WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, folks, we're recording at chain links smart Con event

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<v Speaker 1>and joining me is Ashpompati, who is the head of

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<v Speaker 1>ecosystem at app Toss.

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<v Speaker 2>Ash.

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<v Speaker 1>Great to be doing this in person with you, man.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't believe I get to do it again.

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<v Speaker 1>Tony, Yeah, we spoke earlier this year. Lots of great

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<v Speaker 1>things happening with ap toss. But for the folks who

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<v Speaker 1>don't know you, tell us a bit about yourself in ap.

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<v Speaker 2>Toss one hundred percent. So ap toss was actually a

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<v Speaker 2>blockchain that was incubated at Meta to move value across

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<v Speaker 2>a billion user super ap economy. It's spun out and

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<v Speaker 2>has been in market for about three years and since

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<v Speaker 2>then has been a leading blockchain and driving stable coin

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<v Speaker 2>movement DeFi and now investing in infrastructure bring the next

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<v Speaker 2>billion user apps on chain now.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the great features of ap tooss it's super fast.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you guys able to achieve this speed?

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<v Speaker 2>So I think it goes back to what I said before,

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<v Speaker 2>which was the technical thesis around what a blockchain needs

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<v Speaker 2>to do was always built from a first principle's perspective

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<v Speaker 2>that it needs to support metas billion user app economy

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<v Speaker 2>out of the box, speed was a non negotiable, but

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<v Speaker 2>also security which came with it move the smart contract

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<v Speaker 2>programming languages. I think we've both seen several hacks in

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<v Speaker 2>market over the years, which is maybe the cost of

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<v Speaker 2>business of being in this space. But for the technical

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<v Speaker 2>team at that firm where it was originated, that was

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<v Speaker 2>a non negotiable. In order to move billions and trillions

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<v Speaker 2>of transactions across the world, you needed a premier security language.

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<v Speaker 2>So embedded within app toss is to move smart contract

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<v Speaker 2>programming language, so not only cheap, highly secure.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know, as far as usability and use cases,

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<v Speaker 1>I read recently that stable Flow integrated app toss and

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<v Speaker 1>that's going to allow put a transfer of more stable coins.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us a bit about that. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that was an amazing launch and I think

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<v Speaker 2>part of an example of how Bottom's up technical thesis

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<v Speaker 2>driven building can actually reduce friction. I believe on that

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<v Speaker 2>one it was through an integration through not only ap toss,

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<v Speaker 2>but near and through the intense network. With that, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's natural in terms of stable coins finding the

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<v Speaker 2>best path and the most efficient path, and smart users

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<v Speaker 2>making that as a default choice. Even though AP toss

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<v Speaker 2>is less mature as an ecosystem, especially with stable coin

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<v Speaker 2>integration versus some of the legacy players. We've already seen

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<v Speaker 2>unbound growth, which tells us that smart users, when they

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<v Speaker 2>have a dollar on X chain versus Y chain, the

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<v Speaker 2>one that's faster and more efficient and secure, they will

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<v Speaker 2>default choose. And so that is a huge signal for us,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're going to push a lot by multiples in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of growing that usage.

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<v Speaker 1>I also recently read that Calshi is now supporting aptoss's

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<v Speaker 1>USDC native USDC and the apt token.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, so, I think one thing from a foundation perspective,

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<v Speaker 2>or a foundation that's supporting a permissionless network like aptoss,

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<v Speaker 2>is to make sure that users can access assets on

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<v Speaker 2>your network as well as stable coins on your network,

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<v Speaker 2>no matter where they are.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, we knew. I think last time we

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<v Speaker 2>talked about NFTs, NFTs evolved into meme coins. Meme coins

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<v Speaker 2>are evolving into prediction markets. So for us, our goal

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<v Speaker 2>as a foundation is to make sure where ubiquitous acrosshol

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<v Speaker 2>services and culsh is an amazing platform.

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<v Speaker 1>You use the word ubiquitous, and that's where blockchain has

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<v Speaker 1>to go. Right where it's running through the rails, through

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<v Speaker 1>the markets, the financial system, pop culture, society. But people

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<v Speaker 1>don't necessarily need to know, just if they are sophisticated

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<v Speaker 1>enough to know, Hey, I can choose the aptass blockchain,

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<v Speaker 1>but the idea of speed and usability is the key, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I completely agree.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I think we're kind of in our middle

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<v Speaker 2>child phase, you know, where we look a little funky.

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<v Speaker 2>We kind of like music we probably won't like for

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<v Speaker 2>a long time. Sure, and we're very tribal. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think when we talk about an everyday consumer, right, whether

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<v Speaker 2>it be your wife or my father, they don't have

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<v Speaker 2>time to think about this stuff or even subscribe to

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<v Speaker 2>a quote unquote technical religion.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>They want something that is usable, they want something that

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<v Speaker 2>is reliable, and they want something that either gives them value,

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<v Speaker 2>make them money, or save them time. And so I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's where applications built on blockchains will need to

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<v Speaker 2>head towards. And we're already seeing that with founders looking

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<v Speaker 2>to build now, which look very different than founders who

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to start building in twenty twenty, which look different

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<v Speaker 2>than twenty seventeen. These are founders who have scaled enterprise

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<v Speaker 2>and consumer businesses should come from traditional tech backgrounds who

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<v Speaker 2>are ready to make their foray into entrepreneurship, and for them,

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<v Speaker 2>they look at scaling businesses as an outcome. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think we're starting to see that start to graduate

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<v Speaker 2>a bit.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're right. You know, I look back at twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eight and I been here since twenty sixteen, and

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<v Speaker 1>the amount of adoption we're seeing. You know, there's once

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<v Speaker 1>the okay, crypto native firms are building technologies, but now

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<v Speaker 1>TRADFI traditional tech companies if you want to call them,

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<v Speaker 1>that are now coming in. And on that note, I

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<v Speaker 1>read that Indian telecom giant Reliance Geo is partnering with apptoss.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so you know, these are the kinds of efforts

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<v Speaker 2>that take a lot of time. When you think about

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<v Speaker 2>the scale of a company like Reliance Geo, the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>telco provider and not only in India but in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>And when you think about the amount of foresight a

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<v Speaker 2>firm like that and the executives within the firm have

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<v Speaker 2>to have to believe in Web three technology. You have

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<v Speaker 2>to ask the question of what is the actual urgency

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<v Speaker 2>behind it? And business need sure, and the business need

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<v Speaker 2>is Web three at its core. Not only is it

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<v Speaker 2>better rails for trading or moving a dollar, but for retention. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>which completely shifts the advertising market, which is heading towards

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<v Speaker 2>a trillion dollar year market by twenty thirty. Wow, some

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<v Speaker 2>of us don't realize that when you compare it against

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<v Speaker 2>trading fees on chain. Sure, right, So they're a firm

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<v Speaker 2>that understand. Now the next question is once you understand

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<v Speaker 2>that what technology can actually support your billion plus user

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<v Speaker 2>use case? You can't just use any sort of SaaS

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<v Speaker 2>rights to be reliable. Your users can't have a second

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<v Speaker 2>of disruption otherwise they'll churn out, which affects your business absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>Supercent users churn out, you affect your business big time.

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<v Speaker 2>And so naturally they came to aptos and said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you guys are the best and fastest and you can

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<v Speaker 2>actually support this, so let's work together.

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<v Speaker 1>That's pretty incredible. That's a big one. I mean, the

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<v Speaker 1>largest heelcom company. And what are you seeing as far

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<v Speaker 1>as the vision that these companies have. Are they looking

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<v Speaker 1>to use blockchain in different ways, create reward tokens or

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<v Speaker 1>like you mentioned, keeping customers and how are you thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about it? And I don't know if you can share

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<v Speaker 1>the details here, but as much as you.

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<v Speaker 2>Can, yeah, I mean I can share how they're thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about it, because I used to work at a company

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<v Speaker 2>that thought about this like YouTube a lot, right, which

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<v Speaker 2>is how do you in line incentives with your users

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<v Speaker 2>in the most efficient and economical way that's value add

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<v Speaker 2>for your business and also value add for their time spent.

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<v Speaker 2>I think right now we've had pretty archaic ways of

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<v Speaker 2>doing this. Advertising monetizing eyeballs, creating so much friction so

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<v Speaker 2>you can convert them to subscription. Then they're paying subscription

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<v Speaker 2>and they question, why do I have to pay this?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even use this anymore. I have ten different subscriptions.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think advertised like large companies with a swath

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<v Speaker 2>of loyalists but also a broad consumer base. Think I'll

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<v Speaker 2>see this about to happen In terms of fragmentation, the

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<v Speaker 2>ad models isn't going to work. CPMs are going to

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<v Speaker 2>go down. Big brand advertisers are going to less ROI

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<v Speaker 2>because of dilution. Subscription people are overindated with subscription service.

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<v Speaker 2>They literally cannot afford it, and so they say there

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<v Speaker 2>must be a better way. So I think for them,

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<v Speaker 2>they're looking at blockchain and web three incentives as a

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<v Speaker 2>layer to rechange advertising, sure more stickiness with the user,

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<v Speaker 2>and put more money in their pocket by using the

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<v Speaker 2>app micro transactions for subscription services. So imagine if I

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<v Speaker 2>could pay ten cents or a penny every time I

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<v Speaker 2>watch versus have a choice of do I pay twenty

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<v Speaker 2>bucks on Amazon Prime foret?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Right? And so I think this is how they're thinking

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of the smart businesses. And the other thing

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<v Speaker 2>I would say is we still have not yet seen

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<v Speaker 2>the Fortune fifty companies. The C level execs in their

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<v Speaker 2>boardroom say what about crypto alongside AI? And that I

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<v Speaker 2>think will start to happen very quickly, especially as things

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<v Speaker 2>like the Genius Act being passed and the Clarity Act.

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<v Speaker 2>Once those things happen, every Fortune and fifty firm will

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<v Speaker 2>not only say in their boardroom what are we doing

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<v Speaker 2>with AI? They will say what are we doing with crypto?

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<v Speaker 1>And speaking of Fortune and fifty, I don't know black

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<v Speaker 1>Rock fits in this. So they're king of the hill

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<v Speaker 1>in the finance world in many ways. They expanded their

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<v Speaker 1>Biddle money market tokenized money market fund on app toss

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<v Speaker 1>tell us about that what that means for a chain

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<v Speaker 1>like app TOSK.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think one thing with our history obviously based

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<v Speaker 2>on how we originated, but the technical principles that we

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<v Speaker 2>put around the network on security, the emphasis that naturally

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<v Speaker 2>inclines towards institutions right. Institutions want trust, they want to

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<v Speaker 2>know there's a team behind the network that's well funded,

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<v Speaker 2>that in perpetuity can support the needs of a network,

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<v Speaker 2>and they want to make sure there's a high level

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<v Speaker 2>of security. On one hand, you could look us look

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<v Speaker 2>at us as a controversial bet for institutions because we're

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<v Speaker 2>not eth we're not Salana, we're moved, we're a new

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<v Speaker 2>ecosystem entirely. On the other hand, you could look at

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<v Speaker 2>them as saying that's the bar for innovation that needs

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<v Speaker 2>to happen for us to actually invest in networks. Sure,

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<v Speaker 2>So I think with the Biddle Fund, who's been a

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<v Speaker 2>long time partner with us, it's been incredible to work

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<v Speaker 2>with them, and they truly believe in the mission on

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<v Speaker 2>ap toss.

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<v Speaker 1>You, I think addressed this in our interview earlier this year.

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<v Speaker 1>But I want to make sure folks are aware of

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<v Speaker 1>how the building is happening on app toss. Is it

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<v Speaker 1>a layer two is it subnets? Like how can Blackrock

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<v Speaker 1>or somebody else if they want to create a private

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<v Speaker 1>aspect on app tooss, how can they do that?

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<v Speaker 2>So, you know, when we think about RWA's, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>pretty broad term, right. It can include stable coins, it

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<v Speaker 2>could choose credit products, it can include tokenized funds, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I think for us we have coverage across all

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<v Speaker 2>those things. What we are excited to see is the

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<v Speaker 2>real world utilization of those assets. We're already seeing it

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<v Speaker 2>with stable coins, We're already seeing it with private credit

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<v Speaker 2>markets where credit is being extended by protocols, to emerging

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<v Speaker 2>markets for micro loans, or we even just had a

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<v Speaker 2>new company, Creator five come to ap toss who raise

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<v Speaker 2>fifty million in debt financing to help loan creators and

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<v Speaker 2>artists wow stables so that they can create and not

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<v Speaker 2>get locked into bad distribution deals. I need to contact them, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll send, I'll send, I'll send to you them. They're

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<v Speaker 2>backed by the biggest MCNs and everything. Oh, so we're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing like tremendous utilization and opportunity and specific sectors of RWA's,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think there's more to come outside of that

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think about the tokenization race that's happening

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<v Speaker 1>for stocks, gold, I'm hearing real estate and even like

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<v Speaker 1>you know, somebody's money market, funds and bonds and so forth,

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<v Speaker 1>and what do you see that market by twenty thirty or.

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<v Speaker 2>So, you know, I think I see it as like

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<v Speaker 2>the way I look at it is RWA's minus stables

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<v Speaker 2>are where stables were at three years ago today, And

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<v Speaker 2>so it's still the concept of tokenization in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>should I token this, what's the value of tokenizing this?

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<v Speaker 2>And then what's the roadmap? Right, yeah, what does it

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<v Speaker 2>look like in DeFi across ecosystems? And so I think

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<v Speaker 2>for us, that's how we want to push forward with

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<v Speaker 2>those folks. So by twenty thirty, I look at is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a user can go collaterize QYZ alone. It's

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<v Speaker 2>something that they're used to and tradify, sure, and go

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<v Speaker 2>use that money, send that money somewhere in an instant

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<v Speaker 2>you know, trade it they have if they're on the

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<v Speaker 2>risk curve. Sure, that's kind of where I see it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I see tokenization as having unlimited upper bound, but

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<v Speaker 2>it will be driven by the real world utilization from

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<v Speaker 2>everyday users.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure. And then we got to figure out if there's

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<v Speaker 1>a market for as certain assets. Right, is there liquidity?

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<v Speaker 1>Even if you tokenize something, is there a market is

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<v Speaker 1>your demand for it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? And there's so many different use cases, right, there's

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<v Speaker 2>there's borrow, lend what assets are good for that? There's trading,

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<v Speaker 2>there's high risk curve trading. You know, there's different types

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<v Speaker 2>of assets that I think work. And I think crypto

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<v Speaker 2>luckily has supercomposability where you quickly learn once in assets

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<v Speaker 2>in market, what has product market fit or signal, unlike

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<v Speaker 2>more traditional standards where there's tons of bureaucratic red tape

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<v Speaker 2>to actually get something live. So I think with this

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<v Speaker 2>administration and their philosophy and crypto and technology, we at

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<v Speaker 2>large we're going to learn very soon. And I'm very

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<v Speaker 2>excited for institutions to come on board.

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<v Speaker 1>Speaking of this administration, a lot of people are chomping

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<v Speaker 1>at the bit to get the Market Structure bill pass.

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<v Speaker 1>We know we have the government shut down now they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to eventually open up. Are you thinking we might

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<v Speaker 1>get it passed by December or Q one of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty six.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm not a macroeconomist. I'm also not a

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<v Speaker 2>political commentator. But what I would say is this administration

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<v Speaker 2>has shown pretty clearly two things. One they want America

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<v Speaker 2>to be the center of techno optimism, sure, and number two,

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<v Speaker 2>they believe crypto are better financial rails. Yeah, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I think with those two things in consideration, you will

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<v Speaker 2>see high urgency to get those things done. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's up to the rest of us to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure we're driving and building products to drive adoption.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, for sure, we covered quite a few items of

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<v Speaker 1>APTOSK getting adoption. Is there anything else you want to highlight?

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<v Speaker 1>And maybe you can tell us a bit about what's on

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<v Speaker 1>your road map.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think we can combine the two. Sure. So

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<v Speaker 2>one thing that has been very exciting to see, albeit

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<v Speaker 2>not having the best results for people currently subscribed to

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<v Speaker 2>those products and services, is we have spent this year

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<v Speaker 2>focused on a few things. Number one, we believe exchanges

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<v Speaker 2>should be fully decentralized and users should be able to

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<v Speaker 2>trust them. We also believe the blockchain to support that

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<v Speaker 2>paradigm needs to be as fast as a centralized exchange.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So, two things have happened. Number One, we've pushed our

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<v Speaker 2>blockchain latency, which is basically the lagant between something deciding

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<v Speaker 2>to happen sure down to sixty five milliseconds. Finance is

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<v Speaker 2>at five milliseconds, So we are basically encroaching towards having

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<v Speaker 2>the same latency as a centralized exchange. Wow. On top

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<v Speaker 2>of that will be built this company called Decibel, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a fully decentralized exchange ultimate transparency. You can perpose trade,

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<v Speaker 2>you can spot trade, you can even do multi asset collateral,

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<v Speaker 2>and so that's really exciting. Now why is that exciting? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>Number one, there's tons of purpose exchanges in market, but

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<v Speaker 2>we think the pie is so much bigger than that,

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<v Speaker 2>especially when you add additional services. Number two, you saw

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<v Speaker 2>Black Friday, our version of Black Friday. What happens when

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<v Speaker 2>you have opaqueness in centralized entities, Users get punished at

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the day. So that is a huge

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<v Speaker 2>validation for us that the market needs trusted and reliable

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<v Speaker 2>exchanges that are fully decentralized. The second piece is infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the greatest bottleneck to web thory adoption. Do

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<v Speaker 2>you know what it is? The on ramp data data.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, data is a huge bottleneck to fully decentralized,

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<v Speaker 2>billion user scale apps running on chain. You dig deep

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<v Speaker 2>enough eventually every blockchain, every DAP uses a centralized cloud service.

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<v Speaker 2>That's one person with one button that can shut off

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<v Speaker 2>everything that owns your important asset, which is data. So

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<v Speaker 2>we're building Shelby. It's hitting dev net, a co build

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<v Speaker 2>with Jump Crypto that is essentially decentralized AWSGCP Azure, which

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<v Speaker 2>allows for Web three incentives. That is no middleman.

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<v Speaker 1>That is so needed.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I mean you saw with the recent events

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<v Speaker 2>AWS went down and then what happened right after Azure

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<v Speaker 2>went down. Yeah, so it's huge validation in the technical

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<v Speaker 2>roadmap and we're uniquely set up our firm to deliver

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<v Speaker 2>on that. Avery led production engineering at Meta for Libra DM,

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<v Speaker 2>but before that he was scaling systems for what's up

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<v Speaker 2>in Instagram. Anytime a new feature needed to be launched,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what, they'd call Avery. We got to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure this doesn't break. That's his whole team. So we

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<v Speaker 2>are building in the right direction and the market is

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<v Speaker 2>validating the need for these things.

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<v Speaker 1>That's exciting. We're going to have to do an in

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<v Speaker 1>person interviewer at my studio downtown New York when that

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<v Speaker 1>is ready to go. I like that, and that is

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<v Speaker 1>so needed. What are you looking for most to in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty six for the industry and so forth.

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<v Speaker 2>I love the institutional narrative right now. What I believe,

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<v Speaker 2>as I believe is true in any technological sector, when

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<v Speaker 2>institutions get excited, is we need hardcore innovation, the aha

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<v Speaker 2>magic moments that AI has had for the last two years. Sure,

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<v Speaker 2>and we need immense consumer adoption and innovation to compound

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<v Speaker 2>upon this institutional interest. And so for me, I'm very

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<v Speaker 2>excited about seeing apps that may not be so relevant

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<v Speaker 2>as they are today but tomorrow start to focus more

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<v Speaker 2>on how are we bringing commerce on chain, advertising, how

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<v Speaker 2>are we changing subscription, how are we changing media and entertainment,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I believe we'll probably see that trending towards

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty seven.

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<v Speaker 1>That is another item that I am really looking forward

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<v Speaker 1>to as well, because to your point, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>go through my normal Web two experience. Where's blockchain? Where

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<v Speaker 1>where's the integration? I know it's a work in progress,

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<v Speaker 1>but I haven't seen it yet. You know, you're mentioning

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<v Speaker 1>like micro transactions and microfez, where is that? You know?

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<v Speaker 1>So sounds like you guys are ahead of the curve

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<v Speaker 1>working on it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's in our DNA. We've always believed this in the

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<v Speaker 2>timing couldn't be better for us.

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<v Speaker 1>Ash, great stuff, looking forward to our next one. Appreciate

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<v Speaker 1>it and uh yeah man, great stuff happening at aptols.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for joining me.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks, great stuff happening at Thinking Crypto. Appreciate you man.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode is brought to you by Uphold, which is

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