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<v Speaker 1>Hey, welcome to another segment of the nonprofits and Eli

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<v Speaker 1>Slack is going to take us on a step step

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<v Speaker 1>step step step step step in the right direction.

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<v Speaker 2>Go ahead, you LII.

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<v Speaker 3>So in twenty twenty one, the Southern Baptist Convention had

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<v Speaker 3>just under thirteen point seven million members, and over the

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<v Speaker 3>past four years that number has fallen by just about

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<v Speaker 3>nine hundred and sixty thousand to now just over twelve

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<v Speaker 3>point seven million members. Pastors boast about how new member

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<v Speaker 3>baptisms are increasing, seemingly to provide the illusion that things

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<v Speaker 3>are not only well but flourishing. But after losing almost

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<v Speaker 3>half a million members in twenty twenty two, they've never

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<v Speaker 3>fully recovered from the pandemic and continue to lose about

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<v Speaker 3>half that many people each year since. I wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 3>concerned though, if I was the SBC, because what's a

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<v Speaker 3>million people when you've got twelve more of those? This

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<v Speaker 3>story is from The Friendly Atheist by him and Meta

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<v Speaker 3>on May first, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, if you've lost one to twelve of

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<v Speaker 1>them over that shorter period, that's that might be something

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<v Speaker 1>that might.

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<v Speaker 2>Be a little bit alarming.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things that I do find funny about

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<v Speaker 1>this story is that you see so many Internet Christians

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<v Speaker 1>on TikTok, YouTube and other platforms, social platforms who keep

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<v Speaker 1>telling us over and over and over about how fat

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<v Speaker 1>Christianity is growing, you know, and obviously they're ignoring all

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<v Speaker 1>of the data. I mean, I like all of the data.

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<v Speaker 1>I've actually had this very conversation with several Christians online

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<v Speaker 1>and they're totally convernent.

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<v Speaker 2>They're totally convinced the church is growing.

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<v Speaker 1>And to be fair, and I mean, we even had

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation I'm not sure if on the show earlier

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<v Speaker 1>this week or it was in between tapings about how

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<v Speaker 1>Christianity is growing in Africa. Protestantism is through placing Catholicism

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<v Speaker 1>in many places in South America. But here in the USA,

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<v Speaker 1>the churches are definitely is shrinking and have been for

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<v Speaker 1>decades now.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know where these people get this.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Jason, I know you've been keeping an eye on

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<v Speaker 1>Pew Research polls related to this topic.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you have any news or views on that research?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think I might disagree with you. I think

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of what's going on with the Southern Baptist Convention,

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<v Speaker 4>what we're seeing is people dying. Honestly, the SBC is

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<v Speaker 4>generally stalked by a lot of older folks, generally my

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<v Speaker 4>grandparents who have passed age and older, you know, a

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<v Speaker 4>little bit younger late sixties, early seventies, eighties, So we're

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<v Speaker 4>seeing that happen a lot. Also, the church is growing

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<v Speaker 4>exponentially globally. I mean, I say, you know, we talk

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<v Speaker 4>about Africa, but we forget that this is a global world.

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<v Speaker 4>So when you look at the Pew research, it's not

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<v Speaker 4>only Africa, but it's the majority of developing nations versus

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<v Speaker 4>developed nations. The majority of developing nations right now are

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<v Speaker 4>experiencing not only a population surge, but that correlates to

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<v Speaker 4>a religion surge. And it's very fundamentalist, traditionalist, authoritarian religiosity

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<v Speaker 4>that is proliferating Pew Research views I think by twenty sixty.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean again, you can go on it, so please

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<v Speaker 4>don't quote me. So I'm just a guy pulling it

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<v Speaker 4>out of my brain or ass or whatever. But it's

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<v Speaker 4>religion will be is a dominant force in this world. Also,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think it matters that adherence to a specific

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<v Speaker 4>denomination is depleting because when we see the current social

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<v Speaker 4>shift and political shift, and who people who are listening

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<v Speaker 4>to and adhering to it is a cult of personality

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<v Speaker 4>that is fueled by a non denominational fundamentalist foundation. So

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<v Speaker 4>I think any belief that religiosity is lowering and or

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<v Speaker 4>losing traction, I think is an uninformed belief, and I

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<v Speaker 4>think it is inherently false and can be easily demonstrable

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<v Speaker 4>and should be feared.

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<v Speaker 1>Ye on good points, I mean argue with that. Well

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<v Speaker 1>I could, but you're bigger than me. So, Town, I

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<v Speaker 1>was looking through your notes and I noticed there was

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<v Speaker 1>a quote from a really wise and super intelligent person

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<v Speaker 1>in there. You want to talk about that for a moment,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, not the quote or the quote, not the

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<v Speaker 1>incredibly talented person who made the quote, but the quote.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, well, he who shall remain nameless I will paraphrase

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<v Speaker 5>in my own words, and that for a long time now,

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<v Speaker 5>this particular individual of my acquaintance has been saying, we

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<v Speaker 5>are witnessing the desperate attempt to cling to power by

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<v Speaker 5>religion as it enters its dying throws. After what Jason

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<v Speaker 5>just said, Actually, it doesn't surprise me that the nations

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<v Speaker 5>that have been dealing with this evangelical, authoritarian religious thing

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<v Speaker 5>other than Islam, which used to be the fastest growing

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<v Speaker 5>religion on the planet. I don't know if it still is.

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<v Speaker 5>I think there's a few others that might be making headway,

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<v Speaker 5>But it is hard to say that religion is dying.

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<v Speaker 5>But I think in the developed world it is because

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<v Speaker 5>people are just figuring out that there's not a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of truth value to it, and they're eventually, as we've

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<v Speaker 5>seen with a lot of the people we've I've seen

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<v Speaker 5>deconverting or starting to deconvert. The reasons they have for

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<v Speaker 5>doing that are fairly valid. So I think that what

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<v Speaker 5>we're going to have to do is we need to

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<v Speaker 5>allow allow people to see whether or not this religion

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<v Speaker 5>they're doing is valuable enough to them to forego the

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<v Speaker 5>truth of what their life actually is. But we also

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<v Speaker 5>have to keep pointing out that it's not helping. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>there these are some desperate people in some of these countries,

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<v Speaker 5>and desperate in a way that Americans just can't not

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<v Speaker 5>under us. Americans cannot understand. If you've been in any

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<v Speaker 5>of these places, you'll see what I'm talking about. I

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<v Speaker 5>have lived in other countries and I can tell you

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<v Speaker 5>that unless they're developed world, yeah, it can be pretty rough.

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<v Speaker 5>And that is the understatement of the year. So I

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<v Speaker 5>the fact that people take solace in that horrible condition

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<v Speaker 5>to it by a religion, or if that religion gives

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<v Speaker 5>them some advantage in the political power structure they're in,

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<v Speaker 5>so that they can pull themselves out of the of

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<v Speaker 5>the shithole that they're living in at least a little bit,

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<v Speaker 5>or maybe get another meal out of it, because they

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<v Speaker 5>live meal to meal, not day to day. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>I think that it's a tragic situation, but if a

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<v Speaker 5>religion can give them some sort of hope, then I'm

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<v Speaker 5>not so sure. I'm against that. You know, as a humanist,

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<v Speaker 5>I think people need to grab onto whatever they can

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<v Speaker 5>in those situations to pull themselves out of it. Help you,

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<v Speaker 5>help people around them pull themselves out of it, and

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<v Speaker 5>we should be doing an awful lot more to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>I was curious, John, so I looked it up, and

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<v Speaker 1>Islam is still considered the fastest growing religion, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>mostly because of higher birth rates. So that's what I've

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<v Speaker 1>been saying, Yeah, not because of conversion. And interestingly enough,

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<v Speaker 1>though seventy seven percent of new converts into Islam are

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<v Speaker 1>Christians or ex Christians.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought that was kind of an interesting statistic called

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what it means. It's a power but

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<v Speaker 2>it's an interesting Now.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a power up move. It really is, due to

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<v Speaker 4>the concessions given to men and authority and family structure.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a power up move with more theater, more authoritarian liberties.

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<v Speaker 5>That's what it is, which Christianity has gradually lost compared

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<v Speaker 5>to Islam. Though, if you go back into an Islamic situation, yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>If you read it all back, if you read The

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<v Speaker 4>Temptation to Exist by em Chiorian, really good book, one

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<v Speaker 4>of my favorite books. He discusses kind of the rise

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<v Speaker 4>and fall of civilizations and power struck sures and different

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<v Speaker 4>structures within the structures, and it just follows suit I'm sure.

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<v Speaker 4>And The Temptation to Exists hands down, it's one of

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<v Speaker 4>the few I've read it over multiple times. It's an

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<v Speaker 4>amazing book. That was so cool.

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<v Speaker 1>I love that the article and Eli it is opening

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned that there was a ten percent rise in baptisms.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, now my first thought was.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so baptists had ten percent more kids, right, I

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<v Speaker 1>mean just because you baptized your baby doesn't mean they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to stay a Baptist their whole life.

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<v Speaker 2>Does anybody have any thoughts on that?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, so, so as I understand its, Southern Baptist convention

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<v Speaker 3>is that baptism is a conscious choice. I think Baptists

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<v Speaker 3>don't baptize babies.

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<v Speaker 6>They don't. They don't accept that.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you that's that, that's and I I'm sorry

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<v Speaker 1>if I misunderstood that.

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<v Speaker 6>No fair enough.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think too though that like I think that

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<v Speaker 3>I agree that the rise in baptisms is a non

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<v Speaker 3>data point, like it's a it's a non issue because

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<v Speaker 3>basically what they're doing is they're.

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<v Speaker 6>Like, oh, like we're like, we're we're losing numbers.

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<v Speaker 3>Either it's because like their members are passing away, or

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<v Speaker 3>you know, people aren't joining and you know they just

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<v Speaker 3>never came back after the COVID pandemic, whatever the case is.

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<v Speaker 3>They're like, we need a way to lock in some

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<v Speaker 3>of these members. If we get them to if we

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<v Speaker 3>like pressure them to get baptized, then we can pressure

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<v Speaker 3>them to be here, Like you kind of committed to

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<v Speaker 3>this now, so like you're a member of the church. NU,

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<v Speaker 3>So I think it's it's publicity. Basically, it's internal publicity

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<v Speaker 3>to be like, you know, like everything is fine, like

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<v Speaker 3>to not encourage others or to not give others the

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<v Speaker 3>idea of also leaving the church.

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<v Speaker 4>One thing that I think would be interesting, And I

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<v Speaker 4>mean this is a speculation, but I grew up Southern Baptists,

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<v Speaker 4>and a big part of Southern Baptists kind of lore

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<v Speaker 4>is the whole idea of like rededicating yourself to Christ

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<v Speaker 4>kind of re the idea of backsliding is a big part.

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<v Speaker 4>So it would make sense to me that during COVID,

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<v Speaker 4>if people quote straight away from God that you generally

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<v Speaker 4>do you go get rebaptized, you do it in front

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<v Speaker 4>of people, because it involves a lot of like doing

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<v Speaker 4>things in front of people holding accountable. I grew up

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<v Speaker 4>in a boat again, That's how I grew up, So

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<v Speaker 4>it would make sense to me that if people slipped

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<v Speaker 4>away quote unquote during COVID and they're rededicating, they're doing baptisms,

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<v Speaker 4>it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it sort of like a rebirth.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a rebirth. It's just a ritual that seems to

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<v Speaker 4>be kind of typical within the Southern Baptist community. You

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<v Speaker 4>there's a lot of like social shaming involved, and you

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<v Speaker 4>always have to tell everybody about everything about you, even

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<v Speaker 4>though it's not really the things you did, but it is,

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<v Speaker 4>but it isn't. It's just it's a whole game.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's kind of like cleaning your sleep.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's just like it's like re like married couples

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<v Speaker 4>who do their vows again in ten years and then

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<v Speaker 4>do their vows again in ten years and hey, I

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<v Speaker 4>just want to let you know that I'm still with you, babe,

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<v Speaker 4>type of thing. That's kind of what it is.

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<v Speaker 3>Jesus forgiveness war off because they didn't give enough money

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<v Speaker 3>to the church in a certain amount of time, so

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<v Speaker 3>they need more of Jesus's forgiveness so they can keep

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<v Speaker 3>getting money that they try.

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<v Speaker 4>Or Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's what it truly is.

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<v Speaker 4>But the way you think it is is that you're

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<v Speaker 4>the one who wore off. And the reason you don't

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<v Speaker 4>feel it is because you need to rededicate it and

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<v Speaker 4>you were back slid in and you have to get

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<v Speaker 4>right with God, and it's all these little catchphrases and

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<v Speaker 4>then you have to go up and like humble yourself

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<v Speaker 4>in front of the congregation where really it's just it's

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<v Speaker 4>a it's a narcissistic shaming technique. It's just a way

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<v Speaker 4>to devalue you back into your heart. Yeah, by by

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<v Speaker 4>prostrating yourself in front of people and letting some person

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<v Speaker 4>tell you about yourself. And yeah, it's really fucked up.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't like it.

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<v Speaker 6>Put your body fully underwater, that makes.

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<v Speaker 4>Me so uncom Yeah, let another person push you underwater,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's its total kick. It's like subcink shit. Man,

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<v Speaker 4>It's just nobody really, it's like voyeurism and subkink stuff,

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<v Speaker 4>and nobody wants to admit what it really is.

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<v Speaker 2>Waterboarded For Jesus.

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<v Speaker 4>It sounds hot. I mean he was a carpenter and

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<v Speaker 4>he was a you know, Mediterranean guy. So I'm sure

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<v Speaker 4>you're just fucking ripped. Try to do is fucking sexy,

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<v Speaker 4>but you know, it's neither here nor there. I'm getting distracted.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, you know, I really like this article. It was

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<v Speaker 1>pretty comprehensive. One of the things I think hadn't really

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<v Speaker 1>summed up the whole thing. I think in one sentence

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<v Speaker 1>when he wrote, instead of addressing the actual problem, the

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<v Speaker 1>spc's members are focused on how to rearrange the deck

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<v Speaker 1>chairs out of the Titanic. I thought that was a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty good quote. But he does go on the list

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<v Speaker 1>several things. But what do you all think is responsible

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<v Speaker 1>for the overall decline in the SBC church attendance in

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<v Speaker 1>the USA.

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<v Speaker 4>I think they're busy on the internet with their new religion.

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<v Speaker 4>I think all they're doing is just playing musical fucking chairs.

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<v Speaker 4>At this point, I don't think there's any room to celebrate.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think there's any room for optimism. I don't

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<v Speaker 4>think that we should even think these people are not

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<v Speaker 4>Christian or losing any faith. They're just buying into the

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<v Speaker 4>new thing. They're modernizing their beliefs. Also, there's a die

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<v Speaker 4>off of people, but yet religiosity is booming, immigration is booming,

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<v Speaker 4>globalization and time space compression is booming. So we can't

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<v Speaker 4>view this as like as a rock or an island.

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<v Speaker 4>This is a global community with no borders at this point.

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<v Speaker 4>So what we're seeing is more people at home, but

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<v Speaker 4>they're still obsessing over the religious fucking algorithm that is

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<v Speaker 4>at this point religiously charged in the United States, so

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<v Speaker 4>are or politically charged, but religious religio political religio however

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<v Speaker 4>you want to put it so I can't. All they're

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<v Speaker 4>doing is just shifting chairs. I don't think there's a decline.

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<v Speaker 4>I think there's an increase. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And well we know there's a decline though, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>we do not I mean.

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<v Speaker 4>To a group.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, but the amount of nuns has risen considerably.

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<v Speaker 2>Not affiliated, right, not no.

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<v Speaker 4>Belief iligious, They're not affiliated.

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<v Speaker 6>You point that out there, Kelly.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's what I said, that decline of the church,

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<v Speaker 1>the church, the DeLine of religion, I said, the decline

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<v Speaker 1>of the church.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, the kline of the church really means nothing at

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<v Speaker 4>this point, is probably even scarier because I would rather

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<v Speaker 4>a church body overseeing some people. When you go rogue,

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<v Speaker 4>you start doing a bunch of weird nuanced ship and

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<v Speaker 4>that's where cults form, because you take the original thing

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<v Speaker 4>and then you bastardize it and take and make it

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<v Speaker 4>like a cut here different this way and a cut

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<v Speaker 4>hair different that way. But that's how you do fucking cults.

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<v Speaker 4>So all we have now are a bunch of fucking

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<v Speaker 4>cults everywhere, which eventually merge into a cults of personality.

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<v Speaker 4>The religiosity, if anything, increases at that point, because you're

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<v Speaker 4>sucking a fucking a ball of reinforced dog shit.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think is when one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>most responsible for it that the the church.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm not sure that I know that I know, Like

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<v Speaker 6>the number.

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<v Speaker 2>One I said was church attendance, actually.

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<v Speaker 3>My notes, and I'll answer that because it's quicker, but

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<v Speaker 3>I want to I I have something to say about

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<v Speaker 3>what Jason said too. I think that Hemmant gave a

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<v Speaker 3>really good kind of breakdown in the in the article

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<v Speaker 3>that he wrote about it. You know, in between two

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<v Speaker 3>thousand or in twenty twenty one, they had the thirteen

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<v Speaker 3>point six eight million. In twenty twenty two it dropped

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<v Speaker 3>by four hundred and fifty thousand roughly, and then by

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<v Speaker 3>by two hundred and forty thousand, and then two hundred

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<v Speaker 3>and sixty thousand in the two U proceded or succeeding years,

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<v Speaker 3>so and then he had the number. I don't think, uh,

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<v Speaker 3>it's it remains at twelve point seven for so far

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<v Speaker 3>this year roughly. So.

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<v Speaker 6>I think the.

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<v Speaker 3>Big part of it was the COVID pandemic, and people

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<v Speaker 3>have just as Jason said, they're kind of like modernizing,

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<v Speaker 3>like people sort of doing virtual online churches. They're like, wait,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't have to get up like two hours early

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<v Speaker 3>to get my whole. I don't have to dress up exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't have to iron these clothes. I don't have

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<v Speaker 3>to come home and like you know, were these close

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<v Speaker 3>a few times and then like steam press them or

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<v Speaker 3>dry clean them.

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<v Speaker 6>So that like I don't have to be the all

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<v Speaker 6>the gossip exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>It's more can be more comfortable and more you know,

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<v Speaker 3>at home, worshiping at home.

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<v Speaker 6>Right, So that's what they're doing.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think that the I think the decline in

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<v Speaker 3>the numbers.

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<v Speaker 6>They're their power is in their numbers.

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<v Speaker 4>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>So Ashmittt mentioned the SBC is responsible for like mission

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<v Speaker 3>tripes where people go and like build houses, but only

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<v Speaker 3>if you learn about God first, as if they've never

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<v Speaker 3>like they don't worship yahweh in South America or you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they they they lobby against anti LGBTQ or sorry, they

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<v Speaker 3>lobby against LGBTQ, IA plus people against women and marginalized

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<v Speaker 3>groups and all these things reproductive rights. So the thing

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<v Speaker 3>is that and why I said at the beginning that

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<v Speaker 3>if half of the SBC churches close down because they

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<v Speaker 3>lose too many members. That's going to be their least

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<v Speaker 3>profitable half, and they're still talking sixteen point three million

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<v Speaker 3>or sorry, six point three million people right in their

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<v Speaker 3>most profitable churches. And Southern Baptist churches operate independently of

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<v Speaker 3>the convention of the SBC, So the power the SBC's

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<v Speaker 3>power comes from the money they get from their churches

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<v Speaker 3>that'll operate independently, and they can kind of just change

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<v Speaker 3>what they're doing to fit with what people around them

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<v Speaker 3>want and still be a part of the SBC and

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<v Speaker 3>still send that money back. And I think if they

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<v Speaker 3>start bleeding for money and they really need it, they're

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<v Speaker 3>not going to like pick and choose. They're going to

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<v Speaker 3>pick and choose a lot less what their churches are

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<v Speaker 3>teaching if it's going to Oh yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>That's a really good observation.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to give John a chance to answer this

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<v Speaker 1>question since we're running out of time.

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<v Speaker 2>John, where do you think is responsible for the decline

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<v Speaker 2>in church attendance?

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<v Speaker 5>I think everybody's kind of covered most of it. I

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<v Speaker 5>think the decline in church also is that we live

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<v Speaker 5>in a much more computer and electronic driven society, and

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<v Speaker 5>it's always getting people to think in new and different ways.

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<v Speaker 5>So anytime you're not having a structure that is fundamentally stable,

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<v Speaker 5>then things are going to fall away and people are

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<v Speaker 5>going to find new areas do that, like like Eli

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<v Speaker 5>was saying, you know, online or something like that. But

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<v Speaker 5>as that changes, that's a different environment. It's not the

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<v Speaker 5>environment that religion, that particular religion grew up in or

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<v Speaker 5>evolved in. It's now where you can see that it's

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<v Speaker 5>not going to be the same religion at all. It's

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<v Speaker 5>you know, and what it turns into could be even

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<v Speaker 5>scarier than the one you got, but it's not going

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<v Speaker 5>to remain the same. And that's that's where we're seeing now,

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<v Speaker 5>is that, Yeah, a lot of people aren't affiliating with

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<v Speaker 5>a particular church or religion, But then what are they

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<v Speaker 5>doing with all those questions they had right? Are they

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<v Speaker 5>actually looking into them or are they finding another dogma

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<v Speaker 5>to follow? You know? Uh, you know, So it's like

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<v Speaker 5>what's easier doing your own science or reading somebody else's

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<v Speaker 5>take on it? You know, I'm afraid that people are

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<v Speaker 5>going to get sucked in to a lot of very

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<v Speaker 5>charismatic people and go down in even worse road than

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<v Speaker 5>we've been on.

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<v Speaker 4>Yep, I agree, Yeah, I've.

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<v Speaker 2>Some great insights there.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, I want to remind everybody if you're not don't

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<v Speaker 1>have anything to do, you can always go check out

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<v Speaker 1>the twenty four seven AXP Chat or AXP live feed

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<v Speaker 1>on YouTube. It's a lot of fun. There's a live

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<v Speaker 1>chat there. That's why I thought chat. There's a really

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<v Speaker 1>cool group of people that hang out there. I do

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<v Speaker 1>too as well sometimes, so come and hang out with

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<v Speaker 1>us and if you'd like to see more of the

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<v Speaker 1>nonprofits because