WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:08.359 With Laurent's Segeland from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin. 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:10.720 This is redefining. 3 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:14.080 Energy today, I really find energy. What I thought we 4 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:17.719 would talk about immobility, and we ended up talking about 5 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:23.239 energy security because my guest was Christian Ruby, a Secretary 6 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:25.199 General of your electric. 7 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.440 Yeah, and I'm sorry I missed this, but I will 8 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:31.679 say that I did have a similar conversation with Christian 9 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:35.079 a few weeks ago at the Munich Security Conference. So 10 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:38.719 from looking forward to actually recap with you the conversation 11 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:41.240 and give you my little bit of an idea and 12 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:41.920 viewers on it. 13 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:46.960 Okay, let's bring Christian in the show. Christian, welcome to 14 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:47.399 the show. 15 00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:48.640 Thank you very much. 16 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.759 But it's your third time and every time it's just 17 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:55.479 get better and better. So today we're going to talk 18 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:58.600 about energy security and immobility and you're going to kind 19 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:03.280 of explain how it's so connected. But probably start with 20 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:06.159 your trip in Ukraine and what have you seen there 21 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:08.359 with our friends and colleagues from d Tech. 22 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:13.560 Yes, a month ago I went to visit our colleagues 23 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:17.319 from d Tech and to see what operations of the 24 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:22.000 electricity system look like in a war zone. And I 25 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.959 got to say that was a genuinely humbling and very 26 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:31.879 inspiring experience. We essentially came into Ukraine and had a 27 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:34.480 mission to inspect the power plant that has been hit 28 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.480 more than a dozen times throughout this war by bombardments, 29 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:41.599 and it really gave us a taste of what these 30 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:46.359 people are are doing. So immediately on arrival at the site, 31 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.959 the air alarms go off. We get the intel that 32 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:53.560 Make thirty one's with Kinsel missiles have left a base 33 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.239 in Russia and could be headed towards this power plant. 34 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.560 So we have to rush towards the bomb shelter together 35 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:03.840 with the other employees from the plant, and on the 36 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:07.840 way there we see convo pickup trucks with roof mounted 37 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.120 air defense guns that are on their way to positions 38 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.960 in order to try to shoot down any aggressor that 39 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:18.159 might be coming. And what was striking about that scene was, 40 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:22.159 on the one hand, the seriousness of what was going on, 41 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:25.319 on the other hand, the fact that this was everyday life. 42 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:29.439 People were proceeding to the shelter, they had their smartphones out, 43 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:33.280 We're texting with friends and family. But it was, in quotation, 44 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:36.800 marked normal event in a day in the life of 45 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:41.520 a Ukrainian power engineer, So moving on to the side. 46 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:45.039 Once the air alarm had been called off, we went 47 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.680 inside the power plant and as I said, it had 48 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.400 been hit some twelve times or more throughout the last 49 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:54.919 three years, and the destruction on this side was just incredible. 50 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:59.439 Windows and walls were missing, replaced with blue tree. In 51 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:03.039 many ocare agents, the walls had been completely destroyed. In 52 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:06.360 some places the roof was missing. There were two units 53 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:10.039 that have been struck in the last bombardment completely destroyed, 54 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:14.599 and outside the pylons of the transmission lines wrought out 55 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:19.159 in grotesque shapes from explosions of incoming drones. So it 56 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:24.080 was really sort of a Dantean infernal image that met 57 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:26.639 us on the one hand, and on the other hand, 58 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:31.360 you just had this quiet, persistent determination of the people 59 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:36.759 working there welding, removing rubble from the floor, putting in 60 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:40.120 interim solutions at the best of their ability, and just 61 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:43.280 making this work in order to keep the power flowing 62 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.000 and keep the society going in the midst of this 63 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:50.159 brutal and unnecessary attack from the Russians. So to see 64 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:52.560 them how they coped and also to see how they 65 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:57.000 insist on having an even constructive and positive attitude in 66 00:03:57.080 --> 00:03:59.360 the midst of this was really really inspiring. 67 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:06.199 The Ukian network is now connected with the European network, 68 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:09.400 and also we had in recent weeks the old Baltic 69 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:13.400 system managed to plug off from the Soviet one, and 70 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:17.639 that really embodies that report you put out last months 71 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:23.759 really finding energy Security excellent titled can you speak more 72 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:27.600 about this now approach around energy security of what your 73 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:30.319 electric is doing and what is it proposing. 74 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:35.480 Absolutely so, we launched our new flagship study about energy 75 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.959 security and the age of electricity at the Munich Security 76 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:43.639 Conference a couple of weeks ago, and essentially this report 77 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:47.399 starts from the fact that Europe has been almost in 78 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:51.040 this kind of harket of time for the last three decades. 79 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.920 We've essentially been on a vacation from world history in 80 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:58.120 the last thirty years, where we've enjoyed, on the one hand, 81 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:02.319 very cheap supplies of fossil fuels from Russia and others, 82 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:06.160 and on the other hand enjoyed very cheap security provided 83 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:11.759 by NATO and our Transatlantic alliance. Now we're in a 84 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:15.480 new situation in the last three years where these things 85 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:20.480 have changed very rapidly. We can no longer rely to 86 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:24.759 the same extent on historical alliances. We can no longer 87 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:29.519 rely on one or a few supplies of fossil fuels, 88 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:32.800 first of all, because we want to decarbonize. Secondly, because 89 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:37.839 they've proven unreliable and therefore we need to enter into 90 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:41.120 a new thinking about energy security. And this is what 91 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:44.480 we call the Age of Electricity, one where we double 92 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:49.600 down in Europe on our indigenous resource, which is homegrown 93 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:55.319 clean electricity. The core of this is to electrify society faster, 94 00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:00.839 but it also means that when society becomes more reliant 95 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:05.079 on electricity, it is really crucial that electricity is reliable 96 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:09.279 and that has implications for the way we design the system, 97 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.600 both when it comes to the sources of generation, but 98 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.360 also very much when it comes to the sources of 99 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.040 flexibility and the infrastructure that we build. So this new 100 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:25.439 paradigm of doubling down on electrification of society and stabilizing 101 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:30.079 and building a more resilient electricity system, that's really the 102 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:32.319 vision that we're putting forward with this new study. 103 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:35.519 And we've said also in Ireland, almost a thought of 104 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.759 the greed going down because of what is it, hurricane 105 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:43.319 or tempest and It's very important that we explained that 106 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.319 direcricy system is a community and you know, everybody is 107 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:52.199 supporting each other. It goes much beyond the nation's sometimes 108 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:53.120 a petty interest. 109 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:57.040 Absolutely, and essentially what we're trying to show in this 110 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:00.560 report is that not only sort of the big picture thinking, 111 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:04.480 but also the more detailed metrics and the way we plan, 112 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:08.920 invest and operate the system needs to change because we're 113 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:13.240 facing a completely different challenge landscape. The new normal for 114 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.959 the electricity sector is that we have hot wars going on. 115 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:23.319 We have cyber attacks on our sector, we see hybrid 116 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:29.600 war style attacks on the system, we see increase in spionage, 117 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:33.439 and we have the constant threat of extreme weather events 118 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:38.000 that is becoming ever more frequent. So we need to 119 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:41.959 essentially take a new approach when we operate the system. 120 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:46.120 We need to start planning for the unexpected. We need 121 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:49.000 to invest much more in resilience, and then we need 122 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:52.480 to operate both with efficiency but also with an increased 123 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:55.680 situational awareness as we call it. We need to be 124 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.839 more aware of what's going on around us. That requires 125 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:02.040 people to take a different type of approach to their work. 126 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:06.079 They need to do exercises. For these extreme situations, they 127 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:09.519 need to be in closer contact with authorities and basically 128 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.839 report unusual events going on around the plants. It is 129 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.720 a new approach, it is a different way of going 130 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:19.920 to work, and it's a different way of planning and 131 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:21.879 investing in the system. 132 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:25.120 Yeah. And of course also recently we had the Russians 133 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:28.160 and the Chinese reaping up cables in the Baltic Sea, 134 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:33.159 which frankly is despeakable. In the law of the sea 135 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.000 of the eighteenth century, the captain would be just hanger 136 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:38.840 on the highest mast and that would give a lesson. 137 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:41.879 Sometimes I wonder if in these actors, as you say, 138 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:46.480 stealth war or semi war, makes sense to use civil 139 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:49.679 laws for those type of things which are blatant to 140 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.399 attack on our existence. 141 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.679 Absolutely, it's a security conundrum that power engineers are not 142 00:08:56.919 --> 00:08:59.759 used to deal with. You can say even it's a 143 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:03.480 bit above our pay grade, but it's something that we're 144 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:05.639 forced now to deal with. And the way we need 145 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.039 to deal with this is to have a different type 146 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:12.399 of contact with authorities. We need to have a military 147 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.600 course of action on this or security course of action 148 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:19.080 on this, and we need to have an operational engineering 149 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:22.039 course of action. But if we speak first about the 150 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.600 engineering challenge here, it's clear that the infrastructure and the 151 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.039 system needs to be designed in a different way where 152 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:34.399 we have less examples of a single point of failure, 153 00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:38.200 where we have more redundancy in the system, and also 154 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:42.559 where we equip the critical infrastructure with sensors and alarm 155 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:47.279 systems that allow us to be able to detect early 156 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:51.960 such attacks or attempts at at sabotage. On the security 157 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:55.039 side of this, NATO has recently put in place and 158 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:58.080 new initiative and the Baltic Sea, and I would say 159 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:01.879 this is really something that is developing as we speak. 160 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:06.039 There needs to be a fine balance between taking decisive 161 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:10.919 action against such attacks, on the other hand, assessing how 162 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:15.440 those actions affect the broader security situation and to what 163 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:20.120 extent they cause an escalation of the conflict. The practice 164 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.039 that has now been established is to essentially board and 165 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:26.759 in some cases seize ships that are under suspicion, and 166 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:30.159 I think this can be an effective step. Also, there's 167 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:34.000 been some first legal analysis looking into how it can 168 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:37.960 be dealt with from a legal perspective. Can you use, 169 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.960 for instance, environmental law to basically seize these ships or 170 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.960 can you use other types of legal requirements to make 171 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:50.720 sure that you do then necessary? From security perspective, this 172 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.200 is a very new situation that we've not been used 173 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:55.960 to in the last thirty years. So most of the 174 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:58.600 people employed in the sector today just don't have this 175 00:10:58.720 --> 00:10:59.639 type of opunience. 176 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:04.480 Okay, so that was a bit grim. Let's probably pivot 177 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:09.320 to something a bit more joyful, which is immobility. You 178 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:14.919 had a few weeks ago this extraordinary gathering in Brossers 179 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.399 to talk about immobility. So what are the main takeaways? 180 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.399 Yeah, maybe to make the connection to the security piece. 181 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.759 Of course, immobility the transition to an electric transport sector 182 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.720 in Europe is part of this challenge we're facing to 183 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:33.120 have a much more electric society, which again requires us 184 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.399 to have a very reliable system. The good news here 185 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:41.320 is that actually if we activate the fleet of electric cars, 186 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.799 it can really do a significant contribution to stabilizing the system. 187 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.639 Once we have all those millions of electric cars out 188 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:54.159 there with their batteries, they have the opportunity and the 189 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:58.960 potential to stabilize the electricity system much more than is 190 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:02.720 the case today. Because, as you know, we're moving into 191 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:06.120 a much more renewable future where we have issues with 192 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:09.240 highs and lows in the system, and this is where 193 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:12.200 a big fleet of batteries can come in. What we 194 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.559 need in order to activate those batteries for the better 195 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.960 of the system and for the benefit of the customer, 196 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:21.480 by the way, is to have proper frameworks in place 197 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.919 that allow us to buy and sell electricity much easier 198 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.399 than it is today, sell it back to the grid 199 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:31.000 a so called bt G technology, so that when the 200 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:35.360 cars are idle, they actually actively contribute to the system 201 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:39.159 stabilization and get remunerated for that service. So that's what 202 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:41.480 we're showing in that report, and what's really interesting is 203 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:46.120 that the cost savings for the consumer are very very significant. 204 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:49.440 Compared to buying a fossil fuel as you be today, 205 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:52.679 you can save up to a quarter of the total 206 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.480 cost of ownership if we have the right systems in 207 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:59.480 place and people are able to actively flex with their batteries, 208 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.519 very significant saving for a normal family. 209 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:08.559 What made that move to VTG possible is the podcast 210 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:12.320 done in batteries, Because I remember five years ago when 211 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:17.320 that theme started to emerge, the batteries could do three 212 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.279 thousand cycles, four thousand cycles. So of course the O 213 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:23.759 and m's were a bit reluctant because you know, they 214 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:27.320 were afraid it would arm the battery. But now the 215 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.080 batteries I'm investing in two they have fifteen thousand cycles, 216 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:34.559 so you know, plug into the grid is not gonna 217 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:37.720 arm the battery in any shape or forming. The battery 218 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:40.120 is still going to be around when the car's gone. 219 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:45.240 The advancement in batteries allows that old VTG to come 220 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:48.519 back into the scenario, and I guess that means, you know, 221 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.960 double flow, but detail is there. There's a lot of startups, 222 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.840 you know, a lot of very intellgent people are working 223 00:13:55.879 --> 00:14:00.320 around it. So that looks impossible a five years ago, 224 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.000 and now it looks kind of doable, and of course 225 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.360 going to take time and you need to build standards 226 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.120 and do sumple things. But I think it's very helpful 227 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:12.480 for everybody that we'll be able to start integrating the 228 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:16.919 immobility as an extension of the grid. 229 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:21.080 What's good news is that technologically speaking, from the perspective 230 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.960 of the battery, this is possible with today's technology, and 231 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:29.159 presumably even more feasible as we move towards twenty thirty 232 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.679 What we really need to do is to unlock this potential, 233 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:36.159 and that's going to require a few changes across the board. 234 00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:39.039 What we see today when it comes to the cars 235 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.360 coming to market is that they're not all of them 236 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:45.600 V to G enabled, So there needs to be a 237 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.399 step change on the side of the OEMs to sort 238 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.639 of make this a standard in the cars that they 239 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.519 put out. Of course, that also comes with a little markup. 240 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:56.240 The second thing that needs to happen is that we 241 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.159 need to prepare the system better for this and have 242 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.600 a proper frame work for this new type of flexibility, 243 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:05.960 because it is very different from the distance we had 244 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:11.600 in the past, which were about transporting centrally generated electricity 245 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.639 all the way one way to the customer. What we 246 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:18.080 have today is a much more more nimble system and 247 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.399 one that has much more complex power flows. And the 248 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:27.759 system and the political framework, the remuneration frameworks need to 249 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:30.559 be there in order for people to have the incentives 250 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.960 to do it. So we need stuff like local flexibility markets. 251 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:37.200 It would be helpful with a framework for aggregators that 252 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:41.679 could monetize a whole fleet of cars, for instance. So 253 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:44.639 all these nitty gritty details need to come in place, 254 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.759 and this is what we're talking with policymakers and brousses 255 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:52.399 about in capitals to make sure that we accelerate the 256 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:56.039 implementation of a lot of legislation that's in fact already there. 257 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:00.000 So the potential is there, the legislation is in principle there. 258 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:04.519 Now it's about making it happen and then incentivizing consumers 259 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:06.360 to take up this light challenge. 260 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:09.840 Appristian, Well, I'm not going to s enthusiastic, but this 261 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:13.279 is great that we managed to start to have autistic 262 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:18.240 approach where energy security and immobility are about to do 263 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.440 the same debate and some solutions is going to emerge 264 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:24.440 so they can feed on each other. What's the way 265 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:26.000 forward for your ectric? 266 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.200 What's really interesting is that link between this new flex 267 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.440 potential and then the bigger system that we described in 268 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.000 our new Energy Security Report. And what's really important to 269 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.159 understand here is that when it comes to the flexibility 270 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:44.080 challenges that we're facing going forward, we have to take 271 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:47.559 a very pragmatic and honest approach because it's really going 272 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.039 to have to be an all of the above approach 273 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:53.480 if we want to meet the flexibility needs of the future. 274 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.279 In our report, we estimate the twenty thirty potential of 275 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:00.679 eed flexing for the system to be around four percent. 276 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:04.640 What we need by twenty thirty is a tripling of 277 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:08.079 flex capacities on a daily basis. So what that means 278 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:11.920 is that while doing this piece, we need to ramp 279 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:16.160 up every single other source of non fossil flexibility that 280 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:20.240 we have available. Otherwise we're not going to succeed. And 281 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.640 this is the reality that we're looking into when it 282 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.279 comes to the energy security paradigm that we're moving into. 283 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:32.160 I believe that the new reality that we're in forces 284 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:36.119 us to really deploy very pragmatic and honest thinking about 285 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:40.359 this because in this new and more electric world, the 286 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:45.559 reliability of our system is directly linked to the functioning 287 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:50.480 of our metro systems, of our payment systems, of the 288 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:54.400 electric equipment and hospitals, but also our cars, our heat pumps, 289 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.680 et cetera, et cetera. So it's really really crucial that 290 00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:59.440 we take seriously the fact that the system needs to 291 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:03.799 work every single day, it needs to be sufficiently flexible 292 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:07.839 every single day, and therefore this transition towards the new 293 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.160 sources of flexibility needs to be handled with great care 294 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:15.519 taking into account the existing sources of flexibility on the system, 295 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:17.480 and then of course we need to think out of 296 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.319 the box and see where we can interconnect in new ways, 297 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.720 where we can connect our markets to others in new ways, 298 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:30.559 and also connect the dots in Europe better with stronger infrastructure. 299 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:34.559 And of course the Transatlantic cable. That's my mission, that's 300 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:37.759 my colling, and I'm very glad that your Electric has 301 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.839 invited us at your power submitting June to present our 302 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:46.000 latest development. Christian, thank you so much for coming on 303 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.319 the show, and at Redefending Energy we're a big fan 304 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.960 of your electrics work, so keep on the break work. 305 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:53.880 Thank you very much, pleasure to be here. 306 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:57.279 And as your security is back with a bang. 307 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:01.400 Oh yeah, you're the Munich Energy. So what did you 308 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:03.400 hear beside the cables? 309 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.920 And there was a few things that struck me. One 310 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:11.359 was listening to a CEO European utility turn around and 311 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.799 say that there are daily attacks by the Russian on 312 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:20.319 his country's power system, daily attacks, and that he has 313 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:24.359 weekly meetings with the head of security services, the head 314 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.680 of the army and the head of the police. That 315 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:32.240 tells you everything you wrong. But I will add to it. 316 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.720 It's all great. If North Stream goes out, if your 317 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:38.000 electricity system goes out, it's sort of game over for 318 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:41.440 a large city. And so that's energy security. Energy security 319 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.640 is it's much more important than it was before because 320 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:49.599 of the fact that electricity is our critical energy source. 321 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.559 We cannot do anything without it. And I think I've 322 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:54.960 said to you, I listen, I've lived in Ireland here 323 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:59.759 through what was a blackout for one third of the country. True, 324 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.160 I call it high winds, you call it climate risks. 325 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:05.920 Not pleasant, especially when you have a digital economy, and 326 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:09.000 certainly you cannot use your mobile phone to pay for anything, 327 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:12.000 and in fact, you can't even load up with diesel 328 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:16.319 or oil or gas because guess what, the electro pumps 329 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:19.079 which run electrocity don't work right and new ones can't 330 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.240 pay for it. So energy security is back on the bank. 331 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.079 And I really like the conversation because it's all encompassing. 332 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:33.240 It's a cybersecurity, as you said, and it's really flexibility, 333 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:35.839 which is a world that do not appear two years ago, 334 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.839 and now it's on everybody's mouth. Look, the good news 335 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:42.759 is number one, the batteries are developing extremely fast. They're 336 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:46.240 getting cheaper, they're getting better and of course this all 337 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.279 planned at European level is the V two G, which 338 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.839 is vehicle to grid, which means that within ten years 339 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:57.160 we will be able to use some not all, but 340 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:01.680 some of those batteries on will to support the grid. 341 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:03.880 But also there's going to be a lot of digital 342 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:09.400 because if we electrify our eating system, the eating system 343 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.720 of a kind of latency. If a smart tumble stat 344 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.920 you know, you don't need to power exactly at peak. 345 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:19.000 So it's going to be all of the above. And 346 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:22.319 of course at the end we talk about interconnection, more interconnection, 347 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:25.880 we talk about the transactionenty cable and is in favor. 348 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:31.880 It's just a rainbow of solutions that's going to bring 349 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.720 energy security through resiliency and flexibility. 350 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:37.359 I think the key word is resilience. We need to 351 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:39.680 build a resilient system. And I tell you we need 352 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:41.119 to just put our hands up and say we don't 353 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:44.680 have a resilient electricity system. And we don't. And as 354 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:47.640 I said, that example in Ireland shows me that we don't. 355 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:52.400 Climate risks as well as geopolitical risks. They're not going 356 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.559 down anytime, so they're going in the other direction. So 357 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.880 you have to deal with those risks promptly because it's 358 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:03.480 not pleasant to have no electricity, right, it's not. And 359 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:05.359 that's actually my message to everyone. And by the way, 360 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:07.440 it's very good at Christian Is also they're saying the 361 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:10.079 same thing. They think, guys, we need to wake up here, 362 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:14.079 We need to really really invest and prepare for the worst. 363 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:15.480 That's the world we live in. 364 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:20.400 Yeah, I mean, it's incredible how the zeitgeist has changed 365 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:24.039 in the past three years. Three years of decombonization was 366 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:28.599 older rage and now it's okay. It's energy security and 367 00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:35.319 residency with dicambonization as a side effect, positive side effect, 368 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:36.519 but as a side effect. 369 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:37.319 Yeah. 370 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.079 And I would add to that is that climate change 371 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.160 risk is now a reality. It's not just about high 372 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:48.240 winds in the West of Ireland. It's also declining water 373 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.480 levels and rivers, which impacts you know, the ability to 374 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.000 cool nuclear power stations for example. So it's far reaching 375 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.440 what we're talking about here, and we really now need 376 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:00.400 to think about how do we build our energies so 377 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:04.359 that it is resilient to withstand climate risk going forward. 378 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.960 I would use the example you talked about vehicle to 379 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.559 grid earlier on if you're talking about actually showdly come 380 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:12.880 up with solutions pretty quickly. The lovely thing about it 381 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:17.039 an electric vehicle is it's a battery on wheels. All right, 382 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.680 So guess what if you're afraid of your mobile network 383 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:22.799 going out because guess what it doesn't have electricity, Well, 384 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.680 why wouldn't you open up the area around the world 385 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:28.839 wild Tower to ev charging so that in the worst 386 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:30.400 case scenario, Guess what you can do? You can use 387 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.200 that battery as a backup, PA. But I can do 388 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:35.000 the same my home. And that's actually where we're going. 389 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.039 Because you know, to trying to go and build all 390 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:41.279 the infrastructure in and around climate risk, it's going to 391 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.160 be expensive and going to take a lot of time. 392 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:47.480 But actually, if you add existing infrastructure that's been bought 393 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:50.319 and allow that to be part of the system, you 394 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:53.720 actually lower the cost and you increase the resilience. And 395 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:56.720 again I would say the exact same thing if I'm 396 00:23:56.839 --> 00:23:58.960 in a in a war situation. You want to have 397 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:04.519 decentral lives. Energy solutions and mobile batteries are a huge, 398 00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:05.279 big part of. 399 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:11.119 That solution, right, absolutely, well, Joab, we thank Christian for 400 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.759 coming on the show. We support your electric everything they do. 401 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.759