1 00:00:16,399 --> 00:00:19,399 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,960 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior Elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,719 Federalist and your experienced shurpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,719 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:30,719 --> 00:00:35,079 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fbr LST, 6 00:00:35,719 --> 00:00:38,759 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,479 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,679 Our guest today is Orin Cass, chief economist at American Compass. 9 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,000 With election Day one week away, Warren joins us now 10 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:58,280 to talk about the American wake up call americans views 11 00:00:58,399 --> 00:01:01,920 on the American Dream. Warren, thanks so much for being 12 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,840 here with us on this edition of the Federalist radiop. 13 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 14 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:06,719 Speaker 1: Am. 15 00:01:06,799 --> 00:01:08,079 Speaker 2: I a sherpa as well. 16 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: You are a shrpa. Indeed, you are at ATA sherpa, 17 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:15,519 which I think is a much cooler and less offensive 18 00:01:15,599 --> 00:01:16,879 term than data geek. 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: I appreciate that. 20 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: I'll take you, but you crunch the numbers at American Compass, 21 00:01:22,719 --> 00:01:25,879 and really why we wanted to have you on the 22 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,599 show to talk about the different viewpoints on the American Dream. 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:35,680 As we have aspirational campaigns, so to speak. We have 24 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:42,200 campaigns about unburdening ourselves of the past. We have campaigns 25 00:01:42,239 --> 00:01:46,560 of thinking, certainly about the past several years in this 26 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:49,840 country and what that all means. Let's begin here though. 27 00:01:50,359 --> 00:01:54,840 In fall twenty twenty four, American Compass partnered with you 28 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,120 gov to survey six thousand Americans about their values and priorities, 29 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,680 views on what has gone well and poorly in America, 30 00:02:04,879 --> 00:02:09,960 and reactions to various messages and proposals that politicians might offer. 31 00:02:10,879 --> 00:02:14,599 The results reflect a nation fundamentally at odds with the 32 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:21,360 values in rhetoric promoted its own political class. Again, that's 33 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,520 a lot to unpack. But you talk to a lot 34 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,719 of Americans, what's the conflict going on? 35 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think it comes down to us, as you 36 00:02:32,599 --> 00:02:36,360 framed it, this idea of the American dream. And you know, look, 37 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,159 I love the American dream. I don't know anyone who doesn't, 38 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,120 you know, want to say nice things about the American dream. 39 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:44,719 But it seems to me we've gotten to a point 40 00:02:44,759 --> 00:02:48,800 where what that even is, or how important it is, 41 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:52,520 is not understood in the same way by the people 42 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,560 who give speeches about it as it is by the 43 00:02:56,599 --> 00:02:59,919 people who live it. And we see so much folks 44 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:04,960 in our politics, frankly, on both sides of the political spectrum. 45 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:08,800 Historically it was much before the Republicans. Now you see 46 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,840 it in you know, the Kamala Harris opportunity agenda, this 47 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,520 incredible focus on you know, up or mobility and opportunity 48 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,439 and dynamism and anyone can make it. And those are 49 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:25,080 all good things. But what most people actually care about 50 00:03:25,159 --> 00:03:28,879 more is not the thing that can happen to anybody, 51 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,800 but what's the thing that is going to happen to everybody? 52 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,199 You know? What is where is that promise of dignity 53 00:03:36,199 --> 00:03:39,840 and equality and a job that supports a family, And 54 00:03:40,599 --> 00:03:42,919 these things can be in tensing with each other. And 55 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:46,039 you know, what we have seen in many contexts in 56 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,919 this survey really confirms is that the boundless opportunity and 57 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,960 dynamism and so forth that attracts the people who do 58 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,120 move to a big city and go work in politics, 59 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,080 it's just not a good fit with the things that 60 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,759 matter most to your typical American family. 61 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: I think in some respects what you just said should 62 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:12,080 not be surprising. This election season has really hammered that 63 00:04:12,199 --> 00:04:16,959 home that we have in elitist press. In my opinion, 64 00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:20,319 I like to call them the accomplice media or the 65 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:27,240 provd press, pumping out messages about what Americans feel, or 66 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,279 at least what they should feel, and think your findings 67 00:04:31,319 --> 00:04:36,040 offer a disconnect with that narrative or that message that's 68 00:04:36,079 --> 00:04:38,360 been pumped out there by politicians and a lot of 69 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:39,279 members of the media. 70 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's exactly right. You know. I actually became 71 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,800 especially interested in this kind of research back at the 72 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:50,480 end of twenty sixteen, right when Donald Trump first won, 73 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,839 and you would think that people would take away from 74 00:04:54,879 --> 00:04:57,319 that election result, you know, wow, there must be a 75 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:02,879 lot of problems here that that we didn't understand, and instead, 76 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,800 the elite, you know, whether it's economists or commentators or 77 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,480 political consultants, everyone doubled down on the idea that no, no, actually, 78 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:15,720 everything in America is great and therefore if you don't 79 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:18,240 feel that way, you know, you must either be racist 80 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,279 or xenophobic or you know, to not know how great 81 00:05:22,319 --> 00:05:26,759 things are. There was this sort of you know, lecture 82 00:05:26,959 --> 00:05:29,519 like who are you going to believe, you know, me 83 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,839 the expert or your own lion eyes and it's run 84 00:05:33,879 --> 00:05:36,240 now all the way through. We're almost ten years later, 85 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,399 and we've still got people, you know, complaining about vibes 86 00:05:39,519 --> 00:05:42,360 and saying that if Americans say they're not happy with 87 00:05:42,399 --> 00:05:46,519 the economy even though the you know, the GDP data 88 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,959 is good, well then there must be something wrong with 89 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,199 the Americans, when in fact, what people are telling you 90 00:05:53,319 --> 00:05:56,519 is that this is not working for them. The problem 91 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,079 is that the problem is with your data, which doesn't 92 00:05:59,079 --> 00:06:01,920 mean the data is wrong. It means you're not looking 93 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:04,600 at the right things. And it's the experts who have 94 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:05,920 to change, not the people. 95 00:06:06,519 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: And that's a very interesting point. And I think there's 96 00:06:08,959 --> 00:06:11,759 a lot of fatigue out there over the last several 97 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:16,199 years about the experts in this country, and I wanted 98 00:06:16,199 --> 00:06:19,399 to drill down on that, particularly what you're seeing with 99 00:06:19,519 --> 00:06:24,439 this survey, with this study, talking to thousands of Americans 100 00:06:24,439 --> 00:06:27,519 and getting their viewpoints on this, I think there is 101 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:33,439 a fatigue, an expert fatigue, not necessarily as it has 102 00:06:33,519 --> 00:06:39,839 been painted as people rejecting science or rejecting a good data. 103 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,000 I think people are rejecting people who have lied to 104 00:06:44,079 --> 00:06:49,720 them in recent years about some very important things their health, 105 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:56,519 their freedom, their economy, their security. And I want to 106 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,959 ask you this is it's tied into what we were 107 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,399 just talking about. Remember after the twenty sixteen election, where 108 00:07:03,399 --> 00:07:05,759 we had we're just talking about this with the federalist 109 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:10,360 colleagues today that you had Mia Culpas from the Washington 110 00:07:10,399 --> 00:07:14,759 Post of the New York Times Ams Budsman editorial boards. 111 00:07:14,759 --> 00:07:19,040 But boy, we really did not truly gauge America. Maybe 112 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,120 it wasn't a good idea for Hillary Clinton to call 113 00:07:21,199 --> 00:07:26,439 half of Americans deplorables, that they're from a basket of deplorables. 114 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:33,240 But it seems the more they learn, maybe even collectively, 115 00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:36,439 the more we all learn, the less we know, the 116 00:07:36,519 --> 00:07:39,120 less we remember. Because now we're at a point in 117 00:07:39,199 --> 00:07:43,519 this presidential campaign of twenty twenty four where we have 118 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:49,360 Vice President Kamala Harris, the Democrats nominee for president, and 119 00:07:49,519 --> 00:07:55,600 her allies in politics and in the press calling Donald 120 00:07:55,639 --> 00:08:01,240 Trump a fascist and a Nazi. Why why is there 121 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:05,480 such a disconnect from the American people who many don't 122 00:08:05,639 --> 00:08:08,959 see it that way? Some certainly do, but many don't, 123 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,839 And many are more concerned about what you're talking about here, 124 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,720 their version of the American dream, and not all of 125 00:08:15,759 --> 00:08:20,560 the finger pointing, name calling, in all of the nonsense 126 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,279 that's been surrounding this campaign. 127 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: It's a great it's a great question. And I think, 128 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,720 you know, for me, the the immediate reaction when you 129 00:08:30,759 --> 00:08:33,600 when you hear this kind of you know, the deplorables 130 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,120 or the you know, oh this guy's a Nazi or whatever. 131 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,320 I just want to turn around and say, and you're 132 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,360 and you're losing to him. I mean, what what is it? 133 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:44,120 What does it say about you if if you're if 134 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:46,960 you're losing to this guy, you're losing to the Nazi. 135 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: Well put that in perspective at least the way you 136 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:50,519 paint this. 137 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:54,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, And and you know, shouldn't that at the shouldn't 138 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:57,799 that invite a little bit of self reflection? And instead 139 00:08:57,799 --> 00:09:00,759 it just invites this kind of progress, you know, this 140 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,919 projection onto everybody else. Well, if people don't agree with me, 141 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,360 then they're not just wrong. They must be sort of 142 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,120 evil somehow. And the thing that most blows my mind 143 00:09:14,159 --> 00:09:17,039 about this is that, you know, it's we're still the 144 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,759 same country we weren't ten or fifteen years ago, Right 145 00:09:21,799 --> 00:09:24,840 Like the electorate that elected Donald Trump is the same 146 00:09:24,879 --> 00:09:29,919 electorate that had just elected Barack Obama twice. And somehow 147 00:09:30,519 --> 00:09:35,559 we have this class of people who think that everybody 148 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,120 else it sort of gets to be judged by whether 149 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,840 they decide the thing the elites want them to decide. 150 00:09:44,039 --> 00:09:48,480 And I think that, first of all, just as a 151 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,480 matter of good politics, and I don't mean good like popular, 152 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:54,960 but I mean politics the way it should be done. 153 00:09:55,879 --> 00:09:59,320 The first piece is that it has to be responsive. 154 00:10:00,159 --> 00:10:03,240 You have to be meeting people where they are and 155 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:07,320 understanding what matters to them. And you know, for me, 156 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,440 my greatest objective objection to to how the experts have 157 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:15,200 conducted themselves isn't so much that that they've sort of 158 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,200 you know, lied or manipulated as that. I think they're 159 00:10:19,279 --> 00:10:23,399 just a lot of them are oblivious. I mean, and 160 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,360 I always like to pick on economists for this, but 161 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,879 but you have economists that they will say worth rightly. 162 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,679 You know, Look, the point of the economy is consumption. 163 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,840 What we're here to do is maximize how much stuff 164 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,039 you have. And anybody who's not happy with how much 165 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,159 stuff they have, as if that's you know, the the end, 166 00:10:44,399 --> 00:10:48,320 the end goal of life. The economist just thinks, well, 167 00:10:48,919 --> 00:10:51,080 clearly there's something wrong. There can't be something wrong with 168 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:56,639 my model. So it's just I dismiss these people as 169 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,960 somehow wrong. And yet it just last thing I'll say 170 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,279 about this, it's not even how people live their own lives. 171 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,759 Like you go to some of these folks who are saying, well, 172 00:11:08,759 --> 00:11:11,720 we don't understand what's going on in America. You just 173 00:11:11,759 --> 00:11:14,440 ask them to think about what's important in their own lives. 174 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,000 It's not about go walk a mile in someone else's shoes. 175 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,200 Just walk a mile to your own shoes. Ask yourself 176 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,240 what's important to you. It's not how big your TV 177 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:27,039 is and how much cheap stuff you have. It's whether 178 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,120 you live in a stable community, whether you've been able 179 00:11:29,159 --> 00:11:32,080 to form a family, whether you've found work that's meaningful 180 00:11:32,919 --> 00:11:36,600 and productive and that allows you to support your family. 181 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,279 And that's what these experts all know is important to themselves, 182 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:46,200 and yet they can't see past them their noses to 183 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,919 the way that those things aren't working well for everybody else. 184 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: That's what I want to drill into with this study, 185 00:11:54,159 --> 00:11:57,360 as we look at the American dream, how Americans see 186 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,240 it versus how the experts think they're supposed to see 187 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:03,960 it or believe that Americans see it. And I don't 188 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,679 want to let the neocons off the hook on this 189 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,960 as well, this is problematic for them. As we get 190 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,720 into the details of the study, we see only twenty 191 00:12:12,759 --> 00:12:18,480 six percent of Americans, of again the thousands that you interviewed, 192 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:23,960 you surveyed, see free markets that term as a fundamental value, 193 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,799 and even among those who do, I few believe the 194 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:32,080 term should imply a las a fair model of capitalism. 195 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,799 And so you have a disconnect. Some on the right 196 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,840 certainly talking about what the traditional American dream is. But 197 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,799 it's different here, is it not, especially as it relates 198 00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:50,399 to these kinds of policy and political catchphrases that. 199 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 2: We talk about. Yeah, this was one of my favorite 200 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,679 parts of the survey, and it actually came out of 201 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,320 focus group work that we did. It's a great example 202 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,759 of how you kind of need to qualitatively hear from 203 00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:06,200 people one on one, and then you can kind of 204 00:13:06,279 --> 00:13:11,120 go check that against much larger samples in a survey. 205 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,200 Because in the focus groups we would do, you would hear, 206 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,440 especially in you know, if you focus on Republican voters conservatives, 207 00:13:20,039 --> 00:13:23,080 a lot of talk about free markets. Free you know, 208 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,840 obviously we're supposed to be for free markets. No one's 209 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,720 against free markets. But when you actually drilled down and said, okay, 210 00:13:29,759 --> 00:13:32,600 what does that mean? Or when you just listen to 211 00:13:32,639 --> 00:13:36,240 the other things people said about free markets, it became 212 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,480 very clear that that that idea of free market, what 213 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,879 we're all in favor of, doesn't mean this laissez faire 214 00:13:44,519 --> 00:13:47,320 just get the government out of the way, just let 215 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,679 the market do its thing. Whatever is good for corporations 216 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,399 is going to be good for everybody. That's not what 217 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,480 people had in their heads. That's that's how what free 218 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,879 markets meant to them. And so in the survey, we 219 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,360 just tested a few different options. You know, when thinking 220 00:14:02,399 --> 00:14:06,720 about trade, for instance, does free market mean free trade 221 00:14:06,759 --> 00:14:09,039 that anybody should just be able to buy and sell 222 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,840 for anyone else they want around the world, or does 223 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:15,320 free markets actually mean that we're sort of have a 224 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,559 market that protects American values and make sure that we're 225 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,399 not having to do business with and be entwined with 226 00:14:23,759 --> 00:14:26,879 countries that don't share our values, that don't do business 227 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:32,440 the right way. And overwhelmingly, everybody, including Republicans, thinks free 228 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,679 markets means the latter free market. The free market is 229 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,279 the one that's actually protected from China, not the one 230 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,240 that's somehow integrated with China. 231 00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: Very interesting to me because what you've just defined, it 232 00:14:44,679 --> 00:14:49,799 would seem is how Donald Trump approaches the US economy, 233 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,600 how he approaches dealing economically with the rest of the world, 234 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:59,080 versus a lot of the neocons, some of the candidates, 235 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:04,399 of course, who his opponents in the Republican bid for 236 00:15:04,519 --> 00:15:07,519 the or the bid for the Republican nomination. There seems 237 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:13,200 to be a disconnect on how the public really feels 238 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:18,159 about this and the elite, so to speak, are reading this. 239 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,919 And also I think how Donald Trump has correctly read 240 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,639 the American people on free markets and those kinds of 241 00:15:26,679 --> 00:15:27,720 economic values. 242 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's exactly right. And that's why, 243 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,799 you know, whether you're talking about the American dream, whether 244 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,799 you're talking about free markets, it's important to separate the 245 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:48,360 rhetoric and the values from the actual sort of substinctive implications, right, 246 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,360 because you know, free markets is of value, can be 247 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:54,639 can be really important. We love the idea of free 248 00:15:54,759 --> 00:15:57,080 I love the idea of free markets, the idea that 249 00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:01,039 we are going to have a private marketplace where individuals 250 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,399 pursue their own interests as opposed to a place where 251 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,000 government is telling everybody what to do. You know, I 252 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:10,159 think that that's that's the right way to run an economy. 253 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,759 That's also just really important for protecting people's liberty. But 254 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:17,879 at the at the same time, that doesn't mean free 255 00:16:17,879 --> 00:16:22,000 trade with China. It doesn't mean, you know, no regulation 256 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,200 of employers or no protections for workers. And you know, 257 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,519 my favorite example of this is everybody knows Ronald Reagan's 258 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:34,320 famous line, you know, the nine scariest words in the 259 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,120 English language, I'm here from the government. I'm here to help. 260 00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:42,840 Do you know where he delivered that line. It was 261 00:16:42,879 --> 00:16:45,960 at a it was it was at a press conference 262 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,360 announcing unprecedented support to agriculture from the federal government. 263 00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:55,559 Speaker 1: I would not I did not remember that. That is 264 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,320 that's a very very good point. He was talking at 265 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,240 the time of about important what he believed in in 266 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:09,960 accordance with his agenda, important government intervention and regulation, and 267 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,039 trying to make sure that people understood there is a 268 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:18,759 place for the government, but it has it cannot be 269 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,440 ultimately central or overtaking liberties. 270 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, exactly, that's very well put. And I mean, 271 00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:29,559 Rayan to me is such a fascinating figure in all 272 00:17:29,599 --> 00:17:32,039 of this, because you know, I think Rayam was a 273 00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:38,440 fantastic president and also just a fantastic conservative, and he 274 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,920 was a very I mean, he was the great communicator. 275 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:46,759 He spoke aspirationally in ways that aligned with American values, 276 00:17:47,759 --> 00:17:51,319 very connected at a very deep level. At the same time, 277 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,799 he brought a real conservative pravatism to the actual need 278 00:17:56,839 --> 00:18:00,400 to govern. And so whether it was supporting anger culture 279 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,759 at a time when there was a real crisis and 280 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,480 a need for agricultural support, or you know, protecting the 281 00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:11,920 domestic auto industry from Japanese imports and forcing the Japanese 282 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,160 companies to come set up factories here instead, or you know, 283 00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:19,519 even on taxes. I mean, he did this big tax cut. 284 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,119 We don't talk about it as much when when the 285 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,680 tax cut ended up blowing too big a hole in 286 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,160 the budget, he then proceeded to raise taxes five times. 287 00:18:28,759 --> 00:18:32,599 And so I think it's that pairing of a rhetoric 288 00:18:32,599 --> 00:18:35,880 and a way of thinking about government and liberty and 289 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:41,279 our aspirations that connects with the American people, then paired 290 00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:45,160 with the kind of government that's actually going to effectuate 291 00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:48,920 those those things we actually care about, which yes they 292 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:54,440 include free markets, Yes they include opportunity and dynamism, but 293 00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:57,880 they also include an awful lot of other things that 294 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,480 I think conservatives have to focus on as well. 295 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 3: Indeed, the supermarket doesn't lie. The watched aut on Wall 296 00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:10,799 Street podcast with Chris Markowski every day Chris helps unpack 297 00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:13,160 the connection between politics and the economy and how it 298 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,559 affects your wallet. Latest report show more people are changing 299 00:19:16,759 --> 00:19:19,960 where they're buying their groceries, heading to box stores like 300 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,880 Walmart goes to show that food and energy prices have 301 00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:25,319 yet to go down. Whether it's happening in DC or 302 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,279 down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 303 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: Be informed. 304 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,799 Speaker 3: Check out the watch Dot on Wall Street podcast with 305 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:34,240 Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 306 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: Our guest today is Orn Cass, chief economist at American Compass. 307 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,440 With Election Day one week away, Orn's joining us to 308 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,039 talk about the American wake up Call American views on 309 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,319 the American Dream, a survey by American Compass partnering with 310 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,160 you gov surveying surveying six thousand Americans about their values 311 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,960 and priorities and how those values and priorities don't always 312 00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:06,680 connect with the politicians, the policymakers, and the so called 313 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,519 experts when it comes to all of this the American 314 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:14,599 dream is indeed on the line in this election, But 315 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:19,000 there's no homogeneous American dream. I think we all know 316 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,039 that people have different views of what their individual American 317 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:28,440 dream is. Some people truly believe it to be moving 318 00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:32,839 from a lower station to a higher station in life. 319 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,119 People believe it's building their own business and having the 320 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,000 freedom to do so, buying a house. But as you 321 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:45,559 know in this study right now, in these very very 322 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:53,200 insecure times, that the sense of security and stability is 323 00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:56,559 core to a lot of Americans and how they feel 324 00:20:56,599 --> 00:21:00,160 about the American dream. 325 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:04,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's I think. You know, I'm just struck 326 00:21:04,079 --> 00:21:06,240 by even listening to how you describe that, which is 327 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,440 exactly right. It reminds me a little bit of what's 328 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,880 called Maslow's hierarchy, which is Maslow's a I don't know, 329 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,440 was he technically a sociology and an anthropologist something like this, 330 00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:23,599 and he sort of laid out how, you know, for people, 331 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,960 there's like the base level of things you need food, shelter, 332 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,400 and so forth, and then above that is a layer 333 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,480 of more social things like you know, relationships and community 334 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,599 and so forth, and above that is then the things 335 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,000 like self actualization, and you know, finding meaning in the world, 336 00:21:42,039 --> 00:21:46,279 and those are all important, but you can't really focus 337 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,880 on those higher ones until you have the lower ones 338 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,319 taken care of. And I think something that we're seeing 339 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:57,119 in America today is a real erosion of that foundation. 340 00:21:57,599 --> 00:22:02,000 I think it's great to have opportunity and mobility, and 341 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,799 people want that to be available to them, but more 342 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:09,559 important to them what has to come first is the 343 00:22:09,599 --> 00:22:13,440 security and the stability. And the security and stability is 344 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:19,119 also important to making the mobility and opportunity achievable. And 345 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,200 so I think we sort of forgot about that foundation 346 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,279 and just focused so much on these more kind of 347 00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:32,319 aspirational goals that the structure sort of started crumbling a 348 00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:34,920 little bit. And so it's not a matter of only 349 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,880 liking one and not the other. It's a little bit 350 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,680 a matter of sequencing that we have to get that 351 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,960 security and stability right first before we can turn our 352 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,400 attention in a sense to making sure we're we've got 353 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,119 the mobility and opportunity as well. 354 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: Or and you touched upon this before, I want to 355 00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:57,799 expound if you don't mind, but with what you have 356 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:04,039 heard from the two major presidential candidates, where is the 357 00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:10,400 intersection of their agenda items on the economy, on life 358 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,559 in general in America, and how they connect or do 359 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:20,160 not connect with the view of the American dream from Americans. 360 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 2: Well, I think Trump is doing a better job on 361 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,680 this and always has. You know, in a lot of ways, 362 00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:33,960 politics is more about problems than solutions. I mean, people 363 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,200 want to know you have a plan, but at the 364 00:23:36,279 --> 00:23:38,880 end of the day, no one wants to read through 365 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,640 your white papers. What people really want to know in 366 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,160 a lot of cases is okay, who's actually talking about 367 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,359 the problems that matter to me? Who's going to be 368 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,400 focused on the things I want them to be focused on, 369 00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:55,559 And going all the way back to twenty sixteen, I 370 00:23:55,599 --> 00:23:58,160 think that was something that made Trump really unique in 371 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,960 this big field of Republican care candidates who were all 372 00:24:01,079 --> 00:24:04,680 kind of challenging each other for who could do the 373 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,000 best Reagan Morning in America impression. Trump stood up there 374 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,119 and and talked about the things that were really wrong 375 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,160 and getting back to these ideas of you know, protecting 376 00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:22,960 place and work and jobs with dignity, and people being 377 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,039 able to support families, and and conversely a lot of 378 00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:29,160 the ways that that a lot of those things had 379 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,640 really been falling apart for a lot of people. And 380 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,160 I think even you know, going on a decade later, 381 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,279 you're you're still seeing that same thing. You're still seeing 382 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,039 Trump talking about a set of policies that's going to 383 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,799 and and address a particular set of problems that's going 384 00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:53,000 to try to sort of stabilize a lot of things 385 00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:57,039 that feel frankly very out of control in the country. 386 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,440 And then you have on the Democratic side, uh, you know, 387 00:25:01,519 --> 00:25:06,720 in in Biden now Harris, a focus on a set 388 00:25:06,759 --> 00:25:11,519 of problems that I just don't think get to that 389 00:25:11,599 --> 00:25:15,359 same place. I mean, there's to some extent, you know, 390 00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:19,680 just the focus on kind of preserving democracy and so forth, 391 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,920 which has just become this very partisan talking point. But 392 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,279 then on the core kind of you know, economic issues, 393 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,799 for the most part, what what Democrats have have been 394 00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:36,400 offering is, well, here's the set of programs that's just 395 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,920 going to take care of you. Instead it almost takes 396 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,279 for granted, right we were not you know, we're going 397 00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:47,519 to have massive amounts of immigration, We're going to have 398 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,039 student debt piling up, We're going to have you know, 399 00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:55,240 a focus on climate change and actually shutting down a 400 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,799 lot of American energy and industry. But it's okay because 401 00:25:59,799 --> 00:26:02,400 here there's this huge set of programs that's still going 402 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,720 to take care of you so that you you you 403 00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:09,519 can keep on consuming all the stuff that you consume now. 404 00:26:10,319 --> 00:26:13,759 And I think people are looking at going on thirty 405 00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:18,559 or forty years of doing this, just pursuing policies that 406 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,519 erode a lot of our foundations, but saying, don't worry, 407 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:24,960 we'll come back around with new government programs to make 408 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:28,920 up for it. And there's for a lot of people 409 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,960 saying that that actually doesn't meet our needs at all. 410 00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:36,880 We are much more interested in shoring up those foundations. 411 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,839 Speaker 1: Well, it is caveat m tour, isn't it. There's buyers 412 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:47,160 remorse in that buyer's beware. Because this is an interesting election, 413 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,920 not unprecedented for those who love history. We know of 414 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,519 a president by the name of Grover Cleveland who was 415 00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:58,880 elected to two non consecutive terms, the only president in 416 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,920 the United States history to accomplished that feat. Donald Trump 417 00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:08,599 may indeed be the second. And what is so interesting 418 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,440 about this, as it was in the latter portions of 419 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,920 the eighteen hundreds, is that Americans got to see what 420 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:22,079 it would be like without Donald Trump and a lot 421 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,480 of Americans, as we've seen through the polling, I would 422 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,759 imagine you have uncovered that as well, not real happy 423 00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:34,680 about what was delivered, the promises that were made in 424 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,680 twenty twenty, in early twenty twenty one, and the America 425 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,000 that we now face in twenty twenty four. How much 426 00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:47,599 of that buyer's remorse is playing into this election and 427 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,799 what you've determined through your survey. 428 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,559 Speaker 2: Well, I think the place that we really see that 429 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,079 coming through is in making sense of kind of what 430 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,680 are the set of ishe choose that has been in 431 00:28:01,759 --> 00:28:05,799 focus over the past three or four years, and to 432 00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:09,799 whom does that appeal or not? You know, it's interesting 433 00:28:09,839 --> 00:28:13,039 we actually, in a prior survey, had tried to make 434 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,559 sense of, in particular why Joe Biden was so unpopular. 435 00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:20,640 Even though a lot of the kind of basic economic 436 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,240 data looked fine, I mean not when inflation was high, 437 00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:28,079 but sort of as inflation had come back down, it 438 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,720 was clear that generally speaking, sort of you know, moderate 439 00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:37,880 swing voters, working class voters were not at all satisfied 440 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:44,359 with how Biden Harris were leading. And what we found 441 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,000 was ofpecially interesting is if you looked at the set 442 00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:50,279 of fights that they had chosen to pick, the places 443 00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:53,880 where you were really getting a strong contrast with Republicans. 444 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,039 It was on a series of issues like immigration, like 445 00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:02,200 climate change, like student debt, like a lot of the 446 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:10,240 sort of you know, race related debates, where the the 447 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,640 fights that were being picked and the positions that that 448 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:19,240 Biden Harris were picking were just deeply, deeply unpopular. They 449 00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:24,480 were they were not they were not what people wanted 450 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,839 to be focused on. And I think that's something you 451 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,759 see coming through now. It's you know, it's especially interesting. 452 00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:36,799 We and will release some more survey data later this 453 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,680 week on this. We we tried zooming in particularly on 454 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,039 one group of swing voters, which are these you know, young, younger, 455 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,200 non white men who you you see this panic from 456 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,119 the from the Harris campaign that that that they're not 457 00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:59,640 winning these these voters by massive margins like Democrats historically 458 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,359 have of. You know, you see Barack Obama out there 459 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,319 kind of lecturing these men that you know, he thinks 460 00:30:05,359 --> 00:30:07,960 maybe they're not supporting Harris because she's a woman, and 461 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,079 that's not acceptable. 462 00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:11,559 Speaker 1: But Dora, do you do you really see a desperation there? 463 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,200 I mean, I think Tim Walls playing Xbox with of 464 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,920 Alexandria Cassio Cortez. I think that's just something he does 465 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,559 on a regular basis from the state House in Minnesota. 466 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:24,279 Don't you think. 467 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: Maybe he's I mean, he certainly seemed very good at it. 468 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,599 He seemed like a real natural. But between oh. 469 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: Sure, playing Madden Football with a nothing nothing score, it. 470 00:30:33,559 --> 00:30:37,119 Speaker 2: Happen, well, you know, when you're out, when you're out hunting, 471 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,640 as much as as government bult is, maybe there's not 472 00:30:39,839 --> 00:30:45,240 time for Madden, certainly, But the I mean, you know, 473 00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:49,000 these are sort of two sides of the same coin. 474 00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:53,559 On one hand, the sort of absurd lecturing, it goes 475 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:55,519 back to what we were talking about earlier, where if 476 00:30:55,839 --> 00:30:58,599 you're not on their side, it's like, like, what's wrong 477 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,519 with you? It can't possibly be that there is something 478 00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:04,240 wrong with their side. And then the flip side, being 479 00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:09,319 the ham handed attempts to actually appeal to these voters, 480 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,279 speaks to just how bad the Democratic Party and especially 481 00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:17,400 the kind of Harris Waltz wing of the Democratic Party 482 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,359 has at doing this. And the survey data I think 483 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,319 actually really helpfully backs this up and gives some some 484 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,799 substance to what's going on here, because what you find 485 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,599 is that you know, you young non white men in particular, 486 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,880 they're totally uninterested in these arguments about you know, privilege. 487 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:43,599 For instance, they actually look more like the white working 488 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,720 class in how they view that sort of argument. They 489 00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:51,279 are not persuaded that climate changes is a key problem. 490 00:31:51,319 --> 00:31:54,480 In fact, they are much more like the white working 491 00:31:54,519 --> 00:31:58,440 class in thinking we should be looseningk environmental regulations to 492 00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:04,240 promote into street and you know, they are young non 493 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,119 white men. Very interesting, the idea of saying we shouldn't 494 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,680 be doing federal student dead at all, we should we 495 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,599 should tell universities to do this themselves if they want, 496 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:18,160 and so on, all these different types of issues on 497 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,279 everifying immigration enforcement, on kind of the basic things that 498 00:32:23,359 --> 00:32:26,079 make you proud to be an American. What you see 499 00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:29,000 are these groups of voters that Democrats have just taken 500 00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:33,519 for granted. Of course, we're just you know, they're minorities. 501 00:32:33,559 --> 00:32:36,440 They are going to vote Democrat by huge margins. But 502 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,680 what they're offering is not does not speak to the 503 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,799 problems and values of those voters, and those voters are 504 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:47,160 looking elsewhere. And I think that explains a lot of 505 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,359 the kind of ongoing it's called realignment in terms of 506 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,839 who is in which party, and it explains why the 507 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,400 election is as close as it is. 508 00:32:57,559 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: Indeed, I mean, we are seeing some traditional liberal Democrat 509 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:10,640 core constituencies changing, moving, and moving in some cases by 510 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,640 very significant amounts, enough certainly to determine the outcome of 511 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:20,079 an election. The Hispanic vote, the Black vote, all of 512 00:33:20,119 --> 00:33:24,519 those areas that Joe Biden and Barack Obama could count 513 00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:30,119 on without really lifting a finger at all. That's not 514 00:33:30,559 --> 00:33:33,720 those constituencies are not to be assured in this election, 515 00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:39,000 as we've seen this your your polling. Of course, we 516 00:33:39,319 --> 00:33:41,960 talk about this portion of it, but as you as 517 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,400 you alluded to, you're far from done on this front. Yeah. 518 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,119 Speaker 2: I think one of the one of the really interesting 519 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,759 things about doing this kind of survey work and asking 520 00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:56,880 these kinds of questions is you know, you actually learn 521 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,319 a lot, right, Like so much polling out there, either 522 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,319 just horse race polling, Okay, who's winning, let's you know, 523 00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:05,359 we put it out there and get some clicks, but 524 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,920 it's just guessing at what's going to happen in an election, 525 00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:14,559 or it's kind of issue polling where you basically, for 526 00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:17,400 most part, people try to word question certain ways to 527 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,360 get certain answers so they can say, you know, my 528 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,840 policy is more popular, their policy is less popular. We 529 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,480 really see this more as as research as actually you know, 530 00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:32,199 trying to think about the different kinds of trade offs 531 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,079 and values that are intention in America and just present 532 00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:40,639 them to people and see what they actually say. And 533 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,480 all of these really interesting things keep popping up. Whether 534 00:34:44,519 --> 00:34:46,880 it's as we've been talking about, what does the American 535 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,440 dream actually mean? What do free markets actually mean? How 536 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,480 do these different groups of voters think about the kinds 537 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,159 of issues that everybody's fighting over. You know, another really 538 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:03,280 interesting one is just around liberty generally, because you know, 539 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,880 as with free markets, liberty is one of these topic. 540 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,920 Nobody's against liberty, right, but what liberty means and in 541 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:17,920 what situations you see people saying, yes, liberty is the 542 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,320 priority or yeah, you know, on the other hand, yes 543 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,039 liberty is good. But I realized there's a trade off 544 00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:27,440 here when it comes to you know, strong families, or 545 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,639 when it comes to being told actually, no, you can't 546 00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:34,920 buy that from China. Those are the kinds of places 547 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,800 where I think understanding what the American people care about 548 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,599 is is so important, and where at the end of 549 00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:47,199 the day. They are inherently right, right, You can't. There's 550 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,679 no expert who can tell us what we should think 551 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,599 about a trade off like that. It comes down to 552 00:35:55,519 --> 00:35:57,880 what trade offs the American people want to make, and 553 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,599 ideally we would have leaders and politicians who care about 554 00:36:03,639 --> 00:36:06,599 that and understand it and who want to be responsive 555 00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:06,960 to it. 556 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,079 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me these words. Of course, we talk 557 00:36:11,119 --> 00:36:16,400 about free markets and free people and liberty. And you know, 558 00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:20,679 there's an old Bob Dylan line that comes to me, 559 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,840 of course when I think about these things, and that's 560 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,559 really about the interpretation of them, how we interpret them. 561 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,000 And we have seen in this country particularly well really 562 00:36:34,039 --> 00:36:37,760 over its history, but in particular over the last half 563 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:44,119 century plus, the left doing an excellent job of commandeering 564 00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:48,480 the language, of controlling the language, of defining the language. 565 00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:54,800 And their version of liberty is not, as a conservative American, 566 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,639 not my version of liberty. And I think that was 567 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,960 certainly present and known to me and to I believe 568 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,960 anyone with eyes in the COVID era what liberty is, 569 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,159 what government's function truly is, and what it isn't. And 570 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:17,800 I think that leads me to my final question with 571 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,639 what you have been asking Americans about a central core idea, 572 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,159 the American dream. How does that How might that play 573 00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:34,639 out post election when a portion of the American people 574 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,639 we'll have to deal with the fact that their candidate 575 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,159 is not going to be president of the United States. 576 00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:50,079 This turns into a darker chapter. Will we see with 577 00:37:50,199 --> 00:37:55,639 all of the rhetoric about, for instance, Donald Trump being 578 00:37:55,679 --> 00:37:59,360 a fascist from the left? Should Donald Trump win this 579 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,480 election a week from today, do you see based on 580 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:10,079 your research, that version or idea of the left's American 581 00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:15,880 dream becoming rioting because they feel like their version of 582 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,000 the American dream is in peril, rioting and violence. 583 00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: I should say, well, I certainly hope not. It's it's 584 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,800 hard to predict. I think certainly you know what reaction 585 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,119 you're going to get, especially because it's it is a 586 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:39,320 very small number of agitators that can be responsible for 587 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,679 most of it. I mean, you know, among the questions 588 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,239 we asked on the survey also were ones about this 589 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,239 political climate. You know, do you feel this is really 590 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:54,000 an existential moment? You know, do you think these issues 591 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,159 are ones that you know, we should be turning off, 592 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,599 turning the temperature up, or turning the temperature down, and 593 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:02,280 it's not like we're in a country where, you know, 594 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,800 vast majorities of people want to take to the streets, 595 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,360 but it only takes a very very small number of 596 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,880 people who either for irrational reasons or very self interested reasons. 597 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,719 I think this is a good idea to cause a 598 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,400 lot of cause a lot of problems. Obviously, the thing 599 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,599 that I would take away from it, and it actually 600 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,639 connects to a point you made earlier, which I think 601 00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:35,360 is really important, about the fact that people do have 602 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,480 such different concepts of the American dream, and you know, 603 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,360 do have very different values. I mean, for our purposes 604 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,920 in the survey, we're always focusing on, okay, well what 605 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,920 does the majority think about you know this or that? 606 00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:52,360 But it's not there are no questions we asked where 607 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,559 you even got eighty percent on one side and only 608 00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:58,760 twenty on the other, right, let alone one hundred on 609 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,280 one side and nobody on the other. People in a 610 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:08,320 country like ours are always going to have different priorities 611 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,880 and values, and you hope that there's a shared set 612 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,159 of values that unite us as a country. But part 613 00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:17,400 of that liberty that we care about, part of the 614 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,320 secret sauce that it made America is so successful is 615 00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:26,039 embracing what we call pluralism, is embracing the idea that 616 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,199 people with different values should be able to live side 617 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,320 by side. And so, you know, one thing I hope 618 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,760 that this kind of research helps with is making sure 619 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,679 that people recognize whatever their own values and priorities are, 620 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,639 and however dearly and centrally they hold them, that's not 621 00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:48,480 going to be the same as everybody else's and they're 622 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,679 going to be other people who feel just as strongly 623 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,400 the other way. And so wherever possible, it seems to me, 624 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,599 we have to be looking for, you know, ways to 625 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,519 ways to govern the country, ways to do our politics 626 00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:05,960 that respect that. And instead of assuming that one person 627 00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:09,559 has the answer that's going to work for everybody, aim 628 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,840 aim to build a system where people can pursue their aspirations, 629 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,320 whatever those might be. 630 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,079 Speaker 1: Indeed, I hope you are correct. I hope that the 631 00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:24,599 values of pluralism remain steadfast and I remain at the 632 00:41:24,639 --> 00:41:29,400 core of American values in this country. I just am 633 00:41:29,559 --> 00:41:35,199 very concerned that the bumper sticker coexist is exactly that, 634 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,599 nothing more than a bumper sticker. These days, in a 635 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,559 very very divided country. It is a fascinating study. It 636 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,840 involves a lot of Americans and their views, not just 637 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:52,119 what politicians and policymakers and elites are deciding, what their 638 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:57,800 views are. The study from American Compass along with you Gov, 639 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,159 there's a survey of six thousand Americas on what their 640 00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:06,800 priorities are, what really truly is important to the average 641 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:12,000 American in this election, in this environment and beyond. I 642 00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:15,679 think it's fascinating and I think you'll very much enjoy 643 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,639 the read. You can find it all where or in 644 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,719 let's note that before we close. 645 00:42:21,639 --> 00:42:25,039 Speaker 2: You can find it all at Americancompass dot org. And 646 00:42:25,079 --> 00:42:29,039 you can find me tweeting about it incessantly or an 647 00:42:29,159 --> 00:42:33,360 underscore casts. And finally, we have a really great substack 648 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,840 that dives into exactly this stuff. It's called Understanding America 649 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,960 and it's at Understanding America dot co. 650 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,760 Speaker 1: Perfect fascinating conversation. Very much appreciate your time. 651 00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:47,679 Speaker 2: Oh this was terrific. Thank you so much. 652 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,039 Speaker 1: You've been thanks to my guest today or in cast, 653 00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:53,719 chief economist at American Compass, you've been listening to another 654 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,639 edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior 655 00:42:56,679 --> 00:42:59,960 correspondent at the federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 656 00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:14,800 Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray. 657 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:17,199 Speaker 2: Yeah.