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NS February eighteenth, 11 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:30.039 twenty twenty six. 12 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:33.079 Do you know what real power is? It's knowing you're 13 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:35.840 on the same rate for energy all day, every day 14 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:38.759 with a smart all Day plan from Board Gosh Energy. 15 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.159 Save up to eight hundred and eighty euro on dual 16 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:43.719 fuel plus get a two hundred and thirty five euro 17 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:47.560 welcome bonus switch today at board Goosh Energy dot Ie 18 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:50.640 board Gosh Energy. Know your Power. 19 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:52.719 Estimation Annuel bill at twenty six hundred and twenty nine 20 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:55.039 Your new customers only thirst of percentis kent off Smart 21 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:57.079 all day electricity unit rates in twenty nine percent of 22 00:00:57.119 --> 00:00:59.920 gas units, sportcash energy dot E for full teesncs. 23 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.479 Oh hey, it's the bouncer who comments on your out 24 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:05.840 of state license because he has a cousin who lives there. 25 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:09.480 Ali Ward back with a fresh and a timely episode 26 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:13.159 of ologies that as an episode and as a species, 27 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:16.159 this one is really long overdue, but it was finally 28 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:19.640 driven by some recent events in Ohio and Jarret and 29 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:22.959 I went to our neighbors to eat dip for a 30 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:25.120 quarter or two during the Super Bowl, and we were 31 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:28.480 pretty shocked to learn how few of our neighbor's friends 32 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:31.799 had heard of this trained derailment in eastern Ohio. Same 33 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.439 thing with my family chat, Everyone's like, what derailment? So 34 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:38.040 I said, Ward, let's talk to an environmental toxicologist about 35 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:39.239 their whole life and this. 36 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:40.439 So we did so. 37 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:42.159 I asked around for the best person to chat with, 38 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:45.640 and y'all delivered. So many arrows pointed right at this 39 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:49.599 ologist who did an undergrad degree in environmental science, got 40 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.400 a master's in public health and environmental and Occupational health, 41 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:57.640 including a very fancy environmental health Risk Assessment certification, and 42 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:01.599 then earned their doctorate in environment mental, and Occupational health. 43 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:05.640 They're now doing a postdoc at Northeastern Universities Social Science, 44 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:10.560 Environmental Health Research Institute in Boston, and they've studied anthrax 45 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:17.639 in Alaska, potential antidotes to lethal phosphine poisoning Sneaky p foss. 46 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:20.800 Much more on those later, they studied how climate change 47 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:25.439 impacts epidemiology and mitochondrial poisons. Their work is just this 48 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:31.439 beautiful soup of environmental toxicology, public health, and environmental justice. 49 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:33.800 They're perfect for this. But before we get to the interview, 50 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:36.560 a quick thank you to everyone who's sponsoring on Patreon 51 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:39.680 at patreon dot com, slash ologies, I love you a 52 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:42.159 dollar or more a month lets you lob questions at 53 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.360 our guests. It also keeps show running and for zero dollars. 54 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:47.280 If you like, you can just help us out by 55 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:51.039 telling friends or reviewing, or making sure you're subscribed, or 56 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:53.520 leaving a rating or a review. 57 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:55.479 I do read all the reviews. 58 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:57.919 And as a thanks, I highlight a fresh one each week, 59 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:00.919 like this one from Nikki Drinks, who wrote Ali Ward 60 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:04.719 put her whole alla jusse into this show. I tell 61 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:07.400 everyone I know about it. I'm obsessed. Much love to you, 62 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:10.800 Queen Nikki Drinks. I would like to buy you a 63 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:14.280 drink for that. Ala jusse god I hope I said 64 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.520 that right. I loved it. Also, Anna Kate Thora hugs 65 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:20.599 to you. Okay, Environmental toxicology and a little bit of 66 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:25.479 fun trivia. So toxicology comes from the word toxin, which 67 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:29.840 means poison, which was from a Greek word for poisoned arrows, 68 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:34.400 which came from an older word taxa, meaning archery, which 69 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:38.039 came from an older word meaning a yew tree, which, 70 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:40.639 in a weird roundabout way, there's a compound from the 71 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:43.319 Pacific yew tree that was approved in nineteen ninety three 72 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:47.360 as a chemotherapy called taxol for breast cancer among other cancers. 73 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.719 And chemotherapy is a type of well administered poison to tumors. 74 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:55.159 So much more on that whole philosophy coming up. You're 75 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.400 gonna love this. So I made this ologist get on 76 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:00.120 the horn to talk about their work and chemical spill, 77 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:07.080 historical disasters, water quality, airborne toxic events, clear gases, white noise, 78 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:12.000 dead fish, dark clouds, chemistry tests, raincoats, lawsuits, and lead. 79 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:15.120 So take a deep breath if your air is fresh, 80 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:20.639 and get ready to love environmental toxicologist. Doctor Kimberly k Garrett. 81 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:40.959 Sure, Kimberly Garrett. 82 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:46.079 She's and doctor, right, oh yes, yes, yes. 83 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.639 Yeah, and you can also call me Kim so that's 84 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:50.360 fine too. It's been quite a week. 85 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:52.000 It has been quite a. 86 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:53.519 Week toxicology land. 87 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:56.800 Dang, is there any part of you that's like, Wow, 88 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.399 people finally care about environmental toxicology? 89 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:05.079 Oh? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm sad that it takes 90 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:08.800 an emergency or a disaster for people to be interested 91 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:11.639 in the field that I love so much. But you know, 92 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.759 there's the room for everybody in the in the toxicology train, 93 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:15.839 so so welcome. 94 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:22.000 No, but intended on the train. Oh my gosh, we 95 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:24.160 have trains on the brains. What can you say? 96 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:27.560 Well, I'm from Pennsylvania and my partner, who is not 97 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.959 from Pennsylvania, is convinced that every Pennsylvania has a genetic 98 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.000 disposition to love trains. I can't escape it. 99 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:38.120 And how did you decide what to do your PhD In? 100 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:44.600 Well, when I was an undergrad, I became really interested 101 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:48.240 in chemical toxicology. I initially wanted to go to undergrad 102 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:52.399 for chemistry, but I have really bad test anxiety, and 103 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:55.360 so the testing of the you know, weed out classes 104 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.040 at the beginning, really they weeded me out, and so 105 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.800 I ended up going into environmental science, and I'm so 106 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:05.680 glad that I did, because I took a toxicology class 107 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:07.800 and I learned about all different kinds of ways that 108 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:12.199 chemicals impact our bodies. And from then on, I was like, 109 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.240 if it's a chemical, I want to study it and 110 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:17.800 how it impacts our health. And so I really got 111 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:23.519 into the laboratory science side. I did a lot of spectroscopy, spectrophotometry, 112 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:28.600 very molecular analytic methods to start to learn about how 113 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.439 chemicals impact our bodies and how chemicals interact with each other. 114 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:34.720 So even though I didn't have that official chemistry background, 115 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:38.720 I really learned a lot through hands on research and 116 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.680 learning from other colleagues. And then I wrote to a 117 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:45.240 professor at pitt who was teaching in an organic chemistry class, 118 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:48.720 and that professor was just very wonderful and supportive and 119 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.000 that class really really impacted the way that I do 120 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:52.519 my work. 121 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:55.800 And so this professor, doctor Jill Millstone, at the University 122 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:58.959 of Pittsburgh's Department of Chemistry, ended up changing the course 123 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:01.879 of Kim's life life and on the topic of the past. 124 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:08.000 Let's go way back environmentally toxicologically speaking, what about when 125 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:10.800 this career kind of took a turn. I imagine that 126 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:16.879 we've been using way more human made chemicals and forever chemicals, 127 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.839 and we have better technology to study them. Was there 128 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:24.600 even a thing called environmental toxicology like before the nineteen hundreds, 129 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:25.879 does anyone even care? 130 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:27.079 Well? 131 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:32.319 There definitely was toxicology throughout history. One of the founders 132 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:37.279 of toxicology a guy that we call Paracelsus. He was 133 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:40.839 an alchemist and had some pretty bonkers ideas about how 134 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:43.600 the world worked, but he had some good ideas about 135 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:47.000 how chemicals work and how poisons work. And so we 136 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:51.279 think of historical toxicology as very poison driven, you know, 137 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:57.839 mercury in alchemy operations, and cyanide in drinks of rich 138 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:01.000 men by their future widows and things like that. But 139 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:03.959 I mean, the environment is around and has always been 140 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:06.560 interacting with our bodies. And even if there wasn't the 141 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:10.160 language to talk about it the way that we do now, 142 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:14.079 people knew about associations between what was going on outside 143 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:15.560 and what was going on inside. 144 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:19.680 So toxicology has existed for thousands of years before the 145 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:25.519 Egyptian hieroglyphs that warned of poisons and before socrates death 146 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.879 by hemlock. But toxicology had its official start on the 147 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:32.000 books in the fifteen hundreds with yes, the Swiss born 148 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:38.159 physician and alchemist Paracelsus, whose birth name was actually Philippus 149 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:44.240 Eurolius Theophrastus Bombastis von Hohenheim, which I fucking dare you 150 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:49.919 to name your next cat Philippus Ariolis Theophrastus Bombastis vaun Hollenheim, 151 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:55.039 please anyway, But Paracelsus was actually a pen name for 152 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:57.960 his non science writing, but it kind of stuck after 153 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.679 his death, like Madonna or Real or Beyonce or Share 154 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.279 or a Dell. But his hot jams included hits like 155 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:09.679 figuring out that miners disease or ciliosis was caused by 156 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:13.200 inhaling rock dust and was not, according to the prevailing 157 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.279 medical opinion of the time quote a punishment for sin 158 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:20.200 administered by mountain spirits. He's like, no, that's from dust, guys. 159 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:22.960 But fast forward a few hundred years to the late 160 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:26.919 seventeen hundreds into the mid eighteen hundreds, and there was 161 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.279 a revolution mechanically and toxicologically. 162 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:34.840 That really gained attention in the Industrial Revolution when we 163 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:39.879 saw really really gruesome working conditions in factories and people 164 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:43.919 were being exposed to chemicals in confined spaces, and we 165 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:45.919 can think about things like coal mining too. Is a 166 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.600 huge kind of start of environmental toxicology and environmental science. 167 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:52.200 But a lot of the industrial chemicals that we used 168 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.440 during the Industrial Revolution made people very, very sick, and 169 00:09:55.559 --> 00:10:00.000 so throughout public health history people have been looking at 170 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:03.480 the ways that those chemicals lead to death and tabulating 171 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:06.679 worker's death and things like that. Really, in the environmental 172 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:10.080 movement in the nineteen sixties really spearheaded the EPA in 173 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:13.840 the formation of some of the occupational safety groups in 174 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:17.200 the US, So it kind of follows the general environmental movement. Yess. 175 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:21.519 So a few things that contribute to the environmentalism movement 176 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:25.120 were not as what I assumed was just absolutely shriven 177 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:28.639 balls in a park in the sixties talking to squirrels. Rather, 178 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.960 it was renowned marine biologist and conservationist Rachel Carson. She 179 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:37.440 released the nineteen sixty two book Silent Spring about the 180 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:40.919 dangers of DDT and other synthetic pesticides. 181 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:42.200 And plus there was a. 182 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:46.440 Massive oil spill off the coast of California, and apparently 183 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.440 a river in Ohio was so polluted in the sixties 184 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:54.559 it's straight up caught on fire. Plus, astronauts started taking 185 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.279 photos of the Earth from the moon and people were like, yikes, whoa, 186 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.039 We're on a planet in space and it's really pretty 187 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.559 from there, and it's just a shame to garbage it. 188 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:06.480 So boomers, who were like the gen c of their 189 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.120 time were like, boy howdy, it would be so groovy 190 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:11.919 to save the planet. And so in nineteen seventy, the 191 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:16.919 EPA officially launched under history's favorite President Nixon. So to 192 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.759 this day, if you ask the EPA website what do 193 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:22.559 you do, it'll tell you that among its duties are 194 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.279 working to ensure that Americans have clean air, land, and water, 195 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.720 and that all parts of society communities, individuals, businesses, local 196 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:36.399 and tribal governments have access to accurate information to manage 197 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:40.480 human health and environmental risks. They make sure contaminated lands 198 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:44.600 and toxic sites are cleaned up by the potentially responsible parties, 199 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:48.679 and they review chemicals in the marketplace for safety. Although, 200 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.480 in a pretty big surprise in June of twenty twenty two, 201 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:56.200 the majority conservative US Supreme Court voted six to three 202 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:00.159 along political lines in the West Virginia versus the US 203 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:04.200 Environmental Protection Agency case, and the Supreme Court blocked the 204 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:08.559 EPA for making future broad regulations on greenhouse gas emissions 205 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:13.000 from coal fueled power plans. So environmental lawyers say that 206 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.679 that ruling in June set back renewable and clean energy 207 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:20.240 efforts by five or ten years. Nine people in America 208 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.240 make decisions that affect the world. Oh life, What even 209 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:28.600 is it? Who do environmental toxicologists sort of answer to? 210 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:31.000 Who's kind of keeping an eye out on this stuff 211 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:34.279 to make sure that there's not just like asbestos falling 212 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:37.639 from our Christmas decorations, you know, like there used to be. 213 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:42.879 Right. So, in the United States, the government authorities on 214 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:47.559 environmental and occupational safety, which environmental toxicology and occupational health 215 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:51.720 go hand in hand because chemical exposures at work are 216 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:55.720 very very important to monitor. In the United States, there's 217 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.960 the National Institute of Health has NIOSH, which is the 218 00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:02.320 National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health. There's also OSHA, 219 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:05.200 which is the Occupational Safety and Health but also the EPA. 220 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:09.440 The EPA looks at a lot of environmental toxicology. 221 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.039 And when you are an environmental toxicologist, do you get 222 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:17.399 to decide, Am I going to study forever chemicals like pfos? 223 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:19.840 Am I going to study gases? Am I going to 224 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:24.480 study microplastics? What kinds of stuff are y'all looking for? 225 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.840 My gosh, it's a big question literally everything. So I 226 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.919 guess this goes back to some of the principles of toxicology. 227 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.519 So our boy Paracelsus problematic fave he came up with this, 228 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:41.639 I guess, saying of the dose makes the poison, which 229 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:44.639 I actually have tattooed in Latin. I have a poison 230 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:46.039 plants tattoo. 231 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.679 Holy shit, what kind of plants are in there? 232 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:57.519 So I have fox glove, and there's poison hemlock and daffodils, 233 00:13:57.559 --> 00:13:58.519 which are my favorite flower. 234 00:13:58.879 --> 00:13:59.440 But are those so? 235 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:01.759 Yeah, the roots are really toxic. 236 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:02.639 I did know that. 237 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:07.960 Yeah, the bulbs, but they're also being studied for different 238 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:09.799 medicines and things like that. So all of these plants 239 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:14.480 also have active ingredients that in the right doses can 240 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:16.240 be used medically. 241 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:16.960 Mm hmm. 242 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:19.360 Let's see. So I think I think those are all 243 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:21.120 the ones that I have on there. But yeah, and 244 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:23.960 it also says a solid dosis fescet venym, which means 245 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:26.360 the dose makes the poison. Wow, it's like I'm going 246 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.279 to be a toxicologist. It's going to be great. 247 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:32.840 Everything fine, it's gorgeous. You also could never get away 248 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.759 with poisoning anyone. Yeah, absolutely, You've got to find a 249 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.639 different way to kill someone. If you got an enemy, you. 250 00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:41.279 Know, yeah, they would never suspect. 251 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:45.399 But yeah, when it when it comes to deciding, I mean, gosh, 252 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.360 you could study plants, you could study plastics. 253 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:49.919 Well, how do you how do you know? Do they 254 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:50.759 roll a pair of. 255 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:52.960 Like twenty sided D and D dice and that's how 256 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:53.799 you figure it out. 257 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.679 Basically, So the idea that the dose makes the poison 258 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:01.159 means that anything can be a poison and there are 259 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.120 you know, lethal doses for every chemical and sometimes those 260 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.679 adverse effects come at such high levels that you get 261 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:09.559 sick before you can reach that level and you no 262 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:12.120 longer ingest it or things like that. But so that 263 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.960 means that the limits, there aren't really any limits to 264 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:15.879 what you can study. 265 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:17.240 The limit does not exist. 266 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:21.320 So Kim was interested in endocrine disruptors and also took 267 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:25.440 a liking to inorganic chemistry, which means carbon is not involved. 268 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:29.759 Organic chemistry just means there's carbon. All living things have carbon. 269 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:34.080 Inorganic chemistry thus involves the study of things like metals, 270 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:37.039 So organic carbon, inorganic no carbon. 271 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:37.840 But don't worry. 272 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:41.360 You can study danger and not necessarily work in a 273 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:45.080 cam lab at all. There's danger everywhere, yay. 274 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:51.000 Really, if you're interested in a chemical or even a 275 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:54.320 non chemical exposure of things like noise, exposure to sunlight, 276 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.360 exposure to workplace violence, you know there's there's a place 277 00:15:57.399 --> 00:15:59.639 in risk assessment for all of those sinds of things, 278 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.759 toxicology being just part of that risk assessment. 279 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:07.600 What about something like this week? I mean, I believe 280 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:12.519 the train derailment out of East Palestine, Ohio was February sixth. 281 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:13.519 I want to say it. 282 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:17.519 Was actually around nine pm on February third, twenty twenty three, 283 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:20.279 and the train of one hundred and fifty cars, which 284 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:23.840 is nearly two miles long, was headed from Madison, Illinois 285 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.519 to a rail yard in Conway, Pennsylvania. So it crashed 286 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:30.879 on the third, but the controlled burn came on February sixth, 287 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:33.559 which is when most people may have heard about it. 288 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:35.399 But I wanted to do this episode because so many 289 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:38.360 people I knew, family members, neighbors and friends hadn't heard 290 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.519 a word about this crash at all, which kind of 291 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:44.399 mystified me. And then a reporter was arrested, which caused 292 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:46.679 some people to panic, but it turns out it was 293 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.480 for speaking while the governor was speaking at a press conference. 294 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:51.960 It just felt like I needed to get a professional's 295 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.200 opinion on what is happening. 296 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:55.600 When did you first hear about it? 297 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:01.639 So I subscribed to a mental newsletter called Above the Fold, 298 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.480 and it comes into my inbox every day, and I 299 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:07.480 received one on Monday, and it said something like train 300 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:13.559 derailment in western Pennsylvania, Ohio region. And I grew up 301 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.000 in that area, and I lived in Pittsburgh for the 302 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.319 past few years, and I was familiar with the compressed 303 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:22.680 natural gas trains that go through the city multiple times 304 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.400 a day. And some of my colleagues and my friends 305 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.480 and I have always, you know, said this would be really, 306 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:30.680 really dangerous if there was a derailment, and so I 307 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.400 was afraid that compressed natural gas train had derailed in 308 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:37.240 the urban center of Pittsburgh. And it turns out it 309 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:40.640 was closer to where I grew up than Pittsburgh. So 310 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:42.559 I was familiar with the area, and so I read 311 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:47.240 about it, and I, you know, called my parents because 312 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.880 they were fairly close, and made sure everything was okay. 313 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:53.519 And then I looked into what kind of chemicals had spilt, 314 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.279 and I had seen reports that it was carrying fose gene, 315 00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:59.480 which is not true. So at first I was like, 316 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:03.599 why are they carrying post gene? But it was vinyl chloride. 317 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:05.880 More on those in a bit. But meanwhile, Kim had 318 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.359 tweeted a thread about the hazards of the crash, and 319 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.599 it opened with as an environmental toxicologist who makes a 320 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.680 point to hate on Pittsburgh's daily compressed natural gas trains, 321 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:19.440 the East Palestine, Ohio vinyl chloride train wreck is breaking 322 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:22.359 my brain, she writes. We know that vinyl chloride is 323 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:26.000 associated with liver cancer after chronic exposure. That's important to 324 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.160 consider with any environmental release. But the more acute risk 325 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:33.279 in this case is exposure to hydrochloric acid and phose gene, 326 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.720 which are produced when vinyl chloride burns. She continues, Vinyl 327 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.000 chloride is the main concern right now because it's explosive. 328 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:46.240 So after the derailment, as dark gray plumes filled the skies. 329 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:50.119 About two thousand residents within a two mile radius of 330 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:54.400 this Appalachian Ohio town were evacuated. Tell me a little 331 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.599 bit in this particular case what that area of Ohio 332 00:18:57.759 --> 00:18:58.480 is like. 333 00:18:58.720 --> 00:18:59.559 Is it really rural? 334 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:05.759 Yes, so generally western Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio are fairly rural. 335 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:10.720 They were more populated during the Industrial Revolution and the 336 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.680 steel boom up until about the nineteen eighties when steel 337 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:16.880 left the area, leading to a bit of an economic depression. 338 00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:20.160 But I know that train infrastructure is really central to 339 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:23.920 the region, and like I said about Pennsylvanians and their trains, 340 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.440 I think the same could be said for Ohio. And 341 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:32.119 it's also an area that has a lot of industry 342 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:35.440 that is associated with a lot of environmental pollution. So 343 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.759 Pittsburgh has some of the worst air quality in the country. 344 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:43.200 They have high rates of air pollution associated cancers, and 345 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.079 it's a big environmental justice issue because those risks aren't 346 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.200 distributed evenly. You know, there's this this history of industry 347 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:54.519 coming in and polluting and then the community is left 348 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:58.440 to clean up the ruins. And so this is unfortunately 349 00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:01.240 just another case in that in that very rich history 350 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:05.160 of industrial pollution in the area. 351 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.799 Yeah, and now phose gene versus vinyl chloride, can you 352 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:12.640 tell me a little bit because these are words that 353 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.839 most of us are not familiar with, but as an 354 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.839 environmental soxologist, it's probably like one oh one for you. 355 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:24.839 Yeah. Absolutely, So vinyl chloride is really volatile. It burns 356 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:27.720 I don't want to say a low temperature, but you know, 357 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.240 on the scale of temperatures that things can burn at, 358 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.359 it's a pretty low temperature. So when it's exposed to 359 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.720 air and heat, it will combust into a variety of 360 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:42.119 combustion products. So the train derailment started a fire, and 361 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.480 the heat was rising, the pressure was building in the 362 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.960 tankers carrying vinyl chloride, and so when vinyl chloride combusts, 363 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:51.519 it produces a couple of different products, like carbon monoxide 364 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.359 and carbon dioxide. But there's also hydrogen chloride, which I 365 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:57.960 can talk about in a minute. But there's also phose gene. 366 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:02.599 So phose gene is famous for being a chemical weapon 367 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:07.759 used in World War One, and it was used purposefully 368 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:12.039 in high concentrations because of its toxicity and it disrupts 369 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:15.200 the interaction between the lowest parts of your lungs and 370 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:19.359 your bloodstreams, so oxygen doesn't get in and so you 371 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:22.880 can't breathe. And it's also denser than air, so it 372 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.240 stays closer to the ground. So if you're ever around 373 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:26.920 phase gene, you know you want to get up to 374 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.880 higher ground. And this was really important in the context 375 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:33.880 of World War One, where people were fighting in trenches, 376 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.880 and so if you have something that stays low to 377 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:37.720 the ground, then it gets stuck in trenches and so 378 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:40.759 people can't escape. And so unfortunately, it was used as 379 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:45.039 a chemical weapon, and so that's how people know it now, 380 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:50.279 and so that's produced when vinyl chloride combusts. But it 381 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:53.119 doesn't last very long in the environment. It's half life 382 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:56.359 in the laboratory scale is under a second, so it 383 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:58.920 really depends on how much there is how long that's 384 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.480 going to last. But my suspicion is that it was 385 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:04.000 gone from the area after the controlled release within a 386 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.480 few hours to maybe a day and a half. 387 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:09.160 We'll talk more about that controlled release in a bit, 388 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.160 because the decision to do it has left people well 389 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:18.240 fuming and now everything else that was a product of combustion, 390 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:19.480 did that rise. 391 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.440 For the most part, yes, So that was the other 392 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.119 interesting titbit about the controlled burn there was a thermal 393 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:29.519 inversion coming in. Can I can I geek out about 394 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:36.200 thermal inversions? Okay, So, as a loyal Pennsylvanian, I love 395 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:39.359 our environmental history and I like to talk about it 396 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:44.480 whenever possible. So, thermal inversion is when there's warm air 397 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:46.680 on the ground, but then a layer of cold air 398 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.319 comes over top of it, and it acts like a 399 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:51.839 blanket and it keeps all the warm air down on 400 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:54.279 the ground. And usually that warm air would rise up 401 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:58.119