WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:15.279 Welcome to the gun Deput Podcast. I am your host, Trevor. 2 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:19.120 My computer is acting a little weird. I know I 3 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:21.039 shared this with you. I know you don't care, but 4 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:26.199 how how can my brand new MacBook pro be this 5 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:32.039 screwed up? Already? I'm hard on computers. Anyway, we're back. Sorry. 6 00:00:32.039 --> 00:00:37.759 We had a couple sort of odd episodes, just you know, 7 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:42.920 sort of wanting to branch into new territories. You know, 8 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:47.679 I'm starting to get really into history and things. I 9 00:00:47.799 --> 00:00:51.719 was I was reading this book about the Romanovs. I 10 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:55.600 haven't thought about that since high school or whenever I 11 00:00:55.719 --> 00:01:00.359 last learned about the Bolsheviks. And it's just there is 12 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:09.040 something about history that captivates me. Science, philosophy, history, theology. 13 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:16.120 That is like the the tetra, the tetrahedron of fascination. 14 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:19.319 I was trying to think of how to say trifecta 15 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:23.400 of four, but I can only come up with tetrahedron. Anyway. 16 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:28.400 So that said, you know, I'm not I don't know history. 17 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:33.239 I'm not a historian, and so it's it's tough. You know, 18 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:38.799 there's this thing that scientists do and I always appreciate 19 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:41.760 people who will remind me of this point in a 20 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.439 kind way, and that is we because we are an 21 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:50.879 expert in a particular field, we tend to just assume 22 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:55.319 we're experts, like we just adopt the role of expert, 23 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:59.599 and so any anything that comes up, it's like, well, 24 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.079 I'm incredibly smart, let me share my opinions, Like surely 25 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:07.760 everyone wants everyone wants to know what I think, and 26 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:10.800 that is a very dangerous, very dangerous place to be. 27 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:15.840 So I don't want to commit that well trodden mistake 28 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.800 by branching into something new too soon. So with that 29 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:22.800 in mind, we're going to stick to our bread and butter, 30 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:31.360 which is sort of this this intersection between you know, 31 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:34.319 my instinct is to say science, but it's not really 32 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:39.439 science necessarily. It's it's really philosophy, just like an honest 33 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:46.680 appraisal of what we can into it, what we what 34 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:51.680 is obvious to us, what we can observe, and whether 35 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:57.919 or not that supports a sort of common sense or 36 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:03.520 intuitive whether or not the existence of God is sort 37 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:07.879 of common sense or intuitive. And of course you guys 38 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.639 know from the show that I think it is, and 39 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:18.319 I think you can make increasingly complex scientific or theological 40 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:27.680 or apologetic cases for why that's true. But sometimes I 41 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:33.080 think just the simplest, the simplest things are the most effective. 42 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:38.680 Now I can say something that's very simple in ninety 43 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.159 nine out of one hundred people, because they're so bogged 44 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:45.520 down in whatever wherever they're at in their journey, it 45 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:49.520 may not really be compelling. But for that one person 46 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.879 where it hits them right at the right time, I 47 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:55.800 think just simple arguments can be incredibly powerful. I mean, 48 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:03.240 one of the ones that William Lane Craig has been popularizing, 49 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:08.240 repopularizing because it's an incredibly old argument. It's a medieval 50 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:13.479 argument is the calom cosmological argument, and it just makes sense. 51 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:17.639 You know, it's hey, we know it's intuitive to us. 52 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:23.040 It's common sense that anything that has a beginning has 53 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:29.079 a cause. This is true of all things. You can 54 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:33.959 sort of trace things back to like approximate cause, but 55 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:36.519 then depending on how you define cause, you kind of 56 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:42.079 have to keep tracing things back further and further and further, 57 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:46.079 and pretty soon you get back to the beginning of 58 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:49.920 the universe. Well, if the universe as at the beginning, 59 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:53.639 then it too has a cause. And when you start 60 00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:00.000 thinking about what could cause a universe, you start saying 61 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:06.920 founding pretty uh uh, I will certainly not intuitive if 62 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:13.160 you start sounding pretty like committed to an atheistic worldview, 63 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:16.560 if you start saying things like, well there was no cause, 64 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:23.879 or it's merely the cause is merely random. And the 65 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:31.000 reason why that's not intuitive is the simpler solution clearly 66 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:36.519 just seems like, well, there could be nothing, and yet 67 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:42.000 there's something, and this something is incredibly complex, and it's 68 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.639 incredibly complex in a world where the physical laws say 69 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:50.199 it shouldn't be, you know, second law thermodynamics. But what's up, buddy, 70 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:57.360 I'm recording what I know. I approved it. I approved 71 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:02.839 it for you. I feel bad for you, dude, high lied. 72 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:10.480 I have money. I told my son he's discovered Minecraft 73 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:14.680 add ons. We just finished playing like How to Train 74 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:17.720 Your Dragon Minecraft add on. Anyway, he wanted to buy 75 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:19.519 something else. I told him I was out of money, 76 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:26.000 but I approved it. Yeah, feels pretty good. Feels pretty 77 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:29.040 good spending two dollars on your son on a Minecraft 78 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:34.120 add on. My kids are lucky that my parents never 79 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:37.959 would have done that. So I'm like, I'm living out 80 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:43.240 my revenge in a way that benefits my son. Anyway, 81 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:46.319 what was I talking to about Oh, honestly, don't remember 82 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:50.560 something about Colomb's cosmological arguments. Oh yeah, here we are. 83 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:54.120 We find ourselves in this strangely ordered universe that seems 84 00:06:54.160 --> 00:07:01.839 fine tuned for life. Now, fine tuned can mean different things. 85 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.160 You know. You could argue that we don't really know 86 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:08.759 how fine to the universe is. But clearly there's many 87 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:16.360 potential combinations of constants physical constants that would lead to 88 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:20.560 no universe or universe that does not support life. And 89 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:25.199 yet here we are, and we know things tend to 90 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:30.480 decay towards chaos, but yet here we are in a 91 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:38.519 very incredibly ordered world, incredibly ordered, and the natural state 92 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.000 of things seems like chaos. But yet we kind of 93 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:44.959 claw order out of chaos, which is a central religious theme. 94 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:49.759 And so I don't know, it just seems kind of 95 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:53.079 intuitive to say, well, yeah, maybe maybe there's a reason 96 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:58.079 for all this, you know, and you don't even have 97 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:02.240 to take it that far. It's like maybe maybe something 98 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:09.680 or someone made this or toppled that first domino in 99 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:14.639 that long chain of causal events. It's just really hard 100 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:18.879 to imagine a universe where there is no first cause. 101 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:24.040 And of course there's a million other things we talk 102 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:25.879 about on the show that sort of support this idea. 103 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:30.319 So I came across this interview this is with Ross, 104 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.200 do that do that? I didn't realize this guy was 105 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.000 like not liked like people don't. People tend not to 106 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:42.159 like him. People call him the most annoying guy at 107 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:44.799 the New York Times. But it's funny because I think 108 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:48.799 he's pretty interesting. He interviewed bart Erman, which is a 109 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:52.559 you know, atheist New Testament scholar. They has a lot 110 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:57.879 of animosity towards the Christian religion, does tons of interviews, 111 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:01.840 writes good book. I mean, I would say much more 112 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:06.840 reserved books, you know, because there's there are works of scholarships, 113 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:09.120 so it's not quite as emotional. He actually does a 114 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.720 pretty good job of separating the two. But when he's 115 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:15.399 just doing a casual interview, he yeah, he's has a 116 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:20.600 lot of animosity towards Christendom. And I thought he did 117 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:22.639 a great job interview. And I was surprised to learn 118 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.360 that he was Catholic. He objected in places, but he 119 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:30.679 didn't overstate his case like many Christian apologists will do. 120 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:35.039 And so I thought it was great. I thought it 121 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.519 was interesting. He sort of became well known to me 122 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:44.120 when he interviewed Peter Teel. Peter Teele the the the 123 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:55.279 billionaire homosexual conservative who is building the Beast Systems. He's 124 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:59.840 a large shareholder in Pallentier. He's a one of or 125 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:04.480 the founder. After he's sold PayPal with Elon Musk, and 126 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:08.600 Elon Musk put his thirty million into SpaceX Solar City 127 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.879 in Tesla, and Peter Teal put his money into Teal 128 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:17.000 Capital and Pallenteer and has been working on enslaving humanity 129 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:22.600 ever since. Anyway, so Ross asked him, should they're having 130 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:27.399 this crazy discussion about the Antichrist. Peter Teel's like obsessed 131 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.759 with the Antichrist. He he's come up. He's just sort 132 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:35.639 of invented his own like theolog theology around who the 133 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:39.360 Antichrist is or what he is. And he sort of 134 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:45.679 sees the Antichrist as like anti technological sentiment, right, like 135 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.720 people who don't basically people who aren't like falling over 136 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:57.240 themselves to help Palenteer, you know, build lethal drones that 137 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:02.480 could kill people onto man. Anyone who sees that as 138 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:06.720 like not good is actually it kind of embodies this 139 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:12.759 anti Christ spirit. And so they're just going on about this, 140 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:18.480 and Ross is appropriately skeptical, I thought, And finally he goes, 141 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:24.440 do you think humanity should endure? And Peter Teel, being 142 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:29.559 just an odd guy, took like way too long to answer, 143 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:33.679 and Ross goes, that should be an easy answer, like 144 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:36.000 he paused so long that Ross is like looking around, 145 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:39.360 he's doing like the Jim Helper thing, or he like 146 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:43.080 looks at the camera like what breaks the fourth wall, goes, 147 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:46.559 you know, surely you should be able to answer that question, 148 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.960 and finally he's like, yeah, yeah, I think humanity should 149 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:55.960 endure anyway. So that's how I first heard about Ross. 150 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.000 So I was excited to see that he is being 151 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:04.639 interviewed by our buddy everybody's favorite guy, Alex O'Connor, And 152 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:09.840 it's how I thought it was fascinating. Now I'm listening 153 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:11.440 to this and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is 154 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:16.519 my this is how I this is my viewpoint. Like 155 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.720 I'm I have personal interests in theology and the different 156 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:25.960 you know, learning about the different denominations and all the details. 157 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.799 But really, the one thing I'm sure of and the 158 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:30.559 thing I'd like to get back to on the show 159 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:35.559 is just that, you know, God must be real you know, 160 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:40.279 it's it. I think it would be irrational to think otherwise, 161 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:42.919 and that I think that is the way the culture 162 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:47.000 is moving now. Most people, I don't think are very 163 00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:51.919 like I don't think they take it much beyond that, 164 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:57.320 but I think that's something most of us, or maybe 165 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.440 I'm just speaking for myself, art like becoming increased seemingly 166 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.200 confident in him, and so I really I really liked 167 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:07.360 his viewpoint. And we'll play this in a minute. I'm 168 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.759 really nervous my computer's gonna do that thing where the 169 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:16.320 audio is like wraw again, So hopefully that doesn't that 170 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.840 doesn't happen. But anyway, I love the episode. I'm sitting here, 171 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.080 I'm thinking about how great this is, and then I 172 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.919 make the mistake of reading the comments. And I've never 173 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:31.080 seen because Alex O'Connor's audience is probably mostly agnostic, but 174 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.159 he'll he'll talk to William Lane Craig and everyone's like, 175 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:38.000 great combo, very interesting, you know, I disagree, but still 176 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:42.960 very interesting with this guy. They were like brutal. They 177 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.279 were talking about this is the worst interview. This should 178 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:49.720 not be on the internet. And I'm curious, like, well, 179 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.000 do you guys have any sense and email me, guys, 180 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:53.559 I view book at gmail dot com. Do you have 181 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.759 any sense why that would be. It really doesn't make 182 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:59.240 sense to me because in my opinion, like he was 183 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.720 not like number one, I thought the interview was interesting, 184 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:07.559 but number two there's like it's very mild, Like he's 185 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:12.360 not really making like a crazy case. The book is 186 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:15.919 you know, I forget the title, but he's basically trying 187 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:19.039 to make the case that you're obliged to believe in God, 188 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:23.600 like the rational view is to believe that God is 189 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:25.720 real at this point, like this is where we're at 190 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:30.919 in our society, which I agree. I agree, So I 191 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:36.120 was loving it in the dude, the comments, the comments 192 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:45.200 were absolutely brutal. So I'm just closing a few. I'm 193 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:50.120 closing our studio, I'm closing my Python internal development environments, 194 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:54.159 I'm closing my MRI viewers hoping that we can hit 195 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:58.159 play on this bad boy. So we'll get started right now. 196 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:00.679 The title of the video is Religion is Obligation. 197 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:05.639 Dalfit. 198 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:06.360 Welcome to the show. 199 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:08.320 Thank you so much for having me. It's great to 200 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:08.679 be here. 201 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:08.960 Yeah. 202 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.360 In the introduction of your book, Believe, which I promise 203 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:16.799 I would waive you say that religious belief is not 204 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.320 just an option but an obligation. 205 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:25.320 What does that mean. It means that there are enough 206 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:31.279 reasons sort of in front of us that don't require 207 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:39.279 insanely complicated philosophical arguments or personal mystical experiences to think 208 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:42.879 that the universe exists for a reason, that it is 209 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:49.279 a fashioned or created thing rather than a accidental or 210 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.960 entirely contingent thing, and that human life has some sort 211 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.360 of cosmic purpose within that framework. And I take that 212 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:02.360 to be sort of the jumping off point for religious 213 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.519 exploration to interest and belief. So in sort of a 214 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:09.200 minimal Yeah, it's a minimal claim. In a way, it's 215 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.080 a maximal claim if you find it preposterous, But it's 216 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.159 not a claim that you know, everyone is obliged to 217 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.600 do X or Y or z or fully fulfill the 218 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:23.879 dictates of a particular church. But being interested in religion, 219 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.480 I think there's more than enough out there and before 220 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:32.919 your eyes to make that intellectually obligatory. 221 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:35.480 As in, you think that when you do take a 222 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:38.720 look at this evidence, there's enough there that to dismiss 223 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:40.840 it and to believe in this alternate view that you 224 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:46.320 talked about the sort of accidental contingent existence becomes a 225 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.840 full on mistake. In other words, do you sort of 226 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:50.840 grant any credence to the agnostic? And I mean, like 227 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:54.320 the informed agnostic who isn't just someone who hasn't looked 228 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:54.879 into it, you. 229 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:59.000 Mean someone hypothetically who hosts a podcast on which he's 230 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:05.000 constantly theologians and philosophers on. I mean, I'm, you know, 231 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.200 not to personalize things at the outset, but you know, 232 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:12.559 I think I think that the agnostic who is exploring 233 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:17.480 religion and engaged in religious arguments is probably clearing the 234 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:20.839 bar at the outset. And then the question becomes, at 235 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:23.400 what point does that become kind of a you know, 236 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.519 a hamster wheel that you trap yourself in. 237 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.880 A bit, man, I feel like this is my shrink 238 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:34.400 talking to me. I would love that. What do you 239 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.640 love if everyone watched this and was just like, yeah, 240 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:43.839 I agree. You know, clearly the world is mysterious, and 241 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.240 clearly there's not going to come a day where we've 242 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:51.720 just explained everything. Like something A popular argument that people 243 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.359 make less now, but that was very popular amongst like 244 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:59.480 the rational atheist books, was this idea that you know, 245 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:04.559 people making arguments for God especially if they're scientific arguments, 246 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:06.759 but making arguments for God or making a God of 247 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:13.480 the gaps argument, and so, you know, the the specter, 248 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.640 is that really the right use of that word, because 249 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.319 spectrum means ghosts, but I'm not sure if I mean spectrum. 250 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.400 I'm gonna I'm gonna go with spectrum. Okay. The spectrum 251 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:28.960 of possible things that can be explained by science is 252 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:36.079 ever increasing, right, and uh, and therefore whatever remains is 253 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:40.640 attributed to God by those you know, few people, those 254 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:45.079 few superstitious science deniers that insist there's a God. You know, 255 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:49.759 the things that God explained shrinks. Actually, though, I think 256 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.519 what I think, what we're all becoming becoming more aware of, 257 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:58.599 is that science does not explain things. It describes them. 258 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:03.559 And so again, the map in the terrain metaphor, you know, 259 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.680 the map of California is not California. It's a useful 260 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.400 predictive model. It is a guide. It allows you to 261 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:14.960 make predictions, it informs you, but it is not the thing. 262 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.240 You know, you can't make a perfect map of California 263 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.000 and go, oh, we've explained California. We've explained what it 264 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:28.319 is and where it comes from. That's that's a category 265 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:33.519 air and so increasingly that's the case. And I've seen 266 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:35.160 this happen in the last few years. I think it 267 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.720 turns the whole dynamic on its head. Science has been 268 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:42.000 trying to become better and better at measuring things and 269 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:46.440 making better and better theories and predictive models that explain things. 270 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.680 But the thing is they don't actually explain it. And 271 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:50.960 we've talked about that at length. So let's just get 272 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:51.680 back to the interview. 273 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:57.839 Yeah. I do think that the the convinced atheist is 274 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:01.839 working against the preponderance of the evidence, and the person 275 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.680 who says there's nothing here of interest, you know, in 276 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.440 the same way. So yeah, the sort of the religiously 277 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.680 interested agnostic is at least, you know, at least on 278 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.119 the right path. Yeah, surely. 279 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:17.960 Well, when talking about reasons to believe in God, you 280 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.200 do sort of have this wealth of opportunity because there 281 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.039 are arguments everywhere you look. I have sometimes said that 282 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.200 I feel like the best argument for God might be 283 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:30.480 the argument for God's existence. From the number of arguments 284 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:32.839 for God's existence, It's just so funny that anywhere you 285 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:35.720 look you can construct some kind of syllogism. Right, But 286 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:38.079 in the book, it seems like you kind of really 287 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:41.480 focus on two things as pertains to natural thel. 288 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.599 I thought I might explain the word syllogism, because that's 289 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.400 not really a word you hear every day, and I'm 290 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:48.200 actually not sure I'll do a great job, but I'll 291 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:53.720 try Jatgybda if you must know the best explanation. But 292 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:58.880 my sense of the word syllogism is that it's a 293 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:03.880 way of making an argument that gets you to agree 294 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:10.279 with one thing, like there's something that is clearly true, 295 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:14.920 and then therefore this other like subordinate argument must also 296 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:17.440 be true. I think the klom cosmological argument is actually 297 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.200 probably a syllogriism. I'm not sure, but you know, hey, 298 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:26.279 the universe has a beginning, right, And until recently, basically 299 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:30.480 everyone would say right, and you say, well, everything that 300 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:35.039 has a beginning has a cause, right, right? And then 301 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:37.799 you say okay, and then here comes your minor premise, 302 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:42.880 your subordinate premise, which is, therefore the universe has a cause, 303 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.200 a cause of agent. My son's mad at me for 304 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:50.000 not buying him a second minecraft to add on, See, 305 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.599 this is what happens. This is what happens. You think 306 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:55.000 you're doing the right thing. You give in, you spend 307 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.519 the four dollars. So he's now drumming right next to me, 308 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:02.240 and he knows he's doing it on purpose. But I'm 309 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:07.720 gonna stay strong. I'm not going to give in. I should, actually, 310 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:10.319 you know what, I should go play with them. Let's 311 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.200 listen to a few more menaces and we'll wrap. 312 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:16.960 This up, one of them being the orderliness and apparent 313 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:22.519 design of the universe, and the other being consciousness. I'm 314 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.599 more interested in the second, generally, but both of these 315 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:26.240 are important to me, and I suppose I kind of 316 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.920 wanted to probe your reasons for thinking that these are 317 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.440 meaningful cases, and then also why it leads to the 318 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.519 particular conclusion that you've given them. I suppose maybe it 319 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:40.640 might be good to start with the mind stuff, just 320 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.559 because that's what I'm interested in. Consciousness is clearly a mystery, 321 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:46.400 and I think that when you speak to most atheists 322 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:52.400 you might rub up against a kind of materialist emergentist. Oh, 323 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.799 consciousness is just something science hasn't explained. It will get 324 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.839 there one day. I'm not like that. I think consciousness 325 00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:59.160 needs to be taken seriously. 326 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:03.240 I think that, thank goodness, is there anything worse than 327 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:07.119 an emergencyst What did he call them? Someone who thinks 328 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.440 that consciousness is an emergent property of some physical system 329 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:16.200 in the brain. This is It's crazy to me how 330 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:21.000 many neuroscientists feel this way. You know, I'm in the field, 331 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.200 but I'm not in the consciousness field. You know, I 332 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:27.440 do neuroscience research. We don't you know, the type of 333 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.440 research I do does not really butt up against this 334 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:36.279 kind of stuff. But from the limited insight I've had 335 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:41.000 working in the field, it is shocking to me how 336 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:49.359 philosophically ignorant neuroscientists tend to be. It's like, it's like 337 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:54.160 if you just I don't know how to explain it, 338 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:59.400 but you just like you're so immersed, You're so deep 339 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:03.160 in the weeds of your field that you like can't 340 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.480 see out of the weeds. Like you think you think 341 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.160 the complexity is a solution to everything. But that's that 342 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:14.960 is that is what do they call it? Like, you know, 343 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:17.000 when it does not compute what's the word I'm looking for? 344 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:21.920 Oh my gosh, this is gonna this is this is 345 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:24.640 gonna drive me crazy, Like not a syntax air but 346 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:28.240 a non sequitur. Oh my gosh, it just is comp 347 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.880 it's a category air, it's a non sequitur, and they're 348 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:37.839 just so deep in the specific like nuances of their 349 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.160 field they can't like come up for breath. So I'm 350 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.519 very I'm very relieved to hear that. And we knew 351 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.960 this that that Alex does not share this emergent property view, 352 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.000 which is completely ridiculous. 353 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:54.039 Consciousness is probably more ubiquitous and foundational, and people typically 354 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:56.039 give it credit for But I want to know why 355 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:59.119 it is that you think that the mystery of consciousness 356 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:02.039 and the experience of you consciousness points to something more. 357 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:08.240 Like God, cocaine and morphine. It was dispensed like candy 358 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:08.759 and that. 359 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.680 Commercial. Sorry that sounds exciting. 360 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:19.279 I'm not sure which point should come first, actually, but 361 00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:24.119 I would say you start with the mystery itself, right, 362 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:26.000 And I mean one of the questions that sort of 363 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:32.279 attends religious debate is, you know, does the supernatural exist? 364 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:35.279 Meaning right to do? And there's a million ways to 365 00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:37.680 define the supernatural that we're not going to resolve here today, 366 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.680 but I'm trying, I try in the book to work 367 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.319 with kind of you know, folk definitions, common sense definitions, 368 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:47.880 right and there it would just mean does something exist 369 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:54.000 that does not appear to be simply contained in a 370 00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:02.039 materialist description of the world and consciousness is when you 371 00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:04.359 get into those arguments, people sort of move quickly to 372 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:09.319 you know, do ghosts exist? Do miracles exist? Near death experiences? 373 00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:12.000 Are those real? And I talk a talk about those 374 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.720 things in the book. Those are also important to my argument. 375 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:19.160 But my basic view is that you know, there's a 376 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.359 form of supernatural experience. That is, it's easy to miss 377 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:24.240 it because it's right here in front of our eyes. 378 00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.880 Like you and I are in a particular way having 379 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:33.640 supernatural experiences already right now, just in communicating with one another. 380 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.440 We are sort of sharing thoughts hopefully, you know, depending 381 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.759 on how the conversation goes. That are very very difficult 382 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.599 to reduce to physical descriptions of sound waves traveling from 383 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:48.640 my mouth to your ears and back and forth. Very 384 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:53.039 difficult to reduce to brain mapping and neurons firing, even 385 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:56.400 if you can sort of reduce them to localities and say, oh, 386 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:58.359 this part of the conversation. 387 00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.279 I'm not sure if this guy's steal in my stuff 388 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:01.440 or if I'm stealing his. 389 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.640 But I like it activates that part of Alex's brain 390 00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:10.559 and so on this really profound as you yourself, I 391 00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:15.400 think would agree difficult to bridge philosophical chasm between the 392 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:19.640 materialist description and what seems to happen to human beings 393 00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:26.000 in conscious experience. And I think that alone sort of 394 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:29.599 at the very least sets up a question, which is, 395 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:32.359 you know, in a way what you could say one 396 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.440 of the first religious questions is what is primary mind 397 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:42.039 or matter? Right? And we have access to both, and 398 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.960 modern science and all its great achievements are founded on 399 00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:49.640 prioritizing the study of matter and what matter does and 400 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:52.759 how matter interacts. And it's been a tremendously fruitful project. 401 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.839