WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:04.000 This is Michael Connolly and you're listening to Killer in 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:08.519 the Code Solving the Black Dahlia and Zodiac cases. This 3 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:12.960 is chapter three. We originally said we would be back 4 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:16.359 with this episode on January fifteenth, but this has become 5 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:19.280 a fast moving story and we decided to push things up. 6 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:23.079 So here we are. But before we get into it, 7 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:25.079 I just want to give what I guess is a 8 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:28.839 preface here. We dropped the first two episodes a couple 9 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:33.679 weeks ago and named Marvin Margolis aka Marvin Merrill aka 10 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:37.000 Skip Merrill as the killer in both the Zodiac and 11 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:41.000 Black Dahia cases. It created quite a stir on the 12 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:44.439 Internet on various sites and threads dedicated to one or 13 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:49.439 both of these infamous cases. As predicted in our first episode, 14 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:53.320 people sniped at our findings, mostly without bothering to listen 15 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.159 to them first or wait for the rest of the podcast. 16 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.359 I feel I made a mistake in those opening episodes 17 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:02.600 by not operately introducing a couple members of the team 18 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:06.040 who have been involved in the investigation and fully support 19 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:09.680 its findings. So briefly, let me introduce two of the 20 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:16.000 cold case homicide investigators who are part of this team. First, 21 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:18.879 there is Missy Roberts. She spent twenty nine years with 22 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:22.359 the Los Angeles Police Department, most of it working homicides, 23 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:26.439 before retiring last year as the detective in charge of 24 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.040 the Cold Case Unit. During the last half of her 25 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:32.879 career with the LAPD, she was assigned to the murder 26 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:36.079 of Elizabeth Short that are known as the Black Dahlia. 27 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:40.079 During that time, she was able to review almost all 28 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:42.760 of the records and evidence still in the custody of 29 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:47.239 the police department. This included a four drawer file cabinet 30 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:51.879 and a trunk containing Elizabeth's longings. During that time with 31 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:54.760 the case, she was able to review and debunk the 32 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:57.680 theories and claims by some of the people now upset 33 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:02.079 by this podcast. Example, there are those out there who 34 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:05.760 say Marvin Margolis was cleared in the Black Dahlia case 35 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:11.360 by the LAPD. Roberts assuredly says he was not. And 36 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:14.080 I think what you should know is that, without question, 37 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:18.400 Roberts knows more about the Dahlia case than any investigator alive. 38 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:22.280 But the Dahlia case was only one assignment. She worked 39 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:24.800 dozens of murders and made dozens of arrests As a 40 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:30.280 homicide investigator. Probably most notably, she apprehended Sam Little, a 41 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:33.639 serial killer who had a near fifty year run until 42 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:37.960 Roberts caught the case and in turn finally caught him. 43 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.319 The FBI says Little, who confessed to killing ninety three people, 44 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:46.680 is the most prolific serial killer on record. Though he 45 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:49.280 left bodies in his way from coast to coast, he 46 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:53.560 ultimately was only convicted of three murders, all cases put 47 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:59.479 together in Los Angeles by Detective Roberts. Also a member 48 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.000 of this team is Rick Jackson, who spent thirty four 49 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.639 years with the LAPD, most of them in homicide. He 50 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:09.240 retired from the department's cold case unit a few years back, 51 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:11.960 moved up to the Bay Area in northern California, and 52 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.000 promptly realized he couldn't give it up. He's a man 53 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:18.840 on a mission, a mission to bring justice to victims. 54 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:22.120 He became a cold case investigator for the San Mateo 55 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:27.479 County Sheriff's Department. He and his partner, Dave Tresmontin, also 56 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.159 a member of this team, saw three murders in the 57 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.560 last couple of years, one of which dated all the 58 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:36.199 way back to the time of the Zodiac killings. I 59 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.240 should also mention here that both Jackson and Roberts serve 60 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:42.759 as inspirations for characters I write about in my novels. 61 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:45.919 That would be Harry Bosh and Renee Baward. They are 62 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:50.360 the living embodiment of the homicide detectives Creed. Everybody Counts 63 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:54.400 or Nobody counts. These are people who solve murders in 64 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:58.159 real life, not on the Internet, not on YouTube. They 65 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:00.719 gather I must rely on real evinue. It's when they 66 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:04.199 make cases, and that dedication to the truth is what 67 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:07.439 they bring to this investigation. At the end of the 68 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:10.039 run of this podcast, we're going to have a roundtable 69 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.719 discussion with Alex Baber and all the investigators, and we 70 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:17.800 will answer questions sent to our website killerndecode dot com 71 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:20.639 and take on all critics of the work they have done. 72 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:29.959 I think it's going to be fun. Now one to 73 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.399 chapter three. I don't think we need to start with 74 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:36.120 another recap. But before we get into a new decoding 75 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:39.720 and interpretation of the zodiacs last cipher, I want to 76 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:44.879 talk about checking boxes. While the investigation by the team 77 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.279 led by cold case consultant Baber is built on his 78 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:51.519 reveal of the suspect's name in the Ze thirteen cipher. 79 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:55.639 That is only a starting point. That's not evidence of anything. 80 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:59.560 To make the case that Margolis Merrill, as I've taken 81 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:02.639 a call in him, was indeed both the Zodiac killer 82 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:06.399 and the Black Dalua Avenger, he need to check many boxes, 83 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:08.920 and each of those boxes is a piece of a 84 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:13.839 puzzle that, when completed, will prove the case. This is 85 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:14.759 Missy Roberts. 86 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.160 I had a murder case and one of the closing arguments, 87 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:23.399 the DA would actually in a PowerPoint, would take a 88 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:25.800 piece of evidence and put and had like a puzzle 89 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:28.360 board and would put that in a piece of the puzzle. 90 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:32.160 And once the last piece of the puzzle, which was 91 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:35.000 a major piece of evidence was placed into the puzzle, 92 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:37.839 the picture of the actual person. 93 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:38.079 That did it. 94 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.879 And it was such a cool thing because it's just 95 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:46.000 one she put all the evidence together. The picture is 96 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.600 clear and it leads to the person that did it. 97 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:52.240 And in this case, I think it's very clear that 98 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:53.480 that's Margaret Margolis. 99 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.560 Okay, so let's start check in boxes. Some of these 100 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.560 will pertain to only one of the cases for obvious reasons, 101 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.480 but some will need to be checked in both cases 102 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:11.319 to be valid. Let's begin with what is perhaps the 103 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:15.360 easiest one, the physible aspects of the killer. Since there 104 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.000 were no known witnesses to Elizabeth Short's abduction or the 105 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:22.959 discarding of her body, this is pretty much a Zodiac box. 106 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.600 The final killing officially attributed to the Zodiac was the 107 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:32.319 murder of San Francisco cab driver Paul Stein on October eleventh, 108 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:36.399 nineteen sixty nine. A description of the killer who shot 109 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.720 Stein was obtained from three children who looked out a 110 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:43.120 window in their home and saw the fleeing man, as 111 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.720 well as two police officers who passed him while responding 112 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.079 to the shooting call. The police put out a description 113 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:53.000 of a white male thirty five to forty five years old, 114 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:57.000 with a stocky build and height between five eight and 115 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:00.399 six foot. He wore glasses and had a crew cut, 116 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.639 adding descriptors from surviving victims of the earlier attacks, The 117 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:08.600 Zodiac was known to be right handed as well. This 118 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:09.560 is Alex Baber. 119 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:11.639 Okay, so here's what we know. 120 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.399 We know that he's within the height bracket, which is 121 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:15.839 a five eight to six foot. 122 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:19.720 We know he's right at five ten some accounts of 123 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:21.560 five nine. O. There's a five ten, depending on what 124 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:22.399 account you go by. 125 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:26.680 We know that he's right handed, sign verified that as 126 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:28.639 well as some images show him using his right hand 127 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:29.720 which would imply such. 128 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:34.399 We also know that he wore glasses all the time. 129 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:39.360 You know, there's there's an account where his son says 130 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:43.360 in an audio, Yeah, my dad wore glasses all the time. 131 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:46.079 He had two bears of glasses he wore. You know, 132 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:50.040 he's very very clear about that. And also we discovered 133 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:51.920 when we went through the evidence that he shared with 134 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:55.439 us with the detective Jackson and Mitzi, we discovered a 135 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.600 Vai prescription that we have in our possession that also 136 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:02.519 verified I said he needed glasses. And then we know 137 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.040 his physical characteristics fit as well his weight at that 138 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.680 time approximate weight, which he can't really depend on because 139 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:12.399 people fluctuate, but we do know from the photograph that 140 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:15.839 was shared with us the additional photograph that he fits 141 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:20.120 the script as far as the barrel chested and built 142 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.839 that was described by not only the three children from 143 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:27.480 the elevated position, but as well as the police officer. 144 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:30.680 Listeners can go to our website to see a side 145 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:34.320 by side comparison of the suspect sketch distributed by police 146 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:38.679 after the Stein murder and an enhanced image of margois Merril. 147 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.840 Let me repeat it is enhanced and clearly marked, so 148 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:45.559 so no one has to claim subterfuge on our part. 149 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:49.320 How is it enhanced? Eyeglasses were added and the hair 150 00:08:49.399 --> 00:08:52.960 was shortened to the length described by the witnesses. So 151 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:55.840 we added eyeglasses to the photo. But it is a 152 00:08:55.879 --> 00:09:00.399 fact that Margolis Merrill wore glasses, and on this you 153 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.879 can find the suspects prescriptions for eyeglasses issued by the 154 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:08.720 VA under his real name Margolis. Okay. Next, let's go 155 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:13.039 with medical skill, another easy box to check. Detectives investigating 156 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:16.080 the Elizabeth Short murder concluded that it took a degree 157 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:19.960 of medical knowledge and skill to carry out the bisection 158 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:21.960 of her body, as well as some of the other 159 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:26.320 tortures visited upon her, but they didn't conclude that it 160 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:29.799 was someone with expert surgical skills, as some have claimed 161 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.360 over the years. While it is clear from the investigative 162 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.519 records that they approached local hospitals and made inquiries about 163 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:42.799 surgeons acting suspiciously, they also asked about nurses acting suspiciously. 164 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:47.399 They also went to the University of Southern California, located 165 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:50.399 near where the black Dahia's body was found, and asked 166 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.279 for a list of students enrolled into medical school at 167 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:54.320 the time of the murder. 168 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:59.360 Well, from the get go, the corner surgeon. 169 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.440 Clearly that he believed it was somebody had medical knowledge 170 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:07.120 or knowledge of human anatomy, which is present if you 171 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:12.000 look at the mutilation. But for them to believe there 172 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:15.960 was only a skilled surgeon is outlandish, and the reason 173 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:20.279 being is they themselves were a going to USC medical school. 174 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.120 Get he listed three hundred students that they were checking individually. 175 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:26.039 If they truly believed it was a skilled surgeon, who 176 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.879 would never have had that list generated for the. 177 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.840 FBI either way. Marvin Check's at box he was attending 178 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:36.679 USC's medical school at the time of the killing, and, 179 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:39.879 according to police records, had engaged in a dissection of 180 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:43.039 a human body in the months before the Dallia murder, 181 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:45.879 and prior to that, he had been a Navy corman 182 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.840 attached to a marine unit during the World War II 183 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:53.320 battle on Okinawa. He dealt with wounded soldiers in the 184 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:58.159 battlefield hospital. As it says in the investigative records, he 185 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:04.759 cared for many quote mangled soldiers. Moving on, let's go 186 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:09.759 with firearms training. Remember three of the Zodiac attacks involved shootings. 187 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:13.080 Yeah, Marvin had plenty of training. He was a naval corman, 188 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:16.120 which their training is specific. Daring world War two was 189 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:19.639 with a forty five APC. The backstory this is is 190 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:23.759 Daring world War two the medics or the corman when 191 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:27.120 they were in action, they carried only a sidearm and 192 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:27.759 they had to. 193 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:28.799 Be proficient with it. 194 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:32.399 And that being said, we know that Zodiac was extremely 195 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:35.440 proficient with Is he hit Jensen. 196 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:39.120 Running in the dark. He claims he had a flashlight 197 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:39.840 that he taped. 198 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:42.279 To the barrel, But even at that point for him 199 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.879 to hit a moving target in the dark as as 200 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:49.120 it's going away from you is very impressive. 201 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:52.120 And the five rounds are in close proximity of each 202 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:57.519 other in her back. So he did have some skill 203 00:11:57.759 --> 00:11:59.600 as a marksman with a cyber. 204 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.840 The victim Baber was referring to there was Betty Lou Jensen, 205 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:07.639 who was shot to death in the Zodiac Killer's first 206 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:16.320 known attack December twentieth, nineteen sixty eight. Our next box 207 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:21.960 is an important one cryptographic expertise. The Zodiac composed four 208 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.600 ciphers that were mailed to Bay Area newspapers. The first 209 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.600 was cracked in a week, but the next three stood 210 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:30.759 the test of time and were not broken for more 211 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:36.000 than fifty years. That shows some serious expertise. If margois 212 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:39.200 Merrill was the Zodiac, where did he get it? 213 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:42.919 To be honest, I don't think we could ever positively 214 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:46.639 identify this background in cryptography, and the reason being is 215 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.639 unless we discover another piece of evidence or a cryptography 216 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.759 book in the storage or possession that he left behind, we. 217 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:55.720 Really can't be sure. 218 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.679 What we do know is that being an autodiak polymaths 219 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.320 like myself, he would be able to teach himself and 220 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:04.480 it wouldn't have been very difficult, and he did make 221 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:08.840 mistakes which are our key that shows he is an amateur, 222 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:12.039 much like myself. But we also know that he had 223 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:16.200 a background with one of the World War Two soldiers, 224 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.679 Bill Robinson, who was selected by General MacArthur for the 225 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:25.000 Senate Unit which is turned into the NSA. You know, 226 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:30.600 it is the top tier of cryptography our cryptoanalysis. To 227 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:33.679 have that as a roommate and a friend at the time, 228 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.159 meaning just following World War Two, where it's fresh. He 229 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:39.600 just got out. You know, we don't know if he 230 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.080 could have had a manueghing around. He may have shared 231 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:44.600 it with Marvin. He was interested in cryptography. 232 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:45.279 We will never know. 233 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:47.360 What we do know is that it's there and it 234 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:51.279 was available, and at that point that opens a door 235 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:54.120 for us on a circumstantial level. 236 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:54.639 Is okay. 237 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:57.399 He may have had or had been exposed to it 238 00:13:57.519 --> 00:13:58.480 through Bill Robinson. 239 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.559 In case you're wondering, Bill Robinson died of cancer in 240 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.639 nineteen fifty nine, but we'll have much more to say 241 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:08.960 about him down the line. In another episode of the podcast, 242 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:13.240 I also went to our team of former NSA cryptologists 243 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.960 to ask about Margolis Merrill's code making skills and how 244 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.519 he might have gotten them. Combined, these guys have more 245 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:25.440 than fifty years as classified codebreakers with the NSA. They 246 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:28.960 believe that the Zodiac ciphers have their origins in military 247 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:32.399 code making, and that there were books and other sources 248 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:36.600 that would have been available to Margolis Merrill. This is 249 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:38.600 Patrick Henry and Ed Georgio. 250 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.440 So the book that I believe would have been the 251 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:49.080 most readily available was by Helen Gaines, and it's called 252 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:54.440 Cryptanalysis A study of cipher's and a solution and you 253 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.519 can see on the cover a sort of grid based 254 00:14:57.559 --> 00:15:02.799 cipher right that the Omi fel Wild Manual on Basic Cryptography, 255 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:06.919 which was actually published in nineteen fifty after the war. 256 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.559 So it's not clear that he would have had access 257 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.519 to that specifically, but other materials, similar materials may have 258 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:21.600 been available to him during training, or he spent some 259 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:26.480 time living with a cryptographer, so he may have had 260 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.799 access to materials like that. And then the third is 261 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:34.360 from nineteen sixteen Manual for the Solution of Military Ciphers 262 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:40.559 by Papa hit and that was not quite so readily available. 263 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.120 It was never classified, but I don't think it was 264 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:51.080 particularly widely circulated, whereas Gaines' book was available widely and 265 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:52.720 we published several times. 266 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:57.000 We also think that Bill Robinson might have had that 267 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:01.960 little technical article in his backpack or something, or his 268 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:05.879 duffel bag or should say that's pure speculation, but. 269 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:11.120 Absolutely so, there may have been other materials that basically 270 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.080 had the same kind of contents available that. 271 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.120 It's another box that has caused for possible debate is 272 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:24.919 modus operandi and more specifically, the question surrounding how different 273 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.120 the murder of Elizabeth Short was from the Zodiac killings. 274 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:32.320 Elizabeth Short's murder was, by all counts, a personal and 275 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:36.320 passionate attack. Every profiler who has looked at the case 276 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:40.559 has concluded that she knew her killer. The Zodiac killings, 277 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.840 more than twenty years later were likely random stranger killings 278 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.120 and most involved firearms. How do we account for these 279 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.840 changes in mL do we have to account for them? 280 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:55.759 I went to our veteran homicide detectives of this one. 281 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.200 Missy Roberts told me that Margolis Merrill was smart and 282 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.559 had aoute mind for murder, and that is changing m 283 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.039 does not bother or change her conclusions at all. 284 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.880 Yeah, it really doesn't because for numerous reasons. 285 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:13.839 But one of the biggest ones is if you look 286 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:17.160 at just the Zodiac case, his MO switches in just 287 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.359 that case alone, Like if you don't even look at 288 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:22.119 the Black Dahia, you know, like the taxi cab drivers 289 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:23.880 is completely random. 290 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:25.400 To the case. 291 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:28.319 And I think it's one of the reasons why it's 292 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.400 always been so hard to catch this guy is because 293 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.920 he was so unpredictable and all over the place, and 294 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.519 maybe you know, it was part of the game that 295 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:42.079 he played. I would say that it's no doubt that 296 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.680 the Zodiac and the Black Dahlia, they left these little 297 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:47.880 clues and this mystery, and so though it wouldn't surprise 298 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:50.599 me that one of the things he decided to do 299 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:54.079 to sort of enhance that mystery would be to change his. 300 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:59.160 Mo Rick Jackson suggests there are more things binding the 301 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.359 cases together in terms of mo than separating them, starting 302 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:05.119 with the taunting of the public. 303 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:11.599 Here's my take on the taunting, the letter sending the 304 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:16.839 police to the media in this matter. I have worked 305 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:21.079 homicide for thirty six years, twenty eight with LAPD in 306 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:25.039 the last eight in cold cases in San Mateo County. 307 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.440 I have never had. 308 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:34.519 One case where a killer taunted communicated with like in 309 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:38.519 these two cases, the Zodiac and the Black Dalu. I've 310 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.799 never had that happen in any of my cases. And 311 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.640 I've worked with hundreds of investigators over those years, and 312 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:48.759 I've never known of any of them to have a 313 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:53.920 case that this type of thing happened. It is so rare. 314 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:59.480 It's an amazing thing. Actually, it's really kind of interesting. 315 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.160 And you have to have the right mindset to be 316 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.559 able to do that, and the confidence are arrogance to 317 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.799 be able to do that, because you're just increasing the chances, 318 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:13.400 especially nowadays and getting caught. The conting is just another 319 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:17.440 piece of circumstantial evidence that really is very, very strong. 320 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:23.680 I was wondering, when you have the Dahia reaching out 321 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:28.079 to the media and the Zodiac reaching out, what about 322 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:31.680 Marvin Merrill himself. Did he have a pension for courting 323 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:35.680 the media as himself Alex Babers says the answer is 324 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:39.599 an unequivocal yes, that he often sought media attention for 325 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:43.160 himself and the many businesses he operated in the course 326 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:43.920 of his life. 327 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:47.480 That was another thing that surprised me when we dug 328 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.759 into his background. 329 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:49.680 Is this guy was a media account. 330 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:55.119 He loved his face or name in the newspaper, and 331 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.400 he would he would write the editors of newspapers and 332 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:01.079 make these strange comments. You know, the one that he's 333 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.359 sent locally to San Diego when you lived in the 334 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:09.920 Oceanside was about violent demonstrations being statements. You know, used 335 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:14.000 to be the demonstrations or there res demonstrations that gets violence, 336 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:18.119 but now violence becomes the demonstration itself, and that kind 337 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.920 of you know, I'm like, is he talking about what 338 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:24.240 he's doing? Or what he's going to do here, and 339 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:27.279 then we found out also in his nineteen sixty one Wellington, 340 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:31.799 Kansas article, he admits in the article that he loves poetry, 341 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.599 he loves antique books, and by the way, he's a 342 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:39.599 former newspaper correspondent. He literally states that in his interview. 343 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.599 Was calling himself a newspaper correspondent, a subtle hint to 344 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.880 his correspondence as a Black Dahia avenger. One has to 345 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.559 think Merrill had a good laugh to himself about that. 346 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.920 You can see a sampling of his correspondence as Marvin 347 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:59.839 Merrill on the podcast website. Related to the discussion of 348 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.599 it is what I call the interval box, meaning how 349 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:06.440 do we account for the almost twenty two years between 350 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:10.039 the Black dalli and murder and the Zodiac killings. We'll 351 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.599 check this box later in the podcast when we reveal 352 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:17.920 evidence that sadly, there wasn't an interval at all, that 353 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:22.319 there were murders committed by Margolis Merrill in between Elizabeth 354 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:26.039 Shorts killing and the five murders officially credited by law 355 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:33.319 enforcement to the Zodiac. Next time, the list is the 356 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:36.880 engineering box. There's a bit of a contradiction here the 357 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:39.200 Zodiac showed a high level of skill when it came 358 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.440 to his last cipher and its use of measurements of 359 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:46.599 radians and degrees on a map, but he also supplied 360 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:50.160 the schematic drawing of a bomb he allegedly planted that 361 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.720 showed a basic knowledge of electric circuitry, yes, but was 362 00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:57.200 also almost childlike and flawed. 363 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.680 We identified that he had a background in engineering and surveying. 364 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.200 We located an article where he's a otion side in 365 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:12.000 the early sixties and he's a engineer architect and he 366 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.200 runs this company called the Project Consultants is what it's called. 367 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:20.759 And knowing that and digging deeper into it, his knowledge 368 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:23.880 of ratings and degrees would have been necessary in order 369 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:26.559 to hold that position. And that's very interesting when he 370 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.559 took it into in delight the Z thirty two and 371 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:32.759 the letter that says, you know, the Mount Diablo map 372 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:37.720 concerns ratings and inches in particular. So we knew that 373 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:39.799 he had the background to do this, and for the 374 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:45.039 first time we have a suspect that has that background 375 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.799 that the block needs to be checked, and Marvin does that. 376 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.079 We will have further discussions about this when we get 377 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:56.440 to the Z thirty two cipher in a few minutes. 378 00:22:57.160 --> 00:22:59.319 There are many more boxes to check, and we will 379 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:01.599 get to them all in the course of the podcast. 380 00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:05.920 But the last box to discuss today is proximity. This 381 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:09.920 is an important one. Can we place Margolis Merrill in 382 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:14.960 geographic proximity to the killings with the Dahlia murder? That's easy. 383 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.319 He briefly lived with Elizabeth Short just three months before 384 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:22.160 her murder. Police records call him her last known boyfriend. 385 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.640 He lived in the Guardian Arms apartments on Hollywood Boulevard 386 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:30.519 and was known to be taking pre med's classes at USC. 387 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:34.240 So the challenge with this box is in putting Meryl 388 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:36.960 Margolis in the Bay Area at the time of the 389 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.640 Zodiac killings. Records indicate Meryl kept a home near San 390 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.480 Diego through the late sixties and into the seventies, but 391 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:49.480 records also placed him in San Jose in nineteen sixty nine, 392 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.559 where he rented a house under the name Skip Merrill, 393 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:56.160 another alias that draws on his birth name of Marvin 394 00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:01.440 Skipton Margolis. It appears he rented the house while still 395 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.720 maintaining a home near San Diego where his family lived. 396 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.920 This coincides with a period of time when, according to 397 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.440 his son, he was working as an engineer for Intel, 398 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:16.559 the semiconductor chip company located in Santa Clara. In one 399 00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:19.559 of the boxes of documents the Sun turned over to 400 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:23.440 the investigation, we found Intel business cards in the name 401 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:27.480