Speaker 1: What is up, Fellows Cicco's the post mortem train rolls on,
slash off season look ahead train rolls on. We're not
just talking about playoff team. We're gonna go into each
and every even kind of look at their office.
Speaker 2: Let's get each of it. The Phoenix Suns brand who
as we.
Speaker 1: Record this, they still do need to hire a new
head coach, but they could be get ready to do
a victory lap here inside of ten million dollars from
ducking the second Apron if they decline, I see the
meat Chach's team option and they wave Cody Martin, whose
salary is non guaranteed.
Speaker 2: Let's kind of start here.
Speaker 1: How much for a priority do you think that, given
all the things that matt Ishbias said, how much of
a priority? Knowing we'll get to the Kevin Durant stuff,
the Devin Booker extension stuff, do you think it's gonna
be a priority for them to get out of the
second April lead again to next year?
Speaker 3: I mean, shouldn't it be just just because that would
unlock a few of your roster building options, right you could?
You can aggregate under this. I feel like we're a
year into this and I can't remember being able to
trade the draft picks. Is like, just like it doesn't
matter because they don't have any.
Speaker 4: I guess it. I mean it should be, will it be?
I don't know. I mean, what's your read on it.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming it'll be a priority. I'm just curious, are
they gonna try and do it? Is it we're trying
to save money in the inevitable Kevin Durant because okay,
those are god like they're they're expiring numbers you could
use in trade talks. I'm talking about Michicic and Cody Martin.
I also think Cody Martin could help this team win
a title in form of Dynasty obviously, But it's sort
of like, so you're gonna just get rid of them,
which is fine. They weren't heavy parts of the rotation.
Where are you coming up with, like who do you
want to offload to get rid of the rest of
the money and are you compensating teams to do it?
Speaker 2: So it almost becomes.
Speaker 1: Critical to we get to the Kevin Durant trade talks
of it all what type of return?
Speaker 2: It's why they expected.
Speaker 1: Sham's reported this months ago at this point that after
they shopped them with the trade deadline.
Speaker 2: It's now they will work together to find him a
new home.
Speaker 1: He has a lot of control in the situation because
if he says, hey, I'm not going to sign an
extension the two year extension with team X, Y and Z,
they have zero incentive to then go and give up
a ton to get an agent Kevin Durant. And then
you also need that team to send the Suns what
they need.
Speaker 2: To optimize their direction. Which I throw to you is.
Speaker 3: What that's I mean, that's well in some ways, shouldn't
that be the easiest thing to answer, because what the
Sons want is an expensive star that is in or
at the tail end of his prime to like give
them the chance the best chance to win today.
Speaker 4: Like, isn't that the player type? Now? Who that is
and who that has?
Speaker 3: That guy is looking to trade him for Kevin Durant,
who is also that guy. That's tricky. This has to
be a three team thing, I think. But that just
only makes a very complicated situation more complicated. I think
Brian Windhorst had like repackaged the uh, just the dynamics
here that apply to most superstar trades in a in
a like a pretty clean way, and he called it
like the Durant triangle, which is like, one, you have
to find a team that wants Kevin Durant. Two they
have to have something that you want and are willing
to accept for Kevin Durant, and three Kevin Durant has
to want.
Speaker 2: To go there.
Speaker 3: And so it's just like how tiny is the whole
is the eye of that needle like that just I
just it's gonna be very difficult, but they have to
trade him they like they must, so like I think
it's gonna be one of the most fascinating angles of
the off season to see. And I'll phrase it this way,
but I don't I don't know if it'll end up
being true because it only takes one but to see
what Phoenix is willing to settle for in moving Durant,
because I think Phoenix's options will be like decent and
then bad. There's no like, oh, no brainer return for
kd out there. I don't think I would be shocked
if the Phoenix side of this trade ended up looking
like if we, you know, come on to talk about
it and we're like, pretty good job by the Suns,
like considering pretty good. I don't think that's what we're
gonna say.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's harder easier for them to get
to a point where we or the outside world will
be okay with Kevin Tran trade knowing that unless they're
trying to get pick like you said, mentioned the third
team to get picks to realn a big name, does
it make it harder or easier that they would probably
be willing to accept. I would assume substar players as
part of the return because they want to flesh out
their rotation and still compete around Devin Booker next year.
Speaker 3: So does it make it harder or easier that they
might be willing to take back like a handful of
good players.
Speaker 2: Like rather than because I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think they're going to get a star for Katie,
And I would also question, like, what is the level
of pick equity you're getting that you could then turn
around and acquire a star if you think you're gonna
do well, involve a third team or make a deal later.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean mayas asumption would be what would let
put everything else aside?
Speaker 4: Do you think if they had if the.
Speaker 3: Phoenix wants a star, don't you think like if they
could choose any return for Durant or do you are
you saying you think they might actually prefer like three
rotation guys, one of whom's a starter and like some picks.
Speaker 1: Do you think they would if that's what they have
to settle for, because how do you get a star?
Speaker 2: I don't think.
Speaker 4: I think yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 1: What's the part, So that if you can't get a
star for Kevin Durant, I think there's a case to
say they might as well just settle for other teams's
draft picks. And Okay, Devin Booker, maybe he stays, maybe
you look at moving him, but they're not gonna do.
If Devin Booker is there, which the indications are he's
eligible for an extension for two years about one hundred
and fifty million. Everyone expects him to sign it, and
I'm just kind of like I might wait so that
he could tack on like more years next year to it.
But if Devin Booker is there, you're going for it
in so far as that's like even possible with what remains.
So yeah, I don't think to me, going though, we're
gonna break Kevin Durant up into two or three rotation
players rather than picks. That might help, but like, what
is it gonna help you offload salary at the trade deadline?
Like that other trade did this year where they broke
it up into three draft picks and then they traded
a pick to get off Derrick kage Man.
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess one silver lining is that they
were so disappointing and so seemingly like broken this year
that you could It's like, say you're Booker, you might
just have a better year with those three role playing
guys coming on in Durant's place and a coach that
everybody seems to I mean, Booker might just be like
any other coach I'll be happier with. So like, from
Booker's perspective, he might be fairly satisfied with an unseemingly
unsatisfying trade return for Durant just because, like the whole
the vibes might be better. That the team might win
more games in spite of losing the best player in
the deal, just because, like, I don't know it, just
they still have Booker, They still have you know, a
handful of guys that are real NBA players. So but yeah,
that's not really answering the question about like what they
should target, how they can get anything if.
Speaker 2: This offer was on the table.
Speaker 1: I'm not even advocating for this team in question to do,
and I think there need to be other things to
fill out. Would you do Kevin Durant for it's a
first round pick that's not going to convey until like
twenty thirty one, Peyton Watson and Michael Porter Jr. As
like the baseline of the deal.
Speaker 2: Who actually better? Who says no to that as the
bones of a deal?
Speaker 3: Well, so I thought about it first from Phoenix's perspective,
I think I'm probably doing that.
Speaker 4: Just I don't know what you're gonna do.
Speaker 2: How are you gonna do? No wild cards at that point?
Speaker 1: Which is just you know, so I'm I don't if.
Speaker 4: You're Denver, you better do that.
Speaker 3: If you're Denver, right, Like you're just swapping out Porter
Junior for Durant and like we can get someone. I mean,
Watson's seven minutes a game or fifteen minutes or whatever.
Speaker 1: The only thing that would worry me aside from Kevin
Durant eight, I mean him anyone playing aside like yo, kids,
like think about imagine the shots, Imagine Murray too. Yeah,
just like are like, who's the what ok C did
to them? Like at the beginning of the series, it's well,
you can't if you go after Murray, like it's gonna
come at the expense of probably your kitcher. Like the
Durant coverage, I would just be worried about the three
point volume. Maybe it's easier around Yo Kicic for like direct,
but it's they've I understand, they've built an efficient offense
without being predicated on three point.
Speaker 2: Now you're gonna take your.
Speaker 1: Best high volume three point shooter and replace him with
a modest volume three It would just be something to
think about.
Speaker 4: Something to think.
Speaker 3: I'm still doing it. Defense gets better with the late
thirties Durant and they're over Reporter Junior probably.
Speaker 4: Maybe you're back up maybe with him and Gordon as
the four five.
Speaker 3: Your interior defense is just like fine guns would do
it though I'm My first reaction was yeah, because I
just don't know what else, Like I I you're better
at this than I am by a factor of like
one hundred.
Speaker 4: But as I sit there trying to.
Speaker 3: Put together, like what's the best the Suns can hope
for in a Durant trade if we assume Houston's just
like we're good, We're not. We're not getting involved, Like
I don't I don't know what's going to be better
than a first rounder, like a clear starter that's fairly
young and and a rotation guy.
Speaker 1: And also it's kind of maybe there's a team that's
wanted to include more pick heck, because Peyton Watson's extension eligible,
so oh, we have to pay this guy. Porter Junior's
deals coming up. Some people don't even like that contract
right now. But let's say the Heat and want to
put two first round picks on the table, like the
returning put the Oh we're trading Kevin Durant for Iimy
Hawkes and Terry Rozi Rigans. Oh wait, yeah, so it's
it's I think you're right that if we come up
when we inevitably record, I don't think it'll be an
emergency because we'll all expect maybe it'll be a team
that comes out of the woodwork to get Kevin Durant.
But I could see it's just being oh, all right,
I'd be shocked. Wow, this Sune really killed this, and
if they did, I'll be prepared to probably like lampoo
in the team that UH acquire him. I did want
to get to the Devin Booker at all, because I've
seen a lot of they just need to trade Devin Booker,
and the move is you contact Phoenix, you contact Houston,
and you get.
Speaker 2: Your picks back. Ye.
Speaker 1: Now, I'm not saying I would be opposed to that,
but what I am saying is, I don't think it's
that simple, because you know where your pick is gonna
wind up this year.
Speaker 2: Let's say that one's on the table coming back from Houston.
Speaker 1: But like, you've kind of positioned yourself to have a
choppy rebuild because oh, you can get your twenty twenty
seven pickback but not your twenty twenty six, And you
can get your twenty twenty nine pick back, but you're
you're twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 2: What are you supposed to do now?
Speaker 1: If Houston is saying, we're gonna also give you a
cornerstone around which to build, and I think the names
would be like Shanngoun Jabari or Amen Thompson. I don't
think they give up A'men Thompson and a Devin Booker trade.
And I think you also look at it as even
if they would, you'd prefer to just give up more
assets to not have to do that.
Speaker 2: So just where do you land on that.
Speaker 1: I think it's a I guess what I'm getting at is, well,
I'm not opposed to it. I think it's a it's
a more detailed discussion than some people are just no,
you need to trade Devin Booker get your picks back,
And it's if you were telling me they were gonna
get successive picks back, like the next three. All right, now,
let's talk like what in theory Milwaukee could do if
Jannis went to Portland, Like you could regain control over
your next three picks or not your next three, but
I think twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine, or what you.
Speaker 3: Want is immediate control over over imminent drafts so that
you can tank quickly and get like back in a
position in two years where everybody's happy again.
Speaker 1: And failing that, you at least want the successive picks
back to where okay, Like if they could get back
twenty eight through thirty, maybe that's more of a discussion
than twenty five, where they already know it's gonna be
twenty seven and twenty nine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'm not of the mind that it's
like you just well, I don't know what I if
I knew, I could just get everything back that Houston
has of mine for Booker with like I don't think
it Thompson is realistic, but like a couple players, I
think I think that is the really like if you
just look at the options ahead of the Suns and like,
how do we make how do we make the best
of this?
Speaker 4: I think that's probably.
Speaker 3: Still the way if you're gonna be totally cold and
callous about it. It sucks that Booker seems to want
to be there and and that like he didn't you know,
he didn't design any of this like he was. He's
like he woke up and suddenly the team that was
in the finals and won sixty whatever games was just
not there anymore. That's rough for someone like, you know,
it's it's old fashioned, but it's like it's nice when
guys stay with teams for a long time. Still, that's
a cool thing. I just don't know what the way
forward is if you're not willing to trade him, because
we just talked about how Thorny getting anything for Durant
is gonna be and you could.
Speaker 1: Hurt yourself by being too lasered in on we need
to be good around Devin Booker and then pass on
maybe a more draft pick focus return that would have
helped you like sort of relaunch your existence.
Speaker 3: And how good can you be around Devin Booker with
the other constraints that Phoenix has, like Beil is still there,
that's still a massive problem and a just a huge
like suck on your salary cap and you're not gonna
have young talent infusion through the draft of any consequence.
You're not gonna like I don't see anybody on the
current roster that's like ready to bust. So yeah, you
could be competitive with with Booker, but I feel like
you're really just signing up for like you know, fighting
for a playing spot again, like for for a while.
Speaker 4: So I like, if that's.
Speaker 3: What you want as a franchise and as a fan,
like I'm not gonna begrudge that. I just don't think
that's the optimal way to try to run a team.
So yeah, trading Booker does.
Speaker 2: Don't you.
Speaker 4: I mean, what's the what's the what's.
Speaker 3: The argument for not trading Booker to Houston? If we
go with the made up idea that like the Sons
could pull off something close to the ideal like take
from the Rockets.
Speaker 1: So if it's let's say it's read Shepherd Jabbari and
your picks back, I think some Suns fans might argue
that's not enough. I think Houston fans are gonna say
that's too much. And I think the argument against it
would be that that you're not getting everything back, Like
we kind of saw what the Spurs did. Well, they
didn't give stuff back, but it's like, I mean, Houston
did this with Brooklyn, like not Brooklyn doesn't have all
its own picks back. And so if you're the Suns,
what if you can't get all your picks? But then
it should be a non star or is it not?
If you can get twenty five and twenty seven? Is
that part of the appeal? I mean it's also I
guess the argument would be, what if Houston's not interested
in Booker and they say, we're going it's not a
Booker thing, like we want to see what this group
and do how they could grow. We want a dust
Off reachepper next season. Yeah, is there an argument then
to trade I guess there's an argument to trade him,
but doesn't it make it far less appealing if that
for some reason, whether it's the Rockets won't give you
all that stuff back, or they're just not in the
market for Devin Booker right now, Where do you then
land on the Devin Booker front. Is it's let's just
scour and kind of do the you know, we're just
gonna try and get as much assets from whatever team
is as possible. Or is it well, we might as
well just keep this guy then, because we're not gonna
have control over our drafts still until twenty thirty two.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's definitely a harder call if Houston's just
off the table and or is like you can have
this year's pick back and you know, or something like that.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that that that makes it really close
because at that point, you're we're assuming they're trading Durant regardless.
So the team is I don't know different. I don't
know if it's better maybe it has another pick coming
in from that.
Speaker 4: Deal, but like, how good is that? How good is
the team still?
Speaker 2: Like is it?
Speaker 3: I don't see, Like I don't know. I think I
think it's just like a question of how comfortable you
are winning between thirty five and forty five games for
a while, as you know. But again, like if you
aren't going to really get any benefit from being terrible
because you don't have your own picks, then I guess
like it's a fit. It's fair to ask, like what's
the point of bottoming out that that? You know, like
you just you can't get them back any other way.
So I don't know, it's a closer call.
Speaker 4: I might just lean.
Speaker 3: Towards you got to you gotta start over like this
the Booker era has like run its course, which is
feels crazy to say. It makes me feel old, but
I mean he's he's been in the league ten years, right,
he's It's just like, what do you are the next
handful of years gonna be better than the than the last handful?
Speaker 4: Like probably not?
Speaker 2: Do you know what? Course? I wondered if this would
even be on the table.
Speaker 1: So I think it's Washington is the one that has
control over their twenty six first rounder, right with the swap,
like they have the initial swap, I believe.
Speaker 4: I sure, well, let's go with it.
Speaker 1: They're the first team that comes up. So twenty twenty
six first round pick to Washington, or Lando, Memphis or Charlotte.
They've worn as Zacha calls. They've hordcucks that thing. It's
been hor cucks so many times. Could you do something
like if the Bucks sent there first, they could trade
one distant first round pick. I think at twenty thirty
one or twenty thirty two they sent that to Washington
to send those swap rights back to Phoenix, and then
you're flipping Bradley Beal for Damian Lillard. So the Suns
now have their gap year. They can tank their hearts
out if they want. Maybe they're still moving Kevin Durant.
They get off Bradley Beal's no trade clause, Milwaukee keeps
Giannis and has someone who's immediately gonna play rather than Dame,
who he plays at some point next year, but it's
probably not gonna play much. Yeah, is that who's the
team that says of all that and it just came
to me.
Speaker 2: So I'm not gonna be offended if you're like, it's.
Speaker 3: Saying that that just came to you first of all,
that's like, that's pretty good. So the Bucks are paying
basically the only first that they can trade to turn
Lillard into beal.
Speaker 1: Right, and that's I think that's most iffy. But if
you were trying to keep you honest and be competitive
next year, oh, I don't think.
Speaker 4: That's iffy at all.
Speaker 3: I think because Lillard's a zero next year, like you're
getting nothing, Bill, say what you want, he's not a
zero at least.
Speaker 1: Well, but now you're getting Bradley be on a no
trade clause? Well giving up your Yeah, well okay. The
other thing you could say is would Phoenix give up
in that scenario like they have those other Like they
have this twenty twenty five pick that'll be number twenty
nine or whatever. Would they send that out to grease
the wheels or one of those they could trade one
in twenty eight or twenty nine.
Speaker 2: I believe it's not their own.
Speaker 1: So if I'm Phoenix, I'm if I'm trading Kevin Durant anyway,
I'm absolutely considering that I get my pickback for one year.
And then what you've done is you've no kind of
opened the door, like if you have to move Booker
next summer, maybe Houston wants in still control your twenty
seven pick.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's stupid.
Speaker 1: Again, when it comes to the moment, I haven't a
time to think about it, but it's I don't know.
If I'm Washington, maybe that he's been I'm kind of like, no,
you know, like a really distant Milwaukee pick at this
point with Giannis getting up there and we've already seen
the fergility of Milwaukee, I.
Speaker 2: Don't have it well.
Speaker 3: And just from the Sun's side, you get off of Beal,
which is like it's still it's next year's fifty three,
fifty seven on a player option in twenty like this
could go on like.
Speaker 2: For a while.
Speaker 1: Honestly, if I'm Phoenix, I know I mentioned I might
include one of those, like other for like that number
twenty nine first year, I might include other stuff too
to make it just work. Just to have that, like
having your control of your own pick like that would
be that'd be monstrous.
Speaker 3: I mean, we spent most of this time talking about
Durant and Booker, and like the Beal contract is I
think still I think like this is some hot take
like that is still just such a hintance to ever
turning this around.
Speaker 1: It is And I will say I was wrong in
the moment because I said, when I looked at the
value that went out.
Speaker 2: I was like, maybe if it's not super intuitive.
Speaker 1: But you weren't gonna get more value for this, and
in retrospect the value would have been you're not married
to this contrastuck. The cardinal sin, though, is and I
don't think Jameson's. If I had a guess just based
off how James Jones assembled the team, it's not on him.
The cardinal sin was not negotiating in the Kevin Durant trade. Sure,
you let Brooklyn ask and gave them whatever they wanted,
And that's the cardinal sin.
Speaker 2: We've spent a lot of time.
Speaker 1: I guess it's like, what is the biggest need, like
if you're if you're trying to fill needs via trade,
whether it's with those first or a Kevin Durantry, Like,
what is is it? Two way wings? Is it you
want to a big who can I cut like a
supercharged OsO like something like a big who can make
decisions that plays next to Booker?
Speaker 2: What is it?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: What are you c is it? Do you want like
an actual four general in here?
Speaker 3: I think it's Tom Izzo and I think Ishbe is
gonna pay him seventy five MILLI million dollars a year
to come coach the team because he has a Michigan
state tie, and that's all that seems.
Speaker 4: To matter in their decision making.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I think you listed out most or
all of the good options.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, I'm like, which one? You're like, yes,
all of them.
Speaker 3: I mean it's I would okay if you had to
pick one thing. I think what might make me feel
better about the Sun's like just floor and like baseline
functionality is is like a high end starting center who's
gonna like control the paint defensively, have some like some
lob gravity and just like can't like I don't know
who that is.
Speaker 4: I don't know how they get him.
Speaker 3: Something like that feels like it could organize the team
in a in a positive way.
Speaker 1: I almost agree, but I'm I and I think the
world of Devin Booker is a passer. But like, I
don't trust anyone on this team to capitalize on a
lob threat. And so I'm kind of thinking, like in
the osil Vain of get it to him on the
short roll. Yeah, whatever, Sure, it might still be a center.
I just wonder if it needs to be more dynamic
than what you just outlaid yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean it's just like, sure, that's not great that
it might have to be that it might have to.
Speaker 4: Be more dynamic.
Speaker 3: I mean they like, are we just also back to like,
you know, we can't have Booker and Beald and whoever
they get back for Durant just shouldering this crazy playmaking load.
We need a point guard again because Tyas Jones's deal
is up, and it's just like, well, who's gonna fill
that role?
Speaker 2: Like I don't. I mean, you're only if you are
in the second apron.
Speaker 1: You're working with minimums and at most they might be
able to work with the mini mid level, which just
even when we liked them, like remember when the Clippers
got John Wall, we were like, are right, all right,
good use good use of it very rarely. I mean
Denver's are like Dario Sartz Reggie Jackson, like those signings
just aren't sometimes get more traction out of the minimums
like Russell Westbrook, and Denver has been better than the
Reggie Jackson experience.
Speaker 2: So I mean I'm.
Speaker 3: Personally ready for For me, it's just to be to
be the starter for eighty two games.
Speaker 4: I feel like that's the way we're headed.
Speaker 2: Well, they might they're gonna probably decline a team option
to duck the aprin. I don't I don't back on
the minimum. I don't know what this team is gonna do.
Speaker 1: They have a ton of needs, not many mechanisms to
fill them. I think that they're gonna view to kind
of wrap this up. I think that they're gonna view
that Kevin Durant trade as the vehicle through which they
check as many of the like roster current roster void
boxes as they have. Maybe they'll look more so at
can we turn this into a high end guy or
maybe they will.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll I will I'll.
Speaker 1: Be most surprised if they prioritize draft equity. Maybe if
he goes to Houston, maybe that's not as surprising.
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, I think I think reading reading most
of the comments, I think that that's our front coming
out of the Suns and Ishbia specifically, I feel like
that's the hierarchy is like, if they could pick it
would be superstar as good as Kevin Durant, so we
can win a championship this year. Down a couple levels
like actual rotation guys that could help us not suck,
and then below that is like I would like some
distant draft equity because we're playing the long game. Like
that's just you know that that's not the way they
want to go. All right, Thanks everybody for listening, for watching.
As we head into the off seasons, you are going
to continue to be interesting things to look at as
we head towards free agency, trades, the draft, all that stuff.
Thanks for listening, Thanks for watching. Actually I'm gonna start over.
Speaker 4: Don't use that.
Speaker 1: That sucks.
Speaker 2: I hope I forgot so we pauses for a second.
Speaker 3: All right, that's going to do it. Thanks everybody for listening,
for watching. If you have not already, please remembers.
Speaker 4: Or rate for you and subscribe.
Speaker 3: If you're watching this on YouTube, gives a thumbs up,
leave us a comment there, join our discord links for
that or in the YouTube podcast description. Tell your friends,
Tell your enemies shouts Franklin Keen an apologies, Jared Allen