Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: And Martin willis share host and we have one of
Speaker 2: my very favorite guests on. He hasn't been on in
Speaker 2: a while, a year and a half or something. David Marler.
Speaker 2: Always a pleasure. And someone had asked me on another show,
Speaker 2: and I'm not sure if it's I was on John Kerriaku.
Speaker 2: I was on his show, The CIA x CIA. He
Speaker 2: has a great show.
Speaker 1: I was on that, and.
Speaker 2: I do believe it was him who asked me who
Speaker 2: I would trust to release the information from the United States,
Speaker 2: like if we found contact for sure, one hundred percent proof,
Speaker 2: And I said David Marler.
Speaker 1: And I mean that.
Speaker 2: I really there's few people out there with as much
Speaker 2: integrity that look into the UFO topic. And I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to belittle anyone else. I'm just saying he's right
Speaker 2: up top with integrity, and he has a archive. We're
Speaker 2: going to be talking about that. It's just so many
Speaker 2: things have happened since he's been on last and I'm
Speaker 2: going to be bringing that up as well. A lot
Speaker 2: of people remember Ray Stanford, who has been on the
Speaker 2: show a number of times over the years, and right
Speaker 2: from the beginning when I started in twenty eleven. I
Speaker 2: think he was on like twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, and
Speaker 2: I had the pleasure of being in race home in
Speaker 2: Maryland and looking through his massive collection of you name
Speaker 2: it photos, all kinds of clips of videos of all
Speaker 2: these sightings that he had over the years. And we're
Speaker 2: going all the way back to the nineteen seventies when
Speaker 2: he had all this electrical equipment out detection equipment out
Speaker 2: in Texas and he had I think they raised about
Speaker 2: a million dollars back in the nineteen seventies for all
Speaker 2: this equipment.
Speaker 1: Anyway, so Ray passed away.
Speaker 2: I mentioned that on the show several months ago, and
Speaker 2: there is some.
Speaker 1: People trying to raise funds to get.
Speaker 2: His archive together and put in a good location, perhaps
Speaker 2: maybe even the.
Speaker 1: Where we're going to be talking with.
Speaker 2: Dave today and his archive perhaps a place like that.
Speaker 2: So anyway, I'm going to put this in the show notes.
Speaker 2: I would like for you to if you can, if
Speaker 2: you have the means, to help raise the money so
Speaker 2: we can take care of all this great information that
Speaker 2: can be passed on for generations ahead. So that's kind
Speaker 2: of what this show is going to be talking about,
Speaker 2: is preserving the history and with no further ado, bringing
Speaker 2: in Dave Marler.
Speaker 1: Are you doing David? Great to see you again.
Speaker 2: So let me ask you, do you finally have some
Speaker 2: room in your garage?
Speaker 3: Well, the running joke for the last year year and
Speaker 3: a half has been and in fact I made this
Speaker 3: comment during our ribbon cutting ceremony a year ago. In
Speaker 3: the partnership with the public school system providing us with
Speaker 3: public buildings for our archives. They not only helped preserve
Speaker 3: UFO history, they help preserve my marriage because my wife
Speaker 3: was getting fed up with all of the UFO material
Speaker 3: that was filling every room in the house.
Speaker 4: So now all that UFO.
Speaker 3: Material is in a nice, secure facility and again in
Speaker 3: partnership with the real Rancho public school System. My thanks
Speaker 3: to them, and the last year has just been a whirlwind.
Speaker 3: But we'll be talking about that during the show, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And do you still have that the area in your
Speaker 2: garage though we have the desk, is everything moved over there?
Speaker 3: Everything is now at the archives, yes, be able to
Speaker 3: park in the garage.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
Speaker 3: There is actually separation of church and state now. So
Speaker 3: there's my personal life and then there's the archive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a great, that's a great thing. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad.
Speaker 2: And you know, it was so hard for you to
Speaker 2: refuse things when you'd hear these collections.
Speaker 1: How could you refuse them? You had to do something
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 4: We don't say no.
Speaker 3: We don't say no because you know, so many collections.
Speaker 3: We don't often talk about this, but so many collections
Speaker 3: have not had succession plans and ultimately wound up in
Speaker 3: a landfill somewhere. Yes, we don't often talk about the
Speaker 3: ones we lost. We like to talk about the ones
Speaker 3: that we've salvaged.
Speaker 2: Well, I do remember, and you do have this collection?
Speaker 2: Was the guy bought at a yard sale?
Speaker 1: Right? It was he founded a yard sale. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to remember. He was on my show, But eventually it
Speaker 1: got to you.
Speaker 4: Was that the blue book material?
Speaker 1: That's correct? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It was actually a storage unit that went into arrears
Speaker 3: on payments, and so it was like storage wars where
Speaker 3: people were coming in to bid on these units. And
Speaker 3: this one particular unit, which was outside of Dayton, Ohio,
Speaker 3: had a bunch of lumber piled up, and so the
Speaker 3: gentleman bid on it. He thought, Okay, this is great,
Speaker 3: I've got some cheap lumber. For my construction company, and
Speaker 3: he won the bid, and he and his crew started
Speaker 3: hauling out just stacks of two by fours in plywood
Speaker 3: and to the very back of the storage unit, literally
Speaker 3: tucked away for decades, where two or three large boxes
Speaker 3: marked Project Blue Book. And it was in the Dayton area,
Speaker 3: so it was near right Patterson, so it's in the
Speaker 3: right locale. But long story short, the gentleman could care
Speaker 3: less about the UFO subject, and he posted all this
Speaker 3: on Craig's list and mister Rob Mercer in Ohio Spreyfield, Ohio,
Speaker 3: who actually ultimately purchased it from this gentleman. And in
Speaker 3: his research he kept coming across a name in the
Speaker 3: original Blue Book documents and it was Lieutenant Carmen Morano.
Speaker 3: And I think you and your audience will agree that's
Speaker 3: not a common name. It's not like Joe Smith. And
Speaker 3: so he looked up the name Carmen Morano and there
Speaker 3: was one gentleman by that name that he found on
Speaker 3: the Internet and it led to an email address which
Speaker 3: led to a phone number. Long story short, he did
Speaker 3: strike up conversation with Lieutenant Carmon Morano and he is,
Speaker 3: in fact one of the last Blue Book staff members,
Speaker 3: and there's a photo if you google Project blue Book
Speaker 3: staff photo. There's two famous photos, but one shows a
Speaker 3: very slim, darker skinned gentleman standing behind Hector Quintinella, who
Speaker 3: was in charge of Blue Book in the mid late sixties,
Speaker 3: and that's Lieutenant Carmen Morano. And long story short, they
Speaker 3: struck up a rapport and after about the third or
Speaker 3: fourth phone call, Carmen Morano told Rob, it seems like
Speaker 3: you're really enjoying that material. I think I've got two
Speaker 3: or three boxes out here in Pennsylvania where I moved to,
Speaker 3: and he sent that material out and then ultimately Rob
Speaker 3: was very kind and generous and donating that material to myself,
Speaker 3: which is now part of the holdings at the National
Speaker 3: UFO Historical Record Center.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's great.
Speaker 2: So it looks like we have someone right there and
Speaker 2: Rio Rancho right next right there happens to be watching. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yes, you're the building. Let's let's hear about the
Speaker 2: building you said that belongs to the schools the local Yes,
Speaker 2: and how much square foot did do you have there?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 3: Currently, let me see, I have to I think we
Speaker 3: have roughly three thousand square feet total, but we're looking
Speaker 3: to expand. As I like to say, it's proof of concept.
Speaker 3: But just for the backstory, I had started reaching out
Speaker 3: to the mayor, to the city council. I also presented
Speaker 3: to the county commissioners. I was introduced to the county
Speaker 3: chairperson and he had asked, would you like to come
Speaker 3: and present this to the city the county council, which
Speaker 3: I did in twenty twenty three, and ultimately, I mean,
Speaker 3: I can't tell you how many meetings I was engaged
Speaker 3: with Martin to get where we are, but it ultimately
Speaker 3: led me to the public school system and they stated
Speaker 3: that they actually had some portable classrooms that they were
Speaker 3: not using, and so they were kind enough to provide
Speaker 3: those buildings for our use. And over the course of
Speaker 3: the last year, we've done major innovations. They've done major
Speaker 3: innovations with the ground. We have a private parking lot,
Speaker 3: security fencing, automated gate. Both the building and the facilities
Speaker 3: are all badge access only, security cameras, alarm systems, bulletproof
Speaker 3: glass on the buildings. When they saw the nature of
Speaker 3: what we had original bluebook military files going back to
Speaker 3: forty seven. As a visitor recently was State Senator Jay
Speaker 3: Block from New Mexico, he visited us about a month ago,
Speaker 3: posted on Facebook after he had seen what we had
Speaker 3: twice Martin. He said this, Now, this is a state
Speaker 3: senator saying this about a UFO archive. He told his
Speaker 3: audience on his Facebook page, this is a national treasure.
Speaker 1: Wow, and so awesome.
Speaker 3: That's the level of support that we're starting to garner.
Speaker 3: We're looking to help hopefully secure some county funds, some
Speaker 3: state funds, and continue to grow this. This is just
Speaker 3: at the beginning, and that's great.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The thing of it is is think about how much
Speaker 2: has changed since you and I started talking, you know,
Speaker 2: ever since. I have to say, I always go back
Speaker 2: to the New York Times article in twenty seventeen, where
Speaker 2: the stigma has just lifted so much since that time,
Speaker 2: because I don't think that would have happened with that
Speaker 2: senator prior to that. I don't believe he'd say that.
Speaker 3: It's not often that you can point to one specific day,
Speaker 3: one specific event that truly was a sea change that
Speaker 3: changed everything to your point, you know, December twenty seventeen
Speaker 3: with the New York Times article, everything changed and so
Speaker 3: many people that are coming to the archives. Now, so
Speaker 3: many people that are contacting me state I really never
Speaker 3: gave this UFO subject any thought until twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: That's right, Yep, yep, that's really something. So I want
Speaker 2: to ask you, what how did this whole thing start?
Speaker 2: How did it start with you?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean going back to nineteen ninety and I'm
Speaker 3: dating myself as this coming January, I'll be have been
Speaker 3: actively involved in the.
Speaker 4: UFO field for thirty six years.
Speaker 3: When I first got involved actively in nineteen ninety, i
Speaker 3: joined moufon. I thought to myself, if I'm going to
Speaker 3: go out and investigate, I should know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: So naively and I look back, it was so naive
Speaker 3: on my part. I was looking at local library branches
Speaker 3: in my area, thinking I could check out all these
Speaker 3: books on UFOs, and to my surprise, there were little
Speaker 3: or no book looks on the subject in any of
Speaker 3: the library branches I was going to. So at the time,
Speaker 3: and again this is really prior to the internet blossoming,
Speaker 3: it was just primarily bulletin boards back in nineteen ninety. Still,
Speaker 3: I started going to use bookstores in the Saint Louis
Speaker 3: area where I'm originally from and slowly started cobbling together
Speaker 3: a library. And by library, I mean a bookcase in
Speaker 3: my living room. Then it occupied, you know, a small
Speaker 3: room in my home, than a large room in my home,
Speaker 3: than multiple rooms in my home. And as I like
Speaker 3: to say, the laws of physics, it talks about the
Speaker 3: larger the mass, the greater the gravitational pull, the more
Speaker 3: that we gather, the more people are coming out of
Speaker 3: the woodwork saying we have collections, we have material. I
Speaker 3: would like to donate this item, I would like to
Speaker 3: donate this collection. And so it's been a snowball effect.
Speaker 3: And unfortunately, on a sad note, and I speak for
Speaker 3: both of us on this, you know, we sometimes inherit
Speaker 3: these collections, not under the best conditions, you know, our
Speaker 3: mutual dear friend Lisepiegel, for example. I still miss Lee.
Speaker 3: I still expect him to call me all the time.
Speaker 3: We had so many late night conversations, as I know
Speaker 3: you did.
Speaker 1: I talk about it all the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But it's unfortunately under circumstances like that that we
Speaker 3: inherit those files. And literally days after before or after
Speaker 3: I can't remember, because that was a really bad time,
Speaker 3: but a day or two before or after Lee passed.
Speaker 3: David Perkins, another dear friend of mine here in Santa Fe,
Speaker 3: New Mexico, passed away. And for those that didn't know David,
Speaker 3: he actually showed Linda how the Ropes in the early
Speaker 3: mid seventies about cattle mutilations. Both he and Tom Adams,
Speaker 3: who was they were really pioneers with regard to the
Speaker 3: cattle mutilation mystery. And so he passed away and his
Speaker 3: widow contacted me. I was actually working with him up
Speaker 3: until the point where he died, because he knew he
Speaker 3: had to do something with his collection, and so I
Speaker 3: started getting his collection before he passed, and then I
Speaker 3: had to go to his home after he had passed
Speaker 3: and work with his widow. So it's unfortunately under those
Speaker 3: conditions we quite all can get those collections now. On
Speaker 3: a positive note, it's not always gloom and doom. Antonio
Speaker 3: Huneus reached out to me and he was wanting to
Speaker 3: sell his collection several years ago. And Antonio had a
Speaker 3: wide range of foreign material, rare foreign material and books
Speaker 3: and journals, and so we have that in the library.
Speaker 3: And then one of the other stories, which I don't
Speaker 3: often talk about, we talked about Rob mercer with the
Speaker 3: blue Book files and how those surfaced. The backstory on
Speaker 3: some of these are just funny. I got contacted and
Speaker 3: I literally do not know who originally reached out to me,
Speaker 3: but there was a self proclaimed dumpster diver in New
Speaker 3: York State who claimed that he had all this historic
Speaker 3: UFO material. So after a successive number of emails that
Speaker 3: led to phone calls, come to find out that he
Speaker 3: was going into this dumpster where a family was throwing
Speaker 3: all this material out. Well, it was the family of
Speaker 3: doctor Leon Davidson. Leon Davidson worked on the Manhattan Project.
Speaker 4: He was a.
Speaker 3: Prolific UFO investigator researcher in the fifties, sixties and sees.
Speaker 3: And he had passed away several years ago, and ostensibly
Speaker 3: his collection resided at Columbia University as alma mater. But
Speaker 3: this gentleman was finding original correspondents, his college degree certificates
Speaker 3: from the War Department thanking him for his work on
Speaker 3: the Manhattan Project correspondence and case files. And so, long
Speaker 3: story short, I purchased the collection. And that's another collection.
Speaker 4: That we have.
Speaker 3: But this is one that was literally in the trash
Speaker 3: ready to go to a landfill. This gentleman on successful
Speaker 3: successive nights, and he even added some nights it was
Speaker 3: raining and I would have to close the lid on
Speaker 3: the dumpster, and I was in there with a flashlight
Speaker 3: gathering up all but original correspondence from Kenneth Arnold, just
Speaker 3: to give people an idea what we're talking about, and
Speaker 3: any big name from the nineteen fifties, there was correspondence
Speaker 3: to and from those individuals.
Speaker 2: Now, when we had a conversation the other day, I
Speaker 2: told you that I'm reading this book and it escapes
Speaker 2: my mind. I just traveled down to South Carolina and
Speaker 2: brought it with me. But you knew the book right away.
Speaker 1: It was probably that's it, Yes, and you know, reading
Speaker 1: that it might have been Mysteries of the Guys, that's it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And who is the author of that, Lauren?
Speaker 4: It was Harold and Knowel and Gordon Lore.
Speaker 1: That's a White Tower. Yes, Yes, great, great book so
Speaker 1: far that I'm reading into it.
Speaker 2: But it's so funny to read. They're talking about Kenneth
Speaker 2: Arnold And they said, and so that was twenty years
Speaker 2: we've been looking into this topic.
Speaker 3: Well, And as we also talked about, that was the
Speaker 3: first really good book that focused a chapter on the
Speaker 3: Battle of La Incident, which is of course one of
Speaker 3: my favorite cases.
Speaker 1: That's right, and I'm going to be talking to.
Speaker 2: Josh I have Joshua bertrand researcher coming up on Thursday,
Speaker 2: and we're going to be talking about the Lighter than
Speaker 2: the air ships and things like that, which is in
Speaker 2: this book. They talk about the ghost ships and they
Speaker 2: set eighteen ninety six, eighteen ninety seven. Yes, and I'll
Speaker 2: be darn if they don't talk about a cattle.
Speaker 1: Mutilation back there. Yes, yes, I mean that whole story
Speaker 1: is just amazing.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And in fact, we get the question asked while we're
Speaker 3: talking about airships. One of the questions I often get asked,
Speaker 3: Martin is what's the oldest item you have in the archives?
Speaker 3: And the thing I point to is we have original
Speaker 3: framed front page originals, not copies eighteen ninety seven airship
Speaker 3: newspaper accounts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, and there are records going way back,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, you know a lot further than that,
Speaker 2: but I mean that's still you know, but for your archive,
Speaker 2: that's what you have, as far as you know, the oldest,
Speaker 2: which is quite amazing. And since you did the book
Speaker 2: on the triangle UFOs. I know what happens when books
Speaker 2: like this come out, all of a sudden, all these
Speaker 2: people get a hold of you and say, well, I
Speaker 2: got to tell you about my encounter and my encounter.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've had a lot of that.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and I was not expecting that. When I
Speaker 3: wrote the book. I was wanting to get the information
Speaker 3: out there. I did not expect to have people flooding
Speaker 3: me with additional reports.
Speaker 1: And I have.
Speaker 2: I've talked to you about a number of things that
Speaker 2: I've heard from different people. But still, what would you
Speaker 2: say would be the first triangle that was noted?
Speaker 3: Well, as I always like to preface stating, the further
Speaker 3: you go back in time, the less detailed the accounts are,
Speaker 3: so you know it's for example, we have reports to
Speaker 3: answer your question from like eighteen eighty one, and from
Speaker 3: that general timeframe. I have an original Scientific American from
Speaker 3: eighteen eighty two that talks about what sounds like the
Speaker 3: sighting of two triangles in Connecticut. But admittedly, when you're
Speaker 3: looking at these little reports that are often a paragraph
Speaker 3: or two in these publications from the eighteen hundreds, they're
Speaker 3: not as detailed or exhausted as a military report, say
Speaker 3: from nineteen fifty five or nineteen fifty nine, where you
Speaker 3: have wins, a loft data, you have radar, you have
Speaker 3: all these other elements, but there are these interesting, I
Speaker 3: would say, intriguing, highly intriguing reports of what appeared to
Speaker 3: be triangular objects for lack of a better term, in
Speaker 3: the late nineteenth century.
Speaker 2: I did tell you about a listener of this show.
Speaker 2: I haven't heard from her for a while, but her
Speaker 2: name is Katie. She lives in Australia and back in
Speaker 2: the nineteen early in nineteen eighties, I believe it, when
Speaker 2: she was a young girl with her grandmother, a triangle
Speaker 2: came over them when they were in the garden, and
Speaker 2: she said that forced them to the ground. Then pressure
Speaker 2: pushed them down down to the ground. I do think
Speaker 2: I told you about that, but maybe I do.
Speaker 4: That one doesn't ring a bell. That's pretty intriguing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2: So here's the thing that a lot of people will
Speaker 2: say to me, or I've heard people say on other
Speaker 2: shows and things like that, is that all these triangles
Speaker 2: that people are seeing, they're just they're military, you know, projects,
Speaker 2: and you know you hear about all that, but they
Speaker 2: never talk about, oh well, there were some in the fifties,
Speaker 2: you know, and if that's the case, if we had
Speaker 2: that technology in the fifties, we certainly wouldn't be able
Speaker 2: to keep it quiet that long.
Speaker 1: Yeah my opinion.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3: Now, I like to kind of words matter, so I
Speaker 3: always like to try to answer this very carefully. We
Speaker 3: don't know today what state of the art technology is
Speaker 3: as far as compartmented classified projects.
Speaker 4: We really don't know the.
Speaker 3: State of aircraft unless you're involved in those projects. But
Speaker 3: so some in answer to your position, some of these
Speaker 3: may be military that people are seeing today. However, the
Speaker 3: flight characteristics, the lighting characteristics, those elements are identical to
Speaker 3: reports we have going back to the forties, fifties, sixties,
Speaker 3: and more specifically, I think we need to emphasize this
Speaker 3: martin worldwide, not just the United States, worldwide reports and
Speaker 3: so even reports of these triangles flying with the flat
Speaker 3: end as the leading edge, I mean reports of that today.
Speaker 3: We have reports from the fifties and sixties of these things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or there's been a couple of them that they've
Speaker 1: been on like.
Speaker 4: A vertical correct.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a case from Connecticut I believe it was
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty two or sixty four with a sketch showing
Speaker 3: a triangle on edge like that with the point of
Speaker 3: light at each and then a red light in the middle.
Speaker 1: So just like people talk about yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And while we're on that subject, i'd love just
Speaker 3: to mention this briefly. We've garnered a lot of attention
Speaker 3: with the work that we've been doing with the Archives
Speaker 3: in assembling all of this historical data. And I can't
Speaker 3: go into too much specifics because I don't want to
Speaker 3: jeopardize the relationships I'm building right now. But we have
Speaker 3: been contacted by agencies from DoD and DOJ, and I
Speaker 3: was contacted for two reasons. This is kind of tying
Speaker 3: these two things that we're talking about together. They're interested
Speaker 3: in the history that we've assembled, and we've even had
Speaker 3: a visitor from DoD that actually came to the Archives
Speaker 3: to see it firsthand. But also, and again these are
Speaker 3: separate encounters that I'm having. Agency from DD agency from
Speaker 3: DOJ when they approached me, said we also want to
Speaker 3: talk to you about your research on triangles, and both
Speaker 3: these individuals separately said I'm currently reading your book, and
Speaker 3: they literally showed me the book, they had it in
Speaker 3: their hand. And so the point is that it's the
Speaker 3: research that I've done on triangles, the work we're doing
Speaker 3: on the historical archives and assembling what could arguably be
Speaker 3: upwards of one hundred thousand historic case files, both foreign
Speaker 3: and into MESSI. It is starting to generate official attention.
Speaker 3: People are starting to stand up and take notice of it,
Speaker 3: and we're continuing dialogue in those areas. But I know
Speaker 3: a lot of conspiracy theorists say, well, I hate to
Speaker 3: have all that material in one place. You know it's
Speaker 3: going to be an easy target for the government. Well,
Speaker 3: they're not flying in with black helicopters. They're not breaking
Speaker 3: in and stealing it. They're contacting me and politely saying
Speaker 3: can we come and can we look at the archives?
Speaker 4: We would like to see the material that you've assembled.
Speaker 3: So there's this collegial relationship that I'm trying to build
Speaker 3: with official DUM, which is gratifying because when I first
Speaker 3: and in fact the lectures out there on YouTube, I
Speaker 3: think you can find it when I was pitching the
Speaker 3: idea for the National UFO Historical Record Center, right before
Speaker 3: we got our five oh one C three status. I
Speaker 3: stated that I wished officials from the government would acknowledge
Speaker 3: and focus on pre two thousand and four. In other words,
Speaker 3: this phenomenon existed before the Tictak incident. But as you know, Martin,
Speaker 3: a lot of the official dialogue for several years now
Speaker 3: has been two thousand and four. Moving forward, well, arguably
Speaker 3: we have eighty years of data. And I mean we
Speaker 3: at the archives. We have the case files from NIGHTCAP,
Speaker 3: the largest civilian UFO organization that ever existed. We have
Speaker 3: all of their case files. We have the Center for
Speaker 3: UFO Study case files. We also one of the feathers
Speaker 3: in our CAP, which I'm very proud to say have
Speaker 3: rescued and now have made publicly available the lost APRO files.
Speaker 3: And so bringing all these case files, and those are
Speaker 3: the large ones, I have a list of about eight
Speaker 3: to ten other smaller collections as well. But bringing all
Speaker 3: this material together, I can tell you, Martin, from visiting
Speaker 3: researchers that have come, they've pulled the NIGHTCAP file on
Speaker 3: a case and then they thought, let me see if
Speaker 3: APRO had an investigation. And Jan Aldridge, who just moved
Speaker 3: out here, one of the leading historians on the subject,
Speaker 3: he just moved here two weeks ago to work in
Speaker 3: the archives. He was looking at a case from the
Speaker 3: nineteen fifties and he was looking at the Nightcap file.
Speaker 4: He goes, let me.
Speaker 3: See if APRO has anything. And for the first time,
Speaker 3: and from a research standpoint, think about this. For the
Speaker 3: first time, he had the ability to have the original
Speaker 3: NIGHTCAP file in front of him. Now having the original
Speaker 3: APRO file and no surprise to you or your audience,
Speaker 3: Nightcap interviewed witnesses, APRO didn't and vice versa, and Jan
Speaker 3: sat back. He had this epiphany. He sat back and
Speaker 3: looked at me and he said, for the first time,
Speaker 3: we're getting a holistic picture of this case because now
Speaker 3: we have these data sets that we can bring together.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 4: Very nice.
Speaker 2: And if you can digitize eventually, No, that's what you
Speaker 2: want to do, Yes, then think about what you could
Speaker 2: do with that we have. And thank you for saying that,
Speaker 2: because I wanted to go there. Our mantra, our unofficial
Speaker 2: mantra myself and my volunteers is centralization and digitization. We
Speaker 2: can't digitize all this until we centralize it. Well, we've
Speaker 2: done a pretty good job thus far of doing that.
Speaker 2: We now have the facilities, the workspace. We're talking to
Speaker 2: two or three different third party groups currently to secure
Speaker 2: significant funding with the express purpose of what you said, Martin,
Speaker 2: to digitize this material so data analysts can look at it,
Speaker 2: utilize AI technology. But the thing we want to do,
Speaker 2: and this is really a message for your audience and
Speaker 2: anyone that's listening, we want to take the physical files
Speaker 2: that we've preserved and now centralized, digitize it and our
Speaker 2: goal is to upload it for the worldwide community. Very nice,
Speaker 2: that's really nice. And you know this is for a
Speaker 2: preservation for the future. That's why I get really excited
Speaker 2: about this because I love historic things anyway, you know.
Speaker 3: On the history not as well as you know, both
Speaker 3: inside and outside of UFOs.
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, same here.
Speaker 2: So when when it comes to what you're what you're
Speaker 2: trying to do, and then you get contacted by you said.
Speaker 1: The d O D and the d D D, yeah,
Speaker 1: it just makes me wonder, what do you think they want?
Speaker 1: What do you think they wanted to find out?
Speaker 3: What do you think they want to look for a
Speaker 3: common theme. I don't want to go into too many
Speaker 3: specifics right now. Again, I don't want to, you know,
Speaker 3: talk out of turn. But I will be honest with you.
Speaker 3: Both groups again separately approaching me, which I thought was interesting.
Speaker 3: Interested they're both interested in triangles, they're both interested in
Speaker 3: the history put together. I will tell you that they
Speaker 3: both conceded very humbly. We don't know the history you do,
Speaker 3: and they're acknowledging that they need too much. As I
Speaker 3: said in twenty twenty two, we need to look beyond
Speaker 3: two thousand and four. And my response was yes, because
Speaker 3: if you're looking at this stuff for the first time,
Speaker 3: it's all new. The reality is everything that's being reported
Speaker 3: today with a fair degree of you know, totality, has
Speaker 3: been reported over the decades. In fact, I told Lou
Speaker 3: Elizondo once at a conference. I was sitting next to him,
Speaker 3: and I said, with all due respect to Lou, who's
Speaker 3: sitting here. When the five observables were announced, myself and
Speaker 3: my colleagues and probably yourself as well, Martin, we kind
Speaker 3: of chuckled because these these are nothing new. These are
Speaker 3: characteristics that are exemplified in all of the case files
Speaker 3: that we have.
Speaker 1: Right right, So, but here's the thing. What about going
Speaker 1: all the way back to when was it nineteen fifty two?
Speaker 1: When the first you know, government project was it Grunge?
Speaker 3: What was before well signed sign was project Sign end
Speaker 3: of forty seven begin beginning of forty eight. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: that was right off the bat.
Speaker 2: So I mean that is the government looking all the
Speaker 2: way back then into and so they should have like
Speaker 2: that part of the historic records themselves.
Speaker 3: They do, but they were surprised when I mentioned that
Speaker 3: we have some of the quote unquote Missing Blue Book
Speaker 3: files that are not part of the National Archives holdings,
Speaker 3: which were discovered in doctor j. Allen Heinez's collection. We
Speaker 3: have some of the files that are not part of
Speaker 3: the official record.
Speaker 1: So are a lot of the records in the National Archives?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yes, yeah they were.
Speaker 3: When Blue Bucks shut down in December sixty nine, they
Speaker 3: went to Maxwell Air Force Base where they were microfilmed
Speaker 3: and then later they were then transitioned to the National Archives.
Speaker 1: I see, and I know McDonald.
Speaker 4: What's his first name, James McDonald.
Speaker 1: James McDonald. His collections at a university is a University.
Speaker 3: Of Arizona in Tucson, and I highly recommend anyone that's
Speaker 3: interested in history or in James McDonald and his work
Speaker 3: please go there. And I only say that because They
Speaker 3: have a beautiful setup. I was there myself several years ago.
Speaker 3: I wish I had the time to go back, but
Speaker 3: I'm just very busy right now locally with the archive,
Speaker 3: our own archive. The staff there is extremely accommodating, and
Speaker 3: the amount of material that you can go through you
Speaker 3: could spend a lifetime.
Speaker 1: Wow, you know, I'm going to be there next week.
Speaker 4: I would recommend stopping in that area.
Speaker 1: I think I will. I think I will.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you would because you get to literally
Speaker 3: hold doctor James McDonald's original handwritten notes and you can
Speaker 3: listen to the recordings the interviews he did with witnesses,
Speaker 3: and it's just in fact I went there at the
Speaker 3: urging of Stanton Friedman. I told Stan several years ago
Speaker 3: I was going to start looking into the Farmington, New
Speaker 3: Mexico flying Saucer Armada from nineteen fifty and he looked
Speaker 3: at me and he goes, typical Stan. He had a
Speaker 3: little twinkle in his eye and he goes, you might
Speaker 3: want to check James McDonald's material. I think Jim looked
Speaker 3: into that back in the sixties and he was right.
Speaker 3: I found material. It really helped my research.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I missed Stan Boy he was.
Speaker 2: He was such a character and you know, and a
Speaker 2: lot of the new people that are getting into the UFOs.
Speaker 1: We'll talk a little bit about that later, but you know,
Speaker 1: they have no clue if you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's you know, he's been gone what four
Speaker 2: or five years now, and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was honored to have him here at
Speaker 3: my home. And I believe it was twenty sixteen or
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen he came to speak in Albuquerque and we
Speaker 3: were able to have him over along with some local
Speaker 3: UFO enthusiasts and it was a really nice time and
Speaker 3: I'll always remember that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I got to I got to visit with
Speaker 2: him and do a retirement show with him, and then
Speaker 2: he came back out of retirement.
Speaker 4: So well, he did what he enjoyed. Literally until he's right,
Speaker 4: you know, that's rights. He did what he enjoyed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. So so what do
Speaker 2: you have. You've watched the trends of you know, what's
Speaker 2: happening in the UFO world. Yeah, and I've seen, you
Speaker 2: know a lot of things happen as well. And the
Speaker 2: audience is stretched thin compared to because there's so many
Speaker 2: people in the UFO topic.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: I was at Contact in the Desert and I was
Speaker 2: sitting at a table and someone said, I think everyone
Speaker 2: at this table is a podcaster. And then there was
Speaker 2: a guy standing there and he goes, who in this
Speaker 2: whole you know, who in this whole conference is not
Speaker 2: a podcaster?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: It just seems like there's you know, there was very
Speaker 1: very few when I started, and now there's someone told
Speaker 1: me this five hundred. Now that might be an exaggeration.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm on the UFO topic. It's amazing how many
Speaker 3: podcasts are out there. And I will tell you one
Speaker 3: of the number one questions I get, why don't you
Speaker 3: do a podcast? And my response is I barely have
Speaker 3: enough time to bathe and feed myself as it is
Speaker 3: with my day job, my family and working at the
Speaker 3: archives and doing my historical research.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean if you were retired, that would be
Speaker 1: a different.
Speaker 4: Thing, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But but no, I leave the podcast to professionals
Speaker 3: like yourself, Martin. That's not my area of expertise, my
Speaker 3: my area. In fact, I was remarking very moved here
Speaker 3: from Colorado recently. He was with Colorado movein He's a
Speaker 3: dear friend and colleague, and he, much like jam which
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier, retired and literally moved from Colorado here
Speaker 3: to the Albuquerque area with the express purpose of working
Speaker 3: in the archives. I mean, we have people uprooting their
Speaker 3: lives to come and be part of this, which is
Speaker 3: truly humbling. But Barry and I have talked about, you know,
Speaker 3: the whole aspect of the history and the importance of
Speaker 3: getting it preserved.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's so great. And I you know
Speaker 1: we mentioned offline when we were talking about the archives
Speaker 1: in Sweden, right, that's.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, archives for the unexplained.
Speaker 1: Yes, and that's and that's cost fun or he has
Speaker 1: some involvement in it, I'm not sure.
Speaker 4: Yes, oh, yes, yes.
Speaker 1: Great guy. I've been on the show a number of times.
Speaker 1: I always enjoyed talking to him.
Speaker 3: They just celebrated i think their fiftieth anniversary of the
Speaker 3: last year or two, and so, you know, we really
Speaker 3: wanted to emulate what they've done. I mean, the idea
Speaker 3: of having an archive certainly is nothing new, but it
Speaker 3: is new specific to the United States. And I always
Speaker 3: like to let people pause for a minute and think
Speaker 3: about this. When you look at the organizations Martin that
Speaker 3: have been prolific names right in the history, Apro, NICAP, move.
Speaker 4: On, KUFOS.
Speaker 3: All of those were organizations formed with the express purpose
Speaker 3: of investigating and research. We've never had a large scale
Speaker 3: national archive dedicated to preservation of the history and making
Speaker 3: that history available to others. And so we didn't create
Speaker 3: a nonprofit just to create a nonprofit. I've got plenty
Speaker 3: of work on my plate already, but we felt there
Speaker 3: was a need, you know, we needed to fill that
Speaker 3: void here in the United States to preserve the history
Speaker 3: of the subject. Because as you know, going back to
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, as you alluded to, we've not only seen
Speaker 3: the general public wake up to the subject of UFOs.
Speaker 4: The reality of UFOs.
Speaker 3: We are now starting to see academia and a great
Speaker 3: example is the Soul Foundation. The PhD researchers that are
Speaker 3: part of that. They're starting to come into this and
Speaker 3: just recently I was invited date to be determined, but
Speaker 3: in the spring I'll be speaking at Yale University on
Speaker 3: the subject and the work that we're doing. So this
Speaker 3: is a sign of the times. But as I like
Speaker 3: to say, it's great that we have PhDs coming into
Speaker 3: the field, But where are you going to get your data?
Speaker 3: And I would argue a lot of that data resides
Speaker 3: at the National UFO Historical Record Center, Siting reports, radar reports,
Speaker 3: Commercial airline pilots, sidings, etc. Audio recordings, video recordings, photographs.
Speaker 3: We have every element of history, artifacts and relics from
Speaker 3: famous UFO cases, and so it's great that we have
Speaker 3: academia coming in, but we need to afford them the
Speaker 3: opportunity to access this critical data because we talk about
Speaker 3: a historical archive Martin, when I talked to the public
Speaker 3: school system, I was trying to convey this. We're not
Speaker 3: a World War two museum where we have uniforms on display.
Speaker 3: This is an historical archive that I want to put
Speaker 3: this forth to you in your audience. These are case files.
Speaker 3: These are all potential data points when we're looking at trends,
Speaker 3: patterns and correlations in the data. And as the DoD
Speaker 3: and DJ both articulated to me, we're getting current reports,
Speaker 3: but we want to compare them to what historically has
Speaker 3: been reported. It provides context for the contemporary reporting.
Speaker 2: Right absolutely, So when you get like a collection, I
Speaker 2: would think it would be impossible to save everything.
Speaker 1: How do you go through it and what do you.
Speaker 2: How do you decide what you want to preserve and
Speaker 2: what you shouldn't be preserving.
Speaker 3: Absolutely anything, I mean anything related to this subject. If
Speaker 3: it's directly related to the subject, we will preserve. But
Speaker 3: as you can appreciate, Martin, a lot of these families
Speaker 3: will send us collections, we'll find personal mementos. In fact,
Speaker 3: I'm glad you asked this question because I did not
Speaker 3: want to forget to mention this. About a month ago,
Speaker 3: about five weeks ago now, I had the incredible opportunity
Speaker 3: to meet Larry Lorenzen, the son of Jim and Coral Lorenzen,
Speaker 3: who founded Group. I had been trying to reach out
Speaker 3: to Larry since November twenty twenty three when we acquired
Speaker 3: the collection, and I failed every email I had, every
Speaker 3: phone number I had, it just they weren't valid. I
Speaker 3: did a podcast for a local university in Arizona, and
Speaker 3: as a result of that, a friend of Larry's heard
Speaker 3: it and said, hey, they're talking about your parents, and
Speaker 3: so he reached out through our website as a result,
Speaker 3: and then he and I met five weeks ago. But
Speaker 3: to your point, in going through the app profiles, I
Speaker 3: found this incredibly, incredibly beautiful Valentine and state card. It
Speaker 3: was very large from I believe it was nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 3: and it was from Jim Lorenzen to Coral Lorenzen, and
Speaker 3: it said, to my dear.
Speaker 4: Love, you know, I love him so much.
Speaker 3: And that has no relevance to UFOs, but obviously that
Speaker 3: has relevance to the family. So I brought that and
Speaker 3: I gave that to him.
Speaker 1: He had never seen it.
Speaker 3: And then I found and I did not know this,
Speaker 3: but Coral Lorenzen, besides raising a family and working and
Speaker 3: heading up APRO along with her husband Jim, she loved
Speaker 3: to do watercolor paintings. And we had a watercolor painting
Speaker 3: I found in the bottom of a box that had
Speaker 3: been tucked away for thirty five years. So I framed
Speaker 3: that and I presented that to Larry and it's now
Speaker 3: hanging in his office and his home.
Speaker 1: Wow, he must have just loved that.
Speaker 3: Well his comment to me when I was presenting these,
Speaker 3: he started tearing.
Speaker 4: Up a little bit.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you know, he was frustrated, as we all were,
Speaker 3: that his parents' legacy had been locked away for thirty
Speaker 3: five years. And when I presented these moments and I
Speaker 3: told him, look, we now have a public facility. Your
Speaker 3: parents work can now be accessible for everyone that's interested,
Speaker 3: and we don't charge for it. And he started tearing
Speaker 3: up and he said, Dave, he goes. This is heeled
Speaker 3: a very decades long wound for me, knowing that this
Speaker 3: material is finally available and to the public because that's
Speaker 3: what my parents wanted.
Speaker 1: Wow, that must make you feel so great.
Speaker 3: I was very proud, and I told him we're honored
Speaker 3: to preserve their legacy because literally it was their their
Speaker 3: it was their life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that's right. So when you were.
Speaker 2: Trying to preserve all these things, and there must be
Speaker 2: so many challenges. I think of the different things, the films,
Speaker 2: the posters, the anything. Everything's biodegradable basically, and you have
Speaker 2: to figure out how to handle these things, yes, or
Speaker 2: have other people handle and make sure that things aren't
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, yes, it must be really tricky.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we do cotton gloves, we do the acid
Speaker 3: free paper, we do all of the archival aspects. In fact,
Speaker 3: we just several months ago, not recently, but several months ago,
Speaker 3: we went through and we had correspondence from doctor Carl Young,
Speaker 3: between Apro and Carl Young, the father of Youngian psychology.
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of Carl Young fans out there,
Speaker 3: and so we now have all of his letters enclosed
Speaker 3: in this archival booklet where you can leave through and
Speaker 3: actually see the original letters to and from Carl Young,
Speaker 3: between Carl Young and Apro, and so just an incredible
Speaker 3: amount of history. We also have a letter from Lyndon
Speaker 3: Johnson when he was a senator. We have on a
Speaker 3: darker chapter, we have a letter from Joe McCarthy, believe
Speaker 3: it or not, Senator Joe McCarthy, and a number of
Speaker 3: other ones. We have a letter from Carl Sagan. We
Speaker 3: have a couple of letters from Gerald Ford, who was
Speaker 3: of course a state representative in Michigan when the sixty
Speaker 3: six sightings occurred. So, as I mentioned to some visitors
Speaker 3: that have come in, sometimes wives of husbands or husbands
Speaker 3: of wives that aren't interested in the subject, they still
Speaker 3: find fascination because even if you're not steeped in UFO lore,
Speaker 3: these are names that most people would identify with or recognize.
Speaker 1: Right. Wow, So.
Speaker 2: Let's see, I had a question here someone had posted,
Speaker 2: Oh yes, and I think it's a great one, and
Speaker 2: I know you're not going to want to answer it.
Speaker 2: If you had to pick out the most amazing thing
Speaker 2: in the whole entire collection and you could only choose one, Oh,
Speaker 2: what would that be?
Speaker 4: That is a hard one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I'll answer it with the understanding that there's
Speaker 3: probably three or four other items that would be like
Speaker 3: right up there with that. I would have to say.
Speaker 3: I alluded to this earlier. I loved the Battle of
Speaker 3: La incidents. Interesting chapter in World War two history. Arguably
Speaker 3: it's a chapter in UFO history. But I have an
Speaker 3: original Battle of La photo that was from the Associated Press.
Speaker 3: I obtained it from a gentleman in California that acquired
Speaker 3: a huge cash of original Associated Press photos from the
Speaker 3: forties all the way up through the sixties, and he
Speaker 3: was selling this one and I was lucky enough to
Speaker 3: win the bid on it. It has the original news
Speaker 3: teletype glue to the back, its stamps in red ink
Speaker 3: February twenty fifth, nineteen forty two, property of Associated Press.
Speaker 3: But the news clipping on the back is really telling
Speaker 3: because it states that there was a solitary, slow moving
Speaker 3: object that some sources thought might be a blimp or
Speaker 3: an aircraft. It was moving too slow. It gives the
Speaker 3: rundown of the Battle of La. But it's interesting because
Speaker 3: it was literally from that morning later, just hours after
Speaker 3: the incident. So that's one of my favorites. I really
Speaker 3: enjoy that one a lot, just because it really takes
Speaker 3: you back in time to that very morning.
Speaker 1: I believe you and I did an entire show on that.
Speaker 4: I think we did. Yes, now that you say number
Speaker 4: of your.
Speaker 1: Show, yes, that's right. Yeah, that is a fascinating one.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And someone had told me, I don't know if
Speaker 3: it's true. They looked up some of my lectures online
Speaker 3: on YouTube and they said the Battle of La is
Speaker 3: the highest viewership, the most clicks, the most views. Was
Speaker 3: the Battle of La lecture amazing.
Speaker 2: So someone just wanted to know how long would it
Speaker 2: take to go through all your material ours days, years?
Speaker 1: I would say years.
Speaker 4: That's a great question, ken.
Speaker 3: I had someone in just the other day and they
Speaker 3: said it would take a lifetime to go through all
Speaker 3: this material.
Speaker 4: And I think that's the answer to the question.
Speaker 3: My wife, Blowys remarks when we have someone come out
Speaker 3: for a weekend, she goes, you take all this for granted,
Speaker 3: you got to let people know that there's so much
Speaker 3: material here that you know, they really need to allow
Speaker 3: more time. They just can't come in for a day
Speaker 3: or two. And we've actually had people come back and
Speaker 3: make repeat visits. You know, they come in initially to assess,
Speaker 3: and then they come back with more specific ideas in mind.
Speaker 3: But it's just, as you can tell, as you can sense,
Speaker 3: it's my joy to be able to provide these materials
Speaker 3: to serious researchers and people that just want answers. In fact, conversely,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you this little comment. Someone came up to
Speaker 3: me from the city council about three weeks ago and
Speaker 3: they said, so, do you get a lot of UFO
Speaker 3: nutcases they.
Speaker 4: Come in here?
Speaker 3: And I said, actually not, And they looked at me quizzically,
Speaker 3: like really, I said, no, we really don't. We've had
Speaker 3: some very We've had PhD researchers, retired military, retired San Dille,
Speaker 3: Los Alamos, people come in general public, parents of students
Speaker 3: that are going to the school where we're based. But
Speaker 3: I said, but you've got to keep something in mind.
Speaker 3: The people that you're alluding to already think they have
Speaker 3: the answers.
Speaker 4: They know what UFOs are. They know why they're here.
Speaker 4: They can tell you how many species are here.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's so funny.
Speaker 4: People that the archive, like myself, are people that just questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's a good point. I would have never
Speaker 1: thought of that.
Speaker 4: I think you have the answers.
Speaker 3: It's aliens and it's these species, and this is why
Speaker 3: they're coming here, and they fly these types of ships.
Speaker 4: You don't need to do research.
Speaker 1: Yep, that's right, and run from those people exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: I always say it's like religion. If someone tells you
Speaker 3: they know what God wants for you run the other way.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So here's a basically Bob Blazar that. Yeah, Bob
Speaker 2: Blazar comes in all these shows, Hey Bob, how are
Speaker 2: you doing?
Speaker 1: Good to see it?
Speaker 2: So he wants to know about are you tracking? Is
Speaker 2: there anything in your archive about alien abductions?
Speaker 3: Great question, and yes, quite often I talk about the
Speaker 3: sighting reports. But I'm really glad Bob brought this question up.
Speaker 3: When we got the APRO files, we were not surprised,
Speaker 3: but I was to some degree that there were a
Speaker 3: lot of humanoid and abduction reports. Now, I say that
Speaker 3: for those that knew NICAP and APRO back in the
Speaker 3: day Nightcap had a little bit of a sampling bias
Speaker 3: when it came to cases. Don Keiho and others within
Speaker 3: the organization said, we can accept that there's strange objects
Speaker 3: moving in our atmosphere, but we're not going to deal
Speaker 3: with humanoids. We're not going to deal with entity reports.
Speaker 3: We're certainly not going to deal with abduction accounts. But
Speaker 3: this is where the two organizations differed. APRO said, yes,
Speaker 3: we're going to document all of that. So we not
Speaker 3: only have domestic, but a lot of South American abduction
Speaker 3: accounts in the APRO files, but also one of the
Speaker 3: smaller collections. I'll give a shout out to my dear
Speaker 3: friend Philip Mantle in the UK. Philip shipped his entire
Speaker 3: collection several years ago, her entire palette. We are integrating
Speaker 3: his files into our master case file collection. Both Philip
Speaker 3: Manna and another researcher when it is colleagues at the time,
Speaker 3: mister Andy Roberts from the UK, we have their files
Speaker 3: and their files contain a number of British UFO abduction
Speaker 3: related reports.
Speaker 1: Wow. That's amazing. Wow, that's it is part of it
Speaker 1: was a hard part for me to first, you know,
Speaker 1: go into When I started the UFO show, I said, Wow,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going to be talking about this.
Speaker 1: I've become open minded that it's all part of it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? There are just too many, Yes,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 3: It's much like it's much like citing reports can can
Speaker 3: can most be attributed to conventional explanations. Yes, but it's
Speaker 3: not that I summarily believe all the accounts. But equally so,
Speaker 3: I think if you're going to be an honest and intellectually,
Speaker 3: you know, curious person, you can't summarily discount all of
Speaker 3: them either.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, like we talked about earlier, class fun
Speaker 2: I have class on and I asked him the question,
Speaker 2: how you know do you hear about abduction cases there?
Speaker 2: And he says, very very few, he says, but the
Speaker 2: one that I really, you know, started talking about this
Speaker 2: is the police officer, very credible police officer and his
Speaker 2: wife were both sleeping and he wakes up and she's
Speaker 2: up off the ground and there's these beings there and
Speaker 2: he can't move. He's like completely paralyzed, and eventually he
Speaker 2: like yells or whatever, and she drops down on the
Speaker 2: bed and they take off and all that and you
Speaker 2: know that was like an attempt or something like that.
Speaker 2: And he says, I tell you, he says, I can't
Speaker 2: discount that one. That's just so, you know, so credible.
Speaker 3: And I'm glad we're having this conversation because something else
Speaker 3: I would like to mention, as it relates to the archives,
Speaker 3: we take all material related to the UFO subject. It
Speaker 3: doesn't matter if David Marler thinks there's credence to this
Speaker 3: aspect of the phenomenon. It doesn't matter if my chief
Speaker 3: archivist are, our volunteers do. Our attitude is it's all
Speaker 3: part of the history. Crazy, credible, and all things in between.
Speaker 3: So we don't try to be prejudiced or have our
Speaker 3: own prejudices that come in when we're collecting and collating
Speaker 3: this material. For example, we have a lot of Georgia
Speaker 3: Danmski contacting material from the nineteen fifties and a lot
Speaker 3: of his contemporaries. Some people scoff at that, but I
Speaker 3: know there's probably audience members that's listening to this that
Speaker 3: are fascinated with Georgia Damski and some of the contactes.
Speaker 3: I can give you my personal opinion, but when I'm
Speaker 3: there representing the archives. I'm just there as a curator.
Speaker 3: I'm here to help you find the material relevant to
Speaker 3: what you are interested in.
Speaker 2: That's great, So let's walk through what happens. Does someone
Speaker 2: contact you and they say, hey, I have a specific
Speaker 2: case that I'm interested Or do people say hey, can
Speaker 2: I just come and take a look?
Speaker 1: Do you ever have that?
Speaker 3: It runs the We have a lot of people that
Speaker 3: would just like to do a tour who come away.
Speaker 3: Quite often a sentiment we hear is I had no
Speaker 3: idea how much history there was to this subject, and
Speaker 3: so that's just music to our ears because I think,
Speaker 3: as you know Martin, quite often with television, with even
Speaker 3: discussions like this, sometimes we focus on the you know,
Speaker 3: highly popular cases bent Waters and those types of things.
Speaker 3: For every bent Waters, there's five hundred cases you haven't
Speaker 3: heard about that we have in our archives, in our holdings.
Speaker 3: These are cases that are yet to be you know, disclosed,
Speaker 3: to use that word that's overused in this field.
Speaker 4: A lot disclosed to.
Speaker 3: The general public. But we do have a lot of researchers.
Speaker 3: In fact, I got a contact from a gentleman in Wisconsin.
Speaker 3: His name is David Booher, and he wrote a book
Speaker 3: on a case from nineteen fifty nine called the Jerry
Speaker 3: Irwin case, and this was a gentleman that a military
Speaker 3: individual who went a wall.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 3: I got contacted by David Booher, who had written a
Speaker 3: book on it several years ago. But he said, Dave,
Speaker 3: I got a copy of the appro form that was
Speaker 3: done on it from nineteen fifty nine. But the thing
Speaker 3: I'm really looking for is on the report it says
Speaker 3: see tape. I'm really hoping there's an audio tape somewhere.
Speaker 3: I said, Well, we got thirteen file cabinets of appro
Speaker 3: files and materials, fifty boxes of material and included in
Speaker 3: that are roughly two hundred reel to reel recordings going
Speaker 3: back to the mid nineteen fifties and cassette recordings.
Speaker 4: He came.
Speaker 3: He flew from Wisconsin's with the express purpose to look
Speaker 3: for that tape, and I'm happy to tell you and
Speaker 3: your audience, Martin. He went into the room and I said, look,
Speaker 3: we've not even had a chance to organize those tapes,
Speaker 3: so don't worry about putting them back in any certain order. David,
Speaker 3: I said, but there they are.
Speaker 4: Have at it.
Speaker 3: I'm in the other room doing some digitization work, and
Speaker 3: the suddenly here Dave, he comes running in and he
Speaker 3: had a reel to reel from nineteen fifty nine and
Speaker 3: it had Jerry Irwin written on the outside, and long
Speaker 3: story short, we queued it up on one of the
Speaker 3: many real to real players that we have that are
Speaker 3: hooked up for digitization, and he and I sat there
Speaker 3: and listened to this interview with Jerry Irwin from I
Speaker 3: believe October November nineteen fifty nine. Jim and Coral Lorenzen
Speaker 3: are interviewing him in their living room in Alamagordo, New Mexico.
Speaker 1: Amazing.
Speaker 3: And the takeaway was he he get We digitized it, digitally,
Speaker 3: remastered it, threw it on a thumb drive.
Speaker 4: He went home. He wrote me about.
Speaker 3: Two or three days later he said, David, there is
Speaker 3: so much new material. I'm going to have to do
Speaker 3: a complete revision of my book now. And he was
Speaker 3: kind enough to do a transcript of the interview, which
Speaker 3: we then now put into the nineteen fifty nine case file,
Speaker 3: which we didn't have.
Speaker 1: Oh that's nice to have that.
Speaker 2: So Katie Page is kind of saying, I hear, hey, Katie,
Speaker 2: and she's basically saying that you that it blew open
Speaker 2: this Snippy case.
Speaker 4: Well, we didn't.
Speaker 3: Katie and Tony Angiola did the work, but we were
Speaker 3: facilitators and at least getting him in touch. Katie had
Speaker 3: the pleasure and I'm sure she would use that word
Speaker 3: if she was speaking right now, had the pleasure of
Speaker 3: literally going through the original Snippy case file that apro did.
Speaker 3: And as I mentioned to Katie and as I alluded
Speaker 3: to earlier, these files had been locked away for thirty
Speaker 3: five years. She was the first person with the express
Speaker 3: intent of getting into the Snippy file and reviewing that material.
Speaker 3: And I think I speak for her Tony as well
Speaker 3: as myself. There were goosebump moments when we were listening
Speaker 3: to some of these real to real, actual interviews from
Speaker 3: the time period, when we're looking at sketches and drawings
Speaker 3: of the I like to call it the crime scene,
Speaker 3: and photographs, tons of photographs from the original investigation. And
Speaker 3: Tony and Katie did the lion's share work of taking
Speaker 3: all that material and synthesizing it and truly for the
Speaker 3: first time, and I was honored. I got a chance
Speaker 3: to write the forward to the book, and I meant
Speaker 3: this sincerely for the first time in history we have
Speaker 3: this coherent, accurate retelling of the Snippy case with all
Speaker 3: of the original documentation to back it up.
Speaker 1: That's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had Haran recently and we talked
Speaker 2: about all that and that was yeah.
Speaker 1: But I saw the pictures.
Speaker 3: But my hat is off to Katie and to Tony
Speaker 3: because these are people that took the time and spent
Speaker 3: their own dime to come to Albuquerque and literally doing
Speaker 3: the work. People talk about research, and quite often when
Speaker 3: you start talking to these people, they're talking about surfing
Speaker 3: the internet. Katie and Tony were wading through all of
Speaker 3: these documents, all of these papers and trying to make
Speaker 3: sense because these files got mixed up over the years.
Speaker 3: But they were able to take those pieces of the
Speaker 3: jigsaw puzzle and put them together. And the book that
Speaker 3: they've written is I said it in the forward, it
Speaker 3: is the definitive book on this case.
Speaker 1: Very very good.
Speaker 2: Now, as far as books, people, someone's asking here are
Speaker 2: you accepting books that would really depend wouldn't it?
Speaker 4: It does? And thank you for asking. Rick.
Speaker 3: We get a lot of requests to donate books. I
Speaker 3: will tell you we're interested, but unfortunately we have to
Speaker 3: be judicious. In other words, if we can get an inventory,
Speaker 3: or people can snap pictures of the books on the
Speaker 3: shelf where we can look at the titles. The only
Speaker 3: reason I say this, Martin, is I'm sure you and
Speaker 3: your audience can appreciate. We've acquired a lot of collections.
Speaker 3: A lot of those collections had the same books, and
Speaker 3: we have an off site, a huge offsite storage warehouse
Speaker 3: where we have upwards of two hundred banker's boxes of
Speaker 3: nothing but duplicate books.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, for anybody.
Speaker 3: That would like to build their UFO library, if you
Speaker 3: want to come out and go through all those duplicate books,
Speaker 3: you're welcome to them.
Speaker 1: Wow, isn't that nice? But we've acquired well, have some
Speaker 1: you may have some takers on that.
Speaker 3: Well, we have upwards of ten to twenty copies of
Speaker 3: some of these old, rare books, but we just don't
Speaker 3: have the time to photograph, write descriptions, put them on eBay,
Speaker 3: sell them. We just simply don't have the time. So
Speaker 3: right now they're in deep storage.
Speaker 1: Wow. Hey, someone was just bringing up AI here. Yes,
Speaker 1: and how could AI help you in any type of way?
Speaker 1: Have you have you looked at an angle?
Speaker 4: We haven't explored it yet.
Speaker 3: This last year literally has been getting all of the
Speaker 3: files the archives organized, helping Katie and Tony and other
Speaker 3: researchers like David Booher doing tours. It's just been we've
Speaker 3: been drinking water out of a fire hose this last year.
Speaker 3: But I think that the short answer is, and I've
Speaker 3: said this several times recently in interviews, I feel that
Speaker 3: we're at a critical juncture in time Martin where we
Speaker 3: have decades worth of work on the part of these
Speaker 3: organizations and individuals that have collected the data, documented it,
Speaker 3: preserved these case files, and when you think about it,
Speaker 3: the KUFOS files resided in Chicago most of their life.
Speaker 3: The Nightcap files were in Washington, d C. Later Baltimore
Speaker 3: or in the Maryland area. We had the Apro files
Speaker 3: that were in New Mexico and then later Tucson. So
Speaker 3: all of these collections derived from different parts of the country.
Speaker 3: They're now brought together in one location, but for decades
Speaker 3: they languished in these file cabinets. What I propose is
Speaker 3: now that we have them all together, now that we
Speaker 3: have secured workspace, once we can get adequate funding, we
Speaker 3: will digitize all those Once they're digitized, we can manipulate
Speaker 3: and analyze and really start looking for correlations using these
Speaker 3: AI tools.
Speaker 4: And what I like to say is.
Speaker 3: Maybe we're at a unique moment in time where historical
Speaker 3: preservation meets AI technology and truly for the first time,
Speaker 3: we might be able to discern trends, patterns, and correlations
Speaker 3: in all of this data for the first time in history.
Speaker 2: Wow, amazing. Well I can't believe it. We're at the
Speaker 2: end of the show already.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: So I know that went so fast.
Speaker 2: Seems to always go fast, and I'll have to have
Speaker 2: you back, you know again, not wait so long this time,
Speaker 2: but well, yeah, it's always thank you David.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And on Saturday the eighteenth, we're going to have our
Speaker 3: community open house. If anybody's in the Albuquerque area, they
Speaker 3: love to come and tend our open house nine to
Speaker 3: five on Saturday, October eighteenth.
Speaker 1: Sounds great, Take care now, thank you?
Speaker 2: All right, okay everyone, So I will be back this
Speaker 2: Thursday night at eight pm with Joshua or Bertrand I may.
Speaker 1: Not do these Thursdays. It's a lot of work doing
Speaker 1: two shows a week.
Speaker 2: I may not be so consistent with the Thursday show
Speaker 2: you will Always see me here Tuesday night at nine pm.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much everyone, and remember to keep your eyes
Speaker 2: to the sky.