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Speaker 1: Hey, they're Monster Talkers.

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Speaker 2: Before I get into anything, I just wanted to say

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thank you for all of the outporting and supportive emails

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and Patreon signups that we've been having.

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Speaker 1: I haven't found a new job yet, and I don't

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want to.

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Speaker 2: Turn these intros into the Blake Job Update podcast, but

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I do want to say we saw a twenty one

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percent growth in our support on Patreon and that is

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so helpful, and on behalf of Karen and myself, we

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really really appreciate the new backers immensely. Please, if you

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want to support the show's Patreon dot org forward slash

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monster talk and we would love to have you can

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even join at the free level and it gets you

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access to the discussions on these episodes and lots of

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bonus material.

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Speaker 1: And then I mentioned that while Karen and Matt were

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in England, Matt got laid off too. Hey, wow, twenty

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twenty five is so hard on us.

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Speaker 2: I kind of see it being used as an insult

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or a threat in the future. Hey, Jeric, I hope

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you get twenty twenty five. Oh man, I'm sorry, mister.

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I don't know what got into me no, but he

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deserves that.

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Speaker 3: Like that.

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Speaker 2: You know what, I'm still able to find tremendous satisfaction

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in doing.

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Speaker 1: Historical research on monsters, and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Enjoying Lucy, the library kitten, who's the newest addition to

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the Munschtalk family.

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Speaker 1: We adopted her just a few.

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Speaker 2: Days before I got laid off, but you know what,

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She's been an absolute delight and so feeling that cat

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shaped hole in my heart that the other two cats

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we have have failed to feel for more than a decade.

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And I'm not going to brag, but the people who've

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been defending those two jerks for a decade have all

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had to admit that Lucy is a lot more interactive

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and affectionate or you know, she's like an actual pet

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instead of whatever those bozos are. Anyway, next week I

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will share my research on the van Meter monster with you.

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I'm really getting into the research zone on that one,

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and I love sharing my process, so I hope you'll

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tune in for that. I was gonna do that for

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this week, but I could not stop researching long enough

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to write my script, which is a fun place to

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be for research, but not.

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Speaker 1: Conducive to getting an episode about the door.

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Speaker 2: So it's another flashback this week, but this one has

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a bit of a value add I've combined our two

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part coverage on the Shaver Mysteries, which is all about

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the Hollow Earth and the rise of flying saucer culture

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in the mid twentieth century, and it's also about the

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birth of science fiction. It's about Nazis, and it's about

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all sorts of weirdness that never disappeared from our culture

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so much as metastasized. This is a wild ride and

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it's all here in one giant episode for you. I've

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even combined all the show notes into one big brain drop.

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Speaker 1: So have fun.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy me and Jerry Drake and Jebcard as we dive

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into one of the most influential yet largely unknown narratives

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from the annals of weird Shitology Monstertal. Monster Talk is

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supported by listeners like you. Find out how you can

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contribute via Patreon or with reviews at monster talk dot org,

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forge slash support. Your contributions, large or small, make a

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huge difference.

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Speaker 1: Thanks.

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Speaker 2: In the twenty eleven book Idiot America, author Charles Pearce

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opens his story of the dumbification of American culture with

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the classic exemplar of wingnut ideas ignacious Donnelly, author of

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the eighteen eighty two book Atlantis The Antediluvian World. While

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it was Plato who gave us the legend of Atlantis,

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it was Donnelly who turned out the template for all

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modern variants of the Lost Continent. It was a strange idea,

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and apparently as enticing as it was wrong. Piers uses

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a very specific word to describe Donnelly and his ideas.

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Speaker 1: He refers to both as crackpot.

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Speaker 2: Crackpot is said to come from the word cracked, which

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means faulty, and pot being used as a slang for

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a person's head.

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Speaker 1: But whether that's right or wrongheaded.

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Speaker 2: The more obvious metaphorical references to that of a ceramic

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pot with a crack in it. On first glance, it

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looks like a sound vessel, but it simply won't hold water.

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A crackpot idea won't hold water either, But that doesn't matter,

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because it turns out that even the most cracked crackpot

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idea can hold infinite quantities of belief. This is part

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one of a two part series on the Shaver mysteries.

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We're going to be talking about the Hollow Earth, ancient astronauts, Nazis, UFOs,

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comic books, science fiction, and much much more. Get ready

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for a strange trip.

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Speaker 3: It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. A giant,

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hairy creature.

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Speaker 4: Part ape, part mats in Luckness, a twenty four mile

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long bottomless lake in the highlands of Scotland. Get the

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creature known as the Luckness Monster.

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Speaker 3: Monster tal.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm

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Blake Smith.

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Speaker 2: You know I read our reviews on iTunes and I'm

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really happy that so many of you have enjoyed the

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show enough to take a moment to give us a

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very positive review. But I also take the criticisms to

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heart as well. One that we get occasionally and then

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I'm going to try to address in this two part

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episode is that when we deep dive into topics that

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I and my guests know well, we sometimes forget to

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contextualize all the name dropping during the interview. I try

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to augment the show notes with links that will fill

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in those gaps. But if you find that there's something

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we mentioned in this show that you don't recognize or

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we don't have a reference to, please shoot me an

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email and I'll add it to the show notes. You

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can always contact me at Blake at MonsterTalk dot org.

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So in point, the topic of these next two episodes

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is the Shaver Mystery. What is the Shaver Mystery? Well,

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it's a complicated story, which is why this is such

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a long coverage. But the nutshell version is that in

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the nineteen forties, a man named Richard Shaver wrote about

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mysterious experiences he had in which he was receiving information

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from telepathic evil robots inside the earth. That's right, Shaver

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believed that evil monsters lurked inside a hollow Earth and

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could influence the lives of us mere mortal surface dwellers.

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Now that may sound like science fiction, but I want

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to save the really fascinating twist and turns for our guests,

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which we'll come up during these discussions. As we've got

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two returning fan favorites, archaeologist and author of the book

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Spooky Archaeology, doctor Jeb Card and researcher doctor Jerry Drake,

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who previously joined us to discuss grimoires and the amazing

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Jack Parsons. You can find fascinating episodes featuring their wit

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and wisdom in our archives MonsterTalk dot org. But before

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we dive into a story that deals so heavily with

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the topic of a hollow earth, I think it would

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be useful to do a really brief overview of the

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history of the theories around that topic. Now, we could

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start in a lot of places, For example, the writing

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of Athanasius Kircher, who's sixteen sixty five compendium Munda Subterraneus

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or The Subterranean World, had been inspired by his own

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trips inside Mount Vesuvius to see the roiling and boiling

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gas emitted from the hellscape of a volcano. He wrote

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about giants and dragons and other legendary dwellers of caves,

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and many things that make me desperately want to read

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this huge and prodigious work. Even if the factual accuracy

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of his speculations are wildly wrong, the illustrations are amazing.

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To do a comprehensive history of the hollow Earth for

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this show would be impossible. There's far too many legends

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involving giant caverns, lost civilizations, holes in the polar regions, suns,

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and a scis eye of an inverted globe.

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Speaker 1: It just goes on and on and that's just the nonfiction.

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Speaker 2: But let's skip quite a bit forward from ancient stories

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of holes that lead down into hades and other sorts

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of myths and legends, and instead we'll arbitrarily start our

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modern conceptions of the hollow Earth with someone we usually

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think of as a scientist, Sir Edmund Halley of Comet fame.

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Now it might seem odd for a person so firmly

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associated with the birth of science to postulate a hollow earth,

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but how he was trying to account for a recently

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discovered anomaly. The Earth appeared to have four magnetic poles

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and they wandered around wildly, so how could this be.

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Speaker 3: To explain it, he.

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Speaker 2: Postulated that the multiple poles were from multiple spheres which

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were inside the Earth that moved in ways that accounted

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for the wandering, and also accounted for the Earth having four,

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when no magnets on the surface ever have but two.

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We now know that he he had left to a

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complicated conclusion to explain a phenomena was actually based on

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incomplete data. The poles do move, but we only have

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two of them. As wild as his idea was, there

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are actually layers within the Earth, just not the strange

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sort of bull's eye of concentric circles you would see

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if his model of the world were correct. Now, I'm

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not a geologist, but thanks to some very clever science experiments,

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we now know the Earth's solid crust moves around on

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a sea of molten rock, and deep within that rock

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is a denser metallic core. The spinning of all this

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material generates to the magnetic field, which in turn protects

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us from harmful cosmic radiation and gives us the marvelous

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polar lights. Thanks to seismic readings during earthwake activity and

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an understanding of density, distance, speed, and many other basic physics,

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researchers have used seismic data, almost like a sonogram, to

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infer much about the Earth. Among those discoveries, none of

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them confirmed a hollow Earth. It was just a notable

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starting point with his paper in sixteen ninety two. And

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these things don't just die once they've been published. They

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live on, they mutate. Even when the scientific world rejected

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or ignored much of Holly's writing about this, others republished it,

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including the Reverend Cotton Mather, who included it in the

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volume he composed on Christian Philosophy and others would come

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up with their own ideas as speculations. In seventeen twenty one,

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a French adventure novel titled an Account of a Voyage

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from the North Pole to the South Pole via the

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Center of the Earth was published. I think the title

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is a fair summary for our purposes. A whirlpool carries

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a ship through the Earth from the North Pole to

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the South Pole, and many adventures are had. In seventeen

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forty one, The Journey of Neil's Clym to the World

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Underground was published by Ludwig Holberg, whose work appears to

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have been heavily influenced by Halley's conceptions of spheres separated

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by empty spaces. In eighteen eighteen, five hundred copies of

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an Amazing Letter was sent out to papers, politicians, schools,

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and basically anybody the author thought might be influenced. And

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that author was John Cleves Sims, and he was not

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shy and stating, I declare the Earth is hollow and

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habitable within, containing a number of solid concentric circles, one

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within the other, and that it is open at the poles.

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He went on to say in side it would be

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tropical and stocked with plants and animals and perhaps even

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a people. And all he asked was for one hundred

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brave companions, well equipped to venture from Siberia to the

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North Pole to have a look. We'll hear more about

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Sims in our interview, but spoiler alert, he did not

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make it to the Hollow Earth.

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Speaker 1: Are the polls?

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Speaker 2: Weirdly, nobody wanted to fund his speculative investigation, but he

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spent the rest of his life lecturing and lobbying for

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such a trip, and at least one of his sons

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took up the.

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Speaker 1: Cause after his father.

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Speaker 2: Sims claimed to have come up with his Hollow Earth

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concepts by himself, but it did have remarkable parallels to

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Halley's version. In eighteen twenty a novel came out called

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Simsonia Voyage of Discovery, about a trip to the southern

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opening of the Hollow Earth. The author, a man called

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Adam Seaborne, is speculated to have been Sims, using a pseudonym.

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Simms also petitioned Congress to organize an expedition.

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Speaker 1: But that went nowhere.

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Speaker 2: Still, it would not be the only time Congress was

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lobbied to fund such a trip. In eighteen twenty six,

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James McBride published a book called Sims Theory of Concentric Spheres,

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which argued in support of Sims theories. A man named

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Jeremiah Reynolds joined Sims in a touring lecture series, but

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the two men eventually went their separate ways, splitting into

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two Hollow Earth factions. Reynolds was a persuasive lecturer, and

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his work may have contributed to the support of the

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Great United States Exploring expedition of eighteen thirty eight to

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map Antarctica's coast. In eighteen thirty three, Edgar Allan poe

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O published manuscript Found in a Bottle, which featured elements

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quite similar to Sims and Reynolds theories, as well as

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travel to Antarctica. In eighteen sixty four we get Jules

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Verne's beloved Journey to the Center of the Earth. A

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popular book, it describes a scientific expedition into a hollow

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Earth filled.

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Speaker 1: With strange life and adventure.

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Speaker 2: Eighteen sixty four is also the same year that a

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zoologist named Philip Sclater came up with a theory about

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a lost continent between India and Madagascar to explain why

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the animal life in both places are so similar. He

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concluded that there must have been a continent between them,

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which he called Limoria, after the famous Lemurs of Madagascar.

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We'll get back to Lemoria shortly. In eighteen sixty nine,

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a patent medicine and electrical and magnetism doctor I'm using

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scare quotes around doctor named cyrus Ted says that he

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had an experience where he discovered the alchemist's Philosopher's Stone,

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and then he was visit by the goddess creator of

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the universe, who told him he should save the human race.

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He rebranded himself as Korreesh and founded a new religion

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called Korshianity, one of the beliefs of which is the

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earth is hollow and that we live inside the sphere

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of it. He would not be the last religious latter

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to change his name to Koresh and start a cult,

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nor the most famous. In eighteen eighty eight, Madame Helena

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Bolovotsky published The Secret Doctrine, one of the foundational texts

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of Theosophy, a mystical thought movement whose influence we discussed frequently.

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She included Lemuria as a lost home of ancient masters

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with all sorts of strange and mystical powers. In nineteen

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o five, a book was posthumously published by an American

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named Frederick Oliver. The book was titled A Dweller on

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Two Planets. It told the story of an Atlantean who

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was reborn as a Civil War veteran and is later

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led into a secret world by a mystic master, a

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subterranean world ridden under California's Mount Shasta and full of

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ancient fantastic technology from Atlantis. In the introduction, Oliver explains

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that he didn't write the book himself, rather, the content

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was channeled through him that will become important later in

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our timeline. In nineteen oh six, William Reid argued in

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his book Phantom of the Poles that at both polls

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there's actually a huge hole thousands of miles wide, instead

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of land or ice. He also thought that there are

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no meteor rocks, but they're just rocks from inside the

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earth thrown out by volcanoes from these holes. In nineteen

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oh nine, two teams raced for the North Pole. One

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was led by Frederick Cook, the other by Robert Perry.

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It's hard to say if either team really made it

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precisely to the pole, or if they did, which one

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got there first, but neither observed one thousand mile wide hole,

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which would have been hard to miss. In nineteen thirteen,

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Marshall Gardner questioned whether Cook or Perry really got close

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to the polls in his book A Journey to the

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Earth's Interior, or have the polls really been discovered. Gardner

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did encourage aerial exploration of the polls to investigate these

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large holes that he postulated. In nineteen fourteen, Edgar Rice

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Burroughs published At the Earth's Core, which became a series

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known as the Pellucidar books. His Hollow Earth has dinosaurs

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and adventure and ape men and Strange Peoples. In nineteen

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thirty one, Limoria, the Lost Continent of the Pacific was

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published by Harvey Spencer Lewis using the anagrammic pseudonym Wishar

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Spinley Survey. He melded elements from Theosophy and the book

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A Dweller onto Planets and created an even more elaborate

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tale of an advanced Limorian technology under Mount Shasta. These

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ideas perhaps inevitably led to splinters of religious belief forming

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around them. One of the most famous was and still is,

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the the I Am movement, whose name recalls Ascended Masters,

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as well as the Old Testament Bible tale of Moses

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and the Burning Bush. The Iam movement was started by

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Guy and Edna Ballard and dealt with many of the

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same ideas as presented in A Dweller Onto Planets and

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adds in the character of Saint Germain as the ascended

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Master who guides this tour into the Limorian subterranean wonderland

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under Mount Shasta. The nineteen thirty four book Unveiled Mysteries

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describes this tale. The similarities between the two books led

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to a fascinating court case where the family of the

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late Oliver sued the Ballards for plagiarism, but ultimately they

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lost because Oliver had claimed he didn't write the book himself.

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Remember he claimed to have channeled it and to not

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be the author.

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Speaker 1: Whoops.

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Speaker 2: The Ballard's I Am movement still exists, though the movement

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had a good bit of drama themselves in the nineteen

319
00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,960
forties when the government revoked their tax free religious statf

320
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,359
German World War I Air Force veteran Peter Bender picked

321
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,519
up the Kureshian ideas of the Hollow Earth, and in

322
00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:11,119
the nineteen forties he worked with the Nazis to try

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00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,640
to use this secret knowledge of their advantage.

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Speaker 1: Remember that Koresh thought we were.

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Speaker 2: Inside the spherical Earth, and all the evidence to the

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00:18:19,839 --> 00:18:23,880
contrary is because of optical illusions. I wasn't able to

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find primary sources about the experiment that Bender and his

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00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:30,119
team conducted, but a couple of versions seemed to agree

329
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that he traveled to the Black Sea with a team

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to build a device that would either look into the

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sky to detect enemy ships or to project something into

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the sky to confuse enemy radar. But whatever the actual

333
00:18:41,519 --> 00:18:45,640
plan was, it didn't work, and Hitler was apparently furious

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00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,400
with the waste of resources, so Bender and much of

335
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,440
his team ended up in a concentration camp, where Bender

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apparently died in nineteen forty five.

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Speaker 1: We get to the.

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Speaker 2: Subject of our episodes, our two part discussion the collaborative

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writing of Richard Shaver, a mentally troubled artist in Welder,

340
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and Raymond A. Palmer, a science fiction magazine editor and

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science fiction writer. Together there are stories of a hollow

342
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,079
Earth filled with evil robots and lost civilizations. Drove a

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massive social discussion. Now, if that sounds like a bunch

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of wacky history with no relevance to modern times, you'd

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00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:22,839
be wrong.

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Speaker 1: Like I said at the.

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Speaker 2: Top, a crackpot idea may not hold water, but it

348
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can hold infinite amounts of belief, and the influence of

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Shaver's and Palmer's collaboration is still being felt today and

350
00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:36,920
will likely continue to be felt for decades.

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Speaker 1: A lot of links, including two issues.

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Speaker 2: Of Junior Skeptic around the topic of hollow Earth by

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00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,359
Daniel Loxton that do a great job of a more

354
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,480
detailed primer on this topic. We'll be linked in the

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00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:50,400
show notes, plus many of the articles and books that

356
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we just discussed. So buckle up, We're going on a

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deep dive into the hollow Earth with our speed linking guides,

358
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doctors Jerry Drake and Jeb Carr. This is more obstrutal,

359
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,240
so I'm going to try to put a little bit

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of order to this, and we'll just get started by

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saying welcome to Jeb Card and Jerry Drake. Thank you

362
00:20:18,279 --> 00:20:20,079
very much for coming back to talk to us again

363
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on Monster Talk. Absolutely the reason I've asked you to

364
00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:27,279
come here tonight is to talk about a topic which

365
00:20:27,319 --> 00:20:30,799
is a little bit obscure. I think most people will

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not have heard of these people and this whole idea

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of the Shaver Mysteries. But I think as we start

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00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,279
to dig in on it, you'll see that it is

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a topic which is absolutely critical, foundational, even for a

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00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:51,279
lot of what we think of is weirdology today.

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Speaker 3: I'll just study you straight out. As I found out

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on Twitter this weekend, apparently more people know the DC

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Comics character Ray Palmer than I was aware of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so just I guess we should

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probably introduce these characters and talk about who we're talking about.

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So I wanted to talk about Richard Shaver, Richard Sharp Shaver,

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who is at least at least the co author, if

378
00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:21,400
not the author, of something that was known as the

379
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,480
Shaver Mysteries, and we'll talk about what that is. But

380
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it kind of comes out of the hollow Earth, and

381
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:33,039
it kind of comes out of possibly mental illness. But

382
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,920
it was brought to the public by a guy named

383
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:42,559
Ray Palmer who was running a magazine called Amazing Stories

384
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and Amazing Stories. You may know from the Steven Spielberg

385
00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:52,640
inspired TV series. I guess he produced it, but it

386
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,440
was a magazine back in I guess the late thirties

387
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,720
up into well, it's actually still around now, but it's changed.

388
00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but for the most part, really the

389
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,319
thirties to the fifties. In any real recognizable, exactly important way.

390
00:22:06,319 --> 00:22:09,519
Speaker 2: It sort of parallels a lot of the sort of

391
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,400
I guess weird tales as well, sort of the same

392
00:22:13,519 --> 00:22:15,920
kind of idea where it's still around, but is it

393
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,119
really you know so well.

394
00:22:17,839 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 3: I we'll get into this, but I think they're actually

395
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,799
there's an important distinction between you know, there's there's several

396
00:22:23,799 --> 00:22:26,799
big ones, but weird Weird Tales will get into why

397
00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:32,599
that's important, and then you have astounding and and then

398
00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:37,119
you get amazing stories. And those latter two are pioneers

399
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,519
of what's now called science fiction, but they at the

400
00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:46,519
time the word was sort of scientifiction or or you know,

401
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,559
various terms when fandom and science fiction were beginning to

402
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,920
emerge after the era of sort of the weird tale

403
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,400
and weird tales, And we'll we'll talk more about that,

404
00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:59,960
because that's actually integral to understand.

405
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 2: Palmer, I think, so, I think this is absolutely true.

406
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's an interesting time.

407
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 6: I mean, it's this post World War One era when

408
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sort of the world of science fiction that we knew

409
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,519
it under guys like H. G. Wells and Jules Verne

410
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was morphing kind of merging in with the lovecrafty and

411
00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:23,799
weird tale and it was getting voice in these publications.

412
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:27,079
And they were cheap reads. I mean they sold for

413
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,440
ten cents quarter at that time period, and you know,

414
00:23:31,519 --> 00:23:34,400
people could sit down around the you know, put their

415
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,319
feet up and read something that was more lurid than

416
00:23:36,319 --> 00:23:38,680
what they were getting on the on the radio. I mean,

417
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,200
don't forget most of this stuff as post Hayes code.

418
00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:46,279
So movies are not as interesting as and lurid as

419
00:23:46,319 --> 00:23:51,559
magazines like Amazing or True Detective or what people were able.

420
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Speaker 5: To buy, you know, down at the news rack.

421
00:23:54,039 --> 00:23:56,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can basically see this progression of them them

422
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,160
starting as adventuring fantasy, romances and westerns and all that,

423
00:24:01,759 --> 00:24:07,200
then being sort of increasingly the dregs where all kinds

424
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,599
of lurid stuff goes. Some of it's sexually lurids, some

425
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,319
of it's just other lurid. And as we're going to

426
00:24:14,319 --> 00:24:20,519
see this bifurcates into one could argue, more proper science

427
00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:22,839
fiction and fantasy, which then becomes the world of the

428
00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,839
paperback and then these that basically go into the sweats

429
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,119
of the fifties and early sixties. Listeners probably know them

430
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,039
best for the Frank Zeppa Weasels ripped my flesh comes

431
00:24:35,079 --> 00:24:39,680
from one of these stories of burly men fighting Nazi

432
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,920
dominatrixes and wild animals or both or all the above,

433
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,279
and then these end up just basically being the origins

434
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,640
of like mass porn magazines.

435
00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:50,039
Speaker 4: Yeah.

436
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,559
Speaker 6: I mean it's funny to watch because you know, my

437
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,759
nineteen thirties issues of these magazines are very readable and

438
00:24:56,799 --> 00:24:58,119
you could give them the kids.

439
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,839
Speaker 5: By the fifties it's pornography.

440
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, and writers like you know, more serious writers Block

441
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,880
and people like that who got started in these pulps

442
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,920
move on to paperbacks and novels and then later television

443
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:11,359
of course.

444
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Speaker 3: So the thing for kids is that comic books also emerge. Yeah,

445
00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:17,079
they also take a chunk.

446
00:25:16,839 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 6: Of those comic books become less dirty, which is what's funny,

447
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,640
Like post the comic books become less dirty and lurid.

448
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

449
00:25:24,039 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's a whole nother story there with the

450
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,119
seduction of the innocent and right easy comics and yeah,

451
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,759
so yeah.

452
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,279
Speaker 3: Well I think they're getting that from these roots, though.

453
00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 2: I mean absolutely, yeah, yeah, I.

454
00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:40,319
Speaker 6: Guess to set the stage, we're at a time when

455
00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:44,880
when Lovecraft has died, and you know, the these magazines

456
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,480
are being dominated by a weird, kind of transitionary kind

457
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,599
of writer that will turn into the modern science fiction

458
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,640
writer of the fifties, sixties, and seventies. And so Richard

459
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,279
Sharp Shaver comes on the stage at a time when

460
00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:02,039
people are looking for content.

461
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Speaker 5: I mean, to borrow.

462
00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 6: A phrase from the Internet, they're looking for stuff to

463
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,079
publish that will sell magazines.

464
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,799
Speaker 3: And there's one more piece. Many of these people are

465
00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:16,200
not so much Shaver, but many of these people are

466
00:26:16,759 --> 00:26:20,240
very young. Many of the people that are not only

467
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,359
so the thing that becomes fandom, the thing that becomes comics,

468
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,279
it becomes the fandom that supports all of this in

469
00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:31,319
the nineteen thirties, a lot of it coming from people

470
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,440
like the Lovecraft circle, like Robert Block, for example, are teenagers,

471
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,599
and there are some that are older, but a lot

472
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,000
of them, not only fans, are teenagers. They get jobs

473
00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:44,559
out of it. And we're going to see that with

474
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,799
Ray Palmer, where these basically these kids. So the fact

475
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:50,640
that this sounds a hell of a lot like the

476
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,799
Internet and creepypasta. There's multiple reasons. One, it's where everything

477
00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:58,279
that's not allowed in polite society goes and it's run

478
00:26:58,319 --> 00:27:00,640
by basically man children.

479
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 6: Well, don't forget when Shaver shows up. It's nineteen forty three.

480
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,480
The US has been in World War two for a

481
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,519
couple of minds, so it's a time for escapism. People

482
00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:12,880
who are too young to go to the war are

483
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,799
reading these things, versus people who are too old to

484
00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:18,680
go to the wars are kind of publishing and trying

485
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,000
to monetize them. So it's a really weird time in

486
00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:25,839
American literature where people just want to think about something

487
00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:28,240
that's not the Second World War.

488
00:27:28,759 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, but it's probably worth mentioning that this

489
00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:36,119
whole field of scientif fiction comes from a guy named

490
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,640
Hugo Gernsback, and we get the Hugo Award from him.

491
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,599
But he to me, when I was reading about this

492
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,039
and the birth of fandom, it felt almost like he

493
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,160
was sort of a Fagan character because he was relying

494
00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:52,000
so much on these young kids to kind of pull

495
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,559
the stories together, and he was doing a lot of

496
00:27:54,599 --> 00:27:57,519
reprints of HG. Wells that sort of thing.

497
00:27:57,799 --> 00:27:59,799
Speaker 3: Well, if that sounds a lot like early comics too,

498
00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:02,680
all the exploitation of the creators of all these characters

499
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,480
that are now billion dollar industries.

500
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's true, and I think Gernsmack wanted

501
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,079
to professionalize it, and he wanted it to be a

502
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,720
new kind of thing. He wanted this science fiction to

503
00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:18,960
inspire mostly boys, I guess, to be science people, to

504
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,759
promote science and technology.

505
00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: But well, I want to name drop something that I

506
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,680
think we've all pulled from here. An excellent book by

507
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,359
Fred Natis the man from Mars Ray Palmer's Amazing Pulp Journey,

508
00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:37,519
which is a biography of Palmer, but a lot of

509
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:39,559
it's also about Shaver. And the reason I want to

510
00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:42,039
name drop that right now is I think this also

511
00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:43,599
might help as a sort of a statement. Is where

512
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,400
we're going, he argues, and he pulls us from someone else.

513
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,279
I'm not going to pull up the flipnote that you

514
00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:52,000
have three basic characters, each of which is sort of

515
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:56,200
striving in a different direction. You have Hugo Gernsback, who

516
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,960
helps create scientifiction and literally wants to teach physics with it.

517
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,200
Like he literally wants to teach science and astronomy and

518
00:29:05,279 --> 00:29:08,160
have like the core of the story be a science thing,

519
00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:10,240
and let's have some characters to sort of sell it

520
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,200
to the youth. Like that is how he sees it.

521
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,000
And it's the it's the bright future. You've got your

522
00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:23,720
John Campbell, who we will probably talk about more, who

523
00:29:23,839 --> 00:29:26,960
is kind of in the mold of the self made

524
00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:30,359
man and adventure and daring do but still science. And

525
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,759
I want to bring in kind of literature, and he

526
00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:37,720
wants to make it legitimate literature. And then the third

527
00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:43,200
strain is Palmer, and as we're going to see, he

528
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:49,000
basically wants to mix this world with an already existing

529
00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:56,200
world of occultism, theosophy, weird ideas, weird tales, all of that.

530
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,359
And these are the three kind of forces straining here.

531
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's well said.

532
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,079
Speaker 1: Uh.

533
00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 2: And I think that although Campbell doesn't come up a

534
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,440
lot in The Man from Mars, uh, his role in

535
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,240
establishing science fiction yeah, to be what it is. It

536
00:30:13,359 --> 00:30:18,759
is kind of hard to overstate. Isaac Asimov basically divides

537
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:22,000
the world of science fiction into before and after Campbell,

538
00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:25,240
Like the coming of Campbell was like the single event.

539
00:30:25,519 --> 00:30:26,319
So though he.

540
00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:29,519
Speaker 3: Has his own weird aspects that we might get too,

541
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,039
and indeed we might we might clear that up.

542
00:30:34,519 --> 00:30:37,119
Speaker 2: And I feel like, well, I want to talk about Shaver.

543
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,400
I mean, this is an episode about Shaver. It does matter,

544
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,519
I think to talk a little bit about Palmer. Uh.

545
00:30:44,599 --> 00:30:46,359
Speaker 3: And I don't think you can divorce them.

546
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think no.

547
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:48,759
Speaker 3: I mean there are a lot of ways.

548
00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:49,119
Speaker 5: Yeah.

549
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,359
Speaker 6: So they're in terms of the product that is the

550
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,079
Shaver mysteries, they're they're one person. I mean, you have

551
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,480
Janitor Shaver who was probably mentally quite mentally ill, not

552
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,960
probably was, versus a guy who had quite an imagination.

553
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,039
But one thing that I want to do to set

554
00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:08,599
the stage a little further is that if these stories

555
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,759
had not hit the mark, we wouldn't remember them, they

556
00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:12,799
wouldn't have been successful.

557
00:31:12,839 --> 00:31:14,839
Speaker 5: What we're really talking about are sort.

558
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 6: Of these what becomes a kind of hollow Earth conspiracy.

559
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,799
And in nineteen forty three, when this shows up, the

560
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,319
concept of the hollow Earth is super relevant and valid.

561
00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:28,039
Speaker 5: At that time. You know, the Nazis have built a.

562
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 6: Lot of their sort of social religion around the concept

563
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,119
of rill and the idea of these earth energies. Hitler

564
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,839
had this idea that there could well Hitler and his people,

565
00:31:39,359 --> 00:31:43,160
that you that the Earth might be on the inside,

566
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,400
that us the people might be on the inside of

567
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,680
the earth. And so he sent expeditions across the Atlantic

568
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,200
to try to see if he could see the British

569
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,640
positions by looking out across the sky and all this

570
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:53,400
weird stuff.

571
00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:57,279
Speaker 3: Do we want to do a very very very like

572
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,960
one sentence each short trajectory of the hollow Earth, because

573
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:05,079
because you just dropped rill, so I think you should

574
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,160
ideas ideas of the hollow worth that you can find them,

575
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,960
or ideas of a world inside the world. You can

576
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,759
go back at least to the late Middle Ages. You

577
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:18,079
can hear this idea in various places, but it usually

578
00:32:18,079 --> 00:32:21,000
gets associated, at least from the tellings I've heard, with

579
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,160
the sort of the Enlightenment period, and particularly Edmund Halley.

580
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, ally is the first querson to scientificize it.

581
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 3: If you want to see it, to argue that there's

582
00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:33,880
there's weird magnetic fields and other things that can be

583
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,440
explained by there being multiple shells of earth inside, and

584
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,920
there's various versions and then a sort of local here

585
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,400
around here. John Clive Symes or John Cleeve Simes, a

586
00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:48,839
hero of the War of eighteen twelve in southwest Ohio

587
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,680
here not the war part where he settled, where his

588
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,039
father settled, also from the Revolutionary War. He was obsessed

589
00:32:56,039 --> 00:32:59,599
with this idea of Halley's and tried to convince in

590
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,039
the early in eighteen eighteen the American government to fund

591
00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:07,119
an expedition through a hole in the poll to what

592
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,640
he called in a novel Simsonia to get inside and basically, hey,

593
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,680
we're already conquering a continent. We're in the continent conquering business.

594
00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:18,519
Let's go do this. And he sent out circular one

595
00:33:18,559 --> 00:33:21,680
to everyone in Congress, everyone he could think of, which

596
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,960
included a statement that he wasn't crazy. It was always

597
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,720
a good start. And while this didn't really catch on,

598
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,640
it did actually help inspire the first major scientific expedition

599
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,440
of the United States federal government into the South Atlantic,

600
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,519
which actually helped create the Smithsonian in terms of part

601
00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:43,160
of its collections. And there is a monument in Hamilton, Ohio,

602
00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:47,359
about twenty miles from here, where he is buried, and

603
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,079
on top of it is a concrete will. It was concrete,

604
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:54,799
but stone hollow earth the next big one. And Jerry,

605
00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:56,599
I suspect you probably know this better than I do

606
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,680
would be Edward Bulwer Lytton.

607
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:02,799
Speaker 6: And he writes a book called The Coming of the

608
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:06,640
Future Race, which is interesting in its parallels to the

609
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:09,280
as we'll talk about to the the original title of

610
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,119
Shaver's uh first manuscript, which was called a Letter of

611
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,800
Future Man. Yeah, I'm actually I'm actually holding a copy

612
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,039
of Sims's circular.

613
00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 5: Here in my hand.

614
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 2: Oh, if you could scan it, we could put it

615
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:23,320
in the show notes.

616
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll do a scan of some of the stuff.

617
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: It does have. I mean that that is one of

618
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,239
my favorite bits of American marketing, uh, with the you know,

619
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,760
if if you'll pay, but I will happily go to

620
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,920
the poll and explore.

621
00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 6: It's out for not a It's just like that's how

622
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,880
David ply This makes all his money. I'm not really

623
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,519
looking for Bigfoot, but if you pay me, yeah, I'll

624
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:51,719
go on for Bigfoot. Yeah. Buller Lytton writes a work

625
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,320
of fiction which deals with this idea of earth energies

626
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,840
called Vrill, which is that's another whole mythology that we

627
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,159
don't want to get into, but the sort of wielded

628
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:04,880
by frog descended humanoids from the Earth.

629
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 3: By the way, you all know Bulger lit the employs.

630
00:35:08,119 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 5: By the way, in mythology, they.

631
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,559
Speaker 3: Kind of do, they kind of dot into it.

632
00:35:12,599 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 5: They become the reptoids later on.

633
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,119
Speaker 2: They yeah, yeah, yeah.

634
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,639
Speaker 3: He's the it was a dark and stormy night guy.

635
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 5: He is.

636
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:22,079
Speaker 6: He's the guy who wrote the novel with the But

637
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:24,679
the thing to remember about about Buler Litton is this

638
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,719
is a work of fiction, and it is a work

639
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,599
of fiction that hits home so strongly with a subset

640
00:35:32,679 --> 00:35:35,679
of Vulcan ranch Germans, people who kind of believed in

641
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,559
land and blood and all that great late eighteen eighties stuff.

642
00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 3: And also theostists, I mean, Blevati praises.

643
00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 6: It, and they decided just to believe it. They just

644
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,000
take it it's true.

645
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: And either like it's supposedly fiction, but it clearly isn't

646
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,960
because he's so tuned into everything we already know. So

647
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,119
we're going to see this happen again in the twentieth

648
00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:59,400
century where he writes a novel and you have a

649
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,119
major part and you know, theospice are not obscure. They're

650
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:05,400
a major part of the Western occult tradition, and they're like, yes,

651
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:06,440
this is all actually a thing.

652
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's and that's kind of scary. In itself. But

653
00:36:11,159 --> 00:36:13,599
that's also sort of what happens with the Shaver mysteries,

654
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,360
is that people start to believe it even though it

655
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,960
was never actually meant to be true, because it fits

656
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,159
so well into this tradition of the hollow Earth, underground

657
00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:26,280
societies and all that stuff. One thing I did want

658
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,760
to bring up before we get too deep into it,

659
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,800
you know, I think I've got to copy this thing

660
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:32,519
lean here too.

661
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,159
Speaker 5: Remember the Mound that HP Lovecraft.

662
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 6: Miz Elliot Bishop the Ghost wrote for Zelia Bishop. I

663
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,519
think it's like twenty nine to thirty, but a version

664
00:36:44,519 --> 00:36:46,920
of it comes out in nineteen forty and Weird Tales,

665
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,880
which of course is White Ray Palmer's.

666
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh no, I strongly suspect. So we'll get to

667
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:57,599
what Shaver talks about. I think I think one other

668
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,719
just we should mention for completeness. So there's not I

669
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,719
think a huge amount of relevance. Abraham Merritt's The moon Pool,

670
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,360
which was a big influence on Lovecraft and I think

671
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:10,400
sort of helped bridge the gap between the Coming Race

672
00:37:10,639 --> 00:37:15,199
and the Mound and Shaver. But no, it is hard

673
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,039
to read the Mound and not imagine that it's an

674
00:37:18,079 --> 00:37:20,079
influence on Shaver as far as.

675
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:24,039
Speaker 6: I can tell, the earliest American version of these sort

676
00:37:24,039 --> 00:37:26,280
of underground kingdoms being real.

677
00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:29,079
Speaker 5: Comes from a guy named G.

678
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 6: Warren Schulfeldt who was arguing that he had found a

679
00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:34,239
This is in nineteen thirty four.

680
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,119
Speaker 5: It shows up in the Los Angeles Times.

681
00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 6: He argues, Oh, yeah, underground city, you know, outside of

682
00:37:41,639 --> 00:37:44,920
LA right, inhabited by a bunch of lizard people.

683
00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: Well, people that worship the lizard totem, that's correct, like

684
00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:50,519
Native Americans.

685
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 6: And it gets sort of they were, and there actually

686
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,840
was some sights there, and allegedly the Smithsonian conspiracy came

687
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,079
in and they took all the bones, et et cetera,

688
00:37:59,199 --> 00:37:59,440
just the.

689
00:37:59,360 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 5: Way they take.

690
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,559
Speaker 6: I do as they do, as they do.

691
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,559
Speaker 3: So before we go further into Shaver, I would I

692
00:38:06,599 --> 00:38:09,320
would argue that we need to. So we mentioned the

693
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:15,039
mound basically for the listeners. Zelia Bishop is living out

694
00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:19,719
in Oklahoma, wants to have a story about a ghost

695
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:26,920
indigenous woman and a headless dude ghosts okay, yeah, and

696
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,320
a mound. And Lovecraft runs with this and writes this

697
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,679
huge story about uh super underground in human quasi human

698
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,119
civilizations and here's the point. They are super scientists. They

699
00:38:40,159 --> 00:38:44,559
can basically control anything, including biology. They can phase through things,

700
00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:47,920
they can create like limbless zombies and all of that.

701
00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:52,800
And they derive their only pleasure because their society has

702
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:58,800
gotten to the end of where societies go from sadistic entertainments.

703
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 6: Thedistic torture and entertainment. Yeah, the city is called Kenyon,

704
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,519
and the mound is a real place. It's in a

705
00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:06,480
place called Binger, Oklahoma. I've actually been there. I grew

706
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:08,199
up near Dallas, and of course, as soon as I

707
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,000
got a car, i had to go see the only

708
00:39:10,639 --> 00:39:13,400
piece of Lovecraft country in my part of the country.

709
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,280
And it's a weird place. I think it's a woodbine outleer.

710
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,639
For the geologists in the audience, there's those. Those are

711
00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:23,440
pretty common in the area of Oklahoma and North Texas

712
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,480
that were not fully scourged by the by the glaciation,

713
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,599
and it is weird looking. So it does look a

714
00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:32,360
lot of people thought for a long time that it

715
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,320
was man made and some kind of a pyramid. So

716
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,360
Zelia had something to work with. I think it's called

717
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,519
Dead Woman Mound, and the story that she came up

718
00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:46,480
with is basically local local folklore. But what Lovecraft rights,

719
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:48,599
I'm sure is not what she no.

720
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 3: I think literally he gets she gave him like one sentence.

721
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,639
Speaker 6: It's like one sentence if I remember the day Book, right,

722
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:55,719
it's like one sentence.

723
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he expanded quite a bit then, Yeah, it's I think.

724
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:04,599
Speaker 3: I think it's the longest of his ghost writings. And

725
00:40:05,199 --> 00:40:08,400
while it's really important, it is also really friggin hard

726
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,639
to read. Though I'll say this, I'd still rather read

727
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:14,800
it than I remember Lemuria.

728
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 2: So just I want to make sure we mentioned it.

729
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,440
I we went through a litany of Hollow Earth and

730
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,000
this sort of thing. Did we mention Egar, Rice Burros

731
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:24,840
and Pollucidar?

732
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 3: No, we did not.

733
00:40:26,599 --> 00:40:30,559
Speaker 2: I think we should because go ahead. In addition to Merit,

734
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,039
Shaver was a big fan of Eggarrice Bro's Pollucidar stories,

735
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:39,599
which are yet another hollow war story, as is a

736
00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:41,400
Journey to the Center of the Earth by HG.

737
00:40:41,519 --> 00:40:46,119
Speaker 3: Wells, which also has evil reptile people. So with I

738
00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:50,920
think psychic powers, hypnotic.

739
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, animal hit says I remember correctly, it's it's like glamouring.

740
00:40:55,599 --> 00:40:56,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, and correct me.

741
00:40:56,679 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 6: If I'm wrong.

742
00:40:57,639 --> 00:40:59,559
Speaker 3: They get there with a drill, but the evil lizard

743
00:40:59,559 --> 00:41:03,400
people on under the ground. They control like I think

744
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:11,599
ape men that are called sagoths, which is awful interesting. Yeah,

745
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,400
they use hypnotic powers to create a slave. Yeah, I've

746
00:41:16,519 --> 00:41:17,280
never heard of it.

747
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 6: Well, I think if you want to talk about Wells

748
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,280
and Vern's influence on Shaver, we'll drop one more, and

749
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,000
that's the time machine, which has the Morlocks and the Eloi,

750
00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:28,719
and that breaks down. I mean, we're gonna mention it

751
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,800
later pretty pretty cleanly into the concept of the Tarots

752
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,880
and the Darrow's are Tarot and Darrow. So I mean,

753
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,519
I guess the question is you know somebody was reading.

754
00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:40,559
I guess the way to set the stage is to

755
00:41:40,599 --> 00:41:43,920
say that in nineteen forty three, when Richard Shaver writes

756
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,320
this letter a Note the Future Man to Ray Palmer,

757
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,119
the idea of a hollow earth full of alien races

758
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,559
is not only in the pop culture, it's actually taken

759
00:41:57,639 --> 00:41:58,960
quite seriously by people.

760
00:41:59,119 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 5: So it arrives.

761
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 6: Shaver arrives at the right time for for what he

762
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:06,840
has to offer to be accepted by the populace.

763
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 3: He does.

764
00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 2: Although his initial writing would be what would you call that?

765
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:19,199
The slush pile are the kook Puppet, the crank file, it's.

766
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 3: It's the Green Letter Brigade.

767
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's.

768
00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:22,199
Speaker 6: Uh.

769
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:29,159
Speaker 2: His initial submission is not a narrative. It's not a story.

770
00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:31,679
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's we want to talk about where he

771
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,320
gets it from.

772
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,559
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about Yeah, let's mention what it is,

773
00:42:35,599 --> 00:42:37,199
and then we can talk about where you can get him.

774
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, well, I mean, yeah, he sends in,

775
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:45,360
according to Palmer, sends to amazing stories, which at this

776
00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:48,880
point while Palmer, when he takes it over, starts to

777
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,440
lean it less from and now you will learn astronomy

778
00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:56,159
to basically pulp daring do basically what we would know

779
00:42:56,199 --> 00:42:59,719
today as space opera like Star Wars. Basically he turns

780
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,599
it more or to Star Wars if you want to

781
00:43:01,679 --> 00:43:05,960
use that as a as a shorthand. It's science fiction,

782
00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:09,679
it's fantasy, it's it's the movies, it's comic books, like,

783
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,800
that's what it is. This guy Shaver's like, by the way,

784
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,840
here's ten thousand words. I have deciphered a ancient language

785
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:25,159
that's part of evil robot monsters under the ground. And

786
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,639
also all of this is real, So you.

787
00:43:29,599 --> 00:43:32,639
Speaker 6: Know who is Shaver? He's born in nineteen oh seven

788
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,559
in Burrowick, Pen, which is actually not far from where

789
00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:36,239
I'm at right now.

790
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 5: It's right outside Wilkes Barre. In fact, we rove through there.

791
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 3: Okay, that's where the area I grew up just above,

792
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:43,360
just north of the border.

793
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 6: Gotcha. Yeah, I'm sitting here in York, PA tonight, so

794
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,239
it's not to NPA's high Strangeness area anyway. But what's

795
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,159
interesting about the guy is he does a lot of

796
00:43:53,159 --> 00:43:55,679
wacky stuff, like he's in the John Reid Club and

797
00:43:56,199 --> 00:43:58,039
he kind of bums around for a long time. He

798
00:43:58,119 --> 00:44:00,880
later tells people that he was living as a hobo

799
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,239
at a time when he was actually in I believe

800
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,239
the Ipsilanti State Mental hospitals. Yeah, he's got a serious

801
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,000
history of mental illness, but he does manage to get married.

802
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,159
He's clearly a voracious reader, and that the gist of

803
00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:18,400
this letter that he writes to Palmer is about his deciphering.

804
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,440
Decipherment of this letter that he calls mantong, which sounds

805
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:28,039
suspiciously to me like mantong. Basically, what he's decided is

806
00:44:28,079 --> 00:44:31,280
that every letter of the alphabet, and by this he

807
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,679
means the English alphabet, not some er.

808
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 5: You know, proto Indo European alphabet has.

809
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:41,519
Speaker 6: A symbolic meaning of like.

810
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 5: A.

811
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 6: I don't want to say. But what he's actually saying

812
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,719
is that like the letter A represents a concept, the

813
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,960
letter B represents a concept.

814
00:44:54,199 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 3: Well, the natis gives one. He gives the example of ape.

815
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,079
Apes have animal power energy.

816
00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:03,639
Speaker 6: Yes, animal power energy. And in the case of the darrow,

817
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:09,239
which are the evil robots, that's detrimental energy robot. Yeah,

818
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:14,239
and the good guys are integrated robots, because in his language,

819
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,920
the word integration is the best thing you can be.

820
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:21,119
And for some reason to me this sounds completely idiotic.

821
00:45:21,199 --> 00:45:23,800
But for some reason, this is what god Ray Palmer going.

822
00:45:24,119 --> 00:45:28,719
Was this linguistic concept that he thought was definite proof

823
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,880
that the legend of Atlantis was true.

824
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 3: I'm not so surprised by that. So the thing this

825
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:42,679
immediately reminds me of is the work of Brassier di Borborg.

826
00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

827
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,079
Speaker 3: It is an important is an important Mayanist, an important

828
00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:53,719
student of Maya anthropology history. He is works in archives,

829
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,280
he writes fiction. In the middle of the nineteenth century,

830
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,559
he finds parts of an actual Maya book, a Maya codex.

831
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:08,239
He also finds more finds a elements of the Popol Vu,

832
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,360
which is this incredibly important piece of literature. All the

833
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,559
others had also found it. But the thing that he's

834
00:46:12,599 --> 00:46:15,800
most known for, and that is the most important, is

835
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,400
that he finds in the middle of the nineteenth century

836
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:24,000
a copy of Verlas Angeles closest to Yucatan. Basically, colonial

837
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:28,280
Spanish culture was incredibly litigious. It was assumed that people

838
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,440
in office would be corrupt, so when you left office,

839
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,559
you had to provide a defense of yourself, and the

840
00:46:35,679 --> 00:46:38,440
Archbishop of Yucatan, Diego de Landa, had done this in

841
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,760
the late sixteen hundreds. As to what did he do,

842
00:46:41,199 --> 00:46:45,400
he described the place he worked, Yukaton and the Maya people,

843
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:46,760
and this is where we get a lot of information

844
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,639
about early information about Maya kalndricks and numerals. The most

845
00:46:50,679 --> 00:46:58,159
important page is he gets this Maya noble to help

846
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:03,760
him translate Maya writing Maya hieroglyphs uh, and he asks

847
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,440
the guy please write ade please, because he's like, write

848
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:11,000
a sentence in your language. And he writes matingati, I

849
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:14,679
don't want to. I don't want to and he then

850
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,599
writes letras and it's a and B and C and dysh.

851
00:47:19,679 --> 00:47:22,639
It's a and bay and say and day and a

852
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,119
et cetera in Spanish, and that's important. Landa writes this,

853
00:47:27,199 --> 00:47:31,760
Delando writes this down. It is basically lost. Rosser Diborborg

854
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:37,320
finds it in the middle of the nineteenth century, and unfortunately,

855
00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:40,639
in addition to being a good archivist, Brassard Borborg was

856
00:47:40,639 --> 00:47:44,880
obsessed with Atlantis conspiracy theories and other ideas of weird shitology.

857
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,599
So he finds this thing and he doesn't interpret it

858
00:47:48,639 --> 00:47:51,920
the way it eventually is interpreted. We eventually realize the

859
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:53,639
work of your e Canora is off in the nineteen

860
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:59,440
fifties that when Diego DeLanda says, damn Mace, give me

861
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:04,079
the letter for h the guy writes ah and chay.

862
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,280
He writes out two syllables, and canaras offf eventually figures

863
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,400
it out, and that way goes the Miyad acidpherment, and

864
00:48:09,679 --> 00:48:13,760
that's a whole other story. DeLanda or excuse mean not Dalanda.

865
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:20,440
Bros Barborg takes this at face value oh eight, initially backwards.

866
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,159
Then he starts making translations, but he they're completely insane.

867
00:48:24,519 --> 00:48:27,800
Right on top of that, he believes that each one

868
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,960
of these letters has a super secret meaning in symbolism

869
00:48:33,519 --> 00:48:37,239
that ties it back to the destruction of Atlantis, because

870
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:38,239
of course it does.

871
00:48:39,039 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 4: Uh.

872
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 3: And on top of that, he thinks he finds the

873
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:49,800
name of Atlantis moo. Right, He basically create establishes the

874
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:54,599
word moo being associated with lost sunken continence. He inspires

875
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,440
his stuff is found in the work of ignatious Donnelly,

876
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,920
who basically creates the modern content of Atlantis, with Atlantis

877
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,159
the anti Liluvian world. It inspires the Lon Jean's and

878
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:06,639
Yucatan and many others.

879
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 6: Well, Jeb was talking. I brought up that chapter and

880
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,199
he's dead right, Like, there's a whole chapter here where

881
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,280
Donnelly lays out how the Mayan alphabet is basically a

882
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,639
history of it is a subtext history of Atlantis.

883
00:49:20,639 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 5: I'll scan you some of those pages because it is

884
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,039
sweet and we.

885
00:49:24,039 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 3: Don't want to go too far down this road. You've

886
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,119
actually talked about it before, but not so much that.

887
00:49:29,199 --> 00:49:33,880
But that word move continues to get associated with ideas

888
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:39,719
of sunken continents, including symbolic writing in the nineteen twenties

889
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:43,920
found on the Moostones dug up by William Nivin. I

890
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,320
happen to have four of them in the lab and

891
00:49:48,039 --> 00:49:51,280
interpreted by Colonel I'm doing a lot of air quoting.

892
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,239
You can't see James Church word. All of this is

893
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,320
part of the sort of theosophy and Theosophy adjacent occult world,

894
00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:05,159
which also produces the Ohaspi Bible, which Ray Palmer was

895
00:50:05,159 --> 00:50:06,360
a huge promoter of.

896
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 6: Right, So, I guess the question is who's who's the

897
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,039
person who out of the maybe hundreds of.

898
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 5: Thousands, if not millions.

899
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 6: Of words that got written about the Shaver mysteries, who's

900
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,199
the person that knew all that stuff?

901
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,159
Speaker 5: Was it Shaver or was it Palmer? Or was it

902
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:22,079
some of each?

903
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 3: I think some of each, but a lot of it's Palmer,

904
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,760
I think, Yeah, I think so, I think Palmer.

905
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:27,079
Speaker 6: Well.

906
00:50:27,119 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: I think the original manuscript is what ten thousand words,

907
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,800
and yeah, Palmer bumped it up to yeah, thirty thousand.

908
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,719
So but while we're talking about linguistic scholars, this this

909
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,760
whole thing about extending the meaning by looking at each

910
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:46,920
letter and applying symbolism to that. And another famous, uh

911
00:50:47,559 --> 00:50:52,599
sort of linguistic scholar who has done that very successfully

912
00:50:53,679 --> 00:50:59,199
is Gary Busey.

913
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, So I'm I'm pretty proud about knowing not

914
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,000
knowing what the you're talking about. Really, I mean, I

915
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,880
know there's a motorcycle accident at some point.

916
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 2: Gary before before the motorcycle accident was a very intimidating actor,

917
00:51:12,159 --> 00:51:15,159
h and he played a lot of heavies. Uh. And

918
00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:21,800
after the accident he had I mean apparently, uh, some

919
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,719
some brain damage. Where your helmets? People? Is the I

920
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,239
think the message you where your helmets?

921
00:51:27,559 --> 00:51:27,679
Speaker 3: Uh?

922
00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, he he constantly does this thing where he

923
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,960
will take a word and then he will take each

924
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:34,760
letter of the word.

925
00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 3: I had successfully forgotten that.

926
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it's the same kind of thing.

927
00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:46,079
Speaker 4: I have a hobby that's really wonderful because it helps

928
00:51:46,159 --> 00:51:49,480
me understand the meaning of one word with the sentence

929
00:51:50,079 --> 00:51:54,679
that reflects the words meaning and definition. These are called

930
00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:59,360
beer seisms. The word now in ow no other way,

931
00:51:59,639 --> 00:52:05,000
the word team, team together, everyone to change more.

932
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,199
Speaker 6: Well. One of the things we should mention then, is

933
00:52:08,199 --> 00:52:10,679
where Shaver does get it from. So he's he's working

934
00:52:10,679 --> 00:52:14,039
a welding job one day. Man, this is a little vague,

935
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,039
and we don't quite know what happens before that.

936
00:52:17,119 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 3: Before that, there's the whole thing with the demon.

937
00:52:19,639 --> 00:52:22,039
Speaker 5: Oh, go ahead, I'm not clear on that.

938
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 3: So yeah, So before that, his brother dies and he

939
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,719
becomes obsessed with the idea that a demon is stalking

940
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,039
him and his family. And I believe the demon's name

941
00:52:32,079 --> 00:52:33,960
is Max. I don't think it's the brother's name. I

942
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,280
think it's the demon's name. I could be wrong about that. Like,

943
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:37,880
so that's.

944
00:52:37,679 --> 00:52:40,599
Speaker 6: Already happened before about what you're about to say. So

945
00:52:40,639 --> 00:52:44,440
he's already got that going on and paranoid, yes, and

946
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,719
his welding machine malfunctions, and he believes that it gives

947
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,840
him the ability to hear the voices from his coworkers.

948
00:52:52,039 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can hear what you're thinking exactly.

949
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,599
Speaker 6: And then later on this power develops into his ability

950
00:52:57,599 --> 00:53:00,119
when he's laying in bed at night, to hear the

951
00:53:00,159 --> 00:53:04,239
voices of these darrows first and then these tarots later,

952
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,960
and they essentially start to tell him this story about

953
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,679
the Mantong language. And if we are shooting influencing rays

954
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:19,000
into his brain, which is not an uncommon symptom of

955
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:24,840
unchecked schizophrenia what they used to call paranoid schizophrenia. This

956
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,960
is something that actually is in my field a little bit,

957
00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:29,920
so I don't feel bad about being a doctor of

958
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:36,159
cognitive behavioral studies. The influencing machine is a concept where

959
00:53:36,159 --> 00:53:40,159
people believe that they are being told something or given

960
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:45,000
information from outside their body. And it was first documented

961
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,400
in the late seventeen hundreds, but there have been a

962
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,199
couple of famous people since then who have actually had

963
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,119
the influencing machine talking to them in their lives. Famously,

964
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,000
who is the killer up in New York City?

965
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 5: His dog told.

966
00:54:03,679 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, David.

967
00:54:04,639 --> 00:54:11,079
Speaker 6: So that's a classic example of the influence machinefluence.

968
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,039
Speaker 3: The phrase you're using on the origin of the influencing

969
00:54:12,119 --> 00:54:16,000
machine and schizophrenia written by Victor tosk in nice dreaded

970
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:18,960
nineteen and that that you.

971
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 6: Know, I mean, it's still a concept that we use

972
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,800
in cognitive studies. The idea of the influence machine is

973
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:28,920
a way of externalizing the internal voice and concrete to

974
00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:32,199
concretizing it, if you want to use that phrase. The

975
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,480
question that we ask ourselves is, you know, was you

976
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,760
know obviously if somebody were walking down the street today

977
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,639
and said their welding gun was telling them, you know

978
00:54:40,679 --> 00:54:44,079
about these ancient races of people, we wouldn't think twice

979
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:47,320
about wanting to have them medicated. But in the old days,

980
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,920
you have to wonder is Padre Pio was he somebody

981
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,880
that was influenced by that Saint Francis. I always kind

982
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,840
of wonder how much of our mythology is simply the

983
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:02,039
result of really compelling voices in people's head. And I

984
00:55:02,079 --> 00:55:05,079
think Shaver is a great example of how people can

985
00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:07,159
get carried away. I mean, the guy, in a way

986
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,320
was actually a victim more than a perpetrator of any

987
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:12,880
kind of oh hoax.

988
00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 3: I would absolutely agree with that. I don't know if

989
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,559
you can say that Shaver was exploited, especially since once

990
00:55:23,039 --> 00:55:27,880
he starts working with Palmer he seems to at least

991
00:55:28,039 --> 00:55:30,639
get better in terms of his everyday life. Although we'll

992
00:55:30,639 --> 00:55:35,519
talk about the Rock books thing. But yeah, no, he's not.

993
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:37,400
I don't know if exploits to write work, because maybe

994
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,559
there's actually some kind of art therapy or something going

995
00:55:39,599 --> 00:55:43,960
on here. Palmer, on the other hand, I'm sure we

996
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:49,079
will talk about where this all goes. Yeah he yeah,

997
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:51,079
he's not a victim of anything. Well, he's a victim

998
00:55:51,079 --> 00:55:52,920
of a truck. That's a different discussion.

999
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 6: So the book they eventually come up with, but it's

1000
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,519
novella length. It's over thirty thousand words. I mean, it's

1001
00:55:58,559 --> 00:56:01,599
a chunky story. I reread it the other day and

1002
00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:04,199
it about it about gave me a headache because I

1003
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,199
was trying to read it in the original format, which

1004
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,119
was not real smart.

1005
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 5: It's it's called I remember Lemuria.

1006
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 6: And you know, Lamuria is the fictional continent that was

1007
00:56:16,519 --> 00:56:20,280
supposed to hypothesize to exist between Madagascar and India.

1008
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 3: Initially starts as a scientific hypothesis but versapically gets picked

1009
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,480
up by Theosophists, specifically Blavatski in the eighteen sixties.

1010
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:32,760
Speaker 6: And this is another piece of concretization of something that's

1011
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,920
totally fictional or hypothetical. It has the name Lemuria because

1012
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,639
the guy who postulated the original idea didn't understand why

1013
00:56:40,679 --> 00:56:43,920
the creatures of Madagascar were more similar to the creatures

1014
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,440
that were found living We're in the fossil record in India.

1015
00:56:47,599 --> 00:56:51,559
Speaker 3: It's literally lemur Ea, lemur Ea, and it comes from

1016
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,079
Murs and the theosophists actually, and of course Palmer himself

1017
00:56:56,519 --> 00:56:58,920
decided that that was the actual name of the place.

1018
00:57:00,679 --> 00:57:02,360
Why not, Yeah, I mean, why not?

1019
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 6: It was a good name. You could have called it Moo.

1020
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,840
You could have called it Atlantis or I believe that

1021
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:12,199
Tamil have in their mythology a sunken continent that the

1022
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:16,760
Theospis ofventually in the modern era sort of connected Lemurria with.

1023
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,119
But nope, they went straight with the basic name.

1024
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 3: And it's kind of hard to separate Moo and Lemuria.

1025
00:57:23,719 --> 00:57:27,960
Like Moo is clearly supposed to Churchwards, Moo feels a

1026
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,920
lot like Levatski's Lamurria, and most people, I think, actually

1027
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:37,000
combined the two. I'm not sure it matters except in

1028
00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:41,280
very specific historical contexts, right, But you know.

1029
00:57:41,239 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 6: If you're trying to explain Easter Island or Stoneworks in

1030
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:52,559
Polynesia and stuff Tulu, it's a very convenient uh rhetorical

1031
00:57:52,559 --> 00:57:54,320
device to have stuck out there in the Pacific.

1032
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:59,159
Speaker 2: And I'm drinking a Moscow mew right now, So that's

1033
00:57:59,159 --> 00:57:59,920
that's awesome.

1034
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 5: So a Moscow I'm wandrincken.

1035
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:09,679
Speaker 2: Well, a Moscow move move, it's got the I've got

1036
00:58:09,719 --> 00:58:13,559
my Crystal Skull vodka, uh and fresh lives.

1037
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, as always, I'm concerned about the malaria, so

1038
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:17,880
I'm having some quinine.

1039
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so I have read the biography of Ray

1040
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:30,679
Palmer and I've read some of the biography of Richard Shaver,

1041
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,880
but what I failed to read, or I found it

1042
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,840
very difficult to read, was the actual I remember Lemoria.

1043
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,519
I just had a hard time. But it's such an

1044
00:58:40,519 --> 00:58:44,039
influential thing, Jerry, were you able to get into it.

1045
00:58:44,679 --> 00:58:47,079
Speaker 6: I've read it a couple of times now, I read

1046
00:58:47,119 --> 00:58:48,320
it magnificently.

1047
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I h this is my first time through it

1048
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,960
specific for this podcast, and I'm not sure I'm ever

1049
00:58:55,039 --> 00:58:55,880
going to forgive you Blake.

1050
00:58:55,960 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I couldn't. I will because now I have

1051
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:01,039
to solid air.

1052
00:59:01,159 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 6: I'm not.

1053
00:59:01,599 --> 00:59:08,079
Speaker 3: I'm not really sure you do. Actually, I like, what's

1054
00:59:08,119 --> 00:59:11,960
it like? Well, okay, let I there's a fawn girl.

1055
00:59:12,719 --> 00:59:16,119
It starts right there. I don't know it's it was

1056
00:59:16,199 --> 00:59:17,440
nearly incomprehensible.

1057
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:25,199
Speaker 6: Imagine, I don't know the John Carter of Mars written

1058
00:59:25,239 --> 00:59:27,079
by four chan, and.

1059
00:59:27,119 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 3: But more than a touch of tumbler with which the

1060
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:31,239
furry elephant.

1061
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, apparently a lot of riders work on it,

1062
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,400
and I don't get that sense at all. It feels

1063
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:43,599
like somebody wrote it out in a in a day. Yeah,

1064
00:59:43,639 --> 00:59:47,159
you know, progressively getting a little bit drunker.

1065
00:59:47,559 --> 00:59:51,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, just when they go on, just constant trash jargon

1066
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,280
like stem rays and knees and that, and like seventy

1067
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,960
foot tall snake women who you know, the the elders

1068
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:05,639
get bigger and bigger and constant, the constant allure of

1069
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:12,480
giant women. And yeah it the Internet has existed for

1070
01:00:12,559 --> 01:00:15,480
far longer than you realize. Wow, it just happened to

1071
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:16,239
be on paper.

1072
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 6: So it's got I mean the first ti I'm looking

1073
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:24,760
at it here the first paragraph says, this will give

1074
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:27,519
you a flavor. I was working in the studio of

1075
01:00:27,679 --> 01:00:30,239
Artan Grow when I heard a great laugh behind me.

1076
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,880
If ever there was a derision in a laugh, there

1077
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,039
was a derision in this one. I flung down my

1078
01:00:36,199 --> 01:00:39,119
gaudy brushes and my palate, and turned about in rage

1079
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,880
to find the master himself, his red cave, red cave

1080
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,960
of a mouth wide open in his black beard. I

1081
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,760
cooled my temper with an effort for great Indeed is

1082
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:53,159
artan Grow, master artist of subatline. The whole damn thing

1083
01:00:53,199 --> 01:00:55,920
goes on like that one big run on paragraph. It's

1084
01:00:56,000 --> 01:01:03,039
Lord Dunsany to the fiftieth degree. Oh funky phrases, you know,

1085
01:01:03,159 --> 01:01:06,320
weird hoogety boogey kind of made up place names.

1086
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 5: It's just very difficult to reach.

1087
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:09,679
Speaker 3: Well, I would go even farther than that. I would

1088
01:01:09,719 --> 01:01:13,360
absolutely agree that what you just read with the run

1089
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:19,199
on sentences is quite representative. But there's there's two there's

1090
01:01:19,239 --> 01:01:22,880
there's several other elements. So one there's footnotes. Oh yeah,

1091
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,480
there's footnotes to try to make this be more real.

1092
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:33,119
So for example, at one point we're looking at where's

1093
01:01:33,119 --> 01:01:36,800
his footnote? Oh yes, uh, soon I was striding between

1094
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:39,400
the pillaring fangs of the great Beast's mouth. That was

1095
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,760
the door of the Hall of Symbols, where the school's

1096
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:45,000
school ways converged. About was the bustle attendant to any

1097
01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:49,599
roll at way station bearers rushing traveling, gazing about, lost

1098
01:01:49,639 --> 01:01:52,440
in wonder at the vaulting glitter of sculptured pillars and

1099
01:01:52,519 --> 01:01:55,440
painted walls done by men of a caliber whose work

1100
01:01:55,719 --> 01:01:59,480
row like myself, cannot grasp entirely. Roe having a footnote

1101
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,760
here again are we had to appeal to mister Shaver

1102
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,599
for application amplification. We certainly got it, and along with

1103
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,239
some amazing thoughts. Roe, he says, is a thing of simple,

1104
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,840
repetitive life pattern, easy to understand and control. To row

1105
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,199
you is to make you do things against your will.

1106
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,679
A large generator of thought impulse can be set up

1107
01:02:18,719 --> 01:02:21,199
to row a whole group of people. Row the boat

1108
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,119
with w the other row doesn't have is modern and

1109
01:02:24,159 --> 01:02:26,960
the meaning has become physical force and not mental force.

1110
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,360
Row the people was an ancient method of government. Romantic

1111
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,320
was the name of such a government. Row Man Tick

1112
01:02:33,719 --> 01:02:37,199
science of man life patterning by control. And it continues.

1113
01:02:38,159 --> 01:02:41,000
It's like that for the whole thing, except for when

1114
01:02:41,039 --> 01:02:43,559
he's admiring the tale of his fawn girlfriend.

1115
01:02:44,199 --> 01:02:44,599
Speaker 2: Wow.

1116
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 3: And by fawn I mean half dear.

1117
01:02:46,719 --> 01:02:49,599
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I just came back from an

1118
01:02:49,639 --> 01:02:54,840
anime convince, So yeah yeah.

1119
01:02:54,039 --> 01:02:57,239
Speaker 3: The whole book is like that and gets worse as

1120
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:02,880
it goes, because once it mentions and rais and it's like,

1121
01:03:03,039 --> 01:03:04,599
now I'm going to have forty of them.

1122
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 2: Wow.

1123
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,239
Speaker 3: Like I said, the Mound is considered one of Lovecraft's

1124
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,079
worst stories, and it is a thousand times more readable

1125
01:03:13,119 --> 01:03:13,360
than this.

1126
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,519
Speaker 6: My assumption is that from the footnotes is basically that's

1127
01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:19,960
the meat and potatoes of shape.

1128
01:03:19,639 --> 01:03:20,679
Speaker 3: That actually came from Shaver.

1129
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, I think.

1130
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:27,159
Speaker 3: I think the vast majority of the ancient society stuff

1131
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:31,960
came from Palmer, who again was deep. So we mentioned

1132
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,079
the Ohaspi Bible. Now that's the thing I have not read.

1133
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,880
I have sampled it. It is fifteen hundred pages, but

1134
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:45,039
it's basically a theosophy adjacent early kind of ancient Aliens book,

1135
01:03:45,519 --> 01:03:49,679
like one hundred and thirty years ago, and he shape

1136
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,960
Palmer eventually became such an at a hero and advocate

1137
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,800
of it. He republished it and was putting it out there.

1138
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:59,280
I get the feeling that almost all of the La

1139
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:03,480
Murious is coming from is coming from Palmer. Yeah.

1140
01:04:03,519 --> 01:04:09,679
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, well, you know, Palmer is obviously also well

1141
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,760
read in the classics of sci fi, and his first

1142
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,079
pro sale was to Gernsback and it was a story

1143
01:04:17,119 --> 01:04:20,960
called the tim Ray of Jandra, and in that there's

1144
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:25,159
an ancient city in a lost jungle and the people

1145
01:04:25,239 --> 01:04:28,920
in there are trying to drill to the center of

1146
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:32,760
what a hollow earth, which is full of riches. So

1147
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,519
he had already gotten that hollow earth sort of mentality.

1148
01:04:36,599 --> 01:04:39,679
Speaker 3: But then there's horrible disaster, which is also every turn

1149
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:41,840
in I remember Lemuria.

1150
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 2: So we got the hollow earth, but we also have

1151
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,079
this whole thing about the Darrow and the taro. Can

1152
01:04:46,119 --> 01:04:50,440
you explain that that's uh, because because she ever believed

1153
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,679
people were influencing him these these it was it wasn't

1154
01:04:53,719 --> 01:04:55,559
just that there's a hollow earth, it was that the people.

1155
01:04:55,559 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the hollow earth is like literally the least

1156
01:04:57,519 --> 01:04:57,880
part of this.

1157
01:04:58,159 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1158
01:04:58,519 --> 01:05:01,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, let's let's call the Atlanteans. They're the people

1159
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:06,400
that lived on Atlin And apparently in the far distant

1160
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:09,719
past we can call it. Can we skype in Robert

1161
01:05:09,719 --> 01:05:14,119
Shock to confirm or deny this? Apparently in the far

1162
01:05:14,199 --> 01:05:18,440
distant past, the sun had a solid like a like

1163
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:21,480
an M and M shell around it, and as it

1164
01:05:21,599 --> 01:05:25,159
began to fail, the people that lived on this continent

1165
01:05:25,239 --> 01:05:28,480
could not survive. So there was a plan to.

1166
01:05:28,719 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 6: Vacate the earth to go elsewhere and survive, but a

1167
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,039
large group, a contingent of the society, didn't want to

1168
01:05:36,079 --> 01:05:39,000
do it, so they were sort of sabotaged in their

1169
01:05:39,039 --> 01:05:44,400
attempt and YadA YadA, YadA, giant sexy women and daring

1170
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:48,320
do Later, a bunch of folks decided to stay behind

1171
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:52,280
and Morlock style, they sort of devolved into these pot

1172
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:57,000
bellied you know, disease they've got all kind of heart

1173
01:05:57,039 --> 01:06:01,360
diseases and weird stuff wrong with them. Bad guys who

1174
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:06,599
are very similar to the residence of Kenyon in Lovecrafts.

1175
01:06:06,159 --> 01:06:11,760
They're sadistic exactly. They're totally decadent, totally animals.

1176
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I will.

1177
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,079
Speaker 3: Say the original Morlocks. I kind of like them. I'm

1178
01:06:17,079 --> 01:06:21,039
not a big fan of the evoy but continue.

1179
01:06:20,239 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 6: The society has has declined, and these these detrimental energy

1180
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,440
robots that Darrow's are still around, and they're sort of

1181
01:06:28,519 --> 01:06:32,400
the influencing machine that is that is pestering poor Shaver.

1182
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,559
Speaker 3: And they're harmed by the sun's rays because the sun's

1183
01:06:35,599 --> 01:06:40,039
rays are toxic to everything. And at one point Shaver

1184
01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:42,800
and Palmer, once they've become partners and actually end up

1185
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:48,960
living near each other, try to improve their diets by only,

1186
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:54,679
according to Shaver's teachings, eating very young things like young

1187
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:58,360
plants and young animals because they haven't been exposed to

1188
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:00,199
the sun long. Yeah.

1189
01:07:01,079 --> 01:07:06,559
Speaker 2: Gross, It's like I'm not a vegetarian. I'm a vialetarian.

1190
01:07:07,039 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, a vegetarian, but still gross. I like I like

1191
01:07:11,039 --> 01:07:12,679
my cheese to be old though.

1192
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 5: Not sun exposed.

1193
01:07:15,159 --> 01:07:18,039
Speaker 6: So the tarots, on the other hand, are the are

1194
01:07:18,079 --> 01:07:21,800
the integrated robots, and they are analogous kind.

1195
01:07:21,639 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 3: Of the angels.

1196
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:27,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're like angels and probably linked to angelic beings,

1197
01:07:27,599 --> 01:07:29,639
and they're the ones trying to help the human race

1198
01:07:30,639 --> 01:07:34,960
resist the the negative influence of the darrow And And

1199
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,159
the story is really a lot about that first battle.

1200
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,920
The first story I remember Lemuria is all about that.

1201
01:07:43,239 --> 01:07:47,079
Then the return to Snathas is the second one, and

1202
01:07:47,119 --> 01:07:50,639
that's sort of what happened back on on Moo later

1203
01:07:50,719 --> 01:07:55,000
on down the road related to this conflict. And I

1204
01:07:55,039 --> 01:07:57,559
get I don't One thing that I've not been able

1205
01:07:57,599 --> 01:08:00,480
to understand is what the Darro's motivation is is like,

1206
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:03,440
are they're not really trying to conquer the earth.

1207
01:08:04,039 --> 01:08:06,719
Speaker 3: I think that they're just broken. I think that they're

1208
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,679
just diseased and so they just do evil things because

1209
01:08:09,719 --> 01:08:11,280
their minds are warped.

1210
01:08:11,719 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 5: That seems to be the case.

1211
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,520
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't know if they're a metaphor for

1212
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:20,880
you know, Nazis and Japanese imperialists at the time, or

1213
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,439
I'm always trying to find uh, you know what.

1214
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,680
Speaker 3: I By the time it gets to Palmer, I think

1215
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,920
they may be atamor metaphor for something else, because no

1216
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,119
theorists you know where I'm going with that.

1217
01:08:32,239 --> 01:08:33,039
Speaker 6: Yeah, here we go.

1218
01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:35,319
Speaker 5: If no Jews, no news, right.

1219
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:39,560
Speaker 3: I mean no, the Palmer later gets into some real

1220
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:43,359
trouble with with anti Semitism. Yeah, and this is this

1221
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:49,920
would not be the only example of various secular conspiracy

1222
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:54,399
theories basically replicating the medieval blood libel, which then goes

1223
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:56,439
through which trials and ghost are also stuff and has

1224
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,880
never gone away, which we see in stuff like Pizzagate

1225
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:04,000
and QAnon today. And there's more than a hint of that.

1226
01:09:05,239 --> 01:09:07,880
And frankly, I would argue some of the artwork used

1227
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:12,960
to illustrate the DROs looks a lot like stereotypes of

1228
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,159
anti Semitic stereotypes of the twentieth century.

1229
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:17,600
Speaker 6: So if you ever, if you ever take a look

1230
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:23,640
at that All Shaver Mystery edition that's got the Darrow's

1231
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,920
on it, it is a virtual you know who's who

1232
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,159
gallery of anti Semitic execs.

1233
01:09:30,159 --> 01:09:32,159
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't show that imagery in class when

1234
01:09:32,159 --> 01:09:34,159
I talk about this, and I talk about the origins

1235
01:09:34,199 --> 01:09:36,239
of flying saucers in case you were anywhere we're going

1236
01:09:37,039 --> 01:09:39,920
and all of that, I don't show that stuff because

1237
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:44,560
I'm like, yeah, no, it's it's Yeah, no, I think

1238
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:45,720
that's kind of where this is going.

1239
01:09:46,039 --> 01:09:49,119
Speaker 2: We probably need to take a break. When we come back,

1240
01:09:49,239 --> 01:09:51,720
let's talk about how this stuff does lead into the

1241
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:55,399
world where Ray Palmer becomes the father of flying saucers.

1242
01:09:55,399 --> 01:10:00,119
It's really interesting. More obstrut you've been listening to months

1243
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,720
the Science Show about Monsters. I'm Blake Smith, and you

1244
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:06,880
just heard a discussion with Jerry Drake and Jebcard about

1245
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,000
the strange history of theories around the Hollow Earth and

1246
01:10:10,079 --> 01:10:14,239
the collaboration between Richard Shaver and Raymond Palmer that became known.

1247
01:10:14,079 --> 01:10:15,399
Speaker 1: As the Shaver Mysteries.

1248
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:18,560
Speaker 2: Tune into the next episode for the conclusion, in which

1249
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:21,520
we learn how Ray Palmer becomes known as the father

1250
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:26,000
of UFOs and what happens to Shaver Palmer and the

1251
01:10:26,079 --> 01:10:32,319
narrative of the Darros and the Tarots. Morenstert, Welcome to

1252
01:10:32,399 --> 01:10:35,640
Monster Talk, the Science Show about Monsters. I'm Blake Smith.

1253
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,039
In this episode, we're going to continue our look into

1254
01:10:38,039 --> 01:10:41,640
the curious narrative created by Richard Shaver and Ray Palmer

1255
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:45,439
and its impact on culture. I'm tempted to say American culture,

1256
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,399
but honestly, this got bigger than that. As you'll hear

1257
01:10:48,399 --> 01:10:52,159
in the interview. Palmer was an early and prominent member

1258
01:10:52,239 --> 01:10:55,960
of science fiction's fandom. His interests even predates the use

1259
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,239
of the phrase science fiction. He'd been involved when Hugo

1260
01:10:59,239 --> 01:11:02,680
Gernsback was a encouraging everyone to call it scientifiction and

1261
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:06,960
abbreviating that as STF instead of the more widely known

1262
01:11:07,079 --> 01:11:11,640
term sci fi, which is abbreviated as SF. Fans have

1263
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:14,560
been arguing about which term to use for the field

1264
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:18,399
since the nineteen thirties. In two thousand and nine, when

1265
01:11:18,399 --> 01:11:22,279
the television network the Sci Fi Channel, which was spelled SciFi,

1266
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:27,279
changed it to sci Fi spelled Syfy, it rekindled this

1267
01:11:27,399 --> 01:11:29,560
argument yet again about what the name should be for

1268
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:32,920
this field of literature. That the selection of what name

1269
01:11:33,039 --> 01:11:35,439
to call a group with common interests would be the

1270
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,640
kind of wedge that could split people into factions should

1271
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,920
not be surprising to listeners in a world where people

1272
01:11:42,039 --> 01:11:45,039
routinely split into factions around what TV shows they like

1273
01:11:45,119 --> 01:11:48,600
to watch within this genre, or split into groups around

1274
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:52,439
fictional characters such as Team Cap or Team Stark, or

1275
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:56,239
a Team Edward versus Team Jacob, or a Team jar

1276
01:11:56,479 --> 01:12:00,960
Jar versus Team Annie. Anyway, the point is, people who

1277
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:03,640
have lots of reasons to join together can find plenty

1278
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:06,239
of reasons to split apart. Whatever you want to call it,

1279
01:12:06,359 --> 01:12:09,000
fantom at this time was in its infancy. The word

1280
01:12:09,119 --> 01:12:12,920
fan is a diminutized version of fanatic. When you're a

1281
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,159
fan of something, you may find yourself quite passionate about

1282
01:12:16,199 --> 01:12:18,720
stuff that you're really not in a position to have

1283
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,159
control over. Your joys and disappointments become rallying points for

1284
01:12:22,239 --> 01:12:25,600
you and others like you. Fans of science fiction quickly

1285
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:30,560
connected via mailing lists, home brewed newsletters, local clubs, and

1286
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:33,560
of course, through the letters pages of their favorite magazines.

1287
01:12:34,199 --> 01:12:37,359
Insider terminology was developed which could be used to identify

1288
01:12:37,399 --> 01:12:40,479
other fans. For example, a collection of fans could be

1289
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:43,920
called a Finn, similar to how the plural version of

1290
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:44,720
man is men.

1291
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 1: This linguistic development is still ongoing.

1292
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:52,239
Speaker 2: Terms like fanfic a fan written fiction that occurs within

1293
01:12:52,279 --> 01:12:56,640
the setting of some popular intellectual property or shipping when

1294
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:01,199
someone fervently wishes that particular characters would form strong romantic relationships.

1295
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:06,640
Are slashfic, which describes non canonical fanfic involving characters having sexual,

1296
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:10,880
often homosexual liaisons. Despite the many reasons fans might be

1297
01:13:11,039 --> 01:13:14,159
united by their common interests, these early fans almost immediately

1298
01:13:14,199 --> 01:13:18,239
factionalized around politics, ideas, around the direction of the field,

1299
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:22,399
over capitalism versus socialism, and even over a variety of

1300
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:26,880
made up religions. Sorry, Flying Spaghetti Monster and Reverend Bob Dobbs,

1301
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:30,760
your biding satirical take on religion is not new. I'll

1302
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:32,279
put a link in the show notes to a site

1303
01:13:32,319 --> 01:13:35,880
called encyclopedia dot org, which is just full of deep

1304
01:13:36,079 --> 01:13:39,840
esoteric history around science fiction fandom. It's a fascinating resource

1305
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:41,399
if you want to see how we got to now.

1306
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:45,239
And as Jerry and Jeb describe, the Internet culture on

1307
01:13:45,319 --> 01:13:48,039
these fan topics is merely the electronic version of a

1308
01:13:48,119 --> 01:13:51,279
much longer pin and paper tradition. We talked a little

1309
01:13:51,279 --> 01:13:53,920
bit in Part one about how Richard Shaver had been

1310
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:56,640
struggling with mental illness, and how Ray Palmer took his

1311
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:01,399
story of detrimental robots and integrated robots the Darrow and Terot,

1312
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:04,560
and expanded on it and then framed it as both

1313
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:07,720
real and reminiscent of a pre existing body of lore

1314
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:11,399
with which many readers would have already been familiar. He

1315
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:14,920
was blurring the lines between fact and fiction and did

1316
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:18,319
not give a fig about it. This delighted some readers

1317
01:14:18,359 --> 01:14:21,359
and infuriated others, and have included a brief clip from

1318
01:14:21,399 --> 01:14:24,880
the Long John nebl Show which includes audio of Ray Palmer,

1319
01:14:25,239 --> 01:14:28,640
Richard Shaver, and of course Long John talking about this topic.

1320
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:30,600
When you hear the show turn into a sort of

1321
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:33,399
old timey recording, that's me playing the clip, which I

1322
01:14:33,399 --> 01:14:37,359
forgot to introduce. A link to the full episode of

1323
01:14:37,399 --> 01:14:39,760
Long John Nebel's party Line will be in the show notes.

1324
01:14:42,039 --> 01:14:43,640
A couple of words come up in this interview that

1325
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:45,119
are not very common, so I'm going to go ahead

1326
01:14:45,119 --> 01:14:47,079
and define them here just in case you aren't familiar

1327
01:14:47,079 --> 01:14:50,079
with them. The first one is shibbaleth, a word or

1328
01:14:50,159 --> 01:14:53,439
saying used by adherents of a party or sect or

1329
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:55,840
belief and usually regarded by others.

1330
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:58,199
Speaker 1: As empty of real meaning. These are different from.

1331
01:14:58,159 --> 01:15:01,239
Speaker 2: Jargon, which are specialized terms with precise meaning for a

1332
01:15:01,279 --> 01:15:04,720
technical profession. I like the word because of the story

1333
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:06,840
behind it. It was a term used in the Bible,

1334
01:15:07,279 --> 01:15:10,239
where there was this common word shibolith, and it became

1335
01:15:10,279 --> 01:15:13,840
a password to distinguish between members of one tribe from

1336
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,720
possible impostures from another tribe who couldn't pronounce the sh

1337
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:21,119
sound because it wasn't part of their native tongue.

1338
01:15:21,199 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 1: The other word I wanted to fine.

1339
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:27,279
Speaker 2: Is reification, to consider or represent something that's abstract as

1340
01:15:27,399 --> 01:15:31,359
material or concrete, to give definite or concrete form to

1341
01:15:31,399 --> 01:15:35,279
a concept or idea. This term reification is about making

1342
01:15:35,319 --> 01:15:38,359
something like an idea into a more concrete form, but

1343
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,239
the word also has multiple meanings.

1344
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:40,760
Speaker 1: In various fields.

1345
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:43,680
Speaker 2: For example, there's a logical fallacy where you would argue

1346
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:45,600
against an idea as though or a real thing, and

1347
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:50,039
that's considered to be a reification fallacy. And in information technology,

1348
01:15:50,079 --> 01:15:53,079
reifications when you fully define a data model so that

1349
01:15:53,119 --> 01:15:55,439
you've got a complete, functional, virtual model.

1350
01:15:55,199 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: Of a real thing.

1351
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:59,239
Speaker 2: Amusingly to me, I had to look this up myself,

1352
01:15:59,279 --> 01:16:01,279
despite the fact that I do that very kind of

1353
01:16:01,279 --> 01:16:03,640
work all the time without ever using that term. So

1354
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:05,680
I'm not sure who in the IT world uses the

1355
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:09,000
word reification, but I know that everybody in software development

1356
01:16:09,159 --> 01:16:12,720
is doing it during the process of making software. We

1357
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:16,800
also briefly discussed in this interview the contact ee UFO movement.

1358
01:16:17,359 --> 01:16:20,680
Early UFO history includes a variety of people who came

1359
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:24,000
for to say they'd been contacted by intelligent humanoids from

1360
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,199
outer space. Now, this is quite different from the abductees

1361
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:32,319
who occur later. The abductees are taken against their will.

1362
01:16:32,359 --> 01:16:37,560
The contactes are mostly happily contacted by these intelligences. These

1363
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:40,680
include people like George van Tassel, who also started a

1364
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,640
large UFO convention in the desert at Giant Rock. There's

1365
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:47,199
Georgia Damski, who was another contactee who was also previously

1366
01:16:47,199 --> 01:16:48,920
involved in theosophy.

1367
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:51,439
Speaker 1: And ran a Hamburger stand. And I'm not being tried.

1368
01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:53,840
Speaker 2: He really did run the Hamburger stand and would tell

1369
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:56,680
customers all about his UFO experiences in addition to writing

1370
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:59,479
books about his work with the aliens and being interviewed.

1371
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:04,000
We've also talked about Woody Dedrenberger before, who's probably most

1372
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,920
well known for his meeting with Indrid Cold, as depicted

1373
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:09,720
in the movie The Mothmon Prophecies. I've said it before,

1374
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:12,319
but if your only knowledge of Indrid Colds from the movie,

1375
01:17:12,319 --> 01:17:14,239
you should take the time to either read The Mothmaon

1376
01:17:14,239 --> 01:17:17,840
Prophecies or read Woody's own book about his meeting, or

1377
01:17:18,199 --> 01:17:20,319
you know what, you can listen to an interview with

1378
01:17:20,399 --> 01:17:22,880
Darren Berger himself talking about meeting Indrid.

1379
01:17:23,319 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 1: I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

1380
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 2: If you've ever been frightened by the movie version or

1381
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:29,640
had trouble sleeping because of it, I think hearing Woody's

1382
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,399
own story will probably allay your worries. And if you

1383
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:35,000
do find yourself spooked by the movie version, you can

1384
01:17:35,039 --> 01:17:37,600
think rich HadAM, who has appeared on Monster Talk and

1385
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:40,399
who kindly bought me some very nice cocktails in real life.

1386
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:42,279
Speaker 1: I thank you a lot, Richard. I owe you a

1387
01:17:42,319 --> 01:17:44,720
couple of rounds. Man. I need to get to la

1388
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:48,439
and have some kind of Monster Talk meetup sometime. Okay.

1389
01:17:49,199 --> 01:17:52,920
Speaker 2: Finally, while the core material of the Shaver Mystery comes

1390
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:55,119
to Richard Shaver, as we discussed in part one of

1391
01:17:55,159 --> 01:17:59,159
the show, Ray Palmer expanded the text considerably and was

1392
01:17:59,199 --> 01:18:04,000
probably respond possible for much of the theosophical, Atlantean, Lemurian

1393
01:18:04,319 --> 01:18:07,159
and other referential material that ties the Shaver stories to

1394
01:18:07,399 --> 01:18:10,840
other works around the Hollow Earth, lost civilizations, and ultimately

1395
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:13,640
to ancient alien lore that already existed prior to the

1396
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:14,479
nineteen forties.

1397
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:17,439
Speaker 1: We read a lot.

1398
01:18:17,239 --> 01:18:20,079
Speaker 2: Of material to prepare for the show, with the biography

1399
01:18:20,159 --> 01:18:23,479
of Palmer called The Man from Mars. Ray Palmer's Amazing

1400
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:27,279
Pulp Journey by Fred Natus was particularly helpful.

1401
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:28,640
Speaker 1: A few points that.

1402
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:30,319
Speaker 2: We may not have made in this interview but are

1403
01:18:30,319 --> 01:18:34,319
worth mentioning because they give some insight into Palmer's views. First,

1404
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:37,800
Raymond A. Palmer used his initials as a nickname. People

1405
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:40,520
called him Rap. When he had a son, he named

1406
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:44,399
him Raymond B. Palmer. It's difficult to get a feel

1407
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:47,520
for how seriously Rap approached all this stuff. He definitely

1408
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:51,039
played with reality far more than just in the Shaver mysteries.

1409
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:54,760
After a childhood injury, he had spent years in forced

1410
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:59,159
traction and reduced mobility around curing his spinal damage. Reading

1411
01:18:59,279 --> 01:19:01,479
was his escape, and he was a voracious reader and

1412
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,920
highly imaginative. He never had a college education, and it

1413
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:08,399
seems he resented the kind of language common to scientif fiction,

1414
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:11,760
later sci fi, and the technical jargon. Comment to his

1415
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:15,159
competitor magazine, Astounding, which was edited by John W. Campbell,

1416
01:19:16,279 --> 01:19:20,960
Palmer had a mischievous, prankish nature. He frequently used pseudonyms

1417
01:19:21,199 --> 01:19:24,720
to pin his columns and stories, and then would proceed

1418
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,720
to berate in the editorial page this fictional author.

1419
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:29,680
Speaker 1: Who was himself.

1420
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 2: His work with Shaver led to a blurring of the

1421
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:36,159
lines between fantasy and the cult. Madame Blavatsky had done

1422
01:19:36,199 --> 01:19:38,880
something similar when she claimed that Bulwer Lytton's The Coming

1423
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:41,680
Race book was actually based on real history, but Shaver

1424
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:46,319
really mainstreamed it to the American pulp magazine public. When

1425
01:19:46,319 --> 01:19:49,560
Palmer promoted Kenneth Arnold in nineteen forty seven, he had

1426
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:54,039
set himself on a clear course to weirdology. We talked

1427
01:19:54,039 --> 01:19:56,279
about this a bit in the interview, but later in

1428
01:19:56,319 --> 01:20:00,399
life Palmer promoted some writers who were clearly antisemitic, while

1429
01:20:00,439 --> 01:20:04,079
he vigorously denied that he himself held such views. Promoting

1430
01:20:04,119 --> 01:20:06,399
the writing of Nazi sympathizers this is a poor way

1431
01:20:06,439 --> 01:20:10,880
to desistance himself from such accusations. We've already covered the

1432
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:14,359
Nazis' obsessive interest in the occult in a previous episode,

1433
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:16,319
but what I find troubling is the way that it's

1434
01:20:16,359 --> 01:20:19,840
become twisted by a variety of parties, including Nazi sympathizers,

1435
01:20:20,079 --> 01:20:24,880
that the Nazis actually had real occult powers. These allegedly

1436
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:28,720
included magical powers, connections to the hollow earth flying saucers

1437
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:32,600
and other occult energy sources. This glorification of Nazi power

1438
01:20:33,159 --> 01:20:36,079
often is threaded together with Holocaust denial, and I find

1439
01:20:36,079 --> 01:20:40,079
that abhorrent. There's a very thin line between using fictional

1440
01:20:40,199 --> 01:20:44,159
versions of Nazi occult fascination to that of celebrating Nazis

1441
01:20:44,159 --> 01:20:47,520
as misunderstood victims. I still find it hard to believe

1442
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:50,439
we have to see modern neo Nazis being celebrated and

1443
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:54,960
publicly defended by anybody. I don't like mentioning politics on

1444
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:57,479
the show, and I know some listeners have been annoyed

1445
01:20:57,479 --> 01:20:59,760
that we've talked about politics at all, and I get that.

1446
01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:03,159
But if people are confused about whether the Nazis or

1447
01:21:03,199 --> 01:21:08,159
the bad guys, something has gone horribly wrong. Not sees

1448
01:21:08,239 --> 01:21:11,399
are bad. If you feel a need to defend the Nazis,

1449
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:13,680
please go read some real history books or talk with

1450
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:17,319
actual Holocaust survivors. As much as I hate politics, I

1451
01:21:17,399 --> 01:21:19,199
hate more the normalization of.

1452
01:21:19,199 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 1: Racism based on junk science.

1453
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:25,479
Speaker 2: I think Jerry and Jeb do a good job of

1454
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:28,239
contextualizing the role of the Shaver mystery has had in putting

1455
01:21:28,279 --> 01:21:29,399
us in the world we're in now.

1456
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:31,680
Speaker 1: It's a frequently ignored.

1457
01:21:31,279 --> 01:21:34,199
Speaker 2: Foundational text that builds to a time when ancient aliens

1458
01:21:34,199 --> 01:21:36,520
and hollow Earth theories are threaded through the foundations of

1459
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:39,479
modern pop culture as deeply as the tunnels of the

1460
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:43,079
Darros are in Shaver's conception of the Earth. Don't believe me.

1461
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:46,680
See how you feel after this part two of the interview. Oh,

1462
01:21:47,239 --> 01:21:50,399
one more thing. I know, the flat Earth gets lots

1463
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:53,239
of press and is shockingly accepted by a lot of

1464
01:21:53,239 --> 01:21:57,520
the misinformed, Gulbible and anti establishment types of in our population.

1465
01:21:58,119 --> 01:22:01,000
But the hollow Earth is all over the place. It

1466
01:22:01,039 --> 01:22:04,239
even shows up in the latest Godzilla movie. It's in manga,

1467
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:07,439
it's in anime, it's in comics, it's in horror films,

1468
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:10,399
it's in fantasy films. I mean, where would the D

1469
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:13,039
and D world be without the underdark and those extensive

1470
01:22:13,079 --> 01:22:15,560
caverns and dungeons? And where do you think those ideas

1471
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:19,199
came from. Also, we talk a little bit about a

1472
01:22:19,199 --> 01:22:21,760
famous science fiction writer and fan who was angered by

1473
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:22,640
the Shaver mystery.

1474
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:23,800
Speaker 1: But what we didn't mention.

1475
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:26,000
Speaker 2: In the interview is another writer who read the Shaver

1476
01:22:26,079 --> 01:22:29,039
stories and was also suffering from the same kind of

1477
01:22:29,039 --> 01:22:31,680
psychological effects of an influencing machine.

1478
01:22:32,119 --> 01:22:33,479
Speaker 1: And that's Philip K. Dick.

1479
01:22:34,399 --> 01:22:37,199
Speaker 2: If the things we create are influenced by the things

1480
01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:40,720
we consume, Shaver's influence is going to last a long

1481
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:42,239
long time, even if people.

1482
01:22:42,079 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 1: Don't know his name or work directly.

1483
01:22:44,319 --> 01:22:46,920
Speaker 2: Now, if that's not enough background the info for part

1484
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:48,840
two of this discussion, you can check the show notes,

1485
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:52,159
where there's even more reading. I don't think the world

1486
01:22:52,239 --> 01:22:54,520
is hollow, but this Shaver stuff does seem to go

1487
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:58,439
on forever. Let's find out why this stuff matters and

1488
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:09,880
get on with the Morgell. So we're back.

1489
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1490
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:17,800
Speaker 2: So these stories came out and it created some nineteen Yeah,

1491
01:23:18,119 --> 01:23:20,600
let's talk about how they were received by the science

1492
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:21,520
fiction fandom.

1493
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:23,000
Speaker 5: They hit like crazy.

1494
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:27,840
Speaker 6: I think the magazine's letters returned letters to the editor

1495
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:30,079
went from something like fifty to like twenty five hundred.

1496
01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:34,960
I mean, it basically became like the no Sleep Reddit thread,

1497
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:40,000
where everybody else suddenly had a share in these experiences,

1498
01:23:40,039 --> 01:23:42,600
and they immediately began to build the exact same kind

1499
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:45,119
of mythology you would find on Reddit or four chan.

1500
01:23:45,319 --> 01:23:46,319
Speaker 5: Now, so one of the.

1501
01:23:46,239 --> 01:23:49,560
Speaker 3: Things the listener needs to understand here is that this

1502
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:52,159
was not just an amazing stories thing. This had existed

1503
01:23:52,199 --> 01:23:56,680
with weird tales, where people would write letters in and

1504
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:00,359
they would communicate, and at some point they I already

1505
01:24:00,399 --> 01:24:04,960
printing the address of the letter writer so that they

1506
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:07,560
would start writing each other. This became the network that

1507
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:10,279
becomes fandom. I mean, when we talk about the Internet

1508
01:24:10,279 --> 01:24:12,960
existing on paper, this is the equivalent of Oh, I

1509
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,039
could I could send a direct message to this person,

1510
01:24:15,079 --> 01:24:17,880
I could send them an email or something. I could

1511
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:21,640
comment on their comment and take it out. And so

1512
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:26,039
fanzines would emerge and communities would emerge. Now, but as

1513
01:24:26,199 --> 01:24:27,520
as you all were.

1514
01:24:27,399 --> 01:24:32,840
Speaker 6: Saying, the numbers here exploded, and I think, and I

1515
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:35,399
suspect this was what Palmer was at least somewhat trying

1516
01:24:35,399 --> 01:24:35,720
to do.

1517
01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:38,079
Speaker 3: I don't think it was like all of a sudden,

1518
01:24:38,119 --> 01:24:41,079
There were a ton of sci fi fans who are

1519
01:24:41,079 --> 01:24:44,000
like I like ray guns, but also the DROs, the

1520
01:24:44,039 --> 01:24:46,359
fact that it was the Muria. I don't think that

1521
01:24:46,359 --> 01:24:49,000
that name was chosen by any accident, the fact that

1522
01:24:49,039 --> 01:24:53,439
it's basically warmed over theosophy. I think, all of a sudden,

1523
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:56,159
you know, it's like, you know, you make a mistake

1524
01:24:56,199 --> 01:24:58,680
in the in the keyword you use of the hashtag

1525
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:00,760
using Twitter, and all of a sud you're like, wait,

1526
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:03,119
why am I surrounded by hollow Earth people? What the

1527
01:25:03,119 --> 01:25:05,399
hell has happened? Yeah? I think that's kind of what

1528
01:25:05,479 --> 01:25:08,680
he was doing, was basically using this network but trying

1529
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:12,000
to tie it into another community that then glommed onto it.

1530
01:25:12,159 --> 01:25:15,640
Speaker 2: But he also received pushback from some sci fi people

1531
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:21,399
who thought that this was disingenuous, that it was exploitative,

1532
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:26,520
and that it was contrary to the science focus that

1533
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:30,960
had been the hallmark of science fiction before before.

1534
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:35,199
Speaker 3: And science fiction is beginning to emerge as something quasi legitimate.

1535
01:25:35,239 --> 01:25:38,239
It's not just ray guns and you know, big eyed monsters.

1536
01:25:38,279 --> 01:25:41,439
You're starting to get what becomes the golden era of

1537
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:44,239
science fiction. It's about to hit. And he's like, also,

1538
01:25:44,279 --> 01:25:47,199
by the way, Victorian occultist Tripe.

1539
01:25:47,239 --> 01:25:50,560
Speaker 2: I think that that sort of fan pushback.

1540
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:52,119
Speaker 1: Was legit.

1541
01:25:52,199 --> 01:25:53,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, I mean it was an interesting

1542
01:25:54,119 --> 01:25:58,079
and legitimate argument, right when I think about these sort

1543
01:25:58,119 --> 01:26:02,520
of discussions. This came known as the Shaver Mystery.

1544
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:05,720
Speaker 6: Palmer calls it the Shaver Mysteries. That's the name, and

1545
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:07,079
he sort of brands it under.

1546
01:26:07,239 --> 01:26:09,359
Speaker 2: He's being coy. Uh.

1547
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:11,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an understatement.

1548
01:26:11,159 --> 01:26:15,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's he's basically trying to have his cake and

1549
01:26:15,279 --> 01:26:18,920
eat it too. He's saying, you know, we're not commenting

1550
01:26:19,199 --> 01:26:21,560
on whether this is true, but it's claimed to be

1551
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:22,560
true by Shaver.

1552
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:25,520
Speaker 3: That's a and it clearly resonates with everything we know,

1553
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:26,640
like stuff like that.

1554
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:30,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, he can't just leave it alone. He's

1555
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:32,039
got to say that it seems to like be based

1556
01:26:32,079 --> 01:26:35,680
on the underpinnings of you know a lot of lore, right, yeah.

1557
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:38,600
Speaker 3: And and so these people start writing in and they're like,

1558
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:41,039
you know, I went into the caverns and my friend

1559
01:26:41,159 --> 01:26:43,399
was vaporized, and I have a hole the size of.

1560
01:26:43,359 --> 01:26:45,039
Speaker 5: A coin in my arm my arm.

1561
01:26:45,239 --> 01:26:47,560
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and you know, because they ran into the

1562
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:50,159
DeRos too. And and so these people start writing in,

1563
01:26:50,359 --> 01:26:53,840
as Jerry was saying, like like no sleep like creepy pasta,

1564
01:26:54,279 --> 01:26:58,279
Like what's what's that one with the institute like sc something?

1565
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:02,159
Oh yeah, yeah, where it's just like these stories. And

1566
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:05,840
I don't think everyone writing in was trying to tell

1567
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:07,600
a real story. I think some of them were like

1568
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:10,720
this is fun, this is fun. I'm gonna tell a

1569
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:11,439
creepy story.

1570
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:13,159
Speaker 5: I have a confession to make.

1571
01:27:13,239 --> 01:27:17,319
Speaker 6: If you go back and listen to the Mel's Whole

1572
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:22,479
episodes of the Art Mel Show. Oh boy, go ahead,

1573
01:27:23,079 --> 01:27:25,680
I am a trucker in one of those episodes who

1574
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:29,880
tells a ripping yarn about a hole into the center

1575
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:33,159
of the earth. Total book. I was a college kid

1576
01:27:33,239 --> 01:27:37,359
board at work and had not, you know, had the

1577
01:27:38,319 --> 01:27:40,239
level of adult adulting that I have.

1578
01:27:40,359 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 5: Now.

1579
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 6: People lie, People lie a lot, you know.

1580
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:47,119
Speaker 3: I mean, you're not the guy who you know, told

1581
01:27:47,159 --> 01:27:50,039
them the story of Half Life, which is you know, famous.

1582
01:27:51,119 --> 01:27:54,760
But yeah, no, exactly, and I would expect a lot

1583
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:57,640
of that. But then, so I think one of the

1584
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:00,960
things that's interesting here, we're going to get into the

1585
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:06,199
idea that Palmer invents the flying saucers. We'll get to that,

1586
01:28:06,319 --> 01:28:10,199
but skip forward even a couple of years, and certainly

1587
01:28:10,239 --> 01:28:13,520
by nineteen fifty you have a number of people, many

1588
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:16,479
of them tied into the Shaver network, who had deep,

1589
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:22,640
long histories in this occult lodge, this theosophical group, this

1590
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:27,279
ancient teaching that as soon as you get rockets, and

1591
01:28:27,319 --> 01:28:31,520
then especially when you get flying saucers, they're like, oh,

1592
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:35,000
I used to get stuff from the ascended masters. I mean,

1593
01:28:35,159 --> 01:28:37,359
I mean they're from Venus actually, I mean they're from Venus.

1594
01:28:38,359 --> 01:28:41,159
And this becomes the Contact Team movement, one of whom

1595
01:28:41,159 --> 01:28:46,640
Maurice doriol Is directly plagiarizes people from the Lovecraft circle,

1596
01:28:47,159 --> 01:28:50,159
like Lovecraft himself and Roberty Howard and Frank Bell Knap

1597
01:28:50,199 --> 01:28:57,199
Long and is involved in the Shaver community of letter

1598
01:28:57,239 --> 01:29:00,640
writers and whatnot. That emerges, and the the idea of

1599
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:03,039
like the Reptilians basically comes in right through there.

1600
01:29:03,159 --> 01:29:05,399
Speaker 6: Yes, I can't remember off the top of my head

1601
01:29:05,439 --> 01:29:10,079
who introduces Lovecraft to theosophy, but he writes one of

1602
01:29:10,119 --> 01:29:12,199
his letters, He's like, gimme, He literally says, give me

1603
01:29:12,199 --> 01:29:12,960
more of that stuff.

1604
01:29:13,359 --> 01:29:16,319
Speaker 3: So he from what I think, there's two introductions. One

1605
01:29:16,399 --> 01:29:18,880
he gets the ideas from stuff he reads, so he

1606
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:22,840
reads is always I always forget the name of Scott Elliott.

1607
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:27,279
Speaker 2: But the Atlantis, the book that Jeb's trying to remember

1608
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:31,039
is the Story of Atlantis by William Scott Elliott, which

1609
01:29:31,159 --> 01:29:34,720
was later expanded to the Story of Atlantis and the

1610
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:37,279
Lost Limoria. I put a link to that in the

1611
01:29:37,319 --> 01:29:37,920
show notes.

1612
01:29:38,279 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 3: But right before he writes Cthulhu, he reads a book

1613
01:29:43,079 --> 01:29:47,199
on the idea of Atlantis and Lost Continence. And again

1614
01:29:47,239 --> 01:29:50,840
I'm blanking on the name. Later in New Orleans, E.

1615
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:56,000
Hoffman Price introduces him to theosophy like for real. And

1616
01:29:56,439 --> 01:29:59,439
but that's well after he's written most of his stories.

1617
01:29:59,399 --> 01:30:03,520
Speaker 6: Right, So it's a reification machine really at that point

1618
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,479
where the Lovecraft didn't believe any of this stuff. But

1619
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:08,920
it's authors who are sort of going, oh, I love

1620
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:12,279
this mythology and I'm going to adopt it. Believers read

1621
01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:15,359
a story by someone by Lovecraft like Lovecraft and goes,

1622
01:30:15,399 --> 01:30:19,319
oh God, there's my mythology. They must also be channeling

1623
01:30:19,359 --> 01:30:20,119
the ancient mask.

1624
01:30:20,279 --> 01:30:26,159
Speaker 2: Yes, well, and Damski was straight up trained in theosophy,

1625
01:30:26,239 --> 01:30:27,960
wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, yes, And.

1626
01:30:28,119 --> 01:30:31,680
Speaker 3: And doriall the guy who introduces reptilians to UFO or

1627
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:36,079
through Shaver. He ran a lodge in Colorado, he ran

1628
01:30:36,199 --> 01:30:39,039
he ran a magical lodge. Now we mentioned love We

1629
01:30:39,079 --> 01:30:41,039
just mentioned Lovecraft right now. I want to make a

1630
01:30:41,119 --> 01:30:43,880
huge distinction here, And I did this on the Twitter

1631
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:49,159
thing last night. During his lifetime, Lovecraft, mind you, had

1632
01:30:49,199 --> 01:30:51,600
a lot of faults. We've talked about him before, h

1633
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:55,359
But he mined the theosophical stuff, he mined all this stuff,

1634
01:30:55,720 --> 01:31:00,079
turned it into fiction and did have ramifications later, but

1635
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:03,600
when he started to get letters of like, tell me

1636
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:05,800
more about the reality of Cthulhu. Tell me where I

1637
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:07,960
can find a copy of the Ecronomicon. Where are you

1638
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:11,640
getting this? Where you get He's like, it's fiction, it's fake,

1639
01:31:12,079 --> 01:31:16,560
it's not real about it. Yeah, stuff that he really believed,

1640
01:31:16,720 --> 01:31:19,119
like for example, Margaret Murray and the Witch cult he

1641
01:31:19,159 --> 01:31:20,920
would go on and on about. But if he didn't

1642
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:23,479
believe it, he's like, look, and not only that, I

1643
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:25,920
don't want He literally said, I don't want people like

1644
01:31:26,119 --> 01:31:28,000
looking for this stuff. I'm happy to tell them that

1645
01:31:28,039 --> 01:31:30,880
ecronomicons not real. It's fun to write about, but it's

1646
01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:34,319
not real. Palmer is literally the opposite.

1647
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:39,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's taking stuff that's not real and wholesale re

1648
01:31:39,279 --> 01:31:41,920
regurgitating it as as this true.

1649
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:46,840
Speaker 2: Story that's really good. I mean, that's a really good comparison. Yeah.

1650
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:49,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he has a much faster impact. And I

1651
01:31:49,279 --> 01:31:53,560
think that's important to note. Lovecraft stuff does eventually inspire

1652
01:31:54,119 --> 01:31:56,479
a lot of ancient aliens. I think ancient aliens would

1653
01:31:56,520 --> 01:32:00,119
have happened without him, But he's a huge influence on it.

1654
01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:05,800
Palmer immediately, so these stories, the Shaver stories, they blow up.

1655
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:08,560
But yeah, sci fi fans aren't happy. He quickly gets

1656
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,800
kicked out of Amazing Stories, but he had already kind

1657
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:16,720
of started to build a escape plan and found several

1658
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:21,479
new magazines, including Fate Magazine, which becomes a major standard

1659
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:26,039
of the paranormal world. In nineteen forty seven, when Flying

1660
01:32:26,119 --> 01:32:30,199
Saucers emerge hed, they get instantly locked into the Shaver

1661
01:32:30,279 --> 01:32:32,720
mystery because he'd been talking about, you know, flying from

1662
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:35,520
the caverns of Mountain Shaft and all that, and he

1663
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:41,239
hires Kenneth Arnold, the guy from the first Flying Saucers sighting,

1664
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:44,680
to go investigate the Moury Island UFO hoax.

1665
01:32:45,439 --> 01:32:49,279
Speaker 6: Yes, indeed, Moury Island is one of those oh my god,

1666
01:32:49,399 --> 01:32:50,960
it shows up in everything. I don't know, if you

1667
01:32:50,960 --> 01:32:54,279
guys read the background literature for the latest Twin Peaks,

1668
01:32:54,880 --> 01:32:58,760
Moury Island is like one of the major subplots in there.

1669
01:32:58,960 --> 01:33:02,800
And then in the podcast Tannis, they use Marie Islands

1670
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:05,039
as a plot point. So it's one of these things

1671
01:33:05,079 --> 01:33:09,079
that is alive and well. And I expect, you know,

1672
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:14,079
a Hellier type documentary about Mario any minute. Did Josh

1673
01:33:14,199 --> 01:33:15,000
Gates just deal?

1674
01:33:15,199 --> 01:33:17,720
Speaker 5: No, he's he's trying to go legit one of the

1675
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:18,399
big shows that.

1676
01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:20,479
Speaker 3: They did it on, well, they did it on UFO

1677
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:21,399
Hunters years ago.

1678
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:23,520
Speaker 6: Es they did, but there was one that just ran

1679
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:26,960
like a couple of weeks ago where they were looking

1680
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:30,399
at some of the metal from Morio at I it

1681
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:30,760
might have.

1682
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:33,159
Speaker 5: Been Josh Gates, I can't remember. They all read it's

1683
01:33:33,199 --> 01:33:33,720
all just one.

1684
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 3: So I have heard, I'm hesitant to say this this way,

1685
01:33:41,319 --> 01:33:45,479
I have heard responsible UFOE people that I kind of

1686
01:33:45,560 --> 01:33:48,399
do actually like as historians if you fology, et cetera,

1687
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:52,520
et cetera, who are really fascinated by moriy Island. And

1688
01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:55,960
I'm not like, it's pretty obviously a hoax.

1689
01:33:56,199 --> 01:34:02,279
Speaker 2: It was a hoax. While uh Keith Arnold was still

1690
01:34:02,319 --> 01:34:04,760
on the ground, he knew it was. Yeah, I mean,

1691
01:34:04,880 --> 01:34:07,039
it was a host. But the fact that it's being

1692
01:34:07,079 --> 01:34:11,880
regurgitated and uh and heated up and swallowed as a

1693
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:14,880
are presented as a scrumptious meal is disturbing to me

1694
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:19,119
because it's a although like Groswell, it's grown a little bit,

1695
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:21,560
not even close to as much as Roswell's grown, but

1696
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:22,159
it's grown.

1697
01:34:22,199 --> 01:34:25,279
Speaker 3: It's comparable to like Aztech, the az Tech UFO story.

1698
01:34:25,479 --> 01:34:26,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it.

1699
01:34:28,039 --> 01:34:28,279
Speaker 6: Has.

1700
01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's let's talk about it. I mean, I don't

1701
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:34,000
want to go off into a huge tangent about Marie Island,

1702
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:38,920
but basically, people claim that they saw UFO and it

1703
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:42,159
dropped slag or metal parts on their metal.

1704
01:34:41,960 --> 01:34:44,399
Speaker 5: Burning burning silver metal slags, and.

1705
01:34:44,319 --> 01:34:48,239
Speaker 2: It killed killed their dog. And uh, Palmer got very

1706
01:34:48,239 --> 01:34:50,760
excited because he wanted to cover it for his new magazine.

1707
01:34:51,039 --> 01:34:54,039
Speaker 3: So he hires Kenneth Arnold, the pilot right and and

1708
01:34:54,039 --> 01:34:59,600
and fire extinguisheder salesman, to to go out and investigate it. Yeah. Now,

1709
01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:00,920
Paul literally like a movie.

1710
01:35:01,119 --> 01:35:05,640
Speaker 2: I mean, Kedith Arnold is not a UFO investigator, he's

1711
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:09,520
not in any investigator, and he it's he realizes he's

1712
01:35:09,560 --> 01:35:11,079
kind of in over his head really quickly.

1713
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:12,159
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1714
01:35:12,239 --> 01:35:16,800
Speaker 2: The people there are, the people who are making the

1715
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:27,399
claims are cagey, to say the least, they're inconsistent. And ultimately, yeah,

1716
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:30,000
the slag turns out to be from a nearby foundry

1717
01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:30,960
if I remember correctly.

1718
01:35:31,279 --> 01:35:34,039
Speaker 3: Well, that's that gets a little conflict. And then they

1719
01:35:34,119 --> 01:35:36,039
put it on a plane to take it away because

1720
01:35:36,039 --> 01:35:38,720
the air Force is actually investigating, and the plane crashes

1721
01:35:39,239 --> 01:35:42,079
kills two air Force officers, and I think the two

1722
01:35:42,159 --> 01:35:48,720
reasons this is continuing to reverberate through wu Landia uh

1723
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:54,000
is one, the plane crash adds this element and I'm like, wow,

1724
01:35:54,039 --> 01:35:58,920
that's not awful back to Salem. But two, because Fred

1725
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:04,840
Christman shows up in the friggin Jim Garrison JFK investigation.

1726
01:36:05,199 --> 01:36:06,920
Oh yeah, one of the guys involved in this.

1727
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:10,159
Speaker 6: Well there's two. There's two additional legacies. It shows up

1728
01:36:10,199 --> 01:36:12,920
in Gray Barker's book. I think it came out in

1729
01:36:13,159 --> 01:36:16,800
fifty six All Men in Black Business, much about the

1730
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:21,439
Flying Sauces and Diestic twelve documents reference it after that.

1731
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:27,239
Speaker 5: So it's it's got a story that keeps rolling.

1732
01:36:27,359 --> 01:36:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it becomes an anchor point that you can hand,

1733
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:34,199
you can hang stuff on it, basically, but it's itself.

1734
01:36:34,359 --> 01:36:35,680
There's not much there there.

1735
01:36:36,239 --> 01:36:39,560
Speaker 3: Well, let me let me ask you all. So Arnold

1736
01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:42,760
when he goes out there, says, oh my god, somebody

1737
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:45,039
like phoned ahead and got me a hotel room. And

1738
01:36:45,079 --> 01:36:47,279
I don't know who did it. I want to like,

1739
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:51,560
I want to ask you, is it a Arnold is

1740
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:53,640
just making that shit up? Or b is it Ray Palmer?

1741
01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:54,680
Speaker 2: I assumed Palmer.

1742
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:56,199
Speaker 5: It's Ray Palmer.

1743
01:36:56,279 --> 01:37:02,119
Speaker 3: It's got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just yeah.

1744
01:37:02,239 --> 01:37:05,680
Speaker 6: I mean, Palmer was trying to build this UFO mythology

1745
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:07,680
once he got to Fate, and Fate is the place

1746
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:09,319
where it all happens, right, and.

1747
01:37:09,359 --> 01:37:13,760
Speaker 2: Fate is because so he goes to found Fate. He's

1748
01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:18,039
partnered with is a Jern Clark, Well, Jermee Clark's one

1749
01:37:18,079 --> 01:37:21,840
of the editors. Later, yes, later it's pick.

1750
01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:26,880
Speaker 3: Well, while you're trying to think of that, it was

1751
01:37:27,079 --> 01:37:28,239
just the Fullers, yeah.

1752
01:37:28,079 --> 01:37:30,439
Speaker 2: Well the family. Yeah, but he was to get away

1753
01:37:30,439 --> 01:37:34,520
from Ziff Davis because they're ever so slightly limiting his

1754
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:35,520
editorial control.

1755
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:38,399
Speaker 3: Right, So let's let's do a very quick chronology here.

1756
01:37:38,520 --> 01:37:42,920
Nineteen forty five forty six Shaver mysteries explode, but they're

1757
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:48,319
causing controversy, and Palmer's like, I need to do something else,

1758
01:37:49,039 --> 01:37:51,199
and he wants to go paranormal. It's very very clear.

1759
01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:57,319
Forty seven flying Saucers. He hires Arnold to go investigate

1760
01:37:57,319 --> 01:38:02,399
More Island. Now here's the thing. Nineteen forty seven Flying

1761
01:38:02,479 --> 01:38:06,039
Saucers June twenty fourth, and then a whole bunch of

1762
01:38:06,079 --> 01:38:11,199
sightings over about three weeks, and it basically ends with

1763
01:38:11,359 --> 01:38:17,039
the flying disc at Roswell on July eighth, nineteen forty seven,

1764
01:38:17,159 --> 01:38:20,560
and after that there aren't really a lot of Flying

1765
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:26,920
Saucer things. Now in the halls of power inside the Pentagon,

1766
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:30,760
there is actual interest with Project Sign and then later

1767
01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:35,239
Project Grudge, Project Saucer all that, but out in the public.

1768
01:38:35,439 --> 01:38:38,640
While it's a fun, weird thing, they don't generally associated

1769
01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:44,119
with aliens or martians. It's they're probably weapons, and it

1770
01:38:44,279 --> 01:38:46,640
kind of goes away, and it only sort of re

1771
01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:51,239
emerges in nineteen fifty and fifty one when it begins

1772
01:38:51,279 --> 01:38:53,479
to be what we think of as UFOs today, that

1773
01:38:53,479 --> 01:38:56,560
they're aliens, that they're you know, all the stuff that

1774
01:38:56,600 --> 01:39:00,840
we now think of those three years is when Palmer

1775
01:39:01,039 --> 01:39:02,000
is building it.

1776
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:07,640
Speaker 6: I mean, don't forget. Do not forget that. The first episode,

1777
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:10,600
issue volume one, number one, and I've got it right

1778
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:16,640
over here of Fate Magazine was headlined with Kenneth Arnold's

1779
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:19,920
The Truth about the Flying Saucer. They used that story

1780
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:24,560
of him flying in his Sessna seeing the discs out

1781
01:39:24,560 --> 01:39:27,960
across the sky as the foundation for this new business opportunity.

1782
01:39:28,039 --> 01:39:31,359
Speaker 3: And it is a business, yes, When so that we

1783
01:39:31,399 --> 01:39:34,359
didn't call Palmer the man who invents flying saucers that

1784
01:39:34,399 --> 01:39:38,199
actually comes from John Keel. Yes, yep, and I think

1785
01:39:38,239 --> 01:39:40,720
he's largely right.

1786
01:39:42,760 --> 01:39:46,600
Speaker 2: I don't disagree at all. The more I read around this,

1787
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:52,760
the more I became convinced that we wouldn't have flying

1788
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:56,680
saucers and that whole lore the way we do today.

1789
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:59,359
If it hadn't been for Palmer, it would be very different.

1790
01:39:59,399 --> 01:40:01,560
It'd be very differ. Indeed, it'd be very different, and

1791
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:04,640
Fate I became like a really safe place to talk

1792
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:06,000
about any kind of weird.

1793
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:08,640
Speaker 3: Well not just any kind of weird shit. I'd like

1794
01:40:08,720 --> 01:40:11,680
to point out when he creates his basic thesis for

1795
01:40:11,720 --> 01:40:13,560
what Fate is, it is like, yeah, we're going to

1796
01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:18,840
investigate like I don't know, ancient mysteries, and I'm like mother,

1797
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:23,520
It's just like, can I get away from it? You know,

1798
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:26,680
spooky archaeology is always at the base. It is always

1799
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:29,399
at the base because it's it's the myth that props

1800
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:31,119
all the rest of it up. But I digress.

1801
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:36,000
Speaker 6: I want to point out one thing about UFOs. You know,

1802
01:40:36,279 --> 01:40:39,960
the people in the government aren't dumb, and people in

1803
01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:43,560
the government read Trashy pull Up Magazine two yep, and

1804
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:48,600
Roswell is buy ranches in Utah. They buy ranches in Utah,

1805
01:40:49,199 --> 01:40:52,960
they collect twenty plus thousand occult books and sit in

1806
01:40:53,039 --> 01:40:57,079
Victorian libraries doing podcasts in the middle of the night too.

1807
01:40:57,520 --> 01:41:01,079
The thing to realize is that when Oswell happened, it

1808
01:41:01,119 --> 01:41:03,640
was the government that said it was a UFO, and

1809
01:41:03,680 --> 01:41:08,119
that becomes a kind of a kind of beat throughout

1810
01:41:08,159 --> 01:41:11,399
the Cold War. And I would offer up the hypothesis

1811
01:41:11,399 --> 01:41:16,960
that if a government counterintelligence person would much rather have

1812
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:19,920
Joe Public looking up at the sky and seeing something

1813
01:41:19,960 --> 01:41:23,880
weird and saying, well, what's a man from Mars, then

1814
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:28,600
that's an exotic spacecraft or an exotic piece of aeronautics.

1815
01:41:29,159 --> 01:41:33,920
So there's there's a there's there's a lot of reification

1816
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:36,399
that goes on in the fifties, sixties, and seventies, where

1817
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:39,359
where the UFO movement suits a.

1818
01:41:39,359 --> 01:41:42,159
Speaker 5: Lot of diverse interests in a very convenient way.

1819
01:41:42,319 --> 01:41:45,199
Speaker 3: I I don't know how much it does earlier earlier,

1820
01:41:45,239 --> 01:41:47,680
my own personal take. Earlier, I think a lot of

1821
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:51,880
it is accidental. It's I think I think Roswell's entirely accidental.

1822
01:41:52,239 --> 01:41:54,479
But by the eighties it's not. By the eighties, they

1823
01:41:54,479 --> 01:41:55,439
are clearly doing.

1824
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:58,319
Speaker 6: But Roswell just it works so well.

1825
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:06,039
Speaker 2: So yeah, oh, we should probably take a moment here

1826
01:42:06,039 --> 01:42:11,840
and say rest in peace Stanton Freeman. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1827
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:12,399
all right.

1828
01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:16,279
Speaker 3: Just that curiosity. Did either of you meet him ever?

1829
01:42:16,520 --> 01:42:19,920
I've met him, Yeah, yeah. I only met him once.

1830
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:21,760
I saw him give a talk once, and then I

1831
01:42:21,840 --> 01:42:25,640
met him in an Applebee's because he was the only

1832
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:29,399
place near the hotel out near the airport in Albuquerque,

1833
01:42:29,880 --> 01:42:31,720
and he sat down next to me. When I went

1834
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:34,720
to the UFO festival in Roswell, he sat down next

1835
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:36,520
to me when I was trying to understand this whole thing.

1836
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:39,720
I'm like, well, guys built this myths. Just sat down

1837
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:42,520
and we had this conversation. And that was when I realized.

1838
01:42:43,159 --> 01:42:47,720
Prior to that conversation I thought he was not just

1839
01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:51,600
full of like Charlatan. I thought he was making this

1840
01:42:51,640 --> 01:42:55,159
stuff up. That conversation made it clear to me that

1841
01:42:55,199 --> 01:42:59,560
he wasn't. He actually did believe this stuff. It's just

1842
01:42:59,600 --> 01:43:02,720
that he had given the talks that he gives.

1843
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:05,479
Speaker 2: So many times. Yeah, yeah, that it.

1844
01:43:05,479 --> 01:43:10,800
Speaker 3: Comes across as canned and insincere. Yeah, but no, I

1845
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:13,840
met him once and it was it was actually quite interesting.

1846
01:43:14,039 --> 01:43:18,000
I don't believe he's right about pretty much anything involving Roswell.

1847
01:43:18,079 --> 01:43:19,680
But I digress.

1848
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:22,920
Speaker 2: I don't know Matt Moneymaker, but the times I've interacted

1849
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:27,640
with him, I believe that Matt Moneymaker believes the things

1850
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:30,199
he says. I mean, yes, he's figured out a way

1851
01:43:30,199 --> 01:43:30,960
to make money on it.

1852
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:34,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, he has a very unfortunate last name. Yeah.

1853
01:43:34,039 --> 01:43:35,479
Speaker 1: Well, you know his.

1854
01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:37,479
Speaker 5: Dad's name is Rich Moneymaker, which.

1855
01:43:37,319 --> 01:43:47,720
Speaker 7: Is oh, oh my, oh my god, you know my pick.

1856
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:51,560
Speaker 6: I run into this guy in the government all the time.

1857
01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:57,199
You know, it's an interesting character who who was highly educated,

1858
01:43:57,239 --> 01:44:01,399
often Ivy league educated, you know, xtremely privileged and smart

1859
01:44:01,439 --> 01:44:05,319
person who will plant the flag on something and let

1860
01:44:05,399 --> 01:44:10,239
it destroy their career. And it's such a I don't

1861
01:44:10,279 --> 01:44:13,279
know if because we don't have to do we have

1862
01:44:13,279 --> 01:44:13,560
to be.

1863
01:44:13,560 --> 01:44:15,279
Speaker 5: Right enough to keep getting paid.

1864
01:44:16,199 --> 01:44:18,760
Speaker 6: I think there's a there's not a lot of self

1865
01:44:18,880 --> 01:44:22,000
checking as you as you age. And Friedman always struck

1866
01:44:22,079 --> 01:44:25,000
me as one of these guys who had just he

1867
01:44:25,039 --> 01:44:27,039
had planted a flag on this thing.

1868
01:44:27,359 --> 01:44:28,640
Speaker 5: It was paying his bill.

1869
01:44:28,720 --> 01:44:31,600
Speaker 6: It mean, into enough of a celebrity for him to

1870
01:44:32,239 --> 01:44:34,880
you know, get the ego ego boost out of it

1871
01:44:34,920 --> 01:44:37,239
that he was sort of satisfied with the idea he

1872
01:44:37,359 --> 01:44:40,760
was right about what was happening. But it's a it's

1873
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:44,920
a trait among academics that I mean, it just happens,

1874
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:49,000
like everybody knows that kooky guy who believes in well,

1875
01:44:49,039 --> 01:44:52,520
I mean there's some Jeff mir there's some characters out

1876
01:44:52,520 --> 01:44:54,279
there who have just planted a flag on this thing.

1877
01:44:54,479 --> 01:44:59,560
Broke anyone in conversation, anyone in this conversation.

1878
01:44:59,760 --> 01:45:04,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would say with Friedman, I personally think, uh,

1879
01:45:06,079 --> 01:45:07,600
we should get back to Shaver in a second. But

1880
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:12,800
I personally think that my own belief is that he

1881
01:45:13,079 --> 01:45:17,640
kind of got stuck with MJ twelve. Like I absolutely

1882
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:21,039
think he thought it was an amazing Watergate at the beginning,

1883
01:45:21,079 --> 01:45:25,000
and I think at some point I think cognitive dissonance

1884
01:45:25,039 --> 01:45:25,640
is a hell of a drug.

1885
01:45:26,079 --> 01:45:28,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, it is. And those documents are not authentic, like

1886
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:32,840
I have analyzed them myself. If I know anything, it's

1887
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:36,000
government documents and the history of how they were produced,

1888
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:38,399
and those are not authentic government documents. There there are

1889
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:41,760
too many obvious flaws in them. Yeah, I mean, it's

1890
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:45,760
a very good hoax by somebody who did not know

1891
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:48,880
if I hoaxed the government document from that time period,

1892
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:51,479
you would not be able to to tell that.

1893
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:52,159
Speaker 5: It was a hoax.

1894
01:45:52,199 --> 01:45:54,640
Speaker 6: So this was not someone who was don't don't about

1895
01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:56,399
that stuff, man, don't about that stuff, I.

1896
01:45:56,800 --> 01:46:02,720
Speaker 3: Mike, all right, So so Shaver, So Shaver and Palmer.

1897
01:46:03,239 --> 01:46:06,039
They continue to the Shaver mysteries for like a couple

1898
01:46:06,079 --> 01:46:09,920
of years, and then it basically becomes flying Saucers.

1899
01:46:10,119 --> 01:46:16,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, it morphs into the flying flying souther religion almost, yeah, Saucerianism.

1900
01:46:16,640 --> 01:46:21,399
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And the first wave of contactees sort of

1901
01:46:21,439 --> 01:46:24,840
start to appear basically doing what I would argue Palmer

1902
01:46:24,960 --> 01:46:29,439
was doing, taking decades of the Western occulture tradition or

1903
01:46:29,479 --> 01:46:32,760
a century or more of the Western culture tradition and

1904
01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:37,520
Sci fiing it. Yep. Yeah, So like like Adamski, like

1905
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:38,680
like all the others.

1906
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:43,239
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting distinction though, the the religious approach,

1907
01:46:43,399 --> 01:46:47,239
the spiritual approach, the New Age approach, versus the nuts

1908
01:46:47,279 --> 01:46:50,119
and bolts approach, or like what I would say, the

1909
01:46:50,159 --> 01:46:52,239
sincere inquiry into what are these things and where do

1910
01:46:52,239 --> 01:46:56,840
they come from? Uh, there's there's a pretty big divibe

1911
01:46:56,880 --> 01:47:00,880
between the people who have been given wisdom from these

1912
01:47:00,960 --> 01:47:04,159
craft and from the inhabitants of these craft uh. And

1913
01:47:04,199 --> 01:47:06,239
the people who just see lights in the sky and

1914
01:47:06,279 --> 01:47:11,399
have strange experiences. Uh. And and that that early schism,

1915
01:47:11,720 --> 01:47:13,520
as far as I can tell, it's still out there.

1916
01:47:14,399 --> 01:47:16,760
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't. I don't know if it is anymore.

1917
01:47:17,039 --> 01:47:19,479
I well, I mean, I'm a champion for the puff

1918
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:23,439
do you know that? But it's not like it, you know,

1919
01:47:23,600 --> 01:47:25,720
it's it's not like it is when there's a keyho

1920
01:47:26,039 --> 01:47:29,560
around or nycap or anything like that.

1921
01:47:30,000 --> 01:47:33,359
Speaker 2: Well, what about what did Tom DeLong stuff? What do

1922
01:47:33,399 --> 01:47:34,600
you think their goal is?

1923
01:47:34,840 --> 01:47:37,399
Speaker 3: Tom DeLong is working with the dude with the ranch,

1924
01:47:37,439 --> 01:47:38,960
with Space poultergeists.

1925
01:47:39,239 --> 01:47:43,439
Speaker 6: It's Space Poulter guys and and techno wizardry.

1926
01:47:43,159 --> 01:47:47,359
Speaker 3: And the higher wolves and synchronicity. No, there's no barrier there.

1927
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:50,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, I say, you're saying the

1928
01:47:50,520 --> 01:47:53,720
barrier is just broken down completely, gotcha. It's not not

1929
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:55,800
that one side one or the other they just merged.

1930
01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:59,039
Oh no, I think one side one, Well, who won the.

1931
01:48:01,760 --> 01:48:05,479
Speaker 3: I personally think that the putting theology on the end

1932
01:48:05,479 --> 01:48:11,640
of weird shitology, cryptozoology, uthology, parapsychology is largely a structure

1933
01:48:11,760 --> 01:48:14,960
of the social status of the sciences. In the middle

1934
01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:18,800
of the twentieth century, and as that social status declines,

1935
01:48:19,279 --> 01:48:21,840
so do they. We live in a world. Here's anology

1936
01:48:21,840 --> 01:48:24,439
for you. We live in a world of a new demonology.

1937
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:27,159
But this idea that I'm going to looking for a

1938
01:48:27,239 --> 01:48:31,000
gigantopithecus or a plesiosaur, or I'm trying to understand recurrent

1939
01:48:31,039 --> 01:48:34,680
spontaneous psychokinesis, or I'm looking for people from Zeta reticuli

1940
01:48:35,119 --> 01:48:37,600
makes a lot of sense from basically the end of

1941
01:48:37,640 --> 01:48:41,119
World War Two and maybe a little earlier and about

1942
01:48:41,359 --> 01:48:44,720
the nineteen seventies. And that's when it begins to break down.

1943
01:48:46,279 --> 01:48:49,039
Is in that period, and I think at this point

1944
01:48:49,439 --> 01:48:50,039
it's gone.

1945
01:48:50,680 --> 01:48:52,840
Speaker 6: Well. I will admit that I have two things in

1946
01:48:52,920 --> 01:48:55,760
common with Kenny Fetter, well three things if you count

1947
01:48:55,760 --> 01:48:59,399
the profanity. A degree in archaeology. And I first learned

1948
01:48:59,439 --> 01:49:03,640
about Eric von Danakin in a barber shop. I was

1949
01:49:04,439 --> 01:49:07,560
Carl's barber shop in Louisville, Texas, as a high school

1950
01:49:07,720 --> 01:49:10,880
junior senior. And in the pile of books you could

1951
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:15,000
read that smelled like nicotine and you know barber oil

1952
01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:18,119
was a copy of von Dannakin's first book, and I

1953
01:49:18,159 --> 01:49:21,720
started reading it and to my sixteen or seventeen year

1954
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:25,000
old mind, you know, steeped in the religion of Indiana Jones,

1955
01:49:25,520 --> 01:49:29,439
it made a five sense, But after I finished about

1956
01:49:29,479 --> 01:49:34,399
my second or third class as an undergraduate in formal archaeology,

1957
01:49:34,439 --> 01:49:37,119
it didn't make a lick of sense. But I can

1958
01:49:37,159 --> 01:49:40,079
totally understand how people who are exposed to that stuff,

1959
01:49:40,199 --> 01:49:44,760
well crafted and well written, could totally turn Jesus into

1960
01:49:45,039 --> 01:49:48,239
first and ascended Master and then second into an alien.

1961
01:49:48,600 --> 01:49:53,319
Like it makes perfect it's logistically logically convenient.

1962
01:49:53,279 --> 01:49:56,000
Speaker 3: To preserve your beliefs, like I think, it's actually harder

1963
01:49:56,520 --> 01:50:00,479
to keep it as nuts and bolts or pelts and paws. Yes,

1964
01:50:01,399 --> 01:50:05,920
like I have. I have very hard times with a

1965
01:50:06,079 --> 01:50:10,079
gigantopnthists Bigfoot. I actually have less problems with demon portal

1966
01:50:10,079 --> 01:50:12,720
Bigfoot because I don't know how Demon's great work, but

1967
01:50:12,760 --> 01:50:14,640
I know how Gigantopithecus would probably work.

1968
01:50:14,680 --> 01:50:17,600
Speaker 6: Actually, I wrote a I wrote a blog about that

1969
01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:20,760
for a friend of mine's paranormal cy called Quantum Bigfoot,

1970
01:50:20,760 --> 01:50:23,359
where I made that same case where I was like, look, guys,

1971
01:50:24,039 --> 01:50:31,439
a dimension time hopping Bigfoot is more believable than Bigfoot, Like, yeah,

1972
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:34,279
there's nothing in the fossil record. There's no way this like,

1973
01:50:34,319 --> 01:50:34,880
if you want.

1974
01:50:34,760 --> 01:50:37,159
Speaker 5: To believe in Bigfoot, believe in Bigfoot.

1975
01:50:36,680 --> 01:50:39,960
Speaker 6: As a time hopping alien, not as any kind of

1976
01:50:40,000 --> 01:50:43,880
a North American primate, because there's nothing about Bigfoot that

1977
01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:45,119
makes any food sense.

1978
01:50:45,159 --> 01:50:47,960
Speaker 2: So what you're saying is that the Bionic Bigfoot was

1979
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:48,760
a documentary.

1980
01:50:49,399 --> 01:50:51,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean that's a lot closer now. And so

1981
01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:52,640
here's I think.

1982
01:50:52,479 --> 01:50:56,520
Speaker 3: Where this ties into the into the the Shaver stuff

1983
01:50:57,199 --> 01:51:01,399
is that you have sort of flying saucers get taken

1984
01:51:01,439 --> 01:51:04,439
over and it explodes in an era of big science.

1985
01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:09,000
Initially there's contact ease and they kind of, you know,

1986
01:51:09,560 --> 01:51:13,840
die on the vine for a bit. The Shaver stuff,

1987
01:51:13,840 --> 01:51:18,079
the fact that the sort of the initial seed is

1988
01:51:18,159 --> 01:51:21,840
straight out of theosophy, it's straight out of Lovecraft, it's

1989
01:51:21,840 --> 01:51:25,079
straight out of all those things. I think that that

1990
01:51:25,239 --> 01:51:27,000
is I think there's an element of the fruit for

1991
01:51:27,159 --> 01:51:29,520
the fruit of a poison tree. I think the fact

1992
01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:31,840
that it's since it's there at the beginning, Yes, you

1993
01:51:31,880 --> 01:51:35,640
can have people talk about radar traces and government conspiracies

1994
01:51:35,880 --> 01:51:39,800
for a while, but eventually it was going to go

1995
01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:43,439
back there and it absolutely has u And I think

1996
01:51:43,479 --> 01:51:45,920
that that's one of the integral parts of Shaver is

1997
01:51:46,720 --> 01:51:49,680
Shaver gets downplayed and made to be this weird, little

1998
01:51:49,720 --> 01:51:54,840
quaint thing by historians of sort of eufology, not necessarily

1999
01:51:54,920 --> 01:51:59,079
historians of contact eaism or flying saucersm but historians of euthology.

2000
01:51:59,319 --> 01:52:01,479
But you fast for the early twenty first century, and

2001
01:52:01,520 --> 01:52:05,399
it looks, frankly, a lot more like the Muria than

2002
01:52:05,439 --> 01:52:07,000
it looks like Zada Reticuli.

2003
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:09,119
Speaker 6: Well I drew down from the shelf.

2004
01:52:09,119 --> 01:52:11,000
Speaker 5: Here the book that changed all of that.

2005
01:52:11,840 --> 01:52:15,079
Speaker 6: It is The Interrupted Journey The Lost Hours of Border

2006
01:52:15,079 --> 01:52:18,119
Flying Saucer by John G. Fuller, And my copy is

2007
01:52:18,199 --> 01:52:21,840
autographed by Benjamin Sein and the doctor who wrote the introduction.

2008
01:52:22,479 --> 01:52:24,399
So this is of course the Barney and Betty Hill

2009
01:52:24,439 --> 01:52:29,399
case took uphology out of the hands of people like

2010
01:52:29,479 --> 01:52:33,000
Palmer and legitimize. That's nineteen sixty five, so that's roughly

2011
01:52:33,039 --> 01:52:36,720
twenty years after the Shaver mysteries first show up, and

2012
01:52:36,920 --> 01:52:42,640
about eighteen seventeen years after Roswell, and it completely changed.

2013
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:46,239
It opened the door for the spiritual version of ufology

2014
01:52:46,279 --> 01:52:47,479
that we see in the seventies.

2015
01:52:47,520 --> 01:52:50,560
Speaker 3: I would say two books in quick succession do that

2016
01:52:50,640 --> 01:52:55,880
one and Passport to Magonia. Yeah, absolutely, and Passport to Magonia.

2017
01:52:56,079 --> 01:52:58,520
I only only learned this back and I read it

2018
01:52:58,600 --> 01:53:00,960
years ago, and I had forgotten this. I was preparing

2019
01:53:01,279 --> 01:53:03,039
for a paper I was given earlier this year at

2020
01:53:03,079 --> 01:53:05,439
a conference on like the Deep Past and fairies and

2021
01:53:05,479 --> 01:53:11,079
all this stuff. It opens with pacall sarcophagus, Right, what

2022
01:53:11,119 --> 01:53:11,840
the fuck.

2023
01:53:12,079 --> 01:53:14,840
Speaker 2: Is which straight out of cheers to the gods.

2024
01:53:14,840 --> 01:53:18,439
Speaker 6: That's the Yeah, the magicians.

2025
01:53:18,760 --> 01:53:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, the these two. Well, yeah, there's that, There's that

2026
01:53:21,600 --> 01:53:26,880
whole element. But yeah, the basically Shaver anticipates and well

2027
01:53:27,079 --> 01:53:30,960
Shaver doesn't Palmer anticipates all. Well, I guess Shaver does.

2028
01:53:31,000 --> 01:53:34,279
I mean Shaver and Essence is anticipating the sexually charged

2029
01:53:34,359 --> 01:53:35,640
narratives of abductions.

2030
01:53:35,880 --> 01:53:40,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And that's that's that runs right.

2031
01:53:40,479 --> 01:53:42,880
Speaker 5: Through all the Shaver stories, right up until the very

2032
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:43,600
last ones.

2033
01:53:43,840 --> 01:53:46,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean his like we were talking about how

2034
01:53:46,239 --> 01:53:50,640
the pulps were slowly becoming basically erotica and porn. His

2035
01:53:50,720 --> 01:53:54,680
stuff had to be massively tamped down to make it

2036
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:55,520
into the pages.

2037
01:53:56,000 --> 01:53:58,199
Speaker 6: Well, he has in the story, he has a wife

2038
01:53:58,319 --> 01:54:00,520
that lives with him in the cave, who's very like

2039
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:04,680
the woman that people in the real movement see from

2040
01:54:04,720 --> 01:54:08,439
time to time, like like hot blonde women you know,

2041
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:11,600
giving you the good news is a pretty common trope

2042
01:54:11,720 --> 01:54:13,760
at this time, and contact.

2043
01:54:13,359 --> 01:54:16,359
Speaker 3: Ease with the same thing, with our rains and all

2044
01:54:16,399 --> 01:54:19,920
of that. And then there's all this weird like sort

2045
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:22,680
of sado masochism and these other kind of like ageah,

2046
01:54:23,079 --> 01:54:24,039
this weird stuff.

2047
01:54:24,520 --> 01:54:27,640
Speaker 6: Is it, Jeb You may know, because I don't. Is

2048
01:54:27,680 --> 01:54:30,560
it Palmer that introduces the whole concept of the Nordics

2049
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:32,840
and the tall whites and that whole.

2050
01:54:32,960 --> 01:54:38,319
Speaker 3: No, uh, not really because because honestly, in Lameria and

2051
01:54:38,399 --> 01:54:42,800
Shaver stuff, it's all they're all weird and giant sixty

2052
01:54:42,800 --> 01:54:44,479
foot snake women elder things.

2053
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:47,920
Speaker 6: So all that comes from the contacts.

2054
01:54:48,560 --> 01:54:51,520
Speaker 3: Well yeah, the early fifties. But it's just like the

2055
01:54:51,520 --> 01:54:52,119
stuff before.

2056
01:54:52,199 --> 01:54:55,000
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, but isn't it basically repurposing the

2057
01:54:55,840 --> 01:55:00,800
stuff from Blovatsky with the race core types in some sense?

2058
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:04,439
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Well and also quite a

2059
01:55:04,439 --> 01:55:06,680
few of the contact ees, I mean, so you know,

2060
01:55:06,720 --> 01:55:10,000
I've gotten this far without mentioning Michael Barkum, but you know,

2061
01:55:10,119 --> 01:55:13,680
quite quite a few of the contactees are have other

2062
01:55:13,800 --> 01:55:16,800
kinds of rejected knowledge, like like Nazism. Yeah, and so

2063
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:19,239
one of the one of the contacts, George Hunt Williams

2064
01:55:19,439 --> 01:55:25,920
Williamson that Shaver or Palmer published, was basically a Nazi sympathizer. So, yeah,

2065
01:55:25,920 --> 01:55:28,039
the tall Whites and the Nordics and all of that.

2066
01:55:28,439 --> 01:55:30,720
You know, the the idea that the Nazis had a

2067
01:55:30,760 --> 01:55:33,680
base in Antarctica and they had super secret technology that

2068
01:55:33,880 --> 01:55:37,640
was coming from Nazi sympathizers within years of the war.

2069
01:55:37,960 --> 01:55:42,800
Speaker 2: Yes, let's let's let's actually hop back to this timeline

2070
01:55:42,800 --> 01:55:44,279
thing for just to make because we're gonna I want

2071
01:55:44,279 --> 01:55:45,600
to get to that, but I wanted to come in

2072
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:51,600
context to the timeline. So we have this controversy in

2073
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:56,520
Palmer and the fandom. He breaks off and forms Fate magazine.

2074
01:55:56,880 --> 01:55:58,960
Speaker 3: They're forty eight, there are.

2075
01:56:00,600 --> 01:56:02,399
Speaker 2: We've talked about a monster talk before.

2076
01:56:02,720 --> 01:56:02,840
Speaker 4: Uh.

2077
01:56:03,239 --> 01:56:06,640
Speaker 2: The other big media at the time around this kind

2078
01:56:06,680 --> 01:56:11,720
of stuff was long John nebyllh Nebll Yeah, and so

2079
01:56:11,960 --> 01:56:16,399
Long John was already having on contact Ease and psychics

2080
01:56:16,439 --> 01:56:19,920
and all sorts of things. Uh, and he started to

2081
01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:22,439
include some of the Shaver mystery stuff on his show.

2082
01:56:22,520 --> 01:56:26,239
So that was coming out of New York and they

2083
01:56:26,319 --> 01:56:29,840
actually had the shows the party line, the party line. Yeah,

2084
01:56:30,079 --> 01:56:32,439
it was. It was a precursor to Coast to Coast.

2085
01:56:32,479 --> 01:56:34,960
If you haven't listened to our episode about it, I

2086
01:56:35,000 --> 01:56:37,880
recommend that you do. So there's some there's some audio

2087
01:56:38,000 --> 01:56:40,640
out on YouTube. We can put links to that in

2088
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:44,560
the show notes. It's it's really amazing. I think it

2089
01:56:44,560 --> 01:56:46,439
holds up very well. It's very engaging.

2090
01:56:46,960 --> 01:56:50,079
Speaker 6: Uh, listen to it because this was at a time

2091
01:56:50,119 --> 01:56:53,359
when everyone, every American white male sounded angry.

2092
01:56:53,880 --> 01:56:56,880
Speaker 3: Uh, that's that's not happened since.

2093
01:56:58,119 --> 01:57:01,840
Speaker 6: But it's like, sir, it's it's the opposite of the

2094
01:57:01,920 --> 01:57:05,520
Rogan experience where it's like, sir, do you mean, sir? Sir, sir.

2095
01:57:05,840 --> 01:57:07,399
It's it's hilarious to listen to.

2096
01:57:07,560 --> 01:57:13,159
Speaker 2: They're very polite, but but like you say, the anger certitude.

2097
01:57:14,720 --> 01:57:18,239
People people are eloquent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot

2098
01:57:18,239 --> 01:57:18,880
of eloquence.

2099
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:22,720
Speaker 6: And but then there's some great Brooklyn accents in there too.

2100
01:57:22,840 --> 01:57:26,119
Speaker 2: There are there are you can be eloquent and be

2101
01:57:26,199 --> 01:57:26,800
from Brooklyn.

2102
01:57:27,159 --> 01:57:30,720
Speaker 3: I mean, what we're hearing Palmer talk on the radio

2103
01:57:30,800 --> 01:57:33,479
does not help your attitude towards his credibility.

2104
01:57:33,880 --> 01:57:37,399
Speaker 2: No, but you know, you know, we've talked about Palmer

2105
01:57:37,439 --> 01:57:41,319
all this time, we haven't mentioned something really important about Ray.

2106
01:57:42,640 --> 01:57:42,840
Speaker 1: Ray.

2107
01:57:43,039 --> 01:57:48,640
Speaker 2: Ray had a physical injury when he was about seven

2108
01:57:48,720 --> 01:57:52,640
years old, and as a consequence of that, his back

2109
01:57:52,760 --> 01:57:54,760
was broken and he spent a huge amount of time

2110
01:57:55,720 --> 01:57:59,039
locked into traction. They thought he was gonna die. Basically,

2111
01:57:59,079 --> 01:58:01,000
he was sent off to a centatearium to die. There's

2112
01:58:01,039 --> 01:58:04,119
various versions of this story, but Ray was apparently about

2113
01:58:04,159 --> 01:58:07,840
four feet tall because of his back injury. Yeah, he

2114
01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:11,079
has a hunchback. I think Jerry mentioned that, and that's

2115
01:58:11,199 --> 01:58:12,439
how he self described.

2116
01:58:13,279 --> 01:58:15,239
Speaker 6: And this is of course why he does not go

2117
01:58:15,319 --> 01:58:17,119
to World War Two if we're wondering he was. He

2118
01:58:17,239 --> 01:58:19,079
was not a countard or a draft on it.

2119
01:58:19,399 --> 01:58:21,279
Speaker 3: He had never been drafted yet.

2120
01:58:21,239 --> 01:58:25,199
Speaker 2: Right, right, So he did other things, you know, he

2121
01:58:25,319 --> 01:58:30,319
entertained people, I suppose. But this this is actually tied

2122
01:58:30,359 --> 01:58:33,039
to this interesting thing that you mentioned before, Jeb, where

2123
01:58:33,039 --> 01:58:36,119
people are contacting you and they're thinking you're talking about

2124
01:58:36,159 --> 01:58:40,399
Ray Palmer the Adam. Yes, and this is I find

2125
01:58:40,399 --> 01:58:44,039
this fascinating. So what happened is the Adam was one

2126
01:58:44,079 --> 01:58:49,079
of those characters that d C had picked up and

2127
01:58:49,279 --> 01:58:52,000
was going to revitalize, and so they decided to turn

2128
01:58:52,079 --> 01:58:57,680
the atom into a science hero. And this is Julias

2129
01:58:57,720 --> 01:59:00,640
Schwartz who was doing this work, and he's a friend

2130
01:59:00,640 --> 01:59:02,760
of Ray Palmer's, and he calls up Ray and says, hey,

2131
01:59:03,159 --> 01:59:07,399
I want to turn the atom into a hero again.

2132
01:59:07,800 --> 01:59:10,079
We're gonna do it DC, and I want to name

2133
01:59:10,159 --> 01:59:13,399
him after you. And of course the joke being that

2134
01:59:13,880 --> 01:59:16,479
the Adam's power is he's very small, but he's also

2135
01:59:17,119 --> 01:59:21,680
a science guy, which is I think, uh, I think

2136
01:59:22,000 --> 01:59:26,560
not that accurate. I mean, Ray is known for his

2137
01:59:26,600 --> 01:59:29,239
science fiction work, but when you actually read what Ray wrote,

2138
01:59:29,279 --> 01:59:31,840
it's not that science Yuh well, yeah.

2139
01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:33,720
Speaker 6: Let me let me cavea out. That just a little

2140
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:37,319
bit blake if you read the old fake magazines. We're

2141
01:59:37,439 --> 01:59:40,000
kind of being a little hard on him. Fate did

2142
01:59:40,039 --> 01:59:42,600
a lot of hard science, and they did, and in

2143
01:59:42,720 --> 01:59:44,600
later years in the seventies, they did a lot of

2144
01:59:44,720 --> 01:59:47,760
good debunking on once Palmer had kind of left the scene.

2145
01:59:47,760 --> 01:59:51,880
But Fate is brought low by the worst of it.

2146
01:59:52,039 --> 01:59:54,560
But there's actually some damn good stuff in there. There

2147
01:59:54,560 --> 01:59:58,520
are whole issues that read more like like Popular Mechanics

2148
01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:00,960
than then a UFO zine.

2149
02:00:01,079 --> 02:00:04,279
Speaker 3: So you're saying it's more Discovery Channel than History Channel.

2150
02:00:04,359 --> 02:00:08,479
Speaker 6: It's more Discovery Channel than History Channel in that occasionally

2151
02:00:09,119 --> 02:00:12,000
there is a little nugget of goodness in a sea

2152
02:00:12,039 --> 02:00:14,159
of just stuff I watch while I'm.

2153
02:00:14,079 --> 02:00:15,000
Speaker 5: Folding my laundry.

2154
02:00:15,359 --> 02:00:18,600
Speaker 2: Well I have I don't have some of the really

2155
02:00:18,640 --> 02:00:23,560
oldest fates, but I do have some. Uh the the

2156
02:00:23,600 --> 02:00:26,239
Watertown ghosts mystery I tried.

2157
02:00:26,239 --> 02:00:29,520
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, was that boy that was.

2158
02:00:29,479 --> 02:00:31,239
Speaker 5: Born out of Fate magazine, wasn't it?

2159
02:00:32,039 --> 02:00:34,640
Speaker 2: To an extent? I mean, the the photo existed long

2160
02:00:34,680 --> 02:00:37,560
before that, But the first serious investigation, well even that's

2161
02:00:37,560 --> 02:00:40,800
not true. Harowood Carrington investigated it, but I don't know

2162
02:00:40,840 --> 02:00:44,920
if he published his work, But the later on it

2163
02:00:45,000 --> 02:00:48,600
got researched in most of the details we have, and

2164
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:52,000
one of the better photos we have of the original

2165
02:00:52,119 --> 02:00:56,800
is from Fate as well. So yeah, yeah, So anyway,

2166
02:00:56,840 --> 02:01:01,000
I didn't mean to sidetrack on that, but the uh yeah,

2167
02:01:01,039 --> 02:01:06,279
Palmer has broken off from this, and so I was

2168
02:01:06,279 --> 02:01:09,359
gonna say, the science fiction community is mad at him

2169
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:12,520
because he keeps keeping this coy attitude around whether or

2170
02:01:12,560 --> 02:01:15,079
not these things are true. Does he really believe in

2171
02:01:15,079 --> 02:01:17,319
the Shaver mysteries? Is that stuff's really supposed to be

2172
02:01:17,319 --> 02:01:19,720
happening or is it all fiction or what is going on?

2173
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:22,880
And one of the famous stories around that is that

2174
02:01:23,479 --> 02:01:26,119
at one of these science fiction conventions, which were still

2175
02:01:26,119 --> 02:01:31,039
in their early days back then, Palmer gets cornered in

2176
02:01:31,159 --> 02:01:35,359
a elevator by a fan who's also a writer, a

2177
02:01:35,399 --> 02:01:41,720
guy named Harlan Ellison, and Ellison insists that Ray tell

2178
02:01:41,800 --> 02:01:44,399
the truth about what's going on with the Shaver mysteries.

2179
02:01:45,119 --> 02:01:47,199
Speaker 3: And I'm just gonna put this out there, Harlan Ellison

2180
02:01:47,199 --> 02:01:48,720
would make if I was in an elevator with him,

2181
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:50,399
he would make me pee my pants because he's a

2182
02:01:50,520 --> 02:01:51,439
terrified individual.

2183
02:01:51,520 --> 02:01:54,840
Speaker 2: He was a very terrifying individual. He was also not

2184
02:01:54,960 --> 02:01:57,000
very tall. I was just these both of these guys

2185
02:01:57,000 --> 02:02:00,520
are basically titans within science fiction, yet tiny and life

2186
02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:04,159
so uh, I just imagining the two of them having

2187
02:02:04,159 --> 02:02:06,439
that encounter in elevator. I would have loved to have

2188
02:02:06,439 --> 02:02:09,800
been a fly on the wall. But Ray basically said, look,

2189
02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:12,319
I was cornered, I was an elevator. It was obvious.

2190
02:02:12,319 --> 02:02:14,600
Harlan wasn't going to let me go until I confess.

2191
02:02:14,720 --> 02:02:16,319
So I gave him what he wanted, so he let

2192
02:02:16,359 --> 02:02:17,119
me out of the elevator.

2193
02:02:17,199 --> 02:02:21,039
Speaker 8: Right, let's a shame him. Let me talk with Ray

2194
02:02:21,119 --> 02:02:23,319
Palmer again for a couple of minutes, if you will,

2195
02:02:23,319 --> 02:02:28,239
please Hello, hell right, ask it lay sometime. Ad All.

2196
02:02:28,399 --> 02:02:31,479
We had a young man on the program just about

2197
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:37,039
a year ago, a young man who writes science fiction. Yes,

2198
02:02:37,279 --> 02:02:40,680
and he made the statement that he met you at

2199
02:02:40,760 --> 02:02:45,279
a convention of science fiction writers convention a few years back.

2200
02:02:46,119 --> 02:02:48,960
That is correct. And you know who I'm referring to

2201
02:02:49,119 --> 02:02:52,079
the thank you, Harlem Ellison at that he made the

2202
02:02:52,199 --> 02:02:57,520
statement on the program here the two gold him. That's

2203
02:02:57,560 --> 02:03:03,159
the uh, that's the shame in tree all things that

2204
02:03:03,319 --> 02:03:09,439
you published them just to create good circulation for amazing history. Well,

2205
02:03:09,520 --> 02:03:13,640
I think now that that's demands an explanation, which I

2206
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:15,680
think I can give you when you try.

2207
02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:16,039
Speaker 6: Please.

2208
02:03:16,319 --> 02:03:18,800
Speaker 8: When I went to that convention, I was very sick.

2209
02:03:20,039 --> 02:03:24,359
I was invited to the convention and made the trip

2210
02:03:24,439 --> 02:03:27,600
inspite of being ill. Now, when I got there, I

2211
02:03:27,680 --> 02:03:34,119
expected to receive what D say, courteous reception, and instead

2212
02:03:34,239 --> 02:03:38,319
I met with a group which I which I believe

2213
02:03:39,479 --> 02:03:42,880
was mostly linked with mister Ellison. It would have me

2214
02:03:42,960 --> 02:03:47,199
decided that they were going to bagine me. I see now.

2215
02:03:47,239 --> 02:03:52,560
They kept asking questions which actually you can't answer without

2216
02:03:53,720 --> 02:03:56,159
it's a sort of a question to do you well

2217
02:03:56,319 --> 02:04:01,199
beat your wife in the fact ration. Finally, when he

2218
02:04:01,279 --> 02:04:04,039
to in front of me in the cellarator, I said, well,

2219
02:04:04,039 --> 02:04:06,159
what do you want me to answer to the question?

2220
02:04:07,119 --> 02:04:10,680
He said the truth. I said, well, I've told you

2221
02:04:10,800 --> 02:04:13,960
the truth and you haven't existed. This is my only

2222
02:04:14,039 --> 02:04:17,079
alternative is to tell you what you want to hear.

2223
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:20,479
And this is entirely fiction, and that it was donal

2224
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:26,119
their purpos's raising circulation. Now this was done in what

2225
02:04:27,079 --> 02:04:30,479
you might say, with anger. It was done off but

2226
02:04:30,640 --> 02:04:34,479
said hadn't, and it was done to rid myself of

2227
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:37,720
these this group which intended to follow me the home

2228
02:04:38,000 --> 02:04:45,319
the whole of convention and apparently we're having to take

2229
02:04:45,359 --> 02:04:47,239
you the fun out of measuring me. They had no

2230
02:04:47,359 --> 02:04:50,479
intentions of of giving me a chat to get out.

2231
02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:55,439
Sary say, I'm saying that is the actual conditions in

2232
02:04:55,520 --> 02:05:00,600
my statements semester Ellison. I've had several runn with mister

2233
02:05:00,680 --> 02:05:04,880
Allison sis and one of them came about as a

2234
02:05:04,920 --> 02:05:10,039
result of his oppearance on your program. And I did

2235
02:05:10,079 --> 02:05:14,039
at that time tell him that I at my statement,

2236
02:05:14,159 --> 02:05:16,439
Sam and I elevator work were in the in the

2237
02:05:16,520 --> 02:05:19,600
vein that we got to just describe to you. I see,

2238
02:05:19,840 --> 02:05:21,720
I think it's cold, easily understand that.

2239
02:05:23,119 --> 02:05:23,239
Speaker 6: Uh.

2240
02:05:24,279 --> 02:05:28,920
Speaker 8: I don't believe that it is necessary to give an

2241
02:05:28,920 --> 02:05:32,920
honest fanswers or personal UH. Does give me the courtesy

2242
02:05:33,399 --> 02:05:39,600
I see of the chance to give you an honor STANSWERU. Actually,

2243
02:05:41,119 --> 02:05:45,640
I don't think that anybody with the against an editor

2244
02:05:45,800 --> 02:05:49,199
trying to increase the circulation of a magazine. Well, I

2245
02:05:49,279 --> 02:05:52,479
want to clarify that too. If I wasn't hired by

2246
02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:58,600
this Day's too to get a lot of returns. I

2247
02:05:58,800 --> 02:06:02,239
was hired to sell magazine. And I realized from the

2248
02:06:02,359 --> 02:06:05,079
very beginning that the fam Mystery was the thing that

2249
02:06:05,319 --> 02:06:09,840
was so magazine. He had certainly from around fifty thouds

2250
02:06:09,960 --> 02:06:14,880
when I took this thing over, and it was and

2251
02:06:15,000 --> 02:06:18,439
thirty five thous when I got hold of the gabor mestery.

2252
02:06:19,399 --> 02:06:22,760
Over night we raised in fifty and eighty five thousands,

2253
02:06:23,359 --> 02:06:26,520
which is a finger for a fiction magazine of that type.

2254
02:06:26,680 --> 02:06:28,840
Speaker 3: That's possibly the most honest thing I've ever heard him say.

2255
02:06:29,079 --> 02:06:32,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, it truly is. But it's impossible to underscore how

2256
02:06:32,800 --> 02:06:34,720
small that community was at that time.

2257
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:36,560
Speaker 2: And he's not talk about how tall they were. He's

2258
02:06:36,600 --> 02:06:38,960
talking about how tiny the community in number.

2259
02:06:39,760 --> 02:06:43,520
Speaker 6: I regret that I'm just slightly too young to have

2260
02:06:43,680 --> 02:06:46,600
gotten out of the early sort of sci fi stuff

2261
02:06:47,439 --> 02:06:49,680
that I went to in the eighties and early nineties,

2262
02:06:49,720 --> 02:06:52,319
because that community even then was very small.

2263
02:06:52,439 --> 02:06:53,840
Speaker 5: You could show a bit of sci fi.

2264
02:06:53,880 --> 02:06:57,880
Speaker 6: Convention and meet legends, yeah know, and not only meet him,

2265
02:06:58,000 --> 02:06:59,079
you could eat lunch with him.

2266
02:06:59,199 --> 02:07:00,720
Speaker 5: Yes, like that anymore.

2267
02:07:01,399 --> 02:07:04,079
Speaker 3: This is when it was still actually like freaks and

2268
02:07:04,159 --> 02:07:07,359
geeks and weirdos and not the only thing that is

2269
02:07:07,479 --> 02:07:09,439
the part of our economy, right.

2270
02:07:09,520 --> 02:07:13,359
Speaker 6: Exactly, So have Harlan Ellison and Ray Palmer in the

2271
02:07:13,399 --> 02:07:17,600
same elevator is not fantastical. It also underscores the extent

2272
02:07:17,680 --> 02:07:21,239
of which the Shaver mysteries at the time were influential,

2273
02:07:21,439 --> 02:07:23,640
and we've just sort of decided to forget about them.

2274
02:07:24,000 --> 02:07:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, because upologists absolutely wanted to

2275
02:07:28,239 --> 02:07:31,960
you know, the you know, Keyho and nihap and and

2276
02:07:32,439 --> 02:07:35,560
traditionally euthology. They didn't want to do with the contact ees,

2277
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:38,119
they didn't want to do with occupant cases, they didn't

2278
02:07:38,119 --> 02:07:41,319
want to do with crashes. All these things were being

2279
02:07:41,960 --> 02:07:47,840
reported and said, and they're like no, just radar, just photos. Okay,

2280
02:07:48,119 --> 02:07:52,880
maybe because there's a hypnosis involved this couple in New Hampshire,

2281
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:57,359
maybe with the with the hills. Yeah, but this was

2282
02:07:57,840 --> 02:07:59,880
a large chunk of it. I don't I don't know.

2283
02:08:00,000 --> 02:08:03,279
I would say the bulk of it. But there's been

2284
02:08:03,319 --> 02:08:08,920
a long history of pelts and pause or nuts and bolts,

2285
02:08:09,039 --> 02:08:15,079
people ignoring demonological or religious imagery, and abduction cases or

2286
02:08:15,840 --> 02:08:21,680
strange you know, portals and UFOs and whatnot in cryptozoology

2287
02:08:21,760 --> 02:08:23,680
cases and all these things being weird in your mixed

2288
02:08:24,680 --> 02:08:27,920
and I would argue that it is when people are

2289
02:08:27,960 --> 02:08:30,560
able to tell these stories themselves, not unlike the letter

2290
02:08:30,680 --> 02:08:34,239
columns with the Internet, that all of a sudden.

2291
02:08:34,479 --> 02:08:35,159
Speaker 6: This comes back.

2292
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:38,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know that the gatekeepers aren't gatekeeping.

2293
02:08:39,319 --> 02:08:44,079
Speaker 6: So the point is is that Ray Palmer created, in

2294
02:08:44,239 --> 02:08:48,399
his own way what we might call modern Saucerianism, with

2295
02:08:48,560 --> 02:08:52,880
the idea that in his mind, the Saucerians, the creatures

2296
02:08:52,920 --> 02:08:55,359
from another planet, didn't come from another planet, they came

2297
02:08:55,359 --> 02:08:58,479
from inside the Earth, right Like. That was what he

2298
02:08:58,640 --> 02:09:01,600
was pushing, is that these these critters that we see

2299
02:09:01,640 --> 02:09:06,279
as aliens were actually the precursors to modern humanity.

2300
02:09:06,439 --> 02:09:07,199
Speaker 3: And in a way.

2301
02:09:08,039 --> 02:09:10,600
Speaker 6: That's a lot neater and cleaner than the idea that

2302
02:09:11,600 --> 02:09:14,039
somebody could develop faster than light travel and get here

2303
02:09:14,079 --> 02:09:14,800
to planet Earth.

2304
02:09:15,159 --> 02:09:18,399
Speaker 5: And that's like using them and then look like us exactly.

2305
02:09:18,880 --> 02:09:22,199
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, And in fact, you see that idea that

2306
02:09:22,319 --> 02:09:23,840
things were here and then they go out. I mean

2307
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:26,439
the X Files eventually went there, for example, in fiction,

2308
02:09:26,600 --> 02:09:29,399
all the time afterwards you know it's it. And of

2309
02:09:29,479 --> 02:09:33,800
course there's elements of the previous writers have been talking

2310
02:09:33,800 --> 02:09:36,560
about as well. No, it's super influential and no one

2311
02:09:36,640 --> 02:09:39,079
wants to mention it. And I kind of get why.

2312
02:09:39,800 --> 02:09:42,840
Like I have been trepidacious about this episode, because the

2313
02:09:42,920 --> 02:09:45,399
more I read of I remember Lemuria, the more I

2314
02:09:45,399 --> 02:09:48,239
read this, I'm like, I don't like this guy. Like

2315
02:09:48,399 --> 02:09:53,640
this guy is using a man with clear mental problems

2316
02:09:54,079 --> 02:09:58,960
with mental illness, taking his stuff and capitalizing and searching

2317
02:09:59,039 --> 02:10:02,439
for others like he's for other shavers. She just didn't

2318
02:10:02,520 --> 02:10:06,560
find them. Yeah, and then coyly, which is probably the

2319
02:10:07,039 --> 02:10:09,520
most polite way one can tricks to really say it

2320
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:15,039
spins it into a small industry all for the benefit,

2321
02:10:15,079 --> 02:10:17,359
and he pretty much just smirks about it through the

2322
02:10:17,399 --> 02:10:19,800
rest of his life. And I'm like.

2323
02:10:21,479 --> 02:10:21,760
Speaker 1: The one.

2324
02:10:22,079 --> 02:10:24,760
Speaker 3: The sort of the takeaway from me, I have been

2325
02:10:24,800 --> 02:10:28,720
interested in this stuff sense of very early age, you know,

2326
02:10:29,159 --> 02:10:31,199
like every other gen xer. At some point I could say, well,

2327
02:10:31,239 --> 02:10:33,199
I watched in search of you know, but like since

2328
02:10:33,239 --> 02:10:34,760
a very early age, I've been interested, and I have

2329
02:10:34,840 --> 02:10:39,359
been interested in this academically for a very long time.

2330
02:10:40,199 --> 02:10:44,640
And the thing I had always been told by folks is, oh,

2331
02:10:45,119 --> 02:10:49,520
don't there's no interest in that. It's just cooks and Charlatans.

2332
02:10:49,960 --> 02:10:52,000
You know, it's just people in Arkansas. You know. It's

2333
02:10:52,039 --> 02:10:55,239
just now I think they're wrong in terms of the

2334
02:10:55,319 --> 02:10:57,960
big social First of all, you look into the history

2335
02:10:57,960 --> 02:11:00,760
of redology, it's actually tied very much to elites and

2336
02:11:00,800 --> 02:11:03,640
all other kinds of people all across the spectrum. Everyone

2337
02:11:03,800 --> 02:11:08,439
has elements of this. It doesn't work that way. And secondly,

2338
02:11:08,560 --> 02:11:11,800
it's clearly had a massive impact on our society. It's

2339
02:11:11,800 --> 02:11:14,199
been a lot easier to talk about conspiracy theory since oh,

2340
02:11:14,239 --> 02:11:19,680
I don't know, November eight, twenty sixteen, but literally getting

2341
02:11:19,680 --> 02:11:22,239
to the bottom of flying sauces in UFOs and seeing

2342
02:11:22,439 --> 02:11:24,680
a guy hearing stuff from an arc welder and a

2343
02:11:24,720 --> 02:11:28,560
guy who's basically a Charlatan selling. It is not really

2344
02:11:28,600 --> 02:11:31,479
making me feel good right now about studying people who

2345
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:33,239
believe in UFOL. What happens next?

2346
02:11:33,319 --> 02:11:34,199
Speaker 2: What happens next?

2347
02:11:34,680 --> 02:11:35,199
Speaker 3: What does he do?

2348
02:11:35,600 --> 02:11:38,920
Speaker 2: He goes, he makes Fate magazine. What happens to the

2349
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:39,800
Shaver mysteries?

2350
02:11:40,680 --> 02:11:42,680
Speaker 6: I mean he keeps running them up until the fifties.

2351
02:11:42,760 --> 02:11:46,520
I think the last Shaver mystery story is nineteen fifty six. Yeah,

2352
02:11:46,720 --> 02:11:49,920
and they are heavily built on by other people. I

2353
02:11:50,000 --> 02:11:53,520
think it's actually a woman that writes in and proposes

2354
02:11:53,600 --> 02:11:54,359
the mythology.

2355
02:11:54,520 --> 02:11:55,119
Speaker 3: That's that.

2356
02:11:55,600 --> 02:12:00,960
Speaker 6: And this goes to the whole Dulce story. This idea that, uh,

2357
02:12:01,039 --> 02:12:05,359
there are elevators that can take you in all world's

2358
02:12:05,399 --> 02:12:07,000
major capitals down into.

2359
02:12:07,000 --> 02:12:10,079
Speaker 5: The place where the darros and tares exist, push.

2360
02:12:09,960 --> 02:12:12,319
Speaker 3: The buttons a certain amount of time or something like that.

2361
02:12:12,840 --> 02:12:15,239
Speaker 6: And so there's these people that run around looking for

2362
02:12:15,479 --> 02:12:18,159
elevators to try to take them down into.

2363
02:12:18,159 --> 02:12:19,880
Speaker 3: The basements under a pizza place.

2364
02:12:20,520 --> 02:12:22,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, well can you give it?

2365
02:12:23,399 --> 02:12:25,600
Speaker 6: Hit that pizza place and there's no basement there.

2366
02:12:25,680 --> 02:12:28,680
Speaker 2: Well, there's no Bob. That's the common problem. Can you

2367
02:12:28,800 --> 02:12:30,039
quickly talk about Dulce?

2368
02:12:30,760 --> 02:12:31,119
Speaker 3: I don't.

2369
02:12:31,479 --> 02:12:33,359
Speaker 2: Some of our listeners have probably never heard of it.

2370
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:36,199
Speaker 6: Oh you have not. You have never done an episode

2371
02:12:36,239 --> 02:12:37,960
on Dulce head close as we can't.

2372
02:12:38,000 --> 02:12:40,960
Speaker 2: We briefly talked about it when we talked about skim Walker.

2373
02:12:42,239 --> 02:12:44,279
Speaker 6: So Dulce Bass was one that was sort of born

2374
02:12:44,359 --> 02:12:48,079
out of the Art Bell Show. Really a lot like

2375
02:12:48,199 --> 02:12:52,960
John Long. I assume you're if listeners don't know Art Bell,

2376
02:12:53,039 --> 02:12:54,359
they need to log out right now.

2377
02:12:54,359 --> 02:12:57,960
Speaker 3: And do some different Well comes out of it's a

2378
02:12:58,039 --> 02:12:58,880
fair to some degree.

2379
02:12:58,960 --> 02:12:59,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

2380
02:13:00,039 --> 02:13:02,479
Speaker 6: And it's this idea that under Dulcain, New Mexico is

2381
02:13:02,479 --> 02:13:06,279
a giant alien base. I'll tell this story since we're

2382
02:13:06,920 --> 02:13:11,960
since we're talking, I got a call a couple of

2383
02:13:12,039 --> 02:13:15,600
years back. My first job with the agency I worked

2384
02:13:15,600 --> 02:13:18,640
for was treaty archivist in the United States. So I

2385
02:13:18,720 --> 02:13:21,800
get a call from a guy who a soccer fan

2386
02:13:21,920 --> 02:13:25,399
from the UK, who has an English accent and probably

2387
02:13:25,600 --> 02:13:30,159
likes Cyan colored shirts, who asked me for a copy

2388
02:13:31,000 --> 02:13:36,800
of the greata Treaty between the United States Government, President

2389
02:13:36,880 --> 02:13:41,479
Eisenhower and the Gray Aliens. And I informed him without

2390
02:13:41,560 --> 02:13:43,880
even walking into the vault, that we did not have

2391
02:13:44,000 --> 02:13:45,560
such a treaty. Of course I knew what it was.

2392
02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:48,399
This was supposed to be in nineteen fifty four, and

2393
02:13:48,880 --> 02:13:51,840
we got into a huge road that lasted about two

2394
02:13:51,960 --> 02:13:55,760
hours in discussing this this is not something that you're

2395
02:13:55,800 --> 02:14:00,439
supposed to do in your capacity as a government employee.

2396
02:14:00,439 --> 02:14:02,560
And whenever he found out my last name was Drake,

2397
02:14:03,359 --> 02:14:06,000
that made it. That's a that's a very that's a

2398
02:14:06,159 --> 02:14:09,399
very icky situation to be in. Yeah, if your name

2399
02:14:09,520 --> 02:14:15,000
is Drake and you work for a certain government agencies,

2400
02:14:15,079 --> 02:14:15,680
that's not great.

2401
02:14:16,439 --> 02:14:18,319
Speaker 2: You were on the phone for two hours, were able

2402
02:14:18,359 --> 02:14:20,840
two hours to get like a snack, like a like

2403
02:14:20,920 --> 02:14:23,359
a some ike and mic or hours.

2404
02:14:23,479 --> 02:14:25,640
Speaker 6: And there was a point blake where I literally had

2405
02:14:26,119 --> 02:14:28,000
my feet up on the wall and I was like

2406
02:14:28,119 --> 02:14:30,079
stomping the wall trying to get off the phone with

2407
02:14:30,159 --> 02:14:34,479
this guy. The greata treaty does not exist, but it

2408
02:14:34,600 --> 02:14:36,319
was a treaty that it was supposed to be between

2409
02:14:36,319 --> 02:14:39,079
the Gray aliens, who some people are villainous, who are

2410
02:14:39,119 --> 02:14:43,840
in others are good guys. And basically what President Eisenhower

2411
02:14:43,880 --> 02:14:46,960
supposedly agreed to was that we would allow the Grays

2412
02:14:47,039 --> 02:14:51,399
to take a certain quota of human beings from the

2413
02:14:51,520 --> 02:14:55,279
Earth in exchange for access to their advanced technology.

2414
02:14:56,039 --> 02:14:58,560
Speaker 5: And I cannot remember the guy's name in God I

2415
02:14:58,600 --> 02:14:59,199
wish I could.

2416
02:14:59,439 --> 02:15:05,119
Speaker 6: Supposedly, on the Art Bell Show, it was disclosed that

2417
02:15:05,119 --> 02:15:08,760
the base where the Grays, the Draco's, the Tall Whites,

2418
02:15:08,840 --> 02:15:12,199
all these characters interact and live together is under a

2419
02:15:12,239 --> 02:15:17,199
mountain in Dulce, New Mexico, and it goes down into

2420
02:15:17,359 --> 02:15:20,000
the part of the world that is inhabited by the

2421
02:15:20,119 --> 02:15:21,079
Darrow Yeah.

2422
02:15:21,560 --> 02:15:24,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like they were they were they were building

2423
02:15:24,560 --> 02:15:26,399
a base, they were already trying to build a base,

2424
02:15:26,479 --> 02:15:29,880
and they break into and already existing cavern and they're.

2425
02:15:29,720 --> 02:15:32,239
Speaker 6: Like, oh, exactly people.

2426
02:15:32,960 --> 02:15:34,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, this this comes out of even I think

2427
02:15:34,880 --> 02:15:36,920
even before the Art Bell thing. So there's the Paul

2428
02:15:36,960 --> 02:15:40,680
Benowitz stuff in the eighties, and I am blanking on

2429
02:15:40,960 --> 02:15:44,720
the name of the abductee that allegedly she has been

2430
02:15:44,880 --> 02:15:48,520
down to level six, the hell level the hell where

2431
02:15:48,560 --> 02:15:52,560
they are like like mutating people, and that there's people

2432
02:15:52,680 --> 02:15:55,159
down there that are screaming for help, but the guards

2433
02:15:55,159 --> 02:15:57,600
are said, don't talk to them because they're clearly crazy.

2434
02:15:58,159 --> 02:16:00,520
And so if you've ever heard any story stories like

2435
02:16:00,640 --> 02:16:03,800
man talk like Pizzagate, like all these things of oh,

2436
02:16:04,520 --> 02:16:07,880
by the tens of thousands people are being kidnapped and

2437
02:16:08,079 --> 02:16:12,720
used for horrible experiments and sacrificed and cannibalized. This story

2438
02:16:12,760 --> 02:16:15,720
in the in the in the eighties, that becomes dulce.

2439
02:16:17,239 --> 02:16:19,840
It's very Shaverian, It's extremely shaving.

2440
02:16:20,399 --> 02:16:23,000
Speaker 6: It totally is, and it requires shaver for that piece

2441
02:16:23,079 --> 02:16:23,840
of the mythology.

2442
02:16:23,960 --> 02:16:24,640
Speaker 5: It really was.

2443
02:16:25,960 --> 02:16:28,239
Speaker 6: But the idea that you can get on these magical

2444
02:16:28,279 --> 02:16:31,159
elevators and go down into the world really adds to

2445
02:16:31,439 --> 02:16:35,200
the sort of the mythology of it. I've even I

2446
02:16:35,319 --> 02:16:38,280
even saw somebody the other day who suggested that Alyssa

2447
02:16:38,360 --> 02:16:42,079
Lamb was trying to get to the the Darro's world

2448
02:16:42,319 --> 02:16:44,799
in that elevator in that damn hotel where she ended

2449
02:16:44,879 --> 02:16:49,040
up in the Oh God, like these stories.

2450
02:16:49,319 --> 02:16:53,120
Speaker 2: That's that's the wrong way she was going up. I know,

2451
02:16:53,639 --> 02:16:53,840
I know.

2452
02:16:54,239 --> 02:16:56,639
Speaker 6: But the point is is that these stories are so

2453
02:16:57,840 --> 02:17:02,680
fluid and so universal in these tropes that anything, it's perfect.

2454
02:17:02,319 --> 02:17:05,760
Speaker 3: For the puffed Oh yeah, well, I mean bark Barker's

2455
02:17:06,120 --> 02:17:12,680
apocalyptic Uh what does he call it? Improvisational apocalypticism?

2456
02:17:12,760 --> 02:17:13,600
Speaker 5: I mean exactly.

2457
02:17:14,079 --> 02:17:17,440
Speaker 6: Any Any of your convenient mythologies related to the paranormal

2458
02:17:17,479 --> 02:17:21,000
can be folded into this. From QAnon, Pizzagate, Alyssa Lamb.

2459
02:17:21,479 --> 02:17:24,760
It all works. You just keep adding, you just keep adding.

2460
02:17:25,440 --> 02:17:29,399
You know, lego expansion kits to the original mythology, and

2461
02:17:29,440 --> 02:17:30,159
you can go on for it.

2462
02:17:30,280 --> 02:17:32,399
Speaker 3: And I think the fact that it starts with Palmer

2463
02:17:32,639 --> 02:17:35,680
doing that in fact, gives it part of that cast,

2464
02:17:35,879 --> 02:17:38,879
like you know it. I think that I think that

2465
02:17:39,040 --> 02:17:42,200
is important to the fact that UFOs have always been

2466
02:17:42,280 --> 02:17:45,120
the one like this, you know, you know, we're talking

2467
02:17:45,159 --> 02:17:47,600
about the parentlym unified field theory. One could argue it's

2468
02:17:47,639 --> 02:17:50,000
a takeover of all the rest by parapsychology. But if

2469
02:17:50,000 --> 02:17:52,680
you look at those those things, you look at crypto,

2470
02:17:52,959 --> 02:17:54,840
you know, the normal thing that monsters talks about, you

2471
02:17:54,879 --> 02:17:59,680
look at parapsychology. For most of the twentieth century, they

2472
02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:04,120
if I had to stay within their alleged academic whatever

2473
02:18:04,200 --> 02:18:06,120
you want to call it, we're looking for plesiosaurs, we're

2474
02:18:06,159 --> 02:18:09,760
looking for psychic abilities. Whatever. UFOs started there, but it

2475
02:18:09,920 --> 02:18:13,079
was always the one that bled farther, you know, that

2476
02:18:13,159 --> 02:18:17,719
would produce a Kiel, that would produce a Valet, that

2477
02:18:17,799 --> 02:18:21,840
would produce abductees and Level six and all of that.

2478
02:18:21,959 --> 02:18:24,920
And I think the fact that it started with a

2479
02:18:25,040 --> 02:18:30,520
mishmash of Ojaspi and pulps is part of that.

2480
02:18:31,280 --> 02:18:34,000
Speaker 6: Well, it's the people's literature in the same way that

2481
02:18:34,159 --> 02:18:36,000
four chan and read it and eight chan and all

2482
02:18:36,079 --> 02:18:39,239
that is the people's literature. It's a place where those

2483
02:18:39,399 --> 02:18:42,040
folks can get affirmation in a way that they can't

2484
02:18:42,079 --> 02:18:45,959
get from traditional academia. I mean, they're trying to build

2485
02:18:46,000 --> 02:18:52,600
a sidebar to legitimate intellectual pursuit that satisfies their ends.

2486
02:18:52,879 --> 02:18:55,200
Speaker 3: And I'm trying to remember the exact quote from Ray Palmer,

2487
02:18:55,239 --> 02:18:58,200
but Ray Palmer at some point basically said something like

2488
02:18:58,719 --> 02:19:00,840
the purpose of the parent is to make.

2489
02:19:00,719 --> 02:19:04,520
Speaker 5: You think, yeah, but it kind of doesn't.

2490
02:19:05,000 --> 02:19:08,159
Speaker 3: No, it just makes you regurgitate these ideas, but call

2491
02:19:08,239 --> 02:19:09,079
them new and shining.

2492
02:19:10,000 --> 02:19:12,040
Speaker 2: He also said, I mean, he also kind of tied

2493
02:19:12,079 --> 02:19:14,959
into my pet peeve about the way that fiction and

2494
02:19:17,159 --> 02:19:19,760
fantasy sort of overlap and in folklore.

2495
02:19:19,920 --> 02:19:20,399
Speaker 1: He said that.

2496
02:19:21,399 --> 02:19:26,719
Speaker 2: Fiction often shapes our perception of reality, particularly of the extraordinary,

2497
02:19:27,280 --> 02:19:30,959
and he was specifically talking there about how that people's

2498
02:19:31,559 --> 02:19:34,719
perception of the unusual is affected by the things they've

2499
02:19:34,840 --> 02:19:41,239
read or experienced in the world of fiction. So you're like, yes, yes, yes, Ray, Ray, Yes,

2500
02:19:41,639 --> 02:19:45,159
the things you are writing, is affecting how people perceive

2501
02:19:45,319 --> 02:19:49,799
the stuff that they're experiencing. Yes, exactly so. And also

2502
02:19:50,040 --> 02:19:53,280
one more thing that I think is of interest. There's

2503
02:19:53,319 --> 02:19:58,120
a sort of stereotype of the skeptic who just dismisses

2504
02:19:58,319 --> 02:20:02,200
these weird claims as that person's got a mental illness.

2505
02:20:02,319 --> 02:20:05,280
That person and you know in the non piece way

2506
02:20:05,360 --> 02:20:06,920
that that person's crazy.

2507
02:20:06,719 --> 02:20:08,799
Speaker 3: Like all the people telling me why you're looking into.

2508
02:20:08,719 --> 02:20:13,840
Speaker 2: This, right, exactly so. The thing is, though, there are

2509
02:20:14,000 --> 02:20:17,840
people with mental illness, and I think in this particular case,

2510
02:20:18,559 --> 02:20:23,799
multiple people with mental illness have been taken advantage of,

2511
02:20:24,239 --> 02:20:30,120
manipulated and lost a lot because of others who were

2512
02:20:30,159 --> 02:20:35,479
trying to control the narrative. Not just Benwitz, not just Shaver.

2513
02:20:35,639 --> 02:20:39,440
I'm thinking here of like Phil Schneider, who was another

2514
02:20:39,639 --> 02:20:40,879
dulce person who.

2515
02:20:41,040 --> 02:20:44,120
Speaker 3: Well, well here's one for you. I mean, so Shaver.

2516
02:20:44,520 --> 02:20:47,879
But to be fair, as I sort of alluded to earlier,

2517
02:20:48,399 --> 02:20:51,520
Shaver's life actually sort of settles down. He I mentioned

2518
02:20:51,559 --> 02:20:54,040
the rocks. We should probably have mentioned this. He eventually

2519
02:20:54,559 --> 02:20:58,280
starts finding like pictures in rocks everywhere, which is a

2520
02:20:58,479 --> 02:21:03,360
whole other fascinating thing. But paranoid, yeah, which I mean,

2521
02:21:03,760 --> 02:21:08,559
as an archaeologist, people are constantly bringing to our office like, yes,

2522
02:21:08,760 --> 02:21:11,239
I found this, I found this, and like that's a rock,

2523
02:21:11,719 --> 02:21:13,239
and they're like, oh, but it's got this, like it's

2524
02:21:13,280 --> 02:21:14,760
a rock. And then at some point I just have

2525
02:21:14,879 --> 02:21:16,760
to I'm like, look, I'm sorry, I can't tell you anymore.

2526
02:21:17,280 --> 02:21:23,079
But here's a here's an excellent example. So Shaver and Palmer,

2527
02:21:24,239 --> 02:21:27,920
Shaver's life settled down and he kind of found a purpose,

2528
02:21:28,040 --> 02:21:30,280
and one could argue again sort of a certain therapy.

2529
02:21:30,600 --> 02:21:34,399
But here's one for you. The mon Talk project, where

2530
02:21:34,440 --> 02:21:37,319
you have these guys that clearly have stuff going on

2531
02:21:37,479 --> 02:21:41,319
with them, which gets which gets rationalized into well, they

2532
02:21:41,440 --> 02:21:43,840
have problems because of all the awful things that were

2533
02:21:43,879 --> 02:21:47,280
done to them in the caverns underground for a Shaverian,

2534
02:21:49,079 --> 02:21:53,760
which then not only develops a whole bunch of paranormal

2535
02:21:53,840 --> 02:21:57,360
war becomes the clear basis given that the show was

2536
02:21:57,399 --> 02:22:00,920
initially going to have the title mon Talk, Yeah of

2537
02:22:01,079 --> 02:22:06,200
Stranger Things Thanks, which becomes this gigantic thing and inspires

2538
02:22:06,200 --> 02:22:09,399
a whole bunch more based off of people that are

2539
02:22:09,799 --> 02:22:12,920
basically based off of like modern day Richard Shavers.

2540
02:22:13,799 --> 02:22:18,440
Speaker 2: And causes revitalization of Dungeons Dragons. Well, that's true.

2541
02:22:18,799 --> 02:22:23,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, the the Stranger Things Dungeons and Dragons set is

2542
02:22:23,040 --> 02:22:23,600
pretty sweet.

2543
02:22:24,000 --> 02:22:27,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have seen one and it is pretty nifty.

2544
02:22:27,760 --> 02:22:30,719
But yeah, no, this is this is a recurring theme,

2545
02:22:30,799 --> 02:22:34,200
Like I have I have long thought someone not me

2546
02:22:35,680 --> 02:22:39,239
needs to write an article about this kind of diad

2547
02:22:39,559 --> 02:22:44,399
of an a exploiter or whatever word you want to use,

2548
02:22:45,639 --> 02:22:50,840
and someone who has like clearly getting things that there's

2549
02:22:51,200 --> 02:22:54,159
there's some sort of mental health element and it's being

2550
02:22:54,360 --> 02:22:58,840
rewritten and repurposed. Benewitz is an example. Mon Talk's an example. Uh,

2551
02:22:59,159 --> 02:23:02,959
the Philadelphia Experiment falls in here. Oh yeah, and there

2552
02:23:03,000 --> 02:23:04,000
are there are others.

2553
02:23:04,120 --> 02:23:08,639
Speaker 6: Carlos Ayende, the Philadelphia Experience, Montak. I don't want to

2554
02:23:08,680 --> 02:23:11,799
talk about Montac. I think there will be a time

2555
02:23:11,840 --> 02:23:14,000
in the future when people will talk about Montak, but

2556
02:23:14,079 --> 02:23:15,440
now it's not the time to talk about it. But

2557
02:23:15,520 --> 02:23:19,959
with Carlos Sayende and in the Philadelphia Experiment, that was

2558
02:23:20,200 --> 02:23:26,559
just literally a very sick person who who had found

2559
02:23:26,600 --> 02:23:29,879
a hobby that people just decided to believe in. Like

2560
02:23:30,120 --> 02:23:33,360
he's a guy that just wrote crazy stuff in books

2561
02:23:33,959 --> 02:23:37,280
and people decided to adopt it as a and man

2562
02:23:38,120 --> 02:23:39,200
Philadelphia experiment.

2563
02:23:39,319 --> 02:23:41,280
Speaker 5: That is one of the ones I really want to believe.

2564
02:23:41,680 --> 02:23:42,920
I really want to believe it.

2565
02:23:43,040 --> 02:23:45,040
Speaker 6: I loved that movie as a kid. It was so

2566
02:23:45,399 --> 02:23:49,440
perfect and the mythology is so rich. I just want

2567
02:23:49,559 --> 02:23:51,120
that one to be true so badly.

2568
02:23:51,559 --> 02:23:54,799
Speaker 3: It's a it's a great iya. I mean Burlitz, you know,

2569
02:23:55,120 --> 02:23:57,559
he batted a thousand on that bring me the Triangle

2570
02:23:57,799 --> 02:24:01,319
Roswell Incident, Philadelphi experiment, you know, publishing that stuff in

2571
02:24:01,399 --> 02:24:05,920
the seventies. He had a very Palmrian like I for

2572
02:24:07,440 --> 02:24:09,920
inspired talent, if you want to put it that way.

2573
02:24:11,079 --> 02:24:13,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean the Eldridge story. I mean the Eldridge

2574
02:24:13,760 --> 02:24:16,440
is now the last time I looked into it, it

2575
02:24:16,520 --> 02:24:19,559
was a Greek shipping vessel. But I mean, none of

2576
02:24:19,600 --> 02:24:22,040
the story is true, and and Carl Allen was not

2577
02:24:22,159 --> 02:24:23,920
in any of the places he said he was in.

2578
02:24:24,719 --> 02:24:26,639
But it just it's just great and it and it

2579
02:24:26,760 --> 02:24:29,639
was so compelling that even the Office of Navy Intelligence

2580
02:24:29,680 --> 02:24:32,200
slipped into it like they got that thing and was like, look, man,

2581
02:24:32,280 --> 02:24:33,440
we need to take a look at this.

2582
02:24:33,959 --> 02:24:34,159
Speaker 2: Wow.

2583
02:24:34,239 --> 02:24:37,079
Speaker 3: Well, that that's a topic for a whole other discussion.

2584
02:24:37,399 --> 02:24:41,799
The the the reification or the not the ratification. The

2585
02:24:41,879 --> 02:24:45,360
ratification of of claims. When the government's like, oh, we'll

2586
02:24:45,360 --> 02:24:48,719
look into it, and it's like oh no, no, no, no, no,

2587
02:24:48,879 --> 02:24:53,639
no no, no, higher hire a freaking folklors higher anthropology use.

2588
02:24:53,639 --> 02:24:55,200
Speaker 2: As soon as they look into it, it gives it

2589
02:24:55,360 --> 02:24:56,239
just it gives it a.

2590
02:24:56,360 --> 02:24:58,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, governments look into it. There's gotta be something there.

2591
02:25:00,000 --> 02:25:03,479
Speaker 6: So I have to say this, like the volume of

2592
02:25:03,600 --> 02:25:06,639
crazy mail we get is you couldn't even conceive.

2593
02:25:06,760 --> 02:25:09,159
Speaker 5: But I don't even want to talk about how much

2594
02:25:09,239 --> 02:25:11,559
crazy mail we get at work.

2595
02:25:12,159 --> 02:25:14,360
Speaker 6: And but yet we still have to read it and

2596
02:25:14,520 --> 02:25:18,239
go mm hmm, there's nothing here, there's nothing here, there's

2597
02:25:18,239 --> 02:25:18,600
nothing here.

2598
02:25:18,680 --> 02:25:22,319
Speaker 5: Wait a minute, wait a minute, we better look into

2599
02:25:22,399 --> 02:25:22,920
this one.

2600
02:25:23,799 --> 02:25:26,159
Speaker 6: And as soon as you have to look do some

2601
02:25:26,280 --> 02:25:29,479
due diligence on something, it gives it a lot of legitimacy.

2602
02:25:29,680 --> 02:25:34,040
And then the whole world is suddenly on you, you know,

2603
02:25:34,239 --> 02:25:39,000
like flies on what flies go on, you know, and

2604
02:25:39,120 --> 02:25:41,239
that you know, the government is cognizant of that, Like

2605
02:25:41,399 --> 02:25:44,719
we tend to be fairly careful about our level of

2606
02:25:44,799 --> 02:25:47,920
exposure because again, we read this stuff, we understand this stuff,

2607
02:25:48,440 --> 02:25:50,840
and we know that as soon as we put our

2608
02:25:50,879 --> 02:25:53,360
eye on something that the world's eyes on it. So,

2609
02:25:55,639 --> 02:25:59,760
but people stumble onto stuff all the time that they

2610
02:26:00,000 --> 02:26:03,200
interpret incorrectly and and then write letters about I mean,

2611
02:26:03,280 --> 02:26:05,920
that's just reality. Yep, it's true.

2612
02:26:05,959 --> 02:26:09,520
Speaker 2: It's true. But uh uh, well, the thing is And

2613
02:26:09,600 --> 02:26:11,479
I realized we've kind of rambled all over the place

2614
02:26:11,559 --> 02:26:15,559
because but there's first of all, I knew we would,

2615
02:26:15,959 --> 02:26:20,719
and and second of all, it's because this story has

2616
02:26:20,959 --> 02:26:24,680
threads that go all over American weird culture. I mean

2617
02:26:24,840 --> 02:26:25,600
all over the place.

2618
02:26:25,879 --> 02:26:27,680
Speaker 5: And so I want to I want to ask you.

2619
02:26:27,719 --> 02:26:31,360
Speaker 6: A question, doctor Atlantis. Who is the monster in the

2620
02:26:32,399 --> 02:26:37,600
Shaver Mysteries story? Is it UFOs? Is it the Darrows?

2621
02:26:37,920 --> 02:26:40,120
Is it mental illness?

2622
02:26:40,239 --> 02:26:40,399
Speaker 3: Who?

2623
02:26:40,559 --> 02:26:41,959
Speaker 5: Who is the monster in this story?

2624
02:26:43,719 --> 02:26:43,920
Speaker 3: Well?

2625
02:26:44,600 --> 02:26:52,079
Speaker 2: I mean capitalism, the Americans, the American failed mental health system. Yeah,

2626
02:26:53,079 --> 02:26:53,520
how about that?

2627
02:26:54,520 --> 02:26:55,040
Speaker 5: How about that?

2628
02:26:55,440 --> 02:27:00,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? Uh the the if if America had a better

2629
02:27:01,000 --> 02:27:05,120
mill health care system, then instead of being imprisoned and

2630
02:27:05,280 --> 02:27:09,559
locked up and maltreated, then maybe Shaver would have gotten

2631
02:27:10,639 --> 02:27:14,159
some help that he desperately needed. Now, in a sense,

2632
02:27:14,440 --> 02:27:17,959
he got help and was able to make a living

2633
02:27:18,399 --> 02:27:22,200
because of Palmer. So in one sense, Palmer as a

2634
02:27:22,239 --> 02:27:29,959
person who really values testable reality, Palmer could be seen

2635
02:27:29,959 --> 02:27:35,760
as sort of a villain to me, exploitative, But everything

2636
02:27:36,200 --> 02:27:40,639
in my reading suggests that Shaver and Palmer did not

2637
02:27:41,000 --> 02:27:44,840
have a exploitative relationship. They had a friendship that just

2638
02:27:45,120 --> 02:27:47,520
was one that also led to them both relying on

2639
02:27:47,639 --> 02:27:49,559
each other to the point.

2640
02:27:49,399 --> 02:27:51,799
Speaker 6: That they seem to have moved very close to each

2641
02:27:51,840 --> 02:27:54,399
other at a point later, and they died in the

2642
02:27:54,479 --> 02:27:55,000
same year.

2643
02:27:56,200 --> 02:28:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think, you know, a lot of friendships

2644
02:28:02,079 --> 02:28:05,360
come and go, and there's was no exception. It had

2645
02:28:05,360 --> 02:28:09,760
its ups and downs. But I think Shaver really cared

2646
02:28:09,760 --> 02:28:11,920
about Palmer, and I think Palmer really cared about Shaver,

2647
02:28:13,639 --> 02:28:17,040
and I think it seemed like by the end of

2648
02:28:17,079 --> 02:28:22,280
his life, Richard was getting some pretty decent therapy through

2649
02:28:22,360 --> 02:28:25,280
his rock art. Even though it appeared to be nothing

2650
02:28:25,360 --> 02:28:29,200
more than paradolia, he was also able to take that

2651
02:28:29,399 --> 02:28:32,360
and make fairly impressive looking artwork.

2652
02:28:32,079 --> 02:28:34,840
Speaker 3: Out of it and to contextualize it. Yeah, you know,

2653
02:28:35,280 --> 02:28:40,559
there's a difference between I'm writing howling manuscripts about like

2654
02:28:40,760 --> 02:28:44,799
people being shredded under the earth by cannibals, and hey, look,

2655
02:28:45,079 --> 02:28:47,120
I know the mysteries of the universe through my rock art,

2656
02:28:47,719 --> 02:28:50,440
Like that's one is a lot healthier. So I mean,

2657
02:28:50,840 --> 02:28:54,280
I guess the conversation here, I still don't like Palmer.

2658
02:28:55,479 --> 02:28:58,840
I don't know if i'd call him the monster if

2659
02:28:58,920 --> 02:29:03,920
I had to actually sort of find a monster. I mean,

2660
02:29:03,959 --> 02:29:06,840
I said capitalism somewhat jokingly, but I think I would

2661
02:29:06,840 --> 02:29:11,680
elaborate and instead say this, this sort of attitude of like,

2662
02:29:12,000 --> 02:29:14,680
it's it's kind of fun, it's kind of true. Does

2663
02:29:14,719 --> 02:29:18,680
it really matter that that? Does it really matter? Attitude,

2664
02:29:18,760 --> 02:29:22,760
which absolutely Ray Palmer clearly had, yes, and so many

2665
02:29:22,840 --> 02:29:26,879
people after him have had. You know, when your smug

2666
02:29:27,000 --> 02:29:29,879
friend is like, oh, well, age and aliens, that's fun.

2667
02:29:29,959 --> 02:29:32,879
No one really believes that, And I'm like, yeah, actually

2668
02:29:32,959 --> 02:29:37,680
they do. They do. They absolutely do. That's the monster

2669
02:29:37,799 --> 02:29:38,520
whatever that is.

2670
02:29:39,000 --> 02:29:42,920
Speaker 2: No, I agree, I agree. So I want to say

2671
02:29:42,959 --> 02:29:46,719
though that Palmer, towards the end of his life we

2672
02:29:47,239 --> 02:29:49,159
started to talk about this before, and I cut you

2673
02:29:49,280 --> 02:29:51,760
off because I wanted to kind of hit it chronologically.

2674
02:29:52,479 --> 02:29:56,280
But he got involved in, first of all, some very

2675
02:29:56,399 --> 02:30:00,920
right wing politics. He got involved with supporting some people

2676
02:30:01,040 --> 02:30:05,360
who were let's say, Palmer himself tried to distance himself

2677
02:30:05,479 --> 02:30:08,440
from the anti semitism, but the people he was publishing

2678
02:30:08,520 --> 02:30:08,799
did not.

2679
02:30:09,479 --> 02:30:11,360
Speaker 3: And then he became a big fan of George Wallace.

2680
02:30:12,680 --> 02:30:16,639
Speaker 2: Yeah wow, Yeah, so making some really I would say,

2681
02:30:16,760 --> 02:30:18,120
poor political choices.

2682
02:30:18,639 --> 02:30:21,840
Speaker 3: It turns out if you write about hollow Earth ancient civilizations,

2683
02:30:21,840 --> 02:30:25,040
he turned into a hell of a racist aka also

2684
02:30:25,079 --> 02:30:26,399
a Lovecraft who knew.

2685
02:30:26,719 --> 02:30:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, except that you can see this today everywhere. But

2686
02:30:32,600 --> 02:30:38,000
Palmer also got in with this Giannini guy talking about

2687
02:30:38,200 --> 02:30:43,000
the hollow Earth again, this time talking about Admiral Byrd

2688
02:30:43,239 --> 02:30:45,239
and the Poles.

2689
02:30:45,399 --> 02:30:45,559
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2690
02:30:45,639 --> 02:30:49,399
Speaker 2: Some really weird I would say weird science. It's not

2691
02:30:49,479 --> 02:30:52,879
even science fantasy. But it's built on a sort of

2692
02:30:52,920 --> 02:30:56,920
a hoax around the idea that bird had actually gone

2693
02:30:57,079 --> 02:30:59,639
inside the hollow Earth and knew about it and there

2694
02:30:59,680 --> 02:31:02,760
was a governcover up. That was a fairly interesting story because,

2695
02:31:02,799 --> 02:31:03,280
as you were.

2696
02:31:03,239 --> 02:31:05,120
Speaker 3: Saying, this actually came.

2697
02:31:05,000 --> 02:31:09,760
Speaker 2: Out of uh sort of pro Nazis story. But I

2698
02:31:10,200 --> 02:31:14,239
do find that that that narrative around the Earth being

2699
02:31:14,319 --> 02:31:19,920
hollow is still out there. And oh yeah, it's not

2700
02:31:20,399 --> 02:31:22,719
going away. I mean it's it's I it's not as

2701
02:31:22,760 --> 02:31:23,959
prevalent as the flat earth.

2702
02:31:24,200 --> 02:31:26,799
Speaker 3: Okay, remember when the flat earth was a joke and yeah,

2703
02:31:26,920 --> 02:31:28,040
no one really believes that.

2704
02:31:28,520 --> 02:31:29,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, oh.

2705
02:31:29,760 --> 02:31:31,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is this.

2706
02:31:31,479 --> 02:31:34,360
Speaker 6: There is this concept in politics right now, and I'm

2707
02:31:34,399 --> 02:31:36,799
not going to make fun of anybody's politics, despite the

2708
02:31:36,879 --> 02:31:40,360
temptations that I have to do so that if you

2709
02:31:40,399 --> 02:31:45,040
are anti establishment, then you're right by default. I mean,

2710
02:31:45,239 --> 02:31:47,639
I'm as establishment as you can come. I believe in

2711
02:31:47,719 --> 02:31:50,079
the establishment. I believe in the idea that you work

2712
02:31:50,159 --> 02:31:54,159
your way into the establishment and then you you you

2713
02:31:54,360 --> 02:31:57,840
advance your agenda based on having earned a place.

2714
02:31:57,680 --> 02:31:58,319
Speaker 5: At the table.

2715
02:31:58,799 --> 02:32:01,040
Speaker 6: But a lot of people believe that, you know, the

2716
02:32:01,120 --> 02:32:05,120
whole idea of righteousness in politics comes from the fact

2717
02:32:05,159 --> 02:32:09,159
that you're the ultimate outsider. So anybody's who's anti establishment

2718
02:32:09,239 --> 02:32:12,479
by default as a hero. Maybe that's Julian Assange, maybe

2719
02:32:12,559 --> 02:32:14,920
that's Brad Manning, Chelsea Manning.

2720
02:32:15,000 --> 02:32:15,479
Speaker 4: I don't know.

2721
02:32:16,159 --> 02:32:19,200
Speaker 6: But the reality is is that there is this weird

2722
02:32:19,600 --> 02:32:24,200
contingent in American and European politics that if your anti establishment,

2723
02:32:24,280 --> 02:32:27,639
you're automatically valid. And I think you see a lot

2724
02:32:27,760 --> 02:32:31,000
of that emerging, especially in the fifties and sixties in

2725
02:32:31,120 --> 02:32:34,239
this kind of eufology in so Serrianism, where they the

2726
02:32:34,360 --> 02:32:38,440
fact that these people have an anti establishment voice automatically

2727
02:32:38,559 --> 02:32:42,200
grants them legitimacy. And what I'm seeing is a lot

2728
02:32:42,319 --> 02:32:47,680
of people adopting some super effing racist beliefs simply because

2729
02:32:47,719 --> 02:32:50,239
they're not part of the establishment right now.

2730
02:32:50,319 --> 02:32:53,719
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, I mean that I would absolutely agree.

2731
02:32:53,799 --> 02:32:57,639
And that's the turn we've taken, is oh, if it's

2732
02:32:57,719 --> 02:32:59,879
if you know. And again I mentioned Michael Barker. He

2733
02:33:00,079 --> 02:33:02,760
wrote Possible, in my opinion, the best book on this

2734
02:33:02,959 --> 02:33:05,239
back in two thousand and three or two thousand and two,

2735
02:33:05,920 --> 02:33:09,280
culture Conspiracy, whereas like it all gets thrown into the

2736
02:33:09,360 --> 02:33:13,200
gutter of rejected knowledge and once it's in there, you're

2737
02:33:13,600 --> 02:33:14,440
you're going to pick it up.

2738
02:33:14,799 --> 02:33:17,319
Speaker 6: Like there's a little more anti establishment belief than the

2739
02:33:17,399 --> 02:33:19,760
idea that the world is not freaking round.

2740
02:33:20,040 --> 02:33:23,399
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I don't know. I can't stop laughing

2741
02:33:23,399 --> 02:33:27,319
at but it the people who believe it. While they

2742
02:33:27,479 --> 02:33:29,760
may be basing that on the way that it drives

2743
02:33:29,840 --> 02:33:32,440
other people crazy, some of them are basing it on

2744
02:33:32,559 --> 02:33:35,799
the fact that they have bought into this conspiracy.

2745
02:33:35,319 --> 02:33:38,639
Speaker 3: That that No, I don't I there was a time

2746
02:33:38,719 --> 02:33:41,000
when it was there was there was an ironic component.

2747
02:33:41,159 --> 02:33:43,399
I don't think there's much of that left. And I

2748
02:33:43,559 --> 02:33:45,879
just want to say, and maybe this is why again

2749
02:33:46,000 --> 02:33:49,120
with the Shaver and well Palmer's really the issue why

2750
02:33:49,200 --> 02:33:51,079
this kind of really hit some bad buttons with me.

2751
02:33:51,719 --> 02:33:54,440
I haven't laughed about any of these topics in a

2752
02:33:54,520 --> 02:33:54,879
long No.

2753
02:33:55,000 --> 02:33:58,319
Speaker 5: They're not funny. Yeah funny, man.

2754
02:33:58,920 --> 02:34:01,120
Speaker 6: I mean this is like we are literally looking at

2755
02:34:01,159 --> 02:34:05,200
the birth of everything that created the decadent anti intellectual

2756
02:34:05,280 --> 02:34:09,280
culture that we're struggling with right now. Yes, and this

2757
02:34:09,360 --> 02:34:10,200
stuff's not funny.

2758
02:34:10,559 --> 02:34:14,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's important. But and this is sometimes where I

2759
02:34:14,840 --> 02:34:17,319
have a hard time with some people that do follow this,

2760
02:34:17,360 --> 02:34:18,959
where it's like, oh, well, you know, I'll follow this

2761
02:34:19,000 --> 02:34:23,280
because it's a music and laugh at the people's like, Okay,

2762
02:34:23,520 --> 02:34:27,959
here's your fiddle. There's a city of Rome. It's on fire.

2763
02:34:28,120 --> 02:34:29,479
If you haven't noticed it's on fire.

2764
02:34:30,159 --> 02:34:31,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I.

2765
02:34:31,399 --> 02:34:32,959
Speaker 5: Think you've been struggling.

2766
02:34:33,120 --> 02:34:36,239
Speaker 6: I can tell Jeb from the your comments with the

2767
02:34:36,319 --> 02:34:38,639
idea that studying this stuff is not important. I think

2768
02:34:38,719 --> 02:34:41,879
that this is the exact reason why it's important. If

2769
02:34:41,959 --> 02:34:45,239
we ignore the fact that people would rather believe some

2770
02:34:45,959 --> 02:34:51,760
convenient bullshit as opposed to reality, then our mission is

2771
02:34:51,799 --> 02:34:55,159
teachers and educators and scientists is just completely thrown out

2772
02:34:55,200 --> 02:34:55,639
the window.

2773
02:34:56,000 --> 02:34:58,920
Speaker 3: I know it's important, it's just I struggled for so

2774
02:34:59,079 --> 02:35:00,600
long to be like this is an important part of

2775
02:35:00,600 --> 02:35:02,479
our culture. Is like, oh, it's just nuts and cranks

2776
02:35:02,520 --> 02:35:02,959
and seeing.

2777
02:35:03,559 --> 02:35:06,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's missing the point and an.

2778
02:35:06,040 --> 02:35:09,559
Speaker 3: Origin point that sounds like that, I guess is just

2779
02:35:09,680 --> 02:35:12,399
more that. But no, it's it's far bigger and it's

2780
02:35:12,479 --> 02:35:14,559
far and it's far more important. And I think that's

2781
02:35:14,600 --> 02:35:18,479
why we have done a very long episode about this,

2782
02:35:19,200 --> 02:35:21,000
because it's like, wasn't that just a piece of history.

2783
02:35:21,000 --> 02:35:23,239
It's like, no, you don't get where we are today

2784
02:35:23,319 --> 02:35:27,120
without this. Yeah, Like this is super integral, and it's

2785
02:35:27,159 --> 02:35:29,600
super integral for the way it turned out, Like this

2786
02:35:29,760 --> 02:35:32,440
is one of those moments. I'm not saying to send

2787
02:35:32,520 --> 02:35:35,719
a terminator back to do something to Ray Palmer, but

2788
02:35:35,879 --> 02:35:38,159
this is one of those cases where like, if you

2789
02:35:38,239 --> 02:35:41,639
had paid Ray Palmer to go just write space opera,

2790
02:35:42,680 --> 02:35:45,159
the future would have turned out quite different.

2791
02:35:46,520 --> 02:35:48,959
Speaker 6: Yeah, And the fact that nobody even knows who the

2792
02:35:49,000 --> 02:35:52,840
guy is is to me especially compelling, Like we all know,

2793
02:35:53,399 --> 02:35:55,840
you know, l Ron Hubbard, but at the end of.

2794
02:35:55,840 --> 02:35:59,440
Speaker 3: The day, he's had far less, far less influence on western.

2795
02:35:59,239 --> 02:36:03,319
Speaker 6: Far in because he was such an obvious crank. Apologies

2796
02:36:03,399 --> 02:36:06,120
to the five scientologists that listen to this part.

2797
02:36:08,879 --> 02:36:14,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I doubt we have five, but but if you

2798
02:36:14,440 --> 02:36:16,600
are listening, I hope you're Thetan free good luck.

2799
02:36:16,760 --> 02:36:19,879
Speaker 5: Yes, theytan free since ninety three.

2800
02:36:20,760 --> 02:36:24,000
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Well, guys, is there anything else we

2801
02:36:24,079 --> 02:36:25,600
want to add? Because I feel like we've done a

2802
02:36:25,719 --> 02:36:28,840
really good job of covering what's a pretty difficult topic.

2803
02:36:30,360 --> 02:36:31,840
I know, I'm going to edit this a little bit.

2804
02:36:33,520 --> 02:36:33,760
Speaker 6: Blake.

2805
02:36:33,879 --> 02:36:36,760
Speaker 5: This is a very difficult topic because a part of

2806
02:36:36,879 --> 02:36:37,559
me wants.

2807
02:36:37,399 --> 02:36:40,159
Speaker 6: To just put on my party hat and you know,

2808
02:36:40,280 --> 02:36:42,959
drink a gallon of booze and ride through it as

2809
02:36:43,000 --> 02:36:46,200
a romp. But then, you know, I'm glad that Jeb

2810
02:36:46,399 --> 02:36:48,520
is here to anchor us in the reality that this

2811
02:36:48,600 --> 02:36:51,239
stuff is really like, this is the this is the

2812
02:36:51,360 --> 02:36:54,040
zeitgeist we're dealing with, and it was born out of

2813
02:36:55,600 --> 02:36:59,000
a poor man's inability to understand.

2814
02:36:58,600 --> 02:36:59,920
Speaker 5: What was going on inside his head.

2815
02:37:00,399 --> 02:37:00,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2816
02:37:01,200 --> 02:37:04,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I will say to balance that, twenty years ago,

2817
02:37:04,920 --> 02:37:07,840
when I really started to look into this more significantly,

2818
02:37:08,200 --> 02:37:10,239
I would have talked about Shaver. I remember this because

2819
02:37:10,239 --> 02:37:13,399
I talked about it in classes and things of like, oh, well,

2820
02:37:13,719 --> 02:37:16,239
it was this weird thinging. Yeah, it's a little questionable

2821
02:37:16,319 --> 02:37:19,239
because this guy probably had problems, but this other guy

2822
02:37:19,360 --> 02:37:22,760
sort of and now I'm like, oh, fuck this. And

2823
02:37:23,120 --> 02:37:25,680
and it's because I because of what has happened and

2824
02:37:26,040 --> 02:37:29,639
also seeing it's it's it's tendrils everywhere everything. So I

2825
02:37:30,040 --> 02:37:33,200
get I get that tendency because you're like, he's got

2826
02:37:33,360 --> 02:37:37,239
a dear girlfriend, not one he finds his deer. One

2827
02:37:37,319 --> 02:37:41,600
that's a frickin already adactyl that he's got mind control

2828
02:37:41,760 --> 02:37:44,319
raised under the earth. And there's an immediate like, oh

2829
02:37:44,399 --> 02:37:47,399
ha ha ha, that's funny. Look at that. You know,

2830
02:37:47,559 --> 02:37:49,760
Oh look it rained on the create on the Noah's

2831
02:37:49,840 --> 02:37:51,680
Ark and it got broke. Isn't that funny? You know

2832
02:37:52,280 --> 02:37:53,399
that that sort of thing.

2833
02:37:53,600 --> 02:37:57,200
Speaker 6: But yeah, I mean there's a we kind of talked

2834
02:37:57,200 --> 02:37:59,479
about it privately, but there's a documentary out right now

2835
02:37:59,559 --> 02:38:04,719
that's Reinventing the paranormal and it's straight out of the

2836
02:38:04,799 --> 02:38:05,639
Shaver or mysteries.

2837
02:38:05,879 --> 02:38:08,600
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And I mean we've we've talked about it.

2838
02:38:08,680 --> 02:38:10,239
I was just say that the hell your thing, it's

2839
02:38:10,360 --> 02:38:13,879
it's come up and and and you mentioned it earlier,

2840
02:38:14,120 --> 02:38:18,399
and it's it's out of a lot of things. I

2841
02:38:18,440 --> 02:38:20,440
don't think it's out of juth, actually I do. But

2842
02:38:21,680 --> 02:38:22,520
we'll leave that there.

2843
02:38:22,760 --> 02:38:24,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, death is not a planet, by the way, it's

2844
02:38:24,879 --> 02:38:27,639
a it's a dwarf planet. It's the dwarf planet.

2845
02:38:27,959 --> 02:38:31,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I think we covered everything. The only

2846
02:38:32,000 --> 02:38:35,040
thing I'll see was we didn't talk about Martin Gardner and.

2847
02:38:35,200 --> 02:38:39,280
Speaker 3: His uh sort of oh his his his his dissing

2848
02:38:39,360 --> 02:38:42,559
on on on Palmer from seeing him in the seventies. Yeah.

2849
02:38:43,440 --> 02:38:46,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know what, Palmer.

2850
02:38:46,840 --> 02:38:52,120
Speaker 3: Palmer does not need anyone to physically observe him to

2851
02:38:52,319 --> 02:38:56,559
tell you what he's about. He makes it amply obvious

2852
02:38:56,959 --> 02:38:57,920
what he is about.

2853
02:38:58,600 --> 02:38:58,840
Speaker 6: Like that.

2854
02:38:59,040 --> 02:39:02,879
Speaker 3: That's you know, I don't I saw that part and

2855
02:39:02,920 --> 02:39:04,360
I'm like, eh, whatever.

2856
02:39:04,760 --> 02:39:07,639
Speaker 5: I mean, I have a question to I know we've

2857
02:39:07,639 --> 02:39:09,760
been going a while, but I hope you guys don't

2858
02:39:09,799 --> 02:39:11,479
have to work tomorrow. But why.

2859
02:39:12,799 --> 02:39:15,399
Speaker 6: Why does it go to the Jews? I mean, you

2860
02:39:15,479 --> 02:39:17,600
don't have to put this in the episode, but Jeb,

2861
02:39:17,719 --> 02:39:20,639
how does it get there every fun time?

2862
02:39:20,840 --> 02:39:24,319
Speaker 3: Well, I'm okay with actually discussing this. I at one

2863
02:39:24,440 --> 02:39:27,799
point I would not have been able to answer that question.

2864
02:39:29,040 --> 02:39:33,719
I really do think as an archaeologist, there are not

2865
02:39:34,040 --> 02:39:36,440
everyone would agree with this, but especially an archaeologists that

2866
02:39:36,559 --> 02:39:40,079
works with certain I'm not gonna get into that. I

2867
02:39:40,159 --> 02:39:43,120
am a believer in the concept of deep tradition that

2868
02:39:43,559 --> 02:39:47,760
while there are huge changes, while there are transformations, that

2869
02:39:47,920 --> 02:39:53,399
you can look at certain traditions and see deep echoes

2870
02:39:53,559 --> 02:39:55,920
like the area where I am trained and I have

2871
02:39:56,000 --> 02:39:59,079
done most of my archaeology, meso America. Does it go

2872
02:39:59,239 --> 02:40:03,920
through huge changes over thousands of years? Yes? Can you

2873
02:40:04,040 --> 02:40:09,200
see core concepts at all mech sites in eleven hundred

2874
02:40:09,280 --> 02:40:14,639
BCE that you see in the Mashika Empire in the

2875
02:40:14,799 --> 02:40:17,600
in the fifteenth century? Is it the same? No? Are

2876
02:40:17,639 --> 02:40:23,159
there some connections, Yeah, there are. I would argue that

2877
02:40:23,319 --> 02:40:28,799
there is a deep myth, a deep tradition that emerges.

2878
02:40:29,399 --> 02:40:33,159
I don't know exactly when this is outside my abilities

2879
02:40:33,920 --> 02:40:39,239
of a it's clearly tied to I mean, and there's

2880
02:40:39,239 --> 02:40:41,200
other versions of this, but there's a specific one, a

2881
02:40:41,319 --> 02:40:47,319
specific one that's clearly tied to medieval Christianity. That is

2882
02:40:47,840 --> 02:40:52,840
that there are two enemies, that there are a decadent

2883
02:40:53,479 --> 02:41:01,799
urban anti christ enemy that starts off being identified with

2884
02:41:02,479 --> 02:41:09,079
Jews in Europe in league with a barbarian outside which

2885
02:41:09,280 --> 02:41:12,120
is pretty obviously the Turks and you know, and all

2886
02:41:12,159 --> 02:41:16,559
of that, and it starts with the pilgrims against Jews

2887
02:41:16,639 --> 02:41:20,280
in Europe in the medieval period. Then it transfers over

2888
02:41:20,399 --> 02:41:24,360
to the templars where they get the exact same, are

2889
02:41:24,680 --> 02:41:30,559
very similar accusations thrown at them that are thrown at

2890
02:41:30,920 --> 02:41:33,120
Jews before that, when they are thrown out of countries.

2891
02:41:33,799 --> 02:41:37,479
Then about a century and a half later, which panics

2892
02:41:38,120 --> 02:41:41,479
which had not happened before, but they're the exact saying, oh,

2893
02:41:41,600 --> 02:41:44,200
they don't meet in the Sabbah, they meet in the Sabbath.

2894
02:41:44,280 --> 02:41:50,040
It's very very different. And then that gets thrown onto

2895
02:41:51,079 --> 02:41:55,760
Illuminati and Masons and Catholics, and then it gets thrown

2896
02:41:55,840 --> 02:41:59,959
on onto Illuminati again. Uh, and then we get into

2897
02:41:59,959 --> 02:42:02,840
the Satanic panic, and then we get to Pizzagate and

2898
02:42:02,920 --> 02:42:06,680
QAnon right exactly. So I think it's I don't think

2899
02:42:06,760 --> 02:42:10,760
it's it's not one of these reinvent things. I think

2900
02:42:10,760 --> 02:42:13,159
there's an element of that. I used to like when

2901
02:42:13,159 --> 02:42:15,680
I started looking at witch trials, I'm like, oh, it's

2902
02:42:15,719 --> 02:42:17,520
what I call the crucible model. Well, when you get

2903
02:42:17,559 --> 02:42:20,760
in a certain kind of circumstance, these ideas like reinvent,

2904
02:42:20,840 --> 02:42:25,000
it's like the circumstances make them more palatable to more people,

2905
02:42:25,079 --> 02:42:28,159
make them more possible to be in the mainstream. The

2906
02:42:28,319 --> 02:42:32,360
idea is centuries old, so I think I think that's

2907
02:42:32,440 --> 02:42:35,000
why I think. I think these ideas are much older

2908
02:42:36,079 --> 02:42:40,120
and they get transformed. But the reason they're successful is

2909
02:42:40,159 --> 02:42:43,000
that they're digging into a thing that's already there.

2910
02:42:44,559 --> 02:42:48,360
Speaker 5: The enemy has a certain set of characteristics that.

2911
02:42:50,520 --> 02:42:53,440
Speaker 6: Translate over to the person who seeks to persecute the enemy,

2912
02:42:54,159 --> 02:42:57,159
and the hedgemon has to make itself into a victim.

2913
02:42:57,319 --> 02:43:01,840
I believe that's the case. The hedgemon in this case,

2914
02:43:01,920 --> 02:43:04,639
the white American male, has to be a victim in

2915
02:43:04,760 --> 02:43:07,239
order to engage in persecution. And that's a pattern that

2916
02:43:07,319 --> 02:43:10,639
has existed as long as humanity has been around.

2917
02:43:10,799 --> 02:43:12,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it's as

2918
02:43:12,600 --> 02:43:15,639
long as humanity. I don't know about that. It might be.

2919
02:43:16,120 --> 02:43:19,200
I would say, however, the fact that you have a

2920
02:43:19,399 --> 02:43:24,159
persecution narrative that goes back to the Roman Empire. Sure,

2921
02:43:24,399 --> 02:43:29,239
of course for the Abrahamic tradition, I think does actually

2922
02:43:29,280 --> 02:43:32,120
play into that. I think it's actually quite important there.

2923
02:43:32,120 --> 02:43:35,760
Whereas I can look at you know, say, Phuronic Egypt,

2924
02:43:35,959 --> 02:43:38,639
they don't feel that way. They're like, no, everything's yeah,

2925
02:43:38,680 --> 02:43:43,000
there's awful chaos monsters out there, but society is pretty solid.

2926
02:43:43,479 --> 02:43:47,360
Speaker 6: Well the Hicksaws or Aqunans, sure, yeah, but.

2927
02:43:47,399 --> 02:43:50,239
Speaker 3: Those are but those are weird periods. But but that,

2928
02:43:50,559 --> 02:43:53,120
but that's the thing whereas you get to everything that

2929
02:43:53,200 --> 02:43:57,479
comes after the Romans and the encounter with the Abrahamic religions,

2930
02:43:57,559 --> 02:44:00,239
I agree with that, and that is a very wrong

2931
02:44:00,360 --> 02:44:03,559
narrative in that tradition. And so I'm a believer in

2932
02:44:03,639 --> 02:44:08,079
deep traditions that yeah, they're because you're like, why on

2933
02:44:08,239 --> 02:44:11,159
earth are the protocols of the Elder of Zion showing

2934
02:44:11,280 --> 02:44:15,719
up in friggin Behold a Pale Horse? But the fact

2935
02:44:15,760 --> 02:44:18,639
that these are all basically just the same myth being

2936
02:44:18,760 --> 02:44:20,399
retold and retold and retold.

2937
02:44:21,040 --> 02:44:23,799
Speaker 6: I actually I want to highlight that. I don't know,

2938
02:44:24,000 --> 02:44:27,239
Jeff if Blake sent a petition to show, but Behold

2939
02:44:27,280 --> 02:44:30,639
a Pale Horse is the ultimate puffed Bible.

2940
02:44:31,680 --> 02:44:33,920
Speaker 5: Everything is in there. Oh yeah, all in there.

2941
02:44:34,079 --> 02:44:39,319
Speaker 6: It's one hundred percent the entirety of the paranormal linked

2942
02:44:39,399 --> 02:44:43,719
with conspiracy theory into one single document, and it has.

2943
02:44:43,760 --> 02:44:46,040
Speaker 3: Never been out of print, and it has never done poorly.

2944
02:44:46,639 --> 02:44:48,799
Speaker 6: It's not a bad book. It's not a bad read.

2945
02:44:49,000 --> 02:44:52,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Bill, Bill Cooper long Beyond the Grave

2946
02:44:52,879 --> 02:44:55,680
has has can you know he's he's one of those prophets.

2947
02:44:55,879 --> 02:45:00,239
I would argue that he's not quite keel, but he's

2948
02:45:00,319 --> 02:45:02,000
one of those profits that well he's not.

2949
02:45:02,120 --> 02:45:03,399
Speaker 5: Only a profit, he's a martyr.

2950
02:45:03,799 --> 02:45:04,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there you go.

2951
02:45:05,559 --> 02:45:07,319
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, if you're not going to pay your taxes

2952
02:45:07,360 --> 02:45:09,280
and you're going to get shot by the government, what

2953
02:45:09,479 --> 02:45:10,879
better way to prove your point.

2954
02:45:11,120 --> 02:45:12,760
Speaker 3: Make sure you do it right around two thousand and

2955
02:45:12,840 --> 02:45:13,159
one too.

2956
02:45:13,239 --> 02:45:19,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Bill Cooper annoys me. Although I think you've

2957
02:45:19,360 --> 02:45:25,399
you've fairly well convinced me that my first UFO documentation

2958
02:45:25,600 --> 02:45:27,840
that I saw in the wild outside of a UFO

2959
02:45:27,920 --> 02:45:31,719
book was probably Horse Well, it was probably the Cooper

2960
02:45:32,719 --> 02:45:35,760
documents around that with the alien types and stuff. Yeah

2961
02:45:35,920 --> 02:45:38,520
so yeah, uh yeah, it's very peculiar.

2962
02:45:39,079 --> 02:45:39,280
Speaker 6: Said.

2963
02:45:39,360 --> 02:45:43,520
Speaker 3: This actually turned out more coherent than I was expecting.

2964
02:45:43,600 --> 02:45:45,399
Speaker 2: I think, good, good.

2965
02:45:45,719 --> 02:45:46,200
Speaker 3: I like this.

2966
02:45:46,360 --> 02:45:48,479
Speaker 2: I mean, uh, I was going to add one more

2967
02:45:48,479 --> 02:45:53,239
thing about the anti Semitism stuff. I mean, Palmer was

2968
02:45:53,399 --> 02:46:01,280
working for years with Shaver doing stories where their secret

2969
02:46:01,360 --> 02:46:07,399
influence their secret controllers, and then in his life for

2970
02:46:07,600 --> 02:46:10,680
years he's working for Ziff Davis.

2971
02:46:11,239 --> 02:46:13,319
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, so he's.

2972
02:46:14,879 --> 02:46:16,840
Speaker 2: Not able to do all the things he wants to

2973
02:46:16,920 --> 02:46:19,799
do because the people who were in charge are Jewish,

2974
02:46:20,799 --> 02:46:22,559
right and not letting him do what he wants to do.

2975
02:46:23,520 --> 02:46:27,040
And whether he consciously resented that or not, it would

2976
02:46:27,079 --> 02:46:28,280
be an easy step.

2977
02:46:29,040 --> 02:46:32,760
Speaker 6: Well exactly. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. In

2978
02:46:32,840 --> 02:46:37,000
the West, secret masters are always jewsed like, that's just

2979
02:46:37,159 --> 02:46:40,000
part of the tradition, and I think in this case

2980
02:46:40,040 --> 02:46:44,520
it was very concretized. I mean, you know, God like,

2981
02:46:44,719 --> 02:46:48,399
that's just the way we interpret it. And it's regardless

2982
02:46:48,440 --> 02:46:51,360
of politics. The left and the right in America in

2983
02:46:51,399 --> 02:46:56,040
twenty nineteen have the same problem with Jews as they

2984
02:46:56,120 --> 02:46:56,600
ever had it.

2985
02:46:56,959 --> 02:47:00,399
Speaker 3: Well, and the beauty of it is is that because

2986
02:47:00,399 --> 02:47:04,840
it's it's this very specific like urban elite idea. It's like,

2987
02:47:05,159 --> 02:47:07,600
oh yeah, most of them are, but well that one's not.

2988
02:47:07,799 --> 02:47:10,600
But he's like them, you know, you know this this

2989
02:47:10,840 --> 02:47:13,959
this the coast you know, the coastal elite. The uh

2990
02:47:14,760 --> 02:47:16,520
you know. No, and and I don't even think that's

2991
02:47:16,639 --> 02:47:18,479
a code at this point. I think it's more just

2992
02:47:19,639 --> 02:47:23,079
being generous with numbers, if if if that makes if,

2993
02:47:23,159 --> 02:47:25,959
that makes sense, But no, I think it's a historical myth.

2994
02:47:26,159 --> 02:47:28,840
I I really think that I wrestled that for a

2995
02:47:28,959 --> 02:47:31,239
long time, like why does it always go back there?

2996
02:47:31,959 --> 02:47:34,159
And I think it's ultimately these ideas are a lot

2997
02:47:34,239 --> 02:47:35,440
more powerful on this than we think.

2998
02:47:35,559 --> 02:47:39,040
Speaker 6: It is integrated into the DNA of Western politics. Yeah,

2999
02:47:39,360 --> 02:47:41,639
it's at it's at the fundamental level.

3000
02:47:41,840 --> 02:47:43,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it literally goes back to the medieval

3001
02:47:43,760 --> 02:47:45,280
period at least.

3002
02:47:47,079 --> 02:47:51,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, so the real monster was man all along?

3003
02:47:51,760 --> 02:47:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, monster, you've been listening to Monster Talk, the science

3004
02:47:57,040 --> 02:47:59,920
show about monsters. I'm Blake Smith, and you just heard

3005
02:48:00,079 --> 02:48:02,040
part two of our coverage of the Shaver Mysteries with

3006
02:48:02,159 --> 02:48:05,520
doctors Jerry Drag and Jeb Cart. There are a lot

3007
02:48:05,840 --> 02:48:07,479
of links in the show notes if you want to

3008
02:48:07,559 --> 02:48:09,959
dive deeper into the Hollow Earth and the Shaver mysteries.

3009
02:48:10,319 --> 02:48:12,559
I've received a lot of interesting links to a variety

3010
02:48:12,600 --> 02:48:15,920
of fictional properties that directly or indirectly build them this mythology.

3011
02:48:16,200 --> 02:48:18,239
I didn't try to include them all in the show notes,

3012
02:48:18,559 --> 02:48:20,799
but there are plenty of them, and the numbers growing.

3013
02:48:21,200 --> 02:48:23,479
When the Hollow Earth material showed up in the Godzilla

3014
02:48:23,600 --> 02:48:26,280
King of the Monsters movie, I was the only one

3015
02:48:26,319 --> 02:48:29,000
in the theater cackling madly. I may have spent too

3016
02:48:29,159 --> 02:48:31,479
much time on this topic for my own good health,

3017
02:48:31,840 --> 02:48:33,879
but I hope that you all enjoyed the fruits of

3018
02:48:33,959 --> 02:48:38,639
this effort. Monster Talk theme music is by Peach Stealing Monkeys.

3019
02:48:39,120 --> 02:48:41,399
No Darrows or Tarots were harmed in the making of

3020
02:48:41,479 --> 02:49:33,200
this episode. This has been a Monster House presentation that

3021
02:49:33,280 --> 02:49:36,639
could split these folks into fashion people into factions. Should

3022
02:49:36,680 --> 02:49:41,479
not surpell that would split folks into factions in a

3023
02:49:41,559 --> 02:49:45,680
world where people non canonical fan fiction fiction?

3024
02:49:46,639 --> 02:49:49,520
Speaker 1: Uh, because I really should.

3025
02:49:49,319 --> 02:49:52,440
Speaker 2: Not even be saying this, you know, Honestly, I'm just

3026
02:49:52,719 --> 02:49:55,959
having trouble here and probably was responsible for much of

3027
02:49:56,000 --> 02:49:59,760
the theist to the tech jargon that was that was

3028
02:50:00,159 --> 02:50:02,879
into his competitive ah well basket.

3029
02:50:04,239 --> 02:50:10,680
Speaker 1: We already recovered, not that in fantasy it's