Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 4: I you?
Speaker 5: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. We are joined today by
Speaker 5: Peter Gray, who is the shit now. I can't even
Speaker 5: open the thing, of course, I'm sorry, Peter, but you
Speaker 5: are ocultist, magician, sorcerer of summer now quite a bit
Speaker 5: and Scarlett Imprint is a major publishing press, probably the biggest,
Speaker 5: probably the most well known, and I think, well, I'm
Speaker 5: just going to say the works that I distinctly remember,
Speaker 5: since I can't actually open the tab for your author's
Speaker 5: buyer right now, but the what I did in prep
Speaker 5: for this episode was read at least a little of
Speaker 5: Lucifer Princeps, which is your book from twenty fifteen, as
Speaker 5: well as Lucifer Praxis, which is your newest book from
Speaker 5: twenty twenty five. I think it's very ionic, very interesting.
Speaker 5: I also listen to your great episode from October with
Speaker 5: Gordon White, and I know that you have written extensively
Speaker 5: on the Babylon and Babylon workings with your partner Alkiste Alkisi.
Speaker 5: I hope I said that correctly, okus, see, thank you,
Speaker 5: and so I'm really excited. I know everybody is really excited.
Speaker 5: I'm a little nervous, so I apologize, but you know,
Speaker 5: I think this will be really generative and really interesting,
Speaker 5: especially because we have been speaking as a show. Not
Speaker 5: it's not my show, but I think in general and
Speaker 5: all the shows offshoot from Rejects have been speaking on
Speaker 5: ionic current satic work, and I think to sort of
Speaker 5: uncover the Lucifer current is probably the most occulted. I
Speaker 5: think Peter has spoken this about this extensively, but the
Speaker 5: most occulted of all. So, uh, you got you can, Peter.
Speaker 5: You can say anything you want to say about your
Speaker 5: own work and introduce yourself in the ways that you
Speaker 5: would like to. But thank you so much and from
Speaker 5: all of us, and I'll just say it like that,
Speaker 5: And obviously Nick please introduce yourself and plug your show.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you very much.
Speaker 6: I appreciate you doing the intro jin again, I appreciate it.
Speaker 6: I'm not I don't enjoy doing them myself. So yeah,
Speaker 6: the Cult, Rejects, Bitch You, Rumble YouTube, and all major podcasts,
Speaker 6: What Doio podcast?
Speaker 4: Thank you everybody for joining. This is very exciting.
Speaker 6: Uh yeah, I'm really happy that we got both of
Speaker 6: them on and uh, yeah, I guess Sabrina, if you
Speaker 6: want to go next, let everybody know what's going on
Speaker 6: with you, and.
Speaker 7: Sure I did not expect to go first, but yeah,
Speaker 7: let's do it. Hi everyone, I'm really excited to see
Speaker 7: so many people here. I'm super excited for this conversation.
Speaker 7: For those of you who don't know me, I am
Speaker 7: a terror reader, life coach, and professional witchy person. I've
Speaker 7: got five books out now, to podcasts, Secrets of a
Speaker 7: Which podcast and the Heal and Harm Show. I just
Speaker 7: interviewed Nick for my first episode, so super excited about
Speaker 7: that and really stoked to be here with some really
Speaker 7: amazing people. Big fan of Scarlett Imprint and what they're doing,
Speaker 7: so if anyone watching does.
Speaker 8: Not know their work, check it out.
Speaker 2: It's super awesome.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, thank you very much, Sabrina. I definitely appreciate
Speaker 6: you making it And Ethan Indigo what is going on?
Speaker 4: So well.
Speaker 1: Honored to be here with you guys.
Speaker 9: I can wait to hear the discussion and be involved
Speaker 9: in communicating. Appreciate everyone. Ethan Indigo Smith easy easy to
Speaker 9: find online, writer, author and observer and easy to find
Speaker 9: online if anyone wants to communicate.
Speaker 4: Awesome. Thank you. And Matt Mora, what is going on? Buddy,
Speaker 4: glad you made it?
Speaker 10: What is up? Happy to be here again?
Speaker 11: How's this food today? So I am at Mara. You
Speaker 11: can always find me as at Matt Mora nineteen. That's
Speaker 11: going to be on Twitter, YouTube, TikTok uh, Twitch, fi
Speaker 11: maybe some other place. And there's also my website that's
Speaker 11: gonna be Cabala dot com. That's ab a lah dot com.
Speaker 11: There are or spaces we do on x and you
Speaker 11: can always find the archives at the True Gray Lodge
Speaker 11: dot com with a V so true. And like I said,
Speaker 11: in the latest months, I'm working more now on some
Speaker 11: Tarot stuff, some really interesting projects. On my pin to
Speaker 11: your post, we can learn a little bit more, but
Speaker 11: also can dm me.
Speaker 1: It's going to be a.
Speaker 11: Beta tester of sorts. So yeah you're curious, just dm
Speaker 11: me on any of these platforms.
Speaker 10: Happy to be.
Speaker 4: Here, yeah, happy to have you here, brother, and the
Speaker 4: headless Giant himself. What is going on? So please let
Speaker 4: everybody know what you deal is and all the things
Speaker 4: you got going on.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 12: I'm really proud of myself because I am muted this time.
Speaker 12: I don't often do that, so you can find me
Speaker 12: at the Headless Giant podcast at gmail dot com. If
Speaker 12: you have any sort of esotera or strain stories that
Speaker 12: you want to share, are Strange Dreams even and me
Speaker 12: and Nick will read those on Thursday, so check that out.
Speaker 12: And also if you want to see my alchemy show,
Speaker 12: that would be on Mondays with Arrows Up and check
Speaker 12: that one out as well. And Tuesdays we do seven
Speaker 12: seven seven the Cabbala of Alisair Crowley with Nick. So
Speaker 12: also I have the Sunday Trialogus with Ethan Indigo and
Speaker 12: at some point during the week, probably Wednesdays now, we're
Speaker 12: going to be doing more rust at Gods, so check
Speaker 12: that out as well.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Yes, I do think I don't want to be missing
Speaker 6: it up, but I do think Jewels was planning on
Speaker 6: doing that tonight, possibly with you, So yeah, look forward
Speaker 6: to that. I think I'll be able to jump on
Speaker 6: actually too. That's all I much to add. But yeah,
Speaker 6: and we got Brandon Lee Magas in the media. Thank
Speaker 6: you so much, Bud. I'm really happy to have you
Speaker 6: like here being a part of us. So please let
Speaker 6: everybody know what is up with you and where they
Speaker 6: can find all your amazing work.
Speaker 3: So thank you Nick, Thank you everyone for having me on.
Speaker 3: I am Brandon Lee of Megas in the media, where
Speaker 3: we break down myth, magic and meaning in the stories
Speaker 3: that we and you love. Find me on All the
Speaker 3: Things x TikTok, Instagram, YouTube's the big one. Go there,
Speaker 3: watch all the things. I love stories and i love media,
Speaker 3: and I'm here to show the world that magic is everywhere,
Speaker 3: from dark sorcery to the light and we can build
Speaker 3: ourselves up together.
Speaker 10: I'm really excited.
Speaker 3: Obviously, we've all heard of Peter Gray and now I've
Speaker 3: now heard of his lovely wife, and so I'm really
Speaker 3: excited for this conversation.
Speaker 10: Let's get to it.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you very much for coming to operate it.
Speaker 4: Really appreciate it.
Speaker 13: It.
Speaker 6: Finally, to the guests, I guess Peter Baby, if you
Speaker 6: want to go first, please introduce yourselves and let everybody
Speaker 6: know you know kind of what your deal is and
Speaker 6: what you would like to advertise a plug.
Speaker 1: Sure that was a perfect intro from Jim Wiskull in Print,
Speaker 1: with a this is the trouble I have to deal
Speaker 1: with it. So I'm a writer and the cultist. We're
Speaker 1: in a publishing company called Scarlet Imprint. Otherwise I am
Speaker 1: absent online apart from a sub stack the my normal
Speaker 1: published writing. Yeah, and it's just a pleasure to meet
Speaker 1: this white selection of crazy.
Speaker 14: He's also a mountain biker, only does lots of other
Speaker 14: things too.
Speaker 11: He's not just.
Speaker 4: That was that was so cute.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was just thinking, I hope one day I
Speaker 6: have somebody do that for me like that was that
Speaker 6: was really sweet.
Speaker 15: Well, there's something interesting is that your life is your
Speaker 15: great work in a way, So you know, all the
Speaker 15: components that go into Peter's life obviously support him as
Speaker 15: a magician.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The physical practice is a very important part of what
Speaker 1: I do so well. Although it's you know, kind of
Speaker 1: one of those one of those fun things what people
Speaker 1: do outside of magic, it's not really an outside of magion.
Speaker 14: Yeah, it's still part of the flow.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: I had mentioned that recently with Sabrina when we were
Speaker 6: talking about like kind of being you know into I
Speaker 6: guess working out or whatever, being being trying to stay
Speaker 6: and fit while you're doing this stuff. And I had
Speaker 6: even wondered like some like for me working out. At
Speaker 6: some point I realized, like when I'm doing my stuff.
Speaker 6: I'm really not paying attention. I'm almost in a flow
Speaker 6: state kind of to an extent. And I wonder if
Speaker 6: that's uh, that's like an intriguing thing from magicians too,
Speaker 6: to start finding things to get into, you know, it's uh,
Speaker 6: I think it's a plus. I think it helps strengthen
Speaker 6: that type of practice. I don't know if that's maybe
Speaker 6: your thoughts as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't rely on between the two. Like, the
Speaker 1: body is the fundamental magical tool that we have, so
Speaker 1: prepare working with. That magical tool is important for everything.
Speaker 1: So it's very easy online for people to talk talk
Speaker 1: a lot of shit about like their magical accomplishments or
Speaker 1: how amazing they are a sex magical or whatever else,
Speaker 1: and it's like, bro, you don't even lift you know.
Speaker 8: Bro, that just literally what we were literally talking about.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think Jim Ratt magic people, I think is
Speaker 7: something that's more need to get into, like for so
Speaker 7: many reasons. So I love that. And Peter, you were
Speaker 7: talking about mountain biking or I'll kiss you said that,
Speaker 7: Peter does mountain biking, Like, does that get you into
Speaker 7: a bit of that meditative flow state as well?
Speaker 1: Yeah, blow states kind of critical with all the things
Speaker 1: I do. So yeah, I'm essentially hunting flow state with
Speaker 1: and with the least interference microve as possible. So I
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time living in the mountains and
Speaker 1: riding bikes, and I spent a lot of time in
Speaker 1: the ocean here. So yeah, it's a lot of time.
Speaker 1: It's a missing part of magical practice. I think even
Speaker 1: basically yoga has formed out of a lot of the
Speaker 1: men's magical practice. All the things which were which was
Speaker 1: seen as kind of developing the superpowers in the body,
Speaker 1: which was the initial impact that we had from kind
Speaker 1: of the return of Empire and the Indian approaches to
Speaker 1: yoga coming across, and they've dropped out a lot. I
Speaker 1: think people have become far too, far too in their
Speaker 1: heads about things.
Speaker 14: I don't know, because do you see much more people
Speaker 14: talking about the body now? When we started, we found
Speaker 14: that it wasn't everyone was arguing over the me news,
Speaker 14: shy of Crowley or whatever. And I think a lot
Speaker 14: of that shifted, partly through our work and partly through
Speaker 14: other people's work, but also being pushing a more body
Speaker 14: centered understanding of magic, understanding that we're working through this
Speaker 14: from this point rather than it just happens to be
Speaker 14: like the meat sack. This is a time I hate
Speaker 14: so much because the body is so incredible. My background
Speaker 14: is as a dancer before it became whatever it is
Speaker 14: I do now in Scolar imprint and which is like
Speaker 14: one hundred jobs. But I approached magic. I came into
Speaker 14: magic from a background, non magical in a way like
Speaker 14: I had, I had experience in there's some Eastern modalities
Speaker 14: like chigong and so on. But at dance, Yeah, what am.
Speaker 2: I talking about?
Speaker 14: I just wanted to say I kind of approached it
Speaker 14: from a different angle and found that everybody was stuck
Speaker 14: in their heads and arguing over peopeople's words. And the
Speaker 14: words are really the least important thing. They're really what
Speaker 14: you kind of try to drag out of the dream
Speaker 14: state or the magical state, when you're in ritual, when
Speaker 14: you're in a when you're possessed, or you're incorporating as
Speaker 14: like the word Gordon uses for possession, you know, trying
Speaker 14: to get across that barrier, bringing something out of that
Speaker 14: space that you can communicate that kind of serves as
Speaker 14: an anchor or even a kind of you know, something
Speaker 14: you bring that can allow you access and so words
Speaker 14: of that. If they're successful, they're not about showing off
Speaker 14: how clever you are or how accomplished you are. That's
Speaker 14: really like that's between you and your soul. Really, that
Speaker 14: has like a fock call to do with what we're
Speaker 14: talking about, the least interesting thing of magic.
Speaker 4: Something I want to stop full stop. I hate, I
Speaker 4: hate to keep going back.
Speaker 6: I guess this whole flow state thing, it's just just
Speaker 6: doesn't intrigue me. But you know, I was even it
Speaker 6: was even like kind of looking at it, like I
Speaker 6: was saying it to Sabrina two one. I was on
Speaker 6: the show a few days ago that, like even with
Speaker 6: David Lynch and his transcendental meditation, the way he explains
Speaker 6: it and how he says what he would get out
Speaker 6: of it, I do wonder, like, you know, like is
Speaker 6: it that flow state that like you end up like
Speaker 6: getting those ideas you know, like when.
Speaker 4: You're can you hope losing a problem when they can't
Speaker 4: hear me? Is there does that ever happen to you?
Speaker 6: Like when you're out out doing your stuff, riding your bike,
Speaker 6: doing your things, well, like ideas pop into your head
Speaker 6: that you go with.
Speaker 4: I don't think they can hear me.
Speaker 10: Yeah, they can't hear you.
Speaker 4: You might have to leave and come back. This is
Speaker 4: so weird. This happened the last guest we had.
Speaker 10: Can you hear the rest of us? There, Peter? Can
Speaker 10: you hear any of us? Can you? Can you guys
Speaker 10: hear us?
Speaker 9: Doesn't sound like.
Speaker 10: Yeah, you might have to drop out and come back.
Speaker 9: I can't hear you.
Speaker 6: I'm gonna throw it up on the screen to make.
Speaker 10: It a well.
Speaker 16: I'm reminded of an expression that I know from Taishi,
Speaker 16: but I'm sure it's available more broadly, and certainly it's
Speaker 16: applicable more broadly. The idea that the way you do
Speaker 16: one thing is how you do everything. Yeah, like putting
Speaker 16: magic into what seems like even mundane weightlifting, or putting
Speaker 16: you know, a quality mindset into the things you do,
Speaker 16: or enabling the flow state into washing dishes.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, nice, Yeah, Ethan, I complete agree.
Speaker 10: Kung fu right, kung fu?
Speaker 3: Gung fu The term actually means times all right, and
Speaker 3: so it's like you don't just have gung fu in
Speaker 3: your like wushu or Marshall practice, you have gung fu
Speaker 3: in everything you do, like washing dishes. Figuring out how
Speaker 3: to do gardening. You know, anything you do at all
Speaker 3: times through mastery is yeah, kung fu, I completely, Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's exactly, and that's magic. And that's the difference between
Speaker 3: like for some reason, the West seem to like separate
Speaker 3: things or the East integrates their embodied practice with their
Speaker 3: magical practice.
Speaker 10: Yeah, you know much more.
Speaker 9: We select to distinguish and separate things in the West
Speaker 9: a lot more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think of the flow state is exactly
Speaker 3: what you're getting into when you're doing your ceremonial magic.
Speaker 3: I find that with I studied I've studied Chinese martial
Speaker 3: arts for like twenty years now, and it's one of
Speaker 3: those things where I think there is no difference between
Speaker 3: my my kung fu practice and my magical practice. Obviously
Speaker 3: there's differences in.
Speaker 10: The way you go about it.
Speaker 3: But as I perform, like say hung Aar, your southern
Speaker 3: style of shoo in stuff, it's like you have an opening.
Speaker 3: You're saluting the each each corners, you know, east, south, northwest,
Speaker 3: and you're doing a certain breathing practice. Your organs are
Speaker 3: becoming alive as then you are taking on the profile
Speaker 3: and the orientation of certain animals as you go through
Speaker 3: these things. So it's a yeah, I'm continually trying to
Speaker 3: teach my student because it's like my students, because I
Speaker 3: teach during the day. I do private lessons with all
Speaker 3: sorts of martial arts, but the kung fu is the
Speaker 3: embedded are.
Speaker 10: I do teach on gar Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting is that my students, even though they
Speaker 3: don't know it, they're they're becoming warrior magicians, even though
Speaker 3: they're thinking they're just learning, you know, they're just learning
Speaker 3: martial arts.
Speaker 10: It's like, well, no, not really.
Speaker 3: I'm integrating the middle path and these different paths like
Speaker 3: into your body. You can actually help it because it's
Speaker 3: like it becomes everything you do. And then back to
Speaker 3: the taichi thing, It's like taichi is philosophy and action.
Speaker 10: It is everything.
Speaker 3: All the tai chi practice is embodied within the philosophy itself.
Speaker 2: Mostly.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess now that you guys can hear me.
Speaker 6: I had wanted to ask before before you lost a connection.
Speaker 6: You know, I know we were talking about the flow
Speaker 6: state and stuff.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 6: I mentioned David Lynch earlier, and you know, I dig
Speaker 6: into his stuff and he would talk about transcendental meditation
Speaker 6: and he would talk about how he would go to
Speaker 6: that state and you would get ideas almost, so you
Speaker 6: know that's where you know there's I guess tapping into something.
Speaker 6: Would you say that maybe like sometimes like that would
Speaker 6: be the same thing, like when you're doing like your
Speaker 6: physical stuff, like when you're riding your bike, could you
Speaker 6: find yourself kind of like in that state and then
Speaker 6: all of a sudden the idea pops into your head
Speaker 6: and you end up going with it when you get
Speaker 6: home or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Generally a sense rather than something poking in I think.
Speaker 1: I think that what Lynch is doing is crazy. Really
Speaker 1: one of the most important things, which is crazing your
Speaker 1: feedback late between the unconscious and the conscious mind, if
Speaker 1: you want to use those terms. So he's finding something
Speaker 1: in dream and then he's bringing it out of the
Speaker 1: dream and he's developing it, and then he's going back
Speaker 1: and is continuing to build. And you see that with
Speaker 1: the work of successful magicians. So if you look at
Speaker 1: someone like Andrew Chulmley, I'm not a huge fan of
Speaker 1: his work, but what he did very effectively was he
Speaker 1: was able to create a set of feedback lips with
Speaker 1: his unconscious and build an entire entire world out of
Speaker 1: it in the way in the way that Lynch.
Speaker 7: I've got a question actually around the flow state, Peter.
Speaker 7: I love your writing so beautiful and lyrical. I was
Speaker 7: just curious what your writing process is like and how
Speaker 7: the flow state factors factors into that for you.
Speaker 8: If it does.
Speaker 1: Sure writing his Hell, it's it's a it's a completely
Speaker 1: impossible task. It has no financial reward.
Speaker 4: Everybody says that, everybody.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's obsessive, compulsive, maddening. The way my process
Speaker 1: works is I'll often get an image or or a
Speaker 1: line will come through to me, and then I'll develop
Speaker 1: from that. So very often I'll I'll you know, I
Speaker 1: work I work with, So I'll work with you know,
Speaker 1: a mask, and I'll constantly beat, jotting notes and pieces
Speaker 1: in that, and I'll have sentences and fragments and then
Speaker 1: I'll bring them all together and things will emerge from that.
Speaker 1: But my process, yeah, my process is I pursue those
Speaker 1: things which are interesting to me, and I returned to
Speaker 1: I begin with inspiration, and I return to two cortex.
Speaker 1: I returned to the original sources of everything I possibly can.
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time, a lot of time
Speaker 1: on work, like a preposterous amount of time. And I'm
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not the only writer that has this problem.
Speaker 1: So been writing them and writing a piece of substanct
Speaker 1: for about a month and a half now, which has
Speaker 1: probably cost me several one hundred pounds in terms of
Speaker 1: like the folks that have had to order down, how's
Speaker 1: a pointless research.
Speaker 10: Read there for substat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for substant I've read all of the biographies of
Speaker 1: Malcolm Lowry, I've read all of his novels, and about
Speaker 1: this much will actually appear in the text. Because what
Speaker 1: you find with writing is that the writers that are interesting,
Speaker 1: each word is holographic, and so the weight and the
Speaker 1: information that's behind the word, if you've done the work,
Speaker 1: is still available there as a termer for the reader
Speaker 1: to access. So so it's a constant it's a constant
Speaker 1: folding in. Sometimes my process is very easy, and I
Speaker 1: can write very fluidly and produce material pretty quickly. But
Speaker 1: generally for me, a good writing session I have I
Speaker 1: have four hours of writing in me before I'm done,
Speaker 1: Like that's that's the maximum that I can do in
Speaker 1: the single session general. And then and then I can't
Speaker 1: I generally can't get more than that out during the day.
Speaker 1: But yeah, writing it's a it's an obsessive it's an
Speaker 1: obsessive madness with the reward. The reward is the work.
Speaker 7: Well, it's beautiful to read despite the hardship that goes
Speaker 7: into it.
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 3: Just a quick thing is that Alan Morey actually says
Speaker 3: that exact same thing about ideas and how to write,
Speaker 3: is that he starts with an idea and then from
Speaker 3: that idea it gets a sentence down, and then all
Speaker 3: of a sudden it starts to expand itself forward and
Speaker 3: then yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and if it doesn't, then it's not
Speaker 1: a thing. I mean, you never know when you start off.
Speaker 1: It could be a sentence, it could be a paragraph,
Speaker 1: it could be a chapter, it could be a book,
Speaker 1: it could be anything. So you know, you just have
Speaker 1: to you just have to keep writing things down.
Speaker 12: I mean.
Speaker 1: The other critical thing is that, like when you have
Speaker 1: an idea, you have to write it down otherwise.
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: I pick up my phone and all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: I just yell into it and I'm like, please don't
Speaker 3: forget this is you need to remember for me?
Speaker 10: Okay, put it down.
Speaker 17: Yeah, one of the interesting things I've I've found with
Speaker 17: the occult genre is that a lot of a lot
Speaker 17: of books in the same sort of field are all
Speaker 17: referencing back to the same materials.
Speaker 12: But then there's that one author who's just referencing stuff
Speaker 12: that is completely off of the wall, and you have
Speaker 12: to look up his references just to figure out where
Speaker 12: his head is at when he's talking about these other things.
Speaker 12: We've been noticing that a lot with Crowley in seven
Speaker 12: seven seven, he's, you know, he's he's citing all this
Speaker 12: stuff and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere,
Speaker 12: he's got the citation that's, you know, just completely left field.
Speaker 12: Have you ever found any really interesting gems from these
Speaker 12: occult authors that you never would have found without their
Speaker 12: sort of special way of looking at the world.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all I really love about Chroole is
Speaker 1: that he has a renaissance man approach, so he assumes
Speaker 1: that the magician will be a fully rounded individual with
Speaker 1: an understanding of science literature, like at the cutting edge
Speaker 1: of the day. That the problem is when people get
Speaker 1: trapped in the idea that they simply have to read
Speaker 1: the text that Chlole read because very often you find
Speaker 1: that they're completely out of date, they're full of erroneous information,
Speaker 1: and they just trap you in a back abby because
Speaker 1: they haven't moved on. So it's I like to try
Speaker 1: and encourage people to read more widely outside of the occult.
Speaker 1: It's very common for me to find people who who
Speaker 1: have a phenomenal occult library, but they read nothing else
Speaker 1: outside of that. That that results in very very stunted
Speaker 1: human beings. The aime of magic isn't stunted human beings.
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to say that's beautiful because even in Kraley,
Speaker 3: it's interesting how many people say they've read Croley and
Speaker 3: then don't realize in the beginning, Croley always gives you
Speaker 3: read all these books before you even start the path,
Speaker 3: write about anatomy, about philosophy, about the classics, and then
Speaker 3: it's like people just throw that part away and then
Speaker 3: go instantly into the to the meditation Prona Yama, and
Speaker 3: then like they try to perform ceremony. And as Croley
Speaker 3: states it, it's like you need to first understand that
Speaker 3: any of your visions or anything that you have in
Speaker 3: these states are actually hogwash and you need to think
Speaker 3: objectively about these things, write them down, understand that there
Speaker 3: they are part of your journey. But you you know,
Speaker 3: that's how we get obsession, That's how all of a
Speaker 3: sudden we go crazy and you get the wanderers lost
Speaker 3: in the desert.
Speaker 6: That is something from my own experience. I'm not knocking
Speaker 6: like I guess the whole order, just my experience. When
Speaker 6: I was in the Oto, I thought it was kind
Speaker 6: of weird how everybody just basically just like read Crowley's
Speaker 6: work and that was it. I was like, you don't
Speaker 6: read anybody else's stuff.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 6: I was just like you got to hear somebody else's
Speaker 6: opinion or other things or I don't know. And one
Speaker 6: thing that I thought was really and myself included, I
Speaker 6: was part of this too, until, like you know, until
Speaker 6: I just started having weird magical experiences, I really didn't
Speaker 6: look at like a lot of the broader things like
Speaker 6: the physiology and other stuff that I do think is
Speaker 6: my opinion, I keep saying it.
Speaker 4: I'll have maybe you guys will be a little bit
Speaker 4: different on this.
Speaker 6: Almost anybody I've asked that's been on the show, I say,
Speaker 6: I do think Aleseter Crowley was writing about the eyeballs
Speaker 6: and the brains in certain ways, or he was pointing
Speaker 6: to it. A lot of people don't agree with me
Speaker 6: on that, but I do think physiology is possibly in
Speaker 6: his work. A lot of the Gnostic Saints are other
Speaker 6: people that he even was influenced by. If you read
Speaker 6: their stuff, they're drawing eyeballs and brains. You know, Robert
Speaker 6: Flood even Johanna's coupler and he's drawing eyeballs.
Speaker 4: I mean, you have.
Speaker 6: I do think when you start looking at people on
Speaker 6: the Renaissance, they incorporated so many different things just besides
Speaker 6: what we're just saying here now, and I feel like
Speaker 6: that has been lost, like hugely.
Speaker 4: I don't know what happened.
Speaker 6: Was there like a schism, We're all of sudden just
Speaker 6: the occult of magic was just real easy, and.
Speaker 4: They forgot about everything else.
Speaker 6: I don't know, but I do think, like what you
Speaker 6: said that was a real good point that all that
Speaker 6: stuff is I kind of left out.
Speaker 1: Yep, because of our education. Sorry, so education has collapsed,
Speaker 1: so people are starting from a much lower base. When
Speaker 1: you look at Chroley, he was like an Oxbridge graduate.
Speaker 1: It was you know, he was genius level. But the
Speaker 1: problem with Crowley is as a result of him being
Speaker 1: at a genius level and producing this materialist it's it's
Speaker 1: very likely that if you're in a structure like Oto
Speaker 1: and you will simply attempt to reproduce what it meant
Speaker 1: to be Chrow and you end up with a lot
Speaker 1: of people who are lesser versions of that obviously are
Speaker 1: not you know, I'm not throwing shade at the entire
Speaker 1: It's one of one of the gaps that people fall
Speaker 1: into is they end up trying to replicate the master
Speaker 1: and we're no longer there, Like, we're in a completely
Speaker 1: different world, and we have such a breadth of information
Speaker 1: which is available to us and the ability to to
Speaker 1: to read an access book. So let's let's even just
Speaker 1: look at magic. So when I started studying magic, the
Speaker 1: Internet wasn't really a thing, Like, it wasn't functioning. So
Speaker 1: that the way that you've got books on magic was
Speaker 1: you went into suspicious second hand bookshops and you asked
Speaker 1: to look at the books that were hidden behind the
Speaker 1: shelf and see if they'd hand them to you, and
Speaker 1: you bought stuff widely around them because you were unable
Speaker 1: to get hold of the specific text you were looking for.
Speaker 1: So you ended up with quite an eclectic reading. You know,
Speaker 1: you couldn't go, I'm just going to read Crowley, you go,
Speaker 1: they have an expense paperback in there's nothing else. Well,
Speaker 1: I'll read some Muspensky. They have some Gurje, I'll read
Speaker 1: some Gerjeff. You know, you know I have to read
Speaker 1: some Funfortune. I mean, yeah, so you ended up you
Speaker 1: ended up getting this this kind of this are broad
Speaker 1: discover the kind of like introduction to it. And also
Speaker 1: because you didn't have such access to the material, it
Speaker 1: meant that you would work with an individual book for longer.
Speaker 1: And you know, perhaps the best exponent for that would
Speaker 1: be would be Jake Strand and Kent and the way
Speaker 1: that he spent you know, decade decades just working with
Speaker 1: various bats of the true grimoire. There's bits of Grimory
Speaker 1: and Viren, and because of the limitations that have been
Speaker 1: imposed upon him, he was able to gain a lot
Speaker 1: more from the text than someone who was simply going
Speaker 1: this week kind of a veteran, a Buddhist this week
Speaker 1: kind of practitioner.
Speaker 14: All the grim was and obsessively, I mean, there is
Speaker 14: use in that it's just when you're working, it really
Speaker 14: helps to be so focused on the thing you're doing,
Speaker 14: not like just collect.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you're saying, is magic's not just Pokemon cards.
Speaker 3: You're not just gotta gotta catch them all.
Speaker 14: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I find that story Brenning. Sorry, Peter.
Speaker 5: I just I found that point very profound because I've
Speaker 5: heard you, Peter speak on like the creation of books
Speaker 5: as sort of like an art practice, and you know,
Speaker 5: it's a physicality. It's physical media. It's in the rawhou
Speaker 5: in the dragon, it's not in the kettoo, in the
Speaker 5: digital or in the subtle, And so I think it's
Speaker 5: profound in the sense that in my experience, like I'm
Speaker 5: I'm a Vagoriana Buddhist. I don't think you knew that
Speaker 5: and when you said it, but as a ton Trick,
Speaker 5: I just feel like that is the true sort of
Speaker 5: axis of sodna, is to like really focus on the
Speaker 5: one mandola that you're doing and not be tempted by
Speaker 5: all the other empowerments practices. But I also like to,
Speaker 5: as you mentioned earlier, like keep your mind open, like
Speaker 5: read left hand path text, read your text on Lucifer,
Speaker 5: read the works on Babylon, because it's very similar. I'm
Speaker 5: not saying it's the same, but there is there is
Speaker 5: a similar current. I think that all of the magic
Speaker 5: quote unquote, the whole canon touches on at least a
Speaker 5: little bit. So I had actually an interesting I hope
Speaker 5: it's interesting, a follow up to something we discussed earlier,
Speaker 5: which was the mountain So in the Lucifer practice book,
Speaker 5: you refer to sort of the Northwest Semitic, but you
Speaker 5: also refer to other kinds of regional ideas in the
Speaker 5: North in that sort of area of the mountain gods
Speaker 5: or of the mountain god maybe I don't know, you
Speaker 5: can or the mountain angel.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's a better way to say it.
Speaker 5: So I just I want I wanted to know, like,
Speaker 5: how do you sort of identify Lucifer living in the UK.
Speaker 5: If you do, do you see him as sort of
Speaker 5: a mountain god or apotheosis of like mountain This is
Speaker 5: a very interesting idea.
Speaker 2: In contra It's like the is the sort of worldly.
Speaker 5: Bi ravar or the worldly king can then raise himself
Speaker 5: up to become the pinnacle of the mountain of the Mandola.
Speaker 5: So I wonder if you see Lucifer in a similar
Speaker 5: way like a sort of impulse, as Gordon said, but
Speaker 5: I would call it a current myself, but a sort
Speaker 5: of like a rising force two that can like appear
Speaker 5: on the carnal ground. I know that's not your language,
Speaker 5: but and then arise to the sort of higher than heaven.
Speaker 2: Maybe you could.
Speaker 1: Say sure, And I gave I gave a lecture this
Speaker 1: year culture which Culture Sue, which will answer this question
Speaker 1: more broadly talking about Highwai orientate my work in the land.
Speaker 1: One thing I did when I wrote Practice was although
Speaker 1: it's a personal book, I didn't want to I didn't
Speaker 1: want to overdetermine for people and bring into much of
Speaker 1: my own personal experience. I wanted to keep it open.
Speaker 1: So locating Lucifer in England is quite easy for me,
Speaker 1: firstly because this Practice shows the real explosion and the
Speaker 1: modern form of Lisa that we have emerged, firstly in
Speaker 1: sixteen sixty seven of the publication of Paradise Lost, and
Speaker 1: then with the actions of the French Revolution in seventeen
Speaker 1: eighty nine, and the modern form of Lucifer coming forth
Speaker 1: from these influences, which then informed the English line of
Speaker 1: prophecy in the Romantic poets. So the Romantic poets continued
Speaker 1: the process that you find in the Bible, but they
Speaker 1: were writing from the other side of it. So Shelley
Speaker 1: in particular, but also Byron Blake, all of them had
Speaker 1: had their inputs in it, and they were they were
Speaker 1: dealing with in England that they were seeing as the
Speaker 1: new seat of prophecy. So they were they were transposing
Speaker 1: the Biblical landscape onto the English landscape. You see that
Speaker 1: with and and did those feet Blake's poem Jerusalem where
Speaker 1: he asks and did those feed nation time on England's
Speaker 1: mountains green. So he's he's taking the Biblical jurissm and
Speaker 1: he's translocating it into England, and he's turning England into
Speaker 1: the place where the new revelation will appear. And so
Speaker 1: the question I asked after that in my oculture talk
Speaker 1: as well, if Jerusalem can be transposed to England, then
Speaker 1: so too can the shadow of Jerusalem. So the other
Speaker 1: side of it, the Luciferian side of it, can also
Speaker 1: be found in the English landscape. And the fallen angels,
Speaker 1: and the fallen angels when you see them in the
Speaker 1: in the Biblical in the Biblical lands were very much
Speaker 1: associated with the with the Bronze agents Stone Age monuments,
Speaker 1: so the Dolmen in particular, the houses of the spirits,
Speaker 1: the houses of the ancient and mighty dead. So where
Speaker 1: I live in Cornwall is a giant bronze and stone
Speaker 1: Age graveyard. I mean it's it's the number of tombs
Speaker 1: and structures and suffness we have here standing stone circles
Speaker 1: is off the charts. So we live in a we
Speaker 1: live in a place which has been associated with the
Speaker 1: fallen angels. There's the people try to tell new stories
Speaker 1: about a land whose stories have been forgotten. So the
Speaker 1: very earliest, the very earliest people who lived here that
Speaker 1: in the in the in the Stone Age, we don't
Speaker 1: know their stories, but we have there, we have their homes,
Speaker 1: we have them and we have them for mountaintops. So
Speaker 1: there's there's a whole very sacred part of Cornwall called
Speaker 1: Belarium that I've written about before, which is mainly made
Speaker 1: up of granite. And because it's made up grante, which
Speaker 1: is a very hard walk, it means that a lot
Speaker 1: of these monuments have survived. So it's possible for me
Speaker 1: to work in the landscape on mountains with the with
Speaker 1: the homes and the beings of the mighty dead in
Speaker 1: the currents of the earth. So my lucifer work is
Speaker 1: transploted into the landscape line.
Speaker 10: Mm hmm. That's fascinating. I have a question, so does
Speaker 10: that do you have the idea?
Speaker 3: So the idea of Lucifer, you know, and especially in Milton,
Speaker 3: being the fallen one, but also being synonymous with the snake,
Speaker 3: and as.
Speaker 10: That idea of begiving.
Speaker 3: Eve the apple and that self awakening, so it doesn't
Speaker 3: have to be the idea of giving Eve the apple
Speaker 3: and that means she, you know, passed in along and
Speaker 3: the whole exoteric variation of the Bible and that kind
Speaker 3: of thing. It comes to me that Lucifer's technology kind
Speaker 3: of idea that it gave us self consciousness, It gave
Speaker 3: us the ability to see good and evil and become
Speaker 3: gods ourselves. And so is that one of those things
Speaker 3: where your understanding of that Luciferic current, especially in the
Speaker 3: place they are in, gives you the ability to then
Speaker 3: tap into the currents of the land so you can
Speaker 3: remember this style of mythology and then put it into
Speaker 3: your work and then give it to the masses. And
Speaker 3: that's the idea of Prometheus grabbing the fire from the
Speaker 3: gods and bringing it to the people, and that Promethean
Speaker 3: Luciferian interconnection comparison.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And the reason I kept things as open
Speaker 1: as I did in practice is because America is very
Speaker 1: much to child of England. So I don't know all
Speaker 1: of the heritages, but many of you will have come
Speaker 1: from England. You are our future, like translocated into America,
Speaker 1: and you have that task trying to work out where
Speaker 1: this goes. You know where it goes for you, what
Speaker 1: it means, what it means in your disputed landscape, how
Speaker 1: you how you reclaim and work with that, and those
Speaker 1: are those are those are questions for individual magicians in
Speaker 1: an individual basis. So I've already had people writing to
Speaker 1: me saying, oh, so I got this practice. And the
Speaker 1: first thing I did was I went to Serpent Mound
Speaker 1: and read a certain mound, because that's there, that's their
Speaker 1: sacred landscape that they're trying to understand, and they're trying
Speaker 1: to understand these stories through because we're in a constant
Speaker 1: process of these things being written and overwritten and changed
Speaker 1: and rechanged. And it isn't a question of like going,
Speaker 1: oh my god, everything's cultural approciate appropriation. We can't say
Speaker 1: we can't do anything as moderns, we can't do anything
Speaker 1: because we are we are white. Now, this is bullshit.
Speaker 1: The important thing is that that people take these general
Speaker 1: principles and they apply them to the place that they're in,
Speaker 1: and they apply them to the culture that they're and
Speaker 1: then they continue to transform them.
Speaker 2: And it gives you.
Speaker 14: A mythic access to landscapes whose people have gone and
Speaker 14: that we have. Like in England, the Romans already killed
Speaker 14: all the Druids. We have no continuity with our own
Speaker 14: pagan traditions. So because the Bible then later overwrote everything,
Speaker 14: and so the stones here, though there's the sacred landscape here,
Speaker 14: are associated with the devil or fairies or giants, and
Speaker 14: there's this parallel then between that and the fallen angels
Speaker 14: and the world in the Bible, the giants and the
Speaker 14: nef lem and so on. So you're able to transpose
Speaker 14: that and use that mythically to access what's hidden in
Speaker 14: the landscape here, and to also like not to deny
Speaker 14: the Christian heritage we have, because it's a very important
Speaker 14: part of the West and Cold as well, but to
Speaker 14: go beyond that, to go further, to take it further,
Speaker 14: because I think that that the Anglican Church is meaningless now,
Speaker 14: it doesn't have any values at all. So and especially
Speaker 14: like I don't think I don't think Christianity is bad.
Speaker 14: My background is Catholic, my parents and family or Catholic.
Speaker 14: But to go beyond that, I don't think we are
Speaker 14: in opposition to this. I think that it's just that
Speaker 14: Lucifer is something being born. It's a new revelation, it's
Speaker 14: something coming through it. It's not the devil from the Bible,
Speaker 14: and practice talks a little about this. It's more as
Speaker 14: though what comes out it's not just the bad, but
Speaker 14: like everything that was suppressed all of all of the history,
Speaker 14: and so we can find a way into that and
Speaker 14: find a We are navigating a different world. I mean,
Speaker 14: it's a very different world from the Christian world. It's
Speaker 14: a very different world from Crowley's world even a hundred
Speaker 14: years ago. So we're looking towards the future. We're not
Speaker 14: like thinking about like twenty years ago, ten years. Things
Speaker 14: are going to change so much in the coming decades,
Speaker 14: very quickly because of Ai and all the other changes
Speaker 14: happening in the world. So it's really that Lucifer offers
Speaker 14: a way to think consciously about how we use technology,
Speaker 14: for instance, how we ethically approach what we do. Lucifer
Speaker 14: is a current which like puts our consciousness into this
Speaker 14: position where or if we're going to take if we
Speaker 14: are going to be as magicians conscious about what we
Speaker 14: do in the world and what the world is in
Speaker 14: our relation to it. There is a sort of a
Speaker 14: moral or an ethical thing that goes with that as well,
Speaker 14: like an obligation to rethink how we are in relation
Speaker 14: to everyone and everything, all the other being and spirit.
Speaker 5: I'm going to follow that up just because I I apologize.
Speaker 5: I think that's incredibly interesting and beautifully said, simply because
Speaker 5: this is something that we talk a lot about in
Speaker 5: our group show, which is called The Gray Lodge, which
Speaker 5: Matt and I obviously our co.
Speaker 2: Host line.
Speaker 5: The geoontological relationality and sort of looking at these karmic
Speaker 5: connections with each other but also with the landscape on
Speaker 5: which we arise. Rather than saying it's specifically racial, and
Speaker 5: I think this goes very much to what Peter is saying.
Speaker 5: He's saying, like, yeah, I agree, cultural appropriation is bullshit,
Speaker 5: because you where you arise in your consciousness matters a
Speaker 5: lot more than the bio essentiality in my opinion.
Speaker 2: So and I think.
Speaker 5: That even where you're born, because a lot of Americans,
Speaker 5: like I live in Canada, but I've lived all over
Speaker 5: the US and Canada, So for me, where you're born
Speaker 5: might determine something, but it's where you really come into
Speaker 5: your more fullness as a magician, like where are you
Speaker 5: first having stuff out experiences or magical experiences or mar
Speaker 5: Comwa journey experiences or experiencing the tikinis, Like I know
Speaker 5: you said that you dance, So I just thought, well,
Speaker 5: that's so interesting obviously being and then also I want
Speaker 5: to sort of ask about the post Christian landscape because
Speaker 5: I think this is really interesting, and I think this
Speaker 5: touches a lot on my own work and then our
Speaker 5: group work of aon of the Daughter, because I've always
Speaker 5: said it's cosynchronous. I agree with fred or a child
Speaker 5: that is cosynchronous with the aon of the sun, so
Speaker 5: there's no true tension between them. But it's also looking
Speaker 5: at like a progressive not necessarily political, and maybe not
Speaker 5: political at all, but it's looking at a progressive view
Speaker 5: of American I'm using American magic, but maybe magic just
Speaker 5: in Toto. So if you want to respond to that,
Speaker 5: like how do you see the ten? I mean, I
Speaker 5: think you spoke on it. But the tensions of the
Speaker 5: sort of reactionary magical community that would say, oh, we
Speaker 5: hate Christianity because it is we have daddy issues or
Speaker 5: whatever it is.
Speaker 2: Whatever it is.
Speaker 5: Like I was born Catholic, I have no problem with
Speaker 5: Christianity myself. I'm not going to be Christian, but that's,
Speaker 5: you know, my choice. And so I just think that
Speaker 5: there is a tension, but I think it's easily resolved
Speaker 5: for me in practice, in practice of kabbala. So Kabala
Speaker 5: for me has sort of reunified my whole orientation, maybe
Speaker 5: my whole view to magic in saying that, yeah, okay,
Speaker 5: maybe if you want to call it Hasham, you want
Speaker 5: to call it God, you want to call it Jesus,
Speaker 5: like all these different ways to map it on the tree.
Speaker 5: That's fine. It's all reconcilable if you understand. If you're
Speaker 5: you know, high a q enough And so I just
Speaker 5: find like what you're saying very important and very aonic
Speaker 5: and very beautiful. So I don't know if there's a
Speaker 5: question in there, but if You're welcome to respond or
Speaker 5: not in any way that you want.
Speaker 1: Sure. I think one of the problems is the or
Speaker 1: the like broadly left hand path apprightes have been have
Speaker 1: been all positional, and my my feeling with these is
Speaker 1: that that if so if you're Christian, then you're you're
Speaker 1: coming out of Christianity, then you can perform a single
Speaker 1: black mass. But if you spend your time repeating that
Speaker 1: transcrission over and over again, you're just trapping yourself in
Speaker 1: another silly game. And I think that's what's happened very
Speaker 1: much in America because of the influence of sort of
Speaker 1: lavein Satanism. It's been it's been a very it's been
Speaker 1: a very reactionary, fucking you mum and dad, like you know,
Speaker 1: sticking your fingers up at the establishment kind of like approach,
Speaker 1: and ultimately it's childish. It doesn't get you very far.
Speaker 1: Like as an initial reaction, I'm not going to throw it,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not. I'm not going to throw it away.
Speaker 1: And I think people can gain something from that that
Speaker 1: that initial tension. But there's there's a more sure had
Speaker 1: our way to approach this, and I've been really gratified
Speaker 1: to find. I've got I've got quite a few Christian
Speaker 1: readers of my list for material and quite a few
Speaker 1: recover in Christian readers of my list for material, because
Speaker 1: it shows them a Bible that they haven't necessarily read
Speaker 1: when they were in their in their small, in their
Speaker 1: small world churches, like they hadn't really understood the world
Speaker 1: and the text was being described. Now we're in a
Speaker 1: kind of weird position because in England, in England, we
Speaker 1: don't have Christianity anymore like we are we are, We're
Speaker 1: in a stage where the church is completely collapsed, like
Speaker 1: it's people do not go to church here, and I'm
Speaker 1: not sure whether Americans can understand us, like it's such
Speaker 1: a minority pursuit. There's a there's a new rise in Christianity,
Speaker 1: like there's a there's a street Christianity which is coming
Speaker 1: up now at the moment, but whether I doubt that
Speaker 1: will get beyond a very small phase here people people
Speaker 1: have just gone past that, whereas in America things are
Speaker 1: quite different. So I'm seeing a lot of chatter on
Speaker 1: pagan and occult forums when when you know when not
Speaker 1: for forums, but like substack notes and things with people
Speaker 1: talking about the rise for Christian nationalism and the threats
Speaker 1: that Christianity posts in America. And I don't really know
Speaker 1: how to interpret that because I'm not on the ground.
Speaker 1: It's very difficult for me to understand understand what the
Speaker 1: reality of that looks like to people. And I know
Speaker 1: that that's going to be very different from if you're
Speaker 1: if you're living on the West Coast or if you're
Speaker 1: living in the Bible Belt. I mean, these are going
Speaker 1: to be very very different places in terms of how
Speaker 1: you how you interact with your with your fellow fellow
Speaker 1: Americans who hoping to Christians. But I think that the
Speaker 1: stronger position that I'm trying to advance in practice is
Speaker 1: is we're we're post Christian and not anti Christian. And
Speaker 1: I think if we can, if we can get that
Speaker 1: message across the people, they can move through Christianity to
Speaker 1: a more constructive position, then we can probably find common
Speaker 1: ground with a lot of these people and not simply
Speaker 1: try to reassure ourselves of our own our own identities
Speaker 1: by defining ourselves in or position to you know, allowing
Speaker 1: us or allowing us to be defined, or allowing us
Speaker 1: or trapping us in that kind of silliness where where
Speaker 1: we end up like the Satanic temple, you know, thinking
Speaker 1: it's hilarious to call abortion human sacrifice, and then and
Speaker 1: then wonder why it blows up for people who are
Speaker 1: running magic shops in quiet parts of America.
Speaker 14: I think it's so important. Sorry to interrupt in no
Speaker 14: GM wanted to say something, but no, it just went sorry,
Speaker 14: going on, It's going to add something, yeah.
Speaker 5: Oh please please, I mean everything. It's like amazingly general conversation.
Speaker 5: Just one of our co hosts from the Gray Lodge.
Speaker 5: He was supposed to be on. He had a family
Speaker 5: thing come up, so I just he has a really
Speaker 5: great question, and I think Peter kind of touched on it,
Speaker 5: but we'll, like, let's see, I'll read his question and
Speaker 5: then either of you can address it. You address the
Speaker 5: need to liberate your practice from the eschatological confines of
Speaker 5: Christian myth, but nonetheless include references to the day of
Speaker 5: judgment in your curses. For example, this points to a
Speaker 5: lingering tension at this point in your life. Do you
Speaker 5: view this as a stumbling block or as a generative
Speaker 5: source of creativity and play.
Speaker 1: So we've been handed an apocalyptic script by Christianity, that
Speaker 1: tends to cascade through things, and I think it's very
Speaker 1: dangerous and one of the reasons that I spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time looking at like Revelation, for example, as
Speaker 1: a text beginning in the Red Goddess, but as a
Speaker 1: mature going through my entire corpus is because I think
Speaker 1: that we can take that apart. I think we can
Speaker 1: prevent using it in a negative way to track us
Speaker 1: in a way that at least outcomes which ends up
Speaker 1: faith happens, which end up end with the destruction of humanity,
Speaker 1: with born again Christians having control of the nuclear bomb,
Speaker 1: having control of with the Collins Elite, if that's a
Speaker 1: group of UFO disclosure and the way that we interact
Speaker 1: with with UAP. I think there are smart ways that
Speaker 1: we can undo it. But we're all living in our
Speaker 1: personal apocalypses as well. I mean, we're all we're all
Speaker 1: purtling towards death. So so that that's something that you know,
Speaker 1: this is something that we have to confront as well
Speaker 1: as a chartist say that I think I think that
Speaker 1: the apocalypse can be used to think through that. The
Speaker 1: death meditation, I think is one of one of the
Speaker 1: critical parts of that of that practice.
Speaker 2: In a lot of ways. I see what you're saying.
Speaker 12: It's like the fear of death has led these you know,
Speaker 12: these three forces against each other and opposition. You've got Islam, Christianity,
Speaker 12: and Judaism, and it's all sort of predicated on the
Speaker 12: individual's fear of what's to come after. And really, if
Speaker 12: consciousness can go into the body, then consciousness can.
Speaker 2: Go out of the body. So what are we talking
Speaker 2: about here?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 12: Right, So are we basing all of these political conflicts
Speaker 12: off of these stories or have we been co opted
Speaker 12: by these stories about maybe imposing a little fear of
Speaker 12: death into people and created much more death and destruction.
Speaker 3: Well, they say that the fear of death is actually important,
Speaker 3: is that if we can fear, we have to have
Speaker 3: a little fear of the unknown so we can understand
Speaker 3: how to then walk into it without the fear, because
Speaker 3: we can't be a hero without first understanding the fear
Speaker 3: that we have of that darkness.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 10: It's the idea of the busheeto.
Speaker 3: Code, where you wake up every morning and say today
Speaker 3: is the day to die, and you walk into the
Speaker 3: world knowing that I will die today. And even if
Speaker 3: that's a symbolic understanding of what death means to us,
Speaker 3: or if it's that I'm going to protect my master,
Speaker 3: or my wife or my family from these unknown aspects
Speaker 3: of things, I need to have a little fear.
Speaker 10: It's like every time I.
Speaker 3: Go on stage, not that I go on stage that
Speaker 3: much anymore, or do we do a live stream or
Speaker 3: you're going out there and giving a talk or whatever
Speaker 3: it is, you have that little inkling of fear, and
Speaker 3: it's like that leads to courage, and then that courage
Speaker 3: leads us to becoming superhuman in our own way.
Speaker 10: That's how That's how I like to.
Speaker 3: But I do agree that that they want us to
Speaker 3: be they the days want us to be, and not
Speaker 3: those kind of days, but the day wants.
Speaker 10: Us to be afraid of death.
Speaker 3: And if it's easier to create than the Brian Johnson's
Speaker 3: of the World, right, that character who's trying to defy death,
Speaker 3: which is on sensical, and then he wants to live
Speaker 3: stream his fucking stupid psychedelic journeys when technically all he
Speaker 3: needs to do is shut the lights off, take a candle,
Speaker 3: they take a heroic dose and throw on lateralis and
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden you have this internal feeling
Speaker 3: of what the true expansiveness of going into the mystery
Speaker 3: school and coming out alive is, and then we can
Speaker 3: truly be alive.
Speaker 10: That's my soapbox.
Speaker 11: That's one thing that we were talking about even before
Speaker 11: starting the recording here was that in Brazil there is
Speaker 11: a lot of openness to a lot of these topics
Speaker 11: that we were talking about, like the esoter sayism or
Speaker 11: even what you guys were saying about the post Christian
Speaker 11: because what happened here is you have all the Catholics
Speaker 11: from Portugal and you know, the all the europearent places,
Speaker 11: but especially Portugal. They had the Africans coming with all
Speaker 11: their heritage and the natives here and we kind of
Speaker 11: just mixed up everything and we had to make sense
Speaker 11: of it. So in the end we have people that
Speaker 11: would you know, get all the let's say, the African
Speaker 11: and the native practices, kind of meshed them, syncretize them,
Speaker 11: but then add like Jesus in the middle as well,
Speaker 11: you know, somehow there's some saints and Jesus there as well,
Speaker 11: or the guys like something that actually started back in
Speaker 11: France with Kardak so like his pirtism that they didn't
Speaker 11: got extremely popular there, like in Europe in general, but
Speaker 11: in Brazil it kind of like exploded and then a
Speaker 11: lot of other things out of it afterwards as well,
Speaker 11: because again he kind of got Christianity, he understood it,
Speaker 11: he went to the East to learn more, and then
Speaker 11: it's like, oh wait a second, yeah, people reincarnade and stuff.
Speaker 11: Yeah cool, Okay, there's not like just this thing where
Speaker 11: you wait forever until their return and one. So he
Speaker 11: kind of like updated the knowledge and then people, wow, okay, cool,
Speaker 11: this is more like it. But he still uses the
Speaker 11: Bible and whatever whatever, So it's kind of like what
Speaker 11: you're talking about, this kind of posts uh Christianity. And
Speaker 11: another thing that was in my mind was again this
Speaker 11: idea of okay, there's going to be an apocalypse, everything's
Speaker 11: going to end, and so one and well, by incidence, right,
Speaker 11: you have twenty two chapters and twenty two major account
Speaker 11: and a lot of the chapters are basically the twenty
Speaker 11: two are kind of being like displayed.
Speaker 10: But that's for another thing.
Speaker 11: And what you have there is, Okay, everything is gonna end,
Speaker 11: and sure it is that era because the cycles continue.
Speaker 11: That era that they're talking about is gonna end eventually,
Speaker 11: and then a new one comes up that's like the
Speaker 11: anti Christ, that the one that's gonna end the previous
Speaker 11: Desiah or whatever, and then everyone comes up and it
Speaker 11: goes again and again and again and again. But if
Speaker 11: you don't see it like that, like you guys are saying,
Speaker 11: it becomes just this fearful experience where.
Speaker 10: You cannot know, you don't know what to do.
Speaker 11: And then you have people that can capitalize on that,
Speaker 11: which they do a lot of times, like you have
Speaker 11: guys saying, oh, tomorrow is gonna be the day's day,
Speaker 11: and then everybody sells their shitping goes live with them
Speaker 11: and build an arc and whatever. Like people still do
Speaker 11: this to this day, like it's all the other day
Speaker 11: on Twitter or whatever. So again, it's just this myth
Speaker 11: that gets created. And like you guys were saying as
Speaker 11: well before, like if you don't get hold of that,
Speaker 11: then you're just living the myth of some people that
Speaker 11: lived in the desert two thousand years ago, and you're
Speaker 11: still living that. But you're like out of there, you know,
Speaker 11: you are somewhere in America, somewhere in Japan, whatever, and
Speaker 11: you're still living that story. Like it's it's over come
Speaker 11: on create your own you know. And I guess writing
Speaker 11: is the in reading books like consuming and creating, it's
Speaker 11: it's the excellent skill for that because you have to
Speaker 11: know how to create the story and to put it
Speaker 11: out there.
Speaker 10: So that's pretty nice.
Speaker 12: Time.
Speaker 14: Yes, Can I just say something I wanted to say?
Speaker 14: Like Matt, I totally agree like that, you can't rationalize
Speaker 14: the spirit world. Any people that like have Jesus and
Speaker 14: Babylon both in their lives. It's not our job as
Speaker 14: humans to rationalize the spirit world. It's all there, you know,
Speaker 14: Jesus is real for many people. For me, I never
Speaker 14: felt that connection. I was always oriented toward the feminine
Speaker 14: and unfortunately, as a child married ever made her you know,
Speaker 14: epiphany to me, so I ended up going the other way.
Speaker 14: But yeah, you can't rationalize the spirit world. It's it's
Speaker 14: all real, as I think, who was it that said
Speaker 14: that recently on one UAP thing like demons angels. Everything's
Speaker 14: out there and what you encounter will be largely because
Speaker 14: of where your consciousness is, how your consciousness is oriented
Speaker 14: in a particular moment in our incarnation. So the consciousness
Speaker 14: is not limited, but our incarnation is limited. I also
Speaker 14: wanted to mention something when Brandon was talking about fear
Speaker 14: was very good. I totally agree about that. Fear is
Speaker 14: really important. Everything Peter does turn to flow state. For me,
Speaker 14: it puts me in a fear state, you know. He
Speaker 14: I couldn't ride a bike until I met Peter and
Speaker 14: then he like two weeks after trying to teach me
Speaker 14: how to write, took me to the Alps and sent
Speaker 14: me down a black and it was like it was
Speaker 14: just basically, if you fall off, you'll die, So don't
Speaker 14: fall off, just let wrong. That was my fear slash
Speaker 14: flow state, and it's been a huge part of everything
Speaker 14: I do, the same as like going in this scene.
Speaker 14: For me, that's like.
Speaker 1: Scary, and for Peter it's the.
Speaker 14: Ocean is his sort of his world, the ocean created him.
Speaker 14: For me, I have to the smallest thing just because
Speaker 14: of my physiology. I can't cope with it. And there's
Speaker 14: a spirit I've had a long ongoing relationship with, but
Speaker 14: it's really comes to that the nature of that relationship
Speaker 14: is a series of nightmares essentially, in which I have
Speaker 14: to confront intensely frightening death kind of experiences and the
Speaker 14: Spirit will keep giving me these and I recognize the
Speaker 14: signature in it, and they're like they're particular watery signature
Speaker 14: that I recognize this spirit by that. This is that
Speaker 14: the whole dream experience itself is me being immersed in
Speaker 14: the world that the Spirit has given me for the dream.
Speaker 14: And they're always to do with confronting fear, and so
Speaker 14: there has been several sort of nightmare initiations, let's say,
Speaker 14: where I have to keep going through it until I'm
Speaker 14: able to confront that fear, and then everything just transforms.
Speaker 14: In that moment when I can steady myself and become
Speaker 14: lucid in the dream and recognize what it is, then
Speaker 14: everything changes. And the other thing I wanted to say,
Speaker 14: getting back to what Jin and I think Nick was
Speaker 14: saying about eschatology and end times and relationship of this too.
Speaker 14: I'm very interested in the approach that DH Lawrence took
Speaker 14: in his book Apocalypse to Revelation, which is interesting to
Speaker 14: parallel with Crowley's which is kind of a similar time.
Speaker 14: And he looked at it and he said that it's
Speaker 14: the woman holding the cup that walks out of revelation.
Speaker 14: The one interesting thing, you know, the life that goes
Speaker 14: beyond that. It's the woman holding the cup Babylon. So
Speaker 14: Croley's Babylon is one aspect of that divine, suppressed, demonized feminine,
Speaker 14: sacred feminine, and it's our feminine the West, which is
Speaker 14: where I see that parallel with the like Graderaiana tradition,
Speaker 14: that that's demonic, but it's not demonic, because it's actually
Speaker 14: our way through our history, our way through our karma,
Speaker 14: is to confront who she is, which is what this
Speaker 14: sort of work of excavation that Peter and I have
Speaker 14: done with Babylon since the Red Goddess and through the
Speaker 14: essays collected in the Brazen Berselon and various talks and
Speaker 14: things we've given. And there's a different eschatology with Babylon
Speaker 14: if you take it back to her origins in the
Speaker 14: Near and Middle East and the earliest rising of this
Speaker 14: figure with inanna Ishta, she returns from her underworld journey.
Speaker 14: She is the first born of the dead in recorded history.
Speaker 14: It's not Jesus that come back in Dubaya's death, it's
Speaker 14: actually an ana Ishtar. And she's both a woman and
Speaker 14: a goddess. She's the priester, she's the new gig. She's
Speaker 14: the taboo woman or the sacred woman. And this return
Speaker 14: from the underworld is more like the female erotic. There's
Speaker 14: like an erotic feminine way of seeing aspatology, which is
Speaker 14: countless cycles, as you said, cyclic time rather than linear
Speaker 14: time that just ends and we've fall off the cliff.
Speaker 14: It's like, yeah, the body dies, but the spirit goes
Speaker 14: on and things just keep you. We are recycled. Like
Speaker 14: I see our matters as absolutely sacred and intertwined with spirit.
Speaker 14: There is no difference. But we're just particles. The water
Speaker 14: that makes our body was born out of stars which
Speaker 14: died billions of years ago. We are stars. We are
Speaker 14: made of this stuff. This is our consciousness. Water is
Speaker 14: one unified field that light and beauty and spirit. It
Speaker 14: exists and travels through and speaks to us through. So
Speaker 14: following Babylon out of revelation is one way to get
Speaker 14: beyond that. You know that the climactic, you know, cut
Speaker 14: off of the sort of the male sexual response that
Speaker 14: is sort of like has been written into the and anyway,
Speaker 14: I think male sexuality is completely misunderstood. But I think
Speaker 14: that this idea that things just end is so linear,
Speaker 14: and I think the feminine brings back this sense that
Speaker 14: we just go round, the cycle goes again, our bodies
Speaker 14: are reconfigured as other things. You know, I'm no longer
Speaker 14: frightened of dying because it's just the body that ends.
Speaker 14: And my energy is already more than my body can bear.
Speaker 14: So I do when I come back next time, I
Speaker 14: will be hench or whatever.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 14: I lived, but I'm still not strong enough for what
Speaker 14: I have to do in the world. And yeah, I
Speaker 14: totally know that things keep going. But just there were
Speaker 14: so many interesting points you made. I just wanted to
Speaker 14: touch each of those that you had said. Thank you.
Speaker 5: That was really beautiful. Sorry, I know I said I
Speaker 5: was going to be quiet for a little while. Just
Speaker 5: I have to follow up with something.
Speaker 2: Is that.
Speaker 5: I think it's really profound because when I spoke to
Speaker 5: Gregory Peters with Soral, the other brother who wrote in
Speaker 5: the question, we talked a little bit about the etymology
Speaker 5: of the word tntra, and a lot of Western practitioners
Speaker 5: aren't super familiar. They're more like they know ton tata
Speaker 5: meaning like too weave beyond the stars. But if you know,
Speaker 5: because I'm a spend Buddhist, we call it tontra tontata,
Speaker 5: meaning that it is actually the goddess Tara, whose name
Speaker 5: means star. So I always thought that's so interesting because
Speaker 5: obviously anana Ishtar there is like a stellar component. We
Speaker 5: would say that she's self combusting. Now what does that
Speaker 5: exactly mean? Well, to figure that out for yourself. But
Speaker 5: I just think that's really beautiful, because yeah, we are
Speaker 5: made of stars. We are luminous and massless and infinite
Speaker 5: in our capacities. And I think that what Contred has
Speaker 5: taught me, maybe the most fundamentally, is yes, the wisdom
Speaker 5: exists as a method to get there there, and it
Speaker 5: doesn't really belong to anyone, like she doesn't belong to anyone,
Speaker 5: especially for our conception. She's postgnostic, post conceptual. She is
Speaker 5: not made of aggregates, she is not made of our perceptions.
Speaker 5: So I think very much it coincides exactly with what
Speaker 5: you said, And so I just want to follow up
Speaker 5: with an actual question. Apologize, I know kind of a neanderer.
Speaker 5: What is the relationship with Lucifer and Babylon and how
Speaker 5: would you sort of reconcile it or codify it.
Speaker 14: We just answer that question the other day.
Speaker 1: It's probably the best.
Speaker 14: It's the way I configure it in my head to
Speaker 14: try to make sense of what we've got in the
Speaker 14: tradition is that if you look at Revelation, Babylon is
Speaker 14: described as the mother of harlots and the abominations.
Speaker 1: Of the earth.
Speaker 14: The harlots are well, it's related to idolatry. Both harlow
Speaker 14: try and the idea of abominations are like idols and idolatry,
Speaker 14: and they're the sort of false religions and so on.
Speaker 14: But the harlots are also equivalent to the women who
Speaker 14: mate with the angels in the anochic literature, because they're
Speaker 14: they're exogamously, you know, having relationship with the angels and
Speaker 14: creating abominations. The abominations they create are in their floom
Speaker 14: and the giants, and so the spirit tradition that we
Speaker 14: in in the West, the demonological tradition, the giants are
Speaker 14: not the giants. The spirits are understood as the ghosts
Speaker 14: of the dead giants and levolous. So as if you
Speaker 14: think that our spirit tradition that Lucifer is the head
Speaker 14: of are like the progeny of these human these mortal
Speaker 14: women with the angelic realm.
Speaker 1: Of the heavenly rum.
Speaker 14: It means that there's something born both of the Earth,
Speaker 14: but also that they're sired by the heavens. And I
Speaker 14: see this relationship therefore with Babylon and lucifers, that they
Speaker 14: are both. You can relate both of them to the
Speaker 14: Morning Star, to Venus. And I've also spoken a lot
Speaker 14: about how give a talk about how there are a
Speaker 14: lot of astral configurations which are related and stars which
Speaker 14: are related to Babylon. So they're not limited. It's not
Speaker 14: like some clear identity. She is Venus and Lucifer is Venus.
Speaker 14: It's not that at all. It's that these currents, these
Speaker 14: energies are false.
Speaker 11: Is have.
Speaker 14: Draw from these astral configurations or beings, heavenly beings what
Speaker 14: they are, and that there's a sort of relationship they are.
Speaker 14: They are oriented towards the future. There's she's kind of
Speaker 14: the head of it. She's like the source of everything,
Speaker 14: She's the mother of these these things. But Lucifer himself
Speaker 14: is also like the the underworld, the first to die,
Speaker 14: the King and the underworld. Does this make any sense? Yea,
Speaker 14: And the underworld and the and the skies are also
Speaker 14: the same. You know that it's the other world because
Speaker 14: you have this parallel between the cosonic and the heavenly,
Speaker 14: always this relationship. But as I said earlier, I try
Speaker 14: not to rationalize too much. It's just that when you
Speaker 14: look at Revelation, this beautiful language like the Mother of
Speaker 14: Lots and abominations of the Earth kind of gives you
Speaker 14: that key to fit both Babylon and the sort of
Speaker 14: demonological tradition in a post together, in a post Qristian
Speaker 14: interpretation where we can actually take it forwards. And yeah,
Speaker 14: that's kind of how I in my head.
Speaker 5: She is the mother of the Leela. That is absolutely true.
Speaker 5: It's her illusion, her world. She decides who she wants
Speaker 5: to play, so absolutely, and so thank you so much
Speaker 5: for the answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Question question A question is have you guys read Promethea
Speaker 3: by Alan Moore.
Speaker 10: A long time ago? Nice?
Speaker 3: And the reason I bring it up is because of
Speaker 3: its almost exactly like the volume three, the last volume
Speaker 3: is exactly just everything we're talking about right now with
Speaker 3: the eschatology and Babylon and even about what's going on
Speaker 3: in culture today and where we're heading. Is that so
Speaker 3: how Ellen Moore puts it, is that Babylon sits in
Speaker 3: a Banah, right, And that's when if I remember right,
Speaker 3: and I could be wrong, as Promethea, as Sophie is
Speaker 3: climbing up the tree and being Promethea, she is witnessing
Speaker 3: she runs into John Dee and she sees everybody on
Speaker 3: the cubes, and then all of a sudden she has
Speaker 3: this experience as she interacts with Promethea, the truest cent
Speaker 3: of Promethea.
Speaker 10: And then she sees.
Speaker 3: Both Babylon and Mary as the same individual but being
Speaker 3: expressed in two different ways. And I highly recommend everyone
Speaker 3: here and everyone listening to go and read how Elan
Speaker 3: Moore poetically talks about beholding Mary as she is the
Speaker 3: virgin and then beholding Babylon as the harlot and the whore,
Speaker 3: and how we have both of those aspects within us.
Speaker 3: And then Sophie as Promethea goes up and she you know,
Speaker 3: witnesses the Father in Chokmah and goes into Cather and
Speaker 3: becomes all. But the thing about what Promethea is to
Speaker 3: do after she understands these aspects of Babylon and the
Speaker 3: Mother is that when she comes back into the material
Speaker 3: realm of our kingdom of Earth, she is to aminetize
Speaker 3: the escasion, and this looks to us as if everybody
Speaker 3: is going crazy.
Speaker 10: It's like everyone's having this epileptic event.
Speaker 3: And interesting enough, once we all go through this, and
Speaker 3: Promethea brings everybody back into this singular room telling them
Speaker 3: that singular story as we are all being birthed into
Speaker 3: a new way of existing, a lot of really violent
Speaker 3: things happen during that birth, because birth has pangs and
Speaker 3: it hurts, and so it's such an interesting thing that
Speaker 3: way we view this apocalypse or this aescacion is that
Speaker 3: we both start to understand that inner Babylonian Harlot within us,
Speaker 3: and we start to understand that inner Mary or that
Speaker 3: virgin that we're being birthed into. And so it's just
Speaker 3: all these things that keep coming into my mind as
Speaker 3: you're talking about how then Lucifer and this like this
Speaker 3: way of viewing self awareness, because for some reason for me,
Speaker 3: I don't know why, I keep having this idea of
Speaker 3: Lucifer being the beholder and the one who helps us
Speaker 3: understand the valuation between good and evil and how not
Speaker 3: only are the gods gods, but we are I think
Speaker 3: Ike Baker said it, we are. It was it Jamie
Speaker 3: Paul Lamb or somebody was talking about how we are
Speaker 3: mortal gods as well as divine gods and the same breath,
Speaker 3: and so it's the only way to be born into
Speaker 3: that is to first die and have this experience of
Speaker 3: climbing up the tree as we go through it. And
Speaker 3: then a side note was when you were talking about
Speaker 3: how Jesus is real that again, I've just been integrated,
Speaker 3: and I did take a lot of entheogenic experiences while
Speaker 3: like listening to Tool and reading Promethea at the same
Speaker 3: time and meditating on those things. But there's a scene
Speaker 3: in as Promethea is experiencing Tipareth where you get to
Speaker 3: see all the Tiporethic sun gods and then you open
Speaker 3: up into a splash page and it's Jesus on the cross,
Speaker 3: and you know, and being all like the idea of like, well,
Speaker 3: doesn't matter if he existed, it's that he is real
Speaker 3: and more real than you or I, And this is
Speaker 3: the suffering that we all feel on a daily basis.
Speaker 3: So this is kind of a fascinating, fascinating thing of
Speaker 3: like how Babylon has been so and the idea of
Speaker 3: Lucifer has been so integrated into Satanism, And I wonder
Speaker 3: about how you guys feel about that, because I think
Speaker 3: that there's so many LARPers out there and Satanists who
Speaker 3: want to intermingle this idea of what Luciferianism is and
Speaker 3: then the idea of what Lucifer is truly doing to
Speaker 3: our world, and then all.
Speaker 10: Of a sudden you get these like you.
Speaker 3: It's hard for me not to like call Jason Georgianni
Speaker 3: such a poofed, but it's the idea that he's like
Speaker 3: ruining the idea of what this Promethean fire character is
Speaker 3: supposed to truly be doing, and then telling people that
Speaker 3: philosophers shouldn't be religious and all these other things. And
Speaker 3: so it's such a very vast awkwards world that we
Speaker 3: live in where you get these Satanists like a Georgianni
Speaker 3: who doesn't truly have a practice and embodied but you
Speaker 3: can see it in his reptilian face that's like, I
Speaker 3: don't understand.
Speaker 10: And then you get a wave of individuals who are.
Speaker 3: Following him, and then people like you who are actually
Speaker 3: seeming to be doing the good work, trying to spread
Speaker 3: the good message of what it truly means to bring
Speaker 3: upon this new technology for people to integrate their you know,
Speaker 3: their currents into this divine wave.
Speaker 10: There's a question in there I watch want to know
Speaker 10: what you think about all that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to say it's quite a lot of
Speaker 1: Georgiohny because I have been ear I know. I find
Speaker 1: it interesting how much information he brings together, But I
Speaker 1: don't recognize the story that he builds out the material. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think he's a I think he's a fascinating thinker.
Speaker 1: But like all of these tricks to figures, you just
Speaker 1: this is him very very carefully because he places information.
Speaker 1: He makes all information look as if it's at the
Speaker 1: same level. When there's some information which is patently false,
Speaker 1: and there's some information which is like you know, is
Speaker 1: more real, and he just puts it all together and
Speaker 1: he tells this fabulous stream of consciousness, super confident words
Speaker 1: dropping like genius level discourse. That's it's fun. It's fun,
Speaker 1: and I can see how it does as people, and
Speaker 1: I can see how it opens doors for people. So
Speaker 1: I quite like him at arm's length, but I don't
Speaker 1: agree conclusions. That's kind of how I am with with
Speaker 1: with Jason. But there aren't many people who've done this
Speaker 1: work is the real thing. So so when when I
Speaker 1: did practice, I like I sealed myself off from everything,
Speaker 1: so I didn't look at I didn't look at modern Lycatherians.
Speaker 1: I didn't need the satanic stuff I avoided. I didn't
Speaker 1: even really read the academic text. Like guy I always
Speaker 1: named pair facts. Now's brilliant satanic feminism.
Speaker 14: Because it covers different material.
Speaker 1: Because it covers Brian, it covers different material, has a
Speaker 1: slightly different handle. And I try not to talk talk
Speaker 1: shit or throw shade about people who are working in
Speaker 1: the field, so I can I can say positive things
Speaker 1: about about some of the modern Luthafarians, but I think
Speaker 1: that there the problem is that they're all still trying
Speaker 1: to create c cults. They're all still trying to create systems,
Speaker 1: little systems and little pyramid schemes. And here's my logo,
Speaker 1: and here's my badge, and here's mine. It's a bunch
Speaker 1: of my bunch of it's my sixth art book series.
Speaker 1: And it's like, fuck off, guys. This is like we're
Speaker 1: past that, Like we're not playing those games anymore. Like
Speaker 1: we create things, which is why you know, this evening
Speaker 1: we're sitting here talking to to all you guys with
Speaker 1: all your radically different experiences, because this is where it
Speaker 1: happens now, Like it doesn't happen in a here is
Speaker 1: my closed spooky satanic cult, Like that's that's not the thing.
Speaker 1: That's like, it's open source. There is a time for privacy,
Speaker 1: and there is there is a time for secrecy, and
Speaker 1: I'm you know, individuals.
Speaker 10: Of course, but.
Speaker 1: At the same time, there's a great opportunity for us
Speaker 1: to talk honestly amongst each other as people who've had
Speaker 1: remarkable experiences. I mean, Brandon, what you've been through with
Speaker 1: your enthogenic experiences, and I'm sure everyone here has had
Speaker 1: theogenic experiences. Now, like we've really got our hands on
Speaker 1: like the rocket fuel. We have more texts than CHRONI
Speaker 1: could have ever dreamt off. We have more powerful tools
Speaker 1: and then could dreamt off. But it's very easy for
Speaker 1: us to be divided in groups squabbling over the attention economy,
Speaker 1: talking shit about one another and trying to sell products,
Speaker 1: and can we get past that, please humans? You know,
Speaker 1: we do not need to do that anymore.
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's a that's a great Yeah.
Speaker 5: I love that you said that, Peter, because it's very
Speaker 5: it's very similar to something we spoke about. We were
Speaker 5: had scheduled a I g oh, call influencer. We'll call her,
Speaker 5: and she veiled and so we had a kind of
Speaker 5: round table and we talked a lot about aonic thinking
Speaker 5: and sort of the nick said, like, you know, all
Speaker 5: these guys who are the heads of the Oto or
Speaker 5: the Temple of Said or whatever it is, they're all
Speaker 5: getting old. And it's not I'm not saying it as
Speaker 5: like aspersive way. I'm just they are fading, and with
Speaker 5: them will fade the old in a way. And so
Speaker 5: in my idea, the a of the Daughter is that
Speaker 5: we are leaving the institutional frame as well as perhaps
Speaker 5: also the longhouse, which is not necessarily tied to women
Speaker 5: as a whole, but just sort of like the sort
Speaker 5: of scold culture that has arisen. I think Peter has
Speaker 5: addressed this many times that has arisen in the last
Speaker 5: like twenty years, in this way of like keeping people's consciousness.
Speaker 5: And I think that's sort of what's interesting about both
Speaker 5: Luciferianism and contemporary Setianism is that it is about breaking
Speaker 5: conceptual frameworks. And I think, like to respond to what
Speaker 5: Brandon said, like for me because I relate the sephra
Speaker 5: to the Mahavija like the ten Contra goddesses. For me,
Speaker 5: she's not fixed in any sephra. She is all the sephra.
Speaker 5: So when you encounter them in the sephra, they might
Speaker 5: take a different form or based on my or the
Speaker 5: whatever mythopoetic framework that I'm using. But I never This
Speaker 5: is the one thing where I differed from hermeticabala is
Speaker 5: that I never saw that just it's not just been
Speaker 5: off for me, Like there can be a widow.
Speaker 2: Goddess that rises at hope mode, for instance.
Speaker 5: Like there are different kind of polarities that you can
Speaker 5: understand that work in each one. It's not just you know,
Speaker 5: there are different appearance existence forms.
Speaker 2: Anyways, I apologize.
Speaker 10: And I that's jinn.
Speaker 3: I completely get your point, and I agree, especially for
Speaker 3: the idea that in every sephra, every other sephra is there.
Speaker 10: Right.
Speaker 3: So that's the idea, the one in the ten and
Speaker 3: the ten in the all type of ideas that it's
Speaker 3: not just this tun dimensional thing, but within everything is
Speaker 3: everything else. And I think what Ellen's trying to get
Speaker 3: at when he's talking about those things is that he's
Speaker 3: understanding that we need for a general audience, because he's
Speaker 3: writing this book for fucking Vertigo or some shit, is
Speaker 3: that he needs to be able to explain this modernized
Speaker 3: grimoire to a masses of individuals.
Speaker 10: So then what you want to do is you want.
Speaker 3: To use the Tree of Life as a cabinet system
Speaker 3: and then have it understood as a certain kind of
Speaker 3: archetype that is in every sufferra. So as Sophia merges
Speaker 3: with the true Promethea, that archetype, which is become that
Speaker 3: egger Gore, which was a real person in that world.
Speaker 3: She merges with that so she can then come back
Speaker 3: to the world to bring on revelation, and in doing
Speaker 3: so she walks through and then witnesses these two the
Speaker 3: Saturnian figures this, yeah, the Mary and the Harlot and
Speaker 3: at the same time, and then that is that characters
Speaker 3: in path of individuation, her own hero s's journey as
Speaker 3: she is to then go and bring upon this thing,
Speaker 3: because she has to witness every aspect as she climbs
Speaker 3: up the tree. So I'm what I'm saying is I
Speaker 3: completely I agree with with you, with you in that
Speaker 3: kind of way, because my own my girlfriend. Also she's
Speaker 3: she's a Buddhist practicing Buddhist, and so it's like her
Speaker 3: and I argue all the time, where does the Buddhist
Speaker 3: sit on the tree? Where are these things sit on
Speaker 3: the tree? And it's like it's fun to do that
Speaker 3: with a loved one or a friend, but it's like
Speaker 3: we're all just like we're just sparring intellectually. So then
Speaker 3: when we bring it to the masses, we have a
Speaker 3: better way of trying to It's like how when I
Speaker 3: teach martial arts, it's every person I am talking to
Speaker 3: has their own bodily mental mind experience in things, and
Speaker 3: so how I teach one person hungar or when chun
Speaker 3: or tai chi is not, then how I'm going to
Speaker 3: do it to the other person, even though I still
Speaker 3: have these set systems that I'm trying to express and
Speaker 3: pull out of each individual's bodily experience in the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And just to respond quickly, Brandon, is that I
Speaker 5: always say, like, just like David ham Smith, I know
Speaker 5: he gets brought up like every episode that I'm on
Speaker 5: and apologize. But you approach the tree non dually with
Speaker 5: body cheetah framework and from the middle path and like
Speaker 5: it will unfold like in the part as system, you know,
Speaker 5: like the five. That's why the five as well. So
Speaker 5: I think I agree that it's all reconcilable. But I
Speaker 5: also agree with what was said before, like you don't
Speaker 5: want to rationalize everything. Maybe that's just for like your
Speaker 5: autistic cabalistic practice like me, like in private, but I
Speaker 5: don't need to necessarily relate that to everyone, which I
Speaker 5: think alo speaks to what Peter and Als said about,
Speaker 5: you know, teaching people the inner outer in secret and
Speaker 5: how Alan Moore kind of blends, which is a very
Speaker 5: contract conceptualization of blending outer inner outer and secret teachings
Speaker 5: and calling them maybe even different things like saying this
Speaker 5: is a secret teaching, but it's actually an outer teaching,
Speaker 5: but you're presenting it as a secret mystery. So I mean,
Speaker 5: I'm very familiar with the chaos magicians. They love to
Speaker 5: do this. It is what it is. Even Crowley does
Speaker 5: it a little.
Speaker 3: So Alan Moore is not a chaos magician and he
Speaker 3: hates Grant Morrison just for that.
Speaker 10: I just want to make that very known.
Speaker 5: I think that he probably borrows some ideas.
Speaker 7: How can we not yeah, and bring back books for
Speaker 7: a second, as I know we're supposed to kind of
Speaker 7: wind down in just a minute, like speaking of that
Speaker 7: difference between the secret cults doing their secret cult stuff
Speaker 7: and then on the other end, like the total open source.
Speaker 7: I wanted to ask our lovely folks from Scarlett Imprint, like,
Speaker 7: what was your intention behind starting the press and did
Speaker 7: you think that it was going to go along as
Speaker 7: long as it has and be so impactful. And one
Speaker 7: of the things I really love about how you guys
Speaker 7: run that is there's so many different ways to obtain
Speaker 7: the books, whereas we see a lot of occult publishers
Speaker 7: where they only will release like I don't know, fifty
Speaker 7: editions bound in nice goat with the embossing and like,
Speaker 7: don't get me wrong, I absolutely love that stuff, but
Speaker 7: I really really appreciate that you guys also make the
Speaker 7: digital editions like super super affordable for people in the
Speaker 7: paperbacks as unlimited editions. And I'm just curious about like
Speaker 7: that kind of original spark of creating that press, publishing
Speaker 7: your own work and also publishing incredibly interesting other voices.
Speaker 7: And if you could just speak to that a bit,
Speaker 7: I think everyone probably really loved to hear about that.
Speaker 14: You stop.
Speaker 1: So we started Skoleton Grin in an occult world, which
Speaker 1: in England was really Morgan like it was. It was
Speaker 1: it was dying. There was nothing happening, there were there
Speaker 1: were no presses. The previous generation of chaos magicians were
Speaker 1: kind of like winding down essentially, so there wasn't a
Speaker 1: great deal of energy in the scene in it. And
Speaker 1: I wanted to I wanted with the first edition of
Speaker 1: The Red Goddess, I wanted to produce a magical, talismanic
Speaker 1: book would go out to the world and change everything.
Speaker 1: And and we we quickly.
Speaker 14: We didn't really produce one hundred and fifty six because
Speaker 14: we could have thought, but also we really didn't think.
Speaker 1: That there would be any interest.
Speaker 14: So we like wrote we had a few people on
Speaker 14: Peter's like what was it live journal contact list from
Speaker 14: live journal days, and like wrote to them individually and said,
Speaker 14: we're doing this. And I think there was some like
Speaker 14: online forum you opened it on.
Speaker 8: It was like so small.
Speaker 14: It took ages to sell these one hundred and fifty
Speaker 14: copies and then you just well, howling has happened because
Speaker 14: the flat got filled with spirits. It was very strange,
Speaker 14: and we did a divination and it had to do
Speaker 14: with the Gosha of Solomon. So we kind of went
Speaker 14: down that route and produced howlings out of that, out
Speaker 14: of the sort of like, okay, what's in these.
Speaker 1: There's something there? What are people doing with people? So
Speaker 1: like I knew a lot of well I knew enough
Speaker 1: contemporary pas editions to say, well, magic, like where are
Speaker 1: the people who are doing things? What are theitioner accounts?
Speaker 1: Not not not an academic approach, not a here's another
Speaker 1: historical approach, but to say, what are people doing out there?
Speaker 1: Let's let's share our experiences. And we're always we've always
Speaker 1: been fundamentally democratic. So although we make very nice books,
Speaker 1: it's important to us because you know, we were students too,
Speaker 1: Like we were poor too. I mean we're not rich now,
Speaker 1: but like to be able to say to people, look,
Speaker 1: you can get a paperback just here's information.
Speaker 13: Limits information that a limit it to people who have
Speaker 13: deep pockets to say, to say, we can change the
Speaker 13: world with a paperback book, and we can change the world.
Speaker 14: With a fine edition bound in leather. And the thing
Speaker 14: is a fine edition will last for hundreds of years
Speaker 14: and maybe you know, ends up somewhere and will survive
Speaker 14: cataclysms because someone's put it somewhere very safe. Paperback the
Speaker 14: last few years. Digital editions will disappear as soon as
Speaker 14: the electricity goes down. So everything, but it can have
Speaker 14: an impact in a wider It can have a digital
Speaker 14: edition or a paperback can have a print on demand
Speaker 14: because they're available through Amazon, and a lot of our
Speaker 14: books is print on demand, and so the quality is
Speaker 14: like not great, it's not bad, which is not great,
Speaker 14: but it does like it can get to more people
Speaker 14: and so have like a bigger reach and that can
Speaker 14: transform people. But also a hard back that's nicely bound
Speaker 14: might last longer, might have a longer life, might pass
Speaker 14: through several hands and find more people. And so it's
Speaker 14: about that approach that you can have books that work
Speaker 14: in different ways, that carry the material out into the
Speaker 14: world and have that different relationship with the people that
Speaker 14: they come into contact with. So it was really about
Speaker 14: making and it happened because we just grew, like we
Speaker 14: didn't think we'd carry on doing it. It just it's
Speaker 14: just kept happening. Like I'm always surprised when people by
Speaker 14: because we also do very personal stuff. We're not trying
Speaker 14: to be like everything we're trying. Yeah, books are alive exactly.
Speaker 14: We are not trying to be the best of cult
Speaker 14: publisher or any of that. We want to do something
Speaker 14: very personal, very individual, and like our own. You know
Speaker 14: what really speaks to us because there are so many
Speaker 14: publishers now doing those things for themselves, do those things.
Speaker 14: So what's interesting is too, like we're putting out The
Speaker 14: next book we'll put out is a very interesting book
Speaker 14: of poetry. It will probably be bought by two hundred
Speaker 14: people in the world maximum. This is like as far
Speaker 14: as these things go. But I find there's something extraordinary
Speaker 14: about the writer and what his work is and what
Speaker 14: he's done. So I really feel that it's necessary to
Speaker 14: put out both something like Peter Mark Adams Game of Saturn,
Speaker 14: which has had a huge impact on people, but also
Speaker 14: the very like arcane stuff which might only get to
Speaker 14: a few people. And it's it's just that it's got
Speaker 14: to be personal, and it's got to have integrity, and
Speaker 14: it's got to not be restricted in this Oh, but
Speaker 14: you can't afford the nice edition. And yeah, and like
Speaker 14: the academic books are like that too. I love so
Speaker 14: many I see so many books from brill that I
Speaker 14: wish I could afford, but it's like it's not happening.
Speaker 14: So we are really just trying to do something which
Speaker 14: is both completely independent. We're too small to be We're
Speaker 14: small enough to exist in the cracks, is what I'm saying. Well,
Speaker 14: it's like kind of witchcraft to exist in the cracks
Speaker 14: between what's meant to exist, but you're allowed to. We
Speaker 14: can just about survive and function and do this thing.
Speaker 14: And then you know, maybe it takes people. It opens
Speaker 14: up into other people's whilst in ways that we can't
Speaker 14: control and aren't interested in controlling. You know, it's down
Speaker 14: to everybody else's individual inspiration and genius to take things further.
Speaker 1: And we just love works. Yeah, because you know, as
Speaker 1: we're talking about, we're talking about a body, and so
Speaker 1: probably I can probably roll all this back together again.
Speaker 1: So the thing with the book is that it's built
Speaker 1: on the size of the body. So it's built on
Speaker 1: how big it is to fit in your hand, how
Speaker 1: far that has to be for you to read it.
Speaker 1: Like the book is, the book comes out of the body.
Speaker 1: And when we're talking also about about fear, and we're
Speaker 1: talking about the disruption of people through the online media
Speaker 1: and just the endless pressure and the bitching and the
Speaker 1: attention seeking. If you read a book, then you're regaining
Speaker 1: control of your attention span. If you have a physical
Speaker 1: book and you like you read a you read a
Speaker 1: chapter a day, then you will you will significantly REWI
Speaker 1: you're brave and the damage that you're doing to it
Speaker 1: with doom scrolling, and you start to see the world
Speaker 1: in a different way. And when the lights go off,
Speaker 1: when everything goes wrong, you've got books on your shelf.
Speaker 1: You can sing, you can read a book. You can
Speaker 1: read a book out loud to your lover, the fox
Speaker 1: like week books to each other. Incredible piece. I have
Speaker 1: never never beaten the technology.
Speaker 14: I think it's like it's like a shock. Books are
Speaker 14: like shocks. They have already reached the perfect form. It's
Speaker 14: just variations on a perfect form.
Speaker 10: Now we're just doing what.
Speaker 14: We can to do that thing.
Speaker 10: Yeah. I love that. As Colan said, right, the medium
Speaker 10: is the message.
Speaker 16: Thank you for.
Speaker 7: Of course. I can talk about books forever.
Speaker 5: And I just scarlet imprint is the best. I am
Speaker 5: friendly with a lot of inner traditions. People shout out
Speaker 5: Toby Chappel and the whole crew, but I have to say,
Speaker 5: for me, it's scarlet imprint. So I'm just saying that
Speaker 5: not in hopes to get you on my Showkeater, but
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 6: The traditions like set this out on how many authorisdes Yeah,
Speaker 6: was there anything else that you would like? You too,
Speaker 6: would like to even add before we start to wrap
Speaker 6: it up. Maybe you'd like to say something about it.
Speaker 6: I guess maybe anything really, anything you want to leave
Speaker 6: us with.
Speaker 1: Anything you just I think we're in a really good stay.
Speaker 1: I think I think we have an occult community with
Speaker 1: a whole range of powerful publishers with different voices at
Speaker 1: different price points that are making stuff available. We have
Speaker 1: online communities like this which are allowing people to have
Speaker 1: conversations in real time, which is hugely important. We've had
Speaker 1: some brilliant conferences like your Culture conference in Berlin last
Speaker 1: year was like just super just to have people and
Speaker 1: bodies in space, because people in space don't talk shit
Speaker 1: because there are consequences. So over on meet on a
Speaker 1: level and you realize what people are like, and you
Speaker 1: learn a lot more from people that way than you
Speaker 1: do anywhere else. So we're in a in a dangerous,
Speaker 1: unpredictable world. But I think as a community to practitioners.
Speaker 1: It's just wonderful to continue to share and to drive
Speaker 1: the tradition onwards.
Speaker 14: I think, Yeah, I agree. We've got apocalypse coming anyway
Speaker 14: in maybe twenty years or something. Yeah, probably, Yeah, within
Speaker 14: five years, we're on this side of the veil exactly.
Speaker 6: That was very well said. Thank you both for coming on.
Speaker 6: I thought that was a great discussion. There was a
Speaker 6: lot of great stuff said. I know we kind of
Speaker 6: veered off a little bit off of like actual topic,
Speaker 6: but I was really glad that we got you on
Speaker 6: and everybody chimed in and the way it went. Before
Speaker 6: we wrap it up, I'll let everybody I just kind
Speaker 6: of promote themselves again. We'll start over again with you
Speaker 6: sabring over in the corner.
Speaker 4: What is going on? Please let it by know where
Speaker 4: they can find your work.
Speaker 8: Hello.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so you can find everything you need to know
Speaker 7: about me at Sabrinamscott dot com. I've got five books
Speaker 7: out for journals, two podcasts. Too many things going on,
Speaker 7: but it's interesting, So check it out and say hello.
Speaker 7: I love connecting with folks in the space.
Speaker 4: Thanks for letting me be here, of course, Oh, thank
Speaker 4: you for joining and Jim the Ninja. What is going on? Please?
Speaker 2: What is up?
Speaker 11: Boss?
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for allowing this metamagic to happen,
Speaker 5: because it is an incredible honor. I know I'm a
Speaker 5: little goofy today probably, but it's just famboy nerves. So
Speaker 5: I'll just we'll just say that the Tikinis are dancing
Speaker 5: in my mind. But if you want to check me out,
Speaker 5: you can check me out at wucom Reborn, w uk
Speaker 5: O and g Reborn on Twitter x or the show
Speaker 5: at Threshold Saints on both ig and Twitter, or at
Speaker 5: Threshold Saints dot substack dot com. Of course, you can
Speaker 5: find us at the Gray Lodge, which Matt Mura, of
Speaker 5: course is our webmaster, so at the True with a
Speaker 5: V plus all try baby the True Gray Lodge dot com.
Speaker 5: You can see all of our episodes and also the
Speaker 5: Threshold Saint's episodes with the members of the Gray Lodge
Speaker 5: and so shout out special shado out to Solar Exile
Speaker 5: who couldn't make it but was here in spirit, and
Speaker 5: also just.
Speaker 2: Pretty much that's it.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's been an incredible couple weeks and just
Speaker 5: like this whole year, even though it's like we're transitioning
Speaker 5: not yet, but transitioning soon into the Year of the
Speaker 5: fire Horse. I think in terms of generative discussions, progressive
Speaker 5: theories of magic, and sort of aonic currents, I think
Speaker 5: that we've been hitting it. So thank you so much,
Speaker 5: Nick and everyone who made it to the panel.
Speaker 4: Of course, thank you for coming on. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: And Brandon, please let everybody know what the final yostaf great.
Speaker 3: Thanks Nick, thank you everyone, Thank you Scarlet Imprint. It's
Speaker 3: it's so amazing to meet you. I feel so lucky
Speaker 3: and so grateful for Nick that he allows me to
Speaker 3: come on here and then meet such fantastic individuals all
Speaker 3: around here. So yeah, please everyone go over to magas
Speaker 3: and the media at my YouTube channel, subscribe, like share
Speaker 3: with your friends. We're trying to show everyone that magic
Speaker 3: is everywhere and all around us. I have all the
Speaker 3: things TikTok x Instagram. Also, if you ever and all
Speaker 3: are interested in learning the Path of the Warrior, head
Speaker 3: over to my Miraki Kung Fu instagram as well and
Speaker 3: dm me we can figure it out together. And again,
Speaker 3: thank you all for this fantastic talk.
Speaker 6: Oh, thank you so I always appreciate your outlook on things,
Speaker 6: so thank you and Ethan please let everybody know what's up. Well.
Speaker 9: That was so fun and the whole conversation reminded me
Speaker 9: of the idea of the breakthrough. As people go through breaks,
Speaker 9: that's the tough part and the breakthrough is the reward.
Speaker 9: So let's keep putting forth that energy. I appreciate you guys,
Speaker 9: thank you so much. And I'm easy to find online.
Speaker 9: I share tit chi as well like Brandon, and I've
Speaker 9: written several books. Again, I like to think I'm easy
Speaker 9: to find and look forward to more break breakthrough some
Speaker 9: scot Press. Thank you so much for all your insights.
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 11: And Matt sir, yes, thank everyone for the conversation. Was
Speaker 11: really nice, especially Peter and was very nice. Men you guys,
Speaker 11: and yeah, you can always find me as at Met
Speaker 11: Moore nineteen. That's going to be on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Twitch,
Speaker 11: co Hi maybe some other places. There's also my website
Speaker 11: that's going to be Kabala dot com k A A
Speaker 11: b A l a h dot com. And like I said,
Speaker 11: there's the terrat little thing that I'm running, so you
Speaker 11: can find more information about that on my Twitter, pinpost
Speaker 11: or just d m me in any of these and
Speaker 11: I'll be happy to share. Thanks again, Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4: And Helller's John my Man, thank you.
Speaker 12: You can find me at the Headless Giant podcast at
Speaker 12: gmail dot com. If you have any crazy stories about
Speaker 12: esoteric events or paranormal events, send it to us and
Speaker 12: we'll read it out on Thursdays. And if you also
Speaker 12: want to check out the Trialogus with Ethan Indigo that's
Speaker 12: on Sunday mornings. We've been having some really good ones lately.
Speaker 12: But if you want to continue the conversation, you can
Speaker 12: find me on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you, sir.
Speaker 6: And before we wrap it up, Peter and Kissy, if
Speaker 6: we would like to ed anything, you know, let everybody
Speaker 6: know where they can find your stuff, your website, whatever,
Speaker 6: whatever you like to plug.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, just come and find us.
Speaker 1: And o the website. So co and if thank you.
Speaker 14: Good conversation.
Speaker 1: Really lovely to share share time with you guys.
Speaker 16: And.
Speaker 4: I appreciate you both.
Speaker 6: I think we had an amazing discussion here today and
Speaker 6: it really felt great afterwards, so I appreciate it and
Speaker 6: hopefully maybe in the future we'll get you on again.
Speaker 6: And thank you everybody again, who was on the show.
Speaker 6: I appreciate it and everybody in the chat. That's what's up.
Speaker 6: That's why I go live. I appreciate all the comments
Speaker 6: and everything, and that is the end of another recult
Speaker 6: rejects and until the next one.
Speaker 4: Body be well later