WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:07.599 Hey folks, Welcome back to another episode of the Ruby 2 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:11.480 Rogues podcast. This week, I'm your host, Charles Maxwood, and 3 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:18.960 I am talking to Ridwana Kahn from South Africa. Very cool. 4 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:21.719 I've always wanted to go down there and see different 5 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:25.160 areas down there. But anyway, you gave a talk at 6 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:27.199 Rails World. You talked about a whole bunch of the 7 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:31.879 internals on Ruby on Rails, and it looks like you 8 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:34.880 also help write the Rails guides, which is awesome. That's 9 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:39.359 one of the nicest things about rails is when I'm 10 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:41.079 talking to people and it's like, well, how do I 11 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:43.479 even get started? It's like, we've got these great guides. 12 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:46.799 Just go, you know, go spend a half hour or 13 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:48.759 so with them, and then you're pretty much off to 14 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:52.159 the races. So why don't you go ahead and introduce 15 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:53.960 yourself as far as anything else you want people to 16 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:56.799 know about you, why you're popular or famous and all 17 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:57.359 that stuff. 18 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:03.439 Yeah, So I'm Ridwana, like you mentioned, I'm a technical 19 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:08.280 writer for the Rails Foundation. I've been helping to improve 20 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.200 the official Ruby on Rails guides for the last year 21 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.879 or so. I'm also a lead engineer at a company 22 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:18.840 called Circle where I focus on building tools that empower 23 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:25.400 creators and communities, and I have about over a decade 24 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.359 of experience in software development. Over my career, I've worked 25 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:33.560 mostly within the Ruby and Rail space as well as JavaScript. 26 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:36.480 I think if I had to sum up the things 27 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:39.719 that I'm passionate about, it would be making code more 28 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:43.040 accessible through documentation, and that's why I write the Ruby 29 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:48.680 on Rails guides, thought for engineering, and just inclusive community building, 30 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:52.280 which is why I work at Circle because there are 31 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:59.480 community building platform and I've built many communities over my career. 32 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:01.879 I try to both communities where I see a gap. 33 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:05.239 So the most obvious one is sort of the woman 34 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.599 in Tech gap. So over my career I've both communities 35 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.439 like women in Tech. I've both Rails goals in South Africa, 36 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:17.759 Rails Bridge, Black Gull's Code Ladies that You Ax, which 37 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:22.039 is the intersection of a development and user experience. So 38 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:26.919 just really passionate in that space. And on a personal note, 39 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:30.560 if I'm not coding, I'm trying to keep an eye 40 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:34.240 on my ever growing collection of house plants and trying 41 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:39.719 to keep them alive. They're constantly dying. I also really 42 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.520 enjoy traveling and going to speak at conferences. It's one 43 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:47.120 of my favorite things to do. And finally, just hanging 44 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:53.080 out with my very opinionated feline peer programmers or per programmers, 45 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:56.240 Zoe and Zeus. If you watch my talk at Rails World, 46 00:02:56.360 --> 00:03:01.319 you've seen some really goofy photos of them. Yeah, it's 47 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:02.000 basically me. 48 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:10.360 Very cool. So I have you Circle before? We used 49 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:12.319 it for I try to set up a community for 50 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:17.719 the podcasts, and I tried it out, so yeah, that's cool. 51 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:19.000 I didn't know they were a rail. 52 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:23.280 Shop, so yeah. And before Circle, I was at dev 53 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:26.879 dot two also known as Forum, also a community platform. 54 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:31.000 So I've just been moving around community platforms recently. 55 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:34.120 Right, Yeah, I was going to say I'm detecting a trend. 56 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:37.639 So I am curious as we dive in, right, because 57 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.560 I think a lot of times when we talk to people, it's, oh, 58 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:44.520 you're doing this very cool thing with code. And I'm 59 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:46.560 sure you do cool things with code. I'm not trying 60 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:49.680 to say you don't. But the thing that's interesting to 61 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:52.560 me is I think a lot of people don't really 62 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:55.120 think about, Okay, what goes into the documentation, what goes 63 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:58.520 into the rails guides and things like that, and I'm curious, 64 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.439 how did you get involved there? Did you just I 65 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:05.199 don't know, go tell the foundation, Hey, you need to 66 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:08.639 fix the easer. I don't know what will happen there. 67 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.919 No. I think around last year, I want to say 68 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:19.040 around January twenty twenty four, Amanda from the Rails Foundation 69 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:24.480 was actually looking for writers to work on the Rails 70 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:28.519 Foundation Ruby on Rails guides, and so they put out 71 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:32.839 a post to say they're looking for two freelance writers 72 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:37.279 to work on the Ruby on Rails guides. And during 73 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:41.480 that time, I was sort of between different gigs and 74 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:45.319 I'd been using the Ruby on Rails guides a lot, 75 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:49.120 and so I decided, why not let me apply and 76 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:55.199 see how it goes. And yeah, I started writing for 77 00:04:55.279 --> 00:05:00.639 the Rails Foundation myself and another writer, Boomy. We started 78 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.600 off and we worked with a couple of other peoples 79 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:07.240 to people to review the guides, and that's how it 80 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:08.079 all got started. 81 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:18.920 Very cool. So is that paid or are you doing 82 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:20.279 it because you love us? 83 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:24.160 I mean, I'm doing it because I love y'all and 84 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:27.199 I love the guides and I love what I do. 85 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:29.839 But it is also paid, Okay? 86 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:30.079 Cool? 87 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:33.800 Yeah? 88 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:35.879 I mean I had I guess I hadn't really thought 89 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.040 too much about it, but now that I'm thinking about it, 90 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:41.480 I'm like, oh, wow, so are there because the guides 91 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:43.680 have been around for a while, are there any new 92 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:46.480 guides or is it mostly just updating what was already there? 93 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:51.959 So initially we started with updating what was there, but 94 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:56.639 when Rails eight got released, we had a couple of 95 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.800 new guys that we needed to implement, and we've done 96 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:05.120 that as with the release. So it's a combination of both. 97 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:08.240 We look at the old guides, we audit them, we 98 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:11.439 see what needs to be updated, and we update them. 99 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:14.519 But then we're also as Reels releases new features, we 100 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:21.000 go in and we create new guides. Also, if contributors 101 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:25.040 create prs for new features, sometimes that means we go 102 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:28.879 through the pull requests and we update the guides with 103 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:30.879 new information on new sections. 104 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:35.759 Gotcha, So how much time are you spending every week 105 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:36.680 working on the guides? 106 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:42.560 So we put a pause a little bit recently is 107 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:44.920 the new year started, but I'll be begin it up 108 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:51.240 again later this month. I spend around I want to say, 109 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:55.480 I forget the actual number of hours because we've put 110 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:57.560 a pause on it for the last three months and 111 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:02.480 we're just starting again, but I think it's around two 112 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:06.160 in two hours a week. I stand to be corrected. 113 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:07.639 It's been a while. 114 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:12.959 Uh huh, that makes sense. And what's the process. So, 115 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:16.399 I guess the process is different if you're auditing versus 116 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:18.920 writing new ones. But yeah, what does the process look like? 117 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:22.680 Yeah? So, I mean I don't do a lot of auditing. 118 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:27.040 We have a specific contributor that helps with the auditing, 119 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:32.720 so Patrick Patrick Hosh he does the auditing of the 120 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:35.399 guides and a lot of the reviewing of the guides. 121 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:39.560 But essentially what he does is he comes in, he 122 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:44.439 audits them, he checks which ones we need to update, 123 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:48.079 and then once he's audit audited it, we use base 124 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:52.720 camp and we basically keep track of which guides need updating. 125 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.959 Then one of the writers will go in and they'll 126 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:01.079 look at the existing guides. The trick will already have 127 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.800 some notes in on what he thinks can be improved. 128 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:06.879 We look at it with fresh eyes. We then decide 129 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:10.759 what can be improved from our side. Sometimes that's how 130 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:13.759 I started diving into the source code. I dive into 131 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.240 the source code see how the internals work, because I 132 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:19.759 feel that if you really understand how the internals of 133 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:22.839 Rails works. Then you're able to explain the things better. 134 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:27.720 Once that's done, we send out a PR. It goes 135 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:32.399 through internal review first within our team. Once internal review 136 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:35.360 is done, we then create a PR for the open 137 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:38.519 source community to be able to review the guides. Maybe 138 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:41.759 they pick up some areas or gaps that we may 139 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.039 have missed, and then finally we emerge it. 140 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:53.679 Very cool. So are they in the Rails repo or 141 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:54.879 are they somewhere else? 142 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:59.200 Yeah, so they're in the Rails repot and usually we 143 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:03.360 encourage which open source contributors to have a look through them. 144 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:08.600 The guides are marked with a label RF docs and 145 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.080 it has a label sorry in the title. We usually 146 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:15.799 have a prefix rf docs and then it has a 147 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:19.200 label Rails Foundation. So if you're trying to find any 148 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:21.759 of the docks, you can do that, and we really 149 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:25.200 encourage the Rails community to review them because it means 150 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:28.519 that if you're learning Rails, or even if you've been 151 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:33.279 using Rails for a long time, you basically know we 152 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.320 some of the gaps lie what you've struggled with, and 153 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:38.600 when you review them, you can bring some of their 154 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:41.559 fresh perspectives to our prs. 155 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:48.200 Right, makes sense. So yeah, I'm curious how deep into 156 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:50.559 the internals have you gotten, because I mean your talk 157 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:53.399 was a half hour, so you didn't get too deep 158 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:56.919 into things, But it sounds like you spend a bit 159 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.960 of time looking at how RAILS is actually put together 160 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:00.799 under the hood. 161 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:06.399 Yeah, I think. I mean, depending on what guide I'm 162 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:10.320 writing at the time, I then dive into the internals, 163 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:13.559 and sometimes it requires a deeper dive. Sometimes it doesn't. 164 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:17.759 I feel like when you're writing documentation, it's not really 165 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:20.720 enough just to describe what a method does in a surface. 166 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:23.320 You need to understand how it works, why it behaves 167 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:26.480 the way it does. And that's taken me to some 168 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:29.799 of the more complex parts of RAILS are code based. 169 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:34.440 So for example, in the talk I talk about mime types, 170 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.600 I've traced through how RAILS handles the different mind types 171 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.879 using math. Missing I've done. I've dug really deep into 172 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:46.399 active recorde associations because that's a very big part of 173 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:51.240 RAILS as well when you're writing applications, so things like 174 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:55.960 the definitions of the dynamic methods and so on, I've 175 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.559 looked at I think I mentioned in the talk, as 176 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:02.519 well as validations. So RAIL uses like the dynamic callbacks 177 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:05.080 things like that. I've dove into some parts like that, 178 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.559 and I think that the most common pattern is just 179 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.919 the meta programming aspect of it. Right, So trying to 180 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:18.679 find those patterns across the different parts of Rails or 181 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.600 components in Rails and then trying to understand it a 182 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:24.720 little bit better. The Rails codebase is really huge, and 183 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:29.679 there's like always more to learn, but the magic is 184 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:34.000 beginning to feel a little bit less like magic is 185 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:36.039 you start understanding more of it. 186 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:42.480 Yeah, I mean it seems like we've talked to different 187 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:47.159 people about metaprogramming on this podcast over the years, and 188 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.240 so yeah, a lot of what you put up there 189 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:52.240 was like I was like, oh, I see how that works, 190 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.759 and yeah, so I can kind of get the idea 191 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:58.799 that yeah, it feels a whole lot less magic and 192 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.399 a whole lot more. Oh. You know, this is a 193 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.639 tool that we used, and you know, and so it's 194 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:07.080 able to you know, for example, you know when it's 195 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.600 defining methods using defined method right, it just puts things 196 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.879 in place, It does the work. And one thing I 197 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:17.240 hadn't thought of with the mind type mind type is 198 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:19.360 you define the method and then you just call it. 199 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:23.240 I was like, oh, that that makes sense. So yeah, 200 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.279 I really liked that, and really liked just the clean 201 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:29.600 approach to explaining how all this stuff works. 202 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:34.759 Yeah, I think the main aspect really and again I 203 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:38.320 have to emphasize it's the patterns. Rails is a lot 204 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:41.559 of magic. But once you identify some of the patterns, 205 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:44.759 and once you understand how meta programming works, you sort 206 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:49.600 of start putting these puzzle pieces together and you're able 207 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:53.720 to understand the code a lot better. And then you'll 208 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:56.799 see with the different components, there'll be one pattern here, 209 00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:59.399 and then it's applied in this different place. And what 210 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:02.279 I tried to also do within the talk is show 211 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:07.159 how those patterns are applied across the different components. So 212 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:10.039 if you understood it in one component, you can go 213 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.879 and dive into a different component and it has very 214 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.679 similar patterns. And once you think of it like that, 215 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:20.960 it feels a lot more approachable. Because when I started 216 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.720 off in rails, and even like up until a few 217 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:27.879 years ago, I there was all this magic happening in rails. 218 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:32.960 So when you reach a point of like, hey, I'm 219 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:35.639 doing this thing, but it's a little bit more complex, 220 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:39.519 and now Rails isn't playing nicely with me. You don't 221 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.919 really know where to go from there. But if you 222 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.559 try reading the source code or you try looking into 223 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.519 how Rails is actually working, you're able to move past 224 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:56.039 that blocking point and do more complex things. I mean, 225 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.279 ideally you don't want to break away from the magic, 226 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.519 but unfortunately there is real of it is when you 227 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:07.360 both complex applications, you end up needing more tools under 228 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:10.279 your belt, and I feel like understanding the code base 229 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:11.639 is a tool under your belt. 230 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.039 Yeah, that makes sense for me. What I found was, 231 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.399 as I've learned, I learned Rails first, and then they're 232 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:23.679 Ruby later. As far as like what all the other 233 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:25.519 things are that Rails kind of makes it so you 234 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:29.399 don't have to deal with right off the bat was 235 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:32.679 I would build stuff and then yeah, I would get 236 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:34.919 stuck on something right It'd be like, I don't know 237 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:38.159 why it is doing this, Why is it acting this way? 238 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:41.759 Why is it, you know, doing this thing to whatever 239 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:45.960 it is that I'm trying to work on. And it 240 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.519 it became pretty apparent once I started to learn Ruby. 241 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.080 It was like, oh, it's doing this because Ruby works 242 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:55.759 this way, and so it's just using the Ruby mechanism 243 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:59.120 to do the thing. And so yeah, I love that 244 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:01.879 idea of saying, Okay, look go look at the internals. 245 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:05.159 It may be something you haven't done before, but it's 246 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:11.399 it's not a mystery, it's not complicated or hard. It's just, 247 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:14.320 you know, it's something that maybe you need to learn 248 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:15.919 a little bit more about. And then you look at 249 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.639 it and you go, huh, Okay, this is where this 250 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:20.559 is coming from. This is why I have this the 251 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:21.240 way that it is. 252 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.559 Yeah, And another aspect of it is that when you 253 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.000 go through the Rails code base, you're also not only 254 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:34.759 learning about Rails itself, but you're potentially learning how to 255 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:40.000 solve problems elegantly. Right. So, Rails does solve problems elegantly 256 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:45.759 and very often when we're working on our features within 257 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:51.320 whatever application or companies were working for with you solving 258 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:57.240 similar problems in just different use cases or different forms. 259 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:01.039 And so by going through the Rails code base, you 260 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:05.000 were able to also learn problem solving skills. 261 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.879 Yep. Absolutely, So let's talk about some of those skills 262 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:11.240 or some of the things that you've seen in the 263 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:16.240 code base. You kind of went straight to metaprogramming, and 264 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:19.240 I've seen plenty of people over the years basically talk 265 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:23.919 about how metaprogramming is scary or you can get yourself 266 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:28.240 into trouble with it. I don't know how do you 267 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:33.039 feel about that argument about using metaprogramming or not. 268 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.840 I think that using meta programming, I think you're going 269 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:43.639 to have a lot of people saying meta programming is 270 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.799 the best, and some people saying that you shouldn't use 271 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:51.639 meta programming. I think that there's a use case for 272 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:57.240 meta programming. Meta programming is a superpower and it can 273 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:01.639 lead to really elegant, expressive code, but it also can 274 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:06.440 lead to very scary and intimidating code that's very hard 275 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:12.480 to follow. So I appreciate meta programming, but I also 276 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:15.559 respect that it has a lot of complexity and it 277 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.039 can make code harder to debug, especially if you're not 278 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:22.279 familiar with the patterns, or if it's overused without like 279 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:27.480 clear naming or clear direction. So I wouldn't say that 280 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:33.079 I feel strongly that everybody should use meta programming. I 281 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:37.200 think that meta programming needs to be used based. I 282 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.799 think metaprogramming has a place, and depending on your use case, 283 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.319 meta programming may be a good fit. But if you're 284 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:48.240 using metaprogramming for any for everything, you may just be 285 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:50.480 over complicating things. 286 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.079 M hm, yeah, I think that's I think that's a 287 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.160 fair way to put it. I do a lot of 288 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:00.240 work on my cars or my house or whatever, and 289 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.720 what I found is that most of the time, you know, 290 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:08.359 just just the regular tools work right, you know, and 291 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:10.480 even if I pull out the power to tools, right, 292 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:13.200 they work. But occasionally I've got to open up a 293 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:17.640 wall with a saw, or I've got to use some 294 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.119 other tool that, yeah, you know, may have some safety 295 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:23.480 hazard to it or something if you're not using it properly. 296 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:28.359 And that's the way I think about metaprogramming is is 297 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.240 you know, you don't want to take more out of 298 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.519 the wall than you have to, so to speak, you know, 299 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:36.759 you don't you have to be careful not to hurt 300 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:40.599 yourself with it. Sometimes the code can be hard to 301 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:44.799 debug when you're using metaprogramming, and so, yeah, you know, 302 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:47.640 what I find is most of the time when I'm 303 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.839 reaching for something like metaprogramming, I am doing something on 304 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.279 the level of rails, right, And so what I'm doing 305 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.400 is I'm actually using it to provide myself with the 306 00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:59.480 pattern I want to see in my code, and so 307 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.880 that winds up being in like the lib folder, you know, 308 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:05.720 somewhere else where. It's it's not code that I'm going 309 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:08.480 to go touch all the time, and it's not code 310 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:12.960 that I'm using to solve all my major problems. What 311 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:16.319 I'm doing is I'm just basically using the metaprogramming to 312 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:18.559 create a better tool for me to solve the problem. 313 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:24.119 Yeah, and I think I think your example, by the way, 314 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.319 was great about how you do work around why I 315 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:30.119 work around the house, and sometimes you need to bring 316 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:34.559 out the right tools. In my talk, I talk about 317 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.599 like a real world use case where we use meta programming, 318 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:39.920 which I think is really valuable. So when I was 319 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.480 working at dev dot two or known as forum as well, 320 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.880 we were building of course community software, and we needed 321 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:53.599 a way during onboarding to letter from communities define custom 322 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:58.480 profile fields for their members. So, for example, in the talk, 323 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:01.799 I use the example of a go gardening community, and 324 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.519 for a gardening community, during onboarding, we may want a 325 00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:10.839 profile field that a user can enter their favorite plant, 326 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:15.240 or a developer community might ask if you're available for hire. 327 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:19.920 So these fields need to be highly customizable, and they 328 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:22.920 might need to be dynamically edited at run time. They 329 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:28.160 also might support different data types like strings, booleans, dates, etc. 330 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.680 So rather than hard coding a bunch of different profile 331 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.759 attributes that are different for different communities, we use mata 332 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.880 programming to dynamically define gatters and setters for the custom 333 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:46.000 fields is the community has created them, and it meant 334 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:49.200 that communities could define as many custom fields as they 335 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:51.640 want and the system would just respond. There were no 336 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:56.240 migrations or extra model code or no like hardwired logic. 337 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:59.559 It just made the system really flexible. And I feel 338 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.519 like that's a great example of how meta programming is 339 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:06.039 used in a real practical way to solve a problem. 340 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:10.359 But like you say, I feel like they are very 341 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:17.079 like meta programming. In my career, I think that's probably 342 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:20.559 like one of the very few cases I've needed to 343 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.680 use metaprogramming, And maybe there's like one or two others, 344 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:30.000 But over ten years you're mostly building standard applications that 345 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:34.319 don't necessarily require that level of customization, right. 346 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:41.160 Yep, absolutely, So what other things have you found going 347 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:43.400 back to rails internals, What other things have you found 348 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.079 that maybe you wanted to add to the talk but 349 00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:49.200 didn't have time or have thought were interesting that people 350 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:51.640 don't really see or know in the Rails codebase. 351 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.440 I think there's so many gems no pun intended in 352 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:02.400 the Rails hood base. One of the things that I 353 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:05.759 really enjoy about, like exploring the rail's internals, is seeing 354 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:12.160 how thoughtfully things are architected. So when you like how 355 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:17.960 it gives you a whole ecosystem of dynamic methods. How 356 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:24.759 things are named really well, such as very thoughtful processes, 357 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:29.920 how things sorry very thoughtful naming. Also how the different 358 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:35.920 components are well separated, things like how well the code 359 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.559 is documented. I think that's really a superpower. If you 360 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:43.799 go through the Rail's code base, you'll find sort of 361 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:52.359 method definitions, you'll find how the Rails API documentation is 362 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.720 within the code base, and you can see what the 363 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:58.559 different methods are doing. So I think there's a lot 364 00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:04.519 of sort of other practices that the Rails team uses 365 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:10.480 within their sort of actual development, and I found a 366 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:15.359 lot of those useful alongside the matter programming aspect and 367 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:21.799 the great architecture. I also think so may one more 368 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.640 thing to air the like the PR. I found that 369 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:31.640 when I'm writing documentation, I also sometimes tend to go 370 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:35.160 through like the open issues or poor requests to see 371 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:38.400 did someone touch on this. Maybe there's something I don't 372 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:41.480 really understand and I want to understand it better, but 373 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:44.920 maybe the rail's code base doesn't provide as much information. 374 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:49.880 I find that when I go through poor request reviews 375 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:55.759 or even issues, contributors and the core team are very 376 00:23:56.519 --> 00:24:00.599 for both about explaining things. They do a really great 377 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:07.559 job about articulating themselves and working together to form a solution. 378 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:11.640 So it's really nice to go through poor requests, to 379 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.319 go through issues, and I really encourage people to just 380 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.559 if you're not contributing to rails, or you're not reviewing 381 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:22.920 documentation prs or even just normal rails code, like just 382 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:27.960 browsing the issues and the poor requests casually can provide 383 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:32.279 a ton of information and useful knowledge. 384 00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:40.720 Makes sense. So do you have any advice for people? 385 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.880 Let's say that you know somebody. I mean, I have 386 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:46.759 to admit I haven't really contributed to rails. I think 387 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:51.240 I've I've filed bugs. I think I've maybe put in 388 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:55.119 one poor request in my whole life against rails. So 389 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.119 if somebody wants to get involved and they're sitting there 390 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.839 and they're thinking, okay, well, I just want to understand it, 391 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.200 you know, and maybe they want to contribute to the docs, 392 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:04.799 or maybe they you know, just want to understand things 393 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:08.359 better and you know, maybe help with some little thing 394 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:10.799 here or there. Like where do you recommend that people 395 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:13.319 start with the RAILS code based to just understand what's 396 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:15.799 going on in there? Yeah? 397 00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.960 I feel like I am so I get so excited 398 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:24.759 when someone asks me this question. I'm biased, but I 399 00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:29.160 feel like starting with documentation is a really good way 400 00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:33.640 to get into contributing to RAILS or just understanding things better. 401 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:38.759