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<v Speaker 1>Well, hi everybody, it's Steve Hayward here with a special

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<v Speaker 1>holiday episode of the Ricochet Podcast. It's just me in

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<v Speaker 1>conversation with Rob Long, one of Ricochet's co founders, well

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<v Speaker 1>known to nearly all of you, of course, and I thought,

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<v Speaker 1>who better to talk about Christmas and the meaning of

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<v Speaker 1>religion than our own in house seminarian, And so without

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<v Speaker 1>further ado, here's me and Robin. Well, I'm delighted to

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<v Speaker 1>have one of Ricochet's co founders, Rob Long, joined me

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<v Speaker 1>for this special year end episode. I have for the

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<v Speaker 1>longest time been wanting to talk to Rob about this

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<v Speaker 1>midlife change from Hollywood to theology, from the studio to

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<v Speaker 1>the church, and partly because I mean a fellow Christian,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, but also because it parallels the trajectory were

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<v Speaker 1>a very good friend of mine who unfortunately passed away

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<v Speaker 1>in his early fifties after deciding to leave a variousuccessful

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<v Speaker 1>legal career to go to seminary and become more dane. So,

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<v Speaker 1>in other words, your story, Rob sounds familiar to me,

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, the reasoning is interesting. But anyway, listeners, you

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<v Speaker 1>won't be able to see this, of course, But at

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<v Speaker 1>first I thought, what are you lighting up there, Rob?

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<v Speaker 1>Is that incense sexual high Church?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, no, I'd be very very much in favor of

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<v Speaker 2>it if it were incense. I do have incense in

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<v Speaker 2>the house. I had to tell you.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like, I am kind of an incense freak. This

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<v Speaker 3>is a cigar. I was just wrapped up on.

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<v Speaker 2>Friday, exams and papers. I had a bunch to do,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm here to tell you it's very very A

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<v Speaker 2>lot of a lot of school is harder than it

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<v Speaker 2>was when I was a student last time. I was

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<v Speaker 2>a student forty years ago. But it's easier in a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of ways. And I am an unabashed fan of AI.

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<v Speaker 2>You you plug in your sources, it spits out a

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<v Speaker 2>bibliography that's perfectly but perfectly formatted.

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<v Speaker 3>It double checks your footnots for you. I could.

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<v Speaker 2>I sent in up, I uploaded my paper and I

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<v Speaker 2>said make sure I didn't, you know, repeat any language

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<v Speaker 2>from these sources that I didn't that I didn't cite.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>This is maybe boring to people, but I'm just telling you.

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<v Speaker 2>Among the other things i'm evangelizing, I'm evangelizing for AI,

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<v Speaker 2>which is probably about That's what I mean that's what's

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<v Speaker 2>going to get me into trouble more than anything else.

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<v Speaker 3>Probably.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, anyway, I'm tempting to joke that hopefully it can

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<v Speaker 1>catch you from lapsing into any Armenian heresies or something.

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<v Speaker 1>But well, right, well, all right, almost all of our

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<v Speaker 1>listeners are familiar with you, longtime listeners of Ricochet and

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<v Speaker 1>so forth, and that Martini shot and whatnot. But it

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<v Speaker 1>just for you know, let's do a thirty second potted biography,

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<v Speaker 1>which I think I can kind of do, but add

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<v Speaker 1>in what I've left out. You're more and raised in

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<v Speaker 1>the Baltimore area.

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<v Speaker 3>Born and then we moved. I moved around a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>So's we're born there, and I'm driving there right now.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm not driving now, and I pulled away,

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<v Speaker 2>pull over, but I yeah, I was born there. And

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<v Speaker 2>then we lived in Europe and then northern California, where

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of spent most of my sort of growing

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<v Speaker 2>up times, and then and then went away to school,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I was in New England.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's that, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, right, Yeah, I see, I didn't know that you

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<v Speaker 1>moved around a bunch. I just remembered the Baltimore anchor

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<v Speaker 1>and then you went to gale measured in fine arts,

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<v Speaker 1>I think, or something like that.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh English, something even more more or less remunerative.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right, And then you stuck out for Hollywood, where

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<v Speaker 1>you were a great success for a very long time,

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<v Speaker 1>and then Hollywood got weird. We may come to a

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<v Speaker 1>little of that here at the end, but you've certainly

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<v Speaker 1>talked about how the industry has changed a lot on

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<v Speaker 1>this show and on your on Martini Shot and so forth.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's like a lot of things. It's no longer

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<v Speaker 1>the fun it used to be. I can tell that

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<v Speaker 1>from afar. Well, so here's the big question. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>after all these years working in comedy, mostly in television,

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<v Speaker 1>you just decided to go to seminary in middle age

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<v Speaker 1>and to become ordained. And so the cynics and haters.

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<v Speaker 3>Wait, thank you, thank you for saying middle age.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I you know, I'm a few years older than you,

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<v Speaker 1>only a few happily, and I'm still clinging in the

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<v Speaker 1>middle aged too. But so now the cynics and haters

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<v Speaker 1>are going to say, ah, Rob, you know the rhino,

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<v Speaker 1>the ones who think of you as a rhino. Is

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<v Speaker 1>this a midlife crisis? What precipitated this idea because this

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<v Speaker 1>is really a big thing to do.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm trying to hold on.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a little piece of cigar. I'm downside and smoking.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, I'm a writer. I was a writer

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time. I still am a writer. And

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<v Speaker 2>at a certain point, you want to write about stuff

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<v Speaker 2>that's more and more important to you, more and more

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<v Speaker 2>important to me. At a certain time, you kind of

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<v Speaker 2>want to, especially if you write screen stream plays and scripts,

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<v Speaker 2>you want to write about your SI and you want

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<v Speaker 2>to write about what's you're thinking about, not necessarily a

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<v Speaker 2>dialogue for somebody else. And then I think, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a larger this is sort of a larger

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<v Speaker 2>part of why I feel called to this. But these

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<v Speaker 2>are big that the big things are still big, and

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<v Speaker 2>just because we don't think about them, and or the

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<v Speaker 2>culture doesn't think about them, or we trivialize them, doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>make them any smaller.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like they always say, like the I preached a

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<v Speaker 2>sermon on Sunday, and one of the images I said was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know Niagara Falls. There's like a forty million gallons

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<v Speaker 2>of water go over the cliff of Niagara Falls every

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<v Speaker 2>every minute, and it's like ninety decibels. It's like two

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<v Speaker 2>leaf blowers going all the time. But if you live

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<v Speaker 2>in Niagara Falls, you just don't hear it anymore. And

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like that's kind of how we are about

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<v Speaker 2>these big thoughts, like what are we doing here?

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<v Speaker 3>What's our purpose?

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<v Speaker 2>What's our what's our purpose to our our own potential?

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<v Speaker 3>And what's our purpose? What's our what are our.

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<v Speaker 2>What do we call to do with everyone else on

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<v Speaker 2>the planet and those I don't know. The place where

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<v Speaker 2>people think these things through for me is the Church

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<v Speaker 2>and the and the figure that seems to have the

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<v Speaker 2>most make the most sense and have the most impact

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<v Speaker 2>was Jesus, So you know, start there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean this may sound odd, but there are

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<v Speaker 1>sent There's two things that most people don't like to

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<v Speaker 1>think about. One is the abyss, you know, the terrible abyss,

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<v Speaker 1>right right right. But then the other one is God

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<v Speaker 1>and for the for the the inherent reason that, at

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<v Speaker 1>least in the monotheistic faith traditions, God is unknowable by definition.

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<v Speaker 1>We can say more about that if we want, right

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<v Speaker 1>and uh and then plus I mean that's just on

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<v Speaker 1>the what you might say the philosophical theological level. You can't.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a reason we call it faith and reason or

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<v Speaker 1>reason and revelation, right right, And yet theology is the

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<v Speaker 1>attempt to reason and about God to the extent we can,

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<v Speaker 1>and that you know, footnotes to one hundred different books.

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<v Speaker 3>To follow, right, right, right right.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree with you completely, By the way, I'm of

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<v Speaker 1>that same disposition. I'm fascinated by both theology and philosophy,

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<v Speaker 1>and they overlap a lot. On the other hand, I

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<v Speaker 1>can see it's not for everybody. It's kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>rarefied inclination. And it's one thing to go to church

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<v Speaker 1>every week and read some good books and so forth.

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<v Speaker 1>It's another one than to say I'm going to throw

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<v Speaker 1>in one hundred percent like you have.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I mean, I kind of feel like I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to get I don't want to give anybody.

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<v Speaker 3>The wrong impression I am.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not the biggest fan of theology and I and

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<v Speaker 2>I reckon I see the irony there that I am

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<v Speaker 2>in fact at a place called Princeton Theological Seminary. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, sometimes I think theology is just a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of words we wrote to solve a problem that we

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<v Speaker 2>created with our own words. So you know, we're you know,

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<v Speaker 2>basically getting ourselves out of a maze that we set

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<v Speaker 2>for ourselves. And I think sometimes, you know, you could

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<v Speaker 2>I could read have now. I do it now, not

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<v Speaker 2>for a living, but I do it now as a vocation.

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<v Speaker 1>I read a lot of.

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<v Speaker 2>Theology, and sometimes I just find myself like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>I've read five pages of this and I have no

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<v Speaker 2>idea what this person's talking about. And they're not even German,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they're like, this is actually something who speaks

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<v Speaker 2>English is the first language.

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<v Speaker 3>So you know, I think the experience of and I sometimes.

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<v Speaker 2>Feel like the other books, the theology, and all the

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<v Speaker 2>language we use is a way for us to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of navigate and negotiate the you know, the red print

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<v Speaker 2>in the Bible and the New Testament, the stuff that

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus says.

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<v Speaker 3>So he says these incredibly.

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<v Speaker 2>Impossible things, right, you know, love your nature, people say,

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<v Speaker 2>he says, forgive your enemies. Now he doesn't say that.

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<v Speaker 2>He says, love your enemies much harder. I gotta forgive

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<v Speaker 2>my enemies. Yeah, they're forgiven.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't love them. Give to all who asks, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>All that stuff, give away your stuff if you have

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<v Speaker 2>two codes give one away, and so those are pretty clear, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So some of theology I think is designed for two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand years to figure out what else he might have

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<v Speaker 2>meant aside from those really difficult things. Because we're not

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<v Speaker 2>doing those things, we're gonna we will try to come

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<v Speaker 2>up with some.

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<v Speaker 3>Other things we can do.

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<v Speaker 2>And I look that that's a human that's a human impulse,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a human invasion, which just fine, But I kind

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<v Speaker 2>of feel like the just to be a slightly Christian

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<v Speaker 2>chopiness here for a minute. The singular thing about Christianity

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<v Speaker 2>is that Jesus says that you are important. Your unanus

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<v Speaker 2>is important, your steveness is important. You will leave the

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<v Speaker 2>thought for you, steve for me. Rob Not because we

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<v Speaker 2>belong to a tribe or we belong to a culture,

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<v Speaker 2>or because we have a dharma or we have a

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<v Speaker 2>rank that we need to live out. It's because of

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<v Speaker 2>who specifically we are. That's a that is a radical,

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<v Speaker 2>earth changing concept. There is that changed human nature, that

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<v Speaker 2>changed the way human beings think of themselves.

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<v Speaker 3>And I don't know that seems worth.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah.

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<v Speaker 2>I got a couple of years to spend just learning that,

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<v Speaker 2>and then if I'm lucky, you know, God willing and

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<v Speaker 2>the people consenting. I would like to spend the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of my little summers that the Lord is giving me

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<v Speaker 2>to to talk about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so, I mean, and it's taken up. Actually, I

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<v Speaker 1>think we're still figuring out the implications of what you

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<v Speaker 1>just said, because I mean I tend to run off

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, my backgrounds and political philosophy to the

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<v Speaker 1>political dimension, which was the New Testament teaches that our identity,

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<v Speaker 1>our worth does not depend on the nation we live in. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>And it takes a long time. You know, Machiavelli comes

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<v Speaker 1>along and you know, thirteen hundred years later says, well,

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<v Speaker 1>well wait a minute, that's really bad, right, that's part

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<v Speaker 1>of his complaint.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>And then but then you know, in a certain extent

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<v Speaker 1>we call the liberal tradition grows out of all that. Right, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>that's that's the subject for another day. But you have

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<v Speaker 1>been I think a life along episcopalian.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which which you know with all the intensity of

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<v Speaker 2>that that that entails.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well look, I know the jokes are are our

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<v Speaker 1>friend Andrew Clayman, who you know, converted from Judaism to

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<v Speaker 1>evangelical Christianity. Someone said, or are you an Episcopalian. He said, no,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a real Christian.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he said, but he said, the way you put

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<v Speaker 2>it to me, he goes, well, you know, call me

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<v Speaker 2>when you are joining a religion with that believes in God.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Right, Well, the reason I brought that up is

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<v Speaker 1>it does seem to me that liturgical denominations, you know, Catholics, Episcopalians, Anglicans,

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<v Speaker 1>or Eastern Orthodox, they tend to be a much more

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<v Speaker 1>part of because of the liturgical form of worship. They

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<v Speaker 1>tend to be much more or put much more emphasis

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<v Speaker 1>on serious, in depth theological step. I think I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's fair to say.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's probably fair. Yeah. I mean, also they

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<v Speaker 3>have a they are.

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<v Speaker 2>They come out of the early Church tradition of doing

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<v Speaker 2>exactly that, So they aren't. I mean, you could you

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<v Speaker 2>can make the cases of Anglican and some mainline Protestants

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<v Speaker 2>are a reformed, but even by being reformed, you're still

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<v Speaker 2>choosing the foundation of the suirt So you're going back

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<v Speaker 2>to the time. I mean, all the reformers, even the Anglicans,

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<v Speaker 2>said well, we're more Catholic than they've lost their way

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<v Speaker 2>and we're back to what you know, so less capture. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't really not non a nominational churches which are

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly vibrant, don't They don't.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think they have that as there you know

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<v Speaker 3>the DNA.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, now you use the word. I want to go

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<v Speaker 1>back and ask you what is uh? I guess this

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<v Speaker 1>is a deeply personal question. You used a keyword to

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<v Speaker 1>me anyway when you said called, this is a calling.

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<v Speaker 1>Now there's you know, a couple of ways of thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about that. One is and I've had a clergy friend

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<v Speaker 1>of mine who said, from an early age they felt

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<v Speaker 1>they had received the call of God in that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>spiritual transcendental sense. By the way, one of them are episcopalian.

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<v Speaker 1>Who went into this bishop and said the bishop said,

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<v Speaker 1>why do you want to be a priest? Who said,

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<v Speaker 1>because I've been called by God? And he said most

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<v Speaker 1>of his friends said, you told the bishop what. But

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<v Speaker 1>but there's also, I mean, the other way of thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about it is it's a it's a consequent logic. And

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<v Speaker 1>so you know when when you said called, yeah, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you mean or what is that? How is that?

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<v Speaker 1>Manifested itself to you?

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<v Speaker 4>Well?

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<v Speaker 2>As a good episcopalian, I am uncomfortable talking about these issues, right,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, then you know, how do you make it episcopalia?

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<v Speaker 2>And look at his shoes you mentioned you mentioned Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>or money, like that's how you get it. So so,

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<v Speaker 2>but I do remember going and talking talking to the

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<v Speaker 2>rector of the church I went to in Manhattan I

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<v Speaker 2>still go to, and I was talking to her about, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>my first time in that church and not not my

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<v Speaker 2>first time, but the first time I went to that

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<v Speaker 2>church sort of just to go to his service because

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<v Speaker 2>I've been there for weddings and stuff, and uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the candles were lit on it was a night. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a six pm Sunday service. It is beautiful and I

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<v Speaker 2>sort of walked in there for I don't know why.

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<v Speaker 2>And she said to me, said, so you think maybe

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<v Speaker 2>the Holy Spirit was guiding you into the church. And

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<v Speaker 2>I said, looked at her, I said, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>And she said, does that make you uncomfortable that I

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<v Speaker 2>said that. He said, yes, it makes me uncomfortable. So

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<v Speaker 2>I call the call. You know, Partly I think that

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<v Speaker 2>if you can, if you want to deepen your experience

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<v Speaker 2>with faith, or you want to eat your experiences as

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<v Speaker 2>a writer, you're going to have to get called to

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<v Speaker 2>learn something about big stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>Also, I kind of feel like that.

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<v Speaker 2>The the great thing about one of the great things

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<v Speaker 2>I should say about the Christian faith is that it's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a what now faith and.

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<v Speaker 3>That you you know, Jesus knows us so well.

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<v Speaker 2>And by the way, I don't think you even have

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<v Speaker 2>to believe in the divinity of Jesus to be to

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<v Speaker 2>say most of what I'm about to say. He knows

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<v Speaker 2>us so well, he knows people so well that he

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<v Speaker 2>knows what terrifies us deep down, as you put it, like,

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<v Speaker 2>is this all there is? Am I unlovable? Am I unloved?

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<v Speaker 2>If my people in the in my life who loved

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<v Speaker 2>me knew who I really was, would they still loved?

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<v Speaker 3>Am I alone?

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<v Speaker 2>And Jesus says, okay, in order I'll take I'll tell

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<v Speaker 2>you are not unloved.

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<v Speaker 3>You are the loved child of God. You are not alone.

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<v Speaker 3>We are all. I am always with you, I know you,

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<v Speaker 3>and I love you.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>The college for purity, which we say in the Piscopal Faith,

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<v Speaker 2>is the God to whom all from whom no secrets

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<v Speaker 2>are hid, to whom all all desires are known, and

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<v Speaker 2>then finally you are an air to everlasting life. So

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<v Speaker 2>I've taken you know, if Jesus is there, he said,

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<v Speaker 2>So I've taken care of your big fears.

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<v Speaker 3>Now what so if you.

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<v Speaker 2>Accept that, even if you accept that that is a

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<v Speaker 2>destination of a journey that you're on, that full belief experience,

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<v Speaker 2>the question is still.

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<v Speaker 3>Is now what?

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<v Speaker 4>Okay?

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<v Speaker 3>Now are you going to do with all that?

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<v Speaker 2>And for me it was like, okay, well, if I

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<v Speaker 2>believe all that, I guess I should do something with it.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess I should put it into practice.

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<v Speaker 2>And I know you people could put into practice a

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<v Speaker 2>million different ways, but mine was like, I want to

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<v Speaker 2>write about this, I want to preach about this. I

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<v Speaker 2>want to celebrate the foundational prayer of the Eucharistic prayer

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<v Speaker 2>that we have, which is kind of all of.

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<v Speaker 3>Those things all wrapped up in one thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's that's kind of and I and I wish

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<v Speaker 2>I could say now listen, I really felt the Holy

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<v Speaker 2>Spirit guided me. A God came and like I was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Jesus sat next to me the bus stop

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<v Speaker 2>and told me, here's what you got to do.

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<v Speaker 3>But I haven't. I don't, I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>That is I haven't had that experience, but I definitely

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<v Speaker 2>have been led somewhere by something somehow. And I you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I turned sixty in June. I'm not gonna I decided

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<v Speaker 2>to stop. I've decided to stop tuning that part out.

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<v Speaker 1>Well. I mean, look, I'm all one for theological modesty,

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<v Speaker 1>even that even if I'd heard a voice from the

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<v Speaker 1>wilderness or from the bush or something, I think I'd

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<v Speaker 1>be reloved to say so openly or directly myself. So

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<v Speaker 1>I certainly get that. But it's that's one of those

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<v Speaker 1>mysteries of faith, right that we have to live with

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<v Speaker 1>and and and and accept that we are not going

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to conquer that one hundred percent.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and look, if you, if you, if you believe

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<v Speaker 2>the first step, which is that you know he's everywhere,

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<v Speaker 2>he's inside you, and he's a part of you, and

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<v Speaker 2>you just tuned it out, you just need to tune

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<v Speaker 2>that part back in, you know, Like I know, you

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<v Speaker 2>could be a classic Freudian and still believe that's the case.

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<v Speaker 2>I happen to think that it's something more universal, but

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<v Speaker 2>the practice of it is the same for me, and

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<v Speaker 2>that once once I crossed that line, I'm like, Oka, well.

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<v Speaker 3>What I'm really going to go? I mean, look, I

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<v Speaker 3>would love I've told you this before.

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<v Speaker 4>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I I have a friend of mine who's a who's

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<v Speaker 2>a rector of a church on Cape Cod and he's

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<v Speaker 2>an old guy's you know, he's grew up in a

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<v Speaker 2>Roman Catholic family in Rhode Island, like niney thousand brothers

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<v Speaker 2>and sisters and wanted to get married. But he also

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to be a priest, so it's really only one

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<v Speaker 2>one path for him, which is piscical priest. And he said,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, well, why do you want to do this?

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<v Speaker 2>And I said, you know, I gave him all those

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<v Speaker 2>reasons and I said, you know, and also look, I meant,

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<v Speaker 2>I gotta be honest. There's a ten percent of me

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<v Speaker 2>wants to wear that collar into a Network comedy.

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<v Speaker 3>Pitch meeting and pitch a show and see what they do.

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<v Speaker 2>And he goes, okay, well that's not as bad as

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<v Speaker 2>what I thought you were going to what you should

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<v Speaker 2>he said, you should also know this that when you

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<v Speaker 2>are gained, they give you a card that you can

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<v Speaker 2>put on your dash and you could park anywhere. And

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<v Speaker 2>he said, that is not a reason to do this.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's not not a reason to do this, like

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<v Speaker 2>you know, so all these you know, fuck, I like

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<v Speaker 2>to think that's a small portion of my call, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's not.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not nothing.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm going to look at tordienda. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>come to Hollywood in the world of the clergy, because

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<v Speaker 1>I forget who said it. It might have been Churchill who

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<v Speaker 1>said a joke is a very serious thing, and so

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<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to But yeah, but I do want to.

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<v Speaker 1>I do want to linger on theology what you're doing

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<v Speaker 1>right now, and do stay a little bit in chronology.

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<v Speaker 1>So like you say, I totally get it when you

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<v Speaker 1>say that theology can be kind of off putting in

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<v Speaker 1>dance and all the rest of that. So tell me

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about you know, your first year of studies.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it what you expected, either academically or theologically. Has

401
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:19.759
<v Speaker 1>it been hard to learn different languages in Middle Age,

402
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:21.680
<v Speaker 1>which you know you say you know you can't run

403
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<v Speaker 1>a language after you're eighteen or something. True.

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00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:25.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm here to tell you that is that is

405
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<v Speaker 2>absolutely true. You can't, you should not do it. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>I'm on Friday. I was sort of like my direct midpoint.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's a three year program. I've been in a

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<v Speaker 2>year and a half. So Friday last, the fall semester

409
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<v Speaker 2>was over on Friday, and I spent some time struggling

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<v Speaker 2>with Greek, and I thought, okay, well, you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>you Princeton is a Presbyterian school basically started by Presbyterians

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<v Speaker 2>who are incredibly impressive intellectually. And if you are a

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<v Speaker 2>Presbyterian and you have a Presbyterian pastor, buy him a

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<v Speaker 2>drink or something, because he really he really know stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>You have to know Greek and.

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<v Speaker 2>Hebrew, and to be an Episcopalian you just kind of

417
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<v Speaker 2>don't have to know those.

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<v Speaker 3>You have to be familiar with him. But that's about it,

419
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<v Speaker 3>Like they don't zo test.

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<v Speaker 2>So I struggled through Greek, and I think I might

421
00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.000
<v Speaker 2>do Hebrew in an intense short class at some point

422
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:19.920
<v Speaker 2>between now and the time I graduate, just so I

423
00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:22.680
<v Speaker 2>know a little bit about it and I can look

424
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.119
<v Speaker 2>stuff up meaningfully. So there was that part, and then

425
00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:28.960
<v Speaker 2>there's the other part, which is sort of the classic

426
00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:37.720
<v Speaker 2>dance you know call Karl Barth style theology, which is

427
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:42.480
<v Speaker 2>interesting and in many cases really compelling and arresting. I

428
00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:45.960
<v Speaker 2>tend to squirrel my way around, so like the you know,

429
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:51.000
<v Speaker 2>the occasional Karl Barth writings and letters are great, and

430
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:53.279
<v Speaker 2>I kind of like, oh, maybe I'll just stick with those,

431
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:57.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, I won't pick up this big book. The

432
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.519
<v Speaker 2>history of the church is fascinating. Of course, that's been

433
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:04.680
<v Speaker 2>really fun to study that, mostly because it's just an

434
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.640
<v Speaker 2>early church anyway, is just a series of gruesome tortures

435
00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:11.920
<v Speaker 2>and two hundred years of persecution then followed by a

436
00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:14.279
<v Speaker 2>thousand years of political power.

437
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:14.759
<v Speaker 3>You know.

438
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:16.640
<v Speaker 2>It's like it's fun to read how quickly they all

439
00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.640
<v Speaker 2>they all change the minute Constantine said okay, you're I

440
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:25.240
<v Speaker 2>want to you suddenly suddenly they got very different. But

441
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I but my classmates, I've been I've been really surprised

442
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:28.480
<v Speaker 2>by my classmates.

443
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:28.960
<v Speaker 3>They're young.

444
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:32.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm the oldest person in the I'm the

445
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:34.960
<v Speaker 2>oldest person in the room, mostly because my professors are

446
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:38.960
<v Speaker 2>younger than I am too, So so this's that experience

447
00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:42.599
<v Speaker 2>is kind of weird. But it's really fun because they

448
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.119
<v Speaker 2>are If you if you're feeling pessimistic about the future,

449
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.400
<v Speaker 2>you should just come and sit in on a class

450
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:55.640
<v Speaker 2>because they're sort of thoughtful and compassionate and struggling to

451
00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:59.680
<v Speaker 2>make it all make sense, which in an incredibly Christian way.

452
00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean capital C and SAC, which is interesting. It's

453
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:05.759
<v Speaker 2>really kind of I find them. I really admire them.

454
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:09.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know. I I occasionally will dust off some

455
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.440
<v Speaker 1>Carl Bart to try and read and then give up

456
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:14.359
<v Speaker 1>after a while. But there are two things about it.

457
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:16.319
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, it's the most famous work, is

458
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.680
<v Speaker 1>that what six volume Church Dogmatics, right, Yeah. But one

459
00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:22.400
<v Speaker 1>of the fun things about that is is that he

460
00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:25.759
<v Speaker 1>since somewhere something along the lines of systematic theology is

461
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.559
<v Speaker 1>an oxymoron, and that's why he wrote dogmatics instead of

462
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:31.799
<v Speaker 1>systematic theology. So that's sort of in clients to I

463
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.000
<v Speaker 1>think what you were saying. And the other thing was,

464
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, in German, nothing that matters except we all

465
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.359
<v Speaker 1>use a German word sometimes to make us sound more sophisticated.

466
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.640
<v Speaker 1>He said God's was gone's onder meaning holy other meaning

467
00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.960
<v Speaker 1>because God is one, He's not intelligible the normal human ways.

468
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.440
<v Speaker 1>And I've always taken that to heart because that's what

469
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.559
<v Speaker 1>set him at odds against Saint Thomas, Coins and Catholics. Okay,

470
00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.279
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to keep out too much on particular things,

471
00:22:55.880 --> 00:23:00.279
<v Speaker 1>but he vacation yeah, I know. Well, all right, me

472
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.519
<v Speaker 1>let me pose the question to you this way, I say,

473
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.160
<v Speaker 1>I actually put those guys down. At one point in life,

474
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:09.559
<v Speaker 1>I was sort of passingly familiar with some of the

475
00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:14.000
<v Speaker 1>leading theologians who were controversial, like Rudolph Boltmann thirty years ago,

476
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:17.960
<v Speaker 1>and so I sort of wondering, I'll ask this question

477
00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:20.200
<v Speaker 1>two or three different forms and grab whichever one you want.

478
00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Who are in your mind are some of the more

479
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.240
<v Speaker 1>notable theologians writing today or recently who have been If

480
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:30.759
<v Speaker 1>there are any influences on you or are you I'll

481
00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:32.440
<v Speaker 1>say myself, I'd like to say I'm a C. S.

482
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Lewis Christian who is not a theologian. He was an

483
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.920
<v Speaker 1>apologist and interesting guy. But also, you know, I used

484
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.720
<v Speaker 1>to and still do read Thomas Merton and some of

485
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:45.519
<v Speaker 1>the contemplatives some oh yeah, right, And so anyway, what

486
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.000
<v Speaker 1>are some of the influences on your religious thinking, whether

487
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.240
<v Speaker 1>you know whether gear drive theologians or more contemplative writers.

488
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:52.880
<v Speaker 1>Do you have a list?

489
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:56.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, I have a list in formation, I would obviously

490
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.599
<v Speaker 2>see us Lewis is there. And it's interesting that people

491
00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:01.319
<v Speaker 2>they I've heard this kind of thing.

492
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:02.480
<v Speaker 3>People say, well C. S. Lewis.

493
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:04.799
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you're not a theologian obviously, and people always

494
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.559
<v Speaker 2>say things, well as if is this somehow that well

495
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:11.160
<v Speaker 2>he doesn't have a license to practice theology, like he's unlicensed,

496
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, he just does it in his living room. Uh.

497
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:15.799
<v Speaker 3>But C. S.

498
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Lewis has had I think more of a.

499
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:22.759
<v Speaker 3>Profound religious effect on people. I think J. R. Tolkien

500
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:23.519
<v Speaker 3>probably has too.

501
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean I'm not really I mean I struggle through

502
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.480
<v Speaker 2>those books that are not really my thing, but uh,

503
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:32.559
<v Speaker 2>you are talking about somebody who was deeply, deeply committed

504
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:34.680
<v Speaker 2>to the story and.

505
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:37.000
<v Speaker 3>To the timelessness of the story.

506
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:39.400
<v Speaker 1>I liked.

507
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.000
<v Speaker 3>I mean, there's some Anglican ones that I can think

508
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.240
<v Speaker 3>are really interesting. Standy Howard ass is pretty interesting. He's in.

509
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:51.480
<v Speaker 2>At Duke I think, yeah, And then I like, I might,

510
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:57.640
<v Speaker 2>And then there's like the the more recent Anglican writers

511
00:24:57.799 --> 00:24:59.039
<v Speaker 2>are Rowan.

512
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:04.079
<v Speaker 3>Uh. I always gonna say, rohaka sent it. It's not

513
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:04.759
<v Speaker 3>mister Bean.

514
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:06.799
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

515
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.519
<v Speaker 2>I I don't mean yeah, yeah, just I went out

516
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:14.279
<v Speaker 2>of my head. Anybody who's trying, anybody who I think

517
00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.680
<v Speaker 2>is thinking. Fleming Rutledge is an American and she's written

518
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:21.279
<v Speaker 2>a wonderful book on on Uh.

519
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:22.039
<v Speaker 3>The Crucifixion.

520
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.799
<v Speaker 2>Uh so all these all this stuff is great.

521
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:28.519
<v Speaker 3>I also I also love.

522
00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:35.480
<v Speaker 2>The the historians with faith. So you know, Tom Holland's

523
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:39.680
<v Speaker 2>dominion obviously, if you like, if you like, uh.

524
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:42.200
<v Speaker 3>The rest is history, Tom Holland's dominion is really wonderful.

525
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:44.839
<v Speaker 3>I think.

526
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Also there's a guy, Jeffrey Kreipel, who has written this

527
00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:48.799
<v Speaker 2>book which is.

528
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:50.079
<v Speaker 3>Bananas by the way.

529
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:54.000
<v Speaker 2>It's called How to Bleed, how to Think Impossibly, and

530
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:58.599
<v Speaker 2>he it's a very interesting, very it's not dense, but

531
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:00.000
<v Speaker 2>it's just like it's all over the place.

532
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:00.960
<v Speaker 3>It's beautiful, it's.

533
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Funny and witty and smart and erudite, but it's it's

534
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:04.480
<v Speaker 2>all over the place.

535
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:09.559
<v Speaker 3>And there's a guy named Michael Edwards who is such

536
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:10.640
<v Speaker 3>an incredible show off.

537
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.960
<v Speaker 2>He's an American, I know, he's an English guy who

538
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:17.079
<v Speaker 2>speaks French and occasionally writes in French, which is like, okay,

539
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:19.240
<v Speaker 2>get out of town as far as I'm concerned. But

540
00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:23.480
<v Speaker 2>he wrote a wonderful book called the uh, the the Poetry,

541
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the Poetry in the Bible or the Yeah, I think

542
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:27.400
<v Speaker 2>it's called Poetry in the Bible or something like that.

543
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:32.559
<v Speaker 2>And it's a it's really really brilliant and I'm sweeping

544
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.799
<v Speaker 2>and I like that. I also, by the way, I'm

545
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:37.160
<v Speaker 2>also like, I think Raymond Brown is great.

546
00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:39.200
<v Speaker 3>I think and to you right is great. Those are

547
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:40.599
<v Speaker 3>like more New Testament scholars.

548
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

549
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:43.920
<v Speaker 3>I just finished the paper, actually just turned it on Friday.

550
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.839
<v Speaker 2>That I use Raymond Brown and Boltman together talking about John.

551
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:55.000
<v Speaker 3>Because yeah, because I think they I think they're right.

552
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:57.319
<v Speaker 2>I said this better the paper, But I think they're

553
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:01.319
<v Speaker 2>right about the historicity of it and how the text is.

554
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.039
<v Speaker 2>You know, what what parts of the text work, what

555
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.240
<v Speaker 2>parts don't, what parts were should have shoved in, and

556
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:05.960
<v Speaker 2>what parts weren't.

557
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:08.880
<v Speaker 3>But I I.

558
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:10.839
<v Speaker 2>Don't think any of that matters because I think the

559
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.839
<v Speaker 2>story is fantastic and the construction of the story is

560
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.559
<v Speaker 2>a masterpiece. And the fact that whoever was the final

561
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.920
<v Speaker 2>redactor of that gospel took pieces and put them together.

562
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:25.559
<v Speaker 3>There were some are floating around, like the Adulterous Woman

563
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:26.400
<v Speaker 3>was a piece that was flowing.

564
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.039
<v Speaker 2>It was in Luke for there there you know, their

565
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:32.160
<v Speaker 2>manuscripts of Luke where it's there, and took it and

566
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:33.680
<v Speaker 2>put it right where it belongs.

567
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:36.839
<v Speaker 3>Is kind of astonishing. Anyway, that was my theory.

568
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, uh, by the way, I've heard of I mean,

569
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.359
<v Speaker 1>some of these people I've reel like, come holl on

570
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:46.640
<v Speaker 1>an empty right, and I'm actually reading Stanley Harwiss has

571
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:48.960
<v Speaker 1>a memoir called Hannah's Child that I'm actually a third

572
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:50.319
<v Speaker 1>of the way through reading right now.

573
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:53.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean his book of sermons. I don't

574
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:55.160
<v Speaker 2>know if it were all sermons or just essays, but

575
00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.799
<v Speaker 2>it's really good. I mean it's really good. I mean, yeah, look,

576
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:03.440
<v Speaker 2>there's some stuff been there and you're like, Okay, I'm not.

577
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:08.279
<v Speaker 2>Here's the phrase I usually use because I think it's

578
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:13.440
<v Speaker 2>the least inceentiary I can easily I can get a

579
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of value and meaning out of a lot of

580
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:18.680
<v Speaker 2>those writers without having to agree with them that the

581
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Paris Climate Accords would have saved the earth.

582
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Of course, Yeah, that's right. I can overlook that stuff too.

583
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.160
<v Speaker 1>Let me go back, though, we were just saying prompts

584
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:29.839
<v Speaker 1>this question, which is it took about, you know, moving

585
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:31.599
<v Speaker 1>the story around to put it in the right place,

586
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:34.880
<v Speaker 1>to what extent is your long experience as a scriptwriter,

587
00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:37.880
<v Speaker 1>as a person constructing shows. How does that help you

588
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.400
<v Speaker 1>understand these things? But also is it don't say to

589
00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:45.960
<v Speaker 1>your classmates, notice that you have to bring this different

590
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:47.440
<v Speaker 1>background perspective to things.

591
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:50.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because I'm Yeah, they notice everything I do because

592
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:54.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm so weird, so strange, this.

593
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:54.720
<v Speaker 3>Old man is here.

594
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:02.119
<v Speaker 2>What I'm surprised about the story stuff is that you.

595
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:04.480
<v Speaker 3>And I listen. I mean no disrespect to these brilliant scholars.

596
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:06.359
<v Speaker 2>They know more than I do, and they certainly read

597
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:13.279
<v Speaker 2>the Greek and I haven't it. Sometimes I find them

598
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:18.839
<v Speaker 2>struggling with something that is obvious to me, because this

599
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.480
<v Speaker 2>is how you make a story work. So the awkward

600
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.279
<v Speaker 2>jump in John specifically about like, okay, get all this theology.

601
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.400
<v Speaker 2>It's like high flute language. And then there's and then

602
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:31.920
<v Speaker 2>suddenly he's you know, he's changing.

603
00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:34.400
<v Speaker 3>Water to wine, and like, well, why is why?

604
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.720
<v Speaker 2>And John does he go, why is the temple scene

605
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:39.720
<v Speaker 2>where they're overturning the tables? Why is that in the

606
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:44.400
<v Speaker 2>first act? Basically right, that's like a and why, Like

607
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.079
<v Speaker 2>it's and people have all these reasons for it. It's like, well,

608
00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:50.680
<v Speaker 2>in the story, you want the story of the person.

609
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean not to be Joseph Campbell about it, but

610
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.319
<v Speaker 2>but actually you can be like you have to, you

611
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.319
<v Speaker 2>have to burn the boats, you have to you have

612
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.759
<v Speaker 2>to there's no turning back at the first scene, he's

613
00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:05.160
<v Speaker 2>turning over tables.

614
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:07.880
<v Speaker 3>That means the end is in motion.

615
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:12.400
<v Speaker 2>And if you're constructing a story, that's where you want

616
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:13.200
<v Speaker 2>it now.

617
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:15.119
<v Speaker 3>The other the other synoptics have it.

618
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:16.799
<v Speaker 2>At the end, right, and that makes sense too, But

619
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:20.039
<v Speaker 2>that's just a different way to tell the story. And

620
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:22.039
<v Speaker 2>we have four Gospels for a reason. It's not so

621
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.160
<v Speaker 2>we get to pick one. It's because all are true.

622
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:32.960
<v Speaker 2>And that's also really hard. The the the you know,

623
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.359
<v Speaker 2>the when they go they call it historical historical textual

624
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:39.559
<v Speaker 2>criticism or something where you're trying to figure out is

625
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:42.839
<v Speaker 2>this is this the Q source or the P source

626
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:45.079
<v Speaker 2>or all that stuff. And then, and I was in

627
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:47.920
<v Speaker 2>my Old Testament and New Testament classes last semester that

628
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:50.279
<v Speaker 2>was a big part of trying to explain to people

629
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:54.279
<v Speaker 2>what how to wrap their head around.

630
00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:56.160
<v Speaker 3>Teasing in one.

631
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Text who wrote what? And I was like finally had

632
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:03.039
<v Speaker 2>a raise my hands, say, this is what. This is

633
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:06.839
<v Speaker 2>called a Writer's Guild credit Arbitration committee.

634
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:09.160
<v Speaker 3>And I've been on a million of them.

635
00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:11.200
<v Speaker 2>Man. What they do is they send you every script,

636
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:13.680
<v Speaker 2>every version of every script, every version of that story,

637
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:17.440
<v Speaker 2>every every outline, every every draft that was ever written

638
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:19.960
<v Speaker 2>by and that with nobody's name on it, and then

639
00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.880
<v Speaker 2>the final draft, and you've got to decide who gets

640
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:30.559
<v Speaker 2>the credit, meaning who gets the money. Basically, and unfortunately

641
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:32.640
<v Speaker 2>for the Gospel writers, and for the certainly and for

642
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:35.240
<v Speaker 2>the Hebrew Bible describes there's no money.

643
00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:37.119
<v Speaker 3>You know, they're not gonna get any money. But it's

644
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:37.799
<v Speaker 3>not that unusual.

645
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I see this bit comes from that like

646
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:44.279
<v Speaker 2>it makes It makes total sense to anybody in show business.

647
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm sure the idea must have occurred to you

648
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:49.640
<v Speaker 1>that your pitch meeting and your caller will be a

649
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:53.519
<v Speaker 1>sitcom of the writer's room for the four Gospels. No,

650
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:54.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I.

651
00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:57.000
<v Speaker 3>Believe me. I thought of it.

652
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:00.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I figure you want to right, I want to say,

653
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:02.440
<v Speaker 1>I want to ask more about that. But before we do,

654
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:05.440
<v Speaker 1>let's do one last thing from your present moment. You

655
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:08.359
<v Speaker 1>said you just preached your first sermon. So now is

656
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.480
<v Speaker 1>that something all the students are expected to do as

657
00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:12.119
<v Speaker 1>part of their course of study or is it something

658
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 1>you want to do? So tell us about and then

659
00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:15.119
<v Speaker 1>tell us what you preached.

660
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:16.400
<v Speaker 3>Well, there's always a year.

661
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:19.400
<v Speaker 2>I think everyone has to do a year of working

662
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:21.799
<v Speaker 2>in a church, so you have an internship. So I'm

663
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.680
<v Speaker 2>the world's oldest intern at the local Episcopal church in Princeton,

664
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.839
<v Speaker 2>which is right basically on the campus. And so, you know,

665
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:30.799
<v Speaker 2>I go it and I do little Bible study stuff

666
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.160
<v Speaker 2>when it comes up, and I do morning and evening

667
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:34.119
<v Speaker 2>prayer when it comes.

668
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.279
<v Speaker 3>Up, and I help lead a little.

669
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Monday night conversation sometimes and I just fill in it,

670
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:41.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, And then you got to preach.

671
00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.440
<v Speaker 3>And so I think I get to preach next semester two.

672
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:48.599
<v Speaker 2>And this was the fourth fourth Advent you know, no, sorry,

673
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:52.720
<v Speaker 2>third Advent, a third Sunday and Advent, which is you know,

674
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.720
<v Speaker 2>it's like, okay, waiting waiting, waiting patients, patience patients, that's advent,

675
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:59.319
<v Speaker 2>you know. And so that's kind of what I said.

676
00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:01.359
<v Speaker 2>It nicer, but that's kind of where I was, you know,

677
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:04.079
<v Speaker 2>And it was kind of it was fun. It was

678
00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:05.759
<v Speaker 2>like a like it was fun.

679
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:09.799
<v Speaker 3>But it wasn't. I mean, you know, it's not that different.

680
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:14.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, you got an audience and you know they

681
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.359
<v Speaker 2>they have to be there, but they don't have to listen,

682
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:21.000
<v Speaker 2>and you you got to grab them with something and

683
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:22.400
<v Speaker 2>you got to tell them something they haven't heard.

684
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:24.720
<v Speaker 3>Or something they've heard but in a different way.

685
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:30.799
<v Speaker 2>And so it's really it's that I've tried to explain

686
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:34.279
<v Speaker 2>this to the rector, like about running a church and everything.

687
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:36.519
<v Speaker 2>It's like, like, you know, you know, I've been on five

688
00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:40.079
<v Speaker 2>oh one c three boards, right, and I've also run

689
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:42.640
<v Speaker 2>TV shows. That's kind of what running a church is,

690
00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:46.319
<v Speaker 2>big sprawling thing where you don't you think you have

691
00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:48.319
<v Speaker 2>a lot of power, but you don't really and you

692
00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:50.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of need all this consensus all the time, and

693
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.440
<v Speaker 2>everybody's staring at you, and uh, you know, a good

694
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:56.480
<v Speaker 2>major portion of it is just walking around like you

695
00:33:56.519 --> 00:34:00.000
<v Speaker 2>know what you're doing. And he goes, yeah, that's exactly it.

696
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:04.640
<v Speaker 2>So it's not you know, it's there there. There are

697
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:08.480
<v Speaker 2>real similarities too. But I suspect that that is true

698
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:12.400
<v Speaker 2>for many people in many jobs, and I think it.

699
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, i'd say this to all my friends and

700
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.360
<v Speaker 2>the people I meet who are my age or younger.

701
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:20.039
<v Speaker 3>Some of them like, oh, you know, I asked, I

702
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:22.519
<v Speaker 3>always kind of wanted to do that, and I'm like,

703
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:23.000
<v Speaker 3>do it.

704
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:28.519
<v Speaker 2>Do it because the church, your church needs you, whatever

705
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:30.039
<v Speaker 2>church that is, so.

706
00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:33.760
<v Speaker 1>Uh, you know, in politics, I often remind people of

707
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:36.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, Ronald Reagan saying, I don't know how somebody

708
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:41.079
<v Speaker 1>could do this job as president and not be an actor, right, right,

709
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:44.119
<v Speaker 1>And and you know, some of Winston Churchill's friends and

710
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:46.239
<v Speaker 1>many of us critics said, Winston, you missed your calling

711
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:48.599
<v Speaker 1>in life. You should have been an actor. Right. So

712
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.880
<v Speaker 1>in other words, I argue that the most successful people

713
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.159
<v Speaker 1>on the global station politics are people who have a

714
00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:57.719
<v Speaker 1>good instinct and ability to understand the dramatic or theatrical

715
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:03.280
<v Speaker 1>aspects of human life, especially political life. So yeah, so

716
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, some churches overdo the production, you know, like

717
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Robert Schure's Crystal Cathedral. All that leads me leaves me

718
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:12.880
<v Speaker 1>very cold. But that's why I like liturgical worship. But

719
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:16.000
<v Speaker 1>what I'm trying to get closer to here is, well,

720
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:19.320
<v Speaker 1>I've use it as a transition to religion in Hollywood,

721
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:21.199
<v Speaker 1>and there's two or three ways that can go. One

722
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.199
<v Speaker 1>is are there many religious people in Hollywood? I think

723
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:30.079
<v Speaker 1>more interesting is the challenge of sub self consciously making religious,

724
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:35.559
<v Speaker 1>religiously themed films. And you often hear, especially conservative Christians, saying,

725
00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:38.079
<v Speaker 1>why can't we make movies about Bible stories? And sometimes

726
00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:41.119
<v Speaker 1>people will try and they're really bad. Yeah, you know,

727
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:43.360
<v Speaker 1>and C. S. Lewis used to say, don't concentrate on

728
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.760
<v Speaker 1>self consciously doing a religious message to good art, and

729
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:49.440
<v Speaker 1>if it happens to incorporate, that's what works. Right, So

730
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:52.559
<v Speaker 1>as Narnia books for example. Yeah, and then you can

731
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:55.159
<v Speaker 1>think of there have been some religious movies over the

732
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.800
<v Speaker 1>years that have done extremely well. Ben Her maybe he's

733
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:01.480
<v Speaker 1>one of the great classics, right, Yeah. And then sort

734
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:03.760
<v Speaker 1>of out of nowhere, Mel Gibson does The Passion of

735
00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:08.159
<v Speaker 1>the Christ and it's this monster seller, right, a big

736
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:10.519
<v Speaker 1>box office hit at a studios say we're going to

737
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:12.599
<v Speaker 1>do something like that, and they try and they flop

738
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:15.119
<v Speaker 1>at it. And so I don't know what the question

739
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:16.920
<v Speaker 1>here exactly is. You can see where I'm going with

740
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.079
<v Speaker 1>all this is, Yeah, religion a special problem for Hollywood?

741
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Or how do you make sense of all this? Well?

742
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:25.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, I think it's so many, so

743
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:31.360
<v Speaker 2>many complicated strands. I think one of them is that

744
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:37.679
<v Speaker 2>just jeven just culturally ethnically, the scrappy entrepreneurs who built

745
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:43.440
<v Speaker 2>show business bill Hollywood, we're you know, Eastern European Jews.

746
00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:48.239
<v Speaker 2>And they felt and legitimately I think they felt like

747
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:52.480
<v Speaker 2>we better, we better be careful because this is not

748
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.639
<v Speaker 2>a country that loves Jews that much, and we are

749
00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:57.760
<v Speaker 2>trying to do mass entertainment and most of these people

750
00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:00.400
<v Speaker 2>have never met a Jew in this country, and what they.

751
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:01.199
<v Speaker 3>Know of them, they don't like.

752
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:04.039
<v Speaker 2>Right, that's kind of what that's been around. So they

753
00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:05.480
<v Speaker 2>were very careful when they did.

754
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.800
<v Speaker 3>Old Testament and New Testament stories and they and they

755
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:11.800
<v Speaker 3>did them very faithfully.

756
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:15.000
<v Speaker 2>And some of there's are great, you know, the greatest

757
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:18.360
<v Speaker 2>story ever told her And some are great, right, there's

758
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:21.440
<v Speaker 2>great old movies. But as that, so that was one

759
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:23.880
<v Speaker 2>I think strain, which I don't think you can deny.

760
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:26.119
<v Speaker 2>I think that you have this other part of the

761
00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:29.199
<v Speaker 2>idea that the people in in show business who are

762
00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:32.840
<v Speaker 2>successful they kind of deep down know they're weird now

763
00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 2>that like there's something they however they grew up wherever

764
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.679
<v Speaker 2>they grew up, it's weird now they're like they live

765
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:41.960
<v Speaker 2>in a different world. And so all all the people

766
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:45.360
<v Speaker 2>who go to church in America and believe are just

767
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.639
<v Speaker 2>kind of strange to them, and they kind of know it,

768
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:51.119
<v Speaker 2>and they're it's not condescending, it's just an awareness that

769
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:53.159
<v Speaker 2>these are people I can't really speak to because I've

770
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:56.440
<v Speaker 2>just you know, I've got a little person running behind

771
00:37:56.440 --> 00:38:00.599
<v Speaker 2>me handing me tiny bottles of water whenever I want them.

772
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:02.280
<v Speaker 2>There's a great I don't know if you've seen the

773
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:02.599
<v Speaker 2>movie J.

774
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:04.719
<v Speaker 3>Kelly, but in J. Kelly was a really good movie.

775
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:07.800
<v Speaker 2>There's a kind of a reard running joke where J Kelly,

776
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:10.079
<v Speaker 2>so he says, you just you could never be alone,

777
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:13.199
<v Speaker 2>and he goes, I could be alone. And then the

778
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.679
<v Speaker 2>minute he says that, somebody his bodyguard hands that you

779
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:17.559
<v Speaker 2>want to here's a water for me, thank you, and

780
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.960
<v Speaker 2>he gets he gets, you know, and so I think

781
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:20.360
<v Speaker 2>there's that.

782
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:21.800
<v Speaker 3>I also feel like.

783
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:26.239
<v Speaker 2>I kind of feel like we've been running an experiment

784
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:30.719
<v Speaker 2>in America definitely, but probably the world, the Western world

785
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:31.159
<v Speaker 2>in general.

786
00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:34.119
<v Speaker 3>Uh, what would happen? What? What?

787
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:34.000
<v Speaker 1>What?

788
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:35.199
<v Speaker 3>What would happen?

789
00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:38.320
<v Speaker 2>What would a generation look like in America that was

790
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:42.079
<v Speaker 2>raised almost entirely in a secular culture, not just in

791
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:46.440
<v Speaker 2>a culture that repudiates or ignores religion, but our culture

792
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:48.079
<v Speaker 2>that really has no connection to it at all.

793
00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:52.400
<v Speaker 3>So culture that doesn't read the Bible, it.

794
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't know the story, that doesn't even if it's to

795
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:59.679
<v Speaker 2>say it's all superstitious nonsense, doesn't even know isn't atheistic.

796
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:03.199
<v Speaker 2>To be the atheist means you're rejecting something that you

797
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:09.480
<v Speaker 2>looked at. What would that be like to have a

798
00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:11.880
<v Speaker 2>bunch of people who are now sixty I was born

799
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:16.679
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen sixty five, for whom it's not like they

800
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.719
<v Speaker 2>don't believe, or they believed, or they believed and they left,

801
00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:23.719
<v Speaker 2>or they just don't. They just don't have any mooring

802
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:27.880
<v Speaker 2>at all. And and I'm sort of obsessed with that

803
00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:30.360
<v Speaker 2>cohort because I think that cohort is like forty fifty

804
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:33.719
<v Speaker 2>sixty years old, maybe even older, and they have lived

805
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:38.239
<v Speaker 2>enough of a life to have felt things and to

806
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:45.639
<v Speaker 2>have experienced things that faith is. It talks about the

807
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:47.760
<v Speaker 2>faith addresses and I think there are a lot of

808
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:49.719
<v Speaker 2>people my age and a little bit younger who are like, well,

809
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:51.800
<v Speaker 2>what is this all been about?

810
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:55.639
<v Speaker 3>And where do I go to think about this stuff?

811
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:57.920
<v Speaker 2>So, I mean, that's a long win new question, but

812
00:39:57.920 --> 00:39:59.639
<v Speaker 2>a long whin answer to a question. But so I

813
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.840
<v Speaker 2>think that that's the third part, which is that the culture

814
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.519
<v Speaker 2>in general just kind of I mean, if you were

815
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:06.159
<v Speaker 2>going to make a.

816
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:12.079
<v Speaker 3>First of all, the Hebrew Bible is it's it's crazy.

817
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:14.400
<v Speaker 3>It hasn't been made. It's Game of Thrones.

818
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, I mean yeah, and it's the parts of

819
00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:20.679
<v Speaker 2>it that you like. Even the game, even the producer

820
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:22.559
<v Speaker 2>of the Game of Thrones would say, well, that's just

821
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:27.199
<v Speaker 2>too violent. We're not doing that, So I don't. I

822
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:29.400
<v Speaker 2>just think it's a we it is. No longer people

823
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:31.840
<v Speaker 2>were afraid of it. They're afraid of offending you if

824
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:34.440
<v Speaker 2>they bring it up. They're afraid of I think a

825
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:36.440
<v Speaker 2>whole bunch of different things. And they go, so why

826
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.639
<v Speaker 2>if you're a show business you always take the easy

827
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:40.000
<v Speaker 2>way out?

828
00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:42.239
<v Speaker 3>Why why poke the bear?

829
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:45.599
<v Speaker 2>You know, like this just to We'll just talk about

830
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:48.679
<v Speaker 2>something else. And I think the culture helped them do that.

831
00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:51.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with Uh. Well,

832
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:56.320
<v Speaker 1>put it this way. It's it's astounding how many what

833
00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:59.639
<v Speaker 1>used to be household or you know, common cultural expressions

834
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.800
<v Speaker 1>derived the Bible and Shakespeare phrases. We is right, and

835
00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:05.199
<v Speaker 1>to the extent that we've now neglected both the Bible

836
00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:08.079
<v Speaker 1>and Shakespeare. You will bring up some reference and people say,

837
00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:11.000
<v Speaker 1>what what is that? Or some of the Shakespeare phrases

838
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.159
<v Speaker 1>are still commonplace, but people don't know that it comes

839
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:16.320
<v Speaker 1>from Shakespeare, right, So you know, I've long said that

840
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:18.559
<v Speaker 1>you really just need to know three not free authors,

841
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:21.559
<v Speaker 1>exactly three books, Aristotle, the Bible, and Shakespeare, and you'll

842
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:22.519
<v Speaker 1>be fine in life.

843
00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:25.840
<v Speaker 3>Right yeah, I mean, actually that's that's true.

844
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:31.199
<v Speaker 1>Act I think, yeah, yeah, right, well, this has been fine.

845
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.440
<v Speaker 1>I could talk foreverybody. We don't want to attack the

846
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:37.159
<v Speaker 1>patients of our listeners. So one last question. I think,

847
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:39.840
<v Speaker 1>although I should ask anything, I haven't asked you, I

848
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:42.800
<v Speaker 1>should have or something else that you think listeners should

849
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:46.039
<v Speaker 1>know about a theological and spiritual excursion you're making.

850
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:50.599
<v Speaker 3>I think we have we cover all the heresies. You

851
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:52.719
<v Speaker 3>know that that is something that happens.

852
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:54.719
<v Speaker 2>Like you, you know, I'm in a Bible study and

853
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.840
<v Speaker 2>on Tuesday mornings, and I do this other thing called

854
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:03.519
<v Speaker 2>ef M, And there's sometimes people like, wait, can I

855
00:42:03.559 --> 00:42:05.320
<v Speaker 2>am I allowed to say this or that or like

856
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:07.920
<v Speaker 2>and then every now and then it lapse into what

857
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:11.360
<v Speaker 2>would technically be considered a heresy. But I actually feel

858
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:13.880
<v Speaker 2>like at this point heresies are are It's a high

859
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:17.079
<v Speaker 2>class problem to have. It means it means we're talking.

860
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:19.199
<v Speaker 2>It means we're talking about it means it's part of

861
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:19.800
<v Speaker 2>the conversation.

862
00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:22.360
<v Speaker 3>So I say, bring on the heresies.

863
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well we don't kill each other for them anymore

864
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:29.400
<v Speaker 1>as much as we used to, so not as right, right, right, Yeah,

865
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.760
<v Speaker 1>So last question on a completely different subject, but it's

866
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:35.519
<v Speaker 1>on everybody's mind right now. And you seems like you've

867
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.039
<v Speaker 1>known or met everybody in Hollywood. Did you know Rob

868
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.599
<v Speaker 1>Reiner much at all? And I mean, this is such

869
00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:41.639
<v Speaker 1>an awful story, but.

870
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:42.840
<v Speaker 3>It's a terrible story.

871
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:43.079
<v Speaker 4>You know.

872
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:44.559
<v Speaker 3>I didn't. I didn't know him really.

873
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:48.119
<v Speaker 2>I met him a couple of times and lovely, lovely guy.

874
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:51.119
<v Speaker 2>And then there was a period a few years ago,

875
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.199
<v Speaker 2>so I did this thing that I that people do.

876
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:58.760
<v Speaker 2>I think when a friend of theirs dies and he

877
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:00.920
<v Speaker 2>wasn't I'm not saying he's a friend of mine. You

878
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:07.199
<v Speaker 2>go into your email archives and you read your lastic

879
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:12.679
<v Speaker 2>changes and and I remember doing that when PG Orke died,

880
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:15.039
<v Speaker 2>like just having going back and saying, okay, what was.

881
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:15.400
<v Speaker 3>Our you know?

882
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:19.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and there were you know, and so he and I,

883
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:21.599
<v Speaker 2>Rob Ryder and I were like a part of a

884
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:22.920
<v Speaker 2>little group and we were trying.

885
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:24.559
<v Speaker 3>He really wanted to do.

886
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:30.320
<v Speaker 2>A TV comedy that touched on the kind of all

887
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:34.719
<v Speaker 2>in the Family's style, not you know, not a reboot,

888
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:36.760
<v Speaker 2>but like, okay, what did all the family do? It

889
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:38.960
<v Speaker 2>brought all of these things that people are arguing about

890
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:43.639
<v Speaker 2>in the home, and I put them on screen and

891
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:46.280
<v Speaker 2>and he, you know, he's a very thoughtful guy, and

892
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:51.400
<v Speaker 2>he knew that the strength of all the family was

893
00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:55.159
<v Speaker 2>that the hero was Archie Bunker, and the hero is

894
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:57.400
<v Speaker 2>actually Bunker, because he's the one with a job, right,

895
00:43:57.559 --> 00:43:59.719
<v Speaker 2>and who fought in the war and had two jobs right,

896
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:03.079
<v Speaker 2>and was like paying for all the food right, doing everything,

897
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:05.519
<v Speaker 2>and he kind of and I think he wanted to

898
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:07.480
<v Speaker 2>do it right. And so we were talking about it

899
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:09.719
<v Speaker 2>back and forth about what would be like and what

900
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:11.960
<v Speaker 2>what we have to talk about, and you know, he

901
00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:17.440
<v Speaker 2>was extremely he was extremely sensitive to the idea that

902
00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:21.840
<v Speaker 2>there were things that the people who run the networks

903
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.800
<v Speaker 2>and all those of the things that they were afraid

904
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:28.199
<v Speaker 2>of talking about, and there were opinions they just were

905
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:32.079
<v Speaker 2>afraid of, most almost entirely on the right, and that

906
00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:35.239
<v Speaker 2>he just didn't want that. He wanted to make sure

907
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:37.679
<v Speaker 2>that we went forward with this. That I knew that

908
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:40.559
<v Speaker 2>he was he was going to fight for all of

909
00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:44.400
<v Speaker 2>that the full truth of the conversation to unfold, because

910
00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:47.760
<v Speaker 2>that's the only way all in the family, and I

911
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:49.920
<v Speaker 2>think that I admired that. I really admired that. And

912
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:51.760
<v Speaker 2>I know he was a partisan. I mean, you know

913
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:55.840
<v Speaker 2>that's what he was. But man, he made some great

914
00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:58.480
<v Speaker 2>movies and he was in our my exchanges with him.

915
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:00.400
<v Speaker 2>He was a really lovely, thoughtful guy. And I think

916
00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:05.000
<v Speaker 2>real tragedy did. I mean, it's just one of those horrible, horrible,

917
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:07.320
<v Speaker 2>horrible stories.

918
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:09.400
<v Speaker 1>You just you know.

919
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:13.440
<v Speaker 2>I think I made the decision maybe last week or whatever,

920
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:16.320
<v Speaker 2>within two days that you know what I knew.

921
00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:17.719
<v Speaker 3>I know enough about it now. I don't need to

922
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:18.320
<v Speaker 3>know anymore.

923
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't I just skipped by those the stories I'm

924
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:22.719
<v Speaker 2>not I just don't want to know about.

925
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:25.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right. Well, let's not end on a total

926
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:27.039
<v Speaker 1>down note like that, but I have felt like I

927
00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:31.119
<v Speaker 1>had to experience. It's important. It's an important story, I think, Yeah,

928
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:33.840
<v Speaker 1>I think so, and so Instead let me just uh

929
00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:38.840
<v Speaker 1>then send us out saying God bless you, Rob, Merry Christmas,

930
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:41.920
<v Speaker 1>and you too, yeah, happy New Year, and uh well,

931
00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:44.000
<v Speaker 1>I'll have to do this again after you're at the

932
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:45.880
<v Speaker 1>halfway point. We'll have to do this again at the

933
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:47.519
<v Speaker 1>end of year three, and see where you're heading.

934
00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:50.239
<v Speaker 2>Next see see if I'm like, yeah, it's all I realized,

935
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:54.840
<v Speaker 2>it's all crazy. I'm a Hindoo now I'm a practicing Buddhism.

936
00:45:55.239 --> 00:45:58.639
<v Speaker 2>I'll say that that that you know, you're around fussy Anglicans,

937
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:03.159
<v Speaker 2>which is pretty much a redundant I understand. But I

938
00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I have my my you know, we have the big

939
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:07.079
<v Speaker 2>jokes in the in the seven about what your ministry is,

940
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.199
<v Speaker 2>and people go like, I my ministry is, you know,

941
00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:13.840
<v Speaker 2>making sure that people you only use one font in

942
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:17.960
<v Speaker 2>their you know, presentations. And my ministry is to sort

943
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.039
<v Speaker 2>of scrape some of the fussiness off of the Episcopal Church.

944
00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:23.039
<v Speaker 2>And one of them is like they you say Merry

945
00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:24.400
<v Speaker 2>Christmas to a fussy act.

946
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:26.519
<v Speaker 3>Like, oh you mean happy at that because you know

947
00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:29.079
<v Speaker 3>it's not Christmas, Like, oh, give me a break, Merry Christmas.

948
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:31.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna I'm gonna say a Christmas Carol now too,

949
00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:32.400
<v Speaker 2>just to drive you crazy.

950
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:36.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Thanks, we'll see you soon, I hope.

951
00:46:36.719 --> 00:48:09.119
<v Speaker 4>Hey, Merry Christmas.

952
00:47:24.519 --> 00:47:24.559
<v Speaker 1>B