WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:05.759 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Belgium Baby Boston 2 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:06.559 News Radio. 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:10.759 Well, last night we talked about the Conclave, which was 4 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:15.400 still in session, and today the conclave spoke with us 5 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:18.480 from last night, and I really appreciate him coming back 6 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:23.280 tonight just for a brief conversation, Professor Thomas Groom. Professor Groom, 7 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:25.559 I'm sure you did more than a few interviews today. 8 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:28.800 So I don't know what what what the number is 9 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:31.440 so far, but I hope with the last one. 10 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:33.479 I probably got about it. We've probably got about a 11 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:35.240 dozen done Dan. So if I don't make him in 12 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:36.880 a good sense, or if I'm bump up on it 13 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:41.039 somehow put off, but okay, So it was a great day. 14 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:43.479 It was a great day and a very surprising day. 15 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.439 You know, it's it's it wasnton while we were expecting 16 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:48.799 Dan and Wasson, while we were predicting, and yet it 17 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:51.439 seems it's in some ways it seems like a no 18 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:54.280 brainer at this stage. And you know, he made all 19 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:57.759 the right in his opening speech. You know, he did 20 00:00:57.799 --> 00:00:59.679 all the things we would want a new pope to 21 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.000 do out without in parts of dialogue and bridge building. 22 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:05.159 You know that he wants the church to be a 23 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:08.959 synodol church. In other words, as you were cautious to 24 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:12.319 redefine that last night, I mean the church that works together, 25 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:15.439 that works well together. Uh, you know, there'd be a 26 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.280 missionary church going out into the world rather than hiding 27 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.000 hiding behind the wall of the churches. And it was 28 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:24.959 interesting too his language pattern kept referring to women and men. 29 00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:27.040 Now that'd be sound like a very small point, but 30 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:30.879 most people who are committed to the introdusivity to men 31 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:33.840 and women, men and women. But he said women and men, 32 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:37.599 and lots of young by students, for example, would put there. 33 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:40.200 That would be their language pattern, in other words, affirming 34 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.920 that the dignity of women and trying to re establish 35 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.400 it in the pattern of the language. That was interesting. 36 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:48.319 One of the funnest things that I found out about 37 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:52.480 him then is that he's a trombone player, a very 38 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:59.120 accomplished trombone jazz player. Can you believe it? The anchors 39 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:06.040 he anchored festivals. He anchored trombone jazz festivals in Chicago 40 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:08.599 when he lived there in the seventies and eighties, And 41 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:13.719 he used to play under the pseudonym of Bobby Proud, 42 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:17.680 which of course is Robert Prevost, But he was famous 43 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:20.479 in the Chicago music scene as a trombone player, and 44 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.840 in fact, he has brought a trombone with him to 45 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:26.719 the Vatican. Now there's a new moment for the church. 46 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:30.800 I mean, someone said very endearing. 47 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:33.479 Someone said today that he grew up in the South Side, 48 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:36.439 but nonetheless he was a Cubs fan, which I thought 49 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:39.840 was interesting. So here's my question, and I know you'll 50 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:44.840 give me an honest answer. You're a young man, young 51 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.680 in spirit and young in many ways. Did you ever 52 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:50.919 think that in your lifetime you would see an American 53 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:52.960 the pulp of the Roman. 54 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:57.800 Catholic No, no, no, we never thought. Only because you know, America, 55 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:02.120 we can't take over the world, you know, President our 56 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:04.400 president wants to take it over politically. Well, we can't 57 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:09.000 take it over religiously. And and we yeah, well I 58 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:11.280 always thought that. I never thought I would see the day. 59 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:15.319 And in some ways, you know, he's he's not He's American. 60 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:15.520 You know. 61 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:17.759 Barnard raised in Chicago but spent a lot of his 62 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.000 life in Peru and is a Peruvian. Uh is a 63 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:26.240 Pruvian citizen. So it's not quite like somebody just if 64 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:29.199 they had elected you know, the current archbishop or the 65 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:31.960 Krolinis Bishop of Chicago, who would have been a fine candidate, 66 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:34.960 by the way, that would be different. But this is 67 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:38.240 a little this is a little more nuanced than simply saying, well, 68 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.639 he's American, he's American, he's American. Well he is, but 69 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:44.639 he's he's more than an international person at this point. 70 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:46.479 He also started. 71 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:47.840 Out he started out in Chicago the way I started 72 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:50.240 out in Ireland. But yeah, you know, now here fifty 73 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:52.520 years so I think of myself as an American, but. 74 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:58.159 He he also walked this very different path. Normally, the popes, 75 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:01.800 at least that I'm familiar with in my lifetime, whether 76 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:05.400 I think of you know, John Paul two, who was 77 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:09.960 Polish through and through, uh, you know, fought the Nazis, uh, 78 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:15.479 fought the Communists, Uh, the the Archbishop Cardinal of Krakow. Uh. 79 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.639 He you knew where he was from, and obviously he 80 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:23.319 was a giant internationally because of the forces that he 81 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.720 had to do battle with. But the most recent pope, 82 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.480 Pope Francis, we knew where where he had come from. 83 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:35.199 He had dealt as a native, his family had come 84 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:39.279 from Italy, but he was still you know, American. Uh, 85 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:41.560 this is very much of a hybrid. 86 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.519 Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe an Internet maybe an international person, 87 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:51.319 you know, Uh that that's it's kind of a citizen 88 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.000 of the world. And of course his Augustinian Order is 89 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:58.639 worldwide and he was the he was the the Father 90 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:02.560 General of the Sinians for two different stints in office. 91 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.920 I know you were rooting for another Jesuit, but I 92 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.199 wonder if if well. 93 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:10.279 And the other thing I was rooting for, I wish 94 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:12.519 he'd come to VC rather going to Villanova. 95 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:17.399 Then well, I guess that too. I just that too. 96 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:19.560 But then you know, there wasn't Maybe one of the 97 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.560 most symbolic things about it was the name he chose. 98 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:24.000 And I just want to take a minute on this 99 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:28.079 Leo the fourteenth, because Leo the thirteenth was the great 100 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:34.199 social justice bishop or cargo Bishop and pope. Back in 101 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:38.600 eighteen ninety one he issued this amazing in Physical Realum 102 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:42.319 Novarum where he basically called the church to social justice, 103 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:45.399 not just the compassion, but to social justice. That it 104 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:48.480 is not enough to simply feed hungry people. We have 105 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:50.439 to ask, well, why are they hungry in the first place? 106 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:53.560 What are the social political structures that are causing the hunger, 107 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:58.000 the deprivation of the injustice or the sexism, or whatever 108 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:00.480 the injustice might be, that it has to be addressed 109 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.519 structurally and socially as well as one on one. And 110 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:08.600 Leo's the thirteenth grade and cyclical was the reream navarum 111 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.879 that established in many ways, and then the Catholic social 112 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:16.000 teachings flow on from there. But it's interesting that bishop 113 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:20.680 that the current the new pope took the title of Leo, 114 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.000 and he'd be Leo the fourteenth But it was a 115 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.639 real signal that he intends to make social justice and 116 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.120 concern for the world and for the poor and the 117 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.439 downtroden of the margin life, that he wants that to 118 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:33.720 be a central aspect of his pontificate. 119 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:36.480 You know what struck me today, and you're probably going 120 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:38.279 to laugh at me when I tell you this, but 121 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:43.439 when the curtain opened and we knew who it was, 122 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.399 or at least we knew his name when he walked out, 123 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:51.240 he seemed to exude a calmness and a kindness in 124 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:54.439 his just his expression. Now I don't know, you know 125 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:57.360 if I'm imagining that, but I just he seemed to 126 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:00.639 me to be a person at peace with himself and 127 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:01.920 at peace with his destiny. 128 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:05.480 Yeah, I was that's a very fine observation, Dan, I 129 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:09.399 think you're spot on. I think I hadn't thought of 130 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:13.120 it that way. But yes, his whole demeanor and his 131 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:18.199 whole way of handling it was just very reassuring that 132 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:22.000 this is not a pompous type of person at all. 133 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.560 He's somebody called by God now to render an extraordinary 134 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:30.480 service within human history, and he deserves our prayers, and 135 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:33.079 these are our prayers. But I think he will embrace 136 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:38.240 that that that task, that location, and in admirable ways 137 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:41.040 and in ways it will be tremendously life giving, not 138 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:43.360 only for Catholic faith in the Catholic community, but for 139 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:44.279 the life of the world. 140 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:48.279 Last question, Professor, and this probably is the toughest one. 141 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:52.199 The last quarter of a century has been a very 142 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:56.160 difficult time for the Roman Catholic Church in America for 143 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:02.040 the obvious reasons. What will contificate of this now sixty 144 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:06.199 nine year old pope who turned seventy in September. What 145 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:08.360 could this mean and what do you think it will 146 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:12.199 mean for the Catholic Church in America. 147 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:15.319 I'd love to think that it will spark a revival 148 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.920 Catholic faith, and that even Catholics that have given up 149 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:21.920 on the institution on the church. Obviously, lots of my 150 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:24.360 friends and students and so on will tell me that 151 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:26.160 giving up with the church. But I would say that 152 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:28.079 even if you give up with the church, don't give 153 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.240 up on your faith. Hold on to your faith. We 154 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.080 all need a transcendent horizon into which to live our lives. 155 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:38.279 And in Christian faith, we believe that it's a God 156 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:40.440 who is love and who was in love with us, 157 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:43.000 and who graces us all along the way. So it 158 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:45.720 can be a tremendously humanizing way to live one's life. 159 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:48.279 And I hope I can imagine a pope like this 160 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.960 leading us into that kind of realization, enabling people to 161 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:54.720 embrace lives of faith, even if they don't show up 162 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.240 with a local parish with her weekly envelope. 163 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.960 I remember standing on Boston Common, or actually on the 164 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:06.080 on top of the even Marsh Building, broadcasting the Mass 165 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.879 that Pope John Paul the Second said in October of 166 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:14.399 nineteen seventy nine on the Boston Common, and at that 167 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:17.759 time thinking to myself, what would the sisters of charity 168 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.879 think that I could stand here and maybe twenty five 169 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:26.159 or so years previously, I was a less than that. 170 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.759 Twenty years previously, I was at Saintian School in Reidville. 171 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:32.639 They never could have imagined this now, I think those 172 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:38.720 never could have imagined probably the fourteenth. Oh what a day. 173 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:44.159 But the seeds say so, and people like yourself continue 174 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:48.360 to bear fruit. And I mean that's an old gospel image, 175 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:53.279 and even small seeds, according to Jesus, can grow into 176 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:56.120 a big tree. I think that's what you've done well. 177 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:58.840 I mean I am as imperfect a Catholic as you 178 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:01.080 could find, but I keep trying, trying to do better. 179 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:04.519 Let's put it like that, Professor Groom, it's been a 180 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:07.879 long day, a long few days for you. Get some rest. 181 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:09.919 I'm sure you'd be sought after again tomorrow. But thank 182 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:10.480 you for your time. 183 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:16.879 Last night I returned to obscurity. Thank you, Take care, 184 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:17.480 Thank you. 185 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:21.399 So much, Professor Thomas Groom of a Boston College. When 186 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:24.559 we get back, we're going to talk with Professor Mary 187 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:27.159 and Glendon. She wrote a book. She was the US 188 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:33.720 Ambassador to the Vatican under the presidence of three Popes. 189 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.360 Her book is The Quote of Three Popes. She's a 190 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:39.919 Harvard law School professor, and she was US Ambassador of 191 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:42.919 the Vatican. After Ray, Flann, we'll talk with Mary and Glendon, 192 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.600 and if you'd like to join the conversation. I knew 193 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.480 that Professor Groom was somewhat limited in his time tonight 194 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.639 after having been as generous with this time last night, 195 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:55.480 So feel free let's light these phone lines up. What 196 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:59.240 did you think today? I mean, this is a stunning day. 197 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:03.519 There too many popes, too many times, those of us 198 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.399 who are Catholic or not Catholic, it doesn't matter. Watch 199 00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:09.720 this ceremony with the white smoke and all of that. 200 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:12.679 I'd like we're going to talk about this for a while. 201 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.600 I sure hope you're going to participate. Six one, seven, two, five, four, 202 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.679 ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty 203 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.399 those of the phone lines. We'll talk with Professor Mary 204 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:25.519 and Glendon, former US Ambassador to the Holy See to 205 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:28.639 the Vatican. Right after these messages, you're. 206 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.519 On Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w b Z, 207 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:33.159 Boston's news radio. 208 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:37.480 We had joined delighted to be joined by Professor Mary 209 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:41.360 and Glendon of Harvard Law School. She has spent a 210 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:45.039 lot of time in Rome. She was the US ambassador 211 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:49.799 to the Vatican actually served under the under three popes 212 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:56.159 John Paul, the Second, Benedict and Pope Francis. Welcome, Professor Glendon, 213 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:56.840 how are you tonight. 214 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:00.000 I'm great. Thank you for having me on your program. 215 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:02.960 You were very welcome. You've been with us before. The book. 216 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:08.159 It's the court of three popes. You know the inside 217 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:11.639 and the outside workings of the Vatican and the Holy 218 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:13.840 See and all of that, and you know the inside 219 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:16.799 of the outside workings of the Catholic Church of America. 220 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:19.919 I asked Tom Groom the same question. I'm going to 221 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.080 ask you the same question. Did you ever think that 222 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:25.759 in your lifetime you would see an American pope walk 223 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:29.600 out an American car to walk out as an American 224 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:34.840 pope after the white smoke had shown at the Vatican. 225 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:40.480 No, I certainly never did expect to see an American pope. 226 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:45.639 But if you define American the way John Paul taught 227 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.440 us to do. He wanted us to think of America 228 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:53.240 as going from Hudson's May to Tierra del Fuego. And 229 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.759 if you think about it that way, the new Pope 230 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:01.000 is an American in the most capacious sense. He was 231 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.679 born in Chicago, grew up in Chicago, spent much of 232 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:08.320 his life in Peru, where he has dual citizenship with 233 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:13.639 the US and Peru, and had a long stint in 234 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:17.000 Rome where he was head of the Congregation of Bishops, 235 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:21.879 where a lot of these new bishops who became cardinals 236 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:28.080 and elected Pray Boast. He's probably the only guy they 237 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:32.039 knew in the Vatican. So you know, with hindsight, it 238 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:33.279 all sort of fits together. 239 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:40.600 No, in retrospect, I see that, but as prospective I 240 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.000 didn't remember his name being mentioned on any of the shortlists, 241 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:45.960 at least that's the ones I saw. 242 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:54.039 Well, my son in law predicted it. Thomas Williams is 243 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:57.000 the Rome bureau chief, or was the Rome bureau chief 244 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:01.519 for the break Bart news agency, and he said, watch 245 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:03.159 Prevost And I said. 246 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:04.360 Nah, what. 247 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:07.960 But for the reasons I just said, I think he 248 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:12.799 saw that before I did. It's a logical choice. And 249 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:18.559 also it's when you think that the great majority of 250 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:23.559 the cardinal electors are from the global South, and no 251 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.519 doubt are looking for somebody who has a heart for 252 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.600 the poor, the way Francis had a heart for the poor. 253 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:33.919 It makes sense that they would be drawn to somebody 254 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:37.879 who looks very much like a successor to Francis at 255 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.200 this point. He's a member of a religious order, as 256 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:45.159 Francis was, different order. He has a strong connection to 257 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:49.840 Latin America and the name he chose that it was 258 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:54.480 very significant Pope Leo the fourteenth, He certainly had in 259 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:59.919 mind Leo the thirteenth, who was the first to articulate 260 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.279 what we now know is the Catholic social teachings. 261 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:06.879 What sort of an impact, I asked Tom groomed this 262 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.080 last hour, Professor groom from this last same half hour, 263 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.559 actually last twenty five years has been tough for the 264 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:21.279 Catholic Church. Churches have closed, parishes have consolidated, priests have left. 265 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:26.120 More priests have left than have joined. What is it 266 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:31.759 possible that this American pope could revitalize the Catholic Church 267 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:36.720 in America? Obviously his pontificate covers more than the United 268 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:40.080 States of America. We understand that, and there are parts 269 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.840 of the world where Catholicism is burgeoning right now, Africa 270 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:49.120 and Asia. But in America it's not in large part 271 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:52.360 because of everything that the Church has gone through here, 272 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:55.519 and many of it problems brought on themselves, not only 273 00:15:55.559 --> 00:16:00.919 by unfaithful priests, but also religious leaders who failed to 274 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:06.159 take control of the situation. Could this make a huge difference, 275 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.240 that's my sense. I hope you're going to say yes, 276 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:10.559 but I'd be interested. Give me your honest feeling. 277 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.879 Well, we all like to see the church in America revitalized. 278 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:21.360 And I was watching crowds in Chicago. How I mean, 279 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:24.759 my goodness, you would think the White Sox are going 280 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:25.600 the pennant. 281 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.039 Let's not go that far. Now, let's not call that far, professor. 282 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.480 So they're they're like ten and twenty oh, ten and 283 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:36.320 twenty five, go ahead, a moment over kidding. 284 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:42.480 They were so excited, and that was really heartwarming to see. 285 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.720 On your question, It's what makes it hard to answer 286 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:51.799 is that I think for many people it is possible 287 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:56.679 that it will be exciting to have a pope who's 288 00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.559 very much in the vein of Pope Francis, but with 289 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.279 a stroke on connection to the United States. I think 290 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.680 that could have some real results, and I think in 291 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.759 another way, it might revitalize the church in the United States. 292 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:16.960 And thinking about it a little differently, when I grew 293 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:21.319 up in Western mass Dan, the popes were sort of 294 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:25.880 remote features that didn't have creatures who didn't have very 295 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.599 much to do with ordinary life in Berkshire County. And 296 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:34.839 you know, I think over time and over the past 297 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:39.440 few years, I do think American Catholicism you do see 298 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:43.160 a lot of rebirth and excitement in places like these 299 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.960 Catholic schools that are growing up that are so vibrant 300 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:51.680 around Boston. We see Saint Benedict's, for example. And it 301 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:55.720 may be that there will be two kinds of revitalization. 302 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.640 Part the excitement about having a pope born in the 303 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:04.039 United in the States, and the other a sense that, uh, 304 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:07.799 the church, after all is the people of God and 305 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.279 they're right here, and the American Church has great potential 306 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:13.519 to be more vibrant than it is now. 307 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:18.000 Well, it's going to be a very interesting period for 308 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:21.880 the church. I mentioned this to uh Professor Groom as well. 309 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:24.519 I watched him come out on the balcony today to 310 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:34.279 greet the crowd, and he seemed to have a a serenity. 311 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:37.799 Obviously he was not he met the moment, I thought, 312 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.599 and I thought that that as I looked at him, 313 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.799 I felt that that people would will connect with him. 314 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:48.720 I don't know how to bet, how to describe it 315 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:51.920 any other than that. He just seemed to handle it 316 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.039 with with a lot of grace and dignity, and he 317 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.000 he pulled it off. And I watched the response of 318 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.240 people and young people in that crowd in Saint Peter's 319 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.920 in the piazza, and there were a lot of young 320 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:10.359 people who were thrilled to be part of that. So 321 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:13.720 maybe it is a bit of a renaissance for the 322 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:15.759 Catholic Church in America. We'll have to see. 323 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.359 We can always hope, So no. 324 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:22.359 No question about it. When you were over there, you 325 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:27.480 got to meet three of the popes at various times. 326 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.519 Who would this pope, in your opinion, be closest to 327 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.319 You knew three popes and probably other popes than that, 328 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:38.920 but you knew John Paul the second, you knew Pope Benedict, 329 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.200 and you knew Pope Francis. 330 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:49.400 Yeah, I think he is very much like a successor 331 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:55.039 to Francis. And I think I mean he's going to 332 00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:00.400 feel close to Francis in another way because that you 333 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.440 have to pray for him when he wakes up tomorrow morning. 334 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.880 He may have been in surre seren when he came 335 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:11.119 out on the balcony, but when he wakes up tomorrow morning. 336 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:16.759 He's got two big sets of challenges that Francis, to 337 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:20.319 his credit, worked hard on and was barely able to 338 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:24.599 make a dent in. And one is, as it's increasingly 339 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.960 coming out in the press, is that the Vatican is 340 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:33.079 in severe financial distress. It has a huge deficit, it 341 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:38.559 has no realistic plans for fixing it. And just in November, 342 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:43.640 Pope Francis announced that the pension fund for Vatican employees 343 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:46.519 is in trouble and will not be able to meet 344 00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:52.759 its obligations to its retired votes within what he said 345 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.400 is the medium term, which everybody thinks means within the 346 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:01.640 next ten years. So Pope Leo the fourteenth has a 347 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.880 big financial headache. I mean, there just has to be 348 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.759 I hope the cardinals talked about this when they were 349 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:13.920 in conclave. There has to be something done because things 350 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:17.519 are going downhill fast. And the other big challenge, and 351 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:20.519 again Francis worked on this, but it's what I would 352 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:25.119 call the Vatican deep state. There is a bureaucracy over 353 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:30.079 there in its own culture, and even a pope, Pope 354 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:34.559 Francis even at times felt defeated by it. 355 00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.319 Yeah, that's what's called the Curia. If I'm not mistaken, 356 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:42.839 that's what's called the Curia, right, No problem, okay, Professor Glendon, 357 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:46.799 Mary and Glendon. The book has a lot of relevance 358 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.759 the Court of Three Popes. I'm sure that is still 359 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:53.400 available through Amazon and places like that. I appreciate you 360 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.960 taking the time to chat with us tonight. I always 361 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:00.880 enjoy talking with you. Your experience is amazing, and their 362 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.799 experience both as a lawyer, as a professor, and as 363 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:06.240 a diplomat. Thank you so much for your time tonight. 364 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:08.759 It's my pleasure, Dan, Thank you. 365 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:11.160 All right, we're going to take a quick break here. 366 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:14.759 It is nine thirty four, so we are a little 367 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:18.039 bit late for the news at the bottom of the hour. 368 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.279 That's okay. Now it is up to you. I want 369 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.160 to know your thoughts. What did you think when you 370 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:28.039 heard the news today? Where were you? It came out 371 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:30.279 of the blue. I was watching one of the midday 372 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:34.920 newscasts and they actually broke into the CBS news, breaking 373 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:38.599 into channel four. Uh, and the network just took it 374 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.759 over and told us that the white smoke had appeared 375 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:45.200 and that a new pope had been chosen. And that's 376 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:47.480 been my day since twelve oh eight. I suspect it's 377 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:50.000 probably been a lot of your day six one, seven, two, five, four, 378 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.000 ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty. 379 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.599 If you're a Catholic, you can celebrate. If you're a 380 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.200 non Catholic, you can tell us exactly what you think. 381 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.000 And if you're a falling away Catholic, does this inspire 382 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:04.240 you to give the church a second look, particularly now 383 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:08.599 that we have the first American pope in history, in history. 384 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.799 But back on Nightside, light the lines up. Let's hear 385 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:13.519 from you. Back on Nightside right after this. 386 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.119 If you're on night Side with Dan Ray on w 387 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.680 b Z, Boston's news radio. 388 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:26.359 All right, well, my lines are quiet. That's not good. 389 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:30.440 That's not good. If you happen to be someone who 390 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:35.559 is a practicing Catholic, I assume that tonight you welcome this, 391 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:39.680 particularly in view of the fact that there is a 392 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:43.480 an American who now is the head of the church 393 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:46.640 to which you belong. If you're falling away Catholic, and 394 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.039 again I'm not going to talk religion per se, but 395 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:51.799 I'd love to know, does this make a difference to you? 396 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:57.880 Is this the sort of a decision made by the 397 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.480 higher ups of the Catholic Church, the College of cars 398 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.319 that might induce you to, after having been away, give 399 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:11.240 the church a try. If you're a young person. This 400 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.359 pope is sixty nine years of age, which, obviously, as 401 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.480