1 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Federalist Radio Hour. 2 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 2: I'm Joy Pullman. The executive editor here at The Federalist. 3 00:00:22,679 --> 00:00:25,120 Joining me today is Megan Basham. She is a culture 4 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,640 reporter for The Daily Wire and the author of the 5 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,160 new book out this week, Shepherd's For Sale. 6 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: Meghan, welcome, Thanks for having me. 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:33,039 Speaker 3: It's great to be here. 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 2: Could you start by explaining for our listeners why all 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,320 Americans should care about the state of evangelical churches, even 10 00:00:40,359 --> 00:00:42,079 if they're not a member of such a church. 11 00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 4: Yes, so, you know, there's a very big reason to 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,079 care about evangelicals because there are a lot of them. 13 00:00:49,359 --> 00:00:53,240 They're about thirty percent of the US electorate. They have 14 00:00:53,359 --> 00:00:57,439 rightly been called America's most powerful voting block, and in 15 00:00:57,479 --> 00:00:59,920 a lot of ways, if you're a political conservative, they 16 00:01:00,119 --> 00:01:03,200 serve as the firewall or a lot of the policies 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,840 that the left has been interested in advancing, whether that 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:12,359 is on things like climate change initiatives, or on immigration policy, 19 00:01:13,079 --> 00:01:17,239 or on DEI initiatives, things of that nature. You will 20 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:20,680 again and again kind of see those evangelicals act not 21 00:01:20,719 --> 00:01:24,319 only as the most conservative voters, but as the voters who, 22 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,879 by their very nature of being so big, are the 23 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,439 ones that create this last fortress, as I call it 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,840 in the book Hell Our. 25 00:01:34,719 --> 00:01:38,519 Speaker 2: Listeners a little bit about George Soros and others similarly 26 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,359 anti Christian, big money going to manipulate churches into functioning. 27 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,319 It sounded like to me basically like community organizers for 28 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,159 leftist politics rather than a worship and religious organization. 29 00:01:50,959 --> 00:01:53,519 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, it's so fascinating, isn't it. Because George 30 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:56,920 Soros himself an atheist. I also talk a lot in 31 00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:00,439 the book about Pierre Omitiar, who is a left wing Buddhist. 32 00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:03,000 So neither of these men in any sense of the 33 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,200 word Christians, and yet they have both become very interested 34 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:11,479 in funding Christian initiatives. Typically I would call them front groups. 35 00:02:11,719 --> 00:02:14,280 So around twenty thirteen, just to give you an example, 36 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,919 one of the program directors at George Soros's foundation, Open 37 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,360 Society started to talk about, well, we keep running into 38 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,960 this problem of Christians, in particular when it comes to 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,159 getting particular policies across the finish line, and what we 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,080 need to do is harness the power of religious life 41 00:02:33,159 --> 00:02:36,000 because this is not going to go away. So at 42 00:02:36,039 --> 00:02:38,879 that point they talked about how they could do things 43 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:44,439 like distribute more grants to faith leaders how they could 44 00:02:44,599 --> 00:02:49,039 engage in communication campaigns. So what I would call astroturfing 45 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,599 is what we're seeing. And at that point you began 46 00:02:52,759 --> 00:02:57,759 to see organizations like the Secular Left and Geo National 47 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:05,199 Immigration Forum help create the Evangelical Front Group Evangelical Immigration Table. 48 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,000 And I use this example because it's very emblematic of 49 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,599 what you see on a number of subjects. But so 50 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:15,159 Sourus helped launch the National Immigration Forum. Some of his 51 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,240 money went to a program that the Evangelical Immigration Table 52 00:03:19,319 --> 00:03:22,879 was involved with. And while it has this faith based name, 53 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,240 its work is in no way which you would typically 54 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,840 view as ministry, So it doesn't go to spreading the 55 00:03:29,879 --> 00:03:34,360 gospel or telling illegal immigrants about Jesus or feeding and 56 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,080 clothing them. It's specifically political in nature, and it is 57 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,879 a lobbying organization and what it does is connect pastors 58 00:03:42,199 --> 00:03:45,000 to lawmakers and do on the ground mobilization. 59 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,479 Speaker 3: So I think saying community organizer is a very opt term. 60 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: And what ways do is Shepherd's for Sale a kind 61 00:03:52,039 --> 00:03:56,759 of counterpoint to Atlantic reporter Tim Alberta's The Kingdom, the 62 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,400 Power and the Glory, which, in good faith I did 63 00:03:59,479 --> 00:04:01,479 try to read that book, and I just couldn't make 64 00:04:01,599 --> 00:04:03,360 my way through more than about a third of it. 65 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,759 So I found it very interesting though, to kind of 66 00:04:07,759 --> 00:04:09,560 think about them side by side. And I'm sure you're 67 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,680 probably getting a couple of questions about that as well. 68 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'll be honest, I did read it. While 69 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,439 I was working on the book. I read that one 70 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,480 and a number of other books that were just like it, 71 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:21,439 because there has been a cottage industry of books saying 72 00:04:21,439 --> 00:04:26,279 that evangelicals sold their soul to grasp for power by 73 00:04:26,319 --> 00:04:27,800 supporting Donald Trump, and this. 74 00:04:27,879 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 3: Is one of those books. 75 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,519 Speaker 4: And largely what I would say about Tim Alberta's book 76 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,839 is I find him to be a strong narrative writer. 77 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,839 So to that end, it is full of a lot 78 00:04:39,879 --> 00:04:45,399 of stories, and he will attend sort of fringey organizations 79 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,360 and follow fringe pastors and then use those to pretend 80 00:04:50,399 --> 00:04:53,199 that that is the mainstream of evangelicalism, which I would 81 00:04:53,199 --> 00:04:53,800 disagree with. 82 00:04:54,879 --> 00:04:57,199 Speaker 3: And in fact, I also know the background on. 83 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 4: Some of those stories and know that he got them. 84 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,000 But what I do in my book is a little different, 85 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,360 So I didn't want it to just be stories, So 86 00:05:06,439 --> 00:05:10,000 I do have some stories in it that are meant 87 00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:15,079 to exemplify how these influences coming into the church are 88 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,639 impacting the people in the pews. So I have a 89 00:05:17,639 --> 00:05:21,879 lot of stories of ordinary churchgoers. But what I more 90 00:05:22,319 --> 00:05:25,439 was interested in was tracing that money trail and showing, Okay, 91 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,279 here are the actors. Here is the documentation showing how 92 00:05:29,319 --> 00:05:33,040 they have gotten involved with a lot of these evangelical groups, 93 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,279 how they have propped up and even created these evangelical groups. 94 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,079 And here's sakers who are involved with them are then 95 00:05:40,319 --> 00:05:44,279 turning around and talking about policy in the public sphere, 96 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,680 and how they interact with large, well known secular media outlets. 97 00:05:48,959 --> 00:05:51,079 So one of the figures I talk about a lot 98 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,920 in this book is Russell Moore, is now the editor 99 00:05:54,959 --> 00:05:59,199 in chief at Christianity Today and has become a prime 100 00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:03,839 internal critic of evangelicals who supported Donald Trump, to the 101 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:06,920 point that you even saw the New York Times dubbing 102 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,000 him a dissenter trying to save evangelicals from themselves. So 103 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,920 he's been lionized in the secular press, and that was 104 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,120 part of what I wanted to trace, was how the 105 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,639 press has used some of these figures to also try 106 00:06:22,639 --> 00:06:24,199 to influence the evangelicals. 107 00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:29,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so I actually have worked a little 108 00:06:29,079 --> 00:06:32,319 bit in my reporting history with Marvel ALASKI attended some 109 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,000 of his you know, journalism training, so I think I 110 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,680 saw a little bit of the hallmarks of his sort 111 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,839 of training. And you for listeners, you know, Megan worked 112 00:06:40,879 --> 00:06:43,600 at World Magazine before she went over to the Daily Wire, 113 00:06:43,879 --> 00:06:45,560 and so one of those hallmarks I think is the 114 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,959 what you're talking about here, the follow the money, just 115 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,560 doing basic reporting, but you're talking about you know, people 116 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,480 who follow the politics game are really aware by now 117 00:06:54,879 --> 00:06:57,279 of the fact that all these large leftist you know, 118 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,839 billionaires and their funders they create kind of these shell 119 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:03,920 corporations or shell nonprofits, and that makes it harder to 120 00:07:03,959 --> 00:07:06,079 follow where the money is coming from because a lot 121 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,560 of the figures such as Soros are controversialized for good reasons. 122 00:07:11,199 --> 00:07:12,639 Speaker 1: But it also kind. 123 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,639 Speaker 2: Of confuses people, right because if they're just able to 124 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,680 change the names, then they're able to use the same 125 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,680 people to shed the bad image that they may have 126 00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:23,079 from the past and make following that harder. So I 127 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,079 found it very curious. I wonder, are you do you 128 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,839 think that you're feeling kind of have been feeling kind 129 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:30,480 of a niche role here and doing that traditional sort 130 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,120 of follow the money journalism, but applying it to the 131 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:34,240 religious fere I do you know. 132 00:07:34,279 --> 00:07:35,759 Speaker 1: I know World Magazine does some of. 133 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,439 Speaker 2: That, but there's not a lot of that being done, 134 00:07:38,519 --> 00:07:41,560 as you point out, in media even overall, they've largely 135 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,000 abandoned a lot of that old fashioned journalism, but especially 136 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,879 I think you know in the religious fhere, you know 137 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,160 that even lacks lacks that maybe to a degree more 138 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,680 than the traditional media that isn't religious. 139 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,319 Speaker 4: Yes, And you know, one of the things I would 140 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:01,120 say is that where you saw that niche where it 141 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,959 used to be filled somewhere like Christianity today, that institution 142 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,879 has so changed in character that no, it no longer 143 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,680 does that work. And in fact, some of the religious 144 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,879 outlets that are doing this work are themselves beholden to 145 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,480 these left wing foundations. For example, the Religious News Service, 146 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:23,839 which is a wire service that is frequently used by 147 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,040 the Washington Post and Christianity today. It purports to cover 148 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,959 these things, but is itself, I would say, very left wing. 149 00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:33,759 And part of why it's very left wing is because 150 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:37,159 it takes funding from groups like the Artists Foundation, which 151 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,559 have pledged to change Christian doctrine on matters of the 152 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,000 LGBTQ movement and what they would call LGBTQ rights, and 153 00:08:46,039 --> 00:08:48,679 I think you see that very clearly reflected in their reporting. 154 00:08:49,039 --> 00:08:53,399 Now that said, I do see a lot more understanding 155 00:08:53,799 --> 00:08:57,960 of the importance of covering evangelicals and what's happening in 156 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:02,120 evangelical churches and ministry when it comes to these larger 157 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:07,320 cultural issues and policy questions. Because having just spoken about 158 00:09:07,399 --> 00:09:11,000 Tim Alberta at The Politico and Atlantic and many many 159 00:09:11,039 --> 00:09:15,120 other reporters at the New York Times and the Washington Post, 160 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,960 it has been no end of frustrating to me how 161 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,559 much coverage I have seen from those outlets and from CNN, 162 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,559 and yet for whatever reason, conservative media was a lot 163 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,679 slower to get to covering these issues. And I think 164 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:36,080 part of it, understandably was that conservative media tends to 165 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,279 be more Catholic, so there wasn't maybe the background of 166 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:43,000 understanding about who are these people, what's driving them? And 167 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:45,120 then the other part of it was I think there 168 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,480 was just a feeling like these are our people. 169 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:48,159 Speaker 3: They're safe. 170 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 4: We don't really think about how they may be being 171 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,480 impacted by false narratives that are being pedled in the 172 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:55,399 secular media. 173 00:09:55,759 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: So I add something real quick there. You have something 174 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,639 that you mentioned in the book. I think within the 175 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,519 Christian I mean, I would call myself an evangelical, but 176 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,320 I'm an LCMS member Lutheran Church Missourisan and so anyway, 177 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:10,440 so it's not like broadly evangelical, like you know, go 178 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,799 into worship church with a lot of praise songs typically, 179 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,519 although that does happen, but the point being within, you know, 180 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,559 within that sphere, people also have a hesitancy. 181 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: To critique their religious leaders. 182 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:22,519 Speaker 2: It's seen as being unkind, it's seeing as breaking the 183 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:24,360 Eighth Commandment, you know, in Lutheran. 184 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: Circles and so the so you talk a lot about 185 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:27,600 that as well. 186 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,159 Speaker 2: Why don't you kind of respond to that, as you 187 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,519 do in the book with what's the kind of Christian 188 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:37,360 apologetic for really airing the dirty laundry of your own people? Right? 189 00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:40,799 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I kind of jokingly have Ephesians five 190 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,759 eleven in my Twitter bio, which is exposed the deeds 191 00:10:43,759 --> 00:10:46,799 of darkness, don't cover them up. And that's part of 192 00:10:46,799 --> 00:10:50,799 what I think I'm doing here because what we see 193 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,679 in I'm a Southern Baptist and we have a joke 194 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,480 among the Southern Baptists about the unspoken eleventh commandment is 195 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,440 thou shalt not criticize evangelical leaders. 196 00:11:01,879 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: And I think that held very. 197 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,039 Speaker 4: Strong for a long time, and really it was the 198 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:07,679 pandemic I think that took it down. 199 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: But as far as an apologetic. 200 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,159 Speaker 4: I just don't see a biblical justification for saying, let's 201 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:20,960 let these unbiblical legalistic influences flourish, because it seems somehow 202 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,159 unloving or unkind to acknowledge that it's happening. In fact, 203 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,919 I would say in scripture we would see the exact opposite. 204 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,679 You have Paul saying. I confronted Peter to his face 205 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:34,559 when he started bringing in legalistic doctrine that was requiring 206 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,480 the gentile believers to follow Jewish law and follow the 207 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,039 dominant culture around them. He said, that's not biblical. I'm 208 00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:43,759 going to confront you to your face. We also see 209 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,639 him doing that with some lesser characters in the Bible. 210 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,080 When he has a problem with something Alexander the Coppersmith 211 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,120 is doing, he directly calls out Alexander the copper Smith. 212 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,440 So to this day we know who Paul was talking 213 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,440 about right there, And so I think that is the 214 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,120 model that we need to be following, which doesn't mean. 215 00:12:02,039 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 3: That you are divisive. 216 00:12:06,279 --> 00:12:11,159 Speaker 4: You're not calling anyone's salvation into question. And you do 217 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,440 occasionally see people go too far and you go, okay, well, 218 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:16,240 let's not be screaming you're not a Christian at each other. 219 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,200 But it is a question, I think, a fitness of leadership, 220 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,440 and it matters how fit our leaders are. And so 221 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,759 it's reasonable to be having these discussions respectfully and graciously, 222 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,159 but to be having them weird. 223 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 5: How no one's going after CrowdStrike after their transportation meltdown. 224 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,480 The Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every 225 00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:41,279 day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the 226 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,919 economy and how it affects your wallet, while Pete goes 227 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,679 after airlines like Delta. No one's saying a word about CrowdStrike. 228 00:12:47,879 --> 00:12:51,960 Remember when CrowdStrike also said Hillary's server was hacked by Russians. 229 00:12:52,039 --> 00:12:54,080 Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 230 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,320 it's affecting you financially. 231 00:12:55,399 --> 00:12:55,919 Speaker 3: Be informed. 232 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 5: Check out the Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris 233 00:12:58,159 --> 00:13:01,480 Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or you get your podcasts. 234 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:06,879 Speaker 1: Welcome back to that in a little bit but I 235 00:13:06,919 --> 00:13:09,399 wanted to you first. I'd like to be. 236 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,639 Speaker 2: Before we get kind of into some of the analysis 237 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,720 of what you've written, to kind of just further explicate, 238 00:13:15,759 --> 00:13:17,120 you know, kind of some of the things that are 239 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:18,720 in the book for listeners who haven't. 240 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:19,159 Speaker 1: Yet bought it. 241 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 2: So if you would, let's start with something you mentioned earlier. 242 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:25,600 Let's give our listeners a short synopsis, if you would, 243 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,399 on the decline and fall of Christianity today and the 244 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,679 extent to which you think that Russell Moore, as you 245 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,639 mentioned and now It's executive editor, is he a symptom 246 00:13:33,799 --> 00:13:36,120 or a cause of that collapse or maybe both. 247 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 4: I would say primarily a symptom, because certainly Christianity today 248 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,480 was already following that trajectory before Russell Moore moved over 249 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:48,000 there a couple of years ago. I would say they 250 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,639 were just very much like minded travelers. And when you 251 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,279 look at what happened with Christianity today, it's sort of 252 00:13:55,279 --> 00:14:00,000 a multi pronged issue. One, it did start relying more 253 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,000 on money from secular foundations and was perhaps less responsive 254 00:14:05,039 --> 00:14:09,159 than to the subscribers that it should be catering to. 255 00:14:09,879 --> 00:14:13,159 At that point, it was taking large donations from the 256 00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:17,080 Lily Endowment, and those donations have been specifically to things 257 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,799 like crafting preaching content, So how will pastors approach something 258 00:14:21,879 --> 00:14:27,240 in terms of ideological preaching or how do they craft 259 00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:28,000 their messages? 260 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: So that's when I get a little. 261 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 4: Concerned when secular foundations are going, here's how we're helping 262 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:37,840 to craft the content of these organizations. And then on 263 00:14:37,879 --> 00:14:41,720 top of that, I think you did have newer left 264 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,000 wing staff coming in. And I did a story and 265 00:14:44,039 --> 00:14:46,360 I talked about this in the book where I looked 266 00:14:46,399 --> 00:14:50,600 at the political donations of Christianity Today's staff, and there 267 00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:54,360 were about seventy four donations between twenty fifteen and twenty 268 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:58,960 twenty two, including editorial staff and the board and CEO 269 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,200 to Dallarymple, and all of them went exclusively to Democrats, 270 00:15:03,679 --> 00:15:07,399 including some pretty hard left candidates like Elizabeth Warren, who 271 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,840 has wanted to shut down all crisis pregnancy centers. So 272 00:15:11,159 --> 00:15:16,039 it's a little astonishing to see Christianity Today editorial staff. 273 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,879 So that was the news editor who was donating to 274 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,080 Elizabeth Warren as he was writing stories covering the twenty 275 00:15:23,159 --> 00:15:27,399 twenty campaign. So that's just surprising when you look at that, 276 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,519 you go journalistically, there's some ethical problems there, but also 277 00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:34,320 as a Christian it's a little shocking. And then the 278 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,360 third thing was something that former Christianity Today editor in 279 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,960 chief Mark Galli brought up, and he wrote about how 280 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:48,440 Christianity today became so sensitive to mainstream media respectability. 281 00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 3: And he talked about how when. 282 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 4: The New York Times would positively notice them, how just 283 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,559 a thrill would go through the newsroom. And so because 284 00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:03,840 of that, they began to issues, particularly questions of doctrine 285 00:16:03,879 --> 00:16:09,440 in really one sided ways, and example of complementarianism, or 286 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,240 the belief that God has reserved different roles for men 287 00:16:12,279 --> 00:16:15,200 and women, and the pastorate is reserved for men. And 288 00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:19,679 he said, because the idea that the pastorate was reserved 289 00:16:19,679 --> 00:16:23,039 for men was an anathema to our culture, it became 290 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,159 an anathema to us. So we may not have written 291 00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:29,600 an essay where, you know, we came out very strongly 292 00:16:29,759 --> 00:16:34,639 against women in the pastorate, but we would subtly feature 293 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:38,159 essays from women pastors and we would only interview those 294 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,840 women pastors. And in this way it became very clear 295 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:46,720 that we were staking a position that was in line 296 00:16:46,759 --> 00:16:48,080 a culture would have taken. 297 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:52,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, this sounds very similar to another story I was 298 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,240 going to ask you to kind of talk about. I 299 00:16:54,279 --> 00:16:59,360 consider it a bombshell revelation, the one about pastor and Andy 300 00:16:59,159 --> 00:17:02,039 Stanley up as a kid listening to Charles Stanley, you know, 301 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:03,240 on the radio all the time. 302 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: So but you know this, so his son Andy was. 303 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: Telling privately your book shows you know, other megachurch and 304 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:15,079 large church pastors to be basically secretly pushing their congregations 305 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:19,319 into supporting homosexual and transsexual behavior, which I mean, as 306 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:21,759 probably all of our listeners know, they ought to. You know, 307 00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:24,000 the Bible explicitly condemns that sort of thing as sin. 308 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:27,839 Can't really be a pastor and be supporting that. So 309 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,839 can you kind of give some more background in detail 310 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,400 to that story which I found just really shocking him 311 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,160 using that influence that his father and he amassed over 312 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,799 their lifetimes to basically push, you know, something that is 313 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,279 explicitly anti Christian. 314 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, And you know, for those who may not 315 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,720 know Charles Stanley, his father was a well known figure 316 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:56,039 in the moral majority, a revered pastor, he was kind 317 00:17:56,039 --> 00:17:59,599 of a pioneer in Christian media, and so Andy Stanley 318 00:17:59,599 --> 00:18:02,359 had a pretty big leg up when he came into 319 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,519 pastoring himself, and he's incredibly influential. He has a wide ministry, 320 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,880 not just to your average Christian, but he's very well 321 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,240 known for influencing other pastors. 322 00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:14,799 Speaker 3: He puts out a lot of books of training for 323 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:15,519 other pastors. 324 00:18:15,559 --> 00:18:20,319 Speaker 4: He does large conferences to teach other pastors how to 325 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,279 do what he does. So he really brings a lot 326 00:18:23,279 --> 00:18:25,480 of young guys along to follow in his footsteps. 327 00:18:25,519 --> 00:18:26,279 Speaker 3: So when he does. 328 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:29,759 Speaker 4: Something like this, that's not a great thing for the Kingdom, 329 00:18:29,839 --> 00:18:33,359 at least in the US. So what he had been 330 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,200 doing is one just being very cagy and fuzzy about 331 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,720 what his position on homosexuality was. There were some odd 332 00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:45,160 statements that he first started making around twenty twelve, you know, 333 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,440 that made some of that Christian media that we just 334 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:50,559 discussed go excuse me. I think World wrote a story 335 00:18:50,599 --> 00:18:52,359 on it at the time, going, well, hold up, did. 336 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:52,599 Speaker 3: He just. 337 00:18:54,039 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 4: Say this man who left his wife in his church 338 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,480 was in sin not just because he was because he 339 00:19:02,519 --> 00:19:04,400 was getting divorced, But he didn't bring up the fact 340 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,039 that he was cheating with another man. 341 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 3: Which should also be a sin. 342 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 4: So these kind of things just set off alarm bells 343 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,799 for people and then a few years ago he started 344 00:19:13,799 --> 00:19:17,960 disclosing privately to some pastors. Well, I've really shifted positions. 345 00:19:19,039 --> 00:19:23,160 I maybe shouldn't let my heart determine my theology, but 346 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,880 I have begun to do that. He said that, you know, 347 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:29,440 I haven't performed a gay marriage, but maybe if you know, 348 00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:32,519 my granddaughter asked me, which I don't think. I don't 349 00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:34,160 know anything about his granddaughter, by the way, it was 350 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,240 just the example he gave. 351 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 3: Maybe if a family member my granddaughter. 352 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:43,039 Speaker 4: Asked me, I might And so this was when you 353 00:19:43,079 --> 00:19:45,599 talk about that eleventh commandment. This was known by a 354 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,799 lot of pastors. He was saying this quietly and they 355 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:51,400 weren't talking about it. And at the same time he 356 00:19:51,559 --> 00:19:58,759 started funding his church, started financially supporting and just in 357 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:03,960 counseling support too, giving advice to this new program that 358 00:20:04,079 --> 00:20:09,119 is explicitly LGBTQ affirming, called Embracing the Journey, that is 359 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:15,319 for the parents of Christian parents of LGBTQ identifying children. 360 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,079 And this curriculum has been unrolling to churches across the country, 361 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,680 including some really well known churches like Saddleback. So Andy 362 00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:27,680 Stanley's church has been financially supporting it and He just 363 00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:33,880 held a conference last September that featured openly same sex 364 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,480 married couples, and all of this was done in this 365 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,279 very positive way of saying, well, we just want you 366 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,920 to understand their perspective. So that's kind of how he 367 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,000 hedges his bets. But in these private conversations it's pretty 368 00:20:46,039 --> 00:20:49,839 clear what's been going on. And then on top of that, 369 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:57,640 this embracing the Journey curriculum and ministry they would call it. 370 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,359 I hate using that term for them, but this embracing 371 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,799 the Journey ministry. Has also been very involved with a 372 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:10,799 left wing funded organization called the Reformation Project, who has 373 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,519 openly said that its purpose is to reform Christian doctrine 374 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,920 in every denomination, no matter how conservative, to become affirming 375 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,240 of LGBTQ sin. So they don't say sin, of course, 376 00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:29,720 but behavior and identities. So his church members, his staff 377 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,480 pastors have been involved with that group. That group has 378 00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:39,519 a confidential Pastors in Process program that teaches affirming pastors 379 00:21:39,799 --> 00:21:44,960 how to secretly and quietly move their Bible believing congregations 380 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,119 in affirming directions. 381 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 3: So it's really just a start. 382 00:21:49,839 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: Of as in Sheep's clothing, right, I know, I mean 383 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,920 I think it was a little family comes in thinking 384 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,079 that their Bible, believing they trust these people, you know, 385 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,359 this pastor, they go to this church, and at the 386 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,920 end of however, for many years, they find out, you know, 387 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,799 he's been pushing them in this direction, want a betrayal 388 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,119 of the people and the sheep that they ought to 389 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:07,759 be protecting. 390 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,599 Speaker 4: Yes, you said it very well, and I'm glad you 391 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,079 stepped in because that was where I was going exactly. 392 00:22:13,079 --> 00:22:14,279 Speaker 3: I just wasn't quite getting there. 393 00:22:14,319 --> 00:22:16,799 Speaker 4: But that was the point, is that it's astonishing and 394 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,480 it should be a bombshell, and yet somehow it wasn't. 395 00:22:20,559 --> 00:22:24,640 Because when I spoke to a couple of pastors about it, 396 00:22:24,319 --> 00:22:27,960 they confirmed that, yes, I have had these conversations with 397 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,759 Andy Stanley, but they didn't want to go on the 398 00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:32,000 record because they said they didn't want to get political. 399 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 2: I've had that happen multiple times when you know, reporting 400 00:22:35,839 --> 00:22:38,279 on my own church for the same reasons you outlined 401 00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:41,640 where you know, I mean, the situation has been on 402 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,119 the federal list right for example, the most recent one is, 403 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,839 you know, we have a professor drummed out of a 404 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,480 you know, Lutheran college for opposing Marxism while you know, 405 00:22:50,519 --> 00:22:54,119 the colleges have unrepented you know, for example, racially segregated 406 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,279 student unions available on their campuses, right, And so that's 407 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,559 actually that sort of asked the behavior you write about 408 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,519 a lot. And I'm very just curious about the dynamic 409 00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:08,319 theory because there's that kind of culture of secrecy, that niceness, 410 00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:10,640 that afraid you know, where they know that someone who 411 00:23:10,759 --> 00:23:14,519 in a position of major leadership is leading the flock 412 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:16,880 off a cliff, you know, leading them into the lions den, 413 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,000 and they won't even put their name on that public 414 00:23:19,079 --> 00:23:22,119 here for the sake of the sheep. That's really to 415 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,440 me as a parishioner, that's that's shocking. 416 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: It's disqualifying. 417 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 2: Frankly, Yeah, I mean, I mean, and I mean the 418 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,960 shocking thing to media going through your book, and you know, 419 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,519 as not being a Southern Baptist, you know, I learned 420 00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:37,200 a lot more about the inner workings of a lot 421 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,519 of those churches. But you name all of these names, 422 00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:41,759 and that's some of the most gutsy hist reporting I've 423 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:45,079 seen ever on the church, and that's it's really impressive. 424 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,839 I'm curious about some of the reactions that you have 425 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,599 gotten to your your choice to be that aggressive and 426 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,519 name names and put details and facts behind stories of 427 00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,039 you know, basically doing work that other church leaders should 428 00:23:58,039 --> 00:24:00,160 be doing as well. 429 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,799 Speaker 3: You know, it's been a mixed bag, as you might expect. 430 00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 4: I've gotten a ton of encouragement from the ordinary Christian 431 00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:09,400 in the pew like me and who felt these things 432 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:10,000 starting to. 433 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 3: Happen around twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, and then. 434 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 4: Really saw it going to overdrive during the pandemic. So 435 00:24:16,839 --> 00:24:18,720 there's been a lot of atta girls there of people 436 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:21,880 who see exactly what I have seen and have emailed 437 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,880 me and DMed me and texted me saying this is 438 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,559 what I experienced, this was my story. So I had 439 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,400 just so many more that I could ever possibly use 440 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,759 in this book, and I had it was really painful 441 00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:35,000 to just pick and choose some of them, because, man, 442 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,880 you want to tell everyone's story. But on top of that, 443 00:24:39,599 --> 00:24:44,640 the institutional response is not surprising, and yet somehow when 444 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,119 the ferocity of it comes at you, it can still 445 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,279 somehow surprise you even though you. 446 00:24:49,319 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 3: Knew it would come. So, you know, some of the 447 00:24:52,279 --> 00:24:53,839 things I have seen in. 448 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 4: Just the last few days as the book was coming 449 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,960 out has been exaggerating my position to suggest that I'm 450 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,319 saying someone's not a Christian if I critique them in 451 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,079 the book, or to I frankly, I just saw this 452 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,880 with a Wall Street Journal editorial board member just tweeted, well, 453 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,440 if you are saying that Tim Keller is a shepherd 454 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,880 for sale, there cannot be anything serious about this book. 455 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 3: And I'm like, Okay, well on, and you have. 456 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 4: No idea, You've got to read it what my critique 457 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:25,160 of Tim Keller is. 458 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,079 Speaker 3: And also, you know, a title can. 459 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 4: Have various news. So yes, there are some who are 460 00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:36,920 directly taking funding from left wing foundations to push particular 461 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,160 policies in churches. But there can also be a metaphorical 462 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,519 sense of for sale in that maybe you have shifted 463 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:50,240 positions or you've softened your stance publicly for cultural adulation. 464 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,400 That can also be a sort of selling. And anyway, 465 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,359 so that kind of thing has surprised me, just a 466 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,039 literalness and the outright rejection if you touch one of 467 00:26:01,079 --> 00:26:06,680 these anointed pastors. And then you know, some of it 468 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,119 also has been a little sneaky in that you I've 469 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,559 seen statements being put out saying we did not take 470 00:26:12,599 --> 00:26:16,200 money from George Soros, as if to suggest that I 471 00:26:16,319 --> 00:26:19,519 was being untruthful when I will go, I did not 472 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,759 say that your organization took money from George Soros. I 473 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,920 said you are involved with this other group that took 474 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,680 money from George Soros. So it's like they're denying something 475 00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:31,880 I did not write. And that sort of thing has 476 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:37,920 not been surprising, but it, I guess, just the duplicity 477 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,960 of it has shocked me a little bit coming from 478 00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:43,039 some of these organizations where I still thought we could 479 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,720 have an open debate about what's been going on. 480 00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: Well, does it make you feel a little bit like 481 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:48,480 we might? 482 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:51,519 Speaker 2: I mean, especially with like the cultural Marxism being another 483 00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:54,240 period similar to the early nineteen hundreds and. 484 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: On kind of battle for the Bible right. 485 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: Over when the you know, seminaries were basically making a 486 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,880 choice between do we believe that the Bible is actually 487 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,240 God's sacred inspired word, that every word of it is 488 00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:07,680 reliable and true, and the mainline denominations among others you 489 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,000 know who basically said no, it's a metaphor. You know, 490 00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:12,759 we can cut in paste, like Thomas Jefferson basically you 491 00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:15,519 know their membership, you know they're dinosaurs and they're dwindling 492 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:16,200 now and. 493 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: This seems I mean, what do you you know? 494 00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:20,279 Speaker 2: It seems like, you know, the cultural Marxism struggle sessions 495 00:27:20,319 --> 00:27:22,400 that churches are having all over the place that you're 496 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,359 documenting seems a very similar inflection point most of your 497 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:26,920 sense of that. 498 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 4: No, And I think that's a really astute observation, because 499 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,240 what it feels like is that the points of contention 500 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:40,480 have moved on from some of those first order doctrinal issues, 501 00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:45,319 Like you will hear extremely liberal pastors who are who 502 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,000 would put a rainbow flag on their church and all 503 00:27:50,039 --> 00:27:51,799 of the rest of the kind of crazy clips you 504 00:27:51,839 --> 00:27:55,519 sometimes see on Twitter. They will say, well, I affirm 505 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,319 the virgin birth, I affirm the risen Christ. So they 506 00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:02,920 will actually unlike and say Jay Gresham Machen's time. I 507 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,519 agree with these basic doctrinal issues. It's all the other 508 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:08,880 parts of the culture, the cultural parts of the Bible 509 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,599 that they don't agree with anymore. In terms of gender, sexuality, marriage, 510 00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:17,200 there being no jeue or gentile and it's really a 511 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,599 new kind of false gospel. And you don't have to 512 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,480 just totally refute the gospel to have something false. If 513 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,279 you add to it or take away from it, then 514 00:28:27,319 --> 00:28:30,079 you're also creating something false. And you brought up the 515 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,359 cultural Marxism, and I think when you look at how 516 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:38,119 so many of these institutions did bring in this idea 517 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,519 that Christians who with white skin, and you saw pastors 518 00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:46,119 saying this be forever guilty of racism, that it would 519 00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:49,480 not there was an actual the provost of one of 520 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,319 the largest seminaries in the country said, I will always 521 00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:55,359 be a racist because of his whiteness. 522 00:28:54,839 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: Because Jesus can't save that soon. 523 00:28:57,039 --> 00:29:00,519 Speaker 4: Right, And that is just an astonishing thing to say. 524 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:01,279 Speaker 3: Doctrinally. 525 00:29:01,559 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a batteaming Christ and what he's done. 526 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,039 Speaker 4: I think it's the same thing that we saw in 527 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:10,079 the twenties. It's just on slightly different ground now. 528 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that brings me to another thing that I 529 00:29:13,079 --> 00:29:14,880 think is a parent in your book. And there's a 530 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,000 tension now, is in that battle for the Bible days 531 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:20,039 between the fact that the Christian Church we do need 532 00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:23,759 a leadership class. We need pastors, we need theologians, we 533 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:28,039 need professors and teachers, people with more legitimate credentials, more 534 00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:31,160 years of training and education than the average lay person 535 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:32,720 needs to have for their vocations. 536 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:34,599 Speaker 1: But you know, our leadership. 537 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,599 Speaker 2: Classes often trained credentialed and and culturated by institutions that 538 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,319 flat out hate Christians and what we believe. So how 539 00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:42,799 do you think that Christians should deal with that tension 540 00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:45,000 and the fact that it can, you know, as a 541 00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:47,400 reporting shows, it can lead our church leaders to sell 542 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,240 out their flocks to theologies of Satan. 543 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, that is a really complicated question, and 544 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,319 I'm hearing a lot of discussion among some of these 545 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,599 young theologians who are asking should we just have our 546 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,079 own churches training the pastorate? And you know, I don't 547 00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:06,000 really weigh in on that, and I'm not sure myself. 548 00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:08,519 It's something I'm thinking through, but I do think it's 549 00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:11,039 a significant problem, and we have to ask, Okay, how 550 00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:15,400 do we put these guardrails up? And is it even 551 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:19,039 possible to solve this problem? Because what you seem to 552 00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:22,759 see is the pattern in the Church of really sound 553 00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:27,799 institutions are built, and because of their soundness, they flourish, 554 00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:30,640 and because they are flourishing, wolves come in and then 555 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,759 over time they overrun the institution, and then the sound 556 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,240 doctrinal believers leave and build a new institution, And it's 557 00:30:38,319 --> 00:30:39,519 just this ongoing cycle. 558 00:30:39,799 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 3: And I don't know if there is a way out 559 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:42,279 of that cycle. 560 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 4: Or if it's just what we're seeing right now. I mean, 561 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,400 certainly some of these seminaries. To me, while I've been appalled, 562 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:51,000 it's some of what they've been doing that. 563 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 3: I detail in the book. 564 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:55,599 Speaker 4: I also know that there is a lot of really 565 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:04,319 trustworthy and sound professors and faculty that are worth learning from. 566 00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:08,519 Speaker 2: So maybe somewhere to employ them, pay their side, make 567 00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:10,200 it possible for them to teach people. 568 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: So where is that place, right? 569 00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:14,799 Speaker 4: And so maybe my word to them is, you know, 570 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,640 I'm not sure what to tell you guys, other than 571 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,720 you need to fight for your institutions a little bit 572 00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:22,440 harder and maybe have to make some people uncomfortable. And 573 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,759 you know, again, part of what I did see as 574 00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:27,039 I was doing this reporting was that there would be 575 00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:31,279 a lot of people on these faculties that knew what 576 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,640 was going on and were discomfited by it, but they 577 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,680 just didn't really want to address it. And so we 578 00:31:37,759 --> 00:31:39,960 also need to, I think, have a little bit more 579 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:42,880 of a theology. 580 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,279 Speaker 3: Of confrontation, and that we don't have that that. 581 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: Would have helped a lot in COVID, for example. You know, 582 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,000 and I think maybe like you're mentioning some some There's 583 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,960 been some development in that direction since COVID, like you're mentioning, 584 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,000 but people are still feeling it out and trying to 585 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,599 figure me because if you're a faithful Christian, you do 586 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,759 want to be respectful of the truth and of your 587 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,319 brother and maybe you know, and dealing with sin in 588 00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:06,720 a gracious way, etc. 589 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:08,039 Speaker 1: I do think there's. 590 00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: Absolute legitimacy there. It is fully backed by scripture. So 591 00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:12,839 it's difficult to figure out how to do that because 592 00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:15,720 we don't have a lot of practice of confrontation in 593 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:20,000 a biblical way. Yeah, gooidance habit is very strong, and I. 594 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 4: Think we're going to have to start talking about that 595 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,119 a little bit more as we move into I don't 596 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:26,000 know if you know Aaron Wren, but I do like 597 00:32:26,319 --> 00:32:29,720 his taxonomy a lot of neutral world and negative world, 598 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,880 and we have moved into a much more negative world 599 00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:35,839 that is much more a hostile not just to Christian 600 00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:40,039 beliefs but to Christians. They're looked at much more negatively 601 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,920 I think by the dominant culture than they were in 602 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,039 the past. And all of that is going to come 603 00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:46,559 with a set of costs that we haven't really had 604 00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:49,440 to weigh much in this country in the past, and 605 00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:52,160 so you know, part of this, I think is just 606 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:55,519 trying to figure out, all right, how do we now 607 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,640 navigate the new cultural realities that we're facing. 608 00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:03,119 Speaker 2: Let's go to your chapter on abortion because it has 609 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,599 many shocking anecdotes about well known Christians. I'm gonna name 610 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,119 check here a different person, the author and professor Karen 611 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,440 Swallow prior so I see her on Tons of the 612 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,319 Mom and the Homeschooling and EDGIT classchool education podcast that 613 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:15,799 I follow. 614 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: So her presence in your book was really not to 615 00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:21,400 her credit, you know, but she was. 616 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,839 Speaker 2: It's not you know, it's her public record, you know, 617 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,680 but she was among those downplaying the end of Roe 618 00:33:27,759 --> 00:33:31,000 versus Wad because it happened thanks to Donald Trump being president. 619 00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:34,559 And now that, however, Trump and his running mate Jadie 620 00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:37,519 Vance have backed down on their pro life positions. I mean, 621 00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:39,240 I'm sure you know you probably know this, but I'll 622 00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:41,359 mention for our listeners. They've you know, supported the abortion 623 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,759 drugs that kill the majority of unborn babies aborted. They 624 00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:47,759 backed the mass creation of frozen humans and storing them 625 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,440 cryogenically and definitely and they've dramatically downgraded the GOP platform 626 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,640 on life and marriage. So what do you think would 627 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,440 you have any additions or revisions to your chapter there, 628 00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:02,119 you know, talking through what a Christian voter's calculus. 629 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: Should be on abortion. 630 00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:05,559 Speaker 2: You mentioned, you know, it is important to have it 631 00:34:05,599 --> 00:34:08,440 as often a litmus test for those who are faithful 632 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,119 believers when they're looking at candidates. So it's gotten a 633 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,679 little bit more complicated. I wonder with what's happened with 634 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,639 Trump and JD. Vance in the you know time since 635 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:17,679 your book has been. 636 00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 4: Published, right, and you know, I have been thinking through 637 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,280 it a lot, and like so many Christians and pro lifers, 638 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,239 I'm incredibly grieved by the GOP dropping the clear pro 639 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,440 life plank. I could not be more in disagreement with 640 00:34:33,559 --> 00:34:37,679 Trump and Vance's comments on Mifa press Stone. But I 641 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,519 don't know that I would write anything different about this 642 00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:42,760 chapter because it and I'm glad you gave me an 643 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,320 opportunity to say this. It's not a defense of Trump. 644 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,840 It's more a defense of those voters who voted for 645 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,880 Trump because of the pro life issue. I think they 646 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,559 made the right calculation at the time. I think when 647 00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:58,519 you look at the political result that they got, which 648 00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:00,039 was that they did get. 649 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,599 Speaker 3: The overturning of Roe v. Wade. It was so surprising 650 00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:04,320 even to them. 651 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 4: I think people sort of on a wing in of 652 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,599 prayer pulled that lever for Trump, didn't really expect it 653 00:35:09,639 --> 00:35:11,519 to happen, and it happened, and I think we weren't 654 00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:14,440 quite ready for Wow, what do we do next? You know? 655 00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:18,000 So in terms of that, I don't think I would 656 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,920 write anything different because we still want to be in 657 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,119 this place. We are still now in a place where 658 00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:24,239 on a state by state level, we can have this 659 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,079 fight now. I want a national abortion van, but at 660 00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:31,159 least we are able now to battle it out in 661 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:33,159 the states, and this gives us a mechanism that we 662 00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:36,559 did not have before. So I wouldn't suggest anything different 663 00:35:36,639 --> 00:35:41,639 about the moral calculus that those voters made in terms 664 00:35:41,679 --> 00:35:44,159 of you know what Karen Swallow prior and a lot 665 00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:45,719 of the other people that I name check in the 666 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,719 chapter said after that, I don't think that my criticism 667 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,679 of it would be any different because what a lot 668 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,360 of them said in order to sort of take that 669 00:35:56,199 --> 00:36:00,880 credit away from Donald Trump as well, the issue is 670 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,159 that Evangelicals and Christians need to do a better job 671 00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:08,239 of taking care of mom and baby, and we need 672 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,559 to put in place the social entitlements that make it 673 00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:16,079 so that women won't want abortion. Well, there's a number 674 00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:18,920 of problems with that one. Christians have been doing an 675 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,719 incredible job providing care for moms and babies, So it's 676 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,440 just a false narrative. And I go into a lot 677 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,159 of the details into just how much we've been caring 678 00:36:26,159 --> 00:36:28,960 for moms and babies, and also that when we look 679 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,239 at the history of welfare expansion, it does not show 680 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,519 a lowering of abortion. If you look, for example, in 681 00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:38,440 the black community where a lot of those initial nineteen 682 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,519 sixties entitlements rolled out, what it has done is decimate marriage, 683 00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:44,559 and that has led to an increase in abortion. 684 00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 3: So it seems very. 685 00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 4: Bad policy to say, let's do more of that that 686 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,760 has created an abortion epidemic in this particular community. 687 00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 3: So I think all of my criticisms will probably remain 688 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:57,320 the same. 689 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that a lot of you know, fellow 690 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,119 Christians are really wrestling with that issue, and well, it 691 00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:08,679 will continue to be live until we get to that election. 692 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: The booth what yet again. 693 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,159 Speaker 2: Another overarching theme that I also noticed throughout the book. 694 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,920 Some Yeah, it's kind of an underlying theme of just 695 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,960 the variety of chapters, you know, because you focus on 696 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,119 the efforts to corral the Christians on climate change, on 697 00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:27,440 abortion and pro life issues, on marriage and LGBT issues. 698 00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure on the whole COVID. 699 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 2: You know that all of that huge levels of manipulation 700 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,199 and money slashing around. But one of the things that 701 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:39,920 I think is common to all of those is you 702 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,199 are citing major church leader leaders publicly claiming that God 703 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,679 said something like drive a prius for climate change, support socialism, 704 00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:50,320 to be pro life. But that's something he didn't actually say, right, 705 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,039 That's not in the Bible that you need to drive 706 00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:55,159 a prius in order to help the earth. And I 707 00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:58,280 do believe that traditional Christian doctrine calls putting words into 708 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,239 God's mouth blasphemy. Did it surprise you, I mean, and 709 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:03,000 is it? 710 00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 3: I don't know. 711 00:38:03,519 --> 00:38:06,159 Speaker 2: For me, it's a little almost shocking to see that 712 00:38:06,199 --> 00:38:08,559 people who ought to, you know, who know more about 713 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,400 theology than I do, really being less afraid maybe than 714 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,480 they should be, to ascribe words to God that he 715 00:38:14,519 --> 00:38:15,159 did not say. 716 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I wonder. 717 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,159 Speaker 4: Sometimes if that that's knowledge puffing up and it makes 718 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:24,679 it easier to manipulate scripture, because when I watch some 719 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,199 of these presentations on all of these issues you just 720 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,719 brought up, they would kind of sound good and you're like, well, yeah, 721 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,039 we do want to care for the earth, and then 722 00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:36,119 you would they would get to the part where because 723 00:38:36,159 --> 00:38:38,159 we want to care for the earth, we need to 724 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:41,719 support this cap and trade policy and that's being faithful 725 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,000 to the Gospel. And you go, wait, record scratch, no, no, no, no, 726 00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:47,480 it's fine that we can talk about. Okay, well, what 727 00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:51,679 are these various passages in scripture do to inform how 728 00:38:51,679 --> 00:38:52,880 we look at some of these issues. 729 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 3: I think that's perfectly fine. 730 00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:57,159 Speaker 4: And I did try to take pains to say on 731 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,920 something that is not crystal clear scripturally, like marriage, sexuality, 732 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,320 and gender, say something like what should our border policy be? 733 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,159 Speaker 3: Or what should our gun control policy be? 734 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,679 Speaker 4: These could be things that Christians in very good faith 735 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,079 can have different views. The problem was that it wasn't 736 00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:17,199 being argued in good faith. It's being argued through spiritual 737 00:39:17,199 --> 00:39:21,199 manipulation of saying, if you don't follow this particular policy 738 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,119 this way, you are not only not only do I 739 00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:26,599 think you're wrong, I think you're not being obedient to 740 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,360 Christ and if you're saying that as an institutional leader 741 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:35,079 with authority, that's an even bigger problem. So yeah, I 742 00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:38,599 guess to a certain degree though, that I had seen 743 00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:41,519 going on for so long that it didn't really surprise me. 744 00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:44,800 I mean, one of the things I kind of stress, 745 00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:47,480 I think in the introduction and then again in the 746 00:39:47,519 --> 00:39:50,360 conclusion is needs you to know these are just a 747 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,519 few representative examples. 748 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,679 Speaker 3: This is by no means exhaustive. 749 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,679 Speaker 4: As you said, I did talk a lot about Southern Baptists, 750 00:39:57,679 --> 00:40:00,840 because they're the biggest, But I mean I was flooded 751 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,559 with letters from Anglicans, from Methodists, from Lutherans. I mean, 752 00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:07,639 I don't think there was any denomination where I have 753 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,960 not heard from people going yep, it's going on. 754 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 3: With our church too. 755 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 4: So these were just little slices to give you a 756 00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:19,760 picture of what's happening. By no means was it the 757 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,440 entire Enchilada? 758 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you had a huge amount of reporting and 759 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,760 here though, so as a fellow writer that reported, that's 760 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,119 very it was impressive to me. 761 00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: Would you say, based on the amount. 762 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 2: Of work that you were able to do and all 763 00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:36,000 the things that you were able to uncover and package neatly. 764 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: Into this book for people? Do you think it will 765 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,920 be prudent going forward? For Christians? 766 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 2: You know, like people who are political you know now 767 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:44,519 as a report of looking at political news, you know, 768 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:46,480 when I see something pop up, I ask who paid 769 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:47,800 for that to be in front of my face? 770 00:40:48,159 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 4: Right? 771 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,079 Speaker 2: So, you know, so it sounds like, do you think 772 00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:54,239 it'd be prudent for Christians to start suspecting maybe there's 773 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,400 big leftist money behind any you know, time they see 774 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,079 an instance of some religious branded organization pushing far left 775 00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:02,599 policies in religious terms. 776 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you have to ask that question. And 777 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,480 I've told people. I've told a lot of pastors who 778 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:09,519 I've talked to. I hate to tell you this, but 779 00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:11,159 we are just in an era where you have to 780 00:41:11,159 --> 00:41:13,199 do a lot of homework. So if you're going to 781 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,920 bring some curriculum into your church, you need to know 782 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,079 who's funding it. You need to ask some questions. And 783 00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:22,840 that goes for goodness sake signing your name to some 784 00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:26,480 general statement of principles, because I would read some of 785 00:41:26,519 --> 00:41:29,599 these general statement of principles and I would look at 786 00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:31,639 it and go, yes, I agree. 787 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 3: With that every immigrant has the imago day. 788 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,559 Speaker 4: We are all made in the image of God, and 789 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,920 that we absolutely need to tell them about Jesus. And 790 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,079 it would just be just some general things that every 791 00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:43,559 Christian would agree with. And I would think if someone 792 00:41:43,599 --> 00:41:46,199 had presented that to me, I would sign my name 793 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,280 to it, not knowing that this organization is then going 794 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,960 to turn around and write a public letter and publish 795 00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:56,800 it in the Washington Post demanding that Christians need to 796 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,960 back James Lankfort's border bill, or to demand that the 797 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,119 Biden administration and the remain in Mexico policy, which are 798 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:09,360 both things that the Evangelical Immigration Table did. So I 799 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,760 really want to tell some of these well known pastors too. 800 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,159 I understand that not all of you knew what you 801 00:42:14,199 --> 00:42:16,119 were doing. I'm not saying every one of you is, 802 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,039 you know, on the take and that you were compromised. 803 00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:22,000 I understand that some of these guys went my friend 804 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,079 who I trust, asked me to sign this, and I 805 00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:26,159 signed it. And we're just in an era where you 806 00:42:26,199 --> 00:42:28,239 can't do that anymore well. 807 00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 2: And people who are deceivers and manipulators are weaponizing your 808 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,000 good faith in your trust of your friends, which is 809 00:42:34,159 --> 00:42:36,079 you know that's what they do, but they shouldn't get 810 00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:37,400 rewarded for them, right. 811 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,199 Speaker 4: Right, and then you avoid headaches of people like me 812 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:41,760 coming along and writing about it. 813 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,639 Speaker 2: So I'm going to take a different tack with this 814 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,440 last question, and I'm going to follow actually the conclusion 815 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,320 of your book, because you really kind of shift ton 816 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,039 there from this, you know, idea third person reporting to 817 00:42:54,079 --> 00:42:59,039 tell your personal story, very moving redemption story that actually 818 00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:00,960 it was a very moving for me because you know, 819 00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:04,800 I'm fellow Christian, I also have sins, and I've been 820 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,639 redeemed by Jesus Christ, and that is the most important 821 00:43:07,639 --> 00:43:09,880 thing in my life. So I think that reminder, you know, 822 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,719 it was just it was surprising to read at the 823 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,599 end of the kind of book that you have. But 824 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,639 you explain actually in that chapter why you did decide 825 00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:19,280 to get personal in that what is otherwise a very 826 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,480 fact based, you know, deeply reported book. So would you 827 00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:25,159 kind of share your reasoning there with our listeners as 828 00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:28,039 we close today for those who, you know, all of 829 00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:30,159 those who wrote you the kind of letters about hearing 830 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:34,199 that personal story, you know, being blessed by Uh, well, 831 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:35,719 here I am using Christian language. 832 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,559 Speaker 1: You know, being encouraged and which I don't usually do 833 00:43:38,639 --> 00:43:40,360 at the Federalist. I'm all your. 834 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,039 Speaker 3: Listeners should just become Christians. 835 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,159 Speaker 1: And that's right. We can hope and pray for that. 836 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,119 Speaker 2: But can you kind of just give more of that 837 00:43:48,159 --> 00:43:50,559 backstory to our listeners since you said, you know they're 838 00:43:50,559 --> 00:43:52,960 on that chapter that people really respond to that and 839 00:43:53,079 --> 00:43:56,280 seem to really crave hearing more about that because it 840 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,159 really encourages them with some of their struggles. 841 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so was the book with my Own Testimony, 842 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,519 which is my story of how I came to salvation 843 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:10,519 and belief in Jesus Christ. And it's really the story 844 00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:13,159 of my prodigal years. I had some very prodigal years 845 00:44:13,199 --> 00:44:16,199 in college that were miserable, and how just out of 846 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,400 a moment of desperation, I prayed and I asked the 847 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,000 Lord just save me, just help, and then how I 848 00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:26,119 kind of went through a little period of flirtation with 849 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,039 sort of Christian therapeutics, which was okay. I was still 850 00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:33,920 struggling with sin, particularly alcohol abuse and drug abuse, and 851 00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:37,440 I was getting, you know, some of these sort of 852 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,519 wazi Christian books about well, you need to look at 853 00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:43,000 your trauma, and you need to look at the past 854 00:44:43,119 --> 00:44:45,599 wrongs committed against you and why that has given you 855 00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:47,719 this drive to do these things and all of these 856 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,119 sort of self excusing rationalizations. And then I came across 857 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,199 thanks to a pastor who gave me a book from 858 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,280 John MacArthur that kind of just blew all that out 859 00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:58,480 of the water. It was like, you just need to 860 00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:02,000 stop sinning. All God's creatures have had bad things happen 861 00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:05,159 to him and have had people commit sins against them, 862 00:45:05,159 --> 00:45:06,800 but you've committed a lot of great sins and the 863 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,679 only way to arrest this process is stop sinning. And 864 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,000 here's how you grab hold of sanctification. And it was 865 00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:16,599 so helpful and freeing to me, so one I was so. 866 00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:19,519 Speaker 3: Grateful for it. And when I started talking. 867 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 4: About this, when I was reporting on these evangelical stories, 868 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:23,719 and I'll be honest, I would refer to it very 869 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,679 obliquely in some interviews, and moms and dads would like 870 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,719 seize on it, grandparents would seize on it. 871 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,800 Speaker 3: And suddenly, you know, DMS emails. 872 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,039 Speaker 4: Would be lit up with hey, when you mentioned that, 873 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,280 you know, you had a little bit of a struggle 874 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:38,599 and you came back to Christ. 875 00:45:38,679 --> 00:45:40,199 Speaker 3: What was the story there? 876 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,199 Speaker 4: And one I told it because I could just see 877 00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:44,840 there was such a hunger for stories like that, but 878 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,760 also because I wanted to finish the book, which had 879 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,000 been very tough on a lot of church leaders, by 880 00:45:51,039 --> 00:45:53,440 being clear that I love the church. There is a 881 00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:56,960 lot of reporting from the secular media that is all 882 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:04,360 about being as well, let's say, creating as much of 883 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,519 an indictment of the church as you can, creating doubt 884 00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:10,599 in the church, suggesting that it's not a safe. 885 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 3: Place or a good place to go. And I didn't. 886 00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 4: I wanted to be so clear that that's not what 887 00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:17,639 I was doing, that this was all coming out of 888 00:46:17,639 --> 00:46:21,599 a love for the place and the institution that allowed 889 00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:23,960 me to get saved and allowed me to get sanctified 890 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,440 and created the life that I have. I met my 891 00:46:26,559 --> 00:46:28,840 husband to church. I mean, we're very involved in our 892 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,000 church life here. So that was really why I wanted 893 00:46:32,039 --> 00:46:34,119 to finish that off. Was just so that people understood 894 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,480 the motivation for this is not because I want to 895 00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:38,320 damage the church. 896 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 3: I want to build it up and make it stronger. 897 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,320 Speaker 2: You've been listening to The Federalist Radio Hour with Joy Pullman, 898 00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:47,800 the Federalist executive editor, and Megan Basham. She is a 899 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,280 culture reporter at the Daily Wire. And the author of 900 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,440 the book out now that you can get everywhere, Shepherd's 901 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:54,039 for sale. 902 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,519 Speaker 1: You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 903 00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,119 Speaker 3: We'll be back with more soon. 904 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,920 Speaker 1: Until then, lovers of freedom and anxious for the fraid