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ZipRecruiter 62 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:00.680 the smartest way to hire Truman. Compodent's best selling book 63 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:05.319 in Cold Blood has captivated worldwide audiences for over fifty years. 64 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:08.560 It is a gripping story about the consequences of a 65 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:12.560 trivial robbery gone terribly wrong in a remote village of 66 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:17.199 western Kansas. But what if robbery was not the motive 67 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:21.360 at all, but something more sinister? And why would the 68 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:24.920 Kansas Bureau of Investigation press the Attorney General to launch 69 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:28.279 a ruthless four year legal battle to prevent fresh details 70 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.000 of the state's most famous crime from being made public 71 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.800 so many years after the case had been solved. Based 72 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:39.800 on stunning new details discovered in the personal journals and 73 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:44.720 archives of former KBI director Harold Nye and corroborated by 74 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:47.839 letters written by Richard Hiccock, one of the killers on 75 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:52.279 death Row, and Every Word Is True meticulously lays out 76 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:56.240 a vivid and startling new view of the investigation, one 77 00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:58.399 that will keep readers on the edge of their seats 78 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:02.399 as they pick up work body left off. Even readers 79 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:04.639 new to the story will find themselves drawn into a 80 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:09.279 spellbinding forensic investigation that reads like a thriller, adding new 81 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:13.120 perspectives to the classic tale of an iconic American crime 82 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:17.519 sixty years after news of the nineteen fifty nine Clutter 83 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.879 murders took the world stage. And Every Word Is True 84 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:25.079 pulls back the curtain for a suspenseful encore to the 85 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:28.959 true story of In Cold Blood. Book that here featuring 86 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:33.560 this evening is and every Word Is True. Newfound evidence 87 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:36.879 reveals Truman Capote's In Cold Blood is not the end 88 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.839 of the story. With my special guest author Gary McAvoy. 89 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.240 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 90 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:44.360 agreeing to this interview. 91 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:49.480 Gary McAvoy, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me a pleasure 92 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:49.879 to be here. 93 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:53.879 Thank you very much. The pleasure will be allmine and 94 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:55.399 our audiences. 95 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:56.279 This is an. 96 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:01.879 Incredible case and a credible and investigation that you've undertaken 97 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.319 with this and every word is true now as you 98 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:07.240 writ in this book, this book is a result of 99 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:11.680 over six years of research which included I'm going to 100 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:15.439 ask you what that research included specifically, but this was 101 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.519 dedicated to the career and memory of Harold R. Nie 102 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:27.000 Kansas Bureau of Investigation. Now, Truman Capoti claimed that In 103 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:31.519 Cold Blood is a completely factual account and every word 104 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:36.199 is true, and your book includes a Ford by Ronald R. Nie. 105 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:41.560 Now tell us about you say this book was based 106 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:44.600 on stunning new details discovered in the personal journals and 107 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:48.920 archives of former KBI Director at Harold Nie. Tell us 108 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:52.639 a little bit about this forward by Ronald R. Nie, 109 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:57.279 about his father and about these personal journals he discovered. 110 00:06:57.319 --> 00:06:58.040 Tell us about that. 111 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:05.920 First sure Dan Well Harold and I was a career 112 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:09.600 law enforcement officer from his early twenties. In fact, he 113 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:14.199 joined the KBI when he was around twenty three, and 114 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:21.000 his entire life, through all his law enforcement positions, he 115 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:28.480 had maintained reporter's notebooks, those thin notebooks that slipped easily 116 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:33.399 into your pocket. And he'd had some hundreds of these 117 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:38.279 that he'd collected over his career, and he kept them 118 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:41.759 in banker's boxes up in the attic of his home. 119 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:46.319 And ron who grew up under his roof, of course, 120 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.839 always knew they were there, but was told never to 121 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.319 open the boxes, never to look inside them. Well, when 122 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:57.240 his dad passed in two thousand and three, his mother 123 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.920 decided to clean up all the stuff that her husband 124 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:05.879 had been collecting, and he was a major collector, and 125 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.720 had the boxes shredded. Fourteen of the boxes anyway, but 126 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:16.079 there was one box left in Harold's office that she missed. 127 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:20.560 That box ended up in the trash some days later, 128 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.000 and when Ron came by to help his mother clean 129 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:27.199 out the house, he looked in the trash and saw 130 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:34.919 that saw two books that Truman Capodi had given Harold 131 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.919 and I some years ago, both of them signed first editions. 132 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.960 One was in Cold Blood, the other was selected writings 133 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:49.200 by Capodi, and another folder containing various documents, official case 134 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:53.559 reports and Harold's two of Harold's notebooks that he had 135 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:56.559 compiled on the Clutter murder case. 136 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:07.679 Right now, with this, with this discovery, he has these boxes. Ronald, 137 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:12.840 being Harold's son, tell us a little bit about more 138 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:16.000 about Harold and especially for our audience that doesn't know 139 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:21.600 the role that we just spoke about briefly in the introduction, 140 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:25.960 But who was Harold ny to this Clutter investigation, to 141 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.799 the nineteen fifty nine November murders. Who was Harold ny 142 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:33.120 to that? Before we talk about what Ron learned from 143 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:36.919 looking through those journals and through that information, what did 144 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:38.960 he know at that time? And then tell us the 145 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:44.440 circumstances that you were to be introduced to Ronald. 146 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:50.919 Sure, yeah, Harold was one of four principal investigators, along 147 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:56.279 with Alvin Dewey Clarence dun Sinroy Church, who handled the 148 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.799 Clutter murder case. There were about eighteen investigators overall, and 149 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:07.559 Harold was the lead field investigator, while Alvin Dewey was 150 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.039 the case coordinator with an office at the Sheriff's office 151 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:17.600 in Garden City where the crime took plaks and Harold 152 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:22.919 did all the interviews, the majority of interviews with townspeople, 153 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.600 the families of each of the killers once they were identified, 154 00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:32.159 and traveled down to Mexico and across the country wherever 155 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:39.360 he needed to be taken for these interviews. And what 156 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.519 was the second part of your question, Well, what was. 157 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:47.320 As Ronald would discover? I mean, he knew he was 158 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.600 his father was a dedicated cop and real hard nosed 159 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:55.039 and there was this room where these journals were. But 160 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:58.759 what did he find out about by cursory look at 161 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:01.399 those journals? Information did he find out? 162 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:06.000 Well, actually, ron didn't actually look at the journals. He 163 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.279 just knew that there was some value to them. And 164 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:15.279 he was actually in a position with his ex wife 165 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:20.000 who needed medical attention, and there are medical expenses that 166 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:25.600 ron opted to take care of were mounting and he 167 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.279 needed to find some way of income. And he knew 168 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:33.000 that these books and letters by Truman Capoti had likely 169 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.120 had some value to them, and so he turned to me, 170 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:39.840 being referred to me by Christie's auction House in New York. 171 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:43.600 I had been a dealer of literary manuscripts and first 172 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:47.879 edition books for some twenty five years now, and Ron 173 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:53.000 approached me in twenty twelve believing that these letters and 174 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:59.840 had some value to them, and so we decided amount 175 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:04.320 special auction for the materials, which included both the two books, 176 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:08.080 two great letters that Truman had written Harold n. I, 177 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:14.039 and then a passel of other documents that Harold had 178 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:19.360 collected in his casework. When the Kansas Bureau of Investigation 179 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:23.159 or the KBI heard about pending sale, they issued a 180 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:27.600 cease and desist, which soon turned into a lawsuit and 181 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:32.200 that prevented the sale and publication of the materials. Ultimately, 182 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.960 after a grueling four years in court, we ultimately won 183 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:39.320 and asked how the book came to be. But in 184 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:47.399 reading these materials, since I had to compile a through 185 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:51.480 the discovery process in court, I had to compile everything 186 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:57.480 that was in the nine archives, and as I began 187 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:01.600 reading these materials, I realized that this was a much 188 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:05.840 different story I was reading from the primary source documents 189 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.759 than the story that the Truman the PODi had told 190 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:09.799 an in Cold Blood. 191 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.799 You write in a book that at that time, in 192 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.120 your role in your occupation, that you weren't a true 193 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.039 crime fan at all, and that if the Kansas Bureau 194 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:30.360 of Investigation hadn't launched this lawsuit preventing this auction, then 195 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.799 you wouldn't have looked at these materials very carefully at all, 196 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.080 because there would have been no reasons for the auction. Now, 197 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:38.799 what was the reason? What was the reason you talk 198 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.480 about in the book in more detail and very very 199 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.960 interesting and vivid that Ron gets a call first from 200 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:48.759 the Kansas Bureau of Investigation and then you get a 201 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:51.440 call from the same person. What is the premise, what's 202 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:56.200 the reason why they want this information and their reasoning 203 00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:58.960 for this information to not be auctioned? 204 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:04.039 That was never really clear to either of us. Their 205 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:12.600 claim was that these were confidential investigation documents that held 206 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:16.720 confidential material which was never disclosed, which never described rather 207 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:23.360 and that there were privacy issues involved. But the actual 208 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:29.879 reason why they were so obsessed about securing these was 209 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:31.559 never made clear to either of us. 210 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:38.080 Now with this you say, this is a legal battle, 211 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.759 but in this ensuing time you take a look at 212 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.919 this material very carefully, and hence, as you mentioned, this 213 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.320 is the genesis of this book. But it doesn't come 214 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:52.039 right away. Tell us about this whole discovery. You said 215 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.519 you went back and it had been since nineteen sixty 216 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:57.039 six since you had read Truman Capodi's In Cold Blood, 217 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:00.159 so you started there. What are the other things that 218 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:05.639 you looked at, read and basically part of an investigation 219 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:08.120 of sorts. What did you do in this research? 220 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:12.120 Oh gosh, yeah, Well, first I re read Capote's book 221 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:15.799 In Cold Blood so that the material was fresh to me. 222 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:20.600 Then I watched the nineteen sixty seventh film of the 223 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:25.000 same name. There was also Canadian production. I basically absorbed 224 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:30.320 everything I could about the case, and that included Gerald 225 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:36.679 Clark's fine biography called Capodi, George Plimpton's book on Capote's 226 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:42.919 friends and Acquaintances and Detractors, several other books of scholarship 227 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:48.360 about Capodi and In Cold Blood in particular, and basically 228 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:53.759 became more or less early an expert on the Clutter 229 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:57.120 murder case. And then I dug into the material itself, 230 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.679 and that's where I started making rational compare risons as 231 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:04.360 to what I was reading versus what I had read 232 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:12.559 with these other materials, and distinctive differences came out that 233 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.399 made it clear to me that that could be the 234 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:20.639 reason why Kansas wanted this material so desperately. 235 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:29.679 You knew something was we'll say a foul here, but 236 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:35.240 I wanted to know just me personally reading this at 237 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.840 that time when you looked at this, were you aware 238 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:43.799 of the existing criticism of Capodi and the book in 239 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:44.679 true crib And. 240 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:52.200 Oh sure, yeah. For years many people had poked holes 241 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.799 in cold blood, And in fact, the first one to 242 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:01.000 do it was doctor Philip Tompkins from the University of 243 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:05.519 Colorado back in nineteen sixty six, just a month a 244 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.920 couple months after the book came out, and he actually 245 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:12.039 made a nine day trip to Kansas to verify many 246 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.720 of the points that Capodi had made and discovered that 247 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:21.759 some of the salient points were, let's say, less than accurate. 248 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:31.240 But there's a long history of many people identifying issues 249 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:36.359 with Capodi's veracity, so it's not really a lot. 250 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:37.000 Of news. 251 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:47.680 When you start looking at this material again. The journals themselves, 252 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:53.119 the notebooks themselves, you write were especially important or interesting. 253 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:57.359 Tell us about some of the very first discoveries that 254 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:00.920 you made that you thought when you got the information 255 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:04.039 and all those sources that you had looked at. What 256 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:09.480 was the first interesting, we'll say, blatant contradiction from in 257 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:10.160 Cold Blood. 258 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:14.960 Well, there's one scene in Cold Blood, and the readers 259 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.319 of the book and viewers of the film in particular 260 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.079 will remember this where Harold and I is alone at 261 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:26.000 the Hickcock farm interviewing Hitcock's father, Walter, and he spots 262 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:29.160 the murder weapons, a shotgun and a knife, a savage 263 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.680 twelve gage shotgun and a hunting knife, and while his 264 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.440 hand is shaking, this is how the scene is described. 265 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:42.400 He does nothing at the time Capodi reports this is 266 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:47.000 happening five days before it actually happened. And then I 267 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:49.680 was and at that point I was accompanied by several 268 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.440 other agents with a formal search warrant. It's a pretty 269 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.519 important detail to have gotten wrong, but it surely made 270 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:58.720 for a dramatic scene in the book and the movie. 271 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:08.000 In this research you also Ronald talks about the relationship 272 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:12.240 his father had with Capodi and a couple of the 273 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:17.880 events that he had witnessed himself. Tell us about Harold 274 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.640 NY's relationship with Capodi, Well, it was during a. 275 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:30.119 Time where homosexuality was not as accepted as it was today, 276 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:37.400 and Capodi made no attempts to tone his effeminacy down, 277 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:42.000 not that he was expected to, but he was entering 278 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:46.960 the heartland, midwestern town that had never seen anyone so 279 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:53.119 splashy as he was. And Harold and I in particular 280 00:19:53.400 --> 00:20:00.079 was not a fan of Capodi's theatrics. Let's say so, 281 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.319 I think that that was he'd already prejudged him at 282 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.880 that point. But uh, capodis his job was also to 283 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.200 get as much information as he could about an ongoing investigation, 284 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:14.400 and Harold and I held firm of the policies and 285 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.960 protocols of investigative work and would not give them anything. 286 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.759 That's not the case without the Dewey. But that's that's 287 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.160 for another that's for another time. 288 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:35.680 You you will underestimate, I'm sorry, go ahead, you really 289 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:37.519 What we've skipped over a little bit, though, is that 290 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.400 the incredible efforts that you you Again, this is very 291 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:45.559 vivid where you say Harold was suspicious and definitely. 292 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:47.039 Not. 293 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.559 He didn't like his theatrics and the and the flamboyants, 294 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:52.880 but and he also didn't like that he was always 295 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.119 being pressed for details on the investigation. He knew that's 296 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.480 what was going on. But he took them out tonight clubs, 297 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:02.759 and he offered to take him to his famous black 298 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.559 or be invited to his famous black white masked ball. 299 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.359 That was rud elbows with celebrities. And I think when 300 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:15.960 you mentioned Alan Dewey, maybe we should talk about Alan 301 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:22.119 Dewey because the difference in the In Cold Blood is 302 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:27.359 Dewey's role in the book and Harold Nye's role in 303 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:30.200 the book. And as you're right where Ronald is witnessed 304 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:34.759 to say that when Harold received a copy of In 305 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:36.559 Cold Blood, what was his reaction? 306 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:42.000 He threw it across the room. He claims he read 307 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.920 just I guess about a third of it, threw it 308 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.960 across the room, calling it a fiction. He also when 309 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:51.920 he went he and his wife Joyce went to the 310 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:55.640 film see the film as on our guests, he walked 311 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.799 out after fifteen minutes saying it. We don't know what 312 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:02.000 he said, but he was not happy with the treatment 313 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:02.720 of the clutters. 314 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:11.359 What was the relationship with the Clutters and Harold and I. 315 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:19.759 They didn't know each other. The Clutters were members of 316 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:23.599 or rather they lived in Garden City and Harold and 317 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:27.240 his family lived in Topeka where the KBI headquarters was, 318 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.279 so they did not know each other. Dewey was very 319 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:36.519 close to the Clutters, Alvin Dewey, he was They were 320 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:42.519 both part of the same Methodist church group and both 321 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.759 Sunday School so they were very close. 322 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.920 Which leads me to my next question. Let's talk about 323 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:55.000 Herb Clutter because in this book and in this investigation, 324 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:58.559 in an your research, you find out that Herb Clutter, 325 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:03.200 I mean very simple story that Truman Capodi tries to 326 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.279 does portray in Cole Blood, that this innocent family is 327 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:10.279 killed for less than fifty dollars. It's a senseless couple 328 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:16.400 of psycho paths and case closed. Tell us about Herbert 329 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:22.039 Clutter and his importance in the community, and also some 330 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.319 of the things that you found out about Herbert Clutter. 331 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.400 Well up until his death in nineteen fifty nine. Herb 332 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.720 Clutter was a very prominent farmer in western Kansas, indeed 333 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.839 a pillar of this community. He was very successful at 334 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.359 a time when many others were losing their farms to 335 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:47.359 a variety of economic factors. Clutter was also politically powerful, 336 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:53.440 having been appointed by President Dwight Eisenhower to the Federal 337 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:58.119 Farm Credit Board. He was also founder of the National 338 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:02.240 and the Kansas Association of Wheat Growers and various local 339 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:05.359 organizations in the local farming co op in Garden City, 340 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:09.240 as well as a prominent leader in his Methodist church group. 341 00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:13.160 And a little bit more about the family. Clutter and 342 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:16.759 his wife, Bonnie had four children, two of whom still 343 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:21.000 lived at home, both in their mid teens. Missus Clutter 344 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:25.400 had been suffering from severe postpartum depression for many years 345 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:29.799 following the birth of their last child, Kenyon, and even 346 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.759 up until her death she was virtually bedridden, with their 347 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:38.119 daughter Nancy, and the housekeeper name isssus Helm taking care 348 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:41.200 of most of the household duties while mother was frequently 349 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:43.599 away at a psychiatric clinic in Wichita. 350 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:52.799 So Herbert was an upstanding citizen, but he was very 351 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:57.240 much important, very important, especially in that you write that 352 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:03.359 he was instrumental and importan in writing policy or affecting policy, was. 353 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:04.640 An important in it. 354 00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:08.839 And you also talk about the time and It's always 355 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:11.359 has to be referenced in here that we just come 356 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.680 out of McCarthyism, and so socialism was not seen any 357 00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:19.960 kind of well, social engineering, but any kind of intervention 358 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.440 by government was not seen by everybody as benevolent or 359 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:26.400 not agreed upon by everybody at that time. 360 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:35.839 Right, Yeah, it's he was. Clutter was very policy oriented 361 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:44.000 in setting farming was His approach to farming was to 362 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:48.599 ensure we are parody pricing for weed farmers. And he 363 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.000 had one major opponent in government, and that was the 364 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.839 Secretary of Agriculture at the time, a man named Ezra 365 00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:00.400 Taft Benson. Benson was a virulent anti socialis and he 366 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:05.960 viewed government pricing parody as a form of socialism that 367 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:11.079 would not stand. So he had at least one prominent 368 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:12.240 enemy in government. 369 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:21.200 Were there any instances that from witnesses around that time, 370 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:25.440 an investigation from Harold Nye that would indicate any kind 371 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:29.839 of animosity or enemies in his business dealings in the 372 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:32.839 community of Garden City, Oh sure, Yeah. 373 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:40.200 In Harold NIC's notebooks he records many, I mean at 374 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:46.680 least a dozen episodes of threats against HERB. Clutter for 375 00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:51.680 various infractions in his business dealings in the community, contracts, 376 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:58.599 broken payments not made, promises not kept. So there were 377 00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:03.559 people who had lived really threatened Herb Clutter and let 378 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.240 it be known around town that there were there were threats. 379 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:13.680 So as as as clean and squeaky clean as Campodi 380 00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.400 may have made the Herbert Clutter, he had his dark sides, 381 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:22.559 at least in at least in the business community. 382 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:27.759 You also write to and not to, you know, to 383 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:32.359 again say things that can't be backed up or substantiated. 384 00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:36.000 But you talk about the relationship, the friendship with Dewey 385 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:39.839 and mister Clutter and the Clutters, and then the idea 386 00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:46.200 and the investigation by Herald that because of missus Clutter's illness, 387 00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.400 they hadn't been well, hadn't slept together for many maybe 388 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:53.880 a decade. So in the book there is some speculation 389 00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:58.240 that there could have been a possible affair. Was there 390 00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:01.839 anything to that? And I mentioned Dewey is that would 391 00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:05.720 he wanted would he wanted to protect his friend's reputation 392 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.759 with working with rum Mcampodi. 393 00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:12.960 To your first point, yes, that we do have evidence 394 00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:16.960 in the official reports that mister Clutter was very likely 395 00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:18.960 having an affair with the wife. 396 00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:19.000 Of his. 397 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.160 Is the executor to the Clutter estate, a man named 398 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:31.599 Kenneth Lyon, and his Kenneth Lyon was also the former 399 00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:39.359 business partner of her Clutter. And it was because of 400 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:44.480 Missus Clutter's condition lasting so long many in the town, 401 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:48.440