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<v Speaker 1>Is this where Waldo first shows up?

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<v Speaker 2>More or less he'd been around for he Actually I

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<v Speaker 2>was using him even before I got published a little bit,

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<v Speaker 2>just because.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I couldn't draw that well, and I figured

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<v Speaker 3>I could.

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<v Speaker 2>Finesse a cartoon cat better than I could, Uh, human

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<v Speaker 2>figures and rubber hoses is fairwell, yeah, I mean that's

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<v Speaker 2>why they use so many black cats at old cartoons,

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<v Speaker 2>so very easy to draw.

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<v Speaker 3>That's where it started. Anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and

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<v Speaker 1>contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'm Joey Angelfield.

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<v Speaker 1>Producer engineer Mike Tomren is working somewhere behind the scenes.

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<v Speaker 1>Amusing Jews is a project of a Dat Kavareem Congregation

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<v Speaker 1>for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Music of the American West,

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<v Speaker 1>and Atheist United Studios. Hey, Joey. People have been telling

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<v Speaker 1>stories through pictures since the caveman days, but few have

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<v Speaker 1>told stories in pictures. Of how they tell stories through pictures,

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<v Speaker 1>That's where today's guest comes in.

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<v Speaker 4>We're honored to talk with Kim Ditsch, a prolific cartoonist

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<v Speaker 4>who's been making comics since the underground movement of the

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<v Speaker 4>nineteen sixties. His latest book is How I Make Comics,

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<v Speaker 4>published by Fantagraphics. Kim, Welcome to Amusing Jews.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you, thank you very much. I'm happy to be here.

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<v Speaker 4>Your father, Jean, was an animator for UPA and Terrytoons.

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<v Speaker 4>What was his influence on you growing up?

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<v Speaker 5>Oh, it's huge, Just the whole idea that, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>there's something great about leading a creative life. Yeah, that

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<v Speaker 5>was just pressed into me from the very beginning, and

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<v Speaker 5>I was very lucky. I both of my parents were

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<v Speaker 5>really fascinating people, and it couldn't have worked out better

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<v Speaker 5>for me. Sad to say, later on they were divorced,

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<v Speaker 5>but that just seemed to be what was going on

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<v Speaker 5>in those days.

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<v Speaker 1>What was it kind of magical to be raised around

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<v Speaker 1>art supplies?

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<v Speaker 5>It was magical. Yes. In fact, you know, for a

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<v Speaker 5>while my father was doing a comic strip. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>when you're drawing comics, it can get a little well

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<v Speaker 5>and some you're you're happy to have somebody to come

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<v Speaker 5>around and talk to you. And I think my father's

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<v Speaker 5>strip not only did it obviously pushed me in that direction,

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<v Speaker 5>but well it just brought us closer together.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh it's beautiful.

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<v Speaker 5>Oh yeah, well yeah, I had a great childhood and

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<v Speaker 5>there's no getting around it. You know, later on they

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<v Speaker 5>broke up, and you know, it wasn't so great for

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<v Speaker 5>my younger brothers, but for me, it really was kind

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<v Speaker 5>of magical.

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<v Speaker 1>You were one of the pioneers of underground comics. How

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<v Speaker 1>did you get involved in that scene.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, my younger brother, Simon, it was a big comic

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<v Speaker 5>book collector, and so I was in this wonderful position

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<v Speaker 5>because he got all these great old Golden Age comics

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<v Speaker 5>to thrill and pour over it, not to mention Marvel

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<v Speaker 5>comics that were coming out, and uh, I thought, well, geez, well,

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<v Speaker 5>Marvel Comics is never going to hire me. But you know,

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<v Speaker 5>I was showing my stuff to some of my colleagues

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<v Speaker 5>at one of my straight jobs, and I was going,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, this comics thing really fascinates me, but I

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<v Speaker 5>don't I'm not sure I can really draw well enough

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<v Speaker 5>to cut the mustard on that. And so this one

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<v Speaker 5>guy said, well, I don't know, it's better than Captain Hi.

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<v Speaker 5>And I said, Captain Hi, what's that? And he explained

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<v Speaker 5>to me that that was a comic strip that was

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<v Speaker 5>coming out in an underground newspaper called the Eastlach Other.

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<v Speaker 5>I went and took a look at them. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>I think I could compete with this, and so about

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<v Speaker 5>five hundred dollars saved up, I went down to the

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<v Speaker 5>Lower East Side see what I could do for myself.

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<v Speaker 5>And you know it was pretty interesting. You know, I

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<v Speaker 5>brought my work in the first time and the guy

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<v Speaker 5>at the East Village Others said, well, you know, this

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<v Speaker 5>is pretty good, but of course we're looking for something

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<v Speaker 5>more psychedelic, a big buzzword of the time. I thought, well, okay,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, I got to find a way to stay

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<v Speaker 5>alive anyway. So it turned out that one of the

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<v Speaker 5>people working at the East Village other who did Captain

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<v Speaker 5>I said that, you know, come over and see me.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, maybe I have some work for you. Well,

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<v Speaker 5>the work he had for me was he was dealing

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<v Speaker 5>dope and he sold me a lit of grass for openers,

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<v Speaker 5>and so well, you know, it was opportunity because yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, five hundred dollars is gonna last so long,

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<v Speaker 5>even though I was only paying thirty eight to fifteen

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<v Speaker 5>a months, right, But boy, I didn't know the hop

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<v Speaker 5>smell of the Lower East Side. I had to learn

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<v Speaker 5>in all the hard way, but so that you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>I started dealing to dope and I started, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>smoking some of that dope. Get more psychedelic. Brought three

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<v Speaker 5>comic strips that I'd done under those circumstances back to

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<v Speaker 5>the East Village other I flipped for them, not like

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<v Speaker 5>they were going to pay me or anything, but they

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<v Speaker 5>were willing to publish them. And it was almost the

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<v Speaker 5>most incredible thing that happened to me in those early days. Actually,

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<v Speaker 5>the more incredible thing was about a year later, after

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<v Speaker 5>I'd had my ups and downs with these each other.

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<v Speaker 5>The original owner, Walter Bowart, married one of the richest

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<v Speaker 5>women in the United States and was gone. And the

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<v Speaker 5>new guy that took over, you know, said, Kim would

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<v Speaker 5>like to have you back. And he said, wait a minute,

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<v Speaker 5>somebody gets Spain, my old friend Spain. Any your Spain?

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<v Speaker 5>And he said, Spain, don't I pay you forty dollars

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<v Speaker 5>a week to do a comic strip and an otherwise

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<v Speaker 5>do stuff on Paced up nine stuff? He said, yeah, man,

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<v Speaker 5>sure do need but to me and said that could

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<v Speaker 5>be you too, And that was like that was my

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<v Speaker 5>big break. You know, not only was I gonna be

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<v Speaker 5>working for the East Village over again, but I was

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<v Speaker 5>going to get paid forty dollars a wait. Plus there

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<v Speaker 5>was looking to fringe benefits. We could charge art supplies

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<v Speaker 5>and stuff. We could go down to the Steve Paul

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<v Speaker 5>scene and see all the big rock and roll stars.

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<v Speaker 5>It was fantast What can I say?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you have any formal art training or was it

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<v Speaker 1>all picked up along the way.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, besides watching my father make comics. At a certain point,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, it was time for me to graduate from

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<v Speaker 5>high school and my mother said, well, Kim, you know

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<v Speaker 5>you're graduating high school. What do you think do you

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<v Speaker 5>want to do? I said, well, you know, ma, I

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<v Speaker 5>kind of like to maybe just bum around and you

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<v Speaker 5>know like that. She said that didn't go over big,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, so I went. I put in two years

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<v Speaker 5>at Pratt Institute. I almost flunked out the first year.

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<v Speaker 5>The second year I kind of had it all together

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<v Speaker 5>and I guess I could have gone on. But then

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<v Speaker 5>one day I was out drinking at a bar and

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<v Speaker 5>I bumped into the sky. It was a Norwegian seamen

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<v Speaker 5>and he told me about how easy it was to

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<v Speaker 5>ship out Merchant Marine. That sounded like that would really

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<v Speaker 5>be something to see a little bit of the world.

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<v Speaker 5>Plus you know all those all those prostitutes and stuff,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, So that's what happened. I ended up shipping

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<v Speaker 5>out got out to Japan, which was like just where

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<v Speaker 5>a twenty year old guy wants to be, you know.

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<v Speaker 5>That was that was pretty great. I kept up my

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<v Speaker 5>union dudes for several years after that, and these village

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<v Speaker 5>other happened. You know. I was actually back at Pratt

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<v Speaker 5>Instant for a lot of thought, well, you know, maybe

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<v Speaker 5>in night school I could get my degree and see

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<v Speaker 5>where that took me. I didn't have to do that,

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<v Speaker 5>you know. Instead, pretty soon I'm making forty dollars a

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<v Speaker 5>week at the East Village door. That was a great

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<v Speaker 5>you know, it doesn't sound like much. That was a

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<v Speaker 5>great opportunity and I made all I could out of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that that's like four times your monthly rent, so

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<v Speaker 1>I thought it was a significant amount of money.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, Well it didn't stay thirty eight to fifty Finally

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<v Speaker 5>that place. I ended up at a place that was

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<v Speaker 5>like fifty dollars a week. But then I my friend Spain,

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<v Speaker 5>who was working at the East village door. He wanted

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<v Speaker 5>some place to live, so he said, hey, man, one

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<v Speaker 5>should let me move in with you. And boy, that's

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<v Speaker 5>when things were really happened. And it really was happening.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean I I was not incredibly lucky. What can

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<v Speaker 5>I tell you?

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<v Speaker 1>Where do that psychedelic style come from? Because when they

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<v Speaker 1>when they told you you needed to draw in a

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<v Speaker 1>more psychedelic way.

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<v Speaker 5>I was selling weed, so I was smoking a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of it too.

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<v Speaker 1>I know there's sort of a stereotypical, archetypal image of

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<v Speaker 1>psychedelica or whatever you might call it. Did that originate

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<v Speaker 1>with any individual or was that just kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>collective thing.

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<v Speaker 5>I think it was just kind of a collective thing,

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<v Speaker 5>you know. You know the interesting thing that influences are

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<v Speaker 5>a lot though with me, Like you know von Baudet,

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<v Speaker 5>remember him. The thing about that was all the graffiti

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<v Speaker 5>you see these days, not that style. I think I

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<v Speaker 5>got a lot of it from von Baudet. It's very similar.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think even if they don't realize that's where

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<v Speaker 1>it's coming from. It sort of seeped into the culture.

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<v Speaker 5>Every time I see something down the street like that

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<v Speaker 5>Ohn or Bastard. Yeah, he came to this city, and

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<v Speaker 5>the whole thing is you live up Hebrews Troy, I

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<v Speaker 5>think in Troy, upstate, New York. And was a pretty

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<v Speaker 5>straight guy, you know, and he just wasn't ready for

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<v Speaker 5>the the whole hippie thing. Well then he finally got ready.

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<v Speaker 5>I turned into a transvest and God was dead at

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<v Speaker 5>about the age of thirty four. It was really tragic

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<v Speaker 5>because he was a nice guy too. These village others

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<v Speaker 5>decided to have an all comics magazine. At first they

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<v Speaker 5>left him in charge of it, but he just caught

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<v Speaker 5>it came to me, he said, Kim, I can't take it.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, this is just too much for me. This

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<v Speaker 5>even before he's a transvestite and uh so the boss

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<v Speaker 5>of evil. He just come into our own here. Said listen,

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<v Speaker 5>I got this magazine going, guess what. You're the editor,

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<v Speaker 5>And I said, you gotta another guy's name on there,

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<v Speaker 5>and Peter and Jerry is theater. He said, listen. My

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<v Speaker 5>offer to you is he doesn't even see the magazine

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<v Speaker 5>until it's printed. So I gave it a shot, you know.

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<v Speaker 5>So suddenly from forty dollars a week, if I could

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<v Speaker 5>do all the work, I was making ninety dollars a week,

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<v Speaker 5>except it was a rare week and I actually did

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<v Speaker 5>everything and my boss joined take great play, dogging me

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<v Speaker 5>down to about fifty dollars a week. But let me

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<v Speaker 5>tell you, he was a great guy, and to this

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<v Speaker 5>day I honor his memory as if anybody gave me

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<v Speaker 5>a break in this world in the biz, it was him.

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<v Speaker 1>Enjoining the show.

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<v Speaker 4>Click like and subscribe. Is it fair to say that

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<v Speaker 4>you share an interest in Lost Americana with fellow underground

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<v Speaker 4>legend Robert Crumb?

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<v Speaker 5>Oh? Yeah, I've always been kind of interested in the

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<v Speaker 5>old days and the old times and nostalgia, if you will.

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<v Speaker 5>That's certainly true.

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<v Speaker 1>Was that maybe a product of your exposure a Golden

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<v Speaker 1>Age comics? Or was there stuff in your home? Like

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<v Speaker 1>growing up?

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<v Speaker 5>Everything just worked out kind of magically for me in

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<v Speaker 5>terms of influences, you know, my upbringing in all and

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<v Speaker 5>all the sadder that you know, somehow didn't work out

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<v Speaker 5>so good for my brother Simon, who got me into

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<v Speaker 5>it and it's now dead, and my brother Seth, who

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<v Speaker 5>isn't exactly doing great financially. I've been a lucky bastard,

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<v Speaker 5>what can I tell you? And I'm grateful. I'm very grateful.

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<v Speaker 5>I've I've had advantages. I tried to make the most

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<v Speaker 5>of them. Still at it miraculous.

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<v Speaker 1>You still seem to be pretty prolific.

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<v Speaker 5>I'd like to think, so, you know, I know, if

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<v Speaker 5>I stop, well what I do. Yeah, it's like and

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<v Speaker 5>besides it's it's it's fascinating, you know, I definitely want

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<v Speaker 5>to keep doing it, you know, I could. I'm working

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<v Speaker 5>on something right over there. It's a computer. I'm doing

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<v Speaker 5>a lot of photoshop right now on a story that

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<v Speaker 5>is about how I got my start and art. Actually,

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<v Speaker 5>it'll probably be about I don't know, forty seven pages.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm not exactly sure because I've sort of put it

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<v Speaker 5>on the hold while I'm doing a bunch of color

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<v Speaker 5>stuff for that story, because I got a nice opportunity

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<v Speaker 5>over in France to have a book put out of

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<v Speaker 5>what I'm doing right now. So I'm yeah, things are

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<v Speaker 5>a little a little unusual at the moment, but the

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<v Speaker 5>work is happening. Couldn't be happier about that.

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<v Speaker 1>In a Comics Journal interview you did several years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>you describe your style as an attempt at trying to

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<v Speaker 1>draw as realistically as possible and being basically a primitive artist.

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<v Speaker 1>That's just what comes out. Does that discrete still hold?

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<v Speaker 5>It's a fair thing. I like to think I'm getting

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<v Speaker 5>to be a better drawer, but.

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<v Speaker 1>I wasn't.

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<v Speaker 5>I wasn't trying to be cute when I said that,

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<v Speaker 5>just a fair introspective, trying to give a straight answer

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<v Speaker 5>to what you see from me. Still working on it.

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<v Speaker 5>I think I'm getting better as an artist. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 5>but it was never I was always going to be,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, a writer who draws and not the other

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<v Speaker 5>way around. That's I think that's fair to say.

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<v Speaker 1>Also, how do you describe that sort of positioning a

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<v Speaker 1>writer who draws? Could you elaborate a little on that?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, it just means that I think I probably that's

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<v Speaker 5>my bigger skill. You know, when I was younger and

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<v Speaker 5>I was just getting ready ready to go to Pratt Institute,

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<v Speaker 5>I went over to check with Proble to visit my

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<v Speaker 5>father and he said, you know, Kim, when I was

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<v Speaker 5>your age, I could draw circles around here. Are you

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<v Speaker 5>sure this is really what you want to do? Well?

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<v Speaker 5>I wasn't really sure, but I said, yeah, Dad, I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, I think I got something going on to that.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank God, it sort of seemed to be true because

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<v Speaker 5>put a little doubt in my mind. But I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>at least you lived long enough to see I made

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<v Speaker 5>a go of it, which I'm very proud of, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>because what if you'd live long enough to see I

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<v Speaker 5>didn't make a god, that wouldn't be so hot. So

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<v Speaker 5>you know, he was the great guy too. I miss him.

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<v Speaker 1>I think in alternative comics in particular, it's almost more

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<v Speaker 1>important to have a distinctive style than to be perfect

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<v Speaker 1>in your drawing anyway, So the way that you approach it,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I can recognize your work whenever I'm flipping

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<v Speaker 1>through something, and so you know the fact that it's

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<v Speaker 1>not photorealistic or you're not copying anybody else's style is

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<v Speaker 1>just coming from your own imagination that certainly comes through.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it is what it is. You know. It's me

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<v Speaker 5>trying to do the best I can as an artist,

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<v Speaker 5>and uh, thank god somebody else likes it to where

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<v Speaker 5>would I be otherwise?

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<v Speaker 4>You know.

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<v Speaker 5>So it's been, it's been really fantastic and still is.

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<v Speaker 4>What can you tell us about your new very meta book,

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<v Speaker 4>How I Make Comics?

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<v Speaker 5>The thing about that was, when I mean, when I

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<v Speaker 5>made that title up. I just thought it was a

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<v Speaker 5>fun title. I thought, you know, I was telling people

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<v Speaker 5>for a long time. Well, look, you know, that's that's

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<v Speaker 5>just a catchy title I came up with because it's

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<v Speaker 5>not really a how to book, but you know, it

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<v Speaker 5>is sort of a how to book, because you know

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<v Speaker 5>what the book, what's going on in the book, it's

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<v Speaker 5>me pitching one story after and out of my wife,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, and which is exactly what goes on around

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<v Speaker 5>here usually it happens on Saturday mornings, and so really

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<v Speaker 5>it is how I make comics, much to my own

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<v Speaker 5>personal surprise. So yeah, subconsciously, you must, I must have

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<v Speaker 5>realized this is more spot on than I was really

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<v Speaker 5>giving myself credit for Initially.

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<v Speaker 1>How I make comics gives us a front row seat

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<v Speaker 1>to your creative process in a way I haven't seen before,

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<v Speaker 1>in the sense that you are even going back and

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<v Speaker 1>revising comics based on your wife's feedback and all of

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<v Speaker 1>that as well.

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<v Speaker 5>She's practically a collaborator. I mean, it's really very close

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<v Speaker 5>to being like that. You know, she's smart, very creative herself.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, that's my greatest fortune of all in this

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<v Speaker 5>world that I'm married to this terrific woman.

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<v Speaker 1>Were you at all self conscious about putting so much

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<v Speaker 1>of your brain on the page?

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<v Speaker 5>Not really. I mean, if I see a good angle

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<v Speaker 5>for a story, man, I'm going to go for it,

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<v Speaker 5>because they're not that easy to come up with it that,

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<v Speaker 5>you know. So look, hey, and like I say about

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<v Speaker 5>every Saturday morning, I showed him everything I've been doing. No,

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<v Speaker 5>because she's a good judge, you know, And if it

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<v Speaker 5>isn't working for her, then I know I'm in trouble.

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<v Speaker 5>And you know, maybe I'll do something and maybe I

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<v Speaker 5>can figure out something to do about that. So it's

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<v Speaker 5>very much a collaborative thing. And this happens.

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<v Speaker 1>And did Fantagraphics just give you a blank slate and

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<v Speaker 1>say whatever you do is fine with us pretty much?

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<v Speaker 5>You know. Gary Groth is a great guy to work for,

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<v Speaker 5>and I feel tremendous loyalty towards him because you know,

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<v Speaker 5>he's I've had them all had good, bad and different.

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<v Speaker 5>Gary's really something and I'll be there working for him

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<v Speaker 5>as long as he wants me working for him. I'm

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<v Speaker 5>not gonna you know, I did jump ship. I went

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<v Speaker 5>to Pantheon Books for a couple of books. But even

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<v Speaker 5>then it's sort of funny, like, so I had a

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<v Speaker 5>book coming out with Pantheon, but I was also doing

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<v Speaker 5>a fantagraphics The Fanographics book was better, so that taught

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<v Speaker 5>me something too. No, they're wonderful people at Fantagraphics, and

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<v Speaker 5>Gary is a terrific guy.

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<v Speaker 1>It does seem to be like a one of one

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<v Speaker 1>kind of experience for artists who work at or work

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<v Speaker 1>with Fanographics, in the sense that they're very nurturing. They

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<v Speaker 1>want to support what you're doing. They're not as concerned

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<v Speaker 1>about sales as maybe some other publishers. They just want art.

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<v Speaker 5>Because you know, it's not like I'm a world beater

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<v Speaker 5>of sales selling. But oh no, it seems to be

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<v Speaker 5>getting a little better. So but no, all hail Panagravit

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<v Speaker 5>Gary growth. As long as they're there for me, I'm

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<v Speaker 5>there for them, and you know, yeah, maybe I go

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<v Speaker 5>off and do this or that after somebody else, but

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<v Speaker 5>not in any permanent way. I mean, I'm just so

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<v Speaker 5>amazed and still doing it at all.

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<v Speaker 4>You in the book with an interesting concept proactive humility,

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<v Speaker 4>could you explain.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, it's simply explained. I mean to me, what proactive

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<v Speaker 5>humility means is you want to be humble, but you

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<v Speaker 5>don't want to be so humble that you're putting yourself

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<v Speaker 5>out of business. You know, Oh g you were my

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<v Speaker 5>I have nothing and then you're so you're nothing, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>So yeah, yeah, humble, Okay, great, But you know, humble

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<v Speaker 5>working too, that's all that really means. I coined that phrase.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm very proud of that. But I don't know if

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<v Speaker 5>we'll catch on or not. But it has a meaning.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, it's explainable.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know there's that are are you humbled by

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<v Speaker 1>your own career? I know that you're grateful that you're

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<v Speaker 1>still doing it, but the fact that you are still

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<v Speaker 1>doing it and that you can look back at your

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<v Speaker 1>catalog of all the work you've done over the years,

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<v Speaker 1>is that a humbling thing?

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<v Speaker 5>I think so? I think so. I'm very grateful for

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<v Speaker 5>the way out everything's worked out. And then you know,

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<v Speaker 5>I got behind it, got to get behind you. Look,

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<v Speaker 5>of course, no, I've had a terrific life and I

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<v Speaker 5>got a terrific wife. I mean, what more do you want?

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<v Speaker 5>You could want more, but you know it gets a

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<v Speaker 5>little ridiculous at a certain point.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks so much Kim for joining us.

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<v Speaker 5>My pleasure I enjoyed myself and to our audience.

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<v Speaker 1>Now back to your regularly scheduled lives.

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<v Speaker 4>Amusing Jews is here to amuse you. If you like

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<v Speaker 4>being amused, go ahead and click like and subscribe.

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<v Speaker 5>See you later, baby,