WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.359 I am very excited to talk to my next guest. 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:05.160 His name is doctor Joe Rigney. 3 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:07.120 He serves as a Fellow of Theology at the New 4 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:10.320 Saint Andrew's College. He's also a pastor at Christ Church 5 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.199 in Moscow in Idaho. He is the author of eight books, 6 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:17.640 including Leadership and Emotional Sabotage and the book we're talking 7 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:22.000 about today, The Sin of Empathy, Compassion and Its Counterfeits, 8 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:23.120 Doctor Ridney. 9 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.160 Welcome to the show. First of all, Hey, thanks for 10 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:26.679 having me, Mandy. 11 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:29.559 I loved this book. I just told him off the air. 12 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.320 It took me maybe an hour and a half to read. 13 00:00:32.359 --> 00:00:37.000 It's not War and Peace. It's a very simple, slim book, 14 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:39.200 but boy does it pack a punch. And I want 15 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:43.000 to just allow you to give what you must have 16 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:46.119 at this point, an elevator speech, a version of what 17 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:49.280 you're talking about that is easy to understand for my 18 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:50.000 listeners if. 19 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:54.399 You would, Yeah, absolutely, I would say. 20 00:00:54.399 --> 00:01:00.600 The basic premise is that, like all good things, passion 21 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:03.759 is capable of being corrupted, and when it does, it 22 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:05.840 becomes highly destructive. 23 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:09.079 So maybe one of the simplest. 24 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.319 Way into it is if you have someone who's drowning 25 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:15.640 in quicksand there's sort of physics analogy using the book. 26 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:18.840 There's basically three ways that you could try to do 27 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:21.959 something about that. The first way would be to kind 28 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:23.400 of walk by on the other side of the road, 29 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:26.280 sort of the parable the good Samaritan the bad guys 30 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:28.480 in that story who just walk by, And we would 31 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:29.319 call that apathy. 32 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:31.680 So you could be apathetic. 33 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:34.319 Someone's drowning, someone's suffering, and you just completely ignore it. 34 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.599 But the other two responses are a little more interesting. 35 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:40.599 So one would be I'm going to reach in and 36 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:43.480 grab you as you're drowning, and I'm gonna have one 37 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:45.840 hand grabbing a branch on the side, and I'm going 38 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.680 to embrace in order to help pull you out. And 39 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:51.640 the word I would use for that is sympathy or compassion. 40 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:55.319 So I'm I'm joining you at some level in the pit, 41 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.640 but I've I'm still remaining anchored to the shore. And 42 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:02.959 I think that's kind of the historic Christian response to 43 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:07.159 pain and suffering is to say, that's what pity, that's compassion, 44 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:11.400 that sympathy tether to the shore, but reaching in joining 45 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:13.719 people in their suffering and pain in order to. 46 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:15.360 Help them get out of it. 47 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:17.759 But in the modern world, there's kind of been this 48 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:24.120 movement to upgrade that that sympathetic, that compassionate response, and 49 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:28.599 they've build empathy as compassion two point zero. And the 50 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.840 upgrade is you jump all the way in, You just 51 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:36.120 dive in with them. And this is presented as a 52 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.919 kind of improvement on the old version because it's a 53 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:44.000 more total immersion in the feelings and experiences and suffering 54 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:45.319 or whatever of other people. 55 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:46.919 And so that's better. 56 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:49.879 But the problem I have with it, the reason that 57 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.759 I call it a corruption of compassion, is that in 58 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:55.039 losing touch jumping in with both feet, you lose touch 59 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.199 with the shore, you lose touch. And then this analogy, 60 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:00.159 it's that's losing touch with reality, with what's true, with 61 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.759 what's good, with what's good for someone in the long run, 62 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:09.080 and focuses mainly on the immediate validation affirmation of what 63 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:10.719 everyone is feeling in the moment. 64 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:13.879 And so that's what I call the sin of empathy. 65 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:16.759 It's when empathy is untethered and when it does that, 66 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:19.960 it actually because the destruction comes when it's a tool 67 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:25.039 of emotional blackmail, of emotional manipulation, and you can do 68 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:26.560 a whole lot of destruction and. 69 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:29.240 Evil in the name of empathy. 70 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:31.879 Now, in the book, this is not a book about politics, 71 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:33.159 I want to be clear, but I am going to 72 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:35.639 take it in a political direction and you can respond 73 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:38.639 in kind if you'd like. This feels very much like 74 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:40.599 what we're dealing with on some of the biggest social 75 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:44.479 issues that we're dealing with right now. And you know, 76 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.680 the trans situation that we've been dealing with in the 77 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.159 country for a long time, I think is the best 78 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.280 example of this. And you know, I am one of 79 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:55.800 those people that at my core, I'm a small l 80 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:58.759 libertarian type. So when you are an adult, if you 81 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:01.680 want to do whatever you want, I really don't care. 82 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.400 As long as you bear the responsibility for those actions 83 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:07.000 and have those consequences on your own, I don't care 84 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:09.400 what you do. You can have all the plastic surgery 85 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:11.080 that you want, you can take all the hormones that 86 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:13.439 you want, and go about your business. But when we 87 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:17.000 started talking about children, if you said this is not 88 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:20.000 a good idea, you were not argued with on the 89 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:21.959 merits of whether or not this was a good idea. 90 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:25.120 You were told you were transphobic, you were hateful, you 91 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:27.720 wanted these people to die, and that for me is 92 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:30.519 the clearest definition of how can we help someone who 93 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.920 is struggling and suffering, but also recognize that perhaps thrusting 94 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.360 them into a path of medicalization is not the way 95 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:40.120 to go, And that for me, compassion is how can 96 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.439 we help them. Empathy is we're going to just go 97 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:44.199 along with whatever they want to do, whether or not 98 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:45.879 it's going to damage them in the long run or not. 99 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:48.879 That's right. 100 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:51.279 And I mean you're right that you know at some 101 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:55.879 level the phenomenon I'm trying to unpack is as old 102 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:58.480 as dirt. Right, So you know, Adam and Eve came 103 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:00.399 out of the garden and we're trying to emotionally manipulate 104 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:05.040 each other. So and so in anybody who's ever been 105 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:06.839 on the receiving end of a pity party or a 106 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:09.839 guilt trip by a family member knows the phenomenon where 107 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:13.639 we're describing where they're they're taking advantage of the fact that. 108 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.879 You care about them, right in order to steer you 109 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:18.120 to get their way. So this is not a new thing. 110 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:21.839 This is a human thing, deeply human way of manipulating 111 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:25.959 people's pity and compassion. What is a little bit unique 112 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:29.800 perhaps about the last twenty thirty forty fifty years is 113 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:36.319 the institutionalization and of that phenomenon throughout all sort of 114 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:39.959 sectors of society where it became it became like the 115 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:44.800 entire society became hijacked in this way by appeals to compassion. 116 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:47.399 And the trans said one is the law is the latest. 117 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.800 It's in a long line of. 118 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:50.680 This kind of manipulation. 119 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:56.560 I think that the LGBT stuff was advanced in precisely. 120 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:56.759 The same way. 121 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.000 Here's people who just want to have the same rights 122 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:00.879 as you do. They just want to get quote unquote 123 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.319 married just like you do. And isn't it so sad 124 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.399 that they can't get married because we're such a bigoted 125 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:08.199 and hateful country. And so it was an appeal to 126 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:12.879 compassion in order to mute any resistance to the redefinition 127 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:14.160 of the most fundamental. 128 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:14.879 Institution of society. 129 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:19.279 So this radical move of redefining marriage and trying to 130 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:25.160 unmoor it from its biological covenantal realities was made on 131 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:28.160 the basis of compassion and appeal to compassion and empathy 132 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:29.720 for same sex couples. 133 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:32.920 And then but it doesn't stay in place. 134 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.160 It was just extended out as we're seeing with the 135 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:39.079 trans movement, where would you rather have a dead son 136 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:40.040 or a live daughter? 137 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:41.839 When the medical. 138 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:45.120 Community makes that statement to parents who have children who have, 139 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.800 somehow or other through their smartphone or internet access, have 140 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:53.000 been catechized and indoctrinated into gender ideology and are now saying, 141 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:55.120 I even though I was born a boy, I feel 142 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:56.879 like I'm a girl, and I want to get surgery 143 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:00.319 and get on puberty walkers and everything else. When parents 144 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:02.920 would put up any resistance, it was an appeal to 145 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.560 their natural human compassion for their child. Don't you love them? 146 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:09.600 Don't you care for them? Do you want them to die? 147 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:12.959 That was used to short circuit any resistance, And that's 148 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:18.600 a great example of that manipulation of our normal, good 149 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:23.240 human response to suffering and pain and hardship, which is 150 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:26.040 to share and identify with people. But it can get 151 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:27.879 easily get hijacked, and when it does it it does 152 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:28.959 become highly destructive. 153 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:31.279 A lot of the criticisms that I've read quite a 154 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:34.959 few scorchers of columns that have people that really don't 155 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:38.319 care for your opinion on this. How does this square 156 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:40.639 because you're a pastor of a church, how does this 157 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:44.920 square with Jesus's commandment to love thy neighbor. And you 158 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:47.399 know we've all heard, you know, love the sin or 159 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:50.079 hate the sin. Where does all this sort of fit 160 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:51.920 into that overall dogma? 161 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:53.160 Yeah? 162 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.560 Absolutely so well. I mean, Christ is the model for 163 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:59.879 Christian compassion. And we're told that he's a sympathetic high priest, 164 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.920 which means he was tempted in every way that we are, 165 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:05.279 yet without sin. The one thing that Jesus would not 166 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.079 do is join us in our sin. Now, he died 167 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.519 for our sins, but he himself would not celebrate, validate, 168 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:12.759 and affirm us in our sins. 169 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:14.079 He came to rescue us from it. 170 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:16.560 And so Christ is a great example of what I 171 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:20.199 would call tethered compassion. He's anchored to his father, he's 172 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:23.120 anchored to Oh, I'm gonna love God first, and then 173 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.560 because I love God, I'm able to love human beings 174 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:28.720 in their weakness, their brokenness, their sinfulness and try to 175 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:30.959 pull them out of the pit that they've put themselves in. 176 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:32.480 That's tethered compassion. 177 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:34.879 What he didn't do was put our emotions in the 178 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:37.639 driver in his driver's seat and say take me wherever 179 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:39.320 you want to go. In fact, the Bible tells us 180 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.279 repeatedly Jesus would never entrust himself to man because he 181 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:45.559 knew what was in the heart of man. He actually 182 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:48.559 when people tried to hijack and steer him, like his 183 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:50.679 disciples did at times, like no, you can't go to 184 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.360 the cross, get behind me, Satan, right. So there's a 185 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:57.159 number of places where Jesus absolutely refuses to do what 186 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:01.399 his followers or his enemies want him to do because 187 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.559 he's more committed to the mission that God has sent 188 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:06.960 him on than he is to whatever their desires might be. 189 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:11.039 And I think the larger biblical picture of compassion always 190 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:13.600 anchors our love for neighbor, in love for God and 191 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.960 what's ultimately good for them. And the challenge with this 192 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:22.559 untethered empathy is it frequently prioritizes the immediate feelings of 193 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.080 a person over their long term good. So I'll do 194 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.759 something that I think will relieve their immediate feelings. 195 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:32.519 Of distress or pain. Transisu is a great example. 196 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:36.320 They feel this way, so we'll castraate or mutilate, or 197 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.559 give them puberty blockers in order to try to alleviate 198 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.960 these feelings that they have, rather than their long term good, 199 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:47.879 which would be Let's try to bring their psychological identity 200 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:51.759 in line with biological reality. Let's remain anchored to what 201 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:54.960 is true and what is good, not get untethered by 202 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:55.759 their emotions. 203 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:58.799 So how do you prevent someone And I guess you 204 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:01.639 probably can't prevent this. But my thinking is is, like 205 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:04.320 I read your book, I absolutely understood what you were saying. 206 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:07.159 I am of the sort that I want to solve 207 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:09.919 the problems. In Denver, we have a huge issue with homelessness, 208 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:12.960 and our mayor has chosen to just shove you know, 209 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:15.559 people who suffered great trauma who are now addicted to 210 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.840 drugs or alcohol or mentally ill, has just shoved them 211 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.759 into old hotels, which doesn't solve any of the underlying problems. 212 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:24.519 But to your point, this is exactly what you just 213 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.360 talked about, which is solve this immediate need without solving 214 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:31.480 any of the longer issues. So how do you prevent 215 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.519 people from saying, well, you know, the sin of empathy says, 216 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:37.919 I don't have to be concerned about that, you know, 217 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.759 I mean, this could be a double edged sword. Do 218 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:41.000 you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? 219 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:42.440 Yeah? 220 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:46.240 Sure, it's certainly possible for someone to see the abuse 221 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.679 of compassion and empathy in our society and to actually 222 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.279 fall off on the other side and become heartless and apathetic, 223 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.200 indifferent to human suffering. And part of the reason that 224 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:01.240 I wrote the book, you know, it's passion and its counterfeits, 225 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:04.960 and the final chapter is commending real compassion in the 226 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.279 face of the counterfeits, because I don't want that to happen. 227 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:09.759 But the surest way to keep to, the surest way to. 228 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:12.720 Get the cruelty and apathy that people are afraid of, 229 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:16.440 is to continue allow to allow people to manipulate us 230 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.759 by empathy into doing things that are destructive and harmful. 231 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:23.679 So in the cases like homelessness or rampant criminality in 232 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.519 urban centers, or legal immigration for that matter, and these 233 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:29.840 kind of hot button issues, we are running the risk 234 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:34.840 of a kind of callous indifference to human suffering because 235 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:38.759 people are tired of being manipulated by the suffering of 236 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:41.000 others by advocates. So this is like, this is how 237 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:44.759 the setup often works, where you have here's real human suffering, 238 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:48.000 and then you have activists who are victims, and they 239 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.799 may be victims of real things or have real hardship 240 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:52.919 not of their own doing. But then you have activists 241 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:55.639 and advocates who come along as representatives, who speak on 242 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:58.840 their behalf, and they view the victims as a as 243 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.559 a tool to power and they know that they can 244 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:06.879 reorganize society however they want in the name of compassion. 245 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:12.200 So we will well reorganized. They'll set the agenda for 246 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:14.279 what everybody else has to do. They'll be the ones 247 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:16.679 in charge. And they discovered this was a very effective 248 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:25.000 way to hijack institutions, colleges, churches, schools, and it was 249 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:25.679 very effective. 250 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:26.919 And so now we've got more of that. 251 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:30.200 So then you have a backlash against it as people go, well, 252 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:32.639 if that's what compassion gets me, no, thank you. And 253 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:34.519 what I want to say is no, we actually need 254 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:37.000 to think in terms of what's good for people in 255 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:39.240 the long run, like what is actually going to get 256 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.639 down to root issues, So whether it's homelessness or immigration, 257 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:43.919 we want to actually think what's going to be good 258 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:47.399 for everyone, not just myopically focused. One of the things 259 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:51.120 empathy does is it acts as a spotlight and it 260 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:54.200 focuses on certain suffering and not other suffering. 261 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:56.320 Others, certain suffering gets totally whitewashed. 262 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.960 It's just totally gone, but other people at certain suffering 263 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:02.279 is elevated, so that we fixate on that, and I 264 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.480 want to say, no, we need to have a broader perspective, 265 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:08.720 rooted in justice, in what's true and what's good for 266 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:10.600 people and long run, what's good for society in the 267 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:13.000 long run, and out of that then you can make 268 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:17.200 wise decisions because you're not governed by the immediate passions 269 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:18.039 of the moment. 270 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.639 I'm talking with Pastor Joe Rigney about his book The 271 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:24.639 Sin of Empathy, and to that point, Pastor, you know, 272 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:27.399 one of the things that has been irritating for me 273 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:29.639 for a really long time when it comes to the 274 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:32.559 immigration issue, is a perfect example of this. And you know, 275 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:34.879 I have a lot of compassion for people who live 276 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:37.879 in these crapholed countries and they just want to escape 277 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:39.600 and have a better life for their family. I think 278 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:43.000 most people can understand why you would want to leave 279 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.120 someplace where there's no opportunity in danger to make the 280 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:49.240 long trek to the United States of America. But so 281 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:51.919 much of it happened and was allowed that now we 282 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:54.279 see people rooting and cheering as people are dragged off 283 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:57.080 the streets by ice and it's like with the pendulum 284 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:00.559 swung so quickly too, I can understand why you'd want 285 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:02.840 to come here to Uh yeah, we don't care if 286 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:04.440 you get due process and we're going to toss you 287 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:08.000 out on your ear. It's it's been it's been an 288 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:12.960 interesting thing to see. But ultimately, I think we're seeing 289 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.039 more and more of a backlash against more of these 290 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:19.720 issues where empathy has been weaponized to use a better 291 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:21.840 you know, for lack of a better term. Do you 292 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.759 see a shift on some of these things, and are 293 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:27.200 we going to shift too far too fast? 294 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:28.919 Well? 295 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:30.480 I think like when it comes to the people who 296 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:35.279 celebrate ice, you know, rating and deporting individuals, I think 297 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:39.080 the celebration is less about is less of cruelty about 298 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.759 those individuals who being deported, and more a gratitude that 299 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.639 someone finally decided that enough was enough. 300 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:48.559 So I think it was after you know. 301 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:54.240 Decades of politicians puttsing around and not doing anything as 302 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:58.279 millions and millions of people illegally enter the country and 303 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:02.399 distort and it was highly destructive to many communities. Right, 304 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.799 So this is a good example of the myopics. So 305 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:08.960 in the name of compassion for people refugees, or asylum seekers, 306 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.120 or even just migrants from other countries who wanted to 307 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:13.840 come here seeking better life. Well, what about the people 308 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.399 whose jobs they displaced? What about the wages that were depressed? 309 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:19.879 What about the factories that the jobs that were taken 310 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:23.559 from Americans who now had to compete with under the 311 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:27.320 table untaxed labor. And it's like, no one felt compassion 312 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:29.440 for that group of people. So now when that group 313 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:33.279 of people see someone finally standing up for the rule 314 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:36.919 of law and for a border, they rejoice. And that 315 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:41.080 fact not necessarily that, you know, individuals who were brought 316 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:44.240 here as children are being deported. I think that Americans 317 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:48.399 would have a far greater compassion if we actually had 318 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:52.399 a regulated system and a firm border. But this is 319 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:54.799 an issue that cuts right to the heart of the 320 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.679 scent of empathy question. A friend sent me a picture 321 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:00.840 a couple of weeks ago from the Mexican side of 322 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.519 the southern border, and written in big block letters on 323 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.279 the Mexico side in graffiti was the word empathy. And 324 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:10.799 I thought, that's actually a really good illustration of what 325 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:13.080 I'm getting at, because the idea of the graffiti was 326 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:17.320 this wall, this border wall is an affront to empathy 327 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:19.720 to compassion. Empathy means you don't get to have borders, 328 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:22.200 you don't get to have boundaries. You have to let anything, 329 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:25.639 anything goes. And I think that's a really good illustration 330 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:27.759 of precisely what I'm trying to avoid. 331 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:30.759 No borders are good, right. Good fences make good neighbors. 332 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:32.679 If you have a big border, if you have a wall, 333 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:34.759 you can also put gates in that wall and allow 334 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.159 the number of people that you think you can handle 335 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:37.600 to come in. 336 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:40.240 All of that is made possible when you have boundaries. 337 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:43.799 When you lose boundaries, it's just one big mess, and 338 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:47.360 is what we find ourselves in twenty twenty five. 339 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.399 So someone has texted our Common Spirit Health text line 340 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:54.120 with this question, if I understand correctly, compassion is good 341 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:56.799 if it's to white, straight folks, and beyond that it's 342 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.480 out of control and becomes a negative. How do you respond, 343 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:01.519 because that's a criticism that I see. 344 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:02.120 Of their book. 345 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:06.000 Yeah, sure, well, I don't know about the white part. 346 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:09.119 I think the race question, the ethnic question. Yeah, we 347 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.119 should be compassionate to all peoples of all all races, 348 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:14.759 insofar as we have the ability, and insofar as it 349 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:15.559 doesn't compete. 350 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:17.960 With our other duties as far as the straight the 351 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:18.519 straight piece. 352 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:24.759 Yeah, I'm a Christian. I think that homosexuality is wrong. 353 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:28.880 It's disgusting, and it's sinful, and therefore I don't want 354 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.400 society celebrating it endorsing it, because I think it's harmful 355 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:34.559 and destructive in both the short term and in long 356 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.839 term to people's souls. And so I want a society 357 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:42.319 that rather than flying the rainbow flag and encouraging vile affections, 358 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.640 I want a society that reinforces the basic institution of society, 359 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.079 which is the natural family, where a husband and a 360 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:51.400 wife covenant together for a lifetime for the good, for 361 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:53.680 their own mutual happiness and for the bearing and rearing 362 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:56.480 of children, which is the foundation of every other institution 363 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:01.160 of society. And because we've abandoned that institution, like a 364 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.599 lot of these other problems that you've mentioned here, whether 365 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:06.839 it's the homelessness which is often driven by mental health 366 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.880 and addiction, and what feeds that well, uh, single parent homes, right, 367 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:13.839 rampant divorce, the decline and. 368 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:15.839 Decay of the natural family. 369 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.759 Those that that one issue sprout so many other issues, 370 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.319 and we won't defend and preserve and maintain this fundamental 371 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.759 institution of society, and as a result, we're reaping what. 372 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.119 We've sown and it's justified with what maintains it. 373 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:34.240 Though, is this false notion of compassion that says, validate 374 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:38.319 and affirm everybody's desires. If you desire it, we affirm it. 375 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:40.640 If you want it, you can have it, do what 376 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:41.200 you feel. 377 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:43.160 And instead we should say, no, what, how has God 378 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.440 made us? What? What? What standards does he put in place? 379 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.920 He knows best how we're designed and has given us 380 00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:52.440 a blueprint in his scriptures for how we're to live. 381 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:55.279 If we live according to his word, then we'll find 382 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:58.160 that we find there's life there, there's joy there, there's 383 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:02.039 health and wholeness there, rather than the decay and destruction 384 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.799 that surrounds us everywhere. Uh. 385 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:07.960 Doctor Joe Rigney is my guest. The book is the 386 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.720 sin of compassion, and it is a excuse me, the 387 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:12.799 sin of empathy when we get back to the name 388 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.720 of the But you kind of threw me there because 389 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.759 my views and I understand the biblical perspective about homosexuality, 390 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:23.200 but I don't necessarily share that because so many of 391 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.400 my gay friends would love to be straight. They would 392 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:29.359 love nothing more to be straight, but that's not how 393 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.400 they're wired. And I happen to think that, you know, 394 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:34.279 God thought they were important enough to put on the earth, 395 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.640 and we'll disagree about that. I felt like I needed 396 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.799 to say that. I hope you understand, but ultimately I 397 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:43.440 do think that the overarching point goes well beyond white 398 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:46.759 or straight or anything else, because you can apply the 399 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.920 sin of empathy to so many different things that are 400 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:51.880 the problems that are being and I'm put air quotes 401 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.440