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<v Speaker 1>We're rounding up our week delving into a controversial topic

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<v Speaker 1>in the gaming world. A group of Steam users has

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<v Speaker 1>launched an anti woke list, categorizing games based on their

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<v Speaker 1>perceived woke content. With about sixteen hundred members, this group

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<v Speaker 1>aims to steer gamers away from titles they believe push

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<v Speaker 1>political agendas, often focusing on tags like LGBTQ plus representation

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<v Speaker 1>or strong female characters. While some celebrate this initiative as

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<v Speaker 1>a consumer's right to know, others criticize it as overly

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<v Speaker 1>broad and reductive, potentially stifling creativity in game design. What

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<v Speaker 1>does the divide say about the intersection of gaming culture

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<v Speaker 1>and identity. Join us as we unpack the complexities on

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<v Speaker 1>this issue from a skeptical humanist perspective. The story is

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<v Speaker 1>from Dual Shockers by Abdullah to care to Cretty, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>so sorry, I'm going to do that again, Thanks Glenn.

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<v Speaker 1>This story. This story is from Dual Shockers by Abdullah

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<v Speaker 1>out to Kreti on September ninth, twenty twenty four, and

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<v Speaker 1>my first question, I'm coming to you Aja, as the

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<v Speaker 1>other resident strong female character on this particular broadcast. How

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<v Speaker 1>can gamers balance the desire for a transparency with the

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<v Speaker 1>need for inclusive storytelling.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, some of the group's critics were stating that

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<v Speaker 2>it is a consumer's right to know exactly what they're by,

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<v Speaker 2>and as you said earlier, right, everybody deserves to know.

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<v Speaker 2>And as this turf as I am by some of

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<v Speaker 2>the wording in these reviews, I have to play devil's

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<v Speaker 2>advocate here and admit that I kind of agree. I

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<v Speaker 2>think the article states that ultimately games are media with

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<v Speaker 2>messages to convey, and no company should be shy about

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<v Speaker 2>its messages, right, but users should also be free to

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<v Speaker 2>analyze and interact critically with narratives and mechanics. But that

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<v Speaker 2>was the quote that they said about that, And I

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<v Speaker 2>am a firm believer in freedom of speech, even when

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<v Speaker 2>I disagree with someone's statements or ideas that might be

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<v Speaker 2>hateful or harmful. Although we can clearly draw a line

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<v Speaker 2>on what is simply hateful and what can lead to,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, physical or real tangible harm. I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>that censorship is dissolution to preventing people from having hateful beliefs,

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<v Speaker 2>but rather using our own communication skills to engage people

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<v Speaker 2>in discussions and encourage them to use critical thinking in

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<v Speaker 2>order to learn to grow and to adjust the world

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<v Speaker 2>years to the society that we live in today. We

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<v Speaker 2>can remove hate by helping people understand why it's wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>not by forcing them to hide it through censorship. That

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<v Speaker 2>would just be sweeping it under the world, and it

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<v Speaker 2>is not helpful in destroying hate from its root.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I was just thinking about why you were talking,

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<v Speaker 1>especially when we are talking about free speech, right, and

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that we've also talked about a

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<v Speaker 1>lot on nonprofits is pervasive book banning, especially if the

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<v Speaker 1>content happens to be like these gamers are talking about

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<v Speaker 1>two woke and all right, and actually they find it

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<v Speaker 1>like questionable content that should be in school libraries, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And it seems like that we're almost getting to the

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<v Speaker 1>point where we're pushing this same idea on other media

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<v Speaker 1>like games, right. And and even if like games happen

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<v Speaker 1>to seem to be too woke, strong female characters that

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<v Speaker 1>they were saying previously, or even if they could be

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<v Speaker 1>kind of hateful, I don't necessarily believe they should be

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<v Speaker 1>banned or censored. I think that, you know, people should

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<v Speaker 1>be able to make the decisions themselves. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>they should actually have like a familiarity with the content itself,

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<v Speaker 1>but that's only so that you can be informed on

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to buy it or not. But as

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<v Speaker 1>far as like trying to slap some type of label

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<v Speaker 1>that this is something that you shouldn't be able to

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<v Speaker 1>get because it's dis orces that I don't really agree

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<v Speaker 1>with that. But you know, Scott, I want to know,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, going back to this whole thing about woke,

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<v Speaker 1>like how do you define woke in context of media?

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<v Speaker 1>And should that? You know?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, like it's how much you got right?

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<v Speaker 1>Right? What do you mean by that?

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<v Speaker 3>You know what I'm saying?

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<v Speaker 1>Like, you know, I mean like because like I have,

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<v Speaker 1>I like my own idea, like you know, what is woke,

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<v Speaker 1>especially since like that's a term that I've used, like

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<v Speaker 1>for a very long time. But you know, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's turned and morphed into this whole different thing that

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<v Speaker 1>has been completely politicized and I think is stupid. But

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<v Speaker 1>how do we define it in context of media? And

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<v Speaker 1>should that definition be open to interpretation?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean I don't see how it could not

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<v Speaker 3>be open to interpretation. I mean all languages like that,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, people use words different ways and so but yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's it's it can be it can be

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<v Speaker 3>tricky navigating this woke, you know, movement, or the anti

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<v Speaker 3>woke movement. I mean, I would just describe it as

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<v Speaker 3>just what it says, if you're woke, you're aware of things.

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<v Speaker 3>You're aware of the impact of your actions and your

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<v Speaker 3>beliefs and and what you say on other people and

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<v Speaker 3>that kind of thing. And perhaps it's going the extra

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<v Speaker 3>step in assuming that maybe you care about how other

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<v Speaker 3>people you know, the results of things that you do

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<v Speaker 3>or say or be or that kind of thing. And so,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, to me, it seems obvious that's what woke mean.

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<v Speaker 3>That's why it seems odd to me when people, uh

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<v Speaker 3>proudly proclaim that they're anti woke. I mean, are you're

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<v Speaker 3>so you're asleep? Is it? What is that is that?

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<v Speaker 3>Are you bragging about that to me that you're that

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<v Speaker 3>you're Yes, I am ignorant, and I don't give a

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<v Speaker 3>ship how anybody feels, and and it's it's it seems odd.

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<v Speaker 3>But just when we were reading through the story, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they were talking about thinking you know, you already mentioned

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<v Speaker 3>strong female protagonists. That was one of the tags that

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<v Speaker 3>they use to label games. That was I mean, really,

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<v Speaker 3>that's something you should be warning about. They also had

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<v Speaker 3>things like includes pronouns, oh really okay, and to these

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<v Speaker 3>pronouns or character with modern features. I mean, it's it's

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<v Speaker 3>I don't it almost seem and I don't think this

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<v Speaker 3>is what's happening, but it almost seems like it's a

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<v Speaker 3>bunch of people, like like if they were aliens or

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<v Speaker 3>something and they saw human beings acting this way and

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<v Speaker 3>they're like, oh, this is the way that we act

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<v Speaker 3>to be human. Hello, humans, we are anti woke, and

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<v Speaker 3>watch out for those pronouns, and hey, watch out for

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<v Speaker 3>those modern features. They're gonna come and get you. So

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<v Speaker 3>it's uh, but it's tough to it's tough to keep

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<v Speaker 3>up with. And so I was saying that it almost

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<v Speaker 3>seems funny that like they're just trying to pretend like

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<v Speaker 3>like they maybe they see their parents or somebody acting,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, protesting against you know, gay marriage or something

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<v Speaker 3>like that, and they're like, oh, what should we protest about? Oh,

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<v Speaker 3>strong female protagonists. Okay, there there's something that we need

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<v Speaker 3>to worry about. But I think what this shows is

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<v Speaker 3>that people are going to people right. People are going

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<v Speaker 3>to be are gonna have things to disagree about. And

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<v Speaker 3>I agree with AJ. I'm kind of two minds of this.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that, you know, shutting them down and saying no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 3>you can't say that is I don't. I don't think

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<v Speaker 3>that's the way to do it. I think that, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>in this particular case, and I don't want to cast

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<v Speaker 3>gamers as being immature. And I'm a gamer myself, and

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<v Speaker 3>and I'm well into my fifties and so well that

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<v Speaker 3>I suppose that doesn't mean I'm not immature, but that

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't mean I'm not young, and so so it's not

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<v Speaker 3>like we're just talking about kids here, and so it's

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<v Speaker 3>we don't want to cast them as being immature, although

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<v Speaker 3>it does it does have some aspects to that. It's

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<v Speaker 3>hard not to because it's it's immature behavior. It's immature behavior.

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<v Speaker 3>It's it's lumping people together, it's lumping these games together.

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<v Speaker 3>It's saying that if a game uses pronouns, then something

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<v Speaker 3>there's something bad about that. They're trying to get us

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<v Speaker 3>to believe a certain way. They're trying to get us

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<v Speaker 3>to think a certain way, which I don't know. There

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<v Speaker 3>might be some truth to that. I generally don't think

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<v Speaker 3>that that's that's really we're going to change the world

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<v Speaker 3>by using pronouns in this video game. It's it seems

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<v Speaker 3>kind of silly to me, but you know, but at

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<v Speaker 3>the same time, it's it's these gaming communities are a

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<v Speaker 3>way that a significant portion of the population lived their lives,

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<v Speaker 3>and there are people that that's really their whole life

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<v Speaker 3>is their gaming community. And so as somebody who's basically

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<v Speaker 3>a casual gamer like myself, it's easy to see this as, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>it's just the gamers acting up again, But you know,

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<v Speaker 3>we have to take it seriously because it's a reflection

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<v Speaker 3>of the people that are playing those games, many of

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<v Speaker 3>whom are just like you know, just like us, And

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<v Speaker 3>so I don't see this as really being something surprising

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<v Speaker 3>or different from the rest of society. But you know,

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<v Speaker 3>there it is. It makes the headlines. Game games make money,

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<v Speaker 3>and so money makes headlines, and so it's on the headline.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're talking about it today.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess, Yeah, I think it would be interesting to

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<v Speaker 2>see the demographic behind the people in the group.

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<v Speaker 1>It would be yeah, it would I would loved I

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<v Speaker 1>wish that the you know, the article probably would have had, like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe some demographic information about like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>who are the ones who are you know, forming these

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<v Speaker 1>communities who want to label games? Where are their political leanings?

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<v Speaker 1>You know what? What are you know some other aspects

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<v Speaker 1>that could be a you know, could also be involved

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<v Speaker 1>with them wanting to even lend their voice to something

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<v Speaker 1>like this in the first place. But you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>wondering what ways can the gaming community because like we

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<v Speaker 1>have these people, right, that's like coming up with ways

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<v Speaker 1>for you to basically censor or telling other people, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>not to buy certain games because they're too woken. This

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<v Speaker 1>is what you can use to have your WOCO meter on,

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<v Speaker 1>so it would determine what you will and want not buy, right,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, But I wanted to, like, what's the opposite

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<v Speaker 1>side of it, in ag I kind of want you

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<v Speaker 1>to start on this when it comes to like fostering

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<v Speaker 1>a more nuanced conversation about representation without resorting to divisive labels,

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<v Speaker 1>What would you think that would actually look like?

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<v Speaker 2>I think everyone, all of us, has a responsibility to

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<v Speaker 2>shape this type of conversation. Unfortunately, as usual, it seems

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<v Speaker 2>that women or people of color and LGBTQ people are

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<v Speaker 2>the target here, and I apologize to Scott, the only

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<v Speaker 2>man in the panel of today, but I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>go out on a limb here and guess that these reviews,

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<v Speaker 2>as we were mentioning earlier, the demograph, the demographic is

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<v Speaker 2>more than likely not made up of women, or not

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<v Speaker 2>many women, at least from what I will be guessing.

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<v Speaker 2>And the reason that I'm saying this is because there

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<v Speaker 2>were just so many reviews talking about, you know, these

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<v Speaker 2>strong female characters. There was one one specific review of

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<v Speaker 2>the Indiana Jones and the Great Circle game that said

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<v Speaker 2>they forced a girl boss character into the game in

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<v Speaker 2>order to push agendas, and several other games were labeled

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<v Speaker 2>as informational or meaning that they weren't neither recommended, but

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<v Speaker 2>they were also you know, not recommended. They were simply

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<v Speaker 2>review to inform people of what had been updated or

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<v Speaker 2>other to the game, but included in this category where

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<v Speaker 2>several games were having forced diversity or an extremely ugly

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<v Speaker 2>strong female protagonist, and complains about games adding pronouns as

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<v Speaker 2>a Scott mentioned earlier and replacing gender female and male

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<v Speaker 2>with body types which they will being labeled sort of

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<v Speaker 2>like body type A or body type B rather than

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<v Speaker 2>you know, as we said, the typical male and female.

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<v Speaker 2>And it seems like the pushback against equal representation is

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<v Speaker 2>just a reminder of how misogyny and homophobia are so

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<v Speaker 2>deeply embedded in all aspects of a modern society, including

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<v Speaker 2>video games, and sadly, children grow up playing and all

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<v Speaker 2>of these video games, and they see all these reviews

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<v Speaker 2>and they see this type of vocabulary being used, and

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<v Speaker 2>ultimately they are exposed to all these hateful ideologies and

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<v Speaker 2>they take that into adulthood. So we all have to

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<v Speaker 2>be responsible for shaping this type of conversation and bringing

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<v Speaker 2>awareness to it and bringing it up and continue talking

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<v Speaker 2>about it and making sure that people realize how harmful

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<v Speaker 2>they are.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, misogyny, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and alcil racist all of those,

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<v Speaker 1>unfortunately have leaked into different aspects of our society, even

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<v Speaker 1>something that should be fun, like gaming. What's the harm?

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<v Speaker 1>I want to let me bring bring the camera closer,

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<v Speaker 1>let me talk to you anti world gamers. What is

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<v Speaker 1>the harm of representing other people who are not cis

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<v Speaker 1>head white men? Do you know that there are other

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<v Speaker 1>people in the world that are not sis head, turbo

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<v Speaker 1>sexual quite men, Are you familiar with other people were

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<v Speaker 1>right here?

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<v Speaker 3>That's a good question, question of color.

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<v Speaker 2>Woman, we exist, we're here.

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<v Speaker 3>We do this as the cis head white man on

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<v Speaker 3>the Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, you're right, right, Scott, you speak for all of

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<v Speaker 1>these people.

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<v Speaker 3>What's what's wrong?

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<v Speaker 1>What's going on?

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<v Speaker 3>As I said, I'm also a gamer, and I'm careful

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<v Speaker 3>not to cast this as a them issue. I'm I'm

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<v Speaker 3>embracing my uh my acknowledging my not embracing I'm acknowledging my,

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<v Speaker 3>my privilege and my position here. And I would like

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<v Speaker 3>to talk about this problem as a wee problem. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>And it's you know the question that you just asked Asa.

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<v Speaker 3>You said you used the phrase nuanced and online community

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<v Speaker 3>in the same sentence. I thought that it was hilarious.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, online communities are not known for their nuance,

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<v Speaker 3>and this is an online community, but it's our online community,

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<v Speaker 3>and so I think we do have responsibility not only

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<v Speaker 3>to acknowledge what we see here, but also to tow

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<v Speaker 3>we can we can you can promote positive thoughts, positive

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<v Speaker 3>approaches to to these issues. Like you said, what does

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<v Speaker 3>it matter if you have an option?

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<v Speaker 1>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>Because that's what they're complaining about they're not complaining about

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<v Speaker 3>being forced to play a particular character, although in some

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<v Speaker 3>games they might. You know, it forces you down a

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<v Speaker 3>particular path. As gamers, we love having different choices available

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<v Speaker 3>to us and so but but but I think as

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<v Speaker 3>as an adult gamer, it's my responsibility to make sure

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<v Speaker 3>that my gaming community is not promoting hateful thoughts. And

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<v Speaker 3>I don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

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<v Speaker 3>I think I support somebody else's right to promote whatever

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<v Speaker 3>whatever they want to. I mean, I don't think that

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<v Speaker 3>this is something that should be shut down, as we

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<v Speaker 3>said before, but I think there are ways that that

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<v Speaker 3>the community can kind of take it by the reins

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<v Speaker 3>and kind of promote the kind of morph this into

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<v Speaker 3>something good. I think discussion, at the very least can

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<v Speaker 3>be helpful as long as long as ideas can be

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<v Speaker 3>brought in, and that's in this fight against these options.

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<v Speaker 3>Can take those away, can take those those types of

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<v Speaker 3>discussions off the table, and that that I think is

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<v Speaker 3>the real damage that's being done here. It's not necessarily

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<v Speaker 3>specifically particular ideas, but it's that it's it's taking those

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<v Speaker 3>it's taking the option of discussion off the table. Which

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<v Speaker 3>can be frustrating and makes it difficult to to deal with.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think Scott, this is the perfect example of

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<v Speaker 2>what we can do. Like you be in here and

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<v Speaker 2>taking everything networking at you, and you're still here standing

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<v Speaker 2>up for it and speaking up against it. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that that is what a lot more people could do,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like realize your privilege and use that for good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. What do you all think that developers play in

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<v Speaker 1>navigating you know, consumer feedback on perceived political messaging in

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<v Speaker 1>their games.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, they're the targets here. They're the targets. I mean this.

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<v Speaker 3>This group is not intent on affecting what players do.

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<v Speaker 3>Their intent on affecting developers because they know that it's

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<v Speaker 3>going to boil down to money. Okay, if people stop

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<v Speaker 3>buying their games, then they're going to need to adjust.

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<v Speaker 3>And so this is a marketplace of ideas, it's a

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<v Speaker 3>literal marketplace of video games, and so developers are kind

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<v Speaker 3>of caught right. They want to sell their games, but

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<v Speaker 3>you know, maybe some of them don't care about the

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<v Speaker 3>messages that they put up. Certainly there's video games with

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<v Speaker 3>bad messages and mixed messages and good messages, and so

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<v Speaker 3>they are kind of caught between a rock and a

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<v Speaker 3>hard place. They need to react to the marketplace, but

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<v Speaker 3>they also need to react to their consciences. And so

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I actually we have there's a former nonprofit

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<v Speaker 3>that now works at a huge video game company. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not going to say who, but those of you long

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<v Speaker 3>time viewers of the nonprofits know exactly who I'm talking about.

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<v Speaker 3>But anyway, in any case, but yeah, I think that

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<v Speaker 3>if we can promote discussion, promote conversation, I think that

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<v Speaker 3>the good ideas have the opportunity to bubble to the top.

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<v Speaker 1>What's the u ager?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think that you know, Steam has sixty

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<v Speaker 2>nine million early users, is huge, and the group in

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<v Speaker 2>question is only made up of about sixteen hundred users

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<v Speaker 2>that are actively wide reviews. But they do have nine

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<v Speaker 2>thousand followers, so people that support that, And well, I

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<v Speaker 2>am happy to see that the amount of people doing

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<v Speaker 2>this is just a tiny infraction of the overall newser base.

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<v Speaker 2>Is in that they have had the power to shut

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<v Speaker 2>down certain games, and although the reason why these games

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<v Speaker 2>were truly shut down seems to be in question and

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<v Speaker 2>not necessarily directly related to the reviews, I think that

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<v Speaker 2>we can all agree that consumer reviews often do s

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<v Speaker 2>way people's decisions on whether they're going to buy a

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<v Speaker 2>product or not. And you can see that an Amazon

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<v Speaker 2>or any other type of product when you buy and

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<v Speaker 2>sell something, right, So the action of these few people

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<v Speaker 2>can certainly have a negative effect on the game sales,

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<v Speaker 2>and it contained the game developers' reputations for themselves as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm about to put both of you on the spot,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know that you are not prepared for this,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm so curious to see what your brains come

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<v Speaker 1>up with. You are both developers of a new anti

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<v Speaker 1>woke game. What is the name? Yes, an anti woke game, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, anti anti woke game.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, so, Scott, what is the name of your game?

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<v Speaker 3>Is the purpose of the game to be anti woke?

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<v Speaker 3>Is that the goal of the game.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, it is. The goal of the game is to

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<v Speaker 1>be as anti woke as possible. No, and and all

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<v Speaker 1>the things that these these consumer you know, feedback people

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<v Speaker 1>are saying, Hey, these are the aspects of woke games

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<v Speaker 1>right now, and your game has none of it. So

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<v Speaker 1>what's the name of your game?

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<v Speaker 3>The name of my game is fuck you. That's the name.

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<v Speaker 1>That's video.

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<v Speaker 3>You might notice that when I said that, When I

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<v Speaker 3>said that word, I pronounced it as f asterisk c k.

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<v Speaker 3>So you know, so the sensors can't buzz me on that, right,

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't. I didn't say I said it with you. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 3>But the first time I said it had a star

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<v Speaker 3>on it, so that was okay. That makes it, That

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<v Speaker 3>makes it okay.

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<v Speaker 1>That makes it okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Just like you say that in a good place and

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<v Speaker 2>they say fork for.

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<v Speaker 1>You. What's the name of your anti woke game.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking I'm gonna call it Sick Masculinity.

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<v Speaker 1>Ride, Toxic Masculinity Ride.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, now that it open for a lot of imagination. Yeah, imagination.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you put toxic masculine and they're going to be like, no,

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<v Speaker 1>that's that's the that's the woke game.

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<v Speaker 3>Our director director chimed in here, our director chimed in

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<v Speaker 3>he he would name his game Christian Love. It's a

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<v Speaker 3>dating sim for only Christians and actively proselytizes Christian love.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna change my answer to that.

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<v Speaker 2>That's doing it.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, yes, yes, And I will add to Christian Love

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<v Speaker 1>and with a subtitle Christian Love. Your pronouns, I