WEBVTT

1
00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

2
00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:37.679
<v Speaker 1>of our three part series about the disappearance of Stephen Kosher. Robin,

3
00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:39.280
<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everyone up on what we

4
00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:41.640
<v Speaker 1>talked about in our previous episode?

5
00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:44.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, Stephen Kosher was a young thirty year old man

6
00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:47.399
<v Speaker 2>who came from a very devout Mormon family in Salt

7
00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:50.159
<v Speaker 2>Lake City, Utah. He was very close to his family,

8
00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:53.560
<v Speaker 2>but had decided to relocate to the town of Saint George,

9
00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.640
<v Speaker 2>which was a couple hundred miles away. Unlike many of

10
00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:00.719
<v Speaker 2>his siblings, Stephen was still unmarried and had not had children,

11
00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:03.479
<v Speaker 2>and seemed to be going through a difficult time because

12
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:06.079
<v Speaker 2>the Great economic Recession of two thousand and eight. It

13
00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:09.159
<v Speaker 2>just happened. He was having trouble securing full time employment

14
00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:12.519
<v Speaker 2>and paying his bills, and by December of two thousand

15
00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:16.120
<v Speaker 2>and nine, he started going on some inexplicable road trips

16
00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:18.920
<v Speaker 2>where he would drive through various places in Utah and

17
00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:22.239
<v Speaker 2>Nevada and nobody really knew where he was going. There

18
00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:24.319
<v Speaker 2>was one point where he stopped to visit the parents

19
00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:26.480
<v Speaker 2>of a woman he used to date, but she wasn't

20
00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:29.040
<v Speaker 2>around at that time, so he just had lunch with them,

21
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:32.120
<v Speaker 2>and they pretty much could just track what Stephen was

22
00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:34.920
<v Speaker 2>doing through his cell phone and his bank card and

23
00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:38.439
<v Speaker 2>credit card records, but nobody knows why he decided to

24
00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:40.719
<v Speaker 2>make these lengthly trips. One of them was nearly eleven

25
00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:44.640
<v Speaker 2>hundred miles long. So finally, on December the thirteenth, two

26
00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:48.000
<v Speaker 2>thousand and nine, Steven decided to make an unexplained trip

27
00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.400
<v Speaker 2>to Henderson, Nevada, just outside Las Vegas, about one hundred

28
00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:54.239
<v Speaker 2>and thirty five miles away from Saint George, and he

29
00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:58.079
<v Speaker 2>would go into an affluent community for retired people over

30
00:01:58.079 --> 00:01:59.959
<v Speaker 2>the age of fifty five that he didn't seem to

31
00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:03.680
<v Speaker 2>any connection too, and one of the residents's cameras would

32
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.040
<v Speaker 2>show him parking his car and just walking away, and

33
00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.199
<v Speaker 2>then he just vanished without a trace. Nobody knows what

34
00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:13.159
<v Speaker 2>Stephen was doing there. They would get some pings off

35
00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:15.159
<v Speaker 2>his cell phone over the course of the next few days,

36
00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:17.639
<v Speaker 2>and even evidence that his cell phone has been used,

37
00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:20.919
<v Speaker 2>but no trace of Stephen has ever been found, and

38
00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:23.520
<v Speaker 2>over the years have been a number of speculation about

39
00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:26.080
<v Speaker 2>why he made that trip there, wondering maybe he was

40
00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.439
<v Speaker 2>offered a job, maybe he got roped into something illegal,

41
00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.199
<v Speaker 2>and We went through the known facts of the case

42
00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:34.360
<v Speaker 2>on part one, and here on Part two, we're going

43
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:36.960
<v Speaker 2>to talk about some theories about that, and then in

44
00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:39.960
<v Speaker 2>our next episode, Part three, we're going to share some

45
00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:42.280
<v Speaker 2>new information about this case that has come out in

46
00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:44.719
<v Speaker 2>recent years and may shed some more light on what

47
00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.479
<v Speaker 2>happened to Stephen. So, if you've listened to the Trail

48
00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:49.879
<v Speaker 2>Went Cold and the Path Went Chili long enough, I'm

49
00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:52.400
<v Speaker 2>sure you're well aware that I've always had a particular

50
00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:56.199
<v Speaker 2>fascination with unsolved mysteries where a victim goes missing or

51
00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:59.159
<v Speaker 2>winds up dead after traveling to a location they had

52
00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:02.680
<v Speaker 2>no reason to be at. This certainly applies here because

53
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.879
<v Speaker 2>we have Stephen Kosher making unexplained one hundred and thirty

54
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.680
<v Speaker 2>mile trip from Saint George, Utah, to Henderson, Nevada. Before

55
00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:12.759
<v Speaker 2>he exited his vehicle and vanished without a trace. That

56
00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.199
<v Speaker 2>would be unusual enough on its own, but what makes

57
00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:19.439
<v Speaker 2>this case extra bazaar is that Stephen made multiple unexplained

58
00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:22.719
<v Speaker 2>road trips in the days prior to his disappearance, including

59
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.719
<v Speaker 2>a nearly eleven hundred mile round trip through Utah and Nevada,

60
00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.240
<v Speaker 2>which he drove over the course of less than twenty

61
00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:32.400
<v Speaker 2>four hours. So why did Stephen decide to make these

62
00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:35.039
<v Speaker 2>trips and did they have any connection to his disappearance.

63
00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.199
<v Speaker 2>Could these trips be an indication that Stephen might not

64
00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.000
<v Speaker 2>have been in his right state of mind at the time,

65
00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:42.280
<v Speaker 2>or did he get himself involved with something that his

66
00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.319
<v Speaker 2>friends and family did not know about. There have been

67
00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:48.479
<v Speaker 2>so many theories pushed forward about Stephen's disappearance, such as

68
00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.240
<v Speaker 2>him being the victim of foul play, or disappearing to

69
00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.080
<v Speaker 2>start a new life, or walking off into the Nevada

70
00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:56.960
<v Speaker 2>desert to take his own life. But the one theory

71
00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.919
<v Speaker 2>we haven't mentioned yet, which I'm one hundred percent convinced

72
00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.080
<v Speaker 2>is not true, is that Stephen ran away with another

73
00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.479
<v Speaker 2>missing persons from Utah who vanished during that same time period.

74
00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:10.960
<v Speaker 3>Susan Powell, Okay, you have to tell me more about

75
00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:13.400
<v Speaker 3>that case in a minute. But to talk about Stephen

76
00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:16.399
<v Speaker 3>when we look at his life, correct me if I'm wrong.

77
00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:18.240
<v Speaker 3>But I remember I was talking about the fact that

78
00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:20.519
<v Speaker 3>he was a man of deep Mormon faith.

79
00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.720
<v Speaker 2>Is that right? Yep?

80
00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:24.480
<v Speaker 3>Definitely, Okay, So he was a man of deep Mormon faith.

81
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.399
<v Speaker 3>He was in fact going to wards and visiting with

82
00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:30.759
<v Speaker 3>important people at his church and friends from church shortly

83
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:34.759
<v Speaker 3>before he disappeared. And yes, he was not married, which

84
00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:36.959
<v Speaker 3>would have caused a lot of stress on a young

85
00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:39.800
<v Speaker 3>Mormon man because marriage and family is one of their

86
00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.959
<v Speaker 3>key belief systems and importance in their life. But I

87
00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:47.879
<v Speaker 3>also think that his faith would make it less likely

88
00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:52.560
<v Speaker 3>that he simply wandered off and completed suicide if he had.

89
00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.079
<v Speaker 3>I truly feel like because he was so active in

90
00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.800
<v Speaker 3>his faith, he would have left some message for his

91
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:00.759
<v Speaker 3>family or some message for the elder in the church

92
00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:05.319
<v Speaker 3>discussing why and where his heart was because of a

93
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:07.279
<v Speaker 3>desire to be in heaven right, because I think his

94
00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.279
<v Speaker 3>faith truly was his driving force. And if you have

95
00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:12.639
<v Speaker 3>been around people of the Mormon faith, there is just

96
00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:16.759
<v Speaker 3>such a beautiful component of the importance of family and

97
00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.560
<v Speaker 3>the future and what family means for your admittance into heaven.

98
00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:23.800
<v Speaker 3>And so I would have thought to you'd see some

99
00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:26.800
<v Speaker 3>kind of communication to his family or to the elders

100
00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:30.439
<v Speaker 3>of the church. Also, remember Stephen had lost his job,

101
00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.680
<v Speaker 3>it was the recession had hit. It was a horrible

102
00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:37.279
<v Speaker 3>time in America, and so his finances were struggling. And

103
00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:40.600
<v Speaker 3>yet you see him out shopping. You see him making

104
00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.399
<v Speaker 3>plans to visit family for Christmas, and you see him

105
00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:47.360
<v Speaker 3>making these trips while denying financial assistance from anybody who's offering.

106
00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.399
<v Speaker 3>And so I think that you have to step back

107
00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:53.199
<v Speaker 3>and say where were his finances coming from.

108
00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:54.879
<v Speaker 2>Did he have a.

109
00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:59.079
<v Speaker 3>Large credit card where he had a high high balance

110
00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:01.600
<v Speaker 3>that he could you and he was simply charging up

111
00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:05.439
<v Speaker 3>a credit card, or was he doing something maybe nefarious,

112
00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:10.160
<v Speaker 3>maybe just behind closed doors where he is getting some

113
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:13.079
<v Speaker 3>kind of financial support. And part of that includes the driving.

114
00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:15.439
<v Speaker 3>We talked about the fact that, oh man, one of

115
00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:17.680
<v Speaker 3>the most expensive parts of our trip when we go

116
00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:22.000
<v Speaker 3>somewhere is stopping, getting drinks, getting snacks, getting food, spending

117
00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:25.360
<v Speaker 3>the night in hotels to get to our destination. And

118
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.399
<v Speaker 3>so if he's struggling at that point and yet he's

119
00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:31.519
<v Speaker 3>making all these trips, it has to be for something

120
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:33.519
<v Speaker 3>or someone.

121
00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:35.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's what a lot of people have been thinking,

122
00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:39.040
<v Speaker 2>is that he's struggling so much financially. The one thing

123
00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:40.839
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to do is go on these lengthy

124
00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:43.120
<v Speaker 2>road trips and have to stop and pay for gas

125
00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.560
<v Speaker 2>on so many occasions. Because even if he just kind

126
00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.839
<v Speaker 2>of was disillusioned, he needed to drive around for a

127
00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:51.399
<v Speaker 2>while to clear his head or something like that. That

128
00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:54.120
<v Speaker 2>still costs money. So that's why there has always been

129
00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:56.920
<v Speaker 2>speculation that he might have gotten himself involved in something

130
00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.759
<v Speaker 2>and that all of these road trips were somehow connected

131
00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:01.680
<v Speaker 2>to and that it was allowing him to make some

132
00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:04.120
<v Speaker 2>extra money on the side, but they've just never been

133
00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:05.560
<v Speaker 2>able to conclusively prove this.

134
00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:09.959
<v Speaker 1>So on December seventh, two thousand and nine, lesson one

135
00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:13.920
<v Speaker 1>week before Stephen vanished, twenty eight year old Susan Powell,

136
00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:17.240
<v Speaker 1>her husband Josh Powell, and their two sons, four year

137
00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.519
<v Speaker 1>old Charlie and two year old Braden, were discovered to

138
00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.800
<v Speaker 1>be missing from their residence in West Valley City, which

139
00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:27.879
<v Speaker 1>is three hundred miles northwest of Saint George. Josh and

140
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.839
<v Speaker 1>the two boys returned later that day, and he claimed

141
00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:34.639
<v Speaker 1>that he had taken Charlie and Braden camping. According to Josh,

142
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.319
<v Speaker 1>Susan did not come with them and was still sleeping

143
00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:40.319
<v Speaker 1>when they left the house. Josh maintained that he had

144
00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:43.879
<v Speaker 1>no idea where Susan was, but given that the temperatures

145
00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:47.480
<v Speaker 1>were below freezing at that time and the weather was miserable,

146
00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.519
<v Speaker 1>nobody believed his camping story, and since the couple had

147
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:56.160
<v Speaker 1>been experiencing marital difficulties, Josh quickly became the prime suspect

148
00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.600
<v Speaker 1>in his wife's disappearance. Well the following year, Josh and

149
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.519
<v Speaker 1>his family and started to publicly express their belief that

150
00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:07.439
<v Speaker 1>Susan disappeared voluntarily and ran off with Stephen Kosher. In fact,

151
00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:11.680
<v Speaker 1>Josh's father, Steve Powell, sent law enforcement a nine page

152
00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.759
<v Speaker 1>letter outlining the similarities between the two cases, and the

153
00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.720
<v Speaker 1>letter contained a lot of points which he believed supported

154
00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:21.879
<v Speaker 1>the theory that Susan and Stephen had been conducting a

155
00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.959
<v Speaker 1>secret affair and orchestrated their disappearance in order to frame

156
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:29.759
<v Speaker 1>Josh for murder. Like Stephen, Susan was a devout Mormon

157
00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:32.480
<v Speaker 1>and had briefly lived in West Valley City for a

158
00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:35.399
<v Speaker 1>few months in two thousand and seven, and the Powell

159
00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.639
<v Speaker 1>suspected that they'd taken off to Brazil since Stephen had

160
00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:43.320
<v Speaker 1>previously done missionary work there. While investigators never found any

161
00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:47.000
<v Speaker 1>evidence that the two cases were connected, and since Stephen's

162
00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:50.000
<v Speaker 1>movements and communications during the last week of his life

163
00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:53.639
<v Speaker 1>are pretty well documented, there did not even seem to

164
00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:57.279
<v Speaker 1>be any opportunity for him to orchestrate a disappearance with Susan.

165
00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.759
<v Speaker 3>That is incredibly I remember the Susan Powell case. The

166
00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:05.399
<v Speaker 3>little boys were young and the husband says he took

167
00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.679
<v Speaker 3>them camping, which ended up being a very odd story.

168
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:10.279
<v Speaker 3>Like I think he left in the middle of the

169
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:13.840
<v Speaker 3>night to go camping with them, not you know, early

170
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:15.879
<v Speaker 3>in the evening or anything. I feel like, if I

171
00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:18.399
<v Speaker 3>recall correctly, he left it like midnight or one in

172
00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:21.360
<v Speaker 3>the morning to go camping with these little idybe boys,

173
00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:23.600
<v Speaker 3>and then all of a sudden, his wife's just missing.

174
00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.879
<v Speaker 3>Highly suspicious, and it's really interesting that even the family

175
00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:30.519
<v Speaker 3>jumps on board with no evidence to say, hey, it's

176
00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:33.000
<v Speaker 3>not Josh. It's got to be the fact that she

177
00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:35.480
<v Speaker 3>ran off and is having some affair. I'll tell you,

178
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:40.679
<v Speaker 3>a deeply devouted Mormon mom with two little boys probably

179
00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:44.360
<v Speaker 3>has goals to have more babies, and those boys were

180
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:47.919
<v Speaker 3>her world, Like I said, they're her worth here on earth.

181
00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.799
<v Speaker 3>I doubt if she's truly devout in her faith, she's

182
00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:53.679
<v Speaker 3>walking away from those children. And as a mom myself

183
00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.000
<v Speaker 3>who's not Mormon, but a woman of faith and just

184
00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.559
<v Speaker 3>a mom my children in my world. Even if my

185
00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:02.720
<v Speaker 3>husband Nirad odds, those babies are not going to leave me,

186
00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:05.279
<v Speaker 3>so I'd fight tooth and now to make sure I

187
00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:08.799
<v Speaker 3>had access to my children. And so Susan's death seems

188
00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:12.399
<v Speaker 3>quite suspicious and geared towards Josh, and this just looks

189
00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:13.559
<v Speaker 3>like a pretty desperate move.

190
00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:17.039
<v Speaker 1>Is this the case where Josh Powell's dad is really creepy?

191
00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:21.039
<v Speaker 2>He is, Yes, well we're gonna mention it in a moment.

192
00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:24.440
<v Speaker 2>But they did an entire podcast about this called Cold,

193
00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.240
<v Speaker 2>which was like several episodes long, and Steve Powell came

194
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:30.480
<v Speaker 2>off as really really creepy. I think there were like

195
00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.879
<v Speaker 2>stories about how he put hidden cameras in Susan's house

196
00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:35.960
<v Speaker 2>to spy on her while he was changing and stuff.

197
00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.120
<v Speaker 2>And I believe that he even made songs for these,

198
00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:42.440
<v Speaker 2>like really creepy love songs. So I know Josh was

199
00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:44.360
<v Speaker 2>a bad person, but when you see how creepy his

200
00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:49.360
<v Speaker 2>father is, you're somehow not surprised, so as I'm sure

201
00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:51.720
<v Speaker 2>many of you probably know. Due to Josh being a

202
00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:55.840
<v Speaker 2>suspect in his wife's disappearance, Susan's parents eventually got custody

203
00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:59.919
<v Speaker 2>of Brayden and Charlie, and Josh was only allowed supervised visitations.

204
00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:03.559
<v Speaker 2>On February the fifth, twenty twelve, when the two boys

205
00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.879
<v Speaker 2>showed up for a scheduled visitation at Josh's house, he

206
00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.240
<v Speaker 2>locked their social work outside and proceeded to attack Brayden

207
00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.559
<v Speaker 2>and Charlie with a hatchet before setting off an explosion,

208
00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:17.320
<v Speaker 2>which killed both himself and his children in a murder suicide.

209
00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.799
<v Speaker 2>It goes without saying that virtually everyone believes that Josh

210
00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:23.480
<v Speaker 2>Powell murdered Susan and disposed of her body in a

211
00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.159
<v Speaker 2>desert area during the time period he said he was

212
00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:29.600
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote camping, but she has still not been found

213
00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:32.440
<v Speaker 2>to this day. Steve Powell died of a heart attack

214
00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.399
<v Speaker 2>in twenty eighteen, and since he was always suspected of

215
00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.840
<v Speaker 2>being complicit in Susan's disappearance, it's believed that when he

216
00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:42.360
<v Speaker 2>heard another Utah resident, Stephen Kosher, went missing just one

217
00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:45.840
<v Speaker 2>week later, he attempted to exploit the situation in order

218
00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:49.879
<v Speaker 2>to deflect suspicion away from himself and his son. But

219
00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:52.799
<v Speaker 2>West Valley City and Saint George are located three hundred

220
00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:55.799
<v Speaker 2>miles apart, and there's nothing to suggest that Stephen and

221
00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:58.639
<v Speaker 2>Susan ever met each other, so I think the timing

222
00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:02.080
<v Speaker 2>of their disappearances is nothing more than a coincidence. If

223
00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:04.519
<v Speaker 2>you want to learn more about Susan Powell's story, I'd

224
00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:08.159
<v Speaker 2>recommend checking out Suason, one of the long form podcast Cold.

225
00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:10.480
<v Speaker 2>But I think we can safely move away from the

226
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:12.519
<v Speaker 2>theory about these cases being connected.

227
00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:17.080
<v Speaker 3>Okay, I almost started crying when you mentioned what Josh

228
00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.159
<v Speaker 3>did to his kids. I remember this. The social workers

229
00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:24.120
<v Speaker 3>there to check on the kids. I had totally forgotten.

230
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.159
<v Speaker 3>I just thought Josh got away with it. But I

231
00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:28.759
<v Speaker 3>remember the parents go to pick up the babies from

232
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:34.519
<v Speaker 3>a custody visit and he kills them, absolutely heartbreaking. And

233
00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.279
<v Speaker 3>then for the father to still kind of double down

234
00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.039
<v Speaker 3>and continue to say that Josh had nothing to do

235
00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.320
<v Speaker 3>with it and that Susan chose to leave. That continued

236
00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:44.480
<v Speaker 3>after Josh did that.

237
00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:48.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much like they have never admitted any culpability.

238
00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:50.600
<v Speaker 2>And I know Josh had a brother who also died

239
00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:53.879
<v Speaker 2>by suicide after jumping off a high place, So there's

240
00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:57.120
<v Speaker 2>been speculation that Josh, his brother, and his father knew

241
00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.480
<v Speaker 2>exactly what happened to Susan and we're all complicit.

242
00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm going to go with that theory. Instead, what

243
00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:07.080
<v Speaker 3>a horrific, horrific tragedy. It reminds me of the documentary

244
00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.080
<v Speaker 3>Dear Zachary, where I won't tell you what happens there,

245
00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:12.600
<v Speaker 3>but if you haven't seen it, watch that. It's one

246
00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:16.720
<v Speaker 3>of the most devastating crime cases I've ever heard.

247
00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.559
<v Speaker 1>It's an incredibly well done documentary.

248
00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:21.000
<v Speaker 3>Oh so sad.

249
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Dear Zachary pretty much broke me worse than any

250
00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:26.000
<v Speaker 2>other true crime documentary I've ever seen.

251
00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:30.440
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, if you go to newspapers dot com and check

252
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.960
<v Speaker 1>the religion section of the February nineteenth, nineteen ninety nine

253
00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:37.360
<v Speaker 1>edition of the Davis County Clipper, which is where Rolf

254
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:40.720
<v Speaker 1>Kosher worked as an editor, you'll find a full page

255
00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:45.320
<v Speaker 1>outlining recent news about LDS Church missionaries, and it announces

256
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.080
<v Speaker 1>that Stephen, listed here as Elder Kosher, has been called

257
00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:52.080
<v Speaker 1>upon to serve in the Brazil South Paulo East Mission.

258
00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.159
<v Speaker 1>I always find it haunting when I see the names

259
00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.320
<v Speaker 1>of missing and murdered people listed in older news articles

260
00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.600
<v Speaker 1>which were published long with before before they became a victim.

261
00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:04.919
<v Speaker 1>At that particular point in his life, Stephen had recently

262
00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.000
<v Speaker 1>graduated high school and seemed to have a bright future

263
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.120
<v Speaker 1>ahead of him, and he probably never would have guessed

264
00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:17.080
<v Speaker 1>that just over ten years later he would be single, childless, broke, underemployed,

265
00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:21.080
<v Speaker 1>and wind up going missing. Mormonism is a religion which

266
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.799
<v Speaker 1>puts a lot of focus on getting married and starting

267
00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:27.279
<v Speaker 1>a family, and unlike his siblings, Stephen had not done

268
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:31.159
<v Speaker 1>that yet even though he just turned thirty. For this reason,

269
00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.600
<v Speaker 1>I've seen a lot of speculation in online discussions about

270
00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:37.399
<v Speaker 1>this case about how Stephen may have been a closeted

271
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.720
<v Speaker 1>gay man and made up a trip to Henderson for

272
00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:43.120
<v Speaker 1>some sort of secret gay hookup, but there's no evidence

273
00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.840
<v Speaker 1>to support this theory at all. We do know that

274
00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.679
<v Speaker 1>Stephen once had a fairly serious relationship with a woman

275
00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:53.360
<v Speaker 1>which wound up ending before they became engaged, but I'd

276
00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:56.120
<v Speaker 1>be curious to know more about his relationship with Anna

277
00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.320
<v Speaker 1>Marie Ness, as Stephen took a lengthy trip to her

278
00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:03.480
<v Speaker 1>family's ran three days before he vanished. All we know

279
00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:05.919
<v Speaker 1>is that Stephen first met her as part of an

280
00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.399
<v Speaker 1>activity for his LDS Singles Ward, But even though they

281
00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.279
<v Speaker 1>dated and Stephen seemed to enjoy Anne Marie's company, their

282
00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:17.600
<v Speaker 1>relationship never developed into anything serious, so it really makes

283
00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:21.440
<v Speaker 1>me wonder why he felt inclined to drive three hundred

284
00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:24.639
<v Speaker 1>and sixty miles to Ruby Valley, Nevada in order to

285
00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:28.080
<v Speaker 1>show up at her family's ranch unannounced. We'll talk more

286
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.440
<v Speaker 1>about this whole road trip momentarily, but I've always wondered

287
00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:35.120
<v Speaker 1>was Stephen hoping to rekindle his romance with Anne Marie

288
00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:37.919
<v Speaker 1>and drove up there for the express purpose of seeing her,

289
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:41.639
<v Speaker 1>Or did Stephen make this lengthy trip for completely different

290
00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.279
<v Speaker 1>reasons and only decided to pay the Neft family a

291
00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:48.240
<v Speaker 1>visit because he just happened to be in the area.

292
00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:51.240
<v Speaker 3>So there's a lot in this section when you look

293
00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:53.159
<v Speaker 3>at the idea of could he have been a caloset

294
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.279
<v Speaker 3>gay man, I think it's possible. I mean, if you

295
00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:59.759
<v Speaker 3>think about any kind of deeply religious and faithful person,

296
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:05.679
<v Speaker 3>Catholic Church, just the Christian faith, even Jewish families and

297
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.759
<v Speaker 3>Mormon families, you know, yeah, being gay is not one

298
00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:14.279
<v Speaker 3>of the top morals that they're holding out for somebody

299
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.720
<v Speaker 3>to celebrate. So I could see that being the cause.

300
00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:20.799
<v Speaker 3>But I could also see that he's truly just one

301
00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:25.120
<v Speaker 3>of these people that is devoted to faith, devoted to work,

302
00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.840
<v Speaker 3>lost his job continues to be active in church, but

303
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.159
<v Speaker 3>just hasn't been aligned with the right person. I mean,

304
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.159
<v Speaker 3>thirty is young, not in the Mormon faith and looking

305
00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.399
<v Speaker 3>at not being married, but it is still young. So

306
00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.200
<v Speaker 3>I could see something like Anna Marie and saying, hey,

307
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.159
<v Speaker 3>you know what, I'm thirty, I'm getting older. I don't

308
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:47.840
<v Speaker 3>like this singles word mess because I'm not being matched

309
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.039
<v Speaker 3>with anybody. I don't feel it connections with anyone. But

310
00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:54.440
<v Speaker 3>I do care about Anne Marie. But my question becomes,

311
00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:57.440
<v Speaker 3>wouldn't he have made sure she was home because it

312
00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:01.279
<v Speaker 3>was just her parents right when he got there.

313
00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:05.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much like he just stopped by unannounced, without

314
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.240
<v Speaker 2>being invited, and say hey, can I see Anne Marie

315
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:09.799
<v Speaker 2>and was told, oh, she's out today. So I'm thinking

316
00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:11.880
<v Speaker 2>that if it was really really important, that if he

317
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:14.720
<v Speaker 2>was serious about rekindling a relationship with her, he should

318
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.039
<v Speaker 2>have called first before making this lengthy trip. So that's

319
00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.039
<v Speaker 2>why I've always suspected that he was there for other reasons,

320
00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:23.839
<v Speaker 2>and it's just by pure chance he decided to stop

321
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:25.799
<v Speaker 2>by and see the nefts because he happened to be

322
00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:26.359
<v Speaker 2>in the area.

323
00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, either that or he had this idea that there

324
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:30.799
<v Speaker 3>was going to be some kind of grand gesture. But

325
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:32.599
<v Speaker 3>if there was, I feel like there would have been

326
00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:34.599
<v Speaker 3>a bigger emphasis of that. The family would have said

327
00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:37.039
<v Speaker 3>he was desperate to see our daughter. He kept asking

328
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:39.440
<v Speaker 3>when she'd be home. He asked if he could stay

329
00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.680
<v Speaker 3>for the evening until she got home, and that didn't happen.

330
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:44.799
<v Speaker 1>And you think if it was a grand gester, that

331
00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.079
<v Speaker 1>he might have called the parents beforehand and said, Hey,

332
00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.079
<v Speaker 1>I want to surprise Anne Marie. Is she going to

333
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.039
<v Speaker 1>be home? Rather than calling her directly. You'd think that

334
00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.400
<v Speaker 1>he would do something in order to make sure that

335
00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:58.839
<v Speaker 1>she would be around, because it's a lot of output

336
00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:02.319
<v Speaker 1>of effort and financially as well, because he's got to

337
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:05.839
<v Speaker 1>drive a great distance to not see Anne Marie. If

338
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:07.680
<v Speaker 1>that was his express purpose.

339
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:11.079
<v Speaker 2>And I'm wondering if maybe he felt more motivated, like

340
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.640
<v Speaker 2>if there were theories going around that maybe he suddenly

341
00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:16.039
<v Speaker 2>came into some money because he was offered work. So

342
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.799
<v Speaker 2>he's thinking to himself, Hey, I'm now guiding some income,

343
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm digging myself out of a hole. Maybe I'm feeling

344
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:23.960
<v Speaker 2>more worthy now that Anne Marie would want something to

345
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:25.920
<v Speaker 2>do with me. So when I go to the area,

346
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:27.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to see her, and if she happens to

347
00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:31.119
<v Speaker 2>be around, maybe we'll explore the possibility of starting to

348
00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:35.640
<v Speaker 2>starting to date again. So in addition to the social

349
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.759
<v Speaker 2>pressures of starting a family, it definitely sounds like Stephen

350
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.680
<v Speaker 2>was facing huge pressure to find steady employment and a

351
00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.319
<v Speaker 2>steady income. Obviously, since this was one year removed from

352
00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.359
<v Speaker 2>the Great Recession, Stephen was far from the only person

353
00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.599
<v Speaker 2>in America who was facing these struggles. But given how

354
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.839
<v Speaker 2>unwilling he was to accept financial assistance from his family,

355
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:56.920
<v Speaker 2>you get the sense that he may have felt like

356
00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.079
<v Speaker 2>a failure. And while he supposedly did not show any

357
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.400
<v Speaker 2>outward signs of being suicidal, stephens struggles could have given

358
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.960
<v Speaker 2>him a potential motivation to end his own life. Yes,

359
00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:08.960
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't make much sense for him to drive one

360
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.440
<v Speaker 2>hundred and thirty miles to another state in order to

361
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:15.519
<v Speaker 2>kill himself, but we've seen examples like the Gael Delano

362
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:19.200
<v Speaker 2>case from unsolved Mysteries where suicidal people have done that

363
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:22.279
<v Speaker 2>very thing. So if Stephen decided to wander out into

364
00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.640
<v Speaker 2>the Nevada desert, perhaps his body has just never been found.

365
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.759
<v Speaker 2>In spite of his precarious position. Stephen was also described

366
00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.880
<v Speaker 2>as having no obvious signs of depression. But I find

367
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:36.240
<v Speaker 2>it interesting how eight months before he vanished, he made

368
00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:39.480
<v Speaker 2>the decision to relocate from Salt Lake City to Saint George,

369
00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:43.720
<v Speaker 2>apparently because he couldnot stand the cold Salt Lake City winters.

370
00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:46.920
<v Speaker 2>This took him three hundred miles away from his family,

371
00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:48.880
<v Speaker 2>so I have to wonder if there might be more

372
00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.559
<v Speaker 2>reasons for this decision. Perhaps he was suffering from an

373
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:57.039
<v Speaker 2>undiagnosed case of seasonal effective disorder, which causes depression to

374
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.000
<v Speaker 2>hit during the fall and winter months before its subsides

375
00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.599
<v Speaker 2>in the spring and summer months. If Stephen found himself

376
00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:06.920
<v Speaker 2>feeling very down during the cold Salt Lake City winters,

377
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:09.480
<v Speaker 2>that would shed some light on his decision to move

378
00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:13.279
<v Speaker 2>south to a city located near the Nevada and Arizona borders,

379
00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:16.200
<v Speaker 2>which had a much warmer climate. But I think it

380
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:18.359
<v Speaker 2>was just Stephen's bad luck that he was laid off

381
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:21.440
<v Speaker 2>only one month after his relocation, and he was now

382
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.759
<v Speaker 2>residing in a city where the job market was poor,

383
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.519
<v Speaker 2>and he likely had too much pride to move back home.

384
00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.720
<v Speaker 2>You could assume that Stephen may have decided to move

385
00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:32.440
<v Speaker 2>so far away from his family because he felt trapped

386
00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.400
<v Speaker 2>in an oppressive religion. But it sounds like Stephen took

387
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.720
<v Speaker 2>his faith very seriously, which is why he've remained heavily

388
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.880
<v Speaker 2>involved in LDS activities in Saint George. I really do

389
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.519
<v Speaker 2>get the impression that Stephen was close with his family,

390
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.200
<v Speaker 2>and during their interviews on the Disappeared episode, Rolf and

391
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Dann Kosher come across as loving parents and genuinely nice people,

392
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:55.759
<v Speaker 2>which is why I've always found it hard to believe

393
00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:00.480
<v Speaker 2>that Stephen disappeared voluntarily. It's really heartbreaking today see Rolf

394
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.880
<v Speaker 2>get emotional and cry a few times during his Disappeared interview,

395
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.839
<v Speaker 2>knowing that he would pass away only a few weeks

396
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.880
<v Speaker 2>after his interview was filmed, and he was already deceased

397
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:13.000
<v Speaker 2>by the time the episode aired. I think the fact

398
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.480
<v Speaker 2>that Stephen did not even resurf as following the death

399
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.640
<v Speaker 2>of his father is a pretty strong indicator that he's

400
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:20.279
<v Speaker 2>no longer with us unfortunately.

401
00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and what's interesting too, is is that in the

402
00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:26.319
<v Speaker 3>LDS church, I think when you move and you're trying

403
00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:28.440
<v Speaker 3>to find a new place to go, one of the

404
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.960
<v Speaker 3>important factors is where is the next ward of our church?

405
00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:37.440
<v Speaker 3>And oftentimes those people are responsible for and welcoming to

406
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.200
<v Speaker 3>help you get settled in your new place. They're there

407
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:41.920
<v Speaker 3>to help you meet people, they're there to help you

408
00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.960
<v Speaker 3>look for jobs. So it really is an instant community

409
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:47.480
<v Speaker 3>that he would have been moving to. Like you said, yes,

410
00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:50.000
<v Speaker 3>if he was struggling and he needed to go back home,

411
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:52.599
<v Speaker 3>I think he would have known he could. I would

412
00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.359
<v Speaker 3>also imagine a thirty year old man saying like, oh,

413
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:57.519
<v Speaker 3>come on, I'm going to try to make it, and

414
00:21:57.559 --> 00:21:59.039
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to try to push through this. But he

415
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.359
<v Speaker 3>would not have been a lot. Remember, he was involved

416
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.440
<v Speaker 3>in multiple things in his church, and so I think

417
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:06.759
<v Speaker 3>he would have had his own little community there as well.

418
00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.440
<v Speaker 3>And he had plans and he was even making actions

419
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.000
<v Speaker 3>towards those plans to go home for Christmas. There were,

420
00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.880
<v Speaker 3>if I recall correctly, Christmas presents in the back of

421
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.599
<v Speaker 3>his seat for his nieces and nephews, and so he

422
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:23.000
<v Speaker 3>had intent to go home. He had intent to follow

423
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.960
<v Speaker 3>through with his word to reconnect with family for the holidays,

424
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.839
<v Speaker 3>and he never made it. And so again I think

425
00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:33.160
<v Speaker 3>had he wanted to complete suicide, someone in that church

426
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:35.960
<v Speaker 3>or his family would have gotten some kind of communication

427
00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:39.160
<v Speaker 3>about I'm sorry. I had to do this. But here's why,

428
00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:42.400
<v Speaker 3>because I think his faith truly drove him. Whether he

429
00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:44.759
<v Speaker 3>was at conflict because of sexuality, whether he was in

430
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.160
<v Speaker 3>depression because of money, whatever it was, I still think

431
00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:52.200
<v Speaker 3>he would have wanted an earthly representation of what his

432
00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:55.599
<v Speaker 3>desire was for his heavenly body. And so I don't know.

433
00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:57.480
<v Speaker 3>I just I'm really stuck on that idea that he

434
00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.240
<v Speaker 3>just walked away. I don't think he was a kind

435
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:01.119
<v Speaker 3>of person to do that.

436
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.000
<v Speaker 1>I agree with you, I don't think that he was.

437
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.519
<v Speaker 1>But I do think that there is possibly another side

438
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.200
<v Speaker 1>to that, given that the Mormon faith puts so much

439
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:17.480
<v Speaker 1>emphasis on family. Getting married and Stephen was neither married

440
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.359
<v Speaker 1>nor employed, and earning a good income so that you

441
00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:23.640
<v Speaker 1>can support your family is an important part of Mormonism

442
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.160
<v Speaker 1>as well. And we do know something about Stephen. We

443
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:29.839
<v Speaker 1>do know that there is an element of pride there

444
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:33.440
<v Speaker 1>because he was offered money by his family, he didn't

445
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.119
<v Speaker 1>take it. His grandmother had written him a check and

446
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:40.039
<v Speaker 1>he refused to cash it. So part of him doesn't

447
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:43.440
<v Speaker 1>want to be seen as not being able to support himself.

448
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:48.279
<v Speaker 1>So if it was the case and there was pride involved,

449
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:50.640
<v Speaker 1>like in the situation, with not taking the help from

450
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:53.839
<v Speaker 1>your family. I could see a scenario where there is

451
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:56.759
<v Speaker 1>a potential that he might not have wanted to say

452
00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:01.000
<v Speaker 1>or give answers as to why, and he may have

453
00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:04.599
<v Speaker 1>had his own relationship with God and may have reconciled

454
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:09.160
<v Speaker 1>how he chose to leave the earthly plane, and explaining

455
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.319
<v Speaker 1>to other people might not have been part of that plan.

456
00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:13.839
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying I believe that's what happened. I could

457
00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:16.079
<v Speaker 1>just see a scenario where that is possible.

458
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:19.079
<v Speaker 3>I could see that, or it even left a door

459
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:21.440
<v Speaker 3>open for him to say, like maybe I wandered off

460
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:23.400
<v Speaker 3>you Like, I don't want them to know the sin

461
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.839
<v Speaker 3>of what I just did abo sin quote unquote. I

462
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:29.160
<v Speaker 3>want them to think maybe I was hurt, or maybe

463
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:31.720
<v Speaker 3>I disappeared, or you know, I want to leave a

464
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:34.839
<v Speaker 3>question mark so that they don't know that I completed

465
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:38.759
<v Speaker 3>the ultimate you know, wrong, and then it's not one

466
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.319
<v Speaker 3>more shame upon my family. Maybe I could see that,

467
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:43.359
<v Speaker 3>but I'm leaning more towards the other. But that's a

468
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:44.480
<v Speaker 3>really good point.

469
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:48.440
<v Speaker 1>Due to Steven's financial issues, the most logical theory for

470
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.119
<v Speaker 1>his trip to Henderson is that he was seeking some

471
00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:54.559
<v Speaker 1>sort of employment opportunity. Or at the very least something

472
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.119
<v Speaker 1>that could earn him some money. But even if that

473
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.759
<v Speaker 1>was the case, that still doesn't explain why Stephen made

474
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:04.279
<v Speaker 1>those two other unexplained road trips through Nevada on December

475
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.799
<v Speaker 1>tenth and twelfth. So, according to Diane, this sort of

476
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:11.079
<v Speaker 1>thing wasn't all that unusual for Stephen, as one of

477
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:13.759
<v Speaker 1>the reasons he moved to Saint George was to research

478
00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.559
<v Speaker 1>his family history in the area, and he often went

479
00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:20.599
<v Speaker 1>on tours of cemeteries looking for ancestors graves. Stephen was

480
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:24.200
<v Speaker 1>known for being a spontaneous person, so Dian theorized that

481
00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:26.400
<v Speaker 1>her son could have made these trips in order to

482
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.079
<v Speaker 1>keep himself busy while he was underemployed.

483
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:30.200
<v Speaker 2>Well.

484
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:32.920
<v Speaker 1>I can understand the logic in that, but the problem

485
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:36.519
<v Speaker 1>is that these road trips can be expensive, as Stephen

486
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:39.680
<v Speaker 1>has had to stop and pay for gas multiple times,

487
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.599
<v Speaker 1>even though he was pretty much broke and three months

488
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.480
<v Speaker 1>behind on his rent. I guess one possible explanation is

489
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:49.839
<v Speaker 1>that if Stephen was feeling suicidal and had already made

490
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:52.480
<v Speaker 1>plans to end his own life, he could have decided

491
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:55.240
<v Speaker 1>to spend his last days driving around in order to

492
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:58.359
<v Speaker 1>see some sites with little consideration to how it would

493
00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:02.240
<v Speaker 1>affect his finances. But the main hole in that theory

494
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.400
<v Speaker 1>is that Stephen purchased Christmas gifts for his brother and

495
00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:09.279
<v Speaker 1>newborn child, which suggests that at the very least, he

496
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:11.640
<v Speaker 1>was planning to visit his family for the holidays, like

497
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:12.359
<v Speaker 1>you promised.

498
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly. The way we talked about this earlier is

499
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.799
<v Speaker 3>that we know that finances were not something that were

500
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.680
<v Speaker 3>going well for him, and so maybe it is something

501
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:24.119
<v Speaker 3>where he was being spontaneous and he thought, you know what,

502
00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:26.880
<v Speaker 3>this is all very temporary. I'm going to travel, I'm

503
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.359
<v Speaker 3>going to enjoy myself. Life is short, and the money's

504
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.160
<v Speaker 3>going to come. Maybe he had a credit card he

505
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.160
<v Speaker 3>was putting it on. Maybe he had a savings account

506
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.839
<v Speaker 3>we didn't know about. Who knows, Or he was doing

507
00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:45.119
<v Speaker 3>something more nefarious or something that was behind closed doors

508
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.160
<v Speaker 3>where he was getting money. But in the idea, we

509
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:51.319
<v Speaker 3>do see that Stephen is spending money. He has money

510
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:54.920
<v Speaker 3>from somewhere, and that idea, like you said, the Christmas

511
00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:59.599
<v Speaker 3>gifts for those for the baby, that's a so special

512
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.440
<v Speaker 3>I remember remember you my brother for Teddy's first birthday

513
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:05.279
<v Speaker 3>and Teddy's first Christmas. He doesn't have children, and so

514
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.359
<v Speaker 3>to give my baby presents, it was really important that

515
00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:11.559
<v Speaker 3>he got to be a part of that holiday celebration.

516
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:15.920
<v Speaker 3>And so I really see Stevens purchasing those Christmas gifts

517
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.200
<v Speaker 3>as one of the biggest signs that he had an

518
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:19.240
<v Speaker 3>intent to go home.

519
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:22.240
<v Speaker 2>That is true. I mean, they weren't exactly expensive gifts,

520
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:24.640
<v Speaker 2>but even if he got paid something to do some

521
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:26.720
<v Speaker 2>extra work that we don't know about, he might have

522
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:29.720
<v Speaker 2>felt motivated saying, hey, I can actually afford Christmas gifts

523
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:33.160
<v Speaker 2>for my brother and my newborn nephew this year, and

524
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:35.599
<v Speaker 2>that's why he decided to purchase them. And I still

525
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:37.519
<v Speaker 2>take that as a sign that he wasn't planning to

526
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:39.640
<v Speaker 2>end his own life, that he had every intention of

527
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:42.559
<v Speaker 2>showing up to Salt Lake City to spend Christmas with

528
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:46.920
<v Speaker 2>his family. However, let's look at the timeline for Steven's

529
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.680
<v Speaker 2>road trip on December of the tenth, which was very odd.

530
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:53.640
<v Speaker 2>His first confirmed transaction was purchasing gas in Salt Lake

531
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.599
<v Speaker 2>City at six forty five am Mountain time, which is

532
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.319
<v Speaker 2>nearly a four and a half hour drive from Saint George.

533
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:01.839
<v Speaker 2>This means the latest that Stephen could have left his

534
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:05.480
<v Speaker 2>home was shortly after two am, meaning that he completed

535
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:09.000
<v Speaker 2>an eleven hundred mile drive on little, possibly no sleep,

536
00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:12.440
<v Speaker 2>and the timeline throughout the day doesn't leave much opportunity

537
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.279
<v Speaker 2>for him to pull over and take a nap. So

538
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:17.240
<v Speaker 2>could this mean that Stephen was not in his right

539
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:20.000
<v Speaker 2>state of mind at the time. You also have to

540
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:22.559
<v Speaker 2>wonder if there's a specific reason why he traveled to

541
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:25.359
<v Speaker 2>Salt Lake City, because he then drove west from there

542
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.759
<v Speaker 2>to the Neft's ranch in Ruby Valley. If visiting the

543
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:31.720
<v Speaker 2>Nests was the primary purpose of his trip, he could

544
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:34.480
<v Speaker 2>have just driven straight from Saint George to Ruby Valley,

545
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:37.440
<v Speaker 2>as making that detour to Salt Lake City added an

546
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:40.880
<v Speaker 2>extra few hours to his journey. And we mentioned earlier

547
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:43.799
<v Speaker 2>that if Stephen really wanted to see am Ree, why

548
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:45.960
<v Speaker 2>not call ahead to make sure she would be there

549
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.240
<v Speaker 2>that day before making the drive. So it makes you

550
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:51.759
<v Speaker 2>wonder if Stephen had another reason for traveling to the

551
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:55.200
<v Speaker 2>Ruby Valley area and made a spontaneous decision to visit

552
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.599
<v Speaker 2>the ranch because he just happened to be there. Another

553
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:00.920
<v Speaker 2>odd detail is that Steve he even told the Nefts

554
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:04.119
<v Speaker 2>he was planning to travel to Sacramento to visit family

555
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:06.599
<v Speaker 2>and friends, even though it does not sound like he

556
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:09.759
<v Speaker 2>knew anyone there. Since it takes around seven and a

557
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:13.240
<v Speaker 2>half hours to drive from Ruby Valley to Sacramento, there's

558
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:15.880
<v Speaker 2>no way Stephen could have gone there that day, So

559
00:29:16.119 --> 00:29:19.000
<v Speaker 2>why did he bring it up? And once again after

560
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:21.880
<v Speaker 2>leaving Ruby Valley? I'm not sure why Stephen took a

561
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:25.000
<v Speaker 2>winding route and drove back to Salt Lake City because

562
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.920
<v Speaker 2>if he had just traveled southeast directly to Saint George,

563
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:29.960
<v Speaker 2>he would have arrived home a lot quicker.

564
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:32.480
<v Speaker 3>Do we know at the time, I mean this is

565
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.480
<v Speaker 3>two thousands, so did he have a he had a

566
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:38.640
<v Speaker 3>cell phone? Do we know who he was in contact with?

567
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:42.880
<v Speaker 3>And were their credit card receipts showing where? You know,

568
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:46.319
<v Speaker 3>tracking where he had been, who he could have been with,

569
00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:48.759
<v Speaker 3>restaurants he might have eaten at. Do we have all

570
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:51.720
<v Speaker 3>that information leading up to his disappearance? I know we

571
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:54.640
<v Speaker 3>see him parkis car and wander off, But other than that,

572
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.440
<v Speaker 3>do we have many details of putting him in certain

573
00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:58.680
<v Speaker 3>specific locations.

574
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's pretty much how we can follow his movements

575
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:03.640
<v Speaker 2>is because he used his credit card in his bank

576
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.920
<v Speaker 2>card to purchase gasoline and purchase food at various locations.

577
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.200
<v Speaker 2>We just don't know why he drove to these locations.

578
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:13.200
<v Speaker 2>And they did check his cell records and there was

579
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:16.359
<v Speaker 2>like nothing out of the ordinary. Like as you recall

580
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:19.200
<v Speaker 2>in our last episode, he received phone calls from both

581
00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:22.400
<v Speaker 2>his sister and his mother while he was driving and

582
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:24.400
<v Speaker 2>did not tell them he was driving at the time.

583
00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:26.759
<v Speaker 2>They had no idea that he was in Nevada when

584
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.400
<v Speaker 2>he was receiving their calls. But they didn't show any

585
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.240
<v Speaker 2>outgoing calls from his cell phone. The shit any light

586
00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:35.480
<v Speaker 2>on why he was making this trip. And as we're

587
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:37.720
<v Speaker 2>going to talk about, there has been speculation that if

588
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.119
<v Speaker 2>he was doing something nefarious, maybe he could have had

589
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:41.799
<v Speaker 2>a burner phone or something like that.

590
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:44.160
<v Speaker 3>I was just about to ask that I was going

591
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:46.240
<v Speaker 3>to say, when they searched the car, I don't recall

592
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:48.480
<v Speaker 3>them finding one, But that doesn't mean when he walked

593
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.519
<v Speaker 3>away with that quote briefcase or file folder that maybe

594
00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:54.319
<v Speaker 3>he didn't have a burner phone on him.

595
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:57.240
<v Speaker 2>That is correct. Yeah, they didn't find one in his car,

596
00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:01.400
<v Speaker 2>but that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't carrying one.

597
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:05.079
<v Speaker 1>So it sounds like December eleventh was a routine day

598
00:31:05.079 --> 00:31:08.079
<v Speaker 1>for Stephen but his road trip through Nevada on the

599
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:11.279
<v Speaker 1>twelfth had a lot more gaps than the timeline, and

600
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.400
<v Speaker 1>since there are no eye witnesses who reported interacting with

601
00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:17.599
<v Speaker 1>Stephen that day, we have no idea what he was doing.

602
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:20.480
<v Speaker 1>We only know that his cell phone pinged off a

603
00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:24.759
<v Speaker 1>tower near Overton at eight nineteen am Pacific time, and

604
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.599
<v Speaker 1>he purchased gas in Mesquite at four or four pm

605
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:31.759
<v Speaker 1>Pacific time. But those places are only about forty miles apart.

606
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:34.759
<v Speaker 1>So where was Stephen during that nearly eight hour gap.

607
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:38.759
<v Speaker 1>He probably wasn't driving the entire time, because otherwise he

608
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:41.799
<v Speaker 1>would have needed to stop for fuel. Again, he made

609
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:44.519
<v Speaker 1>his purchase at the kmart near Saint George at seven

610
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:47.880
<v Speaker 1>fifty eight pm Mountain time, even though driving there from

611
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:51.200
<v Speaker 1>Mesquite would only take about forty five minutes. So there's

612
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:54.759
<v Speaker 1>another gap of time in which Stephen's whereabouts are unaccounted for,

613
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:58.119
<v Speaker 1>and you have to wonder if this influenced his decision

614
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.880
<v Speaker 1>to travel to Henderson. I have to say these trips

615
00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:04.920
<v Speaker 1>are giving me flashbacks to the unsolved nineteen ninety four

616
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:08.720
<v Speaker 1>disappearance of twenty three year old Karen Denise Wells, which

617
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:10.920
<v Speaker 1>was covered on both the trail went cold and the

618
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.319
<v Speaker 1>path went chili. As a quick recap, Denise left her

619
00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:17.680
<v Speaker 1>hometown in Oklahoma on a cross country road trip to

620
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.319
<v Speaker 1>visit a friend in New Jersey, but she wound up

621
00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:23.559
<v Speaker 1>going missing, and her abandoned rental car was discovered in

622
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.720
<v Speaker 1>rural Pennsylvania. A check of Denise's movements, as well as

623
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:31.720
<v Speaker 1>the odometer of the vehicle showed that she inexplicably drove

624
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:34.880
<v Speaker 1>an additional seven hundred miles on her trip, which were

625
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:38.680
<v Speaker 1>never accounted for. So it's been speculated that she may

626
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:42.559
<v Speaker 1>have become involved in drug trafficking and this caused her disappearance.

627
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.400
<v Speaker 1>Not surprisingly, it's been theorized that Stephen's lengthy road trips

628
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:51.039
<v Speaker 1>may have been connected to drug trafficking as well. Even

629
00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:54.160
<v Speaker 1>though he was known for being a morally upstanding individual

630
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.519
<v Speaker 1>and unlikely candidate to participate in anything illegal, he was

631
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:02.440
<v Speaker 1>also in a desperate financial situation. So could he have

632
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:05.119
<v Speaker 1>been roped into doing something he ordinarily wouldn't have?

633
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:08.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, I think, of course. I think a lot

634
00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:11.200
<v Speaker 3>of people could, especially when you feel desperate or hopeless,

635
00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:12.720
<v Speaker 3>or you're trying to say, hey, if I could just

636
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.920
<v Speaker 3>get ahead, then these other things would be easier in

637
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.079
<v Speaker 3>my life. Right, I don't have to do this long term,

638
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:20.920
<v Speaker 3>but if I can get financially stable, getting a wife,

639
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.119
<v Speaker 3>having a family, you know, making my family really proud

640
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.039
<v Speaker 3>of me, those things are going to come more naturally

641
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:29.519
<v Speaker 3>and easier. It doesn't have to necessarily just be drugs either.

642
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:32.799
<v Speaker 3>It could have been something like sex work. It could

643
00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:36.480
<v Speaker 3>have been something like a financial pyramid scheme or some

644
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:41.440
<v Speaker 3>kind of you know, quote business that he had been

645
00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:44.160
<v Speaker 3>talked into by somebody, and he's going to try to

646
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:48.559
<v Speaker 3>meet with people or plan some kind of of I

647
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.359
<v Speaker 3>don't know, crooked kind of scheme with people. That's probably

648
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:54.319
<v Speaker 3>less likely because of the financial crash, no one had

649
00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:57.000
<v Speaker 3>money to be sparing. But I mean, it could have

650
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.079
<v Speaker 3>been something that we're not even thinking of, like a

651
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:01.640
<v Speaker 3>odd business his action where he's trying to go recruit

652
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:05.759
<v Speaker 3>people or get customers in on something that's not necessarily

653
00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:06.519
<v Speaker 3>on the up and up.

654
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:08.599
<v Speaker 2>And it could be something where he wasn't even aware

655
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.039
<v Speaker 2>he was doing anything illegal. He's just told I need

656
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:13.599
<v Speaker 2>you to deliver this package to such and such a place,

657
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:16.039
<v Speaker 2>but he's not told what's actually in the package.

658
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:18.800
<v Speaker 1>And I think that our morals and values guide us

659
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:22.840
<v Speaker 1>for the most part under ideal circumstances, but when people

660
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:26.119
<v Speaker 1>become desperate and they're in a situation where it feels

661
00:34:26.119 --> 00:34:28.400
<v Speaker 1>like there's no way out, I think that we are

662
00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:31.440
<v Speaker 1>all capable of doing things that are outside of scope

663
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:32.599
<v Speaker 1>of our normal behavior.

664
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.360
<v Speaker 2>And what makes Stephen's trip to Henderson even murkier is

665
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:39.760
<v Speaker 2>that we have the account from his neighbor that he

666
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:43.039
<v Speaker 2>saw Steven's car parked outside his residence to Saint George

667
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:45.960
<v Speaker 2>at around ten pm on December the twelfth, but it

668
00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:49.719
<v Speaker 2>was gone a half hour later. The next confirmed sighting

669
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:51.719
<v Speaker 2>of Stephen is when he spoke to Greg Webb on

670
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.519
<v Speaker 2>the phone the following morning at seven fifty two am

671
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Pacific time and said he was in the Las Vegas area.

672
00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:00.360
<v Speaker 2>So after his neighbor noticed the missing car at ten

673
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:03.440
<v Speaker 2>thirty pm the previous evening, did Stephen return to his

674
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:06.679
<v Speaker 2>residence at any point before he drove to Vegas or

675
00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:09.519
<v Speaker 2>did Stephen spend the night at an altogether different location.

676
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.000
<v Speaker 2>The fact that a blanket and pillow were found inside

677
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:15.960
<v Speaker 2>the abandoned cavalier suggests that he may have slept there

678
00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:19.920
<v Speaker 2>when Stephen arrived in the Sun City, Anthem neighborhood in Henderson.

679
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.119
<v Speaker 2>He was last seen passing by the security camera exactly

680
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:25.400
<v Speaker 2>at noon, which means that he may have had an

681
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.159
<v Speaker 2>appointment at one of the houses at a specific time.

682
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:31.519
<v Speaker 2>But here's the big issue with that theory. When Greg

683
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:33.920
<v Speaker 2>Webb called Stephen, he said that he might not make

684
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.840
<v Speaker 2>it back in time for the Singles Wards morning service

685
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:39.519
<v Speaker 2>and asked Stephen to fill in for him, even though

686
00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Stephen said he was in Vegas. He told Webb that

687
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.079
<v Speaker 2>he would be willing to return to Saint George to

688
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.679
<v Speaker 2>do the service until Webb told him not to bother. So,

689
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.719
<v Speaker 2>if Stephen had a scheduled appointment in Henderson that day,

690
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:54.159
<v Speaker 2>why would he offer to go back home. Even though

691
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:56.880
<v Speaker 2>there's no indication that Stephen was a gambler, I guess

692
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.440
<v Speaker 2>he could have become desperate enough to travel to Vegas

693
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:02.239
<v Speaker 2>to attend have to win some money. I'm not sure

694
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:05.079
<v Speaker 2>if law enforcement attempted to check the security footage at

695
00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:07.840
<v Speaker 2>any of the casinos to see if Steven ever showed

696
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.519
<v Speaker 2>up to one, But even if he went there to gamble,

697
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:13.559
<v Speaker 2>that still doesn't explain why he went to Henderson, and

698
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:16.519
<v Speaker 2>we don't know anything about Stephen's possible movements in the

699
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Vegas area that morning.

700
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:21.360
<v Speaker 3>That's so interesting. So we know for a fact he

701
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:23.719
<v Speaker 3>was not tied there, or he knew that he was

702
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.719
<v Speaker 3>going to be easily mobile and could have gone back

703
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.280
<v Speaker 3>for the wards morning service. And then he says, you know,

704
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.280
<v Speaker 3>he's told, hey, don't bother, don't worry about you, don't

705
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:35.039
<v Speaker 3>have to come. But he was very willing and quickly

706
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:39.440
<v Speaker 3>wanted to go serve his church. And so whatever he

707
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.119
<v Speaker 3>was doing and whatever the plan was, isn't something where

708
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:43.880
<v Speaker 3>he thought like, well, my life is on the line

709
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:46.320
<v Speaker 3>if I don't stay put where I am, or this

710
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:49.159
<v Speaker 3>is going to put me in significant risk. He knew that, hey,

711
00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:51.000
<v Speaker 3>if I need to, I can drop what I'm doing

712
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:53.960
<v Speaker 3>right the second and go home. So that makes me

713
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:58.119
<v Speaker 3>kind of question a drug involvement unless he knew it

714
00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:01.239
<v Speaker 3>was a very quick drop off, because because you have

715
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:03.000
<v Speaker 3>this plan on this route, you need to go make

716
00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:06.079
<v Speaker 3>all these drops that you couldn't guarantee someone not involved

717
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:09.119
<v Speaker 3>in that operation you can easily just pivot and come home.

718
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's just a very strange situation. And I have

719
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.320
<v Speaker 2>a hard time wrapping my head about Steven's agreement to

720
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.280
<v Speaker 2>do that because it could be a thing where he

721
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:20.679
<v Speaker 2>was scheduled to make a delivery to Las Vegas or Henderson,

722
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:22.960
<v Speaker 2>but he didn't have to show up at a specific time,

723
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:25.679
<v Speaker 2>but still having to turn round and go back to

724
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:28.119
<v Speaker 2>Saint George to do the morning service. That's going to

725
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:31.119
<v Speaker 2>cause a significant delay. And it makes me wonder if

726
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:33.079
<v Speaker 2>he had done that, would he have gone back to

727
00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:34.840
<v Speaker 2>Henderson later that same day.

728
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:39.280
<v Speaker 1>Now, even though it's generally accepted that Stephen was the

729
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:42.679
<v Speaker 1>man captured walking down the sidewalk in sun City Anthem,

730
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:46.079
<v Speaker 1>I have to acknowledge that the footage is blurry and

731
00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:49.000
<v Speaker 1>shot from such a long distance away that you really

732
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:51.519
<v Speaker 1>can't tell with one hundred percent certainty that it's him.

733
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:55.039
<v Speaker 1>I know that Stephen's family have studied the footage and

734
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:57.840
<v Speaker 1>are pretty sure it's him due to the way he walks,

735
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:01.039
<v Speaker 1>in his body language, but fear about it. Could something

736
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:04.119
<v Speaker 1>have happened to Stephen beforehand, and another man decided to

737
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:06.760
<v Speaker 1>abandon his car in the neighborhood and walk away from

738
00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:09.800
<v Speaker 1>the scene. Alkham's razor tells me that it is Stephen,

739
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:13.320
<v Speaker 1>as the consensus from the private investigators working on this

740
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:16.639
<v Speaker 1>case is something bad happened to him. Only minutes after

741
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:19.159
<v Speaker 1>he walked past that camera, and he never left the

742
00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:22.639
<v Speaker 1>neighborhood alive. Of course, even though there are no more

743
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:26.239
<v Speaker 1>confirmed sightings of Stephen, his cell phone pinged off various

744
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:30.639
<v Speaker 1>towers located outside the neighborhood in the days following his disappearance,

745
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:34.440
<v Speaker 1>and someone checked the phone's voicemail two days after the fact,

746
00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:37.559
<v Speaker 1>even though there's nothing to indicate that Stephen was still

747
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:41.480
<v Speaker 1>alive at that point. So if Stephen was dead, either

748
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:44.400
<v Speaker 1>the perpetrator kept his phone in their possession or the

749
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:47.679
<v Speaker 1>phone was kept alongside Stephen's body, and these pings might

750
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:51.199
<v Speaker 1>provide a clue about the area where he's buried. While

751
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.880
<v Speaker 1>we're on the subject of Stephen's cell phone, all the

752
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:57.000
<v Speaker 1>calls on his phone records had been accounted for and

753
00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:59.960
<v Speaker 1>offer no insight into why he would have traveled the Henderson.

754
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:04.159
<v Speaker 1>Steven's laptop and email account also turned up no leads,

755
00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:07.840
<v Speaker 1>but it's worth reiterating that all of his Internet activity

756
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:11.519
<v Speaker 1>took place on computers at the library. So if Stephen

757
00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:14.519
<v Speaker 1>had a meetup or an appointment for an employment opportunity

758
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:18.119
<v Speaker 1>scheduled in Henderson, perhaps all of his communication was done

759
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:22.320
<v Speaker 1>on the library computers. Through websites like Craigslist. But perhaps

760
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:25.400
<v Speaker 1>there is no digital or paper trail to explain Stephen's

761
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:28.440
<v Speaker 1>trip because any arrangements he made were done verbally.

762
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:33.039
<v Speaker 3>Interesting. Yeah, it absolutely could be. You know, you look

763
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:36.480
<v Speaker 3>at the idea of public communication like you said that library,

764
00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:41.320
<v Speaker 3>computers or verbal communication. But I'm really worried and the

765
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:43.760
<v Speaker 3>hair stands up on my arms when you talk about

766
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:45.639
<v Speaker 3>the fact that his cell phone had been checked two

767
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:48.760
<v Speaker 3>days after the fact that he disappeared. Stephen was in

768
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:52.119
<v Speaker 3>communication with his family if he was alive. I feel

769
00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:55.159
<v Speaker 3>like he would have reached out if he could, and

770
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:57.039
<v Speaker 3>he was in trouble by the time it got to

771
00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.199
<v Speaker 3>a point where he felt scared and he was in trouble,

772
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.199
<v Speaker 3>I think he would have called his family. And I

773
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:05.199
<v Speaker 3>definitely think, like you said, you have incidences where like

774
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:07.840
<v Speaker 3>the holidays came and he didn't show up. You have

775
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:09.800
<v Speaker 3>the death of his father and he didn't show up.

776
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:12.039
<v Speaker 3>There's things in life where if he could have I

777
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:14.239
<v Speaker 3>feel like there would have been some kind of communication

778
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:17.360
<v Speaker 3>and there wasn't. And so that idea that his cell

779
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:20.920
<v Speaker 3>phone was pinging and someone was checking the voicemails on

780
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.519
<v Speaker 3>his phone makes me think that he had already been

781
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:26.639
<v Speaker 3>deceased or was gravely injured, and that phone just happened

782
00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:29.119
<v Speaker 3>to be near his body, And then it makes you

783
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:32.280
<v Speaker 3>think where was he, what happened, and who had him?

784
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that detail is one of the reasons why

785
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I never really believed that Steven's death was a suicide

786
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:40.400
<v Speaker 2>or that he simply wandered out into the desert or died,

787
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:42.719
<v Speaker 2>because it doesn't really make much sense for his phone

788
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:45.440
<v Speaker 2>to still be pinging two days after the fact, so

789
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:48.119
<v Speaker 2>I am inclined to think that someone else had possession

790
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:51.599
<v Speaker 2>of that phone during that time period. So I think

791
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:53.840
<v Speaker 2>that about brings an end to Part two, But during

792
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:56.880
<v Speaker 2>our next episode will finally present a bunch of recently

793
00:40:56.920 --> 00:41:00.360
<v Speaker 2>unearthed information to shed more light on this case. Join

794
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:02.639
<v Speaker 2>us next week for the conclusion of our three part

795
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:07.840
<v Speaker 2>series about the disappearance of Steven Kosher Robin.

796
00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:09.280
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to tell us a little bit about

797
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:10.519
<v Speaker 1>the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

798
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:13.599
<v Speaker 2>Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

799
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:17.440
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

800
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:20.920
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

801
00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:23.760
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

802
00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:26.360
<v Speaker 2>with us. On Patreon if you join our five dollars

803
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:30.480
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in

804
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.679
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

805
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.039
<v Speaker 2>The Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

806
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.840
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier three, the

807
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:42.800
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

808
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:47.159
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,

809
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:50.400
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

810
00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.679
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

811
00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:57.079
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

812
00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:00.239
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

813
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:03.719
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

814
00:42:03.719 --> 00:42:06.559
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

815
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.360
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

816
00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:12.119
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

817
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:15.159
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

818
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

819
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:17.679
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

820
00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:20.679
<v Speaker 4>about the Jeweles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

821
00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:23.599
<v Speaker 4>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've bought our

822
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.599
<v Speaker 4>Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so

823
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:28.760
<v Speaker 4>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

824
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.719
<v Speaker 4>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

825
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:34.320
<v Speaker 4>so we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link

826
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:35.440
<v Speaker 4>them in the show notes.

827
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:37.840
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

828
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.320
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

829
00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:43.360
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

830
00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:46.559
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

831
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:49.480
<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So

832
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:52.199
<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

833
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:54.679
<v Speaker 2>trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

834
00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:58.039
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy