to 3197 03:35:08.120 --> 03:35:09.200 come to terms. 3198 03:35:09.719 --> 03:35:12.040 And uh, that. 3199 03:35:14.159 --> 03:35:17.479 Was that kind of the final kind of the final 3200 03:35:17.600 --> 03:35:24.479 chapter was in the final they're the nailing the coffin. Rather. 3201 03:35:26.440 --> 03:35:31.040 A month subsequent, November twenty eighth, nineteen forty, Ribbon Troup's 3202 03:35:31.040 --> 03:35:36.440 ambassador in Berlin, the foreign the German ambassador to to Madrid, 3203 03:35:36.520 --> 03:35:45.879 to Spain in Madrid Eperlin, he relayed that Frank was 3204 03:35:45.920 --> 03:35:51.399 now willing to proceed with East of Pursy preparations for 3205 03:35:51.520 --> 03:35:54.840 Spain's proposed entry into the war if you know Hitler 3206 03:35:54.920 --> 03:35:57.360 was willing to you know, if Hitler was willing to 3207 03:35:57.399 --> 03:35:59.159 now come to terms, you know, in some way that 3208 03:35:59.520 --> 03:36:05.879 you know, both men could live with. Hitler took this 3209 03:36:05.959 --> 03:36:10.680 to mean that this meant that Franco was willing to 3210 03:36:10.760 --> 03:36:16.000 enter the war immediately, you know, pending uh, the satisfaction 3211 03:36:16.040 --> 03:36:21.000 and conditions precedent. On December fourth, he sent Canarist to 3212 03:36:21.120 --> 03:36:33.319 Franco with a personal letter proposing that German troops formally 3213 03:36:33.440 --> 03:36:39.239 enter Spain and you know, prepare uh to assault Gibraltar, 3214 03:36:43.399 --> 03:36:46.479 which six was six hundred miles from the frontier. Okay, 3215 03:36:46.520 --> 03:36:49.440 so we're talking. You're talking about a real deployment across 3216 03:36:51.120 --> 03:36:54.920 across you know, the Spanish heartland, which is no small thing. 3217 03:36:54.959 --> 03:37:00.159 But again it I mean, considering, considering, you know, the 3218 03:37:00.200 --> 03:37:03.239 course of negotiations, this would not this was not an 3219 03:37:03.280 --> 03:37:09.079 outlandish request. And let's forget that. You know, German forces 3220 03:37:09.079 --> 03:37:12.440 spent three years fighting, you know, on Spanish soil to 3221 03:37:12.920 --> 03:37:17.159 you know, guarantee the existence of Franco and his people, 3222 03:37:17.479 --> 03:37:24.319 you know, and subsequently the government that they now you know, 3223 03:37:24.360 --> 03:37:30.040 they now they now enjoyed in Madrid. So this, uh, this, 3224 03:37:30.040 --> 03:37:34.440 this was perfectly well placed in customary you know terms 3225 03:37:34.440 --> 03:37:36.440 as well as you know, the commonly accepted sort of 3226 03:37:38.280 --> 03:37:47.440 rights and privileges of of allies. You know. Franco afforded 3227 03:37:47.520 --> 03:37:51.360 Canarius along audience on December seventh, nineteen forty as an 3228 03:37:51.360 --> 03:37:56.079 auspicious day. Auspicious day, you know, one year prior to 3229 03:37:56.479 --> 03:38:04.159 Harbor Pearl Harbor exactly. Franco said to Canaris that for 3230 03:38:04.280 --> 03:38:08.120 economic reasons relating to you know, the terrible cost of 3231 03:38:08.239 --> 03:38:14.200 the Civil War. Spain could not be ready to assault 3232 03:38:14.200 --> 03:38:17.479 the UK by January tenth. Spain could only and Spain 3233 03:38:17.479 --> 03:38:20.280 could only join the war. Furthermore, if Britain was on 3234 03:38:20.319 --> 03:38:23.280 the on the brink of collapse, you know, any kind 3235 03:38:23.319 --> 03:38:26.959 of attrition contest, you know, Spain just could not commit 3236 03:38:27.040 --> 03:38:32.239 to that, which again was just you know, uh, it 3237 03:38:32.280 --> 03:38:34.760 was it was. It was, it was, it was, It 3238 03:38:34.840 --> 03:38:38.159 was just. It was just. Frank was favorite method once 3239 03:38:38.200 --> 03:38:42.440 again of finding a way to to you know, to 3240 03:38:42.559 --> 03:38:48.200 not to not commit to the alliance while uh wrong 3241 03:38:48.239 --> 03:38:52.520 footing his enemy and in some in some way how 3242 03:38:52.559 --> 03:39:02.440 we're transparent, that might have been it. Uh. Hitler's rebuttal 3243 03:39:02.799 --> 03:39:07.360 response uh to the Canaris meeting was, uh, you know, 3244 03:39:07.559 --> 03:39:14.959 just again you know too, to reiterate, uh, you know, 3245 03:39:15.120 --> 03:39:22.319 the that Gibraltar was essential that you know, unless uh, 3246 03:39:23.120 --> 03:39:27.159 unless the United Tignam was deprived of its access to 3247 03:39:27.159 --> 03:39:32.840 the Mediterranean, you know it, Uh, it would soon prevail 3248 03:39:32.879 --> 03:39:39.120 in North Africa. Hitler had no illusions about that, and 3249 03:39:39.360 --> 03:39:43.280 ultimately that would be the end of Spain. And you know, 3250 03:39:43.639 --> 03:39:47.079 he reminded him too that without the help of you know, 3251 03:39:47.840 --> 03:39:50.760 himself and Mussolini either would be no nationalist Spain today, 3252 03:39:50.920 --> 03:39:58.000 nor they be any Cardillo, you know, and he said 3253 03:39:58.000 --> 03:40:02.159 that Franco's vacillating, added to dude, was uh not befitting 3254 03:40:04.479 --> 03:40:09.200 a general officer, which seemed to stink deep because uh 3255 03:40:09.440 --> 03:40:15.280 Franco proceeded to angrily denounce not Hitler himself, but he 3256 03:40:15.280 --> 03:40:23.200 gained close. He told Canarious that he never vacillated. Uh 3257 03:40:23.360 --> 03:40:26.079 you know that he he he was always committed to 3258 03:40:26.079 --> 03:40:31.799 the cause. But that you know, Spain has been bled white, 3259 03:40:31.920 --> 03:40:36.079 you know, because the fight against Bolshevism, you know, occurred, 3260 03:40:36.200 --> 03:40:40.360 you know, on their territory first and foremost. And you know, 3261 03:40:40.479 --> 03:40:42.879 how dare you're going to question the sacrifice of Spanish 3262 03:40:42.879 --> 03:40:50.600 manhood and all. But the theory was right and Franco 3263 03:40:50.719 --> 03:40:56.079 was wrong. And I mean it's that simple. I and 3264 03:40:56.159 --> 03:41:00.399 again too, I mean aside from that, I mean, all 3265 03:41:00.559 --> 03:41:02.680 all this which is obvious kind of who's cobol and 3266 03:41:02.719 --> 03:41:11.879 who you know was responsible for the inability of you know, 3267 03:41:11.920 --> 03:41:14.760 any any kind of real concourd to emerge between uh, 3268 03:41:14.920 --> 03:41:20.799 you know, Germany, Italy, uh, Spain and France. It's clear that, 3269 03:41:21.239 --> 03:41:23.920 I mean, Franco was a unless one puts, you know, 3270 03:41:24.440 --> 03:41:31.079 self preservation above all other goods. It's it's obvious that 3271 03:41:31.120 --> 03:41:34.040 Franco was really kind of a pox on on the 3272 03:41:34.079 --> 03:41:41.799 house proverbial house of of of all patriotic forces. Then 3273 03:41:41.920 --> 03:41:48.319 UH so mobilized and engaged against uh, you know, the 3274 03:41:48.360 --> 03:41:55.360 Bolsheviks and UH and their allies in Britain. This the 3275 03:41:55.440 --> 03:41:58.760 situation was a complicated by Mussoli jumping the gun and 3276 03:42:00.079 --> 03:42:03.879 informing Hitler that he intended to assault Greece, which in 3277 03:42:03.920 --> 03:42:07.799 turn obviously would have given the UK a pretext to 3278 03:42:07.840 --> 03:42:12.520 occupy Crete and then you know, to bring UH their 3279 03:42:12.600 --> 03:42:17.479 strategic bombers within striking distance of the Mediterranean theater. I mean, 3280 03:42:17.520 --> 03:42:21.079 there was there was other things too that were rendering 3281 03:42:23.079 --> 03:42:28.600 this the timetable, uh you know, and that we're putting 3282 03:42:28.600 --> 03:42:33.799 pressure on you know, that the strategic timetable for any 3283 03:42:33.840 --> 03:42:37.920 sort of remedial action to be taken with respect to 3284 03:42:37.959 --> 03:42:40.079 Gibraltar or anywhere else the Mediterranean. 3285 03:42:40.280 --> 03:42:45.040 So go ahead was in Hitler really at that point 3286 03:42:45.159 --> 03:42:49.200 had just asked Mussolini to make sure that the Suez 3287 03:42:49.280 --> 03:42:51.040 Canal was secure. 3288 03:42:50.680 --> 03:42:55.040 Right, yeah, And there was an ongoing there was an 3289 03:42:55.079 --> 03:42:58.879 ongoing uh you know, controversy as to you know, to 3290 03:42:59.000 --> 03:43:06.559 what degree the uh, the North African campaign should be 3291 03:43:07.879 --> 03:43:11.399 prioritized and to what degree then you know that this 3292 03:43:11.399 --> 03:43:16.239 this was before uh you know Rammel had uh had 3293 03:43:16.639 --> 03:43:22.000 had you know, struck these great victories out and you 3294 03:43:22.040 --> 03:43:27.840 know in uh in the North African theater. I mean 3295 03:43:27.879 --> 03:43:30.280 initially it was initially the avercorre deployed, you know, to 3296 03:43:30.360 --> 03:43:34.440 relieve you know, the Italians who were you know, failing 3297 03:43:34.440 --> 03:43:38.680 in every conceivable capacity and operational terms, you know, and 3298 03:43:38.719 --> 03:43:43.840 then later when uh, you know wrong. I think it's 3299 03:43:43.840 --> 03:43:49.280 somewhat over overly praised because he's a romantic figure and plus, 3300 03:43:49.319 --> 03:43:51.239 you know, people look at him as a good guy 3301 03:43:51.360 --> 03:43:55.360 because he he he was wrongfully implicated in the July 3302 03:43:55.719 --> 03:43:58.680 twenty plot, but he was nonetheless implicated and you know 3303 03:43:58.959 --> 03:44:02.879 the sad stoppo, you know, forcing to commit suicide. But 3304 03:44:02.959 --> 03:44:05.600 he it was uh, you know, it was it was 3305 03:44:05.680 --> 03:44:11.399 Rommel's you know, uh, you know, Prussian commitment to missionary 3306 03:44:11.399 --> 03:44:14.079 and attactics like Ritt Large, which kind of you know, 3307 03:44:14.559 --> 03:44:16.959 which kind of made North Africa into like a into 3308 03:44:17.000 --> 03:44:20.159 like a you know, a real battle theater because of 3309 03:44:20.200 --> 03:44:26.319 the fact is that he kept succeeding. But yeah, the 3310 03:44:26.319 --> 03:44:32.559 the Uh. That that was basically the Italian armies. That 3311 03:44:32.559 --> 03:44:36.079 that's what that that, that's what their responsibility was, you know, 3312 03:44:36.680 --> 03:44:42.399 vis a vis the UH, the Access Alliance and that UH. 3313 03:44:42.479 --> 03:44:45.079 And yeah, the Italian army in North Africa was problematic. 3314 03:44:45.399 --> 03:44:48.159 I think the Italians fought pretty heroically on the Eastern Front, 3315 03:44:51.239 --> 03:44:56.799 but the UH and in the Balkans there their mountain troops. 3316 03:44:57.079 --> 03:45:03.399 We were real game and real tough. But the the 3317 03:45:03.440 --> 03:45:06.760 Italian forces in Africa were not. They were not good, 3318 03:45:07.280 --> 03:45:09.079 and they were a liability in a lot of ways, 3319 03:45:09.120 --> 03:45:11.559 with some exceptions. I don't I don't want like Italian 3320 03:45:11.559 --> 03:45:13.559 people to get mad or something. You think I'm saying 3321 03:45:13.559 --> 03:45:16.840 something bad about them, I'm not. But the Italian army 3322 03:45:16.840 --> 03:45:17.520 had had. 3323 03:45:17.799 --> 03:45:19.319 You've already pissed off the Spanish. 3324 03:45:19.360 --> 03:45:23.319 So I mean, yeah, I don't wanna I don't know. 3325 03:45:23.600 --> 03:45:25.280 It's said, I don't want a whole form of Latin 3326 03:45:25.319 --> 03:45:30.200 people who are a man at me. But the UH, 3327 03:45:31.280 --> 03:45:39.000 you know, that was that was uh, that was that 3328 03:45:39.120 --> 03:45:42.159 and a lot of this too. I mentioned, Uh. I 3329 03:45:42.239 --> 03:45:43.719 mentioned Walter. 3330 03:45:49.520 --> 03:45:52.600 Right as you said I mentioned and then you cut out. 3331 03:45:52.639 --> 03:45:53.360 So what did you say? 3332 03:45:53.600 --> 03:45:58.559 I said, I mentioned Walter Walter? Hewell, a minute ago. Uh. 3333 03:45:59.319 --> 03:46:02.639 A lot of this testimony comes from hewell, you know, 3334 03:46:02.680 --> 03:46:05.239 and what he what he documented in his diaries and things, 3335 03:46:05.879 --> 03:46:11.719 and hewell was he was a career diplomat, and after 3336 03:46:11.799 --> 03:46:14.399 nineteen thirty three he became chief at the East Asian 3337 03:46:14.440 --> 03:46:17.559 disc of the Foreign Ministry, and then during the war 3338 03:46:18.120 --> 03:46:21.799 he became special liaison between the Foreign Ministry and the FEAR, 3339 03:46:22.319 --> 03:46:25.520 and he and Hitler became quite close. And Hewill was 3340 03:46:25.559 --> 03:46:29.120 an interesting guy, kind of like an unassuming guy, like 3341 03:46:29.239 --> 03:46:31.200 the kind of guy who is a great diplomat. Like 3342 03:46:31.280 --> 03:46:35.920 if if Hewell could have been negotiating with soon ere, 3343 03:46:36.360 --> 03:46:38.200 there would have been a very different outcome, I believe. 3344 03:46:38.280 --> 03:46:44.520 But my point is that uh, hewles Uh, he's a credit. 3345 03:46:44.559 --> 03:46:48.719 He is a credible source on this, and he he 3346 03:46:48.799 --> 03:46:52.239 really had no observing these things in his like private 3347 03:46:52.280 --> 03:46:54.840 diary where he was talking to himself, you know, like 3348 03:46:54.959 --> 03:46:58.159 here there really would be no reason why to finesse 3349 03:46:58.200 --> 03:47:00.959 these things. And frankly too, I mean again, I don't think, 3350 03:47:01.559 --> 03:47:03.520 I don't think. I don't think anybody really looks good 3351 03:47:03.600 --> 03:47:07.360 or reasonable in this MILEU except the Hitler himself, you know, 3352 03:47:07.399 --> 03:47:10.479 Like I'm sure that take makes people mad too. But 3353 03:47:10.520 --> 03:47:15.680 speaking within you know the bound irrationality of uh of 3354 03:47:17.319 --> 03:47:22.920 you know, the strategic planning, you know, based on the 3355 03:47:22.920 --> 03:47:30.719 conditions confronted you know, by all combatant states on the 3356 03:47:30.760 --> 03:47:34.079 acts of side as of October nineteen forty. And you 3357 03:47:34.120 --> 03:47:36.399 know this that this should not had developed the way 3358 03:47:36.399 --> 03:47:40.680 it did. But it goes to show you the human factor, 3359 03:47:41.600 --> 03:47:45.680 you know, and people and there you know, idiosyncrasies and 3360 03:47:45.719 --> 03:47:50.799 personality and and everything else. I mean it is, UH 3361 03:47:51.280 --> 03:47:55.840 is like like like sabotages the best laid planned in 3362 03:47:55.920 --> 03:47:59.399 nations more than any any army could, you know, much 3363 03:47:59.440 --> 03:48:02.760 of the time. And like that's not just some dumb cliche, 3364 03:48:03.159 --> 03:48:07.840 but that's uh, that's the story of UH. This is 3365 03:48:07.840 --> 03:48:11.079 the story of you know, the Cordillo and the Furor, 3366 03:48:11.239 --> 03:48:17.280 and you know the conspicuous absence of Spain and you 3367 03:48:17.319 --> 03:48:19.600 know on the on the battlefields of World War two 3368 03:48:19.680 --> 03:48:24.840 save for the Blue Division later the Blue Legion when 3369 03:48:24.879 --> 03:48:28.079 they were reconstituted, who were very who fought heroically again, 3370 03:48:28.879 --> 03:48:32.559 But you know, that's that's why. And that's all I got. 3371 03:48:32.799 --> 03:48:36.159 Par too good, Let's do plugs and get out of here. 3372 03:48:37.000 --> 03:48:40.639 Yeah, for sure, I realized I haven't been plugging my website. 3373 03:48:40.879 --> 03:48:45.200 I do have a website now. It's number seven h 3374 03:48:45.360 --> 03:48:47.639 M A S seven seven seven dot com, which is 3375 03:48:47.719 --> 03:48:51.159 Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's kind of like 3376 03:48:51.159 --> 03:48:52.920 a one stop not kind I mean, it's a one 3377 03:48:52.959 --> 03:48:57.719 stop place for all my content, okay, And I still 3378 03:48:57.719 --> 03:49:00.520 gotta like tweak some stuff that, like my Twitter feed 3379 03:49:00.600 --> 03:49:03.120 like shows up there in the timely manner, but pretty 3380 03:49:03.159 --> 03:49:05.520 much all like that video stuff I do like here 3381 03:49:05.559 --> 03:49:08.639 with Pete and other things, you know, shows up here, 3382 03:49:08.680 --> 03:49:11.280 like my podcast, you can like access it there, you know, 3383 03:49:11.399 --> 03:49:13.719 just like one off streams I appear on and stuff 3384 03:49:13.760 --> 03:49:17.559 like that, you can find it there. And I'm gonna 3385 03:49:17.559 --> 03:49:19.760 sucks it up and like fix some of the glitches. 3386 03:49:19.799 --> 03:49:21.479 And but I mean you can go here now and 3387 03:49:21.520 --> 03:49:23.879 it's like up and running, okay. But the stuff that 3388 03:49:23.920 --> 03:49:27.719 doesn't work particularly well yet, that's getting worked out. Uh. 3389 03:49:28.959 --> 03:49:34.520 You can still find me on Twitter if you request 3390 03:49:35.280 --> 03:49:37.399 to follow me, I will let you follow me. I 3391 03:49:38.000 --> 03:49:40.239 I just rubber stamp, but as it were, but I've 3392 03:49:40.239 --> 03:49:42.840 got to have my tweets protected because otherwise, like a 3393 03:49:42.840 --> 03:49:45.280 bunch of freaks like Zert rush me and get me banned, 3394 03:49:46.159 --> 03:49:48.239 which just happened like twelve times I'm not just talking 3395 03:49:48.239 --> 03:49:52.479 you shit. You can find me at substack if you 3396 03:49:52.520 --> 03:49:57.440 can find my podcast, it's a real Thomas seven seven 3397 03:49:57.520 --> 03:49:59.920 seven that subseck dot com. And that's pretty much where 3398 03:50:00.079 --> 03:50:01.719 up on. Like a lot of things are happening now. 3399 03:50:01.719 --> 03:50:03.120 I know I've been saying that for a minute, but 3400 03:50:04.360 --> 03:50:06.680 I am a one man operation. Like with my dear 3401 03:50:06.719 --> 03:50:11.280 friend and editor Rake, we're a two man operation. But 3402 03:50:12.200 --> 03:50:15.200 I'm I'm working on the second season of Mind Phaser, 3403 03:50:15.799 --> 03:50:18.719 at which time the first season episodes will all become free. 3404 03:50:19.200 --> 03:50:22.120 But there's a help alot going into that. There's a 3405 03:50:22.120 --> 03:50:24.159 hell blot going into like the video we're shooting and 3406 03:50:24.680 --> 03:50:27.120 I've got a helpot of footage, but I gotta make 3407 03:50:27.159 --> 03:50:30.200 it into something and it's damn time consuming. Just please 3408 03:50:30.239 --> 03:50:32.600 continue to bear with me, like I'm getting shipped together. 3409 03:50:32.719 --> 03:50:34.799 But it's and it will be dope, but it's just 3410 03:50:34.840 --> 03:50:36.879 taking time. That's all I got. 3411 03:50:38.200 --> 03:50:42.360 Well until part five. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Thomas. 3412 03:50:43.719 --> 03:50:44.799 I likewise, man, thank you. 3413 03:50:47.719 --> 03:50:50.879 I want to welcome everyone back to the Peas Show. 3414 03:50:51.879 --> 03:50:54.920 We had a little delay in between episodes because Thomas's 3415 03:50:54.920 --> 03:50:56.000 life is exciting. 3416 03:50:56.440 --> 03:51:00.159 How you doing, Thomas, I'm doing well. Man. Yeah, I 3417 03:51:00.159 --> 03:51:04.680 apologize for that. I want to, Like I was telling 3418 03:51:04.959 --> 03:51:10.319 Pete before we went live, a huge amount of people 3419 03:51:10.840 --> 03:51:14.239 reached out out of genuine concern and that's incredible man, 3420 03:51:14.440 --> 03:51:17.600 you know it's really that. I mean not just because 3421 03:51:17.959 --> 03:51:20.920 that you know makes anybody feel good. You know they 3422 03:51:20.920 --> 03:51:24.559 have friends that love them, But that's the essence of 3423 03:51:24.600 --> 03:51:26.799 the social capital I'm talking about all the time. It 3424 03:51:26.879 --> 03:51:30.399 is like building you know, not just pragmatic networks for 3425 03:51:31.559 --> 03:51:34.399 you know, like political action things, but in day to 3426 03:51:34.479 --> 03:51:37.319 day life, like you know, when crises emerged, you know, 3427 03:51:37.399 --> 03:51:39.799 as they always do it on personal terms because someone's 3428 03:51:39.840 --> 03:51:43.840 being terrorized by the regime. You know, there there's there's 3429 03:51:43.840 --> 03:51:46.319 a network of people that organically like springs into action, 3430 03:51:47.040 --> 03:51:49.120 you know, and that so that that's been that's kind 3431 03:51:49.120 --> 03:51:51.399 of the silver lining, man like if there if there 3432 03:51:51.479 --> 03:51:54.879 was one, because that you know that the structure very 3433 03:51:54.920 --> 03:51:59.719 much kind of like came into focus, you know, owing 3434 03:51:59.799 --> 03:52:04.000 to owing to o into something that I mean, frankly, 3435 03:52:04.040 --> 03:52:06.440 in the broad scheme like was not a big deal. 3436 03:52:06.520 --> 03:52:08.559 But it's when it's going on, it's fucked up and 3437 03:52:08.600 --> 03:52:10.559 you like disappear off the earth if you get arrested 3438 03:52:10.600 --> 03:52:13.079 because they take away all your means of communication. So 3439 03:52:13.600 --> 03:52:15.559 I just I didn't I'm not trying to eat up 3440 03:52:15.600 --> 03:52:17.879 the clock. I just I just wanted this is a 3441 03:52:17.879 --> 03:52:21.239 good opportunity to kind of like address our friends direct. 3442 03:52:21.920 --> 03:52:28.319 But today, I this is this is the last episode 3443 03:52:28.440 --> 03:52:31.959 where I'll approach it and what appears perhaps to be 3444 03:52:32.120 --> 03:52:38.319 kind of a scattershot topical orientation, and we'll get into 3445 03:52:38.680 --> 03:52:41.200 like the nuts and boats, the battlefield situation and how 3446 03:52:41.200 --> 03:52:44.680 it resolved in the next episode. But to understand the 3447 03:52:44.680 --> 03:52:48.639 Spanish War, and frankly too, understand the path that Franco 3448 03:52:49.159 --> 03:52:53.239 struck out as regards to the fear and the third rite, 3449 03:52:53.319 --> 03:52:56.200 as well as you know Spain and it's gewo strategic 3450 03:52:56.239 --> 03:52:59.959 situation generally, you've really you've got to understand how unusual 3451 03:53:00.079 --> 03:53:04.680 the state and as society Spain is. You know, it's 3452 03:53:04.680 --> 03:53:08.639 a complete outlier. And what I mean by that is 3453 03:53:08.680 --> 03:53:13.399 this even you know, I disagree. I take a strong 3454 03:53:13.440 --> 03:53:18.159 exception to people who they're trying to identify, you know, 3455 03:53:18.200 --> 03:53:19.959 and people with people, and then a lot of a 3456 03:53:20.000 --> 03:53:23.479 lot of people who abide kind of Meersheimer's perspective do this. 3457 03:53:23.600 --> 03:53:27.239 And I only reference that because generally I agree with 3458 03:53:27.319 --> 03:53:29.799 those people on certain matters, and this is one of 3459 03:53:29.879 --> 03:53:32.120 those cases where I don't. But you know, they posit 3460 03:53:32.239 --> 03:53:35.120 that there's this kind of school, there's this discreete you know, 3461 03:53:35.239 --> 03:53:39.280 sort of school of political thought, particularly strategic matters, you know, 3462 03:53:39.360 --> 03:53:42.280 of realism, and that you know, there's some there's some 3463 03:53:42.319 --> 03:53:46.959 sort of straight line, basically linear trajectory between these cities, 3464 03:53:47.200 --> 03:53:48.719 you know, all the way through the people at Kings 3465 03:53:48.719 --> 03:53:53.719 of Burnham and this nonsense. However, the first really modern 3466 03:53:53.760 --> 03:53:56.799 political theorist was was Machiavelli. Okay, and there's a reason 3467 03:53:56.799 --> 03:54:01.280 why Machiavelli he identified he had identified and Isabella as 3468 03:54:01.319 --> 03:54:04.719 the first true like you know, are architects of the 3469 03:54:04.719 --> 03:54:07.079 modern state, you know. And then then and this proceeded, 3470 03:54:07.319 --> 03:54:10.159 this proceeded not just with failure, but the thirty years 3471 03:54:10.159 --> 03:54:16.000 were itself by one hundred years. You know. So there's 3472 03:54:16.040 --> 03:54:19.120 there's this lyrid economy of Spain, because Spain, you know, 3473 03:54:19.680 --> 03:54:21.920 in living memory, it's always views either the sick man 3474 03:54:21.959 --> 03:54:25.719 of Europe or this kind of you know, backward state comparatively, 3475 03:54:26.600 --> 03:54:29.440 or the state that's you know, compromised in terms of 3476 03:54:29.440 --> 03:54:34.280 its social sociological architecture, you know, by by reactionary tendencies 3477 03:54:34.719 --> 03:54:37.280 and you know, things that are more characteristic of the 3478 03:54:37.319 --> 03:54:40.239 developing world, you know, than they are uh that, than 3479 03:54:40.280 --> 03:54:42.920 they are Europe, you know, America and North Asia. But 3480 03:54:43.600 --> 03:54:45.760 Spain was a century ahead of the curve and its 3481 03:54:45.799 --> 03:54:51.719 political development, you know, even amidst uh these arguably, you know, 3482 03:54:51.760 --> 03:54:57.840 conditions have impoverished you know, material and social capital. And 3483 03:54:57.879 --> 03:55:01.479 that's a curious question because to a lesser degree and 3484 03:55:01.479 --> 03:55:04.600 in different capacities. You know, Russia was like that too. 3485 03:55:05.120 --> 03:55:11.840 You know, there was this tremendously evolved intellectual uh climate 3486 03:55:12.040 --> 03:55:15.079 in Russia. I mean, and it had horrible outcomes. Okay, 3487 03:55:15.120 --> 03:55:17.799 I mean that's that's why communism and found such fertile ground. 3488 03:55:17.799 --> 03:55:24.479 But you know, again, right, Russia was decades ahead in 3489 03:55:24.600 --> 03:55:27.719 terms of in terms of in terms of the in 3490 03:55:27.760 --> 03:55:30.399 terms of the intellectual paradigms. It was playing with a 3491 03:55:30.920 --> 03:55:34.239 state craft. But in terms of material capital and the 3492 03:55:34.280 --> 03:55:37.760 conditions that allow, you know, for material capital to truly 3493 03:55:37.799 --> 03:55:43.079 flourish and you know, and provide technological development, those things, 3494 03:55:43.680 --> 03:55:50.559 those things were absent. And that also you know, Spain, 3495 03:55:50.840 --> 03:55:53.680 unlike most empires space to say, Spain, the Spanish Empire 3496 03:55:53.680 --> 03:55:59.280 didn't become rich. It probably in it's in the terms 3497 03:55:59.280 --> 03:56:03.159 we understand health and money. This Spain, the Spanish Remora 3498 03:56:03.239 --> 03:56:05.319 zine that was was was the well these empire that 3499 03:56:05.319 --> 03:56:09.040 ever existed. Okay, you know, it spanned his planet. It 3500 03:56:09.120 --> 03:56:12.719 was able to challenge the Royal Navy, you know it 3501 03:56:12.719 --> 03:56:14.159 it was just it was just like it was. It 3502 03:56:14.159 --> 03:56:17.639 was a juggernaut basically. You know, it was just incredibly powerful. 3503 03:56:18.360 --> 03:56:24.000 But it's social art sector didn't really become more complex 3504 03:56:24.079 --> 03:56:27.079 with that. You know, it's it's wild we overstated or 3505 03:56:27.079 --> 03:56:29.239 people to talk about this, you know, the middle class 3506 03:56:29.280 --> 03:56:32.319 like it's this ambassador class, and like it can finesse 3507 03:56:32.760 --> 03:56:38.760 these intrinsic you know, alleged hostilities you know, between a 3508 03:56:38.760 --> 03:56:42.360 master and serf, from between like aristocrat and peasant, or 3509 03:56:42.440 --> 03:56:48.000 between uh you know, proletarian and and and and a 3510 03:56:48.040 --> 03:56:52.440 high bourgeoisie and and that's nonsense. But there is like 3511 03:56:52.959 --> 03:56:55.559 something of a causal nexus there. I think it's more 3512 03:56:55.680 --> 03:56:59.959 just that, you know, as social theological architecture becomes more diversified, 3513 03:57:00.239 --> 03:57:03.360 owing to the increased complexity of economic activity and behavior 3514 03:57:03.559 --> 03:57:06.399 at scale, that there just becomes more and more kinds 3515 03:57:06.399 --> 03:57:10.040 of threads of complex integration and interdependence between institutions and 3516 03:57:10.079 --> 03:57:14.239 people's and that appears from without you know, if you 3517 03:57:14.239 --> 03:57:16.280 want to like turn into an event diagram as this 3518 03:57:16.399 --> 03:57:19.200 kind of middle class you know, being embassed, you know, 3519 03:57:19.200 --> 03:57:21.879 playing in an ambassador role, but regardless of you know, 3520 03:57:22.200 --> 03:57:25.239 the chicken or the egg and how that resolves in 3521 03:57:25.239 --> 03:57:28.840 one's own mind or in real terms. That that didn't 3522 03:57:28.840 --> 03:57:33.479 happen in Spain, Okay, you have this historically divided society 3523 03:57:34.239 --> 03:57:39.280 and they, you know, finally when the nineteenth century arrived. 3524 03:57:39.600 --> 03:57:43.040 You know, the Spanish didn't Spain had a totally earerent 3525 03:57:43.120 --> 03:57:46.159 experience in the nineteenth century than everybody else did, you know, 3526 03:57:46.280 --> 03:57:49.559 like the long Piece, they didn't experience that. Instead of 3527 03:57:49.600 --> 03:57:54.319 the experienced incredibly you know, chaotic circumstances. They were punctuated 3528 03:57:54.360 --> 03:58:00.120 by crisis after crisis after crisis after crisis, you know, 3529 03:58:00.000 --> 03:58:02.680 you know, way eighteen fourteen, you know, they were occupied 3530 03:58:02.680 --> 03:58:05.479 by Napoleon. You know, they didn't just they weren't just 3531 03:58:06.719 --> 03:58:08.040 you know, they weren't just part of you know, the 3532 03:58:08.360 --> 03:58:11.840 alliance that at the Battle of Nations or something. You know, 3533 03:58:12.159 --> 03:58:18.120 they they were they were under occupation for for for 3534 03:58:18.200 --> 03:58:23.159 close to a decade, you know, and from there it. 3535 03:58:23.959 --> 03:58:26.040 You know, like we talked about in a week or 3536 03:58:26.079 --> 03:58:31.479 two ago, really the only kind of punctuated, uh, military 3537 03:58:31.559 --> 03:58:35.520 crises in the nineteenth century in Europe were localized. You know. 3538 03:58:35.559 --> 03:58:37.479 There was like the Franco Prussian War, it was the 3539 03:58:37.479 --> 03:58:40.680 Crimean War, but neither one of those, you know, really 3540 03:58:41.440 --> 03:58:45.280 were as impactful like outside of a theater level. And 3541 03:58:45.319 --> 03:58:51.399 there's the eighteen forty eight revolutions, but that that that 3542 03:58:51.399 --> 03:58:55.079 that was nothing like nineteen seventeen or like or like 3543 03:58:55.120 --> 03:58:57.600 seventeen eighty nine. You know. But in the case of Spain, 3544 03:58:58.280 --> 03:59:04.639 they they're they they came to civil war. Conditions were 3545 03:59:04.680 --> 03:59:07.360 emerging in eighteen twenty two, eighteen twenty three, and French 3546 03:59:07.399 --> 03:59:11.440 military intervention ended that eighteen twenty seven, there was the 3547 03:59:11.520 --> 03:59:14.799 Catalan insurrection. You know, in these and these and these 3548 03:59:14.879 --> 03:59:21.280 uh these uh these secession oriented you know, the political 3549 03:59:21.319 --> 03:59:25.120 movements on sundry in Spain like always had always had 3550 03:59:25.120 --> 03:59:28.159 traction in peculiar ways. Eighteen thirty three, eighteen forty it 3551 03:59:28.239 --> 03:59:31.360 was the first Carlist War, which was incredibly bloody, you know, 3552 03:59:31.559 --> 03:59:34.680 eighteen fifty nine, you know, the Moroccan orb independence pops 3553 03:59:34.719 --> 03:59:39.040 off eighteen seventy to eighteen seventy six, there's the Second 3554 03:59:39.040 --> 03:59:43.559 Carlist War. During this whole time, Spain was fighting in 3555 03:59:43.559 --> 03:59:48.079 in in the Americas, you know, because of these Hispanic 3556 03:59:48.159 --> 03:59:51.840 American colonial revolts, you know, eighteen sixty eighteen eighteen sixty 3557 03:59:51.879 --> 03:59:54.719 eight to eighteen seventy eight, there's the Ten Years War 3558 03:59:54.760 --> 03:59:59.159 in Cuba and the subsequently Spain literally fought America, you know, 3559 03:59:59.200 --> 04:00:04.600 I mean this, this is the uh, the degree, the 3560 04:00:04.680 --> 04:00:08.920 degree with in Spain and the Two Cuban and the 3561 04:00:08.959 --> 04:00:12.680 Two Cuban Wars lost over one hundred thousand kia. You know. 3562 04:00:14.440 --> 04:00:17.559 No European power absorbed that much military attrition. There were 3563 04:00:17.600 --> 04:00:21.639 loss as much territory and so rapid its time frame 3564 04:00:21.680 --> 04:00:24.600 as Spain did in the nineteenth century. You know. Uh, 3565 04:00:24.760 --> 04:00:29.120 I'd say what happened in Spain at reduced scale and 3566 04:00:29.200 --> 04:00:35.639 adjusting for strategic conditions of the of the of the 3567 04:00:35.639 --> 04:00:39.239 power political landscape, what happened in Spain was as catastrophic 3568 04:00:39.280 --> 04:00:41.440 as what happened to the Soviet Union? Are you believing 3569 04:00:41.479 --> 04:00:45.280 more so? That Spain was quite literally violently ripped apart, 3570 04:00:45.440 --> 04:00:50.239 you know, and it was this is how the this 3571 04:00:50.559 --> 04:00:53.559 is what gave birth to the Spanish Revolutionary Left. Okay, 3572 04:00:53.600 --> 04:00:57.520 the Spanish Revolutionary Left was always more savage, more sanguinary, 3573 04:00:58.239 --> 04:01:02.600 more aggressive, more unwilling to compromise than than anybody except 3574 04:01:02.840 --> 04:01:09.840 probably the Bolsheviks who succeeded them, and uh you know 3575 04:01:09.840 --> 04:01:14.440 in the Jacobans, who inspired every every radical tendency subsequent. 3576 04:01:15.639 --> 04:01:18.479 But in eighteen twenty one is kind of viewed as 3577 04:01:18.479 --> 04:01:24.280 the year that the Spanish revolutionary Left came about. What 3578 04:01:24.360 --> 04:01:29.280 they were, the big the kind of seminal moment in 3579 04:01:29.479 --> 04:01:37.120 uh in a subsequent to you know, ferinand and Isabella, 3580 04:01:38.079 --> 04:01:41.399 you know, creating the Spanish national state was the Constitution 3581 04:01:41.639 --> 04:01:45.360 of eighteen twelve. And I'm sure gonna butcher this pronunciation, 3582 04:01:45.559 --> 04:01:48.479 but these liberal reformers, like some of them are quite radical, 3583 04:01:48.959 --> 04:01:51.879 you know, who are most responsible for structuring and authoring 3584 04:01:51.879 --> 04:01:57.799 of that constitution or they were called Doquianistas or Dosinistas. 3585 04:01:57.879 --> 04:01:59.719 I don't know if it's a hard or soft seat, 3586 04:02:00.319 --> 04:02:04.520 but they were pretty pretty rapidly moderated after they got 3587 04:02:04.520 --> 04:02:09.520 their weight, and they tried to implement a parliamentarian structure, 3588 04:02:10.079 --> 04:02:13.600 you know, of true sort of power sharing arrangements at 3589 04:02:13.680 --> 04:02:18.440 interval that by which you know, due process would be 3590 04:02:18.440 --> 04:02:22.719 abided regardless of the outcome of parliamentary elections. Okay, this 3591 04:02:22.799 --> 04:02:25.120 is the last time any faction in the left ever 3592 04:02:25.200 --> 04:02:33.520 abided that. And by eighteen twenty one, the disinfection from within, 3593 04:02:34.600 --> 04:02:39.840 you know, essentially the young Turks who came known as 3594 04:02:39.840 --> 04:02:45.399 the Exaltados. Their whole notion was, look, you know that 3595 04:02:45.520 --> 04:02:50.360 the prize in political contest, you know, within the state 3596 04:02:50.639 --> 04:02:55.360 are the state itself. Okay, if you know, if if 3597 04:02:55.360 --> 04:02:57.319 we're gonna you know, if every if every three or 3598 04:02:57.360 --> 04:02:59.959 six or eight or ten years, you know, we're gonna 3599 04:03:00.000 --> 04:03:03.719 we're gonna briefly capture, you know, we're gonna really capture 3600 04:03:03.879 --> 04:03:06.799 you know, legislative majorities and things, you know, and then 3601 04:03:06.840 --> 04:03:09.399 just rush to you know, implement as much relief to 3602 04:03:10.399 --> 04:03:13.200 you know, to uh, to our class comrades as as 3603 04:03:13.319 --> 04:03:15.760 as as possible. But then immediately, you know, hand the 3604 04:03:15.840 --> 04:03:18.559 range of state over to our enemies and watch that 3605 04:03:18.680 --> 04:03:23.000 be undone. You know, we're that that's that's uh, that's 3606 04:03:23.000 --> 04:03:26.920 beyond a fool's Errand you know, it's it's some it's 3607 04:03:26.959 --> 04:03:29.559 a it's gonna and and it's it's beyond and even 3608 04:03:29.559 --> 04:03:33.600 pointless some you know, sort of acceptance of the status 3609 04:03:33.639 --> 04:03:38.399 quo because that like obviously over time that simply grinds down, 3610 04:03:38.680 --> 04:03:42.600 you know, the revolutionary uh impetus like in in the 3611 04:03:42.680 --> 04:03:46.360 minds of of anyone who participates in the system, because 3612 04:03:46.680 --> 04:03:50.440 you know, a definition the system exists and neutralized, you know, 3613 04:03:50.959 --> 04:03:54.360 not just like like like reformist tendencies, let let alone 3614 04:03:54.360 --> 04:03:59.879 revolutionary ones. Okay, So exultatos, we're now willing to surrender 3615 04:04:00.239 --> 04:04:03.040 the ground, you know, for the sake of due process 3616 04:04:03.239 --> 04:04:08.120 or or or constidential consent, power sharing or anything else. Okay. 3617 04:04:08.840 --> 04:04:12.600 And there's a very Schmidtian concept of state, you know, 3618 04:04:12.680 --> 04:04:17.000 and not and and that I mean and that that 3619 04:04:17.040 --> 04:04:20.040 that makes sense, okay for for all kinds of reasons. 3620 04:04:20.440 --> 04:04:25.239 But the uh, the main, the main characteristic of the 3621 04:04:25.399 --> 04:04:30.639 Iseltatos and what remained as kind of the core essence 3622 04:04:31.159 --> 04:04:34.879 of the French or at the front the Spanish radical 3623 04:04:34.959 --> 04:04:40.079 left subsequent was a total rejection and moderation and an 3624 04:04:40.079 --> 04:04:44.920 employment of violence not just to secure, uh, not just 3625 04:04:44.959 --> 04:04:50.959 to secure absolute you know, majoritarian consensus, but also to 3626 04:04:51.120 --> 04:04:56.079 enforce government policy once they accomplished or captured that consensus, 3627 04:04:56.360 --> 04:04:59.040 you know, and and and a view that it was 3628 04:04:59.040 --> 04:05:03.440 perfectly legitimate to enforce, not just enforce compliance you know, 3629 04:05:03.520 --> 04:05:08.440 through use of of of a violent terror apparatus, but 3630 04:05:08.479 --> 04:05:11.399 also to crush all all resistance and the president they 3631 04:05:11.440 --> 04:05:14.799 drew upon. You know, when when when these kinds of 3632 04:05:15.040 --> 04:05:17.319 more liberal minded moderates would say, look, you know, we 3633 04:05:17.360 --> 04:05:22.120 all want the same things. You know where you're you're 3634 04:05:22.159 --> 04:05:26.799 setting us back with these kinds of sanguinary longings. The 3635 04:05:26.920 --> 04:05:29.440 rebuttal was, look, you know that our president for this 3636 04:05:29.600 --> 04:05:32.000 is seventeen eighty nine. You know, and if you think 3637 04:05:32.000 --> 04:05:34.280 the Jacobins were, you know, we're willing to come to 3638 04:05:34.319 --> 04:05:37.000 the table with royalists and and and engage in horse trading. 3639 04:05:37.360 --> 04:05:39.040 You know, you're you're you're out of your mind or 3640 04:05:39.079 --> 04:05:42.799 you're a liar, you know, and within the bound rationality 3641 04:05:42.840 --> 04:05:45.559 they're objectives. They did have a point, you can't you 3642 04:05:45.600 --> 04:05:51.040 can't transpose, you can't transpose parliamentarism to uh a body 3643 04:05:51.079 --> 04:05:54.920 politic where there's no moral consensus. And uh, you can't 3644 04:05:55.520 --> 04:05:58.559 the entire theory of of progressive as government with a 3645 04:05:58.639 --> 04:06:07.079 capital P even that itself uh you know as uh 3646 04:06:07.399 --> 04:06:11.920 it's epistemic priors are basically that you know, in conditions 3647 04:06:11.920 --> 04:06:15.639 where that consensus didn't exist before it has been achieved. 3648 04:06:16.159 --> 04:06:21.079 You know, as a conditioned precedent of of uh you know, 3649 04:06:21.239 --> 04:06:25.120 of of of of of our program. Okay, so all 3650 04:06:25.159 --> 04:06:26.799 these things, it should become clear that kind of like 3651 04:06:26.799 --> 04:06:30.000 a perfect storm. I mean, I it sound corny, but 3652 04:06:30.239 --> 04:06:35.399 a perfect constellation maybe more properly of factors, uh, you 3653 04:06:35.440 --> 04:06:40.719 know many uh many owing to an escapable precedent that 3654 04:06:41.040 --> 04:06:44.799 set Spain on a uniquely kind of tragic course. 3655 04:06:45.120 --> 04:06:48.920 But also you know, just after yeah, after that uh 3656 04:06:49.159 --> 04:06:50.319 technical difficulty. 3657 04:06:50.520 --> 04:06:54.680 Uh, that's all good, it's uh, it's kind of nostalgic, 3658 04:06:54.719 --> 04:07:00.200 you know. But the But at the same time, mean, 3659 04:07:00.239 --> 04:07:03.959 no matter how much you exult the you know, the 3660 04:07:03.959 --> 04:07:06.239 the kind of law of the blade and the barrel 3661 04:07:06.239 --> 04:07:09.239 of a gun over you know, that of the per 3662 04:07:09.319 --> 04:07:13.319 real pen and paper of you know, money and and 3663 04:07:13.399 --> 04:07:21.799 buying your way to to you know, policy realization. No, no, 3664 04:07:21.719 --> 04:07:26.280 no matter how much you're enthralled the violence and coercion 3665 04:07:27.280 --> 04:07:32.799 as sort of the currency of of uh, of authority, 3666 04:07:33.079 --> 04:07:35.479 at some point that that that sort of runs its course, 3667 04:07:35.879 --> 04:07:38.520 you know, and and it develops, it develops a crisis 3668 04:07:38.559 --> 04:07:41.200 of legitimacy, you know, and then people just get sick 3669 04:07:41.239 --> 04:07:46.799 of it. And this is exactly what happened, and uh 3670 04:07:47.239 --> 04:07:53.159 the the again once again to the Exultatles were overthrown 3671 04:07:53.200 --> 04:07:58.360 by by the French army on uh W, which which 3672 04:07:58.399 --> 04:08:01.879 became you know, it's it's interesting because a peculiar kind 3673 04:08:01.879 --> 04:08:06.719 of a peculiar kind of uh interdependence developed, like like 3674 04:08:06.760 --> 04:08:09.840 these multiple French military interventions. You know, this wasn't this 3675 04:08:09.920 --> 04:08:12.559 wasn't like the vermach like assaulting the Soviet Union or 3676 04:08:12.600 --> 04:08:15.360 like the Soviet Union like you know, assaulting Poland or something. 3677 04:08:15.680 --> 04:08:19.319 I mean, yeah, there's always like the deserts, categorical hostility 3678 04:08:19.600 --> 04:08:22.799 like the jury in defecto when you're talking about you know, 3679 04:08:23.159 --> 04:08:30.079 armed men of you know, understatus of alienage, you know, 3680 04:08:30.120 --> 04:08:36.159 crossing a sovereign frontier. But after uh, after Waterloo, it 3681 04:08:36.760 --> 04:08:42.000 there they just became you know, like the one of 3682 04:08:42.040 --> 04:08:47.440 the checks on h on anarchy. As Spain you know, 3683 04:08:47.559 --> 04:08:53.120 kind of went through this painful nineteenth century was uh, 3684 04:08:53.479 --> 04:08:58.040 you know, a tolerance if not you know, out and 3685 04:08:58.040 --> 04:09:04.319 out acceptance of uh a French interventionism, uh you know, 3686 04:09:04.440 --> 04:09:08.760 beyond their their common border. When you know, things appear 3687 04:09:08.840 --> 04:09:12.159 to be careering towards open civil war, and I mean 3688 04:09:12.200 --> 04:09:14.399 that that's that's a tangent, but it is it is 3689 04:09:14.479 --> 04:09:18.840 interesting and it goes to show you that, uh, some 3690 04:09:18.920 --> 04:09:24.079 of the Westphalian paradigm, uh in condition to peace between 3691 04:09:24.159 --> 04:09:27.000 states is a myth like this idea that you know, 3692 04:09:27.920 --> 04:09:30.319 borders are rigid to the point that you know, we 3693 04:09:30.319 --> 04:09:34.239 can't even talk about you know, complex interdependence as having 3694 04:09:34.280 --> 04:09:37.879 any you know sort of sort of high high concern 3695 04:09:37.920 --> 04:09:43.840 and high politics. But to put this in perspective, like 3696 04:09:43.920 --> 04:09:46.159 a dear friend of ours who came to visit me 3697 04:09:46.239 --> 04:09:49.879 the other week, uh he uh, he was kind of 3698 04:09:49.879 --> 04:09:53.239 have to mail me Stanley G. Paynes, p A Y 3699 04:09:53.520 --> 04:09:58.440 N E. Like I guess like Max Pain for the 3700 04:09:58.479 --> 04:10:02.920 for the for the gamer bros on the But this 3701 04:10:03.000 --> 04:10:05.360 is a this is a very like storied book that 3702 04:10:06.239 --> 04:10:09.360 and and our friend like mailed it to me, which 3703 04:10:09.440 --> 04:10:13.559 is great. So I read it after I got back 3704 04:10:13.559 --> 04:10:18.000 from jail, and it's shocked full of facts and figures 3705 04:10:18.280 --> 04:10:22.360 and it basically deals with uh like the book itself, 3706 04:10:22.920 --> 04:10:27.159 it basically deals with, you know what, like the unraveling 3707 04:10:27.159 --> 04:10:32.280 of the Spanish Republic, you know, especially the especially the 3708 04:10:32.319 --> 04:10:36.399 critical months through nineteen thirty five and in nineteen thirty 3709 04:10:36.479 --> 04:10:40.680 six before I'm not at the point of the formal 3710 04:10:41.399 --> 04:10:42.719 onset of hostilities. 3711 04:10:42.760 --> 04:10:48.120 But people are going to ask, people are going to 3712 04:10:48.159 --> 04:10:49.399 ask what the name of the book is. 3713 04:10:49.440 --> 04:10:54.639 So oh it's uh the Collapse of the Spanish Republic. Yeah, 3714 04:10:54.760 --> 04:10:59.000 I'm sorry, by Stanley G. Payne again, p A Y 3715 04:10:59.239 --> 04:11:02.840 n E. It's got nothing to do with like Marky 3716 04:11:02.959 --> 04:11:06.040 Mark though, like in Max Pain, but that's like. 3717 04:11:05.959 --> 04:11:09.600 I have like six books by him, so yeah. 3718 04:11:09.239 --> 04:11:11.520 Yeah, no, he he's written some great stuff. And like 3719 04:11:11.559 --> 04:11:15.360 I it's not I mean everybody, especially like all I 3720 04:11:15.399 --> 04:11:17.840 really do is is research, man, you know, like it's 3721 04:11:17.840 --> 04:11:20.799 not me like paying myself on the back about like 3722 04:11:20.879 --> 04:11:24.040 what a good boy I am or something, but even 3723 04:11:24.079 --> 04:11:29.680 somebody like me who's kind of stock in trade is 3724 04:11:29.840 --> 04:11:34.479 uh is academic research. There's there there are certain authors 3725 04:11:34.520 --> 04:11:36.840 that you're you know, you're going to rely on more 3726 04:11:36.879 --> 04:11:38.479 than others, and there's gonna be some that just aren't 3727 04:11:38.520 --> 04:11:41.200 really in your personal cannon. And like not only any 3728 04:11:41.440 --> 04:11:46.799 conceptual prejudice or something or judgment on quality, you know, 3729 04:11:46.959 --> 04:11:53.399 punitive or or praising. But for whatever reason, uh, Pain 3730 04:11:53.600 --> 04:11:58.639 never sort of entered into my personal canon. So uh again, uh, 3731 04:11:59.040 --> 04:12:01.920 dude knows who he is who sent us this book? 3732 04:12:02.000 --> 04:12:06.840 And that's awesome, and it's been a huge help for 3733 04:12:07.399 --> 04:12:09.520 one of the reasons why it's shocked full of of 3734 04:12:09.719 --> 04:12:13.600 data that you know, is not i mean not data 3735 04:12:13.600 --> 04:12:16.719 for data's sake, but you know, data of a material 3736 04:12:16.719 --> 04:12:19.920 of entering nature that helps put things into you know, 3737 04:12:19.959 --> 04:12:24.719 kind of high relief as regardless perspective and kind of 3738 04:12:24.719 --> 04:12:31.399 the sequences after from from the Napoleon occupation and or 3739 04:12:31.440 --> 04:12:37.000 Waterloo onward. They got the phases in in in modern 3740 04:12:37.040 --> 04:12:39.760 Spanish politics were you know, from eighteen to white to 3741 04:12:39.799 --> 04:12:44.079 eighteen fourteen, there was a there there there there was 3742 04:12:44.120 --> 04:12:47.239 a leftist regime in power, you know, And it's that 3743 04:12:47.239 --> 04:12:50.959 that that'd be worthy of an entire episode or a 3744 04:12:50.959 --> 04:12:55.520 couple of episodes, like what the relationship was of Napoleonism 3745 04:12:55.600 --> 04:13:01.040 to or Bonapartism to Jacobinism, and that's that, that's that's 3746 04:13:01.120 --> 04:13:05.239 that is a Gailian processes written all over it. But 3747 04:13:06.879 --> 04:13:10.159 make no mistake, uh, this this was this this this 3748 04:13:10.239 --> 04:13:14.200 wasn't Neo Jacobin regime at the reins during the occupation 3749 04:13:15.799 --> 04:13:18.559 again from eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty five 3750 04:13:18.680 --> 04:13:23.440 and thirty eight, eighteen fifty and fifty six, sixty eighteen 3751 04:13:23.559 --> 04:13:26.559 seventy three, nineteen seventeen, ninety twenty three, and then of 3752 04:13:26.600 --> 04:13:29.000 course in nineteen thirty one, ninety thirty nine. You know, 3753 04:13:29.079 --> 04:13:31.680 these were the the these are the these are the 3754 04:13:31.719 --> 04:13:36.520 phases of the or the or the electoral cycles or 3755 04:13:36.559 --> 04:13:40.920 constellation of cycles wherein the radical left essentially controlled the 3756 04:13:41.079 --> 04:13:46.719 entire national government. Okay, and again you know, as soon 3757 04:13:46.760 --> 04:13:51.200 as one as soon as as soon as one faction 3758 04:13:51.319 --> 04:13:55.200 would would lose to the other. You know, they have 3759 04:13:55.360 --> 04:13:59.000 every every everything there everything they're outgoing enemy had done 3760 04:13:59.159 --> 04:14:01.920 what was sabotage, you know, I mean, so it was 3761 04:14:01.920 --> 04:14:04.680 this it was just kind of like stalemate by design 3762 04:14:04.760 --> 04:14:07.040 and government, you know, and I mean that that's the 3763 04:14:07.079 --> 04:14:09.120 case of the center not being able to hold Also, 3764 04:14:09.879 --> 04:14:13.280 even uh if conditions aren't such that, you know, civil 3765 04:14:13.319 --> 04:14:17.399 war is uh inevitable. You're you're dealing event You're you're 3766 04:14:17.399 --> 04:14:19.040 dealing with the state that eventually is going to become 3767 04:14:19.040 --> 04:14:25.360 a failed state. Okay, the uh, the right wing control 3768 04:14:25.360 --> 04:14:28.600 of the regime, you know, whether it was you know, 3769 04:14:28.639 --> 04:14:31.760 whether whether it was you know, gonna get get conventional 3770 04:14:31.799 --> 04:14:35.600 Spanish nationalists, you know, like Carloss you know, uh, like 3771 04:14:35.719 --> 04:14:44.239 there's like various right wingers. You know, they're they're their 3772 04:14:44.239 --> 04:14:48.600 tenure or there. The other phases of of of government, 3773 04:14:48.719 --> 04:14:54.559 you know, dominance was uh, you know post Water eighteen fourteen, 3774 04:14:54.600 --> 04:14:58.959 eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty three, eighteen thirty nine, 3775 04:14:58.959 --> 04:15:05.200 eighteen fifty four, which is interesting because again staining an outlier. 3776 04:15:05.360 --> 04:15:08.920 You know, they avoided the eighteen forty eight revolutions because 3777 04:15:10.079 --> 04:15:16.520 you know, the right had the country locked down eighteen fifties, 3778 04:15:16.680 --> 04:15:20.399 eighteen fifty six to eighteen sixty eight, eighteen seventy four, 3779 04:15:20.600 --> 04:15:23.879 ninety seventeen, nineteen twenty three to ninety thirty one, and 3780 04:15:23.920 --> 04:15:27.719 of course nineteen thirty nine to nineteen seventy five. I 3781 04:15:27.799 --> 04:15:31.840 take some exception to that. I don't think we can 3782 04:15:31.879 --> 04:15:36.959 talk about the Franco regime after about nineteen fifty four 3783 04:15:37.559 --> 04:15:44.280 as being rightest. I just don't. Okay. Again, it was 3784 04:15:44.319 --> 04:15:50.959 in another example of Spain being a remarkable outlier. But 3785 04:15:51.360 --> 04:15:57.120 I accept what Pain is getting at. And again that 3786 04:15:57.280 --> 04:16:02.840 same paradigm was re emergent. Uh, it wasn't you know, 3787 04:16:02.879 --> 04:16:09.319 there was it wasn't bloody and uh and and who 3788 04:16:09.879 --> 04:16:13.440 almost apocalyptic like as is the case with the sales 3789 04:16:13.479 --> 04:16:17.200 are regime, you know which uh and Seals are the 3790 04:16:17.239 --> 04:16:20.200 fascinating guy, and you know, and the and the and 3791 04:16:20.239 --> 04:16:24.079 the the Portuguese were we're fighting alongside the Rhodesians against 3792 04:16:24.120 --> 04:16:28.200 the communists, you know, for for decades in Africa. You 3793 04:16:28.239 --> 04:16:34.280 know Ian Smith, who who is It's not like his 3794 04:16:34.440 --> 04:16:39.159 pros is particularly elegant or like edifying. And I'm not 3795 04:16:39.200 --> 04:16:42.920 saying that Ahead of State should bother with that. But 3796 04:16:43.120 --> 04:16:45.879 if people are looking for a book that provides that 3797 04:16:45.920 --> 04:16:49.280 sort of inspiration and kind of pleasurable reading, that's not 3798 04:16:49.360 --> 04:16:53.559 the book for you. But there's key insights into the 3799 04:16:53.600 --> 04:16:56.319 mind of Ian Smith. And Smith talks about sales Ar 3800 04:16:56.399 --> 04:16:58.760 is a truly great man. You know. He said, if 3801 04:16:58.639 --> 04:17:01.280 a Slider could have hung on, you know, for two 3802 04:17:01.319 --> 04:17:04.399 or three more years, we probably could have you know, 3803 04:17:04.399 --> 04:17:07.239 we probably could have smashed you know, like Zany upf 3804 04:17:07.399 --> 04:17:10.959 and you know, and and you know and and and 3805 04:17:11.040 --> 04:17:15.559 the proxies of the the wars off hects. But it's 3806 04:17:17.680 --> 04:17:21.159 it's uh, but again that you know, they're they're like 3807 04:17:21.159 --> 04:17:26.319 like Franco wasn't Salizar and Uh there was no Carnation 3808 04:17:26.520 --> 04:17:33.079 Revolution or whatever the uh the Progressive Uprising against Salazar 3809 04:17:33.280 --> 04:17:35.639 was branded. Memory fails me at the minute. I'm still 3810 04:17:35.680 --> 04:17:38.559 kind of shaken off the weekend. But I don't mean 3811 04:17:38.600 --> 04:17:40.799 I go was out like chasing skirt and like guzzling 3812 04:17:40.959 --> 04:17:43.120 Scotch or something. I mean like I got my ass 3813 04:17:43.200 --> 04:17:47.159 kicked this weekend and it hurt my brain. But the 3814 04:17:47.319 --> 04:17:54.040 uh another thing to consider too, you know, the uh, 3815 04:17:54.639 --> 04:17:59.760 the strong suit. I think inarguably in every other state 3816 04:18:00.360 --> 04:18:07.559 where you know radicals and or Bolsheviks and or you know, 3817 04:18:07.920 --> 04:18:11.680 ideological offshoots, you know, whether they were you know, left 3818 04:18:11.680 --> 04:18:17.520 wing syndical lists, you know, uh, anarcho syndical lists, like anarchists. 3819 04:18:18.440 --> 04:18:20.639 I mean, even among the anarchists, there was a kind 3820 04:18:20.680 --> 04:18:26.239 of rigid cadre structure whereby the inner discipline of the 3821 04:18:26.280 --> 04:18:30.440 party and it's cadres was what carried the day and 3822 04:18:30.559 --> 04:18:33.959 allowed them to allow you know, and carry them to victory. 3823 04:18:35.520 --> 04:18:40.719 In Spain, uh, the Spanish left, it was even more naked, 3824 04:18:40.760 --> 04:18:47.920 least sectarian personal like characterized by the faux messianic delusions 3825 04:18:47.959 --> 04:18:53.239 of of individual like players within it. You know, it 3826 04:18:53.280 --> 04:18:56.520 was it was pointlessly like inwardly directed, secretive like these 3827 04:18:56.520 --> 04:18:59.360 guys were constantly at war with each other. You know, 3828 04:19:00.280 --> 04:19:04.079 far far far more than in far more fractious than 3829 04:19:04.079 --> 04:19:06.840 the right wing was, you know. And that's the only 3830 04:19:06.920 --> 04:19:11.239 state like that. And that's not me saying like I mean, 3831 04:19:11.239 --> 04:19:14.479 the right wing is a lot more organic, okay, and 3832 04:19:14.719 --> 04:19:19.360 uh and that you know, and and and it's it 3833 04:19:19.399 --> 04:19:22.120 doesn't emerge. It didn't. It doesn't emerge from some you know, 3834 04:19:22.159 --> 04:19:27.280 from from a literal central committee. Okay. It's that there's 3835 04:19:27.280 --> 04:19:31.239 there's there's reasons of a structural and sociological and historical nature. 3836 04:19:31.719 --> 04:19:36.799 Like conventionally, you know, the modern uh radical left has 3837 04:19:36.840 --> 04:19:44.000 more internal discipline than the right. Okay. But that's why 3838 04:19:44.000 --> 04:19:46.719 it's so striking that in Spain like this was it 3839 04:19:46.799 --> 04:19:51.840 was literally the opposite, you know. And it also explains 3840 04:19:51.879 --> 04:19:55.760 why there this thing started when the Hrmacht intervened, you know, 3841 04:19:55.799 --> 04:19:59.559 invon Toma's u uh you know, counter legion and von 3842 04:19:59.639 --> 04:20:04.760 Tona's tanks and you know these uh and and he's 3843 04:20:04.799 --> 04:20:09.000 been and he stud like battlefield commanders, and Franco had 3844 04:20:08.879 --> 04:20:12.680 had a great eye for for like company level officers, 3845 04:20:12.799 --> 04:20:14.280 I don't know their equivalent to be in the Spanish 3846 04:20:14.319 --> 04:20:17.079 duvery of the day, but like like junior officers. So 3847 04:20:17.200 --> 04:20:19.360 you need you know, to be like platoon leaders and 3848 04:20:19.399 --> 04:20:24.239 company commanders like Franco and Franco's staff, like they knew 3849 04:20:24.239 --> 04:20:27.440 how to culture that kind of talent. Okay, So by 3850 04:20:27.440 --> 04:20:31.200 the time these pressures came to bear, like politically, like 3851 04:20:31.239 --> 04:20:34.959 the French left is like falling apart, you know, and 3852 04:20:35.120 --> 04:20:37.680 not even uh, not even you know, not even the 3853 04:20:37.760 --> 04:20:39.520 n k v D on the ground, not even dudes 3854 04:20:39.559 --> 04:20:42.200 like Eric Milk, like you know, just like whacking people 3855 04:20:42.280 --> 04:20:44.639 who just like you know, just cause like he was 3856 04:20:44.680 --> 04:20:48.639 probably an asshole anyway, and you know he his is 3857 04:20:48.799 --> 04:20:51.200 you know, he wasn't doing what he had to do too, 3858 04:20:51.879 --> 04:20:56.120 you know, sustain like internal discipline you know, within his 3859 04:20:56.159 --> 04:20:58.440 own chain of command and stuff like even with all 3860 04:20:58.639 --> 04:21:03.000 that like conventionally like almost comically it's not common when 3861 04:21:03.000 --> 04:21:05.440 they're talking about like extreme brutality, but that kind of 3862 04:21:05.440 --> 04:21:07.639 like you know, even even a kind of like ridiculous 3863 04:21:07.680 --> 04:21:11.239 level of like stalinists like you know, like compliance through 3864 04:21:11.280 --> 04:21:13.959 like massive brutal violence, like this is still couldn't even 3865 04:21:14.000 --> 04:21:17.479 like phase like this function of the process that they 3866 04:21:17.639 --> 04:21:25.040 just enumerated. And towards the end two you know, talking 3867 04:21:25.079 --> 04:21:31.920 about Spain being ironically you know, decades and in the 3868 04:21:31.959 --> 04:21:35.319 case of the Spanish mountern state emergence, you know, a 3869 04:21:35.479 --> 04:21:38.959 century you know, ahead of the rest of the continent. 3870 04:21:41.040 --> 04:21:44.719 The first uh, the first the first attempt to truly 3871 04:21:44.840 --> 04:21:50.159 organize like a trade like a trade union that you know, 3872 04:21:51.040 --> 04:21:54.799 with an eye for the ability to ultimately you know, 3873 04:21:55.879 --> 04:21:59.719 extoric concessions to general strike h that occurred as really 3874 04:21:59.760 --> 04:22:03.159 is the eighteen thirties, okay, like decades before the American 3875 04:22:03.200 --> 04:22:05.879 War between the States. You know, there's guys in Spain, 3876 04:22:06.520 --> 04:22:08.920 you know, who were talking like a narcocynic list and 3877 04:22:08.959 --> 04:22:12.120 like talking talking like Marcus Atlantis. You know, that's pretty 3878 04:22:12.159 --> 04:22:18.040 crazy and pretty remarkable, all right, especially again we consider that, 3879 04:22:18.799 --> 04:22:21.559 you know, it's I'm not like trading Spain like Spain. 3880 04:22:21.719 --> 04:22:24.600 Spain is fucking incredible. But you know, we're not talking 3881 04:22:24.600 --> 04:22:26.920 about like terrorists, and we're not talking about like Berlin, 3882 04:22:27.559 --> 04:22:29.639 and we're not talking about like London. You know, we're 3883 04:22:29.639 --> 04:22:32.799 talking about Spain. In some cases, you know, like very 3884 04:22:32.840 --> 04:22:36.959 provincial places in Spain that you know, not only weren't 3885 04:22:37.000 --> 04:22:40.239 known for their their kind of cosmopol and embrace of 3886 04:22:40.799 --> 04:22:43.879 exotic ideologies, you know, and things that just kind of 3887 04:22:43.920 --> 04:22:46.360 like tickle the fantasy of aristocrats just you know, thought 3888 04:22:46.399 --> 04:22:52.840 experiments that can be played out with real people. You know. Uh, 3889 04:22:53.479 --> 04:22:57.120 these guys were thinking and absolutely in like twentieth century terms, 3890 04:22:57.239 --> 04:22:59.520 but they were doing so a century early, you know, 3891 04:22:59.559 --> 04:23:02.920 and they were wing still I missed uh uh you 3892 04:23:02.959 --> 04:23:07.319 know a state that was that was still like you know, 3893 04:23:07.639 --> 04:23:10.680 almost entirely like a greery and in terms of its 3894 04:23:10.799 --> 04:23:19.159 local uh, his local economic output that, as Cyrus says 3895 04:23:19.200 --> 04:23:26.559 in The Warriors, is a miracle. But Giuseppe Finelle he 3896 04:23:26.680 --> 04:23:30.040 was an early uh figure of of of advance of 3897 04:23:30.079 --> 04:23:36.360 importance within uh the post Jacobin but pre Leninist left 3898 04:23:37.159 --> 04:23:41.600 and he arrived in Spain and in eighteen sixty eight 3899 04:23:42.840 --> 04:23:46.799 he'd been a great admirer of Bakunin. You know who 3900 04:23:46.840 --> 04:23:52.600 is Marx uh great opponent in the First International Josette 3901 04:23:52.639 --> 04:23:56.399 Finelle he were here out to Madrid without speaking any Spanish. 3902 04:23:56.680 --> 04:23:59.399 He basically had no money. But he said, look, and 3903 04:23:59.399 --> 04:24:01.840 and people like he was crazy, but he said, look, 3904 04:24:02.200 --> 04:24:05.079 he's like the idea as he called it, you know, 3905 04:24:05.200 --> 04:24:09.200 because guy, you know, uh, paris of thought. You know, 3906 04:24:09.239 --> 04:24:11.200 we'd call it the faith even though that's what it is. 3907 04:24:11.239 --> 04:24:16.000 It's an airs faith, he said, the idea, uh he said, 3908 04:24:16.079 --> 04:24:18.719 he said, look, this is the most fertile, like, this 3909 04:24:18.840 --> 04:24:24.840 is almost fertile ground. You know, we can find for 3910 04:24:25.319 --> 04:24:28.559 you know, for for Marxism on the content. Okay. Uh 3911 04:24:28.719 --> 04:24:32.120 there's literally no more like fertile proverbial fertile soil than 3912 04:24:32.120 --> 04:24:37.159 the Spanish body politic to embrace Marxism. Okay, and uh 3913 04:24:37.360 --> 04:24:43.600 he was right, Okay, rapidly Uh uh this got a 3914 04:24:45.159 --> 04:24:48.920 this this abundance of sex just popped up, you know, 3915 04:24:49.040 --> 04:24:53.399 like anarchists, libertarian, you know, anarcho cynic list, you know, 3916 04:24:54.239 --> 04:24:57.319 independent socialists, like every everything you can possibly think of. Okay, 3917 04:24:59.120 --> 04:25:03.520 and again that ultimately served like the like the the 3918 04:25:03.600 --> 04:25:08.319 inherent fractiousness and and sort of anarchic nature of that 3919 04:25:08.799 --> 04:25:13.760 political culture of uh the post Jacob and left in Spain. 3920 04:25:14.319 --> 04:25:17.440 I mean that cost him the war. And it's not 3921 04:25:17.959 --> 04:25:21.399 I I don't accept the kind of Thomas Pain idea 3922 04:25:21.479 --> 04:25:24.440 that like the more the more you hold an endless conversation, 3923 04:25:25.000 --> 04:25:27.000 you know, the more like marvelous things just kind of 3924 04:25:27.000 --> 04:25:31.200 like emerge out of motherfucker's mouths. But uh, but my 3925 04:25:31.319 --> 04:25:35.120 point is that there was a there was a remarkably 3926 04:25:35.280 --> 04:25:40.840 developed intellectual culture on the ground as regards politics and uh, 3927 04:25:41.760 --> 04:25:49.559 you know, political theory unless you're talking to the like, 3928 04:25:49.680 --> 04:25:52.000 unless you're really talking about like Straussian types are just 3929 04:25:52.000 --> 04:25:55.879 like you know, positing like you know, like values, claims 3930 04:25:57.200 --> 04:25:59.719 and and and trying to mind cloud from the fact that, 3931 04:25:59.799 --> 04:26:02.760 you know, they call themselves philosophers or something like. If 3932 04:26:02.760 --> 04:26:04.959 you're talking about if you're talking about polable theory, you're 3933 04:26:05.000 --> 04:26:09.239 talking about you know, you're you're talking about it imagining 3934 04:26:09.360 --> 04:26:12.760 the architecture of the state as an instrumentality of what 3935 04:26:12.840 --> 04:26:17.000 you want to accomplish, and you're imagining, you know, how 3936 04:26:17.040 --> 04:26:20.959 that can be structured in order to accomplish those objectives. Okay, 3937 04:26:22.440 --> 04:26:26.159 so it is essential to any revolutionary enterprise. Okay, Yeah, 3938 04:26:26.200 --> 04:26:29.520 there can be too many theorists and too few uh 3939 04:26:30.159 --> 04:26:34.879 you know, partisans. But the the converse is just as 3940 04:26:35.479 --> 04:26:39.319 self defeating. Okay, I'm sure there's those who are gonna 3941 04:26:39.319 --> 04:26:42.120 say that's like my egghead prejudice. It's not. It's not, 3942 04:26:42.319 --> 04:26:49.000 I don't it's but it's inarguable. Okay, it's not. It's 3943 04:26:49.000 --> 04:26:52.200 not something that it's not something that playable theory yeeks 3944 04:26:52.319 --> 04:26:56.520 just insist upon as as a cope or whatever. But 3945 04:26:58.280 --> 04:27:03.079 the uh, what did prevail initially in terms of the 3946 04:27:03.120 --> 04:27:08.680 dominant strain A bear in mind epistemic priors that informed 3947 04:27:08.799 --> 04:27:11.719 everyone in the radical left were one hundred percent Marxist 3948 04:27:11.799 --> 04:27:19.959 in nature. But the practical tendency, ideological tendency that became, 3949 04:27:20.680 --> 04:27:26.760 you know, most dominant, very rapidly, was we're things of 3950 04:27:26.760 --> 04:27:33.120 an anarchist nature, okay. And in the early days it 3951 04:27:33.280 --> 04:27:37.680 was the largest force within the urban working class of Spain. 3952 04:27:37.840 --> 04:27:42.000 Small that as it was, but again it was it 3953 04:27:42.040 --> 04:27:45.319 was the it was supposed to act as the vanguard. Okay, 3954 04:27:45.760 --> 04:27:50.239 it wasn't you know, a question of taking a head count. 3955 04:27:50.879 --> 04:27:53.440 And there's a lot of reasons why anarchism appealed so 3956 04:27:53.559 --> 04:27:56.520 much to this population, you know, a lot of which 3957 04:27:56.520 --> 04:28:01.079 we just got into. But also something that the left 3958 04:28:01.120 --> 04:28:04.559 in Spain realized very early on, was there, like, look, okay, 3959 04:28:04.959 --> 04:28:08.600 the structure of this state entails things, you know, like 3960 04:28:08.680 --> 04:28:13.879 the Roman church, you know, and uh entails things you 3961 04:28:13.920 --> 04:28:17.719 know like uh like chartered like chartered companies you know, 3962 04:28:17.760 --> 04:28:20.719 that are bound up with the private fortunes of aristocrats. 3963 04:28:21.120 --> 04:28:25.399 You know. The very architecture for the state is like 3964 04:28:25.479 --> 04:28:29.440 teams with teams with the hostility to our objectives. So 3965 04:28:29.680 --> 04:28:34.239 we've got to create parallel institutions. Okay, So we're gonna 3966 04:28:34.280 --> 04:28:36.479 have you know, like the workers Relieve organization. You know, 3967 04:28:36.479 --> 04:28:38.280 We're not We're not We're not gonna go to you know, 3968 04:28:38.639 --> 04:28:41.840 like the monastic order is to like help out widows 3969 04:28:41.600 --> 04:28:44.120 of like the men of ours who die. Okay, Like 3970 04:28:44.479 --> 04:28:48.399 you know, we're not We're not. We're not gonna We're not. 3971 04:28:48.399 --> 04:28:51.000 We're not gonna try and capture you know, the like 3972 04:28:51.000 --> 04:28:56.520 the local constables office and in Catalonia or whatever. You know, 3973 04:28:56.559 --> 04:28:59.399 Like we're gonna we're gonna maintain our own country discipline, 3974 04:28:59.799 --> 04:29:01.559 you know, and we're also going to like handle our 3975 04:29:01.600 --> 04:29:04.239 own like justice. You know, we're never going to rely 3976 04:29:04.360 --> 04:29:08.079 upon you know, the state or any of it's some 3977 04:29:08.600 --> 04:29:13.040 affiliated institutions and bureaucracies, you know, to guarantee as a 3978 04:29:13.159 --> 04:29:15.399 justice or anything else. And we started as we started death. 3979 04:29:15.479 --> 04:29:19.520 But that's the way it's going to be. And that 3980 04:29:19.840 --> 04:29:25.360 is something enduring too that basically everybody imitated, even even 3981 04:29:25.440 --> 04:29:27.799 even even the fascist and the National Socialist to some 3982 04:29:27.920 --> 04:29:33.760 degree imitated that, okay, because it's just in a in 3983 04:29:33.760 --> 04:29:37.920 a political warfare situation, especially during a long struggle, like 3984 04:29:37.959 --> 04:29:42.079 you you just have to do that, okay. And also 3985 04:29:42.239 --> 04:29:46.319 then you know you have you have new institutions and 3986 04:29:46.399 --> 04:29:48.799 being that you know, have never had sort of the 3987 04:29:48.879 --> 04:29:52.559 sovereign authority of the state behind them, but they have. 3988 04:29:52.799 --> 04:29:56.440 They have acted in authoritative capacities on matters of life 3989 04:29:56.440 --> 04:29:59.719 and death. And in some cases their existence is going 3990 04:29:59.799 --> 04:30:02.920 back decades. And you know, they had existed as you know, 3991 04:30:03.440 --> 04:30:07.399 floating like sovereigns and to themselves, you know, in the 3992 04:30:07.399 --> 04:30:09.680 fact that they commanded, you know, they commanded and controlled 3993 04:30:09.719 --> 04:30:12.479 you know, tens of thousands of men under arms. You know, 3994 04:30:12.600 --> 04:30:16.280 they had operational areas that constituted like you know, territory 3995 04:30:16.319 --> 04:30:19.399 they literally held. You know, at some point people are 3996 04:30:19.440 --> 04:30:23.479 talking symantics when they're like, oh, that's not really a government, 3997 04:30:23.559 --> 04:30:26.959 So what are you talking about? Why, you know what, 3998 04:30:27.000 --> 04:30:29.120 why would you even care about you know, why would 3999 04:30:29.120 --> 04:30:32.520 you gonna go to that trouble trying to replace the 4000 04:30:33.920 --> 04:30:37.680 you know, pre pre existing institutions of of of state. 4001 04:30:37.879 --> 04:30:45.600 Well that's that's why this shouldn't be It shouldn't be mysterious. 4002 04:30:46.319 --> 04:30:51.440 And finally, uh or I mean not relatively, It wasn't 4003 04:30:51.520 --> 04:30:53.959 just that the church and in Spain we can talk 4004 04:30:54.000 --> 04:30:56.479 about the Church, because I mean Spain, the Spanish are 4005 04:30:56.639 --> 04:31:05.159 Catholic people, you know it Uh, the uh, the Spanish 4006 04:31:05.319 --> 04:31:07.440 left view they view they viewed the church and they 4007 04:31:07.559 --> 04:31:11.239 viewed UH. Despite the fact that I mean that there's 4008 04:31:11.239 --> 04:31:14.440 a delicious irony to fern in Isabella, you know, basically 4009 04:31:15.559 --> 04:31:20.559 removing the mandate of U of the Holy See to 4010 04:31:20.760 --> 04:31:24.520 render a judgment on power political questions of war in peace. 4011 04:31:25.200 --> 04:31:30.280 Well at the same time you know, enforcing uh, you know, 4012 04:31:30.319 --> 04:31:34.280 the moral law according to the understanding of of uh, 4013 04:31:34.719 --> 04:31:37.239 the papacy in a way sight and scene probably for 4014 04:31:37.280 --> 04:31:42.440 five hundred years. And there's also there's also a uh, 4015 04:31:43.680 --> 04:31:46.600 there's also a real irony in guys, you know, like 4016 04:31:46.799 --> 04:31:49.799 waving a red banner as they charging the combat, you know, 4017 04:31:49.920 --> 04:31:54.280 demanding you know, social justice basically you know, assigning the 4018 04:31:54.360 --> 04:31:59.120 Marxist gobbledygook. They're basically saying, like, we're Catholic people, you 4019 04:31:59.159 --> 04:32:02.200 know who need you know, who need a Calolic church 4020 04:32:02.719 --> 04:32:05.159 to sort of act as an air mediory between us 4021 04:32:05.520 --> 04:32:08.920 and there would be class oppressors or aggressors, you know. 4022 04:32:09.159 --> 04:32:11.600 Yet we reject the Kalok Church and want to destroy it. 4023 04:32:12.920 --> 04:32:17.520 But again, the internal logic of it, of the enterprise. 4024 04:32:18.559 --> 04:32:20.879 That's what they would have had to do, Okay, and 4025 04:32:20.879 --> 04:32:23.520 that's one of the reasons people recognize us on some level, 4026 04:32:23.879 --> 04:32:27.959 even people who aren't, you know, ultra sophisticated. Now that 4027 04:32:28.000 --> 04:32:29.920 I'm so sophisticated, but I mean, do spend all day 4028 04:32:29.920 --> 04:32:34.520 like reading about this stuff. But you know, the uh, 4029 04:32:35.200 --> 04:32:41.040 it's it should uh it should become clear, you know, 4030 04:32:41.360 --> 04:32:47.159 at least in part why some of these so of 4031 04:32:47.159 --> 04:32:52.360 these peculiarities became you know, not just sort of you know, 4032 04:32:52.479 --> 04:32:57.959 quirkly identified with the Spanish modern state, but somehow inextricably 4033 04:32:58.079 --> 04:33:00.760 bound off with like it's it's it's it's you know, 4034 04:33:03.520 --> 04:33:08.159 and that's and that's about all I got for today. Man. Again, 4035 04:33:08.200 --> 04:33:14.119 I'm still kind of recovering from my from my my 4036 04:33:14.200 --> 04:33:20.200 vacation the Cook County, at the Cook County Resort and hotel. 4037 04:33:21.200 --> 04:33:24.400 But I thought it was important to cover because we're 4038 04:33:24.400 --> 04:33:27.520 gonna come back to a lot of these aspects and 4039 04:33:27.560 --> 04:33:29.279 I didn't want it to be I didn't want them 4040 04:33:29.319 --> 04:33:33.360 to be issues the first impression, you know, as they 4041 04:33:33.439 --> 04:33:38.720 kind of re emerged. But I promise when we record next, 4042 04:33:39.040 --> 04:33:44.040 we'll we'll get into you know, general Franco arriving back 4043 04:33:44.080 --> 04:33:48.240 from Morocco and you know kind of how battle resolved 4044 04:33:49.319 --> 04:33:55.799 between uh, you know, between the Nationalist element and UH 4045 04:33:55.959 --> 04:33:59.759 counter Legion and the Hermacht and and Thomas tanks, you know, 4046 04:34:00.319 --> 04:34:04.000 and the UH and and the Reds and and Republicans 4047 04:34:04.560 --> 04:34:06.200 all in Sundry. Does that sound good? 4048 04:34:06.720 --> 04:34:10.240 Sounds great? Plug away? 4049 04:34:10.840 --> 04:34:20.159 What? Yes, sir, I'm still playing catch up, but I'm 4050 04:34:21.240 --> 04:34:24.759 as I've disclosed the people, you know, the last few weeks, 4051 04:34:25.880 --> 04:34:29.560 me and my my crime partner Rake, where we're We're 4052 04:34:30.799 --> 04:34:33.599 We're trying at a feverish pace to get season two 4053 04:34:33.599 --> 04:34:36.479 of the podcast up and running, and I promise it 4054 04:34:36.479 --> 04:34:39.599 will be in the next few weeks, you know. In 4055 04:34:39.639 --> 04:34:42.720 the meantime, I'm gonna be uploading a lot of free stuff, 4056 04:34:43.599 --> 04:34:47.639 you know, to the sub stack, Like today, I just 4057 04:34:47.759 --> 04:34:51.119 uploaded an interview with a friend of mine, like, you know, 4058 04:34:51.159 --> 04:34:53.840 an older dude who uh who knew Jeff Ford and 4059 04:34:53.880 --> 04:34:58.040 he banged with the l Ruken here in Chicago. I'm 4060 04:34:58.040 --> 04:35:00.000 gonna be I'm gonna when I you know, I'm gonna 4061 04:35:00.159 --> 04:35:02.880 dropping a lot of that kind of stuff until we 4062 04:35:02.959 --> 04:35:06.400 kind of formally relaunched the brand. I've been doing. I've 4063 04:35:06.400 --> 04:35:09.040 been recording a lot with Nico Kloud, who's a fascinating guy, 4064 04:35:09.720 --> 04:35:13.720 an artist and a very controversial figure that's gonna he's 4065 04:35:13.720 --> 04:35:17.840 gonna feature heavily in season two. But you can find 4066 04:35:17.840 --> 04:35:22.599 the substick in the pod at real Thomas seven seven 4067 04:35:22.720 --> 04:35:27.279 seven that substick dot com. Uh. You can find me 4068 04:35:27.319 --> 04:35:30.959 on Twitter, but my tweets are protected. People tell me 4069 04:35:31.000 --> 04:35:34.119 Twitter is not censoring as aggressively as before, but I've 4070 04:35:34.119 --> 04:35:38.439 literally hit my accounts nuke so many times for you know, 4071 04:35:39.240 --> 04:35:41.000 and number once if I. 4072 04:35:40.599 --> 04:35:43.000 I got suspended for twelve hours yesterday and they didn't 4073 04:35:43.000 --> 04:35:43.919 even tell me why. 4074 04:35:44.279 --> 04:35:46.959 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean if there's just like crazy bullshit, 4075 04:35:47.000 --> 04:35:49.799 even when the commissars aren't, you know, like busily like 4076 04:35:50.439 --> 04:35:51.959 and excited, I mean, it's like it's like it's like 4077 04:35:52.119 --> 04:35:54.479 born to them or something to just like censor people, 4078 04:35:54.520 --> 04:35:57.919 I think, because they're fucking freaks. But a point being 4079 04:35:58.000 --> 04:36:00.880 like I do protect my tweets because I is to 4080 04:36:00.919 --> 04:36:03.880 be the only way to like not be fucking nuke them, 4081 04:36:04.240 --> 04:36:08.599 you know, just arbitrar early. But you can find you 4082 04:36:08.599 --> 04:36:11.360 can always find me in my website. It's just Thomas 4083 04:36:11.360 --> 04:36:14.439 seven seven seven dot com number seven eight twenty seven 4084 04:36:14.479 --> 04:36:17.599 seven seven dot com. That's where all my like fresh 4085 04:36:17.639 --> 04:36:21.080 stuff like appears. It's still like somewhat under construction, but 4086 04:36:22.680 --> 04:36:27.840 you can that will always be around. Okay. And as uh, 4087 04:36:28.840 --> 04:36:31.599 people keep asking about the channel content that is coming 4088 04:36:31.639 --> 04:36:34.040 to I haven't figured out exactly how I want to 4089 04:36:34.040 --> 04:36:37.159 integrate it with the pod. I want some I don't 4090 04:36:37.159 --> 04:36:38.759 want to just be like a mirror of the pod. 4091 04:36:38.840 --> 04:36:41.639 But with video, I mean, if people want sign some 4092 04:36:41.680 --> 04:36:43.799 people like that and they just like listening to stuff, 4093 04:36:43.799 --> 04:36:47.200 I like to see your YouTube, I'll do that, but 4094 04:36:47.400 --> 04:36:50.360 I do want some original video content. I don't want 4095 04:36:50.360 --> 04:36:53.240 primarily that the channel to be that like one thing 4096 04:36:53.240 --> 04:36:58.639 at a time. And I'm uh, I want to I'm yeah, 4097 04:36:58.720 --> 04:37:01.360 and it's but that's the basically where we're at. Okay, 4098 04:37:01.959 --> 04:37:06.319 and just keep uh, just keep your eyes peeled for 4099 04:37:06.639 --> 04:37:09.959 like fresh stuff because I'm gonna be uploading I'm gonna 4100 04:37:09.959 --> 04:37:12.000 be uploading a ton of like just free stuff like 4101 04:37:12.119 --> 04:37:16.680 it today every several days. And when when the season 4102 04:37:16.680 --> 04:37:19.479 two of the pod launches, all season one content is 4103 04:37:19.479 --> 04:37:24.119 going to become free immediately and it will be dope 4104 04:37:24.240 --> 04:37:27.599 like and when I say like rebranding, like we've got 4105 04:37:27.639 --> 04:37:30.520 the resources and and kind of the knowledge as well 4106 04:37:30.520 --> 04:37:32.560 as you know, sort of like the you know, a 4107 04:37:32.680 --> 04:37:35.000 higher profile in terms of people who are willing to 4108 04:37:35.000 --> 04:37:38.919 work with us, you know, like like Nego klout like yourself, 4109 04:37:39.240 --> 04:37:42.080 I'm not seeing you guys are like similar people and 4110 04:37:43.479 --> 04:37:48.000 understand okay, okay, but and uh and and people like 4111 04:37:48.200 --> 04:37:50.599 you know, my friend Big d you know, who drops 4112 04:37:50.599 --> 04:37:53.720 his system when you're honest about the old rouken But uh, 4113 04:37:54.159 --> 04:37:58.959 like we're popping quite splendidly, and and that that that's 4114 04:37:59.000 --> 04:38:02.159 you know a lot for other potentialities. So yeah, I 4115 04:38:02.200 --> 04:38:06.439 won't I won't hold up the recording anymore. Man. That's 4116 04:38:06.479 --> 04:38:08.560 that's all I got. Thank you so much. And thank 4117 04:38:08.599 --> 04:38:11.520 you again for like the trans love and concern for 4118 04:38:11.680 --> 04:38:15.799 me when you know I went dark and accounted being arrested, 4119 04:38:17.080 --> 04:38:19.439 Like I really mean that. I got huge love for 4120 04:38:19.599 --> 04:38:21.400 all of our friends a. 4121 04:38:21.599 --> 04:38:23.000 Man, I appreciate it. Thank you,