WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.080 Joining us now to start the three o'clock hour of 2 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:05.160 the program, The Great Howard Beck from The Ringer on 3 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:05.759 a Thursday. 4 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:09.880 Howard, Happy Thursday, sir. How are you you? 5 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:12.199 I'm well, do we find do we find you? In 6 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:14.080 a lovely Indianapolis, Indiana? 7 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:15.880 Currently you do? 8 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:18.440 I had a guy Okay, I'll tell you what on 9 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:20.719 television that building looked insane. 10 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:22.800 As a guy that was there. What was the atmosphere 11 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:23.440 like last night? 12 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:28.000 Really great? It's funny because I was having this conversation 13 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:31.199 with someone, a couple people at the arena earlier to 14 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:33.479 day after practice. We were just kind of, you know, 15 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:36.240 chit chatting about the crowd, the intensity and all that stuff, 16 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:40.920 and comparing to Oklahoma. And I will say, this is 17 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:42.719 not a knock in India at all. Like it was 18 00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:44.960 super loud, and I think it was still like slightly 19 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:48.719 less loud than Oklahoma at its peak because the thunder 20 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:51.799 crowd is just incredible, man Like, it just never lets up. 21 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:55.000 It's ear splitting and listen. I was at a bunch 22 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.600 of playoff games at Madison Square Garden this spring, and 23 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:01.359 it's always out of the garden, even even in bad times, 24 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:03.479 it's always out of the Garden. I don't think that 25 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.480 anybody can, like for my limited movement around the league 26 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:09.079 the last couple of years that don't travel nearly as 27 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:11.159 much as I used to. I think Oklahoma is the 28 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:13.760 loudest arena and it's the one place like I walk 29 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:16.959 out of thinking like I don't know if like my 30 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:19.599 hearing might be damaged, right, Like maybe I should have 31 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:24.400 worn ear plugs. So but the Pacers fans last night 32 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:28.599 like dished it out just as well. Maybe not the 33 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:31.400 same decibel level, but it was. It was raucous there 34 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:34.640 and like they're just you know, the Pacers are are 35 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:40.280 are every turn, are surprising everybody, and you know obviously 36 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:41.359 they're related here. 37 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.760 Since you brought up Madison Square Garden, Howard Penny for 38 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:48.840 your thoughts, A bit of a non sequitor. 39 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:51.439 We'll get back to the finals, of course. Yeah, but 40 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:53.000 look like my. 41 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:56.280 Whole thing A was like, down't fire, am, but b 42 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.519 if you do, you better have a contingency in place. 43 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:04.200 Emi Udoka, Jason Kidd, Chris Finch, Quinn Snyder, Billy Donovan, 44 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:07.879 Oh for five, I mean you can't like this is 45 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:09.400 truth is stranger than fiction. 46 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:11.759 Stuff with this moron who owns the team. 47 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:16.080 So give me your thoughts on what they're doing and 48 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:18.360 who do you think ultimately gets that job. 49 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.680 Speacoming like performance art. I said this last night on 50 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.360 Blue Sky, where like I'm wondering if they're just are 51 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:32.360 the next trolling us the audience? They are they trolling 52 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:35.639 their own owners, the front office, trolling Dolan for being 53 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:39.120 the one who probably arguably is the one who fired Tibbs, 54 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.199 like maybe over some frontfous objections, like like what is 55 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:47.199 going on here? Listen, Like you and I collectively have 56 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:50.159 seen a lot a lot of stuff at the garden, 57 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:52.039 a lot of weird things, a lot of things that 58 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:55.319 have not happened anywhere else. But I've been doing this 59 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:57.360 for twenty eight years covering the league, and I've never 60 00:02:57.439 --> 00:02:59.960 seen a team be shot down. What do we have 61 00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:00.439 to four? 62 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:02.680 Five? Five teams? 63 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:06.439 Five teams? Don't I don't understand this. Forget the whole 64 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:08.439 tips thing for a minute. Forget whether or not they 65 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:10.000 should have had somebody lined up. If you're going to 66 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.360 fire a coach with that resume, you better have a 67 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:14.159 better one in mind. Blah blah blah. That's all fine, 68 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:16.680 even if this has just been like your your garden 69 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:18.680 variety average. We fired a coach and we need to 70 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:21.840 high replacement, and we're doing our due diligence. I don't 71 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:28.120 recall anybody's due diligence involving trying to pry loose five 72 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:32.719 different coaches who are already under contract and being turned 73 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.599 down by them. It doesn't look great on a number 74 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:39.719 of levels. It starts to feel kind of comical and desperate. 75 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:42.879 They're being mocked by Charles Barkley, They're being mocked by 76 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:47.159 Kevin Garnett, so that, you know, after years of building 77 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.400 their esteem back up, building their respectability back up, they're 78 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:53.199 now starting to look like the the you know, weird 79 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:56.439 old nicks of just flailing around. So it's a bad 80 00:03:56.479 --> 00:04:00.159 look in that regard. The other thing is like which 81 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:02.520 aren't let out of their contracts very often in this league, 82 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:04.520 Like it happened with Doc Rivers once upon a time, 83 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:08.759 going from Boston to the to the Clippers, And there 84 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:11.000 was another one within the last like seven eight years. 85 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.599 Who am I? Who am I thinking of? But it's 86 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.240 I mean, Jason Kidd went to the Bucks from the 87 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:20.920 Nets with some draft compensation. But it just doesn't happen 88 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:23.240 very often. It's like a once every seven to ten 89 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:26.720 years kind of thing. And to think that you're just 90 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:29.199 going to like start to probably loose every coach who 91 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.839 you you have an interest in, only to be shot down. 92 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:35.399 It just it just looks bad. And then eventually you're 93 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:38.120 gonna hire somebody like let's say it's Taylor Jenkins or 94 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.279 Mike Brown, and one of the questions that the press 95 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:43.480 conference is going to be, Hey Mike, you know, all 96 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:46.680 due respect, Hey Taylor, I'll do respect. But you know 97 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:48.959 there were reports that the next tried to get Jason Kidd, 98 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:51.240 Chris Finch, emy U Doka, on and on and on. 99 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:54.199 First like it you you like when you finally said 100 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:55.360 all on, a coach is going to look like he 101 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:59.399 was like your tenth choice. And you know there's some 102 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:01.240 really good co which is available right now who are 103 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:04.839 not under contract, who you don't have to get permission for. Like, 104 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.920 what are you doing? I'm I'm absolutely baffled by it. 105 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:11.600 I have no good explanation for it. 106 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:13.319 Yeah, because it doesn't exist. 107 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:15.360 I mean outside of the idiot who owns the team, 108 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:17.279 because this is the deal with him and has been 109 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:20.399 for twenty five freaking years. Somebody I trust back there 110 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:22.560 sent me a text earlier that said, Mike Brown's getting 111 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:24.759 the job, and if he does, that's just kind of 112 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:27.319 like okay, like you know, like it's I don't know 113 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:31.199 that Mike's a bad coach. You know, obviously he's had 114 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:34.040 stops in multiple places that have had mixed results. But 115 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:36.279 if it is Mike Brown, what's the reaction to nick 116 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:37.639 fans waiting to see who's next? 117 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:41.839 Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna try to predict how 118 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:43.800 fans are gonna react to it to a hypothetical because 119 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:45.360 we just we just don't know. I don't I don't 120 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:49.000 know who it's going to be at this stage. Mike 121 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:51.480 Brown's done some really good work. Mike Brown did not 122 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:55.839 deserve to be fired by the Sacramento Chichu. Yeah, Taylor Jenkins, 123 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:58.720 I thought did a great job with Memphis, And you know, 124 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:01.759 I I I understand in that case, like I had 125 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:04.800 heard some things about you know, you know, relations with 126 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:06.560 the locker room blah blah blah, and like he's a 127 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:09.639 little like TIBs, little old school like and after a 128 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:11.959 while you might wear out, you know, you know, your 129 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.160 voice might wear on your players, like that happens. And 130 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:17.519 I think Michael Malone had some of that too in Denver. 131 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:20.079 But you know, you get a new locker room and 132 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.759 then guys who haven't you know, heard you before, and 133 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:25.399 you get a fresh start. And like I think Taylor 134 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.319 Jenkins Mike Brown could both be great for the for 135 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:30.279 the next Michael Malone could two, but I just don't 136 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:31.959 think that they're going to go down that road, considering 137 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.040 that Malone's issues with the Nuggets front office are very 138 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:38.399 parallel to things I've heard about TIBs in the front office. 139 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:42.279 So there are good options. The good news is for 140 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:45.040 the next there are good options, and there are good 141 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.199 options who are free agents and that you don't need 142 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:48.920 permission for, and we'll see where it goes. 143 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:52.040 All right back to the finals, let's see. So for 144 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:55.000 Game three, we'll get to the Halliburton stuff in a minute. 145 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:56.560 And the piece that you wrote, which was very good 146 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:58.680 because it always is, But I'm just gonna ask you, 147 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.279 thirty thousand foot of view, what are the main differences 148 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:02.800 between Game three and Game two? 149 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:11.439 You know, it's like these are like little microscopic things 150 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:14.160 at this stage, Like I just the thunder just didn't 151 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:18.279 look as sharp for whatever reason last night, and I 152 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.920 know that they're a team that likes to play at 153 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:24.600 pace also, But I do wonder if the Pacers are 154 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.800 starting to wear them down, because the Pacers just love 155 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:30.279 to fly around, not just up and down the court, 156 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:32.800 but like you know, they're going to move the ball 157 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.800 aton within the half court and you have to expend 158 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:38.519 a lot of energy to keep catching up to the ball, 159 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:41.319 and so I just wonder if there was a little 160 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:47.160 bit of that. I don't know that there's any grand 161 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.680 conclusion to draw from last night's game. I just think 162 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:54.560 that the Pacers continually show us that there is a 163 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:57.519 lot of fight there and a lot of dimensions to 164 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:00.759 their offense because you know, they don't necessarily have dominant 165 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:06.959 individual scorers. They attack as a unit, and it's a 166 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.240 very challenging thing to deal with night in night out. 167 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:13.920 What stands out most about Rick Carlile's coaching job throughout 168 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.519 the course of not just this finals run, but throughout 169 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:18.759 the course of the postseason, and then quite frankly, if 170 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:21.439 we go back to January, you know, these are the 171 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:23.399 two best teams in the league. Since January, o case, 172 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:26.600 he has won Indiana's two and Rick, you know, won 173 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:29.839 a really odd championship in twenty eleven with the MAVs 174 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:31.920 against the Heat, and I don't think very many people 175 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:33.919 thought he was going to do that. He was doing 176 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.039 a good job with the Pistons before they decided to 177 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:38.639 get rid of him and bring in Larry Brown. So 178 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:40.360 it's not like this is the first time that we've 179 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:42.120 opened our eyes that he can really coach. 180 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:43.600 But this has been a masterclass. 181 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.759 What stands out most about his approach, his communication, whatever 182 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.080 it is to you, A lot of it's. 183 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:52.320 Just his evolution. I think he was always regarded as 184 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:54.879 as kind of, you know, you know, old school, kind 185 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:59.200 of controlling coach, and you know, he really empowered Jason 186 00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:01.440 Kidd quite a bit batter in the day with the Mavericks, 187 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:04.879 and in this case, like he's running an offense now 188 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.919 that like, I think there's some echoes of the two 189 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.919 thousand or late mid to late two thousand Phoenix Suns 190 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.399 where Halliburton is kind of like Steve Nash, a version 191 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:19.639 of where you know, he's you know, they're gonna fly 192 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:21.799 up the court. He's going to move the ball quickly, 193 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:26.240 just as Nash did. It's going to move around. There's 194 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:29.000 a lot of improvisation to it that these are not 195 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:31.399 you know a lot of set play calls. And I 196 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:33.399 think Rick, you know, as a guy who you know 197 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:36.000 obviously has been at this for decades, I think he's 198 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:38.159 given up a lot of control over time and just 199 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:41.879 trusted his players and especially his his point guards, you know, 200 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:45.200 kid in Dallas, Tyre's Halliburton now Luca and Dallas. I 201 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.320 know that things didn't end well with the two of them, 202 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.759 you know, per the reporting at the time, but I 203 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:53.279 think he's learned to just really adapt to his players 204 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.200 and to this this generation of players. 205 00:09:57.039 --> 00:09:59.080 So are you willing to say that you think Indiana 206 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:02.120 can win the championship? I mean, Vegas still favors OKAC, 207 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:05.200 I like most of the free world picked OKC in five. 208 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:06.840 Obviously that's not going to happen. 209 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:10.399 And while I'll continue to say the same thing to 210 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:12.279 me at the risk of sounded like a broken record, 211 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:14.559 I will never cheer for the Indiana Patiers. But I 212 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:18.159 am so wildly impressed at their ability to continue to 213 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:19.919 find ways to get this thing done. But do you 214 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:21.720 think they can actually do it? Can they get two 215 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:23.360 more wins and win the championship? 216 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:27.200 Yeah? I don't think we should doubt that now. I 217 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:32.720 mean they still Game one with one of their wild flurries, 218 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:34.919 right like, we're just you, We're never going away. We're 219 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:36.679 going to stay, stay at stay in it, and wait 220 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:39.639 for Halliburton to hit a miracle shot. And he's done 221 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:41.840 it so many times this postseason. But you walk away 222 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:44.639 from that game thinking, wow, like they really truly stole one. 223 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:46.919 They get thumped in game two, which is kind of 224 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:50.960 what everybody expected, and then they come home and I 225 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.559 think for most of us who have just seen a 226 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:58.360 talent gap between these teams, figured, okay, Thunder will take 227 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:00.799 back home court in game three. You know they'll they'll 228 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:04.039 win the road game, take back home court advantage, and 229 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:06.440 things will start to go more to form, and the 230 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:08.360 you know, Thunder and five will still be on the 231 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:13.039 table as all of us had predicted those are. You know, 232 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.320 it was a a definitive win last night, right, like 233 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:18.919 they didn't like thump them. It wasn't a route or anything, 234 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:21.759 but like they it was a it was a convincing 235 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:26.840 victory for the Pacers. And at this point, it's, you know, 236 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:29.759 at two to one, with another home game coming up 237 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:33.200 tomorrow night, Like we'd be foolish to dismiss the possibility 238 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.919 of the Pacers winning this series. That said, if the 239 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:38.840 Thunder win tomorrow night, now it's two two, they've taken 240 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:40.720 back home court advantage, it becomes the best of three 241 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:44.120 series with two of the three in Oklahoma. The Pacers 242 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:47.279 clearly can win anywhere, like they've won road games, important 243 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:51.159 road games, you know, every round. But I do think 244 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:53.519 a Thunder win tomorrow, depending on, you know, like how 245 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:57.639 convincing of a win it is, will probably cause everybody 246 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:01.279 to shift back towards them again if they weren't already. 247 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.279 And you know, we're always prisoners of the moment. We 248 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:06.720 always overreacted to the last thing we saw for sure. 249 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:07.440 For sure. 250 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:11.759 Now you wrote about Halliburton and the discussions and narratives 251 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:14.799 surrounding him, quite frankly all postseason long have been a 252 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.519 little bit exhausting, and you pointed out the Nash comparison. 253 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.759 He's just more Nash Er Chris Paul than he is 254 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.679 Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan or quite frankly, SGA who 255 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:25.879 has Rix said after Game two, you can just kind 256 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:29.440 of mark in his thirty thirty four or whatever. Last 257 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:32.320 night was it just more a concerted effort from him 258 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:36.240 right out of the gates was a different coverage from OKAC, 259 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:40.080 and then your thoughts on what he means to Indiana 260 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:42.840 that's just different than what SGA means to Oka. 261 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:43.240 See. 262 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:45.840 I understand the comp because there are the two stars 263 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.679 on both sides, but I just think it's a failure 264 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:51.039 to see the forest through the trees and a misunderstanding 265 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.799 of what Halliburton means to them juxtaposed to what SGA 266 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:57.440 means to OKAC. Because, as you pointed out earlier, and 267 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:01.240 Rick said again, last night, we need everybody, and last 268 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:02.399 night they got everybody. 269 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:04.200 But certainly ty Reese is the head of the snake. 270 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.080 Yeah. I mean, look, these are not perfect analogies, but 271 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.919 you know, if you had seen Chris Paul dueling James 272 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:13.960 Harden or Chris Paul against Russell Westbrook, and you know, 273 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.480 in their relative primes, and granted there's a little bit 274 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:18.240 of a generation gap there, but they they had a 275 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.720 lot of overlapping years. You'd see Westbrook putting up these 276 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:23.799 monster numbers and you'd see Chris Paul going for like, 277 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:26.759 you know, fourteen points and twelve assists or something, and 278 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.360 you know, at a glance, you'd say, well, Westbrook must 279 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.000 be the better player. Look at all these numbers he's 280 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:34.279 putting up, but Chris Paul was absolutely the better point guard. 281 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:39.080 And you know, you could cite Steve Nash or rajah 282 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:41.320 on Rondo or Jason Kidd, like there have been plenty 283 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:43.480 of great point guards who control the game with their 284 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.879 passing and their intellect and not so much and their 285 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:48.720 ability to just kind of bend the defense, but not 286 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:51.720 so much they're scoring. And that's Halliburton. And so I 287 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:53.759 think it's hard for people to process, even though we've 288 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.159 got all these other kind of versions of this over 289 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:58.519 the years. I think people see a guy like Halliburton 290 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:00.759 and like, sometimes the scoring is there and sometimes it's not. 291 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.399 And the fact is, look too in Game two, when 292 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.799 he struggled, it wasn't just that he wasn't scoring. He 293 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:07.559 you know, he finished with seventeen points, but most that 294 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:09.159 came in the fourth quarter after the game was out 295 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.000 of reach. It's also that his like assistant turnover ratio 296 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:14.919 was like six to five, which that's not controlling the game. 297 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.519 And he's he's at his best when he is, you know, 298 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:23.399 you know, making quick passes, quick decisions, getting his teammates going. 299 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.080 And I just I think he just couldn't quite figure 300 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:29.960 out where to attack, whether through the pass or through 301 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:34.440 the shot. In Game two and last night it just 302 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:37.240 looked like he found some gaps and took advantage of, 303 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.039 you know, the way the thunder were playing him. I think, 304 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:42.080 you know, I think the centers were in drop and 305 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:43.759 I think he was finding like there was that room 306 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.279 to operate between the arc and the paint a little bit. 307 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.120 Then he made some shots and I think that got 308 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.399 him going as well. You know, it was just I 309 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:59.120 think a really just it's kind of surgical performance by him, 310 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:01.360 and you know, got pretty damn close to a triple level. 311 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.200 Now it's on Mark Dagnault as to whether or not 312 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.080 he wants to adjust rotations or coverages. And the effect 313 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:10.519 of the matter is Oklahoma City has still outscored Indiana 314 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:12.159 throughout the course of the series, and they've had the 315 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.919 lead far more. But ultimately, the scoreboard says what it 316 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:18.080 says in two to one, and honestly, and I. 317 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:19.279 Could be completely wrong. 318 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:21.360 I mean I've been wrong a lot throughout the course 319 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:23.399 of the postseason. I thought Boston would be New York 320 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.440 and five, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But even 321 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:27.399 if they go down three to one, I'm not sure 322 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:29.399 that I will be convinced that Indiana can do this 323 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:33.440 until it's actually done. But tomorrow night Okase loses, that 324 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.799 just makes this mountain ten times higher. They are plus 325 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:40.799 I think seven in a very small truncated space when 326 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:44.360 Chet and Hartenstein play together, but that's been something that 327 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.120 Dagnault has decided not to do as he's starting Case 328 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:47.679 and Wallace. 329 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.919 So as we move over tomorrow. 330 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.320 Are you expecting Okase to shift anything or are they 331 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.480 just going to say, look, we're going to keep doing 332 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.360 what we've been doing because we've been historically great most 333 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:57.919 of the season. 334 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.960 That's a great question. I don't know. I don't like 335 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:09.120 there's they already changed, you know, the lineup to start 336 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.720 the series, and they've they've kind of, you can say, 337 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:14.480 stubbornly stuck with it or confidently stuck with it. They 338 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:16.200 haven't played a lot of double big like they did 339 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.679 a little bit last night. I don't have the plus 340 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:20.240 minus stuff in front of me. Maybe you do, but 341 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:24.919 like you know, it seems like they're more comfortable now 342 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:29.279 in this series going with the single big and I'm 343 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:31.480 not sure. I'm not sure you know, do you pull 344 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:34.120 another lever at this stage? Does that seem panicky? Or 345 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.000 do you do you feel like you know what? We 346 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.080 had Game one in hand but lost it. We we 347 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.960 won Game two definitively. Game three was fairly close. We've 348 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.039 we've done fine with our scheme and our our rotation. 349 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:49.960 Do we just kind of stick with it and and 350 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.120 counted a better outcome because we've got the better talent? 351 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:56.840 Like it seems like Dagnad kind of likes what he's 352 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.159 doing right now, and I would. My guess is he 353 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.279 would stick with what he's got, with what he's been doing. 354 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:04.000 But I don't know. I don't know. 355 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.680 Last question, and I realize I'm putting the cart way 356 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.079 ahead of the horse. Okay, I want to let you 357 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:11.759 know that I know what I'm about to do before 358 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:14.640 I'm about to do it. But if Indiana does this, 359 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:18.039 if Indiana actually pulls this off, and you look at 360 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.079 the bulk of their rotation with Halliburton at twenty five, 361 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:24.359 Matherin who was awesome last night at twenty two, TJ's 362 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.880 thirty three, certainly he's up there. Nemhart's twenty five, Nie 363 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.839 Smith is twenty five. Shepherd's twenty three, Siakam is thirty one, 364 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.599 but even Toppin is twenty nine. Miles Turner should not 365 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:36.359 be twenty nine. I feel like he should be forty five. 366 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:39.519 He's been around forever. But the bulk of this rotation 367 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.400 is either in the prime of their career or just entering. 368 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.519 Is it safe to say or it's not safe to say? 369 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.359 Is there anything here where if they can actually get 370 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:56.200 that done with Boston in flux New York. Clearly they 371 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.519 don't know what they're doing as far as this coaching search, 372 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.039 and there's some other teams we can throw in the mix. 373 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:02.920 But is there a chance that Indiana might be the 374 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.400 class of the East at least for a little while 375 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:06.759 if they actually pull this off? 376 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:13.599 I feel like there is. It's not just that it's 377 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:15.640 a stretch to like start jumping ahead about them winning 378 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:18.960 the championship, but more like I just think that we're 379 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.960 in a time in the NBA where like nobody can 380 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:23.359 sustain anything for very long. 381 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:24.160 You know. 382 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:26.319 I know, the thunder certainly feel like they're built that way. 383 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.200 The Pacers, as you just laid out, seem to be 384 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.039 built to last for a while. Things just change so 385 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:34.519 fast in this league. And like, yeah, we're about to 386 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:36.160 get what's you know, more or less a gap year 387 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.480 from the Celtics, right, you know, they win a championship, 388 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.920 they fall short this time. Tatum's out for a year 389 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:47.519 with the Achilles, And like, I think it's safe to 390 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:49.559 say that the East next season is going to feel 391 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:53.680 wide open on October twenty fourth or whatever opening night is. 392 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:55.720 But a lot of it's going to depend on, like, 393 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:57.480 you know, all right, what do the next do with 394 00:18:57.480 --> 00:18:59.440 their coaching search? And do they you know, do they 395 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.480 hold onto this core? Do they make some adjustments? Is 396 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:07.279 Cleveland holding on to its its primary cores? Does Orlando 397 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:09.559 finally get a point guard to go with their two stars? 398 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:12.240 And could that launch them into the mix in the East? 399 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:15.720 Is Yanna staying because it's starting to feel like maybe 400 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.759 he's staying. I mean it's been a lot of weeks 401 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:21.000