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Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with the ideology behind it.

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It has nothing to do with the idea that, oh,

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these religious people, they made this happen and it's because

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of religion. Well, if you think that, then you'll be

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ignorant to the way in which your own ways of

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thinking and your own excesses could bring about the exact

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same thing. And sometimes especially now, sometimes worse in both

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ways because of technology. Because of the power of technology,

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now we have access to way more excesses on each side.

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This is Jonathan Peshel, Welcome to the symbolic world. One

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of the accusations that you heard from the new atheist

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in the past few decades is, of course how horrible

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religion is and how religion has done these things like

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the Inquisition, like the witch hunts, the witch burnings, the

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oppression of difference, the oppression of minorities, the oppression of

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other religions, all of these types of accusations that you

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hear that religion is part of it. But what if

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I told you, or what if we consider that in fact,

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all of these behaviors are actually just aspects of human behavior.

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They are aspects of the human microcosm of how humans

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interact with each other, and that they can be found

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everywhere and anywhere at every single time. And so I

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think that this way of understanding, which is that there

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are certain patterns of being, and those patterns of being

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they play themselves out in people, they play themselves out

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in societies, and they are just reflections, and there are

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reflections of usually the symbolic pattern, which is the way

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in which the multiple and the one join together. They

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are reflections of how it is that multiple people can

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participate and become one at a higher level, that is

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a societal level, the same thing in yourself. That is,

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how all these thoughts, how all of these body parts,

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how they can all join together and be one person.

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That most of the things that people criticize religion for

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they are simply aspects of the symbolic pattern applied to

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different spheres. And so sometimes those aspects they go wrong

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or they become excessive, you know, and then they have

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to be balanced out with other aspects. And those can happen,

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by the way, at both sides. You know, we accuse,

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for example, religion of being oppressive and harsh and judging

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and witch burning and you know, inquisition and stuff like that.

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But you have to remember that the Nietzscheans or that

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Nietzsche and Is followers, accuse religion often of being the opposite,

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of being too weak, of being too open, being forgiving,

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of being, you know, of being this kind of weak

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man's vision of reality, of not being active enough and

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not being vital enough, and not defending one ourselves enough.

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And so which one is it? You know, is it

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the one or is it the other? The truth is

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that it's both, and that it's both not just for religion,

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but that it's both for every single different aspect of

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human reality. And so a way to understand it is

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think of it as your body, right, And so your

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body there are parts, they are aspects of your body

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which are there to defend you from the dangerous outside aspects. Right,

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They're there that are there to defend you from germs,

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from bacteria, from things that could harm your body. But

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there are also aspects of your body that are there

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to include things from the outside. And so you're eating

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stuff all the time, so you're taking things from the

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outside and you're bringing it into your body, and then

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that those things are becoming parts of your body, and

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so your body has to find a kind of balance

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between the capacity to engage with the outside in a positive,

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fruitful way, you know, for opportunity to manifest itself. And

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your body also has to have mechanisms which stop the

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bad stuff on the outside from contaminating you and from

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killing you, to be honest, and that very structure is

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one that happens also at a level of a group,

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at a level of society. Now, at the level of society,

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there are aspects of that society. And now the aspects

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will often become embodied. They'll become embodied in personalities that

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will play different roles. Now you those personalities will be

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contained in you. So you will also have aspects of

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your personality that will be exploratory and that we'll be

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looking for new things, that will be trying to figure

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out new opportunities. And you'll have aspects of your personality

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which will be cautious and will be wary of things

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that could hurt you and you know, things that could

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endanger you. And so you'll be scared at night, you'll

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be scared in the dark, You'll be cautious in places

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that you don't know the people. But you'll also have

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aspects of you that will be extroverted when you're meeting

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new people and will go out to them and greet

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them and talk to them and see in them if

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there are some precious things that can make your world

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more than what it was before. Now, different people will

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have different a different balance of these different aspects, and

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a society will have different people that play those same

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roles in the society. Some people that will be more

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cautious of that which can endanger and destroy and contaminate,

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and some people that will be more exploratory and more open,

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more you know, looking out to see how it is

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that we can include things from the outside in order

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to make us stronger and to make us more and

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that will all these levels, these balances will play themselves

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out in a society. That is that sometimes will be

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more manifested of certain aspects. Sometimes it will be less.

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And sometimes that can go too far. In yourself. Sometimes

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you can you can be too cautious, and then that

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will have consequences. Sometimes you can be too open, and

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that will have consequences, and the same thing happens with

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the society. Sometimes societies can be too cautious and then

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that will constrict them and close them off. And sometimes

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the society can be too open, think of open society

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that the George Soros organization, and then you will basically

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start to drown or you'll start to you know, you

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might see to exist in either one of those excesses.

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And that is really the way to kind of understand it.

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And so so for example, like when it's funny because

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you know, in the nineteen sixties, for example, they're there,

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the people in the in that time, they accuse the

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religious people of being pearl clutchers, right, and so this

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idea of trying to protect what's a pearl clutch or

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pearl clutchure is someone who grabs their pearls and is

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afraid of losing them, right, is afraid of losing this

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precious thing and has a kind of gut reaction to

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to protect their their precious thing in order to prevent

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it from being destroyed or being taken or being stolen

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from the outside. And so the let's say the hippie

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secular types accused the religious people of being pearl clutchers.

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That is puritans, moral you know moral puritans, you know,

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people who are just trying to protect their values, protect

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their their moral codes, even if they don't totally understand them.

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And that there's an excess in that because of that,

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they're prude, they are they're kind of you know, they

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have this kind of finger wagging aspect to them, and

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they have, you know, a kind of judgmental attitude towards

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everything that is around them, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

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Now what's funny now is that, of course we see

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that now it's the secular people that are doing that,

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and the same types of behaviors are appearing in the

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secular world. And so you have people that are canceling

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others because of purity motifs, who are trying to protect

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our group from it from a kind of infection of

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ideas that would be uh, you know, that would destroy us.

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And so we have the same type of pro clutching

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motif We have the same kind of puritan behavior. So

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the people that go online and cancel others, the people

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that go online and accuse everybody of you know, you know,

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the excesses for example, of the of cancel culture. These

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are actually the same kind of people that were accused

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of being finger wagging puritans in the religious sphere before.

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They're just modes of being and so they're now the

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same types of people. You know, the vegan that what

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I remember a few years ago, she kind of disappeared.

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I remember the vegan teacher. You know, she was a

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Sunday school teacher. She was the cliche of the church lady.

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And so the vegan teacher and the church lady are

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the same. You know. It's like this that you know,

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this kind of uh this this like being annoyed and

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judgmental and trying to moralize people into certain behaviors. All

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of this is just modes of being. And so you

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can see the same, for example, in the kind of

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openness aspect as well. And so you could say that

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the the you can also accuse, for example, certain aspects

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of our society today of being too open of including

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so many things that you're drowning that you're basically self destroying,

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because if you drink poison, you know, if you take

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too much alcohol, or you take too many drugs, or

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you're not careful of what it is that you put

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into your body, it can lead you to death, you know,

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And so this can manifest itself at different level, you know.

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And so if you think about I don't know, some

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Irish village two one hundred years ago, where everybody was

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too drunk, and that this was seriously causing problems in

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this in the society. You know, now we have people

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on fentanyl, you know, like fentanyl zombies in our cities,

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and you know, an excess of homeless people, and that

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it's it's encroaching on the capacity for the cities to

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hold together. And so the patterns will manifest themselves in

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the same way at different levels. And then some people

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will say, you know, back in the days of that

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little Irish village, I say Irish. It could have been

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any place, but say this little Irish village. Some people

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have said, you know, like their life is hard. You know,

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a hard man's working hard. Just let him be like,

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let him have his little pleasure. You know, there's no

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point in finger wagging them. You know, life is difficult enough.

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Let them live their life. And therefore continues, and then

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you would have in the same town or in the

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same city the finger wagging lady or the finger wagging

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guy who's trying to impose a rule or a moral code,

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and that person is neither good nor bad. Sometimes you need,

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you know, a vegan teacher type in order to bring

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things back to order. Sometimes it's annoying and that person

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goes is excessive and pushes too hard and then tries

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to take all the fun out of reality. And that's

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when you want there to be a kind of dance.

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And that's really the way to understand how it is,

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is that all these different aspects of the world you

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know from the person that the canceler, because sometimes you

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actually do need to cancel people, you know, that's what

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jail is for. That's what when someone breaks the rules

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you have, there has to be consequences, and for all

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intents and purposes, that's a kind of canceling. When you

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put someone in jail, you're canceling them from society for

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a certain amount of time. Now, that is absolutely necessary

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for any society to exist, and you need that in

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yourself too. You need you need the discipline you need

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sometimes to be able to say, you know what you know,

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now's not the time to just hang out and to relax.

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Now's the time to get up and do the dishes,

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to you know, clean the house, or to or to

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get to work, to answer those emails or whatever it is.

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But then you also need someone at some some aspect

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of yourself at some point say all right, now that's enough.

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Now go sit down with your friends, now have a drink.

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Now let's have a nice time to get this play game.

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Let's do that. And so you need that in your

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in your world, and so the the and you see,

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it's like and it's and it's kind of annoying and

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like I've probably played that game before where people say

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Spanish Inquisition, you know, the Spanish Inquisition, this horrible time

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when the society was completely against these these people that

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didn't fit and you know, accused them and murdered them

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and did all these things. And it's like, yeah, you know,

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and then people say, yeah, but it's nothing compared to

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the Gulag. You know, the Gulag was the worst, and

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now it's nothing compared to the to the Nazis, and

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the Nazis that put people in concentration camps. And it's

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like and then other people say, well, it's nothing compared

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to the American prison system, where it's like one percent

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of the population is in prison and etcetera, etcetera. Like

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you know, the truth is that these patterns exist all

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the time everywhere and that and then we have this

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balancing act. And for example, the very fact that in

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certain quarters of society we only see especially now, we

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see that like it can tell help you see where

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we are in the world. We only see the moments

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when there was constrict on the outside, like we only

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see the moment when the society became very strict and

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tried to exclude people from it. We only see that

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as negative, and we for some reason can't remember or

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can't see the moments where the opposite was true, the

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moments where things were let loose way too much, and

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that you know, people stopped having children, people started to

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work only to do only things in order to have

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pleasure or to you know, to kind of and moments

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when society pulled apart, like at the end of the

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Roman Empire, of course, but there are different times that

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that happened as well in our society. Some of those times,

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you know, are very close to the moments where we

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consider things like the Spanish Inquisition. You know, it's like

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the Renaissance courts, for example, or even later. You know,

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some of the Enlightenment courts were very chaotic, you know,

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and we're very open and anything was possible, and they

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let all kinds of behaviors into their courts kind of

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immoral and dangerous behaviors which led to the breakdown of

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the cohesion of the society. So there are many times

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when there have been excesses of one or the other

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on each side. But it's mostly important to be able

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to understand this as a structure. And why is it

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important to understand as a structure, Because we want to

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be able to recognize when it is that certain behaviors,

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the finger wagging lady, or the canceling or the putting

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people in jail is a necessary part of society and

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when that's okay, and also be able to recognize when

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that goes too far, and when it becomes a prison

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prison state, when it becomes a kind of totalitarian type

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of regime. And we also have to be able to

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see that it has nothing to do with the ideology

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behind it. It has nothing to do with the idea that, oh,

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these religious people, they made this happen and it's because

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of religion. Well, if you think that, then you'll be

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ignorant to the way in which your own ways of

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thinking and your own excesses could bring about the exact

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same thing. And sometimes especially now, sometimes worse in both

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ways because of technology. Because of the power of technology,

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now we have access to way more excesses on each side,

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both the kind of dangerous cancel, destroy, destroy people's lives side,

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you know, with the with surveillance, and also I mean

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we haven't seen it in a while, but you know,

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the idea of a of a of an extermination policy

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that would happen today would be very easy to implement

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compared to you know, in the Middle Ages. Uh, with technology,

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and so the same with the kind of openness and

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this capacity to engage in behaviors that tend to that

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tend towards pleasure, that tend towards openness and to exploration

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and all of that. Now there's way more possibility of that.

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And so we have to be attentive and see how

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these are just modes of being in society. And it

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is not very useful to simply point out the ones

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that are in the camp that we don't like to

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simply point out that, you know, the inquisitional types that

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are religious or a religious you know, or the kind

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of decadent type that is either you know, the decadent

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popes of the sixteenth century or whether it is the

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decadent you know ditty party types that exist now that

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they have nothing to do. Like I said, with the

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world in which you're involved, there are just modes of

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being that can become out of control, and so we

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have to be attentive to that in ourselves, in our

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societies and all around us, and hopefully that will also

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first of all make us more perceptive of what's going on,

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and it will also hopefully make us more humble, because

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you've got that inside you as well, and you have

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these different aspects of being inside you, and you have

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to be careful not to let one or the other

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take over, you know. And so it's like there's not

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much difference between a you know, between an inquisition person

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in terms of a society and your OCD you know, obsessions,

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and there's nothing there isn't that much difference between the same,

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like the tendency in the society, the kind of more

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pleasure seeking or exploratory aspect of a society. And you're

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also desired to kind of explore new things, into see

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new things, but then also sometimes to let yourself go

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and not be not be disciplined. So I hope this

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was useful. Thanks again for your help, Thanks for your attention,

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don't forget. You can go to symbolic world dot com

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and you can become a member anytime. We have free

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members that have access to our community there, and also

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there are paid members with different tiers. There's different perks

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for different people to support what it is that we do.

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So thanks everyone for your attention and I'll talk to

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you very soon. Bye bye,