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Speaker 1: So in.

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Speaker 2: So insane, it's so insane.

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Speaker 3: Bunker bunker, bunker locker.

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Speaker 4: I got married. I got married to a funko who.

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Speaker 5: We got wedded, come joined in the subway, he shocked.

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Speaker 4: I am married, I'm married.

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Speaker 3: To a funco. But do we get joined?

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Speaker 4: Go watch the singer subway? Who shot or.

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Speaker 6: Specimens and biscuits and minerals they come to me to

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my whole life is spent?

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Speaker 7: What to h.

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Speaker 3: M hmm, what of.

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Speaker 5: I'm married to a longer who but we got wedding,

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but we got joining in the subway?

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Speaker 8: Shut over the roads and minerals they come to you

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to listen, and minerals they come from this year too,

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dot for for.

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Speaker 6: Fuck.

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Speaker 3: I got married, I got married to my fult goober.

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Speaker 5: Oh we got waded, we got joined in the subwhere

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he shut.

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Speaker 7: The sight?

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Speaker 6: What should I do with the first sight? Put it

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in my head, throw it on the ground.

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Speaker 7: Who knows?

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Speaker 6: Just what would I do?

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Speaker 3: Sweet enjoyed the subway? He shut the lover.

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Speaker 9: The human guinea pig stuff in Africa. It is so insane,

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the human guinea pig stuff in Africa, it's so insane,

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is so.

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Speaker 10: Inc so insane, it's so insane.

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Speaker 11: Funker Funcker boo fuco fucker bot.

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Speaker 4: I got a fund.

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Speaker 3: Come joint.

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Speaker 6: All right, welcome to another open debate today. Uh I

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decided to postpone my music industry stream. I know that

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everyone is concerned. We all hope the best for Diddy.

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Speaker 3: We're all.

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Speaker 6: We've all got our fingers crossed. We might have our

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hands a little bit like this when they're crossed. But listen,

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as a VG comby said, my favorite brother out there,

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we all know this is what all the elites do.

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The only reason that they're going after Diddy is because

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of his skin color. And look, I know everybody's interested.

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They want to know what is j Loo up to?

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Why if j Lo and Baffleck split, were they seen

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kissing again? Those are the issues that concern us, I know.

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But listen, I'm gonna have all the hot scoops, all

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the hot goss, the hottest gossip around available for you tomorrow.

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But because Francis seemingly doubled down, and we're gonna look

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at the responses and no, no, he's not doubling down.

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It's all misunderstandings. He's talking about diversity amongst Christians.

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Speaker 7: Is he.

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Speaker 6: There's stacks of books five feet five feet high. So Jamie,

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Jamie doesn't know where to set things because there's so

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many books everywhere. Okay, well that's gonna fall over if

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you put it up there. Thank you. She brought me

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a plate of treats. She brought me a plate of

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treats to calm my beat us rage in case I

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get mad. So she may be a homemade keto bite

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and a ginger chew for when the beat us attacks,

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when I get angry, beat us to the callers that

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call in. So I got the sugars.

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Speaker 12: I got a bad case of the sugars. This old

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Francis over here gets me a little angry. I get

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bad cases of the sugars. That starts shaking, and I

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get really angry and screaming and cussing up a.

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Speaker 13: Storm of people. Mama wouldn't be happy about that. So

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Mama told me to eat much sugars. Make sure I

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calm down and not get hungry. I'm drinking too many

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express Oh I gotta calm down. Oh man, So let's see.

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Speaker 6: Okay, I'm not gonna play the video because I think

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it's in a foreign language. My nose hair isn't making me.

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It's like crazy. Do you two snort cocaine? He snorts cocaine.

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You get him exposed, exposed? Clip it, clip it, clip it.

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Speaker 3: He's exposed.

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Speaker 6: Now the explanation once again, we have Francis here. Let's

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see to read the quote. Now this is the official

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Vatican uh whatever. This man is Vatican man here with

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the beard and whatnot. And doesn't he look like the

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ultimate trade cat with his tie and his little thin

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little beard. Man Michael Heenes, I mean, I don't even

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know how he talks.

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Speaker 14: But senior Vatican correspondent with Michael Heenes, now he's the

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one that's really been championing this latest information about Francis.

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Speaker 6: Unity is not uniformity. The diversity of our cultural religious

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identities is a gift from God. Unity and diversity. Now,

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the cope to today's apparent doubling down is, oh, this

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is just within the Christian sphere. Wait a minute, there's

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not religious diversity within the Christian sphere because that's the

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same religion. There might be cultural diversity within the Christian sphere.

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So this whole cope is preposterous. Every cope is preposterous.

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It's always the same word games to try to make

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it mean anything other than what he clearly says. And

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what's what's ironic is that what he clearly says is

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also clearly weaponized ambiguity. So there's a bit of a

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catch twenty two there. I admit it's a paradox. But

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how do I know what he quote clearly says. Well,

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I'm gonna show you how I know what he clearly says,

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because he's referencing back to and by the way, the

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fact that he says, well, he talks about Mary's, so

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he must only mean Catholics. This is what every Roman

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Catholic does when there's these problems in their documents. They say, well,

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here's this other quote over here that is not saying

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what the first quote says. Oh, well, that's a contradiction.

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That doesn't mean that the quotes harmonized. That just tells

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me that he's saying double speak. The Vatican has been

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masters at this bureaucratic double speak for probably many centuries.

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To be fair, to be fair, to be clear, here

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we are all pilgrims of hope walking in search of

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the truth. Now here's another problem in this quote, in

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this statement, which was in the other gaff heresy. Gaff

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the other day, I think he says in here we're

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all children of God or something like that. Let's see. Well, No,

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he says God loves every man and makes no difference

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among us. No, that's not true. Some of us are wicked,

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and some of us are sons of devils, sons of Satan, etcetera.

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Spiritually speaking, so no, it's not true that there's no

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differentiation amongst human beings. That's not true. And in the

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gaff the other day he said that we're all sons

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of God. No, that's not true. You're a son of

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God through baptism. You're not a son of God by

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merely being a son of Adam. In fact, those who

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are sons of Adam or under the spirit and influence

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of the wicked one. Now you're potentially a son of God,

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but you're not de facto a son of God by

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being a son of Adam. And so there's always this

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ambiguous language that goes on here. And he goes on

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to talk about it sounds like his typical worship illegal

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migrants type speech. But notice if it was merely a

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case of my nose, there's crazy. It's because the ragweed

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in this area is like at a level seven right now.

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He says, the richness of God wants us to be

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diverse through different traditions, different religious identities, is a gift

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of God. Again, if he's speaking to Christians, there's not

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differences of religions amongst Christians or amongst Catholics. Maybe in

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Francis's mind there actually is though, because you know, to

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be clear, you can be a Uniate and deny half

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of the papal dogmas and still be a quote good

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standing Catholic, or you can be a trad cat who

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thinks that all the things that the Uniates believe are

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heretical and damnable heresies, because it's the same position of

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the Orthodox in terms of Palmism. So maybe he does

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mean there's a lot of different religions within rogue Thalicism.

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So that's another option too. And of course, ever so,

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Michael often says the patriarchs have the humanism amongst them.

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Speaker 15: Yeah, I know that.

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Speaker 6: How many times have we addressed this argument? I've addressed

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it in every stream this week, every video. And why

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is that a two quoque way, Because if I'm doing

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an eternal critique of his system, it doesn't work to say,

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but you have accumunist bishops too. If the argument was

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the true Church is the one with no ecumunist bishops,

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then Michael Watton's reply would work. But nobody has made

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the argument that the true Church is proven by quote

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no ecumenist bishops or impeccable bishops, or bishops that have

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no errors or no sense. That's not the argument. I've

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figured out that these people are literally incapable of an

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internal critique. They don't understand that. After that, in almost

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twenty years of debating with Thomas off and on, and

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it being a Thomas, I don't care if Sam Schmun

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wants to come after me. We had a conversation, a

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friendly conversation about this, and he wants to do a

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roundtable where me and UBI and others come in debate.

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And I said, of course I'm down for that. But

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what I'm saying about internal critiques, I think that they

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just don't understand what that is. And they think that, oh, well,

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if you some problems in my system, you have problems

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in your system too. But not all problems are the same,

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Not all problems are created equal. Some problems are systemic

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or so fundamental that they demonstrate the incompatibility, the incoherency

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of the system as a whole. For example, if you

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remember when I debated tomorrow, I said, what would it

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take Eric, and he said, if you can produce a

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papal dogmatic contradiction, that would be enough. Yeah, exactly, it

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only takes one dogmatic contradiction to invalidate this system, because

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the system claims that for this entire system there are

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no papal dogmatic contradictions. So the burden of proof, by

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the way, is on those who have the extraordinary claims

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that the Church always taught the Vatican one views. That's

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what Vatican one says, that's what Leo the thirteenth stat

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is called mutum says. So actually the burden of proof

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with their outlandish claim is on them, I would say,

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and we've seen over and over that they're actually ever

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demonstrate that what they demonstrate is reading into various quotes.

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So how do I know what Francis meant? Well, Francis

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is repeating what he said in the Document on Human

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Fraternity from twenty nineteen which he signed with the Grand Imam.

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Do you see that? And it was a big scandal

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at the time because Francis said, God wills all of

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the religious diversity, all the pagan religions, God wants them

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to be there. And what did all the Roman Catholics

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say at the time, Oh, he doesn't mean in terms

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of his intentional will. He just means it in terms

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of lying providence. Interesting. So now when Francis says the

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exact same thing, and he clearly says that God wills

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religious diversity, now they're admitting that he is saying religious diversity,

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but it just means amongst Catholics. So well, wait a minute.

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When he said religious diversity back in back here in

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twenty nineteen, it didn't mean that. It only meant God's

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permission of many different systems, not of the wanted many

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false religions. So you see how they will the same phraseology,

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the same terminology is given a totally different sense by

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the Roman Catholics to fit the needs to make the

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system work. So their system is unfalsifiable. But the problem

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with unfalsifiable systems is that that's actually a demonstration of

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its tremendous weakness. Why would you have to be constantly

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propping up all of these blatant contradictions, all these blatant,

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compromised papal scandals that aren't just scandals of sin, they're

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scandals of doctrinal error, contradiction, and absurdity. Why would you

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have to keep doing this if this was such an

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obviously true, manifest, globally universal, unified system. It's like Luigi

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said the other day when he was debating with somebody,

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he said, you guys have dogmatized so many things that

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it's too difficult to keep up with and make the

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whole thing work. That's the problem. And just think of

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the Prima Fassia absurdity of a thousand years ago calling

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crusades against Muslims, and I'll grant that it was a

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defensive posture versus now signing joint declarations and documents that

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God wills Islam and Catholicism and the other religions and

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then building the Abu Dhabi Faith Center as a result

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of this document. Did you know that this document that

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he signed with the grant Imam was signed as the

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basis to build the multi faith center where there's a mosque.

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Speaker 7: And a.

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Speaker 6: Wait a minute, I've got it right here, synagogue, the

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cultural landmark of the UAE capital, which includes a synagogue,

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a church, and a MoMA is meant to be a

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beacon of understanding and peaceful co exists, bra coexists, brah

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bumpersticker theology inspired by what the document on human fraternity?

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What's the document on human fraternity? This thing right here

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where Francis says, God wills all the religions, he wants

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them to all be there. Now again, he just said

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two days ago or three days ago, that they're all

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paths to God. Like there's many different languages. Now, that's

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a false equivalence. The fact that there's many different languages

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and many different religions does not mean that they all

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get you to the end goal. There's only one way

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to have it, according to the New Testament, according to Christ,

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and according to even the Roman Catholic teaching all the

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way up until Vatican Two's no Strataute in Lemagentium sixteen,

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which again I argued, clearly implies that the plan of

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salvation includes Muslims. Okay, well, that's kind of ambiguous. Does

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that mean that Muslims can be saved?

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Speaker 15: Well?

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Speaker 6: First of all, who doubted that Muslims could convert and

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be saved? Nobody? Well, the interpretation that we're supposed to have. Well,

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that just means that they can be saved. The plan

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of salvation includes Muslims. Did anyone ever think Muslims couldn't

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convert to Christianity. That's a preposterous, absurd, you know, non

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necessary statement. In the first place. Amongst those who can

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be saved are those that acknowledge the Creator. So wait

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a minute, now, Jesus, isn't necessary Muslims profess to hold

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the faith of Abraham and along with us they adore

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the merciful One, merciful God. Now that says that they

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do adorn it, and every romancality will so. But it

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suys profess. That doesn't mean that they do. Oh but

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this isn't the only Vatican through document. There's also no

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stratate which qualifies this statement and goes even further to

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say that they do have the faith of Abraham. No

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sratat III. The Church esteems the Muslims. Imagine this language.

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Imagine telling Hillar Belook, the famous Roman Catholic writer and

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a Paulist from a century prior who wrote famous essays

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calling Islam antichrist. Think about the medieval popes who called

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it the wicked, demonic religion of Mohammed, the anti Christ

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religion of Mohammed. Now, according to the dogmatic teaching a

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Vatican through the Church esteems Muslims, oh, we esteem Antichrist.

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Now we used to go to war and call defensive

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crusades against the wicked Mohammedans. Now we esteem them.

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Speaker 15: Just that.

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Speaker 6: Right there is enough to tell you the spirit of

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Vatican two, it's not the Holy Spirit. Muslims adore the

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one God. Well, actually they don't, because every Muslim who

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knows the first thing about Islam will tell you Allah

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has no sons. So that right there totally destroys the

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lie that will.

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Speaker 16: As Trent Horn says Joseph, Christians worship the sabe Old

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test of but God because they believe it.

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Speaker 17: What God.

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Speaker 16: I'm tritt Hord. Look at my curly haired by triple chit.

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I'm trit Hord. I know a lot about theology. Look,

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I don't know what the word triad beads. I think

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it's a word that beats at Trinitarians will, even though

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it's the most Covid used day of bebokes.

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Speaker 6: Greek Catholics for the Trinity. But I don't know what

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that word beads, a tride horne, no trent horn. The

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fact that they believe in one God is not even

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the Old Testament God because Jews, maybe you could make

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this argument about Jews that they worship the same Old

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Testament God because they call him Father, He's the father

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of Israel. Jew Muslims explicitly say no, it is Allah

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has no sons.

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Speaker 4: Alaiah is no father.

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Speaker 6: It's Islam one oh one that Allah is not father.

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So this statement is false. They adore the one God

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that lives and subsists in himself. Okay, guess what are

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you familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity. The Doctor

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of the Trinity is not Unitarianism, that there's one divine

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person who lives and subsists in himself. Now, if you're

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a monarchical Trinitarian, you can say, well, that's true about

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the Father. But the Father did not live and subsist

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only in himself, as if he was there from the beginning.

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And then there's later on this second thing known as

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the Sun, and then there's this third thing spirit. No,

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there was always an eternal triad, eternally begotten. So you

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see how absurd from the outset this is as if

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there's a common religion between Muslims and Christians. Because here's

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the reasoning. Well, Muslims believe that there's some attributes that

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overlap with Christianity, So what a Satanist could believe there's

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some attributes that overlap, and so you can get well,

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but what about the sense and the reference they intend

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it to be. It doesn't matter what they intend, and

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it doesn't matter what the reference is ultimately, because every

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Catholic that I ask, I said, do you believe that

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a Mormon worships the same God as you? You understand

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they linguistically profess Father, Son, holy Spirit, and that Jesus

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is the Son of God in some sense. Does that

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mean because of the linguistic similarities, that we have the

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same God as the Mormons. Every Catholic tells me no

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when I ask him that, And then these goofballs turn

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around and tell me that Mormons don't have that Muslims

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have the same God. I mean, if anything, a Mormon

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might have a closer linguistic grammatical sense than than a Muslim.

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I mean, I think Mormonism is ridiculous, it's a stupid heresy,

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But I mean they at least say Jesus is divine.

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I mean, he's one of many gods. And they at

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least say God is the Father. I mean they think

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God has a body, and I mean it's all stupid, right,

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just nonsense. But like, on what basis is a Muslim

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closer to Catholicism than a Mormon. It doesn't make no sense. Oh,

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because of monotheism. It is Monotheism. What does that mean? Oh,

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it means, as Trent Horne argued, the Old Testament Unitarian God.

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There is no Old Testament Unitarian God. Why can anyone

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not fathom this? Do you know why they can't fathom it?

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I'm gonna shock you because in the mind of the

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Roman Catholic there's two conflicting positions. When I was dming

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with Tim Gordon the other day, we had a long

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back and forth basically the entire morning we were dming

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and voice messaging back and forth on Twitter. And I'm

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not knocking Tim. This is my analysis of that conversation.

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There is, on the one hand, the Tim Gordon, who

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wants to be in line with what obviously divine revelation

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says Moses and Abraham knew the Son of God directly

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through the Theophanes and thus had a worship of the Trinity.

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It doesn't matter that they knew the word trinity. If

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they knew God, the Father, his angel, a messenger who

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they ate with face to face, and that he had

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a spirit, which is all over the Old Testament, that's

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sufficient to know that that three person unity in the

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Old Testament is the Trinity, whether they knew the word

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trinity or not. And I can prove this again against

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the stupid Trent Horne thinks, how do.

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Speaker 16: They know the Trinity when the word trinity wasn't used yet,

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so therefore they didn't know the Trinity.

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Speaker 6: Do you understand how dumb that argument is. That means

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that the New Testament doesn't teach the Trinity because the

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word trinity wasn't used. That's so stupid. So Justin Martin

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wasn't arguing for the Trinity against Trifle the jew because

359
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he wasn't using the word trendititass Yet, this is so silly.

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This is the level of argumentation and debate that we

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have to use with these people that we're dealing with. Now,

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we're going to open this up to debate. It's not

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just about Catholicism today because obviously this topic relates to

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the Muslims. Well, again, let's go through the rest of

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the statement again, because this statement, which qualifies limagentium statement,

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makes it clear that Vatican too is saying, no, they

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do have the faith of Abraham. They adore the one

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God living in Saint himself, creator of having an earth,

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who has spoken to men. Now, if you listen to

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many of the streams of Sam chamun Uh, and if

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you listen to what Islam itself says about Allah, that

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he is the greatest of deceivers, and that he wills

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and creates evil, and that he duped his followers by

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tricking them about Jesus on the cross, on and on on.

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Does that sound like the one true God of the

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Old Testament or does that sound like another spirit that

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Jesus talks about. Jesus said that Satan was a liar

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from the beginning. If Islam says there, God is the

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greatest of deceivers.

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Speaker 3: Who does that sound?

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Speaker 6: Oh, that sounds more like Satan, doesn't it? According to

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the biblical perspective. Now, remember Mohammed had said Allah has

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no sons in a spiritual or in a literal sense.

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That means that the God of Jesus, whom Jesus calls

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Father a zillion times over in the Gospels, is not

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the God of Islam. That's an immediate disqualifier for them

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being the same reference or the same intended intentional context

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because of romancatholical Say, well, here we go. This is

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ed Faser's explanation. Muslims have the wrong idea, but they

390
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intended to reference the right thing. Okay, but you just

391
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if I asked you about Mormons, Mormons don't worship the

392
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same god. Oh well, you see, there's basic characteristics of

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what monotheism constitutes. How do we know what the basic obvious,

394
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self evident characteristics of monotheism are. Oh well, we don't.

395
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Now doctor Khalil, for example, and I said this to Tim.

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I said, Tim, watch this stream by doctor Khalil, because

397
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doctor Khalil says, if I begin with natural theology, which

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Muslims do, and then I reason to what the self

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evident principles of metaphysics show me about what divine simplicity is,

400
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I don't get a triad. I get an absolutely simple

401
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,079
Islamic deity of Shia Islam, which is neoplatonism. Now I

402
00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:28,640
don't believe that there are these self evident metaphysical principles

403
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,400
like that. But what I'm saying is that here you

404
00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:34,200
have doctor Khalil and Tim Gordon with the same presuppositions

405
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about what divine simplicity is when it is in terms

406
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of it self evidence and the type of absolutely simple

407
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God that it demonstrates without any reference to scripture or

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divine revelation. And doctor Khalil comes to the conclusion of

409
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Islamic Shia neoplatonism. But wait a minute, Tim Gordon comes

410
00:29:53,599 --> 00:30:00,960
to the conclusion of Aristotelian tomism. What I thought that

411
00:30:01,079 --> 00:30:06,720
there was a self evident, obvious Unitarian monotheism that we'd

412
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all agree on. Then we could later down the road

413
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downstream from that argue Trinity in the deed of Christ.

414
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The whole thing is false. That whole thing is wrong.

415
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There is no one Unitarian God that you reason about,

416
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and then Trinity down the road, there is only the Trinity.

417
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So the whole problem with all of this is the

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natural theology, the assumptions of Unitarianism, the belief that is

419
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patently false that Abraham worshiped a generic Unitarian God, which

420
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Trent Horne constantly repeats, which Jesus refutes when he argues

421
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with the Pharisees, you have neither seen him nor known him.

422
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I knew him. Abraham worshiped me. Moses wrote about me.

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If you follow Moses, you would believe in me because

424
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he was talking about me, because I ate with him

425
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face to face. Roman Catholics don't read the Old Testament.

426
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They are idiots about Biblical commentary. I'm not talking about

427
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their jesuit liberal hierocritical scholars who specialize in making the

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00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,039
Bible fak and gray. They're very good at that, because

429
00:31:07,039 --> 00:31:10,160
they're faking gray. I'm talking about the pawp apologist who

430
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:16,240
don't even know the Old Testament. And so when I

431
00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:20,680
asked him that Tim, there's the Tim Gordon that believes, Hey, wait,

432
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the Bible clearly is teaching the Theophanes and that Jesus

433
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is clearly saying that he's the one eating with Abraham,

434
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and he's the one on the mountain eating with Moses.

435
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Have Romcalich's read Exodus? Do they know what's in Exodus

436
00:31:35,559 --> 00:31:39,519
thirty three? I don't think they've even read it. Who

437
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is being who?

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Speaker 7: Oh?

439
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:44,319
Speaker 6: Is it's an angel? Does the angel? The angel does

440
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,519
eating Theophanes. The angels. Oh, okay, so now you believe

441
00:31:49,599 --> 00:31:52,920
in created angels that are called Yahweh, that are redeemers,

442
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that forgive sins, and that are worshiped, and that Jesus

443
00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:58,400
identifies himself as so are you an arian? Is Jesus

444
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a creature now? Because he's the one that was eating

445
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,279
with Abraham and Moses? Are you arians? I actually think

446
00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:11,920
they are becoming arians. They are becoming Muslims in their theology,

447
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because that's more consistent with their stupid natural theology presuppositions.

448
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,000
The Church regards with esteem the Muslims. Although in the

449
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Middle Ages we call them wicked Muhammedans, we call them demnable,

450
00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:36,200
heretics and anti christ, now we esteem them. How do

451
00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:40,599
you esteem Antichrist? I mean, I understand how because Francis

452
00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:43,279
is not at all they are Christian in any sense.

453
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He's a complete apostate herotic. But imagine the insanity of

454
00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:52,920
trying to smush all this together. Imagine Sam Chamount after

455
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,839
all the years of talking about how the Allah of

456
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,079
the Muslims is Satan, and now he wants to go

457
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in the direction of this. He's gonna have to throw

458
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,079
out all these apologetics that he's been doing for so long,

459
00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:15,319
which are so effectual. I'm not saying he's a heretic.

460
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I'm saying if he goes in this direction and he

461
00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:23,359
adopts these positions, that's where he will end up. So

462
00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:26,039
do you want to give up all that previous apologetics?

463
00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:32,519
And remember every Roman Catholic God I've asked, I've asked.

464
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,440
So wait a minute. Is a Mormon worshiping the same

465
00:33:36,519 --> 00:33:40,640
God as you? When it's the same terms and same words?

466
00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:42,839
Oh no, Well, what does it count? Because you see

467
00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:45,160
they're not really mono theos and blah blah blah blah blah. Okay,

468
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,319
but what why does that not apply it with a Muslim? Well,

469
00:33:48,359 --> 00:33:50,480
because they do acknowledge one God. Oh but when I'm

470
00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:52,960
a Satanist, a theistic Satanist, and I say there's one God,

471
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,279
does that count? No, that doesn't call because I'm still

472
00:33:55,319 --> 00:33:57,599
talking about the wrong glow of God. Yeah, that's the

473
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,119
thing in question. I mean, it's arbitrary, is the point.

474
00:34:02,599 --> 00:34:06,400
There's no self evident idea about what the monotheism God is.

475
00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:09,400
If you read the Garybee paper, the first five pages

476
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,320
point this out. He destroys Swinburne for making this stupid

477
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,199
argument that there's self evident principles as to what tell

478
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,320
us what lowest common denominator monotheism is. There is no

479
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:25,119
lois common nominator Unitarian monotheism. It just doesn't exist. And

480
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:26,920
by the way, when you realize that, guess what that

481
00:34:27,039 --> 00:34:31,239
cuts off? Judaism, Islam and all this nonsense. All of

482
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,159
this goes out the window. There is only the eternal Triad.

483
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,800
There is only the monarchical Trinity. That's it from the

484
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,559
very beginning. Do you see now why it's so crucial

485
00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:48,639
for them to deny Theophanes? And again, some Roman Catholics

486
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,519
are better than the theology. They realize that this is

487
00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:55,320
a powerful apologetic, clearly as Church fathers argued against the

488
00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:59,920
Eunomians and the Jews and the Unitarian heretics by using

489
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:03,000
Old Testament Theophanies. So maybe I try, I kind of

490
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,320
want to use that apologetic, but my dumb idiot Vatican

491
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,800
has told me no, they actually all worship the same God.

492
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,960
It's not that difficult. This is just the same arguments

493
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,079
I made against Trent Horn in our debate. So do

494
00:35:18,159 --> 00:35:20,480
you do you see that all the stuff I argue

495
00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:25,599
to Trent Horn is manifesting through Francis himself and what

496
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:33,519
he says, and these idiots double down, triple down. I

497
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:35,960
don't know why. I don't know what is it about

498
00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:39,960
this ridiculous system that anybody even wants I mean, unless

499
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,000
your skittles, I don't know why you would even want

500
00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:43,679
to be in this system. What are you getting out

501
00:35:43,679 --> 00:35:47,719
of this? I mean, do you enjoy going to have

502
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,760
some big, fat sixty year old woman on a liturgical

503
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,239
council telling you what to do in a church? Do

504
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:56,239
you enjoy altar?

505
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:56,639
Speaker 7: Girls?

506
00:35:56,679 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 6: I don't know what are you? Do you enjoy the

507
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:09,599
skittles pre trying to give you spiritual advice? What is

508
00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:14,159
in the system that you find so wonderful, beautiful, convincing.

509
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:24,960
I don't get it. I don't get it. I mean,

510
00:36:25,039 --> 00:36:27,519
do you guys not understand how weak this is on

511
00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:32,320
the part of Lofton. This has been Lofton's response for

512
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,280
the last seven years on this topic. All he's ever

513
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,360
said is they got a bunch of acumenists too. Dog.

514
00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:44,880
If I look at the patriarchal whatever, he's the ecumenists too. Look,

515
00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:49,519
you got the same problems, dog. But the argument was

516
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:53,360
never Which system has no problems, which system has no ecumenism?

517
00:36:53,559 --> 00:37:00,239
The question is which dogmatic decrees and teachings contradicts such

518
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:07,039
that the system is not true. Now again, Islam takes

519
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:14,239
pains to submit to God's inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham,

520
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,400
who with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure to

521
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,960
link itself submitted to God. So notice here they do

522
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:27,400
submit to God, and it is the faith of Abraham,

523
00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:33,559
just like Abraham. Now everybody who's a Christian knows that

524
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,880
the first thing you would do in a debate or

525
00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:38,119
in talking to a Muslim if you loved a Muslim,

526
00:37:38,159 --> 00:37:41,639
would say, listen, I understand you think you have the Abraham,

527
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,119
the faith of Abraham, but you are deluded. You do

528
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,519
not have the faith of Abraham because you have a

529
00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:52,519
generic anti Trinitarian unitarianism. Do you see? This all comes

530
00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:56,119
down to whether Abraham believed in Jesus and worship the

531
00:37:56,159 --> 00:37:58,760
Trinity or not. All of this hinges on that point.

532
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,599
And if you go in the direction of Vatican two

533
00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:06,280
and it's a humanism, you must surrender that, you must

534
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,800
give up the Theophanes. That's why the Roman Calloty Church

535
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,719
stop teaching Theophanes in the Middle Ages, in the confrontation

536
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:18,920
with Palamas, Barleam and Acandinos explicitly reject these positions. They say,

537
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,960
it is not the uncreated light at Mount Tabor in

538
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,639
Matthew seventeen, it is a created light, and by extension

539
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,599
that Theophanes have to be created angelic beings and not

540
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:34,800
the son of God himself. Thus, the Old Testament religion

541
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,159
is a unitarian religion. That's the logic of Attican two.

542
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,599
That's the logic of Roman Catholicism's natural theology. That's the

543
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,960
logic of Islam. The same argumentation, the same presuppositions the

544
00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:52,280
doctor Khalil has in his lectures on Islamic natural theology

545
00:38:53,760 --> 00:39:00,679
lead to the conclusion of Islamic unitarianism and Neoplatonism. So, Tim,

546
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,119
all you other Roman Catholics, when are you going to

547
00:39:04,159 --> 00:39:09,920
become a Muslim? Because they're natural theology presuppositions. Clearly, it's

548
00:39:10,039 --> 00:39:14,039
self evident, isn't it. Why wouldn't you conclude with Shia

549
00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:27,519
Islam on the basis of natural theology, they find moral

550
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:31,239
life and worship God. Especially, they value the moral life

551
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,000
and worship God through prayer, alms, giving, and fascinating. This

552
00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:37,679
clearly says again proving my point that when voti continue

553
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,920
uses the word adoration, the Muslims adore the One True God,

554
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,800
they mean worship because it's restated. The Muslims worship that is, God,

555
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,239
accepts the Islamic prayers and the Islamic attributions of who

556
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,800
God is, even though again they don't believe he's a father.

557
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,440
Allah is not a father. How in the world are

558
00:39:57,519 --> 00:39:59,519
we going to link this to the supposed God of

559
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:02,400
the Old test when one of the most obvious facts

560
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,360
about the Old Testament is that the God of the

561
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,599
Old Testament is God the Father. Even if you're a Unitarian,

562
00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:11,159
even if you're an anti Trinitarian, even Unitarians and Jews

563
00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:13,119
can recognize that the God of the Old Testament is

564
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,280
God the Father. So this is how stupid Islam is.

565
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,880
They think they have a commonality with the Old Testament

566
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,239
while being so foolish as to reject the idea that

567
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:30,880
God is the Father. That immediately cuts you off from

568
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,000
the most obvious name of the God of the Old Testament,

569
00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:40,239
the Father. This is so preposterous to me, And yet

570
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:46,480
Vatican two says Muslims worship God through their prayers and

571
00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:50,079
their alm giving, and they're fasting. But that is not

572
00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:54,000
the God of the Old Testament. I mean, imagine me

573
00:40:54,119 --> 00:41:02,239
saying I explicitly reject God, God the Father, and a

574
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,920
Catholic says, brother, don't worry about it. We all worship

575
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,719
the same God. Again, the point has proven with Mormons.

576
00:41:11,519 --> 00:41:14,000
Every Catholic I've asked says, no, I don't worship the

577
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:16,880
same God as a Mormon. And yet they turn around

578
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,559
and say, but it is the same God of Islam. Again,

579
00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:24,719
why is a Mormon actually not closer than a Muslim

580
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,320
if it's based on the terms that are used. A

581
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,519
Mormon says the terms father, son, spirit, and Jesus is

582
00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:34,360
divine and is the son of God. Those are terms

583
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,719
that's grammar closer to you. Oh, it's not about the

584
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,840
words and the terms of what they mean. Oh, it's

585
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,679
about what they mean. Oh exactly. So then Muslims don't

586
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,840
have the same God because they don't mean a God

587
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,599
who is trinitarian. You see how either way they go

588
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,960
in this argument, they collapse, They destroy their own position.

589
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,960
And again, why isn't Vatican too simply saying what the

590
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,119
traditional trade cat teaching always said that Islam is Antichrist.

591
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,639
Why wouldn't it just say what supposedly had always said?

592
00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:18,599
Why are we having all of this weaponized ambiguity, which

593
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,920
here at least is not very ambiguous. So when I

594
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,039
read these statements and then I go over here and

595
00:42:25,079 --> 00:42:28,320
I see Francis saying the Document of Human Fraternity that

596
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:42,639
God wills all the religions, why wouldn't we think that

597
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:52,880
it's the same meaning as what's in Vatican two. I'm

598
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,480
trying to find this specific statement in this document because

599
00:42:57,519 --> 00:43:05,000
it was it was a famous fussed about thing in

600
00:43:05,039 --> 00:43:19,800
twenty nineteen. So remember this is the joint declaration with

601
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,880
the Imam. We who believe in God, Well, we don't

602
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,280
believe in the same God as I mom, though, So

603
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:27,960
how is it? How is the document starts out with

604
00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:35,079
a ridiculous position. The first and most important aim of

605
00:43:35,159 --> 00:43:41,039
religions is to believe in God. So what I'm trying

606
00:43:41,079 --> 00:43:43,440
to get across to you, I think, which is the

607
00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:52,360
key point here, is that if you don't understand that

608
00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:56,039
the Old Testament teaches the Trinity, and if you don't

609
00:43:56,119 --> 00:43:59,880
understand that Jesus is saying that in John five, no,

610
00:44:01,119 --> 00:44:03,639
I can't understand or fathom how you could call yourself

611
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,559
or be a Christian. It doesn't make sense to me

612
00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:09,159
because these are mutually exclusive positions. It cannot be the

613
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,400
case that the Old Testament teaches the Trinity and that

614
00:44:12,559 --> 00:44:16,360
Jesus says that, and that the Old Testament's unitarian. But

615
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:29,199
those are mutually exclusive. But it can't be both. I'm

616
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,280
trying to find this statement in this document where it

617
00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:46,079
says that God wills all the religions. Maybe it's religions.

618
00:44:46,840 --> 00:45:10,159
Let's try that, Okay, Let's see. Freedom is a right

619
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,039
of every person. Each individual enjoys the freedom of belief, thought, expression,

620
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:16,960
and action. By the way, that was actually condemned proposition.

621
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,760
Formerly the Ron Macalliy Church used to condemn the Protestant

622
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,440
doctrine of the freedom of conscience and freedom of worship.

623
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,599
That's something that Vatican two contradicted on. And yes, I

624
00:45:28,679 --> 00:45:31,000
know they have a million copes to explain how that's

625
00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:34,000
not a contradiction, but I mean, flat out, I mean

626
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:36,280
Martin Luther's positions on these were condemned a the time

627
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:42,360
of the Reformation. There are statements in the Syllabus of

628
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,199
Errors that condemned the idea of the freedom of conscience,

629
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,920
freedom of religion. And now this is a vaticant too teaching,

630
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,760
and it's restated here. So that's one dogmatic contradiction right there.

631
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,920
The pluralism and the diversity of the religions, the color,

632
00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:01,079
the sex, the relay, race, and language are willed by

633
00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:04,239
God in his wisdom through which he created human beings.

634
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:09,079
There it is so, God, through creation willed there to

635
00:46:09,199 --> 00:46:13,480
be various religions. So notice the cope that they used

636
00:46:13,519 --> 00:46:19,079
on today's statement that when Francis says, where was it?

637
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 7: Oh?

638
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 6: Oh, when Francis says this, you see, this just means

639
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,719
the diversity of the Catholic traditions. That was one of

640
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:36,559
the Catholic apologists copes today. I saw, Oh, really, why

641
00:46:36,599 --> 00:46:39,360
if he's speaking the Catholics, does he call it multiple religions?

642
00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:43,880
Are there multiple religions amongst Catholicism? I mean, actually there are,

643
00:46:44,079 --> 00:46:48,599
which is funny. Unity is not uniformity, and the diversity

644
00:46:48,639 --> 00:46:50,880
of our culture, religions and identities is a gift from God.

645
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:56,480
It's unity and diversity, religions plural Well guess what, that's

646
00:46:56,519 --> 00:47:00,280
exactly what his twenty nineteen document with the Grandy Moms said,

647
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:09,360
God wills all of these different religions. So again to

648
00:47:09,519 --> 00:47:11,800
highlight be I want you to be clear and understand

649
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,519
the argument I make it because a lot of you

650
00:47:13,599 --> 00:47:16,960
are not going to understand the argument. When this document

651
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,519
came out in twenty nineteen, their explanation was no, no,

652
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,960
this just means God wills it in a general providential

653
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:27,719
sense and that he passively accepts. It's not that he

654
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,880
wants it. So the language here is interpreter to mean

655
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:39,000
not diversity, not a real diversity that he wants. The

656
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:44,119
same language over here, Oh, it's a diversity that he wants,

657
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,480
you see, but only amongst Catholics, even though it says

658
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:54,400
various religions plural. So they've contradicted themselves in interpreting the

659
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,119
same language to fit to make it work. Do you

660
00:47:59,159 --> 00:47:59,800
see what I'm saying?

661
00:47:59,840 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 7: Do you?

662
00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:08,159
Speaker 6: That's a very specific, precise argument. Here, various religions does

663
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:13,280
not mean actual religions. It just means God permits it. Oh,

664
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,360
but over here it does mean God wills different religions,

665
00:48:18,199 --> 00:48:23,639
meaning different Catholic traditions. That's their code. So the same

666
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,039
phraseology is given totally different meanings to make this dumb

667
00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:31,880
system work, which means it's an unfalsifiable system, which means

668
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,880
it's a weak system, because any system that is constantly

669
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:41,480
propped up with unfalsifiability with Kazustri is a totally weak system.

670
00:48:41,559 --> 00:48:44,519
But remember, this was supposed to be the rock of Peter,

671
00:48:44,679 --> 00:48:47,159
the rock of the papacy that would stand firm until

672
00:48:47,159 --> 00:48:51,119
the end of time, as the visible testament to the

673
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:56,519
unity of the true Roman papal faith. And that's why

674
00:48:56,679 --> 00:48:58,800
I wrote my essay and I made it public. You

675
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,159
can go read all the actual quotes that also deal

676
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:04,079
with the copes from a couple of days ago. I'm

677
00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:05,719
not going to repeat this. We already covered this in

678
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,960
two live streams on a video. I'm not gonna again.

679
00:49:10,079 --> 00:49:12,119
They don't read Vatican One. They don't know what Vatican

680
00:49:12,159 --> 00:49:18,360
one says. Because Vatican one says there will be popes

681
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,360
as the attesters too and the protectors of this visible

682
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,960
global unity until the end of time. So no great

683
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,280
apostasy where there's no pope for fifty years or a

684
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,039
hundred years. That's not there because it's until the end

685
00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:35,400
of time. There will be shepherds until the end of time.

686
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,039
This is talking about the Petrine Office. This is Vatican

687
00:49:39,079 --> 00:49:45,599
one that institution will be permanent and will retain its

688
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,239
nature that it has until the end of time, not

689
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,880
until the end times, giving this out for them to

690
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:57,679
have a vast apostasy. Even if there's an apostasy in

691
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,159
the Roman Catholic system, it has to still be the

692
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,960
case that the Roman Sea maintains the faith until the

693
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,760
return of Christ. So let's say, if we wanted to

694
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,360
have an apostasy that fits with the Vatican one view.

695
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,000
It means that all the let's say, all the bishops fail,

696
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,800
but the Sea of Peter cannot fail. That's the Vatican

697
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,760
one position. You can't go with apparitions to Trump. Vatican one,

698
00:50:23,199 --> 00:50:27,159
Vatican one, Trump's apparitions. In the Roman Catholic system, you

699
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:31,480
follow the dogmas, you follow the teaching of the Roman

700
00:50:31,559 --> 00:50:36,280
Sea in Catholicism. You don't get to take an apparition

701
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,400
and say, oh, well, Lasilette says that there's going to

702
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,079
be an apostasy in Rome. Yeah, but Losilette was prior

703
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:46,880
to Vatican one and Vatican one. Trump's las Lette. I

704
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,360
kid you not. When I was scrolling through Roman Catholic

705
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,840
comments the past couple of days, what are they all

706
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,920
turning to a vast clump of them are turning to

707
00:50:55,000 --> 00:51:00,320
Marian apparitions. This is the foolishness of this religion to

708
00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:05,719
turn to goofy contradictory Maryan apparitions and not even go

709
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:11,639
with their own freaking Vatican one dogmas, no wonder their

710
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:16,199
skittles in effeminate. They follow a woman's apparitions that they

711
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,119
think are merry, which they can never proves Mary, by

712
00:51:18,159 --> 00:51:22,119
the way, because every time they try to argue that

713
00:51:22,199 --> 00:51:26,000
it's really Mary, and I bring up Mary appearing to

714
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:30,400
the Coptics, Well that one doesn't count. That one doesn't count.

715
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,760
What about Mary appearing to Orthodox churches, Well that one

716
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:34,320
doesn't count.

717
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:35,039
Speaker 1: That's not Mary.

718
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,559
Speaker 6: Get out of here. We're not gonna have stupid Christian

719
00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:47,119
identity heretics in here. Get out of here. Remember that

720
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,320
rom Akelloching a month ago, he literally sat here for

721
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,639
two hours trying to figure out how to make the

722
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:58,960
Maryan apparitions work as proofs when he wouldn't accept the

723
00:51:59,039 --> 00:52:04,920
married apparitions of the Coptics. And then eventually he was like, Okay,

724
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,719
well maybe the Coptic a versions are true, and Mary

725
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,360
is saying that Coptics are also Roman Catholics. Okay, well,

726
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,639
thank you for admitting that Mary is telling us now

727
00:52:12,679 --> 00:52:15,079
that we don't need the papacy because the Coptics haven't

728
00:52:15,119 --> 00:52:20,320
accepted the papacy for centuries. So it's like everywhere they turn,

729
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,119
the whole position, the whole system is canceled out and

730
00:52:24,199 --> 00:52:26,920
they can't get it wide because they won't think about,

731
00:52:27,039 --> 00:52:31,400
or listen or understand critiques at a system level. They

732
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,519
cannot grasp this is what I figured out today. They

733
00:52:33,599 --> 00:52:37,880
can't grasp an internal critique. Lofton cannot grasp this, Ibarro

734
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,880
cannot grasp this. That's why I Loten thinks that it's

735
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:47,480
a sufficient reply to say you go to a Cumanists too. Yeah,

736
00:52:47,519 --> 00:52:50,519
but if I thought that the patriarch of Alexandria was

737
00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:53,440
what Vatican One claims, that might be a good argument.

738
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,760
Like Snack always says, well, there goes my faith in

739
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:03,559
the infallible, indefectible see of alexand Andrea. It's like, why

740
00:53:03,679 --> 00:53:08,760
can they not understand an internal critique. It's baffling. Remember

741
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:10,559
when I was debating a barrow, it's the same situation.

742
00:53:11,559 --> 00:53:15,039
If you could show a contradiction between paopal dogmas, that

743
00:53:15,119 --> 00:53:22,320
would be enough. Okay, all it takes is one contradiction, right, supposedly,

744
00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:25,760
isn't that enough to I mean, the nature of I'm

745
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:27,480
beginning to think they don't understand the nature of the

746
00:53:27,559 --> 00:53:30,480
Roman Catholic system is such that if there's a dogmatic contradiction,

747
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:36,559
the system doesn't work. It falls apart. That's all that's

748
00:53:36,639 --> 00:53:43,679
necessary for an internal critique to disprove the system at

749
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:48,519
a systemic level, and for Michael often to say, but

750
00:53:48,599 --> 00:53:51,320
you have the same problem with a Cumuinus bishops dog

751
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,440
it doesn't work because he's importing his system on the mind.

752
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,440
I mean, this is such a low level response. It's

753
00:54:02,599 --> 00:54:05,840
baffling to me that, And I think really Lofton has

754
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,920
kind of retired into just going for the lowest common

755
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,159
that like the lowest tier of converting people. He's just

756
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,679
going for like super low tier numbers because there's no

757
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,119
way he's ever going to debate anybody of anything. He's

758
00:54:18,159 --> 00:54:19,079
never debated anybody.

759
00:54:20,119 --> 00:54:20,159
Speaker 7: No.

760
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 6: Uh, he challenged you to a debate, you wouldn't do it.

761
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,400
He challenged me to a written debate, a written debate

762
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,960
in twenty twenty four. Don't nobody do written debates? Dude?

763
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,199
Get out of here with that boomer crap. That's the

764
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,400
same thing that Lecoutis did. I can't debate you. I

765
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,440
have hiccups. That was his excuse. I'm not joking by

766
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,880
the way. He then went and debated. Didn't he debate UBI?

767
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,360
So he can debate UBI? But he wouldn't debate me

768
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,639
because he has hiccup disorder? What hiccup disorder? And then

769
00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:56,320
he said, I'll debate you written for him written. I'm

770
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:00,760
not writing a book against romeccality's. I can just refute

771
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,719
this in a live stream. Nobody does book written debates. Dude.

772
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,280
This is not two thousand and seven blog warfare. Oh bro,

773
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,440
I'm gonna get on my zanga and I will destroy

774
00:55:11,519 --> 00:55:14,960
you on my zanga tonight. Do people they don't even

775
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:20,239
know what zanga is. In two thousand and six, dude,

776
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,280
all of the warfare was zanga. You gotta go where

777
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,559
the battle is. This is a two thousand and six man.

778
00:55:26,639 --> 00:55:30,480
Nobody's on zanga. Nobody's writing twenty page blog responses anymore.

779
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:40,599
This twenty twenty four. Bro, all right, I've been yapping

780
00:55:40,679 --> 00:55:45,440
long enough. It's open topics, man, and I want if

781
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,760
you disagree, you want to come debate. You come, you'll

782
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,239
go to the head of the line. Please don't ask

783
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,960
me orthodox FQ questions. Please don't. I'm asking, I'm humbly

784
00:55:54,039 --> 00:55:57,159
requesting you to not do that tonight. If you want

785
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,000
to answer your Orthodox FAQ questions, guess what you should do.

786
00:56:01,119 --> 00:56:03,360
You should go to your Orthodox church and learn it.

787
00:56:05,639 --> 00:56:09,480
Enough of this internet stuff, too much time online. Go

788
00:56:09,639 --> 00:56:12,679
to the real church, the actual, living, embodied church, not

789
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,239
the abstract one in the internet sphere, because that's the

790
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:21,920
only one. If you want the basics everybody needs to

791
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,880
get Orthodox dogmatic theology by Palmazansky. You can go watch

792
00:56:26,159 --> 00:56:29,360
FDA's lectures. He's been working through this book for months.

793
00:56:30,199 --> 00:56:32,639
Go to his channel Patristic Faith. You can go through

794
00:56:33,199 --> 00:56:35,199
his lectures. If you don't have a priest or anybody, right,

795
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,639
that's where you get your catechisis. Don't get your catechisas

796
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:42,199
from debate streams. If they help you out, that's good.

797
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,079
But the more that I've read this book over time,

798
00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:54,320
I think it is a really good catechism. And most

799
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,760
of the controversial topics within Orthodoxy that come up, he's

800
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,880
got pretty good accounts of how to deal with those,

801
00:57:01,679 --> 00:57:08,360
whether it's Augustinianism or you know, Philly ok Way or whatever.

802
00:57:10,159 --> 00:57:13,920
It's treated very well overall in this book. So remember

803
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:15,840
you need to get the basics before you try to

804
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,719
get into the nitty gritty of Oh, I'm gonna jump

805
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,320
right into the eternal manifestation of the movement of the Energies.

806
00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:25,480
Get the basics down first, Okay, before you try to

807
00:57:25,519 --> 00:57:28,440
get into that stuff. Too many people, twenty year old

808
00:57:28,519 --> 00:57:32,719
people try to immediately go into the most difficult Orthodox

809
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:37,239
doctrines and that's usually ends up in disaster and then

810
00:57:37,239 --> 00:57:39,199
they'll mess up and they miss some basic thing that

811
00:57:39,239 --> 00:57:41,760
they should have laid the groundwork first. So remember what

812
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,440
Paul says, lay a strong foundation. You gotta lay the

813
00:57:46,519 --> 00:57:50,079
foundation before you try to jump to the THHD doctor

814
00:57:50,079 --> 00:57:56,920
Bradshaw level stuff. So if you need Kateakisis, read the

815
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:02,679
Pomazansky book. Don't ask me about your marriage problems, don't

816
00:58:02,719 --> 00:58:05,480
ask me about your fasting questions, don't ask me about

817
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,079
your canon law questions. None of that is me. I

818
00:58:08,159 --> 00:58:11,880
don't do that, and it's not appropriate for Internet nerds

819
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,920
to be doing that. Anyway. We got a couple of supertests,

820
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,039
then we're going to open it up for debate. I'm

821
00:58:19,079 --> 00:58:20,840
a list of topics for you. If you don't listen,

822
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,159
if you don't come with the topics, it's immediate boot.

823
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,320
We're not going to listen to your poetry. I don't

824
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,119
care about your slam poetry. I don't care how good

825
00:58:28,159 --> 00:58:30,599
you think your bars are. I bet I spit better bars.

826
00:58:30,599 --> 00:58:32,559
I guarantee you that I don't care how good you

827
00:58:32,639 --> 00:58:36,039
think you're sing. I don't care about your What else

828
00:58:36,199 --> 00:58:41,800
is there storytelling? Your gnostic ancient alien storytelling? Actually that's

829
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,880
pretty entertaining. So if you're a Gnostic and you want

830
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:45,679
to come tell me about ancient aliens and all that stuff,

831
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:47,559
you go to the head of the line. Chris JD.

832
00:58:47,719 --> 00:58:51,960
Three dollars. Is it not exhausting if you're a papist

833
00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:54,519
or a papal lawyer to continue covering for this system.

834
00:58:54,559 --> 00:58:57,639
It's crazy. It is exhausting. And I did it. So

835
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:00,719
to again stress this point, all the stuff that you're

836
00:59:00,719 --> 00:59:03,079
seeing everybody go through right now, I did all this.

837
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:04,920
I went through all this in the year of two

838
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,480
thousand and four or five, six, seven, eight nine. I

839
00:59:07,639 --> 00:59:11,920
was doing all I struggle with all this, and that's

840
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:17,039
why I know the Roman Catholic doctrines and documents like

841
00:59:17,199 --> 00:59:22,440
Sam Schmoun knows the Hot Deaths and the Qur'an. I

842
00:59:22,599 --> 00:59:26,400
know Denzinger. Let's go to Denzinger. You guys have seen

843
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:32,559
my Denzinger. It's all sticky notes. I live this, I

844
00:59:32,679 --> 00:59:39,639
breathe this, the Roman system, and that's why for years

845
00:59:39,719 --> 00:59:45,360
their excuse, well, he's you mean bumblebee three dollars. Do

846
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,000
you think this is shaping up to be a religion

847
00:59:47,039 --> 00:59:51,000
of Antichrist? It certainly could be. We don't know if

848
00:59:51,039 --> 00:59:53,719
it's the end of the world. It could be. I

849
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,119
do think there are certain prophecies and the Orthodox tradition

850
00:59:56,199 --> 00:59:58,519
that we clearly think have to be fulfilled to have

851
00:59:58,679 --> 01:00:02,159
me fulfilled. So I wouldn't rush to say, oh, this

852
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,199
is the end of the world. But you know, it's

853
01:00:05,239 --> 01:00:08,880
also possible that those prophecies could happen quick For example,

854
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,159
the conversion of the Jews, the conversion of the world

855
01:00:11,199 --> 01:00:14,639
in mass those could happen within a small frame of time.

856
01:00:15,239 --> 01:00:19,280
So perhaps, but then again, we may have another thousand years.

857
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:24,159
We don't know, but it does look like given the

858
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,679
topic that we look at quite often over here on

859
01:00:26,719 --> 01:00:29,599
this channel, which is the geopolitics of the papacy and

860
01:00:29,639 --> 01:00:33,519
the geopolitics of religion in general, including within the Orthodox Church.

861
01:00:33,599 --> 01:00:36,480
So this is another falsehood, the Rome mecaloicy. So you

862
01:00:36,519 --> 01:00:39,400
won't talk about ecumenist bishops and the Orthodox Church. Yes

863
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:44,000
I have for years. Not true, but if you don't

864
01:00:44,039 --> 01:00:45,800
listen to my streams, you wouldn't.

865
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:45,679
Speaker 7: Know that.

866
01:00:54,800 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 6: Where was the loss of the super chat But that,

867
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:03,920
by the way, is why we have for many years

868
01:01:04,039 --> 01:01:08,480
covered the close connection between the Vatican and the world

869
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:12,199
power of the geopolitical power leader the West, the Atlantis

870
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:17,440
power block, et cetera. And remember when we started, you know,

871
01:01:17,599 --> 01:01:21,440
really hammering that home, especially during the Kouf. Remember that

872
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:26,760
Lofton and Trent and probably still have this. They act

873
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:31,039
like this doesn't exist. Trent and Lofton have consistently says

874
01:01:31,079 --> 01:01:33,880
this about twenty twenty, maybe twenty nineteen. There's no such

875
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,000
thing as a push for world government. That's all crazy conspiracy.

876
01:01:37,199 --> 01:01:40,159
Imagine thinking that these people who have absolutely no discernment

877
01:01:40,239 --> 01:01:44,159
about the times and where we are, no knowledge whatsoever

878
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,280
of a real push for a global governance world in

879
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,880
comy form, Davos, all this stuff. They have no knowledge

880
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,480
of this. They still deny it, but they're going to

881
01:01:53,519 --> 01:01:58,719
tell you about through their discernment the papacy, Francis and

882
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:00,679
all this nonsense. How are they going to do that?

883
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:03,280
They can't even what does Jesus say to the Pharisees?

884
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:05,639
Do you not know the times? Are you so ignorant?

885
01:02:05,639 --> 01:02:08,360
You can't understand the time? Meaning that they didn't understand

886
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,719
that it was the time of his coming, So they

887
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,599
had no discernment the Pharisees and the Jews of his day,

888
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:19,000
according to this critique, and I'm saying this same principle

889
01:02:19,039 --> 01:02:23,000
applies to Lofton and Trent Horne. They have absolutely no

890
01:02:23,079 --> 01:02:26,320
discernment or knowledge of global governance or the push for

891
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,239
any of this. They're still acting like this doesn't exist.

892
01:02:29,679 --> 01:02:32,880
These people are completely clueless. And that's why, by the way,

893
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,360
I also challenged all the Roman calics. I went out

894
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,719
looking for academic Roman Catholics historians to debate me on

895
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,159
the geopolitics of the papacy. None of them will do it.

896
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,280
I've asked probably a dozen of them. None of them

897
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:49,400
will do it. I put out multiple public requests with

898
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:53,719
hundreds of likes, hundreds of shares. None of them will

899
01:02:53,719 --> 01:02:56,760
do it. They don't want to talk about the wim

900
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:58,679
Hoff book. They don't want to talk about Gladio, they

901
01:02:58,679 --> 01:03:00,719
don't want to talk about any of this stuff which

902
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:05,039
I've read countless books on, and maybe they know that

903
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,360
they would rather retreat into.

904
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,639
Speaker 16: Oh, that's a bunch of Jack chick track stuff.

905
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 6: That's crazy conspiracy stuff.

906
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:13,719
Speaker 18: Ha haa.

907
01:03:14,039 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 16: I'm so smug and so I'm so pious and knowledgeable,

908
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,079
and I just still act like it doesn't exist. And

909
01:03:20,159 --> 01:03:22,639
my audience is so stupid they follow me thinking that

910
01:03:22,719 --> 01:03:23,320
it doesn't exist.

911
01:03:25,599 --> 01:03:33,159
Speaker 6: That gets a hand fart, that's what that gets, Dree

912
01:03:33,719 --> 01:03:36,159
one dollar. Sam Shimun did a series in the Turn

913
01:03:36,199 --> 01:03:38,599
of the Old Testament. I know I saw one of

914
01:03:38,639 --> 01:03:41,599
the videos. I didn't see the whole series, and I

915
01:03:41,679 --> 01:03:43,400
did a series as well. I did one video on it.

916
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,039
We did a three hour a total of almost three

917
01:03:46,159 --> 01:03:51,199
over three hours of just Torah Torah Trinity. Sam said

918
01:03:51,239 --> 01:03:53,119
that the Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus. He

919
01:03:53,159 --> 01:03:55,199
covered all the theophanies. Of course, He's used that argument

920
01:03:55,239 --> 01:03:58,920
a million times for a long time. Has he given

921
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,199
any thought to the Essen Centner distinction? How Roman Catholic

922
01:04:01,239 --> 01:04:05,039
doesn't Romantholicism doesn't affirm this. I don't know. That's a

923
01:04:05,079 --> 01:04:08,119
good question. I don't know that he has dealt with that,

924
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,760
Daniel ten dollars. Mormons do all the same stuff. Once

925
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:14,639
they see that their prophets contradict their teachings and their

926
01:04:14,679 --> 01:04:18,119
theology and that they're weird epistemologies all over the place,

927
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:20,840
they then turn to the testimony of Joseph Smith that

928
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,639
he quotes saw God the Father. They are cults and

929
01:04:24,719 --> 01:04:28,400
they rely on a lot of mental gymnastics. I think

930
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,639
that that is eventually a sign that it's a cult

931
01:04:32,679 --> 01:04:36,159
thing is when you start to see people double down

932
01:04:36,199 --> 01:04:39,400
and use a lot of mental gymnastics. And think of

933
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:47,280
the commonalities here between Mormons, Muslims, Roman Catholics, who else

934
01:04:47,599 --> 01:04:54,800
like you see? You notice the same patterns here, Dance

935
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:58,320
Commander fifty dollars, thank you for these apologetics at a

936
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,639
strengthen my faith. Do you know about roma Manian Saints

937
01:05:00,679 --> 01:05:06,320
of the Prisons? Yeah, I think Father Deacon has told

938
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:10,360
me some of this. I've actually met Father Julian, who

939
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:14,480
was very kind to me. And Father Julian was in

940
01:05:14,559 --> 01:05:17,960
a Romanian prison for a while. I think I think

941
01:05:18,039 --> 01:05:20,760
or he was persecuted and fled here, so he's a

942
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:25,559
pretty well known Orthodox person. But and I've heard him

943
01:05:25,639 --> 01:05:33,000
tell the stories of Romanian saints of the prisons, there

944
01:05:33,079 --> 01:05:39,039
is a certain commission that is blocking their canonization because

945
01:05:39,079 --> 01:05:42,800
they spoke out against the liberalism of the EU. Well,

946
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,639
that doesn't surprise me, and I believe that that makes

947
01:05:45,679 --> 01:05:55,480
perfect sense. So justin we're going to open it up

948
01:05:55,519 --> 01:05:58,320
right here. Please please do not weigh me down with

949
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:04,480
your questions about fasting and those kinds of stuff. Please

950
01:06:04,519 --> 01:06:07,039
don't please. And it never fails because every time we

951
01:06:07,119 --> 01:06:09,360
open it up, half of the people just want to

952
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:13,360
ask me questions about what about the jurisdictions of the

953
01:06:13,639 --> 01:06:17,519
EP versus the MPU. What's going to happen If I

954
01:06:17,599 --> 01:06:19,840
don't know what's going to happen. If there's a ex

955
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,119
communication of those two, there'll be a giant split down

956
01:06:22,159 --> 01:06:25,320
the church. That's the best I could tell you. But

957
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:26,960
by the way, that's happened in the history of the Church.

958
01:06:27,079 --> 01:06:30,159
There have been patriarch its excommunicating one another. That's happened

959
01:06:30,199 --> 01:06:33,719
in church history. So how would that if that is

960
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:40,000
in itself a defeater for the church, then do Roman

961
01:06:40,079 --> 01:06:43,159
Catholics not understand that If the Roman Catholic Church is

962
01:06:43,239 --> 01:06:45,519
the church of the first thousand years, that's a defeater

963
01:06:45,679 --> 01:06:50,519
for your system. Dummy. If you're arguing that patriarch it's

964
01:06:50,559 --> 01:06:54,280
excommunicating each other is a defeater for the system, then

965
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,840
the excommunications of patriarchs in the first thousand years of

966
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:00,440
the church are a defeater for your sistem. You don't

967
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:04,880
see how silly that is. It's such a it's like

968
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,360
they're they're actually I think they're blinded to these things.

969
01:07:07,639 --> 01:07:11,280
I really think you can't. You're blinded to these things.

970
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:13,920
You don't see these things unless there's a kind of

971
01:07:15,239 --> 01:07:19,400
humility and a willingness to to think maybe you're wrong.

972
01:07:22,239 --> 01:07:24,480
Jay did a three hour Torah stream on the tour

973
01:07:24,559 --> 01:07:27,519
the Trinity in the Torah with who with myself. Literally,

974
01:07:27,639 --> 01:07:30,400
just go to my channel. You lazy people that constantly

975
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,639
ask me where is this? Will go to my channel

976
01:07:32,679 --> 01:07:37,320
and scroll down the Trinity in the Torah. It's right there.

977
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:41,599
Speaker 7: By.

978
01:07:41,719 --> 01:07:46,519
Speaker 6: You see, I end up, I end up ranting for

979
01:07:46,559 --> 01:07:46,920
an hour.

980
01:07:49,119 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 19: Yes, hi, I'm learning to ask you about it. I

981
01:07:52,639 --> 01:07:54,639
just saw a clip I think it got posted today.

982
01:07:55,039 --> 01:07:57,440
Debate you had with the more Men and he had

983
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,920
asked you how you know the Bible true, and I

984
01:08:02,039 --> 01:08:06,440
believe you said it was the transcendental argument, and that

985
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:12,000
because the the Trinity is necessary for knowledge and the

986
01:08:12,079 --> 01:08:14,239
Trinity is only revealed in the Bible.

987
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:15,639
Speaker 7: Is that correct?

988
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 13: Uh?

989
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 6: Pretty much, that's the route I would go, Yeah, okay.

990
01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:25,319
Speaker 19: So then I mean, how does that argue for say,

991
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:33,319
the validity of Ruth chapter two or Second Samuel chapter five.

992
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 6: Hold on, you're spitting these things out. What specifically is

993
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:38,680
in Ruth two that's supposed to be a problem.

994
01:08:40,039 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 7: Oh well, I don't know. I mean, I guess the

995
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:42,960
point is, you know.

996
01:08:43,119 --> 01:08:44,600
Speaker 6: What I mean, you don't know? Why are you signing

997
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:45,640
rod too? If you don't know why?

998
01:08:47,239 --> 01:08:50,520
Speaker 7: Well, the point is it's irrelevant what's what's in there?

999
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,560
Speaker 19: The point is, how does that? How does that prove

1000
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:56,520
that the whole Bible is true? Every part of the Bible.

1001
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 6: Because part of the worldview includes that the wholest it's

1002
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,159
a wholestic arguments and arguing for the entire worldview.

1003
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:11,039
Speaker 19: So you would need all every every book, every version

1004
01:09:11,079 --> 01:09:13,640
of the Bible to be true for the Trinity to

1005
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:14,159
be true.

1006
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 6: Well, God didn't have to reveal himself in the Trinity

1007
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:21,560
but that's the means that he chose to use, right,

1008
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:25,279
is divine revelation in scripture and tradition. So in the

1009
01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:27,680
sense that because that's the means he used, yes, but

1010
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,720
it's not the Bible wasn't necessary, right, I mean God was,

1011
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:33,359
God had a relationship with Adam and Eve before there

1012
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,720
was anything written down, and the Trinity was there in

1013
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,119
Genesis right before anything that was recorded or written. So

1014
01:09:39,319 --> 01:09:41,039
there's not there's it's not like it has to be

1015
01:09:41,119 --> 01:09:45,279
written or something like that. It's just how providentially within

1016
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:47,399
history it came down to us. So what I'm saying

1017
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,640
is that there's a fixed body of beliefs, and it

1018
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,399
would still be true even if it wasn't written down

1019
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:54,279
because the early Church, many of the many of the

1020
01:09:55,319 --> 01:09:57,760
members of the Church in the first few centuries, they

1021
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,359
couldn't read, and they didn't have access to a complete

1022
01:10:00,399 --> 01:10:02,439
canon of scripture, and yet they still have the faith.

1023
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:06,560
So the written version is just another kind of attestation

1024
01:10:07,119 --> 01:10:10,359
that helps demonstrate that it's true. It's not like it's

1025
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,359
it's the religion is dependent upon something being written down

1026
01:10:14,399 --> 01:10:14,760
per se.

1027
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:20,319
Speaker 7: Yes, Okay, I really understand that.

1028
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:24,520
Speaker 19: I just don't see how the Trinity being necessary.

1029
01:10:24,119 --> 01:10:27,159
Speaker 7: For knowledge proves the entire Bible is true and in

1030
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:28,800
every job.

1031
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,199
Speaker 6: In till them, because it's an argument not just for

1032
01:10:32,359 --> 01:10:35,399
the Trinity before the entire Christian worldview, and part of

1033
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,800
the Christian worldview is that the Bible is true and

1034
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:43,520
that it's necessary for faith, et cetera. So I think

1035
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:45,880
you keep thinking of it as an argument just for

1036
01:10:46,159 --> 01:10:49,600
a trinity. There's no such thing as trinity in isolation

1037
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:54,000
from incarnation or trinity in isolation from what Jesus teaches

1038
01:10:54,039 --> 01:10:56,800
in the Gospels. It's a package deal, is the argument.

1039
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:03,560
Speaker 19: Okay, So when you say trinity, that's what you're referring to,

1040
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:05,720
is that the whole Christian.

1041
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 7: Faith, orthodox Christian faith exactly. Okay.

1042
01:11:10,039 --> 01:11:13,039
Speaker 19: So, so you need all of Christian teaching that as

1043
01:11:13,079 --> 01:11:15,680
a foundation for any knowledge, and if any one of

1044
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:20,399
those points is missing, then than then justified true.

1045
01:11:20,239 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 7: Belief is not is not founded properly.

1046
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:30,199
Speaker 6: Basically, Yeah, really sure. I mean, in other words, it

1047
01:11:30,239 --> 01:11:33,439
wouldn't make sense to say, well, I believe in the

1048
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:38,039
Christian revelation and I can ground my my epistemology in

1049
01:11:38,119 --> 01:11:41,039
that revelation, but I don't believe in the incarnation like

1050
01:11:41,119 --> 01:11:44,199
that that's a key piece, right, So you wouldn't be

1051
01:11:44,199 --> 01:11:45,119
able to ground it anymore.

1052
01:11:46,079 --> 01:11:50,600
Speaker 7: And so I couldn't. I couldn't affirm.

1053
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 19: The fact that A and not A can can both

1054
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:00,399
be true at the same time, the same in the

1055
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:04,479
same sense, unless I believe the virgin birth.

1056
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:07,319
Speaker 6: Ultimately that would be the case.

1057
01:12:07,399 --> 01:12:12,039
Speaker 7: Yes, could you like flesh that out?

1058
01:12:12,319 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 6: No, because because the principle behind the law of non

1059
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,600
contradiction requires some kind of metaphysic and some kind of

1060
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,439
reality to ground it. Namely, I argue and we demonstrate

1061
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:25,560
that it is the Christian worldview and the Christian metaphysic,

1062
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,439
and that's the package deal that includes the virgin birth.

1063
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:31,119
So it's not directly the case. It's not. It's an

1064
01:12:31,159 --> 01:12:34,359
indirect reference to the whole of the of the religion.

1065
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:38,000
But more directly speaking, it would be grounded in the

1066
01:12:38,079 --> 01:12:40,560
type of God that you're using or arguing for, and

1067
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:43,359
that God also says that the vergin of Earth is

1068
01:12:43,399 --> 01:12:44,880
a crucial part of this paradigm.

1069
01:12:47,039 --> 01:12:52,039
Speaker 19: Okay, So if if one verse of the Bible were true,

1070
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:54,520
or yeah, let's just say one verse.

1071
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 7: Of the Bible were not true, it's made an incorrect.

1072
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:03,800
Speaker 19: Statement, then then no one would have any any foundation

1073
01:13:04,039 --> 01:13:05,279
for logic.

1074
01:13:05,079 --> 01:13:05,640
Speaker 7: For a reason.

1075
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:08,800
Speaker 6: I mean, this can get a little technical with the

1076
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,920
specific verses per se. I don't think that every verse

1077
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,439
has to be I mean, because there are scribal errors.

1078
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,039
And that's why I argued a minute ago that it's

1079
01:13:17,119 --> 01:13:19,640
not a matter of whether everything that's written down is

1080
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:22,159
perfectly written down, because we're not Protestants, We're not worshiping

1081
01:13:22,199 --> 01:13:24,640
a book. You could have the religion with nothing being

1082
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:28,279
written down. It could all be or it could listen, listen,

1083
01:13:28,359 --> 01:13:30,720
it could all be oral tradition. So I could be

1084
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:32,600
a Christian in the year three hundred who can't read

1085
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:36,279
and doesn't have access to the whole Gospel. Right, It's

1086
01:13:36,319 --> 01:13:41,199
not I didn't fart, it's my feet are sweaty. People

1087
01:13:41,239 --> 01:13:44,640
think I'm working over here. My feet sweat on this thing,

1088
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,279
and if I scoot it sounds like it farts. We've

1089
01:13:47,319 --> 01:13:50,279
had this come up many times. But anyway, if I

1090
01:13:50,319 --> 01:13:51,880
do fart, I will let you guys. I'll let you

1091
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:55,199
guys all know, and I'll just fart freely anyway. You

1092
01:13:55,319 --> 01:13:58,199
back to your question. Ahead, back to your question.

1093
01:14:00,159 --> 01:14:03,680
Speaker 19: So I guess what I'm I'm saying is so you

1094
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:05,600
said that you believe that the Bible is true in

1095
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:08,800
the way you can know that is because the Christian

1096
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:12,560
worldview is a foundation for all truth claims.

1097
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:14,520
Speaker 6: In other words, the world view, the worldview, and the

1098
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:16,880
argument could be the same even if nothing was written down.

1099
01:14:18,039 --> 01:14:21,079
Speaker 19: Yes, I understand like the Bible didn't hasn't existed for

1100
01:14:21,119 --> 01:14:25,439
all eternity, but truth in God has yet, so if

1101
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,680
we were to so I'm just trying to like take

1102
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:32,359
that argument and apply it to a specific verse of

1103
01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:35,600
the Bible. Let's pick a verse that's not content there.

1104
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:38,840
Let's say there's a verse that has no textual variants.

1105
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:42,279
All manuscripts agree in the rendering of this verse. I'm

1106
01:14:42,279 --> 01:14:45,159
sure there are many like that that are just exactly

1107
01:14:45,279 --> 01:14:53,079
the same and there's no no variation in the manuscript tradition. Okay, So,

1108
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,960
and let's say that that verse had said something wrong

1109
01:14:57,439 --> 01:15:01,760
incorrect in it about the location of some you know,

1110
01:15:02,119 --> 01:15:03,159
village and.

1111
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:08,159
Speaker 7: You know, in in the period or something like that.

1112
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 19: How would how how So you believe that every verse

1113
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:17,279
of the Bible is true, right, and and you believe

1114
01:15:17,319 --> 01:15:20,399
that because of the Christian worldview as a foundation for knowledge,

1115
01:15:21,359 --> 01:15:25,000
So how would you how would you deal with that

1116
01:15:25,239 --> 01:15:27,960
if there was a verse that was was not true

1117
01:15:28,159 --> 01:15:29,640
or was contested like.

1118
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 6: That, Well, if it's contested, that doesn't really mean it's

1119
01:15:33,039 --> 01:15:35,239
That doesn't necessarily mean it's not true because it's contested.

1120
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,560
But the fact that I mean, you said, if there's

1121
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:45,279
no scribal variations in this in this example, then why

1122
01:15:45,279 --> 01:15:47,960
would why why what would the presupposition be that it's false? Like,

1123
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,000
how would I why would I know it's false? How

1124
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:50,880
would we know it's false?

1125
01:15:53,199 --> 01:15:56,920
Speaker 7: Well, you would know it's false by.

1126
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 19: I don't know, by his historians telling you that that's

1127
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,840
not possible, that you know this is that this place

1128
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:07,880
didn't exist until later in history or something along.

1129
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:09,239
Speaker 6: Those world I mean, that's where it comes down to

1130
01:16:09,319 --> 01:16:12,760
presubpositions that why am I going to trust unbelieving historians

1131
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,800
to tell me the truth about my book when the

1132
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:19,119
questions are more fundamental that unbelieving historians can't give an

1133
01:16:19,119 --> 01:16:22,800
account for their worldview, Right.

1134
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:26,680
Speaker 19: I understand that, But so so your presupposition is going

1135
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:30,119
into it is the Bible is true, this particular verse

1136
01:16:30,239 --> 01:16:30,920
is true.

1137
01:16:31,119 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 7: Even though people say it's it's wrong. It has an error,

1138
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:34,600
And I know that.

1139
01:16:35,319 --> 01:16:41,239
Speaker 19: Because the Christian worldview is the foundation for knowledge, and this.

1140
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,039
Speaker 6: Your whole argument is just yeah, this whole argument is

1141
01:16:44,079 --> 01:16:46,520
just hinging on a Protestant view of scripture, like like

1142
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:49,039
that that we're book worshiper. It's like a Muslim idea

1143
01:16:49,039 --> 01:16:51,199
about the Quran. But that's not the orthodox view of

1144
01:16:51,279 --> 01:16:52,479
what our divine revelation is.

1145
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,239
Speaker 19: Okay, so you're okay with with a verse here they're

1146
01:16:57,439 --> 01:16:59,600
just saying something incorrect.

1147
01:17:00,319 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 6: No, I'm just simply saying that I don't think that

1148
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:06,520
there's incorrect versus. I think there's variant manuscripts and there

1149
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:09,319
are scribal errors, but that doesn't that doesn't mean that

1150
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:10,960
there's erroneous theology.

1151
01:17:13,079 --> 01:17:14,720
Speaker 7: Okay, Yeah, all right.

1152
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:18,840
Speaker 19: I was just trying to use your your epistemology to

1153
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:21,399
try and think of like a thought experiment.

1154
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:24,560
Speaker 6: No, I'm sure it's it's a fair question. Yeah, it's

1155
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,479
a fair question to say, Well, like, if it's a

1156
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,560
package deal, then does every piece of the package have

1157
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:35,119
the same necessity? And I would actually argue no. In

1158
01:17:35,199 --> 01:17:38,720
other words, obviously there are there are some doctrines that

1159
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:42,399
are more fundamental than other doctrines. So even though it's

1160
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,680
a package deal, that doesn't mean that I have to

1161
01:17:45,119 --> 01:17:48,920
know every aspect of the package to have a justification,

1162
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:51,279
because that would be the that would be impossible for

1163
01:17:51,359 --> 01:17:54,680
any worldview. Nobody could have all of the facts of

1164
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:57,199
their worldview if that was what was needed for justification

1165
01:17:57,279 --> 01:17:58,560
of a worldview. Does that make sense.

1166
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:05,119
Speaker 19: Yeah, there's different tiers of facts, so obviously, like the Trinity,

1167
01:18:05,199 --> 01:18:07,920
the incarnation, these will be a top tier type of thing.

1168
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:13,840
So you said that you have made that argument where

1169
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:17,159
you where you go through the full argument of how

1170
01:18:17,319 --> 01:18:20,520
the Christian worldview is needed as a foundation for knowledge.

1171
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:22,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've done it many many times.

1172
01:18:23,279 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 7: Okay, do you recall offhand a title or a video?

1173
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:28,159
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, how about I just do it right

1174
01:18:28,199 --> 01:18:31,560
now because everybody always asks this question. So anytime you

1175
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:34,840
say predicate at all, if you make a sentence, that

1176
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,560
requires a certain kind of metaphysic, a certain kind of world,

1177
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:42,640
a certain kind of construct to where there's universals, there

1178
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:46,840
are particulars, there's identity over time, there is a self,

1179
01:18:47,199 --> 01:18:51,800
there's a nowhere like, there's objective knowledge, there are laws

1180
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:54,600
of logic. You understand that all those things are necessary

1181
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,640
to make a sentence, and so that kind of world

1182
01:18:58,399 --> 01:19:00,720
is the world that they're just so hops the Christian

1183
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,640
God creates the universals are grounded in him. It's a

1184
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:08,159
form of divine conceptualism. Therefore it's Christian theism. That's I mean,

1185
01:19:08,239 --> 01:19:10,640
there's more to it. But how's that for a short summation.

1186
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:15,159
Speaker 7: Uh, yeah, I'll have to listen back to that.

1187
01:19:16,119 --> 01:19:18,119
Speaker 19: It's kind of a lot fast, and I'm not familiar

1188
01:19:18,159 --> 01:19:20,159
with a lot of those terms, so I appreciate you

1189
01:19:21,079 --> 01:19:21,279
for me.

1190
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:23,760
Speaker 6: Yeah. No, I mean they're great questions. I welcome those questions.

1191
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:26,159
Speaker 7: Cool. Thank you.

1192
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:38,600
Speaker 6: X X cyber shout out to fifteen hundred. Uh, this

1193
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:41,760
is more than my usual audience, so I'm glad to

1194
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:45,479
have fifteen hundred live. That's a little bit more than usual.

1195
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:52,279
So the last two live streams have had more than normal.

1196
01:19:53,319 --> 01:19:58,239
You got to immune x X see why I'm mute.

1197
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:03,600
Speaker 7: Thank you for the mic. Well, this is my whole issue.

1198
01:20:04,359 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 20: So my entire life, I identified as being a Christian,

1199
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,600
and I always felt there was something off with the

1200
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:13,279
Bible because it was written by man. I do understand

1201
01:20:13,319 --> 01:20:16,960
that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but I

1202
01:20:17,239 --> 01:20:19,680
went through a really hard time and after sitting there

1203
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:21,439
and identifying, up till.

1204
01:20:21,279 --> 01:20:23,680
Speaker 7: The age of thirty six, I had this.

1205
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:27,079
Speaker 20: Thought pop in my head, and it was, what if

1206
01:20:27,079 --> 01:20:29,439
I pray to my father God in heaven and asked

1207
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:32,319
my father God to allow my brother to feel the

1208
01:20:32,319 --> 01:20:33,279
shame of the guilt.

1209
01:20:33,079 --> 01:20:35,159
Speaker 17: Of allowing his pride to get the best of him.

1210
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:38,199
Speaker 20: And what if my brother forgave me for hating him

1211
01:20:38,199 --> 01:20:40,600
my entire life without ever getting to know him, because

1212
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:42,720
it's all I knew, because it's all I was taught.

1213
01:20:43,359 --> 01:20:46,079
And then what if he accepted Jesus as his Lord

1214
01:20:46,119 --> 01:20:48,800
and savior aka has check in balance.

1215
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 15: To ensure he could never do what he did before again?

1216
01:20:51,319 --> 01:20:54,640
Speaker 20: And then what if he took accountability and responsibility and

1217
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:56,720
went to his father and asked for forgiveness and his

1218
01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:57,600
father forgave him.

1219
01:20:58,199 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 17: And then what if his father asked for his forgiveness?

1220
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:03,039
Speaker 20: Because there's no manual on how to be a perfectly

1221
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:05,239
perfect parent, because we're.

1222
01:21:05,039 --> 01:21:06,960
Speaker 7: All made perfectly imperfect.

1223
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:11,119
Speaker 20: We're all pieces of God's creation and He loves us all.

1224
01:21:11,319 --> 01:21:14,720
Speaker 7: So in that moment, I thought, we've all talked about

1225
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:16,960
world peace. Why can't there be world peace?

1226
01:21:22,359 --> 01:21:25,760
Speaker 6: Was there a question in that somewhere? I'm totally lost?

1227
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:30,119
Speaker 21: Yeah, Why why does it say that there's no salvation

1228
01:21:30,279 --> 01:21:30,720
for Satan.

1229
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:36,000
Speaker 6: Wait, how what he's about world peace and forgiveness?

1230
01:21:36,079 --> 01:21:36,239
Speaker 7: Not? What?

1231
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:38,399
Speaker 6: How are you at this? I don't understand.

1232
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:43,640
Speaker 20: Right, Well, most most religions have different views on you know,

1233
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:47,640
Jesus and whether or not Satan can be forgiven, and

1234
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:51,000
Christians they're hung up on Satan will never be forgiven,

1235
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:54,840
and I don't understand how that is.

1236
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:02,960
Speaker 6: Well. I think the God holds humans less responsible because

1237
01:22:03,359 --> 01:22:08,880
of the exceeding gifts and higher place that the angels

1238
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:13,359
were given. So they're a lot more accountable than Adam

1239
01:22:13,399 --> 01:22:17,159
and Eve were because of their sin. And so we

1240
01:22:17,279 --> 01:22:21,479
also believe that in the Christian view, Christ was always

1241
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:25,000
going to become incarnate, even whether there was a fall

1242
01:22:25,119 --> 01:22:27,439
or not. The fall is not the reason who became incarnate.

1243
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,760
And so one of the reasons that Satan was motivated

1244
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:34,279
to hate mankind was out of envy, because the son

1245
01:22:34,359 --> 01:22:37,039
of God was going to raise human nature, and that

1246
01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:40,319
made the angels that rebelled with him envious that man

1247
01:22:40,399 --> 01:22:42,640
would be raised to that status. They didn't feel like

1248
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:46,920
man should be given that. So the the envy and

1249
01:22:47,159 --> 01:22:52,920
the greater responsibility and accountability is why the demons cannot

1250
01:22:52,960 --> 01:23:00,279
be forgiven. Hello.

1251
01:23:02,079 --> 01:23:05,840
Speaker 21: Yes, So I'm wondering if a linguistic.

1252
01:23:06,159 --> 01:23:08,800
Speaker 6: You're what you're cutting out.

1253
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:09,720
Speaker 7: I'm wondering if.

1254
01:23:11,239 --> 01:23:12,359
Speaker 6: Can you start over your cutting?

1255
01:23:14,359 --> 01:23:16,119
Speaker 7: Is that better? Ahead?

1256
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:23,159
Speaker 22: I'm wondering if linguistic experts ever got together and translated

1257
01:23:23,399 --> 01:23:24,840
the original doctrines.

1258
01:23:26,399 --> 01:23:29,159
Speaker 6: I mean, I think every translation is some group of

1259
01:23:29,279 --> 01:23:30,760
linguistic experts. So what do you mean?

1260
01:23:34,039 --> 01:23:37,039
Speaker 20: So it's like in the Bible it says at the

1261
01:23:37,159 --> 01:23:39,640
beginning was the Word, and the word was God.

1262
01:23:40,319 --> 01:23:45,039
Speaker 17: And that means so much more than we were loized, because.

1263
01:23:45,159 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 22: Words can be either the greatest weapons or the greatest inspiration.

1264
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:54,600
Speaker 6: Do you do you know in the in Genesis one

1265
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:57,479
what that Greek word is in the in the Steps?

1266
01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:00,319
Speaker 7: I do not.

1267
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:09,319
Speaker 6: Yes, it is phronsia. The Greek term when God creates

1268
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:13,000
is phronsia. And then if you go down a couple

1269
01:24:13,079 --> 01:24:17,880
more verses, you'll see uh Cabernet Sauvignon, and you'll see

1270
01:24:18,239 --> 01:24:26,720
uh sweet Valley Red to quote Steve sweet Cherry Red.

1271
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:27,399
Did you know that?

1272
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,000
Speaker 21: I didn't do that, But I will tell you I

1273
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:37,199
have been looking for, you know, Jesus' words in this

1274
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:40,880
and have you been to archive dot organ like the

1275
01:24:41,359 --> 01:24:42,840
Jesus in his own words.

1276
01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:47,279
Speaker 6: Uh, no, tell me about that, because I'm going to argue.

1277
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:49,199
You can see where I'm going to go with this, right,

1278
01:24:49,239 --> 01:24:52,760
If Genesis one is using uh, Cabernet Sauvignon and someone

1279
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:55,520
on blanc and Phronsia, I'm gonna automatically argue that in

1280
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:59,000
the Book of Matthew, the actual Hebrew translation of those

1281
01:24:59,079 --> 01:25:07,039
texts is the is merlou. And I forget the barefoot

1282
01:25:07,359 --> 01:25:09,560
because that's another key brand you have to be aware of.

1283
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:16,680
Are you aware of barefoot? Yeah? But logos in Logos

1284
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:23,760
in Hebrew is actually Merlou. See, people don't know about

1285
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:26,600
the Hebrew translation of Matthew. Everybody thinks, oh, Matthew is

1286
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:28,880
written in Greek. No, no, no, no, I'm talking about

1287
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:33,279
the original Hebrew, early Hebrew roots Jewish Christians of the

1288
01:25:33,319 --> 01:25:37,079
first century who translated correctly the Book of Matthew to

1289
01:25:37,239 --> 01:25:47,760
include Merleau and Cabernet Sauvignon vic. I forgot. Yes, that's

1290
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:50,800
a great point, sir. Eclipse a lot Shiraz is also

1291
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:56,159
a key a key component as well. Now some say

1292
01:25:56,319 --> 01:26:00,479
that there's variant texts that include Virginia Slims. I actually

1293
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:04,039
think those are false. Manuscripts. Those were Gnostic additions to

1294
01:26:04,199 --> 01:26:09,159
include the Virginia Slam variant VIC.

1295
01:26:10,399 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 17: Hey, just a quick question.

1296
01:26:12,159 --> 01:26:14,199
Speaker 23: I've been reading some of Greg bond Sin's work, and

1297
01:26:14,279 --> 01:26:19,479
I was curious as to do any of his Calvinists

1298
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:24,920
like positions or views influence his apologetic in.

1299
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:27,159
Speaker 7: A way that we as Orthodox should.

1300
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:27,319
Speaker 17: Be aware of.

1301
01:26:28,079 --> 01:26:32,560
Speaker 6: Yes, I think the inconsistency about the notion of total depravity.

1302
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:35,920
I had a long email back and forth back in

1303
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:39,159
the day with John Framan about this, the idea that

1304
01:26:40,159 --> 01:26:46,000
total pravity is always affecting our noetic understanding, including after

1305
01:26:46,279 --> 01:26:49,239
we're saved, such that we could never really have a

1306
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:53,319
certain interpretation of any text, and thus the Church could

1307
01:26:53,359 --> 01:26:59,359
never actually after the Apostles infallibly state or believe anything.

1308
01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:01,760
But the problem is that, well that's the case, then

1309
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:04,800
what did the same thing apply to my knowledge of

1310
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:07,239
the Trinity and my interpretation of the text or my

1311
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:10,359
deriving the Trinity from the text. So that seems to

1312
01:27:10,399 --> 01:27:12,720
be me to be kind of an insoluble problem for

1313
01:27:13,479 --> 01:27:16,399
total depravity believing Calvinists. If you're if you believe in tag.

1314
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:20,520
Greg Bonnson has a position kind of similar to James

1315
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:25,600
White that he thinks that there's a plain meaning persepecuity

1316
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:27,680
of the texts. The text just mean what they say,

1317
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:29,600
and they say what they mean. And yet at the

1318
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:33,199
same time he believes that you have to have a

1319
01:27:33,319 --> 01:27:38,359
holistic canonical view that harmonizes all of these things. And

1320
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:40,279
so once again, I think that's a really problem, a

1321
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:43,000
real deep problem for a Protestant, because, I mean, the

1322
01:27:43,279 --> 01:27:46,439
Doctor the Trinity is in scripture and the Saints believed it,

1323
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:49,680
but it also requires a lot of these patristic terms

1324
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:53,000
and argumentation to solidify it and to make it clear.

1325
01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:55,359
And so I think there's a there's a back, and

1326
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:59,159
there's an inconsistency when Protestants think that the text clearly

1327
01:27:59,239 --> 01:28:02,159
teaches the Trinity, and yet they go into all this depth,

1328
01:28:02,279 --> 01:28:05,720
with all this metaphysics which the Church Fathers explicate to

1329
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:08,520
help understand the Trinity, which are not immediately apparent in

1330
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:12,800
the texts. So how is he how are you gonna

1331
01:28:13,239 --> 01:28:18,039
ground your epistemology in the Trinity if total depravity is

1332
01:28:18,079 --> 01:28:22,800
true and if the Trinity isn't actually explicitly taught in

1333
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:24,920
the way that the New Testament, or excuse me, that

1334
01:28:25,039 --> 01:28:32,560
the Church fathers teaching in the Bible Bonson teaches an

1335
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:36,760
absolute divine simplicity, which is the Augustinian view, which ultimately

1336
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,159
would collapse nature in person. It would result in a

1337
01:28:39,239 --> 01:28:43,319
neoplatonic monad. And that wouldn't work to ground that your

1338
01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:48,640
knowledge because there's no essence inary distinction. Van Til said

1339
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:52,479
the essence of God is a person, which is obviously heretical.

1340
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:55,840
I don't know if Bonson ever rejected that or if

1341
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:58,199
he ever talked about it, but obviously that's not true.

1342
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:01,239
So I mean, it's funny because Van Till has the

1343
01:29:01,359 --> 01:29:04,199
right idea about making the distinction between nature and person,

1344
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:10,720
and he was obviously confused and was grasping for monarchical trinitarianism,

1345
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,119
but he didn't know about that. So what he's his

1346
01:29:13,319 --> 01:29:16,159
mistake is hitting upon what's missing, one of the things

1347
01:29:16,159 --> 01:29:21,039
that's missing, which is monarchical trinitarianism. Anyway, I mean, there's

1348
01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:24,399
you could keep going, but those are I think good.

1349
01:29:25,399 --> 01:29:27,920
You could argue too that their version of tag is

1350
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:33,680
because it doesn't have the essence centery distinction. It would

1351
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:37,279
be like the way William Lane Craig argues for divine conceptualism,

1352
01:29:37,319 --> 01:29:39,960
which ends up being platonism. And so if you think

1353
01:29:40,079 --> 01:29:45,119
universals are God. Now you got a problem because are

1354
01:29:45,199 --> 01:29:49,239
they divine essence is a universal the divine person? How

1355
01:29:49,359 --> 01:29:52,479
is a universal God? I mean in the Orthodox view,

1356
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:54,880
their logi or well, the universal are creative, but they're

1357
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:57,640
they're based on uncreated logi. So if you don't have

1358
01:29:57,680 --> 01:30:00,000
a logos, logi doctrine, I don't think you're gonna be

1359
01:30:00,039 --> 01:30:06,920
able to make it work. Beacon. Those are elements that

1360
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:07,479
come to mind.

1361
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 17: Hey, j.

1362
01:30:14,039 --> 01:30:16,520
Speaker 7: So I have two very short questions.

1363
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,119
Speaker 24: So I'm in the Protestant apologetic The three that you

1364
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:24,199
arguments you see get wheeled around a lot, cosmological, teleological, moral,

1365
01:30:25,399 --> 01:30:29,560
Did you cover any of those three in your debate.

1366
01:30:29,399 --> 01:30:30,039
Speaker 7: With Trent Horn?

1367
01:30:30,319 --> 01:30:32,600
Speaker 24: Because I'm trying to find some good resources because I've

1368
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,520
heard you say that even Bertrand Russell pointed out that

1369
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:42,359
the cosmological is a uh non sequitur makes this infinite?

1370
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:48,000
Oh sorry, they to my apologies. Do you do you

1371
01:30:48,159 --> 01:30:51,279
have any good papers or past debates you've done refuting these.

1372
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 17: Arguments.

1373
01:30:53,239 --> 01:30:57,479
Speaker 6: Just read the doctor Gary p paper Theistic Fallacies. That's

1374
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:00,840
got it one of the best right here, and we

1375
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:03,800
have multiple live streams that we've done for years. If

1376
01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:10,520
you can scroll down here to critiquing papacy, critiquing the

1377
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:17,760
classical arguments Matt Dill Hunty dire debate aquinas in classical

1378
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:21,479
theism critiqued right here on the front page of my channel.

1379
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:24,279
There's two This is four and a half hours on that.

1380
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:28,359
You can go down here to my traditional metaphysics talks

1381
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:37,359
the one, two, three, four right here, Law and natural

1382
01:31:37,399 --> 01:31:41,960
theology don't exist, God's existence, natural revelation, and logie right there,

1383
01:31:43,199 --> 01:31:46,640
those all cover that. Well, thank you for those questions,

1384
01:31:47,359 --> 01:31:51,840
but yeah, go ahead, go ahead. We just hit eighteen hundred.

1385
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:53,479
That's crazy. Go ahead.

1386
01:31:56,840 --> 01:31:59,000
Speaker 7: And me go ahead. I just told you I forgot

1387
01:31:59,039 --> 01:31:59,880
my own questions that.

1388
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:01,600
Speaker 6: Oh I thought you said I have one other question.

1389
01:32:01,760 --> 01:32:04,159
Speaker 17: That's fine, Oh I did. I just forgot it.

1390
01:32:04,319 --> 01:32:08,520
Speaker 6: Okay, that's fine. What's up that boy, that boy in

1391
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:16,319
the house. I'm about the foot fart on your face? Boy? Then,

1392
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:19,640
and I box wine that Virginia slams is giving me gas. Baby,

1393
01:32:23,279 --> 01:32:27,760
my uncreated foot had according to the classical traditional sahi

1394
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:31,560
hadeth of foot farting. My perfect look. Isn't a foot

1395
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:34,479
that farts more perfect than a foot that doesn't fart?

1396
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:37,279
If your foot they didn't fart, it would like inflate

1397
01:32:37,399 --> 01:32:41,159
and pop. So a foot that farts is actually more

1398
01:32:41,279 --> 01:32:43,920
perfect according to the logic of itment.

1399
01:32:43,720 --> 01:32:49,680
Speaker 7: To me, what's up that boy, Hello, Pastor Randy.

1400
01:32:50,399 --> 01:32:54,000
Speaker 6: I'm great. By the way, it doesn't an uncreated farting

1401
01:32:54,079 --> 01:32:55,439
foot fart perfectly.

1402
01:32:56,439 --> 01:32:58,840
Speaker 7: H Yeah, I was just gonna say, my foot does

1403
01:32:58,920 --> 01:32:59,439
not fart.

1404
01:33:00,159 --> 01:33:02,720
Speaker 25: Wish it did, because it looks like I have elephantitus

1405
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:04,840
of the Achilles heel.

1406
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:05,079
Speaker 7: At the moment.

1407
01:33:05,239 --> 01:33:07,560
Speaker 6: So that's gallop, buddy, that's you've got some gollop over there.

1408
01:33:08,159 --> 01:33:09,000
Speaker 7: Okay, thank you.

1409
01:33:10,039 --> 01:33:11,640
Speaker 6: If you put your hands on the screen, I can

1410
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:12,359
heal your gallop.

1411
01:33:13,119 --> 01:33:15,279
Speaker 7: Oh okay, I'm actually putting my foot on it.

1412
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:21,239
Speaker 6: Oh it's getting dirty up in here. Hey, go ahead.

1413
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:26,039
Speaker 25: So my wife and I recently became catechumen in the church,

1414
01:33:27,039 --> 01:33:31,399
and one thing that's come up for us is the

1415
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:35,720
not just the veneration of the Cross, but the worshiping

1416
01:33:36,279 --> 01:33:40,680
of the cross and praying to the cross. And it

1417
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:44,479
seems I guess it's probably maybe obvious why that would

1418
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:46,239
be weird for a Protestant.

1419
01:33:46,359 --> 01:33:47,479
Speaker 7: To see that.

1420
01:33:47,760 --> 01:33:51,439
Speaker 25: And you know, I understand praying to saints, venerating saints

1421
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:54,479
worshiping through the icon of Christ.

1422
01:33:55,359 --> 01:33:57,960
Speaker 7: But what's up with this worshiping the cross?

1423
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:03,479
Speaker 6: Well, again, worship is veneration. It's not the same worship

1424
01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:06,039
that's given to the uncreated. So we honor the cross

1425
01:34:06,119 --> 01:34:09,479
because it's the instrument of our salvation. Uh, it's the

1426
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:13,199
and so as John Damascus says, the honor given to

1427
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:16,880
the type passes to the prototype. So we're honoring Christ

1428
01:34:16,960 --> 01:34:19,399
by honoring the cross. It's not that we worship a

1429
01:34:19,439 --> 01:34:20,039
piece of wood.

1430
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:22,000
Speaker 7: Okay.

1431
01:34:22,159 --> 01:34:26,800
Speaker 25: So I guess why is why is their prayers to

1432
01:34:27,359 --> 01:34:30,520
the to the cross if the cross is not sentient

1433
01:34:31,159 --> 01:34:32,119
you know, I mean it's a cross.

1434
01:34:32,119 --> 01:34:33,720
Speaker 7: I mean at the end, it's it's still a cross.

1435
01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:37,760
Speaker 6: Like well, I mean there's like there's there's adulation to

1436
01:34:38,039 --> 01:34:40,800
this instrument. I don't know that anyone's asking the cross

1437
01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:43,199
to do things like it's personal. But if there is

1438
01:34:43,239 --> 01:34:45,920
a statement like that, the assumption is that the one

1439
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:48,279
who died on the cross is it's that it's passing

1440
01:34:48,359 --> 01:34:49,159
to the prototype.

1441
01:34:50,079 --> 01:34:50,359
Speaker 7: Okay.

1442
01:34:50,479 --> 01:34:53,600
Speaker 25: So when when worship or prayer is done toward the cross,

1443
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:56,479
it's being pointed towards Christ.

1444
01:34:56,399 --> 01:34:59,359
Speaker 6: Not yes, not the cross itself. And no one thinks

1445
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:01,680
that piece of wood in itself does anything.

1446
01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:02,199
Speaker 7: But the.

1447
01:35:04,239 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 6: Form of the cross is what burns the demons, because

1448
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:08,119
it's the instrument of our salvation.

1449
01:35:08,640 --> 01:35:12,479
Speaker 7: So the let God Arise prayer to the Holy Cross.

1450
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:19,199
Speaker 25: It's the prayer speaks to the cross and then makes

1451
01:35:19,239 --> 01:35:22,880
the distinction between the Cross and Christ. I don't have

1452
01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:24,840
it pulled up in front of me, but it's I mean,

1453
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,319
it's pretty simple to find it. Like the first thing

1454
01:35:27,359 --> 01:35:31,800
that pulls up and you type in let God arise, I.

1455
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:36,520
Speaker 6: Mean it's so. Let God arise, and let his enemies

1456
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:38,319
be scattered. Let those who hate him flee from his

1457
01:35:38,399 --> 01:35:41,079
face a smoke vanishes. Let them vanish as wax melts

1458
01:35:41,079 --> 01:35:43,079
from the presidents of fire. So let the demons pairs

1459
01:35:43,079 --> 01:35:45,079
from the presidents of those who love God and who

1460
01:35:45,119 --> 01:35:46,840
signed themselves with a sign of the cross, and say,

1461
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:49,960
with gladness Hell, most precious life, giving cross to the Lord.

1462
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:52,560
You drive away the demons by the power of the Lord.

1463
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:54,720
So it's not the wood that's doing it. It's the

1464
01:35:55,119 --> 01:35:57,520
power of the Lord through the Cross that does it.

1465
01:35:57,960 --> 01:36:00,760
For it was Christ. It was cruticified on ye, and

1466
01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:03,039
you went down into hell and trampled on the power

1467
01:36:03,079 --> 01:36:06,039
of the devil his honorable Cross for driving away the enemies.

1468
01:36:06,159 --> 01:36:09,560
So you understand that we believe that created things can

1469
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:12,760
be endued with this power via the divine energies. This

1470
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:15,600
is the whole idea behind icons and why icons are holy.

1471
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:19,000
It's not because they're just because they're creatures. It's because

1472
01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:21,079
they're creatures who have been endude with this power via

1473
01:36:21,119 --> 01:36:22,159
the uncreated energies.

1474
01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:25,720
Speaker 7: Okay, so I guess it.

1475
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:28,159
Speaker 25: It would be fair to say it's a poetic or

1476
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:31,640
you know, some sort of poetic language to speak to

1477
01:36:31,720 --> 01:36:35,159
the Cross, but like in the spiritual.

1478
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:37,159
Speaker 6: Reality, Yeah, I mean it's poetic language you you drive

1479
01:36:37,239 --> 01:36:40,479
away the power of the demons speaking to it, but

1480
01:36:41,039 --> 01:36:42,000
it literally does that.

1481
01:36:44,039 --> 01:36:48,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, okay, cool, Yeah, that's a I think that's

1482
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:48,960
all I get.

1483
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:53,119
Speaker 6: That's okay, that's a good question. I've actually I've actually

1484
01:36:53,159 --> 01:36:57,399
never had that question. So that was an interesting question. Dallas,

1485
01:36:57,439 --> 01:37:03,359
what's up, dude, Globe?

1486
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:08,680
Speaker 26: Yep, Yeah, I would just argue that the Virginia Slim

1487
01:37:09,039 --> 01:37:10,119
variant should be there.

1488
01:37:10,920 --> 01:37:12,760
Speaker 6: Okay. I mean, you're gonna have to give me at

1489
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:16,239
least two or three wine moms that have actually within

1490
01:37:16,319 --> 01:37:18,079
the history of the church back that up. I'm not

1491
01:37:18,159 --> 01:37:21,039
going to just accept your arbitrary accusation that the Virginia

1492
01:37:21,079 --> 01:37:23,920
Slam variant is valid unless you give me proof of that.

1493
01:37:24,439 --> 01:37:26,800
Name three wine name three wine moms that prove that.

1494
01:37:28,199 --> 01:37:30,560
Speaker 7: Well, think Bud the Wise are actually quoted it.

1495
01:37:30,640 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 6: Okay, that's one. That's one.

1496
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:34,199
Speaker 7: And if you actually look in.

1497
01:37:34,199 --> 01:37:36,399
Speaker 27: The verse before, we also have the variant reading of

1498
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:38,319
Paul maul menthol.

1499
01:37:39,199 --> 01:37:42,000
Speaker 6: And actually, okay, I mean that's contested, but I'll grant

1500
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:43,520
you that's only two. Dude, I give you. I said

1501
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:49,119
give me three exactly exactly. You can't do it. You

1502
01:37:49,119 --> 01:37:53,880
can't do it exactly. I mean, you understand the sonoticon

1503
01:37:55,279 --> 01:38:00,439
excommunicates you for that, right, you understand that. Yeah, I'm

1504
01:38:01,319 --> 01:38:04,199
nation exactly. So again, the whole chat is laughing at you.

1505
01:38:04,399 --> 01:38:08,960
You just got refuted, You just got burnt. What's up, man,

1506
01:38:09,119 --> 01:38:09,520
what's up?

1507
01:38:10,119 --> 01:38:12,000
Speaker 28: I don't I don't have an organ I just can't

1508
01:38:12,039 --> 01:38:14,600
believe some of the questions.

1509
01:38:14,319 --> 01:38:15,359
Speaker 3: People as well.

1510
01:38:15,359 --> 01:38:15,640
Speaker 18: You know what?

1511
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:20,600
Speaker 6: That makes it a fruitful cornucopia of a wide Look,

1512
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:24,720
as Francis says, God wills the various religious expressions of

1513
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:27,960
all of the wine moms, all of the dostic, ancient aliens,

1514
01:38:28,039 --> 01:38:30,479
all of the slam poetry people, God wills, all of that.

1515
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:33,239
Did you not listen to Francis? It's part of the

1516
01:38:33,319 --> 01:38:34,520
diversity of the human experience.

1517
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:38,520
Speaker 7: Bro Listen if I listened to Francis being haled tonight.

1518
01:38:39,159 --> 01:38:40,479
Speaker 10: Well just put it that way.

1519
01:38:40,720 --> 01:38:45,239
Speaker 6: Look, the question really is which are the fart hadiths

1520
01:38:45,359 --> 01:38:47,359
that we're supposed to follow? I mean, my foot's been

1521
01:38:47,399 --> 01:38:50,000
fart and since the beginning of this live stream is

1522
01:38:50,079 --> 01:38:52,640
that sahi? Do I need to do an ablution?

1523
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:54,279
Speaker 7: Is it? What?

1524
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:55,680
Speaker 6: Was it a perfect fart?

1525
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:56,079
Speaker 7: Do we know?

1526
01:38:57,399 --> 01:38:59,800
Speaker 18: Was it in prayer? Because then you have to total

1527
01:39:00,039 --> 01:39:00,399
he again?

1528
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:02,720
Speaker 6: Right, that's what I'm saying. Does the stream have to

1529
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:05,840
start all over? We gotta start all over. I just

1530
01:39:06,039 --> 01:39:08,800
dirtied the stream by my foot fart and against this

1531
01:39:09,079 --> 01:39:12,720
sweaty ass chair. So you didn't have a question. You

1532
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:15,600
just try to argue with me over the Virginia slim variant. Well, look, man,

1533
01:39:16,319 --> 01:39:19,039
you gave two arguments and not a third. So you're

1534
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:27,119
you're refuted, You're defeated. Context Saint Fransia is one of

1535
01:39:27,159 --> 01:39:31,199
the most famous Latin saints of the early Renaissance period.

1536
01:39:32,600 --> 01:39:35,039
She does have a lot of key argumentation. She's got

1537
01:39:35,079 --> 01:39:38,920
a lot of wise things to say, but look, I

1538
01:39:39,079 --> 01:39:45,640
just can't accept that she's a saint. I'm sorry, context,

1539
01:39:45,680 --> 01:39:51,000
what's up again on you? What's it's called? She's called

1540
01:39:51,720 --> 01:39:52,960
Saint Fransia the Woozy.

1541
01:39:56,039 --> 01:39:58,760
Speaker 7: I have a question about orthodox.

1542
01:39:58,600 --> 01:40:02,239
Speaker 6: Okay, brother? What does your question? Yeah?

1543
01:40:02,279 --> 01:40:05,560
Speaker 7: Why there's so many gropers in Orthodoxy online?

1544
01:40:07,439 --> 01:40:10,159
Speaker 6: There's not. The gropers are almost always trad cats. What

1545
01:40:10,159 --> 01:40:10,680
do you mean.

1546
01:40:12,720 --> 01:40:15,199
Speaker 7: Now? I see a lot of jew hating gropers in

1547
01:40:15,319 --> 01:40:16,159
the authosphere.

1548
01:40:17,000 --> 01:40:19,000
Speaker 6: Well, I mean that's the minority. So I don't know

1549
01:40:19,079 --> 01:40:21,800
what you're talking about. I mean, literally, they're all tradecats.

1550
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:22,560
What are you talking about?

1551
01:40:24,359 --> 01:40:28,720
Speaker 29: Go check an account called Conscious Philosopher one hundred k followers.

1552
01:40:29,079 --> 01:40:30,119
Speaker 7: It's not a small account.

1553
01:40:30,119 --> 01:40:31,920
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm not. Okay, So there's one. I mean,

1554
01:40:32,039 --> 01:40:33,680
but what about it? Do you have an argument? What's

1555
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:36,840
your argument? Yeah?

1556
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:41,239
Speaker 29: Well, my argument is that it seems like Orthodoxy is

1557
01:40:41,239 --> 01:40:43,359
a gateway into anti Semitism.

1558
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:47,159
Speaker 6: Oh sure, And what's your worldview.

1559
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:49,039
Speaker 7: Christian?

1560
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:50,680
Speaker 6: What kind of Christian?

1561
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 7: Non denominational?

1562
01:40:53,159 --> 01:40:55,199
Speaker 6: Uh huh? And why so we're supposed to believe in

1563
01:40:55,239 --> 01:41:02,920
no denominational Christianity. So you're a social justice for you. No,

1564
01:41:03,199 --> 01:41:22,680
not really, get out here, magic, Mike, what.

1565
01:41:24,199 --> 01:41:24,880
Speaker 18: How are you doing?

1566
01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:30,119
Speaker 6: My foot's farting NonStop? And I need to start the

1567
01:41:30,239 --> 01:41:33,439
stream over why I in no way?

1568
01:41:33,479 --> 01:41:35,600
Speaker 18: So I wanted to talk a little bit about the

1569
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:38,319
Old Testament and the Trinity. I mean, I've heard you

1570
01:41:38,399 --> 01:41:42,680
say that there's trinity in the Old Testament and Abraham

1571
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:46,399
believed that that God was a trying God. But I mean,

1572
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:49,840
how do you justify any of that because, like, for example,

1573
01:41:49,880 --> 01:41:52,039
when he goes to the Old Testament, right, you see

1574
01:41:52,199 --> 01:41:54,760
God saying that, you know, if there's a prophet coming

1575
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:58,239
along saying that you should worship, for example, a different God,

1576
01:41:58,319 --> 01:42:00,880
you have to stone that stuff less profit, you know.

1577
01:42:01,479 --> 01:42:04,159
Speaker 6: Hold on, before you start spitting out these verses. Have

1578
01:42:04,319 --> 01:42:06,920
you watched my three hour livestream going through all the

1579
01:42:07,039 --> 01:42:08,359
verses on the trinity in the Torah?

1580
01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:11,039
Speaker 7: Okay?

1581
01:42:11,279 --> 01:42:13,239
Speaker 6: Have you read any Have you read any of the

1582
01:42:13,319 --> 01:42:17,800
Jewish scholars nowadays like Sommer Barn and others that admit

1583
01:42:18,359 --> 01:42:24,119
that there's difference in persons in God in the Old Testament? Okay, fine,

1584
01:42:24,359 --> 01:42:27,159
and hold on. I asked you a question, are you

1585
01:42:27,159 --> 01:42:27,520
aware of it?

1586
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:28,119
Speaker 18: I haven't.

1587
01:42:28,159 --> 01:42:30,359
Speaker 6: Okay, are you aware of the basic text where we

1588
01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:31,560
make these arguments.

1589
01:42:31,239 --> 01:42:35,239
Speaker 18: From a little bit of familiarity.

1590
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:37,800
Speaker 6: I think, okay, so like, what's what's one or two

1591
01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:39,119
of the what's one of the two of the verses

1592
01:42:39,159 --> 01:42:39,640
that we go to.

1593
01:42:40,680 --> 01:42:45,159
Speaker 18: I think Angel of the Lord Exodus three, that's one. Yeah, yeah,

1594
01:42:45,319 --> 01:42:47,359
so there. I mean, I can't think of on top

1595
01:42:47,399 --> 01:42:49,159
of my head, but I do know, okay, that you

1596
01:42:49,359 --> 01:42:51,479
talk about a few. So for example, I mean, okay,

1597
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:53,840
you can, let's say that there is a little bit

1598
01:42:53,880 --> 01:42:57,920
of multiplicity within the God had the Old Testament, But

1599
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:00,000
how do you derive I mean, that's not doesn't happen

1600
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:01,479
to be the Trinity explicitly?

1601
01:43:01,760 --> 01:43:05,159
Speaker 6: Okay, throughout the Old Testament there's only three that are mentioned.

1602
01:43:05,680 --> 01:43:10,359
There's the Yahweh, his Angel, Covenant, Messenger, and Spirit. Those

1603
01:43:10,399 --> 01:43:12,640
three are mentioned. So how many how many more would

1604
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:12,880
there be?

1605
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:16,760
Speaker 18: So for okay, sure you can say that there's three.

1606
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:17,840
Why is the spirit?

1607
01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:19,560
Speaker 6: Well no, wait a minute, you just said why would

1608
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:21,119
you just said why would hold on? You just said

1609
01:43:21,119 --> 01:43:22,880
why would it be trinity? And now you're saying, okay,

1610
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:25,560
there's three, So exactly.

1611
01:43:25,399 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 18: I can see I see your point that you know

1612
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:30,439
that only three are mentioned I get that, But for example,

1613
01:43:30,479 --> 01:43:33,960
why does the spirit of God has to be interpreted

1614
01:43:34,079 --> 01:43:35,720
as a separate person instead of.

1615
01:43:35,800 --> 01:43:39,359
Speaker 6: Just because he's spoken of as he. He's spoken of

1616
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:40,760
as a he who does things.

1617
01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:45,439
Speaker 18: So why wouldn't the spirit of God, for example, just

1618
01:43:45,560 --> 01:43:47,880
be like God the Father? You know, just one?

1619
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:49,680
Speaker 6: Why do you have to make it because of what

1620
01:43:49,880 --> 01:43:51,560
I just did? You not hear what I just said?

1621
01:43:53,399 --> 01:43:54,479
Speaker 18: Your boys could offer.

1622
01:43:55,880 --> 01:43:59,119
Speaker 6: It's he has spoken of as a he, a person

1623
01:43:59,239 --> 01:44:02,000
a subject to do or an actor who does things?

1624
01:44:02,359 --> 01:44:03,279
Who is not the Father?

1625
01:44:06,119 --> 01:44:06,359
Speaker 7: Can he?

1626
01:44:06,439 --> 01:44:08,439
Speaker 18: Can he give an example in the Bible or in

1627
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:09,640
the Old Testament.

1628
01:44:12,239 --> 01:44:34,279
Speaker 6: This, let's see, I'm pulling up the text. So just

1629
01:44:34,359 --> 01:44:40,560
one second. So Moses went out and told the people

1630
01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:42,479
the words of the Lord. And he gathered seventy men,

1631
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:44,840
men of the elders and of the people, and placed

1632
01:44:44,880 --> 01:44:47,560
them around the tabernacle. And the Lord came down in

1633
01:44:47,720 --> 01:44:50,680
the cloud and spoke to him and took of the

1634
01:44:50,800 --> 01:44:53,560
spirit that was upon him and placed that same spirit

1635
01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:55,720
upon the elders. And then if you read the rest

1636
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:57,159
of the text, it goes on to talk about it

1637
01:44:57,279 --> 01:44:59,840
being the spirit of the Lord. The Lord would put

1638
01:45:00,079 --> 01:45:02,760
his spirit on them. The reason it can't be the Father.

1639
01:45:03,000 --> 01:45:05,680
Is that the Father is not in time and space

1640
01:45:06,199 --> 01:45:09,319
in the sense of being incarnate or manifesting. No one

1641
01:45:09,399 --> 01:45:11,600
has seen the Father at any time according to Jesus

1642
01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:15,119
in John five. There's no image, there's no manifestation of

1643
01:45:15,199 --> 01:45:18,079
the of the Father in this way. And so the

1644
01:45:18,399 --> 01:45:22,319
Lord that came down is putting this spirit upon them.

1645
01:45:22,680 --> 01:45:24,920
So it has to be a third It cannot be

1646
01:45:25,079 --> 01:45:28,399
someone else. It's not the Father in this passage. Now

1647
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:35,720
there's about hold on to say one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,

1648
01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:38,359
sixty seven, eighteen, nine, twenty. I've got and this is

1649
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:40,600
not all of them, but I've got twenty two passages

1650
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:44,920
of the Holy Spirit's actions and work in the Old Testament.

1651
01:45:44,960 --> 01:45:46,239
So we can go through as many of these as

1652
01:45:46,319 --> 01:45:48,159
you want. I can keep going. We go to Psalm

1653
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:53,359
one O three, I think, and what we notice from

1654
01:45:53,479 --> 01:45:55,760
all of these passages, we can't just we don't just

1655
01:45:55,800 --> 01:45:58,359
take one passage and say, well, that could be the Father.

1656
01:45:59,079 --> 01:46:01,760
I mean, it's all he's spoken of as this differentiation,

1657
01:46:01,920 --> 01:46:06,800
and he's spoken of as having a personal relationship, and

1658
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:10,520
that he does certain unique things do you want do

1659
01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:11,920
you want to keep going through the passages?

1660
01:46:12,840 --> 01:46:12,880
Speaker 7: No?

1661
01:46:13,199 --> 01:46:15,479
Speaker 18: I get that point. S For the only reason I

1662
01:46:15,680 --> 01:46:18,640
was making that argument is because, for example, I wouldn't

1663
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:22,239
say that the spirit of Jay is something that's separate

1664
01:46:22,359 --> 01:46:24,439
from from from you. It's like a second person.

1665
01:46:25,960 --> 01:46:29,039
Speaker 6: That's a false analogy because I'm a single person, and

1666
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,159
my soul or spirit would be aspects of my person

1667
01:46:33,319 --> 01:46:35,560
that would be parts of me. The Holy Spirit is

1668
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:37,840
not a part. God doesn't have parts. He's not composed

1669
01:46:37,920 --> 01:46:41,439
or put together. He always was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

1670
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:44,199
So it's an eternal triad. So that's that's why it's

1671
01:46:44,199 --> 01:46:45,600
a false analogy to a creature.

1672
01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:49,920
Speaker 18: So is it possible for God to be that? To

1673
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:54,359
be a minitarian god or be a quaternity? Is that

1674
01:46:54,439 --> 01:46:55,960
possible or is it always?

1675
01:46:56,439 --> 01:46:58,319
Speaker 6: Well, you just admitted a minute ago that it's three

1676
01:46:58,399 --> 01:46:59,680
in the Old Testament, So how would it be a

1677
01:46:59,760 --> 01:47:01,359
quatternity if you admitted those three?

1678
01:47:02,199 --> 01:47:04,319
Speaker 18: Like I'm just like, I'm asking, like, why does God

1679
01:47:04,439 --> 01:47:06,159
have to be a triune god?

1680
01:47:06,399 --> 01:47:08,560
Speaker 6: Because he's revealed himself to be that way. That's wine

1681
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:10,359
It's that's what his revelation is.

1682
01:47:11,520 --> 01:47:13,720
Speaker 18: Okay, Okay, I'll get your point. So what about the

1683
01:47:13,760 --> 01:47:17,079
Old Testament? For example, when the Muslims say, you know,

1684
01:47:17,119 --> 01:47:20,239
the Bible is corrupted, right, And then even when I've

1685
01:47:20,359 --> 01:47:23,880
taken some Bible courses at a university and even the

1686
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:28,000
professors are talking about how the Old Testament and even

1687
01:47:28,039 --> 01:47:31,119
the Torah it's put together by Jewish rabbis and they

1688
01:47:31,159 --> 01:47:33,640
have edited some stuff out, or you don't.

1689
01:47:33,640 --> 01:47:36,000
Speaker 6: Well, those are that's all assertions. So by the way,

1690
01:47:36,079 --> 01:47:40,159
Psalm one four in the Mesoretic text, you sent forth

1691
01:47:40,239 --> 01:47:42,640
your Holy Spirit and they are created. You renew the

1692
01:47:42,680 --> 01:47:44,479
face of the earth. So here the Holy Spirit is

1693
01:47:44,520 --> 01:47:50,079
being called a creator. So if the Father and the

1694
01:47:50,199 --> 01:47:52,479
Son send forth the Spirit and the spirit's creating, then

1695
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:55,880
the spirit is divine. Now that there's I mean, we

1696
01:47:55,960 --> 01:47:59,359
can keep going. There's like plenty more examples. There's like

1697
01:47:59,439 --> 01:47:59,880
twenty more.

1698
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:03,279
Speaker 18: Yeah, I know, I get that. I was talking about

1699
01:48:03,359 --> 01:48:05,079
the Old Testament, for example.

1700
01:48:04,800 --> 01:48:06,680
Speaker 6: And I'm reading the Psalms. You don't think the Psalms

1701
01:48:06,680 --> 01:48:07,399
are the Old Testament?

1702
01:48:08,279 --> 01:48:08,439
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1703
01:48:08,479 --> 01:48:11,039
Speaker 18: Yeah, it's the Old Testament. Both Torah for example. Do

1704
01:48:11,079 --> 01:48:14,000
you think it's a bit edited by Jews, Jewish scribes

1705
01:48:14,079 --> 01:48:19,119
and the priests. No, it's so who's the author of.

1706
01:48:19,119 --> 01:48:25,560
Speaker 7: Torah Moses and Joshua, so they both are the author.

1707
01:48:25,680 --> 01:48:28,239
Speaker 18: There's so that you don't think that there's like there's

1708
01:48:28,319 --> 01:48:30,680
no part of the Old Testament that's edited out. It's

1709
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:32,960
just written perfectly on what they.

1710
01:48:33,239 --> 01:48:35,960
Speaker 6: So what's the basis to believe that those are just assertions?

1711
01:48:37,439 --> 01:48:39,640
Speaker 18: Well, I'm just going off of by what the let's

1712
01:48:39,640 --> 01:48:39,880
say this.

1713
01:48:40,279 --> 01:48:42,439
Speaker 7: My Bible scholars is saying, what the okay?

1714
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:45,359
Speaker 6: Again, those are assertions? So do you want me to

1715
01:48:45,439 --> 01:48:48,319
cite you conservative scholars that don't agree? What is that?

1716
01:48:48,399 --> 01:48:48,720
What does that?

1717
01:48:49,760 --> 01:48:49,960
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1718
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:52,199
Speaker 18: Can you name some books too on the Old Testament

1719
01:48:52,279 --> 01:48:56,640
reliability where you have Moses as the author, and you know, uh,

1720
01:48:57,359 --> 01:48:59,920
each book having its own author. And for example, even

1721
01:49:00,319 --> 01:49:02,640
I have an Orthodox Study Bible, right some of the

1722
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:04,960
authors are unknown. You don't even know who kind of

1723
01:49:05,039 --> 01:49:07,880
like put it together. I think some of the introductions

1724
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:09,520
for the Orthodox Study I don't have it with you

1725
01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:11,239
right now because I'm on in the car, but it

1726
01:49:11,279 --> 01:49:13,159
says that it was kind of like compiled together by

1727
01:49:13,239 --> 01:49:16,720
Jewish scribes or priests and the authors.

1728
01:49:16,439 --> 01:49:17,119
Speaker 7: Kind of unknown.

1729
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:19,399
Speaker 18: I think you can some of the books are also

1730
01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:24,680
the Wisdom books that says that the authors are most like,

1731
01:49:24,800 --> 01:49:26,920
where's the reliability of any of this?

1732
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:30,239
Speaker 6: Well, I mean it's reliable because it's the tradition of

1733
01:49:30,279 --> 01:49:32,319
the Church. You can't separate the tradition of the Church

1734
01:49:32,399 --> 01:49:34,720
from the authorship of the text. And what we I mean,

1735
01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:37,680
the Matthew doesn't tell you that it's Matthew the disciple

1736
01:49:37,720 --> 01:49:39,880
of Jesus. It's the tradition of the church that says that.

1737
01:49:40,479 --> 01:49:43,239
So bound up with the text is the pre supposition

1738
01:49:43,319 --> 01:49:45,039
of the church. So no, you're not going to like

1739
01:49:45,600 --> 01:49:49,079
just go to texts and like figure out the religion

1740
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:54,159
per se just from tax alone. You can't. You can't

1741
01:49:54,159 --> 01:49:57,560
divorce the text from the community which has passed these

1742
01:49:57,640 --> 01:49:57,960
texts on.

1743
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:01,079
Speaker 18: Yeah, but the community is thing that they don't even know.

1744
01:50:01,159 --> 01:50:03,239
Speaker 6: The author, And no, it's not that's not the no

1745
01:50:03,439 --> 01:50:06,800
you're citing. First of all, knowing the author is not

1746
01:50:07,039 --> 01:50:09,359
necessary for us to say whether it's part of our

1747
01:50:09,399 --> 01:50:13,279
tradition or not. I mean, the text cite extra canonical

1748
01:50:13,319 --> 01:50:14,680
books with true tradition.

1749
01:50:14,520 --> 01:50:19,079
Speaker 18: Like the Book of Enoch, so the yah, yeah, it

1750
01:50:19,159 --> 01:50:22,039
doesn't cite those books as scripture. But for example, if

1751
01:50:22,079 --> 01:50:24,720
you have a book that's considered divine from God right

1752
01:50:24,760 --> 01:50:27,720
at least you should know who's bringing that message about

1753
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:30,720
who's the author, who's writing it down, Like, for example, was.

1754
01:50:30,720 --> 01:50:31,359
Speaker 7: It a prophet?

1755
01:50:31,399 --> 01:50:31,960
Speaker 18: Who it was?

1756
01:50:32,840 --> 01:50:32,880
Speaker 7: No?

1757
01:50:33,039 --> 01:50:33,479
Speaker 18: It doesn't.

1758
01:50:33,840 --> 01:50:37,000
Speaker 6: No, So you're talking about wisdom text like cyric or

1759
01:50:37,039 --> 01:50:40,319
something like that. They don't have to be necessarily from

1760
01:50:40,600 --> 01:50:45,000
any specific person to be commonly used wisdom text amongst

1761
01:50:45,039 --> 01:50:46,880
the Jews, like the pi k a vote, which is

1762
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:50,279
a it's just like proverbs, but it's a later collection

1763
01:50:50,439 --> 01:50:53,119
of proverbs. We don't have to know necessarily who wrote

1764
01:50:53,159 --> 01:50:55,399
every proverb to know whether it's true or whether it's

1765
01:50:56,079 --> 01:50:57,960
part of tradition or not. Why would we have to

1766
01:50:58,039 --> 01:50:58,239
know that?

1767
01:50:59,199 --> 01:51:01,319
Speaker 18: So, I mean, how with that book to considered that's

1768
01:51:01,359 --> 01:51:04,520
it inspired without you citing your like saying that, oh yeah,

1769
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:07,640
that the church, you know, your tradition Orthodox Church accepted that.

1770
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:10,439
Speaker 6: Well, but I don't know. I don't say you can

1771
01:51:10,520 --> 01:51:13,399
divorce inspiration from the from the Church. You can't. That's

1772
01:51:13,479 --> 01:51:16,039
my point. So you're approaching this like a Protestant or

1773
01:51:16,079 --> 01:51:18,479
like a like a Muslim. That's not how we view

1774
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:21,199
the text and divine revelation. We're not book worshipers.

1775
01:51:22,479 --> 01:51:24,439
Speaker 18: Okay, I get that, But what's let's say what is

1776
01:51:24,479 --> 01:51:27,560
the justification in the Orthodox Church for accepting a book

1777
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:28,720
without knowing its author.

1778
01:51:30,079 --> 01:51:33,680
Speaker 6: There's no reason why something like the Proverbs you mentioned

1779
01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:37,039
an example of wisdom texts that we have to know

1780
01:51:37,159 --> 01:51:39,159
the author of the Proverbs to know that those are

1781
01:51:39,279 --> 01:51:43,600
true proverbs or that they have a historical attestation amongst

1782
01:51:43,640 --> 01:51:44,399
Jewish communities.

1783
01:51:46,319 --> 01:51:48,880
Speaker 18: No, what I'm trying to get at is like, what

1784
01:51:49,079 --> 01:51:51,319
is the mechanism for example, Like you know you have

1785
01:51:51,399 --> 01:51:53,399
a certain book, right, let's look at.

1786
01:51:53,960 --> 01:51:57,399
Speaker 6: The mechanism is tradition. There's no academic mechanism.

1787
01:51:57,520 --> 01:52:00,800
Speaker 7: That's my point, Like, what's the crisis because.

1788
01:52:00,760 --> 01:52:02,720
Speaker 6: The tradition of the church is the criteria. That's what

1789
01:52:02,720 --> 01:52:03,319
I'm trying to tell you.

1790
01:52:06,000 --> 01:52:07,760
Speaker 18: I don't know, because the thing is that in the

1791
01:52:07,880 --> 01:52:10,359
in the New Testament, right, they have certain criterias that.

1792
01:52:10,399 --> 01:52:11,960
Speaker 6: Are laid out like again noa, NOA.

1793
01:52:11,840 --> 01:52:16,159
Speaker 7: Doesn't Yeah, I mean that's what the canon or like

1794
01:52:16,279 --> 01:52:17,640
it has to know.

1795
01:52:17,880 --> 01:52:19,800
Speaker 6: The New Testament doesn't give you a canon. It's only

1796
01:52:19,840 --> 01:52:22,000
from the tradition of the Church. You're just asserting all

1797
01:52:22,039 --> 01:52:23,439
the church, even from.

1798
01:52:23,359 --> 01:52:25,640
Speaker 18: The tradition of the church, right, like the Church Fathers

1799
01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:27,760
for example. That's what I learned in my class that

1800
01:52:28,119 --> 01:52:29,920
there was at least a little bit of a criteria

1801
01:52:30,000 --> 01:52:31,840
for a book to be accepted as scripture.

1802
01:52:31,880 --> 01:52:33,840
Speaker 6: For example, it happen, and do you know it, Okay,

1803
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:35,439
do you know any of those criteria?

1804
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:38,640
Speaker 18: I know, I know, I don't know like every single

1805
01:52:38,720 --> 01:52:40,000
one of them. But it had to go back to

1806
01:52:40,039 --> 01:52:43,479
the apostles or their associates, and then for example, it

1807
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:46,079
had to like match up to what you know, they

1808
01:52:46,159 --> 01:52:47,000
already believed.

1809
01:52:47,239 --> 01:52:49,319
Speaker 6: So there was a little all along. So so so

1810
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:52,239
that's not actually so, did the church fathers in general

1811
01:52:52,560 --> 01:52:53,600
accept the Deutero canon?

1812
01:52:55,800 --> 01:52:57,760
Speaker 18: Did they accept that? I think there's a there's a

1813
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:01,279
difference in there in every one of their canons. I

1814
01:53:01,359 --> 01:53:04,199
think one church father accepts some of the other one.

1815
01:53:04,359 --> 01:53:10,399
Speaker 6: In general, did they accept the Duro canon? The answer

1816
01:53:10,479 --> 01:53:13,880
is yes, they did so. And the Deuero canon is

1817
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:17,199
not from the Apostles. Now, Paul utilizes and cites it

1818
01:53:17,279 --> 01:53:19,000
quite a bit. The New Testament cites it quite a bit.

1819
01:53:19,279 --> 01:53:21,680
But even citation of the New Testament doesn't necessarily mean

1820
01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:24,479
that it's canonical, because the Book of nich is not canonical.

1821
01:53:24,680 --> 01:53:27,479
So again, all all of the things that you're talking

1822
01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:29,720
about are really just a lot of like Protestant or

1823
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:33,840
Muslim sort of arguments that are spat out and they're

1824
01:53:33,880 --> 01:53:36,600
based on presuppositions that are Muslim or Protestant. That the

1825
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:38,800
only way that we know what the text is is

1826
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:40,760
if we do or whether it's true is if we

1827
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:44,680
do a bunch of textual scholarship and historical research to

1828
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:47,720
find out. And that's not the way that we go

1829
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:50,640
about it. It's it's the church is the presupposition. The

1830
01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:52,399
Church is the pillar and ground of true Paul says,

1831
01:53:52,479 --> 01:53:53,079
not the texts.

1832
01:53:54,479 --> 01:53:58,560
Speaker 18: So you do you take that words, for example, what

1833
01:53:58,640 --> 01:54:01,359
Paul is saying to interpret that the church's infallible. That

1834
01:54:01,479 --> 01:54:03,039
can't be wrong or what not.

1835
01:54:03,239 --> 01:54:05,720
Speaker 6: It cannot be wrong in dogmatic universal teaching.

1836
01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:12,239
Speaker 18: So it's infallible and it's dogma right, yes, So how

1837
01:54:12,279 --> 01:54:14,359
do you even how do you come to that conclusion

1838
01:54:14,439 --> 01:54:18,039
without let's say, committing to the fellows to circular reasoning

1839
01:54:18,359 --> 01:54:20,560
or you know, you know, because it's like the Bible

1840
01:54:20,640 --> 01:54:21,199
is infallible.

1841
01:54:21,279 --> 01:54:22,840
Speaker 7: You go to the Bible, and then you have.

1842
01:54:22,920 --> 01:54:24,880
Speaker 18: To go to the Church, which is also infallible.

1843
01:54:25,119 --> 01:54:28,199
Speaker 6: And you know, because all world views are ultimately recursive

1844
01:54:28,439 --> 01:54:31,279
and self referencing and so it's inescapable at the most

1845
01:54:31,319 --> 01:54:36,239
fundamental level. There's no way around that. So there's that's

1846
01:54:36,279 --> 01:54:37,439
why I argue tagged.

1847
01:54:38,479 --> 01:54:43,000
Speaker 18: Okay, I see. So do you think Jesus in your review,

1848
01:54:43,039 --> 01:54:46,079
do you think he believes in the Judo canon books

1849
01:54:46,239 --> 01:54:46,840
of the Bible.

1850
01:54:47,479 --> 01:54:49,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, he cites them multiple times.

1851
01:54:49,720 --> 01:54:52,199
Speaker 18: He cites can you give me one example.

1852
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:52,680
Speaker 7: Where he sides.

1853
01:54:54,199 --> 01:54:56,800
Speaker 6: He's well, he's prophesied in the Book of Wisdom, for example,

1854
01:54:56,880 --> 01:54:59,439
he's the righteous man. That's why the church fathers included

1855
01:54:59,479 --> 01:55:02,079
Wisdom in the canon is there's a significant prophecy of

1856
01:55:02,159 --> 01:55:05,079
the person of Christ there. But many of the parables

1857
01:55:05,520 --> 01:55:09,319
Jesus is alluding to or citing the parable of the

1858
01:55:10,439 --> 01:55:17,159
guy who hastily wants to build his barns and retire.

1859
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:21,760
Jesus says that that will going from memory here because

1860
01:55:21,760 --> 01:55:23,119
I haven't looked at this in many years, but that

1861
01:55:23,359 --> 01:55:26,199
is an allusion to something of this in the dudocononical texts.

1862
01:55:28,039 --> 01:55:32,119
There's many you can search online just New Testament references

1863
01:55:32,159 --> 01:55:34,000
to the Duro Canon. There's like sixty of them.

1864
01:55:35,079 --> 01:55:38,079
Speaker 18: Okay, I got you. And why doesn't Jesus, for example,

1865
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:42,039
I know he makes claims of divinity for example, why

1866
01:55:42,119 --> 01:55:46,199
doesn't he explicitly tell his audience that he is God?

1867
01:55:46,279 --> 01:55:48,840
For example? When he has the opportunity to do so, he.

1868
01:55:48,880 --> 01:55:51,159
Speaker 6: Does it many times. So this is just your ignorance

1869
01:55:51,199 --> 01:55:53,079
of the Old Testament and of the Gospels. He does

1870
01:55:53,119 --> 01:55:56,159
this countless times. I mean every chapter, every chapter of

1871
01:55:56,199 --> 01:55:58,960
the Gospel of John includes references to the deity of

1872
01:55:59,000 --> 01:55:59,920
Christ and or the Trinity.

1873
01:56:01,079 --> 01:56:03,279
Speaker 18: So I mean, why doesn't I know he makes his

1874
01:56:03,439 --> 01:56:05,720
claims of you know, Divinity for himself, but why not

1875
01:56:05,920 --> 01:56:08,119
just mentioned the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit altogether?

1876
01:56:08,239 --> 01:56:09,880
Speaker 6: Have you not read the Gospel of John? He does

1877
01:56:09,960 --> 01:56:12,840
this all the time, especially John fifteen. John fifteen to

1878
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:14,880
seventeen he does this constantly. What are you talking about?

1879
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:18,960
Speaker 7: Hello?

1880
01:56:19,479 --> 01:56:24,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, John fifteen to seventeen he does this constantly. So no,

1881
01:56:24,359 --> 01:56:29,039
because okay, I mean no, yes, have you read John

1882
01:56:29,079 --> 01:56:30,000
fifteen to seventeen.

1883
01:56:31,399 --> 01:56:33,399
Speaker 18: I've read that, but I don't know which is exactly Like.

1884
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:36,840
Speaker 6: Those three chapters are constantly him talking about the relationship

1885
01:56:36,920 --> 01:56:40,439
of the Father and the Son to the Spirit. It's

1886
01:56:40,479 --> 01:56:42,359
the high priestly prayer. You don't you don't know this,

1887
01:56:42,439 --> 01:56:43,479
You've not heard of this. It's like one of the

1888
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:44,720
most famous things in all the mind.

1889
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:47,720
Speaker 18: I've heard, I've heard of it, I've read this in

1890
01:56:47,800 --> 01:56:48,960
the Orthodox Study Bible.

1891
01:56:49,359 --> 01:56:51,560
Speaker 6: So but you just said, why doesn't Jesus openly talk

1892
01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:56,039
about stop talking? You just said, why doesn't Jesus stop talking?

1893
01:56:57,039 --> 01:57:03,079
Stop talking? Shut up up? Didn't even mention that you

1894
01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:07,159
are you going to shut up or not? Why are

1895
01:57:07,199 --> 01:57:10,399
you yapping over me? At every point you get refuted

1896
01:57:10,439 --> 01:57:15,039
and you just keep yapping. Okay, you're blocked. Are you

1897
01:57:15,159 --> 01:57:23,880
listening to me? Are you listening? All right? Maybe he

1898
01:57:23,960 --> 01:57:29,680
can't hear. But like everything I respond with, he blows

1899
01:57:29,760 --> 01:57:32,000
past to the next thing. It's like, did you not

1900
01:57:32,079 --> 01:57:34,279
want to go through the twenty plus text that I

1901
01:57:34,319 --> 01:57:36,479
have about the relationship the Holy Spirit of the Old Testament?

1902
01:57:37,840 --> 01:57:41,159
They angered him at the waters of Strife so that

1903
01:57:41,319 --> 01:57:43,199
it went ill with Moses on account of them, and

1904
01:57:43,199 --> 01:57:47,800
they rebelled against his Holy Spirit. So I start going

1905
01:57:47,840 --> 01:57:49,399
into this and he blows past, wants to go to

1906
01:57:49,439 --> 01:57:51,520
the next thing. Well, what in Jesus talk about the Trinity?

1907
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:54,359
He did John seven fifteen to seventeen, and like three,

1908
01:57:54,600 --> 01:57:58,279
you can't go read three chapters? Oh well I don't

1909
01:57:58,279 --> 01:58:01,640
have time for that, And okay, well whatever like, literally,

1910
01:58:01,680 --> 01:58:04,560
the entire chapter is the relationship of John stepping between

1911
01:58:04,600 --> 01:58:06,720
him and the Holy Spirit and the Father. Like the

1912
01:58:06,800 --> 01:58:09,119
whole chapters are about that. What are you talking about?

1913
01:58:22,800 --> 01:58:27,760
John sixteen, The entire section about the sending of the

1914
01:58:27,800 --> 01:58:34,000
Holy Spirit from the Father through the Son. It's called

1915
01:58:34,000 --> 01:58:36,920
the High Priestly Prayer. It's all about the Trinity. I

1916
01:58:37,039 --> 01:58:39,239
read all that. Well, then, what do you mean he

1917
01:58:39,319 --> 01:58:41,840
never talks about the trinity and the relationship of the person.

1918
01:58:41,840 --> 01:58:45,359
It's like, Josh.

1919
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:53,520
Speaker 17: Out of sheer necessity.

1920
01:58:53,960 --> 01:58:58,920
Speaker 7: I thought I'd riff on the Fhronsier mom debate there.

1921
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:01,039
Speaker 6: Well, bodied, so.

1922
01:59:03,199 --> 01:59:04,039
Speaker 7: You definitely did.

1923
01:59:04,239 --> 01:59:07,239
Speaker 27: I also think you should maybe press the cross up

1924
01:59:07,279 --> 01:59:08,039
against your foot.

1925
01:59:08,159 --> 01:59:11,439
Speaker 7: It might help to reduce the scent or you know,

1926
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:16,880
the sound. A couple of questions.

1927
01:59:16,960 --> 01:59:20,199
Speaker 18: One is, have you ever read.

1928
01:59:21,399 --> 01:59:22,520
Speaker 7: The Fire That Consumes?

1929
01:59:23,079 --> 01:59:29,359
Speaker 26: No, it's it's in my former Protestant days in my explorations.

1930
01:59:29,439 --> 01:59:32,520
Speaker 18: It was like the guy's name is Edward Fudge, and

1931
01:59:32,640 --> 01:59:33,840
he's like the point guy.

1932
01:59:35,560 --> 01:59:42,079
Speaker 26: Yes, yes, yes, no no joking and uh he uh,

1933
01:59:42,399 --> 01:59:46,840
he's like the point guy for conditionalism or annihilationism. It's

1934
01:59:46,880 --> 01:59:48,920
like it's like a five hundred page book and it's

1935
01:59:48,960 --> 01:59:52,319
pretty interesting, even though it's coming from again more of

1936
01:59:52,359 --> 01:59:55,520
a Protestant bent, But some of how he goes about

1937
01:59:55,880 --> 01:59:58,159
reading the Ole Testament, like a lot of the.

1938
01:59:58,199 --> 02:00:01,279
Speaker 7: Passages that talk about Hell or destr all that stuff.

1939
02:00:01,359 --> 02:00:04,000
Speaker 26: So I just was wondering if you, in your previous

1940
02:00:04,079 --> 02:00:06,079
Protestant days came across that.

1941
02:00:06,640 --> 02:00:09,560
Speaker 6: Yes, and the solution is you need to read the

1942
02:00:09,600 --> 02:00:20,000
book On the Brink by Damon Duck. Okay, awesome, I

1943
02:00:20,239 --> 02:00:22,079
can only find a good picture of Damon Duck. I

1944
02:00:22,119 --> 02:00:25,039
remember finding this book when I was a Protestant. Oh,

1945
02:00:25,039 --> 02:00:28,199
here's a good picture of Damon Duck. Here's Damon Duck,

1946
02:00:29,800 --> 02:00:32,560
and he will teach you the solution to all Biblical

1947
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:38,359
prophecies with On the Brink by Damon Duck. No, I apologize,

1948
02:00:38,359 --> 02:00:40,319
I've never heard of what you're talking about, and I

1949
02:00:40,680 --> 02:00:43,520
don't know what that is the point man for annihilationism.

1950
02:00:44,520 --> 02:00:49,319
I mean, there's so many passages that pretty clearly teach

1951
02:00:49,399 --> 02:00:51,720
that the soul continues on after death, like Jesus talking

1952
02:00:51,760 --> 02:00:54,000
about the rich man and the parable the rich man

1953
02:00:54,079 --> 02:00:58,199
who dies and goes to Hades and he's there and

1954
02:00:58,239 --> 02:01:01,079
he's talking about Abraham's Bosom. I mean, is I just

1955
02:01:01,359 --> 02:01:06,199
where do people come up with these ideas. It's not

1956
02:01:07,680 --> 02:01:09,880
FAQ day, so we're looking for people to disagree. We've

1957
02:01:09,920 --> 02:01:11,359
got a lot of people here we get. We hit

1958
02:01:11,520 --> 02:01:17,880
nineteen thousand, nineteen hundred, a Q minist we hit nineteen hundred,

1959
02:01:19,319 --> 02:01:23,239
which was a first. So maybe people dumped their chat

1960
02:01:23,319 --> 02:01:23,840
into my chat.

1961
02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:24,319
Speaker 7: I don't know, but.

1962
02:01:26,239 --> 02:01:29,560
Speaker 6: Darkwing Duck is the best End Times theologian out there.

1963
02:01:29,680 --> 02:01:35,079
For sure. He's better than John Hagy justin ten dollars

1964
02:01:36,039 --> 02:01:38,960
an argument for the honorific language. Saint Cyril is closer

1965
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:43,119
in approximation to ephesis than Pope Saint Celotine. Celestine. Cyril

1966
02:01:43,159 --> 02:01:46,880
presides over the council primarily and helps Cyril's Celestine with

1967
02:01:47,000 --> 02:01:50,640
his within his jurisdiction as an apostolic. See interesting, Yeah,

1968
02:01:50,840 --> 02:01:53,119
there's a lot of examples of this that really conflict

1969
02:01:53,199 --> 02:02:00,439
with the Vatican One presubpositions. In fact, again, Sashinsky in

1970
02:02:00,600 --> 02:02:09,000
the chapter of the second to seventh century, that's whole

1971
02:02:09,079 --> 02:02:11,159
chapter deals with all those, and we did a whole

1972
02:02:12,039 --> 02:02:13,560
we did a whole run through of those the other day.

1973
02:02:14,720 --> 02:02:26,199
Let's see that got dropped off a qmanist. Are you there, good.

1974
02:02:26,079 --> 02:02:26,640
Speaker 7: Evening, Joe.

1975
02:02:28,439 --> 02:02:32,039
Speaker 26: So actually the person earlier who was asking about the

1976
02:02:32,199 --> 02:02:35,399
relationships when in Genesis won twenty six kind of answer

1977
02:02:35,479 --> 02:02:37,399
that when it says our image.

1978
02:02:37,079 --> 02:02:42,039
Speaker 6: Our likeness, it would but only on the trinitarian presupposition,

1979
02:02:42,199 --> 02:02:44,520
because people always say, oh, that's just the royal we

1980
02:02:44,760 --> 02:02:46,520
it's just God and the angels. So they already have

1981
02:02:46,680 --> 02:02:48,520
like a patent response. That's why I think it's better

1982
02:02:48,600 --> 02:02:52,159
to go to other explicit attacks. I just didn't even

1983
02:02:52,159 --> 02:02:54,119
get to them. There's many more. He just blew past it.

1984
02:02:56,640 --> 02:03:01,039
I mean there's judges. There's Joel three, Ezekiel one, Daniel

1985
02:03:01,039 --> 02:03:03,880
four nine, Exodus fifteen eight to ten, Exodus forty twenty

1986
02:03:03,920 --> 02:03:06,159
eight to thirty. Palm won thirty eight seven, so I

1987
02:03:06,279 --> 02:03:08,159
won forty two to ten, Joe thirty three four, Joe

1988
02:03:08,239 --> 02:03:12,239
thirty eight one, and two judges thirteen twenty five, fourteen

1989
02:03:12,319 --> 02:03:20,439
five nineteen. Zech Arie won six. Micah, I can't read

1990
02:03:20,479 --> 02:03:22,760
what my note is there Genesis forty one thirty eight.

1991
02:03:22,880 --> 02:03:25,119
I mean, there's there's tons of passages about the the

1992
02:03:25,159 --> 02:03:26,359
Holy Spirit and the Old Testpent go.

1993
02:03:26,359 --> 02:03:30,359
Speaker 26: Ahead, right, and then also this is not necessarily an

1994
02:03:30,439 --> 02:03:32,600
argument against you, but I did see Hebrew roots in

1995
02:03:32,640 --> 02:03:34,800
the title, and I kind of wanted to ask if

1996
02:03:35,520 --> 02:03:41,039
there's numbers chapter or verse twenty seven, eighteen through twenty three,

1997
02:03:41,119 --> 02:03:44,880
wouldn't that be a direct refutation of Hebrew roots considering

1998
02:03:45,520 --> 02:03:47,319
Moses is laying on hands and.

1999
02:03:47,359 --> 02:03:50,039
Speaker 6: Transferring hold on numbers? What number one numbers?

2000
02:03:50,079 --> 02:03:52,319
Speaker 17: What numbers twenty seven?

2001
02:03:52,560 --> 02:03:58,880
Speaker 26: Verse eighteen through twenty three, because Moses is it's a congregation,

2002
02:03:59,039 --> 02:04:03,600
it's inaugurated and giving power, it's giving some sort of authority.

2003
02:04:03,800 --> 02:04:05,359
And I don't think they believe in that at all.

2004
02:04:05,520 --> 02:04:07,159
So I thought that was their whole thing.

2005
02:04:07,359 --> 02:04:09,000
Speaker 6: By the way, here's the Holy Spirit. Again, I didn't

2006
02:04:09,000 --> 02:04:11,239
have this one written down, so let me write that down.

2007
02:04:14,720 --> 02:04:22,640
Numbers twenty seven and it's eight.

2008
02:04:24,399 --> 02:04:25,520
Speaker 17: Eighteen through twenty three.

2009
02:04:25,640 --> 02:04:27,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm just looking for the Holy Spirit reference.

2010
02:04:27,439 --> 02:04:33,039
Speaker 7: It's verse eighteen, all right, Yeah, the spirit is there.

2011
02:04:33,359 --> 02:04:36,079
Speaker 6: Take Joshua, the son of non in whom is the Spirit,

2012
02:04:36,119 --> 02:04:38,560
and lay your hands on him. Right, So yeah, that

2013
02:04:38,680 --> 02:04:42,479
has to be that's the Spirit of God obviously. And

2014
02:04:42,600 --> 02:04:47,279
so you're saying, well, Hebrew Richs don't believe in any

2015
02:04:47,399 --> 02:04:48,319
kind of succession.

2016
02:04:49,520 --> 02:04:51,159
Speaker 18: Yeah, like you know, the New Testament with.

2017
02:04:53,000 --> 02:04:55,840
Speaker 26: Breathing on the Holy Spirit and then retaining remitting sins.

2018
02:04:56,000 --> 02:04:57,319
Speaker 7: I don't think they believe in that for.

2019
02:04:57,399 --> 02:04:59,560
Speaker 26: Starters, But if they're going to be following the Old

2020
02:04:59,640 --> 02:05:02,199
test Man, that same thing is in the Old Testament

2021
02:05:02,359 --> 02:05:04,680
in that scripture.

2022
02:05:04,279 --> 02:05:08,720
Speaker 6: Right there with Well, what if they tend to default

2023
02:05:08,760 --> 02:05:11,039
to like rabbinic stuff, So maybe they would say, well,

2024
02:05:11,079 --> 02:05:14,399
that was what was proper to Israel at that time,

2025
02:05:14,880 --> 02:05:16,960
but this is before the rise of you know, the

2026
02:05:17,039 --> 02:05:19,399
rabbinical structure, so they would probably say something like now

2027
02:05:19,479 --> 02:05:24,239
it's the Israel is governed by the rabbin or something.

2028
02:05:24,960 --> 02:05:26,920
Speaker 26: It is interesting because they thought it was their whole

2029
02:05:26,960 --> 02:05:30,239
thing to not be like rabbinical Jews, but to try

2030
02:05:30,279 --> 02:05:32,079
and reconstruct something that was lost.

2031
02:05:32,319 --> 02:05:34,880
Speaker 6: Well that's okay, interesting. I mean I think they will

2032
02:05:34,920 --> 02:05:37,640
default to Rabbinic stuff when it suits them. Like in

2033
02:05:37,720 --> 02:05:42,000
the debate with Bryson, he would randomly start citing rabbis

2034
02:05:42,039 --> 02:05:44,479
and rabbinical stuff, but then he's not into that, but

2035
02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:46,079
he is when he needs it. So it's kind of

2036
02:05:46,119 --> 02:05:48,199
I think they're just arbitrary. They're there, but that's a

2037
02:05:48,239 --> 02:05:51,560
good point. So they're trying to reconstruct something ancient. Okay, well, yeah,

2038
02:05:51,560 --> 02:05:53,920
why wouldn't Why wouldn't this be the case if you're

2039
02:05:53,920 --> 02:05:55,520
reconstructing the ancient system.

2040
02:05:55,319 --> 02:05:58,720
Speaker 26: Right, Well, the church would have been you know, case

2041
02:05:58,760 --> 02:06:00,800
of hell would have prevailed, So that doesn't make sense.

2042
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:01,760
Speaker 6: Well, that's true, that's true.

2043
02:06:01,960 --> 02:06:03,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, all right, thank you so much.

2044
02:06:03,760 --> 02:06:06,039
Speaker 6: No, that's an interesting angle. I would like to see

2045
02:06:06,079 --> 02:06:07,960
how if we have any Hebrew roots in the audience,

2046
02:06:08,279 --> 02:06:12,279
if you want to come explain to us how it's

2047
02:06:12,279 --> 02:06:15,159
supposed to be governed, and where is your where is

2048
02:06:15,199 --> 02:06:17,920
your approximation to what's going on here in numbers? You're

2049
02:06:17,960 --> 02:06:34,359
welcome to hop on. Michael, Michael, your foot's farting. What's up?

2050
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:36,439
We can hear you, We can hear you.

2051
02:06:40,840 --> 02:06:42,560
Speaker 7: What's up out Sidy.

2052
02:06:45,119 --> 02:06:46,880
Speaker 27: I've been I've been wanting to ask you. I'm glad

2053
02:06:46,920 --> 02:06:49,880
I was kind of able to come on. So have

2054
02:06:50,039 --> 02:06:51,960
you heard of Frank Took? I tried to look into

2055
02:06:52,039 --> 02:06:55,119
him because I know you you a feuded William Lane craig.

2056
02:06:56,600 --> 02:06:58,199
But I'm pretty sure you've heard of Frank Tuk.

2057
02:06:58,920 --> 02:07:00,800
Speaker 6: I've heard this name. What is he? I don't I

2058
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:02,239
don't so I.

2059
02:07:02,319 --> 02:07:05,039
Speaker 27: Believe and that that's kind of the question, right, So

2060
02:07:06,000 --> 02:07:08,479
I believe he's a Protestant, but I don't believe he

2061
02:07:08,560 --> 02:07:11,359
believed that William Wayne Craig believes, or kids Roll or

2062
02:07:12,000 --> 02:07:15,760
any of the other people. My question is, I've reviewed

2063
02:07:15,800 --> 02:07:20,199
your videos on tag and everything, and I reviewed your

2064
02:07:20,399 --> 02:07:23,039
videos on why you're not an atheist, a Protestant, a

2065
02:07:23,199 --> 02:07:27,000
Roman Catholic, you know why you're an Orthodox. What do

2066
02:07:27,119 --> 02:07:31,640
you think of the creation creator argument for like an atheist.

2067
02:07:32,039 --> 02:07:34,479
I've been wanting to get your opinion on that. If

2068
02:07:34,520 --> 02:07:38,079
you don't know what that is, it's well, okay, So

2069
02:07:39,039 --> 02:07:43,439
what he says is, so we know that everything has

2070
02:07:43,520 --> 02:07:47,359
a creator, right, Like, uh, you know I have a creator.

2071
02:07:47,640 --> 02:07:50,560
You know a book, you know, something wrote this, somebody

2072
02:07:50,640 --> 02:07:54,479
built this, right, And so if we know that we

2073
02:07:54,600 --> 02:07:55,800
know everything has a creator?

2074
02:07:55,960 --> 02:07:57,439
Speaker 6: Oh well, I mean I could just if I was

2075
02:07:57,479 --> 02:07:59,640
a smart atheist, I would just from the outset say,

2076
02:08:00,239 --> 02:08:01,479
how do we know that? How do we know that

2077
02:08:01,880 --> 02:08:03,079
that universal claim.

2078
02:08:02,920 --> 02:08:03,359
Speaker 7: Is the case?

2079
02:08:04,399 --> 02:08:07,039
Speaker 27: Well, I would say, so, see, that's that's I'm kind

2080
02:08:07,079 --> 02:08:09,479
of glad that we debate. So I would say that

2081
02:08:09,680 --> 02:08:12,319
you can look around and see that everything has a creator.

2082
02:08:12,880 --> 02:08:16,439
Speaker 6: Again, that's well, that's breaking the question. So how as

2083
02:08:16,720 --> 02:08:20,199
a finite being looking around, do I know the universal

2084
02:08:20,319 --> 02:08:24,960
claim everything has a creator? That's that's the illogical leap

2085
02:08:25,079 --> 02:08:30,279
there to get from finite particular experiences to universal state

2086
02:08:30,319 --> 02:08:31,840
of affairs as a non sequitur.

2087
02:08:32,720 --> 02:08:36,560
Speaker 27: Yeah, no, I get you. I think. I think because

2088
02:08:36,600 --> 02:08:38,960
then he goes from well, that has a creator, and

2089
02:08:39,000 --> 02:08:43,239
then we know that that thing that had a creator

2090
02:08:43,359 --> 02:08:46,800
had to be intelligent, loving like because we know how

2091
02:08:46,840 --> 02:08:47,199
we are.

2092
02:08:47,439 --> 02:08:50,279
Speaker 6: Well again, all of these arguments that are just variations

2093
02:08:50,359 --> 02:08:53,720
on other classical apologetic arguments. They missed the point of

2094
02:08:54,159 --> 02:08:58,199
the their They don't even realize how much stuff they're assuming. Okay,

2095
02:08:58,239 --> 02:09:00,680
so how do we know, first of all, that that's

2096
02:09:00,760 --> 02:09:02,279
the case, And how do we know that all of

2097
02:09:02,399 --> 02:09:04,960
this specific attributes that you listed are part of this

2098
02:09:05,600 --> 02:09:09,399
so called creator? These are all just they're just arbitrary

2099
02:09:10,000 --> 02:09:14,199
like assumptions. There's nothing about if we're remember classical argumentation

2100
02:09:14,279 --> 02:09:18,760
and apologetics is assuming neutrality. Oh we're assuming neutrality, then

2101
02:09:18,920 --> 02:09:21,159
how are we supposed to Why am I supposed to

2102
02:09:21,199 --> 02:09:24,199
accept all these metaphysical baggage claims that you're making about

2103
02:09:24,520 --> 02:09:28,159
something that was supposed to be neutral? Those are all

2104
02:09:28,239 --> 02:09:28,920
non sequitors.

2105
02:09:29,960 --> 02:09:33,479
Speaker 27: Okay, well I kind of so, I kind of just

2106
02:09:33,680 --> 02:09:35,680
putting that aside. I kind of watched your debate on

2107
02:09:35,760 --> 02:09:39,399
Matt Dilla Hunty and I didn't agree, and I kind

2108
02:09:39,439 --> 02:09:42,640
of think he's an a hole. Sometimes, I do think

2109
02:09:42,760 --> 02:09:45,399
that you'll argument, and I talked to my fiance about this.

2110
02:09:45,800 --> 02:09:48,920
I think you'll argument your orthodox augment pretty much refute

2111
02:09:48,920 --> 02:09:51,760
a lot of the points that a lot of people make.

2112
02:09:51,840 --> 02:09:54,439
Like you said, well, that's the Protestant like Protestants believe

2113
02:09:54,479 --> 02:09:58,000
in solar script. Protestants would believe that as Orthodox, we

2114
02:09:58,039 --> 02:10:01,880
don't believe that. Do you feel like as an Orthodox

2115
02:10:02,199 --> 02:10:04,399
obviously because you know that it's true, But do you

2116
02:10:04,479 --> 02:10:07,039
think that makes it very difficult, especially when you bring

2117
02:10:07,079 --> 02:10:09,520
in the tag argument for an atheist to refute you,

2118
02:10:09,880 --> 02:10:12,119
because I feel like that's what I've seen a lot.

2119
02:10:12,960 --> 02:10:17,279
Speaker 30: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, Okay, Well, I mean, look, I've debated

2120
02:10:17,319 --> 02:10:19,800
a lot of atheists, and there are smart atheists, and

2121
02:10:19,880 --> 02:10:21,880
so the reason I don't go with all these classical

2122
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:24,640
forms of arguments is that smart atheists know how to

2123
02:10:25,399 --> 02:10:27,479
point out that they're bad, flawed arguments.

2124
02:10:28,319 --> 02:10:32,000
Speaker 27: Yeah, no, that's a good point. I will rewatch him

2125
02:10:32,279 --> 02:10:34,159
and then I'll come back on the stream.

2126
02:10:35,039 --> 02:10:38,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, tell me some more. I'm not familiar with Frank Trick,

2127
02:10:38,079 --> 02:10:44,479
but he looks like an evangelical, evidentialist apologist so Hades.

2128
02:10:51,159 --> 02:10:54,560
Oh yes, sir, so.

2129
02:10:55,159 --> 02:11:00,520
Speaker 31: Saint Phronsie she operated to me appear to me. That

2130
02:11:00,640 --> 02:11:01,439
was kind of crazy.

2131
02:11:03,000 --> 02:11:05,239
Speaker 6: Did she give you a new public divine revelation or

2132
02:11:05,319 --> 02:11:07,000
is it a private revelation? Yeah?

2133
02:11:07,199 --> 02:11:09,680
Speaker 31: Yeah, no, she told me that the whole church has

2134
02:11:09,680 --> 02:11:11,920
been corrupt, and I got to start the Phronsie at church.

2135
02:11:12,279 --> 02:11:16,960
Speaker 6: We got okay, yeah, St. Pronsia the Woozy. I hope

2136
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:19,079
that that that you have a special place for single

2137
02:11:19,159 --> 02:11:19,680
moms in.

2138
02:11:21,199 --> 02:11:23,520
Speaker 31: It's gonna be it's me all wine moms and there's

2139
02:11:23,520 --> 02:11:25,640
only be like one male pastor and he's going to

2140
02:11:25,720 --> 02:11:28,039
kind of like, you know, control all the wine.

2141
02:11:27,840 --> 02:11:31,880
Speaker 6: Moms the cathedral when you build it. Instead of having gargoyles,

2142
02:11:31,920 --> 02:11:34,239
you have pit bulls, right, and.

2143
02:11:34,239 --> 02:11:37,079
Speaker 31: They're going to be having like holding jugs of wine

2144
02:11:37,119 --> 02:11:37,840
into our fountain.

2145
02:11:38,039 --> 02:11:39,000
Speaker 7: So that's gonna be pretty cool.

2146
02:11:39,880 --> 02:11:42,119
Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, single, single wine moms are big fans of

2147
02:11:42,159 --> 02:11:43,920
pit bulls, so that's that's that's true.

2148
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:49,079
Speaker 31: Yeah, okay, Well, first before I get to my question,

2149
02:11:49,119 --> 02:11:50,680
I want to ask, did you did you see that

2150
02:11:51,279 --> 02:11:56,760
uh Redeemed Zoomer had a debate with a neo platonic

2151
02:11:57,039 --> 02:11:58,079
liberal Christian.

2152
02:11:58,840 --> 02:11:59,159
Speaker 6: I did not.

2153
02:12:00,439 --> 02:12:02,479
Speaker 7: Well, if you want to get a lot.

2154
02:12:02,359 --> 02:12:04,159
Speaker 31: Of views on YouTube, you can. You can do a

2155
02:12:04,399 --> 02:12:06,920
scuff debate review. I would call it like cringe cord.

2156
02:12:09,760 --> 02:12:11,720
It was like a fun dumb and dummer.

2157
02:12:11,560 --> 02:12:12,239
Speaker 7: Debating each other.

2158
02:12:12,359 --> 02:12:16,199
Speaker 31: So it sounds fun maybe anyway, So I'm not gonna

2159
02:12:16,239 --> 02:12:19,840
I know, I'm an Orthodox obviously, so I know about TAG.

2160
02:12:19,960 --> 02:12:22,560
But I was talking to an agnostic and I had

2161
02:12:22,640 --> 02:12:24,399
asked them if they had heard of TAG, and they

2162
02:12:24,439 --> 02:12:27,359
said that yes, and it sounded unsound, and so I

2163
02:12:27,439 --> 02:12:30,560
asked for a reason why, and they gave this reason.

2164
02:12:30,640 --> 02:12:32,479
Speaker 7: I was just hoping that you could go over it.

2165
02:12:32,640 --> 02:12:34,840
Speaker 31: I did say that they should come and speak to you,

2166
02:12:35,000 --> 02:12:36,800
but they said they would rather drag their hand over

2167
02:12:36,920 --> 02:12:37,600
a cheese grater.

2168
02:12:37,720 --> 02:12:40,520
Speaker 6: They talked to you, what I'm talking about, Well, you

2169
02:12:40,640 --> 02:12:43,920
tell him, you tell him. If he comes so comes

2170
02:12:43,960 --> 02:12:48,000
and talks to me, he's gonna get the uncreated farting

2171
02:12:48,079 --> 02:12:49,359
foot boom.

2172
02:12:49,800 --> 02:12:51,039
Speaker 7: You're gonna show him that I'm creative.

2173
02:12:51,039 --> 02:12:51,880
Speaker 6: That's where he's gonna get.

2174
02:12:52,600 --> 02:12:57,880
Speaker 31: Yes, Okay, So he said that TAG is unsound and

2175
02:12:57,960 --> 02:12:59,600
this obviously this is on Twitter, so it's a very

2176
02:12:59,600 --> 02:13:02,720
short on it. He says it unhinges on the semantic

2177
02:13:02,840 --> 02:13:07,399
tool as five, that possibility can infer necessity something that

2178
02:13:07,600 --> 02:13:11,079
is not uncontroversial. It also depends on a quite narrow

2179
02:13:11,199 --> 02:13:14,239
restrain of what logic and reason is. So I was

2180
02:13:14,279 --> 02:13:17,560
wondering what would be the refutation for that. In regards

2181
02:13:17,600 --> 02:13:18,840
to tag.

2182
02:13:21,119 --> 02:13:23,479
Speaker 6: It sounds like more of a critique of It's the

2183
02:13:23,560 --> 02:13:26,239
type of critique that very Stroud does of transcendent arguments

2184
02:13:26,279 --> 02:13:29,560
in general, or contient transcendent arguments, which it sounds like

2185
02:13:29,680 --> 02:13:33,359
it's critiquing the fact that the CONTs way of trying

2186
02:13:33,399 --> 02:13:36,840
to do or transit arguments assumes a lot of things

2187
02:13:36,840 --> 02:13:38,359
that are not yet proven or not that are not

2188
02:13:38,520 --> 02:13:44,199
yet demonstrated demonstrated, like the fact that, okay, let's say

2189
02:13:44,239 --> 02:13:48,560
that you prove a coherent transcendental system. That doesn't tell

2190
02:13:48,640 --> 02:13:50,920
us necessarily that it's working in the world. That's another

2191
02:13:50,960 --> 02:13:53,399
thing you have to assume. So I think that yes,

2192
02:13:53,840 --> 02:13:59,000
that is a valid critique of bare transcendental secular argumentation.

2193
02:14:00,359 --> 02:14:03,800
The difference is that we're not making contient transcendental arguments.

2194
02:14:03,880 --> 02:14:07,920
We're making a transcendental argument for God and for the

2195
02:14:08,000 --> 02:14:10,760
Christian paradigm. And I think FDA wants to speak on this.

2196
02:14:10,920 --> 02:14:15,119
He probably he's he's more skilled in modal logic than me,

2197
02:14:15,239 --> 02:14:17,399
so he would probably speak to this part of them.

2198
02:14:17,600 --> 02:14:17,840
I would.

2199
02:14:17,840 --> 02:14:19,239
Speaker 7: I would like to hear what he has to say too.

2200
02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:21,600
Speaker 17: All right, forgive me, because I'm.

2201
02:14:21,479 --> 02:14:22,319
Speaker 6: About to leave a little bit.

2202
02:14:22,359 --> 02:14:27,039
Speaker 17: I've got to play the bluegrass band called string being.

2203
02:14:27,760 --> 02:14:30,920
It's like a mix between Heidegger and uh.

2204
02:14:33,439 --> 02:14:37,479
Speaker 6: Beans. This is precisely a string being that will cause

2205
02:14:37,560 --> 02:14:38,840
the foot to fart, foot fart.

2206
02:14:39,039 --> 02:14:43,439
Speaker 32: Yes, So it's interesting he brought this. Somebody brought this

2207
02:14:43,960 --> 02:14:47,760
guy up, wrote me or something. I got a message

2208
02:14:47,760 --> 02:14:50,680
about this, and I can't remember. It's the problem with

2209
02:14:50,720 --> 02:14:51,119
the internet.

2210
02:14:51,199 --> 02:14:55,199
Speaker 4: You've got going to put you on something you can't remember.

2211
02:14:54,960 --> 02:15:00,600
Speaker 17: What message right. So from what I remember, I think

2212
02:15:00,720 --> 02:15:02,199
the individual.

2213
02:15:03,520 --> 02:15:08,640
Speaker 33: Is possibly confusing with the S five modal logic.

2214
02:15:12,600 --> 02:15:16,800
Speaker 34: Something that's probably similar to kind of more modern like

2215
02:15:16,920 --> 02:15:22,640
gradell ontological arguments that the possible being with these properties,

2216
02:15:22,680 --> 02:15:23,880
then it must be necessary.

2217
02:15:26,319 --> 02:15:29,359
Speaker 33: I could be wrong on that, but the way that

2218
02:15:29,439 --> 02:15:31,920
I construte that argument, and it's not dependent on S

2219
02:15:32,039 --> 02:15:34,600
five modal logic, it's just people wanted to see it

2220
02:15:35,600 --> 02:15:40,439
done in S five modal logic. None of that stuff

2221
02:15:40,800 --> 02:15:45,479
is what I did in that argument is formally invalid.

2222
02:15:45,760 --> 02:15:49,279
That all comes from both the k axiom and the

2223
02:15:51,640 --> 02:15:52,800
I'm trying to remember the other.

2224
02:15:55,159 --> 02:15:56,680
Speaker 17: Axiom that I used.

2225
02:15:58,640 --> 02:16:02,000
Speaker 35: With that, So I don't know what he's really kind

2226
02:16:02,039 --> 02:16:04,640
of talking about. I know a lot of people might

2227
02:16:04,720 --> 02:16:07,880
not be familiar with S five modal logic.

2228
02:16:11,039 --> 02:16:12,239
Speaker 6: He might be one of them.

2229
02:16:12,159 --> 02:16:13,960
Speaker 7: Too, And so it is confusing.

2230
02:16:14,119 --> 02:16:24,239
Speaker 17: How can, for example, just from possibility you move to necessity. Again,

2231
02:16:24,880 --> 02:16:33,879
this is quite complicated modal logic. And again I just used.

2232
02:16:35,840 --> 02:16:40,200
Speaker 35: The axioms like the k axiom in some various other

2233
02:16:40,280 --> 02:16:41,920
thing straight just from.

2234
02:16:43,319 --> 02:16:44,040
Speaker 17: The modal logic.

2235
02:16:44,159 --> 02:16:48,360
Speaker 35: So there's nothing formally invalid about about that.

2236
02:16:51,319 --> 02:16:56,040
Speaker 17: Now, Jay is correct if he is hinting at.

2237
02:16:58,840 --> 02:17:02,559
Speaker 35: An objection to trans in and anal arguments itself, such

2238
02:17:02,680 --> 02:17:07,440
that they're well, they're fulfilling possibly an epistemic or a

2239
02:17:07,559 --> 02:17:08,319
modal condition.

2240
02:17:08,479 --> 02:17:12,000
Speaker 17: But that doesn't get you to what's called a.

2241
02:17:15,040 --> 02:17:18,399
Speaker 35: Verification principle, that the thing exists beyond the cost space

2242
02:17:18,479 --> 02:17:19,079
of reasons.

2243
02:17:19,840 --> 02:17:21,639
Speaker 17: That is the Barry Stroud.

2244
02:17:24,000 --> 02:17:29,639
Speaker 35: Argument argument, which just misses the whole point that again

2245
02:17:29,760 --> 02:17:34,600
we're not system building. And my whole argument is our

2246
02:17:34,760 --> 02:17:43,479
argument is premised on the radical dichotomy between an autonomous

2247
02:17:43,559 --> 02:17:46,280
epistemology and a revealed epistemology.

2248
02:17:46,479 --> 02:17:49,479
Speaker 17: So I think that Barry Stroud's.

2249
02:17:49,079 --> 02:17:52,639
Speaker 35: Argument is exactly the argument when we want I accept

2250
02:17:52,840 --> 02:17:56,840
and be like exactly like all these So people will

2251
02:17:56,920 --> 02:17:58,959
point like, well, what do you how do you do

2252
02:17:59,399 --> 02:18:03,319
with Chisholm's problem of criterion, how do you deal with

2253
02:18:04,200 --> 02:18:05,200
Barry Straus's army.

2254
02:18:05,440 --> 02:18:07,200
Speaker 17: Those are all arguments for TAG.

2255
02:18:09,360 --> 02:18:12,920
Speaker 35: They all prove our point that even if you try

2256
02:18:13,040 --> 02:18:15,479
to take the form of the argument and do this,

2257
02:18:15,719 --> 02:18:17,600
try to pull this stuff off, it doesn't work.

2258
02:18:18,200 --> 02:18:18,399
Speaker 15: Why.

2259
02:18:19,000 --> 02:18:20,719
Speaker 35: It's not because the form of the arguments, because of

2260
02:18:20,840 --> 02:18:26,479
the the it's the pretended autonomy starting from an autonomous position.

2261
02:18:28,479 --> 02:18:30,559
Speaker 7: I see, Okay, people miss that because.

2262
02:18:30,319 --> 02:18:33,040
Speaker 18: We're just so tall, like caught up in.

2263
02:18:36,680 --> 02:18:39,159
Speaker 15: And our own autonomy and these systems.

2264
02:18:40,520 --> 02:18:43,079
Speaker 31: Right, Yeah, I think that was a great explanation. I

2265
02:18:43,120 --> 02:18:45,440
had it recommended him you because I know that, you know,

2266
02:18:46,000 --> 02:18:48,879
you're really good of TAG and stuff. But apparently he

2267
02:18:48,959 --> 02:18:50,840
had better things to do, and apparently he thought that

2268
02:18:51,719 --> 02:18:53,520
self harm was better than talking to Jay.

2269
02:18:53,719 --> 02:18:56,520
Speaker 17: So and I was just like, I saw that someone

2270
02:18:56,719 --> 02:18:59,440
saw something. He says, I'd rather crate my hand through

2271
02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:00,680
a great.

2272
02:19:02,079 --> 02:19:03,760
Speaker 6: I mean when you come over here.

2273
02:19:03,639 --> 02:19:05,879
Speaker 15: You brother, that is haram.

2274
02:19:06,120 --> 02:19:08,959
Speaker 7: She's greater hand handed, she's greater brother.

2275
02:19:09,040 --> 02:19:10,719
Speaker 6: You're going to get the farting foot over here. And

2276
02:19:10,879 --> 02:19:14,159
I don't blame people because that can be a traumatic event.

2277
02:19:14,239 --> 02:19:21,440
Rash one. What's up, by the way, that's sahe. The

2278
02:19:21,520 --> 02:19:27,879
farting foot is saw he. For those of doubt, that

2279
02:19:28,040 --> 02:19:30,639
is not daif that is sah. What's up?

2280
02:19:30,719 --> 02:19:30,840
Speaker 10: Man?

2281
02:19:31,959 --> 02:19:33,680
Speaker 6: Hello? Are you an star seed?

2282
02:19:33,760 --> 02:19:40,600
Speaker 7: Brother? Is it okay? If I ask you some things

2283
02:19:40,600 --> 02:19:41,600
about council don.

2284
02:19:43,760 --> 02:19:45,040
Speaker 6: Yeah? What's what's on your mind?

2285
02:19:45,920 --> 02:19:51,159
Speaker 7: I'm to know, just to introduce some Oriental luisidox.

2286
02:19:52,159 --> 02:19:55,319
Speaker 6: Okay, Uh, not really the topics, but what's on your mind?

2287
02:19:56,440 --> 02:19:59,280
Speaker 29: If if it's if it's not appropriate for this live,

2288
02:19:59,360 --> 02:20:00,719
I can read you in another time.

2289
02:20:01,559 --> 02:20:02,520
Speaker 6: What what's the question?

2290
02:20:04,239 --> 02:20:07,840
Speaker 7: Well, it's uh, it's on the letter of the bus.

2291
02:20:10,920 --> 02:20:14,239
Speaker 6: I don't know specifically or have a hard position on

2292
02:20:15,479 --> 02:20:19,159
ibs of Odessa and the letters or whatever. I mean, Calcadan,

2293
02:20:19,280 --> 02:20:23,000
don't they like reject like they say the guys weren't bad,

2294
02:20:23,079 --> 02:20:25,879
but the letters are false or something like that. I

2295
02:20:25,920 --> 02:20:27,440
haven't looked so, I haven't looked at this in a

2296
02:20:27,479 --> 02:20:27,840
long time.

2297
02:20:29,159 --> 02:20:32,280
Speaker 29: Okay, So so you're not sure on the position whether

2298
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:33,879
this letter is Orthodox or not.

2299
02:20:34,159 --> 02:20:37,399
Speaker 6: No, I'm just trying to remember that doesn't Calcadan says

2300
02:20:37,520 --> 02:20:43,159
something like the guys are bad, but the guys are

2301
02:20:43,200 --> 02:20:44,120
okay with the letters are bad?

2302
02:20:44,200 --> 02:20:45,159
Speaker 7: Is that? Do you do? You?

2303
02:20:46,719 --> 02:20:47,760
Speaker 6: Is that the is that the point?

2304
02:20:49,159 --> 02:20:56,719
Speaker 7: I've heard the Oriental argument that the Fifth Council it

2305
02:20:57,440 --> 02:20:59,079
says that the letter is Orthodox.

2306
02:20:59,200 --> 02:21:00,719
Speaker 6: So the Fifth Council.

2307
02:21:01,440 --> 02:21:11,959
Speaker 29: Yeah, like a Constantinople too. Oh okay, so that would

2308
02:21:12,000 --> 02:21:13,239
obviously propose an.

2309
02:21:13,120 --> 02:21:17,079
Speaker 6: Issue because okay, so the accusation is about Monopstism, not

2310
02:21:17,360 --> 02:21:21,079
Thestorianism I thought you were talking about. I'm getting this

2311
02:21:21,159 --> 02:21:23,200
mixed up with like Theodore of Cyrus and the idea

2312
02:21:23,280 --> 02:21:29,040
that but the idea is that, uh, he was a

2313
02:21:29,079 --> 02:21:32,639
supporter of Cyril, right, mhmm.

2314
02:21:34,879 --> 02:21:35,879
Speaker 7: So I'm just.

2315
02:21:36,360 --> 02:21:39,200
Speaker 29: Because it's important for me to for you to tell

2316
02:21:39,319 --> 02:21:42,719
me if the letter is Orthodox or not because the letter,

2317
02:21:43,280 --> 02:21:45,840
like it directly attacks Cyril.

2318
02:21:46,000 --> 02:21:51,200
Speaker 6: So oh IBus attacks Cyril. Yeah, I haven't read this letter.

2319
02:21:51,239 --> 02:21:52,600
I don't remember, honestly.

2320
02:21:54,079 --> 02:21:54,559
Speaker 7: Okay, So.

2321
02:21:56,200 --> 02:21:58,239
Speaker 29: Is it okay if I talk to you another time,

2322
02:21:58,920 --> 02:22:03,799
because because I'm not here, you know, to debate or

2323
02:22:03,879 --> 02:22:05,000
to expose you or anything.

2324
02:22:05,079 --> 02:22:10,799
Speaker 6: So so wait, so it is about historian stuff.

2325
02:22:12,239 --> 02:22:15,159
Speaker 7: Well, no it's not. I'm not accusing you of being

2326
02:22:15,159 --> 02:22:15,639
an historian.

2327
02:22:15,719 --> 02:22:16,959
Speaker 6: No, I'm talking about Ibis.

2328
02:22:18,920 --> 02:22:23,520
Speaker 7: Well, he clearly identifies Cyril as an office.

2329
02:22:23,959 --> 02:22:31,079
Speaker 6: So well, aside from all this, like I can tell

2330
02:22:31,120 --> 02:22:33,680
you what the position on the actual theology is like

2331
02:22:33,760 --> 02:22:34,879
in terms of the Fifth Council?

2332
02:22:36,920 --> 02:22:37,399
Speaker 7: Is that do?

2333
02:22:37,559 --> 02:22:39,559
Speaker 6: Is that like a would you take issue with that

2334
02:22:39,639 --> 02:22:40,440
or would you agree with that?

2335
02:22:42,959 --> 02:22:46,280
Speaker 7: If the formula and the Fifth Council's Orthodox are not.

2336
02:22:47,760 --> 02:22:50,680
Speaker 6: Well, I'm saying a lot of a lot of Orientals

2337
02:22:51,440 --> 02:22:53,479
believe that it is. So are you coming from the

2338
02:22:54,120 --> 02:22:56,440
like a Coptic type position or like an Eastern Syrian?

2339
02:22:56,799 --> 02:22:57,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm Coptic.

2340
02:22:58,600 --> 02:23:02,319
Speaker 6: Okay. So oftentimes you guys agree that the Fifth Council

2341
02:23:02,600 --> 02:23:05,239
is correct, that it's stating the fact that the subject

2342
02:23:05,799 --> 02:23:06,600
is only divine.

2343
02:23:07,760 --> 02:23:10,040
Speaker 7: I've heard that, Yes, I've heard this few.

2344
02:23:10,600 --> 02:23:13,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, well that's I mean every Orthodox person says that

2345
02:23:13,520 --> 02:23:15,319
if you read Kenneth Wesh's book, if you read the

2346
02:23:15,920 --> 02:23:17,840
Gutkans book, I mean, it's that's what he's saying.

2347
02:23:19,079 --> 02:23:24,000
Speaker 29: My my argument was, if you, as an Eastern Orthodox

2348
02:23:24,079 --> 02:23:27,680
hold that all your ecmmenical councils are you know, insoluble.

2349
02:23:29,360 --> 02:23:33,120
Speaker 7: A letter of IBus being Orthodox would propose a huge issue.

2350
02:23:37,159 --> 02:23:41,520
Speaker 6: I don't have my book, my book which would cover this,

2351
02:23:41,799 --> 02:23:46,159
so I don't know what he says about the IBIS issue.

2352
02:23:46,319 --> 02:23:46,959
I don't remember.

2353
02:23:48,239 --> 02:23:50,159
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, that's fine, but we don't have to talk

2354
02:23:50,200 --> 02:23:52,239
about it if you if you don't have it right now.

2355
02:23:54,479 --> 02:23:56,079
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'd have to brush up on this, honest, I

2356
02:23:56,079 --> 02:23:56,479
don't remember.

2357
02:23:58,360 --> 02:23:58,959
Speaker 7: Okay, will you?

2358
02:23:59,280 --> 02:24:02,680
Speaker 29: Will you in the few sure actually do videos on

2359
02:24:02,840 --> 02:24:03,840
Oriental Orthodox?

2360
02:24:03,879 --> 02:24:06,239
Speaker 7: You're not because you you rarely do something.

2361
02:24:08,040 --> 02:24:11,600
Speaker 6: I mean, we did plenty of those with David Rhim

2362
02:24:11,799 --> 02:24:13,520
So yeah.

2363
02:24:13,319 --> 02:24:15,239
Speaker 7: I've watched his debates with Daniel, but.

2364
02:24:17,719 --> 02:24:21,879
Speaker 29: They were mainly on the definitions of hypostasis in all

2365
02:24:22,000 --> 02:24:22,879
these words.

2366
02:24:23,120 --> 02:24:26,959
Speaker 6: Right, so at the Fifth at the Fifth Council, they

2367
02:24:27,200 --> 02:24:31,879
stress that hoypostasis refers to the subject, not the incarnated nature.

2368
02:24:32,360 --> 02:24:34,120
And most of the time, most of the time, you

2369
02:24:34,280 --> 02:24:38,319
guys are sticking with what hypostasis meant at the time

2370
02:24:38,360 --> 02:24:42,079
of Nicea, and so after the Cappadocians and Letter thirty

2371
02:24:42,120 --> 02:24:45,840
eight of what's called Letter Basil's Letter thirty eight, hypostasis

2372
02:24:45,920 --> 02:24:48,680
becomes more precisely the subject that has the nature and

2373
02:24:48,760 --> 02:24:53,200
not just the incarnated nature. And that's why you guys

2374
02:24:53,280 --> 02:24:56,239
thought that we're saying, or Calcidon is saying, that there's

2375
02:24:56,280 --> 02:24:59,719
two subjects. So my assumption would be that probably they

2376
02:24:59,760 --> 02:25:02,120
can usion or the debate about this letter would relate

2377
02:25:02,200 --> 02:25:02,639
to that too.

2378
02:25:05,000 --> 02:25:08,840
Speaker 7: Well, yeah sure, but I'm my My main point is

2379
02:25:08,920 --> 02:25:11,399
that if Cyril is a saint in your church, he

2380
02:25:11,520 --> 02:25:13,959
can't be attacked in But.

2381
02:25:14,040 --> 02:25:16,760
Speaker 6: If the attack is over the confusion as to whether

2382
02:25:17,000 --> 02:25:20,959
hypostasis means an individuated nature or the subject, then that's

2383
02:25:21,000 --> 02:25:22,479
what that's the source of the confusion.

2384
02:25:24,479 --> 02:25:30,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, sure, yeah, okay, but yeah, I guess your point.

2385
02:25:31,879 --> 02:25:36,600
It's just that I don't I don't. I don't really

2386
02:25:36,760 --> 02:25:40,600
understand why. For example, I don't understand.

2387
02:25:40,639 --> 02:25:44,239
Speaker 6: So according to Orthodox wiki, and this is just like

2388
02:25:44,399 --> 02:25:48,639
the standard Orthodox position. Ibs later reconciled with Cyril. Cyril

2389
02:25:48,680 --> 02:25:51,879
and during the Fourth Council of Calcedon, he anathematized the

2390
02:25:51,959 --> 02:25:54,319
story us both orally and in writing. And so that's

2391
02:25:54,760 --> 02:25:56,680
that's what I thought was the case, but I wasn't

2392
02:25:56,680 --> 02:25:59,280
sure because I didn't remember. But that's what I was

2393
02:25:59,319 --> 02:26:00,879
referring to the getting of this discussion.

2394
02:26:01,719 --> 02:26:05,600
Speaker 29: Well, I I fully I agree that the Eastern Orthodox

2395
02:26:05,719 --> 02:26:06,879
Church an athematizes.

2396
02:26:07,399 --> 02:26:09,639
Speaker 6: No, it's said IBus. Did you not hear what I said?

2397
02:26:10,399 --> 02:26:14,639
Speaker 7: Yeah, I understand that I was an athematizes, as.

2398
02:26:15,319 --> 02:26:17,000
Speaker 6: It says, reconciled with Cyril.

2399
02:26:19,479 --> 02:26:23,280
Speaker 7: Well, when when Ibis wrote the letters through was already dead.

2400
02:26:23,159 --> 02:26:26,600
Speaker 6: Though, I mean, well, I guess this will be the

2401
02:26:26,639 --> 02:26:30,440
point of contention then, because our position is that Ibis

2402
02:26:30,520 --> 02:26:33,479
later reconciled with Cyril, and during the Fourth Council of Calcidon,

2403
02:26:33,879 --> 02:26:36,639
a mathematized and Astorias both early and in writing. The

2404
02:26:36,719 --> 02:26:39,479
fathers of the council then rehabilitated and declared him to

2405
02:26:39,479 --> 02:26:42,040
be Orthodox. So it sounds like you're citing the thing

2406
02:26:42,239 --> 02:26:44,399
that is not taking this into account.

2407
02:26:48,120 --> 02:26:48,319
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2408
02:26:48,360 --> 02:26:51,559
Speaker 29: But but if your counsels are infallible and they called

2409
02:26:51,680 --> 02:26:55,120
this this letter of accusing Cyril asm and office.

2410
02:26:56,399 --> 02:26:57,600
Speaker 7: And where is that?

2411
02:26:58,239 --> 02:26:58,920
Speaker 6: Where are you getting that?

2412
02:27:02,559 --> 02:27:06,120
Speaker 7: Where do I get that? The letters?

2413
02:27:07,319 --> 02:27:12,280
Speaker 6: Well, I just read you Calcidon saying that he anathematizes Cyril.

2414
02:27:15,159 --> 02:27:16,559
Speaker 7: Who anathematizes Cyril?

2415
02:27:17,520 --> 02:27:19,760
Speaker 6: I mean, excuse me, anathematizing stories, not Cyril. Excuse me?

2416
02:27:20,799 --> 02:27:23,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, I agree. Here a mathematizes and stories. That's not

2417
02:27:23,799 --> 02:27:24,200
my point.

2418
02:27:27,120 --> 02:27:29,280
Speaker 6: This is what happens then, So you guys, then this

2419
02:27:29,360 --> 02:27:30,840
is what you guys tend to do, which is like

2420
02:27:30,959 --> 02:27:34,840
you hinge on like these really legalistic ideas of like

2421
02:27:35,239 --> 02:27:37,719
the terms like have you read this first and second

2422
02:27:37,799 --> 02:27:39,200
letter to six Census by Cyril?

2423
02:27:40,360 --> 02:27:40,600
Speaker 7: Sure?

2424
02:27:41,200 --> 02:27:43,239
Speaker 6: Okay? Does he say there's two natures.

2425
02:27:45,280 --> 02:27:46,600
Speaker 7: After the union?

2426
02:27:47,440 --> 02:27:49,600
Speaker 6: Yeah? Does Cyril say that in the in the first

2427
02:27:49,639 --> 02:27:51,000
and second letters to six Census?

2428
02:27:53,200 --> 02:27:53,559
Speaker 7: No? Not?

2429
02:27:53,879 --> 02:27:58,159
Speaker 6: Yes he does, Yes, he does. He says there's two natures.

2430
02:27:58,559 --> 02:28:00,440
This is why you guys typically don't like the two

2431
02:28:00,520 --> 02:28:01,399
letters to sucsensus.

2432
02:28:02,639 --> 02:28:05,399
Speaker 7: No. If he says there are two natures after the union,

2433
02:28:05,920 --> 02:28:07,559
that would be an issue. He doesn't see that.

2434
02:28:07,760 --> 02:28:09,879
Speaker 6: Yes, you doesn't say that that's the point of those letters.

2435
02:28:10,559 --> 02:28:12,079
Why would it? And but why would it be an issue?

2436
02:28:12,079 --> 02:28:13,399
Why would it be an issue to say there's two

2437
02:28:13,440 --> 02:28:14,040
natures after.

2438
02:28:13,920 --> 02:28:17,520
Speaker 7: The union, after the union, because that would be him

2439
02:28:17,600 --> 02:28:18,639
contradicting himself.

2440
02:28:19,520 --> 02:28:21,520
Speaker 6: Know what, It would be your misunderstanding and would be

2441
02:28:21,600 --> 02:28:22,799
proving that your position is wrong.

2442
02:28:23,920 --> 02:28:27,520
Speaker 29: If he uses the words feces to one time only

2443
02:28:27,639 --> 02:28:29,920
once after the union, then he says two after the union,

2444
02:28:29,959 --> 02:28:30,959
that would be contradicted.

2445
02:28:31,399 --> 02:28:34,879
Speaker 6: So you so, so you think that the divine nature

2446
02:28:35,079 --> 02:28:36,280
suffered on the cross.

2447
02:28:38,520 --> 02:28:41,680
Speaker 7: The twelfth Anathema states the Word of God suffered in depression.

2448
02:28:42,000 --> 02:28:45,239
Speaker 6: That's the subject, right, So the divine nature didn't suffer, right?

2449
02:28:46,479 --> 02:28:48,680
Did it undergo? Can it undergo change?

2450
02:28:50,360 --> 02:28:53,399
Speaker 7: I don't. I don't use the separation of natures.

2451
02:28:53,840 --> 02:28:57,399
Speaker 6: It's not a separation. Distinguishing is not separating. That's that's kind,

2452
02:28:58,399 --> 02:29:01,079
that's kind. Any well then then there's nothing wrong with

2453
02:29:01,159 --> 02:29:06,600
distinguishing even after the union. Sure yeah, sure, Well then

2454
02:29:06,680 --> 02:29:08,079
that just contradicts what you just said.

2455
02:29:09,079 --> 02:29:12,319
Speaker 7: No I said, I I don't. I don't say the

2456
02:29:12,440 --> 02:29:13,600
divine nature died.

2457
02:29:13,799 --> 02:29:14,120
Speaker 17: I don't.

2458
02:29:14,159 --> 02:29:17,000
Speaker 6: I don't persona No I said, didn't undergo any change

2459
02:29:17,239 --> 02:29:20,840
or any alteration in the death. The answer is no, Right,

2460
02:29:22,719 --> 02:29:23,559
we don't.

2461
02:29:23,319 --> 02:29:25,760
Speaker 29: Speak of it that way because we only believe in

2462
02:29:25,799 --> 02:29:26,319
one nature.

2463
02:29:28,239 --> 02:29:30,040
Speaker 6: So what died on the cross?

2464
02:29:32,319 --> 02:29:34,079
Speaker 7: The Word of God.

2465
02:29:34,000 --> 02:29:36,840
Speaker 6: Died in his In what way.

2466
02:29:38,520 --> 02:29:40,799
Speaker 7: He died? Is soul separated from his?

2467
02:29:40,879 --> 02:29:43,000
Speaker 6: Oh, and that's a feature of his human nature?

2468
02:29:43,040 --> 02:29:43,159
Speaker 10: Right?

2469
02:29:45,360 --> 02:29:47,319
Speaker 7: Well, he only has one nature.

2470
02:29:47,520 --> 02:29:50,760
Speaker 6: Now again, so did the did the human nature become

2471
02:29:50,879 --> 02:29:54,239
transformed into the uncreated? So see, you're making the tertim

2472
02:29:54,280 --> 02:29:56,440
quid argument. This is why your hair I'm not saying

2473
02:29:56,559 --> 02:29:58,360
the human this is why your hare to it. But

2474
02:29:58,680 --> 02:30:01,120
then then what you just said is because you said

2475
02:30:01,479 --> 02:30:04,200
his death is the severance of his human soul from

2476
02:30:04,239 --> 02:30:06,479
his human body. Okay, that's not something that's a property

2477
02:30:06,520 --> 02:30:07,239
of the divine nature.

2478
02:30:07,959 --> 02:30:10,559
Speaker 7: I didn't say the severance of the human nature.

2479
02:30:10,280 --> 02:30:16,120
Speaker 6: From the human No, the human soul from the human body. Sure, okay,

2480
02:30:16,280 --> 02:30:19,239
then the change or alteration or death was what the

2481
02:30:19,280 --> 02:30:21,399
divine subject experienced in his human nature.

2482
02:30:23,280 --> 02:30:23,479
Speaker 7: Sure.

2483
02:30:24,159 --> 02:30:26,399
Speaker 6: Well, that's the orthodox position that contradicts what you just said.

2484
02:30:26,399 --> 02:30:27,680
A minute ago. You said there's one nature.

2485
02:30:29,479 --> 02:30:32,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, we believe in one. Composite nature includes both natures.

2486
02:30:32,840 --> 02:30:37,360
Speaker 6: So a composite nature means that then there's still two.

2487
02:30:37,600 --> 02:30:40,000
If you say it's composite and that the human nature

2488
02:30:40,040 --> 02:30:44,639
experiences that severance, then then he retains what's proper to

2489
02:30:44,719 --> 02:30:47,159
those two natures, even after the union. That was the

2490
02:30:47,200 --> 02:30:49,239
whole point of two six zerials, two letters to his

2491
02:30:49,239 --> 02:30:52,440
sixth census. He says, even after the union, he still

2492
02:30:52,559 --> 02:30:55,319
retains those properties to the things that are proper to

2493
02:30:55,399 --> 02:30:55,959
those natures.

2494
02:30:59,280 --> 02:31:01,760
Speaker 7: No, I'm I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

2495
02:31:03,799 --> 02:31:08,600
Speaker 6: In the Death of Christ, do you distinguish nature in person?

2496
02:31:10,920 --> 02:31:16,200
Speaker 7: Nature and person? Sure? Okay, do you because I don't

2497
02:31:16,239 --> 02:31:17,000
really understand?

2498
02:31:17,680 --> 02:31:20,200
Speaker 6: So this is okay. So the whole debate, which is

2499
02:31:20,239 --> 02:31:23,040
about nature in person? You say, now you don't understand that.

2500
02:31:24,440 --> 02:31:26,959
Speaker 7: No, I'm not saying I don't understand what I'm saying.

2501
02:31:27,079 --> 02:31:31,360
Speaker 29: I don't understand what you mean by differentiating the nature

2502
02:31:31,399 --> 02:31:31,799
in person.

2503
02:31:32,280 --> 02:31:33,920
Speaker 6: How do you do the trinity if you don't distinguish

2504
02:31:34,000 --> 02:31:34,600
nature in person?

2505
02:31:36,280 --> 02:31:36,399
Speaker 26: Oh?

2506
02:31:36,440 --> 02:31:36,719
Speaker 6: Okay?

2507
02:31:36,879 --> 02:31:39,520
Speaker 7: So yeah, I don't believe that Jesus has the same

2508
02:31:39,600 --> 02:31:44,920
nature as the Father. What are you now?

2509
02:31:44,959 --> 02:31:49,559
Speaker 6: You're an area? He doesn't have the same divinity as

2510
02:31:49,600 --> 02:31:49,920
the Father.

2511
02:31:50,799 --> 02:31:52,559
Speaker 7: No, he has the same essence as the Father and

2512
02:31:52,680 --> 02:31:53,479
not the same nature.

2513
02:31:54,319 --> 02:31:57,280
Speaker 6: What's how is nature distinguished from essence? They mean the

2514
02:31:57,319 --> 02:32:00,799
same thing in the Patristic teaching. No, we don't believe

2515
02:32:00,840 --> 02:32:04,559
that this is your whole religion is confused and constantly

2516
02:32:05,079 --> 02:32:08,079
just contradicting over stupid terms. What matters is the meaning

2517
02:32:08,120 --> 02:32:10,879
of the terms. So is there a distinction in nature

2518
02:32:10,920 --> 02:32:11,879
in person? In the trinity?

2519
02:32:15,559 --> 02:32:18,600
Speaker 7: We don't believe that the nature of Jesus right now

2520
02:32:18,719 --> 02:32:19,920
is the same nature as the Father.

2521
02:32:20,319 --> 02:32:22,319
Speaker 6: Oh, then he didn't save anybody, and then you're a

2522
02:32:22,360 --> 02:32:25,639
stupid heretic. Exactly like I said from the beginning, How

2523
02:32:26,079 --> 02:32:27,959
does he reconcile us to God if he's not both

2524
02:32:28,000 --> 02:32:31,440
God and man? He is fully okay, But you just

2525
02:32:31,440 --> 02:32:33,000
said he doesn't have the same nature as the.

2526
02:32:33,000 --> 02:32:37,280
Speaker 7: Father because we believe that the union.

2527
02:32:38,520 --> 02:32:41,200
Speaker 6: So that's a tersham quid argument. So he doesn't save anybody.

2528
02:32:41,440 --> 02:32:43,559
He's a third thing and he's not like anybody else.

2529
02:32:43,600 --> 02:32:45,559
You just said he's not like the Father, then he's

2530
02:32:45,600 --> 02:32:48,319
also not like us, so he's a tersham quid. You're

2531
02:32:48,360 --> 02:32:51,120
not aware of the constant common critique of your position.

2532
02:32:53,239 --> 02:32:54,680
Speaker 7: No, I understand what you mean.

2533
02:32:54,719 --> 02:32:57,559
Speaker 6: I'm just how do you answer the tertiam quid critique? Then,

2534
02:32:57,639 --> 02:33:01,719
since you know about it, I know about it. You

2535
02:33:01,840 --> 02:33:05,159
just said, all right, you're a liar. You just said

2536
02:33:05,200 --> 02:33:06,600
you do. You just said you know about it?

2537
02:33:06,639 --> 02:33:07,079
Speaker 10: What do you mean?

2538
02:33:07,639 --> 02:33:08,479
Speaker 18: No, I didn't tell you.

2539
02:33:08,600 --> 02:33:12,200
Speaker 7: I completely told you that. I don't understand what you

2540
02:33:12,239 --> 02:33:14,719
mean by differentiating the nature at I don't know what

2541
02:33:14,840 --> 02:33:15,920
you're getting it, because.

2542
02:33:16,200 --> 02:33:18,520
Speaker 6: How does he reconcile God and man if he's not

2543
02:33:18,799 --> 02:33:20,760
like the do you think so? It sounds like you

2544
02:33:20,840 --> 02:33:23,360
think nature is person. What we think person is? You

2545
02:33:23,399 --> 02:33:24,719
think nature is? Is that what's going on?

2546
02:33:24,879 --> 02:33:27,920
Speaker 7: Don't I don't understand that. I don't think that nature.

2547
02:33:27,680 --> 02:33:31,440
Speaker 6: Is First, Oh God, then how is how is he?

2548
02:33:31,840 --> 02:33:33,879
How does he reconciles to the Father If he doesn't

2549
02:33:33,920 --> 02:33:37,159
have the nature of the Father, he has of the Father?

2550
02:33:37,319 --> 02:33:39,000
You just said he doesn't have the nature of the Father?

2551
02:33:39,079 --> 02:33:40,520
Speaker 7: Oh my God, I said he has.

2552
02:33:40,600 --> 02:33:45,200
Speaker 6: But it's not that You're a confused quack. Get out

2553
02:33:45,239 --> 02:33:48,399
of here. I can't take this anymore. This is what

2554
02:33:48,479 --> 02:33:51,280
you people do. You you wander chasing your own tails

2555
02:33:51,280 --> 02:33:52,360
in your stupid confusion.

2556
02:33:55,319 --> 02:33:55,799
Speaker 7: No, it is that.

2557
02:33:56,200 --> 02:33:58,319
Speaker 10: It is that it is now.

2558
02:33:58,440 --> 02:34:01,280
Speaker 6: You came here with God, which when I read you

2559
02:34:01,360 --> 02:34:04,239
our position refuted your gotcha. And then when I start

2560
02:34:04,280 --> 02:34:06,920
asking you about what you actually believe, you have no

2561
02:34:07,000 --> 02:34:10,200
idea what you actually believe. In your continued I did

2562
02:34:10,360 --> 02:34:16,479
because you're an idiot. Hello, everyone heard you contradict yourself

2563
02:34:16,520 --> 02:34:21,719
as we actually got into the issues. Hey do you

2564
02:34:21,799 --> 02:34:22,040
hear me?

2565
02:34:22,040 --> 02:34:22,360
Speaker 7: All right?

2566
02:34:22,680 --> 02:34:27,280
Speaker 28: Yeah, all right, So a orthodox I just wanted to

2567
02:34:28,120 --> 02:34:32,440
comment on add something for the Holy Spirit texts in

2568
02:34:32,479 --> 02:34:36,440
the Old Testament because that was relevant to a bit

2569
02:34:36,520 --> 02:34:42,040
ago so there's a very clear one in second Savil

2570
02:34:42,760 --> 02:34:45,000
twenty three. This is, by the way, all from sam

2571
02:34:45,120 --> 02:34:47,760
chamoun I Binge watched his lectures in the Old Testament,

2572
02:34:48,799 --> 02:34:52,920
so this records David's last words. So it goes, I'll

2573
02:34:52,959 --> 02:34:56,520
read from one to three. Now these are the last

2574
02:34:56,559 --> 02:34:57,239
words of David.

2575
02:34:57,479 --> 02:34:59,959
Speaker 7: That says David is Jesse. That says, the man.

2576
02:35:00,079 --> 02:35:02,799
Speaker 28: Raised up on high, the annointed of the God of Jacob,

2577
02:35:02,920 --> 02:35:05,840
and the sweet saw mister Israel. Verse two, the Spirit

2578
02:35:06,040 --> 02:35:08,559
of the Lord spoke by me, and his word was

2579
02:35:08,639 --> 02:35:11,760
on my tongue. And then notice verse three, the God

2580
02:35:11,959 --> 02:35:14,559
of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me.

2581
02:35:14,799 --> 02:35:17,280
Speaker 7: He who rules over men must be just realized.

2582
02:35:17,440 --> 02:35:20,440
Speaker 6: So the Holy Spirit is the God of Israel, correct exactly.

2583
02:35:21,120 --> 02:35:24,600
Speaker 7: And then there's a very nice passage.

2584
02:35:24,600 --> 02:35:25,360
Speaker 6: I love it so much.

2585
02:35:25,639 --> 02:35:30,000
Speaker 28: In Isaiah sixty three. There's nine to ten which mentions

2586
02:35:30,120 --> 02:35:34,200
the Holy Trinity correct saying in all the affliction he

2587
02:35:34,319 --> 02:35:39,200
was afflicted, and the Angel of his Presence, the Angel

2588
02:35:39,239 --> 02:35:42,600
of the Father, the Angel of the Lord, and the

2589
02:35:42,639 --> 02:35:44,719
Angel of his Presence saved them in his love and

2590
02:35:44,799 --> 02:35:47,079
his pity. He redeemed them, and he bore them and

2591
02:35:47,159 --> 02:35:49,319
carried them all the days of old verse ten. But

2592
02:35:49,440 --> 02:35:52,719
they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned

2593
02:35:52,760 --> 02:35:54,959
himself against them as an enemy, and he fought against them.

2594
02:35:55,319 --> 02:35:59,280
So mentioning the Holy Spirit here it says grieved his

2595
02:35:59,399 --> 02:36:04,200
Holy Spirit. It basically an active force or an impersonal

2596
02:36:04,280 --> 02:36:05,680
object cannot be grieved.

2597
02:36:06,040 --> 02:36:09,200
Speaker 7: So this person had. And then just a few verses

2598
02:36:09,280 --> 02:36:12,319
later verse fourteen. Yes, very interesting.

2599
02:36:12,840 --> 02:36:15,360
Speaker 28: So as a peace goes down into the valley and

2600
02:36:15,559 --> 02:36:17,799
the spirit of the Lord causes him to rest, So

2601
02:36:17,920 --> 02:36:20,440
you lead your people, you make yourself a glorious name.

2602
02:36:21,000 --> 02:36:24,239
What's good to point out here is it says the

2603
02:36:24,319 --> 02:36:29,479
spirit of the Lord causes him to rest. The Hebrew

2604
02:36:29,600 --> 02:36:33,399
word there is Nuah, and the same word as an

2605
02:36:33,479 --> 02:36:38,680
excess thirty three fourteen, where God's where God says, and

2606
02:36:38,840 --> 02:36:42,520
he said, rather, Moses, I suppose, But and he said,

2607
02:36:43,040 --> 02:36:46,079
my presence will go with you, and I will give

2608
02:36:46,120 --> 02:36:48,719
you rest. The same word that is attributed to God

2609
02:36:48,879 --> 02:36:52,479
in excesses thirty three fourteen is used of the Holy

2610
02:36:52,559 --> 02:36:54,520
Spirit in Isaiah Sics three fourteen.

2611
02:36:56,600 --> 02:37:00,200
Speaker 6: Yes, great points, thank you. Yeah. My list was not

2612
02:37:00,760 --> 02:37:03,600
in any way supposed to be comprehensive. I had only

2613
02:37:03,719 --> 02:37:11,200
worked up through the Torah judges and a little bit

2614
02:37:11,280 --> 02:37:13,479
of the Psalms, and so I had not yet gotten

2615
02:37:13,520 --> 02:37:15,920
to there's many in Isaiah. Thank you for that one.

2616
02:37:16,200 --> 02:37:21,600
And Samuel, there's a few in the minor profits, a

2617
02:37:21,719 --> 02:37:23,959
couple in job that I mentioned, But yeah, there's more

2618
02:37:24,159 --> 02:37:25,959
to be had. I just haven't even gotten to them all.

2619
02:37:26,000 --> 02:37:29,159
But thank you for that. Appreciate that, right. Okay, So

2620
02:37:29,479 --> 02:37:31,520
to the people in the chat talking smack again, I

2621
02:37:31,600 --> 02:37:39,079
keep putting the link there for you. So what do

2622
02:37:39,159 --> 02:37:42,040
you mean? Sam does have an X. Sam Shimun is

2623
02:37:42,079 --> 02:37:46,040
on Twitter. He wants to have a round table, So

2624
02:37:46,079 --> 02:37:49,040
I don't know why you're trying to get provoke him

2625
02:37:49,040 --> 02:37:50,520
into debating. I don't care if he wants to come

2626
02:37:50,520 --> 02:37:53,479
here and ask questions. He's welcome to anybody on X

2627
02:37:53,520 --> 02:38:00,840
can pop in here. I don't care. But we're looking

2628
02:38:00,879 --> 02:38:08,840
for people who disagree today review. So if you disagree,

2629
02:38:09,200 --> 02:38:10,559
raise your hand, you come to the head of line.

2630
02:38:11,120 --> 02:38:12,760
Every time we do this, we get a million Orthodox

2631
02:38:12,799 --> 02:38:14,440
people and acquire some cate of cumens who want to

2632
02:38:14,440 --> 02:38:16,920
ask a bunch of questions. And what we're looking for

2633
02:38:17,079 --> 02:38:19,559
is people who disagree want to debate. The topics are

2634
02:38:20,520 --> 02:38:24,440
listed in the top of the stream is the pope,

2635
02:38:24,479 --> 02:38:30,760
heretic Islam, Protestantism, Gnosticism, Hebrew roots. You can also bring

2636
02:38:30,879 --> 02:38:38,959
up the Qur'an, Calvinism, etc. We just spent freaking thirty

2637
02:38:39,000 --> 02:38:44,760
minutes with a Coptic person who literally contradict himself like

2638
02:38:44,799 --> 02:38:47,559
five times and said he's not and it was a

2639
02:38:47,600 --> 02:38:53,520
big nightmare. Review Dickers, that doesn't your connection isn't working.

2640
02:38:55,600 --> 02:39:07,600
Countish Options, what's up? Mm hmm. You gotta unmute, man,

2641
02:39:12,000 --> 02:39:12,760
you have to unmute.

2642
02:39:17,280 --> 02:39:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, sty.

2643
02:39:20,959 --> 02:39:21,399
Speaker 1: Listening to.

2644
02:39:23,920 --> 02:39:24,959
Speaker 6: What's wanting a lot.

2645
02:39:27,399 --> 02:39:28,799
Speaker 7: What I felt?

2646
02:39:30,120 --> 02:39:33,280
Speaker 6: I can't You're you're your accident is so thiate bro.

2647
02:39:33,360 --> 02:39:36,079
I can't understand half of what you're saying. Man, Beacon,

2648
02:39:36,159 --> 02:39:39,639
what's up? Didn't we already go to you? We're looking

2649
02:39:39,639 --> 02:39:41,799
for people disagree, so please don't ask me a bunch

2650
02:39:41,840 --> 02:39:47,000
of inquirer questions like acquirers. You guys can't be lazy.

2651
02:39:47,079 --> 02:39:48,799
You gotta go and read the books and do the

2652
02:39:49,239 --> 02:39:54,479
do the research. It's Stephen Cook five dollars. I always

2653
02:39:54,559 --> 02:39:57,120
enjoyed reading the Cabernet savignan On translation. It is the

2654
02:39:57,840 --> 02:40:02,239
most readable and accessible translation. Snago Beasts five dollars. One

2655
02:40:02,239 --> 02:40:04,200
of the things that easy forgets the demons and angels.

2656
02:40:04,959 --> 02:40:07,879
They aren't created in the metaphysic of time, correct, They're

2657
02:40:08,120 --> 02:40:11,479
in the aon So their choice was in an instant

2658
02:40:12,520 --> 02:40:16,079
and that's why they're not given multiple chances. They do

2659
02:40:16,239 --> 02:40:18,239
not have a nature that varies from day to day.

2660
02:40:18,319 --> 02:40:34,239
As man can go ahead, Are you there, shaba Ranks?

2661
02:40:34,360 --> 02:40:36,120
We got a roster man in the chat. What's up?

2662
02:40:38,719 --> 02:40:40,120
Shaba rank and file? What's up?

2663
02:40:42,520 --> 02:40:42,920
Speaker 7: Yo? Yo?

2664
02:40:44,520 --> 02:40:46,680
Speaker 36: Probably don't have too much to debate with you with

2665
02:40:46,879 --> 02:40:50,600
although I was talking to a Roman Catholic today and

2666
02:40:50,680 --> 02:40:54,239
they mentioned how because I was making the argument with

2667
02:40:54,360 --> 02:40:57,559
him about how and you bring this up as well,

2668
02:40:57,920 --> 02:41:01,639
how the Pope says that we can.

2669
02:41:01,559 --> 02:41:03,559
Speaker 17: Pray alongside Muslims and Jews.

2670
02:41:03,639 --> 02:41:07,120
Speaker 36: And he tried to argue that, well, the Russian Orthodox

2671
02:41:07,280 --> 02:41:09,280
is doing the same thing by you know, trying to

2672
02:41:09,360 --> 02:41:09,840
set up a.

2673
02:41:11,360 --> 02:41:14,639
Speaker 17: You know, a shared space for like a church or

2674
02:41:14,760 --> 02:41:15,719
templar or whatever.

2675
02:41:15,520 --> 02:41:16,639
Speaker 7: It is in Russia.

2676
02:41:18,159 --> 02:41:22,479
Speaker 36: Would you be interested in, like, I guess, given your

2677
02:41:22,559 --> 02:41:25,280
argument for that, I am inquiring an Orthodoxy and I

2678
02:41:25,360 --> 02:41:26,360
think it is different.

2679
02:41:26,520 --> 02:41:28,360
Speaker 7: But what would like you respond to that?

2680
02:41:28,520 --> 02:41:31,360
Speaker 6: Well, even if it's not different, like a patriarch being

2681
02:41:31,399 --> 02:41:34,079
a hairtic is not the equivalent of what Vatican one

2682
02:41:34,159 --> 02:41:36,399
says about the pope and the impossibility of the pope

2683
02:41:36,399 --> 02:41:36,959
being a hairtic.

2684
02:41:38,280 --> 02:41:40,120
Speaker 17: Okay, all right, thank you sir.

2685
02:41:40,399 --> 02:41:45,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I appreciate that. I mean, again, as

2686
02:41:45,360 --> 02:41:48,200
we said the first hour of this talk, it's two

2687
02:41:48,239 --> 02:42:01,840
different systems. Man in the chemo hat. They I mean,

2688
02:42:02,280 --> 02:42:10,000
they just literally can't understand a system defeater. I think

2689
02:42:10,040 --> 02:42:12,280
I I just realized why they don't understand that. They

2690
02:42:12,319 --> 02:42:15,159
don't understand why that's a system defeater because they don't

2691
02:42:15,200 --> 02:42:17,120
know what Vatican one actually says about the pope. That's

2692
02:42:17,159 --> 02:42:20,639
why they don't. They don't understand this. That's I think

2693
02:42:20,680 --> 02:42:23,399
that's finally dawned on me. What's up man?

2694
02:42:25,680 --> 02:42:26,600
Speaker 7: Oh can you hear me?

2695
02:42:28,479 --> 02:42:31,360
Speaker 6: Yes? So to the guy in the chat, Christopher Augustin,

2696
02:42:31,559 --> 02:42:34,399
unblocked me and I will join. I need to know

2697
02:42:34,440 --> 02:42:36,280
you're handled. Unblock you. I don't know. I have like

2698
02:42:36,399 --> 02:42:38,559
a thousand people blocked. Dude, I know idea who you are?

2699
02:42:39,520 --> 02:42:42,200
What's up? Yeah?

2700
02:42:43,040 --> 02:42:44,799
Speaker 32: So I was wondering, have you heard of a guy

2701
02:42:44,920 --> 02:42:48,040
named Grayson Brock I think he is on YouTube?

2702
02:42:48,399 --> 02:42:48,440
Speaker 7: No?

2703
02:42:50,200 --> 02:42:55,680
Speaker 24: Uh, yeah, he's a he's a Protestant guy who is

2704
02:42:55,760 --> 02:42:56,600
a universalist.

2705
02:42:56,639 --> 02:42:59,520
Speaker 17: I guess you could say like he he claims he

2706
02:42:59,639 --> 02:43:02,520
read the Bible in one day, the Quran in one day.

2707
02:43:02,680 --> 02:43:04,959
Speaker 27: And like a bunch of other religious books in one days.

2708
02:43:05,000 --> 02:43:07,479
Speaker 19: And he's like, he's like, well you after I read

2709
02:43:07,520 --> 02:43:09,120
all these books, what do you Okay?

2710
02:43:09,280 --> 02:43:13,200
Speaker 6: So he's just a retard. No, don't have time for retards. Sorry,

2711
02:43:13,959 --> 02:43:16,120
sell By, you didn't read all those books on one day.

2712
02:43:17,440 --> 02:43:30,319
Sell Biology. What's your handling? Unblock you? Dude? Aug twenty eighteen. Okay,

2713
02:43:30,719 --> 02:43:41,840
what's up? Man? Got on mute? Hello? You got on mute?

2714
02:43:53,120 --> 02:43:53,239
Speaker 15: Uh?

2715
02:43:53,559 --> 02:43:56,760
Speaker 6: Tradcat traditional Latin mass enjoy or and he's sharing Pope

2716
02:43:56,760 --> 02:44:06,719
Benedict Bishopstright when, oh, all right, you're on muted or

2717
02:44:06,799 --> 02:44:16,959
you're unblocked whatever your name is, Augie or whatever, Leith,

2718
02:44:23,920 --> 02:44:28,399
you're unblocked, dude Leth, I mean Augie Leith? What's up?

2719
02:44:30,879 --> 02:44:31,440
Speaker 7: What's up there?

2720
02:44:33,959 --> 02:44:35,799
Speaker 37: I just I wanted to see if you could, uh

2721
02:44:36,079 --> 02:44:42,239
like clarify your contention with the like metaphysics in Islam. Okay,

2722
02:44:44,200 --> 02:44:46,680
So from how I like see it and from how

2723
02:44:46,879 --> 02:44:47,920
like I've debated it.

2724
02:44:48,639 --> 02:44:53,040
Speaker 38: Would it be that the essence is dependent on the

2725
02:44:53,159 --> 02:44:56,879
attributes to define it, and that if they're eternal and

2726
02:44:57,040 --> 02:45:01,360
uncreated alongside the essence, then that's why a dependence relationship.

2727
02:45:02,159 --> 02:45:04,440
Speaker 6: Well, that dependence relationship has to do with when they

2728
02:45:04,559 --> 02:45:08,879
say that if the son and the spirit lack a sayety,

2729
02:45:09,040 --> 02:45:11,920
they can't be fully divine because the divinity must have

2730
02:45:14,200 --> 02:45:18,079
a sayity to be divine. And we make the same critique,

2731
02:45:18,120 --> 02:45:21,079
then well, don't you think that the attributes are fully

2732
02:45:21,079 --> 02:45:25,239
Allah even if they're not identical to Allah's essence and

2733
02:45:25,440 --> 02:45:27,559
they are other than Allah. So they have the same

2734
02:45:27,639 --> 02:45:32,280
type of dependence relationship when we talk about the son

2735
02:45:32,360 --> 02:45:35,959
being dependent on the father, that the attributes are dependent

2736
02:45:36,079 --> 02:45:38,760
upon a lot. And so hence the critique and the

2737
02:45:39,280 --> 02:45:43,719
only school that wouldn't work against like a Shia position

2738
02:45:43,799 --> 02:45:45,719
where they don't think there's a real distinction between all

2739
02:45:45,760 --> 02:45:46,479
of his attributes.

2740
02:45:47,600 --> 02:45:48,920
Speaker 7: Okay, that makes sense.

2741
02:45:49,840 --> 02:45:51,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, if you watch the if you watch the debate

2742
02:45:52,000 --> 02:45:54,680
between Jake and doctor bo Branson, the whole debate ends

2743
02:45:54,680 --> 02:45:55,479
of being that question.

2744
02:45:56,559 --> 02:45:57,639
Speaker 17: Okay, sounds good.

2745
02:45:57,840 --> 02:46:05,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a really good debate too. By the way, Augie,

2746
02:46:05,440 --> 02:46:07,079
where are you? I thought you were coming to debate?

2747
02:46:18,040 --> 02:46:20,799
If he doesn't come to Bate. Just ban him. These

2748
02:46:20,840 --> 02:46:33,159
people are disgusting magic Mike, Yeah, God, Yeah.

2749
02:46:33,159 --> 02:46:36,600
Speaker 39: I don't know what happened earlier. I just maybe got disconnected,

2750
02:46:37,040 --> 02:46:38,760
but it was a good talk with you.

2751
02:46:38,920 --> 02:46:39,440
Speaker 6: Thank you for that.

2752
02:46:39,840 --> 02:46:40,639
Speaker 7: I wanted to ask you.

2753
02:46:40,799 --> 02:46:42,040
Speaker 6: I don't know what were you. I don't remember what

2754
02:46:42,079 --> 02:46:42,680
we're talking about.

2755
02:46:44,639 --> 02:46:48,120
Speaker 7: It was like about God and the Trinity and Jesus Christ,

2756
02:46:48,200 --> 02:46:49,440
and so I.

2757
02:46:49,520 --> 02:46:52,719
Speaker 39: Wanted to ask you something, right, so for example in yogi,

2758
02:46:52,760 --> 02:46:57,200
because I'm studying the Bible too, but I didn't Evangelical university.

2759
02:46:57,319 --> 02:47:00,559
Speaker 6: So now you're getting on my nerves. I'm ready to

2760
02:47:00,600 --> 02:47:08,959
move on every What's up? Everything I said? You blew

2761
02:47:09,040 --> 02:47:24,639
past what I said, So that's annoying. Where's Algie? I mean,

2762
02:47:24,680 --> 02:47:29,040
he's sitting here saying he's gonna come to Bait. I'm

2763
02:47:29,120 --> 02:47:33,120
even gonna link him the freaking chat here he is,

2764
02:47:41,879 --> 02:47:44,639
Oh yep, hey Jay.

2765
02:47:44,799 --> 02:47:46,879
Speaker 40: Actually, I don't know if you remember this, but the

2766
02:47:47,120 --> 02:47:49,680
stream where pinesapp kind of went a wall.

2767
02:47:50,200 --> 02:47:52,479
Speaker 15: You and I actually talked for like forty five minutes.

2768
02:47:52,559 --> 02:47:54,079
I had to make an old account. I don't know

2769
02:47:54,079 --> 02:47:55,559
why he had to be blocked one here because we

2770
02:47:55,600 --> 02:47:57,399
didn't actually interact at all.

2771
02:47:58,520 --> 02:48:00,520
Speaker 6: Uh, well, I probably black people talk a lot of

2772
02:48:00,520 --> 02:48:02,760
shit and other comments and places, so you probably like

2773
02:48:02,879 --> 02:48:06,559
some skittles gay crap that I blocked skittles gay. I'm

2774
02:48:06,559 --> 02:48:08,600
not on board with skittles, definitely not on Now I'm

2775
02:48:08,600 --> 02:48:11,360
saying the positions that you liked were gay.

2776
02:48:13,000 --> 02:48:16,079
Speaker 15: I see, Okay, Well, I definitely.

2777
02:48:16,120 --> 02:48:18,040
Speaker 40: I also wanted to say I didn't have a chance

2778
02:48:18,120 --> 02:48:19,719
last time, but I wanted to say I got a

2779
02:48:19,760 --> 02:48:20,520
bone to pick about this.

2780
02:48:20,559 --> 02:48:23,079
Speaker 15: Whole funko pop song. Do you know how long that

2781
02:48:23,239 --> 02:48:24,000
was stuck in my head?

2782
02:48:25,000 --> 02:48:27,600
Speaker 6: Oh that's that's what I do. I fight back in

2783
02:48:27,680 --> 02:48:31,000
a lot of different ways with you guys. And then, well, I.

2784
02:48:31,000 --> 02:48:33,840
Speaker 15: Don't know that I have to do with with us. Actually,

2785
02:48:34,040 --> 02:48:35,159
maybe I missed the point.

2786
02:48:35,239 --> 02:48:37,440
Speaker 6: Then, Yeah, you guys are the funko pop. You track

2787
02:48:37,520 --> 02:48:39,920
cats are literally my embodiment of the funk Now, I'm

2788
02:48:39,920 --> 02:48:41,319
just joking, man, doesn't have to do with you.

2789
02:48:42,799 --> 02:48:45,079
Speaker 17: I really missed that.

2790
02:48:45,239 --> 02:48:45,399
Speaker 7: Then.

2791
02:48:46,079 --> 02:48:48,840
Speaker 15: But last time we did talk about national theology.

2792
02:48:50,079 --> 02:48:52,719
Speaker 40: We talked about that for a good while, and uh,

2793
02:48:53,399 --> 02:48:56,840
I remember when we were talking about that. You know,

2794
02:48:56,959 --> 02:49:01,360
you were running through the argumentation that clearly, Paul, he's

2795
02:49:01,440 --> 02:49:03,079
not talking to these people.

2796
02:49:04,600 --> 02:49:06,520
Speaker 15: Like deep philosophy, and that's what we.

2797
02:49:06,600 --> 02:49:10,719
Speaker 6: Were talking about. Acts seventeen. I kind of remember this, correct, correct, And.

2798
02:49:12,239 --> 02:49:14,280
Speaker 40: Now after we talked, I did go back and I

2799
02:49:14,360 --> 02:49:18,079
looked at it, and it does mention that the philosophers

2800
02:49:18,159 --> 02:49:21,479
were talking to Paul and they were saying like, oh,

2801
02:49:21,760 --> 02:49:24,680
this is uh, this doctrine that you're teaching is completely

2802
02:49:24,719 --> 02:49:28,040
different from us, is completely unknown to us. And that's

2803
02:49:28,079 --> 02:49:31,840
the part that's immediately proceeding when Paul says, oh, you

2804
02:49:32,000 --> 02:49:34,200
men of Athens, I see that you are in all things,

2805
02:49:34,280 --> 02:49:37,360
very religious, et cetera, et cetera. So I was wondering,

2806
02:49:38,000 --> 02:49:41,680
so you said before, you didn't think that he was

2807
02:49:41,879 --> 02:49:44,040
talking about this one like a natural philosophy level. But

2808
02:49:44,840 --> 02:49:47,440
don't you think that him debating with the philosophers, don't

2809
02:49:47,440 --> 02:49:49,360
you think that that kind of points to that?

2810
02:49:49,600 --> 02:49:50,920
Speaker 17: Or what's your potential?

2811
02:49:51,120 --> 02:49:54,120
Speaker 6: I mean, I mean, what what do you guys think?

2812
02:49:54,159 --> 02:49:56,959
What do you think natural theology is? And by the way,

2813
02:49:56,959 --> 02:49:58,959
you're saying natural philosophy, I don't know if that means

2814
02:49:59,000 --> 02:50:01,639
the same thing as what you believe is that I'm

2815
02:50:01,760 --> 02:50:04,399
not natural theologect What do you believe that is in

2816
02:50:04,520 --> 02:50:05,040
your tradition.

2817
02:50:06,520 --> 02:50:09,399
Speaker 40: Well, as far as my understanding, and by new means

2818
02:50:10,479 --> 02:50:13,000
an expert, but as far as I've understood, it's that

2819
02:50:14,040 --> 02:50:17,440
we can that there's certain things that we can know

2820
02:50:17,600 --> 02:50:19,879
through reason alone, apart from revelation about God.

2821
02:50:20,399 --> 02:50:23,239
Speaker 6: Yeah. Correct, that's the that's your definition of it, correct,

2822
02:50:23,239 --> 02:50:27,040
that's the John Paul used that definition. Protestants use that

2823
02:50:27,200 --> 02:50:29,280
so correct. Just make sure we mean the same thing.

2824
02:50:29,959 --> 02:50:34,440
Speaker 40: Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry I spoke earlier, but yeah. So

2825
02:50:34,680 --> 02:50:39,200
I think that him talking with the people, the philosophers

2826
02:50:39,239 --> 02:50:42,760
of Athens, and then immediately following that, obviously it's you

2827
02:50:42,840 --> 02:50:43,559
know whoever.

2828
02:50:44,840 --> 02:50:47,440
Speaker 15: It's it's a luke I believe who compiled acts. Correct,

2829
02:50:48,319 --> 02:50:51,959
So he's telling the story. Uh, And I think that

2830
02:50:52,159 --> 02:50:56,680
the fact that that that narrative is following in such

2831
02:50:56,680 --> 02:50:56,879
a way.

2832
02:50:56,879 --> 02:50:59,840
Speaker 40: He's talking with the philosophers of Athens and then he's

2833
02:50:59,840 --> 02:51:02,360
in immediately saying, are you men of Athens? I see

2834
02:51:02,399 --> 02:51:05,840
that you are all, in all things, very religious, don't

2835
02:51:05,959 --> 02:51:07,159
I mean, do you see the connection there?

2836
02:51:07,200 --> 02:51:08,920
Speaker 15: I'm wondering what your tagees.

2837
02:51:10,719 --> 02:51:12,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, but I mean my point has always been on

2838
02:51:13,000 --> 02:51:16,879
this passage that he says, the one whom you worship

2839
02:51:16,959 --> 02:51:19,200
without knowing is the one I proclaimed to you. And

2840
02:51:19,600 --> 02:51:22,079
the whole argument of natural theology is that, well, they

2841
02:51:22,120 --> 02:51:26,239
do know him because they've reason to get attributes about God. Correct,

2842
02:51:26,920 --> 02:51:29,600
But he says you don't know him. He's the unknown God,

2843
02:51:30,479 --> 02:51:31,319
so they don't know him.

2844
02:51:33,719 --> 02:51:35,479
Speaker 15: I mean, he says what you worship in error and then.

2845
02:51:38,159 --> 02:51:41,760
Speaker 6: Errorlaim it says what you worship without knowing. I proclaim

2846
02:51:41,840 --> 02:51:42,959
to you the unknown God.

2847
02:51:43,760 --> 02:51:46,520
Speaker 40: So is it not worshiping or I means it seems

2848
02:51:46,680 --> 02:51:48,559
I'm not trying to be like, uh, you know, I

2849
02:51:48,639 --> 02:51:49,079
guess they were.

2850
02:51:49,159 --> 02:51:51,200
Speaker 15: Actually that I say, it says worship.

2851
02:51:51,399 --> 02:51:53,520
Speaker 17: It seems to me that that that is important, you

2852
02:51:53,600 --> 02:51:54,000
know what I mean?

2853
02:51:54,120 --> 02:51:57,280
Speaker 6: Okay, So if I worship a stick and I think

2854
02:51:57,399 --> 02:51:59,639
that stick is the one God? Am I worshiping the

2855
02:51:59,680 --> 02:52:01,600
same as you as a Catholic because you believe in

2856
02:52:01,680 --> 02:52:04,239
one God too, I.

2857
02:52:04,239 --> 02:52:07,360
Speaker 40: Wouldn't say, well it I think that when you're talking

2858
02:52:07,360 --> 02:52:09,559
about idols and you're talking about it, you know it's

2859
02:52:09,719 --> 02:52:11,520
the creator according.

2860
02:52:11,159 --> 02:52:15,399
Speaker 6: To Do you not know that this is an idol

2861
02:52:15,479 --> 02:52:17,840
where they have an altar to the unknown God. This

2862
02:52:18,040 --> 02:52:19,120
is exactly what you just said.

2863
02:52:20,079 --> 02:52:22,719
Speaker 40: Yeah, So the way I've understood that is that they're

2864
02:52:22,719 --> 02:52:24,959
actually so it's a temple, but there's no idol to

2865
02:52:25,120 --> 02:52:27,360
the god because it's to an unknown.

2866
02:52:27,040 --> 02:52:30,719
Speaker 6: No, that's totally false, he says later, that you attribute

2867
02:52:31,040 --> 02:52:35,760
to the divine nature an idol, a created idle image.

2868
02:52:35,799 --> 02:52:37,120
He says it in verse twenty nine.

2869
02:52:40,280 --> 02:52:42,799
Speaker 40: Why I didn't necessarily take it that it was talking

2870
02:52:42,840 --> 02:52:45,000
about a specific idol in that temple. I thought that

2871
02:52:45,120 --> 02:52:47,079
was more of a generic So you people in general,

2872
02:52:47,200 --> 02:52:48,840
you do these things in your worship.

2873
02:52:49,120 --> 02:52:53,239
Speaker 6: Therefore, here we go with the typical casuistri. Right, So

2874
02:52:54,280 --> 02:52:56,920
Paul is again saying, you're in you're all under the

2875
02:52:56,959 --> 02:52:59,280
class of people who attribute to the divine nature of

2876
02:52:59,360 --> 02:53:02,520
being a created datus. So, no, they're not. They're not

2877
02:53:02,719 --> 02:53:06,200
unique idolators who think that this God cannot be imaged

2878
02:53:06,760 --> 02:53:09,360
because the altar is an inscription to the unknown God.

2879
02:53:09,479 --> 02:53:11,680
And he accuses them of being idol The whole point

2880
02:53:11,680 --> 02:53:15,120
of the passages is their idolators. They're not. They're not

2881
02:53:15,239 --> 02:53:17,959
pagan non idolators here, which is what you're trying to say.

2882
02:53:18,920 --> 02:53:20,719
Speaker 40: Well, I would just say, even in the case of

2883
02:53:20,760 --> 02:53:23,040
this stick, I would say that obviously the stick isn't God.

2884
02:53:23,120 --> 02:53:26,319
But they're they're just applying divine attributes to the sticks,

2885
02:53:26,319 --> 02:53:27,639
and they're correct by the divine mutes.

2886
02:53:27,719 --> 02:53:30,879
Speaker 6: No they're not. No, that's a flat out contradiction. So

2887
02:53:31,120 --> 02:53:35,200
how can is so if I call this this pen omniscient,

2888
02:53:35,680 --> 02:53:38,959
does that mean that well, I actually mean God the Father,

2889
02:53:39,120 --> 02:53:40,319
but I'm just mistaking it.

2890
02:53:40,319 --> 02:53:42,719
Speaker 17: For this pen And I wouldn't say it in that way.

2891
02:53:42,719 --> 02:53:44,239
Speaker 15: I would just say that if you say that, like,

2892
02:53:44,319 --> 02:53:47,840
there is this one God, he has this this attribute,

2893
02:53:47,959 --> 02:53:50,440
and this God is this stick, what's Well, the part

2894
02:53:50,520 --> 02:53:52,000
that is an error.

2895
02:53:51,879 --> 02:53:54,879
Speaker 17: There is that that God is obviously not that stick.

2896
02:53:55,319 --> 02:53:58,559
Speaker 6: No, there's more error, is the point. And the point

2897
02:53:58,639 --> 02:54:03,120
is that there's no one lowest common denominator list of

2898
02:54:03,159 --> 02:54:07,360
attributes that tells you the Unitarian God. That's the error.

2899
02:54:08,200 --> 02:54:11,520
Speaker 40: I gotta uh, it's it seems unrelated. But there was

2900
02:54:11,600 --> 02:54:14,719
a there was on Twitter today there was some talk

2901
02:54:14,920 --> 02:54:19,000
about Wagner. He posted something where where he was talking

2902
02:54:19,000 --> 02:54:21,879
about how if if like the Pope came out.

2903
02:54:21,840 --> 02:54:23,440
Speaker 15: Tomorrow when he said something heretical.

2904
02:54:24,159 --> 02:54:26,280
Speaker 40: Uh, somebody said something like, oh, would you just convert

2905
02:54:26,280 --> 02:54:29,920
to Orthodox And He's like, well, obviously no, because I

2906
02:54:30,120 --> 02:54:31,920
think I believe in Catholicism.

2907
02:54:32,000 --> 02:54:34,280
Speaker 15: And if Catholics is more to be proven untrue, I

2908
02:54:34,280 --> 02:54:37,239
would I would like go off and I don't know

2909
02:54:37,280 --> 02:54:38,520
what I would believe in at that point.

2910
02:54:38,600 --> 02:54:42,079
Speaker 40: And I think truly I was in there saying like, oh,

2911
02:54:42,760 --> 02:54:44,959
these people, you know, they they would abandon Jesus.

2912
02:54:45,239 --> 02:54:47,959
Speaker 6: So you guys would rather than admit that orthodox is true,

2913
02:54:48,000 --> 02:54:49,959
you guys would go be atheists. I think that says

2914
02:54:50,000 --> 02:54:50,239
a lot.

2915
02:54:51,719 --> 02:54:52,520
Speaker 17: I'm not saying.

2916
02:54:53,479 --> 02:54:55,200
Speaker 40: What I was getting at though, is is I think

2917
02:54:55,280 --> 02:54:58,360
that it's kind of, uh, in a roundabout way. I

2918
02:54:58,360 --> 02:55:01,000
think it's almost you're taking like a low common denominator

2919
02:55:01,079 --> 02:55:03,559
Christianity where it's like, oh, like the question it would

2920
02:55:03,559 --> 02:55:06,040
be like if Orthodoxy was fake, would either be like

2921
02:55:06,079 --> 02:55:08,799
a Protestant then like if Abosolic tradition was like you know,

2922
02:55:08,840 --> 02:55:12,799
if the Orthodox Church had a council and came and uh,

2923
02:55:13,159 --> 02:55:13,479
you know that.

2924
02:55:13,520 --> 02:55:15,000
Speaker 6: They what does any of this have to do with

2925
02:55:15,120 --> 02:55:17,719
natural theology? Is the lowest common denominator? I don't understand.

2926
02:55:18,360 --> 02:55:20,399
Speaker 40: Well, so because it seems like it's like, oh, well,

2927
02:55:20,559 --> 02:55:23,239
if if Orthodoxy is not true, well you know, I

2928
02:55:23,360 --> 02:55:26,520
still you know, worship this sort of general idea of

2929
02:55:27,399 --> 02:55:29,360
Christ according to like a general so it just.

2930
02:55:29,360 --> 02:55:30,959
Speaker 6: Has nothing to do with what's true or false. You're

2931
02:55:31,000 --> 02:55:33,559
talking about what random Twitter people are saying. How does

2932
02:55:33,600 --> 02:55:36,360
this translate to the lowest anything to do with natural

2933
02:55:36,399 --> 02:55:37,879
theology's lowest common denominator?

2934
02:55:39,159 --> 02:55:41,840
Speaker 40: I'm I'm I was wondering if you had a specific

2935
02:55:41,879 --> 02:55:43,799
take on that. I wasn't trying to go completely off topic,

2936
02:55:43,840 --> 02:55:45,680
but my point was that it seems like there is

2937
02:55:45,799 --> 02:55:48,440
this sort of there was a sort of admission there

2938
02:55:48,520 --> 02:55:50,719
that there is this there's like a low and what's

2939
02:55:50,760 --> 02:55:52,319
coming down denominator Christianity.

2940
02:55:52,360 --> 02:55:54,559
Speaker 6: If my part, I mean, I don't know what Craig

2941
02:55:54,719 --> 02:55:56,520
is arguing. I have no idea what you're talking about.

2942
02:55:56,760 --> 02:55:59,399
So okay, all right about I just make the clear

2943
02:55:59,479 --> 02:56:02,120
point that what are the lowest common nominator attributes? And

2944
02:56:02,159 --> 02:56:02,520
how do you know?

2945
02:56:04,879 --> 02:56:06,840
Speaker 15: I think that we would have to look to scripture and.

2946
02:56:07,079 --> 02:56:11,120
Speaker 6: No, no lowest common nominator attributes means natural theology. That

2947
02:56:11,200 --> 02:56:12,239
means no looking to scripture.

2948
02:56:13,879 --> 02:56:17,719
Speaker 40: Okay, but you were saying that last time we spoke,

2949
02:56:18,479 --> 02:56:20,879
I said, well, it seems like you would have to

2950
02:56:20,920 --> 02:56:25,840
say that there are anybody who misunderstands God would would

2951
02:56:25,840 --> 02:56:26,600
not be worshiping you out.

2952
02:56:26,639 --> 02:56:28,840
Speaker 15: You said, no, that there's you don't have to understand everything,

2953
02:56:29,000 --> 02:56:32,200
but there's a certain criteria that you have to you

2954
02:56:32,360 --> 02:56:34,719
have to believe in to be to call yourself, you know,

2955
02:56:34,799 --> 02:56:37,520
to be truly worshiping God. Is that a mischaracterization of

2956
02:56:37,559 --> 02:56:39,239
what you said, No, there have to be.

2957
02:56:39,479 --> 02:56:41,719
Speaker 6: That doesn't mean there's a lowest common nominator because it's

2958
02:56:41,719 --> 02:56:44,120
a set of beliefs. So there's a difference between a

2959
02:56:44,239 --> 02:56:47,399
set and that if you deny one of that set,

2960
02:56:47,639 --> 02:56:51,079
that you no longer have the correct reference. That's there's

2961
02:56:51,079 --> 02:56:53,239
a differ between that and saying that I'm saying there's

2962
02:56:53,239 --> 02:56:55,520
the lowest common nominator. I'm saying it's a holistic set.

2963
02:56:56,000 --> 02:57:00,280
So for example, all of the attributes that are hold

2964
02:57:00,399 --> 02:57:03,399
to us about God are necessary. So for example, if

2965
02:57:03,440 --> 02:57:06,079
I remove one of those, which is an essential attribute

2966
02:57:06,159 --> 02:57:09,639
or one of those key components, then I don't have

2967
02:57:09,760 --> 02:57:13,200
the same reference anymore. This is why a Mormon and

2968
02:57:13,280 --> 02:57:16,159
a Muslim and a Eunomian don't have the same God

2969
02:57:16,319 --> 02:57:19,440
in the tradition of the church. That that proves the point,

2970
02:57:19,520 --> 02:57:22,040
that's the point of the Garibee paper is that think

2971
02:57:22,120 --> 02:57:26,000
about card games, so's there's certain things that are in

2972
02:57:26,079 --> 02:57:30,879
common between poker and playing GoFish. They have cards in common,

2973
02:57:31,280 --> 02:57:35,000
they have hands in common. Both games have rules, so

2974
02:57:35,120 --> 02:57:36,920
the having of rules is something they have in common.

2975
02:57:36,959 --> 02:57:38,639
They don't have the same rules, but they have rules

2976
02:57:38,680 --> 02:57:42,040
in common. Right, But that doesn't mean we wouldn't conclude

2977
02:57:42,079 --> 02:57:45,239
from that because of those overlaps in commonalities that there's

2978
02:57:45,280 --> 02:57:48,760
a lowest common denominator card game that is neither go

2979
02:57:48,959 --> 02:57:51,840
fish nor poker. Do you agree?

2980
02:57:53,719 --> 02:57:53,840
Speaker 7: Uh?

2981
02:57:54,120 --> 02:57:56,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I okay. So in the same way

2982
02:57:57,000 --> 02:58:00,239
Garibi argues in the paper that there's no lowest and

2983
02:58:00,239 --> 02:58:03,760
the nominator set of attributes that gets you the deity

2984
02:58:03,840 --> 02:58:07,440
that isn't specifically Christianity, Islam or Judaism, but is the

2985
02:58:08,079 --> 02:58:12,239
common deity that if that's true, that refutes natural theology.

2986
02:58:13,959 --> 02:58:14,159
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2987
02:58:14,239 --> 02:58:16,600
Speaker 15: See, the thing is is that I don't think that

2988
02:58:16,639 --> 02:58:19,680
there's like a generic God in that sense.

2989
02:58:19,719 --> 02:58:21,719
Speaker 6: Then you're not a proponent of natural theology.

2990
02:58:22,479 --> 02:58:24,399
Speaker 40: Well, no, because the last time we talked about this,

2991
02:58:24,680 --> 02:58:26,680
I talked about how I thought that Trent the way

2992
02:58:26,719 --> 02:58:30,000
he spoke about, for example, saying like it's basically is

2993
02:58:30,040 --> 02:58:32,440
like he completely ignore the theophanies. He basically said, like,

2994
02:58:32,479 --> 02:58:34,840
oh you know, Abraham, he worshiped with this Unitarian God.

2995
02:58:35,319 --> 02:58:37,440
We don't have to hold that position, and that's that's

2996
02:58:37,799 --> 02:58:38,600
he happened to hold that.

2997
02:58:38,799 --> 02:58:40,440
Speaker 17: But that's not something I hold well.

2998
02:58:40,280 --> 02:58:42,520
Speaker 6: I mean, every natural theology proponent believes that. So how

2999
02:58:42,559 --> 02:58:43,239
do you not believe that?

3000
02:58:44,479 --> 02:58:47,479
Speaker 15: Well, I mean it depends on what you mean. I

3001
02:58:47,639 --> 02:58:50,360
don't think that that Abraham necessarily knew every little.

3002
02:58:51,239 --> 02:58:53,719
Speaker 6: Now you're confusing that what. So again, remember what you

3003
02:58:53,840 --> 02:58:57,000
define natural theology as at the beginning, right, It's what,

3004
02:58:57,239 --> 02:59:00,520
for example, uh Aquinas does in the Simil Countridge Telays,

3005
02:59:00,879 --> 02:59:03,280
which is that he uses the self evident principles of

3006
02:59:03,360 --> 02:59:08,879
philosophy to delineate what an absolutely simple, a temporal, uncaused

3007
02:59:09,120 --> 02:59:14,799
essence that is one must be. That's natural theology correct.

3008
02:59:15,719 --> 02:59:17,600
Speaker 40: But I'm not saying that there's like that there is

3009
02:59:18,120 --> 02:59:20,120
so as a Christian, as a Catholic, I believe that

3010
02:59:20,159 --> 02:59:23,280
there is only that there is only one God and

3011
02:59:23,399 --> 02:59:25,520
he has the instributes that he has and people.

3012
02:59:25,520 --> 02:59:27,959
Speaker 6: So you're missing the whole point again. Do you what

3013
02:59:28,159 --> 02:59:30,639
I don't know? I mean, do you guys not understand

3014
02:59:30,840 --> 02:59:31,879
like what's going on here?

3015
02:59:32,639 --> 02:59:32,680
Speaker 7: Like?

3016
02:59:33,000 --> 02:59:35,520
Speaker 6: Do you you don't understand and understand how arbitrary that is.

3017
02:59:37,799 --> 02:59:38,280
Speaker 17: Help me out.

3018
02:59:38,719 --> 02:59:41,000
Speaker 6: Okay, So did you hear you said that you were

3019
02:59:41,000 --> 02:59:43,239
talking about when I debated with Pintsapp? Was that the

3020
02:59:43,280 --> 02:59:46,559
same stream or something I don't remember? Is that we talk? Okay?

3021
02:59:46,600 --> 02:59:48,239
Do you remember what I was asking Pine Sap or

3022
02:59:48,280 --> 02:59:49,319
do you want me to refresh you on that?

3023
02:59:50,120 --> 02:59:50,319
Speaker 17: Well?

3024
02:59:51,879 --> 02:59:54,040
Speaker 15: From what I remember, you guys were talking about the

3025
02:59:54,120 --> 02:59:55,479
papacy if I.

3026
02:59:55,639 --> 02:59:58,159
Speaker 6: Remember, No, No, we're talking about epistemology. So let me

3027
02:59:58,239 --> 03:00:00,120
refresh you all restate that what I was saying is

3028
03:00:00,159 --> 03:00:02,920
that this is what natural theology is ultimately boiling down to, Like,

3029
03:00:04,079 --> 03:00:09,760
how do you know what the essential divine attributes are

3030
03:00:10,040 --> 03:00:14,079
apart from divine revelation in your Roman Catholic epistemology?

3031
03:00:16,239 --> 03:00:19,680
Speaker 40: So I would if I'm just breaking it down as

3032
03:00:19,959 --> 03:00:22,719
there's some things that you can know about God apart

3033
03:00:22,840 --> 03:00:26,000
from revelation. Right, So if you're if you're mentioning some

3034
03:00:26,120 --> 03:00:29,559
attributes of God, if you're knowing things about God apart

3035
03:00:29,559 --> 03:00:32,680
from revelation, then you're simply doing that, right.

3036
03:00:33,639 --> 03:00:34,879
Speaker 6: How do you how do you know what they are?

3037
03:00:35,520 --> 03:00:36,159
List some of them?

3038
03:00:36,239 --> 03:00:36,360
Speaker 10: Tell?

3039
03:00:36,440 --> 03:00:37,600
Speaker 6: How do you know that those are the ones that

3040
03:00:37,639 --> 03:00:38,159
are essential?

3041
03:00:41,040 --> 03:00:41,239
Speaker 17: Yeah?

3042
03:00:41,239 --> 03:00:43,600
Speaker 15: I guess that I see what you mean in the

3043
03:00:43,680 --> 03:00:45,440
sense of that that could become arbitrary.

3044
03:00:45,840 --> 03:00:46,159
Speaker 7: I do it.

3045
03:00:46,239 --> 03:00:47,840
Speaker 6: It is arbitrary. How do you know?

3046
03:00:49,079 --> 03:00:49,120
Speaker 15: So?

3047
03:00:49,239 --> 03:00:52,959
Speaker 6: In other words, you have to start with the tonistic, medieval,

3048
03:00:53,040 --> 03:00:59,879
scholastic metaphysic of natural philosophy, self evident axioms, first principles.

3049
03:01:00,440 --> 03:01:02,239
Why am I supposed to start with those? And by

3050
03:01:02,280 --> 03:01:04,280
the way, it isn't your natural theology then relying on

3051
03:01:04,680 --> 03:01:07,719
these metaphysical principles, How do we know that those are

3052
03:01:07,760 --> 03:01:08,079
the case?

3053
03:01:10,280 --> 03:01:12,760
Speaker 15: Yeah, I'm not an expert in that.

3054
03:01:13,319 --> 03:01:16,680
Speaker 6: Well, so the whole system is a presupposed classical foundationalist

3055
03:01:16,760 --> 03:01:20,040
epistemology that just asserts all these things, and anybody who

3056
03:01:20,520 --> 03:01:23,159
calls these things into question, the whole thing collapses. Why

3057
03:01:23,200 --> 03:01:26,639
am I supposed to start with that? This is what

3058
03:01:26,719 --> 03:01:28,200
I asked Tim Gordon the other day, because Tim and

3059
03:01:28,239 --> 03:01:30,399
I were going back and forth in DMS about natural

3060
03:01:30,479 --> 03:01:33,760
theology and its starting points, and I'm like, the reason

3061
03:01:33,840 --> 03:01:37,079
that Vatican Two, in those documents is saying that Muslims

3062
03:01:37,120 --> 03:01:39,360
and Christians and Jews all worship the same God is

3063
03:01:39,440 --> 03:01:42,959
because of the assumptions of natural theology and the metaphysical

3064
03:01:43,120 --> 03:01:46,559
just givens we're supposed to know, oh well, clearly, obviously,

3065
03:01:47,120 --> 03:01:52,120
the one true God is absolutely simple, a temporal, uncreated,

3066
03:01:52,440 --> 03:01:56,879
uncaused outside of time and space, non composite. Blah blah blah,

3067
03:01:57,840 --> 03:02:00,520
says who I mean, this is so arbitrary, And if

3068
03:02:00,559 --> 03:02:03,159
you read the Garabye paper like like, he literally just

3069
03:02:03,360 --> 03:02:11,159
destroys swinburn the thumis by just savaging this completely arbitrary nonsense. Like,

3070
03:02:11,639 --> 03:02:13,079
I mean, if you can come to the debate and

3071
03:02:13,159 --> 03:02:15,840
just assert all those things, what's stopping me from coming

3072
03:02:15,879 --> 03:02:18,040
to the table and saying, oh, well, my natural theology

3073
03:02:18,200 --> 03:02:19,360
is the opposite of all those things.

3074
03:02:21,479 --> 03:02:24,280
Speaker 15: So how do you think that, like, for example, the

3075
03:02:24,360 --> 03:02:27,000
law of non contradiction, that sort of thing would play

3076
03:02:27,040 --> 03:02:28,159
in here because.

3077
03:02:28,079 --> 03:02:31,000
Speaker 6: I had some I mean, I believe those those are

3078
03:02:31,000 --> 03:02:32,840
first principles. But that's why we go to tag and

3079
03:02:32,879 --> 03:02:34,200
say that, how do I know that? How do I

3080
03:02:34,319 --> 03:02:40,680
know what the self evident principles are? So do you

3081
03:02:40,760 --> 03:02:42,520
have a do you have a divine list of the

3082
03:02:42,520 --> 03:02:43,559
self evident principles?

3083
03:02:48,319 --> 03:02:50,840
Speaker 17: I mean, how would you answer that question?

3084
03:02:50,920 --> 03:02:53,639
Speaker 6: There is no answer to it. That's why there's no

3085
03:02:53,680 --> 03:02:55,760
such thing as naturally This is the point. Natural theology

3086
03:02:55,760 --> 03:02:57,520
doesn't work if you can be arbitr or I could

3087
03:02:57,520 --> 03:02:59,840
be arbitry. So are you familiar with that? Are familiar

3088
03:02:59,840 --> 03:03:00,719
with the criterion problem?

3089
03:03:02,440 --> 03:03:02,559
Speaker 17: Now?

3090
03:03:02,840 --> 03:03:06,120
Speaker 6: Okay, So the criterion problem is if you think that

3091
03:03:06,280 --> 03:03:09,639
you have knowledge whatever it is, let's say it's first

3092
03:03:09,680 --> 03:03:13,559
principles whatever, that assumes that criteria of knowledge, right, a

3093
03:03:13,639 --> 03:03:16,840
criteria of pistemology. But to have a criteria of pistemology

3094
03:03:16,879 --> 03:03:20,719
assumes knowledge, So you can't have knowledge of the criteria,

3095
03:03:20,760 --> 03:03:22,840
and you can't have a criteria without having knowledge of

3096
03:03:22,920 --> 03:03:27,319
the criteria. So there's an insoluble dilemma for any foundationalist

3097
03:03:27,440 --> 03:03:30,399
or any classical foundationalists of pistemology. And the reason for

3098
03:03:30,479 --> 03:03:32,760
this is that you guys just haven't caught up with

3099
03:03:32,879 --> 03:03:34,760
the last five hundred years. You guys are living in

3100
03:03:34,799 --> 03:03:37,399
the Middle Ages as if no one has done anything,

3101
03:03:37,879 --> 03:03:41,319
and everything post Middle Ages is all atheist and bad.

3102
03:03:42,120 --> 03:03:44,920
There's a lot of atheists. But that's a genetic fallacy.

3103
03:03:45,319 --> 03:03:47,360
So when are you, Thomas going to get with the

3104
03:03:47,479 --> 03:03:50,399
last five six hundred years of philosophical debate and realize

3105
03:03:50,440 --> 03:03:52,840
that people have actually asked good questions. And that's why

3106
03:03:52,920 --> 03:03:54,879
you guys don't do very good against atheist and debates.

3107
03:03:57,159 --> 03:04:03,399
Speaker 15: So, okay, So if you, for example, when I, uh,

3108
03:04:04,559 --> 03:04:06,280
I had some Mormons actually coming to my door.

3109
03:04:06,520 --> 03:04:08,319
Speaker 17: Oddly enough, I had been waiting for that for a while.

3110
03:04:08,360 --> 03:04:09,680
Speaker 6: Now you want to go to Mormons. We're not going

3111
03:04:09,760 --> 03:04:12,440
to tell you what I thought. We're homology, natural theology,

3112
03:04:12,440 --> 03:04:13,079
and pistemology.

3113
03:04:14,319 --> 03:04:14,600
Speaker 7: I was.

3114
03:04:14,799 --> 03:04:17,440
Speaker 15: It seems unrelated. But the point was that the Mormons

3115
03:04:17,479 --> 03:04:20,520
were coming to talk, and it's like, well, you know,

3116
03:04:20,719 --> 03:04:22,079
They're like, oh, you want to become Mormon.

3117
03:04:22,120 --> 03:04:24,120
Speaker 40: I'm like, well no, because I can write off Mormon

3118
03:04:24,200 --> 03:04:32,920
immediately because you polytheism is nonsensical, right, So would you

3119
03:04:33,000 --> 03:04:35,559
disagree with that, like that that you can't that the

3120
03:04:35,600 --> 03:04:39,200
one person couldn't, through reason alone, come to the conclusion

3121
03:04:39,239 --> 03:04:41,280
that polytheism is nonsensical, or.

3122
03:04:42,440 --> 03:04:44,680
Speaker 6: How I mean, only on the assumption that there is

3123
03:04:44,840 --> 03:04:47,719
one cause who's absolutely am Only on the assumption of

3124
03:04:47,799 --> 03:04:49,840
all the I mean, okay, maybe it is, but why

3125
03:04:50,399 --> 03:04:52,879
and if you're going to start appealing to these other things,

3126
03:04:53,719 --> 03:04:56,360
how are the all those things also self evident? So

3127
03:04:56,399 --> 03:04:59,319
I think you're missing the point of Like, I don't

3128
03:04:59,360 --> 03:05:03,200
disagree with the fact that we can do apologetics and

3129
03:05:03,239 --> 03:05:07,399
review positions, but if your argument is well, it's all

3130
03:05:07,479 --> 03:05:10,239
built on things that are self evident and that are

3131
03:05:10,399 --> 03:05:13,399
just arbitrary. Well, these are obviously the starting points. How

3132
03:05:13,440 --> 03:05:15,920
do you know that? Why should I accept your arbitrary

3133
03:05:15,920 --> 03:05:18,200
list of the starting points? What's the basis for that?

3134
03:05:19,079 --> 03:05:22,120
Speaker 15: I'm trying to understand. So do you arguing I basically

3135
03:05:22,159 --> 03:05:24,799
may be the argument from the unmoved mover to them

3136
03:05:25,000 --> 03:05:26,120
to try and you know, because.

3137
03:05:26,639 --> 03:05:29,120
Speaker 6: You're missing the point like why why am I supposed

3138
03:05:29,159 --> 03:05:31,079
to accept that as the starting point?

3139
03:05:31,760 --> 03:05:34,040
Speaker 15: Well, I'm asking you where where did I er there?

3140
03:05:34,479 --> 03:05:36,559
Speaker 6: How do you know that you can start with the

3141
03:05:36,680 --> 03:05:38,840
unmoved mover as your starting point in epistemology?

3142
03:05:40,120 --> 03:05:44,920
Speaker 15: Well because of the uh yeah, the first principle is obviously.

3143
03:05:44,639 --> 03:05:47,360
Speaker 6: So that's okay. So wait a minute. So that's a

3144
03:05:47,440 --> 03:05:52,399
first principle love of causality that I think. Okay, So again,

3145
03:05:52,440 --> 03:05:54,799
now you're just asserting the metaphysical positions that are in question.

3146
03:05:54,879 --> 03:05:56,840
How do you know that causality is a first principle?

3147
03:05:59,360 --> 03:06:02,920
Speaker 17: Yeah, I mean I could. I mean, this seems that

3148
03:06:03,000 --> 03:06:03,879
this is sort of a.

3149
03:06:03,920 --> 03:06:07,399
Speaker 6: Human absolutely, it is absolutely human.

3150
03:06:07,520 --> 03:06:08,639
Speaker 17: Yeah, and I'm not seeing that.

3151
03:06:09,079 --> 03:06:12,559
Speaker 15: I know that you've mentioned human before, of course, but

3152
03:06:12,920 --> 03:06:15,200
and then CON tries to reason out of that, and

3153
03:06:15,440 --> 03:06:19,159
it's just Con has nothing to do with it. He

3154
03:06:19,639 --> 03:06:21,680
attempted to come up with solutions, but the CON.

3155
03:06:21,680 --> 03:06:24,319
Speaker 6: Has nothing to do with this objection, which is an

3156
03:06:24,360 --> 03:06:27,680
objection to self evident first principles from David Hume and

3157
03:06:27,719 --> 03:06:28,559
other skeptics.

3158
03:06:29,159 --> 03:06:31,079
Speaker 15: So I help me understand how you would how you

3159
03:06:31,120 --> 03:06:31,680
would go about it.

3160
03:06:31,719 --> 03:06:35,680
Speaker 6: I'm not a classical foundationless. I'm saying that's what this is,

3161
03:06:35,719 --> 03:06:36,600
what tag is all about.

3162
03:06:36,600 --> 03:06:39,680
Speaker 15: Bro, I'm not like saying there.

3163
03:06:39,719 --> 03:06:42,600
Speaker 6: Is no answer to these things. There is no solving

3164
03:06:43,239 --> 03:06:46,600
on a secular humanist route. That's why we believe in

3165
03:06:46,639 --> 03:06:49,719
a revelational epistemology because these are all dead ends and

3166
03:06:49,840 --> 03:06:54,360
you can't avoid the arbitrariness of saying, here's my give me,

3167
03:06:54,440 --> 03:06:56,639
grant me these metaphysics and I'll prove you my position.

3168
03:06:57,239 --> 03:06:58,959
Why should I accept those metaphysics?

3169
03:07:00,600 --> 03:07:03,000
Speaker 15: So what things do you would you say that that

3170
03:07:03,159 --> 03:07:04,879
have to be granted to know things?

3171
03:07:05,079 --> 03:07:07,520
Speaker 6: There's all kinds of things that there is no there

3172
03:07:07,600 --> 03:07:10,639
is no basic set of things that's self evident. And

3173
03:07:10,799 --> 03:07:12,440
then you look, I could give you another way to

3174
03:07:12,479 --> 03:07:14,000
show this, which is that do you think that some

3175
03:07:14,079 --> 03:07:15,440
things are self evident and some aren't.

3176
03:07:18,440 --> 03:07:20,399
Speaker 17: I don't even know how I would answer that question, right.

3177
03:07:20,319 --> 03:07:22,399
Speaker 6: So the list the answer would have to be if

3178
03:07:22,399 --> 03:07:24,760
you foundationalists, yeah, some things are self evident, many or

3179
03:07:24,799 --> 03:07:28,200
not many other things are inferential. Okay, Well, is the

3180
03:07:28,639 --> 03:07:31,040
differentiation between the things that are self evident the ones

3181
03:07:31,079 --> 03:07:33,719
that are not? Is that self evident? You see, it's

3182
03:07:33,719 --> 03:07:37,559
another begging the question. It's just like in the trend debate,

3183
03:07:37,719 --> 03:07:41,639
like there's just no, there's no it's there's no self

3184
03:07:41,680 --> 03:07:44,280
evident principles that you allow you to build a system

3185
03:07:44,799 --> 03:07:47,840
that aren't arbitrary. And the point of tag is that

3186
03:07:48,040 --> 03:07:51,479
nobody can get out of this. Everybody's systems are ultimately

3187
03:07:51,600 --> 03:07:57,040
recursive and self referencing at the starting point. That's why

3188
03:07:57,239 --> 03:07:59,639
what grounds a position is the worldview as a whole,

3189
03:08:00,159 --> 03:08:02,879
and not some random thing that Aristotle thinks as a

3190
03:08:02,920 --> 03:08:03,559
first principle.

3191
03:08:05,479 --> 03:08:08,719
Speaker 40: I mean, so obviously we're not completely detached from revelation,

3192
03:08:09,639 --> 03:08:12,719
and I think that we're sort of we're ground these

3193
03:08:12,799 --> 03:08:13,680
principles are inside.

3194
03:08:13,799 --> 03:08:16,399
Speaker 6: But that's not going to get you anywhere with what

3195
03:08:16,600 --> 03:08:23,920
natural theology says about first principles. How So, because natural

3196
03:08:23,959 --> 03:08:27,559
theology presupposes neutrality, and that you're starting your reasoning without

3197
03:08:27,600 --> 03:08:30,959
anything to do with divine revelation. You're beginning with reason alone,

3198
03:08:31,520 --> 03:08:35,920
and you're building on self evident first principles. How do

3199
03:08:36,000 --> 03:08:37,920
you know what the self evident first principles are without

3200
03:08:37,920 --> 03:08:38,520
being arbitrary?

3201
03:08:39,879 --> 03:08:40,639
Speaker 17: So I have a question.

3202
03:08:40,760 --> 03:08:42,840
Speaker 15: I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. So

3203
03:08:43,120 --> 03:08:48,479
the if somebody, so you believe that God has certain attributes,

3204
03:08:48,559 --> 03:08:52,000
and if somebody were to somebody somebody's never had some

3205
03:08:52,040 --> 03:08:54,479
sort of revelation, if they were to come to conclusions

3206
03:08:54,520 --> 03:08:56,760
about anything, if you were talking to somebody that they're like, yeah,

3207
03:08:56,760 --> 03:08:58,840
there's this one God and he has these attributes, and

3208
03:08:58,879 --> 03:09:01,200
you agree with all these attributes up to a point,

3209
03:09:01,760 --> 03:09:04,280
would you say like, basically they just got lucky or

3210
03:09:04,680 --> 03:09:07,920
how would you like they arrived at are a proper

3211
03:09:08,000 --> 03:09:09,959
conclusion based off of false reason?

3212
03:09:10,120 --> 03:09:13,879
Speaker 6: I think, like Paul says in Romans, one God, the Triad,

3213
03:09:13,959 --> 03:09:17,559
the Trinity, the Logos is not far from anybody. The

3214
03:09:17,639 --> 03:09:20,280
Word is near you, even in your hearts. Every man

3215
03:09:20,440 --> 03:09:24,079
has a heart anoetic principle by which he directly relates

3216
03:09:24,159 --> 03:09:28,440
to God and he has to reattach that relationship, that

3217
03:09:28,920 --> 03:09:33,079
connectivity which happens through divine revelation. But I don't restrict

3218
03:09:33,079 --> 03:09:37,440
divine revelation to I mean, the world itself is a theoteny.

3219
03:09:38,000 --> 03:09:40,840
That's something that Thomas and you guys don't understand. Like

3220
03:09:41,360 --> 03:09:45,600
the the cosmos, is that the oftening of Christ? What

3221
03:09:45,719 --> 03:09:46,200
do you think of that?

3222
03:09:48,520 --> 03:09:50,079
Speaker 17: I mean, I think that.

3223
03:09:51,120 --> 03:09:54,879
Speaker 15: I mean I think you would definitely just push back

3224
03:09:54,920 --> 03:09:57,559
and disagree with this, But my thought would be, yes,

3225
03:09:57,680 --> 03:10:00,200
I agree, and that's why we're able to know these things.

3226
03:10:00,239 --> 03:10:03,920
Speaker 6: That's why we But that's now you're violating natural theology.

3227
03:10:04,559 --> 03:10:07,200
The natural theology doesn't tell you anything about the Trinity.

3228
03:10:08,079 --> 03:10:10,239
The Trinity is not a principal of natural theology. It's

3229
03:10:10,239 --> 03:10:13,360
a principal divine revelation. All natural theology tells you is

3230
03:10:13,479 --> 03:10:17,319
the lowest common denominator attributes of the absolutely simple essence.

3231
03:10:18,639 --> 03:10:20,920
Speaker 15: I don't think that's necessarily fair.

3232
03:10:21,959 --> 03:10:23,520
Speaker 6: No, what do you mean that's not fair that that's

3233
03:10:23,680 --> 03:10:26,440
your theology unless you're like departing from Tumaism or something.

3234
03:10:27,440 --> 03:10:31,920
Speaker 40: No, I think what's if you're saying that what we're

3235
03:10:31,959 --> 03:10:36,120
saying is that that humans can't wouldn't know about the Trinity.

3236
03:10:36,239 --> 03:10:38,360
That doesn't mean that we can't recognize it after knowing

3237
03:10:38,440 --> 03:10:39,399
it in nature.

3238
03:10:41,040 --> 03:10:42,840
Speaker 6: That has nothing to do with the fact that the

3239
03:10:42,920 --> 03:10:45,520
trinity and the incarnation, the virgin birth are doctrines of

3240
03:10:45,680 --> 03:10:49,639
supernatural divine revelation in Catholic theology. They are not aspects

3241
03:10:49,719 --> 03:10:52,879
of natural theology. And what we're saying is there is

3242
03:10:52,959 --> 03:10:56,399
notice that this is a false distinction. There's natural revelation,

3243
03:10:56,879 --> 03:10:59,719
but that natural revelation is of the triad. You don't

3244
03:10:59,719 --> 03:11:03,360
believe that. No, Thomas believes that you're not getting Nature

3245
03:11:03,479 --> 03:11:05,239
is not teaching you Jesus and your theology.

3246
03:11:07,399 --> 03:11:08,719
Speaker 15: I mean I think that that's.

3247
03:11:11,200 --> 03:11:12,879
Speaker 6: Have you read the Semicontures in Tels.

3248
03:11:13,879 --> 03:11:15,079
Speaker 15: I've heard quite a bit of it.

3249
03:11:15,120 --> 03:11:17,239
Speaker 6: Okay, so volume one, what is it? Is there anything

3250
03:11:17,280 --> 03:11:18,079
about trinity in there?

3251
03:11:18,959 --> 03:11:21,959
Speaker 15: No, it's it's the first most of the questions regarding

3252
03:11:22,280 --> 03:11:22,959
God's nature.

3253
03:11:23,680 --> 03:11:25,680
Speaker 6: That's from what from natural theology?

3254
03:11:26,159 --> 03:11:26,479
Speaker 17: Correct?

3255
03:11:26,559 --> 03:11:26,879
Speaker 7: Correct?

3256
03:11:27,360 --> 03:11:29,479
Speaker 6: So there's nothing about trinity in there because trinity and

3257
03:11:29,520 --> 03:11:33,319
incarnation are not part of natural theology. They're divine revelation,

3258
03:11:33,399 --> 03:11:36,559
they're supernatural theology. This is like Thomas in One on

3259
03:11:36,639 --> 03:11:36,959
One Man.

3260
03:11:37,360 --> 03:11:41,079
Speaker 40: So again that's why I was asking you before, So

3261
03:11:41,479 --> 03:11:45,959
how would you proved God exists to a skeptica.

3262
03:11:46,719 --> 03:11:48,680
Speaker 6: Have you not heard me make tags as an art.

3263
03:11:48,719 --> 03:11:50,079
I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just saying, like,

3264
03:11:51,200 --> 03:11:53,159
you haven't heard me do this argument for like twenty years.

3265
03:11:53,239 --> 03:11:55,680
Speaker 15: Come on, if you've had me, you've had me blanches.

3266
03:11:55,719 --> 03:11:57,479
I haven't been able to use your content as much

3267
03:11:57,479 --> 03:12:01,000
as I used to. Please if you want to.

3268
03:12:01,120 --> 03:12:04,000
Speaker 6: I mean, there's a million public YouTube videos. You're not blocked.

3269
03:12:04,200 --> 03:12:05,920
It's like you're blocked. You can't watch those?

3270
03:12:05,959 --> 03:12:06,360
Speaker 10: What do you mean?

3271
03:12:07,000 --> 03:12:10,079
Speaker 15: I just I haven't. I haven't engaged with your content

3272
03:12:10,120 --> 03:12:11,200
as much as I used to.

3273
03:12:11,600 --> 03:12:12,120
Speaker 6: It's fine.

3274
03:12:12,239 --> 03:12:14,360
Speaker 15: I might have seen something like that and for simply

3275
03:12:14,399 --> 03:12:16,200
forgotten it. I apologize for that.

3276
03:12:16,799 --> 03:12:18,360
Speaker 6: No, it's a I mean, you're in a system that

3277
03:12:18,440 --> 03:12:21,399
doesn't allow you for you to understand system theology and

3278
03:12:21,479 --> 03:12:24,360
internal critiques because you are in a classical foundation, let's

3279
03:12:24,559 --> 03:12:27,399
building block system, and you think everything is proven by

3280
03:12:27,440 --> 03:12:29,200
stacking a bunch of evidences. And when I do an

3281
03:12:29,200 --> 03:12:33,239
internal critique, you guys go haywiter. It doesn't it doesn't

3282
03:12:33,239 --> 03:12:35,360
make sense. Just it doesn't make sense. But I'm not

3283
03:12:35,440 --> 03:12:37,520
trying to be rude, but like this illustrates I think

3284
03:12:37,559 --> 03:12:41,000
everything that I've been saying like, there, how are you

3285
03:12:41,120 --> 03:12:44,719
going to? Let me give you another example. Maybe this

3286
03:12:44,760 --> 03:12:50,360
will help hammer it home. The doctrine of if you

3287
03:12:50,399 --> 03:12:52,040
look out of the natural world. Let's say we're going

3288
03:12:52,079 --> 03:12:56,000
to reason from uh, natural theology principles apart from divine revelation.

3289
03:12:57,520 --> 03:13:00,600
When you look at the world, doesn't it include death?

3290
03:13:03,440 --> 03:13:03,680
Speaker 15: Sure?

3291
03:13:04,600 --> 03:13:07,239
Speaker 6: Would we conclude that death is natural from that?

3292
03:13:10,520 --> 03:13:10,840
Speaker 15: You could?

3293
03:13:10,959 --> 03:13:16,239
Speaker 6: Yes, right, you could. But divine revelation tells us that

3294
03:13:16,360 --> 03:13:20,319
this world is actually fallen and that death is not natural,

3295
03:13:20,360 --> 03:13:24,399
it's actually unnatural. And so I can't really understand this world?

3296
03:13:24,600 --> 03:13:26,920
Can I The way that there's a predator prey relationship,

3297
03:13:26,959 --> 03:13:31,079
the way there's corruption, decay, and death without what's in Genesis?

3298
03:13:31,200 --> 03:13:31,319
Speaker 29: Right?

3299
03:13:31,920 --> 03:13:36,120
Speaker 6: How can I accurately interpret nature without Genesis in the fall?

3300
03:13:38,120 --> 03:13:38,319
Speaker 40: Yeah?

3301
03:13:38,479 --> 03:13:41,440
Speaker 15: So, I mean I would say, so you can know

3302
03:13:41,600 --> 03:13:42,719
some things, that doesn't.

3303
03:13:42,520 --> 03:13:43,639
Speaker 17: Mean that you can know everything.

3304
03:13:43,879 --> 03:13:45,799
Speaker 6: Well, how do I know the things that are What

3305
03:13:45,920 --> 03:13:47,520
are the some things that I'm knowing when I look

3306
03:13:47,559 --> 03:13:49,840
at at the world. And remember we're not going to

3307
03:13:49,920 --> 03:13:52,159
reference divine revelation here, We're only going to be natural

3308
03:13:52,159 --> 03:13:54,799
theology principles. You just said that, I mean, couldn't I

3309
03:13:54,840 --> 03:13:56,079
conclude that death is natural.

3310
03:13:57,639 --> 03:13:57,799
Speaker 7: You know.

3311
03:13:58,319 --> 03:13:59,000
Speaker 17: That's that's why.

3312
03:13:58,920 --> 03:14:01,239
Speaker 40: I'm saying, we're not completely divorce for revelation in that sense,

3313
03:14:01,319 --> 03:14:03,399
we would say look to revelation to know the things

3314
03:14:03,479 --> 03:14:04,840
that No.

3315
03:14:04,879 --> 03:14:08,200
Speaker 6: No, now you're violating the principle of natural theology. So

3316
03:14:08,799 --> 03:14:10,559
you're saying, oh, well, we can look to revelation. No,

3317
03:14:10,719 --> 03:14:14,079
we're doing natural theology apart from divine revelation. My point

3318
03:14:14,159 --> 03:14:17,239
is that you can't interpret the natural world correctly without genesis,

3319
03:14:18,040 --> 03:14:20,840
because you're going to conclude, as the atheist did of

3320
03:14:20,920 --> 03:14:24,719
the seventeen eighteenth century, that the natural world shows that death, decaying,

3321
03:14:24,760 --> 03:14:29,959
corruption aren't natural and part of the process. And if

3322
03:14:30,000 --> 03:14:32,399
you're going to say, oh, you're misinterpreting the natural world

3323
03:14:32,399 --> 03:14:36,040
because of genesis, yeah, now you're not a natural theologian anymore.

3324
03:14:37,360 --> 03:14:40,520
So you can't interpret the natural world correctly without divine revelation.

3325
03:14:40,600 --> 03:14:46,840
As the point, yeah, I'm not disputing that that disproves

3326
03:14:46,920 --> 03:14:49,920
natural theology. You can't even understand the basics of nature

3327
03:14:49,959 --> 03:14:50,719
without revelation.

3328
03:14:53,879 --> 03:14:55,280
Speaker 17: I mean, like, for.

3329
03:14:55,319 --> 03:14:57,760
Speaker 15: Example, like we would a knit when it comes to God,

3330
03:14:58,079 --> 03:15:00,879
that you can't fully understand God of part natural or

3331
03:15:01,959 --> 03:15:03,200
a perferal revelation.

3332
03:15:03,159 --> 03:15:03,920
Speaker 17: That's the whole point.

3333
03:15:05,479 --> 03:15:08,319
Speaker 6: No, you're missing the point that you have two conflicting

3334
03:15:08,440 --> 03:15:11,799
systems at work at once. One system is a natural

3335
03:15:11,879 --> 03:15:16,959
theology atheistic approach, which there's no logical reason why I

3336
03:15:17,079 --> 03:15:20,280
can't conclude on the base of natural theology that death

3337
03:15:20,399 --> 03:15:23,319
is natural. And then you're saying, well, but I can

3338
03:15:23,319 --> 03:15:26,159
also appeal to divine revelation. Well, now you're not doing

3339
03:15:26,280 --> 03:15:28,879
natural theology anymore. So you're admitting my point that you

3340
03:15:29,040 --> 03:15:33,280
need divine revelation to correctly interpret a fallen world. Otherwise,

3341
03:15:33,600 --> 03:15:35,479
why wouldn't we conclude death is natural.

3342
03:15:36,479 --> 03:15:39,079
Speaker 15: Yeah, again, I don't see how that's an issue, because.

3343
03:15:38,840 --> 03:15:40,600
Speaker 17: That's the whole point. That's the whole point.

3344
03:15:40,639 --> 03:15:43,399
Speaker 15: That's why we have revelation. That's the whole purpose of revelation.

3345
03:15:43,840 --> 03:15:45,040
I'm not trying to be as smart, and it just

3346
03:15:45,120 --> 03:15:47,840
it seems to me that that's the purpose of revelation

3347
03:15:48,000 --> 03:15:49,920
is so we can properly interpret these things.

3348
03:15:50,000 --> 03:15:52,520
Speaker 6: Then you just undercut the whole point of natural theology.

3349
03:15:52,559 --> 03:15:54,719
When you try to interpret the natural world, you understand,

3350
03:15:55,040 --> 03:15:57,440
your whole argument is like, oh, I can look at

3351
03:15:57,479 --> 03:16:00,440
the world and I see causation, I see content, agency,

3352
03:16:01,600 --> 03:16:03,799
don't you see death too. The point is that you're

3353
03:16:03,920 --> 03:16:08,760
arbitrarily picking things and you're relying on your Christian presuppositions

3354
03:16:08,799 --> 03:16:11,440
to interpret the natural world when we're not talking about

3355
03:16:11,440 --> 03:16:14,840
the Christian revelation. We're talking about natural theology. So you're

3356
03:16:14,959 --> 03:16:18,360
if I'm gonna play an atheist to you, okay, as

3357
03:16:18,719 --> 03:16:20,840
as I'm playing the atheist, not wortholot so say I'm

3358
03:16:20,840 --> 03:16:24,000
playing the atheist guy. Your position is totally incoherent and

3359
03:16:24,200 --> 03:16:27,559
arbitrary and contradictory because you're telling me that without divine revelation,

3360
03:16:27,639 --> 03:16:31,040
I can look at the world and see causation contingency. Uh,

3361
03:16:31,280 --> 03:16:34,360
you know all of these principles te los, all these

3362
03:16:34,440 --> 03:16:36,600
things that work in the world, and I can tell

3363
03:16:36,639 --> 03:16:40,040
I can just simply respond by saying, I also see death. Therefore,

3364
03:16:40,159 --> 03:16:43,200
death is a natural process. And if you admit death

3365
03:16:43,200 --> 03:16:45,680
as a natural process, and there's no reason why I

3366
03:16:45,799 --> 03:16:48,520
can't say that in a natural theology starting point position,

3367
03:16:49,040 --> 03:16:51,680
then you've now undercut divine revelation and refuted yourself as

3368
03:16:51,719 --> 03:16:52,159
a Christian.

3369
03:16:54,559 --> 03:16:54,920
Speaker 7: M hm.

3370
03:16:56,159 --> 03:16:56,600
Speaker 15: Okay, So.

3371
03:16:59,440 --> 03:17:01,559
Speaker 6: You don't unders saying what natural theology is, you keep

3372
03:17:01,600 --> 03:17:03,840
importing divine revelation into it. That's not what it is

3373
03:17:04,239 --> 03:17:06,520
you have to start with your starting points, which are

3374
03:17:06,559 --> 03:17:10,959
self evident philosophical reasoning, rational principles. You can't appeal to

3375
03:17:11,000 --> 03:17:14,319
divine revelation, your remember, this is your whole process. Thomas

3376
03:17:14,360 --> 03:17:16,520
Aquinas doesn't appeal to the trinity in sum Countries and

3377
03:17:16,559 --> 03:17:20,600
Telays One. He starts arguing philosophical, self evident principles that

3378
03:17:20,680 --> 03:17:22,959
you have in common with unbelievers. You're trying to convince

3379
03:17:22,959 --> 03:17:24,760
an atheist. I'm not going to listen to your appeals

3380
03:17:24,799 --> 03:17:28,000
to Genesis, okay, And you're gonna say, okay, so you're

3381
03:17:28,000 --> 03:17:32,000
appealing to things like causation, te los, contingency, the five

3382
03:17:32,079 --> 03:17:35,600
proofs of Aquitas, the things he appeals to, right, yes,

3383
03:17:35,760 --> 03:17:38,559
And I'm just simply saying, why are those the things

3384
03:17:38,600 --> 03:17:41,239
that you pick out in the natural world as self

3385
03:17:41,319 --> 03:17:45,120
evident principles. Why isn't death a self evident principle that's

3386
03:17:45,239 --> 03:17:47,479
natural and part of the natural world. And if you

3387
03:17:47,559 --> 03:17:50,079
admit that it is, you've undercut your Christianity.

3388
03:17:52,280 --> 03:17:55,399
Speaker 15: You could just say that, I mean, obviously that we

3389
03:17:55,520 --> 03:17:56,680
provide reasons for that.

3390
03:17:56,840 --> 03:17:58,639
Speaker 6: Obviously, what are your reasons?

3391
03:17:59,600 --> 03:18:00,680
Speaker 17: Well, I mean, and you could say that.

3392
03:18:00,719 --> 03:18:04,520
Speaker 15: It appears that way due to our current fall in nature.

3393
03:18:04,360 --> 03:18:07,040
Speaker 6: The fall, So that's from Genesis. Just undercut the whole

3394
03:18:07,120 --> 03:18:08,719
argument and prove my point. You have to pill to

3395
03:18:08,760 --> 03:18:10,639
Genesis to unterpret the natural world correctly.

3396
03:18:10,719 --> 03:18:16,399
Speaker 15: Thank you great again. I'm not so you're separating natural

3397
03:18:16,479 --> 03:18:17,479
theology completely.

3398
03:18:17,799 --> 03:18:20,040
Speaker 6: I did it separated completely? No, the point of it

3399
03:18:20,159 --> 03:18:23,239
in apologetics in your system is to convince unbelievers on

3400
03:18:23,280 --> 03:18:26,559
the basis of reasoning principles in common. And I'm an

3401
03:18:26,600 --> 03:18:29,440
atheist who's saying you're arbitrary in what you pick out

3402
03:18:29,520 --> 03:18:33,319
as the reasoning principles that are true. You're you're arbitrarily

3403
03:18:33,399 --> 03:18:37,360
picking on the basis of Christian presubpositions, things like causation

3404
03:18:37,520 --> 03:18:39,639
and order in the world and morality in the world.

3405
03:18:40,200 --> 03:18:42,559
And I'm going to, arbitrarily, as an atheist, say I

3406
03:18:42,719 --> 03:18:46,399
counter that by death, lack of order in the world,

3407
03:18:46,799 --> 03:18:50,520
lack of design. Do you see, because we're not you

3408
03:18:50,559 --> 03:18:53,159
can't appeal to divine revelation in a natural theology argument.

3409
03:18:54,319 --> 03:18:54,600
Speaker 17: Why not?

3410
03:18:55,479 --> 03:18:57,799
Speaker 6: Because it's not natural theology. You just defined it like

3411
03:18:57,879 --> 03:19:00,799
five minutes ago as not appealing to divine reply according

3412
03:19:00,840 --> 03:19:01,760
to you and your church.

3413
03:19:02,559 --> 03:19:04,600
Speaker 15: Yeah, so what I what I would say is is

3414
03:19:04,680 --> 03:19:08,399
that like speaking to an atheist, Well, then I would say, well,

3415
03:19:08,440 --> 03:19:10,799
you know, so there obviously would reach.

3416
03:19:10,760 --> 03:19:12,959
Speaker 6: I'm an atheist on an accept divine revelation, You're gonna

3417
03:19:13,040 --> 03:19:15,399
argue with me on the basis of your self evident

3418
03:19:15,680 --> 03:19:17,920
metaphysical principles and your classical tomism.

3419
03:19:19,159 --> 03:19:21,159
Speaker 15: So yeah, I mean, if you want to argue that

3420
03:19:21,879 --> 03:19:24,040
divine revelation is impossible, which plenty.

3421
03:19:23,799 --> 03:19:26,319
Speaker 6: Of people do, no stop deflecting, has nothing to Maybe

3422
03:19:26,360 --> 03:19:28,760
it is possible, But why am I supposed to accept

3423
03:19:28,799 --> 03:19:32,719
your self evident first principles of design and whatever that

3424
03:19:32,840 --> 03:19:35,159
you see out there in the world apart from divine revelation.

3425
03:19:35,719 --> 03:19:38,399
You want me to adopt your common ground, and all

3426
03:19:38,479 --> 03:19:40,200
I have to do to defeat you this is just

3427
03:19:40,280 --> 03:19:43,280
a simple defeatter for your argument is I pick different

3428
03:19:43,360 --> 03:19:46,559
starting points from the appearance of the natural world, namely

3429
03:19:46,639 --> 03:19:48,920
that death is natural and that there is no order.

3430
03:19:49,159 --> 03:19:52,319
There's a lack of order and design. There's chaos, there's decay,

3431
03:19:52,399 --> 03:19:55,360
there's entropy. Those maybe those are the things that I'm

3432
03:19:55,360 --> 03:19:57,760
supposed to look to. All this is illustrating is that

3433
03:19:57,840 --> 03:20:03,040
your starting points are arbitrary. It's that simple, And.

3434
03:20:04,719 --> 03:20:06,920
Speaker 40: I'm not trying to say I'm not trying to say

3435
03:20:06,959 --> 03:20:09,319
like too quickly or like you know what about it

3436
03:20:09,399 --> 03:20:10,440
is that I'm actually curious.

3437
03:20:10,479 --> 03:20:13,079
Speaker 15: So you think that your position or you believe your position.

3438
03:20:13,280 --> 03:20:15,559
Speaker 6: No, I'm an atheist skeptic. I don't have to say that.

3439
03:20:15,840 --> 03:20:18,239
My I'm saying. All I have to do to defeat

3440
03:20:18,280 --> 03:20:20,520
your arbitrary in this is to say, well, my counter

3441
03:20:20,639 --> 03:20:23,600
with these arbitraries, why am I supposed to accept that

3442
03:20:23,959 --> 03:20:26,280
the natural world is ordered versus disordered?

3443
03:20:27,040 --> 03:20:28,239
Speaker 17: Yeah? But I mean you could do the same thing

3444
03:20:28,280 --> 03:20:28,799
with a revelation.

3445
03:20:28,879 --> 03:20:30,559
Speaker 6: You could say, oh, why do you keep appilling to

3446
03:20:30,600 --> 03:20:32,760
bind revelation? You can't do that in natural theology.

3447
03:20:33,319 --> 03:20:36,440
Speaker 15: Well, I'm saying even if even was to say that,

3448
03:20:36,680 --> 03:20:39,920
you know, we're just we're doing exclusively revelation, if we

3449
03:20:40,000 --> 03:20:41,399
were going off of that, I mean.

3450
03:20:41,479 --> 03:20:43,479
Speaker 6: Why do you keep appealing to the thing that is

3451
03:20:43,559 --> 03:20:47,079
not relevant in natural theology? So you're proving my point

3452
03:20:47,159 --> 03:20:51,079
that you can't that you it's inescapable to appeal to revelation.

3453
03:20:51,280 --> 03:20:56,479
Why Because guess what, I agree that causation, tilos, order, morals,

3454
03:20:56,520 --> 03:20:59,719
all that stuff exists, and it's necessary, but it's grounded

3455
03:20:59,760 --> 03:21:02,319
in relation. And the very way that you operate. You

3456
03:21:02,440 --> 03:21:05,159
keep going back to that proves my point that it's inescapable.

3457
03:21:05,840 --> 03:21:08,520
That's why we do that as a better apologetic than

3458
03:21:09,040 --> 03:21:11,760
this dumb idea that there's self evident principles that you

3459
03:21:11,840 --> 03:21:14,440
can convince an atheist with. And if a smart atheist

3460
03:21:14,479 --> 03:21:17,399
comes to this and says, this is arbitrary, why am

3461
03:21:17,440 --> 03:21:20,399
I supposed to accept those things and not the other things?

3462
03:21:20,799 --> 03:21:21,719
Can you tell me why.

3463
03:21:24,559 --> 03:21:27,319
Speaker 15: I would say that you would be I think that

3464
03:21:27,719 --> 03:21:29,920
it would be you would be unable to reason with.

3465
03:21:30,319 --> 03:21:32,600
Speaker 6: Okay, maybe we don't. Maybe we can't. Maybe maybe we're

3466
03:21:32,680 --> 03:21:35,319
deceiving ourselves and we can't reason. You understand, there's giant,

3467
03:21:35,440 --> 03:21:36,879
giant millions of people that believe that.

3468
03:21:37,440 --> 03:21:38,040
Speaker 17: I understand.

3469
03:21:38,239 --> 03:21:39,920
Speaker 15: Yeah, I'm aware and that you know, I get the

3470
03:21:40,000 --> 03:21:43,520
whole the cog two comes out of that, and yeah,

3471
03:21:43,680 --> 03:21:49,000
I'm well aware. But well, I think we've uh, we've

3472
03:21:49,000 --> 03:21:51,360
probably gotten to all the topics that I wanted to

3473
03:21:51,399 --> 03:21:52,799
talk to, especially.

3474
03:21:52,680 --> 03:21:54,280
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, it was funny, right, but I think

3475
03:21:54,479 --> 03:21:56,479
it illustrates we like when we got to the point

3476
03:21:56,520 --> 03:21:59,680
where I said, why isn't death natural? And it's the

3477
03:21:59,760 --> 03:22:01,559
act full principle that you usually look to rather than

3478
03:22:01,680 --> 03:22:04,319
like causation or two last something like that, And you said, well,

3479
03:22:04,399 --> 03:22:07,239
because of the fall. Yeah, but that's a doctrine from

3480
03:22:07,280 --> 03:22:10,520
divine revelation. So you're admitting the point that you actually

3481
03:22:10,559 --> 03:22:14,399
can't interpret the natural world without divine revelation, and that

3482
03:22:14,559 --> 03:22:15,719
destroys natural theology.

3483
03:22:16,079 --> 03:22:19,280
Speaker 15: Hold on, I think the whole, the whole, the natural theology,

3484
03:22:19,319 --> 03:22:21,799
the whole point is that we cannot fully understand the

3485
03:22:21,840 --> 03:22:23,760
world apart from that from divine repoles.

3486
03:22:23,760 --> 03:22:25,719
Speaker 6: Okay, you can say that, but I'm pointing out how

3487
03:22:25,799 --> 03:22:28,879
you can't even arbitrarily. You can't even consistently tell me

3488
03:22:28,920 --> 03:22:31,840
which principle I'm supposed to follow without being arbitrary because

3489
03:22:31,840 --> 03:22:34,479
you're saying, no, no, you're misinterpreting. It's not actually death

3490
03:22:34,559 --> 03:22:37,760
that's natural, you see, because that's part of the fallen world. Well,

3491
03:22:37,760 --> 03:22:39,280
you wouldn't know that apart from Genesis.

3492
03:22:39,879 --> 03:22:40,200
Speaker 17: Correct.

3493
03:22:40,520 --> 03:22:41,920
Speaker 15: I'm conceding that I don't understand.

3494
03:22:41,920 --> 03:22:44,200
Speaker 6: Okay, then then you don't believe in natural theology anymore.

3495
03:22:43,920 --> 03:22:44,159
Speaker 7: Thank you.

3496
03:22:45,520 --> 03:22:50,000
Speaker 40: Yeah, Look, I obviously I think that if you if

3497
03:22:50,040 --> 03:22:51,879
you read a Quinus, I don't think he's like, okay,

3498
03:22:51,920 --> 03:22:54,280
so there's this natural theology thing, and then they're like

3499
03:22:55,319 --> 03:22:56,120
they're built.

3500
03:22:55,959 --> 03:22:57,040
Speaker 17: Upon a year.

3501
03:22:57,120 --> 03:22:59,959
Speaker 6: You're no, that's absolutely what it is. The divine revelation.

3502
03:23:00,680 --> 03:23:04,520
Grace builds on nature, SuperNature builds on nature. Revelation builds

3503
03:23:04,559 --> 03:23:06,840
on first principles. So you're totally wrong. You don't even

3504
03:23:06,879 --> 03:23:11,159
know your tumenism. You don't know that that's basic tumism.

3505
03:23:12,360 --> 03:23:12,760
Speaker 10: No I do.

3506
03:23:13,079 --> 03:23:18,319
Speaker 15: I feel like I'm struggling to put into words exactly

3507
03:23:18,600 --> 03:23:19,280
where I think we're.

3508
03:23:19,440 --> 03:23:20,879
Speaker 6: Well, maybe it's because you're wrong.

3509
03:23:23,159 --> 03:23:30,159
Speaker 17: So okay, so you're asserting that these things happen.

3510
03:23:30,680 --> 03:23:33,319
Speaker 6: Okay, So all I've done throughout the whole conversation is

3511
03:23:33,399 --> 03:23:36,840
illustrate that everything that your argument is built on arbitrariness

3512
03:23:36,959 --> 03:23:39,799
and ad hoc and these are the self evident principles

3513
03:23:39,840 --> 03:23:41,840
and we all just know this because it is. And

3514
03:23:42,000 --> 03:23:44,079
all I have to do is simply say why on

3515
03:23:44,239 --> 03:23:46,559
what basis? And if you start appealing to other things,

3516
03:23:46,600 --> 03:23:47,840
guess what? Then they're not self evident.

3517
03:23:48,479 --> 03:23:50,959
Speaker 15: But can you appeal to radical down for any position?

3518
03:23:51,520 --> 03:23:51,799
Speaker 6: Say what?

3519
03:23:52,000 --> 03:23:54,879
Speaker 15: I just couldn't want to kield a radical down for

3520
03:23:54,920 --> 03:23:57,520
any position. I don't see how that that's truly an issue.

3521
03:23:59,239 --> 03:24:02,079
Speaker 6: It doesn't even ass necessarily until radical doubts. These are

3522
03:24:02,159 --> 03:24:05,840
just defeaters for your arbitra In ess, you.

3523
03:24:05,879 --> 03:24:08,680
Speaker 15: Could just say that any any use line of argumentation

3524
03:24:08,799 --> 03:24:11,920
is arbitrary. It doesn't it seems like you could.

3525
03:24:12,159 --> 03:24:14,680
Speaker 6: No, No, it doesn't mean any any position is arbitrary.

3526
03:24:14,760 --> 03:24:17,360
So your answer is that every position is arbitrary.

3527
03:24:18,200 --> 03:24:20,360
Speaker 15: No, No, I'm saying according if you want to, I'm

3528
03:24:20,399 --> 03:24:21,920
saying it in a radical debt doubt sense.

3529
03:24:21,959 --> 03:24:23,520
Speaker 17: You can radically doubt what are we everything?

3530
03:24:23,600 --> 03:24:25,520
Speaker 6: I don't know. I don't actually think you can.

3531
03:24:26,719 --> 03:24:28,799
Speaker 15: Okay, So what sort of things can't you?

3532
03:24:29,639 --> 03:24:29,799
Speaker 7: Well?

3533
03:24:29,879 --> 03:24:33,040
Speaker 6: For example, I can't radically doubt the laws of logic

3534
03:24:33,239 --> 03:24:37,479
because I would be assuming them to engage in denying them.

3535
03:24:38,399 --> 03:24:40,520
Speaker 15: Okay, And don't you think that like the law of

3536
03:24:40,559 --> 03:24:43,479
non contradiction, for example, is built on logic.

3537
03:24:44,520 --> 03:24:46,920
Speaker 6: It is one of the classical laws of logic. It's

3538
03:24:46,920 --> 03:24:47,760
not built on logic.

3539
03:24:47,799 --> 03:24:52,280
Speaker 17: It is logic correct correct, so or the like.

3540
03:24:53,879 --> 03:24:57,040
Speaker 6: So I think you're confusing, like what a thing is

3541
03:24:57,280 --> 03:25:01,280
versus its justification. So we agree that there are laws

3542
03:25:01,319 --> 03:25:03,879
of logic. There's a law of non contradiction, but that's

3543
03:25:03,959 --> 03:25:06,319
different than giving an account for how it exists and

3544
03:25:06,360 --> 03:25:09,200
how it's the case. So those are two different questions.

3545
03:25:09,239 --> 03:25:11,959
So maybe you're confusing those two. So we both can

3546
03:25:12,079 --> 03:25:15,639
commonly agree that there's laws of logic, But on what

3547
03:25:15,760 --> 03:25:18,719
basis am I supposed to believe that Tonism in your

3548
03:25:18,719 --> 03:25:20,600
worldview can give an account for the laws of logic?

3549
03:25:21,200 --> 03:25:23,399
Speaker 15: Well, so let me ask you this, So according to

3550
03:25:23,479 --> 03:25:28,159
Europe if I wasn't okay, so would you say that

3551
03:25:28,680 --> 03:25:34,360
somebody who has never received the revelation according you know,

3552
03:25:34,440 --> 03:25:37,239
according to the Christian worldview, or I guess to your

3553
03:25:37,360 --> 03:25:42,840
world viewing the orthodox worldview? That basically, like I said before,

3554
03:25:42,920 --> 03:25:44,879
like if they arrive at these conclusions, like if they're

3555
03:25:44,920 --> 03:25:49,399
able to talk about logic and the principle of non contradiction,

3556
03:25:49,680 --> 03:25:51,319
the principles of causation, that.

3557
03:25:51,360 --> 03:25:53,840
Speaker 6: Doesn't mean they have an account for those things. Using

3558
03:25:53,920 --> 03:25:55,719
them is not the same thing as justifying them.

3559
03:25:56,319 --> 03:25:58,399
Speaker 15: But you say that they are right, like they're recognizing

3560
03:25:58,479 --> 03:26:00,360
things that are real, but they're coming up out it

3561
03:26:00,639 --> 03:26:01,159
on their own.

3562
03:26:01,239 --> 03:26:02,000
Speaker 17: How are they doing that?

3563
03:26:02,920 --> 03:26:05,719
Speaker 6: They're real universal metaphor physical principles in the world. I

3564
03:26:05,760 --> 03:26:07,600
don't deny them or doubt them. I just don't think

3565
03:26:07,680 --> 03:26:09,280
that your argument's give an account for them.

3566
03:26:10,200 --> 03:26:12,360
Speaker 15: Okay, okay, But so you think that they're out there

3567
03:26:12,399 --> 03:26:13,799
and that people can recognize them.

3568
03:26:14,079 --> 03:26:16,799
Speaker 6: Of course, they're absolutely necessary for the possibility of predication.

3569
03:26:16,840 --> 03:26:18,000
They're transcendental categories.

3570
03:26:18,799 --> 03:26:19,399
Speaker 10: Okay, So.

3571
03:26:22,040 --> 03:26:25,239
Speaker 15: Okay, so people can recognize these things, but they're an

3572
03:26:25,319 --> 03:26:29,079
error about other They can recognize true things, but they

3573
03:26:29,159 --> 03:26:31,559
might be an error about other particular things.

3574
03:26:32,000 --> 03:26:34,319
Speaker 6: They're typically, in your case, in error about how to

3575
03:26:34,360 --> 03:26:35,319
give an account for them.

3576
03:26:36,239 --> 03:26:40,559
Speaker 15: Okay, so you would just so would you say that

3577
03:26:40,680 --> 03:26:42,600
my the conclusion.

3578
03:26:42,799 --> 03:26:45,360
Speaker 6: We're using a thing is not an epistemic justification for

3579
03:26:45,440 --> 03:26:45,680
a thing.

3580
03:26:46,440 --> 03:26:49,040
Speaker 15: I'm not saying. I'm not not even going there.

3581
03:26:49,239 --> 03:26:50,879
Speaker 40: What I'm saying is that, Okay, So if I say

3582
03:26:51,920 --> 03:26:54,680
I believe that there is this law of non contradiction,

3583
03:26:54,840 --> 03:26:57,840
would you say that that's correct or incorrect based off

3584
03:26:57,879 --> 03:26:58,879
of how I justified.

3585
03:27:00,040 --> 03:27:02,159
Speaker 6: You didn't give a justification. You just stated that you

3586
03:27:02,239 --> 03:27:04,440
believe in it. I'm saying that, what do you think

3587
03:27:04,479 --> 03:27:05,200
a justification is?

3588
03:27:05,280 --> 03:27:05,440
Speaker 7: First?

3589
03:27:05,479 --> 03:27:07,120
Speaker 6: Maybe that's the confusion. What do you think everystem of

3590
03:27:07,200 --> 03:27:07,840
justification is?

3591
03:27:08,920 --> 03:27:13,360
Speaker 15: Well, what I'm saying is how one justifies it. If

3592
03:27:13,600 --> 03:27:15,680
I'm saying if they justify it properly, then you would

3593
03:27:15,680 --> 03:27:18,399
obviously say it's proper If they justify it in an

3594
03:27:18,680 --> 03:27:20,680
incorrect way, you would say it's would you say that

3595
03:27:20,719 --> 03:27:22,159
it's completely incorrect.

3596
03:27:21,799 --> 03:27:22,040
Speaker 7: Then.

3597
03:27:23,479 --> 03:27:25,120
Speaker 6: No, it would just mean that they don't have good

3598
03:27:25,159 --> 03:27:27,520
reasons for believing in it. It still can still be true.

3599
03:27:27,920 --> 03:27:31,760
Like I mean, I let's say I wash my hands

3600
03:27:31,799 --> 03:27:33,399
every day after I go to the bathroom because I

3601
03:27:33,399 --> 03:27:35,920
think it'll make bitcoin go up. I mean, it's still

3602
03:27:36,040 --> 03:27:37,719
a good thing to wash your hands after you use

3603
03:27:37,760 --> 03:27:40,559
the bathroom. But I have bad reasons for washing my hands.

3604
03:27:40,760 --> 03:27:42,719
So it doesn't make the washing of the hands falls.

3605
03:27:42,799 --> 03:27:44,239
It just means I have bad reasons for it.

3606
03:27:44,920 --> 03:27:47,120
Speaker 15: So this this seems to me like when we look

3607
03:27:47,239 --> 03:27:50,959
at we look at other other religions, we say, Okay,

3608
03:27:51,040 --> 03:27:52,200
they do believe in God.

3609
03:27:52,440 --> 03:27:54,440
Speaker 17: They just they do so for wrong reasons, or.

3610
03:27:54,479 --> 03:27:56,760
Speaker 6: They do so, No, they don't have the right deity.

3611
03:27:57,680 --> 03:28:00,920
They do they they're they're not a on the right God.

3612
03:28:01,959 --> 03:28:03,840
Speaker 15: So do you think that I'm that I have like

3613
03:28:03,920 --> 03:28:06,639
a different principle of non contradiction than you do if

3614
03:28:06,680 --> 03:28:08,040
I justify it wrongly.

3615
03:28:09,360 --> 03:28:11,639
Speaker 6: How does that relate to the false theology of a

3616
03:28:11,680 --> 03:28:14,559
false religion and not the principle non contradiction. I'm confused

3617
03:28:14,600 --> 03:28:17,399
about You're asking one question about the principle non contradiction.

3618
03:28:17,479 --> 03:28:20,360
They're saying, but the Pagan's attained to the true God.

3619
03:28:20,879 --> 03:28:22,200
These are these are different questions.

3620
03:28:22,840 --> 03:28:27,600
Speaker 15: So what I'm saying is that there's Okay, so I

3621
03:28:27,760 --> 03:28:30,840
can know that there is I could come to the

3622
03:28:30,879 --> 03:28:33,239
conclusion that there is a law of non contradiction. I'm

3623
03:28:33,280 --> 03:28:35,280
saying that that's akin to yeah, I could come to

3624
03:28:35,319 --> 03:28:39,360
the conclusion ont of the things about the world through reason,

3625
03:28:39,440 --> 03:28:42,600
And I'm saying, okay, so you could reason. It seems

3626
03:28:42,639 --> 03:28:43,159
like the whole.

3627
03:28:43,479 --> 03:28:46,239
Speaker 6: It's a false analogy because saying that there's a law

3628
03:28:46,239 --> 03:28:48,319
of non contradiction you believe in it and utilizing it

3629
03:28:48,479 --> 03:28:50,200
is not the same thing as saying and I also

3630
03:28:50,280 --> 03:28:52,120
believe that there's one God, so therefore it's all the

3631
03:28:52,159 --> 03:28:56,239
same God. It's a non sequitor. It doesn't follow. I mean,

3632
03:28:56,280 --> 03:28:58,120
do you think do you think Muslims and Christians worship

3633
03:28:58,120 --> 03:28:58,520
the same God?

3634
03:28:59,159 --> 03:28:59,360
Speaker 7: Yes?

3635
03:29:00,120 --> 03:29:05,760
Speaker 6: How I mean everything we've talked about is the exact

3636
03:29:05,799 --> 03:29:08,120
reason why that's not the case. I mean, I mean,

3637
03:29:08,200 --> 03:29:10,639
all you do you want do you know what Muslims teach?

3638
03:29:11,520 --> 03:29:11,719
Speaker 17: Yes?

3639
03:29:12,120 --> 03:29:14,760
Speaker 6: What do they say about God or the Old Testament?

3640
03:29:15,879 --> 03:29:19,719
Speaker 17: So that they professed how he that. There's this difine.

3641
03:29:20,000 --> 03:29:21,040
Speaker 6: What do they say about the Father?

3642
03:29:23,799 --> 03:29:26,959
Speaker 15: The Father? They they don't believe in a trinity, so

3643
03:29:27,040 --> 03:29:28,879
there's they say there is only the Father.

3644
03:29:29,000 --> 03:29:29,840
Speaker 17: Basically, I know.

3645
03:29:30,000 --> 03:29:31,559
Speaker 6: So you don't know, you do? You don't even know

3646
03:29:31,639 --> 03:29:33,639
the basics of Muslim theology. They do not believe God

3647
03:29:33,719 --> 03:29:36,520
is father. They specifically are premised on denying God his father.

3648
03:29:36,719 --> 03:29:37,680
So you don't know who you're talking about.

3649
03:29:38,360 --> 03:29:40,120
Speaker 15: What I mean to say is that they know.

3650
03:29:40,479 --> 03:29:42,440
Speaker 6: Just say you don't know. Why are you acting like

3651
03:29:42,520 --> 03:29:44,440
you knew when you said He's father? They do not

3652
03:29:44,520 --> 03:29:45,159
believe his father.

3653
03:29:46,000 --> 03:29:48,520
Speaker 15: Yeah, I knew that. They don't say that. I understand that.

3654
03:29:48,520 --> 03:29:49,079
They don't say that.

3655
03:29:49,200 --> 03:29:52,600
Speaker 6: No, they specifically deny that God has any sons and

3656
03:29:52,680 --> 03:29:55,360
he is not a father. I are that okay, But

3657
03:29:55,399 --> 03:29:59,000
you understand one of the most fundamental names or characteristics

3658
03:29:59,040 --> 03:30:00,639
of God in the Old Testament is God the Father?

3659
03:30:00,799 --> 03:30:00,920
Speaker 8: Right?

3660
03:30:01,719 --> 03:30:02,040
Speaker 17: Correct?

3661
03:30:02,680 --> 03:30:05,159
Speaker 6: And yet you say, sit you saying that Muslims and

3662
03:30:05,200 --> 03:30:10,079
Christians worship the same God when they explicitly deny God

3663
03:30:10,120 --> 03:30:14,559
the Father. You see how silly this is. It may

3664
03:30:14,600 --> 03:30:17,479
seem silly, No, it is silly. It doesn't seem that way.

3665
03:30:18,440 --> 03:30:18,719
Speaker 7: It is.

3666
03:30:20,479 --> 03:30:23,120
Speaker 15: So all I'm saying is that they have come to

3667
03:30:23,200 --> 03:30:26,639
these so they've got me. They're misunderstanding God.

3668
03:30:26,680 --> 03:30:28,520
Speaker 17: They don't know God as he truly is.

3669
03:30:29,040 --> 03:30:32,760
Speaker 6: They specifically hate Christ or anti Christ, deny the Father,

3670
03:30:33,520 --> 03:30:37,760
and you're saying you worship the same God. Correct, Yes,

3671
03:30:37,879 --> 03:30:38,479
you're stupid.

3672
03:30:40,559 --> 03:30:42,799
Speaker 15: Look, I'm not trying to be not trying to be stupid.

3673
03:30:42,799 --> 03:30:44,440
I'm just saying that these people, they are in error.

3674
03:30:44,719 --> 03:30:45,719
I'm not saying that those things are.

3675
03:30:45,879 --> 03:30:49,680
Speaker 6: They explicitly deny the fundamental name that you that you

3676
03:30:49,840 --> 03:30:51,959
recognize as the God of the Old Testament, and you

3677
03:30:52,040 --> 03:30:53,760
say it's still the same God. You're stupid.

3678
03:30:54,440 --> 03:30:57,159
Speaker 15: They are. I'm saying that they're attempting to worship God.

3679
03:30:57,360 --> 03:30:59,479
Speaker 6: It doesn't matter what the attempt is. That people in

3680
03:30:59,600 --> 03:31:01,799
acts are tempting to worship God and calling him sticks

3681
03:31:01,799 --> 03:31:07,479
and rocks, and that doesn't it doesn't attain. No, this

3682
03:31:07,600 --> 03:31:09,600
is how stupid and obstinate you are. Because Paul says

3683
03:31:09,639 --> 03:31:12,159
it's an unknown God and you're an idolatry. It doesn't work.

3684
03:31:12,680 --> 03:31:14,360
Do you think Muslims have the faith of Abraham?

3685
03:31:15,079 --> 03:31:15,920
Speaker 17: No, they did not.

3686
03:31:17,479 --> 03:31:22,120
Speaker 6: You just contradict yourself. Because Vatican twos and tates Vatican

3687
03:31:22,159 --> 03:31:23,840
two says they have the faith of Abraham, and.

3688
03:31:26,000 --> 03:31:26,879
Speaker 17: They claim to Professor.

3689
03:31:26,959 --> 03:31:29,159
Speaker 6: No, it doesn't. I'm not talking about Lugentium. I'm talking

3690
03:31:29,159 --> 03:31:32,399
about Tat's claim. So this is where you're again ignorant.

3691
03:31:33,200 --> 03:31:36,520
Just as Abraham, who with the faith of Abe Abraham

3692
03:31:36,600 --> 03:31:39,319
takes Islam takes pleasure in linking itself to God.

3693
03:31:41,680 --> 03:31:43,920
Speaker 15: I'm sorry, let me pull that up real quick.

3694
03:31:44,639 --> 03:31:47,879
Speaker 6: Tte three, not lumin Gentium sixteen, No Tte three.

3695
03:31:51,120 --> 03:31:57,200
Speaker 17: Okay? Is there a paragraph three? Three?

3696
03:31:57,600 --> 03:31:57,920
Speaker 10: Is okay?

3697
03:31:57,959 --> 03:31:58,479
Speaker 17: Paraph three?

3698
03:32:01,399 --> 03:32:04,319
Speaker 40: It says, okay, So they adore in the Church regards

3699
03:32:04,319 --> 03:32:06,280
with esteem ust the Muslims. They adore the one God,

3700
03:32:06,360 --> 03:32:09,319
living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all powerful, creator

3701
03:32:09,319 --> 03:32:10,200
of heaven and earth, who.

3702
03:32:10,079 --> 03:32:10,760
Speaker 15: Has spoken of men.

3703
03:32:11,280 --> 03:32:14,479
Speaker 40: They take pains to submit wholeheartedly even to his inscrutable decrees,

3704
03:32:14,639 --> 03:32:17,440
just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure.

3705
03:32:17,159 --> 03:32:21,120
Speaker 17: In linking itself submitting to God. Is that where you're

3706
03:32:21,120 --> 03:32:21,479
getting at?

3707
03:32:21,559 --> 03:32:24,319
Speaker 6: Or yeah, I missed the passage? Okay, but what does

3708
03:32:24,360 --> 03:32:26,959
that say that they It says what it says, don't lie?

3709
03:32:28,360 --> 03:32:31,319
Speaker 15: I honestly, I I really I don't. I don't think

3710
03:32:31,360 --> 03:32:34,079
your your take on this is is I think you're

3711
03:32:34,280 --> 03:32:34,879
you're conflating.

3712
03:32:35,040 --> 03:32:37,440
Speaker 6: The whole chat sees what it says and sees you

3713
03:32:37,719 --> 03:32:41,319
right here, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of

3714
03:32:41,440 --> 03:32:45,319
Islam takes pleasure in linking itself submitted to God. Now

3715
03:32:45,399 --> 03:32:47,920
look at the last sentence in that paragraph. Finally, they

3716
03:32:48,000 --> 03:32:51,799
have the moral life and worship God through prayer, alms giving,

3717
03:32:51,840 --> 03:32:52,319
and festing.

3718
03:32:53,159 --> 03:32:56,079
Speaker 15: Yeah, I think that worship is not the same as

3719
03:32:56,120 --> 03:32:56,959
having divine faith.

3720
03:32:58,360 --> 03:33:01,120
Speaker 6: That's even worst worst because it says they adore the

3721
03:33:01,159 --> 03:33:05,159
One True God in Lemgitim sixteen and they worship him. Correct,

3722
03:33:05,719 --> 03:33:07,760
that's not true. They don't you're do you know notice

3723
03:33:07,760 --> 03:33:10,600
saying your own popes historically called this the wicked anti

3724
03:33:10,680 --> 03:33:13,079
Christ religion. How do they worship and serve the One

3725
03:33:13,079 --> 03:33:15,200
True God like Abraham if it's an Antichrist religion.

3726
03:33:16,239 --> 03:33:20,040
Speaker 40: So, like I said, worship just because somebody's worships like

3727
03:33:20,120 --> 03:33:22,280
worshiping something, does not mean that they have divine faith.

3728
03:33:23,360 --> 03:33:26,079
Speaker 6: It says the faith of Islam is the faith of Abraham,

3729
03:33:26,239 --> 03:33:31,120
just as Abraham. They take pains to submit wholeheartedly to

3730
03:33:31,239 --> 03:33:36,079
God and his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham. Do you

3731
03:33:36,159 --> 03:33:38,600
think Abraham submitted to a Unitarian God.

3732
03:33:40,239 --> 03:33:40,360
Speaker 17: All?

3733
03:33:40,440 --> 03:33:43,239
Speaker 6: It's okay, So you're a liar and you have to

3734
03:33:43,360 --> 03:33:44,719
reword what it clearly says.

3735
03:33:45,799 --> 03:33:47,719
Speaker 15: Again, look, I'm not trying to be I.

3736
03:33:47,719 --> 03:33:49,239
Speaker 6: Don't care what you're trying to be. This is because

3737
03:33:49,280 --> 03:33:51,520
you're so hard headed and you're an idolator. You think

3738
03:33:51,600 --> 03:33:54,360
the stupid heresy is true. You make me mad when

3739
03:33:54,360 --> 03:33:55,079
you say this stuff.

3740
03:33:55,879 --> 03:33:59,639
Speaker 15: Okay, So the way that I'm from just going through word.

3741
03:33:59,520 --> 03:34:01,639
Speaker 6: By word, do you have to yap and try to

3742
03:34:01,719 --> 03:34:03,879
make this say something that it doesn't clearly say? How

3743
03:34:03,920 --> 03:34:05,479
come everybody else can figure out what this says?

3744
03:34:07,360 --> 03:34:08,120
Speaker 17: Everybody else?

3745
03:34:09,799 --> 03:34:12,600
Speaker 6: I mean, did Francis sign a joint declaration with a

3746
03:34:12,639 --> 03:34:14,879
granty Mom that God wills all the world religions? Did

3747
03:34:14,920 --> 03:34:16,040
that happen in twenty nineteen?

3748
03:34:16,959 --> 03:34:20,000
Speaker 15: And you know about the distinction between pass if an

3749
03:34:20,000 --> 03:34:21,000
active will? Oh?

3750
03:34:21,120 --> 03:34:23,479
Speaker 6: Okay, and what was that at work today? When he

3751
03:34:23,559 --> 03:34:25,840
said the exact same thing about all the world religions?

3752
03:34:28,520 --> 03:34:31,200
Speaker 17: Which which them are? You're referring to exactly.

3753
03:34:31,159 --> 03:34:33,520
Speaker 6: The statement that is going all over twitter today from

3754
03:34:33,559 --> 03:34:34,079
the Vatican.

3755
03:34:34,479 --> 03:34:35,200
Speaker 17: Well, yeah, there was.

3756
03:34:35,280 --> 03:34:37,479
Speaker 15: There was two statements that have been going around last

3757
03:34:37,479 --> 03:34:37,799
few years.

3758
03:34:37,799 --> 03:34:40,000
Speaker 6: Okay, and so it has nothing. No, the new statement,

3759
03:34:40,600 --> 03:34:44,000
the new statement that he wills the religions and not

3760
03:34:44,159 --> 03:34:46,559
one religion is better than another. It's all diversity. So

3761
03:34:47,079 --> 03:34:50,680
he says there shouldn't be uniformity of the religions, there

3762
03:34:50,719 --> 03:34:53,799
should be unity in the world religions. So that's an

3763
03:34:53,840 --> 03:34:56,600
even stronger statement than what was in the twenty nineteen document.

3764
03:34:58,719 --> 03:35:02,440
Speaker 15: So obviously I heard you mentioned earlier. You're like, oh,

3765
03:35:02,520 --> 03:35:05,639
this is the code that's going around and and I haven't.

3766
03:35:05,680 --> 03:35:09,280
I haven't looked into it enough myself in the last.

3767
03:35:09,280 --> 03:35:12,159
Speaker 6: So again, is this the same church that calls the crusades,

3768
03:35:12,200 --> 03:35:13,959
the one that says that it is the church regards

3769
03:35:14,000 --> 03:35:14,959
with esteem the Muslims.

3770
03:35:17,040 --> 03:35:18,079
Speaker 15: Yes, I believe that.

3771
03:35:18,600 --> 03:35:21,760
Speaker 6: And you don't see a contradiction there. You can esteem

3772
03:35:21,799 --> 03:35:27,000
the Muslims as you call crusades against this anti christ religion, correct, Yeah,

3773
03:35:27,079 --> 03:35:28,239
and that's why you're stupid.

3774
03:35:29,239 --> 03:35:31,719
Speaker 15: I look, I'm not trying to So what of the

3775
03:35:31,760 --> 03:35:34,200
things is that you can you can say that there

3776
03:35:34,479 --> 03:35:38,079
are there's positive things even if they're in error.

3777
03:35:38,159 --> 03:35:44,639
Speaker 6: Does it say just as Abraham help me open? Okay,

3778
03:35:44,719 --> 03:35:46,159
So you and you didn't want to, So what you

3779
03:35:46,239 --> 03:35:49,079
wanted to cope and talk around this and you closed it.

3780
03:35:50,600 --> 03:35:52,360
Speaker 15: No, I just I just I have I opened up

3781
03:35:52,600 --> 03:35:55,319
the Twitter page again. I just have to had to

3782
03:35:55,360 --> 03:36:00,559
open it up again like the tab. So they adore

3783
03:36:00,680 --> 03:36:02,920
the One God living in, subsisting in himself, merciful and

3784
03:36:02,959 --> 03:36:03,559
all powerful.

3785
03:36:03,639 --> 03:36:05,639
Speaker 6: The career of the happening is adoration, worship.

3786
03:36:07,079 --> 03:36:11,120
Speaker 40: Yes, who has spoken to men? They take pains to

3787
03:36:11,159 --> 03:36:12,440
submit wholehardly to us.

3788
03:36:12,520 --> 03:36:14,719
Speaker 6: Even what is the One God? By the way, before

3789
03:36:14,760 --> 03:36:16,520
we go to that, that isn't the trinity? So you

3790
03:36:16,559 --> 03:36:18,680
see this is the point right away. That's natural theology.

3791
03:36:19,079 --> 03:36:22,760
Muslims worship the same one God, living and subsisting in himself.

3792
03:36:23,079 --> 03:36:24,559
Do you understand that there is no such thing as

3793
03:36:24,639 --> 03:36:29,239
the one God that lives in subsists in himself. That's unitarian.

3794
03:36:29,799 --> 03:36:32,520
The One God is only trinitarian. The Old Testament reveals

3795
03:36:32,520 --> 03:36:32,959
a trinity.

3796
03:36:33,879 --> 03:36:36,239
Speaker 15: Where are you saying that you think there's more there's

3797
03:36:36,280 --> 03:36:38,040
more than one substance inside the Trinity?

3798
03:36:38,159 --> 03:36:39,840
Speaker 6: Did I say there's more than one substance? What the

3799
03:36:39,840 --> 03:36:40,719
heck are you talking about?

3800
03:36:41,440 --> 03:36:44,719
Speaker 15: Okay, the subsistence is how do you understand subsistence?

3801
03:36:44,719 --> 03:36:48,040
Speaker 6: Then it says the one God living and subsisting in himself.

3802
03:36:48,760 --> 03:36:52,319
That's a unitarian statement. There is no one God that

3803
03:36:52,440 --> 03:36:56,959
lives and subsists in himself. That's unitarian. There's only the Trinity,

3804
03:36:57,280 --> 03:37:00,239
the Father, eternally generating the Son and eternally spy reading

3805
03:37:00,280 --> 03:37:01,760
the Spirit. That's all. That's the only God there is.

3806
03:37:02,360 --> 03:37:04,000
So this first statement is not true.

3807
03:37:04,719 --> 03:37:06,760
Speaker 15: So you don't believe that the Trinity subsists in itself.

3808
03:37:08,399 --> 03:37:11,239
Speaker 6: The Trinity does not subsist in itself. No, that's heretical.

3809
03:37:11,319 --> 03:37:12,360
This is why you're against stupid.

3810
03:37:14,280 --> 03:37:15,360
Speaker 15: I'm not trying to try.

3811
03:37:16,520 --> 03:37:18,600
Speaker 6: No, but you don't have the Trinity. That's the point.

3812
03:37:20,159 --> 03:37:22,360
There's that is false to say that Trinity lives and

3813
03:37:22,399 --> 03:37:29,719
subsists in it himself. He is the Father. He is

3814
03:37:29,799 --> 03:37:35,479
the Father, I'm he There is no one God. That

3815
03:37:35,600 --> 03:37:38,239
is not a reference to the entire triad. It doesn't that.

3816
03:37:38,399 --> 03:37:40,760
That's not the case. What does the creed say, I

3817
03:37:40,840 --> 03:37:41,639
believe in one God?

3818
03:37:41,760 --> 03:37:41,799
Speaker 7: What?

3819
03:37:45,440 --> 03:37:49,239
Speaker 6: So that's monarchical trinitarianism. This is saying that Muslims, together

3820
03:37:49,319 --> 03:37:54,120
with Christians, worship the one living God who subsists in himself.

3821
03:37:54,559 --> 03:37:57,879
That's unitarian. That doesn't exist. There is no such thing

3822
03:37:57,879 --> 03:38:03,239
as one God himself. That's Unitarians.

3823
03:38:03,319 --> 03:38:05,799
Speaker 15: As I'm understanding, this is just saying that God exists

3824
03:38:06,200 --> 03:38:06,959
by an oven like.

3825
03:38:07,680 --> 03:38:10,479
Speaker 6: That's not true. The Father does not exist in himself.

3826
03:38:10,600 --> 03:38:13,520
He exists with the Son and the Spirit for all eternity.

3827
03:38:13,959 --> 03:38:15,600
The whole point of the whole point is to have

3828
03:38:15,680 --> 03:38:18,479
a commonality with Muslims, which are Unitarians. So they make

3829
03:38:18,520 --> 03:38:22,879
a Unitarian statement and this is not trinitarian. There is

3830
03:38:22,959 --> 03:38:25,360
no Unitarian God. And then you tackle on Trinity down

3831
03:38:25,360 --> 03:38:26,879
the road. That's your tomistic error.

3832
03:38:29,280 --> 03:38:30,559
Speaker 15: No, I don't. I don't believe that there is a

3833
03:38:30,600 --> 03:38:31,159
generic God.

3834
03:38:31,239 --> 03:38:34,280
Speaker 6: That's the yes you do, and it's right here now

3835
03:38:34,399 --> 03:38:37,319
you're lying because you're arguing for natural theology and you,

3836
03:38:37,440 --> 03:38:39,440
by the way, you said while back there is a

3837
03:38:39,520 --> 03:38:40,840
generic God. What do you mean, don't believe in a

3838
03:38:40,879 --> 03:38:41,280
generic God?

3839
03:38:41,360 --> 03:38:41,719
Speaker 1: Yes you do.

3840
03:38:42,120 --> 03:38:42,760
Speaker 6: Why are you lying?

3841
03:38:44,799 --> 03:38:46,799
Speaker 15: I've never said that there's a there's a generic God.

3842
03:38:47,040 --> 03:38:50,000
Speaker 6: By arguing for natural theology that is generic lowest common

3843
03:38:50,000 --> 03:38:50,760
nominator God.

3844
03:38:51,559 --> 03:38:54,120
Speaker 17: It's just the things you can know about those.

3845
03:38:54,440 --> 03:38:56,639
Speaker 6: And we saw those were arbitrary. And the things that

3846
03:38:56,719 --> 03:38:58,879
you can know are the things that aquinas Lists and

3847
03:38:58,879 --> 03:38:59,600
Symagotrid and.

3848
03:38:59,639 --> 03:39:02,120
Speaker 17: Chiles I'm sorry, what's you saying.

3849
03:39:03,559 --> 03:39:05,680
Speaker 6: The things that you can so called know about God

3850
03:39:05,760 --> 03:39:08,479
from natural theology are that he's absolutely simple, that he's

3851
03:39:08,479 --> 03:39:10,879
a temporal, that he's uncaused and noncomposite. Blah blah blah

3852
03:39:10,879 --> 03:39:18,040
blah blah. That's a Unitarian argument. That's a that's a

3853
03:39:18,159 --> 03:39:20,559
generic God, that is the generic God. That's the point.

3854
03:39:21,799 --> 03:39:24,440
You think that you can argue God without trinity that

3855
03:39:24,520 --> 03:39:25,159
doesn't exist.

3856
03:39:27,200 --> 03:39:30,399
Speaker 15: Yeah, So I think the last time we talked to

3857
03:39:30,440 --> 03:39:31,760
I think this came out and I didn't really have

3858
03:39:31,760 --> 03:39:32,079
a chance.

3859
03:39:32,079 --> 03:39:33,600
Speaker 6: Well, now I know why I've blocked you because of this.

3860
03:39:35,079 --> 03:39:36,920
Speaker 15: Well we didn't. We did never even I never even

3861
03:39:36,959 --> 03:39:41,280
talked on this account before. But yeah, okay, I uh,

3862
03:39:42,559 --> 03:39:44,639
I'm sorry if I've made.

3863
03:39:44,680 --> 03:39:47,159
Speaker 6: I mean, I just think that you're completely like hard

3864
03:39:47,239 --> 03:39:51,920
headed and engaged in the most ridiculous cazustrie. Because what's

3865
03:39:51,959 --> 03:39:58,120
the next sentence following which one who has spoken to

3866
03:39:58,200 --> 03:40:00,920
man they take pains? Do you think Muslims take pains

3867
03:40:00,959 --> 03:40:03,120
to submit to God's decrees just like Abraham?

3868
03:40:05,959 --> 03:40:07,920
Speaker 15: I think that they're they're attempting to do so, just

3869
03:40:08,040 --> 03:40:11,120
like Abraham. So Abraham was receiving divine revelation. And I

3870
03:40:11,159 --> 03:40:13,399
don't believe that the Muslims are receiving divine revelation. I

3871
03:40:13,440 --> 03:40:14,639
think that they've taken certain things.

3872
03:40:14,840 --> 03:40:16,520
Speaker 6: What does this say? I don't care what you think.

3873
03:40:16,600 --> 03:40:17,239
What does this say?

3874
03:40:18,799 --> 03:40:18,959
Speaker 17: Oh?

3875
03:40:19,079 --> 03:40:19,319
Speaker 7: I mean?

3876
03:40:20,159 --> 03:40:23,639
Speaker 6: Does it say that Muslims submit to God just like Abraham?

3877
03:40:26,520 --> 03:40:26,559
Speaker 7: So?

3878
03:40:27,200 --> 03:40:29,760
Speaker 6: Does it say that? Just read the text, dude.

3879
03:40:30,239 --> 03:40:32,159
Speaker 40: It says they take pains to submit whole hardily to

3880
03:40:32,239 --> 03:40:35,280
even his inscrutable decrease, just as Abraham, with whom the.

3881
03:40:35,280 --> 03:40:38,200
Speaker 17: Fame of HISLELM takes pleasure in winking itself submitted to God.

3882
03:40:45,159 --> 03:40:45,719
Speaker 6: What does that mean?

3883
03:40:45,799 --> 03:40:45,959
Speaker 1: Say?

3884
03:40:47,719 --> 03:40:49,520
Speaker 17: So, just as Abraham submitted to God?

3885
03:40:49,559 --> 03:40:51,680
Speaker 6: And Muslims. So you gotta read it for the fifth time.

3886
03:40:51,719 --> 03:40:53,200
What does it mean? What is it clearly saying?

3887
03:40:55,440 --> 03:40:57,200
Speaker 15: Ye again?

3888
03:40:57,360 --> 03:41:01,520
Speaker 6: So yeah, good, get out of here. I'm so sick

3889
03:41:01,559 --> 03:41:04,879
of these people. These are the most un dishonest pieces

3890
03:41:04,920 --> 03:41:06,920
of trash. Out of here. I'm so sick of it.

3891
03:41:11,280 --> 03:41:25,360
Every Well, now I know why I blocked him, and

3892
03:41:25,479 --> 03:41:27,000
please go back and block him. I don't know every

3893
03:41:27,040 --> 03:41:29,200
want to talk to him again. I just I can't

3894
03:41:29,239 --> 03:41:48,440
take these people anymore. I'm mute, all right, he can't connect?

3895
03:41:54,040 --> 03:42:06,399
H I mean the pope literally prays in mosques towards Mecca,

3896
03:42:07,000 --> 03:42:12,280
and this guy is jumping through every hoop, leaps and

3897
03:42:12,399 --> 03:42:15,360
bounds in every possible mental gymnastics, which, by the way,

3898
03:42:15,719 --> 03:42:18,799
he never even gave any actual mental gymnastics. It was like, all,

3899
03:42:19,040 --> 03:42:21,440
just like, I don't think it's saying that. I don't

3900
03:42:21,479 --> 03:42:26,200
think that, dude, I don't care what you think. And again, like,

3901
03:42:26,280 --> 03:42:29,920
if you can't see this stuff, like, go be with Fransis,

3902
03:42:29,959 --> 03:42:34,159
then go be in your schedules church, Go put stuff

3903
03:42:34,200 --> 03:42:35,840
in your butt like all your other guys want to do.

3904
03:42:39,000 --> 03:42:40,760
That's what you guys want, that's the religion you want.

3905
03:42:40,840 --> 03:42:43,040
Go for it, man. I mean again, if you can't

3906
03:42:43,079 --> 03:42:48,479
see this, that this is in your face, like at

3907
03:42:48,479 --> 03:42:50,760
a certain point, there's nothing else that can be it

3908
03:42:50,840 --> 03:43:02,200
can be said, Is there anybody else? Be sure to

3909
03:43:02,239 --> 03:43:04,280
head over to chalk dot com. You're seeing me wear

3910
03:43:04,360 --> 03:43:17,639
the chalk dot com shirt. Chalk dot com. Be sure

3911
03:43:17,680 --> 03:43:19,680
and have another user go j forty four life to

3912
03:43:19,719 --> 03:43:23,000
get forty four all those all those great products, including

3913
03:43:23,280 --> 03:43:26,120
the performance stack there that includes the tonk Catale that's

3914
03:43:26,159 --> 03:43:32,600
my favorite. I highly recommend that if you don't keep

3915
03:43:32,600 --> 03:43:35,200
it on topic, Uh, you're booted. What do you want?

3916
03:43:36,440 --> 03:43:37,280
Speaker 7: Hello? Uh?

3917
03:43:38,559 --> 03:43:42,000
Speaker 29: Okay, So I wasn't really ready, but I'm gonna go

3918
03:43:42,280 --> 03:43:43,600
just because there's nobody else calling.

3919
03:43:43,840 --> 03:43:45,639
Speaker 6: You weren't ready. Why'd you request to speak if you

3920
03:43:45,680 --> 03:43:47,159
weren't ready, Well.

3921
03:43:47,079 --> 03:43:49,040
Speaker 17: Because you're I thought you were gonna leave, and I

3922
03:43:49,159 --> 03:43:51,479
wanted to ask you or just say a few things.

3923
03:43:52,399 --> 03:43:55,639
So now I got to regain my.

3924
03:43:58,680 --> 03:44:02,200
Speaker 15: All Right, So when you said natural theology, I mean,

3925
03:44:04,879 --> 03:44:05,559
I don't really know.

3926
03:44:06,159 --> 03:44:08,440
Speaker 6: What are you doing? Like, just trash and ship over there?

3927
03:44:09,520 --> 03:44:11,920
Get out of here. I can't do it, man, I'm sorry,

3928
03:44:11,959 --> 03:44:15,600
I can't. I just can't do this stuff anymore. Tonight.

3929
03:44:21,799 --> 03:44:24,680
Dues over there like wrecking his car crash and trying

3930
03:44:24,719 --> 03:44:30,520
to talk sounds like a sounds like a comedy comedy routine.

3931
03:44:31,200 --> 03:44:35,719
Dudes over there doing three three stooges. Uh is Bromco

3932
03:44:35,840 --> 03:44:38,040
J forty to get forty percent off those great products.

3933
03:44:38,360 --> 03:44:43,040
Head on over to chalk dot com. I'm not gonna

3934
03:44:43,319 --> 03:44:45,680
I'm not gonna do another hour on freaking natural theologoy man?

3935
03:44:46,079 --> 03:44:46,399
Speaker 7: What what?

3936
03:44:48,440 --> 03:44:48,719
Speaker 10: Hello?

3937
03:44:49,719 --> 03:44:49,760
Speaker 7: What?

3938
03:44:56,200 --> 03:44:56,239
Speaker 15: What?

3939
03:45:08,520 --> 03:45:10,520
Speaker 6: How many people were in here all the way? We

3940
03:45:10,559 --> 03:45:12,040
got up to almost two thousands to night. That was

3941
03:45:12,079 --> 03:45:16,440
pretty crazy. Anybody have any topics that are not natural theology.

3942
03:45:20,120 --> 03:45:23,440
I had nineteen hundred to That was my first unless

3943
03:45:23,680 --> 03:45:26,680
somebody dumped into the chat that I wasn't aware. Tonight

3944
03:45:26,840 --> 03:45:31,840
was I think our biggest, our biggest organic audience of

3945
03:45:31,959 --> 03:45:35,159
hitting nineteen hundred. But you know, I probably should stop

3946
03:45:35,520 --> 03:45:37,920
now because I'm getting getting a little too sassy. That

3947
03:45:37,959 --> 03:45:41,360
guy was getting me really frustrated because just the constant

3948
03:45:41,479 --> 03:45:45,200
of twose sassy, he wasn't actually being that mean. It

3949
03:45:45,280 --> 03:45:50,360
was just being so hard headed. Famine, famine, Sam.

3950
03:45:55,479 --> 03:45:56,000
Speaker 7: How's it going?

3951
03:45:56,079 --> 03:45:56,200
Speaker 19: Man?

3952
03:45:56,719 --> 03:45:57,159
Speaker 6: What's up?

3953
03:45:58,040 --> 03:46:01,799
Speaker 7: I was op with an argument today talking about God

3954
03:46:01,920 --> 03:46:04,680
created evil. I don't know if you'd be willing to

3955
03:46:04,719 --> 03:46:05,520
speak on that at all.

3956
03:46:07,159 --> 03:46:10,120
Speaker 6: Well, it's an impossibility because evil, in our view has

3957
03:46:10,159 --> 03:46:14,760
no substance or being or real real existence. It's a privation,

3958
03:46:15,040 --> 03:46:18,120
so it's not a thing. And therefore everything that God

3959
03:46:18,319 --> 03:46:21,520
created has being or substance. And God created everything and

3960
03:46:21,680 --> 03:46:23,879
declared it to be good. So there's no way that

3961
03:46:23,959 --> 03:46:27,200
God could create evil. You would be a Manichean if

3962
03:46:27,239 --> 03:46:27,600
you thought that.

3963
03:46:29,079 --> 03:46:33,680
Speaker 7: Oh okay, okay, so okay, could you maybe so?

3964
03:46:33,799 --> 03:46:35,639
Speaker 25: I hate to ask dumb the argument down a little

3965
03:46:35,639 --> 03:46:37,680
bit because I was hit with that from a Muslim today,

3966
03:46:37,680 --> 03:46:39,000
and I didn't really know how to combat it.

3967
03:46:39,079 --> 03:46:45,319
Speaker 6: But well, again, so if God creates evil, then God

3968
03:46:45,479 --> 03:46:48,319
is both evil and good because he's the source of

3969
03:46:48,360 --> 03:46:51,239
good and evil, and thus good and evil become relativized.

3970
03:46:51,639 --> 03:46:55,000
And that's probably why Islam says, yeah, Allah is the

3971
03:46:55,120 --> 03:46:58,479
greatest of deceivers. He's also the best at doing evil,

3972
03:46:58,719 --> 03:47:02,159
as he is good relativized as good and evil. It

3973
03:47:02,239 --> 03:47:05,799
makes the religion incoherent and nonsensical. And it's equivalent to

3974
03:47:05,959 --> 03:47:13,000
the ancient Zoroastrian dualist Manichean position that that good and

3975
03:47:13,239 --> 03:47:17,079
evil are kind of these eternal principles that exist. We

3976
03:47:17,239 --> 03:47:20,280
don't believe that evil has any substance. It's not a thing.

3977
03:47:20,760 --> 03:47:24,280
It's a privation, a lack an act against the good,

3978
03:47:24,879 --> 03:47:27,040
but it's not a thing that God created.

3979
03:47:28,079 --> 03:47:30,799
Speaker 25: Okay, do you have any I guess anyone you would

3980
03:47:30,920 --> 03:47:32,680
recommend specifically to read on it.

3981
03:47:35,280 --> 03:47:40,159
Speaker 6: Athanasius, the Church Fathers, they discuss the ontology of evil.

3982
03:47:43,079 --> 03:47:49,200
I think in Adgentes, Ethanaians discusses it. The Kappadian Is

3983
03:47:49,239 --> 03:47:50,799
discussed it, but I don't remember where else the top

3984
03:47:50,840 --> 03:48:01,000
of my head. I would just it got like, uh,

3985
03:48:01,479 --> 03:48:04,959
Church fathers on evil as privation or something like that,

3986
03:48:05,079 --> 03:48:07,000
and you would probably you probably get some good articles

3987
03:48:07,479 --> 03:48:08,200
on that, all right.

3988
03:48:10,040 --> 03:48:11,280
Speaker 7: Uh, not the.

3989
03:48:13,120 --> 03:48:15,200
Speaker 6: Series of debates that I thought we would have tonight.

3990
03:48:15,280 --> 03:48:17,760
They definitely went a different different direction that I expected.

3991
03:48:18,440 --> 03:48:23,959
Still very interesting discussion tonight, But thank you guys heading

3992
03:48:24,000 --> 03:48:25,799
over to talk dot com. Use promo co J forty

3993
03:48:25,840 --> 03:48:28,319
four Life, get access to those great products, and I

3994
03:48:28,399 --> 03:48:31,120
will see you soon, maybe tomorrow. We'll go back to

3995
03:48:31,200 --> 03:48:32,239
the normal stream.

3996
03:48:32,479 --> 03:48:32,600
Speaker 7: Uh.

3997
03:48:32,840 --> 03:48:35,959
Speaker 6: This was a diversion because because of Francis, so Frank

3998
03:48:36,680 --> 03:48:39,799
kept doubling down, so I thought I would open it

3999
03:48:39,920 --> 03:48:41,559
up for this. Everybody, have a good night.