WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:35.560 So in. 2 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:58.439 So insane, it's so insane. 3 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:15.480 Bunker bunker, bunker locker. 4 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:31.040 I got married. I got married to a funko who. 5 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:39.680 We got wedded, come joined in the subway, he shocked. 6 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:46.799 I am married, I'm married. 7 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:52.519 To a funco. But do we get joined? 8 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.040 Go watch the singer subway? Who shot or. 9 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:03.640 Specimens and biscuits and minerals they come to me to 10 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:05.879 my whole life is spent? 11 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:08.360 What to h. 12 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:22.800 M hmm, what of. 13 00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:34.280 I'm married to a longer who but we got wedding, 14 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:37.439 but we got joining in the subway? 15 00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:44.080 Shut over the roads and minerals they come to you 16 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:49.120 to listen, and minerals they come from this year too, 17 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:56.960 dot for for. 18 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:00.759 Fuck. 19 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:19.599 I got married, I got married to my fult goober. 20 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:27.560 Oh we got waded, we got joined in the subwhere 21 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:28.400 he shut. 22 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:33.039 The sight? 23 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:35.639 What should I do with the first sight? Put it 24 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:37.280 in my head, throw it on the ground. 25 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:38.000 Who knows? 26 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:39.199 Just what would I do? 27 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:49.199 Sweet enjoyed the subway? He shut the lover. 28 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:10.360 The human guinea pig stuff in Africa. It is so insane, 29 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:29.560 the human guinea pig stuff in Africa, it's so insane, 30 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:48.319 is so. 31 00:04:48.480 --> 00:05:30.120 Inc so insane, it's so insane. 32 00:05:45.839 --> 00:06:21.399 Funker Funcker boo fuco fucker bot. 33 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:23.839 I got a fund. 34 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:21.160 Come joint. 35 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:32.199 All right, welcome to another open debate today. Uh I 36 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:40.079 decided to postpone my music industry stream. I know that 37 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:44.959 everyone is concerned. We all hope the best for Diddy. 38 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:45.839 We're all. 39 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:50.839 We've all got our fingers crossed. We might have our 40 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.639 hands a little bit like this when they're crossed. But listen, 41 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.839 as a VG comby said, my favorite brother out there, 42 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:04.360 we all know this is what all the elites do. 43 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.920 The only reason that they're going after Diddy is because 44 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:11.319 of his skin color. And look, I know everybody's interested. 45 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:14.160 They want to know what is j Loo up to? 46 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:19.839 Why if j Lo and Baffleck split, were they seen 47 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:24.759 kissing again? Those are the issues that concern us, I know. 48 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:31.240 But listen, I'm gonna have all the hot scoops, all 49 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:37.680 the hot goss, the hottest gossip around available for you tomorrow. 50 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:42.439 But because Francis seemingly doubled down, and we're gonna look 51 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:46.120 at the responses and no, no, he's not doubling down. 52 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:50.920 It's all misunderstandings. He's talking about diversity amongst Christians. 53 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:52.160 Is he. 54 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.759 There's stacks of books five feet five feet high. So Jamie, 55 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:02.199 Jamie doesn't know where to set things because there's so 56 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:05.720 many books everywhere. Okay, well that's gonna fall over if 57 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:11.399 you put it up there. Thank you. She brought me 58 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:17.040 a plate of treats. She brought me a plate of 59 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:20.560 treats to calm my beat us rage in case I 60 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.439 get mad. So she may be a homemade keto bite 61 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:29.079 and a ginger chew for when the beat us attacks, 62 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.160 when I get angry, beat us to the callers that 63 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.960 call in. So I got the sugars. 64 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.840 I got a bad case of the sugars. This old 65 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:42.080 Francis over here gets me a little angry. I get 66 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:45.240 bad cases of the sugars. That starts shaking, and I 67 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:47.879 get really angry and screaming and cussing up a. 68 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:51.480 Storm of people. Mama wouldn't be happy about that. So 69 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:55.039 Mama told me to eat much sugars. Make sure I 70 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:59.360 calm down and not get hungry. I'm drinking too many 71 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:04.639 express Oh I gotta calm down. Oh man, So let's see. 72 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:06.240 Okay, I'm not gonna play the video because I think 73 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:08.279 it's in a foreign language. My nose hair isn't making me. 74 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:12.399 It's like crazy. Do you two snort cocaine? He snorts cocaine. 75 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:17.120 You get him exposed, exposed? Clip it, clip it, clip it. 76 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:18.639 He's exposed. 77 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:27.399 Now the explanation once again, we have Francis here. Let's 78 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:29.240 see to read the quote. Now this is the official 79 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:34.679 Vatican uh whatever. This man is Vatican man here with 80 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:37.519 the beard and whatnot. And doesn't he look like the 81 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:41.720 ultimate trade cat with his tie and his little thin 82 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:45.879 little beard. Man Michael Heenes, I mean, I don't even 83 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:46.519 know how he talks. 84 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:52.399 But senior Vatican correspondent with Michael Heenes, now he's the 85 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:57.120 one that's really been championing this latest information about Francis. 86 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:04.000 Unity is not uniformity. The diversity of our cultural religious 87 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:08.000 identities is a gift from God. Unity and diversity. Now, 88 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:12.120 the cope to today's apparent doubling down is, oh, this 89 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:15.879 is just within the Christian sphere. Wait a minute, there's 90 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:20.159 not religious diversity within the Christian sphere because that's the 91 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:25.200 same religion. There might be cultural diversity within the Christian sphere. 92 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:30.840 So this whole cope is preposterous. Every cope is preposterous. 93 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:33.120 It's always the same word games to try to make 94 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:38.159 it mean anything other than what he clearly says. And 95 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.720 what's what's ironic is that what he clearly says is 96 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:46.120 also clearly weaponized ambiguity. So there's a bit of a 97 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:49.440 catch twenty two there. I admit it's a paradox. But 98 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:51.679 how do I know what he quote clearly says. Well, 99 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:53.600 I'm gonna show you how I know what he clearly says, 100 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:58.639 because he's referencing back to and by the way, the 101 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:00.679 fact that he says, well, he talks about Mary's, so 102 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.960 he must only mean Catholics. This is what every Roman 103 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:07.200 Catholic does when there's these problems in their documents. They say, well, 104 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.039 here's this other quote over here that is not saying 105 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:15.519 what the first quote says. Oh, well, that's a contradiction. 106 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:18.919 That doesn't mean that the quotes harmonized. That just tells 107 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:22.279 me that he's saying double speak. The Vatican has been 108 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:26.879 masters at this bureaucratic double speak for probably many centuries. 109 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.360 To be fair, to be fair, to be clear, here 110 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:33.080 we are all pilgrims of hope walking in search of 111 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.320 the truth. Now here's another problem in this quote, in 112 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:39.399 this statement, which was in the other gaff heresy. Gaff 113 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:41.759 the other day, I think he says in here we're 114 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:47.759 all children of God or something like that. Let's see. Well, No, 115 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.519 he says God loves every man and makes no difference 116 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.559 among us. No, that's not true. Some of us are wicked, 117 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:57.399 and some of us are sons of devils, sons of Satan, etcetera. 118 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:00.879 Spiritually speaking, so no, it's not true that there's no 119 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:04.279 differentiation amongst human beings. That's not true. And in the 120 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.080 gaff the other day he said that we're all sons 121 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:09.559 of God. No, that's not true. You're a son of 122 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:12.120 God through baptism. You're not a son of God by 123 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.360 merely being a son of Adam. In fact, those who 124 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.240 are sons of Adam or under the spirit and influence 125 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:21.279 of the wicked one. Now you're potentially a son of God, 126 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.360 but you're not de facto a son of God by 127 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:27.679 being a son of Adam. And so there's always this 128 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:30.519 ambiguous language that goes on here. And he goes on 129 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:36.840 to talk about it sounds like his typical worship illegal 130 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:41.960 migrants type speech. But notice if it was merely a 131 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:46.399 case of my nose, there's crazy. It's because the ragweed 132 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:50.240 in this area is like at a level seven right now. 133 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:56.759 He says, the richness of God wants us to be 134 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:02.360 diverse through different traditions, different religious identities, is a gift 135 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:06.960 of God. Again, if he's speaking to Christians, there's not 136 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:12.440 differences of religions amongst Christians or amongst Catholics. Maybe in 137 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:14.919 Francis's mind there actually is though, because you know, to 138 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:17.840 be clear, you can be a Uniate and deny half 139 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:20.720 of the papal dogmas and still be a quote good 140 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:23.519 standing Catholic, or you can be a trad cat who 141 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.639 thinks that all the things that the Uniates believe are 142 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:29.840 heretical and damnable heresies, because it's the same position of 143 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:32.759 the Orthodox in terms of Palmism. So maybe he does 144 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:35.279 mean there's a lot of different religions within rogue Thalicism. 145 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:40.679 So that's another option too. And of course, ever so, 146 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:44.639 Michael often says the patriarchs have the humanism amongst them. 147 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:45.200 Yeah, I know that. 148 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.440 How many times have we addressed this argument? I've addressed 149 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:54.600 it in every stream this week, every video. And why 150 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.519 is that a two quoque way, Because if I'm doing 151 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.639 an eternal critique of his system, it doesn't work to say, 152 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:03.399 but you have accumunist bishops too. If the argument was 153 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:06.039 the true Church is the one with no ecumunist bishops, 154 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.960 then Michael Watton's reply would work. But nobody has made 155 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.799 the argument that the true Church is proven by quote 156 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.879 no ecumenist bishops or impeccable bishops, or bishops that have 157 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:21.919 no errors or no sense. That's not the argument. I've 158 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:25.519 figured out that these people are literally incapable of an 159 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:29.679 internal critique. They don't understand that. After that, in almost 160 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.039 twenty years of debating with Thomas off and on, and 161 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:39.559 it being a Thomas, I don't care if Sam Schmun 162 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:42.120 wants to come after me. We had a conversation, a 163 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.279 friendly conversation about this, and he wants to do a 164 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:47.279 roundtable where me and UBI and others come in debate. 165 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.559 And I said, of course I'm down for that. But 166 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:56.399 what I'm saying about internal critiques, I think that they 167 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.600 just don't understand what that is. And they think that, oh, well, 168 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.039 if you some problems in my system, you have problems 169 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:05.440 in your system too. But not all problems are the same, 170 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:09.720 Not all problems are created equal. Some problems are systemic 171 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:17.919 or so fundamental that they demonstrate the incompatibility, the incoherency 172 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.320 of the system as a whole. For example, if you 173 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.799 remember when I debated tomorrow, I said, what would it 174 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:25.559 take Eric, and he said, if you can produce a 175 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:29.639 papal dogmatic contradiction, that would be enough. Yeah, exactly, it 176 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.759 only takes one dogmatic contradiction to invalidate this system, because 177 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:36.360 the system claims that for this entire system there are 178 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:41.600 no papal dogmatic contradictions. So the burden of proof, by 179 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.759 the way, is on those who have the extraordinary claims 180 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:47.519 that the Church always taught the Vatican one views. That's 181 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:50.399 what Vatican one says, that's what Leo the thirteenth stat 182 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.679 is called mutum says. So actually the burden of proof 183 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:55.600 with their outlandish claim is on them, I would say, 184 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.519 and we've seen over and over that they're actually ever 185 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:05.240 demonstrate that what they demonstrate is reading into various quotes. 186 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.039 So how do I know what Francis meant? Well, Francis 187 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:15.879 is repeating what he said in the Document on Human 188 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.159 Fraternity from twenty nineteen which he signed with the Grand Imam. 189 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.120 Do you see that? And it was a big scandal 190 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.080 at the time because Francis said, God wills all of 191 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.159 the religious diversity, all the pagan religions, God wants them 192 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:30.399 to be there. And what did all the Roman Catholics 193 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.440 say at the time, Oh, he doesn't mean in terms 194 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.480 of his intentional will. He just means it in terms 195 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:40.639 of lying providence. Interesting. So now when Francis says the 196 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:44.120 exact same thing, and he clearly says that God wills 197 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:50.960 religious diversity, now they're admitting that he is saying religious diversity, 198 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:53.080 but it just means amongst Catholics. So well, wait a minute. 199 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:55.639 When he said religious diversity back in back here in 200 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.399 twenty nineteen, it didn't mean that. It only meant God's 201 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:03.279 permission of many different systems, not of the wanted many 202 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:09.519 false religions. So you see how they will the same phraseology, 203 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:14.319 the same terminology is given a totally different sense by 204 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.039 the Roman Catholics to fit the needs to make the 205 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.079 system work. So their system is unfalsifiable. But the problem 206 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:24.920 with unfalsifiable systems is that that's actually a demonstration of 207 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.319 its tremendous weakness. Why would you have to be constantly 208 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.759 propping up all of these blatant contradictions, all these blatant, 209 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:37.559 compromised papal scandals that aren't just scandals of sin, they're 210 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:42.039 scandals of doctrinal error, contradiction, and absurdity. Why would you 211 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.000 have to keep doing this if this was such an 212 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:51.680 obviously true, manifest, globally universal, unified system. It's like Luigi 213 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:53.519 said the other day when he was debating with somebody, 214 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.680 he said, you guys have dogmatized so many things that 215 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.240 it's too difficult to keep up with and make the 216 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:07.920 whole thing work. That's the problem. And just think of 217 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:12.799 the Prima Fassia absurdity of a thousand years ago calling 218 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.240 crusades against Muslims, and I'll grant that it was a 219 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:24.079 defensive posture versus now signing joint declarations and documents that 220 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:29.079 God wills Islam and Catholicism and the other religions and 221 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.559 then building the Abu Dhabi Faith Center as a result 222 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.119 of this document. Did you know that this document that 223 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:41.200 he signed with the grant Imam was signed as the 224 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.440 basis to build the multi faith center where there's a mosque. 225 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:47.920 And a. 226 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:56.519 Wait a minute, I've got it right here, synagogue, the 227 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.440 cultural landmark of the UAE capital, which includes a synagogue, 228 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:00.759 a church, and a MoMA is meant to be a 229 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:05.759 beacon of understanding and peaceful co exists, bra coexists, brah 230 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:11.400 bumpersticker theology inspired by what the document on human fraternity? 231 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.319 What's the document on human fraternity? This thing right here 232 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.920 where Francis says, God wills all the religions, he wants 233 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.880 them to all be there. Now again, he just said 234 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.480 two days ago or three days ago, that they're all 235 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.400 paths to God. Like there's many different languages. Now, that's 236 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:29.400 a false equivalence. The fact that there's many different languages 237 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:31.799 and many different religions does not mean that they all 238 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.200 get you to the end goal. There's only one way 239 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:37.680 to have it, according to the New Testament, according to Christ, 240 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.880 and according to even the Roman Catholic teaching all the 241 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:44.200 way up until Vatican Two's no Strataute in Lemagentium sixteen, 242 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:49.799 which again I argued, clearly implies that the plan of 243 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:54.079 salvation includes Muslims. Okay, well, that's kind of ambiguous. Does 244 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:55.920 that mean that Muslims can be saved? 245 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:56.039 Well? 246 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:57.880 First of all, who doubted that Muslims could convert and 247 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:02.319 be saved? Nobody? Well, the interpretation that we're supposed to have. Well, 248 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:04.799 that just means that they can be saved. The plan 249 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:10.000 of salvation includes Muslims. Did anyone ever think Muslims couldn't 250 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:14.839 convert to Christianity. That's a preposterous, absurd, you know, non 251 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:19.680 necessary statement. In the first place. Amongst those who can 252 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:23.000 be saved are those that acknowledge the Creator. So wait 253 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:27.440 a minute, now, Jesus, isn't necessary Muslims profess to hold 254 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:30.200 the faith of Abraham and along with us they adore 255 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:33.240 the merciful One, merciful God. Now that says that they 256 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:36.039 do adorn it, and every romancality will so. But it 257 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:39.400 suys profess. That doesn't mean that they do. Oh but 258 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:42.119 this isn't the only Vatican through document. There's also no 259 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.839 stratate which qualifies this statement and goes even further to 260 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.240 say that they do have the faith of Abraham. No 261 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:55.839 sratat III. The Church esteems the Muslims. Imagine this language. 262 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.599 Imagine telling Hillar Belook, the famous Roman Catholic writer and 263 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:04.720 a Paulist from a century prior who wrote famous essays 264 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:09.319 calling Islam antichrist. Think about the medieval popes who called 265 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:13.920 it the wicked, demonic religion of Mohammed, the anti Christ 266 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.359 religion of Mohammed. Now, according to the dogmatic teaching a 267 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:21.640 Vatican through the Church esteems Muslims, oh, we esteem Antichrist. 268 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.640 Now we used to go to war and call defensive 269 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:28.599 crusades against the wicked Mohammedans. Now we esteem them. 270 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:29.000 Just that. 271 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:31.880 Right there is enough to tell you the spirit of 272 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:36.400 Vatican two, it's not the Holy Spirit. Muslims adore the 273 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.759 one God. Well, actually they don't, because every Muslim who 274 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.160 knows the first thing about Islam will tell you Allah 275 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.519 has no sons. So that right there totally destroys the 276 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:46.799 lie that will. 277 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:50.640 As Trent Horn says Joseph, Christians worship the sabe Old 278 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.279 test of but God because they believe it. 279 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:52.839 What God. 280 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.119 I'm tritt Hord. Look at my curly haired by triple chit. 281 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:58.359 I'm trit Hord. I know a lot about theology. Look, 282 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:00.000 I don't know what the word triad beads. I think 283 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.200 it's a word that beats at Trinitarians will, even though 284 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.680 it's the most Covid used day of bebokes. 285 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:07.079 Greek Catholics for the Trinity. But I don't know what 286 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:12.480 that word beads, a tride horne, no trent horn. The 287 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.079 fact that they believe in one God is not even 288 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:20.319 the Old Testament God because Jews, maybe you could make 289 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:22.759 this argument about Jews that they worship the same Old 290 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:25.480 Testament God because they call him Father, He's the father 291 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:30.160 of Israel. Jew Muslims explicitly say no, it is Allah 292 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:30.839 has no sons. 293 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:31.759 Alaiah is no father. 294 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:35.920 It's Islam one oh one that Allah is not father. 295 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.480 So this statement is false. They adore the one God 296 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.920 that lives and subsists in himself. Okay, guess what are 297 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:47.200 you familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity. The Doctor 298 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:50.119 of the Trinity is not Unitarianism, that there's one divine 299 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:55.000 person who lives and subsists in himself. Now, if you're 300 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.640 a monarchical Trinitarian, you can say, well, that's true about 301 00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.920 the Father. But the Father did not live and subsist 302 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.960 only in himself, as if he was there from the beginning. 303 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.640 And then there's later on this second thing known as 304 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:08.920 the Sun, and then there's this third thing spirit. No, 305 00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:14.720 there was always an eternal triad, eternally begotten. So you 306 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:17.839 see how absurd from the outset this is as if 307 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:22.000 there's a common religion between Muslims and Christians. Because here's 308 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:26.519 the reasoning. Well, Muslims believe that there's some attributes that 309 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:31.839 overlap with Christianity, So what a Satanist could believe there's 310 00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:35.759 some attributes that overlap, and so you can get well, 311 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:38.200 but what about the sense and the reference they intend 312 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:40.920 it to be. It doesn't matter what they intend, and 313 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.759 it doesn't matter what the reference is ultimately, because every 314 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:47.759 Catholic that I ask, I said, do you believe that 315 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.400 a Mormon worships the same God as you? You understand 316 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:55.000 they linguistically profess Father, Son, holy Spirit, and that Jesus 317 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:58.720 is the Son of God in some sense. Does that 318 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:02.160 mean because of the linguistic similarities, that we have the 319 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.920 same God as the Mormons. Every Catholic tells me no 320 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:10.759 when I ask him that, And then these goofballs turn 321 00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:16.759 around and tell me that Mormons don't have that Muslims 322 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:22.519 have the same God. I mean, if anything, a Mormon 323 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:29.440 might have a closer linguistic grammatical sense than than a Muslim. 324 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.559 I mean, I think Mormonism is ridiculous, it's a stupid heresy, 325 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:37.039 But I mean they at least say Jesus is divine. 326 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:40.799 I mean, he's one of many gods. And they at 327 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:42.759 least say God is the Father. I mean they think 328 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:45.599 God has a body, and I mean it's all stupid, right, 329 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:52.799 just nonsense. But like, on what basis is a Muslim 330 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:57.759 closer to Catholicism than a Mormon. It doesn't make no sense. Oh, 331 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:03.240 because of monotheism. It is Monotheism. What does that mean? Oh, 332 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.720 it means, as Trent Horne argued, the Old Testament Unitarian God. 333 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:10.960 There is no Old Testament Unitarian God. Why can anyone 334 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:13.720 not fathom this? Do you know why they can't fathom it? 335 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:19.880 I'm gonna shock you because in the mind of the 336 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.880 Roman Catholic there's two conflicting positions. When I was dming 337 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:27.599 with Tim Gordon the other day, we had a long 338 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:30.799 back and forth basically the entire morning we were dming 339 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.960 and voice messaging back and forth on Twitter. And I'm 340 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:37.799 not knocking Tim. This is my analysis of that conversation. 341 00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:40.440 There is, on the one hand, the Tim Gordon, who 342 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:45.920 wants to be in line with what obviously divine revelation 343 00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:50.720 says Moses and Abraham knew the Son of God directly 344 00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:54.279 through the Theophanes and thus had a worship of the Trinity. 345 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:57.440 It doesn't matter that they knew the word trinity. If 346 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.839 they knew God, the Father, his angel, a messenger who 347 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.119 they ate with face to face, and that he had 348 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:05.759 a spirit, which is all over the Old Testament, that's 349 00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:11.640 sufficient to know that that three person unity in the 350 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:14.279 Old Testament is the Trinity, whether they knew the word 351 00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:18.000 trinity or not. And I can prove this again against 352 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.920 the stupid Trent Horne thinks, how do. 353 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.680 They know the Trinity when the word trinity wasn't used yet, 354 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.640 so therefore they didn't know the Trinity. 355 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.279 Do you understand how dumb that argument is. That means 356 00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.599 that the New Testament doesn't teach the Trinity because the 357 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:35.279 word trinity wasn't used. That's so stupid. So Justin Martin 358 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:37.799 wasn't arguing for the Trinity against Trifle the jew because 359 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:40.400 he wasn't using the word trendititass Yet, this is so silly. 360 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.119 This is the level of argumentation and debate that we 361 00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:49.160 have to use with these people that we're dealing with. Now, 362 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.359 we're going to open this up to debate. It's not 363 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:54.440 just about Catholicism today because obviously this topic relates to 364 00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.200 the Muslims. Well, again, let's go through the rest of 365 00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:01.039 the statement again, because this statement, which qualifies limagentium statement, 366 00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.720 makes it clear that Vatican too is saying, no, they 367 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:06.480 do have the faith of Abraham. They adore the one 368 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.599 God living in Saint himself, creator of having an earth, 369 00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:14.039 who has spoken to men. Now, if you listen to 370 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:17.039 many of the streams of Sam chamun Uh, and if 371 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:22.000 you listen to what Islam itself says about Allah, that 372 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:25.359 he is the greatest of deceivers, and that he wills 373 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.759 and creates evil, and that he duped his followers by 374 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.079 tricking them about Jesus on the cross, on and on on. 375 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:37.559 Does that sound like the one true God of the 376 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.319 Old Testament or does that sound like another spirit that 377 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.559 Jesus talks about. Jesus said that Satan was a liar 378 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.920 from the beginning. If Islam says there, God is the 379 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:50.640 greatest of deceivers. 380 00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:51.720 Who does that sound? 381 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:55.839 Oh, that sounds more like Satan, doesn't it? According to 382 00:27:55.880 --> 00:28:01.160 the biblical perspective. Now, remember Mohammed had said Allah has 383 00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:04.079 no sons in a spiritual or in a literal sense. 384 00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:09.200 That means that the God of Jesus, whom Jesus calls 385 00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:13.759 Father a zillion times over in the Gospels, is not 386 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:18.359 the God of Islam. That's an immediate disqualifier for them 387 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:24.079 being the same reference or the same intended intentional context 388 00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:30.319 because of romancatholical Say, well, here we go. This is 389 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.960 ed Faser's explanation. Muslims have the wrong idea, but they 390 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:39.400 intended to reference the right thing. Okay, but you just 391 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:43.119 if I asked you about Mormons, Mormons don't worship the 392 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:47.440 same god. Oh well, you see, there's basic characteristics of 393 00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:51.759 what monotheism constitutes. How do we know what the basic obvious, 394 00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:55.880 self evident characteristics of monotheism are. Oh well, we don't. 395 00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:01.359 Now doctor Khalil, for example, and I said this to Tim. 396 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.279 I said, Tim, watch this stream by doctor Khalil, because 397 00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:09.440 doctor Khalil says, if I begin with natural theology, which 398 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:13.519 Muslims do, and then I reason to what the self 399 00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:16.640 evident principles of metaphysics show me about what divine simplicity is, 400 00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:20.599 I don't get a triad. I get an absolutely simple 401 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:26.079 Islamic deity of Shia Islam, which is neoplatonism. Now I 402 00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:28.640 don't believe that there are these self evident metaphysical principles 403 00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:30.400 like that. But what I'm saying is that here you 404 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:34.200 have doctor Khalil and Tim Gordon with the same presuppositions 405 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:36.960 about what divine simplicity is when it is in terms 406 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.880 of it self evidence and the type of absolutely simple 407 00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.880 God that it demonstrates without any reference to scripture or 408 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.839 divine revelation. And doctor Khalil comes to the conclusion of 409 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.559 Islamic Shia neoplatonism. But wait a minute, Tim Gordon comes 410 00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:00.960 to the conclusion of Aristotelian tomism. What I thought that 411 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:06.720 there was a self evident, obvious Unitarian monotheism that we'd 412 00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:09.319 all agree on. Then we could later down the road 413 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:11.720 downstream from that argue Trinity in the deed of Christ. 414 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.400 The whole thing is false. That whole thing is wrong. 415 00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:19.160 There is no one Unitarian God that you reason about, 416 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:22.759 and then Trinity down the road, there is only the Trinity. 417 00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:26.440 So the whole problem with all of this is the 418 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.559 natural theology, the assumptions of Unitarianism, the belief that is 419 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:36.480 patently false that Abraham worshiped a generic Unitarian God, which 420 00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:40.440 Trent Horne constantly repeats, which Jesus refutes when he argues 421 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:43.559 with the Pharisees, you have neither seen him nor known him. 422 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.160 I knew him. Abraham worshiped me. Moses wrote about me. 423 00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:49.400 If you follow Moses, you would believe in me because 424 00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:51.599 he was talking about me, because I ate with him 425 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.759 face to face. Roman Catholics don't read the Old Testament. 426 00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.359 They are idiots about Biblical commentary. I'm not talking about 427 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:04.240 their jesuit liberal hierocritical scholars who specialize in making the 428 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:07.039 Bible fak and gray. They're very good at that, because 429 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:10.160 they're faking gray. I'm talking about the pawp apologist who 430 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:16.240 don't even know the Old Testament. And so when I 431 00:31:16.359 --> 00:31:20.680 asked him that Tim, there's the Tim Gordon that believes, Hey, wait, 432 00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:24.920 the Bible clearly is teaching the Theophanes and that Jesus 433 00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:27.880 is clearly saying that he's the one eating with Abraham, 434 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:31.279 and he's the one on the mountain eating with Moses. 435 00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:35.480 Have Romcalich's read Exodus? Do they know what's in Exodus 436 00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:39.519 thirty three? I don't think they've even read it. Who 437 00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:40.319 is being who? 438 00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:40.720 Oh? 439 00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:44.319 Is it's an angel? Does the angel? The angel does 440 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:49.519 eating Theophanes. The angels. Oh, okay, so now you believe 441 00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.920 in created angels that are called Yahweh, that are redeemers, 442 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:55.039 that forgive sins, and that are worshiped, and that Jesus 443 00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:58.400 identifies himself as so are you an arian? Is Jesus 444 00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:00.400 a creature now? Because he's the one that was eating 445 00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:06.279 with Abraham and Moses? Are you arians? I actually think 446 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:11.920 they are becoming arians. They are becoming Muslims in their theology, 447 00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:17.599 because that's more consistent with their stupid natural theology presuppositions. 448 00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:31.000 The Church regards with esteem the Muslims. Although in the 449 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:34.079 Middle Ages we call them wicked Muhammedans, we call them demnable, 450 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:36.200 heretics and anti christ, now we esteem them. How do 451 00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:40.599 you esteem Antichrist? I mean, I understand how because Francis 452 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:43.279 is not at all they are Christian in any sense. 453 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:50.000 He's a complete apostate herotic. But imagine the insanity of 454 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.920 trying to smush all this together. Imagine Sam Chamount after 455 00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:56.839 all the years of talking about how the Allah of 456 00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:00.079 the Muslims is Satan, and now he wants to go 457 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.920 in the direction of this. He's gonna have to throw 458 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.079 out all these apologetics that he's been doing for so long, 459 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:15.319 which are so effectual. I'm not saying he's a heretic. 460 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:17.440 I'm saying if he goes in this direction and he 461 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:23.359 adopts these positions, that's where he will end up. So 462 00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:26.039 do you want to give up all that previous apologetics? 463 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:32.519 And remember every Roman Catholic God I've asked, I've asked. 464 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.440 So wait a minute. Is a Mormon worshiping the same 465 00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:40.640 God as you? When it's the same terms and same words? 466 00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:42.839 Oh no, Well, what does it count? Because you see 467 00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:45.160 they're not really mono theos and blah blah blah blah blah. Okay, 468 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.319 but what why does that not apply it with a Muslim? Well, 469 00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:50.480 because they do acknowledge one God. Oh but when I'm 470 00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:52.960 a Satanist, a theistic Satanist, and I say there's one God, 471 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:55.279 does that count? No, that doesn't call because I'm still 472 00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:57.599 talking about the wrong glow of God. Yeah, that's the 473 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:02.119 thing in question. I mean, it's arbitrary, is the point. 474 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:06.400 There's no self evident idea about what the monotheism God is. 475 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.400 If you read the Garybee paper, the first five pages 476 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:13.320 point this out. He destroys Swinburne for making this stupid 477 00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:16.199 argument that there's self evident principles as to what tell 478 00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:20.320 us what lowest common denominator monotheism is. There is no 479 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:25.119 lois common nominator Unitarian monotheism. It just doesn't exist. And 480 00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:26.920 by the way, when you realize that, guess what that 481 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:31.239 cuts off? Judaism, Islam and all this nonsense. All of 482 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:36.159 this goes out the window. There is only the eternal Triad. 483 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.800 There is only the monarchical Trinity. That's it from the 484 00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:44.559 very beginning. Do you see now why it's so crucial 485 00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:48.639 for them to deny Theophanes? And again, some Roman Catholics 486 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:51.519 are better than the theology. They realize that this is 487 00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.320 a powerful apologetic, clearly as Church fathers argued against the 488 00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:59.920 Eunomians and the Jews and the Unitarian heretics by using 489 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:03.000 Old Testament Theophanies. So maybe I try, I kind of 490 00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:06.320 want to use that apologetic, but my dumb idiot Vatican 491 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:08.800 has told me no, they actually all worship the same God. 492 00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.960 It's not that difficult. This is just the same arguments 493 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:18.079 I made against Trent Horn in our debate. So do 494 00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:20.480 you do you see that all the stuff I argue 495 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:25.599 to Trent Horn is manifesting through Francis himself and what 496 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:33.519 he says, and these idiots double down, triple down. I 497 00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:35.960 don't know why. I don't know what is it about 498 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:39.960 this ridiculous system that anybody even wants I mean, unless 499 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:42.000 your skittles, I don't know why you would even want 500 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:43.679 to be in this system. What are you getting out 501 00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:47.719 of this? I mean, do you enjoy going to have 502 00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:51.760 some big, fat sixty year old woman on a liturgical 503 00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:55.239 council telling you what to do in a church? Do 504 00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:56.239 you enjoy altar? 505 00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:56.639 Girls? 506 00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:58.440 I don't know what are you? Do you enjoy the 507 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:09.599 skittles pre trying to give you spiritual advice? What is 508 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:14.159 in the system that you find so wonderful, beautiful, convincing. 509 00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:24.960 I don't get it. I don't get it. I mean, 510 00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:27.519 do you guys not understand how weak this is on 511 00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:32.320 the part of Lofton. This has been Lofton's response for 512 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:36.280 the last seven years on this topic. All he's ever 513 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:39.360 said is they got a bunch of acumenists too. Dog. 514 00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:44.880 If I look at the patriarchal whatever, he's the ecumenists too. Look, 515 00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:49.519 you got the same problems, dog. But the argument was 516 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.360 never Which system has no problems, which system has no ecumenism? 517 00:36:53.559 --> 00:37:00.239 The question is which dogmatic decrees and teachings contradicts such 518 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:07.039 that the system is not true. Now again, Islam takes 519 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:14.239 pains to submit to God's inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, 520 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:18.400 who with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure to 521 00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:23.960 link itself submitted to God. So notice here they do 522 00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:27.400 submit to God, and it is the faith of Abraham, 523 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:33.559 just like Abraham. Now everybody who's a Christian knows that 524 00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:35.880 the first thing you would do in a debate or 525 00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:38.119 in talking to a Muslim if you loved a Muslim, 526 00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:41.639 would say, listen, I understand you think you have the Abraham, 527 00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.119 the faith of Abraham, but you are deluded. You do 528 00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:46.519 not have the faith of Abraham because you have a 529 00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:52.519 generic anti Trinitarian unitarianism. Do you see? This all comes 530 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:56.119 down to whether Abraham believed in Jesus and worship the 531 00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:58.760 Trinity or not. All of this hinges on that point. 532 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.599 And if you go in the direction of Vatican two 533 00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:06.280 and it's a humanism, you must surrender that, you must 534 00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:08.800 give up the Theophanes. That's why the Roman Calloty Church 535 00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:12.719 stop teaching Theophanes in the Middle Ages, in the confrontation 536 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:18.920 with Palamas, Barleam and Acandinos explicitly reject these positions. They say, 537 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.960 it is not the uncreated light at Mount Tabor in 538 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:25.639 Matthew seventeen, it is a created light, and by extension 539 00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:28.599 that Theophanes have to be created angelic beings and not 540 00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:34.800 the son of God himself. Thus, the Old Testament religion 541 00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.159 is a unitarian religion. That's the logic of Attican two. 542 00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:43.599 That's the logic of Roman Catholicism's natural theology. That's the 543 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:48.960 logic of Islam. The same argumentation, the same presuppositions the 544 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:52.280 doctor Khalil has in his lectures on Islamic natural theology 545 00:38:53.760 --> 00:39:00.679 lead to the conclusion of Islamic unitarianism and Neoplatonism. So, Tim, 546 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:04.119 all you other Roman Catholics, when are you going to 547 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:09.920 become a Muslim? Because they're natural theology presuppositions. Clearly, it's 548 00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:14.039 self evident, isn't it. Why wouldn't you conclude with Shia 549 00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:27.519 Islam on the basis of natural theology, they find moral 550 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:31.239 life and worship God. Especially, they value the moral life 551 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:34.000 and worship God through prayer, alms, giving, and fascinating. This 552 00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:37.679 clearly says again proving my point that when voti continue 553 00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.920 uses the word adoration, the Muslims adore the One True God, 554 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:45.800 they mean worship because it's restated. The Muslims worship that is, God, 555 00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:49.239 accepts the Islamic prayers and the Islamic attributions of who 556 00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:52.800 God is, even though again they don't believe he's a father. 557 00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:57.440 Allah is not a father. How in the world are 558 00:39:57.519 --> 00:39:59.519 we going to link this to the supposed God of 559 00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:02.400 the Old test when one of the most obvious facts 560 00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:04.360 about the Old Testament is that the God of the 561 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.599 Old Testament is God the Father. Even if you're a Unitarian, 562 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:11.159 even if you're an anti Trinitarian, even Unitarians and Jews 563 00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:13.119 can recognize that the God of the Old Testament is 564 00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:16.280 God the Father. So this is how stupid Islam is. 565 00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:20.880 They think they have a commonality with the Old Testament 566 00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:24.239 while being so foolish as to reject the idea that 567 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:30.880 God is the Father. That immediately cuts you off from 568 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:35.000 the most obvious name of the God of the Old Testament, 569 00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:40.239 the Father. This is so preposterous to me, And yet 570 00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:46.480 Vatican two says Muslims worship God through their prayers and 571 00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.079 their alm giving, and they're fasting. But that is not 572 00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:54.000 the God of the Old Testament. I mean, imagine me 573 00:40:54.119 --> 00:41:02.239 saying I explicitly reject God, God the Father, and a 574 00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.920 Catholic says, brother, don't worry about it. We all worship 575 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:10.719 the same God. Again, the point has proven with Mormons. 576 00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.000 Every Catholic I've asked says, no, I don't worship the 577 00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:16.880 same God as a Mormon. And yet they turn around 578 00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:21.559 and say, but it is the same God of Islam. Again, 579 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:24.719 why is a Mormon actually not closer than a Muslim 580 00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:28.320 if it's based on the terms that are used. A 581 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:31.519 Mormon says the terms father, son, spirit, and Jesus is 582 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:34.360 divine and is the son of God. Those are terms 583 00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:40.719 that's grammar closer to you. Oh, it's not about the 584 00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:42.840 words and the terms of what they mean. Oh, it's 585 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.679 about what they mean. Oh exactly. So then Muslims don't 586 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:48.840 have the same God because they don't mean a God 587 00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:51.599 who is trinitarian. You see how either way they go 588 00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:54.960 in this argument, they collapse, They destroy their own position. 589 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:03.960 And again, why isn't Vatican too simply saying what the 590 00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:08.119 traditional trade cat teaching always said that Islam is Antichrist. 591 00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:11.639 Why wouldn't it just say what supposedly had always said? 592 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:18.599 Why are we having all of this weaponized ambiguity, which 593 00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:21.920 here at least is not very ambiguous. So when I 594 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.039 read these statements and then I go over here and 595 00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:28.320 I see Francis saying the Document of Human Fraternity that 596 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:42.639 God wills all the religions, why wouldn't we think that 597 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:52.880 it's the same meaning as what's in Vatican two. I'm 598 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:57.480 trying to find this specific statement in this document because 599 00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:05.000 it was it was a famous fussed about thing in 600 00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:19.800 twenty nineteen. So remember this is the joint declaration with 601 00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.880 the Imam. We who believe in God, Well, we don't 602 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:25.280 believe in the same God as I mom, though, So 603 00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:27.960 how is it? How is the document starts out with 604 00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:35.079 a ridiculous position. The first and most important aim of 605 00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:41.039 religions is to believe in God. So what I'm trying 606 00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:43.440 to get across to you, I think, which is the 607 00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:52.360 key point here, is that if you don't understand that 608 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:56.039 the Old Testament teaches the Trinity, and if you don't 609 00:43:56.119 --> 00:43:59.880 understand that Jesus is saying that in John five, no, 610 00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:03.639 I can't understand or fathom how you could call yourself 611 00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:05.559 or be a Christian. It doesn't make sense to me 612 00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:09.159 because these are mutually exclusive positions. It cannot be the 613 00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:12.400 case that the Old Testament teaches the Trinity and that 614 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:16.360 Jesus says that, and that the Old Testament's unitarian. But 615 00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:29.199 those are mutually exclusive. But it can't be both. I'm 616 00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:31.280 trying to find this statement in this document where it 617 00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:46.079 says that God wills all the religions. Maybe it's religions. 618 00:44:46.840 --> 00:45:10.159 Let's try that, Okay, Let's see. Freedom is a right 619 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.039 of every person. Each individual enjoys the freedom of belief, thought, expression, 620 00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:16.960 and action. By the way, that was actually condemned proposition. 621 00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:20.760 Formerly the Ron Macalliy Church used to condemn the Protestant 622 00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:23.440 doctrine of the freedom of conscience and freedom of worship. 623 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:28.599 That's something that Vatican two contradicted on. And yes, I 624 00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:31.000 know they have a million copes to explain how that's 625 00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:34.000 not a contradiction, but I mean, flat out, I mean 626 00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:36.280 Martin Luther's positions on these were condemned a the time 627 00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:42.360 of the Reformation. There are statements in the Syllabus of 628 00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:45.199 Errors that condemned the idea of the freedom of conscience, 629 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:47.920 freedom of religion. And now this is a vaticant too teaching, 630 00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:51.760 and it's restated here. So that's one dogmatic contradiction right there. 631 00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:57.920 The pluralism and the diversity of the religions, the color, 632 00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:01.079 the sex, the relay, race, and language are willed by 633 00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.239 God in his wisdom through which he created human beings. 634 00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:09.079 There it is so, God, through creation willed there to 635 00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:13.480 be various religions. So notice the cope that they used 636 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:19.079 on today's statement that when Francis says, where was it? 637 00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:21.960 Oh? 638 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:26.400 Oh, when Francis says this, you see, this just means 639 00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.719 the diversity of the Catholic traditions. That was one of 640 00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:36.559 the Catholic apologists copes today. I saw, Oh, really, why 641 00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:39.360 if he's speaking the Catholics, does he call it multiple religions? 642 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:43.880 Are there multiple religions amongst Catholicism? I mean, actually there are, 643 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:48.599 which is funny. Unity is not uniformity, and the diversity 644 00:46:48.639 --> 00:46:50.880 of our culture, religions and identities is a gift from God. 645 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:56.480 It's unity and diversity, religions plural Well guess what, that's 646 00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:00.280 exactly what his twenty nineteen document with the Grandy Moms said, 647 00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:09.360 God wills all of these different religions. So again to 648 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.800 highlight be I want you to be clear and understand 649 00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:13.519 the argument I make it because a lot of you 650 00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:16.960 are not going to understand the argument. When this document 651 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:20.519 came out in twenty nineteen, their explanation was no, no, 652 00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:24.960 this just means God wills it in a general providential 653 00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:27.719 sense and that he passively accepts. It's not that he 654 00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:32.880 wants it. So the language here is interpreter to mean 655 00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:39.000 not diversity, not a real diversity that he wants. The 656 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:44.119 same language over here, Oh, it's a diversity that he wants, 657 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:48.480 you see, but only amongst Catholics, even though it says 658 00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:54.400 various religions plural. So they've contradicted themselves in interpreting the 659 00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:59.119 same language to fit to make it work. Do you 660 00:47:59.159 --> 00:47:59.800 see what I'm saying? 661 00:47:59.840 --> 00:47:59.920 Do you? 662 00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:08.159 That's a very specific, precise argument. Here, various religions does 663 00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:13.280 not mean actual religions. It just means God permits it. Oh, 664 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:17.360 but over here it does mean God wills different religions, 665 00:48:18.199 --> 00:48:23.639 meaning different Catholic traditions. That's their code. So the same 666 00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:28.039 phraseology is given totally different meanings to make this dumb 667 00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:31.880 system work, which means it's an unfalsifiable system, which means 668 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.880 it's a weak system, because any system that is constantly 669 00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:41.480 propped up with unfalsifiability with Kazustri is a totally weak system. 670 00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:44.519 But remember, this was supposed to be the rock of Peter, 671 00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:47.159 the rock of the papacy that would stand firm until 672 00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:51.119 the end of time, as the visible testament to the 673 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:56.519 unity of the true Roman papal faith. And that's why 674 00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:58.800 I wrote my essay and I made it public. You 675 00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:02.159 can go read all the actual quotes that also deal 676 00:49:02.199 --> 00:49:04.079 with the copes from a couple of days ago. I'm 677 00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:05.719 not going to repeat this. We already covered this in 678 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:08.960 two live streams on a video. I'm not gonna again. 679 00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:12.119 They don't read Vatican One. They don't know what Vatican 680 00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:18.360 one says. Because Vatican one says there will be popes 681 00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:22.360 as the attesters too and the protectors of this visible 682 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:26.960 global unity until the end of time. So no great 683 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.280 apostasy where there's no pope for fifty years or a 684 00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:32.039 hundred years. That's not there because it's until the end 685 00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:35.400 of time. There will be shepherds until the end of time. 686 00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:39.039 This is talking about the Petrine Office. This is Vatican 687 00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:45.599 one that institution will be permanent and will retain its 688 00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:49.239 nature that it has until the end of time, not 689 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.880 until the end times, giving this out for them to 690 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:57.679 have a vast apostasy. Even if there's an apostasy in 691 00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:01.159 the Roman Catholic system, it has to still be the 692 00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:03.960 case that the Roman Sea maintains the faith until the 693 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:06.760 return of Christ. So let's say, if we wanted to 694 00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:09.360 have an apostasy that fits with the Vatican one view. 695 00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:14.000 It means that all the let's say, all the bishops fail, 696 00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:17.800 but the Sea of Peter cannot fail. That's the Vatican 697 00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:22.760 one position. You can't go with apparitions to Trump. Vatican one, 698 00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:27.159 Vatican one, Trump's apparitions. In the Roman Catholic system, you 699 00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:31.480 follow the dogmas, you follow the teaching of the Roman 700 00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:36.280 Sea in Catholicism. You don't get to take an apparition 701 00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:38.400 and say, oh, well, Lasilette says that there's going to 702 00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:42.079 be an apostasy in Rome. Yeah, but Losilette was prior 703 00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:46.880 to Vatican one and Vatican one. Trump's las Lette. I 704 00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:49.360 kid you not. When I was scrolling through Roman Catholic 705 00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:51.840 comments the past couple of days, what are they all 706 00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:54.920 turning to a vast clump of them are turning to 707 00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:00.320 Marian apparitions. This is the foolishness of this religion to 708 00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:05.719 turn to goofy contradictory Maryan apparitions and not even go 709 00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:11.639 with their own freaking Vatican one dogmas, no wonder their 710 00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:16.199 skittles in effeminate. They follow a woman's apparitions that they 711 00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:18.119 think are merry, which they can never proves Mary, by 712 00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:22.119 the way, because every time they try to argue that 713 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:26.000 it's really Mary, and I bring up Mary appearing to 714 00:51:26.119 --> 00:51:30.400 the Coptics, Well that one doesn't count. That one doesn't count. 715 00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:33.760 What about Mary appearing to Orthodox churches, Well that one 716 00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:34.320 doesn't count. 717 00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:35.039 That's not Mary. 718 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:40.559 Get out of here. We're not gonna have stupid Christian 719 00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:47.119 identity heretics in here. Get out of here. Remember that 720 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:50.320 rom Akelloching a month ago, he literally sat here for 721 00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:53.639 two hours trying to figure out how to make the 722 00:51:53.719 --> 00:51:58.960 Maryan apparitions work as proofs when he wouldn't accept the 723 00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:04.920 married apparitions of the Coptics. And then eventually he was like, Okay, 724 00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:07.719 well maybe the Coptic a versions are true, and Mary 725 00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:10.360 is saying that Coptics are also Roman Catholics. Okay, well, 726 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:12.639 thank you for admitting that Mary is telling us now 727 00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:15.079 that we don't need the papacy because the Coptics haven't 728 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:20.320 accepted the papacy for centuries. So it's like everywhere they turn, 729 00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:24.119 the whole position, the whole system is canceled out and 730 00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:26.920 they can't get it wide because they won't think about, 731 00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:31.400 or listen or understand critiques at a system level. They 732 00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:33.519 cannot grasp this is what I figured out today. They 733 00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:37.880 can't grasp an internal critique. Lofton cannot grasp this, Ibarro 734 00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:41.880 cannot grasp this. That's why I Loten thinks that it's 735 00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:47.480 a sufficient reply to say you go to a Cumanists too. Yeah, 736 00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:50.519 but if I thought that the patriarch of Alexandria was 737 00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:53.440 what Vatican One claims, that might be a good argument. 738 00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:57.760 Like Snack always says, well, there goes my faith in 739 00:52:57.800 --> 00:53:03.559 the infallible, indefectible see of alexand Andrea. It's like, why 740 00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:08.760 can they not understand an internal critique. It's baffling. Remember 741 00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:10.559 when I was debating a barrow, it's the same situation. 742 00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:15.039 If you could show a contradiction between paopal dogmas, that 743 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:22.320 would be enough. Okay, all it takes is one contradiction, right, supposedly, 744 00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:25.760 isn't that enough to I mean, the nature of I'm 745 00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:27.480 beginning to think they don't understand the nature of the 746 00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:30.480 Roman Catholic system is such that if there's a dogmatic contradiction, 747 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:36.559 the system doesn't work. It falls apart. That's all that's 748 00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:43.679 necessary for an internal critique to disprove the system at 749 00:53:43.719 --> 00:53:48.519 a systemic level, and for Michael often to say, but 750 00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:51.320 you have the same problem with a Cumuinus bishops dog 751 00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:57.440 it doesn't work because he's importing his system on the mind. 752 00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:02.440 I mean, this is such a low level response. It's 753 00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:05.840 baffling to me that, And I think really Lofton has 754 00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:08.920 kind of retired into just going for the lowest common 755 00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:12.159 that like the lowest tier of converting people. He's just 756 00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:15.679 going for like super low tier numbers because there's no 757 00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:18.119 way he's ever going to debate anybody of anything. He's 758 00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:19.079 never debated anybody. 759 00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:20.159 No. 760 00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:22.760 Uh, he challenged you to a debate, you wouldn't do it. 761 00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:26.400 He challenged me to a written debate, a written debate 762 00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:28.960 in twenty twenty four. Don't nobody do written debates? Dude? 763 00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:33.199 Get out of here with that boomer crap. That's the 764 00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:37.400 same thing that Lecoutis did. I can't debate you. I 765 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.440 have hiccups. That was his excuse. I'm not joking by 766 00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:42.880 the way. He then went and debated. Didn't he debate UBI? 767 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:47.360 So he can debate UBI? But he wouldn't debate me 768 00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:52.639 because he has hiccup disorder? What hiccup disorder? And then 769 00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:56.320 he said, I'll debate you written for him written. I'm 770 00:54:56.360 --> 00:55:00.760 not writing a book against romeccality's. I can just refute 771 00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:04.719 this in a live stream. Nobody does book written debates. Dude. 772 00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:09.280 This is not two thousand and seven blog warfare. Oh bro, 773 00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:11.440 I'm gonna get on my zanga and I will destroy 774 00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:14.960 you on my zanga tonight. Do people they don't even 775 00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:20.239 know what zanga is. In two thousand and six, dude, 776 00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:23.280 all of the warfare was zanga. You gotta go where 777 00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:26.559 the battle is. This is a two thousand and six man. 778 00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:30.480 Nobody's on zanga. Nobody's writing twenty page blog responses anymore. 779 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:40.599 This twenty twenty four. Bro, all right, I've been yapping 780 00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:45.440 long enough. It's open topics, man, and I want if 781 00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:47.760 you disagree, you want to come debate. You come, you'll 782 00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:50.239 go to the head of the line. Please don't ask 783 00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:53.960 me orthodox FQ questions. Please don't. I'm asking, I'm humbly 784 00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:57.159 requesting you to not do that tonight. If you want 785 00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:01.000 to answer your Orthodox FAQ questions, guess what you should do. 786 00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:03.360 You should go to your Orthodox church and learn it. 787 00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:09.480 Enough of this internet stuff, too much time online. Go 788 00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:12.679 to the real church, the actual, living, embodied church, not 789 00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:16.239 the abstract one in the internet sphere, because that's the 790 00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:21.920 only one. If you want the basics everybody needs to 791 00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:25.880 get Orthodox dogmatic theology by Palmazansky. You can go watch 792 00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:29.360 FDA's lectures. He's been working through this book for months. 793 00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:32.639 Go to his channel Patristic Faith. You can go through 794 00:56:33.199 --> 00:56:35.199 his lectures. If you don't have a priest or anybody, right, 795 00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:38.639 that's where you get your catechisis. Don't get your catechisas 796 00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:42.199 from debate streams. If they help you out, that's good. 797 00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:48.079 But the more that I've read this book over time, 798 00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:54.320 I think it is a really good catechism. And most 799 00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:57.760 of the controversial topics within Orthodoxy that come up, he's 800 00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:00.880 got pretty good accounts of how to deal with those, 801 00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:08.360 whether it's Augustinianism or you know, Philly ok Way or whatever. 802 00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:13.920 It's treated very well overall in this book. So remember 803 00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:15.840 you need to get the basics before you try to 804 00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:18.719 get into the nitty gritty of Oh, I'm gonna jump 805 00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:22.320 right into the eternal manifestation of the movement of the Energies. 806 00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:25.480 Get the basics down first, Okay, before you try to 807 00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:28.440 get into that stuff. Too many people, twenty year old 808 00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:32.719 people try to immediately go into the most difficult Orthodox 809 00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:37.239 doctrines and that's usually ends up in disaster and then 810 00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:39.199 they'll mess up and they miss some basic thing that 811 00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:41.760 they should have laid the groundwork first. So remember what 812 00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:46.440 Paul says, lay a strong foundation. You gotta lay the 813 00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:50.079 foundation before you try to jump to the THHD doctor 814 00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:56.920 Bradshaw level stuff. So if you need Kateakisis, read the 815 00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:02.679 Pomazansky book. Don't ask me about your marriage problems, don't 816 00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:05.480 ask me about your fasting questions, don't ask me about 817 00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:08.079 your canon law questions. None of that is me. I 818 00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:11.880 don't do that, and it's not appropriate for Internet nerds 819 00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:15.920 to be doing that. Anyway. We got a couple of supertests, 820 00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:19.039 then we're going to open it up for debate. I'm 821 00:58:19.079 --> 00:58:20.840 a list of topics for you. If you don't listen, 822 00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:23.159 if you don't come with the topics, it's immediate boot. 823 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:25.320 We're not going to listen to your poetry. I don't 824 00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:28.119 care about your slam poetry. I don't care how good 825 00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:30.599 you think your bars are. I bet I spit better bars. 826 00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:32.559 I guarantee you that I don't care how good you 827 00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:36.039 think you're sing. I don't care about your What else 828 00:58:36.199 --> 00:58:41.800 is there storytelling? Your gnostic ancient alien storytelling? Actually that's 829 00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:43.880 pretty entertaining. So if you're a Gnostic and you want 830 00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:45.679 to come tell me about ancient aliens and all that stuff, 831 00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:47.559 you go to the head of the line. Chris JD. 832 00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:51.960 Three dollars. Is it not exhausting if you're a papist 833 00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:54.519 or a papal lawyer to continue covering for this system. 834 00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:57.639 It's crazy. It is exhausting. And I did it. So 835 00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:00.719 to again stress this point, all the stuff that you're 836 00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:03.079 seeing everybody go through right now, I did all this. 837 00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:04.920 I went through all this in the year of two 838 00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:07.480 thousand and four or five, six, seven, eight nine. I 839 00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:11.920 was doing all I struggle with all this, and that's 840 00:59:11.960 --> 00:59:17.039 why I know the Roman Catholic doctrines and documents like 841 00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:22.440 Sam Schmoun knows the Hot Deaths and the Qur'an. I 842 00:59:22.599 --> 00:59:26.400 know Denzinger. Let's go to Denzinger. You guys have seen 843 00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:32.559 my Denzinger. It's all sticky notes. I live this, I 844 00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:39.639 breathe this, the Roman system, and that's why for years 845 00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:45.360 their excuse, well, he's you mean bumblebee three dollars. Do 846 00:59:45.440 --> 00:59:47.000 you think this is shaping up to be a religion 847 00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:51.000 of Antichrist? It certainly could be. We don't know if 848 00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:53.719 it's the end of the world. It could be. I 849 00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:56.119 do think there are certain prophecies and the Orthodox tradition 850 00:59:56.199 --> 00:59:58.519 that we clearly think have to be fulfilled to have 851 00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:02.159 me fulfilled. So I wouldn't rush to say, oh, this 852 01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:05.199 is the end of the world. But you know, it's 853 01:00:05.239 --> 01:00:08.880 also possible that those prophecies could happen quick For example, 854 01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:11.159 the conversion of the Jews, the conversion of the world 855 01:00:11.199 --> 01:00:14.639 in mass those could happen within a small frame of time. 856 01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:19.280 So perhaps, but then again, we may have another thousand years. 857 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:24.159 We don't know, but it does look like given the 858 01:00:24.760 --> 01:00:26.679 topic that we look at quite often over here on 859 01:00:26.719 --> 01:00:29.599 this channel, which is the geopolitics of the papacy and 860 01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:33.519 the geopolitics of religion in general, including within the Orthodox Church. 861 01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:36.480 So this is another falsehood, the Rome mecaloicy. So you 862 01:00:36.519 --> 01:00:39.400 won't talk about ecumenist bishops and the Orthodox Church. Yes 863 01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:44.000 I have for years. Not true, but if you don't 864 01:00:44.039 --> 01:00:45.800 listen to my streams, you wouldn't. 865 01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:45.679 Know that. 866 01:00:54.800 --> 01:01:01.840 Where was the loss of the super chat But that, 867 01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:03.920 by the way, is why we have for many years 868 01:01:04.039 --> 01:01:08.480 covered the close connection between the Vatican and the world 869 01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:12.199 power of the geopolitical power leader the West, the Atlantis 870 01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:17.440 power block, et cetera. And remember when we started, you know, 871 01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:21.440 really hammering that home, especially during the Kouf. Remember that 872 01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:26.760 Lofton and Trent and probably still have this. They act 873 01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:31.039 like this doesn't exist. Trent and Lofton have consistently says 874 01:01:31.079 --> 01:01:33.880 this about twenty twenty, maybe twenty nineteen. There's no such 875 01:01:33.920 --> 01:01:37.000 thing as a push for world government. That's all crazy conspiracy. 876 01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:40.159 Imagine thinking that these people who have absolutely no discernment 877 01:01:40.239 --> 01:01:44.159 about the times and where we are, no knowledge whatsoever 878 01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:47.280 of a real push for a global governance world in 879 01:01:47.320 --> 01:01:50.880 comy form, Davos, all this stuff. They have no knowledge 880 01:01:50.920 --> 01:01:53.480 of this. They still deny it, but they're going to 881 01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:58.719 tell you about through their discernment the papacy, Francis and 882 01:01:58.760 --> 01:02:00.679 all this nonsense. How are they going to do that? 883 01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:03.280 They can't even what does Jesus say to the Pharisees? 884 01:02:03.400 --> 01:02:05.639 Do you not know the times? Are you so ignorant? 885 01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:08.360 You can't understand the time? Meaning that they didn't understand 886 01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:11.719 that it was the time of his coming, So they 887 01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:14.599 had no discernment the Pharisees and the Jews of his day, 888 01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:19.000 according to this critique, and I'm saying this same principle 889 01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:23.000 applies to Lofton and Trent Horne. They have absolutely no 890 01:02:23.079 --> 01:02:26.320 discernment or knowledge of global governance or the push for 891 01:02:26.440 --> 01:02:29.239 any of this. They're still acting like this doesn't exist. 892 01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:32.880 These people are completely clueless. And that's why, by the way, 893 01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:35.360 I also challenged all the Roman calics. I went out 894 01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:38.719 looking for academic Roman Catholics historians to debate me on 895 01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:41.159 the geopolitics of the papacy. None of them will do it. 896 01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.280 I've asked probably a dozen of them. None of them 897 01:02:44.280 --> 01:02:49.400 will do it. I put out multiple public requests with 898 01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:53.719 hundreds of likes, hundreds of shares. None of them will 899 01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:56.760 do it. They don't want to talk about the wim 900 01:02:56.800 --> 01:02:58.679 Hoff book. They don't want to talk about Gladio, they 901 01:02:58.679 --> 01:03:00.719 don't want to talk about any of this stuff which 902 01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:05.039 I've read countless books on, and maybe they know that 903 01:03:06.280 --> 01:03:08.360 they would rather retreat into. 904 01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:11.639 Oh, that's a bunch of Jack chick track stuff. 905 01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:13.280 That's crazy conspiracy stuff. 906 01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:13.719 Ha haa. 907 01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:17.280 I'm so smug and so I'm so pious and knowledgeable, 908 01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:20.079 and I just still act like it doesn't exist. And 909 01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:22.639 my audience is so stupid they follow me thinking that 910 01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:23.320 it doesn't exist. 911 01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:33.159 That gets a hand fart, that's what that gets, Dree 912 01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:36.159 one dollar. Sam Shimun did a series in the Turn 913 01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:38.599 of the Old Testament. I know I saw one of 914 01:03:38.639 --> 01:03:41.599 the videos. I didn't see the whole series, and I 915 01:03:41.679 --> 01:03:43.400 did a series as well. I did one video on it. 916 01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:46.039 We did a three hour a total of almost three 917 01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:51.199 over three hours of just Torah Torah Trinity. Sam said 918 01:03:51.239 --> 01:03:53.119 that the Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus. He 919 01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:55.199 covered all the theophanies. Of course, He's used that argument 920 01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:58.920 a million times for a long time. Has he given 921 01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:01.199 any thought to the Essen Centner distinction? How Roman Catholic 922 01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:05.039 doesn't Romantholicism doesn't affirm this. I don't know. That's a 923 01:04:05.079 --> 01:04:08.119 good question. I don't know that he has dealt with that, 924 01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:11.760 Daniel ten dollars. Mormons do all the same stuff. Once 925 01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:14.639 they see that their prophets contradict their teachings and their 926 01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:18.119 theology and that they're weird epistemologies all over the place, 927 01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:20.840 they then turn to the testimony of Joseph Smith that 928 01:04:20.920 --> 01:04:24.639 he quotes saw God the Father. They are cults and 929 01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:28.400 they rely on a lot of mental gymnastics. I think 930 01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:32.639 that that is eventually a sign that it's a cult 931 01:04:32.679 --> 01:04:36.159 thing is when you start to see people double down 932 01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:39.400 and use a lot of mental gymnastics. And think of 933 01:04:39.440 --> 01:04:47.280 the commonalities here between Mormons, Muslims, Roman Catholics, who else 934 01:04:47.599 --> 01:04:54.800 like you see? You notice the same patterns here, Dance 935 01:04:54.840 --> 01:04:58.320 Commander fifty dollars, thank you for these apologetics at a 936 01:04:58.360 --> 01:05:00.639 strengthen my faith. Do you know about roma Manian Saints 937 01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:06.320 of the Prisons? Yeah, I think Father Deacon has told 938 01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:10.360 me some of this. I've actually met Father Julian, who 939 01:05:10.519 --> 01:05:14.480 was very kind to me. And Father Julian was in 940 01:05:14.559 --> 01:05:17.960 a Romanian prison for a while. I think I think 941 01:05:18.039 --> 01:05:20.760 or he was persecuted and fled here, so he's a 942 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:25.559 pretty well known Orthodox person. But and I've heard him 943 01:05:25.639 --> 01:05:33.000 tell the stories of Romanian saints of the prisons, there 944 01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:39.039 is a certain commission that is blocking their canonization because 945 01:05:39.079 --> 01:05:42.800 they spoke out against the liberalism of the EU. Well, 946 01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:45.639 that doesn't surprise me, and I believe that that makes 947 01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:55.480 perfect sense. So justin we're going to open it up 948 01:05:55.519 --> 01:05:58.320 right here. Please please do not weigh me down with 949 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:04.480 your questions about fasting and those kinds of stuff. Please 950 01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:07.039 don't please. And it never fails because every time we 951 01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:09.360 open it up, half of the people just want to 952 01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:13.360 ask me questions about what about the jurisdictions of the 953 01:06:13.639 --> 01:06:17.519 EP versus the MPU. What's going to happen If I 954 01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:19.840 don't know what's going to happen. If there's a ex 955 01:06:19.880 --> 01:06:22.119 communication of those two, there'll be a giant split down 956 01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:25.320 the church. That's the best I could tell you. But 957 01:06:25.400 --> 01:06:26.960 by the way, that's happened in the history of the Church. 958 01:06:27.079 --> 01:06:30.159 There have been patriarch its excommunicating one another. That's happened 959 01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:33.719 in church history. So how would that if that is 960 01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:40.000 in itself a defeater for the church, then do Roman 961 01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:43.159 Catholics not understand that If the Roman Catholic Church is 962 01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:45.519 the church of the first thousand years, that's a defeater 963 01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:50.519 for your system. Dummy. If you're arguing that patriarch it's 964 01:06:50.559 --> 01:06:54.280 excommunicating each other is a defeater for the system, then 965 01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:57.840 the excommunications of patriarchs in the first thousand years of 966 01:06:57.880 --> 01:07:00.440 the church are a defeater for your sistem. You don't 967 01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:04.880 see how silly that is. It's such a it's like 968 01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:07.360 they're they're actually I think they're blinded to these things. 969 01:07:07.639 --> 01:07:11.280 I really think you can't. You're blinded to these things. 970 01:07:11.360 --> 01:07:13.920 You don't see these things unless there's a kind of 971 01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:19.400 humility and a willingness to to think maybe you're wrong. 972 01:07:22.239 --> 01:07:24.480 Jay did a three hour Torah stream on the tour 973 01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:27.519 the Trinity in the Torah with who with myself. Literally, 974 01:07:27.639 --> 01:07:30.400 just go to my channel. You lazy people that constantly 975 01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:32.639 ask me where is this? Will go to my channel 976 01:07:32.679 --> 01:07:37.320 and scroll down the Trinity in the Torah. It's right there. 977 01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:41.599 By. 978 01:07:41.719 --> 01:07:46.519 You see, I end up, I end up ranting for 979 01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:46.920 an hour. 980 01:07:49.119 --> 01:07:52.480 Yes, hi, I'm learning to ask you about it. I 981 01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:54.639 just saw a clip I think it got posted today. 982 01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:57.440 Debate you had with the more Men and he had 983 01:07:57.480 --> 01:08:01.920 asked you how you know the Bible true, and I 984 01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:06.440 believe you said it was the transcendental argument, and that 985 01:08:08.320 --> 01:08:12.000 because the the Trinity is necessary for knowledge and the 986 01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:14.239 Trinity is only revealed in the Bible. 987 01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:15.639 Is that correct? 988 01:08:16.560 --> 01:08:16.680 Uh? 989 01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:20.840 Pretty much, that's the route I would go, Yeah, okay. 990 01:08:21.279 --> 01:08:25.319 So then I mean, how does that argue for say, 991 01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:33.319 the validity of Ruth chapter two or Second Samuel chapter five. 992 01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:36.960 Hold on, you're spitting these things out. What specifically is 993 01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:38.680 in Ruth two that's supposed to be a problem. 994 01:08:40.039 --> 01:08:41.760 Oh well, I don't know. I mean, I guess the 995 01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:42.960 point is, you know. 996 01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:44.600 What I mean, you don't know? Why are you signing 997 01:08:44.680 --> 01:08:45.640 rod too? If you don't know why? 998 01:08:47.239 --> 01:08:50.520 Well, the point is it's irrelevant what's what's in there? 999 01:08:50.840 --> 01:08:53.560 The point is, how does that? How does that prove 1000 01:08:53.680 --> 01:08:56.520 that the whole Bible is true? Every part of the Bible. 1001 01:08:56.479 --> 01:08:59.680 Because part of the worldview includes that the wholest it's 1002 01:08:59.680 --> 01:09:02.159 a wholestic arguments and arguing for the entire worldview. 1003 01:09:05.560 --> 01:09:11.039 So you would need all every every book, every version 1004 01:09:11.079 --> 01:09:13.640 of the Bible to be true for the Trinity to 1005 01:09:13.760 --> 01:09:14.159 be true. 1006 01:09:16.439 --> 01:09:18.880 Well, God didn't have to reveal himself in the Trinity 1007 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:21.560 but that's the means that he chose to use, right, 1008 01:09:21.760 --> 01:09:25.279 is divine revelation in scripture and tradition. So in the 1009 01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:27.680 sense that because that's the means he used, yes, but 1010 01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:30.720 it's not the Bible wasn't necessary, right, I mean God was, 1011 01:09:31.439 --> 01:09:33.359 God had a relationship with Adam and Eve before there 1012 01:09:33.439 --> 01:09:35.720 was anything written down, and the Trinity was there in 1013 01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:39.119 Genesis right before anything that was recorded or written. So 1014 01:09:39.319 --> 01:09:41.039 there's not there's it's not like it has to be 1015 01:09:41.119 --> 01:09:45.279 written or something like that. It's just how providentially within 1016 01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:47.399 history it came down to us. So what I'm saying 1017 01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:50.640 is that there's a fixed body of beliefs, and it 1018 01:09:50.680 --> 01:09:52.399 would still be true even if it wasn't written down 1019 01:09:52.520 --> 01:09:54.279 because the early Church, many of the many of the 1020 01:09:55.319 --> 01:09:57.760 members of the Church in the first few centuries, they 1021 01:09:57.800 --> 01:10:00.359 couldn't read, and they didn't have access to a complete 1022 01:10:00.399 --> 01:10:02.439 canon of scripture, and yet they still have the faith. 1023 01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:06.560 So the written version is just another kind of attestation 1024 01:10:07.119 --> 01:10:10.359 that helps demonstrate that it's true. It's not like it's 1025 01:10:10.720 --> 01:10:14.359 it's the religion is dependent upon something being written down 1026 01:10:14.399 --> 01:10:14.760 per se. 1027 01:10:16.760 --> 01:10:20.319 Yes, Okay, I really understand that. 1028 01:10:20.439 --> 01:10:24.520 I just don't see how the Trinity being necessary. 1029 01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:27.159 For knowledge proves the entire Bible is true and in 1030 01:10:27.439 --> 01:10:28.800 every job. 1031 01:10:28.800 --> 01:10:32.199 In till them, because it's an argument not just for 1032 01:10:32.359 --> 01:10:35.399 the Trinity before the entire Christian worldview, and part of 1033 01:10:35.479 --> 01:10:38.800 the Christian worldview is that the Bible is true and 1034 01:10:38.880 --> 01:10:43.520 that it's necessary for faith, et cetera. So I think 1035 01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:45.880 you keep thinking of it as an argument just for 1036 01:10:46.159 --> 01:10:49.600 a trinity. There's no such thing as trinity in isolation 1037 01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:54.000 from incarnation or trinity in isolation from what Jesus teaches 1038 01:10:54.039 --> 01:10:56.800 in the Gospels. It's a package deal, is the argument. 1039 01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:03.560 Okay, So when you say trinity, that's what you're referring to, 1040 01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:05.720 is that the whole Christian. 1041 01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:09.840 Faith, orthodox Christian faith exactly. Okay. 1042 01:11:10.039 --> 01:11:13.039 So, so you need all of Christian teaching that as 1043 01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:15.680 a foundation for any knowledge, and if any one of 1044 01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:20.399 those points is missing, then than then justified true. 1045 01:11:20.239 --> 01:11:23.960 Belief is not is not founded properly. 1046 01:11:24.920 --> 01:11:30.199 Basically, Yeah, really sure. I mean, in other words, it 1047 01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:33.439 wouldn't make sense to say, well, I believe in the 1048 01:11:33.560 --> 01:11:38.039 Christian revelation and I can ground my my epistemology in 1049 01:11:38.119 --> 01:11:41.039 that revelation, but I don't believe in the incarnation like 1050 01:11:41.119 --> 01:11:44.199 that that's a key piece, right, So you wouldn't be 1051 01:11:44.199 --> 01:11:45.119 able to ground it anymore. 1052 01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:50.600 And so I couldn't. I couldn't affirm. 1053 01:11:51.960 --> 01:11:57.920 The fact that A and not A can can both 1054 01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:00.399 be true at the same time, the same in the 1055 01:12:00.479 --> 01:12:04.479 same sense, unless I believe the virgin birth. 1056 01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:07.319 Ultimately that would be the case. 1057 01:12:07.399 --> 01:12:12.039 Yes, could you like flesh that out? 1058 01:12:12.319 --> 01:12:15.960 No, because because the principle behind the law of non 1059 01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:19.600 contradiction requires some kind of metaphysic and some kind of 1060 01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:23.439 reality to ground it. Namely, I argue and we demonstrate 1061 01:12:23.479 --> 01:12:25.560 that it is the Christian worldview and the Christian metaphysic, 1062 01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:28.439 and that's the package deal that includes the virgin birth. 1063 01:12:28.760 --> 01:12:31.119 So it's not directly the case. It's not. It's an 1064 01:12:31.159 --> 01:12:34.359 indirect reference to the whole of the of the religion. 1065 01:12:34.880 --> 01:12:38.000 But more directly speaking, it would be grounded in the 1066 01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:40.560 type of God that you're using or arguing for, and 1067 01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:43.359 that God also says that the vergin of Earth is 1068 01:12:43.399 --> 01:12:44.880 a crucial part of this paradigm. 1069 01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:52.039 Okay, So if if one verse of the Bible were true, 1070 01:12:52.520 --> 01:12:54.520 or yeah, let's just say one verse. 1071 01:12:54.439 --> 01:12:57.800 Of the Bible were not true, it's made an incorrect. 1072 01:12:57.800 --> 01:13:03.800 Statement, then then no one would have any any foundation 1073 01:13:04.039 --> 01:13:05.279 for logic. 1074 01:13:05.079 --> 01:13:05.640 For a reason. 1075 01:13:06.680 --> 01:13:08.800 I mean, this can get a little technical with the 1076 01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:11.920 specific verses per se. I don't think that every verse 1077 01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:14.439 has to be I mean, because there are scribal errors. 1078 01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:17.039 And that's why I argued a minute ago that it's 1079 01:13:17.119 --> 01:13:19.640 not a matter of whether everything that's written down is 1080 01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:22.159 perfectly written down, because we're not Protestants, We're not worshiping 1081 01:13:22.199 --> 01:13:24.640 a book. You could have the religion with nothing being 1082 01:13:24.680 --> 01:13:28.279 written down. It could all be or it could listen, listen, 1083 01:13:28.359 --> 01:13:30.720 it could all be oral tradition. So I could be 1084 01:13:30.760 --> 01:13:32.600 a Christian in the year three hundred who can't read 1085 01:13:32.640 --> 01:13:36.279 and doesn't have access to the whole Gospel. Right, It's 1086 01:13:36.319 --> 01:13:41.199 not I didn't fart, it's my feet are sweaty. People 1087 01:13:41.239 --> 01:13:44.640 think I'm working over here. My feet sweat on this thing, 1088 01:13:44.680 --> 01:13:47.279 and if I scoot it sounds like it farts. We've 1089 01:13:47.319 --> 01:13:50.279 had this come up many times. But anyway, if I 1090 01:13:50.319 --> 01:13:51.880 do fart, I will let you guys. I'll let you 1091 01:13:51.920 --> 01:13:55.199 guys all know, and I'll just fart freely anyway. You 1092 01:13:55.319 --> 01:13:58.199 back to your question. Ahead, back to your question. 1093 01:14:00.159 --> 01:14:03.680 So I guess what I'm I'm saying is so you 1094 01:14:03.800 --> 01:14:05.600 said that you believe that the Bible is true in 1095 01:14:05.640 --> 01:14:08.800 the way you can know that is because the Christian 1096 01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:12.560 worldview is a foundation for all truth claims. 1097 01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:14.520 In other words, the world view, the worldview, and the 1098 01:14:14.600 --> 01:14:16.880 argument could be the same even if nothing was written down. 1099 01:14:18.039 --> 01:14:21.079 Yes, I understand like the Bible didn't hasn't existed for 1100 01:14:21.119 --> 01:14:25.439 all eternity, but truth in God has yet, so if 1101 01:14:25.479 --> 01:14:27.680 we were to so I'm just trying to like take 1102 01:14:27.760 --> 01:14:32.359 that argument and apply it to a specific verse of 1103 01:14:32.439 --> 01:14:35.600 the Bible. Let's pick a verse that's not content there. 1104 01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:38.840 Let's say there's a verse that has no textual variants. 1105 01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:42.279 All manuscripts agree in the rendering of this verse. I'm 1106 01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:45.159 sure there are many like that that are just exactly 1107 01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:53.079 the same and there's no no variation in the manuscript tradition. Okay, So, 1108 01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:56.960 and let's say that that verse had said something wrong 1109 01:14:57.439 --> 01:15:01.760 incorrect in it about the location of some you know, 1110 01:15:02.119 --> 01:15:03.159 village and. 1111 01:15:03.520 --> 01:15:08.159 You know, in in the period or something like that. 1112 01:15:09.560 --> 01:15:13.760 How would how how So you believe that every verse 1113 01:15:13.800 --> 01:15:17.279 of the Bible is true, right, and and you believe 1114 01:15:17.319 --> 01:15:20.399 that because of the Christian worldview as a foundation for knowledge, 1115 01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:25.000 So how would you how would you deal with that 1116 01:15:25.239 --> 01:15:27.960 if there was a verse that was was not true 1117 01:15:28.159 --> 01:15:29.640 or was contested like. 1118 01:15:29.720 --> 01:15:32.960 That, Well, if it's contested, that doesn't really mean it's 1119 01:15:33.039 --> 01:15:35.239 That doesn't necessarily mean it's not true because it's contested. 1120 01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:39.560 But the fact that I mean, you said, if there's 1121 01:15:39.680 --> 01:15:45.279 no scribal variations in this in this example, then why 1122 01:15:45.279 --> 01:15:47.960 would why why what would the presupposition be that it's false? Like, 1123 01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:50.000 how would I why would I know it's false? How 1124 01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:50.880 would we know it's false? 1125 01:15:53.199 --> 01:15:56.920 Well, you would know it's false by. 1126 01:15:58.760 --> 01:16:01.760 I don't know, by his historians telling you that that's 1127 01:16:01.880 --> 01:16:04.840 not possible, that you know this is that this place 1128 01:16:04.920 --> 01:16:07.880 didn't exist until later in history or something along. 1129 01:16:07.720 --> 01:16:09.239 Those world I mean, that's where it comes down to 1130 01:16:09.319 --> 01:16:12.760 presubpositions that why am I going to trust unbelieving historians 1131 01:16:12.960 --> 01:16:15.800 to tell me the truth about my book when the 1132 01:16:15.920 --> 01:16:19.119 questions are more fundamental that unbelieving historians can't give an 1133 01:16:19.119 --> 01:16:22.800 account for their worldview, Right. 1134 01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:26.680 I understand that, But so so your presupposition is going 1135 01:16:26.720 --> 01:16:30.119 into it is the Bible is true, this particular verse 1136 01:16:30.239 --> 01:16:30.920 is true. 1137 01:16:31.119 --> 01:16:33.800 Even though people say it's it's wrong. It has an error, 1138 01:16:33.880 --> 01:16:34.600 And I know that. 1139 01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:41.239 Because the Christian worldview is the foundation for knowledge, and this. 1140 01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:44.039 Your whole argument is just yeah, this whole argument is 1141 01:16:44.079 --> 01:16:46.520 just hinging on a Protestant view of scripture, like like 1142 01:16:46.640 --> 01:16:49.039 that that we're book worshiper. It's like a Muslim idea 1143 01:16:49.039 --> 01:16:51.199 about the Quran. But that's not the orthodox view of 1144 01:16:51.279 --> 01:16:52.479 what our divine revelation is. 1145 01:16:54.520 --> 01:16:57.239 Okay, so you're okay with with a verse here they're 1146 01:16:57.439 --> 01:16:59.600 just saying something incorrect. 1147 01:17:00.319 --> 01:17:02.840 No, I'm just simply saying that I don't think that 1148 01:17:02.920 --> 01:17:06.520 there's incorrect versus. I think there's variant manuscripts and there 1149 01:17:06.520 --> 01:17:09.319 are scribal errors, but that doesn't that doesn't mean that 1150 01:17:09.479 --> 01:17:10.960 there's erroneous theology. 1151 01:17:13.079 --> 01:17:14.720 Okay, Yeah, all right. 1152 01:17:14.800 --> 01:17:18.840 I was just trying to use your your epistemology to 1153 01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:21.399 try and think of like a thought experiment. 1154 01:17:21.800 --> 01:17:24.560 No, I'm sure it's it's a fair question. Yeah, it's 1155 01:17:24.600 --> 01:17:28.479 a fair question to say, Well, like, if it's a 1156 01:17:28.560 --> 01:17:31.560 package deal, then does every piece of the package have 1157 01:17:31.720 --> 01:17:35.119 the same necessity? And I would actually argue no. In 1158 01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:38.720 other words, obviously there are there are some doctrines that 1159 01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:42.399 are more fundamental than other doctrines. So even though it's 1160 01:17:42.439 --> 01:17:44.680 a package deal, that doesn't mean that I have to 1161 01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:48.920 know every aspect of the package to have a justification, 1162 01:17:49.520 --> 01:17:51.279 because that would be the that would be impossible for 1163 01:17:51.359 --> 01:17:54.680 any worldview. Nobody could have all of the facts of 1164 01:17:54.800 --> 01:17:57.199 their worldview if that was what was needed for justification 1165 01:17:57.279 --> 01:17:58.560 of a worldview. Does that make sense. 1166 01:17:59.520 --> 01:18:05.119 Yeah, there's different tiers of facts, so obviously, like the Trinity, 1167 01:18:05.199 --> 01:18:07.920 the incarnation, these will be a top tier type of thing. 1168 01:18:08.760 --> 01:18:13.840 So you said that you have made that argument where 1169 01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:17.159 you where you go through the full argument of how 1170 01:18:17.319 --> 01:18:20.520 the Christian worldview is needed as a foundation for knowledge. 1171 01:18:20.920 --> 01:18:22.199 Yeah, I've done it many many times. 1172 01:18:23.279 --> 01:18:26.840 Okay, do you recall offhand a title or a video? 1173 01:18:26.920 --> 01:18:28.159 Well, I mean, how about I just do it right 1174 01:18:28.199 --> 01:18:31.560 now because everybody always asks this question. So anytime you 1175 01:18:31.840 --> 01:18:34.840 say predicate at all, if you make a sentence, that 1176 01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:37.560 requires a certain kind of metaphysic, a certain kind of world, 1177 01:18:38.000 --> 01:18:42.640 a certain kind of construct to where there's universals, there 1178 01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:46.840 are particulars, there's identity over time, there is a self, 1179 01:18:47.199 --> 01:18:51.800 there's a nowhere like, there's objective knowledge, there are laws 1180 01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:54.600 of logic. You understand that all those things are necessary 1181 01:18:54.760 --> 01:18:57.640 to make a sentence, and so that kind of world 1182 01:18:58.399 --> 01:19:00.720 is the world that they're just so hops the Christian 1183 01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:03.640 God creates the universals are grounded in him. It's a 1184 01:19:03.720 --> 01:19:08.159 form of divine conceptualism. Therefore it's Christian theism. That's I mean, 1185 01:19:08.239 --> 01:19:10.640 there's more to it. But how's that for a short summation. 1186 01:19:13.520 --> 01:19:15.159 Uh, yeah, I'll have to listen back to that. 1187 01:19:16.119 --> 01:19:18.119 It's kind of a lot fast, and I'm not familiar 1188 01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:20.159 with a lot of those terms, so I appreciate you 1189 01:19:21.079 --> 01:19:21.279 for me. 1190 01:19:21.439 --> 01:19:23.760 Yeah. No, I mean they're great questions. I welcome those questions. 1191 01:19:24.920 --> 01:19:26.159 Cool. Thank you. 1192 01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:38.600 X X cyber shout out to fifteen hundred. Uh, this 1193 01:19:38.800 --> 01:19:41.760 is more than my usual audience, so I'm glad to 1194 01:19:41.800 --> 01:19:45.479 have fifteen hundred live. That's a little bit more than usual. 1195 01:19:45.640 --> 01:19:52.279 So the last two live streams have had more than normal. 1196 01:19:53.319 --> 01:19:58.239 You got to immune x X see why I'm mute. 1197 01:19:59.560 --> 01:20:03.600 Thank you for the mic. Well, this is my whole issue. 1198 01:20:04.359 --> 01:20:07.720 So my entire life, I identified as being a Christian, 1199 01:20:08.000 --> 01:20:10.600 and I always felt there was something off with the 1200 01:20:10.640 --> 01:20:13.279 Bible because it was written by man. I do understand 1201 01:20:13.319 --> 01:20:16.960 that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but I 1202 01:20:17.239 --> 01:20:19.680 went through a really hard time and after sitting there 1203 01:20:19.800 --> 01:20:21.439 and identifying, up till. 1204 01:20:21.279 --> 01:20:23.680 The age of thirty six, I had this. 1205 01:20:23.840 --> 01:20:27.079 Thought pop in my head, and it was, what if 1206 01:20:27.079 --> 01:20:29.439 I pray to my father God in heaven and asked 1207 01:20:29.479 --> 01:20:32.319 my father God to allow my brother to feel the 1208 01:20:32.319 --> 01:20:33.279 shame of the guilt. 1209 01:20:33.079 --> 01:20:35.159 Of allowing his pride to get the best of him. 1210 01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:38.199 And what if my brother forgave me for hating him 1211 01:20:38.199 --> 01:20:40.600 my entire life without ever getting to know him, because 1212 01:20:40.640 --> 01:20:42.720 it's all I knew, because it's all I was taught. 1213 01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:46.079 And then what if he accepted Jesus as his Lord 1214 01:20:46.119 --> 01:20:48.800 and savior aka has check in balance. 1215 01:20:48.560 --> 01:20:50.479 To ensure he could never do what he did before again? 1216 01:20:51.319 --> 01:20:54.640 And then what if he took accountability and responsibility and 1217 01:20:54.720 --> 01:20:56.720 went to his father and asked for forgiveness and his 1218 01:20:56.840 --> 01:20:57.600 father forgave him. 1219 01:20:58.199 --> 01:21:00.880 And then what if his father asked for his forgiveness? 1220 01:21:00.960 --> 01:21:03.039 Because there's no manual on how to be a perfectly 1221 01:21:03.760 --> 01:21:05.239 perfect parent, because we're. 1222 01:21:05.039 --> 01:21:06.960 All made perfectly imperfect. 1223 01:21:07.520 --> 01:21:11.119 We're all pieces of God's creation and He loves us all. 1224 01:21:11.319 --> 01:21:14.720 So in that moment, I thought, we've all talked about 1225 01:21:14.720 --> 01:21:16.960 world peace. Why can't there be world peace? 1226 01:21:22.359 --> 01:21:25.760 Was there a question in that somewhere? I'm totally lost? 1227 01:21:27.640 --> 01:21:30.119 Yeah, Why why does it say that there's no salvation 1228 01:21:30.279 --> 01:21:30.720 for Satan. 1229 01:21:32.800 --> 01:21:36.000 Wait, how what he's about world peace and forgiveness? 1230 01:21:36.079 --> 01:21:36.239 Not? What? 1231 01:21:36.520 --> 01:21:38.399 How are you at this? I don't understand. 1232 01:21:39.760 --> 01:21:43.640 Right, Well, most most religions have different views on you know, 1233 01:21:43.880 --> 01:21:47.640 Jesus and whether or not Satan can be forgiven, and 1234 01:21:47.920 --> 01:21:51.000 Christians they're hung up on Satan will never be forgiven, 1235 01:21:51.600 --> 01:21:54.840 and I don't understand how that is. 1236 01:21:57.600 --> 01:22:02.960 Well. I think the God holds humans less responsible because 1237 01:22:03.359 --> 01:22:08.880 of the exceeding gifts and higher place that the angels 1238 01:22:08.920 --> 01:22:13.359 were given. So they're a lot more accountable than Adam 1239 01:22:13.399 --> 01:22:17.159 and Eve were because of their sin. And so we 1240 01:22:17.279 --> 01:22:21.479 also believe that in the Christian view, Christ was always 1241 01:22:21.560 --> 01:22:25.000 going to become incarnate, even whether there was a fall 1242 01:22:25.119 --> 01:22:27.439 or not. The fall is not the reason who became incarnate. 1243 01:22:27.600 --> 01:22:30.760 And so one of the reasons that Satan was motivated 1244 01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:34.279 to hate mankind was out of envy, because the son 1245 01:22:34.359 --> 01:22:37.039 of God was going to raise human nature, and that 1246 01:22:37.199 --> 01:22:40.319 made the angels that rebelled with him envious that man 1247 01:22:40.399 --> 01:22:42.640 would be raised to that status. They didn't feel like 1248 01:22:43.560 --> 01:22:46.920 man should be given that. So the the envy and 1249 01:22:47.159 --> 01:22:52.920 the greater responsibility and accountability is why the demons cannot 1250 01:22:52.960 --> 01:23:00.279 be forgiven. Hello. 1251 01:23:02.079 --> 01:23:05.840 Yes, So I'm wondering if a linguistic. 1252 01:23:06.159 --> 01:23:08.800 You're what you're cutting out. 1253 01:23:08.840 --> 01:23:09.720 I'm wondering if. 1254 01:23:11.239 --> 01:23:12.359 Can you start over your cutting? 1255 01:23:14.359 --> 01:23:16.119 Is that better? Ahead? 1256 01:23:17.920 --> 01:23:23.159 I'm wondering if linguistic experts ever got together and translated 1257 01:23:23.399 --> 01:23:24.840 the original doctrines. 1258 01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:29.159 I mean, I think every translation is some group of 1259 01:23:29.279 --> 01:23:30.760 linguistic experts. So what do you mean? 1260 01:23:34.039 --> 01:23:37.039 So it's like in the Bible it says at the 1261 01:23:37.159 --> 01:23:39.640 beginning was the Word, and the word was God. 1262 01:23:40.319 --> 01:23:45.039 And that means so much more than we were loized, because. 1263 01:23:45.159 --> 01:23:51.840 Words can be either the greatest weapons or the greatest inspiration. 1264 01:23:52.880 --> 01:23:54.600 Do you do you know in the in Genesis one 1265 01:23:54.720 --> 01:23:57.479 what that Greek word is in the in the Steps? 1266 01:23:59.840 --> 01:24:00.319 I do not. 1267 01:24:01.960 --> 01:24:09.319 Yes, it is phronsia. The Greek term when God creates 1268 01:24:09.439 --> 01:24:13.000 is phronsia. And then if you go down a couple 1269 01:24:13.079 --> 01:24:17.880 more verses, you'll see uh Cabernet Sauvignon, and you'll see 1270 01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:26.720 uh sweet Valley Red to quote Steve sweet Cherry Red. 1271 01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:27.399 Did you know that? 1272 01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:33.000 I didn't do that, But I will tell you I 1273 01:24:33.640 --> 01:24:37.199 have been looking for, you know, Jesus' words in this 1274 01:24:37.720 --> 01:24:40.880 and have you been to archive dot organ like the 1275 01:24:41.359 --> 01:24:42.840 Jesus in his own words. 1276 01:24:44.560 --> 01:24:47.279 Uh, no, tell me about that, because I'm going to argue. 1277 01:24:47.439 --> 01:24:49.199 You can see where I'm going to go with this, right, 1278 01:24:49.239 --> 01:24:52.760 If Genesis one is using uh, Cabernet Sauvignon and someone 1279 01:24:52.840 --> 01:24:55.520 on blanc and Phronsia, I'm gonna automatically argue that in 1280 01:24:55.640 --> 01:24:59.000 the Book of Matthew, the actual Hebrew translation of those 1281 01:24:59.079 --> 01:25:07.039 texts is the is merlou. And I forget the barefoot 1282 01:25:07.359 --> 01:25:09.560 because that's another key brand you have to be aware of. 1283 01:25:11.720 --> 01:25:16.680 Are you aware of barefoot? Yeah? But logos in Logos 1284 01:25:16.760 --> 01:25:23.760 in Hebrew is actually Merlou. See, people don't know about 1285 01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:26.600 the Hebrew translation of Matthew. Everybody thinks, oh, Matthew is 1286 01:25:26.600 --> 01:25:28.880 written in Greek. No, no, no, no, I'm talking about 1287 01:25:28.920 --> 01:25:33.279 the original Hebrew, early Hebrew roots Jewish Christians of the 1288 01:25:33.319 --> 01:25:37.079 first century who translated correctly the Book of Matthew to 1289 01:25:37.239 --> 01:25:47.760 include Merleau and Cabernet Sauvignon vic. I forgot. Yes, that's 1290 01:25:47.800 --> 01:25:50.800 a great point, sir. Eclipse a lot Shiraz is also 1291 01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:56.159 a key a key component as well. Now some say 1292 01:25:56.319 --> 01:26:00.479 that there's variant texts that include Virginia Slims. I actually 1293 01:26:00.560 --> 01:26:04.039 think those are false. Manuscripts. Those were Gnostic additions to 1294 01:26:04.199 --> 01:26:09.159 include the Virginia Slam variant VIC. 1295 01:26:10.399 --> 01:26:11.920 Hey, just a quick question. 1296 01:26:12.159 --> 01:26:14.199 I've been reading some of Greg bond Sin's work, and 1297 01:26:14.279 --> 01:26:19.479 I was curious as to do any of his Calvinists 1298 01:26:19.760 --> 01:26:24.920 like positions or views influence his apologetic in. 1299 01:26:24.960 --> 01:26:27.159 A way that we as Orthodox should. 1300 01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:27.319 Be aware of. 1301 01:26:28.079 --> 01:26:32.560 Yes, I think the inconsistency about the notion of total depravity. 1302 01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:35.920 I had a long email back and forth back in 1303 01:26:35.960 --> 01:26:39.159 the day with John Framan about this, the idea that 1304 01:26:40.159 --> 01:26:46.000 total pravity is always affecting our noetic understanding, including after 1305 01:26:46.279 --> 01:26:49.239 we're saved, such that we could never really have a 1306 01:26:49.439 --> 01:26:53.319 certain interpretation of any text, and thus the Church could 1307 01:26:53.359 --> 01:26:59.359 never actually after the Apostles infallibly state or believe anything. 1308 01:26:59.840 --> 01:27:01.760 But the problem is that, well that's the case, then 1309 01:27:01.960 --> 01:27:04.800 what did the same thing apply to my knowledge of 1310 01:27:04.840 --> 01:27:07.239 the Trinity and my interpretation of the text or my 1311 01:27:07.640 --> 01:27:10.359 deriving the Trinity from the text. So that seems to 1312 01:27:10.399 --> 01:27:12.720 be me to be kind of an insoluble problem for 1313 01:27:13.479 --> 01:27:16.399 total depravity believing Calvinists. If you're if you believe in tag. 1314 01:27:17.560 --> 01:27:20.520 Greg Bonnson has a position kind of similar to James 1315 01:27:20.600 --> 01:27:25.600 White that he thinks that there's a plain meaning persepecuity 1316 01:27:25.640 --> 01:27:27.680 of the texts. The text just mean what they say, 1317 01:27:27.720 --> 01:27:29.600 and they say what they mean. And yet at the 1318 01:27:29.640 --> 01:27:33.199 same time he believes that you have to have a 1319 01:27:33.319 --> 01:27:38.359 holistic canonical view that harmonizes all of these things. And 1320 01:27:38.479 --> 01:27:40.279 so once again, I think that's a really problem, a 1321 01:27:40.439 --> 01:27:43.000 real deep problem for a Protestant, because, I mean, the 1322 01:27:43.279 --> 01:27:46.439 Doctor the Trinity is in scripture and the Saints believed it, 1323 01:27:46.600 --> 01:27:49.680 but it also requires a lot of these patristic terms 1324 01:27:49.720 --> 01:27:53.000 and argumentation to solidify it and to make it clear. 1325 01:27:53.520 --> 01:27:55.359 And so I think there's a there's a back, and 1326 01:27:55.479 --> 01:27:59.159 there's an inconsistency when Protestants think that the text clearly 1327 01:27:59.239 --> 01:28:02.159 teaches the Trinity, and yet they go into all this depth, 1328 01:28:02.279 --> 01:28:05.720 with all this metaphysics which the Church Fathers explicate to 1329 01:28:05.760 --> 01:28:08.520 help understand the Trinity, which are not immediately apparent in 1330 01:28:08.600 --> 01:28:12.800 the texts. So how is he how are you gonna 1331 01:28:13.239 --> 01:28:18.039 ground your epistemology in the Trinity if total depravity is 1332 01:28:18.079 --> 01:28:22.800 true and if the Trinity isn't actually explicitly taught in 1333 01:28:22.880 --> 01:28:24.920 the way that the New Testament, or excuse me, that 1334 01:28:25.039 --> 01:28:32.560 the Church fathers teaching in the Bible Bonson teaches an 1335 01:28:32.960 --> 01:28:36.760 absolute divine simplicity, which is the Augustinian view, which ultimately 1336 01:28:36.800 --> 01:28:39.159 would collapse nature in person. It would result in a 1337 01:28:39.239 --> 01:28:43.319 neoplatonic monad. And that wouldn't work to ground that your 1338 01:28:43.960 --> 01:28:48.640 knowledge because there's no essence inary distinction. Van Til said 1339 01:28:48.640 --> 01:28:52.479 the essence of God is a person, which is obviously heretical. 1340 01:28:53.600 --> 01:28:55.840 I don't know if Bonson ever rejected that or if 1341 01:28:55.880 --> 01:28:58.199 he ever talked about it, but obviously that's not true. 1342 01:28:58.600 --> 01:29:01.239 So I mean, it's funny because Van Till has the 1343 01:29:01.359 --> 01:29:04.199 right idea about making the distinction between nature and person, 1344 01:29:04.640 --> 01:29:10.720 and he was obviously confused and was grasping for monarchical trinitarianism, 1345 01:29:10.800 --> 01:29:13.119 but he didn't know about that. So what he's his 1346 01:29:13.319 --> 01:29:16.159 mistake is hitting upon what's missing, one of the things 1347 01:29:16.159 --> 01:29:21.039 that's missing, which is monarchical trinitarianism. Anyway, I mean, there's 1348 01:29:21.600 --> 01:29:24.399 you could keep going, but those are I think good. 1349 01:29:25.399 --> 01:29:27.920 You could argue too that their version of tag is 1350 01:29:31.600 --> 01:29:33.680 because it doesn't have the essence centery distinction. It would 1351 01:29:33.720 --> 01:29:37.279 be like the way William Lane Craig argues for divine conceptualism, 1352 01:29:37.319 --> 01:29:39.960 which ends up being platonism. And so if you think 1353 01:29:40.079 --> 01:29:45.119 universals are God. Now you got a problem because are 1354 01:29:45.199 --> 01:29:49.239 they divine essence is a universal the divine person? How 1355 01:29:49.359 --> 01:29:52.479 is a universal God? I mean in the Orthodox view, 1356 01:29:52.479 --> 01:29:54.880 their logi or well, the universal are creative, but they're 1357 01:29:55.000 --> 01:29:57.640 they're based on uncreated logi. So if you don't have 1358 01:29:57.680 --> 01:30:00.000 a logos, logi doctrine, I don't think you're gonna be 1359 01:30:00.039 --> 01:30:06.920 able to make it work. Beacon. Those are elements that 1360 01:30:07.000 --> 01:30:07.479 come to mind. 1361 01:30:11.600 --> 01:30:11.920 Hey, j. 1362 01:30:14.039 --> 01:30:16.520 So I have two very short questions. 1363 01:30:16.640 --> 01:30:19.119 So I'm in the Protestant apologetic The three that you 1364 01:30:19.960 --> 01:30:24.199 arguments you see get wheeled around a lot, cosmological, teleological, moral, 1365 01:30:25.399 --> 01:30:29.560 Did you cover any of those three in your debate. 1366 01:30:29.399 --> 01:30:30.039 With Trent Horn? 1367 01:30:30.319 --> 01:30:32.600 Because I'm trying to find some good resources because I've 1368 01:30:32.600 --> 01:30:35.520 heard you say that even Bertrand Russell pointed out that 1369 01:30:35.600 --> 01:30:42.359 the cosmological is a uh non sequitur makes this infinite? 1370 01:30:44.760 --> 01:30:48.000 Oh sorry, they to my apologies. Do you do you 1371 01:30:48.159 --> 01:30:51.279 have any good papers or past debates you've done refuting these. 1372 01:30:52.640 --> 01:30:52.960 Arguments. 1373 01:30:53.239 --> 01:30:57.479 Just read the doctor Gary p paper Theistic Fallacies. That's 1374 01:30:57.600 --> 01:31:00.840 got it one of the best right here, and we 1375 01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:03.800 have multiple live streams that we've done for years. If 1376 01:31:03.840 --> 01:31:10.520 you can scroll down here to critiquing papacy, critiquing the 1377 01:31:10.520 --> 01:31:17.760 classical arguments Matt Dill Hunty dire debate aquinas in classical 1378 01:31:17.960 --> 01:31:21.479 theism critiqued right here on the front page of my channel. 1379 01:31:21.479 --> 01:31:24.279 There's two This is four and a half hours on that. 1380 01:31:25.000 --> 01:31:28.359 You can go down here to my traditional metaphysics talks 1381 01:31:28.600 --> 01:31:37.359 the one, two, three, four right here, Law and natural 1382 01:31:37.399 --> 01:31:41.960 theology don't exist, God's existence, natural revelation, and logie right there, 1383 01:31:43.199 --> 01:31:46.640 those all cover that. Well, thank you for those questions, 1384 01:31:47.359 --> 01:31:51.840 but yeah, go ahead, go ahead. We just hit eighteen hundred. 1385 01:31:51.880 --> 01:31:53.479 That's crazy. Go ahead. 1386 01:31:56.840 --> 01:31:59.000 And me go ahead. I just told you I forgot 1387 01:31:59.039 --> 01:31:59.880 my own questions that. 1388 01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:01.600 Oh I thought you said I have one other question. 1389 01:32:01.760 --> 01:32:04.159 That's fine, Oh I did. I just forgot it. 1390 01:32:04.319 --> 01:32:08.520 Okay, that's fine. What's up that boy, that boy in 1391 01:32:08.600 --> 01:32:16.319 the house. I'm about the foot fart on your face? Boy? Then, 1392 01:32:16.520 --> 01:32:19.640 and I box wine that Virginia slams is giving me gas. Baby, 1393 01:32:23.279 --> 01:32:27.760 my uncreated foot had according to the classical traditional sahi 1394 01:32:27.840 --> 01:32:31.560 hadeth of foot farting. My perfect look. Isn't a foot 1395 01:32:31.600 --> 01:32:34.479 that farts more perfect than a foot that doesn't fart? 1396 01:32:34.560 --> 01:32:37.279 If your foot they didn't fart, it would like inflate 1397 01:32:37.399 --> 01:32:41.159 and pop. So a foot that farts is actually more 1398 01:32:41.279 --> 01:32:43.920 perfect according to the logic of itment. 1399 01:32:43.720 --> 01:32:49.680 To me, what's up that boy, Hello, Pastor Randy. 1400 01:32:50.399 --> 01:32:54.000 I'm great. By the way, it doesn't an uncreated farting 1401 01:32:54.079 --> 01:32:55.439 foot fart perfectly. 1402 01:32:56.439 --> 01:32:58.840 H Yeah, I was just gonna say, my foot does 1403 01:32:58.920 --> 01:32:59.439 not fart. 1404 01:33:00.159 --> 01:33:02.720 Wish it did, because it looks like I have elephantitus 1405 01:33:02.880 --> 01:33:04.840 of the Achilles heel. 1406 01:33:04.640 --> 01:33:05.079 At the moment. 1407 01:33:05.239 --> 01:33:07.560 So that's gallop, buddy, that's you've got some gollop over there. 1408 01:33:08.159 --> 01:33:09.000 Okay, thank you. 1409 01:33:10.039 --> 01:33:11.640 If you put your hands on the screen, I can 1410 01:33:11.720 --> 01:33:12.359 heal your gallop. 1411 01:33:13.119 --> 01:33:15.279 Oh okay, I'm actually putting my foot on it. 1412 01:33:15.640 --> 01:33:21.239 Oh it's getting dirty up in here. Hey, go ahead. 1413 01:33:21.479 --> 01:33:26.039 So my wife and I recently became catechumen in the church, 1414 01:33:27.039 --> 01:33:31.399 and one thing that's come up for us is the 1415 01:33:32.520 --> 01:33:35.720 not just the veneration of the Cross, but the worshiping 1416 01:33:36.279 --> 01:33:40.680 of the cross and praying to the cross. And it 1417 01:33:40.840 --> 01:33:44.479 seems I guess it's probably maybe obvious why that would 1418 01:33:44.520 --> 01:33:46.239 be weird for a Protestant. 1419 01:33:46.359 --> 01:33:47.479 To see that. 1420 01:33:47.760 --> 01:33:51.439 And you know, I understand praying to saints, venerating saints 1421 01:33:52.640 --> 01:33:54.479 worshiping through the icon of Christ. 1422 01:33:55.359 --> 01:33:57.960 But what's up with this worshiping the cross? 1423 01:33:58.640 --> 01:34:03.479 Well, again, worship is veneration. It's not the same worship 1424 01:34:03.560 --> 01:34:06.039 that's given to the uncreated. So we honor the cross 1425 01:34:06.119 --> 01:34:09.479 because it's the instrument of our salvation. Uh, it's the 1426 01:34:09.800 --> 01:34:13.199 and so as John Damascus says, the honor given to 1427 01:34:13.600 --> 01:34:16.880 the type passes to the prototype. So we're honoring Christ 1428 01:34:16.960 --> 01:34:19.399 by honoring the cross. It's not that we worship a 1429 01:34:19.439 --> 01:34:20.039 piece of wood. 1430 01:34:21.720 --> 01:34:22.000 Okay. 1431 01:34:22.159 --> 01:34:26.800 So I guess why is why is their prayers to 1432 01:34:27.359 --> 01:34:30.520 the to the cross if the cross is not sentient 1433 01:34:31.159 --> 01:34:32.119 you know, I mean it's a cross. 1434 01:34:32.119 --> 01:34:33.720 I mean at the end, it's it's still a cross. 1435 01:34:33.760 --> 01:34:37.760 Like well, I mean there's like there's there's adulation to 1436 01:34:38.039 --> 01:34:40.800 this instrument. I don't know that anyone's asking the cross 1437 01:34:40.920 --> 01:34:43.199 to do things like it's personal. But if there is 1438 01:34:43.239 --> 01:34:45.920 a statement like that, the assumption is that the one 1439 01:34:45.960 --> 01:34:48.279 who died on the cross is it's that it's passing 1440 01:34:48.359 --> 01:34:49.159 to the prototype. 1441 01:34:50.079 --> 01:34:50.359 Okay. 1442 01:34:50.479 --> 01:34:53.600 So when when worship or prayer is done toward the cross, 1443 01:34:53.760 --> 01:34:56.479 it's being pointed towards Christ. 1444 01:34:56.399 --> 01:34:59.359 Not yes, not the cross itself. And no one thinks 1445 01:34:59.439 --> 01:35:01.680 that piece of wood in itself does anything. 1446 01:35:01.800 --> 01:35:02.199 But the. 1447 01:35:04.239 --> 01:35:06.760 Form of the cross is what burns the demons, because 1448 01:35:06.800 --> 01:35:08.119 it's the instrument of our salvation. 1449 01:35:08.640 --> 01:35:12.479 So the let God Arise prayer to the Holy Cross. 1450 01:35:14.600 --> 01:35:19.199 It's the prayer speaks to the cross and then makes 1451 01:35:19.239 --> 01:35:22.880 the distinction between the Cross and Christ. I don't have 1452 01:35:22.960 --> 01:35:24.840 it pulled up in front of me, but it's I mean, 1453 01:35:24.880 --> 01:35:27.319 it's pretty simple to find it. Like the first thing 1454 01:35:27.359 --> 01:35:31.800 that pulls up and you type in let God arise, I. 1455 01:35:31.880 --> 01:35:36.520 Mean it's so. Let God arise, and let his enemies 1456 01:35:36.560 --> 01:35:38.319 be scattered. Let those who hate him flee from his 1457 01:35:38.399 --> 01:35:41.079 face a smoke vanishes. Let them vanish as wax melts 1458 01:35:41.079 --> 01:35:43.079 from the presidents of fire. So let the demons pairs 1459 01:35:43.079 --> 01:35:45.079 from the presidents of those who love God and who 1460 01:35:45.119 --> 01:35:46.840 signed themselves with a sign of the cross, and say, 1461 01:35:46.920 --> 01:35:49.960 with gladness Hell, most precious life, giving cross to the Lord. 1462 01:35:50.560 --> 01:35:52.560 You drive away the demons by the power of the Lord. 1463 01:35:52.640 --> 01:35:54.720 So it's not the wood that's doing it. It's the 1464 01:35:55.119 --> 01:35:57.520 power of the Lord through the Cross that does it. 1465 01:35:57.960 --> 01:36:00.760 For it was Christ. It was cruticified on ye, and 1466 01:36:00.880 --> 01:36:03.039 you went down into hell and trampled on the power 1467 01:36:03.079 --> 01:36:06.039 of the devil his honorable Cross for driving away the enemies. 1468 01:36:06.159 --> 01:36:09.560 So you understand that we believe that created things can 1469 01:36:09.600 --> 01:36:12.760 be endued with this power via the divine energies. This 1470 01:36:12.880 --> 01:36:15.600 is the whole idea behind icons and why icons are holy. 1471 01:36:15.920 --> 01:36:19.000 It's not because they're just because they're creatures. It's because 1472 01:36:19.000 --> 01:36:21.079 they're creatures who have been endude with this power via 1473 01:36:21.119 --> 01:36:22.159 the uncreated energies. 1474 01:36:23.439 --> 01:36:25.720 Okay, so I guess it. 1475 01:36:25.960 --> 01:36:28.159 It would be fair to say it's a poetic or 1476 01:36:28.520 --> 01:36:31.640 you know, some sort of poetic language to speak to 1477 01:36:31.720 --> 01:36:35.159 the Cross, but like in the spiritual. 1478 01:36:34.720 --> 01:36:37.159 Reality, Yeah, I mean it's poetic language you you drive 1479 01:36:37.239 --> 01:36:40.479 away the power of the demons speaking to it, but 1480 01:36:41.039 --> 01:36:42.000 it literally does that. 1481 01:36:44.039 --> 01:36:48.520 Yeah, yeah, okay, cool, Yeah, that's a I think that's 1482 01:36:48.520 --> 01:36:48.960 all I get. 1483 01:36:49.960 --> 01:36:53.119 That's okay, that's a good question. I've actually I've actually 1484 01:36:53.159 --> 01:36:57.399 never had that question. So that was an interesting question. Dallas, 1485 01:36:57.439 --> 01:37:03.359 what's up, dude, Globe? 1486 01:37:03.960 --> 01:37:08.680 Yep, Yeah, I would just argue that the Virginia Slim 1487 01:37:09.039 --> 01:37:10.119 variant should be there. 1488 01:37:10.920 --> 01:37:12.760 Okay. I mean, you're gonna have to give me at 1489 01:37:12.880 --> 01:37:16.239 least two or three wine moms that have actually within 1490 01:37:16.319 --> 01:37:18.079 the history of the church back that up. I'm not 1491 01:37:18.159 --> 01:37:21.039 going to just accept your arbitrary accusation that the Virginia 1492 01:37:21.079 --> 01:37:23.920 Slam variant is valid unless you give me proof of that. 1493 01:37:24.439 --> 01:37:26.800 Name three wine name three wine moms that prove that. 1494 01:37:28.199 --> 01:37:30.560 Well, think Bud the Wise are actually quoted it. 1495 01:37:30.640 --> 01:37:31.920 Okay, that's one. That's one. 1496 01:37:32.920 --> 01:37:34.199 And if you actually look in. 1497 01:37:34.199 --> 01:37:36.399 The verse before, we also have the variant reading of 1498 01:37:36.640 --> 01:37:38.319 Paul maul menthol. 1499 01:37:39.199 --> 01:37:42.000 And actually, okay, I mean that's contested, but I'll grant 1500 01:37:42.000 --> 01:37:43.520 you that's only two. Dude, I give you. I said 1501 01:37:43.560 --> 01:37:49.119 give me three exactly exactly. You can't do it. You 1502 01:37:49.119 --> 01:37:53.880 can't do it exactly. I mean, you understand the sonoticon 1503 01:37:55.279 --> 01:38:00.439 excommunicates you for that, right, you understand that. Yeah, I'm 1504 01:38:01.319 --> 01:38:04.199 nation exactly. So again, the whole chat is laughing at you. 1505 01:38:04.399 --> 01:38:08.960 You just got refuted, You just got burnt. What's up, man, 1506 01:38:09.119 --> 01:38:09.520 what's up? 1507 01:38:10.119 --> 01:38:12.000 I don't I don't have an organ I just can't 1508 01:38:12.039 --> 01:38:14.600 believe some of the questions. 1509 01:38:14.319 --> 01:38:15.359 People as well. 1510 01:38:15.359 --> 01:38:15.640 You know what? 1511 01:38:15.760 --> 01:38:20.600 That makes it a fruitful cornucopia of a wide Look, 1512 01:38:20.920 --> 01:38:24.720 as Francis says, God wills the various religious expressions of 1513 01:38:24.800 --> 01:38:27.960 all of the wine moms, all of the dostic, ancient aliens, 1514 01:38:28.039 --> 01:38:30.479 all of the slam poetry people, God wills, all of that. 1515 01:38:30.600 --> 01:38:33.239 Did you not listen to Francis? It's part of the 1516 01:38:33.319 --> 01:38:34.520 diversity of the human experience. 1517 01:38:34.600 --> 01:38:38.520 Bro Listen if I listened to Francis being haled tonight. 1518 01:38:39.159 --> 01:38:40.479 Well just put it that way. 1519 01:38:40.720 --> 01:38:45.239 Look, the question really is which are the fart hadiths 1520 01:38:45.359 --> 01:38:47.359 that we're supposed to follow? I mean, my foot's been 1521 01:38:47.399 --> 01:38:50.000 fart and since the beginning of this live stream is 1522 01:38:50.079 --> 01:38:52.640 that sahi? Do I need to do an ablution? 1523 01:38:53.760 --> 01:38:54.279 Is it? What? 1524 01:38:54.640 --> 01:38:55.680 Was it a perfect fart? 1525 01:38:55.760 --> 01:38:56.079 Do we know? 1526 01:38:57.399 --> 01:38:59.800 Was it in prayer? Because then you have to total 1527 01:39:00.039 --> 01:39:00.399 he again? 1528 01:39:00.520 --> 01:39:02.720 Right, that's what I'm saying. Does the stream have to 1529 01:39:02.760 --> 01:39:05.840 start all over? We gotta start all over. I just 1530 01:39:06.039 --> 01:39:08.800 dirtied the stream by my foot fart and against this 1531 01:39:09.079 --> 01:39:12.720 sweaty ass chair. So you didn't have a question. You 1532 01:39:12.840 --> 01:39:15.600 just try to argue with me over the Virginia slim variant. Well, look, man, 1533 01:39:16.319 --> 01:39:19.039 you gave two arguments and not a third. So you're 1534 01:39:19.439 --> 01:39:27.119 you're refuted, You're defeated. Context Saint Fransia is one of 1535 01:39:27.159 --> 01:39:31.199 the most famous Latin saints of the early Renaissance period. 1536 01:39:32.600 --> 01:39:35.039 She does have a lot of key argumentation. She's got 1537 01:39:35.079 --> 01:39:38.920 a lot of wise things to say, but look, I 1538 01:39:39.079 --> 01:39:45.640 just can't accept that she's a saint. I'm sorry, context, 1539 01:39:45.680 --> 01:39:51.000 what's up again on you? What's it's called? She's called 1540 01:39:51.720 --> 01:39:52.960 Saint Fransia the Woozy. 1541 01:39:56.039 --> 01:39:58.760 I have a question about orthodox. 1542 01:39:58.600 --> 01:40:02.239 Okay, brother? What does your question? Yeah? 1543 01:40:02.279 --> 01:40:05.560 Why there's so many gropers in Orthodoxy online? 1544 01:40:07.439 --> 01:40:10.159 There's not. The gropers are almost always trad cats. What 1545 01:40:10.159 --> 01:40:10.680 do you mean. 1546 01:40:12.720 --> 01:40:15.199 Now? I see a lot of jew hating gropers in 1547 01:40:15.319 --> 01:40:16.159 the authosphere. 1548 01:40:17.000 --> 01:40:19.000 Well, I mean that's the minority. So I don't know 1549 01:40:19.079 --> 01:40:21.800 what you're talking about. I mean, literally, they're all tradecats. 1550 01:40:21.840 --> 01:40:22.560 What are you talking about? 1551 01:40:24.359 --> 01:40:28.720 Go check an account called Conscious Philosopher one hundred k followers. 1552 01:40:29.079 --> 01:40:30.119 It's not a small account. 1553 01:40:30.119 --> 01:40:31.920 I mean, I'm not. Okay, So there's one. I mean, 1554 01:40:32.039 --> 01:40:33.680 but what about it? Do you have an argument? What's 1555 01:40:33.720 --> 01:40:36.840 your argument? Yeah? 1556 01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:41.239 Well, my argument is that it seems like Orthodoxy is 1557 01:40:41.239 --> 01:40:43.359 a gateway into anti Semitism. 1558 01:40:43.520 --> 01:40:47.159 Oh sure, And what's your worldview. 1559 01:40:48.640 --> 01:40:49.039 Christian? 1560 01:40:49.800 --> 01:40:50.680 What kind of Christian? 1561 01:40:51.960 --> 01:40:52.960 Non denominational? 1562 01:40:53.159 --> 01:40:55.199 Uh huh? And why so we're supposed to believe in 1563 01:40:55.239 --> 01:41:02.920 no denominational Christianity. So you're a social justice for you. No, 1564 01:41:03.199 --> 01:41:22.680 not really, get out here, magic, Mike, what. 1565 01:41:24.199 --> 01:41:24.880 How are you doing? 1566 01:41:26.479 --> 01:41:30.119 My foot's farting NonStop? And I need to start the 1567 01:41:30.239 --> 01:41:33.439 stream over why I in no way? 1568 01:41:33.479 --> 01:41:35.600 So I wanted to talk a little bit about the 1569 01:41:36.000 --> 01:41:38.319 Old Testament and the Trinity. I mean, I've heard you 1570 01:41:38.399 --> 01:41:42.680 say that there's trinity in the Old Testament and Abraham 1571 01:41:42.760 --> 01:41:46.399 believed that that God was a trying God. But I mean, 1572 01:41:46.720 --> 01:41:49.840 how do you justify any of that because, like, for example, 1573 01:41:49.880 --> 01:41:52.039 when he goes to the Old Testament, right, you see 1574 01:41:52.199 --> 01:41:54.760 God saying that, you know, if there's a prophet coming 1575 01:41:54.800 --> 01:41:58.239 along saying that you should worship, for example, a different God, 1576 01:41:58.319 --> 01:42:00.880 you have to stone that stuff less profit, you know. 1577 01:42:01.479 --> 01:42:04.159 Hold on, before you start spitting out these verses. Have 1578 01:42:04.319 --> 01:42:06.920 you watched my three hour livestream going through all the 1579 01:42:07.039 --> 01:42:08.359 verses on the trinity in the Torah? 1580 01:42:09.960 --> 01:42:11.039 Okay? 1581 01:42:11.279 --> 01:42:13.239 Have you read any Have you read any of the 1582 01:42:13.319 --> 01:42:17.800 Jewish scholars nowadays like Sommer Barn and others that admit 1583 01:42:18.359 --> 01:42:24.119 that there's difference in persons in God in the Old Testament? Okay, fine, 1584 01:42:24.359 --> 01:42:27.159 and hold on. I asked you a question, are you 1585 01:42:27.159 --> 01:42:27.520 aware of it? 1586 01:42:27.720 --> 01:42:28.119 I haven't. 1587 01:42:28.159 --> 01:42:30.359 Okay, are you aware of the basic text where we 1588 01:42:30.439 --> 01:42:31.560 make these arguments. 1589 01:42:31.239 --> 01:42:35.239 From a little bit of familiarity. 1590 01:42:35.680 --> 01:42:37.800 I think, okay, so like, what's what's one or two 1591 01:42:37.800 --> 01:42:39.119 of the what's one of the two of the verses 1592 01:42:39.159 --> 01:42:39.640 that we go to. 1593 01:42:40.680 --> 01:42:45.159 I think Angel of the Lord Exodus three, that's one. Yeah, yeah, 1594 01:42:45.319 --> 01:42:47.359 so there. I mean, I can't think of on top 1595 01:42:47.399 --> 01:42:49.159 of my head, but I do know, okay, that you 1596 01:42:49.359 --> 01:42:51.479 talk about a few. So for example, I mean, okay, 1597 01:42:51.600 --> 01:42:53.840 you can, let's say that there is a little bit 1598 01:42:53.880 --> 01:42:57.920 of multiplicity within the God had the Old Testament, But 1599 01:42:58.000 --> 01:43:00.000 how do you derive I mean, that's not doesn't happen 1600 01:43:00.000 --> 01:43:01.479 to be the Trinity explicitly? 1601 01:43:01.760 --> 01:43:05.159 Okay, throughout the Old Testament there's only three that are mentioned. 1602 01:43:05.680 --> 01:43:10.359 There's the Yahweh, his Angel, Covenant, Messenger, and Spirit. Those 1603 01:43:10.399 --> 01:43:12.640 three are mentioned. So how many how many more would 1604 01:43:12.680 --> 01:43:12.880 there be? 1605 01:43:13.920 --> 01:43:16.760 So for okay, sure you can say that there's three. 1606 01:43:16.800 --> 01:43:17.840 Why is the spirit? 1607 01:43:17.960 --> 01:43:19.560 Well no, wait a minute, you just said why would 1608 01:43:19.560 --> 01:43:21.119 you just said why would hold on? You just said 1609 01:43:21.119 --> 01:43:22.880 why would it be trinity? And now you're saying, okay, 1610 01:43:22.920 --> 01:43:25.560 there's three, So exactly. 1611 01:43:25.399 --> 01:43:27.439 I can see I see your point that you know 1612 01:43:27.600 --> 01:43:30.439 that only three are mentioned I get that, But for example, 1613 01:43:30.479 --> 01:43:33.960 why does the spirit of God has to be interpreted 1614 01:43:34.079 --> 01:43:35.720 as a separate person instead of. 1615 01:43:35.800 --> 01:43:39.359 Just because he's spoken of as he. He's spoken of 1616 01:43:39.479 --> 01:43:40.760 as a he who does things. 1617 01:43:42.960 --> 01:43:45.439 So why wouldn't the spirit of God, for example, just 1618 01:43:45.560 --> 01:43:47.880 be like God the Father? You know, just one? 1619 01:43:47.960 --> 01:43:49.680 Why do you have to make it because of what 1620 01:43:49.880 --> 01:43:51.560 I just did? You not hear what I just said? 1621 01:43:53.399 --> 01:43:54.479 Your boys could offer. 1622 01:43:55.880 --> 01:43:59.119 It's he has spoken of as a he, a person 1623 01:43:59.239 --> 01:44:02.000 a subject to do or an actor who does things? 1624 01:44:02.359 --> 01:44:03.279 Who is not the Father? 1625 01:44:06.119 --> 01:44:06.359 Can he? 1626 01:44:06.439 --> 01:44:08.439 Can he give an example in the Bible or in 1627 01:44:08.520 --> 01:44:09.640 the Old Testament. 1628 01:44:12.239 --> 01:44:34.279 This, let's see, I'm pulling up the text. So just 1629 01:44:34.359 --> 01:44:40.560 one second. So Moses went out and told the people 1630 01:44:40.640 --> 01:44:42.479 the words of the Lord. And he gathered seventy men, 1631 01:44:42.880 --> 01:44:44.840 men of the elders and of the people, and placed 1632 01:44:44.880 --> 01:44:47.560 them around the tabernacle. And the Lord came down in 1633 01:44:47.720 --> 01:44:50.680 the cloud and spoke to him and took of the 1634 01:44:50.800 --> 01:44:53.560 spirit that was upon him and placed that same spirit 1635 01:44:53.760 --> 01:44:55.720 upon the elders. And then if you read the rest 1636 01:44:55.760 --> 01:44:57.159 of the text, it goes on to talk about it 1637 01:44:57.279 --> 01:44:59.840 being the spirit of the Lord. The Lord would put 1638 01:45:00.079 --> 01:45:02.760 his spirit on them. The reason it can't be the Father. 1639 01:45:03.000 --> 01:45:05.680 Is that the Father is not in time and space 1640 01:45:06.199 --> 01:45:09.319 in the sense of being incarnate or manifesting. No one 1641 01:45:09.399 --> 01:45:11.600 has seen the Father at any time according to Jesus 1642 01:45:11.640 --> 01:45:15.119 in John five. There's no image, there's no manifestation of 1643 01:45:15.199 --> 01:45:18.079 the of the Father in this way. And so the 1644 01:45:18.399 --> 01:45:22.319 Lord that came down is putting this spirit upon them. 1645 01:45:22.680 --> 01:45:24.920 So it has to be a third It cannot be 1646 01:45:25.079 --> 01:45:28.399 someone else. It's not the Father in this passage. Now 1647 01:45:28.600 --> 01:45:35.720 there's about hold on to say one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, 1648 01:45:35.720 --> 01:45:38.359 sixty seven, eighteen, nine, twenty. I've got and this is 1649 01:45:38.439 --> 01:45:40.600 not all of them, but I've got twenty two passages 1650 01:45:41.920 --> 01:45:44.920 of the Holy Spirit's actions and work in the Old Testament. 1651 01:45:44.960 --> 01:45:46.239 So we can go through as many of these as 1652 01:45:46.319 --> 01:45:48.159 you want. I can keep going. We go to Psalm 1653 01:45:49.680 --> 01:45:53.359 one O three, I think, and what we notice from 1654 01:45:53.479 --> 01:45:55.760 all of these passages, we can't just we don't just 1655 01:45:55.800 --> 01:45:58.359 take one passage and say, well, that could be the Father. 1656 01:45:59.079 --> 01:46:01.760 I mean, it's all he's spoken of as this differentiation, 1657 01:46:01.920 --> 01:46:06.800 and he's spoken of as having a personal relationship, and 1658 01:46:06.960 --> 01:46:10.520 that he does certain unique things do you want do 1659 01:46:10.520 --> 01:46:11.920 you want to keep going through the passages? 1660 01:46:12.840 --> 01:46:12.880 No? 1661 01:46:13.199 --> 01:46:15.479 I get that point. S For the only reason I 1662 01:46:15.680 --> 01:46:18.640 was making that argument is because, for example, I wouldn't 1663 01:46:18.720 --> 01:46:22.239 say that the spirit of Jay is something that's separate 1664 01:46:22.359 --> 01:46:24.439 from from from you. It's like a second person. 1665 01:46:25.960 --> 01:46:29.039 That's a false analogy because I'm a single person, and 1666 01:46:29.880 --> 01:46:33.159 my soul or spirit would be aspects of my person 1667 01:46:33.319 --> 01:46:35.560 that would be parts of me. The Holy Spirit is 1668 01:46:35.640 --> 01:46:37.840 not a part. God doesn't have parts. He's not composed 1669 01:46:37.920 --> 01:46:41.439 or put together. He always was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 1670 01:46:41.520 --> 01:46:44.199 So it's an eternal triad. So that's that's why it's 1671 01:46:44.199 --> 01:46:45.600 a false analogy to a creature. 1672 01:46:47.840 --> 01:46:49.920 So is it possible for God to be that? To 1673 01:46:50.560 --> 01:46:54.359 be a minitarian god or be a quaternity? Is that 1674 01:46:54.439 --> 01:46:55.960 possible or is it always? 1675 01:46:56.439 --> 01:46:58.319 Well, you just admitted a minute ago that it's three 1676 01:46:58.399 --> 01:46:59.680 in the Old Testament, So how would it be a 1677 01:46:59.760 --> 01:47:01.359 quatternity if you admitted those three? 1678 01:47:02.199 --> 01:47:04.319 Like I'm just like, I'm asking, like, why does God 1679 01:47:04.439 --> 01:47:06.159 have to be a triune god? 1680 01:47:06.399 --> 01:47:08.560 Because he's revealed himself to be that way. That's wine 1681 01:47:08.880 --> 01:47:10.359 It's that's what his revelation is. 1682 01:47:11.520 --> 01:47:13.720 Okay, Okay, I'll get your point. So what about the 1683 01:47:13.760 --> 01:47:17.079 Old Testament? For example, when the Muslims say, you know, 1684 01:47:17.119 --> 01:47:20.239 the Bible is corrupted, right, And then even when I've 1685 01:47:20.359 --> 01:47:23.880 taken some Bible courses at a university and even the 1686 01:47:23.920 --> 01:47:28.000 professors are talking about how the Old Testament and even 1687 01:47:28.039 --> 01:47:31.119 the Torah it's put together by Jewish rabbis and they 1688 01:47:31.159 --> 01:47:33.640 have edited some stuff out, or you don't. 1689 01:47:33.640 --> 01:47:36.000 Well, those are that's all assertions. So by the way, 1690 01:47:36.079 --> 01:47:40.159 Psalm one four in the Mesoretic text, you sent forth 1691 01:47:40.239 --> 01:47:42.640 your Holy Spirit and they are created. You renew the 1692 01:47:42.680 --> 01:47:44.479 face of the earth. So here the Holy Spirit is 1693 01:47:44.520 --> 01:47:50.079 being called a creator. So if the Father and the 1694 01:47:50.199 --> 01:47:52.479 Son send forth the Spirit and the spirit's creating, then 1695 01:47:52.520 --> 01:47:55.880 the spirit is divine. Now that there's I mean, we 1696 01:47:55.960 --> 01:47:59.359 can keep going. There's like plenty more examples. There's like 1697 01:47:59.439 --> 01:47:59.880 twenty more. 1698 01:48:01.560 --> 01:48:03.279 Yeah, I know, I get that. I was talking about 1699 01:48:03.359 --> 01:48:05.079 the Old Testament, for example. 1700 01:48:04.800 --> 01:48:06.680 And I'm reading the Psalms. You don't think the Psalms 1701 01:48:06.680 --> 01:48:07.399 are the Old Testament? 1702 01:48:08.279 --> 01:48:08.439 Yeah? 1703 01:48:08.479 --> 01:48:11.039 Yeah, it's the Old Testament. Both Torah for example. Do 1704 01:48:11.079 --> 01:48:14.000 you think it's a bit edited by Jews, Jewish scribes 1705 01:48:14.079 --> 01:48:19.119 and the priests. No, it's so who's the author of. 1706 01:48:19.119 --> 01:48:25.560 Torah Moses and Joshua, so they both are the author. 1707 01:48:25.680 --> 01:48:28.239 There's so that you don't think that there's like there's 1708 01:48:28.319 --> 01:48:30.680 no part of the Old Testament that's edited out. It's 1709 01:48:30.840 --> 01:48:32.960 just written perfectly on what they. 1710 01:48:33.239 --> 01:48:35.960 So what's the basis to believe that those are just assertions? 1711 01:48:37.439 --> 01:48:39.640 Well, I'm just going off of by what the let's 1712 01:48:39.640 --> 01:48:39.880 say this. 1713 01:48:40.279 --> 01:48:42.439 My Bible scholars is saying, what the okay? 1714 01:48:42.439 --> 01:48:45.359 Again, those are assertions? So do you want me to 1715 01:48:45.439 --> 01:48:48.319 cite you conservative scholars that don't agree? What is that? 1716 01:48:48.399 --> 01:48:48.720 What does that? 1717 01:48:49.760 --> 01:48:49.960 Yeah? 1718 01:48:50.000 --> 01:48:52.199 Can you name some books too on the Old Testament 1719 01:48:52.279 --> 01:48:56.640 reliability where you have Moses as the author, and you know, uh, 1720 01:48:57.359 --> 01:48:59.920 each book having its own author. And for example, even 1721 01:49:00.319 --> 01:49:02.640 I have an Orthodox Study Bible, right some of the 1722 01:49:02.680 --> 01:49:04.960 authors are unknown. You don't even know who kind of 1723 01:49:05.039 --> 01:49:07.880 like put it together. I think some of the introductions 1724 01:49:07.920 --> 01:49:09.520 for the Orthodox Study I don't have it with you 1725 01:49:09.640 --> 01:49:11.239 right now because I'm on in the car, but it 1726 01:49:11.279 --> 01:49:13.159 says that it was kind of like compiled together by 1727 01:49:13.239 --> 01:49:16.720 Jewish scribes or priests and the authors. 1728 01:49:16.439 --> 01:49:17.119 Kind of unknown. 1729 01:49:17.600 --> 01:49:19.399 I think you can some of the books are also 1730 01:49:19.520 --> 01:49:24.680 the Wisdom books that says that the authors are most like, 1731 01:49:24.800 --> 01:49:26.920 where's the reliability of any of this? 1732 01:49:27.680 --> 01:49:30.239 Well, I mean it's reliable because it's the tradition of 1733 01:49:30.279 --> 01:49:32.319 the Church. You can't separate the tradition of the Church 1734 01:49:32.399 --> 01:49:34.720 from the authorship of the text. And what we I mean, 1735 01:49:34.960 --> 01:49:37.680 the Matthew doesn't tell you that it's Matthew the disciple 1736 01:49:37.720 --> 01:49:39.880 of Jesus. It's the tradition of the church that says that. 1737 01:49:40.479 --> 01:49:43.239 So bound up with the text is the pre supposition 1738 01:49:43.319 --> 01:49:45.039 of the church. So no, you're not going to like 1739 01:49:45.600 --> 01:49:49.079 just go to texts and like figure out the religion 1740 01:49:49.520 --> 01:49:54.159 per se just from tax alone. You can't. You can't 1741 01:49:54.159 --> 01:49:57.560 divorce the text from the community which has passed these 1742 01:49:57.640 --> 01:49:57.960 texts on. 1743 01:49:58.800 --> 01:50:01.079 Yeah, but the community is thing that they don't even know. 1744 01:50:01.159 --> 01:50:03.239 The author, And no, it's not that's not the no 1745 01:50:03.439 --> 01:50:06.800 you're citing. First of all, knowing the author is not 1746 01:50:07.039 --> 01:50:09.359 necessary for us to say whether it's part of our 1747 01:50:09.399 --> 01:50:13.279 tradition or not. I mean, the text cite extra canonical 1748 01:50:13.319 --> 01:50:14.680 books with true tradition. 1749 01:50:14.520 --> 01:50:19.079 Like the Book of Enoch, so the yah, yeah, it 1750 01:50:19.159 --> 01:50:22.039 doesn't cite those books as scripture. But for example, if 1751 01:50:22.079 --> 01:50:24.720 you have a book that's considered divine from God right 1752 01:50:24.760 --> 01:50:27.720 at least you should know who's bringing that message about 1753 01:50:27.800 --> 01:50:30.720 who's the author, who's writing it down, Like, for example, was. 1754 01:50:30.720 --> 01:50:31.359 It a prophet? 1755 01:50:31.399 --> 01:50:31.960 Who it was? 1756 01:50:32.840 --> 01:50:32.880 No? 1757 01:50:33.039 --> 01:50:33.479 It doesn't. 1758 01:50:33.840 --> 01:50:37.000 No, So you're talking about wisdom text like cyric or 1759 01:50:37.039 --> 01:50:40.319 something like that. They don't have to be necessarily from 1760 01:50:40.600 --> 01:50:45.000 any specific person to be commonly used wisdom text amongst 1761 01:50:45.039 --> 01:50:46.880 the Jews, like the pi k a vote, which is 1762 01:50:46.920 --> 01:50:50.279 a it's just like proverbs, but it's a later collection 1763 01:50:50.439 --> 01:50:53.119 of proverbs. We don't have to know necessarily who wrote 1764 01:50:53.159 --> 01:50:55.399 every proverb to know whether it's true or whether it's 1765 01:50:56.079 --> 01:50:57.960 part of tradition or not. Why would we have to 1766 01:50:58.039 --> 01:50:58.239 know that? 1767 01:50:59.199 --> 01:51:01.319 So, I mean, how with that book to considered that's 1768 01:51:01.359 --> 01:51:04.520 it inspired without you citing your like saying that, oh yeah, 1769 01:51:04.520 --> 01:51:07.640 that the church, you know, your tradition Orthodox Church accepted that. 1770 01:51:07.920 --> 01:51:10.439 Well, but I don't know. I don't say you can 1771 01:51:10.520 --> 01:51:13.399 divorce inspiration from the from the Church. You can't. That's 1772 01:51:13.479 --> 01:51:16.039 my point. So you're approaching this like a Protestant or 1773 01:51:16.079 --> 01:51:18.479 like a like a Muslim. That's not how we view 1774 01:51:18.520 --> 01:51:21.199 the text and divine revelation. We're not book worshipers. 1775 01:51:22.479 --> 01:51:24.439 Okay, I get that, But what's let's say what is 1776 01:51:24.479 --> 01:51:27.560 the justification in the Orthodox Church for accepting a book 1777 01:51:27.640 --> 01:51:28.720 without knowing its author. 1778 01:51:30.079 --> 01:51:33.680 There's no reason why something like the Proverbs you mentioned 1779 01:51:33.720 --> 01:51:37.039 an example of wisdom texts that we have to know 1780 01:51:37.159 --> 01:51:39.159 the author of the Proverbs to know that those are 1781 01:51:39.279 --> 01:51:43.600 true proverbs or that they have a historical attestation amongst 1782 01:51:43.640 --> 01:51:44.399 Jewish communities. 1783 01:51:46.319 --> 01:51:48.880 No, what I'm trying to get at is like, what 1784 01:51:49.079 --> 01:51:51.319 is the mechanism for example, Like you know you have 1785 01:51:51.399 --> 01:51:53.399 a certain book, right, let's look at. 1786 01:51:53.960 --> 01:51:57.399 The mechanism is tradition. There's no academic mechanism. 1787 01:51:57.520 --> 01:52:00.800 That's my point, Like, what's the crisis because. 1788 01:52:00.760 --> 01:52:02.720 The tradition of the church is the criteria. That's what 1789 01:52:02.720 --> 01:52:03.319 I'm trying to tell you. 1790 01:52:06.000 --> 01:52:07.760 I don't know, because the thing is that in the 1791 01:52:07.880 --> 01:52:10.359 in the New Testament, right, they have certain criterias that. 1792 01:52:10.399 --> 01:52:11.960 Are laid out like again noa, NOA. 1793 01:52:11.840 --> 01:52:16.159 Doesn't Yeah, I mean that's what the canon or like 1794 01:52:16.279 --> 01:52:17.640 it has to know. 1795 01:52:17.880 --> 01:52:19.800 The New Testament doesn't give you a canon. It's only 1796 01:52:19.840 --> 01:52:22.000 from the tradition of the Church. You're just asserting all 1797 01:52:22.039 --> 01:52:23.439 the church, even from. 1798 01:52:23.359 --> 01:52:25.640 The tradition of the church, right, like the Church Fathers 1799 01:52:25.680 --> 01:52:27.760 for example. That's what I learned in my class that 1800 01:52:28.119 --> 01:52:29.920 there was at least a little bit of a criteria 1801 01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:31.840 for a book to be accepted as scripture. 1802 01:52:31.880 --> 01:52:33.840 For example, it happen, and do you know it, Okay, 1803 01:52:34.000 --> 01:52:35.439 do you know any of those criteria? 1804 01:52:36.760 --> 01:52:38.640 I know, I know, I don't know like every single 1805 01:52:38.720 --> 01:52:40.000 one of them. But it had to go back to 1806 01:52:40.039 --> 01:52:43.479 the apostles or their associates, and then for example, it 1807 01:52:43.560 --> 01:52:46.079 had to like match up to what you know, they 1808 01:52:46.159 --> 01:52:47.000 already believed. 1809 01:52:47.239 --> 01:52:49.319 So there was a little all along. So so so 1810 01:52:49.600 --> 01:52:52.239 that's not actually so, did the church fathers in general 1811 01:52:52.560 --> 01:52:53.600 accept the Deutero canon? 1812 01:52:55.800 --> 01:52:57.760 Did they accept that? I think there's a there's a 1813 01:52:57.800 --> 01:53:01.279 difference in there in every one of their canons. I 1814 01:53:01.359 --> 01:53:04.199 think one church father accepts some of the other one. 1815 01:53:04.359 --> 01:53:10.399 In general, did they accept the Duro canon? The answer 1816 01:53:10.479 --> 01:53:13.880 is yes, they did so. And the Deuero canon is 1817 01:53:13.920 --> 01:53:17.199 not from the Apostles. Now, Paul utilizes and cites it 1818 01:53:17.279 --> 01:53:19.000 quite a bit. The New Testament cites it quite a bit. 1819 01:53:19.279 --> 01:53:21.680 But even citation of the New Testament doesn't necessarily mean 1820 01:53:21.720 --> 01:53:24.479 that it's canonical, because the Book of nich is not canonical. 1821 01:53:24.680 --> 01:53:27.479 So again, all all of the things that you're talking 1822 01:53:27.520 --> 01:53:29.720 about are really just a lot of like Protestant or 1823 01:53:29.800 --> 01:53:33.840 Muslim sort of arguments that are spat out and they're 1824 01:53:33.880 --> 01:53:36.600 based on presuppositions that are Muslim or Protestant. That the 1825 01:53:36.680 --> 01:53:38.800 only way that we know what the text is is 1826 01:53:38.880 --> 01:53:40.760 if we do or whether it's true is if we 1827 01:53:40.840 --> 01:53:44.680 do a bunch of textual scholarship and historical research to 1828 01:53:44.760 --> 01:53:47.720 find out. And that's not the way that we go 1829 01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:50.640 about it. It's it's the church is the presupposition. The 1830 01:53:50.760 --> 01:53:52.399 Church is the pillar and ground of true Paul says, 1831 01:53:52.479 --> 01:53:53.079 not the texts. 1832 01:53:54.479 --> 01:53:58.560 So you do you take that words, for example, what 1833 01:53:58.640 --> 01:54:01.359 Paul is saying to interpret that the church's infallible. That 1834 01:54:01.479 --> 01:54:03.039 can't be wrong or what not. 1835 01:54:03.239 --> 01:54:05.720 It cannot be wrong in dogmatic universal teaching. 1836 01:54:07.520 --> 01:54:12.239 So it's infallible and it's dogma right, yes, So how 1837 01:54:12.279 --> 01:54:14.359 do you even how do you come to that conclusion 1838 01:54:14.439 --> 01:54:18.039 without let's say, committing to the fellows to circular reasoning 1839 01:54:18.359 --> 01:54:20.560 or you know, you know, because it's like the Bible 1840 01:54:20.640 --> 01:54:21.199 is infallible. 1841 01:54:21.279 --> 01:54:22.840 You go to the Bible, and then you have. 1842 01:54:22.920 --> 01:54:24.880 To go to the Church, which is also infallible. 1843 01:54:25.119 --> 01:54:28.199 And you know, because all world views are ultimately recursive 1844 01:54:28.439 --> 01:54:31.279 and self referencing and so it's inescapable at the most 1845 01:54:31.319 --> 01:54:36.239 fundamental level. There's no way around that. So there's that's 1846 01:54:36.279 --> 01:54:37.439 why I argue tagged. 1847 01:54:38.479 --> 01:54:43.000 Okay, I see. So do you think Jesus in your review, 1848 01:54:43.039 --> 01:54:46.079 do you think he believes in the Judo canon books 1849 01:54:46.239 --> 01:54:46.840 of the Bible. 1850 01:54:47.479 --> 01:54:49.199 Yeah, he cites them multiple times. 1851 01:54:49.720 --> 01:54:52.199 He cites can you give me one example. 1852 01:54:51.880 --> 01:54:52.680 Where he sides. 1853 01:54:54.199 --> 01:54:56.800 He's well, he's prophesied in the Book of Wisdom, for example, 1854 01:54:56.880 --> 01:54:59.439 he's the righteous man. That's why the church fathers included 1855 01:54:59.479 --> 01:55:02.079 Wisdom in the canon is there's a significant prophecy of 1856 01:55:02.159 --> 01:55:05.079 the person of Christ there. But many of the parables 1857 01:55:05.520 --> 01:55:09.319 Jesus is alluding to or citing the parable of the 1858 01:55:10.439 --> 01:55:17.159 guy who hastily wants to build his barns and retire. 1859 01:55:17.680 --> 01:55:21.760 Jesus says that that will going from memory here because 1860 01:55:21.760 --> 01:55:23.119 I haven't looked at this in many years, but that 1861 01:55:23.359 --> 01:55:26.199 is an allusion to something of this in the dudocononical texts. 1862 01:55:28.039 --> 01:55:32.119 There's many you can search online just New Testament references 1863 01:55:32.159 --> 01:55:34.000 to the Duro Canon. There's like sixty of them. 1864 01:55:35.079 --> 01:55:38.079 Okay, I got you. And why doesn't Jesus, for example, 1865 01:55:38.840 --> 01:55:42.039 I know he makes claims of divinity for example, why 1866 01:55:42.119 --> 01:55:46.199 doesn't he explicitly tell his audience that he is God? 1867 01:55:46.279 --> 01:55:48.840 For example? When he has the opportunity to do so, he. 1868 01:55:48.880 --> 01:55:51.159 Does it many times. So this is just your ignorance 1869 01:55:51.199 --> 01:55:53.079 of the Old Testament and of the Gospels. He does 1870 01:55:53.119 --> 01:55:56.159 this countless times. I mean every chapter, every chapter of 1871 01:55:56.199 --> 01:55:58.960 the Gospel of John includes references to the deity of 1872 01:55:59.000 --> 01:55:59.920 Christ and or the Trinity. 1873 01:56:01.079 --> 01:56:03.279 So I mean, why doesn't I know he makes his 1874 01:56:03.439 --> 01:56:05.720 claims of you know, Divinity for himself, but why not 1875 01:56:05.920 --> 01:56:08.119 just mentioned the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit altogether? 1876 01:56:08.239 --> 01:56:09.880 Have you not read the Gospel of John? He does 1877 01:56:09.960 --> 01:56:12.840 this all the time, especially John fifteen. John fifteen to 1878 01:56:12.880 --> 01:56:14.880 seventeen he does this constantly. What are you talking about? 1879 01:56:18.760 --> 01:56:18.960 Hello? 1880 01:56:19.479 --> 01:56:24.159 Yeah, John fifteen to seventeen he does this constantly. So no, 1881 01:56:24.359 --> 01:56:29.039 because okay, I mean no, yes, have you read John 1882 01:56:29.079 --> 01:56:30.000 fifteen to seventeen. 1883 01:56:31.399 --> 01:56:33.399 I've read that, but I don't know which is exactly Like. 1884 01:56:33.840 --> 01:56:36.840 Those three chapters are constantly him talking about the relationship 1885 01:56:36.920 --> 01:56:40.439 of the Father and the Son to the Spirit. It's 1886 01:56:40.479 --> 01:56:42.359 the high priestly prayer. You don't you don't know this, 1887 01:56:42.439 --> 01:56:43.479 You've not heard of this. It's like one of the 1888 01:56:43.520 --> 01:56:44.720 most famous things in all the mind. 1889 01:56:45.680 --> 01:56:47.720 I've heard, I've heard of it, I've read this in 1890 01:56:47.800 --> 01:56:48.960 the Orthodox Study Bible. 1891 01:56:49.359 --> 01:56:51.560 So but you just said, why doesn't Jesus openly talk 1892 01:56:51.640 --> 01:56:56.039 about stop talking? You just said, why doesn't Jesus stop talking? 1893 01:56:57.039 --> 01:57:03.079 Stop talking? Shut up up? Didn't even mention that you 1894 01:57:04.520 --> 01:57:07.159 are you going to shut up or not? Why are 1895 01:57:07.199 --> 01:57:10.399 you yapping over me? At every point you get refuted 1896 01:57:10.439 --> 01:57:15.039 and you just keep yapping. Okay, you're blocked. Are you 1897 01:57:15.159 --> 01:57:23.880 listening to me? Are you listening? All right? Maybe he 1898 01:57:23.960 --> 01:57:29.680 can't hear. But like everything I respond with, he blows 1899 01:57:29.760 --> 01:57:32.000 past to the next thing. It's like, did you not 1900 01:57:32.079 --> 01:57:34.279 want to go through the twenty plus text that I 1901 01:57:34.319 --> 01:57:36.479 have about the relationship the Holy Spirit of the Old Testament? 1902 01:57:37.840 --> 01:57:41.159 They angered him at the waters of Strife so that 1903 01:57:41.319 --> 01:57:43.199 it went ill with Moses on account of them, and 1904 01:57:43.199 --> 01:57:47.800 they rebelled against his Holy Spirit. So I start going 1905 01:57:47.840 --> 01:57:49.399 into this and he blows past, wants to go to 1906 01:57:49.439 --> 01:57:51.520 the next thing. Well, what in Jesus talk about the Trinity? 1907 01:57:51.840 --> 01:57:54.359 He did John seven fifteen to seventeen, and like three, 1908 01:57:54.600 --> 01:57:58.279 you can't go read three chapters? Oh well I don't 1909 01:57:58.279 --> 01:58:01.640 have time for that, And okay, well whatever like, literally, 1910 01:58:01.680 --> 01:58:04.560 the entire chapter is the relationship of John stepping between 1911 01:58:04.600 --> 01:58:06.720 him and the Holy Spirit and the Father. Like the 1912 01:58:06.800 --> 01:58:09.119 whole chapters are about that. What are you talking about? 1913 01:58:22.800 --> 01:58:27.760 John sixteen, The entire section about the sending of the 1914 01:58:27.800 --> 01:58:34.000 Holy Spirit from the Father through the Son. It's called 1915 01:58:34.000 --> 01:58:36.920 the High Priestly Prayer. It's all about the Trinity. I 1916 01:58:37.039 --> 01:58:39.239 read all that. Well, then, what do you mean he 1917 01:58:39.319 --> 01:58:41.840 never talks about the trinity and the relationship of the person. 1918 01:58:41.840 --> 01:58:45.359 It's like, Josh. 1919 01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:53.520 Out of sheer necessity. 1920 01:58:53.960 --> 01:58:58.920 I thought I'd riff on the Fhronsier mom debate there. 1921 01:58:59.600 --> 01:59:01.039 Well, bodied, so. 1922 01:59:03.199 --> 01:59:04.039 You definitely did. 1923 01:59:04.239 --> 01:59:07.239 I also think you should maybe press the cross up 1924 01:59:07.279 --> 01:59:08.039 against your foot. 1925 01:59:08.159 --> 01:59:11.439 It might help to reduce the scent or you know, 1926 01:59:11.800 --> 01:59:16.880 the sound. A couple of questions. 1927 01:59:16.960 --> 01:59:20.199 One is, have you ever read. 1928 01:59:21.399 --> 01:59:22.520 The Fire That Consumes? 1929 01:59:23.079 --> 01:59:29.359 No, it's it's in my former Protestant days in my explorations. 1930 01:59:29.439 --> 01:59:32.520 It was like the guy's name is Edward Fudge, and 1931 01:59:32.640 --> 01:59:33.840 he's like the point guy. 1932 01:59:35.560 --> 01:59:42.079 Yes, yes, yes, no no joking and uh he uh, 1933 01:59:42.399 --> 01:59:46.840 he's like the point guy for conditionalism or annihilationism. It's 1934 01:59:46.880 --> 01:59:48.920 like it's like a five hundred page book and it's 1935 01:59:48.960 --> 01:59:52.319 pretty interesting, even though it's coming from again more of 1936 01:59:52.359 --> 01:59:55.520 a Protestant bent, But some of how he goes about 1937 01:59:55.880 --> 01:59:58.159 reading the Ole Testament, like a lot of the. 1938 01:59:58.199 --> 02:00:01.279 Passages that talk about Hell or destr all that stuff. 1939 02:00:01.359 --> 02:00:04.000 So I just was wondering if you, in your previous 1940 02:00:04.079 --> 02:00:06.079 Protestant days came across that. 1941 02:00:06.640 --> 02:00:09.560 Yes, and the solution is you need to read the 1942 02:00:09.600 --> 02:00:20.000 book On the Brink by Damon Duck. Okay, awesome, I 1943 02:00:20.239 --> 02:00:22.079 can only find a good picture of Damon Duck. I 1944 02:00:22.119 --> 02:00:25.039 remember finding this book when I was a Protestant. Oh, 1945 02:00:25.039 --> 02:00:28.199 here's a good picture of Damon Duck. Here's Damon Duck, 1946 02:00:29.800 --> 02:00:32.560 and he will teach you the solution to all Biblical 1947 02:00:33.800 --> 02:00:38.359 prophecies with On the Brink by Damon Duck. No, I apologize, 1948 02:00:38.359 --> 02:00:40.319 I've never heard of what you're talking about, and I 1949 02:00:40.680 --> 02:00:43.520 don't know what that is the point man for annihilationism. 1950 02:00:44.520 --> 02:00:49.319 I mean, there's so many passages that pretty clearly teach 1951 02:00:49.399 --> 02:00:51.720 that the soul continues on after death, like Jesus talking 1952 02:00:51.760 --> 02:00:54.000 about the rich man and the parable the rich man 1953 02:00:54.079 --> 02:00:58.199 who dies and goes to Hades and he's there and 1954 02:00:58.239 --> 02:01:01.079 he's talking about Abraham's Bosom. I mean, is I just 1955 02:01:01.359 --> 02:01:06.199 where do people come up with these ideas. It's not 1956 02:01:07.680 --> 02:01:09.880 FAQ day, so we're looking for people to disagree. We've 1957 02:01:09.920 --> 02:01:11.359 got a lot of people here we get. We hit 1958 02:01:11.520 --> 02:01:17.880 nineteen thousand, nineteen hundred, a Q minist we hit nineteen hundred, 1959 02:01:19.319 --> 02:01:23.239 which was a first. So maybe people dumped their chat 1960 02:01:23.319 --> 02:01:23.840 into my chat. 1961 02:01:23.840 --> 02:01:24.319 I don't know, but. 1962 02:01:26.239 --> 02:01:29.560 Darkwing Duck is the best End Times theologian out there. 1963 02:01:29.680 --> 02:01:35.079 For sure. He's better than John Hagy justin ten dollars 1964 02:01:36.039 --> 02:01:38.960 an argument for the honorific language. Saint Cyril is closer 1965 02:01:39.000 --> 02:01:43.119 in approximation to ephesis than Pope Saint Celotine. Celestine. Cyril 1966 02:01:43.159 --> 02:01:46.880 presides over the council primarily and helps Cyril's Celestine with 1967 02:01:47.000 --> 02:01:50.640 his within his jurisdiction as an apostolic. See interesting, Yeah, 1968 02:01:50.840 --> 02:01:53.119 there's a lot of examples of this that really conflict 1969 02:01:53.199 --> 02:02:00.439 with the Vatican One presubpositions. In fact, again, Sashinsky in 1970 02:02:00.600 --> 02:02:09.000 the chapter of the second to seventh century, that's whole 1971 02:02:09.079 --> 02:02:11.159 chapter deals with all those, and we did a whole 1972 02:02:12.039 --> 02:02:13.560 we did a whole run through of those the other day. 1973 02:02:14.720 --> 02:02:26.199 Let's see that got dropped off a qmanist. Are you there, good. 1974 02:02:26.079 --> 02:02:26.640 Evening, Joe. 1975 02:02:28.439 --> 02:02:32.039 So actually the person earlier who was asking about the 1976 02:02:32.199 --> 02:02:35.399 relationships when in Genesis won twenty six kind of answer 1977 02:02:35.479 --> 02:02:37.399 that when it says our image. 1978 02:02:37.079 --> 02:02:42.039 Our likeness, it would but only on the trinitarian presupposition, 1979 02:02:42.199 --> 02:02:44.520 because people always say, oh, that's just the royal we 1980 02:02:44.760 --> 02:02:46.520 it's just God and the angels. So they already have 1981 02:02:46.680 --> 02:02:48.520 like a patent response. That's why I think it's better 1982 02:02:48.600 --> 02:02:52.159 to go to other explicit attacks. I just didn't even 1983 02:02:52.159 --> 02:02:54.119 get to them. There's many more. He just blew past it. 1984 02:02:56.640 --> 02:03:01.039 I mean there's judges. There's Joel three, Ezekiel one, Daniel 1985 02:03:01.039 --> 02:03:03.880 four nine, Exodus fifteen eight to ten, Exodus forty twenty 1986 02:03:03.920 --> 02:03:06.159 eight to thirty. Palm won thirty eight seven, so I 1987 02:03:06.279 --> 02:03:08.159 won forty two to ten, Joe thirty three four, Joe 1988 02:03:08.239 --> 02:03:12.239 thirty eight one, and two judges thirteen twenty five, fourteen 1989 02:03:12.319 --> 02:03:20.439 five nineteen. Zech Arie won six. Micah, I can't read 1990 02:03:20.479 --> 02:03:22.760 what my note is there Genesis forty one thirty eight. 1991 02:03:22.880 --> 02:03:25.119 I mean, there's there's tons of passages about the the 1992 02:03:25.159 --> 02:03:26.359 Holy Spirit and the Old Testpent go. 1993 02:03:26.359 --> 02:03:30.359 Ahead, right, and then also this is not necessarily an 1994 02:03:30.439 --> 02:03:32.600 argument against you, but I did see Hebrew roots in 1995 02:03:32.640 --> 02:03:34.800 the title, and I kind of wanted to ask if 1996 02:03:35.520 --> 02:03:41.039 there's numbers chapter or verse twenty seven, eighteen through twenty three, 1997 02:03:41.119 --> 02:03:44.880 wouldn't that be a direct refutation of Hebrew roots considering 1998 02:03:45.520 --> 02:03:47.319 Moses is laying on hands and. 1999 02:03:47.359 --> 02:03:50.039 Transferring hold on numbers? What number one numbers? 2000 02:03:50.079 --> 02:03:52.319 What numbers twenty seven? 2001 02:03:52.560 --> 02:03:58.880 Verse eighteen through twenty three, because Moses is it's a congregation, 2002 02:03:59.039 --> 02:04:03.600 it's inaugurated and giving power, it's giving some sort of authority. 2003 02:04:03.800 --> 02:04:05.359 And I don't think they believe in that at all. 2004 02:04:05.520 --> 02:04:07.159 So I thought that was their whole thing. 2005 02:04:07.359 --> 02:04:09.000 By the way, here's the Holy Spirit. Again, I didn't 2006 02:04:09.000 --> 02:04:11.239 have this one written down, so let me write that down. 2007 02:04:14.720 --> 02:04:22.640 Numbers twenty seven and it's eight. 2008 02:04:24.399 --> 02:04:25.520 Eighteen through twenty three. 2009 02:04:25.640 --> 02:04:27.199 Yeah, I'm just looking for the Holy Spirit reference. 2010 02:04:27.439 --> 02:04:33.039 It's verse eighteen, all right, Yeah, the spirit is there. 2011 02:04:33.359 --> 02:04:36.079 Take Joshua, the son of non in whom is the Spirit, 2012 02:04:36.119 --> 02:04:38.560 and lay your hands on him. Right, So yeah, that 2013 02:04:38.680 --> 02:04:42.479 has to be that's the Spirit of God obviously. And 2014 02:04:42.600 --> 02:04:47.279 so you're saying, well, Hebrew Richs don't believe in any 2015 02:04:47.399 --> 02:04:48.319 kind of succession. 2016 02:04:49.520 --> 02:04:51.159 Yeah, like you know, the New Testament with. 2017 02:04:53.000 --> 02:04:55.840 Breathing on the Holy Spirit and then retaining remitting sins. 2018 02:04:56.000 --> 02:04:57.319 I don't think they believe in that for. 2019 02:04:57.399 --> 02:04:59.560 Starters, But if they're going to be following the Old 2020 02:04:59.640 --> 02:05:02.199 test Man, that same thing is in the Old Testament 2021 02:05:02.359 --> 02:05:04.680 in that scripture. 2022 02:05:04.279 --> 02:05:08.720 Right there with Well, what if they tend to default 2023 02:05:08.760 --> 02:05:11.039 to like rabbinic stuff, So maybe they would say, well, 2024 02:05:11.079 --> 02:05:14.399 that was what was proper to Israel at that time, 2025 02:05:14.880 --> 02:05:16.960 but this is before the rise of you know, the 2026 02:05:17.039 --> 02:05:19.399 rabbinical structure, so they would probably say something like now 2027 02:05:19.479 --> 02:05:24.239 it's the Israel is governed by the rabbin or something. 2028 02:05:24.960 --> 02:05:26.920 It is interesting because they thought it was their whole 2029 02:05:26.960 --> 02:05:30.239 thing to not be like rabbinical Jews, but to try 2030 02:05:30.279 --> 02:05:32.079 and reconstruct something that was lost. 2031 02:05:32.319 --> 02:05:34.880 Well that's okay, interesting. I mean I think they will 2032 02:05:34.920 --> 02:05:37.640 default to Rabbinic stuff when it suits them. Like in 2033 02:05:37.720 --> 02:05:42.000 the debate with Bryson, he would randomly start citing rabbis 2034 02:05:42.039 --> 02:05:44.479 and rabbinical stuff, but then he's not into that, but 2035 02:05:44.560 --> 02:05:46.079 he is when he needs it. So it's kind of 2036 02:05:46.119 --> 02:05:48.199 I think they're just arbitrary. They're there, but that's a 2037 02:05:48.239 --> 02:05:51.560 good point. So they're trying to reconstruct something ancient. Okay, well, yeah, 2038 02:05:51.560 --> 02:05:53.920 why wouldn't Why wouldn't this be the case if you're 2039 02:05:53.920 --> 02:05:55.520 reconstructing the ancient system. 2040 02:05:55.319 --> 02:05:58.720 Right, Well, the church would have been you know, case 2041 02:05:58.760 --> 02:06:00.800 of hell would have prevailed, So that doesn't make sense. 2042 02:06:00.800 --> 02:06:01.760 Well, that's true, that's true. 2043 02:06:01.960 --> 02:06:03.760 Yeah, all right, thank you so much. 2044 02:06:03.760 --> 02:06:06.039 No, that's an interesting angle. I would like to see 2045 02:06:06.079 --> 02:06:07.960 how if we have any Hebrew roots in the audience, 2046 02:06:08.279 --> 02:06:12.279 if you want to come explain to us how it's 2047 02:06:12.279 --> 02:06:15.159 supposed to be governed, and where is your where is 2048 02:06:15.199 --> 02:06:17.920 your approximation to what's going on here in numbers? You're 2049 02:06:17.960 --> 02:06:34.359 welcome to hop on. Michael, Michael, your foot's farting. What's up? 2050 02:06:34.920 --> 02:06:36.439 We can hear you, We can hear you. 2051 02:06:40.840 --> 02:06:42.560 What's up out Sidy. 2052 02:06:45.119 --> 02:06:46.880 I've been I've been wanting to ask you. I'm glad 2053 02:06:46.920 --> 02:06:49.880 I was kind of able to come on. So have 2054 02:06:50.039 --> 02:06:51.960 you heard of Frank Took? I tried to look into 2055 02:06:52.039 --> 02:06:55.119 him because I know you you a feuded William Lane craig. 2056 02:06:56.600 --> 02:06:58.199 But I'm pretty sure you've heard of Frank Tuk. 2057 02:06:58.920 --> 02:07:00.800 I've heard this name. What is he? I don't I 2058 02:07:00.840 --> 02:07:02.239 don't so I. 2059 02:07:02.319 --> 02:07:05.039 Believe and that that's kind of the question, right, So 2060 02:07:06.000 --> 02:07:08.479 I believe he's a Protestant, but I don't believe he 2061 02:07:08.560 --> 02:07:11.359 believed that William Wayne Craig believes, or kids Roll or 2062 02:07:12.000 --> 02:07:15.760 any of the other people. My question is, I've reviewed 2063 02:07:15.800 --> 02:07:20.199 your videos on tag and everything, and I reviewed your 2064 02:07:20.399 --> 02:07:23.039 videos on why you're not an atheist, a Protestant, a 2065 02:07:23.199 --> 02:07:27.000 Roman Catholic, you know why you're an Orthodox. What do 2066 02:07:27.119 --> 02:07:31.640 you think of the creation creator argument for like an atheist. 2067 02:07:32.039 --> 02:07:34.479 I've been wanting to get your opinion on that. If 2068 02:07:34.520 --> 02:07:38.079 you don't know what that is, it's well, okay, So 2069 02:07:39.039 --> 02:07:43.439 what he says is, so we know that everything has 2070 02:07:43.520 --> 02:07:47.359 a creator, right, Like, uh, you know I have a creator. 2071 02:07:47.640 --> 02:07:50.560 You know a book, you know, something wrote this, somebody 2072 02:07:50.640 --> 02:07:54.479 built this, right, And so if we know that we 2073 02:07:54.600 --> 02:07:55.800 know everything has a creator? 2074 02:07:55.960 --> 02:07:57.439 Oh well, I mean I could just if I was 2075 02:07:57.479 --> 02:07:59.640 a smart atheist, I would just from the outset say, 2076 02:08:00.239 --> 02:08:01.479 how do we know that? How do we know that 2077 02:08:01.880 --> 02:08:03.079 that universal claim. 2078 02:08:02.920 --> 02:08:03.359 Is the case? 2079 02:08:04.399 --> 02:08:07.039 Well, I would say, so, see, that's that's I'm kind 2080 02:08:07.079 --> 02:08:09.479 of glad that we debate. So I would say that 2081 02:08:09.680 --> 02:08:12.319 you can look around and see that everything has a creator. 2082 02:08:12.880 --> 02:08:16.439 Again, that's well, that's breaking the question. So how as 2083 02:08:16.720 --> 02:08:20.199 a finite being looking around, do I know the universal 2084 02:08:20.319 --> 02:08:24.960 claim everything has a creator? That's that's the illogical leap 2085 02:08:25.079 --> 02:08:30.279 there to get from finite particular experiences to universal state 2086 02:08:30.319 --> 02:08:31.840 of affairs as a non sequitur. 2087 02:08:32.720 --> 02:08:36.560 Yeah, no, I get you. I think. I think because 2088 02:08:36.600 --> 02:08:38.960 then he goes from well, that has a creator, and 2089 02:08:39.000 --> 02:08:43.239 then we know that that thing that had a creator 2090 02:08:43.359 --> 02:08:46.800 had to be intelligent, loving like because we know how 2091 02:08:46.840 --> 02:08:47.199 we are. 2092 02:08:47.439 --> 02:08:50.279 Well again, all of these arguments that are just variations 2093 02:08:50.359 --> 02:08:53.720 on other classical apologetic arguments. They missed the point of 2094 02:08:54.159 --> 02:08:58.199 the their They don't even realize how much stuff they're assuming. Okay, 2095 02:08:58.239 --> 02:09:00.680 so how do we know, first of all, that that's 2096 02:09:00.760 --> 02:09:02.279 the case, And how do we know that all of 2097 02:09:02.399 --> 02:09:04.960 this specific attributes that you listed are part of this 2098 02:09:05.600 --> 02:09:09.399 so called creator? These are all just they're just arbitrary 2099 02:09:10.000 --> 02:09:14.199 like assumptions. There's nothing about if we're remember classical argumentation 2100 02:09:14.279 --> 02:09:18.760 and apologetics is assuming neutrality. Oh we're assuming neutrality, then 2101 02:09:18.920 --> 02:09:21.159 how are we supposed to Why am I supposed to 2102 02:09:21.199 --> 02:09:24.199 accept all these metaphysical baggage claims that you're making about 2103 02:09:24.520 --> 02:09:28.159 something that was supposed to be neutral? Those are all 2104 02:09:28.239 --> 02:09:28.920 non sequitors. 2105 02:09:29.960 --> 02:09:33.479 Okay, well I kind of so, I kind of just 2106 02:09:33.680 --> 02:09:35.680 putting that aside. I kind of watched your debate on 2107 02:09:35.760 --> 02:09:39.399 Matt Dilla Hunty and I didn't agree, and I kind 2108 02:09:39.439 --> 02:09:42.640 of think he's an a hole. Sometimes, I do think 2109 02:09:42.760 --> 02:09:45.399 that you'll argument, and I talked to my fiance about this. 2110 02:09:45.800 --> 02:09:48.920 I think you'll argument your orthodox augment pretty much refute 2111 02:09:48.920 --> 02:09:51.760 a lot of the points that a lot of people make. 2112 02:09:51.840 --> 02:09:54.439 Like you said, well, that's the Protestant like Protestants believe 2113 02:09:54.479 --> 02:09:58.000 in solar script. Protestants would believe that as Orthodox, we 2114 02:09:58.039 --> 02:10:01.880 don't believe that. Do you feel like as an Orthodox 2115 02:10:02.199 --> 02:10:04.399 obviously because you know that it's true, But do you 2116 02:10:04.479 --> 02:10:07.039 think that makes it very difficult, especially when you bring 2117 02:10:07.079 --> 02:10:09.520 in the tag argument for an atheist to refute you, 2118 02:10:09.880 --> 02:10:12.119 because I feel like that's what I've seen a lot. 2119 02:10:12.960 --> 02:10:17.279 Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, Okay, Well, I mean, look, I've debated 2120 02:10:17.319 --> 02:10:19.800 a lot of atheists, and there are smart atheists, and 2121 02:10:19.880 --> 02:10:21.880 so the reason I don't go with all these classical 2122 02:10:22.000 --> 02:10:24.640 forms of arguments is that smart atheists know how to 2123 02:10:25.399 --> 02:10:27.479 point out that they're bad, flawed arguments. 2124 02:10:28.319 --> 02:10:32.000 Yeah, no, that's a good point. I will rewatch him 2125 02:10:32.279 --> 02:10:34.159 and then I'll come back on the stream. 2126 02:10:35.039 --> 02:10:38.000 Yeah, tell me some more. I'm not familiar with Frank Trick, 2127 02:10:38.079 --> 02:10:44.479 but he looks like an evangelical, evidentialist apologist so Hades. 2128 02:10:51.159 --> 02:10:54.560 Oh yes, sir, so. 2129 02:10:55.159 --> 02:11:00.520 Saint Phronsie she operated to me appear to me. That 2130 02:11:00.640 --> 02:11:01.439 was kind of crazy. 2131 02:11:03.000 --> 02:11:05.239 Did she give you a new public divine revelation or 2132 02:11:05.319 --> 02:11:07.000 is it a private revelation? Yeah? 2133 02:11:07.199 --> 02:11:09.680 Yeah, no, she told me that the whole church has 2134 02:11:09.680 --> 02:11:11.920 been corrupt, and I got to start the Phronsie at church. 2135 02:11:12.279 --> 02:11:16.960 We got okay, yeah, St. Pronsia the Woozy. I hope 2136 02:11:17.000 --> 02:11:19.079 that that that you have a special place for single 2137 02:11:19.159 --> 02:11:19.680 moms in. 2138 02:11:21.199 --> 02:11:23.520 It's gonna be it's me all wine moms and there's 2139 02:11:23.520 --> 02:11:25.640 only be like one male pastor and he's going to 2140 02:11:25.720 --> 02:11:28.039 kind of like, you know, control all the wine. 2141 02:11:27.840 --> 02:11:31.880 Moms the cathedral when you build it. Instead of having gargoyles, 2142 02:11:31.920 --> 02:11:34.239 you have pit bulls, right, and. 2143 02:11:34.239 --> 02:11:37.079 They're going to be having like holding jugs of wine 2144 02:11:37.119 --> 02:11:37.840 into our fountain. 2145 02:11:38.039 --> 02:11:39.000 So that's gonna be pretty cool. 2146 02:11:39.880 --> 02:11:42.119 Yeah. Well, single, single wine moms are big fans of 2147 02:11:42.159 --> 02:11:43.920 pit bulls, so that's that's that's true. 2148 02:11:44.000 --> 02:11:49.079 Yeah, okay, Well, first before I get to my question, 2149 02:11:49.119 --> 02:11:50.680 I want to ask, did you did you see that 2150 02:11:51.279 --> 02:11:56.760 uh Redeemed Zoomer had a debate with a neo platonic 2151 02:11:57.039 --> 02:11:58.079 liberal Christian. 2152 02:11:58.840 --> 02:11:59.159 I did not. 2153 02:12:00.439 --> 02:12:02.479 Well, if you want to get a lot. 2154 02:12:02.359 --> 02:12:04.159 Of views on YouTube, you can. You can do a 2155 02:12:04.399 --> 02:12:06.920 scuff debate review. I would call it like cringe cord. 2156 02:12:09.760 --> 02:12:11.720 It was like a fun dumb and dummer. 2157 02:12:11.560 --> 02:12:12.239 Debating each other. 2158 02:12:12.359 --> 02:12:16.199 So it sounds fun maybe anyway, So I'm not gonna 2159 02:12:16.239 --> 02:12:19.840 I know, I'm an Orthodox obviously, so I know about TAG. 2160 02:12:19.960 --> 02:12:22.560 But I was talking to an agnostic and I had 2161 02:12:22.640 --> 02:12:24.399 asked them if they had heard of TAG, and they 2162 02:12:24.439 --> 02:12:27.359 said that yes, and it sounded unsound, and so I 2163 02:12:27.439 --> 02:12:30.560 asked for a reason why, and they gave this reason. 2164 02:12:30.640 --> 02:12:32.479 I was just hoping that you could go over it. 2165 02:12:32.640 --> 02:12:34.840 I did say that they should come and speak to you, 2166 02:12:35.000 --> 02:12:36.800 but they said they would rather drag their hand over 2167 02:12:36.920 --> 02:12:37.600 a cheese grater. 2168 02:12:37.720 --> 02:12:40.520 They talked to you, what I'm talking about, Well, you 2169 02:12:40.640 --> 02:12:43.920 tell him, you tell him. If he comes so comes 2170 02:12:43.960 --> 02:12:48.000 and talks to me, he's gonna get the uncreated farting 2171 02:12:48.079 --> 02:12:49.359 foot boom. 2172 02:12:49.800 --> 02:12:51.039 You're gonna show him that I'm creative. 2173 02:12:51.039 --> 02:12:51.880 That's where he's gonna get. 2174 02:12:52.600 --> 02:12:57.880 Yes, Okay, So he said that TAG is unsound and 2175 02:12:57.960 --> 02:12:59.600 this obviously this is on Twitter, so it's a very 2176 02:12:59.600 --> 02:13:02.720 short on it. He says it unhinges on the semantic 2177 02:13:02.840 --> 02:13:07.399 tool as five, that possibility can infer necessity something that 2178 02:13:07.600 --> 02:13:11.079 is not uncontroversial. It also depends on a quite narrow 2179 02:13:11.199 --> 02:13:14.239 restrain of what logic and reason is. So I was 2180 02:13:14.279 --> 02:13:17.560 wondering what would be the refutation for that. In regards 2181 02:13:17.600 --> 02:13:18.840 to tag. 2182 02:13:21.119 --> 02:13:23.479 It sounds like more of a critique of It's the 2183 02:13:23.560 --> 02:13:26.239 type of critique that very Stroud does of transcendent arguments 2184 02:13:26.279 --> 02:13:29.560 in general, or contient transcendent arguments, which it sounds like 2185 02:13:29.680 --> 02:13:33.359 it's critiquing the fact that the CONTs way of trying 2186 02:13:33.399 --> 02:13:36.840 to do or transit arguments assumes a lot of things 2187 02:13:36.840 --> 02:13:38.359 that are not yet proven or not that are not 2188 02:13:38.520 --> 02:13:44.199 yet demonstrated demonstrated, like the fact that, okay, let's say 2189 02:13:44.239 --> 02:13:48.560 that you prove a coherent transcendental system. That doesn't tell 2190 02:13:48.640 --> 02:13:50.920 us necessarily that it's working in the world. That's another 2191 02:13:50.960 --> 02:13:53.399 thing you have to assume. So I think that yes, 2192 02:13:53.840 --> 02:13:59.000 that is a valid critique of bare transcendental secular argumentation. 2193 02:14:00.359 --> 02:14:03.800 The difference is that we're not making contient transcendental arguments. 2194 02:14:03.880 --> 02:14:07.920 We're making a transcendental argument for God and for the 2195 02:14:08.000 --> 02:14:10.760 Christian paradigm. And I think FDA wants to speak on this. 2196 02:14:10.920 --> 02:14:15.119 He probably he's he's more skilled in modal logic than me, 2197 02:14:15.239 --> 02:14:17.399 so he would probably speak to this part of them. 2198 02:14:17.600 --> 02:14:17.840 I would. 2199 02:14:17.840 --> 02:14:19.239 I would like to hear what he has to say too. 2200 02:14:19.920 --> 02:14:21.600 All right, forgive me, because I'm. 2201 02:14:21.479 --> 02:14:22.319 About to leave a little bit. 2202 02:14:22.359 --> 02:14:27.039 I've got to play the bluegrass band called string being. 2203 02:14:27.760 --> 02:14:30.920 It's like a mix between Heidegger and uh. 2204 02:14:33.439 --> 02:14:37.479 Beans. This is precisely a string being that will cause 2205 02:14:37.560 --> 02:14:38.840 the foot to fart, foot fart. 2206 02:14:39.039 --> 02:14:43.439 Yes, So it's interesting he brought this. Somebody brought this 2207 02:14:43.960 --> 02:14:47.760 guy up, wrote me or something. I got a message 2208 02:14:47.760 --> 02:14:50.680 about this, and I can't remember. It's the problem with 2209 02:14:50.720 --> 02:14:51.119 the internet. 2210 02:14:51.199 --> 02:14:55.199 You've got going to put you on something you can't remember. 2211 02:14:54.960 --> 02:15:00.600 What message right. So from what I remember, I think 2212 02:15:00.720 --> 02:15:02.199 the individual. 2213 02:15:03.520 --> 02:15:08.640 Is possibly confusing with the S five modal logic. 2214 02:15:12.600 --> 02:15:16.800 Something that's probably similar to kind of more modern like 2215 02:15:16.920 --> 02:15:22.640 gradell ontological arguments that the possible being with these properties, 2216 02:15:22.680 --> 02:15:23.880 then it must be necessary. 2217 02:15:26.319 --> 02:15:29.359 I could be wrong on that, but the way that 2218 02:15:29.439 --> 02:15:31.920 I construte that argument, and it's not dependent on S 2219 02:15:32.039 --> 02:15:34.600 five modal logic, it's just people wanted to see it 2220 02:15:35.600 --> 02:15:40.439 done in S five modal logic. None of that stuff 2221 02:15:40.800 --> 02:15:45.479 is what I did in that argument is formally invalid. 2222 02:15:45.760 --> 02:15:49.279 That all comes from both the k axiom and the 2223 02:15:51.640 --> 02:15:52.800 I'm trying to remember the other. 2224 02:15:55.159 --> 02:15:56.680 Axiom that I used. 2225 02:15:58.640 --> 02:16:02.000 With that, So I don't know what he's really kind 2226 02:16:02.039 --> 02:16:04.640 of talking about. I know a lot of people might 2227 02:16:04.720 --> 02:16:07.880 not be familiar with S five modal logic. 2228 02:16:11.039 --> 02:16:12.239 He might be one of them. 2229 02:16:12.159 --> 02:16:13.960 Too, And so it is confusing. 2230 02:16:14.119 --> 02:16:24.239 How can, for example, just from possibility you move to necessity. Again, 2231 02:16:24.880 --> 02:16:33.879 this is quite complicated modal logic. And again I just used. 2232 02:16:35.840 --> 02:16:40.200 The axioms like the k axiom in some various other 2233 02:16:40.280 --> 02:16:41.920 thing straight just from. 2234 02:16:43.319 --> 02:16:44.040 The modal logic. 2235 02:16:44.159 --> 02:16:48.360 So there's nothing formally invalid about about that. 2236 02:16:51.319 --> 02:16:56.040 Now, Jay is correct if he is hinting at. 2237 02:16:58.840 --> 02:17:02.559 An objection to trans in and anal arguments itself, such 2238 02:17:02.680 --> 02:17:07.440 that they're well, they're fulfilling possibly an epistemic or a 2239 02:17:07.559 --> 02:17:08.319 modal condition. 2240 02:17:08.479 --> 02:17:12.000 But that doesn't get you to what's called a. 2241 02:17:15.040 --> 02:17:18.399 Verification principle, that the thing exists beyond the cost space 2242 02:17:18.479 --> 02:17:19.079 of reasons. 2243 02:17:19.840 --> 02:17:21.639 That is the Barry Stroud. 2244 02:17:24.000 --> 02:17:29.639 Argument argument, which just misses the whole point that again 2245 02:17:29.760 --> 02:17:34.600 we're not system building. And my whole argument is our 2246 02:17:34.760 --> 02:17:43.479 argument is premised on the radical dichotomy between an autonomous 2247 02:17:43.559 --> 02:17:46.280 epistemology and a revealed epistemology. 2248 02:17:46.479 --> 02:17:49.479 So I think that Barry Stroud's. 2249 02:17:49.079 --> 02:17:52.639 Argument is exactly the argument when we want I accept 2250 02:17:52.840 --> 02:17:56.840 and be like exactly like all these So people will 2251 02:17:56.920 --> 02:17:58.959 point like, well, what do you how do you do 2252 02:17:59.399 --> 02:18:03.319 with Chisholm's problem of criterion, how do you deal with 2253 02:18:04.200 --> 02:18:05.200 Barry Straus's army. 2254 02:18:05.440 --> 02:18:07.200 Those are all arguments for TAG. 2255 02:18:09.360 --> 02:18:12.920 They all prove our point that even if you try 2256 02:18:13.040 --> 02:18:15.479 to take the form of the argument and do this, 2257 02:18:15.719 --> 02:18:17.600 try to pull this stuff off, it doesn't work. 2258 02:18:18.200 --> 02:18:18.399 Why. 2259 02:18:19.000 --> 02:18:20.719 It's not because the form of the arguments, because of 2260 02:18:20.840 --> 02:18:26.479 the the it's the pretended autonomy starting from an autonomous position. 2261 02:18:28.479 --> 02:18:30.559 I see, Okay, people miss that because. 2262 02:18:30.319 --> 02:18:33.040 We're just so tall, like caught up in. 2263 02:18:36.680 --> 02:18:39.159 And our own autonomy and these systems. 2264 02:18:40.520 --> 02:18:43.079 Right, Yeah, I think that was a great explanation. I 2265 02:18:43.120 --> 02:18:45.440 had it recommended him you because I know that, you know, 2266 02:18:46.000 --> 02:18:48.879 you're really good of TAG and stuff. But apparently he 2267 02:18:48.959 --> 02:18:50.840 had better things to do, and apparently he thought that 2268 02:18:51.719 --> 02:18:53.520 self harm was better than talking to Jay. 2269 02:18:53.719 --> 02:18:56.520 So and I was just like, I saw that someone 2270 02:18:56.719 --> 02:18:59.440 saw something. He says, I'd rather crate my hand through 2271 02:18:59.520 --> 02:19:00.680 a great. 2272 02:19:02.079 --> 02:19:03.760 I mean when you come over here. 2273 02:19:03.639 --> 02:19:05.879 You brother, that is haram. 2274 02:19:06.120 --> 02:19:08.959 She's greater hand handed, she's greater brother. 2275 02:19:09.040 --> 02:19:10.719 You're going to get the farting foot over here. And 2276 02:19:10.879 --> 02:19:14.159 I don't blame people because that can be a traumatic event. 2277 02:19:14.239 --> 02:19:21.440 Rash one. What's up, by the way, that's sahe. The 2278 02:19:21.520 --> 02:19:27.879 farting foot is saw he. For those of doubt, that 2279 02:19:28.040 --> 02:19:30.639 is not daif that is sah. What's up? 2280 02:19:30.719 --> 02:19:30.840 Man? 2281 02:19:31.959 --> 02:19:33.680 Hello? Are you an star seed? 2282 02:19:33.760 --> 02:19:40.600 Brother? Is it okay? If I ask you some things 2283 02:19:40.600 --> 02:19:41.600 about council don. 2284 02:19:43.760 --> 02:19:45.040 Yeah? What's what's on your mind? 2285 02:19:45.920 --> 02:19:51.159 I'm to know, just to introduce some Oriental luisidox. 2286 02:19:52.159 --> 02:19:55.319 Okay, Uh, not really the topics, but what's on your mind? 2287 02:19:56.440 --> 02:19:59.280 If if it's if it's not appropriate for this live, 2288 02:19:59.360 --> 02:20:00.719 I can read you in another time. 2289 02:20:01.559 --> 02:20:02.520 What what's the question? 2290 02:20:04.239 --> 02:20:07.840 Well, it's uh, it's on the letter of the bus. 2291 02:20:10.920 --> 02:20:14.239 I don't know specifically or have a hard position on 2292 02:20:15.479 --> 02:20:19.159 ibs of Odessa and the letters or whatever. I mean, Calcadan, 2293 02:20:19.280 --> 02:20:23.000 don't they like reject like they say the guys weren't bad, 2294 02:20:23.079 --> 02:20:25.879 but the letters are false or something like that. I 2295 02:20:25.920 --> 02:20:27.440 haven't looked so, I haven't looked at this in a 2296 02:20:27.479 --> 02:20:27.840 long time. 2297 02:20:29.159 --> 02:20:32.280 Okay, So so you're not sure on the position whether 2298 02:20:32.440 --> 02:20:33.879 this letter is Orthodox or not. 2299 02:20:34.159 --> 02:20:37.399 No, I'm just trying to remember that doesn't Calcadan says 2300 02:20:37.520 --> 02:20:43.159 something like the guys are bad, but the guys are 2301 02:20:43.200 --> 02:20:44.120 okay with the letters are bad? 2302 02:20:44.200 --> 02:20:45.159 Is that? Do you do? You? 2303 02:20:46.719 --> 02:20:47.760 Is that the is that the point? 2304 02:20:49.159 --> 02:20:56.719 I've heard the Oriental argument that the Fifth Council it 2305 02:20:57.440 --> 02:20:59.079 says that the letter is Orthodox. 2306 02:20:59.200 --> 02:21:00.719 So the Fifth Council. 2307 02:21:01.440 --> 02:21:11.959 Yeah, like a Constantinople too. Oh okay, so that would 2308 02:21:12.000 --> 02:21:13.239 obviously propose an. 2309 02:21:13.120 --> 02:21:17.079 Issue because okay, so the accusation is about Monopstism, not 2310 02:21:17.360 --> 02:21:21.079 Thestorianism I thought you were talking about. I'm getting this 2311 02:21:21.159 --> 02:21:23.200 mixed up with like Theodore of Cyrus and the idea 2312 02:21:23.280 --> 02:21:29.040 that but the idea is that, uh, he was a 2313 02:21:29.079 --> 02:21:32.639 supporter of Cyril, right, mhmm. 2314 02:21:34.879 --> 02:21:35.879 So I'm just. 2315 02:21:36.360 --> 02:21:39.200 Because it's important for me to for you to tell 2316 02:21:39.319 --> 02:21:42.719 me if the letter is Orthodox or not because the letter, 2317 02:21:43.280 --> 02:21:45.840 like it directly attacks Cyril. 2318 02:21:46.000 --> 02:21:51.200 So oh IBus attacks Cyril. Yeah, I haven't read this letter. 2319 02:21:51.239 --> 02:21:52.600 I don't remember, honestly. 2320 02:21:54.079 --> 02:21:54.559 Okay, So. 2321 02:21:56.200 --> 02:21:58.239 Is it okay if I talk to you another time, 2322 02:21:58.920 --> 02:22:03.799 because because I'm not here, you know, to debate or 2323 02:22:03.879 --> 02:22:05.000 to expose you or anything. 2324 02:22:05.079 --> 02:22:10.799 So so wait, so it is about historian stuff. 2325 02:22:12.239 --> 02:22:15.159 Well, no it's not. I'm not accusing you of being 2326 02:22:15.159 --> 02:22:15.639 an historian. 2327 02:22:15.719 --> 02:22:16.959 No, I'm talking about Ibis. 2328 02:22:18.920 --> 02:22:23.520 Well, he clearly identifies Cyril as an office. 2329 02:22:23.959 --> 02:22:31.079 So well, aside from all this, like I can tell 2330 02:22:31.120 --> 02:22:33.680 you what the position on the actual theology is like 2331 02:22:33.760 --> 02:22:34.879 in terms of the Fifth Council? 2332 02:22:36.920 --> 02:22:37.399 Is that do? 2333 02:22:37.559 --> 02:22:39.559 Is that like a would you take issue with that 2334 02:22:39.639 --> 02:22:40.440 or would you agree with that? 2335 02:22:42.959 --> 02:22:46.280 If the formula and the Fifth Council's Orthodox are not. 2336 02:22:47.760 --> 02:22:50.680 Well, I'm saying a lot of a lot of Orientals 2337 02:22:51.440 --> 02:22:53.479 believe that it is. So are you coming from the 2338 02:22:54.120 --> 02:22:56.440 like a Coptic type position or like an Eastern Syrian? 2339 02:22:56.799 --> 02:22:57.920 Yeah, I'm Coptic. 2340 02:22:58.600 --> 02:23:02.319 Okay. So oftentimes you guys agree that the Fifth Council 2341 02:23:02.600 --> 02:23:05.239 is correct, that it's stating the fact that the subject 2342 02:23:05.799 --> 02:23:06.600 is only divine. 2343 02:23:07.760 --> 02:23:10.040 I've heard that, Yes, I've heard this few. 2344 02:23:10.600 --> 02:23:13.520 Yeah, well that's I mean every Orthodox person says that 2345 02:23:13.520 --> 02:23:15.319 if you read Kenneth Wesh's book, if you read the 2346 02:23:15.920 --> 02:23:17.840 Gutkans book, I mean, it's that's what he's saying. 2347 02:23:19.079 --> 02:23:24.000 My my argument was, if you, as an Eastern Orthodox 2348 02:23:24.079 --> 02:23:27.680 hold that all your ecmmenical councils are you know, insoluble. 2349 02:23:29.360 --> 02:23:33.120 A letter of IBus being Orthodox would propose a huge issue. 2350 02:23:37.159 --> 02:23:41.520 I don't have my book, my book which would cover this, 2351 02:23:41.799 --> 02:23:46.159 so I don't know what he says about the IBIS issue. 2352 02:23:46.319 --> 02:23:46.959 I don't remember. 2353 02:23:48.239 --> 02:23:50.159 Yeah, okay, that's fine, but we don't have to talk 2354 02:23:50.200 --> 02:23:52.239 about it if you if you don't have it right now. 2355 02:23:54.479 --> 02:23:56.079 Yeah, I'd have to brush up on this, honest, I 2356 02:23:56.079 --> 02:23:56.479 don't remember. 2357 02:23:58.360 --> 02:23:58.959 Okay, will you? 2358 02:23:59.280 --> 02:24:02.680 Will you in the few sure actually do videos on 2359 02:24:02.840 --> 02:24:03.840 Oriental Orthodox? 2360 02:24:03.879 --> 02:24:06.239 You're not because you you rarely do something. 2361 02:24:08.040 --> 02:24:11.600 I mean, we did plenty of those with David Rhim 2362 02:24:11.799 --> 02:24:13.520 So yeah. 2363 02:24:13.319 --> 02:24:15.239 I've watched his debates with Daniel, but. 2364 02:24:17.719 --> 02:24:21.879 They were mainly on the definitions of hypostasis in all 2365 02:24:22.000 --> 02:24:22.879 these words. 2366 02:24:23.120 --> 02:24:26.959 Right, so at the Fifth at the Fifth Council, they 2367 02:24:27.200 --> 02:24:31.879 stress that hoypostasis refers to the subject, not the incarnated nature. 2368 02:24:32.360 --> 02:24:34.120 And most of the time, most of the time, you 2369 02:24:34.280 --> 02:24:38.319 guys are sticking with what hypostasis meant at the time 2370 02:24:38.360 --> 02:24:42.079 of Nicea, and so after the Cappadocians and Letter thirty 2371 02:24:42.120 --> 02:24:45.840 eight of what's called Letter Basil's Letter thirty eight, hypostasis 2372 02:24:45.920 --> 02:24:48.680 becomes more precisely the subject that has the nature and 2373 02:24:48.760 --> 02:24:53.200 not just the incarnated nature. And that's why you guys 2374 02:24:53.280 --> 02:24:56.239 thought that we're saying, or Calcidon is saying, that there's 2375 02:24:56.280 --> 02:24:59.719 two subjects. So my assumption would be that probably they 2376 02:24:59.760 --> 02:25:02.120 can usion or the debate about this letter would relate 2377 02:25:02.200 --> 02:25:02.639 to that too. 2378 02:25:05.000 --> 02:25:08.840 Well, yeah sure, but I'm my My main point is 2379 02:25:08.920 --> 02:25:11.399 that if Cyril is a saint in your church, he 2380 02:25:11.520 --> 02:25:13.959 can't be attacked in But. 2381 02:25:14.040 --> 02:25:16.760 If the attack is over the confusion as to whether 2382 02:25:17.000 --> 02:25:20.959 hypostasis means an individuated nature or the subject, then that's 2383 02:25:21.000 --> 02:25:22.479 what that's the source of the confusion. 2384 02:25:24.479 --> 02:25:30.200 Yeah, sure, yeah, okay, but yeah, I guess your point. 2385 02:25:31.879 --> 02:25:36.600 It's just that I don't I don't. I don't really 2386 02:25:36.760 --> 02:25:40.600 understand why. For example, I don't understand. 2387 02:25:40.639 --> 02:25:44.239 So according to Orthodox wiki, and this is just like 2388 02:25:44.399 --> 02:25:48.639 the standard Orthodox position. Ibs later reconciled with Cyril. Cyril 2389 02:25:48.680 --> 02:25:51.879 and during the Fourth Council of Calcedon, he anathematized the 2390 02:25:51.959 --> 02:25:54.319 story us both orally and in writing. And so that's 2391 02:25:54.760 --> 02:25:56.680 that's what I thought was the case, but I wasn't 2392 02:25:56.680 --> 02:25:59.280 sure because I didn't remember. But that's what I was 2393 02:25:59.319 --> 02:26:00.879 referring to the getting of this discussion. 2394 02:26:01.719 --> 02:26:05.600 Well, I I fully I agree that the Eastern Orthodox 2395 02:26:05.719 --> 02:26:06.879 Church an athematizes. 2396 02:26:07.399 --> 02:26:09.639 No, it's said IBus. Did you not hear what I said? 2397 02:26:10.399 --> 02:26:14.639 Yeah, I understand that I was an athematizes, as. 2398 02:26:15.319 --> 02:26:17.000 It says, reconciled with Cyril. 2399 02:26:19.479 --> 02:26:23.280 Well, when when Ibis wrote the letters through was already dead. 2400 02:26:23.159 --> 02:26:26.600 Though, I mean, well, I guess this will be the 2401 02:26:26.639 --> 02:26:30.440 point of contention then, because our position is that Ibis 2402 02:26:30.520 --> 02:26:33.479 later reconciled with Cyril, and during the Fourth Council of Calcidon, 2403 02:26:33.879 --> 02:26:36.639 a mathematized and Astorias both early and in writing. The 2404 02:26:36.719 --> 02:26:39.479 fathers of the council then rehabilitated and declared him to 2405 02:26:39.479 --> 02:26:42.040 be Orthodox. So it sounds like you're citing the thing 2406 02:26:42.239 --> 02:26:44.399 that is not taking this into account. 2407 02:26:48.120 --> 02:26:48.319 Yeah. 2408 02:26:48.360 --> 02:26:51.559 But but if your counsels are infallible and they called 2409 02:26:51.680 --> 02:26:55.120 this this letter of accusing Cyril asm and office. 2410 02:26:56.399 --> 02:26:57.600 And where is that? 2411 02:26:58.239 --> 02:26:58.920 Where are you getting that? 2412 02:27:02.559 --> 02:27:06.120 Where do I get that? The letters? 2413 02:27:07.319 --> 02:27:12.280 Well, I just read you Calcidon saying that he anathematizes Cyril. 2414 02:27:15.159 --> 02:27:16.559 Who anathematizes Cyril? 2415 02:27:17.520 --> 02:27:19.760 I mean, excuse me, anathematizing stories, not Cyril. Excuse me? 2416 02:27:20.799 --> 02:27:23.680 Yeah, I agree. Here a mathematizes and stories. That's not 2417 02:27:23.799 --> 02:27:24.200 my point. 2418 02:27:27.120 --> 02:27:29.280 This is what happens then, So you guys, then this 2419 02:27:29.360 --> 02:27:30.840 is what you guys tend to do, which is like 2420 02:27:30.959 --> 02:27:34.840 you hinge on like these really legalistic ideas of like 2421 02:27:35.239 --> 02:27:37.719 the terms like have you read this first and second 2422 02:27:37.799 --> 02:27:39.200 letter to six Census by Cyril? 2423 02:27:40.360 --> 02:27:40.600 Sure? 2424 02:27:41.200 --> 02:27:43.239 Okay? Does he say there's two natures. 2425 02:27:45.280 --> 02:27:46.600 After the union? 2426 02:27:47.440 --> 02:27:49.600 Yeah? Does Cyril say that in the in the first 2427 02:27:49.639 --> 02:27:51.000 and second letters to six Census? 2428 02:27:53.200 --> 02:27:53.559 No? Not? 2429 02:27:53.879 --> 02:27:58.159 Yes he does, Yes, he does. He says there's two natures. 2430 02:27:58.559 --> 02:28:00.440 This is why you guys typically don't like the two 2431 02:28:00.520 --> 02:28:01.399 letters to sucsensus. 2432 02:28:02.639 --> 02:28:05.399 No. If he says there are two natures after the union, 2433 02:28:05.920 --> 02:28:07.559 that would be an issue. He doesn't see that. 2434 02:28:07.760 --> 02:28:09.879 Yes, you doesn't say that that's the point of those letters. 2435 02:28:10.559 --> 02:28:12.079 Why would it? And but why would it be an issue? 2436 02:28:12.079 --> 02:28:13.399 Why would it be an issue to say there's two 2437 02:28:13.440 --> 02:28:14.040 natures after. 2438 02:28:13.920 --> 02:28:17.520 The union, after the union, because that would be him 2439 02:28:17.600 --> 02:28:18.639 contradicting himself. 2440 02:28:19.520 --> 02:28:21.520 Know what, It would be your misunderstanding and would be 2441 02:28:21.600 --> 02:28:22.799 proving that your position is wrong. 2442 02:28:23.920 --> 02:28:27.520 If he uses the words feces to one time only 2443 02:28:27.639 --> 02:28:29.920 once after the union, then he says two after the union, 2444 02:28:29.959 --> 02:28:30.959 that would be contradicted. 2445 02:28:31.399 --> 02:28:34.879 So you so, so you think that the divine nature 2446 02:28:35.079 --> 02:28:36.280 suffered on the cross. 2447 02:28:38.520 --> 02:28:41.680 The twelfth Anathema states the Word of God suffered in depression. 2448 02:28:42.000 --> 02:28:45.239 That's the subject, right, So the divine nature didn't suffer, right? 2449 02:28:46.479 --> 02:28:48.680 Did it undergo? Can it undergo change? 2450 02:28:50.360 --> 02:28:53.399 I don't. I don't use the separation of natures. 2451 02:28:53.840 --> 02:28:57.399 It's not a separation. Distinguishing is not separating. That's that's kind, 2452 02:28:58.399 --> 02:29:01.079 that's kind. Any well then then there's nothing wrong with 2453 02:29:01.159 --> 02:29:06.600 distinguishing even after the union. Sure yeah, sure, Well then 2454 02:29:06.680 --> 02:29:08.079 that just contradicts what you just said. 2455 02:29:09.079 --> 02:29:12.319 No I said, I I don't. I don't say the 2456 02:29:12.440 --> 02:29:13.600 divine nature died. 2457 02:29:13.799 --> 02:29:14.120 I don't. 2458 02:29:14.159 --> 02:29:17.000 I don't persona No I said, didn't undergo any change 2459 02:29:17.239 --> 02:29:20.840 or any alteration in the death. The answer is no, Right, 2460 02:29:22.719 --> 02:29:23.559 we don't. 2461 02:29:23.319 --> 02:29:25.760 Speak of it that way because we only believe in 2462 02:29:25.799 --> 02:29:26.319 one nature. 2463 02:29:28.239 --> 02:29:30.040 So what died on the cross? 2464 02:29:32.319 --> 02:29:34.079 The Word of God. 2465 02:29:34.000 --> 02:29:36.840 Died in his In what way. 2466 02:29:38.520 --> 02:29:40.799 He died? Is soul separated from his? 2467 02:29:40.879 --> 02:29:43.000 Oh, and that's a feature of his human nature? 2468 02:29:43.040 --> 02:29:43.159 Right? 2469 02:29:45.360 --> 02:29:47.319 Well, he only has one nature. 2470 02:29:47.520 --> 02:29:50.760 Now again, so did the did the human nature become 2471 02:29:50.879 --> 02:29:54.239 transformed into the uncreated? So see, you're making the tertim 2472 02:29:54.280 --> 02:29:56.440 quid argument. This is why your hair I'm not saying 2473 02:29:56.559 --> 02:29:58.360 the human this is why your hare to it. But 2474 02:29:58.680 --> 02:30:01.120 then then what you just said is because you said 2475 02:30:01.479 --> 02:30:04.200 his death is the severance of his human soul from 2476 02:30:04.239 --> 02:30:06.479 his human body. Okay, that's not something that's a property 2477 02:30:06.520 --> 02:30:07.239 of the divine nature. 2478 02:30:07.959 --> 02:30:10.559 I didn't say the severance of the human nature. 2479 02:30:10.280 --> 02:30:16.120 From the human No, the human soul from the human body. Sure, okay, 2480 02:30:16.280 --> 02:30:19.239 then the change or alteration or death was what the 2481 02:30:19.280 --> 02:30:21.399 divine subject experienced in his human nature. 2482 02:30:23.280 --> 02:30:23.479 Sure. 2483 02:30:24.159 --> 02:30:26.399 Well, that's the orthodox position that contradicts what you just said. 2484 02:30:26.399 --> 02:30:27.680 A minute ago. You said there's one nature. 2485 02:30:29.479 --> 02:30:32.760 Yeah, we believe in one. Composite nature includes both natures. 2486 02:30:32.840 --> 02:30:37.360 So a composite nature means that then there's still two. 2487 02:30:37.600 --> 02:30:40.000 If you say it's composite and that the human nature 2488 02:30:40.040 --> 02:30:44.639 experiences that severance, then then he retains what's proper to 2489 02:30:44.719 --> 02:30:47.159 those two natures, even after the union. That was the 2490 02:30:47.200 --> 02:30:49.239 whole point of two six zerials, two letters to his 2491 02:30:49.239 --> 02:30:52.440 sixth census. He says, even after the union, he still 2492 02:30:52.559 --> 02:30:55.319 retains those properties to the things that are proper to 2493 02:30:55.399 --> 02:30:55.959 those natures. 2494 02:30:59.280 --> 02:31:01.760 No, I'm I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. 2495 02:31:03.799 --> 02:31:08.600 In the Death of Christ, do you distinguish nature in person? 2496 02:31:10.920 --> 02:31:16.200 Nature and person? Sure? Okay, do you because I don't 2497 02:31:16.239 --> 02:31:17.000 really understand? 2498 02:31:17.680 --> 02:31:20.200 So this is okay. So the whole debate, which is 2499 02:31:20.239 --> 02:31:23.040 about nature in person? You say, now you don't understand that. 2500 02:31:24.440 --> 02:31:26.959 No, I'm not saying I don't understand what I'm saying. 2501 02:31:27.079 --> 02:31:31.360 I don't understand what you mean by differentiating the nature 2502 02:31:31.399 --> 02:31:31.799 in person. 2503 02:31:32.280 --> 02:31:33.920 How do you do the trinity if you don't distinguish 2504 02:31:34.000 --> 02:31:34.600 nature in person? 2505 02:31:36.280 --> 02:31:36.399 Oh? 2506 02:31:36.440 --> 02:31:36.719 Okay? 2507 02:31:36.879 --> 02:31:39.520 So yeah, I don't believe that Jesus has the same 2508 02:31:39.600 --> 02:31:44.920 nature as the Father. What are you now? 2509 02:31:44.959 --> 02:31:49.559 You're an area? He doesn't have the same divinity as 2510 02:31:49.600 --> 02:31:49.920 the Father. 2511 02:31:50.799 --> 02:31:52.559 No, he has the same essence as the Father and 2512 02:31:52.680 --> 02:31:53.479 not the same nature. 2513 02:31:54.319 --> 02:31:57.280 What's how is nature distinguished from essence? They mean the 2514 02:31:57.319 --> 02:32:00.799 same thing in the Patristic teaching. No, we don't believe 2515 02:32:00.840 --> 02:32:04.559 that this is your whole religion is confused and constantly 2516 02:32:05.079 --> 02:32:08.079 just contradicting over stupid terms. What matters is the meaning 2517 02:32:08.120 --> 02:32:10.879 of the terms. So is there a distinction in nature 2518 02:32:10.920 --> 02:32:11.879 in person? In the trinity? 2519 02:32:15.559 --> 02:32:18.600 We don't believe that the nature of Jesus right now 2520 02:32:18.719 --> 02:32:19.920 is the same nature as the Father. 2521 02:32:20.319 --> 02:32:22.319 Oh, then he didn't save anybody, and then you're a 2522 02:32:22.360 --> 02:32:25.639 stupid heretic. Exactly like I said from the beginning, How 2523 02:32:26.079 --> 02:32:27.959 does he reconcile us to God if he's not both 2524 02:32:28.000 --> 02:32:31.440 God and man? He is fully okay, But you just 2525 02:32:31.440 --> 02:32:33.000 said he doesn't have the same nature as the. 2526 02:32:33.000 --> 02:32:37.280 Father because we believe that the union. 2527 02:32:38.520 --> 02:32:41.200 So that's a tersham quid argument. So he doesn't save anybody. 2528 02:32:41.440 --> 02:32:43.559 He's a third thing and he's not like anybody else. 2529 02:32:43.600 --> 02:32:45.559 You just said he's not like the Father, then he's 2530 02:32:45.600 --> 02:32:48.319 also not like us, so he's a tersham quid. You're 2531 02:32:48.360 --> 02:32:51.120 not aware of the constant common critique of your position. 2532 02:32:53.239 --> 02:32:54.680 No, I understand what you mean. 2533 02:32:54.719 --> 02:32:57.559 I'm just how do you answer the tertiam quid critique? Then, 2534 02:32:57.639 --> 02:33:01.719 since you know about it, I know about it. You 2535 02:33:01.840 --> 02:33:05.159 just said, all right, you're a liar. You just said 2536 02:33:05.200 --> 02:33:06.600 you do. You just said you know about it? 2537 02:33:06.639 --> 02:33:07.079 What do you mean? 2538 02:33:07.639 --> 02:33:08.479 No, I didn't tell you. 2539 02:33:08.600 --> 02:33:12.200 I completely told you that. I don't understand what you 2540 02:33:12.239 --> 02:33:14.719 mean by differentiating the nature at I don't know what 2541 02:33:14.840 --> 02:33:15.920 you're getting it, because. 2542 02:33:16.200 --> 02:33:18.520 How does he reconcile God and man if he's not 2543 02:33:18.799 --> 02:33:20.760 like the do you think so? It sounds like you 2544 02:33:20.840 --> 02:33:23.360 think nature is person. What we think person is? You 2545 02:33:23.399 --> 02:33:24.719 think nature is? Is that what's going on? 2546 02:33:24.879 --> 02:33:27.920 Don't I don't understand that. I don't think that nature. 2547 02:33:27.680 --> 02:33:31.440 Is First, Oh God, then how is how is he? 2548 02:33:31.840 --> 02:33:33.879 How does he reconciles to the Father If he doesn't 2549 02:33:33.920 --> 02:33:37.159 have the nature of the Father, he has of the Father? 2550 02:33:37.319 --> 02:33:39.000 You just said he doesn't have the nature of the Father? 2551 02:33:39.079 --> 02:33:40.520 Oh my God, I said he has. 2552 02:33:40.600 --> 02:33:45.200 But it's not that You're a confused quack. Get out 2553 02:33:45.239 --> 02:33:48.399 of here. I can't take this anymore. This is what 2554 02:33:48.479 --> 02:33:51.280 you people do. You you wander chasing your own tails 2555 02:33:51.280 --> 02:33:52.360 in your stupid confusion. 2556 02:33:55.319 --> 02:33:55.799 No, it is that. 2557 02:33:56.200 --> 02:33:58.319 It is that it is now. 2558 02:33:58.440 --> 02:34:01.280 You came here with God, which when I read you 2559 02:34:01.360 --> 02:34:04.239 our position refuted your gotcha. And then when I start 2560 02:34:04.280 --> 02:34:06.920 asking you about what you actually believe, you have no 2561 02:34:07.000 --> 02:34:10.200 idea what you actually believe. In your continued I did 2562 02:34:10.360 --> 02:34:16.479 because you're an idiot. Hello, everyone heard you contradict yourself 2563 02:34:16.520 --> 02:34:21.719 as we actually got into the issues. Hey do you 2564 02:34:21.799 --> 02:34:22.040 hear me? 2565 02:34:22.040 --> 02:34:22.360 All right? 2566 02:34:22.680 --> 02:34:27.280 Yeah, all right, So a orthodox I just wanted to 2567 02:34:28.120 --> 02:34:32.440 comment on add something for the Holy Spirit texts in 2568 02:34:32.479 --> 02:34:36.440 the Old Testament because that was relevant to a bit 2569 02:34:36.520 --> 02:34:42.040 ago so there's a very clear one in second Savil 2570 02:34:42.760 --> 02:34:45.000 twenty three. This is, by the way, all from sam 2571 02:34:45.120 --> 02:34:47.760 chamoun I Binge watched his lectures in the Old Testament, 2572 02:34:48.799 --> 02:34:52.920 so this records David's last words. So it goes, I'll 2573 02:34:52.959 --> 02:34:56.520 read from one to three. Now these are the last 2574 02:34:56.559 --> 02:34:57.239 words of David. 2575 02:34:57.479 --> 02:34:59.959 That says David is Jesse. That says, the man. 2576 02:35:00.079 --> 02:35:02.799 Raised up on high, the annointed of the God of Jacob, 2577 02:35:02.920 --> 02:35:05.840 and the sweet saw mister Israel. Verse two, the Spirit 2578 02:35:06.040 --> 02:35:08.559 of the Lord spoke by me, and his word was 2579 02:35:08.639 --> 02:35:11.760 on my tongue. And then notice verse three, the God 2580 02:35:11.959 --> 02:35:14.559 of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me. 2581 02:35:14.799 --> 02:35:17.280 He who rules over men must be just realized. 2582 02:35:17.440 --> 02:35:20.440 So the Holy Spirit is the God of Israel, correct exactly. 2583 02:35:21.120 --> 02:35:24.600 And then there's a very nice passage. 2584 02:35:24.600 --> 02:35:25.360 I love it so much. 2585 02:35:25.639 --> 02:35:30.000 In Isaiah sixty three. There's nine to ten which mentions 2586 02:35:30.120 --> 02:35:34.200 the Holy Trinity correct saying in all the affliction he 2587 02:35:34.319 --> 02:35:39.200 was afflicted, and the Angel of his Presence, the Angel 2588 02:35:39.239 --> 02:35:42.600 of the Father, the Angel of the Lord, and the 2589 02:35:42.639 --> 02:35:44.719 Angel of his Presence saved them in his love and 2590 02:35:44.799 --> 02:35:47.079 his pity. He redeemed them, and he bore them and 2591 02:35:47.159 --> 02:35:49.319 carried them all the days of old verse ten. But 2592 02:35:49.440 --> 02:35:52.719 they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned 2593 02:35:52.760 --> 02:35:54.959 himself against them as an enemy, and he fought against them. 2594 02:35:55.319 --> 02:35:59.280 So mentioning the Holy Spirit here it says grieved his 2595 02:35:59.399 --> 02:36:04.200 Holy Spirit. It basically an active force or an impersonal 2596 02:36:04.280 --> 02:36:05.680 object cannot be grieved. 2597 02:36:06.040 --> 02:36:09.200 So this person had. And then just a few verses 2598 02:36:09.280 --> 02:36:12.319 later verse fourteen. Yes, very interesting. 2599 02:36:12.840 --> 02:36:15.360 So as a peace goes down into the valley and 2600 02:36:15.559 --> 02:36:17.799 the spirit of the Lord causes him to rest, So 2601 02:36:17.920 --> 02:36:20.440 you lead your people, you make yourself a glorious name. 2602 02:36:21.000 --> 02:36:24.239 What's good to point out here is it says the 2603 02:36:24.319 --> 02:36:29.479 spirit of the Lord causes him to rest. The Hebrew 2604 02:36:29.600 --> 02:36:33.399 word there is Nuah, and the same word as an 2605 02:36:33.479 --> 02:36:38.680 excess thirty three fourteen, where God's where God says, and 2606 02:36:38.840 --> 02:36:42.520 he said, rather, Moses, I suppose, But and he said, 2607 02:36:43.040 --> 02:36:46.079 my presence will go with you, and I will give 2608 02:36:46.120 --> 02:36:48.719 you rest. The same word that is attributed to God 2609 02:36:48.879 --> 02:36:52.479 in excesses thirty three fourteen is used of the Holy 2610 02:36:52.559 --> 02:36:54.520 Spirit in Isaiah Sics three fourteen. 2611 02:36:56.600 --> 02:37:00.200 Yes, great points, thank you. Yeah. My list was not 2612 02:37:00.760 --> 02:37:03.600 in any way supposed to be comprehensive. I had only 2613 02:37:03.719 --> 02:37:11.200 worked up through the Torah judges and a little bit 2614 02:37:11.280 --> 02:37:13.479 of the Psalms, and so I had not yet gotten 2615 02:37:13.520 --> 02:37:15.920 to there's many in Isaiah. Thank you for that one. 2616 02:37:16.200 --> 02:37:21.600 And Samuel, there's a few in the minor profits, a 2617 02:37:21.719 --> 02:37:23.959 couple in job that I mentioned, But yeah, there's more 2618 02:37:24.159 --> 02:37:25.959 to be had. I just haven't even gotten to them all. 2619 02:37:26.000 --> 02:37:29.159 But thank you for that. Appreciate that, right. Okay, So 2620 02:37:29.479 --> 02:37:31.520 to the people in the chat talking smack again, I 2621 02:37:31.600 --> 02:37:39.079 keep putting the link there for you. So what do 2622 02:37:39.159 --> 02:37:42.040 you mean? Sam does have an X. Sam Shimun is 2623 02:37:42.079 --> 02:37:46.040 on Twitter. He wants to have a round table, So 2624 02:37:46.079 --> 02:37:49.040 I don't know why you're trying to get provoke him 2625 02:37:49.040 --> 02:37:50.520 into debating. I don't care if he wants to come 2626 02:37:50.520 --> 02:37:53.479 here and ask questions. He's welcome to anybody on X 2627 02:37:53.520 --> 02:38:00.840 can pop in here. I don't care. But we're looking 2628 02:38:00.879 --> 02:38:08.840 for people who disagree today review. So if you disagree, 2629 02:38:09.200 --> 02:38:10.559 raise your hand, you come to the head of line. 2630 02:38:11.120 --> 02:38:12.760 Every time we do this, we get a million Orthodox 2631 02:38:12.799 --> 02:38:14.440 people and acquire some cate of cumens who want to 2632 02:38:14.440 --> 02:38:16.920 ask a bunch of questions. And what we're looking for 2633 02:38:17.079 --> 02:38:19.559 is people who disagree want to debate. The topics are 2634 02:38:20.520 --> 02:38:24.440 listed in the top of the stream is the pope, 2635 02:38:24.479 --> 02:38:30.760 heretic Islam, Protestantism, Gnosticism, Hebrew roots. You can also bring 2636 02:38:30.879 --> 02:38:38.959 up the Qur'an, Calvinism, etc. We just spent freaking thirty 2637 02:38:39.000 --> 02:38:44.760 minutes with a Coptic person who literally contradict himself like 2638 02:38:44.799 --> 02:38:47.559 five times and said he's not and it was a 2639 02:38:47.600 --> 02:38:53.520 big nightmare. Review Dickers, that doesn't your connection isn't working. 2640 02:38:55.600 --> 02:39:07.600 Countish Options, what's up? Mm hmm. You gotta unmute, man, 2641 02:39:12.000 --> 02:39:12.760 you have to unmute. 2642 02:39:17.280 --> 02:39:18.920 Yeah, sty. 2643 02:39:20.959 --> 02:39:21.399 Listening to. 2644 02:39:23.920 --> 02:39:24.959 What's wanting a lot. 2645 02:39:27.399 --> 02:39:28.799 What I felt? 2646 02:39:30.120 --> 02:39:33.280 I can't You're you're your accident is so thiate bro. 2647 02:39:33.360 --> 02:39:36.079 I can't understand half of what you're saying. Man, Beacon, 2648 02:39:36.159 --> 02:39:39.639 what's up? Didn't we already go to you? We're looking 2649 02:39:39.639 --> 02:39:41.799 for people disagree, so please don't ask me a bunch 2650 02:39:41.840 --> 02:39:47.000 of inquirer questions like acquirers. You guys can't be lazy. 2651 02:39:47.079 --> 02:39:48.799 You gotta go and read the books and do the 2652 02:39:49.239 --> 02:39:54.479 do the research. It's Stephen Cook five dollars. I always 2653 02:39:54.559 --> 02:39:57.120 enjoyed reading the Cabernet savignan On translation. It is the 2654 02:39:57.840 --> 02:40:02.239 most readable and accessible translation. Snago Beasts five dollars. One 2655 02:40:02.239 --> 02:40:04.200 of the things that easy forgets the demons and angels. 2656 02:40:04.959 --> 02:40:07.879 They aren't created in the metaphysic of time, correct, They're 2657 02:40:08.120 --> 02:40:11.479 in the aon So their choice was in an instant 2658 02:40:12.520 --> 02:40:16.079 and that's why they're not given multiple chances. They do 2659 02:40:16.239 --> 02:40:18.239 not have a nature that varies from day to day. 2660 02:40:18.319 --> 02:40:34.239 As man can go ahead, Are you there, shaba Ranks? 2661 02:40:34.360 --> 02:40:36.120 We got a roster man in the chat. What's up? 2662 02:40:38.719 --> 02:40:40.120 Shaba rank and file? What's up? 2663 02:40:42.520 --> 02:40:42.920 Yo? Yo? 2664 02:40:44.520 --> 02:40:46.680 Probably don't have too much to debate with you with 2665 02:40:46.879 --> 02:40:50.600 although I was talking to a Roman Catholic today and 2666 02:40:50.680 --> 02:40:54.239 they mentioned how because I was making the argument with 2667 02:40:54.360 --> 02:40:57.559 him about how and you bring this up as well, 2668 02:40:57.920 --> 02:41:01.639 how the Pope says that we can. 2669 02:41:01.559 --> 02:41:03.559 Pray alongside Muslims and Jews. 2670 02:41:03.639 --> 02:41:07.120 And he tried to argue that, well, the Russian Orthodox 2671 02:41:07.280 --> 02:41:09.280 is doing the same thing by you know, trying to 2672 02:41:09.360 --> 02:41:09.840 set up a. 2673 02:41:11.360 --> 02:41:14.639 You know, a shared space for like a church or 2674 02:41:14.760 --> 02:41:15.719 templar or whatever. 2675 02:41:15.520 --> 02:41:16.639 It is in Russia. 2676 02:41:18.159 --> 02:41:22.479 Would you be interested in, like, I guess, given your 2677 02:41:22.559 --> 02:41:25.280 argument for that, I am inquiring an Orthodoxy and I 2678 02:41:25.360 --> 02:41:26.360 think it is different. 2679 02:41:26.520 --> 02:41:28.360 But what would like you respond to that? 2680 02:41:28.520 --> 02:41:31.360 Well, even if it's not different, like a patriarch being 2681 02:41:31.399 --> 02:41:34.079 a hairtic is not the equivalent of what Vatican one 2682 02:41:34.159 --> 02:41:36.399 says about the pope and the impossibility of the pope 2683 02:41:36.399 --> 02:41:36.959 being a hairtic. 2684 02:41:38.280 --> 02:41:40.120 Okay, all right, thank you sir. 2685 02:41:40.399 --> 02:41:45.319 Yeah, I mean I appreciate that. I mean, again, as 2686 02:41:45.360 --> 02:41:48.200 we said the first hour of this talk, it's two 2687 02:41:48.239 --> 02:42:01.840 different systems. Man in the chemo hat. They I mean, 2688 02:42:02.280 --> 02:42:10.000 they just literally can't understand a system defeater. I think 2689 02:42:10.040 --> 02:42:12.280 I I just realized why they don't understand that. They 2690 02:42:12.319 --> 02:42:15.159 don't understand why that's a system defeater because they don't 2691 02:42:15.200 --> 02:42:17.120 know what Vatican one actually says about the pope. That's 2692 02:42:17.159 --> 02:42:20.639 why they don't. They don't understand this. That's I think 2693 02:42:20.680 --> 02:42:23.399 that's finally dawned on me. What's up man? 2694 02:42:25.680 --> 02:42:26.600 Oh can you hear me? 2695 02:42:28.479 --> 02:42:31.360 Yes? So to the guy in the chat, Christopher Augustin, 2696 02:42:31.559 --> 02:42:34.399 unblocked me and I will join. I need to know 2697 02:42:34.440 --> 02:42:36.280 you're handled. Unblock you. I don't know. I have like 2698 02:42:36.399 --> 02:42:38.559 a thousand people blocked. Dude, I know idea who you are? 2699 02:42:39.520 --> 02:42:42.200 What's up? Yeah? 2700 02:42:43.040 --> 02:42:44.799 So I was wondering, have you heard of a guy 2701 02:42:44.920 --> 02:42:48.040 named Grayson Brock I think he is on YouTube? 2702 02:42:48.399 --> 02:42:48.440 No? 2703 02:42:50.200 --> 02:42:55.680 Uh, yeah, he's a he's a Protestant guy who is 2704 02:42:55.760 --> 02:42:56.600 a universalist. 2705 02:42:56.639 --> 02:42:59.520 I guess you could say like he he claims he 2706 02:42:59.639 --> 02:43:02.520 read the Bible in one day, the Quran in one day. 2707 02:43:02.680 --> 02:43:04.959 And like a bunch of other religious books in one days. 2708 02:43:05.000 --> 02:43:07.479 And he's like, he's like, well you after I read 2709 02:43:07.520 --> 02:43:09.120 all these books, what do you Okay? 2710 02:43:09.280 --> 02:43:13.200 So he's just a retard. No, don't have time for retards. Sorry, 2711 02:43:13.959 --> 02:43:16.120 sell By, you didn't read all those books on one day. 2712 02:43:17.440 --> 02:43:30.319 Sell Biology. What's your handling? Unblock you? Dude? Aug twenty eighteen. Okay, 2713 02:43:30.719 --> 02:43:41.840 what's up? Man? Got on mute? Hello? You got on mute? 2714 02:43:53.120 --> 02:43:53.239 Uh? 2715 02:43:53.559 --> 02:43:56.760 Tradcat traditional Latin mass enjoy or and he's sharing Pope 2716 02:43:56.760 --> 02:44:06.719 Benedict Bishopstright when, oh, all right, you're on muted or 2717 02:44:06.799 --> 02:44:16.959 you're unblocked whatever your name is, Augie or whatever, Leith, 2718 02:44:23.920 --> 02:44:28.399 you're unblocked, dude Leth, I mean Augie Leith? What's up? 2719 02:44:30.879 --> 02:44:31.440 What's up there? 2720 02:44:33.959 --> 02:44:35.799 I just I wanted to see if you could, uh 2721 02:44:36.079 --> 02:44:42.239 like clarify your contention with the like metaphysics in Islam. Okay, 2722 02:44:44.200 --> 02:44:46.680 So from how I like see it and from how 2723 02:44:46.879 --> 02:44:47.920 like I've debated it. 2724 02:44:48.639 --> 02:44:53.040 Would it be that the essence is dependent on the 2725 02:44:53.159 --> 02:44:56.879 attributes to define it, and that if they're eternal and 2726 02:44:57.040 --> 02:45:01.360 uncreated alongside the essence, then that's why a dependence relationship. 2727 02:45:02.159 --> 02:45:04.440 Well, that dependence relationship has to do with when they 2728 02:45:04.559 --> 02:45:08.879 say that if the son and the spirit lack a sayety, 2729 02:45:09.040 --> 02:45:11.920 they can't be fully divine because the divinity must have 2730 02:45:14.200 --> 02:45:18.079 a sayity to be divine. And we make the same critique, 2731 02:45:18.120 --> 02:45:21.079 then well, don't you think that the attributes are fully 2732 02:45:21.079 --> 02:45:25.239 Allah even if they're not identical to Allah's essence and 2733 02:45:25.440 --> 02:45:27.559 they are other than Allah. So they have the same 2734 02:45:27.639 --> 02:45:32.280 type of dependence relationship when we talk about the son 2735 02:45:32.360 --> 02:45:35.959 being dependent on the father, that the attributes are dependent 2736 02:45:36.079 --> 02:45:38.760 upon a lot. And so hence the critique and the 2737 02:45:39.280 --> 02:45:43.719 only school that wouldn't work against like a Shia position 2738 02:45:43.799 --> 02:45:45.719 where they don't think there's a real distinction between all 2739 02:45:45.760 --> 02:45:46.479 of his attributes. 2740 02:45:47.600 --> 02:45:48.920 Okay, that makes sense. 2741 02:45:49.840 --> 02:45:51.920 Yeah, if you watch the if you watch the debate 2742 02:45:52.000 --> 02:45:54.680 between Jake and doctor bo Branson, the whole debate ends 2743 02:45:54.680 --> 02:45:55.479 of being that question. 2744 02:45:56.559 --> 02:45:57.639 Okay, sounds good. 2745 02:45:57.840 --> 02:46:05.360 Yeah, it's a really good debate too. By the way, Augie, 2746 02:46:05.440 --> 02:46:07.079 where are you? I thought you were coming to debate? 2747 02:46:18.040 --> 02:46:20.799 If he doesn't come to Bate. Just ban him. These 2748 02:46:20.840 --> 02:46:33.159 people are disgusting magic Mike, Yeah, God, Yeah. 2749 02:46:33.159 --> 02:46:36.600 I don't know what happened earlier. I just maybe got disconnected, 2750 02:46:37.040 --> 02:46:38.760 but it was a good talk with you. 2751 02:46:38.920 --> 02:46:39.440 Thank you for that. 2752 02:46:39.840 --> 02:46:40.639 I wanted to ask you. 2753 02:46:40.799 --> 02:46:42.040 I don't know what were you. I don't remember what 2754 02:46:42.079 --> 02:46:42.680 we're talking about. 2755 02:46:44.639 --> 02:46:48.120 It was like about God and the Trinity and Jesus Christ, 2756 02:46:48.200 --> 02:46:49.440 and so I. 2757 02:46:49.520 --> 02:46:52.719 Wanted to ask you something, right, so for example in yogi, 2758 02:46:52.760 --> 02:46:57.200 because I'm studying the Bible too, but I didn't Evangelical university. 2759 02:46:57.319 --> 02:47:00.559 So now you're getting on my nerves. I'm ready to 2760 02:47:00.600 --> 02:47:08.959 move on every What's up? Everything I said? You blew 2761 02:47:09.040 --> 02:47:24.639 past what I said, So that's annoying. Where's Algie? I mean, 2762 02:47:24.680 --> 02:47:29.040 he's sitting here saying he's gonna come to Bait. I'm 2763 02:47:29.120 --> 02:47:33.120 even gonna link him the freaking chat here he is, 2764 02:47:41.879 --> 02:47:44.639 Oh yep, hey Jay. 2765 02:47:44.799 --> 02:47:46.879 Actually, I don't know if you remember this, but the 2766 02:47:47.120 --> 02:47:49.680 stream where pinesapp kind of went a wall. 2767 02:47:50.200 --> 02:47:52.479 You and I actually talked for like forty five minutes. 2768 02:47:52.559 --> 02:47:54.079 I had to make an old account. I don't know 2769 02:47:54.079 --> 02:47:55.559 why he had to be blocked one here because we 2770 02:47:55.600 --> 02:47:57.399 didn't actually interact at all. 2771 02:47:58.520 --> 02:48:00.520 Uh, well, I probably black people talk a lot of 2772 02:48:00.520 --> 02:48:02.760 shit and other comments and places, so you probably like 2773 02:48:02.879 --> 02:48:06.559 some skittles gay crap that I blocked skittles gay. I'm 2774 02:48:06.559 --> 02:48:08.600 not on board with skittles, definitely not on Now I'm 2775 02:48:08.600 --> 02:48:11.360 saying the positions that you liked were gay. 2776 02:48:13.000 --> 02:48:16.079 I see, Okay, Well, I definitely. 2777 02:48:16.120 --> 02:48:18.040 I also wanted to say I didn't have a chance 2778 02:48:18.120 --> 02:48:19.719 last time, but I wanted to say I got a 2779 02:48:19.760 --> 02:48:20.520 bone to pick about this. 2780 02:48:20.559 --> 02:48:23.079 Whole funko pop song. Do you know how long that 2781 02:48:23.239 --> 02:48:24.000 was stuck in my head? 2782 02:48:25.000 --> 02:48:27.600 Oh that's that's what I do. I fight back in 2783 02:48:27.680 --> 02:48:31.000 a lot of different ways with you guys. And then, well, I. 2784 02:48:31.000 --> 02:48:33.840 Don't know that I have to do with with us. Actually, 2785 02:48:34.040 --> 02:48:35.159 maybe I missed the point. 2786 02:48:35.239 --> 02:48:37.440 Then, Yeah, you guys are the funko pop. You track 2787 02:48:37.520 --> 02:48:39.920 cats are literally my embodiment of the funk Now, I'm 2788 02:48:39.920 --> 02:48:41.319 just joking, man, doesn't have to do with you. 2789 02:48:42.799 --> 02:48:45.079 I really missed that. 2790 02:48:45.239 --> 02:48:45.399 Then. 2791 02:48:46.079 --> 02:48:48.840 But last time we did talk about national theology. 2792 02:48:50.079 --> 02:48:52.719 We talked about that for a good while, and uh, 2793 02:48:53.399 --> 02:48:56.840 I remember when we were talking about that. You know, 2794 02:48:56.959 --> 02:49:01.360 you were running through the argumentation that clearly, Paul, he's 2795 02:49:01.440 --> 02:49:03.079 not talking to these people. 2796 02:49:04.600 --> 02:49:06.520 Like deep philosophy, and that's what we. 2797 02:49:06.600 --> 02:49:10.719 Were talking about. Acts seventeen. I kind of remember this, correct, correct, And. 2798 02:49:12.239 --> 02:49:14.280 Now after we talked, I did go back and I 2799 02:49:14.360 --> 02:49:18.079 looked at it, and it does mention that the philosophers 2800 02:49:18.159 --> 02:49:21.479 were talking to Paul and they were saying like, oh, 2801 02:49:21.760 --> 02:49:24.680 this is uh, this doctrine that you're teaching is completely 2802 02:49:24.719 --> 02:49:28.040 different from us, is completely unknown to us. And that's 2803 02:49:28.079 --> 02:49:31.840 the part that's immediately proceeding when Paul says, oh, you 2804 02:49:32.000 --> 02:49:34.200 men of Athens, I see that you are in all things, 2805 02:49:34.280 --> 02:49:37.360 very religious, et cetera, et cetera. So I was wondering, 2806 02:49:38.000 --> 02:49:41.680 so you said before, you didn't think that he was 2807 02:49:41.879 --> 02:49:44.040 talking about this one like a natural philosophy level. But 2808 02:49:44.840 --> 02:49:47.440 don't you think that him debating with the philosophers, don't 2809 02:49:47.440 --> 02:49:49.360 you think that that kind of points to that? 2810 02:49:49.600 --> 02:49:50.920 Or what's your potential? 2811 02:49:51.120 --> 02:49:54.120 I mean, I mean, what what do you guys think? 2812 02:49:54.159 --> 02:49:56.959 What do you think natural theology is? And by the way, 2813 02:49:56.959 --> 02:49:58.959 you're saying natural philosophy, I don't know if that means 2814 02:49:59.000 --> 02:50:01.639 the same thing as what you believe is that I'm 2815 02:50:01.760 --> 02:50:04.399 not natural theologect What do you believe that is in 2816 02:50:04.520 --> 02:50:05.040 your tradition. 2817 02:50:06.520 --> 02:50:09.399 Well, as far as my understanding, and by new means 2818 02:50:10.479 --> 02:50:13.000 an expert, but as far as I've understood, it's that 2819 02:50:14.040 --> 02:50:17.440 we can that there's certain things that we can know 2820 02:50:17.600 --> 02:50:19.879 through reason alone, apart from revelation about God. 2821 02:50:20.399 --> 02:50:23.239 Yeah. Correct, that's the that's your definition of it, correct, 2822 02:50:23.239 --> 02:50:27.040 that's the John Paul used that definition. Protestants use that 2823 02:50:27.200 --> 02:50:29.280 so correct. Just make sure we mean the same thing. 2824 02:50:29.959 --> 02:50:34.440 Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry I spoke earlier, but yeah. So 2825 02:50:34.680 --> 02:50:39.200 I think that him talking with the people, the philosophers 2826 02:50:39.239 --> 02:50:42.760 of Athens, and then immediately following that, obviously it's you 2827 02:50:42.840 --> 02:50:43.559 know whoever. 2828 02:50:44.840 --> 02:50:47.440 It's it's a luke I believe who compiled acts. Correct, 2829 02:50:48.319 --> 02:50:51.959 So he's telling the story. Uh, And I think that 2830 02:50:52.159 --> 02:50:56.680 the fact that that that narrative is following in such 2831 02:50:56.680 --> 02:50:56.879 a way. 2832 02:50:56.879 --> 02:50:59.840 He's talking with the philosophers of Athens and then he's 2833 02:50:59.840 --> 02:51:02.360 in immediately saying, are you men of Athens? I see 2834 02:51:02.399 --> 02:51:05.840 that you are all, in all things, very religious, don't 2835 02:51:05.959 --> 02:51:07.159 I mean, do you see the connection there? 2836 02:51:07.200 --> 02:51:08.920 I'm wondering what your tagees. 2837 02:51:10.719 --> 02:51:12.920 Yeah, but I mean my point has always been on 2838 02:51:13.000 --> 02:51:16.879 this passage that he says, the one whom you worship 2839 02:51:16.959 --> 02:51:19.200 without knowing is the one I proclaimed to you. And 2840 02:51:19.600 --> 02:51:22.079 the whole argument of natural theology is that, well, they 2841 02:51:22.120 --> 02:51:26.239 do know him because they've reason to get attributes about God. Correct, 2842 02:51:26.920 --> 02:51:29.600 But he says you don't know him. He's the unknown God, 2843 02:51:30.479 --> 02:51:31.319 so they don't know him. 2844 02:51:33.719 --> 02:51:35.479 I mean, he says what you worship in error and then. 2845 02:51:38.159 --> 02:51:41.760 Errorlaim it says what you worship without knowing. I proclaim 2846 02:51:41.840 --> 02:51:42.959 to you the unknown God. 2847 02:51:43.760 --> 02:51:46.520 So is it not worshiping or I means it seems 2848 02:51:46.680 --> 02:51:48.559 I'm not trying to be like, uh, you know, I 2849 02:51:48.639 --> 02:51:49.079 guess they were. 2850 02:51:49.159 --> 02:51:51.200 Actually that I say, it says worship. 2851 02:51:51.399 --> 02:51:53.520 It seems to me that that that is important, you 2852 02:51:53.600 --> 02:51:54.000 know what I mean? 2853 02:51:54.120 --> 02:51:57.280 Okay, So if I worship a stick and I think 2854 02:51:57.399 --> 02:51:59.639 that stick is the one God? Am I worshiping the 2855 02:51:59.680 --> 02:52:01.600 same as you as a Catholic because you believe in 2856 02:52:01.680 --> 02:52:04.239 one God too, I. 2857 02:52:04.239 --> 02:52:07.360 Wouldn't say, well it I think that when you're talking 2858 02:52:07.360 --> 02:52:09.559 about idols and you're talking about it, you know it's 2859 02:52:09.719 --> 02:52:11.520 the creator according. 2860 02:52:11.159 --> 02:52:15.399 To Do you not know that this is an idol 2861 02:52:15.479 --> 02:52:17.840 where they have an altar to the unknown God. This 2862 02:52:18.040 --> 02:52:19.120 is exactly what you just said. 2863 02:52:20.079 --> 02:52:22.719 Yeah, So the way I've understood that is that they're 2864 02:52:22.719 --> 02:52:24.959 actually so it's a temple, but there's no idol to 2865 02:52:25.120 --> 02:52:27.360 the god because it's to an unknown. 2866 02:52:27.040 --> 02:52:30.719 No, that's totally false, he says later, that you attribute 2867 02:52:31.040 --> 02:52:35.760 to the divine nature an idol, a created idle image. 2868 02:52:35.799 --> 02:52:37.120 He says it in verse twenty nine. 2869 02:52:40.280 --> 02:52:42.799 Why I didn't necessarily take it that it was talking 2870 02:52:42.840 --> 02:52:45.000 about a specific idol in that temple. I thought that 2871 02:52:45.120 --> 02:52:47.079 was more of a generic So you people in general, 2872 02:52:47.200 --> 02:52:48.840 you do these things in your worship. 2873 02:52:49.120 --> 02:52:53.239 Therefore, here we go with the typical casuistri. Right, So 2874 02:52:54.280 --> 02:52:56.920 Paul is again saying, you're in you're all under the 2875 02:52:56.959 --> 02:52:59.280 class of people who attribute to the divine nature of 2876 02:52:59.360 --> 02:53:02.520 being a created datus. So, no, they're not. They're not 2877 02:53:02.719 --> 02:53:06.200 unique idolators who think that this God cannot be imaged 2878 02:53:06.760 --> 02:53:09.360 because the altar is an inscription to the unknown God. 2879 02:53:09.479 --> 02:53:11.680 And he accuses them of being idol The whole point 2880 02:53:11.680 --> 02:53:15.120 of the passages is their idolators. They're not. They're not 2881 02:53:15.239 --> 02:53:17.959 pagan non idolators here, which is what you're trying to say. 2882 02:53:18.920 --> 02:53:20.719 Well, I would just say, even in the case of 2883 02:53:20.760 --> 02:53:23.040 this stick, I would say that obviously the stick isn't God. 2884 02:53:23.120 --> 02:53:26.319 But they're they're just applying divine attributes to the sticks, 2885 02:53:26.319 --> 02:53:27.639 and they're correct by the divine mutes. 2886 02:53:27.719 --> 02:53:30.879 No they're not. No, that's a flat out contradiction. So 2887 02:53:31.120 --> 02:53:35.200 how can is so if I call this this pen omniscient, 2888 02:53:35.680 --> 02:53:38.959 does that mean that well, I actually mean God the Father, 2889 02:53:39.120 --> 02:53:40.319 but I'm just mistaking it. 2890 02:53:40.319 --> 02:53:42.719 For this pen And I wouldn't say it in that way. 2891 02:53:42.719 --> 02:53:44.239 I would just say that if you say that, like, 2892 02:53:44.319 --> 02:53:47.840 there is this one God, he has this this attribute, 2893 02:53:47.959 --> 02:53:50.440 and this God is this stick, what's Well, the part 2894 02:53:50.520 --> 02:53:52.000 that is an error. 2895 02:53:51.879 --> 02:53:54.879 There is that that God is obviously not that stick. 2896 02:53:55.319 --> 02:53:58.559 No, there's more error, is the point. And the point 2897 02:53:58.639 --> 02:54:03.120 is that there's no one lowest common denominator list of 2898 02:54:03.159 --> 02:54:07.360 attributes that tells you the Unitarian God. That's the error. 2899 02:54:08.200 --> 02:54:11.520 I gotta uh, it's it seems unrelated. But there was 2900 02:54:11.600 --> 02:54:14.719 a there was on Twitter today there was some talk 2901 02:54:14.920 --> 02:54:19.000 about Wagner. He posted something where where he was talking 2902 02:54:19.000 --> 02:54:21.879 about how if if like the Pope came out. 2903 02:54:21.840 --> 02:54:23.440 Tomorrow when he said something heretical. 2904 02:54:24.159 --> 02:54:26.280 Uh, somebody said something like, oh, would you just convert 2905 02:54:26.280 --> 02:54:29.920 to Orthodox And He's like, well, obviously no, because I 2906 02:54:30.120 --> 02:54:31.920 think I believe in Catholicism. 2907 02:54:32.000 --> 02:54:34.280 And if Catholics is more to be proven untrue, I 2908 02:54:34.280 --> 02:54:37.239 would I would like go off and I don't know 2909 02:54:37.280 --> 02:54:38.520 what I would believe in at that point. 2910 02:54:38.600 --> 02:54:42.079 And I think truly I was in there saying like, oh, 2911 02:54:42.760 --> 02:54:44.959 these people, you know, they they would abandon Jesus. 2912 02:54:45.239 --> 02:54:47.959 So you guys would rather than admit that orthodox is true, 2913 02:54:48.000 --> 02:54:49.959 you guys would go be atheists. I think that says 2914 02:54:50.000 --> 02:54:50.239 a lot. 2915 02:54:51.719 --> 02:54:52.520 I'm not saying. 2916 02:54:53.479 --> 02:54:55.200 What I was getting at though, is is I think 2917 02:54:55.280 --> 02:54:58.360 that it's kind of, uh, in a roundabout way. I 2918 02:54:58.360 --> 02:55:01.000 think it's almost you're taking like a low common denominator 2919 02:55:01.079 --> 02:55:03.559 Christianity where it's like, oh, like the question it would 2920 02:55:03.559 --> 02:55:06.040 be like if Orthodoxy was fake, would either be like 2921 02:55:06.079 --> 02:55:08.799 a Protestant then like if Abosolic tradition was like you know, 2922 02:55:08.840 --> 02:55:12.799 if the Orthodox Church had a council and came and uh, 2923 02:55:13.159 --> 02:55:13.479 you know that. 2924 02:55:13.520 --> 02:55:15.000 They what does any of this have to do with 2925 02:55:15.120 --> 02:55:17.719 natural theology? Is the lowest common denominator? I don't understand. 2926 02:55:18.360 --> 02:55:20.399 Well, so because it seems like it's like, oh, well, 2927 02:55:20.559 --> 02:55:23.239 if if Orthodoxy is not true, well you know, I 2928 02:55:23.360 --> 02:55:26.520 still you know, worship this sort of general idea of 2929 02:55:27.399 --> 02:55:29.360 Christ according to like a general so it just. 2930 02:55:29.360 --> 02:55:30.959 Has nothing to do with what's true or false. You're 2931 02:55:31.000 --> 02:55:33.559 talking about what random Twitter people are saying. How does 2932 02:55:33.600 --> 02:55:36.360 this translate to the lowest anything to do with natural 2933 02:55:36.399 --> 02:55:37.879 theology's lowest common denominator? 2934 02:55:39.159 --> 02:55:41.840 I'm I'm I was wondering if you had a specific 2935 02:55:41.879 --> 02:55:43.799 take on that. I wasn't trying to go completely off topic, 2936 02:55:43.840 --> 02:55:45.680 but my point was that it seems like there is 2937 02:55:45.799 --> 02:55:48.440 this sort of there was a sort of admission there 2938 02:55:48.520 --> 02:55:50.719 that there is this there's like a low and what's 2939 02:55:50.760 --> 02:55:52.319 coming down denominator Christianity. 2940 02:55:52.360 --> 02:55:54.559 If my part, I mean, I don't know what Craig 2941 02:55:54.719 --> 02:55:56.520 is arguing. I have no idea what you're talking about. 2942 02:55:56.760 --> 02:55:59.399 So okay, all right about I just make the clear 2943 02:55:59.479 --> 02:56:02.120 point that what are the lowest common nominator attributes? And 2944 02:56:02.159 --> 02:56:02.520 how do you know? 2945 02:56:04.879 --> 02:56:06.840 I think that we would have to look to scripture and. 2946 02:56:07.079 --> 02:56:11.120 No, no lowest common nominator attributes means natural theology. That 2947 02:56:11.200 --> 02:56:12.239 means no looking to scripture. 2948 02:56:13.879 --> 02:56:17.719 Okay, but you were saying that last time we spoke, 2949 02:56:18.479 --> 02:56:20.879 I said, well, it seems like you would have to 2950 02:56:20.920 --> 02:56:25.840 say that there are anybody who misunderstands God would would 2951 02:56:25.840 --> 02:56:26.600 not be worshiping you out. 2952 02:56:26.639 --> 02:56:28.840 You said, no, that there's you don't have to understand everything, 2953 02:56:29.000 --> 02:56:32.200 but there's a certain criteria that you have to you 2954 02:56:32.360 --> 02:56:34.719 have to believe in to be to call yourself, you know, 2955 02:56:34.799 --> 02:56:37.520 to be truly worshiping God. Is that a mischaracterization of 2956 02:56:37.559 --> 02:56:39.239 what you said, No, there have to be. 2957 02:56:39.479 --> 02:56:41.719 That doesn't mean there's a lowest common nominator because it's 2958 02:56:41.719 --> 02:56:44.120 a set of beliefs. So there's a difference between a 2959 02:56:44.239 --> 02:56:47.399 set and that if you deny one of that set, 2960 02:56:47.639 --> 02:56:51.079 that you no longer have the correct reference. That's there's 2961 02:56:51.079 --> 02:56:53.239 a differ between that and saying that I'm saying there's 2962 02:56:53.239 --> 02:56:55.520 the lowest common nominator. I'm saying it's a holistic set. 2963 02:56:56.000 --> 02:57:00.280 So for example, all of the attributes that are hold 2964 02:57:00.399 --> 02:57:03.399 to us about God are necessary. So for example, if 2965 02:57:03.440 --> 02:57:06.079 I remove one of those, which is an essential attribute 2966 02:57:06.159 --> 02:57:09.639 or one of those key components, then I don't have 2967 02:57:09.760 --> 02:57:13.200 the same reference anymore. This is why a Mormon and 2968 02:57:13.280 --> 02:57:16.159 a Muslim and a Eunomian don't have the same God 2969 02:57:16.319 --> 02:57:19.440 in the tradition of the church. That that proves the point, 2970 02:57:19.520 --> 02:57:22.040 that's the point of the Garibee paper is that think 2971 02:57:22.120 --> 02:57:26.000 about card games, so's there's certain things that are in 2972 02:57:26.079 --> 02:57:30.879 common between poker and playing GoFish. They have cards in common, 2973 02:57:31.280 --> 02:57:35.000 they have hands in common. Both games have rules, so 2974 02:57:35.120 --> 02:57:36.920 the having of rules is something they have in common. 2975 02:57:36.959 --> 02:57:38.639 They don't have the same rules, but they have rules 2976 02:57:38.680 --> 02:57:42.040 in common. Right, But that doesn't mean we wouldn't conclude 2977 02:57:42.079 --> 02:57:45.239 from that because of those overlaps in commonalities that there's 2978 02:57:45.280 --> 02:57:48.760 a lowest common denominator card game that is neither go 2979 02:57:48.959 --> 02:57:51.840 fish nor poker. Do you agree? 2980 02:57:53.719 --> 02:57:53.840 Uh? 2981 02:57:54.120 --> 02:57:56.840 Yeah, I think I okay. So in the same way 2982 02:57:57.000 --> 02:58:00.239 Garibi argues in the paper that there's no lowest and 2983 02:58:00.239 --> 02:58:03.760 the nominator set of attributes that gets you the deity 2984 02:58:03.840 --> 02:58:07.440 that isn't specifically Christianity, Islam or Judaism, but is the 2985 02:58:08.079 --> 02:58:12.239 common deity that if that's true, that refutes natural theology. 2986 02:58:13.959 --> 02:58:14.159 Yeah. 2987 02:58:14.239 --> 02:58:16.600 See, the thing is is that I don't think that 2988 02:58:16.639 --> 02:58:19.680 there's like a generic God in that sense. 2989 02:58:19.719 --> 02:58:21.719 Then you're not a proponent of natural theology. 2990 02:58:22.479 --> 02:58:24.399 Well, no, because the last time we talked about this, 2991 02:58:24.680 --> 02:58:26.680 I talked about how I thought that Trent the way 2992 02:58:26.719 --> 02:58:30.000 he spoke about, for example, saying like it's basically is 2993 02:58:30.040 --> 02:58:32.440 like he completely ignore the theophanies. He basically said, like, 2994 02:58:32.479 --> 02:58:34.840 oh you know, Abraham, he worshiped with this Unitarian God. 2995 02:58:35.319 --> 02:58:37.440 We don't have to hold that position, and that's that's 2996 02:58:37.799 --> 02:58:38.600 he happened to hold that. 2997 02:58:38.799 --> 02:58:40.440 But that's not something I hold well. 2998 02:58:40.280 --> 02:58:42.520 I mean, every natural theology proponent believes that. So how 2999 02:58:42.559 --> 02:58:43.239 do you not believe that? 3000 02:58:44.479 --> 02:58:47.479 Well, I mean it depends on what you mean. I 3001 02:58:47.639 --> 02:58:50.360 don't think that that Abraham necessarily knew every little. 3002 02:58:51.239 --> 02:58:53.719 Now you're confusing that what. So again, remember what you 3003 02:58:53.840 --> 02:58:57.000 define natural theology as at the beginning, right, It's what, 3004 02:58:57.239 --> 02:59:00.520 for example, uh Aquinas does in the Simil Countridge Telays, 3005 02:59:00.879 --> 02:59:03.280 which is that he uses the self evident principles of 3006 02:59:03.360 --> 02:59:08.879 philosophy to delineate what an absolutely simple, a temporal, uncaused 3007 02:59:09.120 --> 02:59:14.799 essence that is one must be. That's natural theology correct. 3008 02:59:15.719 --> 02:59:17.600 But I'm not saying that there's like that there is 3009 02:59:18.120 --> 02:59:20.120 so as a Christian, as a Catholic, I believe that 3010 02:59:20.159 --> 02:59:23.280 there is only that there is only one God and 3011 02:59:23.399 --> 02:59:25.520 he has the instributes that he has and people. 3012 02:59:25.520 --> 02:59:27.959 So you're missing the whole point again. Do you what 3013 02:59:28.159 --> 02:59:30.639 I don't know? I mean, do you guys not understand 3014 02:59:30.840 --> 02:59:31.879 like what's going on here? 3015 02:59:32.639 --> 02:59:32.680 Like? 3016 02:59:33.000 --> 02:59:35.520 Do you you don't understand and understand how arbitrary that is. 3017 02:59:37.799 --> 02:59:38.280 Help me out. 3018 02:59:38.719 --> 02:59:41.000 Okay, So did you hear you said that you were 3019 02:59:41.000 --> 02:59:43.239 talking about when I debated with Pintsapp? Was that the 3020 02:59:43.280 --> 02:59:46.559 same stream or something I don't remember? Is that we talk? Okay? 3021 02:59:46.600 --> 02:59:48.239 Do you remember what I was asking Pine Sap or 3022 02:59:48.280 --> 02:59:49.319 do you want me to refresh you on that? 3023 02:59:50.120 --> 02:59:50.319 Well? 3024 02:59:51.879 --> 02:59:54.040 From what I remember, you guys were talking about the 3025 02:59:54.120 --> 02:59:55.479 papacy if I. 3026 02:59:55.639 --> 02:59:58.159 Remember, No, No, we're talking about epistemology. So let me 3027 02:59:58.239 --> 03:00:00.120 refresh you all restate that what I was saying is 3028 03:00:00.159 --> 03:00:02.920 that this is what natural theology is ultimately boiling down to, Like, 3029 03:00:04.079 --> 03:00:09.760 how do you know what the essential divine attributes are 3030 03:00:10.040 --> 03:00:14.079 apart from divine revelation in your Roman Catholic epistemology? 3031 03:00:16.239 --> 03:00:19.680 So I would if I'm just breaking it down as 3032 03:00:19.959 --> 03:00:22.719 there's some things that you can know about God apart 3033 03:00:22.840 --> 03:00:26.000 from revelation. Right, So if you're if you're mentioning some 3034 03:00:26.120 --> 03:00:29.559 attributes of God, if you're knowing things about God apart 3035 03:00:29.559 --> 03:00:32.680 from revelation, then you're simply doing that, right. 3036 03:00:33.639 --> 03:00:34.879 How do you how do you know what they are? 3037 03:00:35.520 --> 03:00:36.159 List some of them? 3038 03:00:36.239 --> 03:00:36.360 Tell? 3039 03:00:36.440 --> 03:00:37.600 How do you know that those are the ones that 3040 03:00:37.639 --> 03:00:38.159 are essential? 3041 03:00:41.040 --> 03:00:41.239 Yeah? 3042 03:00:41.239 --> 03:00:43.600 I guess that I see what you mean in the 3043 03:00:43.680 --> 03:00:45.440 sense of that that could become arbitrary. 3044 03:00:45.840 --> 03:00:46.159 I do it. 3045 03:00:46.239 --> 03:00:47.840 It is arbitrary. How do you know? 3046 03:00:49.079 --> 03:00:49.120 So? 3047 03:00:49.239 --> 03:00:52.959 In other words, you have to start with the tonistic, medieval, 3048 03:00:53.040 --> 03:00:59.879 scholastic metaphysic of natural philosophy, self evident axioms, first principles. 3049 03:01:00.440 --> 03:01:02.239 Why am I supposed to start with those? And by 3050 03:01:02.280 --> 03:01:04.280 the way, it isn't your natural theology then relying on 3051 03:01:04.680 --> 03:01:07.719 these metaphysical principles, How do we know that those are 3052 03:01:07.760 --> 03:01:08.079 the case? 3053 03:01:10.280 --> 03:01:12.760 Yeah, I'm not an expert in that. 3054 03:01:13.319 --> 03:01:16.680 Well, so the whole system is a presupposed classical foundationalist 3055 03:01:16.760 --> 03:01:20.040 epistemology that just asserts all these things, and anybody who 3056 03:01:20.520 --> 03:01:23.159 calls these things into question, the whole thing collapses. Why 3057 03:01:23.200 --> 03:01:26.639 am I supposed to start with that? This is what 3058 03:01:26.719 --> 03:01:28.200 I asked Tim Gordon the other day, because Tim and 3059 03:01:28.239 --> 03:01:30.399 I were going back and forth in DMS about natural 3060 03:01:30.479 --> 03:01:33.760 theology and its starting points, and I'm like, the reason 3061 03:01:33.840 --> 03:01:37.079 that Vatican Two, in those documents is saying that Muslims 3062 03:01:37.120 --> 03:01:39.360 and Christians and Jews all worship the same God is 3063 03:01:39.440 --> 03:01:42.959 because of the assumptions of natural theology and the metaphysical 3064 03:01:43.120 --> 03:01:46.559 just givens we're supposed to know, oh well, clearly, obviously, 3065 03:01:47.120 --> 03:01:52.120 the one true God is absolutely simple, a temporal, uncreated, 3066 03:01:52.440 --> 03:01:56.879 uncaused outside of time and space, non composite. Blah blah blah, 3067 03:01:57.840 --> 03:02:00.520 says who I mean, this is so arbitrary, And if 3068 03:02:00.559 --> 03:02:03.159 you read the Garabye paper like like, he literally just 3069 03:02:03.360 --> 03:02:11.159 destroys swinburn the thumis by just savaging this completely arbitrary nonsense. Like, 3070 03:02:11.639 --> 03:02:13.079 I mean, if you can come to the debate and 3071 03:02:13.159 --> 03:02:15.840 just assert all those things, what's stopping me from coming 3072 03:02:15.879 --> 03:02:18.040 to the table and saying, oh, well, my natural theology 3073 03:02:18.200 --> 03:02:19.360 is the opposite of all those things. 3074 03:02:21.479 --> 03:02:24.280 So how do you think that, like, for example, the 3075 03:02:24.360 --> 03:02:27.000 law of non contradiction, that sort of thing would play 3076 03:02:27.040 --> 03:02:28.159 in here because. 3077 03:02:28.079 --> 03:02:31.000 I had some I mean, I believe those those are 3078 03:02:31.000 --> 03:02:32.840 first principles. But that's why we go to tag and 3079 03:02:32.879 --> 03:02:34.200 say that, how do I know that? How do I 3080 03:02:34.319 --> 03:02:40.680 know what the self evident principles are? So do you 3081 03:02:40.760 --> 03:02:42.520 have a do you have a divine list of the 3082 03:02:42.520 --> 03:02:43.559 self evident principles? 3083 03:02:48.319 --> 03:02:50.840 I mean, how would you answer that question? 3084 03:02:50.920 --> 03:02:53.639 There is no answer to it. That's why there's no 3085 03:02:53.680 --> 03:02:55.760 such thing as naturally This is the point. Natural theology 3086 03:02:55.760 --> 03:02:57.520 doesn't work if you can be arbitr or I could 3087 03:02:57.520 --> 03:02:59.840 be arbitry. So are you familiar with that? Are familiar 3088 03:02:59.840 --> 03:03:00.719 with the criterion problem? 3089 03:03:02.440 --> 03:03:02.559 Now? 3090 03:03:02.840 --> 03:03:06.120 Okay, So the criterion problem is if you think that 3091 03:03:06.280 --> 03:03:09.639 you have knowledge whatever it is, let's say it's first 3092 03:03:09.680 --> 03:03:13.559 principles whatever, that assumes that criteria of knowledge, right, a 3093 03:03:13.639 --> 03:03:16.840 criteria of pistemology. But to have a criteria of pistemology 3094 03:03:16.879 --> 03:03:20.719 assumes knowledge, So you can't have knowledge of the criteria, 3095 03:03:20.760 --> 03:03:22.840 and you can't have a criteria without having knowledge of 3096 03:03:22.920 --> 03:03:27.319 the criteria. So there's an insoluble dilemma for any foundationalist 3097 03:03:27.440 --> 03:03:30.399 or any classical foundationalists of pistemology. And the reason for 3098 03:03:30.479 --> 03:03:32.760 this is that you guys just haven't caught up with 3099 03:03:32.879 --> 03:03:34.760 the last five hundred years. You guys are living in 3100 03:03:34.799 --> 03:03:37.399 the Middle Ages as if no one has done anything, 3101 03:03:37.879 --> 03:03:41.319 and everything post Middle Ages is all atheist and bad. 3102 03:03:42.120 --> 03:03:44.920 There's a lot of atheists. But that's a genetic fallacy. 3103 03:03:45.319 --> 03:03:47.360 So when are you, Thomas going to get with the 3104 03:03:47.479 --> 03:03:50.399 last five six hundred years of philosophical debate and realize 3105 03:03:50.440 --> 03:03:52.840 that people have actually asked good questions. And that's why 3106 03:03:52.920 --> 03:03:54.879 you guys don't do very good against atheist and debates. 3107 03:03:57.159 --> 03:04:03.399 So, okay, So if you, for example, when I, uh, 3108 03:04:04.559 --> 03:04:06.280 I had some Mormons actually coming to my door. 3109 03:04:06.520 --> 03:04:08.319 Oddly enough, I had been waiting for that for a while. 3110 03:04:08.360 --> 03:04:09.680 Now you want to go to Mormons. We're not going 3111 03:04:09.760 --> 03:04:12.440 to tell you what I thought. We're homology, natural theology, 3112 03:04:12.440 --> 03:04:13.079 and pistemology. 3113 03:04:14.319 --> 03:04:14.600 I was. 3114 03:04:14.799 --> 03:04:17.440 It seems unrelated. But the point was that the Mormons 3115 03:04:17.479 --> 03:04:20.520 were coming to talk, and it's like, well, you know, 3116 03:04:20.719 --> 03:04:22.079 They're like, oh, you want to become Mormon. 3117 03:04:22.120 --> 03:04:24.120 I'm like, well no, because I can write off Mormon 3118 03:04:24.200 --> 03:04:32.920 immediately because you polytheism is nonsensical, right, So would you 3119 03:04:33.000 --> 03:04:35.559 disagree with that, like that that you can't that the 3120 03:04:35.600 --> 03:04:39.200 one person couldn't, through reason alone, come to the conclusion 3121 03:04:39.239 --> 03:04:41.280 that polytheism is nonsensical, or. 3122 03:04:42.440 --> 03:04:44.680 How I mean, only on the assumption that there is 3123 03:04:44.840 --> 03:04:47.719 one cause who's absolutely am Only on the assumption of 3124 03:04:47.799 --> 03:04:49.840 all the I mean, okay, maybe it is, but why 3125 03:04:50.399 --> 03:04:52.879 and if you're going to start appealing to these other things, 3126 03:04:53.719 --> 03:04:56.360 how are the all those things also self evident? So 3127 03:04:56.399 --> 03:04:59.319 I think you're missing the point of Like, I don't 3128 03:04:59.360 --> 03:05:03.200 disagree with the fact that we can do apologetics and 3129 03:05:03.239 --> 03:05:07.399 review positions, but if your argument is well, it's all 3130 03:05:07.479 --> 03:05:10.239 built on things that are self evident and that are 3131 03:05:10.399 --> 03:05:13.399 just arbitrary. Well, these are obviously the starting points. How 3132 03:05:13.440 --> 03:05:15.920 do you know that? Why should I accept your arbitrary 3133 03:05:15.920 --> 03:05:18.200 list of the starting points? What's the basis for that? 3134 03:05:19.079 --> 03:05:22.120 I'm trying to understand. So do you arguing I basically 3135 03:05:22.159 --> 03:05:24.799 may be the argument from the unmoved mover to them 3136 03:05:25.000 --> 03:05:26.120 to try and you know, because. 3137 03:05:26.639 --> 03:05:29.120 You're missing the point like why why am I supposed 3138 03:05:29.159 --> 03:05:31.079 to accept that as the starting point? 3139 03:05:31.760 --> 03:05:34.040 Well, I'm asking you where where did I er there? 3140 03:05:34.479 --> 03:05:36.559 How do you know that you can start with the 3141 03:05:36.680 --> 03:05:38.840 unmoved mover as your starting point in epistemology? 3142 03:05:40.120 --> 03:05:44.920 Well because of the uh yeah, the first principle is obviously. 3143 03:05:44.639 --> 03:05:47.360 So that's okay. So wait a minute. So that's a 3144 03:05:47.440 --> 03:05:52.399 first principle love of causality that I think. Okay, So again, 3145 03:05:52.440 --> 03:05:54.799 now you're just asserting the metaphysical positions that are in question. 3146 03:05:54.879 --> 03:05:56.840 How do you know that causality is a first principle? 3147 03:05:59.360 --> 03:06:02.920 Yeah, I mean I could. I mean, this seems that 3148 03:06:03.000 --> 03:06:03.879 this is sort of a. 3149 03:06:03.920 --> 03:06:07.399 Human absolutely, it is absolutely human. 3150 03:06:07.520 --> 03:06:08.639 Yeah, and I'm not seeing that. 3151 03:06:09.079 --> 03:06:12.559 I know that you've mentioned human before, of course, but 3152 03:06:12.920 --> 03:06:15.200 and then CON tries to reason out of that, and 3153 03:06:15.440 --> 03:06:19.159 it's just Con has nothing to do with it. He 3154 03:06:19.639 --> 03:06:21.680 attempted to come up with solutions, but the CON. 3155 03:06:21.680 --> 03:06:24.319 Has nothing to do with this objection, which is an 3156 03:06:24.360 --> 03:06:27.680 objection to self evident first principles from David Hume and 3157 03:06:27.719 --> 03:06:28.559 other skeptics. 3158 03:06:29.159 --> 03:06:31.079 So I help me understand how you would how you 3159 03:06:31.120 --> 03:06:31.680 would go about it. 3160 03:06:31.719 --> 03:06:35.680 I'm not a classical foundationless. I'm saying that's what this is, 3161 03:06:35.719 --> 03:06:36.600 what tag is all about. 3162 03:06:36.600 --> 03:06:39.680 Bro, I'm not like saying there. 3163 03:06:39.719 --> 03:06:42.600 Is no answer to these things. There is no solving 3164 03:06:43.239 --> 03:06:46.600 on a secular humanist route. That's why we believe in 3165 03:06:46.639 --> 03:06:49.719 a revelational epistemology because these are all dead ends and 3166 03:06:49.840 --> 03:06:54.360 you can't avoid the arbitrariness of saying, here's my give me, 3167 03:06:54.440 --> 03:06:56.639 grant me these metaphysics and I'll prove you my position. 3168 03:06:57.239 --> 03:06:58.959 Why should I accept those metaphysics? 3169 03:07:00.600 --> 03:07:03.000 So what things do you would you say that that 3170 03:07:03.159 --> 03:07:04.879 have to be granted to know things? 3171 03:07:05.079 --> 03:07:07.520 There's all kinds of things that there is no there 3172 03:07:07.600 --> 03:07:10.639 is no basic set of things that's self evident. And 3173 03:07:10.799 --> 03:07:12.440 then you look, I could give you another way to 3174 03:07:12.479 --> 03:07:14.000 show this, which is that do you think that some 3175 03:07:14.079 --> 03:07:15.440 things are self evident and some aren't. 3176 03:07:18.440 --> 03:07:20.399 I don't even know how I would answer that question, right. 3177 03:07:20.319 --> 03:07:22.399 So the list the answer would have to be if 3178 03:07:22.399 --> 03:07:24.760 you foundationalists, yeah, some things are self evident, many or 3179 03:07:24.799 --> 03:07:28.200 not many other things are inferential. Okay, Well, is the 3180 03:07:28.639 --> 03:07:31.040 differentiation between the things that are self evident the ones 3181 03:07:31.079 --> 03:07:33.719 that are not? Is that self evident? You see, it's 3182 03:07:33.719 --> 03:07:37.559 another begging the question. It's just like in the trend debate, 3183 03:07:37.719 --> 03:07:41.639 like there's just no, there's no it's there's no self 3184 03:07:41.680 --> 03:07:44.280 evident principles that you allow you to build a system 3185 03:07:44.799 --> 03:07:47.840 that aren't arbitrary. And the point of tag is that 3186 03:07:48.040 --> 03:07:51.479 nobody can get out of this. Everybody's systems are ultimately 3187 03:07:51.600 --> 03:07:57.040 recursive and self referencing at the starting point. That's why 3188 03:07:57.239 --> 03:07:59.639 what grounds a position is the worldview as a whole, 3189 03:08:00.159 --> 03:08:02.879 and not some random thing that Aristotle thinks as a 3190 03:08:02.920 --> 03:08:03.559 first principle. 3191 03:08:05.479 --> 03:08:08.719 I mean, so obviously we're not completely detached from revelation, 3192 03:08:09.639 --> 03:08:12.719 and I think that we're sort of we're ground these 3193 03:08:12.799 --> 03:08:13.680 principles are inside. 3194 03:08:13.799 --> 03:08:16.399 But that's not going to get you anywhere with what 3195 03:08:16.600 --> 03:08:23.920 natural theology says about first principles. How So, because natural 3196 03:08:23.959 --> 03:08:27.559 theology presupposes neutrality, and that you're starting your reasoning without 3197 03:08:27.600 --> 03:08:30.959 anything to do with divine revelation. You're beginning with reason alone, 3198 03:08:31.520 --> 03:08:35.920 and you're building on self evident first principles. How do 3199 03:08:36.000 --> 03:08:37.920 you know what the self evident first principles are without 3200 03:08:37.920 --> 03:08:38.520 being arbitrary? 3201 03:08:39.879 --> 03:08:40.639 So I have a question. 3202 03:08:40.760 --> 03:08:42.840 I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. So 3203 03:08:43.120 --> 03:08:48.479 the if somebody, so you believe that God has certain attributes, 3204 03:08:48.559 --> 03:08:52.000 and if somebody were to somebody somebody's never had some 3205 03:08:52.040 --> 03:08:54.479 sort of revelation, if they were to come to conclusions 3206 03:08:54.520 --> 03:08:56.760 about anything, if you were talking to somebody that they're like, yeah, 3207 03:08:56.760 --> 03:08:58.840 there's this one God and he has these attributes, and 3208 03:08:58.879 --> 03:09:01.200 you agree with all these attributes up to a point, 3209 03:09:01.760 --> 03:09:04.280 would you say like, basically they just got lucky or 3210 03:09:04.680 --> 03:09:07.920 how would you like they arrived at are a proper 3211 03:09:08.000 --> 03:09:09.959 conclusion based off of false reason? 3212 03:09:10.120 --> 03:09:13.879 I think, like Paul says in Romans, one God, the Triad, 3213 03:09:13.959 --> 03:09:17.559 the Trinity, the Logos is not far from anybody. The 3214 03:09:17.639 --> 03:09:20.280 Word is near you, even in your hearts. Every man 3215 03:09:20.440 --> 03:09:24.079 has a heart anoetic principle by which he directly relates 3216 03:09:24.159 --> 03:09:28.440 to God and he has to reattach that relationship, that 3217 03:09:28.920 --> 03:09:33.079 connectivity which happens through divine revelation. But I don't restrict 3218 03:09:33.079 --> 03:09:37.440 divine revelation to I mean, the world itself is a theoteny. 3219 03:09:38.000 --> 03:09:40.840 That's something that Thomas and you guys don't understand. Like 3220 03:09:41.360 --> 03:09:45.600 the the cosmos, is that the oftening of Christ? What 3221 03:09:45.719 --> 03:09:46.200 do you think of that? 3222 03:09:48.520 --> 03:09:50.079 I mean, I think that. 3223 03:09:51.120 --> 03:09:54.879 I mean I think you would definitely just push back 3224 03:09:54.920 --> 03:09:57.559 and disagree with this, But my thought would be, yes, 3225 03:09:57.680 --> 03:10:00.200 I agree, and that's why we're able to know these things. 3226 03:10:00.239 --> 03:10:03.920 That's why we But that's now you're violating natural theology. 3227 03:10:04.559 --> 03:10:07.200 The natural theology doesn't tell you anything about the Trinity. 3228 03:10:08.079 --> 03:10:10.239 The Trinity is not a principal of natural theology. It's 3229 03:10:10.239 --> 03:10:13.360 a principal divine revelation. All natural theology tells you is 3230 03:10:13.479 --> 03:10:17.319 the lowest common denominator attributes of the absolutely simple essence. 3231 03:10:18.639 --> 03:10:20.920 I don't think that's necessarily fair. 3232 03:10:21.959 --> 03:10:23.520 No, what do you mean that's not fair that that's 3233 03:10:23.680 --> 03:10:26.440 your theology unless you're like departing from Tumaism or something. 3234 03:10:27.440 --> 03:10:31.920 No, I think what's if you're saying that what we're 3235 03:10:31.959 --> 03:10:36.120 saying is that that humans can't wouldn't know about the Trinity. 3236 03:10:36.239 --> 03:10:38.360 That doesn't mean that we can't recognize it after knowing 3237 03:10:38.440 --> 03:10:39.399 it in nature. 3238 03:10:41.040 --> 03:10:42.840 That has nothing to do with the fact that the 3239 03:10:42.920 --> 03:10:45.520 trinity and the incarnation, the virgin birth are doctrines of 3240 03:10:45.680 --> 03:10:49.639 supernatural divine revelation in Catholic theology. They are not aspects 3241 03:10:49.719 --> 03:10:52.879 of natural theology. And what we're saying is there is 3242 03:10:52.959 --> 03:10:56.399 notice that this is a false distinction. There's natural revelation, 3243 03:10:56.879 --> 03:10:59.719 but that natural revelation is of the triad. You don't 3244 03:10:59.719 --> 03:11:03.360 believe that. No, Thomas believes that you're not getting Nature 3245 03:11:03.479 --> 03:11:05.239 is not teaching you Jesus and your theology. 3246 03:11:07.399 --> 03:11:08.719 I mean I think that that's. 3247 03:11:11.200 --> 03:11:12.879 Have you read the Semicontures in Tels. 3248 03:11:13.879 --> 03:11:15.079 I've heard quite a bit of it. 3249 03:11:15.120 --> 03:11:17.239 Okay, so volume one, what is it? Is there anything 3250 03:11:17.280 --> 03:11:18.079 about trinity in there? 3251 03:11:18.959 --> 03:11:21.959 No, it's it's the first most of the questions regarding 3252 03:11:22.280 --> 03:11:22.959 God's nature. 3253 03:11:23.680 --> 03:11:25.680 That's from what from natural theology? 3254 03:11:26.159 --> 03:11:26.479 Correct? 3255 03:11:26.559 --> 03:11:26.879 Correct? 3256 03:11:27.360 --> 03:11:29.479 So there's nothing about trinity in there because trinity and 3257 03:11:29.520 --> 03:11:33.319 incarnation are not part of natural theology. They're divine revelation, 3258 03:11:33.399 --> 03:11:36.559 they're supernatural theology. This is like Thomas in One on 3259 03:11:36.639 --> 03:11:36.959 One Man. 3260 03:11:37.360 --> 03:11:41.079 So again that's why I was asking you before, So 3261 03:11:41.479 --> 03:11:45.959 how would you proved God exists to a skeptica. 3262 03:11:46.719 --> 03:11:48.680 Have you not heard me make tags as an art. 3263 03:11:48.719 --> 03:11:50.079 I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just saying, like, 3264 03:11:51.200 --> 03:11:53.159 you haven't heard me do this argument for like twenty years. 3265 03:11:53.239 --> 03:11:55.680 Come on, if you've had me, you've had me blanches. 3266 03:11:55.719 --> 03:11:57.479 I haven't been able to use your content as much 3267 03:11:57.479 --> 03:12:01.000 as I used to. Please if you want to. 3268 03:12:01.120 --> 03:12:04.000 I mean, there's a million public YouTube videos. You're not blocked. 3269 03:12:04.200 --> 03:12:05.920 It's like you're blocked. You can't watch those? 3270 03:12:05.959 --> 03:12:06.360 What do you mean? 3271 03:12:07.000 --> 03:12:10.079 I just I haven't. I haven't engaged with your content 3272 03:12:10.120 --> 03:12:11.200 as much as I used to. 3273 03:12:11.600 --> 03:12:12.120 It's fine. 3274 03:12:12.239 --> 03:12:14.360 I might have seen something like that and for simply 3275 03:12:14.399 --> 03:12:16.200 forgotten it. I apologize for that. 3276 03:12:16.799 --> 03:12:18.360 No, it's a I mean, you're in a system that 3277 03:12:18.440 --> 03:12:21.399 doesn't allow you for you to understand system theology and 3278 03:12:21.479 --> 03:12:24.360 internal critiques because you are in a classical foundation, let's 3279 03:12:24.559 --> 03:12:27.399 building block system, and you think everything is proven by 3280 03:12:27.440 --> 03:12:29.200 stacking a bunch of evidences. And when I do an 3281 03:12:29.200 --> 03:12:33.239 internal critique, you guys go haywiter. It doesn't it doesn't 3282 03:12:33.239 --> 03:12:35.360 make sense. Just it doesn't make sense. But I'm not 3283 03:12:35.440 --> 03:12:37.520 trying to be rude, but like this illustrates I think 3284 03:12:37.559 --> 03:12:41.000 everything that I've been saying like, there, how are you 3285 03:12:41.120 --> 03:12:44.719 going to? Let me give you another example. Maybe this 3286 03:12:44.760 --> 03:12:50.360 will help hammer it home. The doctrine of if you 3287 03:12:50.399 --> 03:12:52.040 look out of the natural world. Let's say we're going 3288 03:12:52.079 --> 03:12:56.000 to reason from uh, natural theology principles apart from divine revelation. 3289 03:12:57.520 --> 03:13:00.600 When you look at the world, doesn't it include death? 3290 03:13:03.440 --> 03:13:03.680 Sure? 3291 03:13:04.600 --> 03:13:07.239 Would we conclude that death is natural from that? 3292 03:13:10.520 --> 03:13:10.840 You could? 3293 03:13:10.959 --> 03:13:16.239 Yes, right, you could. But divine revelation tells us that 3294 03:13:16.360 --> 03:13:20.319 this world is actually fallen and that death is not natural, 3295 03:13:20.360 --> 03:13:24.399 it's actually unnatural. And so I can't really understand this world? 3296 03:13:24.600 --> 03:13:26.920 Can I The way that there's a predator prey relationship, 3297 03:13:26.959 --> 03:13:31.079 the way there's corruption, decay, and death without what's in Genesis? 3298 03:13:31.200 --> 03:13:31.319 Right? 3299 03:13:31.920 --> 03:13:36.120 How can I accurately interpret nature without Genesis in the fall? 3300 03:13:38.120 --> 03:13:38.319 Yeah? 3301 03:13:38.479 --> 03:13:41.440 So, I mean I would say, so you can know 3302 03:13:41.600 --> 03:13:42.719 some things, that doesn't. 3303 03:13:42.520 --> 03:13:43.639 Mean that you can know everything. 3304 03:13:43.879 --> 03:13:45.799 Well, how do I know the things that are What 3305 03:13:45.920 --> 03:13:47.520 are the some things that I'm knowing when I look 3306 03:13:47.559 --> 03:13:49.840 at at the world. And remember we're not going to 3307 03:13:49.920 --> 03:13:52.159 reference divine revelation here, We're only going to be natural 3308 03:13:52.159 --> 03:13:54.799 theology principles. You just said that, I mean, couldn't I 3309 03:13:54.840 --> 03:13:56.079 conclude that death is natural. 3310 03:13:57.639 --> 03:13:57.799 You know. 3311 03:13:58.319 --> 03:13:59.000 That's that's why. 3312 03:13:58.920 --> 03:14:01.239 I'm saying, we're not completely divorce for revelation in that sense, 3313 03:14:01.319 --> 03:14:03.399 we would say look to revelation to know the things 3314 03:14:03.479 --> 03:14:04.840 that No. 3315 03:14:04.879 --> 03:14:08.200 No, now you're violating the principle of natural theology. So 3316 03:14:08.799 --> 03:14:10.559 you're saying, oh, well, we can look to revelation. No, 3317 03:14:10.719 --> 03:14:14.079 we're doing natural theology apart from divine revelation. My point 3318 03:14:14.159 --> 03:14:17.239 is that you can't interpret the natural world correctly without genesis, 3319 03:14:18.040 --> 03:14:20.840 because you're going to conclude, as the atheist did of 3320 03:14:20.920 --> 03:14:24.719 the seventeen eighteenth century, that the natural world shows that death, decaying, 3321 03:14:24.760 --> 03:14:29.959 corruption aren't natural and part of the process. And if 3322 03:14:30.000 --> 03:14:32.399 you're going to say, oh, you're misinterpreting the natural world 3323 03:14:32.399 --> 03:14:36.040 because of genesis, yeah, now you're not a natural theologian anymore. 3324 03:14:37.360 --> 03:14:40.520 So you can't interpret the natural world correctly without divine revelation. 3325 03:14:40.600 --> 03:14:46.840 As the point, yeah, I'm not disputing that that disproves 3326 03:14:46.920 --> 03:14:49.920 natural theology. You can't even understand the basics of nature 3327 03:14:49.959 --> 03:14:50.719 without revelation. 3328 03:14:53.879 --> 03:14:55.280 I mean, like, for. 3329 03:14:55.319 --> 03:14:57.760 Example, like we would a knit when it comes to God, 3330 03:14:58.079 --> 03:15:00.879 that you can't fully understand God of part natural or 3331 03:15:01.959 --> 03:15:03.200 a perferal revelation. 3332 03:15:03.159 --> 03:15:03.920 That's the whole point. 3333 03:15:05.479 --> 03:15:08.319 No, you're missing the point that you have two conflicting 3334 03:15:08.440 --> 03:15:11.799 systems at work at once. One system is a natural 3335 03:15:11.879 --> 03:15:16.959 theology atheistic approach, which there's no logical reason why I 3336 03:15:17.079 --> 03:15:20.280 can't conclude on the base of natural theology that death 3337 03:15:20.399 --> 03:15:23.319 is natural. And then you're saying, well, but I can 3338 03:15:23.319 --> 03:15:26.159 also appeal to divine revelation. Well, now you're not doing 3339 03:15:26.280 --> 03:15:28.879 natural theology anymore. So you're admitting my point that you 3340 03:15:29.040 --> 03:15:33.280 need divine revelation to correctly interpret a fallen world. Otherwise, 3341 03:15:33.600 --> 03:15:35.479 why wouldn't we conclude death is natural. 3342 03:15:36.479 --> 03:15:39.079 Yeah, again, I don't see how that's an issue, because. 3343 03:15:38.840 --> 03:15:40.600 That's the whole point. That's the whole point. 3344 03:15:40.639 --> 03:15:43.399 That's why we have revelation. That's the whole purpose of revelation. 3345 03:15:43.840 --> 03:15:45.040 I'm not trying to be as smart, and it just 3346 03:15:45.120 --> 03:15:47.840 it seems to me that that's the purpose of revelation 3347 03:15:48.000 --> 03:15:49.920 is so we can properly interpret these things. 3348 03:15:50.000 --> 03:15:52.520 Then you just undercut the whole point of natural theology. 3349 03:15:52.559 --> 03:15:54.719 When you try to interpret the natural world, you understand, 3350 03:15:55.040 --> 03:15:57.440 your whole argument is like, oh, I can look at 3351 03:15:57.479 --> 03:16:00.440 the world and I see causation, I see content, agency, 3352 03:16:01.600 --> 03:16:03.799 don't you see death too. The point is that you're 3353 03:16:03.920 --> 03:16:08.760 arbitrarily picking things and you're relying on your Christian presuppositions 3354 03:16:08.799 --> 03:16:11.440 to interpret the natural world when we're not talking about 3355 03:16:11.440 --> 03:16:14.840 the Christian revelation. We're talking about natural theology. So you're 3356 03:16:14.959 --> 03:16:18.360 if I'm gonna play an atheist to you, okay, as 3357 03:16:18.719 --> 03:16:20.840 as I'm playing the atheist, not wortholot so say I'm 3358 03:16:20.840 --> 03:16:24.000 playing the atheist guy. Your position is totally incoherent and 3359 03:16:24.200 --> 03:16:27.559 arbitrary and contradictory because you're telling me that without divine revelation, 3360 03:16:27.639 --> 03:16:31.040 I can look at the world and see causation contingency. Uh, 3361 03:16:31.280 --> 03:16:34.360 you know all of these principles te los, all these 3362 03:16:34.440 --> 03:16:36.600 things that work in the world, and I can tell 3363 03:16:36.639 --> 03:16:40.040 I can just simply respond by saying, I also see death. Therefore, 3364 03:16:40.159 --> 03:16:43.200 death is a natural process. And if you admit death 3365 03:16:43.200 --> 03:16:45.680 as a natural process, and there's no reason why I 3366 03:16:45.799 --> 03:16:48.520 can't say that in a natural theology starting point position, 3367 03:16:49.040 --> 03:16:51.680 then you've now undercut divine revelation and refuted yourself as 3368 03:16:51.719 --> 03:16:52.159 a Christian. 3369 03:16:54.559 --> 03:16:54.920 M hm. 3370 03:16:56.159 --> 03:16:56.600 Okay, So. 3371 03:16:59.440 --> 03:17:01.559 You don't unders saying what natural theology is, you keep 3372 03:17:01.600 --> 03:17:03.840 importing divine revelation into it. That's not what it is 3373 03:17:04.239 --> 03:17:06.520 you have to start with your starting points, which are 3374 03:17:06.559 --> 03:17:10.959 self evident philosophical reasoning, rational principles. You can't appeal to 3375 03:17:11.000 --> 03:17:14.319 divine revelation, your remember, this is your whole process. Thomas 3376 03:17:14.360 --> 03:17:16.520 Aquinas doesn't appeal to the trinity in sum Countries and 3377 03:17:16.559 --> 03:17:20.600 Telays One. He starts arguing philosophical, self evident principles that 3378 03:17:20.680 --> 03:17:22.959 you have in common with unbelievers. You're trying to convince 3379 03:17:22.959 --> 03:17:24.760 an atheist. I'm not going to listen to your appeals 3380 03:17:24.799 --> 03:17:28.000 to Genesis, okay, And you're gonna say, okay, so you're 3381 03:17:28.000 --> 03:17:32.000 appealing to things like causation, te los, contingency, the five 3382 03:17:32.079 --> 03:17:35.600 proofs of Aquitas, the things he appeals to, right, yes, 3383 03:17:35.760 --> 03:17:38.559 And I'm just simply saying, why are those the things 3384 03:17:38.600 --> 03:17:41.239 that you pick out in the natural world as self 3385 03:17:41.319 --> 03:17:45.120 evident principles. Why isn't death a self evident principle that's 3386 03:17:45.239 --> 03:17:47.479 natural and part of the natural world. And if you 3387 03:17:47.559 --> 03:17:50.079 admit that it is, you've undercut your Christianity. 3388 03:17:52.280 --> 03:17:55.399 You could just say that, I mean, obviously that we 3389 03:17:55.520 --> 03:17:56.680 provide reasons for that. 3390 03:17:56.840 --> 03:17:58.639 Obviously, what are your reasons? 3391 03:17:59.600 --> 03:18:00.680 Well, I mean, and you could say that. 3392 03:18:00.719 --> 03:18:04.520 It appears that way due to our current fall in nature. 3393 03:18:04.360 --> 03:18:07.040 The fall, So that's from Genesis. Just undercut the whole 3394 03:18:07.120 --> 03:18:08.719 argument and prove my point. You have to pill to 3395 03:18:08.760 --> 03:18:10.639 Genesis to unterpret the natural world correctly. 3396 03:18:10.719 --> 03:18:16.399 Thank you great again. I'm not so you're separating natural 3397 03:18:16.479 --> 03:18:17.479 theology completely. 3398 03:18:17.799 --> 03:18:20.040 I did it separated completely? No, the point of it 3399 03:18:20.159 --> 03:18:23.239 in apologetics in your system is to convince unbelievers on 3400 03:18:23.280 --> 03:18:26.559 the basis of reasoning principles in common. And I'm an 3401 03:18:26.600 --> 03:18:29.440 atheist who's saying you're arbitrary in what you pick out 3402 03:18:29.520 --> 03:18:33.319 as the reasoning principles that are true. You're you're arbitrarily 3403 03:18:33.399 --> 03:18:37.360 picking on the basis of Christian presubpositions, things like causation 3404 03:18:37.520 --> 03:18:39.639 and order in the world and morality in the world. 3405 03:18:40.200 --> 03:18:42.559 And I'm going to, arbitrarily, as an atheist, say I 3406 03:18:42.719 --> 03:18:46.399 counter that by death, lack of order in the world, 3407 03:18:46.799 --> 03:18:50.520 lack of design. Do you see, because we're not you 3408 03:18:50.559 --> 03:18:53.159 can't appeal to divine revelation in a natural theology argument. 3409 03:18:54.319 --> 03:18:54.600 Why not? 3410 03:18:55.479 --> 03:18:57.799 Because it's not natural theology. You just defined it like 3411 03:18:57.879 --> 03:19:00.799 five minutes ago as not appealing to divine reply according 3412 03:19:00.840 --> 03:19:01.760 to you and your church. 3413 03:19:02.559 --> 03:19:04.600 Yeah, so what I what I would say is is 3414 03:19:04.680 --> 03:19:08.399 that like speaking to an atheist, Well, then I would say, well, 3415 03:19:08.440 --> 03:19:10.799 you know, so there obviously would reach. 3416 03:19:10.760 --> 03:19:12.959 I'm an atheist on an accept divine revelation, You're gonna 3417 03:19:13.040 --> 03:19:15.399 argue with me on the basis of your self evident 3418 03:19:15.680 --> 03:19:17.920 metaphysical principles and your classical tomism. 3419 03:19:19.159 --> 03:19:21.159 So yeah, I mean, if you want to argue that 3420 03:19:21.879 --> 03:19:24.040 divine revelation is impossible, which plenty. 3421 03:19:23.799 --> 03:19:26.319 Of people do, no stop deflecting, has nothing to Maybe 3422 03:19:26.360 --> 03:19:28.760 it is possible, But why am I supposed to accept 3423 03:19:28.799 --> 03:19:32.719 your self evident first principles of design and whatever that 3424 03:19:32.840 --> 03:19:35.159 you see out there in the world apart from divine revelation. 3425 03:19:35.719 --> 03:19:38.399 You want me to adopt your common ground, and all 3426 03:19:38.479 --> 03:19:40.200 I have to do to defeat you this is just 3427 03:19:40.280 --> 03:19:43.280 a simple defeatter for your argument is I pick different 3428 03:19:43.360 --> 03:19:46.559 starting points from the appearance of the natural world, namely 3429 03:19:46.639 --> 03:19:48.920 that death is natural and that there is no order. 3430 03:19:49.159 --> 03:19:52.319 There's a lack of order and design. There's chaos, there's decay, 3431 03:19:52.399 --> 03:19:55.360 there's entropy. Those maybe those are the things that I'm 3432 03:19:55.360 --> 03:19:57.760 supposed to look to. All this is illustrating is that 3433 03:19:57.840 --> 03:20:03.040 your starting points are arbitrary. It's that simple, And. 3434 03:20:04.719 --> 03:20:06.920 I'm not trying to say I'm not trying to say 3435 03:20:06.959 --> 03:20:09.319 like too quickly or like you know what about it 3436 03:20:09.399 --> 03:20:10.440 is that I'm actually curious. 3437 03:20:10.479 --> 03:20:13.079 So you think that your position or you believe your position. 3438 03:20:13.280 --> 03:20:15.559 No, I'm an atheist skeptic. I don't have to say that. 3439 03:20:15.840 --> 03:20:18.239 My I'm saying. All I have to do to defeat 3440 03:20:18.280 --> 03:20:20.520 your arbitrary in this is to say, well, my counter 3441 03:20:20.639 --> 03:20:23.600 with these arbitraries, why am I supposed to accept that 3442 03:20:23.959 --> 03:20:26.280 the natural world is ordered versus disordered? 3443 03:20:27.040 --> 03:20:28.239 Yeah? But I mean you could do the same thing 3444 03:20:28.280 --> 03:20:28.799 with a revelation. 3445 03:20:28.879 --> 03:20:30.559 You could say, oh, why do you keep appilling to 3446 03:20:30.600 --> 03:20:32.760 bind revelation? You can't do that in natural theology. 3447 03:20:33.319 --> 03:20:36.440 Well, I'm saying even if even was to say that, 3448 03:20:36.680 --> 03:20:39.920 you know, we're just we're doing exclusively revelation, if we 3449 03:20:40.000 --> 03:20:41.399 were going off of that, I mean. 3450 03:20:41.479 --> 03:20:43.479 Why do you keep appealing to the thing that is 3451 03:20:43.559 --> 03:20:47.079 not relevant in natural theology? So you're proving my point 3452 03:20:47.159 --> 03:20:51.079 that you can't that you it's inescapable to appeal to revelation. 3453 03:20:51.280 --> 03:20:56.479 Why Because guess what, I agree that causation, tilos, order, morals, 3454 03:20:56.520 --> 03:20:59.719 all that stuff exists, and it's necessary, but it's grounded 3455 03:20:59.760 --> 03:21:02.319 in relation. And the very way that you operate. You 3456 03:21:02.440 --> 03:21:05.159 keep going back to that proves my point that it's inescapable. 3457 03:21:05.840 --> 03:21:08.520 That's why we do that as a better apologetic than 3458 03:21:09.040 --> 03:21:11.760 this dumb idea that there's self evident principles that you 3459 03:21:11.840 --> 03:21:14.440 can convince an atheist with. And if a smart atheist 3460 03:21:14.479 --> 03:21:17.399 comes to this and says, this is arbitrary, why am 3461 03:21:17.440 --> 03:21:20.399 I supposed to accept those things and not the other things? 3462 03:21:20.799 --> 03:21:21.719 Can you tell me why. 3463 03:21:24.559 --> 03:21:27.319 I would say that you would be I think that 3464 03:21:27.719 --> 03:21:29.920 it would be you would be unable to reason with. 3465 03:21:30.319 --> 03:21:32.600 Okay, maybe we don't. Maybe we can't. Maybe maybe we're 3466 03:21:32.680 --> 03:21:35.319 deceiving ourselves and we can't reason. You understand, there's giant, 3467 03:21:35.440 --> 03:21:36.879 giant millions of people that believe that. 3468 03:21:37.440 --> 03:21:38.040 I understand. 3469 03:21:38.239 --> 03:21:39.920 Yeah, I'm aware and that you know, I get the 3470 03:21:40.000 --> 03:21:43.520 whole the cog two comes out of that, and yeah, 3471 03:21:43.680 --> 03:21:49.000 I'm well aware. But well, I think we've uh, we've 3472 03:21:49.000 --> 03:21:51.360 probably gotten to all the topics that I wanted to 3473 03:21:51.399 --> 03:21:52.799 talk to, especially. 3474 03:21:52.680 --> 03:21:54.280 Well, I mean, it was funny, right, but I think 3475 03:21:54.479 --> 03:21:56.479 it illustrates we like when we got to the point 3476 03:21:56.520 --> 03:21:59.680 where I said, why isn't death natural? And it's the 3477 03:21:59.760 --> 03:22:01.559 act full principle that you usually look to rather than 3478 03:22:01.680 --> 03:22:04.319 like causation or two last something like that, And you said, well, 3479 03:22:04.399 --> 03:22:07.239 because of the fall. Yeah, but that's a doctrine from 3480 03:22:07.280 --> 03:22:10.520 divine revelation. So you're admitting the point that you actually 3481 03:22:10.559 --> 03:22:14.399 can't interpret the natural world without divine revelation, and that 3482 03:22:14.559 --> 03:22:15.719 destroys natural theology. 3483 03:22:16.079 --> 03:22:19.280 Hold on, I think the whole, the whole, the natural theology, 3484 03:22:19.319 --> 03:22:21.799 the whole point is that we cannot fully understand the 3485 03:22:21.840 --> 03:22:23.760 world apart from that from divine repoles. 3486 03:22:23.760 --> 03:22:25.719 Okay, you can say that, but I'm pointing out how 3487 03:22:25.799 --> 03:22:28.879 you can't even arbitrarily. You can't even consistently tell me 3488 03:22:28.920 --> 03:22:31.840 which principle I'm supposed to follow without being arbitrary because 3489 03:22:31.840 --> 03:22:34.479 you're saying, no, no, you're misinterpreting. It's not actually death 3490 03:22:34.559 --> 03:22:37.760 that's natural, you see, because that's part of the fallen world. Well, 3491 03:22:37.760 --> 03:22:39.280 you wouldn't know that apart from Genesis. 3492 03:22:39.879 --> 03:22:40.200 Correct. 3493 03:22:40.520 --> 03:22:41.920 I'm conceding that I don't understand. 3494 03:22:41.920 --> 03:22:44.200 Okay, then then you don't believe in natural theology anymore. 3495 03:22:43.920 --> 03:22:44.159 Thank you. 3496 03:22:45.520 --> 03:22:50.000 Yeah, Look, I obviously I think that if you if 3497 03:22:50.040 --> 03:22:51.879 you read a Quinus, I don't think he's like, okay, 3498 03:22:51.920 --> 03:22:54.280 so there's this natural theology thing, and then they're like 3499 03:22:55.319 --> 03:22:56.120 they're built. 3500 03:22:55.959 --> 03:22:57.040 Upon a year. 3501 03:22:57.120 --> 03:22:59.959 You're no, that's absolutely what it is. The divine revelation. 3502 03:23:00.680 --> 03:23:04.520 Grace builds on nature, SuperNature builds on nature. Revelation builds 3503 03:23:04.559 --> 03:23:06.840 on first principles. So you're totally wrong. You don't even 3504 03:23:06.879 --> 03:23:11.159 know your tumenism. You don't know that that's basic tumism. 3505 03:23:12.360 --> 03:23:12.760 No I do. 3506 03:23:13.079 --> 03:23:18.319 I feel like I'm struggling to put into words exactly 3507 03:23:18.600 --> 03:23:19.280 where I think we're. 3508 03:23:19.440 --> 03:23:20.879 Well, maybe it's because you're wrong. 3509 03:23:23.159 --> 03:23:30.159 So okay, so you're asserting that these things happen. 3510 03:23:30.680 --> 03:23:33.319 Okay, So all I've done throughout the whole conversation is 3511 03:23:33.399 --> 03:23:36.840 illustrate that everything that your argument is built on arbitrariness 3512 03:23:36.959 --> 03:23:39.799 and ad hoc and these are the self evident principles 3513 03:23:39.840 --> 03:23:41.840 and we all just know this because it is. And 3514 03:23:42.000 --> 03:23:44.079 all I have to do is simply say why on 3515 03:23:44.239 --> 03:23:46.559 what basis? And if you start appealing to other things, 3516 03:23:46.600 --> 03:23:47.840 guess what? Then they're not self evident. 3517 03:23:48.479 --> 03:23:50.959 But can you appeal to radical down for any position? 3518 03:23:51.520 --> 03:23:51.799 Say what? 3519 03:23:52.000 --> 03:23:54.879 I just couldn't want to kield a radical down for 3520 03:23:54.920 --> 03:23:57.520 any position. I don't see how that that's truly an issue. 3521 03:23:59.239 --> 03:24:02.079 It doesn't even ass necessarily until radical doubts. These are 3522 03:24:02.159 --> 03:24:05.840 just defeaters for your arbitra In ess, you. 3523 03:24:05.879 --> 03:24:08.680 Could just say that any any use line of argumentation 3524 03:24:08.799 --> 03:24:11.920 is arbitrary. It doesn't it seems like you could. 3525 03:24:12.159 --> 03:24:14.680 No, No, it doesn't mean any any position is arbitrary. 3526 03:24:14.760 --> 03:24:17.360 So your answer is that every position is arbitrary. 3527 03:24:18.200 --> 03:24:20.360 No, No, I'm saying according if you want to, I'm 3528 03:24:20.399 --> 03:24:21.920 saying it in a radical debt doubt sense. 3529 03:24:21.959 --> 03:24:23.520 You can radically doubt what are we everything? 3530 03:24:23.600 --> 03:24:25.520 I don't know. I don't actually think you can. 3531 03:24:26.719 --> 03:24:28.799 Okay, So what sort of things can't you? 3532 03:24:29.639 --> 03:24:29.799 Well? 3533 03:24:29.879 --> 03:24:33.040 For example, I can't radically doubt the laws of logic 3534 03:24:33.239 --> 03:24:37.479 because I would be assuming them to engage in denying them. 3535 03:24:38.399 --> 03:24:40.520 Okay, And don't you think that like the law of 3536 03:24:40.559 --> 03:24:43.479 non contradiction, for example, is built on logic. 3537 03:24:44.520 --> 03:24:46.920 It is one of the classical laws of logic. It's 3538 03:24:46.920 --> 03:24:47.760 not built on logic. 3539 03:24:47.799 --> 03:24:52.280 It is logic correct correct, so or the like. 3540 03:24:53.879 --> 03:24:57.040 So I think you're confusing, like what a thing is 3541 03:24:57.280 --> 03:25:01.280 versus its justification. So we agree that there are laws 3542 03:25:01.319 --> 03:25:03.879 of logic. There's a law of non contradiction, but that's 3543 03:25:03.959 --> 03:25:06.319 different than giving an account for how it exists and 3544 03:25:06.360 --> 03:25:09.200 how it's the case. So those are two different questions. 3545 03:25:09.239 --> 03:25:11.959 So maybe you're confusing those two. So we both can 3546 03:25:12.079 --> 03:25:15.639 commonly agree that there's laws of logic, But on what 3547 03:25:15.760 --> 03:25:18.719 basis am I supposed to believe that Tonism in your 3548 03:25:18.719 --> 03:25:20.600 worldview can give an account for the laws of logic? 3549 03:25:21.200 --> 03:25:23.399 Well, so let me ask you this, So according to 3550 03:25:23.479 --> 03:25:28.159 Europe if I wasn't okay, so would you say that 3551 03:25:28.680 --> 03:25:34.360 somebody who has never received the revelation according you know, 3552 03:25:34.440 --> 03:25:37.239 according to the Christian worldview, or I guess to your 3553 03:25:37.360 --> 03:25:42.840 world viewing the orthodox worldview? That basically, like I said before, 3554 03:25:42.920 --> 03:25:44.879 like if they arrive at these conclusions, like if they're 3555 03:25:44.920 --> 03:25:49.399 able to talk about logic and the principle of non contradiction, 3556 03:25:49.680 --> 03:25:51.319 the principles of causation, that. 3557 03:25:51.360 --> 03:25:53.840 Doesn't mean they have an account for those things. Using 3558 03:25:53.920 --> 03:25:55.719 them is not the same thing as justifying them. 3559 03:25:56.319 --> 03:25:58.399 But you say that they are right, like they're recognizing 3560 03:25:58.479 --> 03:26:00.360 things that are real, but they're coming up out it 3561 03:26:00.639 --> 03:26:01.159 on their own. 3562 03:26:01.239 --> 03:26:02.000 How are they doing that? 3563 03:26:02.920 --> 03:26:05.719 They're real universal metaphor physical principles in the world. I 3564 03:26:05.760 --> 03:26:07.600 don't deny them or doubt them. I just don't think 3565 03:26:07.680 --> 03:26:09.280 that your argument's give an account for them. 3566 03:26:10.200 --> 03:26:12.360 Okay, okay, But so you think that they're out there 3567 03:26:12.399 --> 03:26:13.799 and that people can recognize them. 3568 03:26:14.079 --> 03:26:16.799 Of course, they're absolutely necessary for the possibility of predication. 3569 03:26:16.840 --> 03:26:18.000 They're transcendental categories. 3570 03:26:18.799 --> 03:26:19.399 Okay, So. 3571 03:26:22.040 --> 03:26:25.239 Okay, so people can recognize these things, but they're an 3572 03:26:25.319 --> 03:26:29.079 error about other They can recognize true things, but they 3573 03:26:29.159 --> 03:26:31.559 might be an error about other particular things. 3574 03:26:32.000 --> 03:26:34.319 They're typically, in your case, in error about how to 3575 03:26:34.360 --> 03:26:35.319 give an account for them. 3576 03:26:36.239 --> 03:26:40.559 Okay, so you would just so would you say that 3577 03:26:40.680 --> 03:26:42.600 my the conclusion. 3578 03:26:42.799 --> 03:26:45.360 We're using a thing is not an epistemic justification for 3579 03:26:45.440 --> 03:26:45.680 a thing. 3580 03:26:46.440 --> 03:26:49.040 I'm not saying. I'm not not even going there. 3581 03:26:49.239 --> 03:26:50.879 What I'm saying is that, Okay, So if I say 3582 03:26:51.920 --> 03:26:54.680 I believe that there is this law of non contradiction, 3583 03:26:54.840 --> 03:26:57.840 would you say that that's correct or incorrect based off 3584 03:26:57.879 --> 03:26:58.879 of how I justified. 3585 03:27:00.040 --> 03:27:02.159 You didn't give a justification. You just stated that you 3586 03:27:02.239 --> 03:27:04.440 believe in it. I'm saying that, what do you think 3587 03:27:04.479 --> 03:27:05.200 a justification is? 3588 03:27:05.280 --> 03:27:05.440 First? 3589 03:27:05.479 --> 03:27:07.120 Maybe that's the confusion. What do you think everystem of 3590 03:27:07.200 --> 03:27:07.840 justification is? 3591 03:27:08.920 --> 03:27:13.360 Well, what I'm saying is how one justifies it. If 3592 03:27:13.600 --> 03:27:15.680 I'm saying if they justify it properly, then you would 3593 03:27:15.680 --> 03:27:18.399 obviously say it's proper If they justify it in an 3594 03:27:18.680 --> 03:27:20.680 incorrect way, you would say it's would you say that 3595 03:27:20.719 --> 03:27:22.159 it's completely incorrect. 3596 03:27:21.799 --> 03:27:22.040 Then. 3597 03:27:23.479 --> 03:27:25.120 No, it would just mean that they don't have good 3598 03:27:25.159 --> 03:27:27.520 reasons for believing in it. It still can still be true. 3599 03:27:27.920 --> 03:27:31.760 Like I mean, I let's say I wash my hands 3600 03:27:31.799 --> 03:27:33.399 every day after I go to the bathroom because I 3601 03:27:33.399 --> 03:27:35.920 think it'll make bitcoin go up. I mean, it's still 3602 03:27:36.040 --> 03:27:37.719 a good thing to wash your hands after you use 3603 03:27:37.760 --> 03:27:40.559 the bathroom. But I have bad reasons for washing my hands. 3604 03:27:40.760 --> 03:27:42.719 So it doesn't make the washing of the hands falls. 3605 03:27:42.799 --> 03:27:44.239 It just means I have bad reasons for it. 3606 03:27:44.920 --> 03:27:47.120 So this this seems to me like when we look 3607 03:27:47.239 --> 03:27:50.959 at we look at other other religions, we say, Okay, 3608 03:27:51.040 --> 03:27:52.200 they do believe in God. 3609 03:27:52.440 --> 03:27:54.440 They just they do so for wrong reasons, or. 3610 03:27:54.479 --> 03:27:56.760 They do so, No, they don't have the right deity. 3611 03:27:57.680 --> 03:28:00.920 They do they they're they're not a on the right God. 3612 03:28:01.959 --> 03:28:03.840 So do you think that I'm that I have like 3613 03:28:03.920 --> 03:28:06.639 a different principle of non contradiction than you do if 3614 03:28:06.680 --> 03:28:08.040 I justify it wrongly. 3615 03:28:09.360 --> 03:28:11.639 How does that relate to the false theology of a 3616 03:28:11.680 --> 03:28:14.559 false religion and not the principle non contradiction. I'm confused 3617 03:28:14.600 --> 03:28:17.399 about You're asking one question about the principle non contradiction. 3618 03:28:17.479 --> 03:28:20.360 They're saying, but the Pagan's attained to the true God. 3619 03:28:20.879 --> 03:28:22.200 These are these are different questions. 3620 03:28:22.840 --> 03:28:27.600 So what I'm saying is that there's Okay, so I 3621 03:28:27.760 --> 03:28:30.840 can know that there is I could come to the 3622 03:28:30.879 --> 03:28:33.239 conclusion that there is a law of non contradiction. I'm 3623 03:28:33.280 --> 03:28:35.280 saying that that's akin to yeah, I could come to 3624 03:28:35.319 --> 03:28:39.360 the conclusion ont of the things about the world through reason, 3625 03:28:39.440 --> 03:28:42.600 And I'm saying, okay, so you could reason. It seems 3626 03:28:42.639 --> 03:28:43.159 like the whole. 3627 03:28:43.479 --> 03:28:46.239 It's a false analogy because saying that there's a law 3628 03:28:46.239 --> 03:28:48.319 of non contradiction you believe in it and utilizing it 3629 03:28:48.479 --> 03:28:50.200 is not the same thing as saying and I also 3630 03:28:50.280 --> 03:28:52.120 believe that there's one God, so therefore it's all the 3631 03:28:52.159 --> 03:28:56.239 same God. It's a non sequitor. It doesn't follow. I mean, 3632 03:28:56.280 --> 03:28:58.120 do you think do you think Muslims and Christians worship 3633 03:28:58.120 --> 03:28:58.520 the same God? 3634 03:28:59.159 --> 03:28:59.360 Yes? 3635 03:29:00.120 --> 03:29:05.760 How I mean everything we've talked about is the exact 3636 03:29:05.799 --> 03:29:08.120 reason why that's not the case. I mean, I mean, 3637 03:29:08.200 --> 03:29:10.639 all you do you want do you know what Muslims teach? 3638 03:29:11.520 --> 03:29:11.719 Yes? 3639 03:29:12.120 --> 03:29:14.760 What do they say about God or the Old Testament? 3640 03:29:15.879 --> 03:29:19.719 So that they professed how he that. There's this difine. 3641 03:29:20.000 --> 03:29:21.040 What do they say about the Father? 3642 03:29:23.799 --> 03:29:26.959 The Father? They they don't believe in a trinity, so 3643 03:29:27.040 --> 03:29:28.879 there's they say there is only the Father. 3644 03:29:29.000 --> 03:29:29.840 Basically, I know. 3645 03:29:30.000 --> 03:29:31.559 So you don't know, you do? You don't even know 3646 03:29:31.639 --> 03:29:33.639 the basics of Muslim theology. They do not believe God 3647 03:29:33.719 --> 03:29:36.520 is father. They specifically are premised on denying God his father. 3648 03:29:36.719 --> 03:29:37.680 So you don't know who you're talking about. 3649 03:29:38.360 --> 03:29:40.120 What I mean to say is that they know. 3650 03:29:40.479 --> 03:29:42.440 Just say you don't know. Why are you acting like 3651 03:29:42.520 --> 03:29:44.440 you knew when you said He's father? They do not 3652 03:29:44.520 --> 03:29:45.159 believe his father. 3653 03:29:46.000 --> 03:29:48.520 Yeah, I knew that. They don't say that. I understand that. 3654 03:29:48.520 --> 03:29:49.079 They don't say that. 3655 03:29:49.200 --> 03:29:52.600 No, they specifically deny that God has any sons and 3656 03:29:52.680 --> 03:29:55.360 he is not a father. I are that okay, But 3657 03:29:55.399 --> 03:29:59.000 you understand one of the most fundamental names or characteristics 3658 03:29:59.040 --> 03:30:00.639 of God in the Old Testament is God the Father? 3659 03:30:00.799 --> 03:30:00.920 Right? 3660 03:30:01.719 --> 03:30:02.040 Correct? 3661 03:30:02.680 --> 03:30:05.159 And yet you say, sit you saying that Muslims and 3662 03:30:05.200 --> 03:30:10.079 Christians worship the same God when they explicitly deny God 3663 03:30:10.120 --> 03:30:14.559 the Father. You see how silly this is. It may 3664 03:30:14.600 --> 03:30:17.479 seem silly, No, it is silly. It doesn't seem that way. 3665 03:30:18.440 --> 03:30:18.719 It is. 3666 03:30:20.479 --> 03:30:23.120 So all I'm saying is that they have come to 3667 03:30:23.200 --> 03:30:26.639 these so they've got me. They're misunderstanding God. 3668 03:30:26.680 --> 03:30:28.520 They don't know God as he truly is. 3669 03:30:29.040 --> 03:30:32.760 They specifically hate Christ or anti Christ, deny the Father, 3670 03:30:33.520 --> 03:30:37.760 and you're saying you worship the same God. Correct, Yes, 3671 03:30:37.879 --> 03:30:38.479 you're stupid. 3672 03:30:40.559 --> 03:30:42.799 Look, I'm not trying to be not trying to be stupid. 3673 03:30:42.799 --> 03:30:44.440 I'm just saying that these people, they are in error. 3674 03:30:44.719 --> 03:30:45.719 I'm not saying that those things are. 3675 03:30:45.879 --> 03:30:49.680 They explicitly deny the fundamental name that you that you 3676 03:30:49.840 --> 03:30:51.959 recognize as the God of the Old Testament, and you 3677 03:30:52.040 --> 03:30:53.760 say it's still the same God. You're stupid. 3678 03:30:54.440 --> 03:30:57.159 They are. I'm saying that they're attempting to worship God. 3679 03:30:57.360 --> 03:30:59.479 It doesn't matter what the attempt is. That people in 3680 03:30:59.600 --> 03:31:01.799 acts are tempting to worship God and calling him sticks 3681 03:31:01.799 --> 03:31:07.479 and rocks, and that doesn't it doesn't attain. No, this 3682 03:31:07.600 --> 03:31:09.600 is how stupid and obstinate you are. Because Paul says 3683 03:31:09.639 --> 03:31:12.159 it's an unknown God and you're an idolatry. It doesn't work. 3684 03:31:12.680 --> 03:31:14.360 Do you think Muslims have the faith of Abraham? 3685 03:31:15.079 --> 03:31:15.920 No, they did not. 3686 03:31:17.479 --> 03:31:22.120 You just contradict yourself. Because Vatican twos and tates Vatican 3687 03:31:22.159 --> 03:31:23.840 two says they have the faith of Abraham, and. 3688 03:31:26.000 --> 03:31:26.879 They claim to Professor. 3689 03:31:26.959 --> 03:31:29.159 No, it doesn't. I'm not talking about Lugentium. I'm talking 3690 03:31:29.159 --> 03:31:32.399 about Tat's claim. So this is where you're again ignorant. 3691 03:31:33.200 --> 03:31:36.520 Just as Abraham, who with the faith of Abe Abraham 3692 03:31:36.600 --> 03:31:39.319 takes Islam takes pleasure in linking itself to God. 3693 03:31:41.680 --> 03:31:43.920 I'm sorry, let me pull that up real quick. 3694 03:31:44.639 --> 03:31:47.879 Tte three, not lumin Gentium sixteen, No Tte three. 3695 03:31:51.120 --> 03:31:57.200 Okay? Is there a paragraph three? Three? 3696 03:31:57.600 --> 03:31:57.920 Is okay? 3697 03:31:57.959 --> 03:31:58.479 Paraph three? 3698 03:32:01.399 --> 03:32:04.319 It says, okay, So they adore in the Church regards 3699 03:32:04.319 --> 03:32:06.280 with esteem ust the Muslims. They adore the one God, 3700 03:32:06.360 --> 03:32:09.319 living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all powerful, creator 3701 03:32:09.319 --> 03:32:10.200 of heaven and earth, who. 3702 03:32:10.079 --> 03:32:10.760 Has spoken of men. 3703 03:32:11.280 --> 03:32:14.479 They take pains to submit wholeheartedly even to his inscrutable decrees, 3704 03:32:14.639 --> 03:32:17.440 just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure. 3705 03:32:17.159 --> 03:32:21.120 In linking itself submitting to God. Is that where you're 3706 03:32:21.120 --> 03:32:21.479 getting at? 3707 03:32:21.559 --> 03:32:24.319 Or yeah, I missed the passage? Okay, but what does 3708 03:32:24.360 --> 03:32:26.959 that say that they It says what it says, don't lie? 3709 03:32:28.360 --> 03:32:31.319 I honestly, I I really I don't. I don't think 3710 03:32:31.360 --> 03:32:34.079 your your take on this is is I think you're 3711 03:32:34.280 --> 03:32:34.879 you're conflating. 3712 03:32:35.040 --> 03:32:37.440 The whole chat sees what it says and sees you 3713 03:32:37.719 --> 03:32:41.319 right here, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of 3714 03:32:41.440 --> 03:32:45.319 Islam takes pleasure in linking itself submitted to God. Now 3715 03:32:45.399 --> 03:32:47.920 look at the last sentence in that paragraph. Finally, they 3716 03:32:48.000 --> 03:32:51.799 have the moral life and worship God through prayer, alms giving, 3717 03:32:51.840 --> 03:32:52.319 and festing. 3718 03:32:53.159 --> 03:32:56.079 Yeah, I think that worship is not the same as 3719 03:32:56.120 --> 03:32:56.959 having divine faith. 3720 03:32:58.360 --> 03:33:01.120 That's even worst worst because it says they adore the 3721 03:33:01.159 --> 03:33:05.159 One True God in Lemgitim sixteen and they worship him. Correct, 3722 03:33:05.719 --> 03:33:07.760 that's not true. They don't you're do you know notice 3723 03:33:07.760 --> 03:33:10.600 saying your own popes historically called this the wicked anti 3724 03:33:10.680 --> 03:33:13.079 Christ religion. How do they worship and serve the One 3725 03:33:13.079 --> 03:33:15.200 True God like Abraham if it's an Antichrist religion. 3726 03:33:16.239 --> 03:33:20.040 So, like I said, worship just because somebody's worships like 3727 03:33:20.120 --> 03:33:22.280 worshiping something, does not mean that they have divine faith. 3728 03:33:23.360 --> 03:33:26.079 It says the faith of Islam is the faith of Abraham, 3729 03:33:26.239 --> 03:33:31.120 just as Abraham. They take pains to submit wholeheartedly to 3730 03:33:31.239 --> 03:33:36.079 God and his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham. Do you 3731 03:33:36.159 --> 03:33:38.600 think Abraham submitted to a Unitarian God. 3732 03:33:40.239 --> 03:33:40.360 All? 3733 03:33:40.440 --> 03:33:43.239 It's okay, So you're a liar and you have to 3734 03:33:43.360 --> 03:33:44.719 reword what it clearly says. 3735 03:33:45.799 --> 03:33:47.719 Again, look, I'm not trying to be I. 3736 03:33:47.719 --> 03:33:49.239 Don't care what you're trying to be. This is because 3737 03:33:49.280 --> 03:33:51.520 you're so hard headed and you're an idolator. You think 3738 03:33:51.600 --> 03:33:54.360 the stupid heresy is true. You make me mad when 3739 03:33:54.360 --> 03:33:55.079 you say this stuff. 3740 03:33:55.879 --> 03:33:59.639 Okay, So the way that I'm from just going through word. 3741 03:33:59.520 --> 03:34:01.639 By word, do you have to yap and try to 3742 03:34:01.719 --> 03:34:03.879 make this say something that it doesn't clearly say? How 3743 03:34:03.920 --> 03:34:05.479 come everybody else can figure out what this says? 3744 03:34:07.360 --> 03:34:08.120 Everybody else? 3745 03:34:09.799 --> 03:34:12.600 I mean, did Francis sign a joint declaration with a 3746 03:34:12.639 --> 03:34:14.879 granty Mom that God wills all the world religions? Did 3747 03:34:14.920 --> 03:34:16.040 that happen in twenty nineteen? 3748 03:34:16.959 --> 03:34:20.000 And you know about the distinction between pass if an 3749 03:34:20.000 --> 03:34:21.000 active will? Oh? 3750 03:34:21.120 --> 03:34:23.479 Okay, and what was that at work today? When he 3751 03:34:23.559 --> 03:34:25.840 said the exact same thing about all the world religions? 3752 03:34:28.520 --> 03:34:31.200 Which which them are? You're referring to exactly. 3753 03:34:31.159 --> 03:34:33.520 The statement that is going all over twitter today from 3754 03:34:33.559 --> 03:34:34.079 the Vatican. 3755 03:34:34.479 --> 03:34:35.200 Well, yeah, there was. 3756 03:34:35.280 --> 03:34:37.479 There was two statements that have been going around last 3757 03:34:37.479 --> 03:34:37.799 few years. 3758 03:34:37.799 --> 03:34:40.000 Okay, and so it has nothing. No, the new statement, 3759 03:34:40.600 --> 03:34:44.000 the new statement that he wills the religions and not 3760 03:34:44.159 --> 03:34:46.559 one religion is better than another. It's all diversity. So 3761 03:34:47.079 --> 03:34:50.680 he says there shouldn't be uniformity of the religions, there 3762 03:34:50.719 --> 03:34:53.799 should be unity in the world religions. So that's an 3763 03:34:53.840 --> 03:34:56.600 even stronger statement than what was in the twenty nineteen document. 3764 03:34:58.719 --> 03:35:02.440 So obviously I heard you mentioned earlier. You're like, oh, 3765 03:35:02.520 --> 03:35:05.639 this is the code that's going around and and I haven't. 3766 03:35:05.680 --> 03:35:09.280 I haven't looked into it enough myself in the last. 3767 03:35:09.280 --> 03:35:12.159 So again, is this the same church that calls the crusades, 3768 03:35:12.200 --> 03:35:13.959 the one that says that it is the church regards 3769 03:35:14.000 --> 03:35:14.959 with esteem the Muslims. 3770 03:35:17.040 --> 03:35:18.079 Yes, I believe that. 3771 03:35:18.600 --> 03:35:21.760 And you don't see a contradiction there. You can esteem 3772 03:35:21.799 --> 03:35:27.000 the Muslims as you call crusades against this anti christ religion, correct, Yeah, 3773 03:35:27.079 --> 03:35:28.239 and that's why you're stupid. 3774 03:35:29.239 --> 03:35:31.719 I look, I'm not trying to So what of the 3775 03:35:31.760 --> 03:35:34.200 things is that you can you can say that there 3776 03:35:34.479 --> 03:35:38.079 are there's positive things even if they're in error. 3777 03:35:38.159 --> 03:35:44.639 Does it say just as Abraham help me open? Okay, 3778 03:35:44.719 --> 03:35:46.159 So you and you didn't want to, So what you 3779 03:35:46.239 --> 03:35:49.079 wanted to cope and talk around this and you closed it. 3780 03:35:50.600 --> 03:35:52.360 No, I just I just I have I opened up 3781 03:35:52.600 --> 03:35:55.319 the Twitter page again. I just have to had to 3782 03:35:55.360 --> 03:36:00.559 open it up again like the tab. So they adore 3783 03:36:00.680 --> 03:36:02.920 the One God living in, subsisting in himself, merciful and 3784 03:36:02.959 --> 03:36:03.559 all powerful. 3785 03:36:03.639 --> 03:36:05.639 The career of the happening is adoration, worship. 3786 03:36:07.079 --> 03:36:11.120 Yes, who has spoken to men? They take pains to 3787 03:36:11.159 --> 03:36:12.440 submit wholehardly to us. 3788 03:36:12.520 --> 03:36:14.719 Even what is the One God? By the way, before 3789 03:36:14.760 --> 03:36:16.520 we go to that, that isn't the trinity? So you 3790 03:36:16.559 --> 03:36:18.680 see this is the point right away. That's natural theology. 3791 03:36:19.079 --> 03:36:22.760 Muslims worship the same one God, living and subsisting in himself. 3792 03:36:23.079 --> 03:36:24.559 Do you understand that there is no such thing as 3793 03:36:24.639 --> 03:36:29.239 the one God that lives in subsists in himself. That's unitarian. 3794 03:36:29.799 --> 03:36:32.520 The One God is only trinitarian. The Old Testament reveals 3795 03:36:32.520 --> 03:36:32.959 a trinity. 3796 03:36:33.879 --> 03:36:36.239 Where are you saying that you think there's more there's 3797 03:36:36.280 --> 03:36:38.040 more than one substance inside the Trinity? 3798 03:36:38.159 --> 03:36:39.840 Did I say there's more than one substance? What the 3799 03:36:39.840 --> 03:36:40.719 heck are you talking about? 3800 03:36:41.440 --> 03:36:44.719 Okay, the subsistence is how do you understand subsistence? 3801 03:36:44.719 --> 03:36:48.040 Then it says the one God living and subsisting in himself. 3802 03:36:48.760 --> 03:36:52.319 That's a unitarian statement. There is no one God that 3803 03:36:52.440 --> 03:36:56.959 lives and subsists in himself. That's unitarian. There's only the Trinity, 3804 03:36:57.280 --> 03:37:00.239 the Father, eternally generating the Son and eternally spy reading 3805 03:37:00.280 --> 03:37:01.760 the Spirit. That's all. That's the only God there is. 3806 03:37:02.360 --> 03:37:04.000 So this first statement is not true. 3807 03:37:04.719 --> 03:37:06.760 So you don't believe that the Trinity subsists in itself. 3808 03:37:08.399 --> 03:37:11.239 The Trinity does not subsist in itself. No, that's heretical. 3809 03:37:11.319 --> 03:37:12.360 This is why you're against stupid. 3810 03:37:14.280 --> 03:37:15.360 I'm not trying to try. 3811 03:37:16.520 --> 03:37:18.600 No, but you don't have the Trinity. That's the point. 3812 03:37:20.159 --> 03:37:22.360 There's that is false to say that Trinity lives and 3813 03:37:22.399 --> 03:37:29.719 subsists in it himself. He is the Father. He is 3814 03:37:29.799 --> 03:37:35.479 the Father, I'm he There is no one God. That 3815 03:37:35.600 --> 03:37:38.239 is not a reference to the entire triad. It doesn't that. 3816 03:37:38.399 --> 03:37:40.760 That's not the case. What does the creed say, I 3817 03:37:40.840 --> 03:37:41.639 believe in one God? 3818 03:37:41.760 --> 03:37:41.799 What? 3819 03:37:45.440 --> 03:37:49.239 So that's monarchical trinitarianism. This is saying that Muslims, together 3820 03:37:49.319 --> 03:37:54.120 with Christians, worship the one living God who subsists in himself. 3821 03:37:54.559 --> 03:37:57.879 That's unitarian. That doesn't exist. There is no such thing 3822 03:37:57.879 --> 03:38:03.239 as one God himself. That's Unitarians. 3823 03:38:03.319 --> 03:38:05.799 As I'm understanding, this is just saying that God exists 3824 03:38:06.200 --> 03:38:06.959 by an oven like. 3825 03:38:07.680 --> 03:38:10.479 That's not true. The Father does not exist in himself. 3826 03:38:10.600 --> 03:38:13.520 He exists with the Son and the Spirit for all eternity. 3827 03:38:13.959 --> 03:38:15.600 The whole point of the whole point is to have 3828 03:38:15.680 --> 03:38:18.479 a commonality with Muslims, which are Unitarians. So they make 3829 03:38:18.520 --> 03:38:22.879 a Unitarian statement and this is not trinitarian. There is 3830 03:38:22.959 --> 03:38:25.360 no Unitarian God. And then you tackle on Trinity down 3831 03:38:25.360 --> 03:38:26.879 the road. That's your tomistic error. 3832 03:38:29.280 --> 03:38:30.559 No, I don't. I don't believe that there is a 3833 03:38:30.600 --> 03:38:31.159 generic God. 3834 03:38:31.239 --> 03:38:34.280 That's the yes you do, and it's right here now 3835 03:38:34.399 --> 03:38:37.319 you're lying because you're arguing for natural theology and you, 3836 03:38:37.440 --> 03:38:39.440 by the way, you said while back there is a 3837 03:38:39.520 --> 03:38:40.840 generic God. What do you mean, don't believe in a 3838 03:38:40.879 --> 03:38:41.280 generic God? 3839 03:38:41.360 --> 03:38:41.719 Yes you do. 3840 03:38:42.120 --> 03:38:42.760 Why are you lying? 3841 03:38:44.799 --> 03:38:46.799 I've never said that there's a there's a generic God. 3842 03:38:47.040 --> 03:38:50.000 By arguing for natural theology that is generic lowest common 3843 03:38:50.000 --> 03:38:50.760 nominator God. 3844 03:38:51.559 --> 03:38:54.120 It's just the things you can know about those. 3845 03:38:54.440 --> 03:38:56.639 And we saw those were arbitrary. And the things that 3846 03:38:56.719 --> 03:38:58.879 you can know are the things that aquinas Lists and 3847 03:38:58.879 --> 03:38:59.600 Symagotrid and. 3848 03:38:59.639 --> 03:39:02.120 Chiles I'm sorry, what's you saying. 3849 03:39:03.559 --> 03:39:05.680 The things that you can so called know about God 3850 03:39:05.760 --> 03:39:08.479 from natural theology are that he's absolutely simple, that he's 3851 03:39:08.479 --> 03:39:10.879 a temporal, that he's uncaused and noncomposite. Blah blah blah 3852 03:39:10.879 --> 03:39:18.040 blah blah. That's a Unitarian argument. That's a that's a 3853 03:39:18.159 --> 03:39:20.559 generic God, that is the generic God. That's the point. 3854 03:39:21.799 --> 03:39:24.440 You think that you can argue God without trinity that 3855 03:39:24.520 --> 03:39:25.159 doesn't exist. 3856 03:39:27.200 --> 03:39:30.399 Yeah, So I think the last time we talked to 3857 03:39:30.440 --> 03:39:31.760 I think this came out and I didn't really have 3858 03:39:31.760 --> 03:39:32.079 a chance. 3859 03:39:32.079 --> 03:39:33.600 Well, now I know why I've blocked you because of this. 3860 03:39:35.079 --> 03:39:36.920 Well we didn't. We did never even I never even 3861 03:39:36.959 --> 03:39:41.280 talked on this account before. But yeah, okay, I uh, 3862 03:39:42.559 --> 03:39:44.639 I'm sorry if I've made. 3863 03:39:44.680 --> 03:39:47.159 I mean, I just think that you're completely like hard 3864 03:39:47.239 --> 03:39:51.920 headed and engaged in the most ridiculous cazustrie. Because what's 3865 03:39:51.959 --> 03:39:58.120 the next sentence following which one who has spoken to 3866 03:39:58.200 --> 03:40:00.920 man they take pains? Do you think Muslims take pains 3867 03:40:00.959 --> 03:40:03.120 to submit to God's decrees just like Abraham? 3868 03:40:05.959 --> 03:40:07.920 I think that they're they're attempting to do so, just 3869 03:40:08.040 --> 03:40:11.120 like Abraham. So Abraham was receiving divine revelation. And I 3870 03:40:11.159 --> 03:40:13.399 don't believe that the Muslims are receiving divine revelation. I 3871 03:40:13.440 --> 03:40:14.639 think that they've taken certain things. 3872 03:40:14.840 --> 03:40:16.520 What does this say? I don't care what you think. 3873 03:40:16.600 --> 03:40:17.239 What does this say? 3874 03:40:18.799 --> 03:40:18.959 Oh? 3875 03:40:19.079 --> 03:40:19.319 I mean? 3876 03:40:20.159 --> 03:40:23.639 Does it say that Muslims submit to God just like Abraham? 3877 03:40:26.520 --> 03:40:26.559 So? 3878 03:40:27.200 --> 03:40:29.760 Does it say that? Just read the text, dude. 3879 03:40:30.239 --> 03:40:32.159 It says they take pains to submit whole hardily to 3880 03:40:32.239 --> 03:40:35.280 even his inscrutable decrease, just as Abraham, with whom the. 3881 03:40:35.280 --> 03:40:38.200 Fame of HISLELM takes pleasure in winking itself submitted to God. 3882 03:40:45.159 --> 03:40:45.719 What does that mean? 3883 03:40:45.799 --> 03:40:45.959 Say? 3884 03:40:47.719 --> 03:40:49.520 So, just as Abraham submitted to God? 3885 03:40:49.559 --> 03:40:51.680 And Muslims. So you gotta read it for the fifth time. 3886 03:40:51.719 --> 03:40:53.200 What does it mean? What is it clearly saying? 3887 03:40:55.440 --> 03:40:57.200 Ye again? 3888 03:40:57.360 --> 03:41:01.520 So yeah, good, get out of here. I'm so sick 3889 03:41:01.559 --> 03:41:04.879 of these people. These are the most un dishonest pieces 3890 03:41:04.920 --> 03:41:06.920 of trash. Out of here. I'm so sick of it. 3891 03:41:11.280 --> 03:41:25.360 Every Well, now I know why I blocked him, and 3892 03:41:25.479 --> 03:41:27.000 please go back and block him. I don't know every 3893 03:41:27.040 --> 03:41:29.200 want to talk to him again. I just I can't 3894 03:41:29.239 --> 03:41:48.440 take these people anymore. I'm mute, all right, he can't connect? 3895 03:41:54.040 --> 03:42:06.399 H I mean the pope literally prays in mosques towards Mecca, 3896 03:42:07.000 --> 03:42:12.280 and this guy is jumping through every hoop, leaps and 3897 03:42:12.399 --> 03:42:15.360 bounds in every possible mental gymnastics, which, by the way, 3898 03:42:15.719 --> 03:42:18.799 he never even gave any actual mental gymnastics. It was like, all, 3899 03:42:19.040 --> 03:42:21.440 just like, I don't think it's saying that. I don't 3900 03:42:21.479 --> 03:42:26.200 think that, dude, I don't care what you think. And again, like, 3901 03:42:26.280 --> 03:42:29.920 if you can't see this stuff, like, go be with Fransis, 3902 03:42:29.959 --> 03:42:34.159 then go be in your schedules church, Go put stuff 3903 03:42:34.200 --> 03:42:35.840 in your butt like all your other guys want to do. 3904 03:42:39.000 --> 03:42:40.760 That's what you guys want, that's the religion you want. 3905 03:42:40.840 --> 03:42:43.040 Go for it, man. I mean again, if you can't 3906 03:42:43.079 --> 03:42:48.479 see this, that this is in your face, like at 3907 03:42:48.479 --> 03:42:50.760 a certain point, there's nothing else that can be it 3908 03:42:50.840 --> 03:43:02.200 can be said, Is there anybody else? Be sure to 3909 03:43:02.239 --> 03:43:04.280 head over to chalk dot com. You're seeing me wear 3910 03:43:04.360 --> 03:43:17.639 the chalk dot com shirt. Chalk dot com. Be sure 3911 03:43:17.680 --> 03:43:19.680 and have another user go j forty four life to 3912 03:43:19.719 --> 03:43:23.000 get forty four all those all those great products, including 3913 03:43:23.280 --> 03:43:26.120 the performance stack there that includes the tonk Catale that's 3914 03:43:26.159 --> 03:43:32.600 my favorite. I highly recommend that if you don't keep 3915 03:43:32.600 --> 03:43:35.200 it on topic, Uh, you're booted. What do you want? 3916 03:43:36.440 --> 03:43:37.280 Hello? Uh? 3917 03:43:38.559 --> 03:43:42.000 Okay, So I wasn't really ready, but I'm gonna go 3918 03:43:42.280 --> 03:43:43.600 just because there's nobody else calling. 3919 03:43:43.840 --> 03:43:45.639 You weren't ready. Why'd you request to speak if you 3920 03:43:45.680 --> 03:43:47.159 weren't ready, Well. 3921 03:43:47.079 --> 03:43:49.040 Because you're I thought you were gonna leave, and I 3922 03:43:49.159 --> 03:43:51.479 wanted to ask you or just say a few things. 3923 03:43:52.399 --> 03:43:55.639 So now I got to regain my. 3924 03:43:58.680 --> 03:44:02.200 All Right, So when you said natural theology, I mean, 3925 03:44:04.879 --> 03:44:05.559 I don't really know. 3926 03:44:06.159 --> 03:44:08.440 What are you doing? Like, just trash and ship over there? 3927 03:44:09.520 --> 03:44:11.920 Get out of here. I can't do it, man, I'm sorry, 3928 03:44:11.959 --> 03:44:15.600 I can't. I just can't do this stuff anymore. Tonight. 3929 03:44:21.799 --> 03:44:24.680 Dues over there like wrecking his car crash and trying 3930 03:44:24.719 --> 03:44:30.520 to talk sounds like a sounds like a comedy comedy routine. 3931 03:44:31.200 --> 03:44:35.719 Dudes over there doing three three stooges. Uh is Bromco 3932 03:44:35.840 --> 03:44:38.040 J forty to get forty percent off those great products. 3933 03:44:38.360 --> 03:44:43.040 Head on over to chalk dot com. I'm not gonna 3934 03:44:43.319 --> 03:44:45.680 I'm not gonna do another hour on freaking natural theologoy man? 3935 03:44:46.079 --> 03:44:46.399 What what? 3936 03:44:48.440 --> 03:44:48.719 Hello? 3937 03:44:49.719 --> 03:44:49.760 What? 3938 03:44:56.200 --> 03:44:56.239 What? 3939 03:45:08.520 --> 03:45:10.520 How many people were in here all the way? We 3940 03:45:10.559 --> 03:45:12.040 got up to almost two thousands to night. That was 3941 03:45:12.079 --> 03:45:16.440 pretty crazy. Anybody have any topics that are not natural theology. 3942 03:45:20.120 --> 03:45:23.440 I had nineteen hundred to That was my first unless 3943 03:45:23.680 --> 03:45:26.680 somebody dumped into the chat that I wasn't aware. Tonight 3944 03:45:26.840 --> 03:45:31.840 was I think our biggest, our biggest organic audience of 3945 03:45:31.959 --> 03:45:35.159 hitting nineteen hundred. But you know, I probably should stop 3946 03:45:35.520 --> 03:45:37.920 now because I'm getting getting a little too sassy. That 3947 03:45:37.959 --> 03:45:41.360 guy was getting me really frustrated because just the constant 3948 03:45:41.479 --> 03:45:45.200 of twose sassy, he wasn't actually being that mean. It 3949 03:45:45.280 --> 03:45:50.360 was just being so hard headed. Famine, famine, Sam. 3950 03:45:55.479 --> 03:45:56.000 How's it going? 3951 03:45:56.079 --> 03:45:56.200 Man? 3952 03:45:56.719 --> 03:45:57.159 What's up? 3953 03:45:58.040 --> 03:46:01.799 I was op with an argument today talking about God 3954 03:46:01.920 --> 03:46:04.680 created evil. I don't know if you'd be willing to 3955 03:46:04.719 --> 03:46:05.520 speak on that at all. 3956 03:46:07.159 --> 03:46:10.120 Well, it's an impossibility because evil, in our view has 3957 03:46:10.159 --> 03:46:14.760 no substance or being or real real existence. It's a privation, 3958 03:46:15.040 --> 03:46:18.120 so it's not a thing. And therefore everything that God 3959 03:46:18.319 --> 03:46:21.520 created has being or substance. And God created everything and 3960 03:46:21.680 --> 03:46:23.879 declared it to be good. So there's no way that 3961 03:46:23.959 --> 03:46:27.200 God could create evil. You would be a Manichean if 3962 03:46:27.239 --> 03:46:27.600 you thought that. 3963 03:46:29.079 --> 03:46:33.680 Oh okay, okay, so okay, could you maybe so? 3964 03:46:33.799 --> 03:46:35.639 I hate to ask dumb the argument down a little 3965 03:46:35.639 --> 03:46:37.680 bit because I was hit with that from a Muslim today, 3966 03:46:37.680 --> 03:46:39.000 and I didn't really know how to combat it. 3967 03:46:39.079 --> 03:46:45.319 But well, again, so if God creates evil, then God 3968 03:46:45.479 --> 03:46:48.319 is both evil and good because he's the source of 3969 03:46:48.360 --> 03:46:51.239 good and evil, and thus good and evil become relativized. 3970 03:46:51.639 --> 03:46:55.000 And that's probably why Islam says, yeah, Allah is the 3971 03:46:55.120 --> 03:46:58.479 greatest of deceivers. He's also the best at doing evil, 3972 03:46:58.719 --> 03:47:02.159 as he is good relativized as good and evil. It 3973 03:47:02.239 --> 03:47:05.799 makes the religion incoherent and nonsensical. And it's equivalent to 3974 03:47:05.959 --> 03:47:13.000 the ancient Zoroastrian dualist Manichean position that that good and 3975 03:47:13.239 --> 03:47:17.079 evil are kind of these eternal principles that exist. We 3976 03:47:17.239 --> 03:47:20.280 don't believe that evil has any substance. It's not a thing. 3977 03:47:20.760 --> 03:47:24.280 It's a privation, a lack an act against the good, 3978 03:47:24.879 --> 03:47:27.040 but it's not a thing that God created. 3979 03:47:28.079 --> 03:47:30.799 Okay, do you have any I guess anyone you would 3980 03:47:30.920 --> 03:47:32.680 recommend specifically to read on it. 3981 03:47:35.280 --> 03:47:40.159 Athanasius, the Church Fathers, they discuss the ontology of evil. 3982 03:47:43.079 --> 03:47:49.200 I think in Adgentes, Ethanaians discusses it. The Kappadian Is 3983 03:47:49.239 --> 03:47:50.799 discussed it, but I don't remember where else the top 3984 03:47:50.840 --> 03:48:01.000 of my head. I would just it got like, uh, 3985 03:48:01.479 --> 03:48:04.959 Church fathers on evil as privation or something like that, 3986 03:48:05.079 --> 03:48:07.000 and you would probably you probably get some good articles 3987 03:48:07.479 --> 03:48:08.200 on that, all right. 3988 03:48:10.040 --> 03:48:11.280 Uh, not the. 3989 03:48:13.120 --> 03:48:15.200 Series of debates that I thought we would have tonight. 3990 03:48:15.280 --> 03:48:17.760 They definitely went a different different direction that I expected. 3991 03:48:18.440 --> 03:48:23.959 Still very interesting discussion tonight, But thank you guys heading 3992 03:48:24.000 --> 03:48:25.799 over to talk dot com. Use promo co J forty 3993 03:48:25.840 --> 03:48:28.319 four Life, get access to those great products, and I 3994 03:48:28.399 --> 03:48:31.120 will see you soon, maybe tomorrow. We'll go back to 3995 03:48:31.200 --> 03:48:32.239 the normal stream. 3996 03:48:32.479 --> 03:48:32.600 Uh. 3997 03:48:32.840 --> 03:48:35.959 This was a diversion because because of Francis, so Frank 3998 03:48:36.680 --> 03:48:39.799 kept doubling down, so I thought I would open it 3999 03:48:39.920 --> 03:48:41.559 up for this. Everybody, have a good night.