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<v Speaker 1>The Team House with your hopes. Jack Murphy and David Bark.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey everyone, my name's Jack Murphy. This is the team House.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here tonight with our guest, Tim Sheer. He served

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<v Speaker 1>as an Army Counterintelligence Section chief, amongst other positions that

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<v Speaker 1>he held service in Desert Storm and elsewhere. He's also

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<v Speaker 1>the author of Spycatchers, Interrogators and Analysts, Tactical US Army

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<v Speaker 1>Military Intelligence in World War Two. I was just looking

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<v Speaker 1>through this the other day while he's here in the office.

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<v Speaker 1>It's super cool. If I mean, if you're interested in

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<v Speaker 1>World War two era military intelligence, you're definitely gonna want

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<v Speaker 1>to have this book on your shelf. Tim, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for joining us tonight.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm very humbled to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I was. I had a variety of jobs

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<v Speaker 2>when I was in Again, I was an Army Reserve

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<v Speaker 2>counter sky and I was mobed for Desert Storm Stateside

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<v Speaker 2>and also nine to eleven. So I don't want people

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<v Speaker 2>to think I'm trying to oversell myself.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, tell us a little bit about that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the process that you took towards joining the Army.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm I grew up in Quincy, Illinois. So if

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<v Speaker 2>you're not familiar with where Quincy is, if Illinois was

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<v Speaker 2>a pregnant woman, Quincy would be the belly button. So

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<v Speaker 2>we're just right across the Missouri are the Mississippi River

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<v Speaker 2>from Missouri. So I basically grew up in the same home,

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<v Speaker 2>came into that home as a baby until I graduated.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was always interested in the military, and my

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<v Speaker 2>mom would take us to the library and they had

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<v Speaker 2>these CB Colby books like Equipment of the Cold War,

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<v Speaker 2>Weapons of World War Two, things like that, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And I remember opening that book and seeing that Davy

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<v Speaker 2>Crockett on the back of that jeep, thinking that was

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<v Speaker 2>the coolest thing ever. So, and I was always definitely

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<v Speaker 2>interested in World War Two. And there was one point

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<v Speaker 2>when I was super young, I was maybe five or six,

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<v Speaker 2>like the movie The Battle of the Bulge was on,

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<v Speaker 2>and the parents were trying to get me to go

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<v Speaker 2>to bed, and I didn't want to go to bed

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<v Speaker 2>because I want to know how the war was going

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<v Speaker 2>to turn out. I mean, the Germans had patent tanks,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, how could they not lose? But so my

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<v Speaker 2>dad said go to bed, you'll be fighting World War

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<v Speaker 2>two for the rest of your life. And that's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of kind of how it's been. I think. So my

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<v Speaker 2>dad served in the military. I had some uncles that

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<v Speaker 2>served Moms and Paton's Army. I have one that's a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit of a mystery. He was a aviator who

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<v Speaker 2>received a Silver Star during the Japanese attack at Clark

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<v Speaker 2>Field on the eighth of December forty one, and he

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<v Speaker 2>survived the Baton Death March and died afterwards. And also,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that my brother served in the Air Force.

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<v Speaker 2>My niece just got back from a deployment as the

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<v Speaker 2>chief of staff for the Air Force Base and the UAE.

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<v Speaker 2>She just got back like a week ago.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, you had some family background, And did

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<v Speaker 1>you know as far as becoming an officer, did you

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<v Speaker 1>go through ROTC or how did that work for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was really thinking I was going to go

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<v Speaker 2>more of like a radio broadcasting route. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>was where my interest was in high school. And then

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<v Speaker 2>I realized it was kind of a suck job. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think, well, if I'm going to go to college,

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<v Speaker 2>I might as well go for four years and I

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<v Speaker 2>might as well study history. And then RTC presented itself

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<v Speaker 2>so yeah, I started participating in RTC as a freshman,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I ended up getting to three and a

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<v Speaker 2>half year scholarship, which because I got it at the

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<v Speaker 2>end of that semester, that gave me the money to

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<v Speaker 2>buy my seventy three Volkswagen Beetle, which was my college car.

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<v Speaker 2>So drove that all the way through school. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a first gen college and so my dad basically said,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a waste of money. Why are you doing this?

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<v Speaker 2>When I moved into the doors, my parents learn just said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>just go put your stuff up there and drive back

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<v Speaker 2>the next day and then we'll drop you off. Like

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<v Speaker 2>there was no big moving day, Like we didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>how to do any of this. So and I was again,

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<v Speaker 2>I was a band kid to the nth degree. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>Quincy Public Schools had bought a child sized tuba and

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<v Speaker 2>I was the guinea pig for the child size tuba,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I started playing it in fourth grade. And

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<v Speaker 2>I remember having to march in like, you know, three

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<v Speaker 2>mile parades with like a full sized fiberglass susophone that's

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<v Speaker 2>almost like dragging on the ground and stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Although I was a pretty good, pretty good tuba player

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<v Speaker 2>in that I think I only set second cheer one

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<v Speaker 2>time in my life. Ended up being All state actually

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<v Speaker 2>my senior year, and then I really walked away from it.

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<v Speaker 2>I just decided, you know, there's not going to be

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<v Speaker 2>any big resurgence in polka music, and I think so

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<v Speaker 2>far i've called that one right. I could have bought

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<v Speaker 2>a tuba with my scholarship money, but I thought the

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<v Speaker 2>car would do me a little more good. So and

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<v Speaker 2>again I was a skinny kid. I was one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and sixty pounds and I really worked hard during my

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<v Speaker 2>freshman year my sophomore year to build up and get strong.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got these ridiculously skinny arms, so like push ups

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<v Speaker 2>are just like the mechanics for push ups for me

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<v Speaker 2>are just not pretty. And so the second semester of

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<v Speaker 2>my sophomore year in college, I got mono and I

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<v Speaker 2>went from like one sixty to one thirty and I

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<v Speaker 2>lost everything and I had to completely start over. So,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, went through my junior year, became went through

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<v Speaker 2>RTC Advance Camp Fort Riley. I would have been summer

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<v Speaker 2>of eighty six, and then I was a pretty mediocre cadet. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>I just wasn't that physical. I mean, I was just

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<v Speaker 2>a skinny kid that was you know, just had monol

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<v Speaker 2>like a year before. And but I did the best

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<v Speaker 2>I could. And you know, I never I never struggled

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<v Speaker 2>with anything, but it was just always a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of a challenge for me. So they they

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<v Speaker 2>do like an internship for cadets and I got it's

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<v Speaker 2>called Cadet Troop Leader Training. So I got a CTL

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<v Speaker 2>the assignment and it was like the worst CTLT assignment

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<v Speaker 2>in the world. I got assigned to the jail commander

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<v Speaker 2>at Fort Gordon, Georgia. So I'm like, I show up

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<v Speaker 2>in like day one, Hey we're feeding them. Hey we're

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<v Speaker 2>they're getting showers. Hey they're doing this. And then like

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<v Speaker 2>day two, hey we're feeding them. Hey we're doing so

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<v Speaker 2>actually I we went and kind of farmed out and

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<v Speaker 2>rode along with the MPs, busting up fights at the

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<v Speaker 2>Enlistic Club. I stood gate one time, caught a drunk driver,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, all these sort of fun things that I

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<v Speaker 2>got to do. So when it came time to commission again,

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<v Speaker 2>you submit your dream sheet, and mine didn't come back

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<v Speaker 2>the way I'd hoped. I mean, I ranked as a

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<v Speaker 2>Distinguished Military Graduate but then I got put in the

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<v Speaker 2>reserve component and I got the branch I wanted, But

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<v Speaker 2>no one could seem to quite understand how that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>And everyone's like, well, you're a DMG and you got

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<v Speaker 2>in the reserve. So I'm like, yeah, I have no

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<v Speaker 2>idea how that happened. So I didn't really have a

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<v Speaker 2>plan B, so I had to had to move pretty

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<v Speaker 2>quick and figure things out. So I had to. And

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<v Speaker 2>when you're in the Army Reserve as an officer, there's

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<v Speaker 2>no career manager for you, like you are your own

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<v Speaker 2>career manager. There's no one you call and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>what jobs are open. You have to figure it out yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>So I figured out there were two am I detachments

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<v Speaker 2>in Saint Louis. One was the four eighty fifth am

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<v Speaker 2>I Detachment, which was a infantry brigade support unit, and

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<v Speaker 2>the other one was the two to eighty third in

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<v Speaker 2>my debt, which was a UKM theater level CI counter

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence unit. And so to me, the the forty fifth

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<v Speaker 2>seemed like the place to go, so I went ahead

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<v Speaker 2>and signed on there. I was really kind of an

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<v Speaker 2>extra officer until I went to my basic course, which

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<v Speaker 2>was not until October. But so I show up from

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<v Speaker 2>my first drill. I have no idea, never been to

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<v Speaker 2>a drill in my life, and I'm just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>sitting there and it's a warm June day and all

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<v Speaker 2>these guys are taking off their blouses because it's warm,

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<v Speaker 2>and they all got guns. I'm like, do I get

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<v Speaker 2>a gun? Like? I don't? Is this normal? They were

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<v Speaker 2>all Saint Louis City cops, so they were they were

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<v Speaker 2>packing guns with them all the time because you never know,

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<v Speaker 2>they might walk out of the Reserve center and see

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<v Speaker 2>somebody that they knew. But so we ended up doing

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<v Speaker 2>our very first annual training that summer and we were

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<v Speaker 2>going to Gagetown, Canadian Forces Base. Now the forty fifth

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<v Speaker 2>mission was US Army Forces Republic of Iceland. So there's

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<v Speaker 2>the Icelandic Defense Force and then they're the different service

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<v Speaker 2>components NAVICE which was active duty, at ICE which was

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<v Speaker 2>active duty, and then the reserve component had had the

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<v Speaker 2>Army Headquarters was a reserve unit out of a oh

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<v Speaker 2>gosh An Air Force Base out of Massachusetts, and the

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<v Speaker 2>one eighty seventh sib Army Reserve. This was before the

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<v Speaker 2>off Side Agreement and the Army Reserve lost all the

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<v Speaker 2>combat units they were out of Massachusetts, and so because

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't have a job, didn't have really anything to do,

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<v Speaker 2>I got put on advanced party. So we went up

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<v Speaker 2>there and we had all kinds of problems that Sato

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<v Speaker 2>screwed up our tickets, like our connecting flights were booked

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<v Speaker 2>for the second day. Ended up sleeping in the Bangor

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<v Speaker 2>main airport with my RTC colleague, and then it came

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<v Speaker 2>time for us to pick up our vehicles. So we

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<v Speaker 2>had this blue Bonneville station wagon with like wood grain

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<v Speaker 2>on the site, so they rented at the airport to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of run around until we got all of our equipment.

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<v Speaker 2>So our equipment had been railroaded out of Saint Louis

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<v Speaker 2>and shipped up to like New Hampshire and then put

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<v Speaker 2>on flatbeds to haul up to gain each town Canadian

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<v Speaker 2>Forces base, which is New Brunswick. And so we go

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<v Speaker 2>up to pick up our vehicles and we quickly discover

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<v Speaker 2>that we only have one of our vehicles. We only

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<v Speaker 2>have our two and a half ton truck, and fortunately

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<v Speaker 2>that's got all of our tents and everything else in it.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, we only had like five vehicles to begin with,

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<v Speaker 2>so our our other vehicles were involved with the fatal

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<v Speaker 2>traffic accident, I'm sure, and the state police impounded them.

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<v Speaker 2>So like, we didn't know when we're going to get

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<v Speaker 2>our stuff, and so we decided to keep the Bottomville

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<v Speaker 2>wagon for a while. And so we you know, fortunately

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<v Speaker 2>we had our tents. We got our tents and everything

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<v Speaker 2>set up, and the Brigade commanding General showed up and

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<v Speaker 2>there's you know, this kind of like strach e five.

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<v Speaker 2>He sees I've got a different patch. He goes, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>where are you from? I seven forty fifth of miles Saints?

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<v Speaker 2>Where you and my guys? And he says, okay, so

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on. How's it going. I'm like, well, not well,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't have any of our vehicles because of this

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<v Speaker 2>thing happened. And he said, oh okay, well thanks for

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<v Speaker 2>letting me know. And so he told the general and

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<v Speaker 2>next thing, you know, like that, the Brigade S four

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<v Speaker 2>came looking for us. He's like, hey, you guys, don't

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<v Speaker 2>you got your vehicles? Are gone? Like okay, we can

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<v Speaker 2>loan you get two in one five one jeeps. We're like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>that's awesome, thank you. And so we got the two

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<v Speaker 2>M one five one jeeps and then so in the

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<v Speaker 2>motor pool, you know, it was like Humby Humby kuk

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<v Speaker 2>v kuk V Bonneville with wood grain Humby Humby humby uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And they they wanted the jeeps back after like two days.

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<v Speaker 2>So we started hiding the jeeps. So we found a

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<v Speaker 2>place where we could park them where no one could

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<v Speaker 2>see them. And so then the you know, the S

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<v Speaker 2>four would come back, Hey, I need my jeeps back,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're like, oh, you know, they were just here

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<v Speaker 2>five minutes ago here, why don't you come back in

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<v Speaker 2>about two hours? And we think they'll be here. So

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<v Speaker 2>we finally got our vehicles like well into the second week.

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<v Speaker 2>But I remember we did a jump talk for the

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<v Speaker 2>brigade and so it was an artep exercise. So the

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<v Speaker 2>aviation unit Kyro Warriors is flying overhead. I can see

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<v Speaker 2>the CAVS squadron screening us on the flanks and then

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<v Speaker 2>on one threes and and I'm in the Bonnaville in

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<v Speaker 2>the middle of this convoy. So that that was an

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<v Speaker 2>interesting experience. So from there I went to IOBC Class

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<v Speaker 2>eighty eight dash too. It's about a half active half

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<v Speaker 2>reserve start in October and it was a really good experience.

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<v Speaker 2>I did pretty well there, and there was a guy

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<v Speaker 2>in there which I've never quite figured out who he

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<v Speaker 2>was to this point. I think his name was his

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<v Speaker 2>last name was Mackenzie, and I want to say Bob Mackenzie,

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<v Speaker 2>but that may be like a that may be like

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<v Speaker 2>a Great White North mix up in my brain. But

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<v Speaker 2>Bob had a really curious intel background and he had

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<v Speaker 2>some stories about how he had been in Granada. He

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<v Speaker 2>had been in the evasion of Lebanon in an Israeli uniform,

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<v Speaker 2>and he had just come from Infantry Officer Basic course

240
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<v Speaker 2>and then he was going through am I Officer Basic course.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, who does that? So we've and he was

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<v Speaker 2>going to brag, So we're kind of curious. So if

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<v Speaker 2>anyone knows Bob, let me know kind of who he was.

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<v Speaker 2>But so he actually ended up getting hurt in Ranger school,

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<v Speaker 2>which he went to right after then I think he

246
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<v Speaker 2>got out processed. But so then I had another opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>to go for active duty that had what was called

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<v Speaker 2>the Commandants program, and so I ranked sixth out of

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<v Speaker 2>my forty five members in my class. But my buddy,

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<v Speaker 2>good friend of mine he ranked fourth out of forty five.

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<v Speaker 2>So I h he ended up getting it and he

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<v Speaker 2>was clearly the better man. But so then I'm like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I got to go back and find a job, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's what I did.

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256
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<v Speaker 1>Is that how it works in the reserves, They're not

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<v Speaker 1>just assigning you somewhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I was already. I was in the

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<v Speaker 2>for eighty fifth that was my unit, but I had

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<v Speaker 2>to go find it like a civilian job.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh oh, I'm the outside, gotcha right.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's hard when you're in the reserves, especially when

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<v Speaker 2>you're young, because you might get called up or ever.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I ended up working for a trucking company

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<v Speaker 2>for a while. It was actually my mom's competiting company.

292
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<v Speaker 2>So I did that for like about a month and

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<v Speaker 2>a half and it was kind of a job and

294
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<v Speaker 2>so they I had put in orders for the Intelligence

295
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:21.559
<v Speaker 2>and Terrorism Counteraction course at Fort Watchuka two weeks of school,

296
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<v Speaker 2>and I went to my boss on Friday and I'm like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got these orders. I can get them canceled if

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00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:29.879
<v Speaker 2>need be. I kind of like to go came into

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<v Speaker 2>work Monday, and he fired me. So it all actually

300
00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of worked out in that the next day I

301
00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.480
<v Speaker 2>actually got a much better job offer for where I

302
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:44.840
<v Speaker 2>worked for twelve years, so it turned out to be

303
00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.600
<v Speaker 2>pretty well. So my job was I worked at Northeast

304
00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.679
<v Speaker 2>Missouri State and I maintained fourteen hundred and ninety two

305
00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:56.440
<v Speaker 2>apartments and dorm rooms. I had twenty six staff and

306
00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:01.360
<v Speaker 2>just basically kept all those kids warmed ry and did

307
00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:02.879
<v Speaker 2>that for twelve years. And that was never a dull

308
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>moment for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, So what was going on with your military

310
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:13.799
<v Speaker 1>service throughout that time frame?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I was formally assigned to the CI

312
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:21.839
<v Speaker 2>Section as the CI Section Chief, and the forty fifth

313
00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:24.799
<v Speaker 2>was a pretty cool unit in that it was a

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00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.359
<v Speaker 2>very capable unit. Even though like we had steel pots,

315
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:33.039
<v Speaker 2>we had gamma goats, we had just you know, we

316
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.200
<v Speaker 2>had an M sixteen, not even an A one in

317
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:41.759
<v Speaker 2>eighty eight I think it was. But the unit was

318
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:46.559
<v Speaker 2>really capable in that. Like my c I Section chief

319
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.440
<v Speaker 2>was me. I had a warrant officer who was a

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00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.680
<v Speaker 2>school teacher librarian, but he spent all summer going to

321
00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.119
<v Speaker 2>army schools and teaching in army schools, so he you know,

322
00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.279
<v Speaker 2>he was an interrogator. He was a a CI agent.

323
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:03.480
<v Speaker 2>He had taught at the school house, all that kind

324
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.920
<v Speaker 2>of stuff. And then I had a deputy sheriff from

325
00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Madison County, Illinois, so he was a full time cop.

326
00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:13.599
<v Speaker 2>And then I had a guy who was a Saint

327
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<v Speaker 2>Louis City cop, former prior service sergeant, York crewman, if

328
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.240
<v Speaker 2>that says anything. And then I had a guy who

329
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:24.559
<v Speaker 2>was a private investigator. So I had a pretty stacked

330
00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:27.279
<v Speaker 2>little team of guys who did stuff on their outside

331
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<v Speaker 2>work from the unit. The interrogator section had a bunch

332
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<v Speaker 2>of Saint Loss City cops, a postal inspector, our photo interpreter.

333
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.200
<v Speaker 2>Warrant worked at defense mapping, the order of battle warrant

334
00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:42.960
<v Speaker 2>worked at defense mapping. I mean, there's a lot of

335
00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:48.000
<v Speaker 2>very good crossover inside of that unit, despite the Army

336
00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.079
<v Speaker 2>not giving this a whole lot of anything.

337
00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.240
<v Speaker 1>About what yours was this that you were there.

338
00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.440
<v Speaker 2>I commissioned and it came back in eighty eight, and

339
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:08.519
<v Speaker 2>then I was there until Desert Storm spun up. So

340
00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.839
<v Speaker 2>we did go to Northern Viking eighty nine. We took

341
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.160
<v Speaker 2>our took the c I section up there, and they

342
00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:18.720
<v Speaker 2>took the the Rice headquarters, brigade head quarters in one battalion,

343
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and we were kind of an attachment, so we actually

344
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.119
<v Speaker 2>got to run around on our ground and we liaised

345
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.319
<v Speaker 2>with an ISS and was able to give them a

346
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.799
<v Speaker 2>few leads on a few different things. But that was

347
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.079
<v Speaker 2>super cool. If you've ever read Red Storm Rising, that's

348
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:35.319
<v Speaker 2>that's the scenario right there. That's that's what was going

349
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:38.599
<v Speaker 2>to go down in Iceland. And we, like I remember,

350
00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:40.640
<v Speaker 2>we were next to the flight line and like an

351
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.079
<v Speaker 2>F fifteen would go screaming off the runway and you

352
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.680
<v Speaker 2>could follow it because the sky was so clear. You know,

353
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.240
<v Speaker 2>it's going up to intercept a bear bomber in the sky.

354
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:54.200
<v Speaker 2>There were anti submarine aircraft lying all the time, things

355
00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:58.839
<v Speaker 2>like that, so it was it was pretty fascinating. It

356
00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.519
<v Speaker 2>was also during summer, so it really didn't get dark

357
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:03.640
<v Speaker 2>the whole time we were there. So when we came back,

358
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:08.640
<v Speaker 2>we're like eating dinner in Connecticut and we're like, it's dark.

359
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:13.119
<v Speaker 2>You see that it's dark outside, Yeah, it's dark. So

360
00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:15.680
<v Speaker 2>that was a that was an interesting experience.

361
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:19.680
<v Speaker 1>What kinds of things did you do there as a

362
00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:26.000
<v Speaker 1>CI guy. We're just interviewing another person earlier who's telling

363
00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:28.119
<v Speaker 1>us he was a CI guy. Also he's telling us

364
00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:30.359
<v Speaker 1>about how he had to put the kai bosh on

365
00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.200
<v Speaker 1>the young soldiers going to the strip club in a

366
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:34.039
<v Speaker 1>foreign country.

367
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:37.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was a real challenge when we went to

368
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Iceland because the Icelanders are xenophobic, very xenophobic. They don't

369
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.039
<v Speaker 2>like outsiders very well. They didn't like us. In fact,

370
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:45.759
<v Speaker 2>when we went out of town, me and my guys,

371
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:49.400
<v Speaker 2>we found these like Icelandic Canadian pins that we would

372
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.359
<v Speaker 2>wear so people would be nice to us. But the

373
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:57.079
<v Speaker 2>biggest problem we had off post, which are our soldiers.

374
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.240
<v Speaker 2>Didn't go off post a whole lot for that exercise,

375
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:02.839
<v Speaker 2>but these are intersitdery Boston kids, and that's like the

376
00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.759
<v Speaker 2>flavor flav era. So I remember one guy walking around

377
00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:09.960
<v Speaker 2>with the big clock and all this kind of stuff,

378
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:14.519
<v Speaker 2>and so that was a bit of a challenge. And

379
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.640
<v Speaker 2>also we were just doing standard tactical ci making sure

380
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:21.359
<v Speaker 2>that they had good operational security practices, make sure they

381
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:24.519
<v Speaker 2>weren't throwing op orders and dumpsters and you know, listening

382
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:28.559
<v Speaker 2>to radio nets and visiting sites for camouflage and all

383
00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:32.759
<v Speaker 2>those sorts of things. We actually the year before we did,

384
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:35.759
<v Speaker 2>we were with the separate Infantry Brigade out of Oklahoma,

385
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:40.440
<v Speaker 2>and we decided that we were talking to the battalion commander.

386
00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:42.839
<v Speaker 2>He's like, oh, yeah, you guys can collect on my boys.

387
00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.599
<v Speaker 2>They're good. I'm like, okay, that sounds like fun. So

388
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:49.680
<v Speaker 2>we snuck some guys in and they used a lighter

389
00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:53.799
<v Speaker 2>and burned burned off the insulation on their WD one wires,

390
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:57.680
<v Speaker 2>and we tapped them and ran a line off of

391
00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:01.480
<v Speaker 2>that flew around and got aerial imagery of it. We

392
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:05.880
<v Speaker 2>took We had a interrogator female, so she put on

393
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.799
<v Speaker 2>a pair of shorts and a tank top and went

394
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:12.200
<v Speaker 2>for a ride on the roach coach and started asking

395
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:14.519
<v Speaker 2>questions to see what kind of information she could get.

396
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:16.400
<v Speaker 2>So it was all over. We gave this guy like

397
00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.119
<v Speaker 2>a I actually sat and listened to the radio nets

398
00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:21.319
<v Speaker 2>into traffic analysis on it and stuff like that. So

399
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:23.640
<v Speaker 2>we presented, you know, okay, here's your battalion, this is

400
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.559
<v Speaker 2>what we know about him. So that that was good.

401
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.039
<v Speaker 2>That was that was actually good training.

402
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.920
<v Speaker 1>Did they ship bricks when you give a brief on that?

403
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:35.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they were a little humbled by everything we were

404
00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:37.960
<v Speaker 2>able to get. And we really were not that capable either.

405
00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:40.839
<v Speaker 2>I mean we were We're pretty old school. I think

406
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.000
<v Speaker 2>we stole a we got the frequency off one of

407
00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:46.519
<v Speaker 2>their vehicles, and that's how then we were able to

408
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.440
<v Speaker 2>then start building their radio net through traffic analysis like

409
00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:53.920
<v Speaker 2>S three. He's the angry guy, you know, things like

410
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.400
<v Speaker 2>that when he's on the radio. So yeah, that was fun.

411
00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.599
<v Speaker 2>So in the summer of nineteen ninety, we didn't have

412
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.240
<v Speaker 2>a name training, like people were just going to schools.

413
00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.880
<v Speaker 2>So I actually got sent to kind of a crap

414
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.160
<v Speaker 2>job I got to. I got sent to Fort Leonard

415
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.319
<v Speaker 2>Wood to the Special Security Office. Although it turned out

416
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:13.920
<v Speaker 2>to be interesting because that was July of nineteen ninety

417
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:16.839
<v Speaker 2>and I was producing the Black Books for the Engineer

418
00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:21.519
<v Speaker 2>School and that was the entire build up of Saddam

419
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:23.640
<v Speaker 2>on the Kuwait border. So I'm reading all of this

420
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:26.559
<v Speaker 2>intel before. Of course, you know, it ended and I

421
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.160
<v Speaker 2>went home, But little did I know a few months

422
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:31.559
<v Speaker 2>later I would get roped into it.

423
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:36.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, tell us about that spinning up for the Gulf War,

424
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:37.680
<v Speaker 1>how did that come about?

425
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:43.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's pretty clear the four eighty fifth wasn't wasn't

426
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>going to get mobilized unless like the Russians were crossing

427
00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:50.359
<v Speaker 2>the Mississippi River. So the two eighty third did get

428
00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:54.599
<v Speaker 2>called up and they went to they went to Germany,

429
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.640
<v Speaker 2>and by the time they got spun up and trained, like,

430
00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:58.119
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing was over and they came back like

431
00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.960
<v Speaker 2>a couple of months later. So they actually pulled two

432
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:03.759
<v Speaker 2>officers out of the unit, myself and another guy who

433
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.519
<v Speaker 2>worked at McDonald Douglass which is now Bowing in Saint Louis,

434
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.640
<v Speaker 2>and they sent us to US Transcom j the J

435
00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:13.279
<v Speaker 2>two of Transcomb, which is at Scott Air Force Base,

436
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:18.160
<v Speaker 2>Joint Force Headquarters, four Star Headquarters. And at that point

437
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:22.839
<v Speaker 2>Transcomb was really only two years old, as Goldwater Nichols

438
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:26.960
<v Speaker 2>had just happened, and the J two was really just

439
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:31.640
<v Speaker 2>the Military Airlift Command I in shop and then they

440
00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:35.839
<v Speaker 2>had like a little space with about a dozen people

441
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:38.240
<v Speaker 2>in it. A Navy guy there was like an Army

442
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.880
<v Speaker 2>imagery guy and a few others, and I was either

443
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.960
<v Speaker 2>the second or third Army guy assigned to the J

444
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:49.319
<v Speaker 2>two there at Transcom, And so then I got thrown

445
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.359
<v Speaker 2>over to be the briefer on the Crisis Action Team.

446
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.119
<v Speaker 2>And so I was brief in the four star general

447
00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:58.440
<v Speaker 2>like within two days of again there, and I was like,

448
00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:00.279
<v Speaker 2>I was not a good briefer. I had to figure

449
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:02.559
<v Speaker 2>it out quick, and it actually worked out okay. But

450
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:06.319
<v Speaker 2>so I did that for like forty five days, and

451
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:08.960
<v Speaker 2>then the other lieutenant swapped with me. He came over

452
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:12.000
<v Speaker 2>to the Crisis Action Team and we were working four

453
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.079
<v Speaker 2>days on, two days off, and then we have flipped

454
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:17.640
<v Speaker 2>the nights, and then we do four days on and

455
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:19.680
<v Speaker 2>then two days off and then flip back to days.

456
00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:21.720
<v Speaker 2>So every six days we were flipping days and nights.

457
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:24.599
<v Speaker 2>They just have enough people to do days and nights.

458
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.839
<v Speaker 2>So I was working in the Crisis Action Team among

459
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:32.079
<v Speaker 2>all the operations folks, the logistics team, the airteam, Navy team,

460
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:34.920
<v Speaker 2>all those guys that are making all of this high

461
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:39.240
<v Speaker 2>level logistics working, and so we would give them our

462
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:43.680
<v Speaker 2>J two update. So I got swapped out and I

463
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.720
<v Speaker 2>actually went over to write a trucking study on the

464
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.359
<v Speaker 2>Saudi Arabian Peninsula. So that was my job for like

465
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.680
<v Speaker 2>forty five days. You got to write this trucking study

466
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.960
<v Speaker 2>on Saudi Arabia. I like, okay, so I'm researching. I'm

467
00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:57.640
<v Speaker 2>trying to find everything. I asked for a couple of

468
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:01.079
<v Speaker 2>days of like a permi of TD why. I went

469
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.680
<v Speaker 2>back to my college library, spent two days, and all

470
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:09.400
<v Speaker 2>I found was a reference in Smithsonian magazine that said,

471
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.640
<v Speaker 2>no self respecting Bedouin truck driver would drive anything less

472
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:15.599
<v Speaker 2>than a Mercedes. I'm like, I went to my box.

473
00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:17.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I am floundering on this. So another guy

474
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:21.079
<v Speaker 2>came in and he's like, why don't we call a

475
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:23.720
<v Speaker 2>why don't we call like a auto company. They called

476
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.920
<v Speaker 2>the Ford Motor Company, and like you know, four days

477
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.119
<v Speaker 2>later we had a print out like this thick of

478
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:31.720
<v Speaker 2>every vehicle that has ever been sold to Saudi Arabia.

479
00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:36.160
<v Speaker 2>So so I've got a citation for that, but I

480
00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:40.799
<v Speaker 2>also didn't do much on it. So the other guy

481
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:44.279
<v Speaker 2>decided he wanted to go back to Boeing or McDonald douglas.

482
00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.079
<v Speaker 2>So I was left there and then I got joined

483
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.960
<v Speaker 2>by an army guy who transferred end by the name

484
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.240
<v Speaker 2>of Brock ears A. Brock actually had grown up in

485
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:56.039
<v Speaker 2>that area. He's a captain as a lieutenant, and I

486
00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:58.279
<v Speaker 2>was a brand new first lieutenant at that point, and

487
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:00.799
<v Speaker 2>he had just come out of the White House situation room.

488
00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:06.599
<v Speaker 2>In fact, he was the Southcomb briefer for just cause,

489
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.000
<v Speaker 2>so and he had some really good stories about, you know,

490
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:15.519
<v Speaker 2>how all that went down, but so how he briefed

491
00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:17.359
<v Speaker 2>on the Oval office and now he went and briefed

492
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:21.119
<v Speaker 2>Quail separately and things like that. So he was a

493
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:24.000
<v Speaker 2>really great mentor for me. And we were working together

494
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.279
<v Speaker 2>these kind of day and night shifts, so there were

495
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:28.960
<v Speaker 2>a few moments when we didn't actually know what to

496
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:31.079
<v Speaker 2>make of anything. So Brock's like, hey, let me call

497
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:32.839
<v Speaker 2>my buddies, you know, and you get on the stew

498
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:35.680
<v Speaker 2>three and call and pop up White House. Hey, Bob,

499
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:37.839
<v Speaker 2>tell me what's going on, that kind of thing. So

500
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.440
<v Speaker 2>it was it was really interesting to be there. But

501
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:46.279
<v Speaker 2>so the J two desk was actually right next to

502
00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:53.000
<v Speaker 2>the snack bar and the J three. General Cross wall

503
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Cross was kind of a junk food junkie, and so

504
00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.079
<v Speaker 2>he would always come over and looking for something to eat,

505
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.079
<v Speaker 2>and he would just strike up conversations, and we had

506
00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:04.559
<v Speaker 2>complete access to all the geos there there was there

507
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:06.920
<v Speaker 2>were no there were no people we had to go through.

508
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:08.960
<v Speaker 2>We need to talk to anybody, we could just go

509
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.720
<v Speaker 2>talk to them. And I remember one day I was

510
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.839
<v Speaker 2>reading Bodyguard of Lies and he's like, Lieutenant, I'm so

511
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:21.039
<v Speaker 2>proud of you for that. So it was, it was,

512
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.440
<v Speaker 2>it was pretty pretty, pretty busy. I actually did make

513
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:26.240
<v Speaker 2>an attempt to try and to play went over to

514
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.240
<v Speaker 2>the Helicopter Unit, Army Reserve Helicopter Unit, which is part

515
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.400
<v Speaker 2>of our command. I said, hey, I mean, am I

516
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:34.559
<v Speaker 2>a guy, I'm trained up, I'm already working the problem.

517
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:36.839
<v Speaker 2>I like to go with you guys. And they're like, no,

518
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:39.680
<v Speaker 2>I think I probably worked it wrong. But they were

519
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:42.759
<v Speaker 2>actually the unit. They were a super cool unit. They

520
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:49.000
<v Speaker 2>were a lot of the guys worked at Aviation Systems Command,

521
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.920
<v Speaker 2>which is at that point was in Saint Louis, Missouri,

522
00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:55.359
<v Speaker 2>and all the warrants were Vietnam guys, and they actually

523
00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:00.759
<v Speaker 2>ended up being like the Distinguished Visitor Helo Unit or Sentcom,

524
00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:04.079
<v Speaker 2>so they flew shortz cough to the peace talks with

525
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:06.640
<v Speaker 2>the Iraqis things like that. So that was a kind

526
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:11.920
<v Speaker 2>of a missed opportunity for me. But so, yeah, there

527
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:16.799
<v Speaker 2>was there's a lot going on, and when Israel started

528
00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:23.079
<v Speaker 2>receiving scuds from Iraq, we got like a warning and

529
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:26.319
<v Speaker 2>execution order like that, like we got to do this

530
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:28.559
<v Speaker 2>right now. We had to get patriots down to Israel.

531
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:33.839
<v Speaker 2>So my colleagues worked that that evening. I didn't really

532
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:35.759
<v Speaker 2>have much of a play in it other than, you know,

533
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:38.880
<v Speaker 2>making sure that the apods and spods were okay in Germany.

534
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:41.279
<v Speaker 2>And then the next night they were set up in

535
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:44.200
<v Speaker 2>Israel and we watched them like knock missiles out of

536
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the sky and saved lives. That was super cool.

537
00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:52.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I for a documentary project. I was

538
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.680
<v Speaker 1>watching some of the news footage from back then of

539
00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:59.279
<v Speaker 1>the scuds coming into Israel and hitting residential areas and

540
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:01.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm I mean, it looks so terrifying.

541
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:05.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I had a I had kind of a funny

542
00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:09.200
<v Speaker 2>experience with those. So we we we didn't have any

543
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:13.400
<v Speaker 2>connectivity where the the Crisis Action Team was actually in

544
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:17.759
<v Speaker 2>the old Commissary. The post Commissary, they built a new

545
00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:20.079
<v Speaker 2>one as a big open building, so they just chopped

546
00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:22.480
<v Speaker 2>it up into a bunch of offices and so the

547
00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:25.799
<v Speaker 2>cat team was in there, and so to read intel

548
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:29.400
<v Speaker 2>traffic or pick up intel traffic, they would print it.

549
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:32.160
<v Speaker 2>We put in a suitcase carried over to us about

550
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.480
<v Speaker 2>two block walk and then we'd read it over there.

551
00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:40.559
<v Speaker 2>And so I was in the watch center and I

552
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:45.160
<v Speaker 2>heard the beep, beep beep, and and then listened ANSD like,

553
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:47.759
<v Speaker 2>we got a critic, we got a critic, Like, okay,

554
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:52.960
<v Speaker 2>we got a critic. Okay, let's see what happens, and beppepeep, Okay,

555
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.079
<v Speaker 2>we got a scud. It's coming out of a rack.

556
00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:02.559
<v Speaker 2>It's going to Turkey, It's going into Turkey. I'm like, Turkey.

557
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.480
<v Speaker 2>Turkey is a NATO country, So if they shoot a

558
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:09.920
<v Speaker 2>missile at Turkey, that means that's an attack on a

559
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:13.039
<v Speaker 2>NATO country, which means NATO is probably going to join

560
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:17.519
<v Speaker 2>the GOUF. I was like, oh shit, this is this

561
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:20.519
<v Speaker 2>is a pretty big deal. And then peep peep, another

562
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.119
<v Speaker 2>one comes in. We got the asthmuth wrong. It's going

563
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:29.559
<v Speaker 2>to Israel, like geez Louise. So you know, the war

564
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:35.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of drew down, and so there's a little bit

565
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:37.960
<v Speaker 2>of an insurgency that popped up there and I ended

566
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:42.759
<v Speaker 2>up I was briefing the general, and the General really

567
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:45.839
<v Speaker 2>kind of took a shining to me, a hands for T.

568
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:49.039
<v Speaker 2>Johnson Air Force four star guy, and like all the

569
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:51.119
<v Speaker 2>geos kind of took a shining to me because I was,

570
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:56.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, a younger version of them. And so there

571
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:58.720
<v Speaker 2>was one moment in a briefing where the four star

572
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.960
<v Speaker 2>at that point they were called sins like, I'm briefing

573
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:04.559
<v Speaker 2>something about Iraqi a surgency, and he's like, well, why

574
00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:07.000
<v Speaker 2>don't they just fade into the woodwork and like Vietnam.

575
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:09.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, sir, there and I just shot right

576
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:10.920
<v Speaker 2>back and I'm sure there is no woodwork in Iraq.

577
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:16.319
<v Speaker 2>And there was this like pregnant moment. I'm like, I

578
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:19.559
<v Speaker 2>am so screwed, like I'm about to get fired, and

579
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.839
<v Speaker 2>then he started laughing. And so from then on I

580
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.440
<v Speaker 2>became Lieutenant Woodwork. So as things spun down, we worked

581
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.119
<v Speaker 2>on like Northern Watch. I remember I had to hand

582
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.759
<v Speaker 2>draw a map for the four star to brief him.

583
00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:35.640
<v Speaker 2>I literally hand drew a map and laid it on

584
00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:37.559
<v Speaker 2>the table for him and kind of explained it to

585
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.119
<v Speaker 2>him and he's like, LT, what's this, I go, sir,

586
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.599
<v Speaker 2>that's an Infantry Company, you know, things like that. That

587
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.960
<v Speaker 2>was a little crazy. One of the weirder things we

588
00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:53.200
<v Speaker 2>did was as Desert Storm was the desert desert sorte

589
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:55.799
<v Speaker 2>was starting to pick up, which is the return, we

590
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.920
<v Speaker 2>got like a warning order that there'd been some sort

591
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:05.599
<v Speaker 2>of Yanna humanitarian disaster in Iran and and there were there.

592
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.599
<v Speaker 2>They wanted us to start looking at the possibilities of

593
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:12.279
<v Speaker 2>taking humanitarian supplies into Iran. We're like, oh, jeez, that's

594
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:15.279
<v Speaker 2>a weird one. So I got with the Middle East

595
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:18.559
<v Speaker 2>Analyst and we started looking at road networks and train

596
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:22.119
<v Speaker 2>network and roads and all that kind of stuff. We

597
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.839
<v Speaker 2>got like a day into it, and then the Iran

598
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:28.759
<v Speaker 2>put out a message that they didn't want any AIDS

599
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.599
<v Speaker 2>infected blankets from the US. So that pretty much shut

600
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.960
<v Speaker 2>that whole thing down immediately. So I kind of like,

601
00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:38.839
<v Speaker 2>I guess smallpox blankets, I don't know.

602
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So.

603
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Really from there I went back. Uh so I got DMO,

604
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:48.400
<v Speaker 2>went back to the forty fifth for a couple months,

605
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:52.400
<v Speaker 2>and then when they created the Joint Transportation Reserve Unit,

606
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:55.079
<v Speaker 2>which was the first reserve unit stood up on a

607
00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:58.880
<v Speaker 2>joint Manning document. There were some different units that maybe

608
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.680
<v Speaker 2>drilled together, but we were actually under a unified command,

609
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:05.799
<v Speaker 2>joint joint document, everything else. But when they stood up

610
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:08.719
<v Speaker 2>the Army Element in October of ninety one, they made

611
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.760
<v Speaker 2>us a drilling im a detachment, which basically just means

612
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:14.519
<v Speaker 2>you're not going to get paid. I figured that out.

613
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.800
<v Speaker 2>So I actually went eight or nine months without getting

614
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:22.639
<v Speaker 2>any of my droll pay, which was not cool. And

615
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:26.239
<v Speaker 2>I ended up having to work through a my congressman

616
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:28.800
<v Speaker 2>like every single month so I could actually get my drolly.

617
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:34.679
<v Speaker 2>It was so screwed up. So then when we went

618
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:41.840
<v Speaker 2>into Somalia restore Hope, I believe is that name an exercise?

619
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:42.400
<v Speaker 1>I think so.

620
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I was down there for a weekend and

621
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:47.119
<v Speaker 2>then they're like, okay, we're going to call you up.

622
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:49.480
<v Speaker 2>We're going to put you on ninety day orders and

623
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:53.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, you guys are going to run the situation

624
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:57.760
<v Speaker 2>shop or the J two for this particular exercise. We're like, okay,

625
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:01.679
<v Speaker 2>that's that's good, super cool. And that there was the

626
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:04.719
<v Speaker 2>Intel system where I, you know, you could chat with people.

627
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:08.679
<v Speaker 2>I remember I was chatting with an amphib and hey,

628
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:10.559
<v Speaker 2>I need some pictures of the doc, and you get

629
00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:13.480
<v Speaker 2>me pictures of the dock and you know, some guy

630
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:15.239
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, ah, sure, sure, I'll tee, I get

631
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:17.079
<v Speaker 2>it right for you. You know, two hours later these

632
00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:20.400
<v Speaker 2>JPEGs show up. I'm like, this is so cool, Like

633
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:26.119
<v Speaker 2>this thing, this internet thing's pretty interesting. But when I

634
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:29.119
<v Speaker 2>actually reported. The day I report, I remember I was

635
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:32.039
<v Speaker 2>checking into the scot d and I saw the seals

636
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:35.639
<v Speaker 2>coming over the beach on CNN and the lobby of

637
00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:37.639
<v Speaker 2>the I'm like, okay, well this is going to be different.

638
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:43.920
<v Speaker 2>And then that that pay issue continued. I was going

639
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.679
<v Speaker 2>towards my second month of active duty and still had

640
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:52.639
<v Speaker 2>not been paid, which was ridiculous. So I would work

641
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:55.719
<v Speaker 2>a night shift and Army Reserve Personnel Centers ninety seven

642
00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:02.320
<v Speaker 2>hundred Page in Saint Lewis, So I would come off

643
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:05.000
<v Speaker 2>a full night shift and I drove over there. I'm like,

644
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to leave until this is resolved. I

645
00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.400
<v Speaker 2>ended up having to go back three times to get

646
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:16.920
<v Speaker 2>it resolved. And yeah, yeah, and like, well, in the

647
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:18.800
<v Speaker 2>first month wasn't so bad because I was still getting

648
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:23.599
<v Speaker 2>my civilian salary. But and when I was in there,

649
00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:28.079
<v Speaker 2>I just completely understood how the Army can get screwed up.

650
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.679
<v Speaker 2>There'd be like a pallette of two OHO one files

651
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:33.480
<v Speaker 2>sitting in the hallway, and like one of them would

652
00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:36.719
<v Speaker 2>fall off the top and get on the floor and

653
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.960
<v Speaker 2>people would start walking on it, and next thing, you know,

654
00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:42.519
<v Speaker 2>the whole files all over the place, all over the place,

655
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and somebody kind of scoops it back up, but it's

656
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:47.880
<v Speaker 2>probably missing a few pages and stuff like that. So

657
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.960
<v Speaker 2>I demobed around March, I think, And that was well

658
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.960
<v Speaker 2>before black Hawk Down happened. I did brief the weekend

659
00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:58.800
<v Speaker 2>of black Hawk Down, but we had no idea what

660
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:01.840
<v Speaker 2>was going on over there, you know, typical operations in

661
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:06.159
<v Speaker 2>Somalia at this point. We heard about it later later on.

662
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:15.199
<v Speaker 1>And when was it that you started coming up on

663
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:16.639
<v Speaker 1>company commander time?

664
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I had a few more, a few more things.

665
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:25.639
<v Speaker 2>A company command came up in like nineteen ninety five

666
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:28.360
<v Speaker 2>or nineteen ninety six. You know, I'd been at the

667
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:31.599
<v Speaker 2>J two too long. I was feeling like I needed

668
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:34.039
<v Speaker 2>to get green. I was. I've been a lieutenant, I

669
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.199
<v Speaker 2>was now a captain. We did have one other kind

670
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:40.480
<v Speaker 2>of interesting thing happen, and that was one week and

671
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:45.239
<v Speaker 2>I walked in and on a Friday, because you go

672
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.679
<v Speaker 2>on a friday if you're going to brief. And I

673
00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:51.760
<v Speaker 2>walked into the conference and there's a VTC going on

674
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.039
<v Speaker 2>and it's the uh, the briefing the air drop plan

675
00:37:55.159 --> 00:37:58.000
<v Speaker 2>for the Brigade of eighty second to go into Haiti. Yeah. Yeah,

676
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:02.079
<v Speaker 2>and so the air at that point, I think it

677
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:05.800
<v Speaker 2>might have been Air Mobility Command versus MAC and so

678
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:08.440
<v Speaker 2>we got that whole plan and I got a phone

679
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:11.000
<v Speaker 2>call before I had left. They said, hey, you know,

680
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:13.079
<v Speaker 2>we may send you down to Homestead to be an

681
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.039
<v Speaker 2>l ando down there. I'm like, okay, you know, I'll

682
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.840
<v Speaker 2>just I'll pack up some extra clothes and you know,

683
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:19.599
<v Speaker 2>I'll show up and just tell me, tell me where

684
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:22.159
<v Speaker 2>to go. And then on Saturday they're like, no, we

685
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:24.119
<v Speaker 2>think we got all this covered, so we don't need

686
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:26.119
<v Speaker 2>us to just go home. So I worked this plan

687
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.559
<v Speaker 2>for like two days. I'm like, go home and watch

688
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.800
<v Speaker 2>it on CNN. My roommate was like, hey, let's watch

689
00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:34.119
<v Speaker 2>something else. I'm like, no, we're going to watch CNN tonight.

690
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:36.880
<v Speaker 2>Why because we're going to watch see itn in tonight.

691
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.119
<v Speaker 2>So but yeah, I ended up going on to becoming

692
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:45.840
<v Speaker 2>a company commander. And again there's by that point them

693
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.719
<v Speaker 2>I debts had completely folded in Saint Louis. They were gone.

694
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:53.559
<v Speaker 2>There were no slots there. So there's the only way

695
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:54.960
<v Speaker 2>I was going to get a company command and was

696
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:58.000
<v Speaker 2>get like a zero one alpha branch and material. So

697
00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:01.679
<v Speaker 2>there was the second the three three fourth Infantry Regiment,

698
00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:06.920
<v Speaker 2>which is an Army reserve basic training company and they

699
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.199
<v Speaker 2>and they were located in my hometown. They had they

700
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:14.360
<v Speaker 2>had a debt up in my hometown of Quincy, and

701
00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:16.639
<v Speaker 2>the main unit was in Granite City, which is right

702
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.599
<v Speaker 2>across from Saint Louis. So I talked to the Battalian community.

703
00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:21.039
<v Speaker 2>He goes, you know, I need someone to be an

704
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:23.559
<v Speaker 2>S one and we got to merged three giants into

705
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.039
<v Speaker 2>one and then when you finish that, I'll give you

706
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:29.960
<v Speaker 2>a company command. I'm like, okay, that's good. So did that.

707
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:35.239
<v Speaker 2>We didn't do like a two week annual training. We

708
00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:37.679
<v Speaker 2>busted it all up into two weekends. So generally we

709
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.639
<v Speaker 2>were working two weekends a month, which was getting kind

710
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:43.800
<v Speaker 2>of old by the end of it. But so yeah,

711
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:48.360
<v Speaker 2>I took this basic Training Company command D Company three

712
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:53.719
<v Speaker 2>three fourth Infantry Regiment. So and I had a little

713
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:55.960
<v Speaker 2>bit of street cred, like I'm the mi G coming

714
00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.480
<v Speaker 2>out of nowhere, like like who is this guy? But

715
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:01.840
<v Speaker 2>I was all so from Quincy, so I got a

716
00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:06.719
<v Speaker 2>little bit of street cred there, and so I did

717
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:09.840
<v Speaker 2>that for three years. We did multiple you know, annual

718
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.159
<v Speaker 2>training cycles. I uh, we did two at Knox and

719
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.920
<v Speaker 2>we did one at Benning. The Benning one was kind

720
00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:22.840
<v Speaker 2>of just kind of weird because the Basic Combat Training

721
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:26.199
<v Speaker 2>Brigade was standing up at that point, and it only

722
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:28.679
<v Speaker 2>been the ITB at that point. So they stood up

723
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:32.280
<v Speaker 2>this other brigade to do basic training, and some of

724
00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:35.400
<v Speaker 2>the drill sergeants came from Ibing and a bunch of

725
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.119
<v Speaker 2>them were brand new, and they kind of dumped us

726
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:41.400
<v Speaker 2>on us on top of them to help them out,

727
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:43.119
<v Speaker 2>because I mean, we had drill sergeants that have been

728
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:47.679
<v Speaker 2>on the trail for twenty years doing that. So but

729
00:40:48.119 --> 00:40:50.559
<v Speaker 2>they were just doing really just dumb stuff. I'm just

730
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:52.880
<v Speaker 2>looking at this like what are you people doing. So

731
00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:55.599
<v Speaker 2>one of the things when we were at Fort Knox,

732
00:40:56.039 --> 00:40:58.440
<v Speaker 2>we were always we were always to be in the

733
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:01.880
<v Speaker 2>exact same uniform as the private like the privates are

734
00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:04.559
<v Speaker 2>wearing helmets, were wearing helmets, were in LB. They were

735
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.840
<v Speaker 2>an LB. And these these drill starts didn't want to

736
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.280
<v Speaker 2>do that, and so they were trying to figure out

737
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:13.480
<v Speaker 2>ways to carry water and they're doing like gatorade bottles

738
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and camelbacks and all this kind of stuff, and I'm like, dude,

739
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:22.039
<v Speaker 2>the Army has a thing that has canteens on it

740
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.639
<v Speaker 2>that carries water if you just want to wear it.

741
00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:33.920
<v Speaker 2>So that was also gosh. So the unit that relieved

742
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:36.199
<v Speaker 2>me was out of Chicago, and we tried to do

743
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:39.920
<v Speaker 2>a good handover to them, and I remember the company

744
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:42.159
<v Speaker 2>commander came in. I'm like, where are your guys. They're

745
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:44.400
<v Speaker 2>supposed to write seat ride left seat ride, and she's like, well,

746
00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:47.159
<v Speaker 2>my NCOs had a meeting today and they decided they

747
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:50.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to come in this early. I was like,

748
00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:53.920
<v Speaker 2>excuse me, your NCOs had a meeting and decided they

749
00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:57.960
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to come in this morning. Okay, So that

750
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:05.400
<v Speaker 2>was that was curious. But so then I finished out

751
00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:08.119
<v Speaker 2>of I finished my company command, and then there was

752
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:10.039
<v Speaker 2>an opportunity to go back to Transcom and it was

753
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:12.320
<v Speaker 2>a major slot, which is good because I needed that. Again,

754
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.199
<v Speaker 2>you got to manage your own career. So I actually

755
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:18.320
<v Speaker 2>went to the Advanced Airlift Tactics Training Center, which is

756
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.719
<v Speaker 2>a super cool course that the Air Force runs out

757
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:26.320
<v Speaker 2>of Rosecrans Air Base in Saint Joe, Missouri. So it's

758
00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:32.440
<v Speaker 2>really to teach airlifters how to do defensive tactics besides

759
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:36.679
<v Speaker 2>just to curl up the ball and die, so protect

760
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:41.280
<v Speaker 2>themselves from triple A missiles, aircraft things like that. So

761
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:43.920
<v Speaker 2>its a two weeks school. We went to Rosecrans for

762
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:46.320
<v Speaker 2>like four or five days and then we flew to

763
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:51.519
<v Speaker 2>Wachuka and which you know, I'm familiar with Wachuka. And

764
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:54.360
<v Speaker 2>then we did the flying phase and like they would

765
00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:56.400
<v Speaker 2>literally teach them to fly over a mountain, drop a

766
00:42:56.440 --> 00:42:58.760
<v Speaker 2>wing and fly down the other side like in a

767
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:03.039
<v Speaker 2>C one thirty. Also we had a C seventeen and

768
00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:05.599
<v Speaker 2>we had a G triple three there as well, and

769
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:08.960
<v Speaker 2>one of the guys, one of the pilots, overbanked a

770
00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:12.280
<v Speaker 2>C one thirty doing this training, so they had to

771
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:17.920
<v Speaker 2>ground that. I did win the Biggest Puker Award, although

772
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.159
<v Speaker 2>in my own defense, like they had to give it

773
00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:23.639
<v Speaker 2>to the Army guy. They just had to. But in

774
00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:25.639
<v Speaker 2>my own defense, I was the third person to puke

775
00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:29.760
<v Speaker 2>on that aircraft. The Hope air crew had been out

776
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:33.000
<v Speaker 2>drinking all night and they were definitely not eight hours

777
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:36.119
<v Speaker 2>throttle the bottle, so they were hungover. So we're taking

778
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:38.840
<v Speaker 2>off and I look over and the nave is on oxygen.

779
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:42.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, this is not a good sign. And we

780
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:45.000
<v Speaker 2>take off and that was the word they were doing,

781
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:48.840
<v Speaker 2>the terrain train flying and falling down the other side

782
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:56.840
<v Speaker 2>of a mountain. Yeah, in big trash haulers and so

783
00:43:57.400 --> 00:44:01.480
<v Speaker 2>the so he started puking, the light engineers start puking,

784
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:06.760
<v Speaker 2>and then I start puking, and then so apparently I

785
00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:08.840
<v Speaker 2>was like the biggest puker, even though I was the

786
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:12.000
<v Speaker 2>third one to puke on the aircraft. But we had

787
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:15.000
<v Speaker 2>to see seventeen. They brought in a third pilot to

788
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.239
<v Speaker 2>clear the wings to make sure they didn't hit anything

789
00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:22.159
<v Speaker 2>with the wings of the aircraft. So that was that

790
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:28.239
<v Speaker 2>was pretty interesting to do all that. So from there

791
00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:32.039
<v Speaker 2>I left my job at Truman in n MSU, which

792
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:36.239
<v Speaker 2>became Truman State and Army RTC was doing contractor jobs

793
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:40.679
<v Speaker 2>to teach RTC and they were hiring Guard, reserve and

794
00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:45.079
<v Speaker 2>active duty officers and at that point they didn't want

795
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:48.480
<v Speaker 2>anyone to know our status. They didn't want to want

796
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:51.320
<v Speaker 2>anyone to know our contractors. So we were we were

797
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.559
<v Speaker 2>our BDUs just like everyone else. So I had BDUs

798
00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:56.400
<v Speaker 2>with the cadet command patch and I had you know,

799
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:58.440
<v Speaker 2>stuff for my unit, and I just kind of swapped

800
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:02.400
<v Speaker 2>the blouses depending upon where I was at and I

801
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:05.960
<v Speaker 2>had opportunities. I was a captain straight up company command,

802
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:08.960
<v Speaker 2>and I had an opportunity to go to Missou Illinois

803
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:13.480
<v Speaker 2>State and soon ELOI University at Edwardsville. But I also

804
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:17.199
<v Speaker 2>had a class three MP forty Schmeiser and I couldn't

805
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:19.360
<v Speaker 2>take that to Illinois, So that kind of made my

806
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:23.760
<v Speaker 2>decision to go to Missou. So I went to Missoo

807
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.639
<v Speaker 2>and I started some history classes I taught the freshman.

808
00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:31.599
<v Speaker 2>I was a platoon TAC officer that summer. Greg Hammer,

809
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:36.079
<v Speaker 2>Panama Ranger, was my pack and CEO. Great guy. We

810
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:39.880
<v Speaker 2>had a blast. We had so much fun together and

811
00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:42.960
<v Speaker 2>when I was at Missoo, we had some interesting hits

812
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.400
<v Speaker 2>go through there. Some of the some are just people

813
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:48.760
<v Speaker 2>in general. Andrew Bailey, who's now the Deputy Director of

814
00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:51.559
<v Speaker 2>the FBI, he was a cadet there at that time.

815
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:55.239
<v Speaker 2>Will Eatens, who it was a KIA in about two

816
00:45:55.239 --> 00:45:58.119
<v Speaker 2>thousand and four, he was there, and then Sar Major

817
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Kevin Griffith was my my, uh my, he was the

818
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:07.199
<v Speaker 2>senior NCO there for a couple of years and he actually,

819
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.480
<v Speaker 2>uh he was one of the four that got killed

820
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:15.199
<v Speaker 2>in that suicide attack that flowed Goberg shoved the guy

821
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:19.480
<v Speaker 2>away and received the Medal of Honor. So it was

822
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:22.239
<v Speaker 2>kind of wild to see those people pop up here

823
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:33.360
<v Speaker 2>and there. Yeah, take a drink. Sure. So then nine

824
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:36.559
<v Speaker 2>to eleven happens and I'm at Missoo. I'm teaching Miszoo,

825
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:38.840
<v Speaker 2>I was doing PT. I was leading like incentive PT

826
00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:41.960
<v Speaker 2>that morning, and I come back and like, the first

827
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:44.639
<v Speaker 2>plane hits the tower. I'm kind of like, you know,

828
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:48.199
<v Speaker 2>B twenty five hit the Empire State Building World War two.

829
00:46:48.639 --> 00:46:50.960
<v Speaker 2>The second the second plane hit the tier, I'm like,

830
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:54.760
<v Speaker 2>damn it, this is al Kaeda and I just lost

831
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:59.719
<v Speaker 2>next year. So by ten o'clock I had an email said, hey,

832
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:03.679
<v Speaker 2>we need people to come in at the at Transcom,

833
00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:07.880
<v Speaker 2>which is my reserve and assignment at that point. And

834
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:10.920
<v Speaker 2>so I actually went down there on the Friday after

835
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:13.199
<v Speaker 2>nine to eleven and checked in and got on my

836
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.760
<v Speaker 2>jaywix terminal, watched Bush on the mound for my Jaywix terminal,

837
00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:20.800
<v Speaker 2>and my shift changeover was a guy who was you know,

838
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:22.960
<v Speaker 2>had been working on nine to eleven. He's like, Okay,

839
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:26.679
<v Speaker 2>we have fighters on strip alert at Lambert Field in

840
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Saint Louis, so if you see any threats, let us know.

841
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:32.280
<v Speaker 2>We can, you know, send some fighters after him. And

842
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:34.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, damn, I am like one hundred miles from

843
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:38.760
<v Speaker 2>where I grew up and this is insane. So went

844
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:41.280
<v Speaker 2>back to Miszoo and like, they kept telling us, we're

845
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:42.679
<v Speaker 2>going to get called up, We're going to get called up,

846
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:44.880
<v Speaker 2>We're going to get called up. Finally they called us

847
00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:47.119
<v Speaker 2>up on the first of October. My boss was the

848
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:49.320
<v Speaker 2>PMS was starting to be kind of a jerk about it.

849
00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:52.880
<v Speaker 2>And so when I finally did get called out, like

850
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:55.039
<v Speaker 2>two days in, he shoots me an email, Hey, since

851
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:57.239
<v Speaker 2>you were mobilized, you can't come back to work here.

852
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:02.960
<v Speaker 2>And I had I had just had an excellent performance evaluation.

853
00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:06.400
<v Speaker 2>There were no issues up to that point. I'm like really,

854
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:10.800
<v Speaker 2>So I printed it, sent it to US Department of Labor,

855
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:15.920
<v Speaker 2>filed a case one that got my job back. So

856
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:20.559
<v Speaker 2>in the beginning, we augmented the night team and so

857
00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:23.119
<v Speaker 2>we would do this terrorism VTC in the middle of

858
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:30.639
<v Speaker 2>the night, and there were so all the different agency CIA, DA,

859
00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.519
<v Speaker 2>Joined Terrorism Task Force and there was a Special Ops

860
00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Task Force. I think this was around the Rhino era

861
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:41.840
<v Speaker 2>when we were in Rhino and so like Joined Task

862
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.840
<v Speaker 2>Force whatever twenty or whatever they were would pop on

863
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:47.320
<v Speaker 2>and they were clearly in a tent. So we were

864
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:49.760
<v Speaker 2>sitting there one night and we're doing the roll call

865
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:55.360
<v Speaker 2>to make sure everyone's on and Task Force whatever it was,

866
00:48:55.480 --> 00:49:01.079
<v Speaker 2>twenty pops in and there's gunfire or like, damn, what's

867
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:05.960
<v Speaker 2>going on there? Are they getting overrun or whatever? And

868
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.119
<v Speaker 2>it gets muted and we hear it. Sorry, we were

869
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:17.360
<v Speaker 2>watching a movie, so that was a little nutty. But

870
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:21.440
<v Speaker 2>another funny thing that kind of happened is we are

871
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:23.800
<v Speaker 2>getting ready to put all those C seventeens into Rhino.

872
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:26.960
<v Speaker 2>I think they were moving in the hundred and first

873
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:30.119
<v Speaker 2>and maybe some Marines in there. And in the middle

874
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.239
<v Speaker 2>of the briefing, you know, the C seventeen can land

875
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:35.559
<v Speaker 2>on a dirt strip, like it has that capability. But

876
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:37.159
<v Speaker 2>the middle of the briefing that J three is like,

877
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:41.159
<v Speaker 2>have we done any studies about the long term effects

878
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:46.039
<v Speaker 2>of landing C seventeens on dirt runways? The room went quiet.

879
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's just looking at each other, and he's like, well,

880
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:56.480
<v Speaker 2>I guess we're about to find out. So so my

881
00:49:56.679 --> 00:50:01.119
<v Speaker 2>job eventually became the asymmetric threat she So we produced

882
00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:05.360
<v Speaker 2>the disomid. The briefing team had a group of briefers

883
00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:08.199
<v Speaker 2>that would then do the J two and the J

884
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:11.280
<v Speaker 2>three briefs in the morning. So they would come in

885
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:13.039
<v Speaker 2>at like midnight. I would come in at like three

886
00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:15.800
<v Speaker 2>or four, kind of read the intel, read their products.

887
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:19.000
<v Speaker 2>We'd brief it to the deputy or the current intelllogience chief,

888
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and then we'd brief it in the J two and

889
00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:22.280
<v Speaker 2>then we go and we brief it in the J

890
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:26.719
<v Speaker 2>three later in the morning. So one of the weirder

891
00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:29.840
<v Speaker 2>days is we walked in on a Monday and anaconda

892
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:33.599
<v Speaker 2>had just happened, and like the J three is like

893
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:37.800
<v Speaker 2>hair on fire, Like okay, we're air refueling direct apaches

894
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:44.360
<v Speaker 2>from or Campbell and we're rounding up all this ac

895
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:47.440
<v Speaker 2>one thirty AMO from all the world air refuel direct

896
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:49.639
<v Speaker 2>getting it over there. I know the briefing that the

897
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:52.519
<v Speaker 2>J three is like, two, how come you didn't tell

898
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:56.920
<v Speaker 2>us about this? And we're like that's because we're the

899
00:50:57.039 --> 00:50:59.760
<v Speaker 2>two Like we don't know what the J three is doing,

900
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:03.119
<v Speaker 2>what the two is going is doing, So they actually

901
00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:05.480
<v Speaker 2>had to assign an officer to keep track of that

902
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:08.880
<v Speaker 2>and keep them up to data what the three was

903
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:10.639
<v Speaker 2>doing because we've really had no idea. We were just

904
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:14.519
<v Speaker 2>reading intel traffic. So I did get to go to

905
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:18.559
<v Speaker 2>the OH. I did get a information war briefing that

906
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:20.880
<v Speaker 2>was super fascinating. I had a guy who kind of

907
00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:24.880
<v Speaker 2>worked information war. So we had this arm come in

908
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.840
<v Speaker 2>and it was a contractor contracting company and they were

909
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:32.239
<v Speaker 2>running the information war campaign for that war, and they

910
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:34.519
<v Speaker 2>gave us, you know, how they do things, how they

911
00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:38.559
<v Speaker 2>do information bracketing, like they would put stories out there

912
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:42.800
<v Speaker 2>in advance to get picked up by the media and

913
00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:51.239
<v Speaker 2>to drive their briefings. And it really changed my view

914
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:55.159
<v Speaker 2>on everything. These were just a political company that was

915
00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:59.880
<v Speaker 2>hired and they were doing that and they were on

916
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.960
<v Speaker 2>like a joint VTC every morning to get the messaging right.

917
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Just things that you don't really get to see a

918
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:11.639
<v Speaker 2>whole lot of. But I went to the Dynamics of

919
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:15.039
<v Speaker 2>International Terrorism course which was at Joint Special Ops you,

920
00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:22.119
<v Speaker 2>which was pretty amazing. Course, our speakers were General Doser,

921
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:28.440
<v Speaker 2>who had gotten kidnapped by the Red Brigades. We had

922
00:52:28.760 --> 00:52:31.880
<v Speaker 2>the real guy who was kidnapped by the farc and

923
00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:36.880
<v Speaker 2>proof of life we had the force protection guy from

924
00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:42.199
<v Speaker 2>Cobar Towers. So it was a legit course. It was

925
00:52:42.320 --> 00:52:48.159
<v Speaker 2>really really good. So yeah, I got released after a year.

926
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:53.159
<v Speaker 2>And in the middle of that, I got another issue

927
00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:56.360
<v Speaker 2>with my job in that the contract went from one

928
00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:59.719
<v Speaker 2>company from MPRI to Contact and I got an email

929
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:03.280
<v Speaker 2>from and They're like, you've never worked for us, so

930
00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:08.159
<v Speaker 2>you don't have any reemployment rights with us. So I

931
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:11.480
<v Speaker 2>went to my Department of Labor rep and I'm like, dude,

932
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:13.519
<v Speaker 2>what's going on here? Like, I don't know what to

933
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:15.880
<v Speaker 2>make of this? Think goes, no problem, got it, It's

934
00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:18.519
<v Speaker 2>a continuation of interest. So they ended up having to

935
00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:20.760
<v Speaker 2>hire like a dozen people back that they tried to

936
00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:27.400
<v Speaker 2>screw over. So so then I went back to Missoo

937
00:53:28.280 --> 00:53:31.159
<v Speaker 2>that reserve unit and oh yeah, another thing is I

938
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:33.519
<v Speaker 2>did do is I did brief at the ten oh

939
00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:38.760
<v Speaker 2>three Tipfit Briefing or Iraqi Freedom And that was in

940
00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:42.920
<v Speaker 2>February of two. So I went into the bulk, got

941
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:46.079
<v Speaker 2>right into the plan and then presented my briefing before

942
00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the assembled crew and the tipfit meeting is like a

943
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:52.480
<v Speaker 2>big food fight for everyone wants to get their folks

944
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:55.480
<v Speaker 2>in early, Like do you take the loggies in early?

945
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:57.360
<v Speaker 2>Do you take the infantry in early? Do you do

946
00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:00.280
<v Speaker 2>those kinds of things, like what's the right flo for

947
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:03.960
<v Speaker 2>all this where everything works the best? So that was

948
00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:08.440
<v Speaker 2>pretty interesting. So I went back to Missou and then

949
00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:12.519
<v Speaker 2>I was back at RTC. Everything's going great, and then

950
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:16.039
<v Speaker 2>I get another email, Hey from my company. Hey, we

951
00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:19.079
<v Speaker 2>are overstaffed at your position and you're the junior employee,

952
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:23.039
<v Speaker 2>so you have to go. I'm like, are you kidding me?

953
00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:27.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm the original guy, Like I'm the first guy, Like

954
00:54:27.639 --> 00:54:29.639
<v Speaker 2>none of this happened without me getting called up a

955
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:32.199
<v Speaker 2>year ago or a year and a half ago. So

956
00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:35.079
<v Speaker 2>again I called him Dennis McElroy a US Department of Labor.

957
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:38.480
<v Speaker 2>He's like like, what are these people thinking? So again

958
00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:41.599
<v Speaker 2>I got reinstated again. Third time I had to get

959
00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:43.960
<v Speaker 2>my job back. Now I felt awful though, because the

960
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:48.480
<v Speaker 2>guy who had taken my position, buddy of mine named

961
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Terry Heisler, he Signal Corps guy, so he was losing

962
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:54.920
<v Speaker 2>his job. But I actually called trans Comm and got

963
00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:56.679
<v Speaker 2>him hooked up with the j six because he was

964
00:54:56.679 --> 00:54:59.880
<v Speaker 2>a Signal Corps dude, and so he got orders to

965
00:54:59.880 --> 00:55:03.159
<v Speaker 2>go to go to Transcom J six for like a year,

966
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:05.159
<v Speaker 2>and it actually worked out for him because the daughter

967
00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:09.440
<v Speaker 2>got really sick with cancer and needed that medical attention

968
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:14.239
<v Speaker 2>that would be paid for, so so that actually worked

969
00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:18.280
<v Speaker 2>out for him. He now owns a beer garden in Washington, Missouri,

970
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:23.079
<v Speaker 2>so John G's if you ever go there. So so really,

971
00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:29.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean from there, just continued to teach RTC. Summer

972
00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:31.880
<v Speaker 2>of seven, I walked, I walked stick Slanes, and I

973
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:35.119
<v Speaker 2>was doing pretty well. I felt pretty good about all that.

974
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:38.840
<v Speaker 2>So I was at the Van's camp up in Lewis

975
00:55:40.119 --> 00:55:42.119
<v Speaker 2>walk in I don't know, five seven miles a day

976
00:55:42.159 --> 00:55:45.079
<v Speaker 2>with gear. I got back and I was at a

977
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:48.519
<v Speaker 2>World War two division reunion to connect with some vetsite

978
00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:50.880
<v Speaker 2>in New and I had this massive chest pain. I

979
00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:52.599
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh shit, what is this? And I went

980
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:55.639
<v Speaker 2>white and then I recovered. I went and saw the

981
00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:58.559
<v Speaker 2>doctor and they didn't know what it was. So then

982
00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:02.039
<v Speaker 2>I went to cup Weeks later, I was at Kansas

983
00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:06.119
<v Speaker 2>City for drill and I had another one of those

984
00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:08.639
<v Speaker 2>in the heart in a hotel room. I was by myself,

985
00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:10.880
<v Speaker 2>so I called nine one one ended up in the hospital,

986
00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:14.880
<v Speaker 2>and really that started like a year long ordeal for me.

987
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:19.519
<v Speaker 2>My spleen was destroying my red blood cells and my

988
00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:21.719
<v Speaker 2>hemo globan count was like four point eight where it's

989
00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:25.880
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be like fifteen to eighteen. So it was

990
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:27.840
<v Speaker 2>really my spleen that was causing that. So I went

991
00:56:27.880 --> 00:56:33.000
<v Speaker 2>through that for a period of time, and then it

992
00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:34.920
<v Speaker 2>was really kind of time for me to get out

993
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:37.119
<v Speaker 2>of Missoo. Like Missoo, I was just kind of done

994
00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:41.679
<v Speaker 2>with it, and so I went ahead and got a

995
00:56:41.800 --> 00:56:44.360
<v Speaker 2>job at Missouri Military Academy. Although the last year we

996
00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:46.599
<v Speaker 2>were there, we got the MacArthur Award for best RTC

997
00:56:46.719 --> 00:56:50.480
<v Speaker 2>program Western Mississippi, and we had failed an inspection like

998
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:54.519
<v Speaker 2>four years before horribly. I mean I thought my boss

999
00:56:54.639 --> 00:56:58.119
<v Speaker 2>was going to jump over a table at our personnel person.

1000
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:07.920
<v Speaker 2>But so I also changed reserve units. I got out

1001
00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:09.599
<v Speaker 2>of the JTAU. I just felt like I had done

1002
00:57:09.639 --> 00:57:11.960
<v Speaker 2>everything I could there, and again it's your free agent,

1003
00:57:12.280 --> 00:57:14.039
<v Speaker 2>you got to go find another job. So I actually

1004
00:57:14.119 --> 00:57:16.360
<v Speaker 2>found the Command in General Staff College, which I had

1005
00:57:16.360 --> 00:57:18.960
<v Speaker 2>a background in education, that seemed to be like a

1006
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:21.000
<v Speaker 2>good fit. So they put me in as the S

1007
00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:24.199
<v Speaker 2>three and then I could become a student after that,

1008
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:26.840
<v Speaker 2>which was perfect because I do wasn't have to do

1009
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:29.280
<v Speaker 2>like two weekends. So my first job as the S

1010
00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:32.360
<v Speaker 2>three was to give a PT test to eighty lieutenant

1011
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:39.239
<v Speaker 2>colonels and that was a good time. And so I

1012
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:45.679
<v Speaker 2>ended up finishing the course and became a instructor, and

1013
00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:48.440
<v Speaker 2>then I eventually became a lead instructor and then I

1014
00:57:48.519 --> 00:57:52.199
<v Speaker 2>became a head of school for that unit. On the

1015
00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:54.960
<v Speaker 2>civilian side, I went to Missouri Military Academy as a

1016
00:57:55.239 --> 00:57:58.800
<v Speaker 2>director of College Placement Counseling, So it was again another

1017
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:02.840
<v Speaker 2>uniform job I did testing college placement toss history military history.

1018
00:58:03.679 --> 00:58:06.239
<v Speaker 2>One of the kids that was there some people may

1019
00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:09.519
<v Speaker 2>know Ian Ives. He was a combat cameraman that got

1020
00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:14.199
<v Speaker 2>blown up in Afghanistan in twenty nineteen. So he was

1021
00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:16.320
<v Speaker 2>one of my kids there and he's doing okay. I

1022
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:18.079
<v Speaker 2>think he lost an eye and jacked up his arm

1023
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:21.719
<v Speaker 2>pretty good. But so I was there for six years.

1024
00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:28.440
<v Speaker 2>It was pretty toxic. So then I ended up looking

1025
00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:32.480
<v Speaker 2>for another job. And my final job in the Army

1026
00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:35.079
<v Speaker 2>Reserve was that I had to set up a schoolhouse

1027
00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:39.840
<v Speaker 2>at Camp Parks, California, which is where the MythBusters blow

1028
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:45.519
<v Speaker 2>everything up. So it's right across the mountains from Oakland, California,

1029
00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and so as a new side I had to go

1030
00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:49.519
<v Speaker 2>out there, had to figure out however was going to

1031
00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:52.880
<v Speaker 2>get there, messing classrooms, all that kind of stuff. And

1032
00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:55.480
<v Speaker 2>then when we did our first iteration out there, it

1033
00:58:55.599 --> 00:59:01.639
<v Speaker 2>was March of twenty fifteen, and I had four classrooms,

1034
00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:04.800
<v Speaker 2>maybe eight instructors, and at one point I had like

1035
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:07.920
<v Speaker 2>twelve inspectors there on the ground. And these are all

1036
00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:10.159
<v Speaker 2>people that got orders to come out to California in

1037
00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:11.840
<v Speaker 2>the winter, and then they would check in with us

1038
00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:13.840
<v Speaker 2>for like an hour or two hours and say everything's

1039
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:15.880
<v Speaker 2>going great, and then we wouldn't see him for four days.

1040
00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:23.360
<v Speaker 2>So but yeah, I ended up retiring from there, and

1041
00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:25.920
<v Speaker 2>then I ended up at the Catholic school that I'm

1042
00:59:25.960 --> 00:59:29.960
<v Speaker 2>at right now because I was friends with the principal

1043
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:33.079
<v Speaker 2>and she wanted the program placement program that I built

1044
00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:36.000
<v Speaker 2>at the Military Academy. I kind of turned around that program,

1045
00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:40.880
<v Speaker 2>and so I ended up getting hired in twenty fourteen

1046
00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and jumped in there and basically start doing a lot

1047
00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:45.119
<v Speaker 2>of the same things I was doing at the Military Academy,

1048
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:47.440
<v Speaker 2>except this time I got to work with girls, so

1049
00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:50.199
<v Speaker 2>working with you know, working well with boys before and

1050
00:59:50.239 --> 00:59:52.239
<v Speaker 2>now there are boys and girls. Although our kids are

1051
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:56.639
<v Speaker 2>so sweet, they're great kids. So yeah, I'm in my

1052
00:59:56.760 --> 01:00:00.079
<v Speaker 2>twelfth year there. Fourth principal went through COVID school. We

1053
01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:03.239
<v Speaker 2>stayed open where the public schools closed. So I do

1054
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:07.199
<v Speaker 2>the master Schedule Career Center, which is like our votech center.

1055
01:00:07.679 --> 01:00:09.679
<v Speaker 2>Coordinate with that. I'm like the I'll know for that.

1056
01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:14.159
<v Speaker 2>Mobley Area Community College were the largest earner of dual

1057
01:00:14.199 --> 01:00:17.480
<v Speaker 2>credits for Mobley Area Community College, although we were one

1058
01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:21.719
<v Speaker 2>of the smaller schools testing. Just drop a few names

1059
01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:23.960
<v Speaker 2>of some kids we've had through the school. This guy

1060
01:00:24.039 --> 01:00:25.760
<v Speaker 2>in Brooklyn, you might know a boy the name of

1061
01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:30.079
<v Speaker 2>Michael Porter Junior plays for the Mets, and I.

1062
01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:32.159
<v Speaker 1>Don't know anything about baseball, I'm afraid.

1063
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:34.599
<v Speaker 2>From Mets.

1064
01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:36.960
<v Speaker 1>The only person from Brooklyn that people seem to be

1065
01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:39.280
<v Speaker 1>talking about this week, it's Jeffrey Epstein.

1066
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:46.119
<v Speaker 2>Imagine that. Imagine that. Well, anyway, they're talking about trading

1067
01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:49.079
<v Speaker 2>him from Brooklyn to Detroit. But so, he was a

1068
01:00:49.159 --> 01:00:50.599
<v Speaker 2>kid at our school for a couple of years. His

1069
01:00:50.679 --> 01:00:53.880
<v Speaker 2>brother John Tay a really good kid, but he got

1070
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:56.440
<v Speaker 2>caught up in that whole gambling thing up with the

1071
01:00:56.519 --> 01:00:59.719
<v Speaker 2>Toronto Raptors. Oh yeah, so, and he got banned for

1072
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:05.000
<v Speaker 2>a livefe from that. And then cam Lee is a

1073
01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:07.320
<v Speaker 2>kid that just got picked up by the Baltimore Orioles.

1074
01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:09.159
<v Speaker 2>And then there's another kid who was just kind of

1075
01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:13.280
<v Speaker 2>floating around by the name of Sophie Cunningham, who you

1076
01:01:13.400 --> 01:01:16.440
<v Speaker 2>might know of her as a player on the Indiana Beaver.

1077
01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:20.000
<v Speaker 2>She's a she's like the enforcer for Kaitlin Clark. So

1078
01:01:20.199 --> 01:01:22.519
<v Speaker 2>she didn't go to my school, but she she was

1079
01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:24.800
<v Speaker 2>the same age and went through eighth grade with the

1080
01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:27.559
<v Speaker 2>kids at my school, and so she was always around

1081
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:29.480
<v Speaker 2>and I actually knew her grandma. So those are kind

1082
01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:33.199
<v Speaker 2>of all my brushes with Christmas. Yeah. Yeah, So it's

1083
01:01:33.280 --> 01:01:35.599
<v Speaker 2>it's been interesting. We've had a lot of a lot

1084
01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:38.039
<v Speaker 2>of kind of known people that I brushed up against

1085
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:40.880
<v Speaker 2>here and there. So it's been it's been a good run.

1086
01:01:41.719 --> 01:01:44.760
<v Speaker 1>And how did the writing come into the picture? How

1087
01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:47.440
<v Speaker 1>did that start for you? Yeah?

1088
01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Really it was again, I got a BAMA in history,

1089
01:01:51.199 --> 01:01:55.440
<v Speaker 2>and uh, that's what you do, you write, and so

1090
01:01:56.639 --> 01:01:59.800
<v Speaker 2>when it came time to write my master's thesis, I

1091
01:02:00.199 --> 01:02:02.599
<v Speaker 2>discouraged to write anything military that like, you can get

1092
01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:05.239
<v Speaker 2>a job if you write something military. So I was

1093
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:07.239
<v Speaker 2>a little bit desperate for a topic. So I was

1094
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:13.480
<v Speaker 2>watching the movie Convoy with based upon the song the C. W.

1095
01:02:13.719 --> 01:02:16.519
<v Speaker 2>McCall song Chris Christofferson. I'm watching this movie, I'm like,

1096
01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:19.920
<v Speaker 2>this is an amazing expression of American culture. So I

1097
01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:22.840
<v Speaker 2>actually wrote my master's thesis as a cultural history of

1098
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:26.880
<v Speaker 2>CB Radios, which is actually my first book. In fact,

1099
01:02:26.920 --> 01:02:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I argue that it's that it's really America's first social

1100
01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:38.360
<v Speaker 2>media platform. So there's that. The second book was a

1101
01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:42.760
<v Speaker 2>just a paper I turned into about a doctor who

1102
01:02:42.800 --> 01:02:45.159
<v Speaker 2>gets some self arrested down in southern Moon County and

1103
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:48.679
<v Speaker 2>gets some stuff for released by the president. And then

1104
01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:53.280
<v Speaker 2>third book was a series of articles I said together

1105
01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:58.480
<v Speaker 2>about army chaplain's like what they what were their qualifications,

1106
01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:00.480
<v Speaker 2>what equipment did they have, and what were like the

1107
01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:05.280
<v Speaker 2>basic soldier religious items. And then the third book, a

1108
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:13.519
<v Speaker 2>fourth book involves this guy right here, Yeah, I wrote.

1109
01:03:13.800 --> 01:03:18.400
<v Speaker 2>I wrote the book War Pigeons, which is about the

1110
01:03:19.159 --> 01:03:23.079
<v Speaker 2>pigeon corep and how the Signal Pigeon Corps operated and

1111
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:27.280
<v Speaker 2>how a signal pigeon company operated in the army and

1112
01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:29.679
<v Speaker 2>all the different equipment and things like that. So that

1113
01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:31.280
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of fun to write, and I get

1114
01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:34.679
<v Speaker 2>to speak about that one in Missouri. And then my

1115
01:03:34.840 --> 01:03:37.840
<v Speaker 2>fifth book was about a small town in Missouri that

1116
01:03:37.960 --> 01:03:42.079
<v Speaker 2>burned in ninety minutes in October twenty second, twenty twenty two,

1117
01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:46.599
<v Speaker 2>combine spin a wall of flame at them at the town.

1118
01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:49.679
<v Speaker 2>Eight minutes later, the first home caught on fire, and

1119
01:03:49.800 --> 01:03:52.480
<v Speaker 2>ninety minutes later, half of this town of twenty eight

1120
01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:54.639
<v Speaker 2>people's gone. Is cool?

1121
01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.679
<v Speaker 1>What led up to that? Just out of curiosity, like

1122
01:03:57.719 --> 01:04:00.159
<v Speaker 1>how did it burn so quickly? That's like kind kind

1123
01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:01.880
<v Speaker 1>of unheard of in this day and age, right.

1124
01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:05.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's certainly unheard of in the Midwest, like California,

1125
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:06.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, still big Jing.

1126
01:04:07.039 --> 01:04:08.480
<v Speaker 1>I wrote a book about wildfire.

1127
01:04:08.639 --> 01:04:11.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean I read a book about wildfires

1128
01:04:11.880 --> 01:04:16.400
<v Speaker 2>before wildfires were cool in Hawaii and California. But it

1129
01:04:16.519 --> 01:04:19.000
<v Speaker 2>was a it was a red flag warning average twenty

1130
01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:21.199
<v Speaker 2>mile prior winds. There was a defect in the in

1131
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:25.679
<v Speaker 2>the combine and he was going basically east to west.

1132
01:04:25.719 --> 01:04:27.400
<v Speaker 2>The winds were coming from the south, and it just

1133
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:29.840
<v Speaker 2>put out this wall of flame quarter mile wall of flame,

1134
01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:33.199
<v Speaker 2>and those winds just pushed it into the first homes

1135
01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:36.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know people people looked out their doors and

1136
01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:38.960
<v Speaker 2>there's a wall of flame coming at their house. So

1137
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:43.159
<v Speaker 2>it was a little crazy. And the first responder. I

1138
01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:45.480
<v Speaker 2>have all the audio recordings for it. I have the

1139
01:04:45.519 --> 01:04:48.559
<v Speaker 2>nine one one call and I have the uh the

1140
01:04:49.639 --> 01:04:52.639
<v Speaker 2>like the first responder. And so there's like a twenty

1141
01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:55.440
<v Speaker 2>two year old firefighter. He lives in the fire station

1142
01:04:55.599 --> 01:05:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Volunteer Fire Department, you know, five acre brush Fire, Woldridge, Missouri.

1143
01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:03.880
<v Speaker 2>He rolls down there, he shows up in the whole

1144
01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:08.039
<v Speaker 2>town's catching on fire, and he's by himself. Wow, And

1145
01:05:09.559 --> 01:05:12.119
<v Speaker 2>you can hear it in his voice. He's like he's stressed,

1146
01:05:12.199 --> 01:05:15.920
<v Speaker 2>but he's like immediately called for second tone and then

1147
01:05:16.039 --> 01:05:19.760
<v Speaker 2>third tones to get backups. He started evacuating the town.

1148
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:22.400
<v Speaker 2>He got on the speaker on his brush truck and

1149
01:05:22.599 --> 01:05:25.559
<v Speaker 2>told people to get out of there and called for backup.

1150
01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:29.000
<v Speaker 2>And he's really a he's a little bit of a hero.

1151
01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:32.519
<v Speaker 2>Well he did everything right, let's just say that. Yeah,

1152
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:37.039
<v Speaker 2>but the people in that town, only one family had insurance.

1153
01:05:37.639 --> 01:05:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Everyone else lost everything. They didn't get anything from FEMA.

1154
01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:44.400
<v Speaker 2>It's just kind of a really really sad story about

1155
01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:47.639
<v Speaker 2>what happened there. But It was the largest mutual eight

1156
01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:49.679
<v Speaker 2>fire response in the history of the state of Missouri.

1157
01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:53.400
<v Speaker 2>One hundred and sixty three firefighters from sixty six departments

1158
01:05:54.360 --> 01:05:58.079
<v Speaker 2>showed up to that. So that was And I only

1159
01:05:58.159 --> 01:06:02.320
<v Speaker 2>got into that story because we were I'd heard about it.

1160
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:04.159
<v Speaker 2>I was out of town when it happened, and I

1161
01:06:04.239 --> 01:06:06.000
<v Speaker 2>heard about it. We had some families that lived in

1162
01:06:06.079 --> 01:06:12.159
<v Speaker 2>that area from the school, and I just I called

1163
01:06:12.199 --> 01:06:14.360
<v Speaker 2>the family contact. I'm like, you guys need help. We've

1164
01:06:14.360 --> 01:06:16.719
<v Speaker 2>got like a day off coming up here. We can

1165
01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:18.519
<v Speaker 2>get some kids to come down and help them. Like

1166
01:06:18.679 --> 01:06:21.400
<v Speaker 2>made some calls. Yeah, sure. We had forty four kids

1167
01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:24.119
<v Speaker 2>show up in parents and we didn't have to tell

1168
01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:27.039
<v Speaker 2>them to do a damn thing. Like they saw what

1169
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:28.400
<v Speaker 2>they had to do. And the only thing that was

1170
01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:34.320
<v Speaker 2>left was like doorknobs and appliances, and you know, some

1171
01:06:34.440 --> 01:06:36.519
<v Speaker 2>kids were digging around and found some rings and a

1172
01:06:36.559 --> 01:06:41.039
<v Speaker 2>few other personal artifacts, but it was it was not good.

1173
01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:45.639
<v Speaker 2>And then they called us and wanted us to come back,

1174
01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and so we went back over Christmas and New Year's

1175
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:49.639
<v Speaker 2>and a couple of weeks later had this brilliant idea

1176
01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:51.960
<v Speaker 2>to write a book about it, and I thought, oh,

1177
01:06:52.079 --> 01:06:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Hunter page book, you know, firefighters being helpful and safety

1178
01:06:56.440 --> 01:06:58.480
<v Speaker 2>and all that kind of stuff, And then I got

1179
01:06:58.559 --> 01:07:01.199
<v Speaker 2>into it and got pretty dark different points. But it

1180
01:07:01.320 --> 01:07:04.440
<v Speaker 2>came out on the anniversary of the fire. Wow.

1181
01:07:06.280 --> 01:07:08.079
<v Speaker 1>No, I mean, it's it's great that you were able

1182
01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:11.440
<v Speaker 1>to chronicle that piece of local history.

1183
01:07:13.599 --> 01:07:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's it's really a crazy story when you

1184
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:19.599
<v Speaker 2>get into it, and just and I'm and the problem

1185
01:07:19.639 --> 01:07:23.039
<v Speaker 2>with writing that book is, like twenty things are happening

1186
01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:25.960
<v Speaker 2>literally at the sasire, so you have to kind of

1187
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:31.440
<v Speaker 2>interweave and introduce characters and things like that. So my fifth,

1188
01:07:31.519 --> 01:07:34.599
<v Speaker 2>my sixth book was on the US military hand cart,

1189
01:07:34.840 --> 01:07:38.280
<v Speaker 2>which I know people are super excited about that, but

1190
01:07:39.159 --> 01:07:43.199
<v Speaker 2>so the US military used hand carts from World War One,

1191
01:07:43.320 --> 01:07:47.119
<v Speaker 2>really untiled Korea, so the whole purpose of them were

1192
01:07:47.199 --> 01:07:52.760
<v Speaker 2>to carry heavy weapons. And so before half tracks existed,

1193
01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:56.679
<v Speaker 2>the plan for mechanized infantry was to use ten and

1194
01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:58.800
<v Speaker 2>a half trucks. And this is in the mid nineteen thirties.

1195
01:07:59.400 --> 01:08:01.119
<v Speaker 2>So the and a half trucks would go up to

1196
01:08:01.159 --> 01:08:03.079
<v Speaker 2>a couple of miles short or maybe like a mile

1197
01:08:03.159 --> 01:08:06.280
<v Speaker 2>short of the front lines as the tanks rolled forward,

1198
01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:08.719
<v Speaker 2>and then these guys would dismount and they would take

1199
01:08:08.760 --> 01:08:13.519
<v Speaker 2>their weapons on these carts, and so the army perfected

1200
01:08:13.559 --> 01:08:17.640
<v Speaker 2>that design. But then by World War Two starting, they

1201
01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:19.479
<v Speaker 2>had half tracks, they had jeeps, they had things that

1202
01:08:19.520 --> 01:08:26.119
<v Speaker 2>they can mount weapons. So they ended up they ended

1203
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:31.399
<v Speaker 2>up giving them to airborne units and assault units that

1204
01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:33.960
<v Speaker 2>may not have their equipment. So a lot of people

1205
01:08:34.039 --> 01:08:36.359
<v Speaker 2>refer to them as airborne carts, but they really predate

1206
01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:40.479
<v Speaker 2>airborne by like five years. So that was my sixth

1207
01:08:40.560 --> 01:08:43.239
<v Speaker 2>and now my seventh Spy Catchers, interrogators, and analysts, and

1208
01:08:43.279 --> 01:08:44.680
<v Speaker 2>that's why we're here today. Yeah.

1209
01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So tell us about this book. What this one's about.

1210
01:08:50.880 --> 01:08:55.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, most most history about intelligence and World War two

1211
01:08:55.159 --> 01:08:59.199
<v Speaker 2>focuses on really two things, the oss and glorious bastards

1212
01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:04.800
<v Speaker 2>that kind of stuff in Bletchley Park, like the whole

1213
01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:08.560
<v Speaker 2>imitation game and things like that, And so I knew

1214
01:09:08.600 --> 01:09:11.079
<v Speaker 2>that there were a lot of other folks on the ground,

1215
01:09:11.239 --> 01:09:14.880
<v Speaker 2>so I went through to kind of document all of

1216
01:09:14.960 --> 01:09:17.399
<v Speaker 2>these other moss which are really the foundation for what

1217
01:09:17.560 --> 01:09:20.800
<v Speaker 2>we have in am I today. And I started off

1218
01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:23.159
<v Speaker 2>with doctrine and looked at it and it's really not

1219
01:09:23.399 --> 01:09:27.520
<v Speaker 2>that different than what I learned in the eighties. Late

1220
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:32.319
<v Speaker 2>eighties intelligence for the commander. They have a decision support template.

1221
01:09:33.159 --> 01:09:35.520
<v Speaker 2>That's part of that. It's a little slightly different. They

1222
01:09:35.560 --> 01:09:38.199
<v Speaker 2>have essential elements of information, which is really like their

1223
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:43.560
<v Speaker 2>pirs at that point. But so I documented that and

1224
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:47.840
<v Speaker 2>then I went through the pipelines of where these soldiers

1225
01:09:47.880 --> 01:09:50.720
<v Speaker 2>came from. Now, the US didn't have really any serious

1226
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:54.720
<v Speaker 2>capability before World War Two. They had like sixteen counter

1227
01:09:54.800 --> 01:09:58.560
<v Speaker 2>intelligence police. There were some sick Ginners and that was

1228
01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:00.640
<v Speaker 2>about it. But so they went to the Britz. They said,

1229
01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:02.279
<v Speaker 2>how do you guys do this? And they gave him

1230
01:10:02.279 --> 01:10:05.319
<v Speaker 2>a template and that's what they ended up using. So

1231
01:10:05.600 --> 01:10:11.119
<v Speaker 2>they stood up a schoolhouse at Camp Ritchie, Maryland, and

1232
01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:17.640
<v Speaker 2>the schoolhouse trained the photo interpreters and order battle teams,

1233
01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:24.199
<v Speaker 2>and then they also trained the ETO based linguists and

1234
01:10:24.239 --> 01:10:28.079
<v Speaker 2>a lot of those were expat German Jews. Again, they're

1235
01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:29.800
<v Speaker 2>called the Richie Boys because.

1236
01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:31.600
<v Speaker 1>They had Henry Kissingers in the book.

1237
01:10:33.199 --> 01:10:36.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Kissinger is a little bit different. A Kissinger was

1238
01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:38.960
<v Speaker 2>actually never a school trained in my guy, and the

1239
01:10:39.039 --> 01:10:42.159
<v Speaker 2>guy that he wrote on the Coattails with was also

1240
01:10:42.439 --> 01:10:44.800
<v Speaker 2>not a school trained guy. In fact, Fritz Kramer, the

1241
01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:46.600
<v Speaker 2>other guy, was trying to get into the OSS and

1242
01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:48.840
<v Speaker 2>they didn't take him, so he got drafted as an

1243
01:10:48.880 --> 01:10:53.079
<v Speaker 2>infantryman and he was up on a platform yelling during

1244
01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:55.880
<v Speaker 2>a training exercise. I mean, he's like an infantry private

1245
01:10:56.199 --> 01:10:57.960
<v Speaker 2>yelling at them in German to try and make the

1246
01:10:58.039 --> 01:11:02.520
<v Speaker 2>training seem better, and the division commanders there, he's like,

1247
01:11:02.600 --> 01:11:07.399
<v Speaker 2>who's that guy? Who's that guy there? So they actually

1248
01:11:07.439 --> 01:11:09.199
<v Speaker 2>actually moved him into the G two shop and he

1249
01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:12.640
<v Speaker 2>became friends with Kissinger, and our Kissinger was a high

1250
01:11:12.680 --> 01:11:15.479
<v Speaker 2>IQ guy. He was going to Brooklyn College maybe or

1251
01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:18.119
<v Speaker 2>somewhere like City College of New York to become an accountant.

1252
01:11:19.079 --> 01:11:22.359
<v Speaker 2>And he gets drafted and he gets he's a high

1253
01:11:22.439 --> 01:11:24.920
<v Speaker 2>AQ guy. So he gets put in this army specialized

1254
01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:28.000
<v Speaker 2>training program which took high AQ guys, and they sent

1255
01:11:28.079 --> 01:11:31.920
<v Speaker 2>him to college to try and have them get degrees

1256
01:11:32.039 --> 01:11:34.840
<v Speaker 2>and operate the more high tech equipment. In nineteen forty five,

1257
01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:37.560
<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty six, nineteen forty seven, as the war goes on,

1258
01:11:38.760 --> 01:11:41.920
<v Speaker 2>so you know, Kissinger goes to a college in Pennsylvania

1259
01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:46.840
<v Speaker 2>and you know, doing well, and the Army in the

1260
01:11:46.840 --> 01:11:50.279
<v Speaker 2>spring of nineteen forty four discovers they have a personnel shortage.

1261
01:11:50.680 --> 01:11:52.840
<v Speaker 2>They have an infantrymen shortage, and where can we get

1262
01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:58.720
<v Speaker 2>more infantrymen. There's three hundred thousand college boys. So they

1263
01:11:59.239 --> 01:12:02.319
<v Speaker 2>knocked the as from three hundred thousand to thirty thousand

1264
01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:05.279
<v Speaker 2>and sent all those guys on orders to the infantry divisions.

1265
01:12:07.239 --> 01:12:09.800
<v Speaker 2>So Kissinger shows up to g Company of the three

1266
01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:15.359
<v Speaker 2>three fifth Infantry, just a normal infantry company, and he

1267
01:12:15.479 --> 01:12:17.600
<v Speaker 2>madily gets poison ivy and is in the hospital for

1268
01:12:17.680 --> 01:12:21.079
<v Speaker 2>forty five days. And then they did some sort of

1269
01:12:21.079 --> 01:12:23.479
<v Speaker 2>a psychological test with him and they found that he

1270
01:12:23.560 --> 01:12:25.439
<v Speaker 2>wasn't really suited to be an infantryman, so they made

1271
01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:29.760
<v Speaker 2>him like a driver. And then eventually his connections with Kramer,

1272
01:12:30.039 --> 01:12:32.840
<v Speaker 2>who talks to the division commander, gets him assigned to

1273
01:12:32.920 --> 01:12:36.520
<v Speaker 2>the counter Intelligence Corps and he ends up working in

1274
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:39.960
<v Speaker 2>the counter intelligence Corps. And Kramer gets a German garrison

1275
01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:44.520
<v Speaker 2>to surrender of like fifty guys by himself in like

1276
01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:48.279
<v Speaker 2>November December of forty four. He literally just walks into

1277
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:50.920
<v Speaker 2>this town and talks to him and gets them to surrender.

1278
01:12:51.039 --> 01:12:53.920
<v Speaker 2>So he gets a field promotion, and then Kissinger is

1279
01:12:53.920 --> 01:12:58.960
<v Speaker 2>given this assignment to stand up like civil affairs operations

1280
01:12:59.000 --> 01:13:02.239
<v Speaker 2>in this one German village and he gets everything going

1281
01:13:02.319 --> 01:13:04.399
<v Speaker 2>in a period of like two weeks, and he gets

1282
01:13:04.399 --> 01:13:09.079
<v Speaker 2>promoted to sergeant. They tried to get him constructive credit

1283
01:13:09.159 --> 01:13:11.640
<v Speaker 2>to be a CIC agent, and the Army said no,

1284
01:13:11.920 --> 01:13:15.760
<v Speaker 2>and he did actually get his He actually did become

1285
01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:18.039
<v Speaker 2>a certified agent, but that was not until like in

1286
01:13:18.119 --> 01:13:24.640
<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty seven. So Kramer and Kissinger actually became long

1287
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:27.479
<v Speaker 2>term friends. And the book actually has a picture of

1288
01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Kramer and Kissinger in the office with Nixon. Yeah, it's

1289
01:13:31.960 --> 01:13:32.439
<v Speaker 2>pretty cool.

1290
01:13:35.800 --> 01:13:37.640
<v Speaker 1>And so what has the reception been like to the

1291
01:13:37.680 --> 01:13:38.279
<v Speaker 1>book so far.

1292
01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:43.439
<v Speaker 2>It's been pretty good. It's pretty good. I was just

1293
01:13:43.479 --> 01:13:47.000
<v Speaker 2>a show of shows in Louisville and it was you know,

1294
01:13:47.079 --> 01:13:49.560
<v Speaker 2>people are like, oh, this is really interesting, sold quite

1295
01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:53.119
<v Speaker 2>a few copies of it, and just starting to get

1296
01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:56.239
<v Speaker 2>the promotion for it out there. That's why we're talking today. Sure,

1297
01:13:56.600 --> 01:14:03.800
<v Speaker 2>but but it's it's just a completely different angle and

1298
01:14:03.960 --> 01:14:06.239
<v Speaker 2>really a lot of this information is already out there,

1299
01:14:07.159 --> 01:14:13.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, like the NISSI interpreters, interrogators, that whole school

1300
01:14:13.640 --> 01:14:17.239
<v Speaker 2>that they set up in Minnesota, the singing operations at

1301
01:14:17.319 --> 01:14:22.119
<v Speaker 2>vent Hill Farms. The CIIC got itself into a little

1302
01:14:22.159 --> 01:14:25.920
<v Speaker 2>bit of trouble early on. They tried to make them

1303
01:14:26.039 --> 01:14:30.960
<v Speaker 2>into They tried to make them into like gmen. So

1304
01:14:31.239 --> 01:14:34.399
<v Speaker 2>their schoolhouse was in Chicago at the Tower Town Club

1305
01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:36.880
<v Speaker 2>on Michigan Avenue. So they would go out and they'd

1306
01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:40.720
<v Speaker 2>do their practice surveillance exercises and stuff on Michigan Avenue,

1307
01:14:42.359 --> 01:14:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and they would they would go to Underwriters Laboratory to

1308
01:14:46.960 --> 01:14:50.159
<v Speaker 2>get some like scientific training. In the Chicago Police Lab.

1309
01:14:50.760 --> 01:14:52.880
<v Speaker 2>In nineteen forty three, they got themselves in a little

1310
01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:55.720
<v Speaker 2>bit of hot water. So they were they were following

1311
01:14:55.800 --> 01:14:59.600
<v Speaker 2>a guy who was involved with the youth Labor movement

1312
01:15:00.119 --> 01:15:02.000
<v Speaker 2>who they thought was a communist. I feel pretty sure

1313
01:15:02.039 --> 01:15:07.279
<v Speaker 2>he was a communist in fact, and he was friends

1314
01:15:07.319 --> 01:15:11.359
<v Speaker 2>with Eleanor Roosevelt. In fact, Eleanor Roosevelt introduced him to

1315
01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:16.239
<v Speaker 2>his future spouse, and so the CIIC recorded a meeting

1316
01:15:16.359 --> 01:15:18.960
<v Speaker 2>between him and Eleanor Roosevelt, and then later on they

1317
01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:23.000
<v Speaker 2>recorded an encounter between him and his future wife in

1318
01:15:23.079 --> 01:15:28.119
<v Speaker 2>the same hotel room. That's one version of the story.

1319
01:15:28.199 --> 01:15:34.840
<v Speaker 2>The other story is a little bit different, just some

1320
01:15:34.960 --> 01:15:36.800
<v Speaker 2>of the details are a little different. If you read

1321
01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:39.359
<v Speaker 2>the guy who is involves account. But word gets back

1322
01:15:39.399 --> 01:15:44.159
<v Speaker 2>to the White House that the CIC may have intercepted

1323
01:15:44.319 --> 01:15:49.600
<v Speaker 2>an encounter with the first lady and that did not

1324
01:15:49.680 --> 01:15:55.199
<v Speaker 2>play well. So they ended up shit rolled down hill

1325
01:15:56.920 --> 01:16:01.239
<v Speaker 2>to the CIC and they got and from Washington. The

1326
01:16:01.279 --> 01:16:04.399
<v Speaker 2>school house got shut down for like a year. Eventually

1327
01:16:04.479 --> 01:16:08.439
<v Speaker 2>it was re established at Richie and they focused on

1328
01:16:08.520 --> 01:16:13.760
<v Speaker 2>tactical counterintelligence, but it was kind of a not a

1329
01:16:13.840 --> 01:16:15.279
<v Speaker 2>good situation for them to be in.

1330
01:16:15.720 --> 01:16:19.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I can imagine. Well, I think it's great

1331
01:16:19.399 --> 01:16:22.760
<v Speaker 1>that you captured this unit history and this is the

1332
01:16:22.840 --> 01:16:25.479
<v Speaker 1>type of book that you know, people in your career

1333
01:16:25.560 --> 01:16:29.279
<v Speaker 1>field are going to want to read. And as you said,

1334
01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:30.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean a lot of it is already out there.

1335
01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:33.920
<v Speaker 1>A lot of this stuff is declassified, but it's incumbent

1336
01:16:34.039 --> 01:16:36.399
<v Speaker 1>on folks like you to kind of bring it all together.

1337
01:16:37.359 --> 01:16:40.079
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. Yeah. I've got one story I want to

1338
01:16:40.119 --> 01:16:42.960
<v Speaker 2>talk about though, from my school, if you will indulge me.

1339
01:16:43.239 --> 01:16:43.439
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

1340
01:16:44.520 --> 01:16:47.880
<v Speaker 2>So a few years ago we had and I have

1341
01:16:47.960 --> 01:16:52.079
<v Speaker 2>permission from the parent to do this, but we had

1342
01:16:52.119 --> 01:16:56.159
<v Speaker 2>an international kid that had come to our school, very

1343
01:16:56.359 --> 01:16:59.159
<v Speaker 2>very talented kid from a country that had just been invaded.

1344
01:16:59.159 --> 01:17:02.520
<v Speaker 2>You can figure out which one it is, and you know,

1345
01:17:02.600 --> 01:17:04.720
<v Speaker 2>a six foot ten target's not a good thing. A

1346
01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:08.359
<v Speaker 2>junior Olympic level player, and he showed up on our

1347
01:17:08.399 --> 01:17:12.399
<v Speaker 2>doorstep and so we gave him nigh twenty. He was

1348
01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:14.840
<v Speaker 2>there for about five days and we lost him. He disappeared.

1349
01:17:14.840 --> 01:17:16.600
<v Speaker 2>We didn't know where he went. We're trying to find him.

1350
01:17:17.439 --> 01:17:23.880
<v Speaker 2>He was with this like post high school basketball team

1351
01:17:24.199 --> 01:17:28.039
<v Speaker 2>thing that turned out to be a little sketchy. So

1352
01:17:28.279 --> 01:17:30.479
<v Speaker 2>but we couldn't find this kid, and we called the cops.

1353
01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:32.239
<v Speaker 2>We did everything we could do, and we were getting

1354
01:17:32.279 --> 01:17:34.520
<v Speaker 2>into a situation where we were in the I twenty fraud.

1355
01:17:35.359 --> 01:17:39.039
<v Speaker 2>And so I saw him on Valentine's Day in the

1356
01:17:39.119 --> 01:17:41.239
<v Speaker 2>grocery store, but I lost track of him. And then

1357
01:17:41.319 --> 01:17:43.159
<v Speaker 2>like about a week later, my phone rang and it

1358
01:17:43.239 --> 01:17:46.399
<v Speaker 2>was a sports agent from somewhere in Virginia, and he

1359
01:17:46.479 --> 01:17:48.159
<v Speaker 2>calls me and he's the guy that put the kid

1360
01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:52.520
<v Speaker 2>into this particular school. And so it turns out what

1361
01:17:52.680 --> 01:17:56.960
<v Speaker 2>had happened is the sports program had the prior year.

1362
01:17:58.399 --> 01:18:00.439
<v Speaker 2>There's going to be a connection, hearing, just let me

1363
01:18:00.479 --> 01:18:07.000
<v Speaker 2>get to it. This particular sports program the year before

1364
01:18:07.640 --> 01:18:11.720
<v Speaker 2>had lived in some student housing and not paid the

1365
01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:16.560
<v Speaker 2>entire year, and they got fined seventy four thousand dollars.

1366
01:18:16.840 --> 01:18:19.359
<v Speaker 2>So this was the second year. So he actually the

1367
01:18:19.399 --> 01:18:24.439
<v Speaker 2>guy who ran it rented a dorm from a local

1368
01:18:24.640 --> 01:18:27.840
<v Speaker 2>university and then he didn't pay them either, so they

1369
01:18:27.920 --> 01:18:30.199
<v Speaker 2>kicked him out because there was vandalism and drug use

1370
01:18:30.239 --> 01:18:33.199
<v Speaker 2>and things like that. And then they bounced from hotel

1371
01:18:33.239 --> 01:18:37.119
<v Speaker 2>to hotel to hotel with as soon as you know,

1372
01:18:37.239 --> 01:18:40.039
<v Speaker 2>like a week no payment, they would move, another week,

1373
01:18:40.159 --> 01:18:42.479
<v Speaker 2>no payment they would move. And this is like twenty people.

1374
01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:45.600
<v Speaker 2>This is not a small group. And so this this

1375
01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:49.359
<v Speaker 2>coach calls me says, you know, this kid, I put

1376
01:18:49.439 --> 01:18:51.319
<v Speaker 2>him here. I feel bad. He's in a bad situation.

1377
01:18:51.399 --> 01:18:52.960
<v Speaker 2>We got to go get him, like like, so we

1378
01:18:53.039 --> 01:18:55.039
<v Speaker 2>got to do something here. This is not a good

1379
01:18:55.079 --> 01:18:58.479
<v Speaker 2>situation that particular team had ended. So this kid was

1380
01:18:58.560 --> 01:19:03.159
<v Speaker 2>living in an apartment with a mattress and nothing else.

1381
01:19:04.119 --> 01:19:07.479
<v Speaker 2>The dudes he was living with were like charging him

1382
01:19:07.520 --> 01:19:11.560
<v Speaker 2>to go to the grocery store. Not not a cool situation.

1383
01:19:12.319 --> 01:19:14.279
<v Speaker 2>So we're like, okay, we'll have him get to school.

1384
01:19:14.479 --> 01:19:19.439
<v Speaker 2>So he gets to school and we figure out what's

1385
01:19:19.520 --> 01:19:22.680
<v Speaker 2>going on all these different threads about you know, what's

1386
01:19:22.720 --> 01:19:24.880
<v Speaker 2>really going on with this situation. We called a guy

1387
01:19:24.960 --> 01:19:27.960
<v Speaker 2>from an organization called City of Refuge. He found like

1388
01:19:27.960 --> 01:19:30.840
<v Speaker 2>an older couple who's gonna who are willing to take him?

1389
01:19:30.840 --> 01:19:33.479
<v Speaker 2>We're like, oh, thank god, And so they called her

1390
01:19:33.560 --> 01:19:35.800
<v Speaker 2>doctor to get advice. And the doctor was a school

1391
01:19:35.880 --> 01:19:37.880
<v Speaker 2>mom from my high school, and she's like, well, hey,

1392
01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:42.960
<v Speaker 2>we'll take him. So so okay, we got a good

1393
01:19:43.000 --> 01:19:44.399
<v Speaker 2>place for this guy, but we got to go get

1394
01:19:44.439 --> 01:19:48.800
<v Speaker 2>this kid. And so the City of Refuge guy thought

1395
01:19:48.840 --> 01:19:51.880
<v Speaker 2>that this might be a little bit shady, like this

1396
01:19:52.039 --> 01:19:55.119
<v Speaker 2>may this may break bad for us, so, you know,

1397
01:19:55.239 --> 01:19:57.600
<v Speaker 2>rather than a pickup, it could become an distraction. So

1398
01:19:57.680 --> 01:19:59.880
<v Speaker 2>he called a lady named Nannette who's with the Stop

1399
01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Human Trafficking Coalition, and she agreed and she gave us

1400
01:20:03.279 --> 01:20:06.279
<v Speaker 2>a security guy. So we met at the fire station

1401
01:20:06.520 --> 01:20:09.319
<v Speaker 2>and this security dude rolls up, and this dude is

1402
01:20:09.399 --> 01:20:12.399
<v Speaker 2>fricking John Wick. He's driving a five series BMW. He

1403
01:20:12.439 --> 01:20:15.880
<v Speaker 2>looks like he just stepped out of a out of

1404
01:20:15.960 --> 01:20:19.960
<v Speaker 2>a structure store. And we kind of developed a plan

1405
01:20:20.680 --> 01:20:22.199
<v Speaker 2>and then we went knocked on the door. It turned

1406
01:20:22.199 --> 01:20:23.600
<v Speaker 2>out to be a non event and that John Wick

1407
01:20:23.720 --> 01:20:29.159
<v Speaker 2>dude disappeared, So I finally figured out who John Wick was.

1408
01:20:30.159 --> 01:20:31.760
<v Speaker 2>That was a guy by the name of Ryan Burke.

1409
01:20:33.000 --> 01:20:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Is it ring? A bell. No, Andrew Milbourne would know

1410
01:20:38.640 --> 01:20:43.520
<v Speaker 2>who he is. He's the guy that sued Andrew Milbourne, oh,

1411
01:20:43.920 --> 01:20:45.880
<v Speaker 2>for definite defamation.

1412
01:20:46.680 --> 01:20:49.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure that was so he just got shot and killed.

1413
01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:53.560
<v Speaker 2>Actually that guy really? Yeah? Yeah, and that that's kind

1414
01:20:53.600 --> 01:20:56.199
<v Speaker 2>of where I was going with this. Yeah, he got

1415
01:20:57.000 --> 01:21:00.239
<v Speaker 2>about two weeks ago, Saturday night of our Sunday night

1416
01:21:00.319 --> 01:21:05.039
<v Speaker 2>before before Martin Luther King Day. He was doing a

1417
01:21:05.159 --> 01:21:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Facebook marketplace deal and these four kids showed up, the

1418
01:21:10.720 --> 01:21:14.079
<v Speaker 2>oldest being eighteen. One was a juvenile. The deal went

1419
01:21:14.239 --> 01:21:15.640
<v Speaker 2>bad and they shot and killed him.

1420
01:21:16.119 --> 01:21:19.800
<v Speaker 1>I think I saw this. Yeah, the yes, I didn't

1421
01:21:19.840 --> 01:21:23.880
<v Speaker 1>know it was the guy that tried to sue Milburn. Wow,

1422
01:21:24.239 --> 01:21:24.840
<v Speaker 1>holy shit.

1423
01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's the same guy. And actually I found out

1424
01:21:28.079 --> 01:21:31.039
<v Speaker 2>later on that he almost became my coworker in that

1425
01:21:31.199 --> 01:21:34.079
<v Speaker 2>he was he was in the running for like a

1426
01:21:34.399 --> 01:21:38.079
<v Speaker 2>campus ministry job to work with me, and the lady

1427
01:21:38.159 --> 01:21:42.800
<v Speaker 2>that we ended up hiring ended up actually becoming really

1428
01:21:42.840 --> 01:21:46.640
<v Speaker 2>good friends with him. And actually he was so distraught

1429
01:21:46.720 --> 01:21:48.960
<v Speaker 2>she couldn't come into work the day after this happened.

1430
01:21:49.960 --> 01:21:55.479
<v Speaker 2>But so I would suggest everyone look at his Facebook

1431
01:21:55.520 --> 01:21:57.840
<v Speaker 2>profile and just see who he is and what he is.

1432
01:21:58.960 --> 01:22:03.479
<v Speaker 2>The allegation that came out from Andrew. I think Andrew

1433
01:22:03.600 --> 01:22:05.880
<v Speaker 2>was coming from an honorable place. I think that he

1434
01:22:06.880 --> 01:22:10.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, again, he won the lawsuit, the defamation suit,

1435
01:22:10.520 --> 01:22:13.399
<v Speaker 2>although that may not necessarily that may just speak to

1436
01:22:13.520 --> 01:22:18.039
<v Speaker 2>his motivations and sourcing, but not necessarily what occurred in

1437
01:22:18.239 --> 01:22:20.039
<v Speaker 2>the end. Only two people in the world know what

1438
01:22:20.159 --> 01:22:25.119
<v Speaker 2>happened in that situation. And I know people who went

1439
01:22:25.159 --> 01:22:28.600
<v Speaker 2>to who grew up with him here in Columbia. I

1440
01:22:28.680 --> 01:22:31.119
<v Speaker 2>knew people who knew him when he was at Missoo.

1441
01:22:31.159 --> 01:22:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I was at Missoo at the same time. This was

1442
01:22:34.039 --> 01:22:37.520
<v Speaker 2>the dude that showed up from the human trafficking coalition

1443
01:22:38.920 --> 01:22:42.159
<v Speaker 2>to go get that kid on a Sunday morning that

1444
01:22:42.279 --> 01:22:46.520
<v Speaker 2>he didn't know. And I don't know what happened in Ukraine,

1445
01:22:47.159 --> 01:22:50.640
<v Speaker 2>but I can say. What I will say is it's

1446
01:22:50.720 --> 01:22:54.439
<v Speaker 2>completely out of character with who he is, absolutely out

1447
01:22:54.439 --> 01:22:57.880
<v Speaker 2>of character with who he is. And I'm actually very nice.

1448
01:22:58.119 --> 01:22:59.840
<v Speaker 2>There are many of my friends who are like, this

1449
01:23:00.079 --> 01:23:03.520
<v Speaker 2>is absolute bullshit. So but again, I'm not accusing Andrew

1450
01:23:03.560 --> 01:23:06.880
<v Speaker 2>of anything. I think he was probably coming He's an

1451
01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:08.720
<v Speaker 2>officer and a gentleman. I'm assuming he's coming from a

1452
01:23:08.760 --> 01:23:12.479
<v Speaker 2>good place. But you know, stuff can happen with alcohol.

1453
01:23:13.119 --> 01:23:16.640
<v Speaker 2>I get that, but in the end, this is completely

1454
01:23:16.680 --> 01:23:18.640
<v Speaker 2>out of character with the rest of this man's life.

1455
01:23:19.479 --> 01:23:23.119
<v Speaker 2>And I'm just trying to set the record straight because

1456
01:23:23.159 --> 01:23:25.319
<v Speaker 2>I met him, I looked him in the eye, and

1457
01:23:25.359 --> 01:23:25.800
<v Speaker 2>he helped me.

1458
01:23:27.079 --> 01:23:30.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, people are multifaceted. They're not all good

1459
01:23:30.479 --> 01:23:33.199
<v Speaker 1>or all bad as we often want to believe.

1460
01:23:36.239 --> 01:23:38.119
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, sorry to drop that on you at the end,

1461
01:23:38.279 --> 01:23:42.640
<v Speaker 2>but you know, I say, the people that I knew

1462
01:23:42.680 --> 01:23:46.079
<v Speaker 2>that knew him were just amazing, twenty of the best

1463
01:23:46.119 --> 01:23:49.239
<v Speaker 2>people I've ever met in my life. And you know,

1464
01:23:49.359 --> 01:23:54.479
<v Speaker 2>people are still upset about it. So of course, so

1465
01:23:54.560 --> 01:23:56.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what happened in Ukraine, but I can

1466
01:23:56.840 --> 01:23:59.279
<v Speaker 2>tell you everyone in his hometown and in the town

1467
01:23:59.279 --> 01:24:02.680
<v Speaker 2>where he died thinks it's it's not true.

1468
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:06.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean, whatever, the case is kind of irrelevant, isn't it.

1469
01:24:06.920 --> 01:24:09.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the guy got murdered by, you know, trying

1470
01:24:09.760 --> 01:24:12.840
<v Speaker 1>to sell something on Facebook, Facebook marketplace. I mean, I

1471
01:24:12.920 --> 01:24:15.399
<v Speaker 1>think that's sort of the bigger issue here.

1472
01:24:16.960 --> 01:24:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Uh yeah, I think so. But this is like the

1473
01:24:19.760 --> 01:24:24.960
<v Speaker 2>day after this happened, a local media company put out

1474
01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:27.600
<v Speaker 2>a story saying that he may have been murdered because

1475
01:24:28.399 --> 01:24:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of what happened in Ukraine, and I'm like, oh, I don't,

1476
01:24:31.319 --> 01:24:33.199
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so, Yeah, I don't. I know, I

1477
01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:34.840
<v Speaker 2>don't think so. I think this guy was just trying

1478
01:24:34.880 --> 01:24:37.199
<v Speaker 2>to grab a headline and things like that. But it

1479
01:24:37.279 --> 01:24:40.119
<v Speaker 2>really kind of brought it back to the forefront and

1480
01:24:40.279 --> 01:24:44.640
<v Speaker 2>really really solid this guy's reputation. So I would encourage

1481
01:24:44.640 --> 01:24:46.560
<v Speaker 2>anyone to just go look at his Facebook profile and

1482
01:24:46.600 --> 01:24:49.279
<v Speaker 2>see who he was. It's very curated, it's very millennial,

1483
01:24:50.119 --> 01:24:52.439
<v Speaker 2>but like there's like one of the last videos he

1484
01:24:52.479 --> 01:24:54.960
<v Speaker 2>posted was him playing his guitar for a bunch of

1485
01:24:55.000 --> 01:24:58.720
<v Speaker 2>school children in Uganda, and that was a couple weeks ago.

1486
01:24:59.439 --> 01:25:06.600
<v Speaker 1>Damn, that's terrible. Yeah, So, Tim, uh, anything else you

1487
01:25:06.640 --> 01:25:08.520
<v Speaker 1>want to talk about before we get going tonight.

1488
01:25:10.119 --> 01:25:12.720
<v Speaker 2>I think that's basically it. I you know, I appreciate,

1489
01:25:13.439 --> 01:25:16.399
<v Speaker 2>appreciate the time coming on here. If you're interested in

1490
01:25:16.520 --> 01:25:21.239
<v Speaker 2>the book, go to lulu dot com and search for

1491
01:25:21.319 --> 01:25:23.520
<v Speaker 2>my name Tim Shear s e H E R R

1492
01:25:23.600 --> 01:25:29.960
<v Speaker 2>E R and should come up with my page. It's

1493
01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:35.159
<v Speaker 2>not on Amazon yet and might not for a while,

1494
01:25:35.279 --> 01:25:37.720
<v Speaker 2>but I think it's I think it's a solid book.

1495
01:25:37.760 --> 01:25:39.119
<v Speaker 2>I had a lot of fun writing it, and I

1496
01:25:39.159 --> 01:25:40.399
<v Speaker 2>think people are going to enjoy it.

1497
01:25:41.439 --> 01:25:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh, that's great. And your other books can be found

1498
01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:44.159
<v Speaker 1>there too.

1499
01:25:45.199 --> 01:25:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, everything's on there. Actually there's a cat calendar on

1500
01:25:47.680 --> 01:25:50.439
<v Speaker 2>there too, although I made that for my mom. So

1501
01:25:51.199 --> 01:25:54.119
<v Speaker 2>and in fact your my mom loved loved your book,

1502
01:25:55.800 --> 01:25:56.079
<v Speaker 2>your book.

1503
01:25:56.159 --> 01:25:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, I'm happy to hear that.

1504
01:25:57.920 --> 01:26:00.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, I gave it to her for Chris last

1505
01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:03.319
<v Speaker 2>year and it was a big hit in the eighty

1506
01:26:03.399 --> 01:26:04.800
<v Speaker 2>five year old booking home demo.

1507
01:26:07.039 --> 01:26:12.640
<v Speaker 1>That's great, it's right in their wheelhouse. Everyone, thanks for

1508
01:26:12.880 --> 01:26:15.840
<v Speaker 1>joining us tonight. Really appreciate Tim sheher joining us on

1509
01:26:15.920 --> 01:26:20.279
<v Speaker 1>the show. The book is Spycatchers, Interrogators and Analysts. I

1510
01:26:20.359 --> 01:26:22.840
<v Speaker 1>hope you guys will go check it out at lulu

1511
01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:29.359
<v Speaker 1>dot com and we will see all of you next time. Hey, guys,

1512
01:26:29.439 --> 01:26:31.239
<v Speaker 1>I want to tell all of you today about a

1513
01:26:31.319 --> 01:26:35.359
<v Speaker 1>new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Teamhouse podcast,

1514
01:26:35.600 --> 01:26:39.560
<v Speaker 1>the eyes On podcast, and the high Side News outlet,

1515
01:26:39.680 --> 01:26:44.039
<v Speaker 1>which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going

1516
01:26:44.079 --> 01:26:45.880
<v Speaker 1>to be once a week. It's going to come into

1517
01:26:45.920 --> 01:26:48.319
<v Speaker 1>your inbox and you're going to get the most current

1518
01:26:48.399 --> 01:26:53.560
<v Speaker 1>podcasts on eyes On and the teamhouse and whatever's topical

1519
01:26:53.840 --> 01:26:56.479
<v Speaker 1>or current on the high side. So it's another way

1520
01:26:56.520 --> 01:26:58.600
<v Speaker 1>for us to get the information out to you as

1521
01:26:58.760 --> 01:27:02.199
<v Speaker 1>social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really

1522
01:27:02.279 --> 01:27:04.560
<v Speaker 1>know what you're gonna get. So this is a once

1523
01:27:04.560 --> 01:27:07.159
<v Speaker 1>a week email. It'll slide into your inbox and it

1524
01:27:07.199 --> 01:27:09.319
<v Speaker 1>will have you know the greatest hits of that week.

1525
01:27:09.479 --> 01:27:13.840
<v Speaker 1>It's really good man checking it out. The website for

1526
01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:17.840
<v Speaker 1>it is Teamhouse Podcast, dot kit dot com, slash Join,

1527
01:27:18.520 --> 01:27:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com slash join.

1528
01:27:22.560 --> 01:27:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1529
01:27:22.800 --> 01:27:25.000
<v Speaker 1>You go there and you enter into your email lists

1530
01:27:25.159 --> 01:27:28.680
<v Speaker 1>or you enter your email into the little thing on

1531
01:27:28.800 --> 01:27:31.159
<v Speaker 1>the website and you're good to go. And that'll be it.

1532
01:27:32.000 --> 01:27:34.720
<v Speaker 1>So we really appreciate your support and I hope you'll

1533
01:27:34.720 --> 01:27:35.560
<v Speaker 1>consider signing up.

1534
01:27:35.840 --> 01:27:36.520
<v Speaker 2>Where's the link.

1535
01:27:37.479 --> 01:27:39.800
<v Speaker 1>The link will also be down in the description if

1536
01:27:39.840 --> 01:27:43.880
<v Speaker 1>you're looking for it there, And that's Teamhouse Podcast, dot Kit,

1537
01:27:44.159 --> 01:27:50.119
<v Speaker 1>k I t Kilo India, Tango dot com backslash Join