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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the murder of an unidentified girl

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<v Speaker 1>known only as the Saint Louis Jane Doe. Robin, do

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<v Speaker 1>you want to catch everyone up on what we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about in our previous episode?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, if you haven't heard, Ashley has to miss these

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<v Speaker 2>series of episodes because she's busy, So I will be

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<v Speaker 2>sharing all the details about the case with Jules and

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<v Speaker 2>she will be giving off her reaction. The Saint Louis

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<v Speaker 2>Jane Doe is one of the more infamous unidentified decedents

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<v Speaker 2>who has yet to get their name back because of

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<v Speaker 2>the horrific nature of this crime. She was an African

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<v Speaker 2>American girl who was found inside an abandoned building in

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<v Speaker 2>Saint Louis in nineteen eighty three February of nineteen eighty three,

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<v Speaker 2>and what was particularly horrific about it is that she

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<v Speaker 2>had been beheaded and an extensive search failed to turn

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<v Speaker 2>up her head. So they've never been able to make

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<v Speaker 2>a composite sketch or a facial reconstruction to show what

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<v Speaker 2>she might have looked like. She even sexually abused. The

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<v Speaker 2>only thing that she was wearing was a yellow sweater,

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<v Speaker 2>and try as they might, they were unable to determine

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<v Speaker 2>her identity, but they suspected that she was not murdered

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<v Speaker 2>in that building and may have been from another location

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<v Speaker 2>outside Saint Louis before the killer beheaded her and disposed

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<v Speaker 2>of her body. At that location. She was buried under

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<v Speaker 2>the name Precious Hope, which is how we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>be referring to here. We looked at a number of

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<v Speaker 2>different leads. They looked at a child murderer named Vernon Brown,

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<v Speaker 2>who killed at least three people and was living in

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<v Speaker 2>Saint Louis around the time period that Hope was murdered,

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<v Speaker 2>but they never found any evidence to link him to

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<v Speaker 2>the crime. There was a frustrating incident where they enlisted

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<v Speaker 2>the help of a police psychic named Noreen Rainier, and

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<v Speaker 2>the police decided to mail her some of the key

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<v Speaker 2>pieces of evidence, like the sweater and the nylon rope

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<v Speaker 2>which was used to bind Hope, but after a year

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<v Speaker 2>sent it back, it somehow went missing, so this evidence

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<v Speaker 2>has not been found, even though it can contain potential

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<v Speaker 2>DNA evidence on there. They were able to extract new

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<v Speaker 2>samples of her DNA and they did some stable ipotope

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<v Speaker 2>analysis to determine that she likely was not from Missouri

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<v Speaker 2>or Illinois and listed a whole bunch of different states

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<v Speaker 2>that were alternate candidates. And they have entered her DNA

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<v Speaker 2>into the genealogical database get match and found some matches

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<v Speaker 2>from some individuals were born about one hundred years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>And the genetic genealogist C. C. Moore actually spoke with

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<v Speaker 2>descendants of these two people who were the DNA match,

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<v Speaker 2>but they decided not to cooperate and instead elected to

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<v Speaker 2>remove the relatives DNA from geed match. So it's still

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<v Speaker 2>up for debate whether these people might know some thing

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<v Speaker 2>about Hope's true identity or if they were just paranoid

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<v Speaker 2>about having their DNA being looked at by law enforcement.

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<v Speaker 2>But as at the time of this recording, there was

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<v Speaker 2>still an effort underway to try to figure out Hope's

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<v Speaker 2>identity as well as figure out who killed her, and

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<v Speaker 2>it sounds like it's going to be a long and

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<v Speaker 2>arduous process, but they're still working at it and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>hoping that one day we will finally figure out who

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<v Speaker 2>she was. So right from the outset, it was suspected

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<v Speaker 2>that Hope had been killed by a family member or

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<v Speaker 2>caregiver rather than some random murderer. It seems likely that

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<v Speaker 2>the perpetrator went to the trouble of removing her head

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<v Speaker 2>to prevent identification via dental records, though they obviously wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>have been thinking of DNA or genetic genealogy back in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty three. In the majority of cases involving deceased

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<v Speaker 2>children who cannot be identified, facial reconstruction is used to

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<v Speaker 2>create a composite sketch of what the victim may have

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<v Speaker 2>looked like. But you're not going to find that on

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<v Speaker 2>Hope's profile pages at websites such as the Dough Network

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<v Speaker 2>or the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Instead,

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<v Speaker 2>all they showcase our photographs of Hope's yellow sweater, as

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<v Speaker 2>well as the red and white nylon rope which was

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<v Speaker 2>used to bind her, and the situation is all the

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<v Speaker 2>more sad when you know that those items have since

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<v Speaker 2>gone missing. In the Our Precious Hope Revisited documentary, the

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<v Speaker 2>police confirmed that they were working with Paarabond nano Labs

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<v Speaker 2>in hopes of using DNA phenotyping to create an image

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<v Speaker 2>of what Hope might have looked like, but apparently they

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<v Speaker 2>cannot guarantee that this process will create reliable composites for

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<v Speaker 2>victims under the age of fourteen. I know that investigators

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<v Speaker 2>cross checked Hope with a number of missing children's reports

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<v Speaker 2>involving African American girls, and one of the most promising

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<v Speaker 2>candidates was a twelve year old girl named Sharon Cole,

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<v Speaker 2>who vanished outside her family's residence in Manhattan. Not only

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<v Speaker 2>did Sharon go missing on February to twenty fifth, nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty three, three days before Hope's body was found, but

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<v Speaker 2>she was also last seen wearing a gold sweater. However,

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<v Speaker 2>if you search online, Ron is on a list of

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<v Speaker 2>missing children who have been ruled out as being Hope,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm assuming they've already done a DNA comparison with her.

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<v Speaker 1>If she was twelve years old and went missing, then

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<v Speaker 1>she must have been an extremely small twelve year old,

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<v Speaker 1>because experts had thought that Hope was between the ages

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<v Speaker 1>of eight and eleven, so being one year outside of

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<v Speaker 1>that would make me think that she would likely be

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<v Speaker 1>quite a bit taller and maybe potentially larger than what

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<v Speaker 1>Little Hope would have been. But they obviously got their

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<v Speaker 1>answer if they ruled her out there would have been

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<v Speaker 1>a reason that they ruled her out. I would hope

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<v Speaker 1>it wouldn't be like the pubic care where they're just like, no,

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<v Speaker 1>this has nothing to do with it.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I think that they've covered all their bases

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<v Speaker 2>as far as looking at promising candidates who can be Hope.

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<v Speaker 2>I know that in a lot of these cases involving

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<v Speaker 2>John or Jane does online sluice will try to connect

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<v Speaker 2>the victim with profile pages they find for missing people,

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<v Speaker 2>But more often than not, it turns out when these

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<v Speaker 2>victims are identified that they were never officially reported missing.

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<v Speaker 2>They're not listed on any of the missing person's websites,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's usually no information available about them anywhere on

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<v Speaker 2>the internet because there was never an official investigation. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm willing to wager that whoever Hope was, she's not

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<v Speaker 2>out there on any missing person's websites, and it's probably

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<v Speaker 2>someone we've never heard of before.

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<v Speaker 1>It's wild to think of a little girl between the

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<v Speaker 1>ages of eight and eleven being you know, she would

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<v Speaker 1>be in school. One would hope, right, One would hope

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<v Speaker 1>that like she isn't being kept in a home and

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<v Speaker 1>like abused or homeschooled, and so she doesn't have interactions

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<v Speaker 1>with the outside world. But when a child vanishes, one

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<v Speaker 1>typically as neighbors, other family members, you know, school officials, friends,

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<v Speaker 1>people around them would ask those questions. So you've got

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<v Speaker 1>to wonder about what type of environment that little Hope

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<v Speaker 1>was growing up in or was in if nobody reported

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<v Speaker 1>her missing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we talked about on our last episode when we

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<v Speaker 2>made comparisons to the boy in the box who has

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<v Speaker 2>been identified as Joseph Augustus Sorelli, and they're still trying

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<v Speaker 2>to piece together as background. But I have a feeling

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<v Speaker 2>he was like a shut in who never went to school,

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<v Speaker 2>never spent a lot of time interacting with friends or neighbors.

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<v Speaker 2>So nobody missed him when he was gone because maybe

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<v Speaker 2>people did not even know he existed. And they did

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<v Speaker 2>check school records for Hope in Missouri and did not

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<v Speaker 2>find any candidates who seemed like lightly matches to her.

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<v Speaker 2>So she did go to school. I'm willing to bet

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<v Speaker 2>it was in another far away state, and back in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty three in the pre internet world, they probably

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<v Speaker 2>maybe if she went missing, just assumed she moved or

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<v Speaker 2>something and did not suspect that she would have been

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<v Speaker 2>a murdered child found in Saint Louis.

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<v Speaker 1>So.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time Hope was discovered, the FBI considered the

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<v Speaker 2>decapitation of such a young victim to be unprecedented, but

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<v Speaker 2>another crime of this nature would take place eighteen years later.

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<v Speaker 2>On April the twenty eighth, two thousand and one, the

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<v Speaker 2>decapitated nude body of an African American girl was discovered

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<v Speaker 2>in a wooded area near a park in Kansas City, Missouri,

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<v Speaker 2>and three days later, her head was found nearby and

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<v Speaker 2>was wrapped in a trash bag. Since she could not

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<v Speaker 2>be identified, she was given the nickname Precious Dough, and

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<v Speaker 2>of course, given the similarities between the two crimes and

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that they both took place in Missouri, it

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<v Speaker 2>was speculated that there might be a connection to Precious

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<v Speaker 2>Hope's murder. Well, four years later, Precious Dough was positively

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<v Speaker 2>identified as four year old Erica Green, and her mother,

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<v Speaker 2>Michelle Johnson, and stepfather Heral Johnson were subsequently charged and

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<v Speaker 2>convicted of her murder. After severely beating Erica, Harel used

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<v Speaker 2>a pair of hedge clippers to sever her head from

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<v Speaker 2>her body, and Michelle helped cover up the crime as

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<v Speaker 2>she removed Erica's body from the residence in a stroller

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<v Speaker 2>to give off the false impression that she was sleeping.

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<v Speaker 2>The Johnsons were ruled out as having any involvement in

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<v Speaker 2>Hope's murder, but the whole case demonstrated the people are

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<v Speaker 2>capable of doing unimaginable things to their own children. It's

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<v Speaker 2>possible that a similar situation occurred with Hope, as she

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<v Speaker 2>may have been murdered by an abusive stepfather or boyfriend

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<v Speaker 2>and her mother helped cover the whole thing up, which

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<v Speaker 2>is why she was never reported missing. This is a

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<v Speaker 2>scenario which was presented when Vernon Brown became a potential suspect,

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<v Speaker 2>but we'll get back to him later. A few years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>stable isotope analysis was performed on Hope's bones in an

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<v Speaker 2>attempt to figure out where she was from, and while

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<v Speaker 2>no less than seventeen states were listed as potential candidates,

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<v Speaker 2>the one consistent conclusion from these tests is that she

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<v Speaker 2>likely did not hail from Saint Louis or the state

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<v Speaker 2>of Missouri. If Hope was not from the area, this

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<v Speaker 2>would definitely go a long way towards explaining why no

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<v Speaker 2>one was able to figure out her identity.

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean, I just don't feel like we could

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<v Speaker 1>rule out that she is from the area because some

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<v Speaker 1>of the states were so close by, and she could

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<v Speaker 1>have been a recent transplant to Missouri and they wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>have likely been able to tell that from the testing.

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<v Speaker 1>If it was just the last six months or year

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<v Speaker 1>of her life, they would have known where she grew up.

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<v Speaker 1>And like the foundation of that, I would think not

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<v Speaker 1>maybe the last few months, but it is possible if

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<v Speaker 1>somebody drove across state lines in order to dispose of

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<v Speaker 1>a body. There's just a lot of possibilities here. I

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<v Speaker 1>just don't think that we can discount it likely say

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<v Speaker 1>that she wasn't born there, But to say that she

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<v Speaker 1>didn't live there is difficult because there is a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of scenarios where she may have been from there, like

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<v Speaker 1>the Boy in the box. If the parents were abusive

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<v Speaker 1>and they kept her inside and she wasn't allowed to

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<v Speaker 1>interact with other people, then people may not even know

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<v Speaker 1>that she was there.

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<v Speaker 2>That definitely would make sense. And unlike the boy in

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<v Speaker 2>the box whose face was plastered everywhere, no one knows

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<v Speaker 2>what Hope looked like, so someone could have seen her

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<v Speaker 2>and just not put two and two together. But as

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to talk about, I think there's a decent

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<v Speaker 2>chance that whoever left her body there was familiar enough

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<v Speaker 2>with the neighborhood where it was found, because they knew

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<v Speaker 2>to find this dilapidated apartment building. So it could be

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<v Speaker 2>a scenario where she wasn't born born in Missouri, but

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<v Speaker 2>she was born elsewhere to a mother who was single,

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe she found a boyfriend or something in Saint

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<v Speaker 2>Louis and they moved there a short time before she

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<v Speaker 2>was murdered, and this man turned out to be abusive

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<v Speaker 2>and wound up killing her, And for whatever reason, Hope's

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<v Speaker 2>mother is just too scared to come forward and has

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<v Speaker 2>remained silent all this time, And just because she only

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<v Speaker 2>lived in Saint Louis for a brief period of time

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<v Speaker 2>that they can't pick that up on the stable isotope

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<v Speaker 2>analysis because she was originally born.

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<v Speaker 1>Elsewhere, and even that fact that like, okay, well, this

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<v Speaker 1>person was likely familiar with the area, I think that

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<v Speaker 1>the probability is high that yes, that is true. But

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<v Speaker 1>I also think that there's a possibility that that person

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<v Speaker 1>could have approached somebody in this very economically depressed area,

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<v Speaker 1>like maybe not outside this building and said, hey, I

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<v Speaker 1>need you to list off locations of empty buildings, of

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<v Speaker 1>buildings that are dilapidated here. I'll give you fifty bucks.

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<v Speaker 1>And I bet you there's plenty of people on that

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<v Speaker 1>street who would go, oh, yeah, like there is building

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<v Speaker 1>a building B, building C, building D, and give them

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<v Speaker 1>the geographical locations and collect their fifty bucks. And no

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<v Speaker 1>one's ever going to know that that happened or that

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<v Speaker 1>it was attached to this case exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And even if that person heard about that a body

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<v Speaker 2>was founded there, I don't think living in that environment,

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to come forward and say, by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>some guy paybe fifty bucks to recommend a building to

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<v Speaker 2>dispose of a body. They're going to stay silent about that.

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<v Speaker 2>And while we're on the topic of similar crimes, there

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<v Speaker 2>was a promising lead on December the twenty sixth, nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty three, when hunters discovered the skull and postcranial skeleton

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<v Speaker 2>of an African American girl in the woods behind a

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<v Speaker 2>rest area alongside Interstate ninety five in Northampton County, North Carolina.

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<v Speaker 2>While the victim's cause of death cannot be established, she

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<v Speaker 2>did have signs of trauma to her face to indicate

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<v Speaker 2>possible abuse. There was initial speculation that the skull may

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<v Speaker 2>have been Precious Hopes missing head, but this possibility was

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<v Speaker 2>ruled out. The Northampton County Jane Doe was an entirely

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<v Speaker 2>different victim, and to this day she remains unidentified. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>there's nothing to conclusively prove that the two cases are connected.

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<v Speaker 2>I do find it interesting that North Carolina was listed

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<v Speaker 2>as one of the possible states where Hope had lived, so,

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<v Speaker 2>for all we know, perhaps Hope's murderer was also responsible

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<v Speaker 2>for the death of the Northampton County Jane Doe, though

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<v Speaker 2>that's all just speculation. Even if Hope did not live

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<v Speaker 2>in Saint Louis, there is evidence to suggest that her

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<v Speaker 2>killer was familiar with the area. The abandoned apartment building

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<v Speaker 2>where her body was dumped does not seem to be

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<v Speaker 2>one of those locations which you will find by pure chance.

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<v Speaker 2>Before the Are Precious Hope Revisited documentary was released, many

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<v Speaker 2>people were under the impression that the entire neighborhood was

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<v Speaker 2>a dilapidated area which was filled with vacant buildings, but

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<v Speaker 2>it turns out that it was actually a pretty busy

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<v Speaker 2>and active location with a number of residents living there

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<v Speaker 2>at that time, so I'm not sure if the perpetrator

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<v Speaker 2>would have gone there looking for a place to dispose

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<v Speaker 2>of a body unless they already knew that the building

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<v Speaker 2>at fifty six thirty five Clemens Avenue would be abandoned.

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<v Speaker 2>Since the front entrance was completely boarded up, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>good chance they were aware that they could still enter

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<v Speaker 2>the building's basement through the back entrance. Given how dark

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<v Speaker 2>this basement was, they probably figured it would be a

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<v Speaker 2>long time before Hope's body would be found, if it

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<v Speaker 2>was even found at all, and it may have been

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<v Speaker 2>just pure luck that two teens decided to enter that

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<v Speaker 2>basement and light up a cigarette only a few days

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<v Speaker 2>after Hope was left there. During that time period, it

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<v Speaker 2>was not uncommon for the janitors who worked at these

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<v Speaker 2>apartment buildings to live in the basements, but investigators apparently

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00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:38.720
<v Speaker 2>explored that angle and did not find any records of

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<v Speaker 2>former janitors from that particular building who stood out as

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<v Speaker 2>potential suspects.

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<v Speaker 1>It was so lucky that those boys decided to go

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<v Speaker 1>in there and that they found Little Hope's body, because

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00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:55.240
<v Speaker 1>otherwise she could have been there forever until that building.

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<v Speaker 1>That building could have been torn down and nobody would

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<v Speaker 1>have ever known she was there. If you're taking down

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<v Speaker 1>a building or rebuilding, a body of a child could

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00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:08.000
<v Speaker 1>easily get lost in the shuffle, especially if she decomposed

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00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.559
<v Speaker 1>fully and is simply just bones at that time. So

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00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.720
<v Speaker 1>it's scary to think of the thought that they don't

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00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:19.240
<v Speaker 1>come in and she just languishes there in this purgatory

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<v Speaker 1>of sorts where nobody knows where she is, or like

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<v Speaker 1>authorities can't find her, nobody's looking for her. It doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>seem like any families put on any missing person's flyers

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<v Speaker 1>or anything like that. So this little girl would just

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00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.480
<v Speaker 1>be lost to time. But instead she was discovered. So

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's a miracle there.

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<v Speaker 2>It's true, yeah, because this has become one of the

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00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.159
<v Speaker 2>more famous cases involving unidentified decendents of the past forty years.

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<v Speaker 2>But those teens don't find her and the building is

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<v Speaker 2>torn down, then she is just completely lost to history.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think there's a good chance they miss finding

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<v Speaker 2>her body. I know that in our last episode, we

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<v Speaker 2>made a comparison to that season of The Wire where

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of murder victims are hid into appetated buildings

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00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:03.080
<v Speaker 2>because they think no one's going to look for them there,

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<v Speaker 2>And it makes you wonder how often that does happen

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00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.080
<v Speaker 2>where victims are just put in these abandoned places where

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00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:11.639
<v Speaker 2>no one's going to be searching, and maybe some of

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00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:15.559
<v Speaker 2>the time they're never found at all. So, getting back

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<v Speaker 2>to our precious Hope revisited, I previously mentioned that the

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00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:21.440
<v Speaker 2>documentary shared a lot of new details I didn't know

312
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:24.879
<v Speaker 2>before and clarified some misinformation which is spread about the

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00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:28.120
<v Speaker 2>case over the years. One false detail which has often

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00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:32.080
<v Speaker 2>been shared over the Internet is that Hope had spineapifita oculta,

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00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.080
<v Speaker 2>which is caused when a gap forms between the vertebrae

316
00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:38.399
<v Speaker 2>and one spinal cord. This would definitely be an important

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00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.320
<v Speaker 2>detail to help match Hope to any missing children out there,

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00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:44.360
<v Speaker 2>but according to the filmmakers, there is no mention of

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<v Speaker 2>spina biffita oculta in the original autopsy report or any

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00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.840
<v Speaker 2>documentation related to the case, so they have no idea

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00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.399
<v Speaker 2>how this false rumor got started in the first place.

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00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:59.080
<v Speaker 2>The filmmakers arranged for doctor Joy Carter and independent forensic

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00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:03.399
<v Speaker 2>pathology consultant to perform an analysis of Hope's autopsy, and

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00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.559
<v Speaker 2>she also confirmed some details. It was obviously difficult to

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00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:10.720
<v Speaker 2>estimate Hope's exact height since her head was missing, but

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00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:13.720
<v Speaker 2>she's always been listed as being between approximately four foot

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<v Speaker 2>ten and five foot four. Five foot four seems pretty

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00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:19.799
<v Speaker 2>tall for a girl believed to be between eight and

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00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.839
<v Speaker 2>eleven years old, but doctor Carter pointed out that it

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00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.880
<v Speaker 2>wasn't clear if Hope's height was measured from her heel

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00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.680
<v Speaker 2>or her toes. Measuring from the heel is generally considered

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00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:31.799
<v Speaker 2>to be the most accurate method, and if it had

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00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.480
<v Speaker 2>been done this way, Hope's maximum height would have been

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00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:37.759
<v Speaker 2>listed as five feet rather than five foot four, and

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00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.960
<v Speaker 2>five feet is an average height for some on her age.

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00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:43.680
<v Speaker 2>One detail which has been the source of some confusion

337
00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.799
<v Speaker 2>was the discovery of a Caucasian male pubic hair on

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00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:50.319
<v Speaker 2>Hope's right thigh, as is unclear whether it actually belonged

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00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:53.920
<v Speaker 2>to her killer. If you search online discussions about this case,

340
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.759
<v Speaker 2>you'll often find WTF reactions to the suggestion that the

341
00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:00.799
<v Speaker 2>pubic hare may belong to a police office, and Jeweles

342
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:02.599
<v Speaker 2>gave one of them as we were recording this and

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00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.599
<v Speaker 2>mentioned it in Part one, but that doesn't necessarily mean

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00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.599
<v Speaker 2>that a cop removed his pants at the crime scene.

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00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:10.960
<v Speaker 2>There are a number of innocent explanations for how a

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00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:13.960
<v Speaker 2>pubic hair could have wound up there. For example, if

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00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:16.640
<v Speaker 2>a police officer went to the bathroom shortly before he

348
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:19.000
<v Speaker 2>arrived at the scene, one of the hairs could have

349
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:22.440
<v Speaker 2>transferred to the exterior of his pants before it subsequently

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00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.079
<v Speaker 2>fell off on the Hope's body. Another potential explanation is

351
00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:29.799
<v Speaker 2>that the city of Saint Louis apparently reused body bags

352
00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.680
<v Speaker 2>back then, so it's possible that the pubic hair may

353
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.400
<v Speaker 2>have belonged to a previous occupant of the body bag

354
00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:39.079
<v Speaker 2>used to transport Hope. Whatever the case, hairs can transfer

355
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.559
<v Speaker 2>around for a number of different reasons, and since there

356
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:44.200
<v Speaker 2>wasn't any usable DNA on the hair to begin with,

357
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.400
<v Speaker 2>it's not like it's ever going to be used as

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00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:48.160
<v Speaker 2>evidence to identify the killer.

359
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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it's obvious that they're not going to

360
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:54.000
<v Speaker 1>be able to tie it to the killer if they

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<v Speaker 1>don't have the DNA on that hair. I don't think

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00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.680
<v Speaker 1>that they can say if they got there innocently or not,

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00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.240
<v Speaker 1>because they just don't have that information. And we went

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00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.440
<v Speaker 1>over that in Part one. I think it's a little

365
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.000
<v Speaker 1>bit weird that they're dismissing it as being tied to

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00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.119
<v Speaker 1>the case, when truly they just don't know one way

367
00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.400
<v Speaker 1>or the other. But yet they seem to dismiss the evidence,

368
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.200
<v Speaker 1>and I really want to know why.

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<v Speaker 2>And we've actually seen in recent years where evidence that

370
00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.079
<v Speaker 2>was previously had no traces of DNA on it has

371
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.359
<v Speaker 2>been given new, more advanced testing at more advanced labs,

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00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:28.920
<v Speaker 2>and they've been able to get DNA samples that weren't

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00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:32.480
<v Speaker 2>there before and used it to identify people or solve cases.

374
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:34.799
<v Speaker 2>So you never know if it might happen in this case.

375
00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:37.720
<v Speaker 2>If they decided to do more advanced testing on this pubicare,

376
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:40.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe they will get a DNA and find out that

377
00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:43.599
<v Speaker 2>it actually matches a convicted murderer and not a police officer.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I would like to know the last date that they

380
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:50.799
<v Speaker 1>tested this pubicare for DNA, because if it was twenty thirteen,

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00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:53.880
<v Speaker 1>twenty fourteen, or if it was back in the late

382
00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:57.400
<v Speaker 1>eighties when DNA was first coming to the forefront, it

383
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.599
<v Speaker 1>would really matter because the technology has improved moved so

384
00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:01.720
<v Speaker 1>much since then.

385
00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I've actually seen a couple of cold cases

386
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.720
<v Speaker 2>in recent years get solved because of that. Of course,

387
00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:11.599
<v Speaker 2>one of the most interesting portions of the documentary was

388
00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.079
<v Speaker 2>getting some clarification on the circumstances of how Hope's sweater

389
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and the nylon rope used to bind her hands when missing.

390
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:20.920
<v Speaker 2>If you go on redditch or any message boards and

391
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.799
<v Speaker 2>find threads under such titles as what are the all

392
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:28.440
<v Speaker 2>time worse mistakes in a police investigation, the slmpd's decision

393
00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:31.400
<v Speaker 2>to mail these items to a psychic will frequently get mentioned.

394
00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, so many people are skeptical about psychics to

395
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.400
<v Speaker 2>begin with, and question the value of the police using

396
00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:40.839
<v Speaker 2>them in investigations, but the idea of mailing key pieces

397
00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.440
<v Speaker 2>of evidence to a psychic that's living in another state

398
00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:48.200
<v Speaker 2>is pretty mind boggling. This particular psychic, Mariene Vernier, has

399
00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.440
<v Speaker 2>always proclaimed herself to be a psychic detective who has

400
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.680
<v Speaker 2>assisted with hundreds of police investigations and unsolved mysteries. Actually

401
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.359
<v Speaker 2>produced a segment about her not too long after she

402
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:02.079
<v Speaker 2>appeared on the Sightings episode about Precious Hope. You can

403
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:05.000
<v Speaker 2>actually watch this Sighting's episode on YouTube, and it chows

404
00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:08.759
<v Speaker 2>Rainier having so called psychic visions from touching the sweater

405
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:12.000
<v Speaker 2>and the rope. The whole thing comes across as pretty

406
00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.680
<v Speaker 2>silly as Rainier. A middle aged woman starts talking like

407
00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.200
<v Speaker 2>a little girl after Hope's spirit supposedly enters her body.

408
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:21.759
<v Speaker 2>I find it telling that even though there is a

409
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.200
<v Speaker 2>ton of information available about this case, almost none of

410
00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:28.720
<v Speaker 2>it discusses the so called leads that Rainier provided, such

411
00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:31.920
<v Speaker 2>as Hope's killer being a teacher who is dishonorably discharged

412
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:35.759
<v Speaker 2>from the military. Based on the description Rainier provided, A

413
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:39.039
<v Speaker 2>composite sketch of this man was created during the Sightings episode,

414
00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:41.640
<v Speaker 2>and he appears to be an African American male with

415
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:45.480
<v Speaker 2>a mustache. However, I cannot find this composite sketch anywhere

416
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.599
<v Speaker 2>when I research online, which gives me the impression that

417
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.759
<v Speaker 2>investigators do not consider any of Varnier's information to be

418
00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:54.920
<v Speaker 2>biable leads. But no matter what you think of Vernier,

419
00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:58.519
<v Speaker 2>if our precious Hope Revisited is accurate, then it is

420
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.240
<v Speaker 2>not her fault that the sweater and the rope went missing,

421
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:05.799
<v Speaker 2>as the SLMPD apparently lost the items after she returned them.

422
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:09.559
<v Speaker 2>When the filmmakers interviewed Sergeant Brian McGlynn and asked him

423
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:12.119
<v Speaker 2>to provide the receipt which proved that the items arrived

424
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.079
<v Speaker 2>at the police station. He seemed reluctant to do so,

425
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.000
<v Speaker 2>possibly to avoid implicating the officer who was responsible for

426
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.160
<v Speaker 2>losing them. I mean, regardless of whether the items were

427
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.680
<v Speaker 2>lost by Rainier or the police department, the whole situation

428
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:28.319
<v Speaker 2>does not reflect well on them. But at least some

429
00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:32.559
<v Speaker 2>additional context and clarification were provided to explain how something

430
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.319
<v Speaker 2>like this could have happened to begin with. If the

431
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.200
<v Speaker 2>items were returned, it would not surprise me at all

432
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.839
<v Speaker 2>if they were misfiled and are currently sitting in an

433
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.920
<v Speaker 2>evidence room somewhere inside the wrong box. I don't get

434
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:47.640
<v Speaker 2>the impression that any traces of the killer's DNA were

435
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.359
<v Speaker 2>found on the evidence, but these items went missing in

436
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.839
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety four, and forensics have advanced so much since then,

437
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>so it's possible that new DNA testing could turn up

438
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:59.640
<v Speaker 2>something if the sweater or the rope are ever found.

439
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:04.519
<v Speaker 1>Such a major oversight in this case, and we can't

440
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:07.880
<v Speaker 1>emphasize that enough. The fact that they mailed this evidence

441
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.440
<v Speaker 1>to Rainier, Okay, like that was clearly something that was

442
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:13.720
<v Speaker 1>like a nineteen eighties type of a thing to do

443
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:15.720
<v Speaker 1>with a crime to mail it to a psychic for

444
00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:19.559
<v Speaker 1>some type of program sightings. I get that everything had

445
00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:22.359
<v Speaker 1>that like paranormal twist with the entertainment of it all,

446
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.920
<v Speaker 1>but to then blame Rainier when she clearly, it seems,

447
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.319
<v Speaker 1>if we're to trust the documentary, did send these items back.

448
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:32.640
<v Speaker 1>And I think you're right. I think it's possible that

449
00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:36.119
<v Speaker 1>those items could be sitting in some evidence room somewhere

450
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:40.200
<v Speaker 1>and they're improperly filed, or they're filed under something else.

451
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:42.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's a possibility that they were just lost

452
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:46.480
<v Speaker 1>or destroyed, but I think there's definitely a possibility that

453
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:50.519
<v Speaker 1>somewhere those items are just waiting to be discovered and

454
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:51.839
<v Speaker 1>tied back to this case.

455
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:54.759
<v Speaker 2>It would be a nice lucky break if someone is

456
00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:57.559
<v Speaker 2>searching for evidence from another case and opens the box

457
00:23:57.599 --> 00:23:59.839
<v Speaker 2>and says, hey, what's the sweater in this rope doing,

458
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:02.960
<v Speaker 2>and then by pure chance, they find the missing evidence

459
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.240
<v Speaker 2>from this case. But I would like that to happen,

460
00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:08.039
<v Speaker 2>considering that it could hold the key to identifying hope,

461
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.240
<v Speaker 2>and considering that a miracle almost occurred when the two

462
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:13.839
<v Speaker 2>teens founder in that abandoned building, I can kind of

463
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:16.039
<v Speaker 2>hold out hope that something like this might happen here.

464
00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:19.759
<v Speaker 1>I'll be very interested if in time they do solve

465
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:23.559
<v Speaker 1>the case, or if Hope gets her identity back to

466
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:27.319
<v Speaker 1>see if the composite sketch that Rainier had done with

467
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the African American male with the mustache and him being

468
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:33.480
<v Speaker 1>ex and military would line up with any of her

469
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:34.400
<v Speaker 1>family members.

470
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.279
<v Speaker 2>That is true. I mean, like I said, I've only

471
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:39.400
<v Speaker 2>seen it on the Sightings episode. I have not seen

472
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:42.799
<v Speaker 2>the composite sketch anywhere onlines, which makes me think that

473
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:46.079
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement doesn't put much stock into it. And if

474
00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:49.119
<v Speaker 2>you watch any of Mariene Rainier's like so called touch

475
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:51.720
<v Speaker 2>thing where she's touching items and the spirit of the

476
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:54.440
<v Speaker 2>victim is going inside of her, it is pretty silly

477
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.359
<v Speaker 2>and unintentionally funny. So I don't put much stock into it.

478
00:24:57.400 --> 00:24:59.279
<v Speaker 2>But if she turns out to be right, that would

479
00:24:59.319 --> 00:24:59.640
<v Speaker 2>be great.

480
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Well. I think it's pretty hard to take serious an

481
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:05.519
<v Speaker 1>adult woman who's then taking on the persona of a

482
00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:08.599
<v Speaker 1>little girl and starts talking in that little girl's voice

483
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:11.480
<v Speaker 1>like it's a very serious matter. But it's hard not

484
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:13.920
<v Speaker 1>to find something like that slightly humorous.

485
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.039
<v Speaker 2>It is, Yes, it's kind of pretty much a product

486
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:18.839
<v Speaker 2>of its time, because those type of things were on

487
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.599
<v Speaker 2>TV all the time during the nineteen nineties, but in

488
00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:25.720
<v Speaker 2>today's day and age, they do not pass muster. So

489
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:28.599
<v Speaker 2>one curious detail about the sweater is is that it

490
00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:31.279
<v Speaker 2>appeared to be brand new and it had its tag removed.

491
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:34.079
<v Speaker 2>You might assume that the perpetrator went to the trouble

492
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:36.079
<v Speaker 2>of removing the tag in order to make it more

493
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:39.400
<v Speaker 2>difficult to trace where it was purchased. But why bother

494
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:42.400
<v Speaker 2>leaving the sweater on Hope's body to begin with, especially

495
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:46.400
<v Speaker 2>since she was not wearing any other clothing. During the documentary,

496
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:48.720
<v Speaker 2>the director managed to find a sweater that was pretty

497
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.720
<v Speaker 2>much identical to the one that Hope wore and confirmed

498
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:54.200
<v Speaker 2>that it was being sold in stores in Saint Louis

499
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.240
<v Speaker 2>back in nineteen eighty three. Of course, that doesn't prove

500
00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.680
<v Speaker 2>the sweater was originally purchased in Saint Louis, but it

501
00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.039
<v Speaker 2>should that it's a possibility. In spite of the brutal

502
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:05.240
<v Speaker 2>nature of Hope's murder and the fact that she was

503
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:08.640
<v Speaker 2>sexually assaulted, she appeared to have been fairly well cared

504
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:11.200
<v Speaker 2>for prior to her death, and there ren signs that

505
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.400
<v Speaker 2>she was the victim of long term abuse, So if

506
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:17.240
<v Speaker 2>she was murdered by a parent or a caregiver, how

507
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.519
<v Speaker 2>did things reach the point where they decided to do

508
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.880
<v Speaker 2>this to her. There is no shortage of potential theories,

509
00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:26.119
<v Speaker 2>such as Hope being a victim of human trafficking. If

510
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:28.640
<v Speaker 2>she was given away or sold by her family to

511
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.640
<v Speaker 2>the person who eventually killed her, that would explain why

512
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.599
<v Speaker 2>no one has ever come forward to identify her. But

513
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:37.400
<v Speaker 2>a couple of deceased serial killers have also been looked

514
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.359
<v Speaker 2>at as potential suspects. One of the most tomulant cells

515
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:44.759
<v Speaker 2>who was executed in Texas in April of twenty fourteen

516
00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:47.519
<v Speaker 2>for the murder of a thirteen year old girl, but

517
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:50.200
<v Speaker 2>the authorities believe he was responsible for killing at least

518
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:54.200
<v Speaker 2>twenty two people during his lifetime. Sales committed murders in

519
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.319
<v Speaker 2>a number of different states, and while he was never

520
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:59.799
<v Speaker 2>officially charged with the following crime, he was suspected to

521
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:02.559
<v Speaker 2>be responsible for the murders of a woman named Colleen

522
00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:05.559
<v Speaker 2>Gill and her four year old daughter, Tiffany Gil, who

523
00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:08.039
<v Speaker 2>are both beaten to death with a blunt object inside

524
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:10.720
<v Speaker 2>their home in Saint Louis on July the thirty first

525
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.200
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty three. The Gill residence was only a few

526
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:17.359
<v Speaker 2>blocks away from the apartment building where Hope's body was found,

527
00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:20.759
<v Speaker 2>and given the timeframe, investigators looked at Seals as a

528
00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:24.400
<v Speaker 2>potential suspect in or murder as well. He was interviewed

529
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:27.200
<v Speaker 2>by detectives on death Row, but they were ultimately inclined

530
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:29.559
<v Speaker 2>to believe that he wasn't involved in Hope's death.

531
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:34.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, those were people close to him, and it

532
00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.160
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't appear as though Hope would have been somebody who

533
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.880
<v Speaker 1>was close or a relative, because she wasn't reported missing

534
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.559
<v Speaker 1>by anybody else. So I think there are some differences

535
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.359
<v Speaker 1>there with the victimology when you've got victims who are

536
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.720
<v Speaker 1>close to you, rather than him just predating on some

537
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.880
<v Speaker 1>girl and grabbing her off the street, if that's what

538
00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:58.599
<v Speaker 1>we're to believe that happened. I think it's an interesting

539
00:27:58.599 --> 00:28:00.799
<v Speaker 1>thing about the sweater. I don't know necessarily think that,

540
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.039
<v Speaker 1>like you cut off a tag because you don't want

541
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:05.720
<v Speaker 1>that person to be identified. I think in life it's

542
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:09.759
<v Speaker 1>very possible that you could have had just sensitivity issues,

543
00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:12.279
<v Speaker 1>like I have sensitivity issues. If there's like a scratchy

544
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:14.799
<v Speaker 1>tag or things that like, aren't the right fabric? It

545
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.279
<v Speaker 1>will drive me crazy. And I know that is common

546
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.440
<v Speaker 1>with certain people with sensory processing disorders or autism spectrum disorder,

547
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.559
<v Speaker 1>or it can be something that just anybody can deal with,

548
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:29.039
<v Speaker 1>Right if you've got sensitive skin, you don't like it's

549
00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:32.200
<v Speaker 1>itchy tag. I get that, And I think, yeah, we

550
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:34.559
<v Speaker 1>could think it's like any of those cases where we

551
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:37.839
<v Speaker 1>think there's a spy, right, like the Summerton man or

552
00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.519
<v Speaker 1>what they saw a woman, and we then go like,

553
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.160
<v Speaker 1>there's no tags on their clothes, they must be a spy.

554
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:45.680
<v Speaker 1>But I think there's just a likelihood that, like, maybe

555
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.640
<v Speaker 1>this person didn't enjoy the feeling of scratchy fabric against

556
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:49.079
<v Speaker 1>their skin.

557
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I always seen that on online discussions about unidentified

558
00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:55.920
<v Speaker 2>deceiteds who don't have tags in their clothing. And obviously

559
00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:58.400
<v Speaker 2>the Summerton man is the most famous example of this,

560
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.960
<v Speaker 2>and he was also identified in twenty twenty two, and

561
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.400
<v Speaker 2>it turns out he's just a regular guy who seemed

562
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:06.680
<v Speaker 2>to have some mental health issues, but nothing in his

563
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:09.319
<v Speaker 2>background to suggest he was a spy. But a lot

564
00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:11.519
<v Speaker 2>of people in these online discussions say the same thing

565
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:13.599
<v Speaker 2>as you, saying that when I buy new clothing. I

566
00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:16.400
<v Speaker 2>always removed the tags because I just find it uncomfortable

567
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:18.519
<v Speaker 2>and itchy. So if I was found dead in a

568
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:20.960
<v Speaker 2>public place somewhere, I can only imagine what people would

569
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:24.680
<v Speaker 2>speculate about my background. But in actuality, most of the time,

570
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:26.519
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing unusual about it at all.

571
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can see how if you're not somebody who's

572
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:32.519
<v Speaker 1>affected by that, how you could look at an individual

573
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:35.839
<v Speaker 1>having no tags and think that's like atypical or weird

574
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:37.720
<v Speaker 1>in some type of a way. But when you have

575
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:40.759
<v Speaker 1>the perspective of being somebody who does that, it's like, oh, well,

576
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:43.279
<v Speaker 1>I think there's a myriad of reasons that that could

577
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:44.839
<v Speaker 1>happen to a little girl's clothing.

578
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:47.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like Hope could have just been bought it for

579
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Christmas or something and just found the tag to be uncomfortable,

580
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:53.480
<v Speaker 2>so her parents removed it, And that's there's nothing more

581
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:58.480
<v Speaker 2>nefarious than that. That's just the most logical explanation. So

582
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:01.480
<v Speaker 2>that now brings us to child murderer Vernon Brown, who

583
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:04.519
<v Speaker 2>was definitely a vile individual, and it's not hard to

584
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:08.160
<v Speaker 2>believe he would be capable of something like this. Officially,

585
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Brown has been linked to three murders two of them

586
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:14.240
<v Speaker 2>involving victims who are around Hope's age, and much like Hope,

587
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.200
<v Speaker 2>they were strangled to death. When Brown was charged with

588
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:19.640
<v Speaker 2>murder in nineteen eighty six, he was living only a

589
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.519
<v Speaker 2>few miles away from the building where Hope was discovered.

590
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.480
<v Speaker 2>But one thing which isn't entirely clear to me are

591
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Brown's whereabouts in February of nineteen eighty three. We know

592
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.680
<v Speaker 2>that he moved to Saint Louis and changed his name

593
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:34.640
<v Speaker 2>after a wart was issued for his arrest in Indianapolis,

594
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:38.200
<v Speaker 2>but I don't know when exactly this took place. It

595
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:40.200
<v Speaker 2>was theorized that Hope could have been the daughter of

596
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.920
<v Speaker 2>one of Brown's girlfriends, and he frightened this woman into

597
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:46.319
<v Speaker 2>staying silent after he killed her. We know that Brown

598
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:48.799
<v Speaker 2>was living with Kathy Moore and her three sons when

599
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:51.480
<v Speaker 2>he murdered Janet Perkins, but I'm not sure if they

600
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:54.880
<v Speaker 2>were together in nineteen eighty three. I suppose one of

601
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:57.319
<v Speaker 2>the things which might make me suspect Brown is that

602
00:30:57.359 --> 00:30:59.640
<v Speaker 2>when he was questioned about Hope's murder prior to his

603
00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:04.000
<v Speaker 2>exit acution, he never actually denied it. He only replied, quote,

604
00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:06.799
<v Speaker 2>I've got nothing to say to you. But even when

605
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:09.119
<v Speaker 2>they reach the point where they have nothing left to lose,

606
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:11.720
<v Speaker 2>it is par for the course for condemned murderers to

607
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.359
<v Speaker 2>be untruthful about their involvement or non involvement in other

608
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.279
<v Speaker 2>unsolved crimes because they still love to keep using the

609
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:21.559
<v Speaker 2>opportunity to toy with people. I would certainly like to

610
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:24.960
<v Speaker 2>believe that Brown was Hope's killer, because justice was served

611
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:27.039
<v Speaker 2>with him and he is no longer around to harm

612
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:30.119
<v Speaker 2>anyone else. However, I should note that our precious Hope

613
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Revisited does not make any mention of Vernon Brown at all,

614
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.000
<v Speaker 2>which makes me wonder if investigators no longer consider him

615
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:39.559
<v Speaker 2>to be a promising suspect, or if he's been ruled

616
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:43.319
<v Speaker 2>out altogether. One reason I'm inclined to believe that Brown

617
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:46.559
<v Speaker 2>is not the perpetrator is because of the circumstances of

618
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.960
<v Speaker 2>how he murdered Janet Perkins. He really did not make

619
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:53.319
<v Speaker 2>much effort to conceal that particular crime at all, as

620
00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:55.960
<v Speaker 2>he simply placed her body in two trash bags and

621
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.920
<v Speaker 2>tossed her in a dumpster in the alley behind his residence,

622
00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:01.640
<v Speaker 2>so it really didn't take much for police to solve

623
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.440
<v Speaker 2>the case. And make an arrest after she was found.

624
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Compare that to the circumstances of how Hope was murdered

625
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.599
<v Speaker 2>as the killer went to the trouble of removing her

626
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:14.039
<v Speaker 2>head for vent identification and carrying her body into the

627
00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:17.839
<v Speaker 2>basement of an abandoned building. I just can't reconcile Brown

628
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:20.319
<v Speaker 2>going to the trouble of doing all that and then

629
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:23.000
<v Speaker 2>being so lazy when covering up the murder of another

630
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:27.160
<v Speaker 2>girl three years later. So unless conclusive evidence ever surfaces

631
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.039
<v Speaker 2>to link Brown to Hope's case, I'm inclined to believe

632
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:31.119
<v Speaker 2>he was not or killer.

633
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:35.480
<v Speaker 1>I agree, and I think it's interesting with the decapitation.

634
00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.279
<v Speaker 1>It could either be one of two things. I think

635
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:42.200
<v Speaker 1>the most likely explanation in most cases is they're trying

636
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.839
<v Speaker 1>to obscure an identification, but it also could be some

637
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.960
<v Speaker 1>perverse part of the process that the killer enjoys and

638
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.319
<v Speaker 1>it's part of their mo is the decapitation that they

639
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:56.319
<v Speaker 1>might like for any variety of reasons. But I just

640
00:32:56.759 --> 00:33:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Vernon Brown is so horrible. He's one of the words

641
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:04.319
<v Speaker 1>that I've heard of in any case. Hands down, his

642
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:08.200
<v Speaker 1>actions were monstrous, and he was just capable of the

643
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:12.039
<v Speaker 1>most egregious acts against people that were supposed to trust him,

644
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:16.599
<v Speaker 1>like his partner's three boys, and that just really stuck

645
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:19.680
<v Speaker 1>with me. Anyone that he could predate on, he would,

646
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:24.200
<v Speaker 1>And so it's really easy to associate him with another

647
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:28.680
<v Speaker 1>awful crime, which is Little Hope being found without her head.

648
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:32.160
<v Speaker 1>And do I think that he didn't know? Do I

649
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:35.079
<v Speaker 1>think justice was served there, even though we talked about

650
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:37.720
<v Speaker 1>how neither of us really believe in the death penalty,

651
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.799
<v Speaker 1>but we're not shedding tears over Vernon Brown. So there

652
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:44.920
<v Speaker 1>was justice in those cases for the people who are

653
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.680
<v Speaker 1>victimized by him. But I just I don't get the

654
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:51.720
<v Speaker 1>gut feeling that he is the perpetrator in Little Hope's case.

655
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And like I said, because he was not mentioned

656
00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:57.720
<v Speaker 2>in the documentary, it makes me wonder if they've turned

657
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.440
<v Speaker 2>up new information which rules him out because he was

658
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:04.200
<v Speaker 2>originally from Indianapolis, and I don't know the exact time

659
00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:06.599
<v Speaker 2>that he moved to Saint Louis to live under a

660
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.079
<v Speaker 2>false name. So they were able to turn up evidence

661
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:11.559
<v Speaker 2>which shows that he was still in Indianapolis in February

662
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:14.280
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen eighty three, then that positively rules him out

663
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:17.719
<v Speaker 2>as a suspect in this case, but of course figuring

664
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:20.280
<v Speaker 2>out who murdered Hope will probably require her to be

665
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:23.559
<v Speaker 2>identified first, so it was good to learn that CCMORE

666
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:28.440
<v Speaker 2>and Parabondanolobs are currently working on this case. As you recall,

667
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:31.360
<v Speaker 2>a genetic match was found between Hope and the DNA

668
00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.719
<v Speaker 2>for two individuals who were born around one hundred years ago,

669
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.559
<v Speaker 2>and when More attempted to contact the granddaughter of one

670
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:40.639
<v Speaker 2>of these people, she refused to cooperate and pulled a

671
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:44.800
<v Speaker 2>relative's DNA from the gen match database. On the surface,

672
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.199
<v Speaker 2>this might look incredibly suspicious, as if this woman knows

673
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.159
<v Speaker 2>exactly what happened to precious Hope and does not want

674
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:54.599
<v Speaker 2>their family's dark secret coming out. But that may not

675
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:57.559
<v Speaker 2>necessarily be the case, as you have to remember that

676
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:00.360
<v Speaker 2>most people out there are not true crime fans acts

677
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.880
<v Speaker 2>like us, and do not have a devout interest in

678
00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:06.880
<v Speaker 2>cold cases and using genetic genealogy to solve them. So

679
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:09.320
<v Speaker 2>just imagine if you were someone who didn't follow this

680
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:12.039
<v Speaker 2>stuff and then suddenly get a phone call informing you

681
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:15.199
<v Speaker 2>that law enforcement is hoping to use your relatives DNA

682
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:18.880
<v Speaker 2>to help assist them with a cold case investigation. You

683
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:21.760
<v Speaker 2>can understand why some people might be taken aback by that,

684
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:25.199
<v Speaker 2>particularly if they have a natural distrust of law enforcement.

685
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.920
<v Speaker 2>So even if this woman had no knowledge of Precious Hope,

686
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.960
<v Speaker 2>she may become paranoid over the idea of a relative's

687
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:35.599
<v Speaker 2>DNA being so accessible. For all we know, the person

688
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:37.679
<v Speaker 2>who was a genetic match to Hope may have been

689
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.400
<v Speaker 2>some very distant relative who never even knew of the

690
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:41.320
<v Speaker 2>girl's existence.

691
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:44.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot of different

692
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:49.199
<v Speaker 1>reasons why this woman shut this down and was like, Okay,

693
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to remove this person's DNA. But I also

694
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:56.199
<v Speaker 1>thought the jedmatch was the ancestry dot com or twenty

695
00:35:56.199 --> 00:36:00.039
<v Speaker 1>three and meters. It's specifically there isn't it for the

696
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:02.760
<v Speaker 1>purpose of putting your You choose to put your DNA

697
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:06.360
<v Speaker 1>on there. The purpose is to potentially solve crimes. Is that?

698
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:07.599
<v Speaker 1>Is that my understanding?

699
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm just gonna double check if this started before

700
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:13.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty eighteen, because I can't remember if this was around

701
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:17.000
<v Speaker 2>before they were using it for cold cases. Oh no,

702
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:19.719
<v Speaker 2>it was actually started in twenty ten, which was a

703
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.000
<v Speaker 2>long time before they were using it in law enforcement investigations.

704
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.360
<v Speaker 2>So I think some of the people at first who

705
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:27.599
<v Speaker 2>put their DNA in there had no idea that it

706
00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:30.480
<v Speaker 2>was going to become a tool to help solve cold

707
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:33.000
<v Speaker 2>cases and be used by law enforcement. So I can

708
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.880
<v Speaker 2>understand maybe if just an average person has not been

709
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:39.079
<v Speaker 2>following what's been happening in true crime, and they uploaded

710
00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:41.519
<v Speaker 2>their DNA, say back in twenty ten, or one of

711
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:44.559
<v Speaker 2>the relatives uploaded their DNA, they might be taken aback

712
00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:46.880
<v Speaker 2>if they suddenly receive a phone call saying that, hey,

713
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:49.679
<v Speaker 2>a DNA of a relative of yours is link to

714
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:51.960
<v Speaker 2>the murder of this girl from Saint Louis in nineteen

715
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:54.639
<v Speaker 2>eighty three. So that kind of makes it more understandable

716
00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:57.199
<v Speaker 2>if you originally put your DNA in there with no

717
00:36:57.320 --> 00:36:59.360
<v Speaker 2>idea how it was eventually going to be used.

718
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.719
<v Speaker 1>What would have been the person's initial objective? Was it

719
00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:05.239
<v Speaker 1>like connecting family members? What was it for?

720
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:08.199
<v Speaker 2>I think it was. Let me just double check here.

721
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:11.920
<v Speaker 2>I always assumed it was something very similar to ancestry

722
00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:14.920
<v Speaker 2>dot com. No, it looks like it was mostly used

723
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.239
<v Speaker 2>for the purposes of family trees and stuff like that,

724
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 2>just trying to match up DNA with relatives to learn

725
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.639
<v Speaker 2>your family history or your ancestry or something. Okay, So yeah,

726
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:26.519
<v Speaker 2>I can understand people submitting it, and for what I

727
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:29.360
<v Speaker 2>can tell, Like, would the woman who was phone submitted

728
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:31.719
<v Speaker 2>it herself? But would it only been a relative. I

729
00:37:31.719 --> 00:37:33.760
<v Speaker 2>guess it was only a relative who submitted it. So

730
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.400
<v Speaker 2>I guess if the woman didn't submit it and had

731
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.519
<v Speaker 2>no idea what these websites were for and was just

732
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:40.920
<v Speaker 2>told it's a genetic match to you, then she would

733
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:41.800
<v Speaker 2>have been taken aback.

734
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:44.679
<v Speaker 1>Perhaps they almost made it sound like she was the

735
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.920
<v Speaker 1>one who submitted it because she they said that she

736
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:51.000
<v Speaker 1>then removed her relatives DNA. But I guess if it

737
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:54.400
<v Speaker 1>was another family member, then maybe she found out who

738
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:57.440
<v Speaker 1>submitted the DNA and got them to remove it. I

739
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.480
<v Speaker 1>guess either option is possible, But I guess with that

740
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.559
<v Speaker 1>contextual clue, it gives us a little bit more understanding

741
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:06.639
<v Speaker 1>into what could have been her frame of mind when

742
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:08.559
<v Speaker 1>she received that phone call and it was like a

743
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:11.920
<v Speaker 1>WTF moment. And I can understand if you don't have

744
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:14.840
<v Speaker 1>a trust in law enforcement, you're not up on true crime,

745
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:17.199
<v Speaker 1>you think this is none of my business. I want

746
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:19.440
<v Speaker 1>to stay out of this. I don't want to implicate

747
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.119
<v Speaker 1>anybody in my family and have to deal with the

748
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.760
<v Speaker 1>ramifications of that, So just don't even involve me. I

749
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:29.559
<v Speaker 1>can understand that given what the initial objective was and

750
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.320
<v Speaker 1>how this is a completely different thing.

751
00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:34.639
<v Speaker 2>And as a side note, I met a gentleman at

752
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:38.599
<v Speaker 2>advocacy con that I attended Indianapolis several weeks ago, who

753
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:42.119
<v Speaker 2>his brother went missing in nineteen eighty and for completely

754
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:45.880
<v Speaker 2>unrelated reasons back in twenty fourteen, he decided to submit

755
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:49.480
<v Speaker 2>his DNA to some ancestry website, just figuring that it

756
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.079
<v Speaker 2>would be used to like find other relatives or connect

757
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:54.559
<v Speaker 2>his family tree, and he had no inkling that it

758
00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:56.880
<v Speaker 2>was going to be used in a law enforcement investigation.

759
00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:59.719
<v Speaker 2>And he claimed in twenty twenty three he received a

760
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.880
<v Speaker 2>fault call where they just suddenly told him out of

761
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.519
<v Speaker 2>the blue, did you have a brother go missing back

762
00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:07.159
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty because we have just linked your DNA

763
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:09.920
<v Speaker 2>to a dead body that was found in another state.

764
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:13.119
<v Speaker 2>And he was like, probably like this person where he

765
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:15.119
<v Speaker 2>submitted his DNA, and that even though we had a

766
00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:18.079
<v Speaker 2>missing relative, he had no inkling that someone was going

767
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:20.199
<v Speaker 2>to pull that DNA one day and use it to

768
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:21.679
<v Speaker 2>find out what happened to his brother.

769
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:25.079
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Well, that certainly is a circumstance where it worked

770
00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:25.840
<v Speaker 1>out for the best.

771
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:29.079
<v Speaker 2>Definitely yeah. And it was a case where he went

772
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:31.800
<v Speaker 2>missing from Chicago and was founded in the town of

773
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Ryan Lander. Wisconstant and that he died like only a

774
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.199
<v Speaker 2>few months after he went missing, But they just had

775
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:39.400
<v Speaker 2>no inkling that he was there. And it only got

776
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:44.920
<v Speaker 2>solved because of DNA and these genealogical websites. So trying

777
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.199
<v Speaker 2>to put the pieces of the puzzle together and figure

778
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:50.320
<v Speaker 2>out Hope's identity might be a long and arduous process.

779
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:53.440
<v Speaker 2>We saw a situation like that in a case involving

780
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:56.800
<v Speaker 2>an unidentified victim known as the El Dorado Jane Doe,

781
00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.840
<v Speaker 2>who was murdered in nineteen ninety one and was profiled

782
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.280
<v Speaker 2>all the way back on episode number eight of The

783
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Trail Went Cold. The El Dorado Jane Doe cannot be

784
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:09.559
<v Speaker 2>identified for three decades, but in January of twenty nineteen,

785
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:12.480
<v Speaker 2>it was announced that genetic genealogy had linked her to

786
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.519
<v Speaker 2>a second cousin who had uploaded her DNA into the

787
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:19.039
<v Speaker 2>jed Maatch database. However, it took another three years to

788
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:22.840
<v Speaker 2>determine her true identity, and while details are sketchy, one

789
00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:25.239
<v Speaker 2>of the possible reasons it took so long to figure

790
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.199
<v Speaker 2>everything out was because she may be conceived during an

791
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:31.880
<v Speaker 2>affair or one night stand and her biological father had

792
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.039
<v Speaker 2>no idea she even existed. So we may have a

793
00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:38.199
<v Speaker 2>similar situation unfold in Hope's case, where even if her

794
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:41.559
<v Speaker 2>biological family is identified, it might take a while to

795
00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:44.840
<v Speaker 2>put everything together and determine her true identity and the

796
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:46.960
<v Speaker 2>circumstances which led to her being murdered.

797
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:51.719
<v Speaker 1>Wow, it's just so crazy how many of these cases

798
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:55.159
<v Speaker 1>there are out there, like the El Dorado Jane Doe

799
00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:58.960
<v Speaker 1>and being able to solve that. I just always think

800
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:03.519
<v Speaker 1>of your list first of yes individuals and only the one.

801
00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:05.039
<v Speaker 1>What's the one that isn't solved?

802
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Still a little miss Panasofki, who we mentioned on our

803
00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:11.480
<v Speaker 2>last episode, which is one where I think the reason

804
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:13.719
<v Speaker 2>she hasn't been solved is she may have originally hailed

805
00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:16.440
<v Speaker 2>from Europe before she was murdered in the United States,

806
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:19.639
<v Speaker 2>and they have different rules for DNA and genetic geology

807
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:22.239
<v Speaker 2>over there. But I'm just hoping one day that they

808
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:24.880
<v Speaker 2>can identify her and make it ten for ten Because

809
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:28.599
<v Speaker 2>I wrote that list back in twenty thirteen and all

810
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.320
<v Speaker 2>these years later, nine out of the ten decedents on

811
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.320
<v Speaker 2>that list, including El Dorado Jane Doe, have since been identified.

812
00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:38.719
<v Speaker 1>And what would you say? In like most cases, as

813
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:42.719
<v Speaker 1>far as the theories went about the victims or the

814
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:47.440
<v Speaker 1>potential crimes, how close were internet sleuths, Well a.

815
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:49.599
<v Speaker 2>Lot of the time they were wrong. One funny thing

816
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:51.800
<v Speaker 2>is that the El Dorado Jane Doe. I'm sure you've

817
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:55.280
<v Speaker 2>heard of the fort Worth Missing Trio case, right, yes, yes, yes, yes,

818
00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:58.599
<v Speaker 2>And I remember that to the person who killed El Dorado,

819
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.119
<v Speaker 2>Jane Doe was making these crypt to comments in prison

820
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:03.960
<v Speaker 2>about how he might have been responsible for the disappearance

821
00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:06.519
<v Speaker 2>of three girls in Texas, which took place in the

822
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.800
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventies, and people were wondering, oh, could this woman

823
00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:12.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe be one of the missing girls from the fort

824
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Worth Missing Trio case? But of course that didn't turn

825
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:17.480
<v Speaker 2>out to be the case. And more often than not,

826
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.760
<v Speaker 2>the theories surrounding these decendents are a lot more elaborate

827
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.400
<v Speaker 2>and sensationalistic than what turns out to be the truth.

828
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:26.960
<v Speaker 2>Like you have stuff about how people escape from a cult,

829
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:30.440
<v Speaker 2>or they might have gone underground in some like a

830
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:32.840
<v Speaker 2>terrorist organization or something like that, or been a spy,

831
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:35.599
<v Speaker 2>but more often than not, they're just people who decided

832
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.000
<v Speaker 2>to break off all contact with their families, go out

833
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:40.599
<v Speaker 2>on their own, and unfortunately cross paths with someone who

834
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:41.199
<v Speaker 2>murdered them.

835
00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:43.639
<v Speaker 1>I always think of this summer to man. I know

836
00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:45.519
<v Speaker 1>he has identity back, but I can't think of his

837
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:47.519
<v Speaker 1>name off the top of my head. But I always

838
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:49.280
<v Speaker 1>think of the theory of him being a ballerina.

839
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.679
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's another ridiculous one. Yeah. So, while I'm

840
00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:55.960
<v Speaker 2>sure it won't be easy, I do have a feeling

841
00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:58.000
<v Speaker 2>that it will only be a matter of time until

842
00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:01.400
<v Speaker 2>the Saint Louis Jane Doe is identified. Given that over

843
00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:04.039
<v Speaker 2>forty years have passed, it's possible that the person who

844
00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:06.960
<v Speaker 2>was responsible for murdering her is now deceased and will

845
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:10.119
<v Speaker 2>never face justice. But at the very least, this poor

846
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:12.519
<v Speaker 2>girl can finally get her name back. This is a

847
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.320
<v Speaker 2>case which has made a vivid impression on everyone who

848
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:17.760
<v Speaker 2>has heard about it, and while it's undeniable that the

849
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Saint Louis Metropolitan Police Department made mistakes during their investigation,

850
00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:24.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't doubt that everyone who worked on this case

851
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:28.079
<v Speaker 2>was genuinely passionate about solving it. Some of the former

852
00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:31.119
<v Speaker 2>detectives who have since retired or passed away said that

853
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:33.159
<v Speaker 2>they were always haunted by the fact that they could

854
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:35.559
<v Speaker 2>never close the books on this one. But like we

855
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:39.119
<v Speaker 2>mentioned earlier on in this episode, if Joseph Augustus Airelli,

856
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:41.079
<v Speaker 2>a boy who was murdered all the way back in

857
00:43:41.159 --> 00:43:44.440
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty seven, can be identified, there's always hope for

858
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:47.559
<v Speaker 2>this girl. Hell, that's why they nicknamed her Precious Hope.

859
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.679
<v Speaker 2>But it will be nice if we can start referring

860
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:52.159
<v Speaker 2>to her by a real name. So if you happen

861
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.599
<v Speaker 2>to have any information about the identity of the Saint

862
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:58.079
<v Speaker 2>Louis Jane Doe or the circumstances of her murder, please

863
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:01.639
<v Speaker 2>contact the Saint Louis Metropolitan Police Department at three one

864
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:05.079
<v Speaker 2>four two three one one two one two. That's three

865
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:08.679
<v Speaker 2>one four two three one one two one two Jules.

866
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Any final thoughts on this case.

867
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:15.480
<v Speaker 1>This is a really heartbreaking but interesting case, just because

868
00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:19.719
<v Speaker 1>there really are relatives out there and they don't want

869
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:23.079
<v Speaker 1>to be involved. I really hope through genetic genealogy they're

870
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:26.079
<v Speaker 1>able to link some more people who do want to

871
00:44:26.119 --> 00:44:29.039
<v Speaker 1>be involved and do want to participate, and they can

872
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:32.719
<v Speaker 1>build out that family tree and give Hope back her

873
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:36.880
<v Speaker 1>identity because she deserves that. But at least in the meantime,

874
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm thankful that the city of Saint Louis wrapped their

875
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:43.519
<v Speaker 1>arms around her and they really took her in like

876
00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:45.760
<v Speaker 1>a child of their own, and I think that's such

877
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:49.079
<v Speaker 1>a beautiful thing. But this case is shocking to think

878
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:51.639
<v Speaker 1>that there is nobody close by who's a little girl

879
00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:54.400
<v Speaker 1>who's reported missing. And I don't know how much we

880
00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:57.440
<v Speaker 1>can rely on those isotope tests. It's too bad that

881
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.159
<v Speaker 1>there isn't the accuracy, and I think the fact that

882
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:04.320
<v Speaker 1>we don't have teeth obviously lends itself to that. But

883
00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:07.679
<v Speaker 1>to think that a caregiver could do this to a child,

884
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:11.039
<v Speaker 1>to decapitate them, and we brought up another case where

885
00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:15.199
<v Speaker 1>a little girl was also decapitated, and it seems like

886
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:18.440
<v Speaker 1>if you don't want to have somebody be identified, they're

887
00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:22.039
<v Speaker 1>obviously tied to you in some way, unless it's some

888
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:25.679
<v Speaker 1>part of your murder process where you just enjoy removing heads.

889
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.880
<v Speaker 1>I think that there's a strong likelihood in this case

890
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:32.039
<v Speaker 1>that there is somebody who was in a caretaker position

891
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:33.920
<v Speaker 1>who was responsible for Hope's death.

892
00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's what happened as well. And while

893
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.440
<v Speaker 2>we don't know this for certain, that's a lot of

894
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:41.679
<v Speaker 2>people think what happened with the Boy in the Box

895
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:45.639
<v Speaker 2>slash Joseph Augustus Relli case where because they were kept

896
00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:48.719
<v Speaker 2>away from society and not many people interacted with the

897
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:51.199
<v Speaker 2>victim while they were still alive. That's why no one

898
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:53.000
<v Speaker 2>has been able to put two and two together and

899
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:55.639
<v Speaker 2>figure out who she is. And I still remember it

900
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:58.280
<v Speaker 2>was twenty eighteen when they started using jed match and

901
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:01.159
<v Speaker 2>they kept using it to identify all these John and

902
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Jane does and everyone was thinking, ooh, they will eventually

903
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:07.159
<v Speaker 2>get to Saint Louis Jane Doe. It's inevitable that she's

904
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:10.039
<v Speaker 2>going to be identified. But here we are, about seven

905
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:12.880
<v Speaker 2>years since Jed Maatch became a thing, and it still

906
00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:15.840
<v Speaker 2>hasn't happened yet, even though people are still actively working

907
00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:18.000
<v Speaker 2>on it. And I think most loose out there would

908
00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:20.679
<v Speaker 2>rank this as their number one choice of a victim

909
00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:23.960
<v Speaker 2>to be identified, because her story is so heartbreaking and

910
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:27.840
<v Speaker 2>that she was beheaded and assaulted and discarded like garbage

911
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.880
<v Speaker 2>in this abandoned building. Yet over the past forty years,

912
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:33.159
<v Speaker 2>so many people have become attached to this girl and

913
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:36.039
<v Speaker 2>are really hoping that she can finally get her name back.

914
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:38.880
<v Speaker 2>I also need to give a recommendation for Precious Hope.

915
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.400
<v Speaker 2>Revisited the documentary we talked about a few times. Like

916
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I said earlier, the guy who directed it ed rar

917
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:47.760
<v Speaker 2>byrds Sosa. He was nice enough to email me after

918
00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:50.760
<v Speaker 2>my original Trail and Cold episode. Seems like a really

919
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.920
<v Speaker 2>nice guy who's really passionate about getting this case solved.

920
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:56.400
<v Speaker 2>And if you haven't seen it, it's available for viewing

921
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.440
<v Speaker 2>on to be and it has a lot of information

922
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:03.000
<v Speaker 2>that had not and made publicly before the movie came out,

923
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:05.599
<v Speaker 2>and it's spreading even more awareness. So I think it's

924
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.519
<v Speaker 2>going to eventually pave the way to her being identified.

925
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:11.599
<v Speaker 2>And one final thing I wanted to mention is that

926
00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:14.719
<v Speaker 2>I often do Q and A episodes on the Trail

927
00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Went Cold at the end of the year, and one

928
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:19.760
<v Speaker 2>question I often get asked is which case have you

929
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:21.880
<v Speaker 2>covered on the podcast do you think is going to

930
00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:24.599
<v Speaker 2>be solved in the near future. One year, I was

931
00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:27.320
<v Speaker 2>asked and my pick was the Jane Doe known only

932
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:30.119
<v Speaker 2>as Orange Socks, which we've talked about as well, who

933
00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:34.079
<v Speaker 2>was eventually identified as Deborah Jackson, and on another Q

934
00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:37.559
<v Speaker 2>and A episode, my prediction was a murdered man and

935
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:40.159
<v Speaker 2>woman who were known as the Sumpter County Does, who

936
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:42.199
<v Speaker 2>are both shot to death in a remote area of

937
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:44.920
<v Speaker 2>South Carolina, and within a month of me releasing that

938
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Q and A episode, they were finally identified as well.

939
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:51.119
<v Speaker 2>So and the Q and AA episode I released at

940
00:47:51.159 --> 00:47:53.480
<v Speaker 2>the end of twenty twenty four, my pick was the

941
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Saint Louis Jane Doe. So I'm hoping that the good

942
00:47:56.119 --> 00:47:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Luck Street will continue and that she will be identified

943
00:47:59.119 --> 00:47:59.960
<v Speaker 2>at some point this year.

944
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:03.519
<v Speaker 1>Robin the Psychic Detective, Yes, I.

945
00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Mean I'm better than Maaren Vernier. What can I say?

946
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Bring that up?

947
00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you don't have to mail me any sweaters

948
00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:12.320
<v Speaker 2>or ropes or any key pieces of evidence. I can

949
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.880
<v Speaker 2>do that without it. So thanks for joining us, Jules.

950
00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Hopefully we'll have Ashley back for our next series of episodes.

951
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:21.800
<v Speaker 2>So thank you all so much for joining us, and

952
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:22.960
<v Speaker 2>we'll see you again next time.

953
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:26.079
<v Speaker 3>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

954
00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:27.599
<v Speaker 3>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

955
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:30.679
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

956
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:34.519
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

957
00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:37.960
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

958
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:40.840
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

959
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:43.400
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars

960
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:47.559
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in

961
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:50.760
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

962
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:54.079
<v Speaker 2>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

963
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier free the

964
00:48:56.960 --> 00:48:59.840
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

965
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:04.239
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,

966
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:07.480
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

967
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:10.760
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

968
00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:14.159
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

969
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:17.320
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

970
00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:20.760
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

971
00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:23.639
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

972
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:26.440
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

973
00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:29.199
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

974
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:32.239
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

975
00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:33.039
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

976
00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:34.719
<v Speaker 3>So I want to let you know a little bit

977
00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:37.719
<v Speaker 3>about the Jules and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

978
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.639
<v Speaker 3>free episodes of the Path Went chili. We've got our

979
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:43.480
<v Speaker 3>Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

980
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:45.719
<v Speaker 3>so they're not very many, but they're just too short

981
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:48.760
<v Speaker 3>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

982
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:51.400
<v Speaker 3>so we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link

983
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:52.519
<v Speaker 3>them in the show notes.

984
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:54.920
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

985
00:49:55.039 --> 00:49:57.400
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

986
00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.719
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or d rate and review is greatly

987
00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:01.559
<v Speaker 2>a pre ciate it. You can email us at the

988
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:04.639
<v Speaker 2>Pathwentchili at gmail dot com. You can reach us on

989
00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Twitter at the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure

990
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:10.880
<v Speaker 2>to bundle up because cold trails and chili pass call

991
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:11.760
<v Speaker 2>for warm clothing.

992
00:50:11.960 --> 00:50:15.119
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy