Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Kyle Foffy from Cedar Park, Texas, and I golf
Speaker 2: at Twin Creeks Country Club.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Golf Smarter. Hi.
Speaker 1: This is Phil Calvert from Coming, Georgia. I play It
Speaker 1: Bears Best in Siwani. This is Golf Smart number oneenty
Speaker 1: twenty one.
Speaker 2: The issue that we need to deal with is we've
Speaker 2: got to eradicate golf intimidation. It's okay to duffer shop,
Speaker 2: it's okay to not strip at two hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: yard drive. We don't really care if the golf balls
Speaker 2: are jacked or not jack. It's not going to make
Speaker 2: any difference to my game. I don't know if I
Speaker 2: need a new driver every year to pick up the
Speaker 2: extra ten yards for the golf that I want to play.
Speaker 2: Because golf is happening everywhere. It's happened at the office,
Speaker 2: it's happening outside, it's happening with your kids, it's happening
Speaker 2: with your grandparents.
Speaker 3: Everybody is playing golf.
Speaker 2: And even what's more interesting, couples golf tournaments, formerly known
Speaker 2: as a divorce open, are now the rage.
Speaker 3: More people want to play with their spouse.
Speaker 2: That was always a top It's an event because of
Speaker 2: some of the tension.
Speaker 3: Now people love it. They want to play nine and
Speaker 3: wine and dying.
Speaker 2: And that's where we're at with golf as we understand
Speaker 2: that you don't play golf to get away from your family.
Speaker 3: You can play golf to be with your family.
Speaker 1: Not about golf, the life changing joy of playing the game.
Speaker 1: With the author Mike Berlin, this is Golf Smarter, sharing stories,
Speaker 1: tips and insights from great golf minds to help you
Speaker 1: lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host,
Speaker 1: Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast.
Speaker 3: Mike, Hey, Freg welcome back.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Yeah, thank you. So he's referring to the
Speaker 1: fact that I've been traveling a lot, but I'm here
Speaker 1: now and getting to have more conversations for the podcast,
Speaker 1: which I love doing. And this one just based on
Speaker 1: our few minutes of introduction to one another. This is
Speaker 1: going to be lively.
Speaker 2: We have a lot of sep We've had a common journey,
Speaker 2: so I'm glad to go through it with you.
Speaker 1: Explain the common journey part.
Speaker 2: I think we both came in the golf a little
Speaker 2: bit later. I didn't grow up with golf. It came
Speaker 2: to me when I was in my twenties, and it
Speaker 2: really surprised me because I didn't think golf.
Speaker 3: Was for me.
Speaker 1: And what was the moment that you went, oh, this
Speaker 1: is for me.
Speaker 2: I was on a mandatory vacation doing my first job.
Speaker 2: I had gotten some irritable ball syndrome and my boss said, hey,
Speaker 2: you need to take a vacation. And I went down
Speaker 2: to Santabal Island in Florida with my mother and my stepfather.
Speaker 2: My stepfather was an adamant golfer. My father had never
Speaker 2: golfed in his whole life. And he said, well, let's
Speaker 2: go to the driving range. And I thought this is
Speaker 2: going to be kind of boring. I don't want to
Speaker 2: watch him hit golf balls, but he said, come anyway.
Speaker 2: And then after he hit a few balls, he said,
Speaker 2: why don't you try it? And he had this driver
Speaker 2: called the Big Whale. And do you remember the big Wheel?
Speaker 2: It was by Wilson Whale. La, I have it now
Speaker 2: because I bogged on eBay And if the big wheel
Speaker 2: is not big at all compared to the big berth
Speaker 2: end some of these other ones that are out there.
Speaker 2: But he said, why don't you hit it? And I
Speaker 2: got up. I cheat the ball up and I hit
Speaker 2: it and in my mind that ball went three hundred
Speaker 2: yards straight in the.
Speaker 3: Air and I was harked.
Speaker 2: Looking back, it probably went one hundred and twenty yards
Speaker 2: and sliced, but in my mind it was the biggest
Speaker 2: driverver right down.
Speaker 3: And I was hooked on golf.
Speaker 2: And the rest of the trip I took lessons, I
Speaker 2: started to play, and I was hooked on golf.
Speaker 3: And this was nineteen this was nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1: Okay, perfect. And that's what it'll do to you. I mean,
Speaker 1: it just takes if you're not a golfer or you're
Speaker 1: new to golf, you know, and if you've been playing
Speaker 1: most of your life, you know, it takes one swing
Speaker 1: with contact and you see the ball in the air
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, this is awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the dope rushes to your head and then it's
Speaker 2: you know, I as a as a researcher, I've looked
Speaker 2: into it. There's a dopamine rush that comes when you
Speaker 2: hit the ball in the air. There's a dopamine rush
Speaker 2: when you sink a pot. And it doesn't matter if
Speaker 2: it's a twelve footer or a one footer. That little
Speaker 2: noise when it goes down is dopamine rush, and you
Speaker 2: live for it. That's why I tell people, if you're
Speaker 2: having trouble golfing, go putt for twenty minutes. Just go
Speaker 2: feel success or the ball going into the cup, and
Speaker 2: then go back to the range or go play golf
Speaker 2: and it will change your mind.
Speaker 3: Your chemistry is different. You've had success.
Speaker 2: Sometimes hitting seven irons for an hour can be a
Speaker 2: very frustrating experience.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I frequently get people going, hey, I'm I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to come back into golf now that my
Speaker 1: kids are getting a little bit older, I've had to
Speaker 1: take a break from it. How do I get my
Speaker 1: kid into golf? And I'll say, take them to the
Speaker 1: putting green, give them, give them three foot putts that
Speaker 1: they can figure out that they can do. Hitting a
Speaker 1: golf ball's hard. Putting is easy, and if they get
Speaker 1: good at putting, the game's going to be easy for them.
Speaker 2: Hey, Fred, I've worked on my putting and taking five
Speaker 2: strokes off all on eliminating three putts yep. And so
Speaker 2: I mean for all of us, whether we're kids or
Speaker 2: whether we're adults, getting your being a confident putter can
Speaker 2: just make the day so much better.
Speaker 1: Well, let me blow your mind for a minute and
Speaker 1: see if you're familiar with this. A couple episodes ago
Speaker 1: we had Eric Alpenfels, who is the head golf instructor
Speaker 1: at Pinehurst, has been for decades, and well, he wrote
Speaker 1: a book called Instinct Putting, and his whole point is
Speaker 1: looking at the hole, not at the ball when you're.
Speaker 2: Putting nice, which you can easily do, right, it's not
Speaker 2: hard once you get used to it.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a commitment and I love that. Right, you've
Speaker 1: got to trust it exactly. But think about this. You
Speaker 1: ever play corn hole?
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, sure?
Speaker 1: What do you looking at?
Speaker 3: You look at the hole? Man?
Speaker 1: Exactly? You ever shoot a basket?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, right? You ever shoot a basket?
Speaker 3: Look at hoot?
Speaker 1: Right? You ever hit a baseball?
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: You're looking at the ball. You don't look at And
Speaker 1: so what happens when you're putting with instinct, With most putting,
Speaker 1: you look at the hole, you look at the ball,
Speaker 1: You look at the hole, you look at the ball.
Speaker 1: You stay at the ball. You stay at the ball,
Speaker 1: You stay at the ball, and you forget where the
Speaker 1: hole is. But you take a putt right and you
Speaker 1: come up short and you're like, how did that happen? Well,
Speaker 1: you you're not connected to it. But when you look,
Speaker 1: even on short puts especially, but I've been using on
Speaker 1: short and long putts and having great success with my
Speaker 1: distance control and holding out long putts, including holding out
Speaker 1: ten footers regularly.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: By looking at a very specific spot where I wanted
Speaker 1: to go, you know, and and it works so well.
Speaker 1: When I played Riviera. We were talking about I played
Speaker 1: Riviera first the first hole, guy, I've got like a
Speaker 1: thirty foot putt, and the caddies like, hit it right here,
Speaker 1: and I was looking at that spot the whole time
Speaker 1: and it went in. We don't won't.
Speaker 2: But when we played courses that we haven't played before
Speaker 2: and we don't quite know the contours and we don't
Speaker 2: know the speed, you got to trust the spot because
Speaker 2: you know. And so if that gives you that confidence.
Speaker 2: If I don't do my putting routine, which I do
Speaker 2: in a point, but if I don't do the putting routine,
Speaker 2: I miss every time and I don't even know why
Speaker 2: I do. But I've got to go through the routine
Speaker 2: to know the distance, to know the spot, and then
Speaker 2: the commitment comes, and without the commitment, I'm just I'm
Speaker 2: just hacking it.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm not I'm not in it. I'm not committed
Speaker 3: right right.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing I mean, We've talked to so
Speaker 1: many instructors on the show. It's all about your preshot routine, consistency, right,
Speaker 1: doing it over and over, and just being comfortable with it,
Speaker 1: and including being comfortable with the dog barking because she
Speaker 1: wants to come in. Okay, good, she's driving me nuts,
Speaker 1: all right anyways.
Speaker 2: But when you play with a partner, if you're a
Speaker 2: good part of somehow your partner calms down, you know,
Speaker 2: like somebody somebody you're with. I noticed that spending time
Speaker 2: on the green can really annoy the other golfers in
Speaker 2: the foursome, can annoy your partner like they want to
Speaker 2: play kind of quickly, and a slow, slow golf on
Speaker 2: the green is actually emerging as one of the biggest
Speaker 2: hang ups that golfers are having. Like you've got to
Speaker 2: be sort of quick and methodical, but don't be slow.
Speaker 2: It's just as bad as being slow in the fairway now, right,
Speaker 2: I maybe think they should put a shock clock on
Speaker 2: a pup.
Speaker 1: Talk you never watch TGL.
Speaker 3: Finally they have it.
Speaker 1: I love the shot clock.
Speaker 3: You're making bitter decisions. I don't think so, No, just
Speaker 3: do it.
Speaker 1: And I know I'm very deliberate about my preshot routine
Speaker 1: on the green and in my shot and I have
Speaker 1: a feeling that there's people that are like, come on, Fred,
Speaker 1: just if you make it, if you ever watch it
Speaker 1: on TV, and they take a whole lot more time
Speaker 1: than I do. Relax.
Speaker 2: As long as you're three party, nobody cares. Yeah, right, exactly,
Speaker 2: it's a three part that takes a long.
Speaker 1: Time, right, especially when you go through that routine again.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 1: You know we're here because you wrote a book. It's
Speaker 1: called not about Golf, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the biggest mistrack. Not about golf.
Speaker 2: All about golf, but it's not the golf that most
Speaker 2: people think about. Most people think about golf as the
Speaker 2: tips and tricks, how to get a lower score, how
Speaker 2: to improve your game, how to get some distance. I
Speaker 2: don't think that that really matters for the golf I play.
Speaker 2: For the golf I played. How to have a more
Speaker 2: fun time with your friends, how to find more fulfillment
Speaker 2: on the golf course, how to build a better network.
Speaker 2: And there's you can't take a lesson on that you
Speaker 2: talked about your son learning etiquette on the golf course.
Speaker 2: What a magical lesson for him to learn early in life.
Speaker 2: A few places to have behaviors that will lead to
Speaker 2: a more enjoyable experience by everybody who's playing with them.
Speaker 2: And I think for social golf and for golf networking,
Speaker 2: you can see into the soul of the person you're
Speaker 2: playing with.
Speaker 3: By the fourteenth hole.
Speaker 2: You know if they're a good person, an honest person,
Speaker 2: a caring person, or a person who will a generous
Speaker 2: person will help you look for their ball, a person
Speaker 2: who can deal with frustrating situations, who will celebrate your
Speaker 2: good shots. And for me, those are the people who
Speaker 2: I want to be with. And if I blased somebody
Speaker 2: who I see can't control their anger, or who gets
Speaker 2: frustrated easily, or who'll get or who doesn't want to
Speaker 2: help me look for a lost ball, are these people
Speaker 2: that I really want in my life in other areas?
Speaker 3: And most of the time the answer is no, I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 2: I'm not looking for the most competitive games. I'm not
Speaker 2: looking to destroy my opponents. I'm looking to have friends
Speaker 2: and colleagues and people who I enjoy spending time with.
Speaker 2: Fred I spend If I spend four hours golfing with someone,
Speaker 2: that's probably the biggest time commitment I'm going to make
Speaker 2: that day, and so I want to enjoy it.
Speaker 1: There's no question that golf exposes character. Yeah, like you
Speaker 1: were just talking about how how you know doing it?
Speaker 1: I did an episode once talking about doing business on
Speaker 1: the golf course and what the person was explaining this
Speaker 1: woman was great and it's always stayed with me, is
Speaker 1: that when you're going out to play golf with somebody
Speaker 1: who you may do business with, whether be an lawyer, employee,
Speaker 1: or a client customer, whatever it is, you don't do
Speaker 1: business during the round. What you do is you learn
Speaker 1: if you want to do business with that person while
Speaker 1: watching them play golf, what is their temperament, like, what
Speaker 1: is their anger level, what is you know, what gets
Speaker 1: them going? And then if you decide that yes, you
Speaker 1: do want to play golf, you do want to do
Speaker 1: business with them, then you do that in the nineteenth fold,
Speaker 1: you go to the bar and then you start talking
Speaker 1: about it to your thoughts.
Speaker 3: It's the ultimate character referrals.
Speaker 2: But you you're finding out they're honest, and that means
Speaker 2: are they calling their true score?
Speaker 3: Are they committed? Are they you know, do they have
Speaker 3: this stick to it? Noess?
Speaker 2: Can they deal with adversity? All of those things? Are
Speaker 2: they going to rip you off? Are they fairer? Those
Speaker 2: are all the things that you want to know, and
Speaker 2: you can't find out in a phone call, like oftentimes,
Speaker 2: you have to do business to find out if you
Speaker 2: want to keep doing business well on the golf course.
Speaker 2: If it doesn't go well on the golf course, is
Speaker 2: not going to go well in the business deal. So no,
Speaker 2: I've never negotiated a single business term or completed a
Speaker 2: deal on the golf course. Have I made relationships where
Speaker 2: people trust me and I trust them and I want
Speaker 2: to spend more time with them.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Have we had conversation that proves.
Speaker 2: Because I was a political and brand consultant, where I
Speaker 2: had something interesting to say or they had a problem
Speaker 2: that I can help.
Speaker 3: Them with, for sure.
Speaker 2: But most of the time we're you know, we're chit
Speaker 2: chatting about life, and then we talk about this shot,
Speaker 2: and then we're chitchatting about something else and then we
Speaker 2: say great pot. So it's always golf sprinkled in conversation.
Speaker 2: And what I like about golf is golf is the
Speaker 2: natural chit chat. When you run out of chitchat great drive,
Speaker 2: you can talk about top break. Oh you lost that ball.
Speaker 2: That's going to be expensive hole because you just put
Speaker 2: your pro v one in the world water and you
Speaker 2: know what, you have another one that's exactly or I
Speaker 2: think the ultimate thing is I love this will of
Speaker 2: somebody finding a golf ball, Like I just I love
Speaker 2: when they delight in finding a new gol and it
Speaker 2: put they put it in their back and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm really happy for you found a new golf ball.
Speaker 3: St people to light in that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh absolutely absolutely. So do you play for money?
Speaker 1: Do you are you gambler on the golf course or I.
Speaker 2: Mean, I mean my biggest bet are two, two, four, five, five, ten,
Speaker 2: Those are the nassaus that that's my you know, and
Speaker 2: if I splurge, it's you know, dollar skins. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: that's that's what I was big as a catch. I
Speaker 2: don't need to bet money in golf. That doesn't it
Speaker 2: doesn't get me more engaged or energize.
Speaker 3: It just gets me nervous.
Speaker 1: The exact same way. It's like part of the problem
Speaker 1: with my son. Even when we went to top golf,
Speaker 1: He's like, all right, bucks on this. I'm like, come on, man,
Speaker 1: just let's hit the ball. I can't do it unless
Speaker 1: I have skin in the games, like.
Speaker 3: Because he can't.
Speaker 2: He didn't play with his dad enough skin in the game,
Speaker 2: like I mean, either rooting for his dad or rooting
Speaker 2: against his dad would be. My son and I used
Speaker 2: to play twenty dollars. I think we played twenty dollars
Speaker 2: skinned until maybe he was fourteen, because he needed money
Speaker 2: and he could always beat me, so it was I
Speaker 2: always knew it was a good way to give him
Speaker 2: some money, spend some time with him, keep him engaged.
Speaker 2: And then I think somewhere around when he graduated high
Speaker 2: schools like, dad, we don't need to play for money anymore.
Speaker 2: I just want to be out here with you.
Speaker 3: And I thought that was very sweet.
Speaker 2: And then he asked for a couple hundred bucks afterwards
Speaker 2: for some you know, with him spending money.
Speaker 3: But he didn't have to win it off me.
Speaker 1: Right we were, my son and I were playing. Once
Speaker 1: he goes I have fifty bucks, I'm like five, because
Speaker 1: no fifty. I said, do you need fifty bucks. If
Speaker 1: you need fifty bucks, I'm happy to give it. Right,
Speaker 1: don't torment me, don't.
Speaker 3: Humiliate me, right, don't don't make me.
Speaker 1: You know, he can't beat me.
Speaker 3: He can't beat you.
Speaker 1: No, he cannot beat me. But he can. But he
Speaker 1: gets into my head better than anybody. And one time
Speaker 1: we were going out and I'm like, okay to no,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to get into his head. I know
Speaker 1: I can beat him. I'm just going to get into
Speaker 1: his head. And what happens. He has one of the
Speaker 1: worst rounds of his life and I can't do it.
Speaker 1: It's like, my son, I can't beat you up. You're
Speaker 1: beating yourself.
Speaker 3: Up so much.
Speaker 2: Now you're going to take off him and he is.
Speaker 2: He calculating for holes. So he's like putting it out down,
Speaker 2: six down, seven.
Speaker 1: Times over and said, just tell me at the end
Speaker 1: of the round and at it up. I don't want
Speaker 1: to know during the run.
Speaker 3: Did he have money to pay you?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, always. I haven't had to give this kid
Speaker 1: an allowance since he was eight. He's always got a
Speaker 1: scam going.
Speaker 2: That's I mean, that's a pretty entrepreneurial kid.
Speaker 3: So that's good. So I mean something's working.
Speaker 1: Yes, he's and he's working it.
Speaker 3: I told you before, and yeah it works. And that's
Speaker 3: my son. Matthew is is too. I don't. He doesn't.
Speaker 2: He doesn't bet on the golf course anymore. Maybe maybe
Speaker 2: with his friends, but it's not for money, it's for honor,
Speaker 2: it's for points. They do a Ryder Cup. All his
Speaker 2: college friends get together a couple of times year and
Speaker 2: they do a Rider Cup format. And that's just fun
Speaker 2: to see that they love golf so much that they'll
Speaker 2: fly to Arizona or they'll fly up here to New
Speaker 2: York and just play.
Speaker 3: That's exciting.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So you mentioned about using golf to build a
Speaker 1: better network.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's.
Speaker 1: Bring that out. Let's tease that out for just a
Speaker 1: moment here.
Speaker 2: I've think fortunate to be part of a group called
Speaker 2: a Young Professionals Young President's Organization, which is a group
Speaker 2: of which is a group of young presidents all under
Speaker 2: fifty years old, and they have something called the Golf Network.
Speaker 2: And originally I thought the Golf Network was for all
Speaker 2: these young presidents who were you know, scratch golfers. No,
Speaker 2: the Golf Network is for like fifteen to twenty handicaps
Speaker 2: who just enjoy getting together for golf, and White is
Speaker 2: spread all over the world, and so I would look
Speaker 2: at the website and find all these different places they
Speaker 2: were hosting golf events. So the first one I found
Speaker 2: was the YPO World Championship, which I thought that sounds
Speaker 2: like a big thing, and it was in Dubai, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to go play in the YPO World Championship.
Speaker 2: It turned out to be a bunch of fifteen and
Speaker 2: twenty handicappers and Dubai was just coming together. And I've
Speaker 2: gone to events in Australia and Tasmania. I've gone to events.
Speaker 1: Events these are young that's Young Presidents organization.
Speaker 2: All Young Presidents. And so that was that was one
Speaker 2: form of my golf network. And then in New York,
Speaker 2: I know New York has a lot of golf, there's
Speaker 2: there's public I mean, we have the Ryder.
Speaker 3: Cup coming in just a couple of pages.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that case, which will be that's going to really
Speaker 2: be a major event from there. That will be as
Speaker 2: big as any Yankee World Series or Nicks basketball or
Speaker 2: you know, even they're going to have the World Cup.
Speaker 2: I don't I don't think New York expects what the
Speaker 2: Ryder Cup has become because it hasn't been here in
Speaker 2: a while, and New York is going to go absolutely
Speaker 2: crazy for their for their for the Ryder Cup.
Speaker 3: So but I have so, I have friends and we
Speaker 3: each are.
Speaker 2: Either members of private courses golf clubs or have public
Speaker 2: courses and we just play. I never I never play
Speaker 2: more than five rounds at my home club because I'm
Speaker 2: always going to my friend clubs and having home and
Speaker 2: homes and that's something I really enjoy.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's awesome. So, so your book about not
Speaker 1: about golf, you know. The line that I was fed
Speaker 1: here is that it explores the life changing joy of
Speaker 1: the game, debunking myths and highlighting how golf's momentum fosters
Speaker 1: social and networking benefits for everyone.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, because golf brings people together together of all abilities.
Speaker 2: With the handicap system, we can all play golf. So
Speaker 2: the handicap, I'm a fourteen handicap, I don't know you're something.
Speaker 3: You're a five handicap more you were a five handed.
Speaker 3: But even when in the days when you were lowered.
Speaker 2: We could play together because you would you know, you
Speaker 2: would give me a couple of strokes on different holes
Speaker 2: and we'd have very competitive matches. Equals the playing field
Speaker 2: a little bit and allows us to stay engaged, and
Speaker 2: no other sports.
Speaker 3: Really allow that.
Speaker 2: You know, you always have to have similar level of
Speaker 2: players playing or it's not satisfying. So golf brings together
Speaker 2: that way. It also brings together people in different formats
Speaker 2: at different times, and it's outdoors. It's a way to
Speaker 2: spend time with each other. And now after the pandemic
Speaker 2: where golf was completely discovered as the one sport that
Speaker 2: we could all do together, people realize that no one
Speaker 2: really cares how you're playing golf as long as you're
Speaker 2: playing fast and as long as you're keeping accurate scores.
Speaker 2: What golfers don't like is they don't like because it's
Speaker 2: one golf course for all of us, no matter what
Speaker 2: the level. So the golf course has to keep moving
Speaker 2: and golfers like to keep things honest. So if you're
Speaker 2: playing fast and you're playing honest, everybody will want to
Speaker 2: be out with you. And it's a great equalizer. And
Speaker 2: there's very few things like that that bring communities together. Men, women, children,
Speaker 2: gen Z's are playing more golf than ever, and they're
Speaker 2: not just playing on golf course, they're also playing in simulators.
Speaker 2: I think you know that half of there's seventeen million
Speaker 2: golfers who are playing in simulators, which is indoor like
Speaker 2: a five iron, which is a big simulator. Here in
Speaker 2: New York. We talked about top golf, and that's where
Speaker 2: a lot of golf is being played.
Speaker 1: Let's continue have thought about simulator golf, indoor golf, because
Speaker 1: it is really exploding right now. The technology has gotten
Speaker 1: so good. TGL has helped promote it, and I think
Speaker 1: that young people are discovering that, hey, wait, I can
Speaker 1: play golf. I can play eighteen holes of golf in
Speaker 1: under two hours and I don't have to walk or
Speaker 1: ride a cart. This sounds wonderful.
Speaker 3: And you get amazing feedback.
Speaker 2: Because Jenz loves to have feedback, how long did ago,
Speaker 2: how high did it go?
Speaker 3: What was this spin?
Speaker 2: Because they're used to video games, so they get that
Speaker 2: instant feedback, but they get the dopamine rush. If the
Speaker 2: simulator says it was too sixty two down the fairway,
Speaker 2: it's too sixty two down the fairway. There's no disputing that.
Speaker 2: And unlike en course golf, where you know, there might
Speaker 2: be a pond on the right, or there might be
Speaker 2: trees on the left. They don't see those, they don't
Speaker 2: really see those ferriers. So some of the stress that
Speaker 2: can come from just you know, looking at the site
Speaker 2: or the bunker doesn't exist. You're always hitting at the screen.
Speaker 2: So it's it's actually a more enjoyable experience where they
Speaker 2: can groove their swing get good results. And the simulative
Speaker 2: golf translates to encorese So if they play.
Speaker 3: One on one on green.
Speaker 2: Grass for every three simulators, that's a beautiful ratio. And
Speaker 2: it's also very cost effective, very cost effective, sixty five
Speaker 2: dollars an hour for similar to golf. Maybe you can
Speaker 2: get it down as though many buildings are putting simulated
Speaker 2: golf as an amenity in residential and it's an amenity
Speaker 2: and commercial now is it really?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: If you look at the Empire State Building here in
Speaker 2: New York City, the world's most famous building, they have
Speaker 2: a simulator, and they have they have tournament and they
Speaker 2: are using it as a way to get their tenants
Speaker 2: to convene groups. And it's a wonderful amendy in a
Speaker 2: building that is legendary and historic and epic as the
Speaker 2: Empire State.
Speaker 1: And as we were discussing, it builds your network. It's
Speaker 1: a great way to build your network.
Speaker 2: It builds your network, and you're talking to people. One
Speaker 2: person hits seven people are talking.
Speaker 3: I didn't.
Speaker 2: I wonder if they even played foursomes. I bet simulator
Speaker 2: golf allow us for all different formats.
Speaker 3: Sure, sure, right.
Speaker 1: Right, well right now, let's let's get back to or
Speaker 1: let's get not even back. We haven't gotten there yet.
Speaker 1: We've been chatting like this but not about golf. Is
Speaker 1: not your first book, but it's your first golf topic book.
Speaker 1: Let's establish where you came from and now you got
Speaker 1: to this spot.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm a researcher.
Speaker 2: I started off doing polling for an audacious congressman named
Speaker 2: Ed Kotch who wanted to New York City. I worked
Speaker 2: for Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton. I worked for Mike Bloomberg,
Speaker 2: and I worked for some of the top brands I
Speaker 2: worked for. I worked for Open Ai, worked for Airbnb.
Speaker 2: I've worked for all these different brands who really for politician.
Speaker 2: They wanted to get elected, for the brands who were
Speaker 2: disrupting the way that people do business. They wanted to
Speaker 2: get momentum, and so I was a momentum seeker, and
Speaker 2: so as a polster, I find information and I share
Speaker 2: it with large groups. And the book that I'm probably
Speaker 2: most well known for is called maxim Momentum, How to
Speaker 2: Get It and How to Keep It was a book
Speaker 2: about modern momentum, and momentum was always this very emotional
Speaker 2: feeling like I have momentum, I've lost momentum. I was
Speaker 2: able to quantify momentum using social media analytics and create
Speaker 2: an algorithm to decide a brand, a person, a sport,
Speaker 2: who you know who has momentum and how to keep it?
Speaker 3: And I used.
Speaker 2: So Isaac Newton's definition of mass time's velocity to calculate momentum.
Speaker 2: And so in the book, I showed how modern politicians,
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, whether you liked him or hate him, a
Speaker 2: momentum master who in politicians you always have to have
Speaker 2: maximum momentum on election day or you lose. And Trump
Speaker 2: seems to figure out how to get that momentum. And
Speaker 2: so we admired and we see politicians who couldn't get
Speaker 2: the momentum or peaked too early and lost. So that
Speaker 2: was a lesson I learned in politics and with golf.
Speaker 2: I always thought that I found golf at twenty one
Speaker 2: and it had been a real life changer for me
Speaker 2: and my family and my wife, and we played and
Speaker 2: my friends played. But I didn't understand the cultural significance
Speaker 2: of golf until the pandemic happened. And during the pandemic,
Speaker 2: golf was really one of the few things that we
Speaker 2: could do as a society, as a neighborhood, as a
Speaker 2: community to go out in golf because we had all
Speaker 2: the social protections to be outside.
Speaker 3: It wasn't contagious.
Speaker 2: We could do as for it, be together, but we
Speaker 2: could still be separated, right And so golf sturge. Eight
Speaker 2: hundred thousand more women started to play golf. Gen Z
Speaker 2: came into golf, and there were golfers who were starting
Speaker 2: to play at sixty year old golfers for the first time.
Speaker 2: We're coming out to play because they wanted to be
Speaker 2: part of it. They weren't trying to win the club championship,
Speaker 2: although maybe some of them were. Most of them just
Speaker 2: wanted to be social and be with their friends. And
Speaker 2: I could see the momentum of golf just absolutely taking off,
Speaker 2: and that's why I wanted.
Speaker 3: To share it.
Speaker 2: Because I knew they could take lessons to get their
Speaker 2: swing better, but who was going to teach them the
Speaker 2: social and networking parts of golf? And I felt that
Speaker 2: this was my opportunity to share with them.
Speaker 1: You know, in the years that I've been doing this,
Speaker 1: we've seen two momentum factors in golf, the second one
Speaker 1: being COVID where the pandemic to industries that really benefited
Speaker 1: from from the pandemic were golf and podcasting. So I
Speaker 1: seemed to be right in the right spot. Yeah, podcasting
Speaker 1: exploded at that point, but also the Tiger Woods effect
Speaker 1: in their early two thousands was another thing. So where
Speaker 1: are we now as far as momentum in golf to
Speaker 1: continue to grow the sport. Are we in a good
Speaker 1: spot or is it kind of waning because we're no
Speaker 1: that far outside of no?
Speaker 3: I think so.
Speaker 2: Tiger Woods brought in athletes and brought in people who
Speaker 2: wanted to be like Tiger play like Tiger, And I
Speaker 2: actually think that while it was amazing for the sport,
Speaker 2: that was an intimidating version of golf because Tiger Woods
Speaker 2: was an amazing player who made great shots, and that
Speaker 2: was still the era where there were golf I mean
Speaker 2: there was Nie Arnold, Palmer, Jack Nicholas and and we
Speaker 2: can go through Gary Player, all these amazing golfers and
Speaker 2: you wanted to be a PGA pro. Right, this isn't
Speaker 2: what we're talking about. We're talking about a grass roots
Speaker 2: led from the people wanting to go into the golf court.
Speaker 2: It's a very different movement that's going on right now.
Speaker 2: Which I think that as I've gone through these book
Speaker 2: tour and understanding the issue that we have Freds that
Speaker 2: we need to deal with is we've got to eradicate
Speaker 2: golf intimidation. And what I mean by golf intimidation is
Speaker 2: it's okay to duffer shot. You know, it's okay to
Speaker 2: not have to stripe a two hundred and fifty hours drive.
Speaker 2: We don't really care if the golf balls are jacked
Speaker 2: or not jacked. It's not going to make any difference
Speaker 2: to my game. I don't know if I need a
Speaker 2: new driver every year to pick up the extra ten
Speaker 2: yards for the golf that I want to play.
Speaker 3: Like I said, I probably need to plot a little
Speaker 3: bit more.
Speaker 2: And that's the type of golf that we're into now.
Speaker 2: And I say that because golf is happening everywhere. It's
Speaker 2: happened at the office, it's happening in your building, it's
Speaker 2: happening outside, it's happening with your kids, it's happening with
Speaker 2: your grandparents. Everybody is playing golf and all the and
Speaker 2: even what's more interesting, couples golf tournaments, formerly known as
Speaker 2: the Divorce Open, are.
Speaker 3: Now the rage.
Speaker 2: More people want to play with their spouse, whether it's
Speaker 2: your husband or your wife. That was always a toxic
Speaker 2: event because of some of the tension. Now people love it.
Speaker 2: They want to have play nine and wine and dine.
Speaker 2: And that's where we're at with golf. And so I
Speaker 2: think as we understand that you don't play golf to
Speaker 2: get away from your family, you play golf to be
Speaker 2: with your family. It's a very different mindset.
Speaker 1: It really is. It really is, really.
Speaker 2: Is, and I think the golf When I talked to
Speaker 2: the Golf Channel about it, I was surprised that they
Speaker 2: were my first interview because I was worried with golf,
Speaker 2: you know, with the with the golf hierarchy. Would think
Speaker 2: about a guy writing a book called Not about Golf,
Speaker 2: like how serious is he? And they were like, yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe we should maybe we are a little intimidating, and
Speaker 2: maybe people don't understand that if you talk to a
Speaker 2: PGA professional, they don't really care. If they're playing with
Speaker 2: you in a social game, they don't care how you play.
Speaker 2: They just want to like you. And that if they're
Speaker 2: in a match to win some money, or you know,
Speaker 2: an amateur event where they're going to you know where
Speaker 2: they're going to be, you know, the champion, sure they
Speaker 2: want to take it. But if they're just playing a
Speaker 2: social match where you're having a few drinks, he just
Speaker 2: wants someone who's who's engaging and quite frankly, they say,
Speaker 2: not an asshole.
Speaker 1: Part of what your book talks about is a lot
Speaker 1: about your golf. Your your experience is going and playing
Speaker 1: in some of the greatest courses. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to know, guy, you keep talking about
Speaker 1: these great courses that I'll never go to play. This
Speaker 1: is so cool and it's all about your experience. But
Speaker 1: tell me more about debunking myths in golf.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the biggest myth about golf is that
Speaker 2: it's older people, it's wealthier people, it's whier people, and
Speaker 2: that might have been a version and it's more male.
Speaker 2: That might have been a golf in the past, but
Speaker 2: it isn't what golf is today. Golf is more accessible
Speaker 2: than it's ever been. Golf is as much younger people
Speaker 2: as older people.
Speaker 3: It's as many women as men.
Speaker 2: And so I think getting rid of this older image
Speaker 2: of golf and getting to a modern image golf fashion
Speaker 2: like I'm still waiting for being able to untuck my
Speaker 2: shirt everywhere I go. It hasn't happened yet, but it's
Speaker 2: starting to. Golf is mirroring society and the values. Golf
Speaker 2: is inclusive. If I say, do you golf, I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to keep you out of my life. I'm trying
Speaker 2: to bring you into my life. I want to If
Speaker 2: I say to you golf, it means I want to
Speaker 2: spend time with you. I want to hang out with you.
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to I'm not going to judge you,
Speaker 2: hire you golf. I'm going to judge you as a person.
Speaker 2: I'm going to judge your character. I'm going to judge
Speaker 2: are you engaging? Are you caring? And that's where golf
Speaker 2: is changing. I'm not going to I mean, I might
Speaker 2: tease you a little bit if you if you make
Speaker 2: a fundy shot, but I'll do it with a smile,
Speaker 2: and I'll do it in an endearing way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the things that other people are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I can't. What a stupid
Speaker 1: game that putting a ball in a little hole.
Speaker 2: That's not what golf is because they don't get it,
Speaker 2: and they won't spend the time I have. People say,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't spend four hours doing that. I want something
Speaker 2: more athletic, I want something more strategic. I want something
Speaker 2: more engaging. And I say to them, well, why don't
Speaker 2: we come out and walk eighteen holes and you tell
Speaker 2: me how you're feeling. Why don't we think about these
Speaker 2: shots and all the different options, and you can tell
Speaker 2: me if your mind was engaged, or if you want
Speaker 2: to play inside, and let's have a few drinks and
Speaker 2: talk and then you tell me at the end what
Speaker 2: you thought, because you've made up this mental mind of
Speaker 2: what you think golf is based on some understanding that
Speaker 2: you had, and the truth of the matter is you
Speaker 2: haven't opened.
Speaker 3: Your mind to try it. And that's what I wanted
Speaker 3: to do with the book.
Speaker 2: That one of the reasons I even did the color
Speaker 2: is I didn't do like the classic Bucolic scene of
Speaker 2: a fairway with trees, I put a big golf ball
Speaker 2: with his textured because that is the universal sign that
Speaker 2: everybody recognized. Whether you play championship golf, simulator golf, mini golf,
Speaker 2: pot pop golf, everybody would no matter what language you
Speaker 2: play in, if you play in Korean, Japanese, Spanish, English,
Speaker 2: you know what a golf fall is.
Speaker 3: And we all know what a golf fall is.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. One of my favorite lines in the book
Speaker 1: is the game itself is a laboratory for positive life
Speaker 1: skills such as generosity, humility, humor, kindness, and friendship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's and you certainly know, you certainly know
Speaker 2: after fourteen holes. I don't think you have to play
Speaker 2: with someone twice. They cannot control their impulses, good or bad.
Speaker 2: Because you have adversity in golf no matter who you are.
Speaker 2: Something doesn't exactly work out the way you planned, or
Speaker 2: you have unexpected success in golf, and both of those
Speaker 2: require a certain temperament. If we are something great happen
Speaker 2: in our life, we don't instantly jump up for joy
Speaker 2: and start hugging each other. And if something bad happens,
Speaker 2: in life. You know, we don't start throwing stuff. If
Speaker 2: you know people who throw their club I'll never talk
Speaker 2: to them again.
Speaker 3: Like, I'm not into that. I want to know you
Speaker 3: need help.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of my listeners told me when he was
Speaker 1: playing with his dad when he was a kid, and
Speaker 1: he got upset and threw his club and his dad said,
Speaker 1: you're not good enough to throw your clubs yet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2: I wonder what that would feel like, because don't you
Speaker 2: need that club, you know, like.
Speaker 3: Like right, like that.
Speaker 2: I have a practical thing, so like if you throw
Speaker 2: your wedge, you're going to need to be hit that
Speaker 2: wedge again. So probably I see it like I see people,
Speaker 2: you know, slam a club, even in simulators, I see it.
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's it's golf.
Speaker 2: You have another shot, Like there's always another shot, another one.
Speaker 1: People have expectations of, like, and golf's not that easy.
Speaker 3: Who makes every who makes one hundred percent of anything?
Speaker 1: Nobody?
Speaker 3: You know, no one.
Speaker 2: The spelling test, I don't spell all the words right.
Speaker 2: It's just it's just not what I do. But I
Speaker 2: went to a golf psychiatrist. It wasn't really a golf psychiatrist.
Speaker 2: It was a sports psychiatrist. I had lost my game.
Speaker 2: I love golf.
Speaker 3: It was the most important thing to me.
Speaker 2: And then I was in a business deal, like the
Speaker 2: best business deal I'd ever had in my life, and
Speaker 2: I was deep in due diligence, and you know, they're
Speaker 2: asking me all these questions. I have just no idea
Speaker 2: what the answer to and I couldn't golf and keep
Speaker 2: my head in the due diligence, and I thought that
Speaker 2: it was gone. And I played several rounds and I
Speaker 2: said to my friend at dinner, I said, I really
Speaker 2: need to find a new golf coach because I thought
Speaker 2: I needed to work on my swing. And his wife,
Speaker 2: who never has played a round of golf in her life, says,
Speaker 2: you don't need a golf coach, you need a psychiatrist.
Speaker 2: And I said, yes, I need a psychiatrist. And so
Speaker 2: I went to the performance coach and the coach said, okay, let.
Speaker 3: Me get this right.
Speaker 2: He said, when you're I've done iron Man before as
Speaker 2: part of my afflets, and he said, like, when you're
Speaker 2: riding your bike.
Speaker 3: Do you ever see yourself just falling off?
Speaker 2: I'm like no, And he said, when you're doing a
Speaker 2: presentation in the meeting. Do you ever just see yourself
Speaker 2: going off the right rails and saying something so ridiculous
Speaker 2: that they never want to talk to you again. I said, no,
Speaker 2: when you're skiing, do you see yourself just rolling down
Speaker 2: the mountain? No? He said, so, why when you play
Speaker 2: golf do you see your ball? Why do you see
Speaker 2: the future and you see your ball going into the
Speaker 2: pond or the trees? And so he gave me this exercise,
Speaker 2: and I at first was very skeptical.
Speaker 3: And he said, five things you.
Speaker 2: See, four things you hear, three things you touched, two
Speaker 2: things you taste, and et cetera. And I, if you've
Speaker 2: ever tried that, it can knock your train of thought
Speaker 2: off from anything you're thinking, and it works. And I
Speaker 2: found out that professional golfers have tricks to also, you know,
Speaker 2: when they're when they're playing, to distract themselves a little bit.
Speaker 2: And I never knew and so like even I was
Speaker 2: playing in a golf tournament two weeks ago in Aspen,
Speaker 2: and it was a pretty tight golf tournament.
Speaker 3: I was with a friend.
Speaker 2: It was our eighteenth year and my friend had told me,
Speaker 2: you know, I spent a lot of time playing golf.
Speaker 2: I want to be competitive in this and so he
Speaker 2: really raised there and I felt a lot of pressure,
Speaker 2: but my golf was at the game. So in between shots,
Speaker 2: I would start to look at the trees and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I was starting to count the leaves, I was counting
Speaker 2: the birds. I was looking anything I could to not
Speaker 2: think about golf, so that when I got up to
Speaker 2: my shot, it just went and I thought, the mind
Speaker 2: is really active and you know, calming it down, and
Speaker 2: then I use it in work. It has the same effect.
Speaker 2: I just chill out and start to think about something else,
Speaker 2: and when the question comes to me, I know exactly
Speaker 2: what to say.
Speaker 1: Well, you just recapped over a thousand episodes of golf spread.
Speaker 2: That's why I wanted to come on this show, because
Speaker 2: I thought, you're into this stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, it's I mean. Episode one was with doctor
Speaker 1: Joe parent of Zen Golf. Oh, Zen Golf is my book,
Speaker 1: and that's why I had him on episode one in
Speaker 1: two thousand and five. He's been on the show many times.
Speaker 2: Round as you walk, absolutely, oh Zen, I'd read Zen
Speaker 2: Golf over and over again.
Speaker 3: You can't meet it enough. Oh then golf here the birds.
Speaker 1: Or one of my favorites. I mean, I have lots
Speaker 1: of lines that I quote for is it if things
Speaker 1: aren't going right, if you have a bad shot, treat
Speaker 1: it like an Etra sketch. Flip it over, shake it off,
Speaker 1: and then move of.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I love when he said yeah, he said, feel the ground,
Speaker 2: smell what's going on here, the birds that are barely chirping,
Speaker 2: and you can then golf.
Speaker 3: That was the first.
Speaker 2: Time I started to practice that, because no one, you know,
Speaker 2: they don't tell you that when you first start golf
Speaker 2: that you have to clear your mind after every shot.
Speaker 3: No, no, you're just focus on the next one.
Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, I was in Japan and
Speaker 1: we were at a with a meeting with a Buddhist
Speaker 1: monk on top of a mountain in his a little
Speaker 1: monastery there, right, and we talked about sitting meditation and
Speaker 1: walking meditatis, and then he started talking about Zen Golf,
Speaker 1: the book Zen Golf, and I'm like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: that's one of my teachers. He called it The Golf
Speaker 1: the golfing Zen, and I'm like, no, no, you mean
Speaker 1: Zen Golf. My doctor goes, yes, yes, yes, one.
Speaker 3: Of the great books. Because like, look when when when
Speaker 3: you and I started chit chatting before, I never thought
Speaker 3: this that we wouldn't have report. But it's never it's
Speaker 3: not it's not a possibility.
Speaker 2: I looked at your profile like this is exactly what
Speaker 2: I like to talk about, and so and yet on
Speaker 2: the golf course, I probably tends up all of it
Speaker 2: when we got to the first hole because we haven't
Speaker 2: golf together, you know, and so like, why how can
Speaker 2: we be so natural here? And then we get to
Speaker 2: the first t and we're like, let's see where it goes.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm flattered. Oh that's so great. Yeah, yay, Zen Golf. Okay,
Speaker 1: and again, anybody who's never read it.
Speaker 2: Get it again and again again.
Speaker 1: And he's got Zen putting, and he's got a lot
Speaker 1: of different books. I read them all, and he's just
Speaker 1: a wonderful, wonderful person. Last thing I want to touch
Speaker 1: on as far as what golf brings to the table.
Speaker 1: And you know a lot of people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm playing I play golf once or twice a year
Speaker 1: at a charity tournament. And what golf does for charity
Speaker 1: in itself, whether it's on the tour and the millions
Speaker 1: they get raised or billions too locally.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting. I have two responses to that.
Speaker 2: One, I think charity golf is just scratching the surface.
Speaker 2: It is because charity golf brings people together and it
Speaker 2: raises so much money, and yet I think the possibilities
Speaker 2: are so much more to bring in it to all
Speaker 2: different areas because charity golf is community. And my wife
Speaker 2: and I sponsored a boys and Girls club tournament and
Speaker 2: we raised hundreds of thousands of dollars in one golf event.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, if we can raise this in one
Speaker 2: golf this is the power of golf to convene people,
Speaker 2: to convene people who are like minded to support things.
Speaker 2: And so the reason I had the reaction when you
Speaker 2: said that I golf one or two times and charity,
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is somebody who we should get golfing
Speaker 2: all the time because they like golf. And then we
Speaker 2: should find different ways for charities to not just have
Speaker 2: golf events to play golf, but golf events to bring
Speaker 2: in new golfers, because it shouldn't just be that we're
Speaker 2: playing to scramble or we're playing, you know, best ball.
Speaker 2: We should have something for new golfers. If you're new
Speaker 2: to golf and you've never played, We're going to do
Speaker 2: introductory golf. We're going to teach you that etiquette that
Speaker 2: your son went through. We're going to teach you the
Speaker 2: basics of holding a club. We're going to teach you
Speaker 2: out of putt, and so we should have different levels
Speaker 2: to charity golf. I want to reinvent the way that
Speaker 2: charity golf has been. I don't want anybody at the
Speaker 2: table signing people in. I want them to sign in
Speaker 2: on their iPhone before they get there. I want all
Speaker 2: the people who are participating in the tournament on the
Speaker 2: course and interacting and golf and not being left behind
Speaker 2: in anyway. So I have a strong point of view
Speaker 2: on the power of charity golf because I just think
Speaker 2: it's starting and it's I mean.
Speaker 3: I don't even know the number of twits. I'm sure
Speaker 3: it's billions, but it's just starting.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I was on a committee putting together a
Speaker 1: charity tournament a number of years ago, and I suggested,
Speaker 1: I said, why not at the turn have some messuses
Speaker 1: there in those chair chair massage and give you a
Speaker 1: chair massage. It's like, that's.
Speaker 3: Wait.
Speaker 2: I played, I played the best tournament I play in
Speaker 2: is called the trash Masters. It's the Trash Masters is
Speaker 2: played at snow Mask Club in uh snow Mask, Colorado.
Speaker 2: And you get points for the trash, so you get hu,
Speaker 2: you get points for a sandy you get which is
Speaker 2: out of the sand.
Speaker 3: You get a barkie.
Speaker 2: If you hit a tree, you get an otis if
Speaker 2: you go up and down and and as long as
Speaker 2: you get net par you get the points. And that
Speaker 2: is the most fun way to play golf because you're
Speaker 2: just joking around with your friends trying to You don't
Speaker 2: need to score, you know, five hunder. You're looking to
Speaker 2: just get some junk. They put a tractor out there
Speaker 2: and they call it a ford like And these are
Speaker 2: just fun events. And I think a charity golf is
Speaker 2: where we should bring people in have them get unusual experiences.
Speaker 2: The massages, the drinks, the what have you to make
Speaker 2: golf fun and engaging. You know, they don't all have
Speaker 2: to be structured as a as a as a PGA event.
Speaker 1: An otis up and down way I mean to send
Speaker 1: you to send you.
Speaker 2: I'm going to send you the trash Master's Book, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to connect you trash Masters is one of
Speaker 2: the most unique tournaments. And and and Jim Nanats.
Speaker 3: Was involved that you talked about him.
Speaker 2: He's he's one of the the guys to get behind it,
Speaker 2: and it's brought this whole community together to appreciate what
Speaker 2: golf is and to enjoy this in this most unusual way.
Speaker 1: Mike, tell people how they can check out all your
Speaker 1: books and your websites and you're on social media.
Speaker 2: The best way is Not about Golf dot com, which
Speaker 2: is you can find about all the things I'm doing.
Speaker 2: You can go to Amazon and get Not about Golf,
Speaker 2: which is the book, and you can always find me
Speaker 2: at Mike Berlin dot com. But Not About Golf is
Speaker 2: the best way to learn about what we're doing and
Speaker 2: where we're going with this. The response has been absolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 2: I was quite nervous with the golf community, the hardcore
Speaker 2: golf community would think, and they love it because they
Speaker 2: know that golf intimidation is an issue that we have
Speaker 2: to overcome to grow to the next level. When it
Speaker 2: comes up from the grassroots, that's when it's sustainable.
Speaker 1: Awesome, Mike, this has been a blast. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for your time and for sharing and for wanting
Speaker 1: to be on the show so we can have this
Speaker 1: guy conversation.
Speaker 3: This has been great, This is absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2: But I'm looking forward to I'm gonna we're gonna get
Speaker 2: out and play.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm in take you
Speaker 3: To one of my magical courses.