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Speaker 8: the smartest way to hire Truman. Compodent's best selling book
Speaker 8: in Cold Blood has captivated worldwide audiences for over fifty years.
Speaker 8: It is a gripping story about the consequences of a
Speaker 8: trivial robbery gone terribly wrong in a remote village of
Speaker 8: western Kansas. But what if robbery was not the motive
Speaker 8: at all, but something more sinister? And why would the
Speaker 8: Kansas Bureau of Investigation press the Attorney General to launch
Speaker 8: a ruthless four year legal battle to prevent fresh details
Speaker 8: of the state's most famous crime from being made public
Speaker 8: so many years after the case had been solved. Based
Speaker 8: on stunning new details discovered in the personal journals and
Speaker 8: archives of former KBI director Harold Nye and corroborated by
Speaker 8: letters written by Richard Hiccock, one of the killers on
Speaker 8: death Row, and Every Word Is True meticulously lays out
Speaker 8: a vivid and startling new view of the investigation, one
Speaker 8: that will keep readers on the edge of their seats
Speaker 8: as they pick up work body left off. Even readers
Speaker 8: new to the story will find themselves drawn into a
Speaker 8: spellbinding forensic investigation that reads like a thriller, adding new
Speaker 8: perspectives to the classic tale of an iconic American crime
Speaker 8: sixty years after news of the nineteen fifty nine Clutter
Speaker 8: murders took the world stage. And Every Word Is True
Speaker 8: pulls back the curtain for a suspenseful encore to the
Speaker 8: true story of In Cold Blood. Book that here featuring
Speaker 8: this evening is and every Word Is True. Newfound evidence
Speaker 8: reveals Truman Capote's In Cold Blood is not the end
Speaker 8: of the story. With my special guest author Gary McAvoy.
Speaker 8: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 8: agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 6: Gary McAvoy, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me a pleasure
Speaker 6: to be here.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much. The pleasure will be allmine and
Speaker 8: our audiences.
Speaker 1: This is an.
Speaker 8: Incredible case and a credible and investigation that you've undertaken
Speaker 8: with this and every word is true now as you
Speaker 8: writ in this book, this book is a result of
Speaker 8: over six years of research which included I'm going to
Speaker 8: ask you what that research included specifically, but this was
Speaker 8: dedicated to the career and memory of Harold R. Nie
Speaker 8: Kansas Bureau of Investigation. Now, Truman Capoti claimed that In
Speaker 8: Cold Blood is a completely factual account and every word
Speaker 8: is true, and your book includes a Ford by Ronald R. Nie.
Speaker 8: Now tell us about you say this book was based
Speaker 8: on stunning new details discovered in the personal journals and
Speaker 8: archives of former KBI Director at Harold Nie. Tell us
Speaker 8: a little bit about this forward by Ronald R. Nie,
Speaker 8: about his father and about these personal journals he discovered.
Speaker 8: Tell us about that.
Speaker 6: First sure Dan Well Harold and I was a career
Speaker 6: law enforcement officer from his early twenties. In fact, he
Speaker 6: joined the KBI when he was around twenty three, and
Speaker 6: his entire life, through all his law enforcement positions, he
Speaker 6: had maintained reporter's notebooks, those thin notebooks that slipped easily
Speaker 6: into your pocket. And he'd had some hundreds of these
Speaker 6: that he'd collected over his career, and he kept them
Speaker 6: in banker's boxes up in the attic of his home.
Speaker 6: And ron who grew up under his roof, of course,
Speaker 6: always knew they were there, but was told never to
Speaker 6: open the boxes, never to look inside them. Well, when
Speaker 6: his dad passed in two thousand and three, his mother
Speaker 6: decided to clean up all the stuff that her husband
Speaker 6: had been collecting, and he was a major collector, and
Speaker 6: had the boxes shredded. Fourteen of the boxes anyway, but
Speaker 6: there was one box left in Harold's office that she missed.
Speaker 6: That box ended up in the trash some days later,
Speaker 6: and when Ron came by to help his mother clean
Speaker 6: out the house, he looked in the trash and saw
Speaker 6: that saw two books that Truman Capodi had given Harold
Speaker 6: and I some years ago, both of them signed first editions.
Speaker 6: One was in Cold Blood, the other was selected writings
Speaker 6: by Capodi, and another folder containing various documents, official case
Speaker 6: reports and Harold's two of Harold's notebooks that he had
Speaker 6: compiled on the Clutter murder case.
Speaker 8: Right now, with this, with this discovery, he has these boxes. Ronald,
Speaker 8: being Harold's son, tell us a little bit about more
Speaker 8: about Harold and especially for our audience that doesn't know
Speaker 8: the role that we just spoke about briefly in the introduction,
Speaker 8: But who was Harold ny to this Clutter investigation, to
Speaker 8: the nineteen fifty nine November murders. Who was Harold ny
Speaker 8: to that? Before we talk about what Ron learned from
Speaker 8: looking through those journals and through that information, what did
Speaker 8: he know at that time? And then tell us the
Speaker 8: circumstances that you were to be introduced to Ronald.
Speaker 6: Sure, yeah, Harold was one of four principal investigators, along
Speaker 6: with Alvin Dewey Clarence dun Sinroy Church, who handled the
Speaker 6: Clutter murder case. There were about eighteen investigators overall, and
Speaker 6: Harold was the lead field investigator, while Alvin Dewey was
Speaker 6: the case coordinator with an office at the Sheriff's office
Speaker 6: in Garden City where the crime took plaks and Harold
Speaker 6: did all the interviews, the majority of interviews with townspeople,
Speaker 6: the families of each of the killers once they were identified,
Speaker 6: and traveled down to Mexico and across the country wherever
Speaker 6: he needed to be taken for these interviews. And what
Speaker 6: was the second part of your question, Well, what was.
Speaker 8: As Ronald would discover? I mean, he knew he was
Speaker 8: his father was a dedicated cop and real hard nosed
Speaker 8: and there was this room where these journals were. But
Speaker 8: what did he find out about by cursory look at
Speaker 8: those journals? Information did he find out?
Speaker 6: Well, actually, ron didn't actually look at the journals. He
Speaker 6: just knew that there was some value to them. And
Speaker 6: he was actually in a position with his ex wife
Speaker 6: who needed medical attention, and there are medical expenses that
Speaker 6: ron opted to take care of were mounting and he
Speaker 6: needed to find some way of income. And he knew
Speaker 6: that these books and letters by Truman Capoti had likely
Speaker 6: had some value to them, and so he turned to me,
Speaker 6: being referred to me by Christie's auction House in New York.
Speaker 6: I had been a dealer of literary manuscripts and first
Speaker 6: edition books for some twenty five years now, and Ron
Speaker 6: approached me in twenty twelve believing that these letters and
Speaker 6: had some value to them, and so we decided amount
Speaker 6: special auction for the materials, which included both the two books,
Speaker 6: two great letters that Truman had written Harold n. I,
Speaker 6: and then a passel of other documents that Harold had
Speaker 6: collected in his casework. When the Kansas Bureau of Investigation
Speaker 6: or the KBI heard about pending sale, they issued a
Speaker 6: cease and desist, which soon turned into a lawsuit and
Speaker 6: that prevented the sale and publication of the materials. Ultimately,
Speaker 6: after a grueling four years in court, we ultimately won
Speaker 6: and asked how the book came to be. But in
Speaker 6: reading these materials, since I had to compile a through
Speaker 6: the discovery process in court, I had to compile everything
Speaker 6: that was in the nine archives, and as I began
Speaker 6: reading these materials, I realized that this was a much
Speaker 6: different story I was reading from the primary source documents
Speaker 6: than the story that the Truman the PODi had told
Speaker 6: an in Cold Blood.
Speaker 8: You write in a book that at that time, in
Speaker 8: your role in your occupation, that you weren't a true
Speaker 8: crime fan at all, and that if the Kansas Bureau
Speaker 8: of Investigation hadn't launched this lawsuit preventing this auction, then
Speaker 8: you wouldn't have looked at these materials very carefully at all,
Speaker 8: because there would have been no reasons for the auction. Now,
Speaker 8: what was the reason? What was the reason you talk
Speaker 8: about in the book in more detail and very very
Speaker 8: interesting and vivid that Ron gets a call first from
Speaker 8: the Kansas Bureau of Investigation and then you get a
Speaker 8: call from the same person. What is the premise, what's
Speaker 8: the reason why they want this information and their reasoning
Speaker 8: for this information to not be auctioned?
Speaker 6: That was never really clear to either of us. Their
Speaker 6: claim was that these were confidential investigation documents that held
Speaker 6: confidential material which was never disclosed, which never described rather
Speaker 6: and that there were privacy issues involved. But the actual
Speaker 6: reason why they were so obsessed about securing these was
Speaker 6: never made clear to either of us.
Speaker 8: Now with this you say, this is a legal battle,
Speaker 8: but in this ensuing time you take a look at
Speaker 8: this material very carefully, and hence, as you mentioned, this
Speaker 8: is the genesis of this book. But it doesn't come
Speaker 8: right away. Tell us about this whole discovery. You said
Speaker 8: you went back and it had been since nineteen sixty
Speaker 8: six since you had read Truman Capodi's In Cold Blood,
Speaker 8: so you started there. What are the other things that
Speaker 8: you looked at, read and basically part of an investigation
Speaker 8: of sorts. What did you do in this research?
Speaker 6: Oh gosh, yeah, Well, first I re read Capote's book
Speaker 6: In Cold Blood so that the material was fresh to me.
Speaker 6: Then I watched the nineteen sixty seventh film of the
Speaker 6: same name. There was also Canadian production. I basically absorbed
Speaker 6: everything I could about the case, and that included Gerald
Speaker 6: Clark's fine biography called Capodi, George Plimpton's book on Capote's
Speaker 6: friends and Acquaintances and Detractors, several other books of scholarship
Speaker 6: about Capodi and In Cold Blood in particular, and basically
Speaker 6: became more or less early an expert on the Clutter
Speaker 6: murder case. And then I dug into the material itself,
Speaker 6: and that's where I started making rational compare risons as
Speaker 6: to what I was reading versus what I had read
Speaker 6: with these other materials, and distinctive differences came out that
Speaker 6: made it clear to me that that could be the
Speaker 6: reason why Kansas wanted this material so desperately.
Speaker 8: You knew something was we'll say a foul here, but
Speaker 8: I wanted to know just me personally reading this at
Speaker 8: that time when you looked at this, were you aware
Speaker 8: of the existing criticism of Capodi and the book in
Speaker 8: true crib And.
Speaker 6: Oh sure, yeah. For years many people had poked holes
Speaker 6: in cold blood, And in fact, the first one to
Speaker 6: do it was doctor Philip Tompkins from the University of
Speaker 6: Colorado back in nineteen sixty six, just a month a
Speaker 6: couple months after the book came out, and he actually
Speaker 6: made a nine day trip to Kansas to verify many
Speaker 6: of the points that Capodi had made and discovered that
Speaker 6: some of the salient points were, let's say, less than accurate.
Speaker 6: But there's a long history of many people identifying issues
Speaker 6: with Capodi's veracity, so it's not really a lot.
Speaker 1: Of news.
Speaker 8: When you start looking at this material again. The journals themselves,
Speaker 8: the notebooks themselves, you write were especially important or interesting.
Speaker 8: Tell us about some of the very first discoveries that
Speaker 8: you made that you thought when you got the information
Speaker 8: and all those sources that you had looked at. What
Speaker 8: was the first interesting, we'll say, blatant contradiction from in
Speaker 8: Cold Blood.
Speaker 6: Well, there's one scene in Cold Blood, and the readers
Speaker 6: of the book and viewers of the film in particular
Speaker 6: will remember this where Harold and I is alone at
Speaker 6: the Hickcock farm interviewing Hitcock's father, Walter, and he spots
Speaker 6: the murder weapons, a shotgun and a knife, a savage
Speaker 6: twelve gage shotgun and a hunting knife, and while his
Speaker 6: hand is shaking, this is how the scene is described.
Speaker 6: He does nothing at the time Capodi reports this is
Speaker 6: happening five days before it actually happened. And then I
Speaker 6: was and at that point I was accompanied by several
Speaker 6: other agents with a formal search warrant. It's a pretty
Speaker 6: important detail to have gotten wrong, but it surely made
Speaker 6: for a dramatic scene in the book and the movie.
Speaker 8: In this research you also Ronald talks about the relationship
Speaker 8: his father had with Capodi and a couple of the
Speaker 8: events that he had witnessed himself. Tell us about Harold
Speaker 8: NY's relationship with Capodi, Well, it was during a.
Speaker 6: Time where homosexuality was not as accepted as it was today,
Speaker 6: and Capodi made no attempts to tone his effeminacy down,
Speaker 6: not that he was expected to, but he was entering
Speaker 6: the heartland, midwestern town that had never seen anyone so
Speaker 6: splashy as he was. And Harold and I in particular
Speaker 6: was not a fan of Capodi's theatrics. Let's say so,
Speaker 6: I think that that was he'd already prejudged him at
Speaker 6: that point. But uh, capodis his job was also to
Speaker 6: get as much information as he could about an ongoing investigation,
Speaker 6: and Harold and I held firm of the policies and
Speaker 6: protocols of investigative work and would not give them anything.
Speaker 6: That's not the case without the Dewey. But that's that's
Speaker 6: for another that's for another time.
Speaker 8: You you will underestimate, I'm sorry, go ahead, you really
Speaker 8: What we've skipped over a little bit, though, is that
Speaker 8: the incredible efforts that you you Again, this is very
Speaker 8: vivid where you say Harold was suspicious and definitely.
Speaker 6: Not.
Speaker 8: He didn't like his theatrics and the and the flamboyants,
Speaker 8: but and he also didn't like that he was always
Speaker 8: being pressed for details on the investigation. He knew that's
Speaker 8: what was going on. But he took them out tonight clubs,
Speaker 8: and he offered to take him to his famous black
Speaker 8: or be invited to his famous black white masked ball.
Speaker 8: That was rud elbows with celebrities. And I think when
Speaker 8: you mentioned Alan Dewey, maybe we should talk about Alan
Speaker 8: Dewey because the difference in the In Cold Blood is
Speaker 8: Dewey's role in the book and Harold Nye's role in
Speaker 8: the book. And as you're right where Ronald is witnessed
Speaker 8: to say that when Harold received a copy of In
Speaker 8: Cold Blood, what was his reaction?
Speaker 6: He threw it across the room. He claims he read
Speaker 6: just I guess about a third of it, threw it
Speaker 6: across the room, calling it a fiction. He also when
Speaker 6: he went he and his wife Joyce went to the
Speaker 6: film see the film as on our guests, he walked
Speaker 6: out after fifteen minutes saying it. We don't know what
Speaker 6: he said, but he was not happy with the treatment
Speaker 6: of the clutters.
Speaker 8: What was the relationship with the Clutters and Harold and I.
Speaker 6: They didn't know each other. The Clutters were members of
Speaker 6: or rather they lived in Garden City and Harold and
Speaker 6: his family lived in Topeka where the KBI headquarters was,
Speaker 6: so they did not know each other. Dewey was very
Speaker 6: close to the Clutters, Alvin Dewey, he was They were
Speaker 6: both part of the same Methodist church group and both
Speaker 6: Sunday School so they were very close.
Speaker 8: Which leads me to my next question. Let's talk about
Speaker 8: Herb Clutter because in this book and in this investigation,
Speaker 8: in an your research, you find out that Herb Clutter,
Speaker 8: I mean very simple story that Truman Capodi tries to
Speaker 8: does portray in Cole Blood, that this innocent family is
Speaker 8: killed for less than fifty dollars. It's a senseless couple
Speaker 8: of psycho paths and case closed. Tell us about Herbert
Speaker 8: Clutter and his importance in the community, and also some
Speaker 8: of the things that you found out about Herbert Clutter.
Speaker 6: Well up until his death in nineteen fifty nine. Herb
Speaker 6: Clutter was a very prominent farmer in western Kansas, indeed
Speaker 6: a pillar of this community. He was very successful at
Speaker 6: a time when many others were losing their farms to
Speaker 6: a variety of economic factors. Clutter was also politically powerful,
Speaker 6: having been appointed by President Dwight Eisenhower to the Federal
Speaker 6: Farm Credit Board. He was also founder of the National
Speaker 6: and the Kansas Association of Wheat Growers and various local
Speaker 6: organizations in the local farming co op in Garden City,
Speaker 6: as well as a prominent leader in his Methodist church group.
Speaker 6: And a little bit more about the family. Clutter and
Speaker 6: his wife, Bonnie had four children, two of whom still
Speaker 6: lived at home, both in their mid teens. Missus Clutter
Speaker 6: had been suffering from severe postpartum depression for many years
Speaker 6: following the birth of their last child, Kenyon, and even
Speaker 6: up until her death she was virtually bedridden, with their
Speaker 6: daughter Nancy, and the housekeeper name isssus Helm taking care
Speaker 6: of most of the household duties while mother was frequently
Speaker 6: away at a psychiatric clinic in Wichita.
Speaker 8: So Herbert was an upstanding citizen, but he was very
Speaker 8: much important, very important, especially in that you write that
Speaker 8: he was instrumental and importan in writing policy or affecting policy, was.
Speaker 6: An important in it.
Speaker 8: And you also talk about the time and It's always
Speaker 8: has to be referenced in here that we just come
Speaker 8: out of McCarthyism, and so socialism was not seen any
Speaker 8: kind of well, social engineering, but any kind of intervention
Speaker 8: by government was not seen by everybody as benevolent or
Speaker 8: not agreed upon by everybody at that time.
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, it's he was. Clutter was very policy oriented
Speaker 6: in setting farming was His approach to farming was to
Speaker 6: ensure we are parody pricing for weed farmers. And he
Speaker 6: had one major opponent in government, and that was the
Speaker 6: Secretary of Agriculture at the time, a man named Ezra
Speaker 6: Taft Benson. Benson was a virulent anti socialis and he
Speaker 6: viewed government pricing parody as a form of socialism that
Speaker 6: would not stand. So he had at least one prominent
Speaker 6: enemy in government.
Speaker 8: Were there any instances that from witnesses around that time,
Speaker 8: an investigation from Harold Nye that would indicate any kind
Speaker 8: of animosity or enemies in his business dealings in the
Speaker 8: community of Garden City, Oh sure, Yeah.
Speaker 6: In Harold NIC's notebooks he records many, I mean at
Speaker 6: least a dozen episodes of threats against HERB. Clutter for
Speaker 6: various infractions in his business dealings in the community, contracts,
Speaker 6: broken payments not made, promises not kept. So there were
Speaker 6: people who had lived really threatened Herb Clutter and let
Speaker 6: it be known around town that there were there were threats.
Speaker 6: So as as as clean and squeaky clean as Campodi
Speaker 6: may have made the Herbert Clutter, he had his dark sides,
Speaker 6: at least in at least in the business community.
Speaker 8: You also write to and not to, you know, to
Speaker 8: again say things that can't be backed up or substantiated.
Speaker 8: But you talk about the relationship, the friendship with Dewey
Speaker 8: and mister Clutter and the Clutters, and then the idea
Speaker 8: and the investigation by Herald that because of missus Clutter's illness,
Speaker 8: they hadn't been well, hadn't slept together for many maybe
Speaker 8: a decade. So in the book there is some speculation
Speaker 8: that there could have been a possible affair. Was there
Speaker 8: anything to that? And I mentioned Dewey is that would
Speaker 8: he wanted would he wanted to protect his friend's reputation
Speaker 8: with working with rum Mcampodi.
Speaker 6: To your first point, yes, that we do have evidence
Speaker 6: in the official reports that mister Clutter was very likely
Speaker 6: having an affair with the wife.
Speaker 2: Of his.
Speaker 6: Is the executor to the Clutter estate, a man named
Speaker 6: Kenneth Lyon, and his Kenneth Lyon was also the former
Speaker 6: business partner of her Clutter. And it was because of
Speaker 6: Missus Clutter's condition lasting so long many in the town,
Speaker 6: including the Clutter's own physician and psychiatrists, believed that Clutter
Speaker 6: and mister Missus Clutter had not had intimate relations for
Speaker 6: at least ten years. So Herb in his early forties
Speaker 6: was a vibrant power man, and it's believed it's it
Speaker 6: was no one around town, and he probably had his fun.
Speaker 6: In fact, then I found those exact words and Harper
Speaker 6: Lee's notes and the Truman Capodi archives in New York
Speaker 6: Public Library that he had his fun on the side
Speaker 6: and Bonnie probably knew it.
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Speaker 8: Right now with us too. When we talked about Alan
Speaker 8: Dewey and his role in this with Timmy coopode, tell
Speaker 8: us what that role was in terms of the writing
Speaker 8: of this book.
Speaker 6: Because Harold and I didn't well, exacerbated by the fact
Speaker 6: that Harold and I didn't get along with CAPI, Capodia
Speaker 6: did find a compliant ally in Altan Dewey and his
Speaker 6: wife Marie, and the two of them, the three of
Speaker 6: them became quite close swelled forth include Harper Lee, and
Speaker 6: that friendship lasted for many, many years, and the Dewey's
Speaker 6: being so close with Capodi were the beneficiaries of his generosity,
Speaker 6: which many have looked at as a reward for Dewey
Speaker 6: having exposed much of the collect the investigation details to Capodi,
Speaker 6: which made the book so so richly infused with detail.
Speaker 8: You say that talk about Dewey and his wife benefiting
Speaker 8: from the largess, but we're talking about you talk about
Speaker 8: the job that she got in Hollywood and just the
Speaker 8: money at that time. The money at that time, you say,
Speaker 8: was the equivalent of one hundred thousand dollars today, I
Speaker 8: guess tell us a little bit more about.
Speaker 6: That, sure, yeah, Marine Dewey landed a plumb roll with
Speaker 6: Columbia Pictures during the production of the nineteen sixty seven
Speaker 6: film In Cold Blood, as simply as a titled Technical Consultants,
Speaker 6: for which she was paid the equivalent of around seventy
Speaker 6: thousand dollars. Today. Compodies sold that whole script for fifteen
Speaker 6: thousand dollars. At the time, so her reward was it
Speaker 6: was significant.
Speaker 8: Right now, in reading through this we also talk about
Speaker 8: a person named mister Roberts. We also talk about Floyd Wells.
Speaker 8: So let's talk about Floyd Wells and his relationship to
Speaker 8: Harold Nye and of course his relationship to the Hiccock
Speaker 8: and the Clutter case. Inevitable.
Speaker 6: Sure, Floyd Wells was an inmate at the Kansas State
Speaker 6: Penitentiary and for this round of incarceration he was busted
Speaker 6: for stealing lawnmowers for a lawn cutting business he wanted
Speaker 6: to start. Now. When Perry Smith was parolled from the
Speaker 6: Kansas State Penitentiary, this was in well mid nineteen fifty nine,
Speaker 6: Wells was assigned to Dick Hickcock's cell. Hiccock was in
Speaker 6: prison at the time for grand larceny. The two of them,
Speaker 6: Wells and Hiccock got to talking about Wells having worked
Speaker 6: for a rich farmer in the western Kansas some ten
Speaker 6: years earlier, a man by the name of her Clutter,
Speaker 6: And he told Hiccock that Clutter had a safe containing
Speaker 6: ten thousand dollars most of the time, often more at
Speaker 6: harvest time. Attracted to that kind of score, Hitcock made
Speaker 6: plans to rob the Clutters when he got out of
Speaker 6: prison about a month later, and he told Wells he
Speaker 6: would cut him in for a share of the score. Ultimately,
Speaker 6: as we know, there was no safe. There was no
Speaker 6: ten thousand dollars, and when Smith and Hitcock hit the
Speaker 6: clutterhouse on November fifteenth, nineteen fifty nine, they murdered the
Speaker 6: entire family after finding less than fifteen dollars, not fifty dollars.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry now. Hiccock claimed that Floyd Wells had given
Speaker 6: him a diagram of the Clutter home, showing all the
Speaker 6: rooms and where each family member slept. But the fact is,
Speaker 6: and by this is by Wells's own admission in court
Speaker 6: and other official documents, Wells had never even been in
Speaker 6: the new house. The Clutters were still building when he
Speaker 6: left their employment in nineteen forty nine. Now, when he
Speaker 6: first informed the KBI that he knew who killed the Clutters,
Speaker 6: Wells was soon interviewed by a KBI agent named Wayne Owens,
Speaker 6: And in that interview, Owens pushed really hard on Wells
Speaker 6: about the safe, but Wells described it in such rich
Speaker 6: detail the agent was evinced there was a safe, Yet
Speaker 6: Wells later lied in court about it, claiming he'd never
Speaker 6: given Haycock any maps or diagrams, nor did he even
Speaker 6: tell him about it. Safe. Now, obviously the KBI knew
Speaker 6: he was committing perjury, yet they allowed Wells with testimony
Speaker 6: to stand.
Speaker 8: Now interestingly too, is that the map outlined where these
Speaker 8: people were in this what was described as a new house.
Speaker 8: That Wells wouldn't even have knew about the new house
Speaker 8: but didn't know any details and couldn't have possibly made
Speaker 8: a map.
Speaker 6: Correct?
Speaker 8: What were to make of that? And then let's talk
Speaker 8: about this mister Roberts and what you found out about
Speaker 8: supposedly this mister Roberts.
Speaker 6: Sure, yeah, the uh. Within mere hours after the murders,
Speaker 6: the night Marshall in Cimarron, which is the famed cowboy
Speaker 6: town just twenty five miles southeast of the scene of
Speaker 6: the crime in Holcombe. That night, Marshall reported three suspicious
Speaker 6: men entering the Western Cafe at around three am, and,
Speaker 6: though it wasn't realized at the time because the clutter
Speaker 6: bodies yet to be discovered, descriptions of two of the
Speaker 6: men bore uncanny resemblances to Smith and Hickcock, and the
Speaker 6: presence of a third man. There is the real mystery,
Speaker 6: since Hitcock, in letters he'd sent to a reporter while
Speaker 6: he was on death row, revealed that the killers were
Speaker 6: to meet someone by the name of Roberts. That's all
Speaker 6: we know Roberts. After the murders, at that point, Hitcock
Speaker 6: was supposed to collect five thousand dollars, which was apparently
Speaker 6: a second payment against a deposit he had already spent.
Speaker 6: We don't know who Roberts is. I spent years trying
Speaker 6: to track that name down, and the only place I
Speaker 6: found in the name was in two motel registers, guest registers,
Speaker 6: both in Garden City, and both the name of d.
Speaker 6: Roberts was listed as a guest again in two separate motels,
Speaker 6: and they both checked out the day before the murderers,
Speaker 6: which I just find remarkably suspicious.
Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, Now we also want to talk about again
Speaker 8: Alvin Dewey and the secret tapes of Hickcock and Smith talking.
Speaker 6: Tell us more about that would and I love to
Speaker 6: hear those during our discovery. During our trial, the are litigation, rather,
Speaker 6: my attorney had two attorneys, one here in Seattle, one
Speaker 6: in Kansas, and our Kansas attorney met with the KBI
Speaker 6: in the bowels of their building in order to pursue
Speaker 6: discovery on our behalf, and he found an audio tape
Speaker 6: in the in the their clutter files that was apparently
Speaker 6: a recording of Richard Hickock and Perry Smith, taken without
Speaker 6: their knowledge. Now, as far as I know, nobody knows
Speaker 6: what's on that tape, at least nobody here. I certainly don't,
Speaker 6: and it's something that I was going to certainly ask
Speaker 6: for in our discovery requests. But that's at that point
Speaker 6: the state decided, knowing that we can have anything we
Speaker 6: asked for, decided to drop the second half of the lawsuit,
Speaker 6: and that kind of scotched our plan get a hold
Speaker 6: of that tape. So it's still there, and i'd love
Speaker 6: to have them release that.
Speaker 8: Part of this too, is that you did the diligent,
Speaker 8: good work of good, really good journalism, and you have
Speaker 8: to get things corroborated. You can't have an idea but
Speaker 8: it's not corroborated as I think you quote, exceptional exceptional
Speaker 8: ideas or notions have to have exceptional evidence of those
Speaker 8: notions assertions. So a miscor yes, let's talk about in
Speaker 8: that corroborating certain.
Speaker 6: Facts.
Speaker 8: In this case, you had the privilege of being able
Speaker 8: to understand or look at information from a person named
Speaker 8: Starling mac Nations and his deal with Dick Hincock while
Speaker 8: he was on death row. Tell us about this fascinating
Speaker 8: deal and its results.
Speaker 6: Yeah, a man with a memorable name of Starling mac
Speaker 6: Nations was a reporter for the Witchita Eagle, and he
Speaker 6: met Hiccock while he was on death row interviewing other
Speaker 6: inmates for a piece he was doing for the Witchta Eagle.
Speaker 6: When he met Hitcock, the two of them ultimately decided
Speaker 6: to collaborate on a book about Hiccock's side of the story,
Speaker 6: a book that would be titled High Road to Hell,
Speaker 6: and a book that was never published no publisher. No
Speaker 6: publisher wanted a publish it since Random House already had
Speaker 6: Compodies in Cold Blood under contract. For the next year
Speaker 6: and a half, Hiccock and Nations exchanged correspondence, with Hiccock
Speaker 6: providing some two hundred handwritten pages of effusively detailed stories
Speaker 6: about the crimes and the killer's cross country road trip
Speaker 6: and Mexican journey, and pretty detailed correspondence, all of which
Speaker 6: the majority of which has been corroborated by the official
Speaker 6: investigation records. But there's a lot of added material in
Speaker 6: there too, which is really when I read those and
Speaker 6: compare them to herald nized notepoots and finding some basis
Speaker 6: for corroboration, that's what really launched the concept for this book.
Speaker 8: Now you also write again fascinating and I hate to
Speaker 8: beat up on Truman Capote, but this is a part
Speaker 8: of the official story, and this is a part of
Speaker 8: taking apart the myth and also looking at some really
Speaker 8: hard facts that Kansas Bureau of Investigation had good reason
Speaker 8: to want this information not to come out. And that
Speaker 8: was the nagging question for you. Why would they go
Speaker 8: to such extraordinary levels lengths this effort to be able
Speaker 8: to suppress this information, and that spurned you on certainly.
Speaker 8: Now we also talk about how Truman Capodi was able
Speaker 8: to get the kinds of interviews and correspondence and all
Speaker 8: of the information he got, and these interviews with Dick
Speaker 8: Hickock and Perry Smith. Despite you just mentioned about mac nations,
Speaker 8: tell us about the rules that had changed and what
Speaker 8: Truman had to do to overcome those rules about this
Speaker 8: kind of thing.
Speaker 6: Are the rules about what now?
Speaker 8: Well, we're talking about just before Truman would attempt to
Speaker 8: be able to interview these inmates. There was rules up
Speaker 8: at that penitentiary that prevented that.
Speaker 6: Right, I've got it now. Yeah, The director of Prisons,
Speaker 6: Colonel Guy rex Road, had a in force that well,
Speaker 6: it actually began with Hickcock and Smith in their incarcerations.
Speaker 6: So many there were the brass ring of front page sensationalism,
Speaker 6: and every journalist wanted to get an interview with Hickcock
Speaker 6: and Smith. The demands became so overwhelming that that Colonel
Speaker 6: rex Road, the director of prisons, invoked a policy that
Speaker 6: nobody could nobody can see the prisoners, and at this
Speaker 6: point they were scheduled for execution, which put off for
Speaker 6: some time with various appeals. But as it turns out
Speaker 6: to Capode's law firm in Garden City was very powerfully
Speaker 6: connected and they managed to get Colonel rex Road to
Speaker 6: waive the policy of no visits for Capodi, which upset
Speaker 6: Starling Magnations to no end since he also had a
Speaker 6: horse in the race. But Capodi apparently paid ten thousand
Speaker 6: dollars to one of the politicians in order to get
Speaker 6: that kind of access.
Speaker 8: As you read book, what kind of Yeah, there was,
Speaker 8: everybody's seen the movie. But what did that incredible access entail.
Speaker 6: Well, that Capodi could go into the prison and sit
Speaker 6: with Hickcock and Smith for as long as he wanted,
Speaker 6: which he did he apparently had. He claims, I don't
Speaker 6: have any basis for this other than his own words
Speaker 6: that he claimed he had hundreds of visits with them,
Speaker 6: which just seemed sony.
Speaker 8: Really Yeah, So when we took when you take the
Speaker 8: information and you're corroborating this information about this meeting, and
Speaker 8: you do as you include in the book, you do
Speaker 8: have make or put together other information that corroborates that
Speaker 8: there was certainly enough time for there to be a meeting.
Speaker 8: When you talk about that, the two people would described
Speaker 8: Smith and Hitcock, we're talking about a noticeable scar on
Speaker 8: his face. Another person they said they looked like they
Speaker 8: had something wrong with their leg was certainly Perry Smith
Speaker 8: had a motorcycle accident. So these kinds of descriptions are
Speaker 8: not just a vague descriptions are very very specific and compelling.
Speaker 8: Basically not at all. So tell us, tell us more
Speaker 8: of the compelling information that came to you to your
Speaker 8: research to support the idea that this was not what
Speaker 8: Truman Capoti had said, this simple robbery gone awry, but
Speaker 8: something more akin to a coordinated assassination.
Speaker 6: Okay, this now, this is really my hypothesis that there
Speaker 6: are probably one of two reasons Herbert Clutter was targeted
Speaker 6: to die, and that was either his local, his local
Speaker 6: and or national political affiliations where he was already known
Speaker 6: to be going up against the government at least government policy.
Speaker 6: And secondly this relationship he is believed to have had
Speaker 6: with his executor's wife. That these are two these formed
Speaker 6: I think two substantial reasons that someone might want to
Speaker 6: bump them off. Does that Does that answer the question, Dan?
Speaker 8: I think so. But you also include that you look
Speaker 8: at information just previous to Curber Clutters and his family's murder,
Speaker 8: and you talk about life insurance, and you talk about
Speaker 8: his smoking habit from a guy that would have never
Speaker 8: considered smoking. Tell us a little bit more about that
Speaker 8: information and how that sort of supports your theory, Sir.
Speaker 6: Herb Clutter was a strict disciplinarian and as a Methodist,
Speaker 6: he didn't allow anyone who worked for him to smoke
Speaker 6: or drink. And yet in the final weeks of his life,
Speaker 6: he was known to be smoking cigarettes. His daughter Nancy
Speaker 6: would would plan them, and he was his whole attitude
Speaker 6: was anxious as surly in those in his final days
Speaker 6: and on the actual day of his demise, that he
Speaker 6: had purchased a long planned life insurance policy which provided
Speaker 6: which paid out double indemnity if they were murdered, and
Speaker 6: not less than ten hours after he signed the document,
Speaker 6: they were murdered.
Speaker 8: Now with the Truman Capodi version and then the KBI
Speaker 8: trying to not trying to try it well, attempting to
Speaker 8: stop the publication of this book or this information coming out. Again,
Speaker 8: you have a theory that there's a reason for that,
Speaker 8: and you talk about the official in cold Blood. There's
Speaker 8: at the headquarters in Topeka, the KBI headquarters, there's a
Speaker 8: big display with all of the paraphernalia, the ropes, guns, boots,
Speaker 8: all the things were discovered. And then prominently there's a
Speaker 8: copy of In Cold Blood. So tell us what your
Speaker 8: theory is in terms of again that, why why you
Speaker 8: think that the KBI wants to preserve the story that
Speaker 8: is contained in Cold Blood?
Speaker 6: The Clutter case, was there the standard of excellence for
Speaker 6: the KBI. They they hang their hat on it as
Speaker 6: there as the case that makes the KBI, And in
Speaker 6: the KBI headquarters in Topeka, Kansas, there's a display, a
Speaker 6: glass enclosed display that features the actual murder weapons, the
Speaker 6: hunting knife, the Savage twelve cage pump action shotgun, various
Speaker 6: photos of the Clutter farm, and prominently above the Savage shotgun,
Speaker 6: a copy of In Cold Blood. So there, the state's
Speaker 6: coming after us as hard as it did on the
Speaker 6: basis of protecting the survivor families. Privacy just seems disingenuous
Speaker 6: when they're the ones promoting one false story of the
Speaker 6: investigation for so long as they have over fifty years now,
Speaker 6: and putting on display the actual murders of execution, the
Speaker 6: weapons of execution.
Speaker 8: Right your fight for the truth here. It didn't end
Speaker 8: with the court case. Let's talk about the resolution of
Speaker 8: the court case. Obviously this book is out, but tell
Speaker 8: us how that came to be. What was the validation
Speaker 8: in court? What was your vindication? I should say, tell
Speaker 8: us about that about the court decision.
Speaker 6: What they said, Well, our litigation had two prongs to us.
Speaker 6: The first was were we able to publish the materials?
Speaker 6: And the second ones who owns the materials. The court
Speaker 6: ruled in November of twenty fourteen that the court's prior
Speaker 6: restraint was incorrect, that it should not have that the
Speaker 6: court should not have allowed the lawsuit to occur in
Speaker 6: the first place. Now, as many people know, in Florida,
Speaker 6: while Perry Smith and Dick Kincock were on the lamb,
Speaker 6: they were worn through Florida, and during the time they
Speaker 6: were there, in about Tallahassee, there was a family called
Speaker 6: the Walkers who were murdered in a very similar style
Speaker 6: to the Clutters. And to this day, Florida authorities still
Speaker 6: believe that that's the case is connected. In the Tikock
Speaker 6: and Smith are the prime subject, the prime suspects. What
Speaker 6: happened in our case is that Florida, during the time
Speaker 6: we were being sued, Florida asked Kansas to exhume the
Speaker 6: bodies of Hickock and Smith for DNA testing. So the
Speaker 6: state of Kansas refused to offer to honor our discovery
Speaker 6: requests and put off anything to dealing with our case
Speaker 6: for a year while they quote unquote reopened the case
Speaker 6: due to the exhumation process. Well, our court and its
Speaker 6: final ruling said that the state's position of Florida investigation
Speaker 6: somehow reopens the file was on persuasive that at best,
Speaker 6: information provided to Florida authorities cannot reopen a case when
Speaker 6: the killers have been captured, tried, convicted, and executed. So
Speaker 6: by affirming our first, first amountent rights to publish, the
Speaker 6: court handed us a major victory in the main battle.
Speaker 6: And that just left the second prong, which was Dewey
Speaker 6: who owns the material. The state claimed that because Herbert
Speaker 6: Clutter was a state employee, that his notebooks were state property.
Speaker 6: As we were going through that second prong of the
Speaker 6: case of the litigation, that's when the state dropped its
Speaker 6: lawsuit because they knew that we would be able to
Speaker 6: ask for anything at that point. Right right.
Speaker 8: In the Pursuit of Truth February twenty fifteen, you write
Speaker 8: that you tried to obtain the original nineteen sixty transcript
Speaker 8: and you went to Finney County. Tell us what their
Speaker 8: response was in a little bit about this search for
Speaker 8: this transcript.
Speaker 6: Well, as your listeners might imagine, public documents are just
Speaker 6: that public. You can go into any any courthouse in
Speaker 6: the land and asked for the transcript of most any
Speaker 6: trial unless it's been put under seal save grand jury
Speaker 6: in the Clutter case. It's Kansas's most prominent case. And
Speaker 6: yet when we tried this over months and then years,
Speaker 6: tried to get the original transcript of the Hiccock Smith
Speaker 6: murder trial from March nineteen sixty and it was simply unavailable.
Speaker 6: They said, if you want it, you have to call
Speaker 6: the main judge, the chief judge himself, and I couldn't
Speaker 6: get through to the judge personally, which I thought was
Speaker 6: an odd I mean, why call the chief judges? This
Speaker 6: is to be something in the clear candles. So I
Speaker 6: put it a backburner until sometime later. We tried again.
Speaker 6: Some months later, they said, we don't have a transcript
Speaker 6: in our archives, but you have to call this law
Speaker 6: firm in Garden City and del De'll help you. The
Speaker 6: law firm said that one of their stenographers was a
Speaker 6: collector of such things and she's now retired in Arizona,
Speaker 6: and we could get hurt. They gave us her how
Speaker 6: to contact her, and we couldn't reach her for months.
Speaker 6: It was just a Keystone Cops comedy trying to track
Speaker 6: that down. We never did. We never did get it,
Speaker 6: though we ultimately reached one of her relatives, Peruson's relatives,
Speaker 6: who says, sure, you can buy a coffee from us
Speaker 6: for six hundred dollars. So it had become a commercial
Speaker 6: commodity at that.
Speaker 8: Point, and you didn't want to purchase it.
Speaker 6: I didn't need to. My research was done by that point.
Speaker 6: I'd worked around it. There were many in the appellate
Speaker 6: courts and cases. There were very clean summaries of the
Speaker 6: original trial. All the pelic courses do have those summaries,
Speaker 6: so I was able to reconstruct the original trial through those.
Speaker 6: I just found it odd that we couldn't get that
Speaker 6: original transcript.
Speaker 8: You talk about too that how fascinating it was to
Speaker 8: be able to be able to read Dick Hickcock's letters
Speaker 8: to Macnations and the kind of information and just the
Speaker 8: kind of ah, I have to believe it for the
Speaker 8: reader to read some of the quotes from what Dick
Speaker 8: Kickock said about the murders and life in general. Could
Speaker 8: you share just a little bit of that.
Speaker 6: Well, Hickcock was had what's called an idetic memory, which
Speaker 6: is as close to photographic memories what you can get.
Speaker 6: He remembered specific details everything he said in interrogation was
Speaker 6: had I had blown blown away the minds of the
Speaker 6: investigators and Truman Capodi in Harper League or they when
Speaker 6: they were speaking with them. But the letters he had
Speaker 6: written were extremely effusive in their descriptions of the crime,
Speaker 6: the Clutter's murders, of their trips across the country, of
Speaker 6: their sojourns down through Mexico. And I mean the two
Speaker 6: hundred some pages, all in beautiful hand handwriting, true Palmer
Speaker 6: method cursive.
Speaker 8: Yeah, but in that as well, it's supportive and corroborative
Speaker 8: evidence to your theory that this was not what Truman
Speaker 8: Capodi and the KBI and and those movies portrayed, was it.
Speaker 6: Well, let me read. Let me in fact, if I
Speaker 6: might let me read one portion of what the hiccock
Speaker 6: had written here, that might help. I gently pushed the
Speaker 6: door open and entered the house. It was dark. The
Speaker 6: only light visible was coming in around the blinds at
Speaker 6: the windows. I turned the light on in the kitchen,
Speaker 6: and the sudden beam of light was frightening. I shut
Speaker 6: it off. It was really dark. Then we moved forward
Speaker 6: as quickly as possible. But no matter how hard I tried,
Speaker 6: I couldn't stop the floor from squeaking. They hear it,
Speaker 6: I thought, I know they do. I've got to hurry.
Speaker 6: I don't know why. It is hard to explain, but
Speaker 6: I felt a measure of mixed emotions. I felt excitement,
Speaker 6: a thrill. I was going to kill a person, maybe
Speaker 6: more than one. Could I do it? Maybe I'll back out.
Speaker 6: What if they're not home? I hope they're not. But
Speaker 6: I can't take I can't back out. I've taken the money,
Speaker 6: I've spent some of it. Times I thought I know
Speaker 6: too much. What would my partner think if I backed out?
Speaker 6: I mean, who's going to write that when they're already
Speaker 6: on death row? He has nothing to lose at this
Speaker 6: point and no reason, nothing to gain by making up lies.
Speaker 8: Yeah, certainly, certainly I was.
Speaker 6: Going to pull a person, so one person was for sure.
Speaker 8: You cite in the book another reporter interview about other
Speaker 8: murders potentially tell us about that as you write.
Speaker 6: Which report interview.
Speaker 8: There was an interview later that you include at the
Speaker 8: end of the book where you talk about that there
Speaker 8: was a couple other murders planned. It was the killers
Speaker 8: had written or said in that interview.
Speaker 6: Right. Uh, this was Capodi's interview with the with Hickcock
Speaker 6: and Smith that they were supposedly plan had two other
Speaker 6: murderers planned, one with the banker in a small town
Speaker 6: and the other I can'tra call at the moment. But
Speaker 6: the banker I always wonder if that one they were
Speaker 6: talking about was Quinby Kenneth Lyon, because he was a
Speaker 6: banker in the Farewell somewhat small town at the time.
Speaker 8: Yes, and then again for those.
Speaker 6: If that was, it would nicely tie things together.
Speaker 8: Yes, with the affair with his wife, Yes, sir, right
Speaker 8: now with us as well. You talk about the KBI
Speaker 8: wanting to keep this official version of this again, why
Speaker 8: do you think it's so important to them to be
Speaker 8: able to maintain this story.
Speaker 6: Well, it's the it would it would dim the shine
Speaker 6: on their star, that imagine. Going on sixty years now,
Speaker 6: this has been the shining example of the KBIS uh
Speaker 6: dramatic crime solving abilities and it really was great detective
Speaker 6: work at the time. I don't I don't take that
Speaker 6: away from them at all, thanks to the large part
Speaker 6: due to Harold n Who's who just a few short
Speaker 6: months afterwards, was promoted to assistant director of the KBIS.
Speaker 6: As a consequence of this work, with the Clutter case.
Speaker 6: But I I find it hard to believe that people
Speaker 6: alive to this day are still carrying some kind of
Speaker 6: called the conspiracy theory that would want us not to
Speaker 6: publish anything from that era. I have no idea why
Speaker 6: they fought so hard as they did, since completely mystifying
Speaker 6: to me.
Speaker 8: M hm. It's this book has been dedicated to Harold Nye,
Speaker 8: and we didn't go into just his character and really
Speaker 8: his character in this investigation when you talked about he
Speaker 8: was appointed director shortly after his ad adherents in law,
Speaker 8: though you write that didn't make them any friends, so
Speaker 8: he was out of there pretty quickly. But his work
Speaker 8: as the as the investigator in this and as there's
Speaker 8: so much stuff that we didn't go into in this book,
Speaker 8: like one of the investigators working with Nye just handed
Speaker 8: his stuff Alan Dewey, who Alan Dewey then handled handed
Speaker 8: it to Truman Capodi.
Speaker 6: Right, we'll talk about.
Speaker 8: But we also didn't mention Wells's Floyd Wells's sentence was
Speaker 8: he was looking at five to ten and he was
Speaker 8: soon after released and so there was a whole again,
Speaker 8: as this detailed book you talk about the fate of
Speaker 8: Floyd Wells after all of this as well.
Speaker 6: The governor at the time, William Avery, would not at
Speaker 6: this point it was a Docking governor. Docking would not
Speaker 6: commute Floyd Wells's sentence. But we believe that there had
Speaker 6: to be some kind of pro bono or rather quid
Speaker 6: pro quo accusing my Land, some quid pro quo for
Speaker 6: the testimony that Floyd Wells had provided on behalf of
Speaker 6: the KBI. He had a five to ten year sentence
Speaker 6: of which he had served only a year or so,
Speaker 6: and at the earliest you would he wouldn't have gotten
Speaker 6: out for at least three years served. But the way,
Speaker 6: the way around that they found was to move him
Speaker 6: from Kansas State Penitentiary to the Kansas State Industrial Reformatory,
Speaker 6: whose parole terms were much more of the Indians when
Speaker 6: you can be out in ten months including a time served,
Speaker 6: which Floyd Wells has already done in PSP. So that
Speaker 6: was a sweetheart deal he got, in addition to a
Speaker 6: thousand dollars reward from the Hutchinson News for breaking the case.
Speaker 6: As you say, there's so much, not just in this book,
Speaker 6: but there's just so much to this, this whole investigation
Speaker 6: and to my research that it's by the mind blowing
Speaker 6: how many facets there are, how many avenues you can
Speaker 6: go down and keep walking for a long time.
Speaker 8: What I found fascinating and absolutely the most vivid, I think,
Speaker 8: and crucial scene in the book is that the idea
Speaker 8: that the mother was, you know, Ronald's mother was after
Speaker 8: her husband died, she knew all this stuff was in
Speaker 8: the attic, and she said, all his stuff was there,
Speaker 8: fifty years of stuff, and she wanted it out of
Speaker 8: there because she was a little apprehensive, it seemed, so
Speaker 8: she wanted that stuff out of there, and just fortuitously
Speaker 8: there was that box, and Ronald came over and there
Speaker 8: it was, and he rescued it. And then all of
Speaker 8: these things that have happened. But the reason Harold kept
Speaker 8: all those details, details and documents that an investigator should
Speaker 8: have kept, and then he kept it all those years
Speaker 8: in case anything ever happened. He hung on to this case.
Speaker 8: It really bothered him. He never believed that this was
Speaker 8: the scenario that today they were murdered the way Truman
Speaker 8: Capoti depicted, and that's why he was very angry, and
Speaker 8: he kept all those notes, and then Ronald needed to
Speaker 8: sell them so again fate intervened, I think, and got
Speaker 8: the hard working, dedicated cop that Harold R. Nigh was
Speaker 8: to be able to have this fine work to disputes
Speaker 8: the official again, the official story that maybe shouldn't be official.
Speaker 8: It is very interesting how fate intervened every step of
Speaker 8: the way, and today we have this book and every
Speaker 8: word is true. Very interesting.
Speaker 6: I think it is if it is Harold wanted to
Speaker 6: write his own book, Dan for some years, and he
Speaker 6: wanted wanted Ron to help him, but he just couldn't
Speaker 6: run gets.
Speaker 8: Pretty yes, well yeah, well I think it's been achieved.
Speaker 8: I think, you know, like I say, it's a circuitous route.
Speaker 8: But here we are and this incredible book and every
Speaker 8: word is true. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 8: for coming on and talking about and every word is true.
Speaker 8: Newfound evidence reveals Truman Capote's In Cold Blood is not
Speaker 8: the end of the story. Gary, For those of people
Speaker 8: might want to find out a little bit more about this,
Speaker 8: Do you have a Facebook page website? Tell us if
Speaker 8: how they might think you look more information?
Speaker 6: Thanks Dan, Yes, it's my website is Gary McAvoy dot com. Uh,
Speaker 6: and I'm on Facebook called In Cold Truth. Ah.
Speaker 8: Great, name again. Thank you very much, brilliant book and
Speaker 8: every word is true. I want to thank you very much.
Speaker 8: You have a great evening. Thank you Gary McAvoy.
Speaker 6: Good night, Thank you Dan. Pleasure to be here. Good night,
Speaker 6: good night.
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