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Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist

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Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the

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Federalist and your experienced Shurpa on today's quest for Knowledge.

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As always, you can email the show at radio at

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the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST,

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make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and

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of course to the premium version of our website as well.

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Our guest today is Robert Enlow, President and CEO of

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ed Choice. It's a good time to be in the

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school choice movement in America. Let's take a closer look

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at the opportunities and challenges ahead. Sarah, thank you so

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much for joining us on this edition of the Federalist

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Radio Hour.

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Speaker 2: Mad thanks for joining me. I am looking forward to

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the conversation. Absolutely. We talked about hopeful time several months

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ago during the twenty twenty four election cycle. We're going

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to delve into those times arriving hope turning into action.

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But before we do that, I wanted to get your

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take on once again President Trump repeating his desire to

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shut down the Department of Education, saying the first task

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for his education Secretary nominee Linda McMahon is to put

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herself out of a job. That's a different take on

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big government, certainly than we have seen in the past.

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You said recently, originally established to collect and disseminate information,

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the Department of Education's purpose has evolved far beyond its

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initial scope. I don't think anybody could disagree with that statement.

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It often imposes one size fits all policies on states

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and enacts intrusive regulations that make it harder for education

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in general of our children. Where do you.

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Speaker 1: Think all of this is heading from here?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think we're headed towards and continuing to

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head towards, an education renaissance in America where parents are

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put in charge, where dollars are following families, and where

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the role of the federal government is to come alongside

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states to help them do their job better, and in

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particularly to help school choice programs continue to grow in

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those states and maybe and hopefully start holding our traditional

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schools actually accountable for the results we have seen. We

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spent one hundred and ninety three billion dollars on COVID

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for learning loss, and our NAP scores have gotten worse.

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I think it's about high time we changed the Department

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of Education and to help make it what it's supposed

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to be, which has come alongside states and help parents

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get more choices.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe that we will see the end of

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the Department of Education? I guess you know this has

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been talked about for some time, certainly on the campaign

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Trail's been talked about by a lot of candidates over

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the years. Will we actually see that happen this time

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around in a Trump administration that has, you know, in

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its first few weeks of operation shown it is ready

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to shake up the swamp and truly drain it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So for those people who think that it can't

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at least be on the table and can't be a

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topic conversation, I'll remind everyone that I said way back

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in November that you've got to take this president seriously.

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He is going to try and be it true to

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his word related to getting rid of the Department of Education.

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So you know, you take him, you don't take him

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seriously your own peril. That said, I think you know

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they're going to be challenges. The role of the federal

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government in education doesn't just go away because there's let's

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say a reduced or diminished or dismantled department. There are

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certain things that have to continue, funding for special needs,

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funding for Title I. There's a whole host of things

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that need to continue. Now, whether they continue under our

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current department and our current structure, I think is well

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open to debate. And I think this president is tired

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of seeing nate results like we've seen in the last

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few years, and so we're going to see some real changes.

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You know, there's, for example, in the state like Indiana

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where I live, where you have a special needs education

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savings account, why doesn't the federal money that is set

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aside for that child anyway just goes directly into their account.

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Why does it need to pass through three government entities

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before it gets to a parent. So I think you're

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going to see changes. This administration is going to do

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everything they can to make them, and I think we're

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going to We're going to begin to see even more

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an education renaissance, which is happening in states. You mentioned

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the listeners real quick, the renaissance I'm talking about starting,

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you know, I would argue in twenty sixteen, with more

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and more states passing universal choice, COVID comes along and

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really just supercharges this movement. We're now to a point

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where we have fourteen states with universal school choice right

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where every family can choose. We're seeing Texas, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho,

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South Carolina, New Hampshire all on this, this move to

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make parents more empowered. And I see the federal government

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and the President is going to continue to come alongside that.

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And so I think we're headed for a renaissance. We're

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already seeing it begin to happen, and that renaissance will

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lead to better outcomes.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned the national report card just recently released. It's astounding,

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it's sad, it's a tragedy. It's an injustice really to

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so many kids who are still falling far behind.

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Speaker 2: We have a.

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Speaker 1: Proficiency l in English and in math in this country

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that certainly have not caught up to pre COVID years,

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and in many cases we're falling, as I said, further

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and further behind. What let's delve into those scores right now.

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What are we seeing in terms of the educational scores

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as it relates to different categories of students and as

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it relates to choice versus public in America.

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Speaker 2: So here's what we know, at least from the NATE scores.

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No one can read. Let's just be clear about this, right,

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barely in the last names, there's only forty percent of

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all kids career. It didn't matter if you're black, white,

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or rich. You know, only four and ten. And I

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think that number has gotten worse. Now we're looking at

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having spending billions and billions of dollars to get fewer

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and fewer results. I look at my friends state of

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Utah and when they talk about their state spending. I

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don't know if you know this, but in twenty fourteen,

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the state of Utah spent three point eight billion on

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their state's education. Today, in twenty twenty four they spent

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to seven point seven billion dollars. Their MAPE scores during

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that time for fourth grade reading went down by four points.

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So just so unclear about this. In ten years, they

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spend four billion dollars and they lost a point one

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point per billion dollars. Right, let's just call it that way.

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You know, we're seeing this massive expenditure for no results.

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Now we do know, you know, the night scores are

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collected for private schools on the whole, and they do

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do better. And the data shows that both charters and

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private schools do better on test scores for kids slightly better,

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they certainly have greater life outcomes for kids. And so

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this is why parents and policymakers are supporting choices at

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higher and higher levels, because they know it works. They

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know that kids, while their test scores may say roughly

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the same let's, they graduated higher rates, they matriculated college

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at high rates, they persisted higher rates. They have a

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lot more going on for their future, and they're not

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stuck in the same old, same old. So the name

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scores are telling us one thing and one thing only.

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We are wasting a lot of money to get very

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little results, and the choice programs are telling us one thing,

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and that is we can get a lot better results

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for a lot less money, and kids can get more opportunities.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't always like this, I mean, you and I have

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talked about this before. States across the country were excelling worldwide,

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of course, and we had states in particular. I think

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about where I grew up in the Midwest. You know,

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an exceptional education, uh, you know, being a student fellow

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of a certain age. You know where we had to

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walk uphill both ways, you know, with with four feet

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of snow every day, even in this even in the summer.

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For those of us are falling behind, how to go

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to summer school. We had snow in the summer in

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wiscons That's what I tell my kids at plus fifty

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years old right now.

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Speaker 2: But you know it was true.

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Speaker 1: We got a very very good education. We were leading

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the world. How did we get here? And how do

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we get out of this place? How do we get

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kids reading again?

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Speaker 2: For the love? So, I think there's two things that

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three things that happened that I think your listeners need

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to know. And we hear this all the times. Why

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can't it be like it used to be. It used

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to be the public schools are the best in the world.

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What happened? Right? I think three things happened. Schools of

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education destroyed teaching, in my opinion, teachers used to be

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taught how to teach phonics, how to teach basics, how

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to teach the real rigorous type of curriculum, and it

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just changed. And schools of education in America are largely

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to bang for what I would consider to be a

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de profile sexualization and really just taking the role of

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teaching and really making it something that it shouldn't be

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the results are really poor. The second thing I would

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say is we created this idea in the eighties and nineties,

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and part of was because of a nation at risk,

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this sort of idea that came out that our scores

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were really bad back then. Right back then, the nation

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at risk said, I think the quote was if a

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foreign government was going to do this to us, we

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would consider it an act of war. If that's the case,

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we've been losing this war for the last thirty years,

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maybe even fifty years. The result of that, though, was

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a lead to standardization, like state based test scores, standardized

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curriculums that smarter than smarter than me people come up with.

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None of that existed when you and I were school Right,

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we took the Iowa Test of Basic Skills and got

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held to account for it, right, and so number two pencil,

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number two pencil. So I think that the sort of

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central eigeh and standardization effort in our public schools really

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hurt the ability of public schools to be responsive to

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families needs. So I think let's go back. Teacher prep

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changed dramatically and really did focus on things like whole

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language and things that were not productive for kids learning

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to the move towards standardization, and the way we did

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it was really negative. And three we basically got rid

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of choices for families. So and that same time, from

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the seventies until today, we've seen a consolidation of I

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think I think someone around that forty or fifty thousand

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school districts. You know, in the nineteen fifties, I think

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there were about seventy thousand school districts. Today they are

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about thirteen thousand, five hundred. So we really didn't see

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a lot of options for families. I'm particularly low income families.

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And so you know, the lack of choice, the increase

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in what I would call the monopoly standardization, and the

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lack of high quality teaching prep programs I really think

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have led to where we are now, to why parents

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wanted significant amount more choice.

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Speaker 1: Let's delve into that a little bit further. On the standardization,

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A couple of things happened over the last twenty five

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thirty years in this country. How much did common core

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impact what we're seeing? How much did no child left behind?

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Where now we have seen so many children left behind

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over the last twenty five years in this country that

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have an impact.

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Speaker 2: I think it had something to do with it. I'm

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not going to lie on. I appreciate the desire of

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no child left behind to disaggregate data, and there were

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some good things about that, But as Milton Friedman used

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to say, you should not judge its programs by its intentions,

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but by its results. And the results of these efforts

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of more standardized curriculum and more common core and more

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top down sort of smart reformers has been to basically

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improve the quality of education anywhere. So I'm really pessimistic

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about the role of sort of standardized curriculum and standardized

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testing to get us out of this mix. I think

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we need to give parents more power. Look, you also

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got to remember what's the purpose of education, And purpose

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of education is different for every child. It shouldn't be

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for them to pass a test that doesn't matter in

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some instances. Right, so they pass a test in ninth

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grade that's based on eighth grade skills, how is that

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going to make them have a later life outcome that matters?

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And I think you know, look, you can talk about

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the family, you can talk about all this, but when

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the parents lost their power in education and when bureaucrats

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became in charge, is when we started to see all

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this go downhill.

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percent off an annual plan. Okay, so we're seeing a

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different time in America on that front, and certainly a

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president refreshingly. I think a lot of folks listening to

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this conversation, we'll say is putting power back into the

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into the parents domain. You know, I think about you know,

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what was happening around twenty eleven in my home state

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of Wisconsin. Act ten at that time was being driven

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by Republican Governor Scott Walker in a Republican controlled legislature.

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I remember were the teachers unions descending on the Capitol

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and the massive protest covered nationally, covered by the way,

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along with remember the Egyptian Spring and the protests the

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Middle East. They were these big teachers unions and their

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struggles against having to actually have parents and school boards

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have a say at the negotiating table for their contracts.

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That's what they were equating that too, you know, to

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the quest for democracy in the Middle East, for goodness sake.

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But you know, I think about that time and the expansion,

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for instance, of school choice that occurred under that and

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every step of the way, these teachers unions and the

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politicians that are richly supported and funded by these teachers

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unions fought them tooth and nail trying to put them,

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you know, out of business. We saw during the Obama years,

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you know, these horrible investigations against parental choice programs in

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places like Milwaukee and New Orleans and elsewhere. It has

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been a struggle. But yet it is not only has

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the choice movement survived, as you mentioned during COVID that

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those times really shone a light on just how important

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parental choice is. Now you have a president who has

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been declared and I think understandably so the school choice president.

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Where do we go from here at this point?

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Speaker 2: So there's a couple of things I want to say

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about that. First of all, I really appreciate that. First look,

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this isn't about I appreciate President Trump and his support

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for a parent choice and it's to really shake things up.

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School choices, you know, has been around long before President Trump,

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and it's going to be around long after President Trump.

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There are times when there are Democrats that were supporting

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more opportunities, like President President Clinton when he supported charter schools.

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So there's a goal here is to have good policy.

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And the previous administration and many administrations, particularly the state level,

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many supported by your governor right in Wisconsin, Bill Evers right,

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have been opponents of school choice over years. The reality though,

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is that those families are winning the argument and Evers

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is losing the argument. So I was going to pull

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up something we do every year at ed Choice called

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the ED choice share, which is what is the percent

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of families in a state that get to choose something

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outside of their traditional public schools. Wisconsin is now actually

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number six in the country for ED choice share. And

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here's why that's important. When we started tracking this data,

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there were eighty one point six percent of kids in

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their residential assigned public school. Today, twenty years later, they're

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only sixty nine percent of kids in traditional assigned public schools.

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Choice is winning in your state, whether that's through the

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private school choice program, magnet schools, charter schools, or this

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massive growth and interdistrict choice where kids can go from

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one public school to another. Families are making a lot

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more choices in the state of Wisconsin, and that means

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they're winning. And this is why choice is like undergoing

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a renaissance. And it's not just these bills that are

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passing all over. Right, I've rarely been as optimistic as

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I am now in the school choice movement. But I'm

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positive that there's movement on policy. But more importantly, there

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are teachers out there now who are tired of the system,

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who are building their own schools. There are parents who

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are coming together in co ops and trying something new.

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There is such an underground economy happening in education they

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would shock you. In the state of Indiana, when we

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started looking at this two years ago, we wanted to

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start micro schools and help with them. Started we saw

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that there were six in the state when we first

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started looking around. They're now sixty nine in the state. Right.

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Think about the growth of that in two years. Right.

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So families are just taking this on themselves, and they're

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taking their power back, regardless of whether there's choice programs,

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but choice programs are now helping them do that. So

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I'm excited. You know, on one hand, we've seen this

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massive problem with our government run monopoly and this massive

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growth in the rise of parent choice. Milton Freeman used

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to say, the presence of an underground economy is sure

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fire bet that there's going to be radical transformation soon,

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and I think we're there.

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Speaker 1: President Trump on the campaign trail called this school choice

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movement and the you know, the the war to reclaim

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education in America, successful education in America. He called it,

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you know, the civil rights battle of our time.

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Speaker 2: Do you agree? So that's a great question. You know,

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people use the language as civil rights, and I think

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that's important. I'm glad that they try to look at

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it that way. I certainly have seen it that way before.

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I look at this issue as it's the human rights

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issue of our time. Right, there is nothing more important

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than children's education. Right. We have to ensure that children

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who are going to go ahead and run society actually

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have the ability to do so. It is a civil

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right in the fact that it's a human right that

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we should be having. Rose Friedman, Milton's wife, used to say,

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if you can't read, if you can't write, if you

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can't compute, if you can't understand history, who's going to

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govern the affairs of our country? And I think The

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important point to make here is that is it a

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civil right. Yes, the people who are getting the worst results,

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our kids who are in low income backgrounds, our kids

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in our urban areas. That's terrible and we should we

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should be all against that. But look, if we know

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that black and brown kids are learning less, their test

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scores on nighbor even lower than white kids, Sure we do,

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but white kids test scores are less than forty percent.

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So I don't know about you, but I don't know

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if the gap, which is a problem, is the only problem.

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So we have a human right issue here because our

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human rights are being violated by the fact we don't

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have quality education. And I don't know who's going to

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run our government if we don't have kids who understand anything.

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One of my favorite movies you should watch, if you

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haven't in your listeners should watch is something called idiocracy. Right. Oh,

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it's the future of America if we don't actually have

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an educated populace.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's frightening, and it's all too true. I mean,

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because let's be honest, in many ways, the future is now.

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What we've seen, of course, coming out of the Doge

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protest from many individuals on the left who are trying

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to die on the political hill of waste is good

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in government? I mean, that's where we're at in America.

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That is the idiocracy going on. Our guest today is

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00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,799
Robert Enlow, President and CEO of ED Choice. We're talking

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about the school choice movement in America. Just sellbraided National

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00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:08,440
school Choice Week, and President Trump did, indeed, with an

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exclamation point to school Choice Week, sign in executive order

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that puts school choice as a priority at the federal level. Now,

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all of that said, you can you know better than anybody, Robert,

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you can only do so much at the federal level.

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It has a relatively as big as it seems, it

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has a relatively small role to play. Yet, what did

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you think of the provisions that came out of the

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executive order on school choice?

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Speaker 2: Look, I loved it because what it basically said I've

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been saying this. First thing it did is I think

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it tried to recognize the appropriate role of the federal

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government in education while making sure that states deliver the

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education and it's their right. So he did a really

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good job of balancing. I think that there is a

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role for federal government. Here's what it is. It's coming

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alongside states to give them more opportunities. It's coming alongside

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them to give more innovation. It's coming alongside parents to

401
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give them more options. And then it's saying, but the

402
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states need to run this stuff. And so I think

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the executive order is a great step in the right direction.

404
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He's and called upon these departments to have sixty to

405
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ninety days to come up with how to spend money

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more effectively. But also he took action and said, hey,

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we can help our families and military schools in Dodia schools,

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Department of Defense schools, or families who are Bureau of

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Indian Education schools. Those are direct federal programs that he

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can impact immediately, and I think he's doing that with

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this executive order. So it's just great balance of like, hey,

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we believe states should be the primary drivers' education, and

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the role of the federal government has come alongside them.

414
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So look, I was excited by it. I think it's

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the right direction for our country to get the federal

416
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,240
government more and more out of it and to help

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them come along side states to do their job better.

418
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And I think that this President's going to do that.

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Speaker 1: And there is a mood shift here obviously a tone shift,

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which is very important, and I bring that up for

421
00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:16,079
several reasons. During the Biden years, during the Obama years,

422
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I talked about the Department of Justice Dear Colleague letters

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00:25:20,559 --> 00:25:24,599
and the subsequent investigations that came out of that. I

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00:25:24,599 --> 00:25:27,319
think that stuff was going on during the Biden years.

425
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:33,039
Those were very adversarial times to school choice. Those things

426
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,720
I believe to be the case will now stop. School

427
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:43,000
choice will have some room to breathe in the States.

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Speaker 2: I think President Obama, regardless of what you think about this,

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and I'm not going to argue one way or the

430
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other way on this, right, I had my personal opinion

431
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on him. But President Obama when he started talking about

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transgender bathrooms, right when he started that executive when he's

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started that sort of a dear Colleague letter out of

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the Department of Education, States, as I recall, States were saying, hey, okay,

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you're telling us this, we would like to have just

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simply then you single sex bathrooms in the sense that

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you know, one create bathrooms that are sort of all gender, right,

438
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but have one stall right, have one bathroom, which is

439
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,319
a reasonable frank, whether regardless what you think, it's a

440
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reasonable solution, right, the administration said, no way, we won't

441
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allow that. You're going to be forced to and compelled

442
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to accept this guidance. And I think President Obama, whether

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he realizes it or not, helped to start this movement

444
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of parental freedom because of his compulsion and trying to

445
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force an ideology on schools, whether families wanted it or not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that is an interesting point where a

447
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lot of this stuff began. And then of course it

448
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continued on into an administration, into the Biden administration, where

449
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you actually have the Department of Justice and the Attorney General,

450
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,240
you know, telling FBI officials, let's monitor school boards, you know,

451
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,960
let's harass parents who are coming up to try to

452
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argue for a better life and educational life for their kids. So,

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you know, it is a vastly different environment. But as

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we've talked about before, with all of these executive orders,

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they're transitory. That is to say that the next administration,

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as we have seen over the last twelve years in

457
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this country, the next administration comes along and all of

458
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the things you've achieved for in this case, school choice

459
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go away because you have someone, you have a president

460
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who's had the serial to that. How important then is

461
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Congress in this And what does Congress need to do

462
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to make sure that school choice protections are enshrine so

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that school choice can thrive.

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Speaker 2: So Congress can do a lot of things right. And

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this is where the Department of Education's future is really

466
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in Congress's hands as much as anything, because Congress has

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to set the tone of how they're going to fund

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education at the federal level, fund educational programs. And so

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Congress has a big job in front of them, and

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I think they have two things they can do. One,

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they can make sure that the allocations of funds through

472
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the federal Department of Education or whatever department or whoever

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agency gets distributed is distributed in ways that are friendly

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and flexible to states. Right, rather than having ourcane funding

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formulas for like Title one that just don't work and

476
00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:46,079
often create major disincentives to help families, why don't they

477
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just block grant to states and let states figure it

478
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out so long as they meet certain criteria. So the

479
00:28:51,359 --> 00:28:54,599
Congress has a role in ensuring that funds can be

480
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,880
used flexibly and efficiently right at the state level. Two,

481
00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:05,279
they can also support parental school choice by coming alongside

482
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,799
these There's two proposals out there right now. One would

483
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:14,200
create a tax credit scholarship that would allow donors to

484
00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:18,279
give get a federal tax credit dollar for dollar federal

485
00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:21,400
tax credit for moneies they give to nonprofits that help

486
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,519
families get scholarships. That's a huge book plus and it's

487
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:27,920
a I think it's a ten billion dollar program, which

488
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:33,400
would be great. Coming alongside passing that program, seeing more families,

489
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,079
particularly in blue states, benefiting as a result of that

490
00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:38,920
would be great. There's also, I believe a tax credit

491
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,440
program for individuals that are running that is running through

492
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,920
so Congress can pass these kind of efforts and this

493
00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:50,240
monies that give families more freedom and help states be

494
00:29:50,319 --> 00:29:52,279
more flexible. So that's what Congress can do.

495
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: There's a specific reason why some of these politicians hate

496
00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:04,440
Elizabeth Warren claims she doesn't accept donations from big pharma.

497
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:07,359
Not only does she collect money, she collects more than

498
00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:11,000
anyone else does. And the person next in line, Bernie Sanders.

499
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,319
Check out the Watchdog on Wall Street podcast on Apple, Spotify,

500
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:23,799
wherever you get your podcasts.

501
00:30:19,759 --> 00:30:21,799
Speaker 1: And what are we seeing at the state level? You

502
00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:25,799
touched upon it before you know you're seeing multiple states

503
00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:28,559
now what did you say, fourteen states altogether? This would

504
00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:31,160
have been unheard of, of course, maybe a decade and

505
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,400
a half ago, but fourteen states now have some form

506
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,880
of universal school choice. What are we seeing in the

507
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:46,640
early sessions to expand that elsewhere and to help parents

508
00:30:47,119 --> 00:30:49,079
on the road to choose.

509
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,039
Speaker 2: State for that? You know, it's the states where the

510
00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:54,640
real action is, as they say, state and local, And

511
00:30:54,759 --> 00:30:57,200
right now I said fourteen because we've already seen the

512
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,799
State of Tennessee. It was thirteen until this last week.

513
00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:05,680
The State of Tennessee past a universal eligibility program that

514
00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:09,680
will give families thousands of dollars to make more choices

515
00:31:10,319 --> 00:31:15,960
that will prioritize kids, but ultimately grow over time to

516
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,920
allow all children to be able to choose, which is great.

517
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,759
The State of Tennessee and State of Texas is considering

518
00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:24,880
a billion dollar a year program for school choice, which

519
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,599
would be ESAs for roughly ninety five thousand kids. And

520
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,519
so they're looking to really grow their program, make us

521
00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:33,960
one of the biggest programs out of the gates in

522
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,519
the country. You're looking at New Hampshire looks like well,

523
00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:41,640
probably and we hope will take its program from three

524
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,440
hundred percent to free and reduced price lunch to universal.

525
00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:47,359
That program is a model for the nation. What they've

526
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,359
been doing there has been fantastic, and it's being spearheaded

527
00:31:51,359 --> 00:31:54,279
by a lot of local activists who are making sure

528
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:58,160
that current program is running and operating very well. You're

529
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,799
looking at a state like South Carolina trying to pass

530
00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:04,519
broader school choice, and then you're looking at Utah, which

531
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:08,279
is trying to increase its current program by a lot

532
00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:11,440
of money. And then what I call the drive for

533
00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:18,480
the Upper Northwest. Right, so North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Wyoming, Montana,

534
00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:23,039
and Idaho are all considering universal educational choice programs and

535
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:25,440
they all have a real chance. And so I think,

536
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,319
you know, this administration could do anything that's coming on

537
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,480
making sure that those states which are Trump Country understand

538
00:32:32,599 --> 00:32:34,680
how important it is to this president. So we're seeing

539
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,960
a lot of movement all over the country. You know,

540
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:39,680
before this year, forty percent of all kids in America

541
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,079
were eligible. By the end of this year, we might

542
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,799
see fifty percent of all kids are, maybe even fifty

543
00:32:44,839 --> 00:32:47,599
five percent. So there's just massive growth of the states

544
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:50,680
and we're excited by it. Now, the goal is you

545
00:32:50,759 --> 00:32:53,160
can't just pass a program. You've got to make sure

546
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,319
parents use it, and you got to make sure vendors

547
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,359
join it, and you got to make sure everyone's aware

548
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,519
of it. And so the key thing that ED choice

549
00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:02,240
will do is make sure that we're helping people be

550
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,000
more aware of their choices and more able.

551
00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:10,519
Speaker 1: To choose them. That's interesting because we certainly have seen

552
00:33:11,759 --> 00:33:14,960
regimes that are resistant to that in states, resistant to

553
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,440
school choice, but you know, trying to do whatever they

554
00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:22,480
can to block or make it more challenging for parents

555
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,279
to get involved. And I think organizations like yours can

556
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,599
be a you know, have been a very solid voice

557
00:33:29,599 --> 00:33:33,480
in making sure that those options are available there. You know,

558
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,359
we're talking about a philosophy in education that has long

559
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,559
been at its core, what we're talking about is the

560
00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:48,440
funding following the child, following the families, not the school systems.

561
00:33:49,359 --> 00:33:53,119
And you know, that's a real departure in thinking from

562
00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:58,720
century and a half of public education in America, once

563
00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:03,240
lauded as the gold standard. As certainly as we've talked

564
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,039
about fallen apart. There are millions of people in this country, though,

565
00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:10,360
that believe the money should follow the systems. And when

566
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,199
you take the money out of those systems and put

567
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,480
them into let's say, on the school choice side of things,

568
00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:22,960
bouchers or charters that don't align with the usual public

569
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:29,199
school systems. Then you're depriving kids in those public education settings,

570
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,280
which is always the argument. But then let's Robert, let's

571
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,679
take a look at the funding levels, because you're, for instance,

572
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,199
again in the state of Wisconsin, the state of Iowa,

573
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,679
you know where I live. Now, I'm seeing education, public

574
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:50,159
education funding, you know, growing at you know, at a

575
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,599
record pace. In a lot of cases, it is growing

576
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,599
a lot, and it continues to grow. I want to

577
00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:59,159
go back to something you said, though you know, U

578
00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:01,840
we're not really looking.

579
00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: We want all dollars to follow all kids, right, And

580
00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:08,320
that's the plan and the goal. What that is is

581
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,280
basically extending the idea of public education to all school types. Right.

582
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:17,559
So public schools basically all kids are served, and all

583
00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:19,960
dollars follow them. Right. So if you move from one

584
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,480
public school district in Iowa to another one, guess what

585
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:26,079
happens to your money? It follows you. And the same

586
00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:28,519
thing needs to be true regardless of school type. I

587
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:32,599
think what the difference is happening right now is we

588
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,039
just want in the private school choice and the charter

589
00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:38,280
school choice in the micro schooling sector, to basically say,

590
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,280
we just want what public schools have had for one

591
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,760
hundred and fifty years as a monopoly. We think the

592
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,519
dollars should follow kids just like they do in public

593
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:48,960
schools because that's the best and most effective way to

594
00:35:49,079 --> 00:35:51,639
educate kids. So in one way it's brand new and

595
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,320
another way, now we're just asking for what every public

596
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,000
school gets all the time. We're asking for funding equity

597
00:35:58,039 --> 00:36:01,519
and funding parity. And we know he's on the other

598
00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:04,639
side of that question. Is we know that the monopoly

599
00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:08,119
of K twelve education right that we call it public education,

600
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,559
I always say it's publicly funded, state and district run education. Right.

601
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,360
That's very different than public public education because every child

602
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,400
that is educated in a charter school or in one

603
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,159
of our great public schools, or in a private school

604
00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:26,679
or online or at home, if done well, every child

605
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,880
in those setting is educated in the public interest. The

606
00:36:30,039 --> 00:36:32,159
question that we have to ask ourselves is is the

607
00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:35,440
public interest only served by a state run school system?

608
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,199
And it's not. And so this is why school choice

609
00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:42,360
has been on the rise, because parents recognize that they

610
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,119
can get an education for their children. Those children are

611
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:48,599
getting served better and the public interest is being served.

612
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,440
All the while the monopoly that we know, which is

613
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,960
basically state run schools, is continuing to gobble up more

614
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,280
and more money. I ask this all the time. If

615
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,559
I were to ask you or your listeners, do you

616
00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:02,800
think raise your hand if you think the traditional public

617
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,440
schools waste of money and don't spend it. Effectually every

618
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,800
hand in the room would go up, right, And that's

619
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,079
what we're trying to combat. We're trying to combat a

620
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,440
monopoly system that is not working in a parented interests

621
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,079
in the best way. This is not about individual public schools.

622
00:37:18,119 --> 00:37:20,119
There are a lot of great ones, right, This is

623
00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:23,920
about a system that is basically broken. Yeah, you're right.

624
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,280
Every hand would go up.

625
00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: I think most people would say there's a good deal

626
00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:33,480
of waste and inefficiency in our schools. But we're making

627
00:37:33,519 --> 00:37:37,760
that argument now conservatives, you know, limited government conservatives are

628
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,559
making this argument right now with the federal government and

629
00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:43,360
all of the waste and fraud and abuse therein and

630
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:49,199
it's being exposed, you know, at an alarming pace for

631
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,360
some people. And the same people would raise their hands

632
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,159
about waste in the federal government. Some of those are

633
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:01,320
now hitting the streets and protesting that were actually shining

634
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,119
a light on it and trying to expose that because

635
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:10,400
and I make all that point, you know, because people

636
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:16,639
in general, in schools across the school districts across the country,

637
00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:19,840
they live in their communities, and for the most part,

638
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,960
they like their schools. You know, they're still willing to

639
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,480
pay for them. So you know, there is a bit

640
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,559
of a disconnect. How do you motivate and get around

641
00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:29,480
that disconnect?

642
00:38:29,519 --> 00:38:32,519
Speaker 2: I guess so I think that disconnect has gotten around.

643
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,280
I've been saying this a long time now. The last

644
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,559
five years a long time against five years is a

645
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:42,639
long time in America. For the longest time, Americans had

646
00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:46,719
the common cultural experience of traditional public education. You and I,

647
00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:49,760
you talked about it. We went uphill both ways to school,

648
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,840
even in summer, right, oh yes, and we walked ourselves

649
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,559
to school. This is this common experience of a common

650
00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:59,320
school system that everyone understood, right, but no one had

651
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,639
ever really looked under the hood of right. And so

652
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,719
COVID comes along and all of a sudden parents get

653
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,360
a peek under the hood. The common cultural experience changed

654
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:13,760
and so people are parents in particularly saying what the

655
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,800
heck is going on with my kids schooling and what

656
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,280
the heck is going on with schooling in general, and

657
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,079
they said they'd had enough. And so even though they

658
00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:25,639
have much at the local level schools, local schools are

659
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,000
very dear to people's hearts. That's great, I get that,

660
00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:30,880
but families are starting to vote with their own feet

661
00:39:31,039 --> 00:39:34,039
in those local areas. One of the most exciting things

662
00:39:34,039 --> 00:39:37,440
we're seeing is the growth of school choice in more

663
00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:40,800
local and more rural areas. Parents are trying to take

664
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,639
it onto their own hands. And I think they're just

665
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,599
frustrated with and you've seen these school board meetings. They

666
00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:48,440
are frustrated with school boards that just don't listen to them.

667
00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:51,599
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and we've seen that over and over again

668
00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:55,199
in this country for a lot of different reasons. And

669
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,719
then I do want to expound upon that you touched

670
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,280
upon it before, and that is durrence, you know, particularly

671
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,199
post COVID, when they had to watch their kids and

672
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,679
the education that they were getting, the online education that

673
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,519
they were getting in that particular case, or quite frankly

674
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:21,480
not getting. I remember a concept called asymmetric learning at

675
00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:24,920
the time, which was a fancy word for saying, your

676
00:40:25,079 --> 00:40:28,840
kids are no longer under the tutelage of their teachers.

677
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,840
They're on their own. And that's what parents saw. These

678
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:38,800
kids were absolutely on their own during COVID and it

679
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,679
really opened their eyes. So now, over the last four

680
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,760
years in this country, what have we done with that information?

681
00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's exactly right. So parents, look, parents

682
00:40:53,119 --> 00:40:58,280
are driving their kids to the best educational possibilities in

683
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,360
the world. Look at the state of Florida. Florida passed

684
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,840
a universal choice program just a couple of years ago.

685
00:41:04,039 --> 00:41:06,480
They had a choice program in the state for twenty years.

686
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,559
They now have half a million kids in their various

687
00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:14,159
private school choice programs. But more than that, it's the

688
00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:18,119
amount of choices they have in magnet schools and charter schools.

689
00:41:18,519 --> 00:41:20,880
State of Florida is our number one ed choice share

690
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,519
state because they go They went from eighty I think

691
00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:27,280
eighty two percent of the kids in traditional public schools

692
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,079
in two thousand and one to today only fifty one

693
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,760
percent of the kids. You're looking at a place like Indianapolis,

694
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,559
where they have a public school district. Here Indianapolis public

695
00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:40,360
schools where just barely a third of the kids in

696
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,199
this district attend their assigned public school. Choice is having

697
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,679
a huge impact. And it's not just private school choice.

698
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,880
It's charter schools, it's public to public transfers, it's homeschooling.

699
00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:56,639
It's this robust educational environment that's being created in local

700
00:41:56,679 --> 00:41:59,599
areas and states all across the country that were most

701
00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:00,639
excited about it.

702
00:42:01,199 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: Very good and so finally for you, what's next for

703
00:42:04,639 --> 00:42:07,800
ed Choice in this new exciting moment in time for

704
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:08,880
school choice?

705
00:42:09,159 --> 00:42:11,079
Speaker 2: You know. So ed Choice, as you know, has been

706
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:14,719
around for twenty eight years. We were the oldest school

707
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,320
choice organization in the country. The first twenty years was

708
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:22,199
making sure that we built coalitions, that we educated people

709
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,599
on the need for school choice, that we got Milton

710
00:42:24,639 --> 00:42:27,239
Freeman's vision out there, and then we sort of filled

711
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,360
that put pins in the map like they get a

712
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,960
new programs every year. You know, from twenty sixteen to

713
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,800
twenty twenty, we focused on every universal choice need to

714
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,639
promote universal choice. Now from twenty twenty five, were just

715
00:42:40,639 --> 00:42:44,039
getting ready to launch our strategic plan. We are going

716
00:42:44,079 --> 00:42:47,320
to focus on making sure we achieve Milton Freeman's vision

717
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,760
of a radically transformed system of education where all kids

718
00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:54,159
can get all the options with all the dollars, because

719
00:42:54,159 --> 00:42:57,159
that's what we're looking for, not just kids getting access

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to education, but they're aware of their option and their

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So ED Choice is going to focus on those three things,

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making sure all kids have choice, making sure they're aware

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of their choice, and making sure they're dog gone making

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a choice.

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Speaker 1: It couldn't be a more important mission. And as you

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said and said so well, this is a human rights

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issue at the end of the day. Thanks to my

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00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,679
guest today, Robert Enlo, President and CEO of ED Choice,

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00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:27,159
you've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour.

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I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll

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be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of

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00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,639
freedom and anxious for the fray.

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Speaker 2: Hearn a fameboic the reason then it away