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Speaker 8: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 8: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 8: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 8: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 8: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 8: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening.
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Speaker 9: The Smartest Way to Hire Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy,
Speaker 9: Jeffrey Dahmer. The names of a notorious serial killers are
Speaker 9: usually well known. They echo in the news and in
Speaker 9: public consciousness, but most people have never heard of Israel Keys,
Speaker 9: one of the most ambitious and terrifying serial killers in
Speaker 9: modern history. The FBI considered his behavior unprecedented. Described by
Speaker 9: a prose prosecutor as a force of pure evil, Keys
Speaker 9: was a predator who struck all over the United States.
Speaker 9: He buried kill kits, cash weapons, and body disposal tools
Speaker 9: in remote locations across the country. Over the course of
Speaker 9: fourteen years. Keys would fly to a city, rent a car,
Speaker 9: and drive thousands of miles in order to use his kits.
Speaker 9: He would break into a stranger's house, abduct his victims
Speaker 9: in broad daylight, and kill and dispose of them in
Speaker 9: mere hours, and then he would return home to Alaska,
Speaker 9: resuming life as a quiet, reliable construction worker devoted to
Speaker 9: his only daughter. When journalist Moumene Callahan first heard about
Speaker 9: Israel Keys twenty twelve, she was captivated by how a
Speaker 9: killer of this magnitude could go undetected by law enforcement
Speaker 9: for over a decade, and so began a project that
Speaker 9: consumed her for the next several years, uncovering the true
Speaker 9: story behind how the FBI ultimately caught Israel Keys, and
Speaker 9: trying to understand what it means for a killer like
Speaker 9: Keys to exist, a killer who left the path of monstrous,
Speaker 9: randomly committed crimes in his wake, many of which remain
Speaker 9: unsolved to this day. American Predator is the ambitious culmination
Speaker 9: of years of interviews with key figures in law enforcement
Speaker 9: and in Key's life, and research uncovered from classified FBI files.
Speaker 9: Callahan takes us on a journey into the chilling, nightmarish
Speaker 9: mind of a relentless killer and to the limitations of
Speaker 9: traditional law enforcement. The book they were featuring this evening
Speaker 9: is American Predator, The Hunt for the most meticulous serial
Speaker 9: killer of the twenty first century, With my special guest,
Speaker 9: journalist and author Maureen Callahan. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 9: thank you very much for greening this interview. Maureen Callahan, Hi,
Speaker 9: thank you so much for having me. Thank you so
Speaker 9: much for joining us on this program. This is going
Speaker 9: to be an incredible interview about a truly incredible book
Speaker 9: about a truly incredible serial killer. We just mention it
Speaker 9: in the opening. Tell us how you came to learn
Speaker 9: about this case and why it was important for you
Speaker 9: to write this book. Tell us about that decision.
Speaker 7: Well, I first came across this case in early December
Speaker 7: twenty twelve. It was an article about a serial killer
Speaker 7: the likes of which d FBI had never seen before.
Speaker 7: I got to the second paragraph, which detailed e modus
Speaker 7: operandi that was so astonishing and sophisticated yet simple. I
Speaker 7: called Israel Keys an analog killer in a digital age,
Speaker 7: which helped him evade capture for at least fourteen years,
Speaker 7: if not longer. The mo was as you described in
Speaker 7: your introduction, and I'm certainly happy to delve deeper into that.
Speaker 7: But the other thing that made it clear that this
Speaker 7: was a story that needed to be dug into and
Speaker 7: really explored was the admission that the FBI had kept
Speaker 7: this individual existence secret from the American public for the
Speaker 7: nine months that they had had him in custody, and
Speaker 7: given that his killing spree extended all over the United States,
Speaker 7: that seemed not in the public interest. And so that
Speaker 7: was going to be at at least one mystery to explore.
Speaker 7: But it was clear that there would be multiple mysteries
Speaker 7: to explore. And as I researched and reported year after year,
Speaker 7: I just I could never have expected the things that
Speaker 7: I discovered.
Speaker 9: Yeah, certainly, absolutely. Now you start American Predator with a
Speaker 9: victim named Samantha Konig, which is eighteen years old, and
Speaker 9: she's working at this little coffee shack we call a kiosk.
Speaker 9: This is February two thousand and twelve. Tell us about
Speaker 9: the Samantha Koenig and why she's working, and tell us
Speaker 9: about this kiosk and this business and what happens that night.
Speaker 7: So the evening of February first, twenty twelve, an eighteen
Speaker 7: year old girl named Samantha Koenig is closing up her
Speaker 7: coffee kiosk, the kiosk where she worked in Anchorage, Alaska.
Speaker 7: One of the things to know is that in Anchorage,
Speaker 7: these coffee kiosks are extremely common. They're like little shacks
Speaker 7: almost they have but the sides of roads. Samantha's was
Speaker 7: right next to a very well trafficked road and sat
Speaker 7: in a parking lot right near a big box gym.
Speaker 7: The other thing to know is that the culture and
Speaker 7: anchorage is such that these teenage girls are often working
Speaker 7: these kiosks alone. Samantha disappears that night. The next morning,
Speaker 7: she's reported missing. The next morning when the next young
Speaker 7: woman comes in to open the kiosk, which has been locked,
Speaker 7: but she sees that all of the cash and the
Speaker 7: register is missing. It's a little bit messy in there.
Speaker 7: Samantha is a meat freak. She is known to clean
Speaker 7: up meticulously. The evening before, however, her boyfriend had received
Speaker 7: text messages from Samantha's phone in which she indicated that
Speaker 7: she was very upset with him. She knew exactly what
Speaker 7: he had been up to, and she was taking off
Speaker 7: for a few days with some of her friends. So initially,
Speaker 7: law enforcement is looking at this as a potential runaway scenario.
Speaker 7: It's compounded by Samantha's history. She had an unstable upbringing.
Speaker 7: She had had her own issues with substances. They didn't
Speaker 7: law enforcement didn't look at well. They made several mistakes,
Speaker 7: one of which is they never taped off that scene.
Speaker 7: They didn't treat it as a crime scene. They sort
Speaker 7: of made their assumptions, and so that kiosk and its
Speaker 7: surrounding areas were contaminated. They did not get a look
Speaker 7: at the surveillance video from inside the kiosk until later
Speaker 7: that evening, so it's almost twenty four hours. And once
Speaker 7: they do, they see a figure outside ordering a coffee,
Speaker 7: a man who looks to be tall. A few minutes
Speaker 7: go by, and suddenly he leaps in through the kiosk's window.
Speaker 7: And when I say leap, and you can see the
Speaker 7: surveillance video online, he barks his body like a cheetah
Speaker 7: and he pounces in there. What confound investigators is that
Speaker 7: they spend another eleven minutes in that kiosk before leaving.
Speaker 7: So one of them, in particular, a very very seasoned investigator,
Speaker 7: is thinking to himself, these two are in there for
Speaker 7: seventeen minutes, what on earth could they possibly be talking about.
Speaker 7: The next theory becomes the accomplished theory that Samantha is
Speaker 7: in on her disappearance with an unknown own individual for
Speaker 7: money later, as weeks go by, and a ransom note
Speaker 7: is discovered which contained the photo of Samantha made up, hair,
Speaker 7: braided eyes wide open, facing the camera, a newspaper a
Speaker 7: proof of life photo a newspaper dated weeks after her disappearance.
Speaker 7: The investigators are again confounded. All but one of them
Speaker 7: thinks that Samantha is alive. The FBI at this point
Speaker 7: is involved, and they bring in an expert in snuff films.
Speaker 7: That expert cannot tell and it's not until Samantha's ATM
Speaker 7: card begins pinging in the lower forty eight. The FBI
Speaker 7: now has a tracker on it that a man named
Speaker 7: Israel Keys is arrested on the side of the road
Speaker 7: in Texas, and in his car they find Samantha's ATM
Speaker 7: card and her cell phones. Israel Keys previously unknown to
Speaker 7: law enforcement in any capacity, and he's arrested and he's
Speaker 7: not talking.
Speaker 9: You talk about the arrest of Israel Keys, but you
Speaker 9: introduce very crucial characters in this story, and that being
Speaker 9: FBI agent FBI Steve Pain, And you talk about the
Speaker 9: lead detective in this in Anchorage Police Department, this Monique Doll.
Speaker 9: You interestingly write about how Steve Pain gets involved with this,
Speaker 9: wants to be involved with this, but of course the
Speaker 9: jurisdiction and the ego involved with who's going to handle what?
Speaker 9: Tell us a little bit about this dynamic and introduce
Speaker 9: Steve Pain and this investigation and the team involved in
Speaker 9: that investory.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So initially the case is handled by the Anchorage
Speaker 7: Police Department APD because it's designated a missing person's Mickey Dahl.
Speaker 7: That's how she's known. Her full name is Monique Dahal
Speaker 7: was a detective who was brand new to homicide. She
Speaker 7: was first day and her superior thought that this would
Speaker 7: be a good case to field train a rookie. She
Speaker 7: came from Dea, she had ten years experience there, so
Speaker 7: she's lead on this case. But in Anchorage, everyone knows
Speaker 7: everyone else. It's a big city that feels like a
Speaker 7: small town. So law enforcement, prosecutors, defense attorneys, judges, they
Speaker 7: all know each other. And Payne at his FBI field
Speaker 7: office gets a call from a friend of his telling
Speaker 7: him about this missing girl and he immediately wants to
Speaker 7: get involved and the word back is no, thank you,
Speaker 7: We think we know what this is. Later that afternoon,
Speaker 7: was there around five six Payne gets a call from
Speaker 7: Mickey Dong and she tells him some things have changed,
Speaker 7: can you come over? So he gets in his car
Speaker 7: and he races over to APD and it's the surveillance video.
Speaker 7: Kanan is looking at it, Doll is looking at it,
Speaker 7: and just well, he's the investigator who had the seventeen
Speaker 7: minute theory. He's an amazingly multi faceted, multi talented investigator.
Speaker 7: He's the US Marshals, he's swat he's got FBI clearance,
Speaker 7: he's worked drugs, he's seen and done it all and
Speaker 7: is relatively young by the way, I mean, this is
Speaker 7: how talented this guy is. And he's got eyes on
Speaker 7: the video too now. And so they are all beginning
Speaker 7: to work together, and yet there is there is a
Speaker 7: clashing of I don't know if I would call it egos,
Speaker 7: but it's definitely a power struggle. Jean's got all the
Speaker 7: resources of the FBI at his disposal to help with
Speaker 7: this case. Nicky dolls on it for less than twenty
Speaker 7: four hours. She's a woman, she feels this is her
Speaker 7: case and she does not want the FBI bigfooting her.
Speaker 7: Jeff Bell is kind of caught in the middle he's
Speaker 7: sort of a peacemaker and always looking to mediate. He
Speaker 7: can always see both sides. What's interesting is the team
Speaker 7: really comes together once that atm card begins pinging in
Speaker 7: the Southwest. It's important to realize that at this point,
Speaker 7: Samantha has been missing for five weeks, six weeks, So
Speaker 7: the more time that goes by, the more that they're thinking,
Speaker 7: you know, Samantha is not going to have a good
Speaker 7: outcome here. And what they now need to rely on
Speaker 7: all the way up in Anchorage is a coordinated multi
Speaker 7: jurisdictional effort among law enforcements, people that they do not
Speaker 7: know and who may not feel the urgency of this
Speaker 7: case because who they're being asked to chase. Their subject
Speaker 7: is in a white male, Paul athletics, middle aged. He
Speaker 7: is driving the most commonly rented car in the United
Speaker 7: States of America. They can't pinpoint his location, he's moving
Speaker 7: too far, too fast. Find him somehow, and it's the
Speaker 7: Texas Rangers, and in particular a ranger named Steve Rayburn
Speaker 7: and a corporal named Brian Henry, who take this vague
Speaker 7: information and they consolidate it and the hand Rayburn is
Speaker 7: handwalking it to everyone. He can look for this vehicle.
Speaker 7: Let's canvas. Particularly hotel, the area in which the ATM
Speaker 7: card is being used seems to be, you know, more
Speaker 7: and more concentrated. One of the analysts on this case
Speaker 7: called it nesting. The subject was nesting. And they put
Speaker 7: eyes on a rental vehicle that's parked in a complex
Speaker 7: that has three hotels, so he's talking hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 7: of rooms, and they look at where this cars parked.
Speaker 7: One of the investigators looks up and they see a
Speaker 7: white male two stories above on a balcony looking directly
Speaker 7: down at that car, and they put eyes on him,
Speaker 7: and they follow this car, and Henry is two cars
Speaker 7: behind this guy as he's heading toward Route fifty nine
Speaker 7: like he's about to get away, and he's he can't,
Speaker 7: he can't pull him over. He has no reason, and
Speaker 7: he's getting he's getting orders from Rayburn over the radio.
Speaker 7: Find a reason, find a reason to pull him over.
Speaker 7: And he pulls out his radar gun and this vehicle
Speaker 7: goes two miles over the speed limit. He puts on
Speaker 7: his lights and to his amazement, this rental car pulls
Speaker 7: over to the side of the road, and when he
Speaker 7: approaches the car and he says, where are you from?
Speaker 7: And the man says Alaska. The way Henry described it,
Speaker 7: his heart stops because his twenty years in law enforcement,
Speaker 7: he had never pulled over anyone from the state of Alaska.
Speaker 7: And right then they knew, what.
Speaker 9: Do they find in his possession? Regarding that ATM card?
Speaker 9: What else do they find in that Vehicle's.
Speaker 7: Very interesting because by now, so Rayburn comes on the
Speaker 7: scene and with him is an FBI field agent, Special
Speaker 7: Agent deb Ganaway. So they come on the scene and
Speaker 7: Ganaway immediately calls Steve Rayburn. Sorry, Steve's pain in Anchorage.
Speaker 7: She says, listen, we've pulled over a suspect in your case.
Speaker 7: And Paine says, what do you have on him? What
Speaker 7: do you have to pull him over? And she says
Speaker 7: not a lot. Now this flags for pain because he's
Speaker 7: worried about fruit as a poison tree. Right if they
Speaker 7: after a search that's unwarranted, no matter what they find
Speaker 7: in his possession, can get thrown out and keys can walk.
Speaker 7: Danaway says to him, listen, I want you to understand
Speaker 7: you should know something. In Texas we have an exemption
Speaker 7: and if we think that there is probable cause to
Speaker 7: search someone's vehicle. We can do it. And Pain really
Speaker 7: thinks about this hard for a moment, and then he says,
Speaker 7: I don't want you to cut this guy loose without
Speaker 7: searching that car. And it doesn't matter to me how
Speaker 7: you do it. It's highly unusual for him. He's ad
Speaker 7: buy the book guy. So they searched Keys's car and
Speaker 7: side they find immediately like just eyeballing the car down
Speaker 7: and way suspicious because she sees folded up maps in
Speaker 7: the front seat. She sees rolled up hash with that
Speaker 7: die packs has exploded. This guy clearly has been robbing banks.
Speaker 7: He's got little girls paraphernalia in the back seat. They
Speaker 7: open up the trunk. The trunk is this weird treasure
Speaker 7: trove of like booze and pornography, and there's sea masks
Speaker 7: and there's headlamps, and then they find Samantha's cell phone
Speaker 7: and it's broken apart and the batteries out.
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Speaker 7: He won't say anything, and raver In turns to Corporal
Speaker 7: Henry because he wants him to have the honors of
Speaker 7: bringing him into custody, and he says, hook him up
Speaker 7: and they handcuff him and they take him into custody,
Speaker 7: and in his wallet they find Samantha's ATM card with
Speaker 7: her access code scratched into the face of it, and
Speaker 7: they say, do you want to tell us what you're
Speaker 7: doing with this? And he says, I'm not telling you
Speaker 7: or anything. Within minutes of his arrest, up an Anchorage,
Speaker 7: Jeff Bell and Mickey Dahl are getting on a plane
Speaker 7: to fly to Texas. And they get down there, and
Speaker 7: it takes a long time to fly out of Anchorage
Speaker 7: to anywhere in the lower forty eight. There's no such
Speaker 7: thing as a direct plight. You have to stop in
Speaker 7: Seattle and you have to lay over. So they get
Speaker 7: there and they're exhausted, and they're hungry and they're tired,
Speaker 7: and they are in the most high pressure interrogation they've
Speaker 7: ever been in. And Belle gets into the room and
Speaker 7: the way he described it to me, he said, the
Speaker 7: hair's on my back stood up, like on the back
Speaker 7: of my neck. They stood up. He was like, it
Speaker 7: was a feeling of pure evil. And I knew that
Speaker 7: he had Samantha, and I knew that she was dead,
Speaker 7: and I knew that he had done this before and
Speaker 7: so now their priority to get keys onto a story,
Speaker 7: any story doesn't matter. That get him to admit some connections.
Speaker 7: So Mickey Dahal takes the lead and she says, I
Speaker 7: don't think that you're a monster. I think you had
Speaker 7: a reason for what happened, and I want to hear
Speaker 7: it from you. And he comes in Hawes, but when
Speaker 7: he's really confronted with the ATM card and the cell phone,
Speaker 7: he says, oh, now I know how I'm involved in this,
Speaker 7: and that's when the investigators starts revving up. They're like, okay,
Speaker 7: here comes a story. And Key says that he's a contractor,
Speaker 7: which they must know by now, and he had a
Speaker 7: client who owed him money couldn't pay, and he found
Speaker 7: the ATM card and the cell phone in a baggie
Speaker 7: on his driver's seat that must have been slipped in
Speaker 7: through a cracked window because they must know. Also he
Speaker 7: smokes cigars. They searched his car, and that was the
Speaker 7: long and the short of it. And he otherwise does
Speaker 7: not know Samantha Koenig and has not heard that she's disappeared,
Speaker 7: and can't help them. He will not say anything else,
Speaker 7: and Pine is back in Alaska, drawing up the strongest
Speaker 7: federal indictment he can, which is only fraud with access device.
Speaker 7: That's all they've got him on that ATM card. He
Speaker 7: needs to get Keys back to at they can get
Speaker 7: a full confession, and they get him back to Alaska.
Speaker 7: It takes a couple of weeks. In that time. By
Speaker 7: the way that extradition process, there is an unexplored ye
Speaker 7: stop which I only obtained through citing with the federal
Speaker 7: government and at one point suing the federal prosecutor in
Speaker 7: the case for a lot of things that they were
Speaker 7: hiding regarding this case. They have an unexplained stop in
Speaker 7: Oklahoma City, which I can circle back to later if
Speaker 7: you like. But they get Keys into this room finally
Speaker 7: in Alaska, and Steve Pain and Jeff Bell are war
Speaker 7: gaming out how they are going to get a full
Speaker 7: confession out of Keys when they have a serious dearth
Speaker 7: of evidence. Because if Keys sticks to this story, as
Speaker 7: atlandish as it is and as clear of a lie
Speaker 7: as it is, he's gonna walk. They don't have anything else,
Speaker 7: and they need to figure out a way leverage this
Speaker 7: dearth of evidence into a full confession. And Pain explained
Speaker 7: his approach to me, which was there are a fair
Speaker 7: amount of investigators who like to take in a bunch
Speaker 7: of props still come into a.
Speaker 10: Room with stacks of folders and boxes and say this
Speaker 10: is everything we've got on you, and in fact those
Speaker 10: boxes are empty and the paper is blank. And Pane
Speaker 10: prefers a counterintuitive approach. He's a minimalist and he likes
Speaker 10: to go in with really almost nothing and say listen,
Speaker 10: I'm not going to tell you everything that we have
Speaker 10: on you, and he finds that that almost always works.
Speaker 7: So Pain and beller are were gaming this out and
Speaker 7: the last minute they get a call from the federal
Speaker 7: prosecutor has been assigned to this case, and to their horror,
Speaker 7: he has another idea. And if you want to talk
Speaker 7: about a clash of egos, his idea is that he,
Speaker 7: an individual with no experience with violent crime and who
Speaker 7: has no business in that room, is going to lead
Speaker 7: the interrogation of Israel Kief and there's no fighting this.
Speaker 7: For some reason, Cane and bell politically felt they had
Speaker 7: to fall in line and they had to teach this
Speaker 7: guy really fast as best they could how to sit
Speaker 7: across from a hardened criminal who has clearly done this
Speaker 7: before a predator who can no doubt mel fear have
Speaker 7: a sixth sense for it, and teach him how to
Speaker 7: go in that room with almost nothing and get this
Speaker 7: guy to tell everything. And that confession is another thing
Speaker 7: that the government has kept hidden all these years. I
Speaker 7: was able to obtain it through asource to which is
Speaker 7: to remain anonymous. And you know, those parties involved would
Speaker 7: probably say, Hey, the reason that that confession has been
Speaker 7: kept secret all these years is because the details of
Speaker 7: what was done to Samantha are too gruesome for public consumption,
Speaker 7: to which I say, those details are easily redacted. Those
Speaker 7: are actually really not the salient parts of the concession.
Speaker 7: The salient parts of the concession are how this concession
Speaker 7: was elicited. It is a masterclass because not only does
Speaker 7: Steve Payne rest control artfully away from Kevin Pelvis, the prosecutor,
Speaker 7: who is bundling it less and right. I mean, at
Speaker 7: one point he admits practically the Israel Keys that the
Speaker 7: team recovering evidence from his residence took the wrong shed
Speaker 7: in which he had had Samantha for four weeks. But
Speaker 7: the person who really comes in and saves it, and
Speaker 7: at Israel Keys's request, is none other than Mickey Dahl.
Speaker 7: He says, you want to know everything. I want to
Speaker 7: talk to Mickey Dahl, and she comes in the next
Speaker 7: day and she really delivers a masterclass in how you
Speaker 7: interrogate a suspect and get him to tell you everything
Speaker 7: you need to know in order to put him away.
Speaker 7: But what also comes out of that interrogation is an
Speaker 7: astonishing admission where Keith says to them, I have a
Speaker 7: lot more stories to tell, and someone in that room says,
Speaker 7: to him, you know it's after he also says he
Speaker 7: wants to take control back in some way, as so
Speaker 7: many of these guys do, and he says to them,
Speaker 7: there is nobody who knows me or who has ever
Speaker 7: known me, who knows anything about me. Really, I am
Speaker 7: two different people, basically, And someone in that room says,
Speaker 7: how long have you been to different people? And Keith
Speaker 7: chuckled and he said a long time, fourteen years yea.
Speaker 7: And so now they know Dave've got to get another confession,
Speaker 7: and they've got to get another confession fast because they
Speaker 7: need to know exactly who they're dealing with. And the
Speaker 7: FBI special agents in this case go directly to Quantico
Speaker 7: and they go to the top criminal profilers and they say,
Speaker 7: please listen in, tell us what you think, give us
Speaker 7: some guideline, some chips so we can leverage more information
Speaker 7: out of him. And they're pretty quickly told, we don't
Speaker 7: know what to tell you. We have never seen one
Speaker 7: like this before.
Speaker 9: You write about the FBI suggesting that they look at
Speaker 9: the everything that Israel Keys had looked at in terms
Speaker 9: of fiction and nonfiction, especially in true crime. What did
Speaker 9: the FBI want to determine from that and what did
Speaker 9: they determine from looking at all of that material.
Speaker 7: Part of it was they wanted to determine how he
Speaker 7: had created this singular, unprecedented modus operandi, which involved by
Speaker 7: one way plane tickets into major hubs, renting a car,
Speaker 7: driving hundreds or thousands of miles, burrying up one of
Speaker 7: unknown kill kits he stashed all over the United States.
Speaker 7: These kill kits were five gallon home depot buckets that
Speaker 7: Keith had filled with stunned ammos, zip ties hash from
Speaker 7: bank robberies he had previously committed along with Durno, which
Speaker 7: he realized accelerated human decompositions. He would then go on
Speaker 7: the hunts, and he would hunt for anyone. Unlike most
Speaker 7: serial killers who have a definite victim profile, and I
Speaker 7: point as an example to his hero Ted Bundy, who
Speaker 7: went after young white women with long, straight hair parted
Speaker 7: down the middle. Keys would go after anyone young, old, black,
Speaker 7: white male female fit overweight, alone in a couple, traveling
Speaker 7: in a pair. He was a craven opportunist when it
Speaker 7: came to his hunts and his kills. He came described
Speaker 7: him as a true ambush predator. He would jump out
Speaker 7: of nowhere, lightning fast, and take someone and move them
Speaker 7: to another location, or two people to another location, rake,
Speaker 7: torture and kill them, move the remains to yet another location,
Speaker 7: presperably across the state line, dispose of those remain so
Speaker 7: expertly that he left no trace of DNA behind and
Speaker 7: immediately put hundreds, if not thousands of miles between himself
Speaker 7: and that crime scene. And by the way, from the
Speaker 7: moment he boarded that first plane out of anchored Alaska,
Speaker 7: he has now turned off his cell phone, ripped out
Speaker 7: the battery, and is only using cash he has, as
Speaker 7: he calls it gone dark, making it really impossible to
Speaker 7: link him to any missing person or cold case in
Speaker 7: the country. So the FBI, aside from that monumental task,
Speaker 7: is identifying and locating other victims over a fourteen year span.
Speaker 7: It's not longer because you are dealing with the ultimate
Speaker 7: unreliable narrator. Wants to see how Keith has sort of
Speaker 7: cooked this up, so they execute a search of the
Speaker 7: house he's shared with his girlfriend, who is a travel nurse,
Speaker 7: and he's' ten year old daughter, to whom he is,
Speaker 7: by all accounts, extremely devoted. They find fiction such as
Speaker 7: Dean Kutz's Intensity, a novel that is told from the
Speaker 7: dueling perspective of a serial killer and his latest victim.
Speaker 7: They find films they find, to their great surprise, books
Speaker 7: written by FBI profilers, And they asked him about this,
Speaker 7: and he says, the first time I realized I was
Speaker 7: not the only person liked this was when I was
Speaker 7: fourteen years old and I read Mind Hunter by John Douglas.
Speaker 7: John Douglas, who is, I'm sure you know, one of
Speaker 7: the top one of the most legendary criminal profilers in
Speaker 7: the bureau. He also told them he read Dark Dreams
Speaker 7: by Roy Hazelwood, an equally legendary profiler who passed away
Speaker 7: not too long ago. But who I was lucky enough
Speaker 7: to talk to while I was writing this book about Keys,
Speaker 7: and Hazelwood's book was a revelation. I mean, Keys would
Speaker 7: rattle off these titled and you know, Jeff Bell had
Speaker 7: never heard of dark dreams. Someone else on the team
Speaker 7: had never heard his dark dreams. I mean they would
Speaker 7: run out and get these books. They would watch the
Speaker 7: movies the Keys watched. They would if they had assembled
Speaker 7: these little libraries. They had their own personal philibigoing. And
Speaker 7: what was revelatory about Hazelwood's book was that he was
Speaker 7: really the first to put to paper a taxonomy of
Speaker 7: the lust driven serial murder and the traits that they
Speaker 7: had in common, one of which, to everyone's surprise, was
Speaker 7: compulsive driving. Definitely a trade key shirt. I mean this
Speaker 7: guy drove. You know, the mileage he put on rental
Speaker 7: cars was unbelievable. And at one point in the investigation,
Speaker 7: you know, Jeff Bell is trying to game out how
Speaker 7: many states Keys could have traveled to on like a
Speaker 7: four day trip to Texas based on the mileage he
Speaker 7: put on his rental car alone. And he's I described
Speaker 7: the scene in the book, He's using string and a
Speaker 7: compass and a map of the United States and some tacks.
Speaker 7: And after he's packed everything together and put his circles together,
Speaker 7: he steps back and he looks at the map and
Speaker 7: he says to himself, this is unbelievable. He is realized
Speaker 7: that he's drawn circles around thirteen states.
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Speaker 7: So he tells them that with Hagelwood's book, even though
Speaker 7: he really brecked his originality and did, in his way
Speaker 7: want to be recognized for it, he did borrow one
Speaker 7: fantasy that is particularly horrifying that had been related to
Speaker 7: Hazelwood by another killer who had been caught, another Sperial murderer,
Speaker 7: and this involved staking out a dessert in a country
Speaker 7: road late at night, pitch black, honkering down with a rifle,
Speaker 7: waiting for a loan driver to pass by, shooting out
Speaker 7: a tire, waiting for that car to flow to its
Speaker 7: inevitable call and stop, and then coming up behind and
Speaker 7: taking that driver. And he said that that was a
Speaker 7: fantasy he had just yet to get to. So they
Speaker 7: are learning, to their horror that a monster like he's
Speaker 7: is in part being built by them.
Speaker 9: What is the agreement that he has with this team
Speaker 9: of investigators does? What are his demands regarding the press
Speaker 9: and his family, and do they honor those requests? Tell
Speaker 9: us about this agreement.
Speaker 7: So Keys makes several demands at the outset. He says,
Speaker 7: I want the death penalty, and I want it. Fact,
Speaker 7: I do not want to be sitting in a supermax
Speaker 7: for the rest of my life while my case gets
Speaker 7: litigated in court, while anti death penalty lawyers or groups
Speaker 7: protests my execution. I don't want any of it. I
Speaker 7: know there's no jury in this country that wouldn't convict me,
Speaker 7: let alone give me the death penalty. So get it
Speaker 7: for me. And Kes knows that DC is listening in.
Speaker 7: He knows the Quantico is listening in. He knows the
Speaker 7: Department of Justice is listening in. He's very very savvy,
Speaker 7: despite by the way, having zero formal education and being
Speaker 7: raised up in the woods by off the Greger parents,
Speaker 7: who hates the federal government. He knows how everything works.
Speaker 7: He said, So if you do this for me, if
Speaker 7: you wrap this case up within a year and get
Speaker 7: me that death penalty agreement, I'll give you the names
Speaker 7: and locations of all my victims. He also tells them
Speaker 7: he does not want them talking to his family. He
Speaker 7: wants them leaving his girlfriend alone. He wants his daughter
Speaker 7: completely insulated from all of it, and he wants his
Speaker 7: mother and his siblings don't go near them. He says, well,
Speaker 7: if my mother wants to talk, actually talk to her.
Speaker 7: But the siblings, nine of them, he's got all over
Speaker 7: the country. And the FBI accedes to this demand, and
Speaker 7: it's kind of incredible because you know, they're not pushing
Speaker 7: very hard with the siblings at all. And then the
Speaker 7: third demand is, I want you to keep my name
Speaker 7: out of the press. I don't want anybody knowing about me.
Speaker 7: His stated reason was he wanted to his daughter, but
Speaker 7: the real reason was probably he just didn't want the
Speaker 7: attention wrong with the lots. There are things that they
Speaker 7: do that they for all their depravity and the extreme
Speaker 7: psychopathy they know are are shameful. And he wanted to
Speaker 7: continue operating in the shadows, and he wanted to exert control.
Speaker 7: And you know, the FBI tried to accede to all
Speaker 7: of this. And at one point there's a reporter in
Speaker 7: Vermont who somehow links Israel Keys to the disappearance in
Speaker 7: twenty eleven of a middle aged suburban couple from their
Speaker 7: home in the middle of the night, and that case
Speaker 7: was cold from the get go. Nobody had any clue
Speaker 7: what happened to these people. It wasn't until Israel Keys
Speaker 7: confessed to taking them and killing them. And by the way,
Speaker 7: that the account he gave the FBI was so extraordinary
Speaker 7: they didn't even believe it at first. And his name
Speaker 7: broke in Vermont, and he found out about it because
Speaker 7: other demands he had where he wanted access to the
Speaker 7: New York Times, he wanted access to the Internet, he
Speaker 7: wanted access to cigars he liked. I mean, he was
Speaker 7: the most high value suspect that Alaska had ever had
Speaker 7: in custody, and they had to figure out a way
Speaker 7: to take him outside so he could smoke his cigars.
Speaker 7: Once his name breaks, he's pissed. He says, I'm not
Speaker 7: talking to you anymore. And the case stalls for three
Speaker 7: months because he just won't talk to them and he's
Speaker 7: basically showing them whose boss, and it's it's it's it's
Speaker 7: quite humbling and at that point they really have nothing
Speaker 7: else to do but but and and wait and hope
Speaker 7: that they can get him talking again.
Speaker 9: What do they find out about his family life? They
Speaker 9: want to look into that background, he said, stay away
Speaker 9: from the siblings. But what do they find out despite
Speaker 9: that about his background and possibly some reason for this aberration.
Speaker 7: Well it's interesting because the agent who was sort of
Speaker 7: passed with that and who really took it on because
Speaker 7: she most uh probably more than anyone else, was intrigued
Speaker 7: by that, Jolene Godin. You know. She she told me
Speaker 7: that the minute he said stay away from my family,
Speaker 7: that she lasered in on that. Well, that's everything she
Speaker 7: wants to know about right there. One of the most
Speaker 7: important things that investigators were able to get was a
Speaker 7: court ordered psychological evaluation, because he's one of the death
Speaker 7: penalties so badly he needed to be ruled sane as
Speaker 7: fast as possible, and so that psycho val happens really fast.
Speaker 7: And that, by the way, was another thing that I
Speaker 7: had to do the Federal Prosecutor's office for they kept
Speaker 7: that hidden since twenty twelve, along with thirteen hours of
Speaker 7: interrogations with keys that they had never logged anywhere. Their
Speaker 7: existence was unknown, and I was able to figure out
Speaker 7: that they existed because I had been talking to these
Speaker 7: agents for so long. So I obtained those things only
Speaker 7: last May, and I felt reading the psychoval the way
Speaker 7: that Joline Goden must have felt, which was that it
Speaker 7: was a mother load the greatest self report that we
Speaker 7: had of Israel Keys's upbringing to date. So he was
Speaker 7: born in Utah to Heidi and Jeff Keyes. He's raised
Speaker 7: as one of ten. He is the second oldest and
Speaker 7: the oldest boy. When Israel and his older sister America
Speaker 7: are either four and two or about six and four,
Speaker 7: Heidi and Jeff uproot the family from Utah to a
Speaker 7: remote corner of Washington State called Calville. And they do
Speaker 7: that because the neighbors are getting very suspicious about the
Speaker 7: welfare of the toddler children, who they never see outside.
Speaker 7: Heidi goes on to have seven more children. They're all
Speaker 7: home births. The children never get a birth certificate, they
Speaker 7: never get a Social Security number, they never see a doctor.
Speaker 7: They are raised outdoors for seven years while Jeff builds
Speaker 7: a cabin by hand. They live in tents. The food
Speaker 7: they eat they either grow it or they hunt it.
Speaker 7: By the time Israel is ten, you knows how to
Speaker 7: shoot to kill at a dress game out of cook it.
Speaker 7: They are servants off the gritters. They load and distress.
Speaker 7: The federal government of the United States they're always sure
Speaker 7: from this point on to pretty much live near a
Speaker 7: border where they can get to Canada quickly. They join
Speaker 7: a church, a white supremacist church called the Arc, where
Speaker 7: Israel befriends two brothers named Chevy and Shane Kehoe, who
Speaker 7: will later go on in the nineties to become among
Speaker 7: the FBI's ten most Wanted. One of the key Oh
Speaker 7: brothers later implicates the other as a co conspirator with
Speaker 7: Timothy mcveay in the Oklahoma City bombing, and in fact,
Speaker 7: when Keith is demanding the death penalty and the agents
Speaker 7: and prosecutors are trying to tell him that that is
Speaker 7: impossible to get that fast, he says, that's a lie.
Speaker 7: Timothy mcveay demanded the same thing, and he got it
Speaker 7: really fast. And a lot of people I grew up with,
Speaker 7: by the way, regard Timothy McVay as a hero. By
Speaker 7: the time he's is fourteen, he is starting fires. He's
Speaker 7: breaking and entering into neighbors' houses, sometimes simply just rearranging
Speaker 7: the furniture so that he can walk watch them return
Speaker 7: home from a little bit away and experienced their fear
Speaker 7: that someone's been in their home. He is not just
Speaker 7: stealing guns and buying guns. At fourteen, by the way,
Speaker 7: he looks like a grown man. He's really tall, actually
Speaker 7: as early as twelve now that I think about it,
Speaker 7: but he's learning how to build guns. At sixteen, he
Speaker 7: tells his mother he wants to live by himself, and
Speaker 7: he handbuilds the cabin in less than a year. That
Speaker 7: took seven less than a year. He hand built the cabins.
Speaker 7: He has also begun to manifest the text book signs
Speaker 7: of not just psychopathy, but the extreme psychopathy that indicates
Speaker 7: a future serial killer. He has taken his sister's catt
Speaker 7: into the woods with some friends and described tying that
Speaker 7: cat to a tree and shooting it in the stomach
Speaker 7: and watching that cat run around frantically and vomit and
Speaker 7: suffer and die a horrible death. And he's watching it
Speaker 7: and he's laughing, and he looks over at another one
Speaker 7: of the kids there, and that kid has turned around
Speaker 7: and it's puking his guts out in terror and fear.
Speaker 7: And he says, that's pretty much the last time anyone
Speaker 7: went out into the woods with me. And he said
Speaker 7: he told the in the Psychological Evaluator as a psychologist
Speaker 7: that he was pretty sure his parents knew about that,
Speaker 7: that one of the kids had told his parents, and
Speaker 7: the parents had gone to Jeff and Heidi. Now I
Speaker 7: interviewed Heidi I like for this book, and to my knowledge,
Speaker 7: she never spoken to a reporter, since she certainly had
Speaker 7: never spoken to one before. She told me she had
Speaker 7: no recall of that incident. The only incident she had
Speaker 7: recall of was her and Jeff discovering a cash of
Speaker 7: guns in Israel's cabin and thinking that at that point
Speaker 7: he really needed to move back home with them, But
Speaker 7: it was far too late by then, because Keith had
Speaker 7: told investigators that by age fourteen, and again I'm going
Speaker 7: to say it's earlier than that, he has figured out
Speaker 7: that he was really good at sitting in the woods,
Speaker 7: deep in the woods alone still four hours and watching
Speaker 7: people and having the epiphany that not only would it
Speaker 7: be easy enough for him to take someone and no
Speaker 7: one would ever know so, that he absolutely could do
Speaker 7: this and get away with it.
Speaker 9: What about his stay in the military was a goal
Speaker 9: of his? Was he a good soldier? And what characterized
Speaker 9: his stay in the military. He didn't see any combat.
Speaker 9: You write tell us about what others thought of him
Speaker 9: and how he interacted with those other soldiers.
Speaker 7: Israel Keys's stay in the military. It's such a crucial
Speaker 7: part of this story, and so much of it remains unknown.
Speaker 7: What we do know and what I was able to
Speaker 7: uncover indicates that there is much more that we should
Speaker 7: certainly be made privy to. So if we start at
Speaker 7: the beginning, Israel Keys again, an individual who has no
Speaker 7: birth certificate nor social Security number walks into a recruitment
Speaker 7: office by his own account and is allowed to enlist
Speaker 7: in the United States Army. Yeah. I asked the Army
Speaker 7: if this was remotely possible, and they said absolutely not.
Speaker 7: So that's a mystery.
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Speaker 7: The FBI interviewed many of the men he served with,
Speaker 7: including his commanding officer. I had filed for his military file,
Speaker 7: and I got a scant few pages, the only page
Speaker 7: of interest being the fairly recent discovery of a human
Speaker 7: skull at Joint baith Lewis McCord, where Keith has been stationed,
Speaker 7: and clearly indicating that they needed to look at Keys
Speaker 7: for that. But here one all of these soldiers and
Speaker 7: his commanding officer described Keys as outstanding, as singular as
Speaker 7: a super soldier. One describes him as having carried one
Speaker 7: hundred and fifty pounds on his back four miles without swinching.
Speaker 7: One described him handmaking what's known as the Jill suit.
Speaker 7: And these are the suits worn by snipers. They sort
Speaker 7: of look like Bigfoot when they're done because they are
Speaker 7: extensively designed to camouflage you in any environment. But snipers
Speaker 7: in the Army are issued their Jial suits, and they're
Speaker 7: made by experts. And somehow Keys not only knew how
Speaker 7: to build one himself, but had permission to. It's never
Speaker 7: on record that he was trained as a sniper. He also,
Speaker 7: and this was a surprise to me, not just underwent,
Speaker 7: but easily past Army ranger training. That is a grueling, grueling,
Speaker 7: excruciating method that the Army really uses to flush out.
Speaker 7: Most people can't hack it. So he's now we know,
Speaker 7: has had Special Forces training of some kind. I also
Speaker 7: uncovered in these previously filed documents that he had gone
Speaker 7: down to Panama at one point for training that remains unknown.
Speaker 7: He told the FBI at a later point in this
Speaker 7: investigation that as a fourteen year old he knew how
Speaker 7: to build explosives. He was building bombs. He has had
Speaker 7: told someone he served with that at property he owned
Speaker 7: in upstate New York, even back then we're talking ninety
Speaker 7: eight ninety nine, he had buried nine thousand rounds of
Speaker 7: Black Talent ammunition on that property. Black Talents are the
Speaker 7: outlawed so called cop killer boards. At that point in
Speaker 7: this case, the FBI, again this has never been reported
Speaker 7: and they've never explained why redesignate. They reclassify the Israel
Speaker 7: Keys case. It is now no longer serial murder, it's terrorism.
Speaker 7: And they deployed bomb squads on either side of the country,
Speaker 7: one to his house and anchorage and one to the
Speaker 7: property in Upstate New York, and they have never said
Speaker 7: what they recovered. They have never said what they know
Speaker 7: Israel Keys had ever done or what he was planning
Speaker 7: to do.
Speaker 9: Let's get back to the interrogation of Israel Keys. It's fascinating.
Speaker 9: You take us right into that interrogation room. You say
Speaker 9: that there's officers monitoring it, You've got chronicle on the
Speaker 9: phone being able to wade in, and then you have
Speaker 9: those people in the room. But you have this prosecutor
Speaker 9: Felldus with State Pain biting his nails. He gets lucky
Speaker 9: in this gets very very fortunate, as you right, because
Speaker 9: things could have went a lot differently given the strategy
Speaker 9: that he employed versus this strategy that the FBI and
Speaker 9: Steve Pain and others would have employed. Tell us a
Speaker 9: little bit about that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you know, Kevin Solds is approached. And you
Speaker 7: can hear some of these tapes they're online, But the
Speaker 7: really needy ones, the ones where you see how this
Speaker 7: interrogation could have gone sideways, and why I think it's
Speaker 7: so important to hear, especially for anyone who's studying for
Speaker 7: a career in law enforcement or as a federal prosecutor,
Speaker 7: or as the sense attorney. These are really they're so
Speaker 7: enlightening because Soelvis is approached is almost one that's informed
Speaker 7: by what you would see in a movie or a
Speaker 7: television procedural, you know, where it's the interrogator comes in
Speaker 7: full of like kissing vinegar and like Dave's got all
Speaker 7: the control, and you're just like gumbbags that they're going
Speaker 7: to nail to the wall. So you may as well
Speaker 7: just tell me. And Paine goes in with far more humility,
Speaker 7: and the way he described his approach to me was
Speaker 7: he says, I like in that very first interrogation with
Speaker 7: a suspect as telling an author his own story. And
Speaker 7: you know, of course it's only the author who knows
Speaker 7: how this story ends. So Paine and Belle are kind
Speaker 7: of being guardian angels as Felovis is sort of stuggling along,
Speaker 7: and they're trying to also figure out in what way
Speaker 7: Key's is going to be most common stable telling this narrative.
Speaker 7: And it becomes apparent that Keys is much more comfortable
Speaker 7: working backward, working with timelines and logistics and where he
Speaker 7: was when, rather than getting right into how he took Samantha,
Speaker 7: what he might have done with her and at one
Speaker 7: point Keys is walking himself up to giving the details
Speaker 7: of that night and what he did to Samantha. And
Speaker 7: they needed these details crucially because they had so little
Speaker 7: physical evidence linking Keys to Samantha, and if at any
Speaker 7: point Keys recanted his concession or wanted to throw in
Speaker 7: like an unnamed accomplice to the mix, they would be screwed.
Speaker 7: So they needed details that they could then very quickly corroborate.
Speaker 7: And at that point he says, I'll give you these details,
Speaker 7: but there are too many people in this room. There
Speaker 7: needs to be fewer people in this room. And immediately
Speaker 7: Steve Kane is thinking, okay, fine, like who would I
Speaker 7: leave in this room? And he goes and in his
Speaker 7: mind he's going, Jeff. Jeff is the best interrogator on
Speaker 7: this team. Jane has an ego that is strong enough
Speaker 7: to admit his strengths and weaknesses. So it would be
Speaker 7: Bell and it would be uh, he's's defense attorney Rich Kurtner,
Speaker 7: and that would be it with him. That would be fine.
Speaker 7: And Feldis immediately goes, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa whoa? Wait
Speaker 7: wait wait wait wait, let's let's let's let's hit the
Speaker 7: poup button on that you know, I mean, only you
Speaker 7: know the details you're gonna tell us is real, So
Speaker 7: why don't why don't you just start telling us? And
Speaker 7: Gave is really adamant. He's like, there are too many
Speaker 7: people in here, and and Pain is like dying as
Speaker 7: like Feladus is like gripping his table with like white fingertips,
Speaker 7: like he's not leaving that room. He wants to be
Speaker 7: in that room. They're beginning to realize this is a
Speaker 7: case that could be a starmaker, you know, and Pain
Speaker 7: is thinking to himself, you know, I don't care what
Speaker 7: this guy's motivations are. I don't care if he needs
Speaker 7: some form of cosmetic privacy. I don't care what it is,
Speaker 7: or if he really feels this ashamed of what he's
Speaker 7: done that he needs like for people in the room.
Speaker 7: I need those details. We need those details. And Peladouce
Speaker 7: won't relent. And this is when like Keith pushes his
Speaker 7: leverage back and he says, I'll give you all the
Speaker 7: details you want, but I want to talk to the lady.
Speaker 7: Detective what's her name? What's her name again? And they
Speaker 7: say Mickey, Mickey Dall and he says, yeah, I want
Speaker 7: to talk to her, and Pelvis is like, well, why
Speaker 7: you know, and he says, that's the way I want it.
Speaker 7: And in those moments, Paine and Bell are realizing that
Speaker 7: Keys is putting this together. He's already put it together,
Speaker 7: that Peldus has no idea what he's doing. Why go
Speaker 7: holds all the cards in that room right now? It's
Speaker 7: real Keys, you know. And Pelvis had sort of misunderstood
Speaker 7: this dynamics from the outset. You know, he thought, as
Speaker 7: the federal prosecutor who had decided to run lead run
Speaker 7: point on this interrogation, that he was the most powerful
Speaker 7: person in the room. But no, Israel Keys was the
Speaker 7: most powerful person in that room.
Speaker 9: When he went to ask questions Feldus and when Israel
Speaker 9: didn't like those questions. He also said that he would
Speaker 9: provide information, but not the bodies. He would give them
Speaker 9: some information, but they would have to figure out the bodies,
Speaker 9: and then he would confirm that he did kill that body.
Speaker 9: Tell us just a little bit about that incredible condition
Speaker 9: that he put forth.
Speaker 7: Well, that consequence came about as a result of another
Speaker 7: stumbol by the team. And I felt this in particular,
Speaker 7: when they had some of the cards still, and he
Speaker 7: was just agitating, get me the death penalty, Get me
Speaker 7: the death penalty. The one thing pain and Bell could
Speaker 7: say to him was listen, one victim is not going
Speaker 7: to get you that. You want it fast like, you
Speaker 7: got to give us something else. And after some deliberation
Speaker 7: and back and forth, he says, Okay, I'll give you
Speaker 7: two bodies, two bodies in a name.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 7: So this is three victims in one week, which really
Speaker 7: is remarkable progress. And he gives them the couriers and
Speaker 7: tells them this incredible story of winding up in Vermont
Speaker 7: on a road trip on his way to visit brothers
Speaker 7: in Maine. Stops there, dug up the kill Kiss and
Speaker 7: it's staying at like a local budget in and starts
Speaker 7: walking around town that night, and it's raining. It's about
Speaker 7: eight o'clock. He's sticking out a parking lot. He's looking
Speaker 7: for a guy. This evening. His fantasy this evening involves
Speaker 7: a guy, and he sees a yellow VW bug full
Speaker 7: into the parking lot. It's an apartment complex, and he
Speaker 7: watches as this guy gets out of the car and
Speaker 7: puts a newspaper over his head and keys starts following him,
Speaker 7: and he's getting closer and closer and closer, and his
Speaker 7: keys describes it. He's arcing out his arm to grab
Speaker 7: the guy by the back, and the guy breaks into
Speaker 7: a sprint to get out of the rain, and he
Speaker 7: runs and he says, that guy almost got it that night.
Speaker 7: If that guy had been five seconds flower, he would
Speaker 7: have been the one. And so now he's got to
Speaker 7: look for something else and someone else, and he shifts
Speaker 7: his fantasy to a couple, and he lets a few
Speaker 7: hours go by in his hotel room, and he goes
Speaker 7: back out, and now it's about midnight and he's walking
Speaker 7: around town. And a few minutes later he finds himself
Speaker 7: dinnering at a house on a suburban street. And this
Speaker 7: is a middle class neighborhood. This is a single story
Speaker 7: ranch house. He's a contractor. He looks at it and
Speaker 7: he figures out the layout. He knows exactly what it
Speaker 7: looks like inside. He starts prowling around the backyard. He
Speaker 7: sees an above ground pool, he sees a grill. He
Speaker 7: sees no evidence of pets or small children. He has
Speaker 7: previously told the investigators one thing I won't do is
Speaker 7: mess with kids, which is a remarkably self serving from
Speaker 7: first speial killer. To make it's another one too, another
Speaker 7: indicator that he's borrowing from his predecessors, both real and fictional,
Speaker 7: because that's a reference to the fictional serial killer Dexter,
Speaker 7: you know, the serial killer with a code with a
Speaker 7: moral code.
Speaker 9: Right, yeah, right.
Speaker 7: He had told them that after his daughter was born,
Speaker 7: something in him shifted profoundly. But that statement, even if
Speaker 7: you were to believe it, which I do, not, indicated
Speaker 7: that before his daughter was born he had gone after children.
Speaker 7: But anyway, he's just looking for a couple with really
Speaker 7: no other impediments to getting to them, and he creeps
Speaker 7: around the house. He cuts the phone line, realizes there's
Speaker 7: no alarm system them, they have no outdoor floodlights. They've
Speaker 7: got air conditioners that are in unit. You know, you
Speaker 7: shove them in the window. He can get he can
Speaker 7: gain access, So he does that through their garage, gets
Speaker 7: in their car, finds a woman's driver's license, and he
Speaker 7: sees that there are a lot of tools in that garage. Okay,
Speaker 7: this is the wants a man and a woman breaks
Speaker 7: them through the kitchen door, tells them it takes him
Speaker 7: six seconds flat to get from the kitchen to their bedroom,
Speaker 7: wake them up, tie them up, restrain them, and that's it.
Speaker 7: He's taking them that night, tacks some luggage, roots around
Speaker 7: for some jewelry, some prescription drugs, puts them in their car,
Speaker 7: and drives them to a remote abandoned house that he
Speaker 7: says he had found the day before, and he tells
Speaker 7: them he gives them another clue. He says, whenever I'm
Speaker 7: on a road trip, whenever I'm driving around, I always
Speaker 7: look for abandoned houses, especially ones with a four sale sign.
Speaker 7: I always stop at ones with a four sale sign.
Speaker 7: And he had gone in his house, and he had
Speaker 7: seen had it been lived in for years, if not decades,
Speaker 7: and it was abandoned, and there was a hole in
Speaker 7: the floor of one bedroom that dropped down right to
Speaker 7: the living room. There was a basement. It was off
Speaker 7: of a small road. It was it was perfect, and
Speaker 7: it's to him it looked like a house of horrors.
Speaker 7: And he's driving them up to this house and they
Speaker 7: are begging him to let them go, that they're old,
Speaker 7: they're sick, and they have no money, and if they
Speaker 7: would just let him go, they will give him everything
Speaker 7: they've got and they will never tell a soul. And
Speaker 7: he tells them what he told Samantha Konig the night
Speaker 7: he took her, that he was just a kidnapping for
Speaker 7: ransom and they were going to be fine, and he
Speaker 7: was bringing them to a drop house where someone else
Speaker 7: would take this over. And he takes them into that house,
Speaker 7: and he visits upon them unspeakable horrors, and when he
Speaker 7: is done, he leaves their bodies in trash bags in
Speaker 7: the corner of the basement and tells the FBI that
Speaker 7: he has been planning to more thoroughly dispose of their remains,
Speaker 7: but he was running out of time because the sun
Speaker 7: was coming up and there was a small amount of
Speaker 7: traffic on the road of people going to work. And
Speaker 7: he figured that it would be fine ultimately, because whoever
Speaker 7: bought the house, he thought, would either tear it down
Speaker 7: or burn it, and they were doing it for the property,
Speaker 7: and then they would just rebuild. And that anyone who
Speaker 7: even thought about going into the basement would think that
Speaker 7: they were smelling the stench of a dead wild animal
Speaker 7: and never take a look. And so, first of all,
Speaker 7: again the agents don't believe what they're hearing, because what
Speaker 7: he's describing and what he's done to this couple who
Speaker 7: were you know, they were infirm, and they were slightly overweight,
Speaker 7: and the husband, Bill especially, was a big guy, and
Speaker 7: it really would have been hard to take one of
Speaker 7: them alone, aside from two of them. But the timeline
Speaker 7: he's giving them, you know, this is like five hours
Speaker 7: start to finish. So they send sealed agents to that
Speaker 7: house and lo and behold keys is right, it's already
Speaker 7: been torn down. It's been less than a year. He
Speaker 7: committed this crime in June of twenty eleven, and he's
Speaker 7: telling them about it in March of twenty twelve, and
Speaker 7: the house is gone, and so as he is very
Speaker 7: interested in learning the progress of what's going on in Vermont,
Speaker 7: and he wants One of the things he's saying is listen,
Speaker 7: I gave you all these details. I want to see
Speaker 7: the pictures of the remains. And this, again, is it
Speaker 7: an unfortunate tell on Felds's part because he asks why.
Speaker 7: He asks why, and he says, I want to see them.
Speaker 7: I just want to see them. That's the way I am.
Speaker 7: And Feldis realizes that he just wants to get off
Speaker 7: on seeing the decomposed remains and it's it's now clear
Speaker 7: to Keys that felt it terrified of him, but he
Speaker 7: keeps asking over and over and he asks feldis you
Speaker 7: know week has gone by, now have they found the
Speaker 7: bodies yet? And Felda says they haven't found the bodies,
Speaker 7: And Jesus like, are you sure they have the right house?
Speaker 7: And Felda says yeah, And he says, well, that is
Speaker 7: extremely weird because those bodies should be very easy to find.
Speaker 7: It wasn't that big of a house. And Feladas is
Speaker 7: offering all these lame excuses left and right, but Keys
Speaker 7: is beginning to piece it together like they might not
Speaker 7: ever find these bodies, and in fact, they they have
Speaker 7: to tell him because he's got access to the internet.
Speaker 7: Oh guess what Israel. It looks like whoever bought this
Speaker 7: land this house? They hired a crew to excavate the basement,
Speaker 7: and so the bodies are in the landfill and the
Speaker 7: FBI is searching the landfill and this becomes the largest
Speaker 7: such hunt in FBI history. And it goesult for weeks
Speaker 7: and they can't find the bodies and they have to
Speaker 7: tell Keys they can't find the bodies. And now Keys
Speaker 7: knows really that he holds all the cards, he said.
Speaker 7: I guess I spoke too soon on that one. He
Speaker 7: only gave them the couriers because they had his laptop,
Speaker 7: they had his computer, and they were going to find
Speaker 7: photos and news stories about the courier's disappearance, and he
Speaker 7: figured they would put that on him, and he may
Speaker 7: as well give them an easy one. And now he
Speaker 7: knows there's no such thing as an easy one.
Speaker 9: Yeah, he's upset. And at some point too, he tells
Speaker 9: them that he wasn't initially interested in fame, but now,
Speaker 9: or at some point, he decided he would. He was
Speaker 9: interested in infamy, wasn't he.
Speaker 7: I think so. I think that because he was such
Speaker 7: a student not just of the FBI's criminal profilers, but
Speaker 7: the detiction of killers like him in popular culture. Because
Speaker 7: he was extremely interested in discussing his mo and what
Speaker 7: he considered his unique skill set, more so than his victims.
Speaker 7: The way I sort of describe it in the book,
Speaker 7: I say that he wanted them to know that in
Speaker 7: the history of Moms, because he was a great and
Speaker 7: I do think he just wanted to avoid it on
Speaker 7: his terms and to have that recognition also on his terms.
Speaker 7: He said that it was really about protecting his daughter.
Speaker 7: To some degree, that was true, but he was certainly
Speaker 7: for all of his rural background without really any formal education,
Speaker 7: he was an extremely bright guy who certainly understood the
Speaker 7: basic principles of Google. So he knew that that was
Speaker 7: an inevitability. But you know, again, he wanted it on
Speaker 7: his terms. And he went so far as to, you know,
Speaker 7: sort of happily tell them his future plans, one of
Speaker 7: which was inspired by the infamous serial killer HH Holmes,
Speaker 7: who is the subject of the great book Devil in
Speaker 7: the White City. And I'm sure all of your listeners
Speaker 7: are familiar with Holmes, but for anyone who's not, he
Speaker 7: built a dungeon in his mansion in Chicago during the
Speaker 7: the World Fair there, and he advertised it at the hotel,
Speaker 7: and really it was just an elaborate lore to to
Speaker 7: have victims come to him. As Keys described his favorite
Speaker 7: way to take someone, he said, back when I was smart,
Speaker 7: I would just let them come to me. And his
Speaker 7: dungeon he used as a as a place to hold
Speaker 7: his victims for a long time and torture them and
Speaker 7: rape them before killing them. And Keith said that that
Speaker 7: was his plan. He really wanted it was what he
Speaker 7: called his retirement plan, built a big house with a
Speaker 7: dungeon where he could keep victims for much longer. And
Speaker 7: another more immediate plan that he had was to leave
Speaker 7: Anchorage and begin traveling the country as an itinerant construction worker,
Speaker 7: because he told them that there was no greater cover
Speaker 7: for moving around offering his services as all of the
Speaker 7: increasing extreme weather events. And that was a plan that
Speaker 7: was diabolical and ingenious, quite frankly, and that coupled with
Speaker 7: really the unforced error he made when later he begins
Speaker 7: talking to them again and says, I know how to
Speaker 7: build bombs, you know. Was that an unforced error or
Speaker 7: was that like another chancelizing clue he's using to tap
Speaker 7: them withs like you don't know what I'm truly capable of,
Speaker 7: Try and figure it out. Maybe I'll help you, maybe
Speaker 7: I won't. And I think that he truly was laying
Speaker 7: the groundwork for what he hoped his narrative would be.
Speaker 7: I want to say that said, I really went to
Speaker 7: great pains in this book to call Keys what he is,
Speaker 7: a monster, a predator, a complete aberration. I explore, with
Speaker 7: the help of Roy Hazelwood, psychopathy into your earlier question
Speaker 7: about how Keys's upbringing may have formed or malformed this individual.
Speaker 7: Are they born or are they made? But the larger
Speaker 7: point being I in no way would ever want anyone
Speaker 7: to take away from this book that any of these
Speaker 7: acts are things to be glorified for. In fact, at
Speaker 7: one point he tells the investigators visa V relaying the
Speaker 7: details of his crimes. You know, hey, I'm not in
Speaker 7: this for the glory. You know, he really wizes that
Speaker 7: the culture has this sick fascination and tends to glorify
Speaker 7: serial killers. I really hope that if anything, it's it's
Speaker 7: it's the victims who are are the sole focus of
Speaker 7: sympathy here and recognition, and that Keys is is what
Speaker 7: the FBI and Quantiga regard him to be, which is
Speaker 7: a thing to be studied and to learn from.
Speaker 9: You talk about how many with this investigation is incredible
Speaker 9: investigation and interrogation and his confession. How many bodies did
Speaker 9: they confirm that he had killed? That were confirmed? And
Speaker 9: then from the entirety the totality of this interview, were
Speaker 9: they looking anywhere else for potential victims?
Speaker 7: Oh yes, Oh my gosh, this is such great question.
Speaker 7: So the official tally for the victims of Israel Keys
Speaker 7: is eleven. He've told them he had killed less than
Speaker 7: twelve people. Now, for Steve Pain, that was always a
Speaker 7: weird number. Steve Pain is a math guy, and he figured, Okay,
Speaker 7: most people round up by five or ten. The twelve
Speaker 7: is odd, so I'm going to figure eleven. There are
Speaker 7: other investigators on this case, other agents, who believe that
Speaker 7: number is far more, and I am in that camp.
Speaker 7: He told them he had been doing this for fourteen years.
Speaker 7: I think he started way earlier, and it's a it's
Speaker 7: a conclusion I reached after, you know, five years of
Speaker 7: a deep research and reporting on this case. I believe
Speaker 7: there are some rule. There are several cold cases that
Speaker 7: I explore in the book that I hope are reopened
Speaker 7: cold cases and the miss unsolved missing persons cases, two
Speaker 7: completely different things that law enforcement has reason to believe
Speaker 7: Israel Keys is likely responsible for. And I say that
Speaker 7: based on information the agents gave me directly about their
Speaker 7: own suspicions. I say that based on hundreds of pages
Speaker 7: I got from the Department of Justice case files that
Speaker 7: involves both calls to the FBI tip line and emails
Speaker 7: from both civilians and law enforcements all over the United
Speaker 7: States saying please look at Israel Keys for this. His
Speaker 7: mo fits the circumstances of the disappearance of my friend,
Speaker 7: my loved one, my husband, my son. I cross referenced
Speaker 7: those with another classified piece of information I was able
Speaker 7: to obtain, which was the FBI's secret internal timeline of
Speaker 7: Israel Keys's known travels. This is far more detailed than
Speaker 7: the timeline that the FBI threw up online in about
Speaker 7: twenty thirteen asking for the public's help in locating and
Speaker 7: identifying other victims of Israel Keys. And when I got
Speaker 7: the secret timeline, which I only attained last summer, so
Speaker 7: about a year ago or maybe last all this was
Speaker 7: a revelation because this timeline included information that came directly
Speaker 7: from journals and calendars that Keys kept, so they were
Speaker 7: able to put him at places where previously they might
Speaker 7: not have been able to. So in cross referencing all
Speaker 7: these materials, there are about four or five cases revisited
Speaker 7: in the book that make a strong argument for another look.
Speaker 7: And I would close that out by saying, the Keys
Speaker 7: told them he just gave them this. He said, I
Speaker 7: buried one, but possibly two victims in Lake Crescent in Washington,
Speaker 7: and I went to Lake Crescent because I visited with
Speaker 7: the FBI agents in Washington State who works it, and
Speaker 7: it is one of the largest lakes in the United
Speaker 7: States of America. Until you see it, you can't comprehend
Speaker 7: how vast it is. At its deepest point, it's probably
Speaker 7: seven hundred feet. They've never been to the bottom of it,
Speaker 7: so Key said, there's at least one down there, and
Speaker 7: the FBI checked with their experts. It's fresh water, there's
Speaker 7: very little marine life. The chances of preservation are remarkably good.
Speaker 7: And the agents in Washington State told me they went
Speaker 7: to the Bureau and they said, we want to do
Speaker 7: a recovery operation, and the Bureau told them no because
Speaker 7: they did not want to spend the money.
Speaker 9: Yeah, incredible, Mariene. You also talk about and we could
Speaker 9: spend hours and hours just going over some of the
Speaker 9: incredible details that are in this book. But you talk
Speaker 9: about the May twenty third, twenty twelve, he's in court
Speaker 9: and he tries to run from court, an incredible thing
Speaker 9: that Jeff Bell had predicted that he thought, Jesus, I
Speaker 9: think he's going to do something. So he tries to
Speaker 9: run from court and he was tasered. You also talk
Speaker 9: about some of the behavior that Ted Bundy exhibited as
Speaker 9: well in terms of what they find out.
Speaker 11: Is that.
Speaker 9: Evidence that certainly he was into necrophilia, He was interested
Speaker 9: in necrophilia as well, among the other things that were
Speaker 9: traits of other serial killers as well.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the necrophilia is never not shocking. But yeah, with
Speaker 7: killers like these, and they are as Roy Hazel would
Speaker 7: call them, lust driven serial murderers, it's really not that uncommon.
Speaker 7: The courthouse escape is really interesting and telling for so
Speaker 7: many reasons, not least of which you know, again with Bundy,
Speaker 7: Bundy escaped when he was in custody in Florida when
Speaker 7: they finally got him, he escaped from prison, and I
Speaker 7: believe he may have also had a courthouse escape attempt,
Speaker 7: if not success. So the Keys is in federal courts
Speaker 7: and he's sitting at the table with his defense attorneys.
Speaker 7: He's surrounded by the US marshalls, the courthouse is packed,
Speaker 7: the press is there, and Jeff Bell is there, as
Speaker 7: is Chief King and but Belle, particularly the way he
Speaker 7: sort of described this to me, He's watching Keys look
Speaker 7: back over his shoulder at an attractive young woman and
Speaker 7: she's a reporter, Bell thinks, and he keeps doing this
Speaker 7: and he can't tell if he is flirting with her
Speaker 7: or trying to intimidate or what. Bell starts moving himself
Speaker 7: over to break Keys's eye lines so that he can
Speaker 7: no longer make eye contact with this girl, and Keys
Speaker 7: shoots him a look that's like daggers, and the court
Speaker 7: begins its proceeding and suddenly Israel Keys jumps up. His
Speaker 7: leg chains are unlocked somehow, and he has, I mean,
Speaker 7: think about what this would look like. He's jumped up
Speaker 7: over his chair. His hands are still handcuffed in front
Speaker 7: of him, and he is leaping over benches. He's going
Speaker 7: bench by bench by bench by bench, like think about
Speaker 7: the athleticism and the balance and just the sheer defiance.
Speaker 7: And the courthouse erupts and Jeff Belle leaps up to
Speaker 7: go after him, and the US Marshals grab him and
Speaker 7: they gave him and Keys is on his back and
Speaker 7: Belle is looking at Keys's expression and he sees it's
Speaker 7: one of ecstasy. And it's again it's another moment where
Speaker 7: even someone as seasoned as Belle is just completely floored
Speaker 7: by the monster he is dealing with. And he later
Speaker 7: learned that he was able to make that attempt by
Speaker 7: taking the cell phane that had been used to wrap
Speaker 7: his sandwich which he had been given in the courthouse.
Speaker 7: He was given the standard issue sandwich and apple and
Speaker 7: milk carton with a straw and in a paper bag.
Speaker 7: And so he took that piece of cellophane and he
Speaker 7: worked it up in his mouth, and he somehow unlocked
Speaker 7: his leg irons and he used a slimsy piece of
Speaker 7: cellophane to keep them together until ready to make a
Speaker 7: run for it. And if, by the way, if you
Speaker 7: try to find footage of that escape attempt, which made
Speaker 7: national news and there's video of it, it's all been
Speaker 7: taken down. And why I have no idea. But this
Speaker 7: became yet another battle for Jeff Bell, who was the
Speaker 7: investigator who day after day would go to the courthouse.
Speaker 7: He had the best rapport with keys. He would go
Speaker 7: and say, do you want to talk? Do you want
Speaker 7: to come out, like, we'll take you out. You can
Speaker 7: go to the FBI's offices. We'll have some launch you
Speaker 7: can read the paper. But he was he was the
Speaker 7: most diligent about eyeing keys and what he was capable of.
Speaker 7: There was a day at the FBI where he noticed
Speaker 7: Keys was working his jaw subtlely, and Bell forced him
Speaker 7: to open his mouth and in there were little shards
Speaker 7: of pencils that Keys was fashioning into weapons. They were
Speaker 7: never in a room with him unarmed, without guards there.
Speaker 7: You know, Jeff Bell would watch as with the other
Speaker 7: agent as Keys would just sort of eyeball the room,
Speaker 7: like he would be looking at electrical sockets. He would
Speaker 7: be looking at what can I make thing out of?
Speaker 7: What can I make into a weapon? To get out
Speaker 7: of here. He was found with a razor blade. Jeff
Speaker 7: Bell had to go to the head of the correctional
Speaker 7: facility and say, you guys, can't give this guy anything.
Speaker 7: Because there was a day where Jeff Bell was strip
Speaker 7: searching Keys before leaving, which was standard procedure, and there
Speaker 7: was always an armed guard outside that room. And after
Speaker 7: Keyes finished his after Bell finished his strip search of Keys,
Speaker 7: the armed guard had just wandered off. And so now
Speaker 7: Bell is alone in his room with this guy who
Speaker 7: he yes, he has rapport with on a professional level,
Speaker 7: but he is not fooled, like he knows that Keys
Speaker 7: would kill him just going to talk to him, and
Speaker 7: Jeff Bell is terrified, like he was very honest about it,
Speaker 7: and he had to knock on the door from the
Speaker 7: inside without evincing any fear to get a guard to
Speaker 7: come back and unlock that door. And so you know,
Speaker 7: he's basically saying, how laxed? Can you guys be like,
Speaker 7: don't you understand who this is? And don't you understand
Speaker 7: that he can make things out of anything? And so
Speaker 7: this was an ongoing, ongoing battle that was waighed. But
Speaker 7: it was just yet another example of Keys's extreme lethality.
Speaker 7: I mean, they found Bell found in his bell one day,
Speaker 7: like he was getting survivalist magazines in jail.
Speaker 9: Excuse me, Yes, I want to thank you very much.
Speaker 9: I cut this short. I want to thank you very
Speaker 9: much for this interview American Predator, the hunt for the
Speaker 9: most meticulous serial killer of the twenty first century. Just
Speaker 9: before I closed, is there a website or Facebook page
Speaker 9: we might access? Oh?
Speaker 7: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 7: It was a pleasure speaking with you. You can find American
Speaker 7: Predator wherever books are sold, and you can find me
Speaker 7: at Maureen Callahan do bet.
Speaker 9: Thank you very much, American Predator the hunt for the
Speaker 9: most meticulous serial killer of the twenty first century. Thank
Speaker 9: you very much, Maureen Callahan, good night, thank you so much.
Speaker 7: Bye.