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Sign up now at Chumba Casino dot com. 26 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.960 Noll prig Necessary, Dripod Where Everybody lost in terms of It? 27 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:00.880 Eighty lab. 28 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:03.560 Loop Toadian. 29 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:16.079 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 30 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 31 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:26.560 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 32 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:30.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 33 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 34 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.799 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 35 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.879 Good evening. When rookie FBI agent Mark Putnam received his 36 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:57.840 first assignment in nineteen eighty seven, it was the culmination 37 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:02.920 of a lifelong dream. If not the most desirable location. Pikeville, Kentucky, 38 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:06.680 is high in Appellachian coal country, an outpost rife with 39 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.759 lawlessness dating back to the Hatfields and McCoy's. As a 40 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.280 rising star in the bureau, however, Putnam soon was cultivating 41 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:18.800 paid informants and busting drug rings and bank robbers. But 42 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.599 when one informant fell in love with him, passion and 43 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:26.039 duty would collide with tragic results. A coal miner's daughter, 44 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:30.240 Susan Smith, was a young, attractive, struggling single mother. She 45 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.400 also was a drug user, sometimes described as a con artist. 46 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:39.680 Thief and professional liar. Ultimately, Putnam gave in to Smith's 47 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.680 relentless pursuit, but when he ended the affair, she waged 48 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.319 a campaign of vengeance that threatened to destroy him. When 49 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:50.120 at last she confronted him with a shocking announcement, a 50 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:54.080 violent scuffle ensued, and Putnam, in a burst of uncontrolled rage, 51 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.919 finally fatally strangled her. Though he had everything necessary to 52 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:02.000 get away with murder, a spotless reputation, a victim with 53 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.759 multiple enemies, and the protection of the Bureau's impenetrable shield, 54 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.560 his conscience wouldn't allow it. Tormented by a year of 55 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:13.319 guilt and deception, Putnam finally led authorities to Smith's remains. 56 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:16.919 This is the story of what happened before, during, and 57 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:22.159 after his startling confession. Revised and updated. This book also 58 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.360 includes photos and a new epilogue by the author. Book 59 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:30.039 we're featuring this evening is above Suspicion, an undercover FBI agent, 60 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.120 an illicit affair, and a murder of passion, with my 61 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:38.240 special guest, journalist and author Joe Sharky. Welcome back to 62 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:40.240 the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 63 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:44.599 Joe Sharky, Hey, Dan how are you doing. Thank you 64 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.599 very much. I'm doing fine. Thank you. This is an 65 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:52.840 incredible book. Tell us a little bit about how this 66 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.560 was when this was first published in I Believe ninety three. 67 00:03:56.639 --> 00:03:59.479 Tell us how you came to be the author of 68 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:02.639 this book, why you became involved, how you became involved. 69 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:09.960 Well, as you know, true crime stories generally are in 70 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:14.800 the in the headlines, this one was not. Mark Putnam's 71 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:20.000 wife at the time, was desperate to get this story 72 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:24.000 told because she was extremely frustrated with the way she 73 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:28.079 thought the FBI was stonewalling her and trying to get 74 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:33.199 to more of the truth about what had occurred. Neither 75 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:36.920 she nor her husband, Mark Putnam, ever denied that that 76 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.959 this that he did it, or the circumstances of it. 77 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:46.639 Kathy Putnam, though, was just desperate to get the story out. 78 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:52.000 And my agent at the time heard about Kathy and 79 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:54.279 put me in touch with Kathy, And as I got 80 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.439 to know her, I thought, this is really a remarkable story, 81 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:04.600 a remarkable event. It was. It was below the media 82 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:09.879 radar because it had occurred in this very isolated portion 83 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:15.040 of Appalachia, and I thought more and more. Kathy was 84 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:20.519 extremely forthcoming and her husband was available to talk in prison, 85 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.839 and as I got you know, I spent some time 86 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.680 in that part of eastern Kentucky and Pikeville, and then 87 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:30.560 farther east along the Tug River where Susan Smith, the 88 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:35.279 victim had grown up in a coal mine town, and 89 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.920 more and more I realized there's a lot of richness 90 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.800 in this story. So I sort of just dug into it, 91 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.839 and above suspicion was the result. 92 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:49.519 Went. Just as you write in the book, can we 93 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:53.680 take us back to this time February eighty seven, Mark 94 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:56.959 and Kathy Patnam, as you mentioned, and this is his 95 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:03.800 first FBI finement, And so as you write in the book, 96 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:07.959 in this small place Pikeville population forty five hundred East 97 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:15.160 Kentucky and Susan Smith being directly related to the Hatfields, 98 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:18.639 you tell us a little bit about and describe for 99 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.720 us and set the stage for the reader about this 100 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:27.240 area that has a great influence on this story. Tell 101 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:30.040 us a little bit about this Pikeville, East Kentucky. 102 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.480 Well, Pikeville is the metropolis as what was a forty 103 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.959 five hundred population of the coal mine region in this 104 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:43.319 part of eastern Kentucky, which also abuts just across the 105 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:48.040 river West Virginia. You know the coal mine area of 106 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:53.079 West Virginia. It's traditionally been an isolated area. It's still 107 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:57.120 fairly isolated. The interstate at the time hadn't come anywhere 108 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:05.040 near Pikeville. I think it was a place where outsiders 109 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:09.160 traditionally had come in to extract things, starting with the 110 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:11.480 lumber industry and then and then of course the coal 111 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.839 mine barrens. And there was a place of up and 112 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:19.560 down economy with with the coal mines. By the time 113 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:21.759 I got there, and by the time this book was 114 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:26.759 set a few years before that, everything had fallen on 115 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:33.199 hard times. The coal mine economy was was in its 116 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.600 just flopping around and not doing very well. It was 117 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:40.480 It's a place where, I mean, I got very fond 118 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.079 of eastern Kentucky, and particularly not just a Pikeville, but 119 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:48.000 of the town where Susan Smith grew up, Cold Freeburn, 120 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:51.079 which is right on the river, very much a coal 121 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.240 mine town. Used to be a company town. Uh this 122 00:07:54.839 --> 00:08:01.240 let's you know, Susan grew up in this environment of isolation, suspicion, 123 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:06.000 but extreme family orientation, if you know what I mean. 124 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:09.279 There were there were always people around her who basically 125 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:13.839 put up with her. She was a remarkably complex girl 126 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:17.439 who had who had dreams of of getting out of 127 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:20.680 that that that life, and I never sort of had 128 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:25.920 the skills to uh to achieve those dreams. She was sassy, 129 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:30.040 she was pretty. Uh. The picture of her that I 130 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:32.919 have in the book is the only picture if I 131 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:37.240 could get, and it doesn't really, you know, do justice 132 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:39.440 to her. She was pretty, she was that, she was smart, 133 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.679 although uneducated, uh, and she was desperate to uh to 134 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:48.600 be something and had absolutely no no skills in order 135 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:55.720 to get there. The the area is one of the 136 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:59.960 themes in this book is the not just the isolation, 137 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:05.360 but the important, the critical importance of what I think 138 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:09.799 of as hillbilly hearsay. It's an area where at the 139 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:14.120 time I don't know how it is exactly now. Word 140 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.200 of mouth was how information sort of got passed from 141 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:20.639 one place to another, and word of mouth had a 142 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.639 tremendous influence on the way this story played out, or 143 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.679 particularly on the fact when Susan Smith disappeared from her 144 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:34.960 home and her family and her kids in Freeburn, Kentucky. 145 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.279 The word of mouth helped to cement the idea that 146 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.639 she had as she had gone, as she had done 147 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:44.080 in the in the past, that she might have been 148 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:46.840 off on some caper, that she she was involved in 149 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:51.320 petty drug deals with some you know, shady characters, as 150 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:54.759 was her husband, and she had been known to disappear before. 151 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:57.320 She always took care to make sure that her children 152 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:00.679 she had two kids, were looked after. And she wasn't 153 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:03.960 that she was a horrific mother, that she had no 154 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.480 major mothering skills, but she did look after her kids. 155 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:13.159 So she disappears, and the hearsay is that, well she was, 156 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:17.000 she's off to you know, Chicago or some place in 157 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:20.879 Ohio on a drug deal, and that accounted for the 158 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:25.440 fact that it took months, maybe six months, for it 159 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:28.919 to become clear to particularly her sister who lived also 160 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:34.080 in Freeburn on the on the River, that something was 161 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:37.360 desperately wrong. Susan had not been in touch at all, 162 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:43.679 and then the the mystery began as to who was 163 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.759 who were the suspects, Who were the major suspects in 164 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:51.000 Susan's disappearance, And of course, as is always the case, 165 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.320 the husband in which this guy was a near do 166 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:58.480 well but also a charming guy named named Kenneth Smith. 167 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:03.000 He was the prime suspect. The local you know, the 168 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:06.720 local cops had no crime to investigate. The county cops, 169 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:09.879 so they you know, they did talk to him. They 170 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:13.039 figured there were other suspects. There was a notorious bank 171 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:17.559 robber again, a charming guy named Cat Eyes, who was 172 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:20.320 you know, could have been a suspect. The Cat Eyes 173 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:25.200 was in prison at the time. But the investigation, such 174 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.480 as it was, was a missing person investigation and it 175 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.200 really went nowhere for months and months and months and months. Well, 176 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:37.519 Susan Smith's sister, Shelby, kept pressing the local cops to uh, 177 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:41.159 you know, to get on with it. And Shelby knew 178 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.600 one thing, and only one thing. She knew that that 179 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:49.080 she had never met Mark Puttnam, the FBI agent. But 180 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:53.200 she knew that Susan was always on about Mark Puttnam. 181 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:58.000 Susan was Mark Putnam's informant. She was on the payroll 182 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:04.440 of the FBI. She was helping Mark crackcases. And Susan 183 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:06.960 told stories and it was hard to sort out what 184 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:09.159 was really was, you know, what was a pipe dream 185 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:15.840 for Susan. And Susan told stories about her affair with 186 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:20.639 Mark Putnam. Now these stories were being told in far away, 187 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:24.840 you know, forty miles away from pike pike Field, and 188 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:28.360 people sorry shrugged and said, well, you know that's that's Susan. 189 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.360 Maybe she is, you know, romantically linked with this guy, 190 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.120 but there's no you know, there was no evidence of 191 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:40.600 that at the time. So eventually Mark Putnam became focused, 192 00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:44.039 it became more out of focus as a potential suspect 193 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:46.480 and what at the time was just a disappearance a 194 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:50.919 missing person. It took Shelby a long long time to 195 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:54.600 knock heads together and get the cops, to get the 196 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:57.399 FBI to sort of get on this case because the 197 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:01.639 FBI was horrified even the idea of one of its 198 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:05.240 star young agents would be involved in something they the 199 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:08.639 disappearance of a girl, and that all finally, about almost 200 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:13.840 a year later, started to come into uh started to 201 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:17.679 become a more serious investigation. In the meantime, Mark Putnam 202 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:21.919 and his wife, who was a very assertive woman who 203 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:26.240 got involved in the FBI's business very much in an 204 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:32.639 office in Pikeville that was basically unsupervised from the higher FBI. 205 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.159 They had gotten out of Pikeville on you on good terms, 206 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:40.000 and Mark was as part of his reward for being 207 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:45.240 such a crime fighter in Pikeville, was transferred with his 208 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.879 wife and two kids at this time to the Miami Bureau, 209 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:52.039 which was quite a prize. And in the Miami Bureau, 210 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:56.200 as all this stuff was going on back in eastern Kentucky, 211 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:01.559 Mark's Mark was a real boy scout and his conscience 212 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:07.039 really preyed on him. Throughout the entire year. He kept thinking, well, 213 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:08.919 they're going to find out, They're going to find out, 214 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:12.000 but he didn't doing it. He didn't say anything until 215 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:15.360 about a year later. He started making moves like we've 216 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:19.039 got to get this thing clear, and it all came 217 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:22.960 It all just came to ahead a year later when Mark, 218 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:27.559 through a series of machinations with lawyers and with the 219 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.759 prosecutor in Pikeville, decided that he was going to fess up, 220 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:36.960 tell them that he had killed Susan Smith in a 221 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.759 fit of passion, and tell them where the body was. 222 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:42.320 And suddenly we had not just a missing we had 223 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:46.159 not a missing person's case. We had we had a homicide. 224 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:51.000 And the process of getting marked through that confession period 225 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.360 struck me as very very interesting because the district attorney 226 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:59.840 in Pike County, in Pikeville was kind of in a. 227 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:03.679 He was a really interesting guy. John Paul Runyon was 228 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:06.519 his name. Because he didn't have a body. He had 229 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:09.559 somebody confessing to a crime that he had no evidence 230 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.639 of except the fact that the person had been missing, 231 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.200 and he had to very carefully, step by step concoct 232 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:23.120 along with the attorney for Mark Putnam, on the other hand, 233 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:32.799 a crime basically that Mark Puttnam could comfortably, comfortably I 234 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:35.480 don't mean comfortably, but that Mark Putnam would in fact 235 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.200 plead to eventually. The crime was second degree murder, and 236 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.639 the deal was Mark had to tell them from Miami 237 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:45.639 where the body was. Once that was agreed to and 238 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:50.519 negotiated and put in place, the cops and the FBI 239 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:53.559 were led to this scene where Mark had dumped the 240 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:57.080 body on a sort of a mountain ravine not far 241 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:01.879 from Pikeville itself, and they found the and Mark confessed. 242 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:06.279 And in Kentucky, first degree murder is extremely hard to 243 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:10.279 prove and the best the prosecutor could get. And I 244 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:13.879 talked to him at great length when I was researching 245 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:18.000 this book. Was second degree murdered, a prison sentence of 246 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:21.879 twelve years, and Mark fled guilty, went to prison, to 247 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.960 a federal prison because FBI agents I thought to be 248 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:27.879 at some risk if they were in a state prison. 249 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:33.879 And that in turn ignited another controversy in Pikeville, which 250 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:39.879 was yankee, fair haired Yankee boy gets an easy easy, 251 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.720 an easy sentence, and so that controversy is still going 252 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:48.759 on in Pikeville. To me, the overall thrust of this book, 253 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.200 that as I spent more and more time there and 254 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.200 got to know Mark Putnam and his wife and the 255 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.960 people who knew the citizen Smith, is that it was 256 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:02.480 almost a classic track in that you had a hero 257 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:06.559 who was brought low by his own hubris. Mark Putnam 258 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:11.279 was was driven, he was up. You know, he literally 259 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:14.119 was a boy scout. He was a high school and 260 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.920 college soccer star. He believed firmly in the FBI. That 261 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.519 was his dream. His wife was behind him, pushing all 262 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:24.079 the way, and this this was really his dream, was 263 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:26.720 to become an FBI agent. He was a really really 264 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.359 good one. For most of his time in Pikeville. He 265 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:34.000 was cracking cases. Susan Smith became an informant and she 266 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:39.119 really helped him cracked some bankruptbery cases and things like that. 267 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:41.519 He was looking really really good until of course it 268 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.880 all it all just collapsed on everybody, not just Mark, 269 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:48.160 but on Mark's family and of course on Susan's family 270 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:53.279 and her two children. So that was the niche of 271 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:55.440 my interest in it. 272 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.960 Mm hmm. Let's go back, as you do in the book, though, 273 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:04.480 to create this entire scenario where this boy scout FBI 274 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:10.039 agent really looked like he was at all accounts he 275 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:13.119 had a future, a really bright future. He was madly 276 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:16.119 in love with his wife, they had children, and he 277 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:21.079 was at this outpost. What you have in the book, though, 278 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:25.759 is the complex relationship between his wife and this is 279 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:28.839 a person with a little bit of a checkered past 280 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.920 as well and redemption in her life, and then she 281 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:37.359 met her dream Mark and Susan Smith, and the relationship 282 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:43.000 with his wife Kathy, because she became an ally of 283 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:47.160 Susan relating to her. So tell our audience about this 284 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:52.559 relationship that developed that contributed to Susan falling in love. 285 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.799 Tell us, as you do in the book, about this 286 00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.759 evolving relationship that contributed to this, as you say, tragic death. 287 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.920 That's a very good point, and that to me is 288 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:09.279 one of the most one of the most compelling aspects 289 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:12.640 of this story is the two women is Kathy Putnam 290 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:15.440 on the one hand, Mark's wife, Kathy Putnam, and on 291 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:20.559 the other hand Susan Smith, the informant working for Mark Putnam. 292 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.599 This I mean that the setting is important in that 293 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.720 this office was an outposts just exactly as you say. 294 00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:32.480 It was not supervised. That there was one other agent 295 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.519 and he was a goof off. So Mark Putnam was 296 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:40.839 basically operating without in essence adult supervision, if you know 297 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:44.279 what I mean, Kathy, it was a very I mean 298 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:48.799 Kathy was a really aggressive, assertive woman who helped Mark 299 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:51.400 in every way to becoming at the Eye agent in 300 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:58.799 Connecticut where they both grew up. She because she involved 301 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:02.359 herself in the the i's business because basically there was 302 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:05.319 no there's no secretary in the office. She got to 303 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:10.039 the point where she was handling a lot of the 304 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:13.319 business at the FBI office. I don't mean the investigations, 305 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:16.240 but taking the phone calls. And she got to know 306 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.279 because Susan Smith had become so deeply involved as an 307 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:24.960 informant with Mark, she got to know Susan and the 308 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.200 one thing that I mean, I got to know Kathy 309 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.880 very very well and also Mark. But Kathy was a 310 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.079 helper She was one of these people who involved yourself, 311 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:39.519 involved yourself in sort of not hopeless cases, but desperate cases. 312 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:45.160 And Kathy fell in as a helper to Susan, and 313 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:48.799 Kathy made it her business to try to put Susan 314 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.799 on a better path. She kept telling her, you can, 315 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:55.200 you can straighten things out, you can get there's a 316 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.839 way to get out out of this situation. And Susan, 317 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:03.880 for her this would mostly telephone conversations. Susan, for her part, 318 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:08.240 began to model herself after Kathy. Kathy had a bit 319 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:10.440 of a checkered background, as you say, but Kathy had 320 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.200 had as a young adult, had really cleared all those 321 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.640 things up. Kathy was pretty, she was poised, and to 322 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:20.920 Susan Dies Kathy was the frosty queen, I mean, Kathy 323 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.519 was nothing of the sort. But Susan began to model 324 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:29.319 herself after Kathy in terms of the way she spoke. 325 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:34.000 Susan was cognizant of the fact that she and I 326 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:37.119 don't use this term hillbilly in any pejorative sense, but 327 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:40.640 that she was considered a hillbilly. Susan tried to improve 328 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.960 her grammar. Susan was always a reader, which always which 329 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.200 fascinated me, and more to a great extent, Susan began 330 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.200 to act like Kathy, and I don't know how that 331 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:56.960 affected Mark, because Mark was thrown into intimate relation with 332 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:02.000 professional relations with Susan. Kathy had no idea. Susan told 333 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:04.359 her that she was in love with Mark, but Kathy 334 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:07.640 had no idea that Mark would ever get involved into 335 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:11.680 a romantic relationship with Susan. But it was interesting how 336 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:15.240 those two I think of these two women as Kathy 337 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:21.960 and Susan as orbiting around Mark, and I think to 338 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.119 the extent that I that I could, you know, it 339 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:29.079 being a non fiction book where you have to be accurate, 340 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.279 I think I got that idea that these two women 341 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:39.839 were involved in this tragic orbit around around Mark. And actually, 342 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:43.319 actually when the movie was made many many years, not 343 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:47.799 long ago, the star, the woman who the actress who 344 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.640 played Susan the Dead, the dead Girl, the dead coal 345 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:55.160 miner's daughter was Amelia Clark from a Game of Thrones, 346 00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:00.759 and that on location it became a Wilia made it 347 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.640 clear that she really was driven to that aspect of 348 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:08.359 the book in her portrayal of Susan Smith, and I 349 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.440 said to her, Amelia, after I watched her work on location. 350 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.599 I was a consultant on the shoot. I said, you've 351 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:19.680 really brought this young woman to life, which is something 352 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:22.319 I tried to do in the book. But I was 353 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.359 astonished at how well Amelia understood all that and got 354 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:31.519 the very interesting facets of Susan Smith, and she worked. 355 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.359 Amelia worked day and night for three months on this 356 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:39.240 movie shoot. But I think obviously I was not able 357 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.839 to interview Susan Smith. I talked to both the people 358 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.000 who knew her, and I got these various parts of 359 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:50.000 her personality. But somehow Amelia seemed to just synthesize all 360 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:52.519 that and she just nailed it. So I'm interested in 361 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.720 seeing the finished movie when it comes out, and finally 362 00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:59.839 seeing Susan Smith almost in the flesh, if you know 363 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:03.119 what I mean. But those two women fascinated me. I 364 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.359 was Kathy was was determined to get the story told. 365 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:09.200 Kathy was furious at what she thought of as the 366 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:13.319 FBI having abandoned her husband in the sense that he 367 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.799 wasn't supervised, that they kept pushing him to get more 368 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:19.440 and more involved in these these crimes, and that her 369 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:24.079 husband was not a victim. She never never saw that, 370 00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:27.240 but that her husband was pushed into areas that that 371 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:29.920 should have been supervised a little bit better. There was 372 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:32.599 an agent, another agent in the bureau who was in 373 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.839 love with Susan Smith. He was a no good guy. 374 00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:38.480 He was an IAGO and he didn't he didn't know it, 375 00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:45.440 and he kept needling trying to get Susan Smith interested 376 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.599 in him rather than interested in Mark. And Kathy just 377 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:52.759 was determined to get to get this story out. And 378 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.279 you know, I talked to the FBI, and particularly to 379 00:24:55.319 --> 00:25:00.640 the FBI agent in charge of this after the after 380 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:04.880 the crime became known, and they were they were very 381 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.319 very astonished at Kathy. Uh. They they they did. I 382 00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:12.359 think they did the right thing after Mark. You know, 383 00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:17.440 at the point that Mark confessed and they understood Kathy's frustration. 384 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:21.480 She uh, she never let go and there was basically 385 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:24.720 nothing they can could do about it at that point. 386 00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:28.640 But Kathy was right that and the FBI finally, the 387 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:34.079 FBI UH supervisors finally admitted to me and and and 388 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.559 also to the record that this was a real mistake. 389 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:39.599 This was a black eye for the FBI, not just 390 00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:42.319 the fact that one of their star agents killed a 391 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:46.160 female informant, but that he had been allowed and encouraged 392 00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:49.039 in fact, to keep that relationship going. And that was 393 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:53.119 just that was just trouble. And I think the the 394 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:57.200 FBI finally, you know, came to that conclusion. We made 395 00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:00.680 a terrible mistake here in letting in encouraging this guy 396 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.279 to keep pushing and pushing and pushing, and in not 397 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:08.559 giving a better advice about, Hey, this informant is UH 398 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.319 is going to be trouble for you. You better, you 399 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:14.079 better back off of it. So that that was the 400 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:21.440 precipitating event was when Uh, Susan desperate. At this point, 401 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:25.039