Speaker 1: Good evening, everybody, and welcome to this week's first episode
Speaker 1: of the Nonprofits And don't forget. Just below this video
Speaker 1: is a little donate button. If you love what we
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Speaker 1: don't really care. But tonight our first article is going
Speaker 1: to start in Colorado, where the Supreme Court has agreed
Speaker 1: to hear a challenge to the state's ban on gender
Speaker 1: conversion therapy four minors. The law House Bill nineteen Dash
Speaker 1: eleven twenty nine, which went into effect in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: is being challenged by a Christian counselor, Kayleie Chiles, who
Speaker 1: argues that the state's ban on conversion therapy violates her
Speaker 1: right to free speech. But is this not just a
Speaker 1: case of forced religious indoctrination being disguised as free speech?
Speaker 1: And what about the protections of the unwilling participants who
Speaker 1: happen to be children? What rights do they have? This
Speaker 1: story is from Axios by Avery Lotts on March time
Speaker 1: and twenty twenty five, and here to discuss with me,
Speaker 1: the I are AJ and infidel sixty four AJ. I
Speaker 1: want to start with you.
Speaker 2: Is there any.
Speaker 1: Legitimacy to Child's claim that her free speech rights are
Speaker 1: being violated.
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I don't see it as a
Speaker 3: violation of her free speech rights because if you think
Speaker 3: about it, she is welcome to discuss any type of
Speaker 3: topic that she feels she has to discuss with her clients. Right,
Speaker 3: if somebody comes to her and wants to discuss their
Speaker 3: their gender, their sexuality, there's sexual orientation, they're free to do.
Speaker 3: So what she's not free to do is force that
Speaker 3: person to convert to what she wants them to convert,
Speaker 3: because that's what conversion therapy is. They want to convert
Speaker 3: somebody to what the therapist wants them to be. Right, Like,
Speaker 3: if you go and you're a gay person, then they
Speaker 3: want to turn you straight. If you're a trans person,
Speaker 3: they want to make sure that you, you know, go back,
Speaker 3: go back. I'm sorry to go these gender. So I
Speaker 3: don't feel in this specific instance that it has anything
Speaker 3: to do with free speech.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, Well, if fidel I want to ask you,
Speaker 1: then on that point that AJ says, well, you know,
Speaker 1: they don't have to force this kind of thing on children, right,
Speaker 1: or they can talk about anything but what about the
Speaker 1: parents that force the children into that situation?
Speaker 3: Do it?
Speaker 1: It's kind of like I don't know, getting a tattoo
Speaker 1: for example. You know, you need the parent's signature, right
Speaker 1: If the parents are bringing the kids to this conversion therapy,
Speaker 1: does the counselor have a right to push the religious
Speaker 1: agenda on that child?
Speaker 2: Well, first, I want to delve into a little bit
Speaker 2: of what AJ was talking about, because it leads into
Speaker 2: exactly what you asked me, okay, And you know right now, though,
Speaker 2: you know, the whole idea of this being free speech
Speaker 2: is ridiculous because speech you can, as AJ touched on,
Speaker 2: You know, you can, you can say what you want
Speaker 2: to say. A white supremacist can say whatever terrible things
Speaker 2: that they want to say, But that doesn't grant them
Speaker 2: to go out and you know Harvard pick up you
Speaker 2: know a few African Americans that bring them out and
Speaker 2: put them out in the field to start harvesting cotton.
Speaker 2: Because under the guys are helping them find their rightful
Speaker 2: place in society. You know, someone can rant about how
Speaker 2: women's place is at home, but it doesn't mean you
Speaker 2: can go out and lock up women and dictate that
Speaker 2: they're what they can and can't do under the idea
Speaker 2: of traditional values. And so when it comes down to this,
Speaker 2: you know, parents have a right to believe in whatever
Speaker 2: pseudoscience they want to get what they believe is the
Speaker 2: best choice. And it does get tricky because I do
Speaker 2: believe that parents should have a fundamental first say in it.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, like we've seen cases where
Speaker 2: people pray for their kids instead of bringing up to
Speaker 2: the hospital, you're causing harm. And in this situation as well,
Speaker 2: I don't think it's really debatable on whether parents doing
Speaker 2: that would be causing harm to their children. And so
Speaker 2: with that in mind, I am very hesitant to think
Speaker 2: that parents should have the right to do something that's
Speaker 2: just a fact that you would be causing harm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, and I agree medical malpractice is what I'm
Speaker 1: going to call. This should not be disguised as free speech.
Speaker 1: And I have a quote from the director of Law
Speaker 1: and Policy of the Trevor Project, and forgive me, I
Speaker 1: didn't jot down the name, but in any case, this
Speaker 1: person says, to be crystal clear, this challenge has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with free speech and everything to do with
Speaker 1: pushing dangerous, debunked practices that have not only proven to
Speaker 1: cause irreparable harm to LGBTQ plus young people all across
Speaker 1: the country. So, you know, I think that you know,
Speaker 1: there is this idea that you can kind of claim
Speaker 1: constitutional violations whenever you're the religious person, right. I think
Speaker 1: that our society, especially the way that we're moving, is
Speaker 1: kind of conditioned people to say, oh, but it's God,
Speaker 1: it's God. With reality, we have to call it what
Speaker 1: it is, right, It's medical malpractice, it's abuse, it's harm
Speaker 1: to children. Know the statistics on suicide and mental health
Speaker 1: being high among LGBTQ plus youth, and so aj I
Speaker 1: want to go back to you. I know that you
Speaker 1: had a point to make about the quote unquote erasing
Speaker 1: of LGBTQ people, and maybe that quote might lead into
Speaker 1: that thought you had there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I was thinking that conversion therapy is
Speaker 3: banned in Colorado, right, and this is where this has happened.
Speaker 3: But there were so many other attempts in the past
Speaker 3: to challenge this band. It's hard to believe that even
Speaker 3: though it was already out loud, there's still I think,
Speaker 3: I want to say, over fifty maybe states that actually
Speaker 3: have loopholes for allowing conversion therapy. I know that twenty
Speaker 3: of them have it completely banned, and you could correct
Speaker 3: me and that if I'm not correct on this, But
Speaker 3: just like you said, this is just like medical my practice. Okay.
Speaker 3: Every major medical and mental health organization in the United
Speaker 3: States has rejected and condemned the use of conversion therapy, including,
Speaker 3: for example, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics,
Speaker 3: the American Medical Association. And yet in a report that
Speaker 3: came out in twenty twenty three, there were still over
Speaker 3: a thousand and three hundred active conversion therapists operating in
Speaker 3: the United States except for Vermont and Hawaii. But half
Speaker 3: of those are associated with a religious organization. So this
Speaker 3: has nothing to do, like you said, with freemous speech
Speaker 3: or anything. That it's just trying to convert people based
Speaker 3: on a religious belief.
Speaker 1: And you raise a great point, and before I get
Speaker 1: to that, I want to kind of close out this
Speaker 1: free speech idea or get I have a question for
Speaker 1: infidel and then I want to come back to the
Speaker 1: idea of religion and and conversion therapy. But you know,
Speaker 1: if where is the line drawn between the psychiatrist's freedom
Speaker 1: and the patient's rights. In other words, at what point
Speaker 1: does therapy just become too much?
Speaker 2: Oh? First, I think that when it comes down to
Speaker 2: therapist rights, I think they've already lost from my perspective,
Speaker 2: just arguing from that perspective, because while I'm giving willing
Speaker 2: to give certain latitude to the parent to adhere to
Speaker 2: policies and viewpoints that I find even reprehensible, when it
Speaker 2: comes down to be a professional, if you're going to
Speaker 2: present yourself as a professional, I think that there's a
Speaker 2: whole different level of expectations. And I don't think you
Speaker 2: have any damn free speech rights or you know, we
Speaker 2: see these things bleed into things like people wanting to say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I can't give you medicine, I can't give
Speaker 2: you birth control pills because I think it's wrong because
Speaker 2: you're an unmarried mother. This is the same thing. If
Speaker 2: you got a job to do, do your job and
Speaker 2: be a professional. It is not your job to to
Speaker 2: get up on a on a soapbox and tell people
Speaker 2: what you think. The hell with your free speech? So
Speaker 2: I say that they they've already lost me when they
Speaker 2: first said free speech. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And that's a point I haven't considered you know,
Speaker 1: when you agree to maybe help people with their problems,
Speaker 1: you know, the concern about your agenda should not be
Speaker 1: a concern at all. I mean, this is not about you,
Speaker 1: This is about the patient. And you know, we see
Speaker 1: that in a lot of other sectors in society. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been to counseling before, and I just know from
Speaker 1: experience that, you know, my counselor, when we get too
Speaker 1: close to their own life, will pivot back and say,
Speaker 1: you know, let's stay focused.
Speaker 2: That kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Military chaplains, regardless of whatever denomination they represent, they're required
Speaker 1: to help other people of different denominations, and you know what,
Speaker 1: they take pride in it. So I don't understand why
Speaker 1: we can't see the same thing. And it's an interesting
Speaker 1: point you raised, aj, you know, just to clarify what
Speaker 1: you had said. So conversion therapy completely banned in twenty
Speaker 1: four states. There's a partial ban, in five there is
Speaker 1: a prohibit, and then on the flip side, bands are prohibited.
Speaker 1: So you cannot ban it in four states, and that's Georgia, Florida, Alabama,
Speaker 1: and then Indiana. Interestingly enough, there's no ban in the
Speaker 1: remainder and so that's eighteen states. But in any case,
Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of speak to a point that
Speaker 1: you made. I have never seen a secular therapist with
Speaker 1: an alternative agenda. Right, The conversion therapists are always religious,
Speaker 1: and that might seem redundant, but you know, why is it.
Speaker 1: Why is it that it's always this conversion out of
Speaker 1: your perceived gender into the gender that society wants you
Speaker 1: to be. Why does it always come from religious people?
Speaker 3: I think the same reason why the hate comes from
Speaker 3: religious people, right, is all I will relate it, like
Speaker 3: in angles, back to the teachings that they put out
Speaker 3: in church and from your own from even in your
Speaker 3: own family, from childhood. Most religious peoples are already being
Speaker 3: in shape to believe that they you know, being gay
Speaker 3: is wrong, being transgender is wrong. And so these these
Speaker 3: people grow up to be adults and eventually they're gonna
Speaker 3: they're gonna grow up with the same exact beliefs. And
Speaker 3: I think that's that's basically why you don't really find
Speaker 3: secular therapists that are trying to apply this conversion therapy. Honest,
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, I've never really heard men either,
Speaker 3: Like you said, there's there's just no, it's just not
Speaker 3: something that you hear about, like whenever you're saying exist.
Speaker 2: I just don't know. I don't know if any.
Speaker 3: I think that the point that I made earlier and
Speaker 3: some of the research that I did, where I say
Speaker 3: that thirteen hundred therapists, that half of them were associated
Speaker 3: with a religious organization. It was simply major organizations, okay,
Speaker 3: with like churches and Catholic hospitals and such. So I
Speaker 3: think that more than likely the other half are religious
Speaker 3: but not affiliated with a large organization that one could
Speaker 3: recognize us, you know, like oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And on that note, you know, infidel, I want to
Speaker 1: ask you, why is it that Christianity conflicts with another
Speaker 1: person's bodily autonomy? I mean, what are think it's so
Speaker 1: concerned about.
Speaker 2: Oh, the very basis of religion in general, but specifically
Speaker 2: in this case Christianity. It's obedience. I mean, it's obedience
Speaker 2: without thought. I mean when when you look at the
Speaker 2: going back to Genesis, the first sin was seeking knowledge,
Speaker 2: to seek understanding, and that has not ever been something
Speaker 2: that Christianity or religion in general, tends to promote. It's
Speaker 2: always obedience, follow the rules, you know, do what we say,
Speaker 2: are whatever the hierarchy above you says you're supposed to do.
Speaker 2: So I think that that's part of it. And I
Speaker 2: think that we've had, unfortunately many people latch on to
Speaker 2: certain things, like you know, there they are so gung
Speaker 2: ho to tell us about what the Bible says about
Speaker 2: LGBTQ people, but there's so many other things that the
Speaker 2: Bible mentions more frequently that this kind of cat goes
Speaker 2: by the wayside because it's something that they're that's close
Speaker 2: to them, so they don't talk about it. So I
Speaker 2: think it's a matter of projection of lack of obedience
Speaker 2: to other people. And I think that that also comes
Speaker 2: from a position of superiority, which is something else that's
Speaker 2: hardwired in the religion.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, and I don't think that it's any surprise
Speaker 1: that Conservatives and Christians meld together. I mean, take a
Speaker 1: look at the wave that is that is happening in
Speaker 1: our country. I know I mentioned that same term earlier,
Speaker 1: but it is it's kind of a wave. I mean,
Speaker 1: it might be it might be kind of identity politics
Speaker 1: that have been suppressed for a long time that are
Speaker 1: that are now becoming exposed. But in any case, we're
Speaker 1: seeing an increase, and it's among conservatives in this country
Speaker 1: that are that are acquiescing and just following blindly to
Speaker 1: people in power and basically taking whatever they say as gospel.
Speaker 1: And that happens in Christianity as well. Right, you follow
Speaker 1: the person with the book, you follow the person with
Speaker 1: the with the text your entire life, and you never
Speaker 1: question it. And we see that in conservative politics in
Speaker 1: this country today. So again, no question why conservatives and
Speaker 1: Christians get along so well.
Speaker 2: I will say this.
Speaker 1: The conservative group Alliance Defending Freedom states that Colorado disagrees
Speaker 1: with Chile's excuse me, Colorado disagrees with Child's beliefs on
Speaker 1: gender and sexuality so much so that it puts itself
Speaker 1: in her counseling room. And I don't think this is
Speaker 1: a case of the state injecting itself into the counseling room.
Speaker 1: I think it's a case of the counselor injecting religion
Speaker 1: on unwilling participants. And so, ag I wanted to see
Speaker 1: what you had what you had to say about that.
Speaker 3: Now, you know when I think that's interesting when you
Speaker 3: were talking about the conservatives, because it seems to me
Speaker 3: that the majority of people of religions that have issues
Speaker 3: with LGBTQ people are from conservative religions, not specifically Christianity
Speaker 3: obviously in Catholicism is part of Christianity, but you also
Speaker 3: have Muslims and all of the Abrahamic religions. Like if
Speaker 3: you look at Bullhists, they don't care about algibetqple, Like,
Speaker 3: you don't see them advocating for conversion therapy and stuff
Speaker 3: like that. It's really interesting that it seems to be
Speaker 3: only the conservatives that are focused on that obsession with
Speaker 3: changing and erasing completely GIBTQ people.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, ifidel we have got when it comes to conservatives,
Speaker 1: obviously a conservative majority on the Supreme Court. What's the
Speaker 1: significance of that makeup to this fight over conversion therapy
Speaker 1: and gender and sexuality in society today.
Speaker 2: Yeah. For me, it's a very concerning thing because I
Speaker 2: know that Supreme Court in the United States has owned
Speaker 2: previously a decline taking up cases like this. I know Kavanaugh, Alito,
Speaker 2: and Thomas have been in favor of it, and I
Speaker 2: think that that's a very dangerous thing for us to
Speaker 2: be gravely concerned about because we see it. I mean,
Speaker 2: Thomas has even been open enough to say that, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe with this whole same sex marriage thing and contraception
Speaker 2: weren't resolved the way they should be. And with Alito,
Speaker 2: I mean he's even referred to lgbt Q as rights
Speaker 2: as Satanism. So when you start taking things into that consideration,
Speaker 2: you know, Gorsa, he's all backing, He's back business discrimination
Speaker 2: against LGBTQ people. Barrett. She's been linked to essentially what
Speaker 2: I would call re education groups, you know, conversion therapy
Speaker 2: to style type of behavior. So with this in mind,
Speaker 2: I am gravely concerned how this is going to play out.
Speaker 2: Because I think that the Supreme Court is right for
Speaker 2: changing some things that we thought were safe as we've
Speaker 2: seen in recent years. I think that the LGBTQ rights
Speaker 2: is something else that very much could be on the
Speaker 2: chopping block byers.
Speaker 3: I don't think they understand the harm that they're doing,
Speaker 3: Like how harmful this is for young people. There's studies
Speaker 3: that have shown that young LGBTQ individuals whose families don't
Speaker 3: support them are eight times more likely to have attempted
Speaker 3: suicide than those who had family support. And then you
Speaker 3: have the American Academy of Pediatrics that has publicly stated
Speaker 3: that these therapies directed specifically at trying to change somebody's
Speaker 3: sexual orientation or their gender is not recommended. Okay, it
Speaker 3: can prove guild anxiety, and in fact, over half of
Speaker 3: tranksgendered you say that they have seriously considered suicide in
Speaker 3: the last year because of their discrimination the rejection that
Speaker 3: they face. Have so much conclusive scientific evidence, right, and
Speaker 3: consensus among mental health experts and scientists affirming that when
Speaker 3: you support an lgbtqu's child's identity, it protects their mental hope.
Speaker 3: And the evidence shows that, you know, even trying to
Speaker 3: suppress this is just really really harmful. So yeah, conversion
Speaker 3: therapy should just not be practiced at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: You know, on this show we have covered time and
Speaker 1: again the effects of banning gender affirming care and seeing
Speaker 1: that when that happens, not only our mental health CRIS
Speaker 1: is more prominent, but so is drug use. People that
Speaker 1: are self medicating, you know, people who have to seek
Speaker 1: their own treatment because they're the help that they're getting
Speaker 1: is being eliminated. It's it's the the drugs that like
Speaker 1: antidepressants and anti anti anxiety medication. It's things like regular
Speaker 1: hormone treatments, and we start to see a rise in
Speaker 1: mental health issues for people when their identity, when their
Speaker 1: gender and their sexuality is not taken as a serious issue,
Speaker 1: and it's just bad for everybody, especially the children who
Speaker 1: religion seems to always come for first. And now I
Speaker 1: think conservatives have shown that they are willing to do
Speaker 1: the same thing. So if you are interested in seeing
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Speaker 2: Thanks