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<v Speaker 1>This episode needs a warning label.

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<v Speaker 2>We recorded on the road in a hotel lobby, and

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<v Speaker 2>so the sound called is authentic, and that's it.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll go with authentic with.

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<v Speaker 2>The coming Fame, my Pain, the moneys, my Brain, Oh Whiskey.

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<v Speaker 2>Why think alone when you can drink it all in

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<v Speaker 2>with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour, join your bartenders Steve Hayward,

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<v Speaker 2>John U and the International Woman of Mystery, Lucretia Where

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<v Speaker 2>this lapsapp and David ain't easy on the shows?

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<v Speaker 1>Have you got to give me? And let that whiskey?

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<v Speaker 2>The Three Whiskey Happy Hour is back on the road

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<v Speaker 2>for the second week.

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<v Speaker 1>In a row.

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<v Speaker 2>Lucretia and I are here in Tampa, Florida. John you

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<v Speaker 2>was supposed to be here, but he flaked. But this

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<v Speaker 2>gives us the opportunity to catch up with someone we've

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<v Speaker 2>been wanting to catch up to you for a long time,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's Glenn elmers Hi.

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<v Speaker 3>Glenn, Welcome, Leks, Steve Hei, Linda, thank you having for

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<v Speaker 3>having me very happy.

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<v Speaker 2>Right right, So we've got to catch up with what

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<v Speaker 2>you're up to in a bit. But let's punch out

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of news stories quickly and then use a

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<v Speaker 2>new story to get into some serious things. And the

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<v Speaker 2>first one is just an observation. I'm not sure it's

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<v Speaker 2>worth discussing much. But this week two Supreme Court justices

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<v Speaker 2>made news, one by having to make an apology for

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<v Speaker 2>making a personal attack because a fellow justice doesn't go

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<v Speaker 2>on feelings, you know, right, Soda Mayor has a case

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<v Speaker 2>of the feelings, that's your jurisprudence.

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<v Speaker 1>And then of course she rec yeah, I do exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>she letting up to it.

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<v Speaker 2>And meanwhile you had Clarence Thomas talking about the Declaration

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<v Speaker 2>of Independence and giving a very substantive view of constitutionalism

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<v Speaker 2>and the contrast there. As I say, it doesn't require

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<v Speaker 2>much comment, but the flora is yours if you want to.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, isn't it astonishing that it Since the

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<v Speaker 3>left has no regard for precedent and jurisprudence, they also

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<v Speaker 3>have no regard for precedent in decorum either, Right, So

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<v Speaker 3>I guess it's not a surprise that it's always someone

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<v Speaker 3>from the left who breaks these long standing norms.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. Well, the other thing that's really great I would

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<v Speaker 2>expect Lucristy would say this is that she's not even

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<v Speaker 2>the dumbest member of the corps.

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<v Speaker 4>She has been surpassed in that she used to be.

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<v Speaker 3>She has been surpassed, right, Yeah, the dumbest and the

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<v Speaker 3>most loquacious. I get such a kick out of someone

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<v Speaker 3>who did these word counts. And the youngest and clearly

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<v Speaker 3>most inept justice is by far the most talkative.

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<v Speaker 1>I know she's gonna be the you have that keeps

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<v Speaker 1>on giving for a very long time. On the front, I.

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<v Speaker 4>Have to tell you I have a little bit of

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know if envy is quite the right word,

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<v Speaker 4>but I kind of look at people like that, and

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<v Speaker 4>you know, I remember being a young graduate student in

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<v Speaker 4>Claremont and being kind of, for the longest time afraid

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<v Speaker 4>to say anything just because I don't know anything and

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<v Speaker 4>all of these people are smarter than me. And it's

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<v Speaker 4>something I don't know that I ever got over. I

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<v Speaker 4>know I got over acting that way, But you know,

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<v Speaker 4>it's often the case that that I just wonder, how

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<v Speaker 4>do people just open their mouths and not realize how

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<v Speaker 4>stupid that they sound?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 4>Is it an incredible level of stupidity that allows you

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<v Speaker 4>to do that?

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<v Speaker 3>Could this be our first Supreme Court justice afflicted with dunning?

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<v Speaker 3>Krueger's injury.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what, I wish you could get a case.

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<v Speaker 1>It's dunning versus wish a test case and watch her

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<v Speaker 1>trip all over that.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So now the other story of the week that's

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<v Speaker 2>more serious on two levels, the low and the high,

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<v Speaker 2>is the Pope and our president are in a I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to use the.

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<v Speaker 1>Bar the locker room phrase, but they're having a fight.

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<v Speaker 1>And so, first.

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<v Speaker 2>Of all, Lucasiu may remember, I resisted the view partly

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<v Speaker 2>because of respect for Catholic doctrine.

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<v Speaker 1>I resisted the view that.

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<v Speaker 2>That Pope Leo was chosen because he's an American and

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<v Speaker 2>they wanted somebody who could stand up to Trump. And

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, look, Trump's only around for three more years.

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<v Speaker 2>The Pope is supposed to be the age of the

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<v Speaker 2>Holy Spirit. The Pope is going to be around for

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<v Speaker 2>at least twenty years. Why would you have short term

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<v Speaker 2>thinking like that. I'm rethinking this though. That's point number one.

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<v Speaker 2>Point number two is, boy, what a contrast between this

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<v Speaker 2>pope and say Benedict the sixteenth, Ratzinger or John Paul two,

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<v Speaker 2>who are both against war in the general sense that,

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<v Speaker 2>of course we deplore war in the abstract, but believed

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<v Speaker 2>in just war, understood that there were real enemies in

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<v Speaker 2>the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Who needed to be defeated peacefully if.

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<v Speaker 2>Possible, but by just war means, if necessary. And this

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<v Speaker 2>Pope seems to have no grasp of that.

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<v Speaker 4>It seems to think well, and I would probably concentrate

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<v Speaker 4>even less than the just war that one sort of sailed.

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<v Speaker 4>I think last week when the babylon Bee came out

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<v Speaker 4>with that great thing that said, Pope Leo says that

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<v Speaker 4>the Bible doesn't that nothing in the Bible supports war

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<v Speaker 4>if you leave out Moses, you know, and it goes.

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<v Speaker 1>Through all this people.

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<v Speaker 4>But that's actually what Trump said either yesterday or today,

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<v Speaker 4>to me, was even in many ways more profound. When

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<v Speaker 4>they asked Trump what he thought about Iran executing a

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<v Speaker 4>female protester, a young female protester, and he says, why

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<v Speaker 4>don't you ask the Pope about that? And I think

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<v Speaker 4>that that has been the most frustrating thing for me

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<v Speaker 4>as a Catholic, as a practicing Catholic, is that the

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<v Speaker 4>Pope is this Pope is willing to go put his

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<v Speaker 4>hands on a block of ice for climate change. He's

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<v Speaker 4>willing to go visit he's willing to let Muslims inside

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<v Speaker 4>the Vatican for a special prayer room. There's all of

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<v Speaker 4>these things that he's doing as an outreach to the

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<v Speaker 4>Muslim community. He will not acknowledge in any serious way

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<v Speaker 4>what's been happening in Nicaragua to Christian's in Nicaragua. I'm

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<v Speaker 4>especially does especially close to my heart. We now have

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<v Speaker 4>another priest from Nicaragua. One of my favorite priests ever

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<v Speaker 4>in my parish was from Nicaragua. And I know what

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<v Speaker 4>I know. I mean, his family's entire family was murdered,

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<v Speaker 4>and the Pope doesn't care. The Pope cares about I

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<v Speaker 4>guess politics. But the last thing I want to say

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<v Speaker 4>is I want to bring up something Tom Honan said,

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<v Speaker 4>who's also Homean homan Ya, who's also a practicing Catholic,

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<v Speaker 4>and he talked about I've talked about this on the

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<v Speaker 4>podcast before. I lived near the border. I know the

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<v Speaker 4>human suffering that is caused by unrestricted illegal immigration. The

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<v Speaker 4>You know, I have told the story before, but I'll

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<v Speaker 4>tell it again. There's many, many others just like it.

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<v Speaker 4>Of a good friend who's I went through a whole

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<v Speaker 4>bottle of whiskey with after he rescued a four year

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<v Speaker 4>old girl whose grandmother had sold her into sex trafficking.

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<v Speaker 4>You know that happens all the time when you have

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<v Speaker 4>all of these other illegal activities going on across the border.

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<v Speaker 4>And the idea that the Pope would just, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>slam Trump for his supposed cruel policies to illegal immigrants,

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<v Speaker 4>it's just stupid. It's I don't know how else to

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<v Speaker 4>say it, and I'm sorry, but it's stupid. And then

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<v Speaker 4>of course we won't talk about the one point two

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<v Speaker 4>billion dollars that the Catholic Bishop's got for a refugee resettlement. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm done. I doubt I'll have to go to confession now.

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<v Speaker 4>But I did talk to my There's a priest in

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<v Speaker 4>my parish who was the chaplain of the year for Arizona.

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<v Speaker 4>Very conservative politically. He keeps that to himself, but he

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<v Speaker 4>and I are very close. Who was his first duty

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<v Speaker 4>station was with the IDF. And I asked him, I said,

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<v Speaker 4>follow the rob tell me tell me how I'm supposed

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<v Speaker 4>to think about this pope. And his argument was that

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<v Speaker 4>the Vatican is such a cesspool that maybe I should

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<v Speaker 4>give the pope a little bit of grace for a

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<v Speaker 4>while and just see what happens. That was before the

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<v Speaker 4>whole David axel Rod thing. So I don't know, I

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<v Speaker 4>don't know anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean again, just to draw from history, you

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<v Speaker 2>go back to the eighties, right, and so you have

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<v Speaker 2>the Cold War, you have the nuclear freeze going on,

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<v Speaker 2>you have all the Catholic bishops condemning nuclear weapons as

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<v Speaker 2>a sin.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's John Paul two, who what was he doing?

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<v Speaker 2>He was not not signing up for that, and he was,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he had to let them give free range.

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<v Speaker 2>He kind of have to, you know, being an archaic

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<v Speaker 2>church in some ways despite the hierarchy. But the German

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<v Speaker 2>bishops pushed back very strongly an interesting time about something

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<v Speaker 2>that's much more cosmic than immigration, even quite a bit

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<v Speaker 2>more so. I think, so the contract, then the other

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<v Speaker 2>one is and this will draw into Glenn the theological

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<v Speaker 2>political problem.

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<v Speaker 1>So first of all, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Did find this quote from Benedict the sixteenth.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's a word missing in this quote we

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<v Speaker 1>got in front of us here.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, an absolute pacifism that denies the law that

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<v Speaker 2>any and all course of measures would be a capitulation

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<v Speaker 2>to injustice, would sanction its seizure of power and would

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<v Speaker 2>abandon the world to the dictates of violence. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>man who had his head on straight. And I also

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<v Speaker 2>remember we were talking before we started recording briefly about

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<v Speaker 2>Churchill and thinking of that passage in his reflections on

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<v Speaker 2>the Munich Agreement in the Gathering Storm where he has

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<v Speaker 2>that quote at the end, and I forget the exact wording,

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<v Speaker 2>but he talks about how.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna paraphrase, I understand that Christians are for peace and.

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<v Speaker 2>Individually can be pacifists, he says, everyone admires the Quakers.

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<v Speaker 2>Still it is not on these terms that government officials

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<v Speaker 2>assume their seals of office. That was Churchill's way, I

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<v Speaker 2>think in pointing at the theological political problem, and since you,

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<v Speaker 2>along with our pal Ben some you Know's and two

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<v Speaker 2>or three others, are one of the best thinkers on

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<v Speaker 2>this subject, I'm going to now point to you and say.

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<v Speaker 1>Go, well, I mean, I don't know, I explained to listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>We've pried and failed at it, but I mean, do whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>however you want to reflect on this from the high.

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<v Speaker 1>Point of view.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, I mean, just on the on the pope question,

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<v Speaker 3>it sort of reminds me in the old days when

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<v Speaker 3>the New York Times used to say that a certain

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<v Speaker 3>politician had grown in office, which meant that they had

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<v Speaker 3>fallen in line with the narrative of the blob and it.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Linda just mentioned what this Vatican is like,

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<v Speaker 3>and it seems like this pope has now grown in office,

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<v Speaker 3>which means fallen in line with the official narrative. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>the larger theological political problem, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Mean it sort of ties in.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if this is what you wanted me

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<v Speaker 3>to mention, but I have one book coming out that's

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<v Speaker 3>in production with a publisher at Sundia University Press that

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<v Speaker 3>Steve is actually a contributor to nineteen chapters on Leo

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<v Speaker 3>Strauss's most influential Students that will be out in the

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<v Speaker 3>spring from SUNI I'm excited about that. But I'm working

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<v Speaker 3>on another problem about what I'm calling the First Crisis

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<v Speaker 3>of the West, which is the collapse of piety in

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<v Speaker 3>ancient Athens. So by the time Socrates is out questioning

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<v Speaker 3>authoritative opinion in Athens, already elite opinion in Athenian society

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<v Speaker 3>was starting to question the Olympian gods. Right, Zeus and

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<v Speaker 3>Apollo and Athena are not really that believable. There's already

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<v Speaker 3>a kind of enlightenment going on in classical Athens. And

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<v Speaker 3>I think many of the serious thinkers at the time,

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<v Speaker 3>Plato certainly, but Thucydides, the great historian of the Pelponnesian War,

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<v Speaker 3>the comic player at Aristophanes, are looking at this question

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<v Speaker 3>of what happens when the gods are no longer believe

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<v Speaker 3>And this goes to what Strauss understood is the theological

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<v Speaker 3>political problem is how can you have law without divine sanction?

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<v Speaker 2>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>There, nomos in the classical world is always divine nomos. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>the law comes from the gods. But if the gods

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<v Speaker 3>are no longer believable, if the gods are not authoritative,

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<v Speaker 3>then what is the source of the law. And we're

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<v Speaker 3>going through this now. Strauss talked about the crisis of

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<v Speaker 3>the West, and in part it's the collapse of faith

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<v Speaker 3>in Western civilization, in reason, but also faith in the Bible.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's interesting to me that I think this has

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<v Speaker 3>already happened to some degree, and although in a slightly

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<v Speaker 3>different way, in classical Athens, and that the classical thinkers

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<v Speaker 3>are thinking about that and so I'm curious to see

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<v Speaker 3>if there's anything from the collapse of Athenian piety that

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<v Speaker 3>might be relative to understanding our own crisis of the

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<v Speaker 3>West today.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, go ahead, Okay, Well, I'm trying to think of

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<v Speaker 2>my hit my Greek history, which I don't actually know

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<v Speaker 2>that well.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean to make a long story short.

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<v Speaker 2>Does Athens fall apart when piety falls apart?

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't fall apart.

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<v Speaker 3>But remember we're not that far off from Alexander. And

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<v Speaker 3>you know, as our teacher Jaffi used to talk about

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<v Speaker 3>the ancient polist collapses basically when the empires begin to rise.

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<v Speaker 3>So you've got Persia, but really Alexander and then Rome.

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<v Speaker 3>And starting with Alexander, but then certainly with Rome, the

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<v Speaker 3>ancient polis, with its own special gods of the city

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<v Speaker 3>falls away, right, And so the rise of empire coincides

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<v Speaker 3>with the rise of the first universal religion, which is Christianity,

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<v Speaker 3>and so the collapse of the polis is in a

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<v Speaker 3>way codominious with the collapse of the gods of the cities.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, if you think about the causes, there's

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<v Speaker 3>a lot going on. As I said, there's already a

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<v Speaker 3>kind of enlightenment, you have this rise of the sofas,

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<v Speaker 3>you have the presocratic philosophers, you have the tragedians. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>it's not the blame is not all on Socrates in

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<v Speaker 3>the way Socrates is more of a symptom than a cause.

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<v Speaker 3>There are already a lot of factors going on, uh

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<v Speaker 3>to cause this crisis of faith, not just an Athens,

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<v Speaker 3>but but particularly because it's the most cosmopolitan city.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, so I'm trying to piece it theeter to get

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<v Speaker 2>to the problem of the current pope.

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<v Speaker 1>So, I mean, one way.

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<v Speaker 4>This is it's simple. In some ways it's simple. I

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<v Speaker 4>would just say this, Stephen, I don't want to I

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<v Speaker 4>don't want you to fall silent. Here's the difference. When

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<v Speaker 4>you have a universal god, uh, you don't. You no

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<v Speaker 4>longer have gods of the city, and so you either

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<v Speaker 4>have universal rule. We sort of tried that and it

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<v Speaker 4>didn't work out so well. And then you have, of

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<v Speaker 4>course the Machiavelian uh revolt against that idea of of

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<v Speaker 4>you know, a religious universal rule. That's probably a little

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<v Speaker 4>bit oversimplified. But what you have to get to today

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<v Speaker 4>is looking at the American situation, where this whole thing

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<v Speaker 4>with Trump is kind of silly. I suspect that it's

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<v Speaker 4>a deliberate effort to separate the Catholics, who are very

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<v Speaker 4>much in favor of Trump at the moment, from Trump

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<v Speaker 4>and trying you know, I suspect that. But nevertheless, there

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<v Speaker 4>are serious, serious things happening in the background. Why is

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<v Speaker 4>it that Americans can in fact criticize the pope? Why

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<v Speaker 4>can we criticize the Pope?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, yeah, well this is right. Sorry, this

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<v Speaker 2>is the hypocrisy. Here is the left right now? You

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned David Axelrod going to see the Pope. It sort

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<v Speaker 2>of looks there's a lot of visible fingerprints here.

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<v Speaker 1>It looks like what they're trying to do is to.

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<v Speaker 2>Agitate against an institution that the left hates more than.

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<v Speaker 1>Any other institution. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, the Trump is attacking the Catholics like we do

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<v Speaker 2>before breakfast. I mean, it's just breathtaking the hypocrisy and

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<v Speaker 2>the opportunism of this right. But what I was thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about is, Okay, you've a universal religion, the separation of

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<v Speaker 2>you no longer have your political duty and your religious Dude,

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<v Speaker 2>you're separate, righty, And the Pope will.

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<v Speaker 1>Unknowingly perhaps is.

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<v Speaker 2>Trying to erode that that distinction I think. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>he really is making a claim for how we should

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<v Speaker 2>be ruled, and he may not claim the right to

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<v Speaker 2>rule himself directly, but he's certainly very different again from Benedict,

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<v Speaker 2>who remember his famous Regensburg.

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<v Speaker 1>Address that upset the Islamic world because what.

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<v Speaker 2>He say, essentially you're saying is the Islamic world does

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<v Speaker 2>not recognize the logical political problem. They claim a universal

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<v Speaker 2>religion with a universal uniform mode of rule and prescription,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, no individual liberty, no limited government.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's what I'm sort of getting at that this

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<v Speaker 2>has blown this whole question up in ways that are

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<v Speaker 2>hard to get.

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<v Speaker 4>Let me just say one thing, which is why the

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<v Speaker 4>Pope's embrace of Islam and Muslim religion and so forth

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<v Speaker 4>is so insidious.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry if.

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<v Speaker 4>John the Second he he he fought against a true

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<v Speaker 4>evil in the world. He didn't embrace communism. And I'm

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<v Speaker 4>not even saying that there can't be some overtures by

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<v Speaker 4>the Catholics to the Muslim world. But what the Pope

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<v Speaker 4>is doing is just appalling and like I say, insidious,

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<v Speaker 4>I think, but go ahead, please.

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<v Speaker 3>So I dashed out into left field talking about my

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<v Speaker 3>book without really making the connection back to what we

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<v Speaker 3>were talking about. But there is interesting. I mean, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not defending the pope, but if you go back to

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<v Speaker 3>the ancient world, one reason that this crisis of piety

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<v Speaker 3>that I'm talking about was so such a serious problem

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<v Speaker 3>is again there had always the idea of separating church

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<v Speaker 3>and state would have been inconceivable in the.

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<v Speaker 1>Class exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>To be patriotic and to be pious was essentially the

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<v Speaker 3>same thing. Right to obey the law is to obey

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<v Speaker 3>the laws that came from the gods of your city.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's in a way what Strauss called natural politics.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>The theological political problem takes a really dramatic turn with

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<v Speaker 3>the rise of Christianity, which is not only universal so

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<v Speaker 3>it transcends all political obligations, but also a political in

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<v Speaker 3>a way, right, because secular authority is distinct. It's a

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<v Speaker 3>religion not of obedience to the law, but of doctrine.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>What matters is not that you follow the rituals and

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<v Speaker 3>ceremonies of the city, but that you believe in certain

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<v Speaker 3>theological tenets. And so in an odd way, although I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not defending the pope, he's in a way reverting back

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<v Speaker 3>to a kind of assumption that law and religion are

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<v Speaker 3>not really separable. Right, How can you be the head

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<v Speaker 3>of the church, How can you speak authority on matters

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<v Speaker 3>of morality and yet stay out of politics. Our American inclination,

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<v Speaker 3>because of our heritage of the separation church and state,

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<v Speaker 3>which did in fact solve a very serious problem, is

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<v Speaker 3>in a way complicated because the natural human inclination, from

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<v Speaker 3>the ancient's point of view, is to keep politics in

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<v Speaker 3>religion together, and it's actually a hard thing to separate them.

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<v Speaker 4>Isn't that the problem at the heart of Lincoln's lyceum

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<v Speaker 4>address as well? Yes, that you simply do not have

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<v Speaker 4>the respect the tradition, the I don't know that even

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<v Speaker 4>the awe of the law, if it does not have

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<v Speaker 4>some sort of religious foundation. If you can, Jefferson, even

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<v Speaker 4>can the liberties of a people be thought secure if

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<v Speaker 4>we remove their only firm basis that these rights are

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<v Speaker 4>the gift of God. But remember what Lincoln tries to

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<v Speaker 4>substitute it with. He calls it this political religion, religion

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<v Speaker 4>called sober reason will have to be our guide from

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<v Speaker 4>now on, you know. And yeah, so there's problems from

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<v Speaker 4>both sides of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so you know, I brought up that phrase from

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<v Speaker 2>Lincoln once with David Horowitz. Of course, he reacted very

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<v Speaker 2>badly to it for an entirely sensible reason. He was

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<v Speaker 2>thinking of twentieth century political religion meant the messianic, utopian,

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<v Speaker 2>totalitarian ideologies that fought against through the second half of

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<v Speaker 2>his life right now, and what that represents in a

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<v Speaker 2>certain way is also a dissolve of the theology, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, look as not just Jaffa, but a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people recognizes that Marxism was a Christian heresy in

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of ways. So that understanding of political religion

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<v Speaker 2>in the twentieth century of the horrors, And I said, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>Lincoln is a completely It took a while for me

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<v Speaker 2>to get through to him that no, it doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>what you think it means. I understand why you think that,

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<v Speaker 2>and why that phrase would be incendiary to someone who

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<v Speaker 2>came out of the radical world as he did, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and recognized it.

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<v Speaker 1>So there is that it's hard to recover.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, Lincoln draws. Of course, he says at

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<v Speaker 3>one point all my political opinions ultimately come from Jefferson.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I teach this question in the Clermont Fellowship programs,

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<v Speaker 3>I always point out that the Framers solve this problem

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<v Speaker 3>and try to fix it in a way that's quite ingenious.

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<v Speaker 3>And this I learned from Jaffa by establishing what Jaffa

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<v Speaker 3>called a natural theology. Right, And so in the Declaration,

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<v Speaker 3>you have the laws of nature and Nature's God. So

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<v Speaker 3>there is a sacred transcendent authority, right, but it's a

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<v Speaker 3>ecumenical it's not tied to any one particular church. So

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<v Speaker 3>you can have a natural authority, you can have a

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<v Speaker 3>divine or transcendent source of the law and still maintain

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<v Speaker 3>the separation of church and state. But that's actually a

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<v Speaker 3>complicated and difficult thing to do, and it depends, among

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<v Speaker 3>other things, on having a virtuous educated populace. And once

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<v Speaker 3>you lose that, then the whole complicated structure of maintaining

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<v Speaker 3>that really is hard to sustain.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think you can't just say that that it's

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<v Speaker 4>a lack of an educated populace. Also have to I

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<v Speaker 4>think I think you have to admit that the project

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<v Speaker 4>of the left has been to destroy any possibility that

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<v Speaker 4>any sort of religious influence or even some sort of

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<v Speaker 4>you know, think about our great presidents like Regan and Lincoln.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know, you could Trump, you could maybe even

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<v Speaker 4>include in this Jefferson, who had no who belonged to

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<v Speaker 4>no specific religious sect. And for that reason we're able

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<v Speaker 4>to be somewhat more pro religious. But but you compare

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<v Speaker 4>that to what the left has tried to do, which

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<v Speaker 4>is destroy any possibility that that that there's a standard

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<v Speaker 4>of goodness outside of the human self, and that the

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<v Speaker 4>each human being can essentially be his or her own God.

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<v Speaker 4>And I know that's really taking in a whole lot,

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<v Speaker 4>but I think that that's part of why we've seen

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<v Speaker 4>the destruction of any religious influence from the youngest possible ages.

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<v Speaker 4>What it really does matter.

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<v Speaker 3>Remember a few decades ago when the ACLU devoted enormous

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<v Speaker 3>energy to getting the words under God out of the pledge.

424
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:12.319
<v Speaker 3>And that's a you know, that's a good example, because

425
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.680
<v Speaker 3>the American conception of religious liberty did not preclude the

426
00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:20.680
<v Speaker 3>recognition of some divine authority, right, it was not a

427
00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:24.119
<v Speaker 3>violation of the separation of church and state to say

428
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.480
<v Speaker 3>there is a God. I mean, it's in the Declaration

429
00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:29.039
<v Speaker 3>of Independence, after all, Right, But as you say, Linda,

430
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:34.480
<v Speaker 3>the left has driven even this very minimal natural theology

431
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.960
<v Speaker 3>out of our public life, and it's very hard to

432
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.839
<v Speaker 3>sustain republican self government when that goes away.

433
00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:45.000
<v Speaker 4>Now, I just would mention it's a little bit off topic,

434
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.079
<v Speaker 4>but I wanted to talk about it a few weeks ago,

435
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:49.599
<v Speaker 4>and we just never got to it. And that is

436
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:53.839
<v Speaker 4>all of Right before Easter, there were lots and lots

437
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:58.200
<v Speaker 4>of news reports, news stories out there about how young

438
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:02.160
<v Speaker 4>people are sort of rejecting that nihilism and turning to

439
00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:05.200
<v Speaker 4>They were talking specifically in most of the stories I

440
00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:09.440
<v Speaker 4>heard about Catholicism, but much more traditional views of religion,

441
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.279
<v Speaker 4>not even like what was very popular you knew in

442
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:16.680
<v Speaker 4>the sixties. I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual, you know

443
00:23:16.759 --> 00:23:19.519
<v Speaker 4>that sort of thing. Anyway, I just I think that

444
00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:25.200
<v Speaker 4>the crisis we find ourselves in has probably caused a

445
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:27.400
<v Speaker 4>somewhat I don't know if i'd call it a reawakening,

446
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.400
<v Speaker 4>but it is interesting to see that some of that

447
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.200
<v Speaker 4>young people are sort of rejecting that nihilistic view will

448
00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:38.759
<v Speaker 4>to power of the world obviously not wholesale.

449
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.519
<v Speaker 2>But now the good news is John, you being absent

450
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:43.839
<v Speaker 2>today is listening and if his head hasn't.

451
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:47.759
<v Speaker 1>Exploded by now, he's surely reaching for some hemlock. That's good,

452
00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:51.279
<v Speaker 1>a right. Let's use that to pivot on to a

453
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:54.119
<v Speaker 1>couple other fun things. One is, I didn't get a

454
00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:55.559
<v Speaker 1>chance to reread.

455
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.960
<v Speaker 2>And assimilate your review of Laura Field's book or Michael's

456
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:02.400
<v Speaker 2>scorching review. So listeners, do you want to summarize the

457
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:04.519
<v Speaker 2>book briefly for listeners since we haven't mentioned it much,

458
00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:05.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't think right.

459
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:05.680
<v Speaker 1>Go ahead.

460
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:09.000
<v Speaker 3>So Laura Field is this left wing Straussian who studied

461
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:13.119
<v Speaker 3>with some Straussian scholars and then bounced around a little

462
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:15.079
<v Speaker 3>bit in academia, but then sort of found a home,

463
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.880
<v Speaker 3>as I say in my review, a self appointed inquisitor

464
00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:23.640
<v Speaker 3>writing for The Bulwark and other outlets, attacking all sorts

465
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:28.400
<v Speaker 3>of renegade opinions and excommunicating people from acceptable thought, in

466
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.839
<v Speaker 3>particular the Claremont Institute. She's now written and published a

467
00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:37.160
<v Speaker 3>book by I'm sorry to say, Princeton University Press called

468
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:42.440
<v Speaker 3>Furious Minds, which is a long, sustained, in many places,

469
00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:47.000
<v Speaker 3>quite nasty attack on what she calls the Maga intellectuals.

470
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:54.839
<v Speaker 3>And the whole point is to delegitimize and again excommunicate

471
00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:00.319
<v Speaker 3>all sorts of thinkers and institutions who do not bye

472
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:04.519
<v Speaker 3>by which he regards as acceptable liberal opinion. It's it's

473
00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:07.599
<v Speaker 3>really it's it's passed off as a work of scholarship

474
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:12.279
<v Speaker 3>published by a university press, but it's really does not

475
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:16.240
<v Speaker 3>engage in any kind of serious argument. It really cannot

476
00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:19.960
<v Speaker 3>deal with disagreement and good faith. Uh, it doesn't try

477
00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.400
<v Speaker 3>to understand people as they understand themselves. All the MAGA intellectuals,

478
00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:28.519
<v Speaker 3>you know are dismissed as racists and sexists and and

479
00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:32.559
<v Speaker 3>haters of liberal democracy. So it's really it's actually quite

480
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:33.480
<v Speaker 3>a disappointing.

481
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:35.440
<v Speaker 1>But well it's quite an ad hominem.

482
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean you you quote her in your review talking

483
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.440
<v Speaker 2>about Harry Jaffa that I find Jappa's later writings unreadable.

484
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:44.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's because she's too lazy to actually work through it.

485
00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:46.720
<v Speaker 2>And the other thing she mentioned, Yes, she picks on

486
00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:49.039
<v Speaker 2>our you know, on us and our friends, but she

487
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:52.240
<v Speaker 2>also picks on the postliberals, Patanine and.

488
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:54.960
<v Speaker 3>Rebewal, who's the and the national conservative convatives.

489
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Now, then you could have written, even from a critical

490
00:25:57.400 --> 00:25:59.680
<v Speaker 2>point of view, you could have written an interest somewhat

491
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.400
<v Speaker 2>interest book about their differences, and can.

492
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.480
<v Speaker 4>These guys understand them first well.

493
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, exactly right, or at least try even if you

494
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:09.880
<v Speaker 2>didn't understand them.

495
00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:11.640
<v Speaker 1>Very well, you could have at least tried. And there's

496
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:12.279
<v Speaker 1>not even.

497
00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Attempt to that because there are some clear tensions there, right,

498
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:17.839
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think we have serious disagreements with the

499
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.160
<v Speaker 2>post liberals, right.

500
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:21.359
<v Speaker 4>And I really I think it may be one of

501
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:24.200
<v Speaker 4>the most important questions right now we as we're thinking

502
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:28.559
<v Speaker 4>about the anniversary of the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary

503
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:31.119
<v Speaker 4>of the Declaration of Independence and if it even matters,

504
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:37.279
<v Speaker 4>who is it that can carry the torch forward? And

505
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:43.000
<v Speaker 4>it's not liberals at all, but the debates between conservatives

506
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:47.400
<v Speaker 4>about and mostly you know, our friends, about what is

507
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:52.519
<v Speaker 4>the appropriate way to understand the natural law basis of

508
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.880
<v Speaker 4>the Declaration of Independence that I think the future of

509
00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:57.119
<v Speaker 4>the country depends upon it.

510
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:01.359
<v Speaker 1>Now actually, now it just occurs to me that recurring

511
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:03.720
<v Speaker 1>briefly to our previous topic of the Pope. The post

512
00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:06.759
<v Speaker 1>liberals they love the Pope. They always do it, right,

513
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:07.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, because.

514
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.559
<v Speaker 2>They're they're serious Catholics, and so what are the end

515
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.240
<v Speaker 2>But they're also by by Trump. I think somewhat, so

516
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.000
<v Speaker 2>they must be having They're being very silent about this.

517
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:18.759
<v Speaker 1>I just realized as we're sitting here.

518
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:21.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I mean, watch one of the one of

519
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:25.480
<v Speaker 3>the really lamentable things about this book is she attacks

520
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.359
<v Speaker 3>people for contradictory reasons. I mean, she attacks the post

521
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:33.039
<v Speaker 3>liberals for neglecting the importance of Lockian protection of equal

522
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:35.759
<v Speaker 3>natural rights. But then you know, in the very next

523
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:41.720
<v Speaker 3>breath attacks Clermont for it supposedly hagiographic defense of America's

524
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:44.960
<v Speaker 3>the Lockian found it. So you know, she's not even

525
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:47.160
<v Speaker 3>consistent in her in her criticism.

526
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.799
<v Speaker 4>I think the only thing I found consistent is just

527
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:54.640
<v Speaker 4>that she has fully embraced most aspects of left wing

528
00:27:54.680 --> 00:28:02.559
<v Speaker 4>ideology and the argument that she's she's living. Her book

529
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.759
<v Speaker 4>is living proof of why women don't make good political philosophers.

530
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:10.480
<v Speaker 4>I'm sorry, but you can. I can be sexist in

531
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.440
<v Speaker 4>a way you two can't. You know, her book reminds

532
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:18.000
<v Speaker 4>me of a full length manuscript that is the functional

533
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:22.119
<v Speaker 4>equivalent of those women who who left got up and

534
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:24.799
<v Speaker 4>left in the middle of Larry Summer's speech at Harvard

535
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:28.240
<v Speaker 4>and and and you know said, I almost fainted. I

536
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:29.079
<v Speaker 4>was so upset.

537
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:31.559
<v Speaker 3>You know, you know, Mike's review Bring This brings this

538
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:34.640
<v Speaker 3>out much more than I than mine does. It's a

539
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:38.279
<v Speaker 3>fair criticism because she herself talks all about her psychological

540
00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:40.839
<v Speaker 3>state and her emotions and how she felt about this,

541
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:44.559
<v Speaker 3>that and the other thing. So she invites this criticism

542
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.160
<v Speaker 3>that she wrote this book as as an emotional woman,

543
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.559
<v Speaker 3>which is the point that that Mike makes in his review.

544
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:52.680
<v Speaker 2>But one of my favorite parts of Mike's review, and

545
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:55.000
<v Speaker 2>I go in for things like this is she refers

546
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.160
<v Speaker 2>to us as Claire Monter's.

547
00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:59.720
<v Speaker 1>As Mike points out, no one uses that.

548
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:05.440
<v Speaker 2>You can say clairemont conservative, but really we're Claire Monsters proudly.

549
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:07.759
<v Speaker 2>What's wrong with her? I mean that would seemed like

550
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:08.440
<v Speaker 2>a layup, but.

551
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:12.319
<v Speaker 1>No, that's not. That's how sort of okay.

552
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.640
<v Speaker 3>It's it's a kind of faux objectivity. I think that

553
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:14.920
<v Speaker 3>she's going for there.

554
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.759
<v Speaker 4>Right, Maybe yeah, she does. She does do that over

555
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:22.160
<v Speaker 4>and over again, pretend, Oh, look, I went to an

556
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:27.039
<v Speaker 4>AEI conference. I was once a right winger.

557
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, but that that one that's worth mentioning because it

558
00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:31.880
<v Speaker 2>wasn't just any old AI conference. It was a conference

559
00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:34.839
<v Speaker 2>to celebrate Harvey Mansfield. And she talked about Oh, I

560
00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:36.759
<v Speaker 2>couldn't wait to get out of the suppressive air.

561
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.680
<v Speaker 4>Seriously, I mean, and then then her nasty little comments

562
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.079
<v Speaker 4>about Harvey and his wife.

563
00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:46.519
<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, Mike picks up on that that is just

564
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:49.319
<v Speaker 2>his younger wife after his previous wife died of cancer.

565
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:51.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I mean talk about.

566
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:53.599
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Yeah, I mean she got the vapors from listening

567
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:56.640
<v Speaker 3>to these notorious right wing maniacs like Bill Crystal.

568
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.920
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, come on, I wonder.

569
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.119
<v Speaker 4>If I wonder she's some sort of re embraced Bill Crystal.

570
00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:06.279
<v Speaker 2>Probably, Oh, I think they've been on like podcasts and

571
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:10.200
<v Speaker 2>stuff together, right, right, it's a I mean, I know

572
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.599
<v Speaker 2>you've all I like him, but I would never confuse

573
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.119
<v Speaker 2>him with a firebrand, right, Usually when he goes in

574
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:16.200
<v Speaker 2>the room, the fires go out.

575
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:19.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and even Harvey himself is pretty conservative. He's also

576
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:23.799
<v Speaker 3>very genteel. You know, he never says anything really incendiary

577
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:26.079
<v Speaker 3>or over the line, although he has very strong opinion,

578
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:26.720
<v Speaker 3>so you know.

579
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:28.640
<v Speaker 4>Or if he says that, people don't understand it.

580
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:29.039
<v Speaker 1>Right.

581
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.599
<v Speaker 3>So if so, if a conference at AI in honor

582
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:36.200
<v Speaker 3>of Harvey Mansfield is you know, beyond the pale, that

583
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:37.960
<v Speaker 3>shows you where she's coming from.

584
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:40.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well that's probably all we need to say about that.

585
00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:46.240
<v Speaker 1>But well, let's put it this way. I have this vague.

586
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.720
<v Speaker 2>It's a vague idea that's not even an idea yet.

587
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:51.920
<v Speaker 2>It may better be a concept looking for an outline.

588
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:54.440
<v Speaker 2>But as what he Allen once put it, I think,

589
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:57.880
<v Speaker 2>and it's I'm thinking about some of the next generation

590
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:00.799
<v Speaker 2>of young thinkers, some of them Eustrassius pulled philosophers, some

591
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:04.319
<v Speaker 2>just decent thinkers and in other disciplines.

592
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:05.920
<v Speaker 1>And what I notice.

593
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:09.160
<v Speaker 2>About them is there's a kind of detachment from the

594
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:10.000
<v Speaker 2>crisis of the West.

595
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.160
<v Speaker 1>I'll put it that directly.

596
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:13.680
<v Speaker 2>It was very cute for us when we were coming

597
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.799
<v Speaker 2>along in the eighties because that was the climax of

598
00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:18.839
<v Speaker 2>the Cold War again, the nuclear freeze, the theological political

599
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:21.720
<v Speaker 2>problem we've already referred to with the pope and the bishops.

600
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:21.880
<v Speaker 1>And all the rest.

601
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:22.799
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

602
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:25.920
<v Speaker 1>And now I see a lot very smart. I like

603
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.799
<v Speaker 1>some of these younger guys. I'm not going to mention

604
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:29.319
<v Speaker 1>any names, but you know, we both know some of

605
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:30.519
<v Speaker 1>these people very well.

606
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.440
<v Speaker 2>And I think they're very smart. But they tend to

607
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:35.960
<v Speaker 2>remind me of Seth Bernardetti. They want to do sort

608
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:40.079
<v Speaker 2>of pure philosophical abstract Exte Jesus and texts. Not there's

609
00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:43.200
<v Speaker 2>anything wrong with that in and of itself, but there

610
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:46.359
<v Speaker 2>seems to be a lack of this. Well, Lucretia would

611
00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:48.920
<v Speaker 2>say thumos or famos whichever which.

612
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:54.000
<v Speaker 4>Do Yeah, I see themis, but I would before Glenn

613
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:57.079
<v Speaker 4>gives a serious answer to this, I would say that

614
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:02.039
<v Speaker 4>maybe they're just trying to distinguish themselves from Manisphere side

615
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:06.440
<v Speaker 4>of suppose that the crazy nutty right wing like the

616
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:12.119
<v Speaker 4>guy who got taken out. I don't remember some influencer,

617
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:15.160
<v Speaker 4>some Manisphere influencer, but if you read about some of

618
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:19.640
<v Speaker 4>those nutjob young men, do you know that that care.

619
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.359
<v Speaker 4>I can't say what the guy was saying when when

620
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.359
<v Speaker 4>somebody just punched him and took him out, but it

621
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:28.559
<v Speaker 4>was something along the lines of that. I'll say the

622
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:33.119
<v Speaker 4>last part, which is you shouldn't be putting your your

623
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:37.920
<v Speaker 4>man force, your manly life force into a sock, and

624
00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:41.880
<v Speaker 4>if you do, you should get the death penalty.

625
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.400
<v Speaker 2>Look, I do think we want to make a distinction

626
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.359
<v Speaker 2>between some of the people we call the alt right,

627
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:48.039
<v Speaker 2>or people like Athenian Stranger.

628
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:49.720
<v Speaker 1>We both know him a little bit.

629
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's very engaged he's very serious about what's wrong

630
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:54.920
<v Speaker 2>with things, and they're in the bodybuilding and masculinity.

631
00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:56.799
<v Speaker 1>I'm not thinking of them as much. I'm thinking of

632
00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:00.079
<v Speaker 1>the people who are sort of aloof from it.

633
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.640
<v Speaker 2>And partly I have actual serious interpretive questions to generated

634
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:04.960
<v Speaker 2>all this.

635
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.480
<v Speaker 1>But am I just taking crazy pills or I know

636
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:09.240
<v Speaker 1>what you're talking about?

637
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:12.240
<v Speaker 3>So I think in the case of the Straussians in particular,

638
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:16.279
<v Speaker 3>you know, they're too serious and they're too well educated

639
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:20.319
<v Speaker 3>to leap over into the BAP world, right, Yes, bronze

640
00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.759
<v Speaker 3>h pervert, which is a little juvenile and a little extreme.

641
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:28.319
<v Speaker 3>You know, they thought seriously about political questions. But I think,

642
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:31.200
<v Speaker 3>you know, I'm a little reluctant to say this, but

643
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:36.480
<v Speaker 3>I think their view is the West has declined so far.

644
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:41.480
<v Speaker 3>They're pessimistic about the possibility of any real political action

645
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.200
<v Speaker 3>informed by serious, thoughtful political philosophy, and so they retreat

646
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.680
<v Speaker 3>in a way into the study of texts. I mean,

647
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:51.000
<v Speaker 3>during the Cold War, the fight was real, you know,

648
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:53.559
<v Speaker 3>and by the way, you know, we won. It was

649
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:58.599
<v Speaker 3>a fight worth fighting. It was, you know, the seriousnessness

650
00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:02.200
<v Speaker 3>of it was evident. Now I think, you know, for

651
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:06.880
<v Speaker 3>anyone under forty you know, they never even experienced this directly.

652
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.880
<v Speaker 3>And you know, they've seen the decline in the culture,

653
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:12.880
<v Speaker 3>They've seen the disintegration of our political institutions. There's no

654
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:15.960
<v Speaker 3>clear external enemy to fight, and so I think that

655
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:20.039
<v Speaker 3>they just disengage from politics because they don't see a

656
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:24.360
<v Speaker 3>fight that they can bring their political philosophy background into.

657
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:30.119
<v Speaker 4>I remember reading a year or so ago an argument

658
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:35.519
<v Speaker 4>that said, these young people, because they've never experienced, say,

659
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:40.800
<v Speaker 4>the Reagan era, the Trumpet era is a bit chaotic,

660
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:45.199
<v Speaker 4>shall we say, But because they've never actually seen what

661
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:49.320
<v Speaker 4>I would call maybe good conservativism, They've never that there's

662
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:53.239
<v Speaker 4>nothing in politics that they can that they have experienced

663
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:56.320
<v Speaker 4>that they could embrace. It's much like what you're saying.

664
00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:59.840
<v Speaker 4>But it's also a lack of experience with any of

665
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:06.599
<v Speaker 4>those embrace you know, the conflict of the century kind

666
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:11.480
<v Speaker 4>of this Western civilization versus world annihilation, whatever it might be.

667
00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:15.199
<v Speaker 4>There aren't those great problems that they've ever had any

668
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:19.880
<v Speaker 4>experience fighting on behalf of or four or against right,

669
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:21.679
<v Speaker 4>and so they don't have that experience.

670
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:23.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think Trump has changed that a little. I mean,

671
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:26.960
<v Speaker 3>I do know quite a few Straussians who are more

672
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:30.199
<v Speaker 3>right wing than you'd suspect, and are even more supportive

673
00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:32.880
<v Speaker 3>of Trump than you might suspect, and keep that to

674
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:36.159
<v Speaker 3>themselves a little bit for various reasons. I think the

675
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.239
<v Speaker 3>phenomenon is these a lot of these people came to

676
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:41.199
<v Speaker 3>the age you might say, between Reagan and Trump, right,

677
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:43.800
<v Speaker 3>and so they came of age in the worst wishy

678
00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:46.199
<v Speaker 3>washy part of the Republic. And so they didn't see

679
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:50.079
<v Speaker 3>anything in American politics admirable or noble to attach themselves to,

680
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.960
<v Speaker 3>because all they saw was the wishy washy block way

681
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:55.639
<v Speaker 3>to put it. And so it's interesting, you know, a

682
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:58.400
<v Speaker 3>few years down the line, whether Trump will change that,

683
00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:01.400
<v Speaker 3>and if there'll be a turn response to the Trump phenomenon.

684
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well there's a Then also an interpretive question comes

685
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:06.440
<v Speaker 2>to mind, and this is another half forne thought, and

686
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure I'm even on the right track. But so,

687
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:12.679
<v Speaker 2>first of all, we're against radical historicism. We're against interpreting

688
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:13.400
<v Speaker 2>the thinkers of the.

689
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:18.320
<v Speaker 1>Past according to our own horizons today. Okay. On the

690
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:21.360
<v Speaker 1>other hand, I don't think Straus. I always have a

691
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:22.920
<v Speaker 1>hard time making in my mind how to express this.

692
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:25.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't think Strauss was against understanding the context. I

693
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:28.840
<v Speaker 2>mean especially the blatonic dialogue, so the setting is always.

694
00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:29.320
<v Speaker 1>Very sure, right.

695
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:33.119
<v Speaker 2>So it's not that that's a complaint I heard from

696
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:36.039
<v Speaker 2>well meaning, friendly people like Fred Siegel, a historian.

697
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:39.320
<v Speaker 1>He said, no, And you know, we've talked about Roger

698
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:40.559
<v Speaker 1>Scrutin this way too, right.

699
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:45.360
<v Speaker 2>They both say it just that methodology, not just esoteric writing,

700
00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:48.079
<v Speaker 2>but also just the isolation on the text, letting it

701
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:49.960
<v Speaker 2>speak for itself as a timeless truth.

702
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.119
<v Speaker 1>That seems a historical to me.

703
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.960
<v Speaker 2>And I'm thinking that that's not a correct understanding, I think,

704
00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:58.559
<v Speaker 2>but there is something to it to the extent that

705
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:00.840
<v Speaker 2>to what you just said.

706
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:02.760
<v Speaker 1>What strikes me is during those Cold.

707
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.760
<v Speaker 2>War years, there was an urgency of things that made

708
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.599
<v Speaker 2>an extra seriousness to our increase. They were necessarily going

709
00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:10.679
<v Speaker 2>to be more political in the high sense of the word,

710
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:13.639
<v Speaker 2>and there wasn't time to fiddle around with a.

711
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Couple of verses of sophocles about beauty or something right,

712
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:20.039
<v Speaker 1>And that seems to be this is the missing.

713
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Part of the soul of so many younger people who

714
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.480
<v Speaker 2>want to be intellectual or serious about political philosophy. I

715
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 2>don't know if I'm right about that, but it does

716
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:28.840
<v Speaker 2>mean that to what extent.

717
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:29.800
<v Speaker 1>Do we then look back.

718
00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:32.079
<v Speaker 2>At Strauss because look, I mean you read the autobiographical

719
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:35.440
<v Speaker 2>preface about it being a Jew in Weimar, Germany, and

720
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:37.719
<v Speaker 2>then all the things he talked in other words, I

721
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:38.519
<v Speaker 2>can't imagine.

722
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure you put Trowser a time machine.

723
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:44.280
<v Speaker 2>But I don't see him as successors writing something today

724
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:48.039
<v Speaker 2>like his introduction to the City in Man, which where

725
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:51.159
<v Speaker 2>the overlay of the Cold War was so central to

726
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.639
<v Speaker 2>it while he was transcending it in lots of movie.

727
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:55.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, there's a mouthful. Is that you're not in your head.

728
00:37:56.199 --> 00:37:59.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm not shaking your head, So I'm not making total nonsense.

729
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:00.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I think that's all true.

730
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.239
<v Speaker 3>And you know, I did a piece for Perspectives on

731
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:05.360
<v Speaker 3>political Science not that long ago, and it's not just

732
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:07.400
<v Speaker 3>the introduction of City Man. But then if you compare

733
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:10.599
<v Speaker 3>also the introduction to liberalism mantion in modern you can

734
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.480
<v Speaker 3>see a progression in Strauss's thought and he actually becomes

735
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.320
<v Speaker 3>a little bit more pessimistic about the crisis of the West,

736
00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:19.960
<v Speaker 3>and he's he's engaged in looking at policy issues. He

737
00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:26.280
<v Speaker 3>talks about contemporary political controversies. So it's funny how historicism

738
00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:30.239
<v Speaker 3>is so easily misunder It doesn't mean ignoring historical context.

739
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:30.880
<v Speaker 1>That's silly.

740
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.800
<v Speaker 3>The real thing is does the truth change according to right?

741
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:39.719
<v Speaker 3>Is the truth historically contingent? It doesn't mean ignoring I mean,

742
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:41.480
<v Speaker 3>one of the reasons I'm writing this book is I'm

743
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:44.719
<v Speaker 3>interested in the context. What's going on in Athens when

744
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:48.480
<v Speaker 3>Plato was writing, and that matters. The only real danger

745
00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:51.360
<v Speaker 3>is assuming that Plato couldn't have said anything true, or

746
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.639
<v Speaker 3>that whatever truth he discovered is you know, trapped in

747
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:59.079
<v Speaker 3>classical ethics. That's but it certainly doesn't. Yeah, that's the

748
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:02.440
<v Speaker 3>problem with the stories is it doesn't mean ignoring context

749
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:03.480
<v Speaker 3>in which things happens.

750
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:06.719
<v Speaker 4>Stress had always said the opposite, always said the opposite.

751
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:11.760
<v Speaker 4>But but if you cannot, if you cannot discover in

752
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:16.920
<v Speaker 4>ancient Athens that what might have been the factors that

753
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.719
<v Speaker 4>have that would have led ultimately to the rejection of

754
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:23.119
<v Speaker 4>the gods is the lawgivers of the city and all

755
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:25.800
<v Speaker 4>of that. What that meant, What I think that means

756
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:29.239
<v Speaker 4>for us today is then Athens doesn't matter because nothing,

757
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:32.159
<v Speaker 4>you know, it is historically contingent, and there is no

758
00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:35.360
<v Speaker 4>truth that we can learn from Athens and apply to today.

759
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:40.360
<v Speaker 4>But of course good Straussians know better than than coming

760
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:42.679
<v Speaker 4>to that conclusion easily, I guess, is the way I

761
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:47.239
<v Speaker 4>would say, because we otherwise, what's the point other than

762
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:51.360
<v Speaker 4>reminds me of the end of the Fukiyama's book, you know,

763
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:54.000
<v Speaker 4>where now that we've solved all the problems of history,

764
00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:57.119
<v Speaker 4>what do we do? We have these fancy Japanese tea setups,

765
00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:59.960
<v Speaker 4>and we just work to make sure every tiny detail

766
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:03.079
<v Speaker 4>it is right, because nothing else matters right. That's why

767
00:40:03.159 --> 00:40:07.440
<v Speaker 4>Athens matters right right. And you know, I'm patting you

768
00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:09.760
<v Speaker 4>on the back for doing it.

769
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:12.559
<v Speaker 3>Just a very prosaic observation, which you know all of

770
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:15.360
<v Speaker 3>your listeners have heard many times. But it's been a

771
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:18.280
<v Speaker 3>long time since we've had a real statesman in the West.

772
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:21.239
<v Speaker 3>You know, we tend to see Lincoln and Churchill as

773
00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:23.719
<v Speaker 3>coming from two vastly different worlds, but they're not that

774
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:28.360
<v Speaker 3>far apart in history. And you know, it's been many,

775
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:31.800
<v Speaker 3>many decades when we've had a statesman of that caliber.

776
00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:34.400
<v Speaker 3>And I think that also leads to a kind of

777
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:38.960
<v Speaker 3>disillusionment with politics. That amazing thing that Churchill wrote that

778
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:43.440
<v Speaker 3>Strauss wrote about Churchill, that he shows the political phenomena.

779
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:47.320
<v Speaker 3>He shows what meglosukia can mean. And when you don't

780
00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:51.199
<v Speaker 3>have any example of that in living memory, you know

781
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:52.079
<v Speaker 3>it affects people.

782
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:54.920
<v Speaker 4>But I would go one step further and say, what

783
00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:59.079
<v Speaker 4>distinguishes one group, Maybe it's the Western Staosians, I'm not

784
00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:05.320
<v Speaker 4>quite sure, from the other Straussians. Is the belief that

785
00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:08.320
<v Speaker 4>that that idea of statesmanship is in and of itself

786
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:11.320
<v Speaker 4>a matter of prudence. And you can embrace a Trump

787
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:18.000
<v Speaker 4>because only someone with Trump's what should we call them,

788
00:41:18.519 --> 00:41:24.760
<v Speaker 4>only Trump's chaos, only Trump's bomb bombastic nature, only his narcissism.

789
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:29.320
<v Speaker 4>In many ways, it would allow him to do what

790
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:30.480
<v Speaker 4>he's trying to do.

791
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:32.920
<v Speaker 1>You know something to that.

792
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:34.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's why I've compared him to de gaul

793
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:40.159
<v Speaker 2>a few times, similar personal characteristics. Right now, you said something, Oh,

794
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:42.440
<v Speaker 2>by the way you use the P word, there are

795
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:44.760
<v Speaker 2>three subjects banned when John's and our presence.

796
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:47.920
<v Speaker 1>The Clean Air Act, natural law, and prudence. We've done

797
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:49.760
<v Speaker 1>all three. So his head's now exploded for the third time.

798
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:51.360
<v Speaker 1>You said something a minute ago.

799
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.639
<v Speaker 2>You know Strauss commenting on contemporary issues. I know he

800
00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:57.920
<v Speaker 2>does a lot of that in the transcripts of his classes.

801
00:41:58.320 --> 00:41:59.840
<v Speaker 2>You've been reading a lot of those, I think, yes,

802
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:01.800
<v Speaker 2>have it just struck me that there could be a

803
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.679
<v Speaker 2>great article written about Strauss on the issues, drawing from.

804
00:42:04.519 --> 00:42:07.199
<v Speaker 3>All that I have thought about that, I mean the transcripts.

805
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.840
<v Speaker 3>You're wonderful he talks to even about television shows. Yeah,

806
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:12.760
<v Speaker 3>he was like, as you know, from gun Smoke last week,

807
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:18.039
<v Speaker 3>because he loved gun Smoke, Perry Mason and other things.

808
00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:19.000
<v Speaker 1>And he does bring that up.

809
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:21.559
<v Speaker 3>And it would be wonderful to call all those out

810
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:24.199
<v Speaker 3>and put them together and see. You know something I

811
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:28.480
<v Speaker 3>pointed out. Also, people forget Strauss signed a letter endorsing

812
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.840
<v Speaker 3>Richard Nixon in nineteen seventy two along with a few

813
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:35.119
<v Speaker 3>other so he was not quite entirely as removed from

814
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:37.039
<v Speaker 3>politics as some people seem to think.

815
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:38.280
<v Speaker 1>That's right, Yeah, and.

816
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:42.199
<v Speaker 4>You give him a little credit for some modesty. Also,

817
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:47.800
<v Speaker 4>I told Steve that the guy that I sent you

818
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:49.880
<v Speaker 4>the article about the from the guy who wrote the

819
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:52.480
<v Speaker 4>stuff about the decoration of Independence, that it was good

820
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:56.800
<v Speaker 4>marketing but otherwise nonsense. And I told you I was

821
00:42:56.840 --> 00:42:59.719
<v Speaker 4>offended that, you know, shut up, go fix your own

822
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:06.159
<v Speaker 4>good country and of London. I'm sorry, And you know,

823
00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:10.159
<v Speaker 4>so I think that to some extent, the idea that

824
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:15.800
<v Speaker 4>Strauss would have commented extensively on American politics would have

825
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:18.599
<v Speaker 4>been presumptuous. Does that make sense?

826
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Now?

827
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:22.800
<v Speaker 4>His best student, in my opinion, was probably the very

828
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:27.039
<v Speaker 4>best commentator on American politics ever. And I don't get

829
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:30.719
<v Speaker 4>the sense that Strauss ever disavowed him for that. But

830
00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:34.440
<v Speaker 4>is that an impossible view of the matter. There's nothing

831
00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:36.760
<v Speaker 4>he was going to be able to do about German politics,

832
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:40.280
<v Speaker 4>right but where it mattered, and he said it, he

833
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:42.800
<v Speaker 4>said it mattered, and you know, in natural rite and

834
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:47.400
<v Speaker 4>history it mattered. But for him to have been a

835
00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:52.880
<v Speaker 4>commentator about American politics I think would have been again

836
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:53.960
<v Speaker 4>a bit presumptuous.

837
00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:56.639
<v Speaker 1>Well maybe my sense of it, you think then?

838
00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:59.960
<v Speaker 2>My sense of it is he thought that he would

839
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:02.719
<v Speaker 2>more effective and exactly the mode that he operated, which

840
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:05.320
<v Speaker 2>was teaching right and making people think.

841
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:08.239
<v Speaker 1>And I think maybe he had some confidence, especially as

842
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:09.480
<v Speaker 1>time went on in the fifties that.

843
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.400
<v Speaker 2>There's a big debate ab whether he understood himself as

844
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:17.000
<v Speaker 2>founding a real school, and some people say he did,

845
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:18.920
<v Speaker 2>some people say didn't. But at some point he had

846
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:20.400
<v Speaker 2>to see that, Oh, I see how this is going

847
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.079
<v Speaker 2>to play out? Is the fact that you know, the

848
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:25.000
<v Speaker 2>book he was assembled of essays about his students, most

849
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.440
<v Speaker 2>of whom I think this is fair to say, concentrated

850
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:31.039
<v Speaker 2>on American politics, whereas he did very little of that himself.

851
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:31.559
<v Speaker 1>Right right, right now.

852
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:34.280
<v Speaker 3>It is surprising how many of the students were interested

853
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:37.119
<v Speaker 3>in America and wrote about it. Yeah, No, I think

854
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:41.559
<v Speaker 3>you're both right. Strauss certainly didn't make any sort of

855
00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:45.679
<v Speaker 3>principled stand, you know, opposing any discussion of policy issues.

856
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:48.480
<v Speaker 3>But he thought he had other fish to fry, and

857
00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:52.880
<v Speaker 3>that was rescuing political philosophy from the oblivion into which

858
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:55.360
<v Speaker 3>it had been cast by value free social science, right,

859
00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:57.719
<v Speaker 3>and that was the crucial thing to do. There's a

860
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:00.280
<v Speaker 3>wonderful passage I wish I could quote from mem in

861
00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:03.159
<v Speaker 3>one of his lectures, where he says that true Socratic

862
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:06.599
<v Speaker 3>philosophy is rising above the hurly burly and the vanity

863
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:10.960
<v Speaker 3>fair of every day and looking at the permanent questions.

864
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:12.519
<v Speaker 3>And I think that's what he wanted to direct his

865
00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:13.400
<v Speaker 3>students' minds.

866
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.639
<v Speaker 2>To let me ask you one closing question here, and

867
00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:18.000
<v Speaker 2>then we'll do a wrap up. And it gets back

868
00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:20.360
<v Speaker 2>to something that Lucretian I've been involved in lately, we

869
00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:23.039
<v Speaker 2>did this goofy little debate with a Saving Elephants blog

870
00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:26.079
<v Speaker 2>people on Burke and Strauss's chapter on Burke.

871
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.000
<v Speaker 1>What's your opinion about I don't really go through the

872
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:30.039
<v Speaker 1>whole argument of the chapter.

873
00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:32.320
<v Speaker 2>But why do you think he decided to pick on

874
00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:35.079
<v Speaker 2>Burke at the end of the book instead of sey

875
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Kant or somebody else.

876
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.400
<v Speaker 1>Because really it's kind of when he comes back to the.

877
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:41.559
<v Speaker 2>Subject in a certain way in the three Waves of

878
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:46.239
<v Speaker 2>Modernity and what is Political Philosophy, he drops.

879
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:46.360
<v Speaker 1>Burke at all.

880
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:50.079
<v Speaker 2>He already ever talks about Burke ever again. So why,

881
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what's your theory of that? Do you have

882
00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:53.679
<v Speaker 2>a theory or a rumor?

883
00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:57.239
<v Speaker 3>I've actually sometimes had this discussion with John Marine and

884
00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:01.360
<v Speaker 3>John's theory, which I'll offer with credit to him, with

885
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:04.199
<v Speaker 3>the proviso that I may not be giving it to justice.

886
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:07.559
<v Speaker 3>Is Strauss is pointing to the problem of conservatism, and

887
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:09.519
<v Speaker 3>that sounds like an odd thing to say. But what

888
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:12.679
<v Speaker 3>he means is am I allowed to use this abstract metaphor?

889
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:15.440
<v Speaker 1>The second cave I.

890
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:18.280
<v Speaker 3>Think Strauss is pointing to the crisis of the West

891
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:21.360
<v Speaker 3>is that we've descended into a kind of ideological politics.

892
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:25.840
<v Speaker 3>Both reason and revelation are under attack, and so he

893
00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:30.239
<v Speaker 3>points to Burke in the sense that we can't be

894
00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:35.079
<v Speaker 3>conservatives in the ordinary sense because the crisis of the

895
00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:40.360
<v Speaker 3>West means that we have to resurrect political philosophy. We

896
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:44.320
<v Speaker 3>we can't simply be in a mode of conservating, since

897
00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:47.400
<v Speaker 3>reason and revelation are inner attack. And so I think

898
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:50.960
<v Speaker 3>what he means is the Burkean mode is not adequate

899
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:52.360
<v Speaker 3>to the crisis of the time.

900
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:54.239
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I could go with that. I think I probably

901
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:54.840
<v Speaker 1>agree with that.

902
00:46:55.159 --> 00:46:56.599
<v Speaker 4>I definitely agree.

903
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:00.239
<v Speaker 1>With that. You have some baton here.

904
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:04.199
<v Speaker 4>You'll stop me before I get very far. Some politics

905
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:06.719
<v Speaker 4>we didn't get to, but our readers, our listeners will

906
00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:10.719
<v Speaker 4>be completely fluent in newsom reinstates the death penalty for

907
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:20.559
<v Speaker 4>anyone caught investigating fraud. I know that sometimes since I

908
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:24.480
<v Speaker 4>get them both now, it can be Mandonmie looking into

909
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:29.760
<v Speaker 4>whether he can taxt residents of other cities. The Somali

910
00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:32.519
<v Speaker 4>community of Minnesota would like to remind America that Wednesday

911
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:40.119
<v Speaker 4>was tax Day. Yeah, yeah, those are my favorite, though

912
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:42.960
<v Speaker 4>this one. You had to be have been paying a

913
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.800
<v Speaker 4>little attention to the news. Hi Barack yells Biden as

914
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:55.559
<v Speaker 4>car passes House with the lawn jockey. Sorry, okay Trump,

915
00:47:55.960 --> 00:48:03.440
<v Speaker 4>Trump complains he's being crucified for comparing himself to Jesus.

916
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:06.840
<v Speaker 4>And then this was my favorite. I told Steve, Catholics

917
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:10.639
<v Speaker 4>find common ground with Protestants in ignoring what the Pope says.

918
00:48:10.519 --> 00:48:11.199
<v Speaker 1>Master the time.

919
00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:16.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, without John here, I've got to do both parts

920
00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:18.679
<v Speaker 2>of the ending, which is always drank your whiskey and

921
00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:22.320
<v Speaker 2>eat buy more books because you should. And finally, you

922
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:24.719
<v Speaker 2>have been listening to The Three Whiskey Happy Hour, the

923
00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:29.760
<v Speaker 2>only podcast devoted to single molt whiskey, metaphysics and the

924
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:33.760
<v Speaker 2>higher end of Sydney Sweeney's studies. We're sponsored by the

925
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Cimitas Institute at the University of Texas at Austin, produced

926
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:40.039
<v Speaker 2>and hosted by Ricochet dot com. And now I'm supposed

927
00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:42.039
<v Speaker 2>to add on that it would be great if everyone

928
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:44.840
<v Speaker 2>went to Apple, iTunes or Spotify or wherever and gave

929
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:47.239
<v Speaker 2>us a five star review. And then the comment you

930
00:48:47.239 --> 00:48:49.159
<v Speaker 2>can share with us your favorite whiskey and we'll try

931
00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:50.920
<v Speaker 2>and read the best of them in a future episode.

932
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.920
<v Speaker 2>So until next week, and who knows what road trip

933
00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:56.360
<v Speaker 2>will be on. Then that's it for us this week.

934
00:48:56.360 --> 00:49:00.159
<v Speaker 2>By everybody, and.

935
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:05.239
<v Speaker 3>Leave the gets in a child bringing gets him them

936
00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:08.440
<v Speaker 3>say that sorry kids back there.

937
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:28.159
<v Speaker 2>And Ricochet join the conversation.

938
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:29.159
<v Speaker 3>M hm