1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. 15 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,719 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,439 Speaker 5: We are joined today by Troy Hillman, author of Chasing 17 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,280 Down the Zombie Hunter, the true story of a small 18 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,159 town accountant an elite group of detectives in Arizona's most 19 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,079 verifying cold case. 20 00:00:58,399 --> 00:01:01,759 Speaker 4: Troy, Welcome to the podcast. Made you guys for having me. 21 00:01:02,679 --> 00:01:05,519 Speaker 5: We are so thrilled to be able to talk about 22 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:09,840 this case because it really is a doozy, and it's 23 00:01:09,879 --> 00:01:12,200 one that I think a lot of our listeners might 24 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:15,959 be unfamiliar with. So before we get into your background 25 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,519 and how you got involved with the case, start by 26 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,719 talking to us about the case that a lot of 27 00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:25,079 Phoenicians know as the Canal killings, although now I think 28 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,359 it's pivoting to be called the Zombie Hunter murders. 29 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 4: Tell us about the Canal killings. So the first murder 30 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,079 happened in November of nineteen ninety two. A young woman 31 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,439 named Angela Brosso went for a bike ride at dusk, 32 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,719 and that was a Sunday evening, and she never came 33 00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:44,560 back from her bike ride. And the next day officers 34 00:01:44,719 --> 00:01:49,319 saw that grizzly made a grizzly discovery on the right 35 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,519 by her apartment complex, and she had been decapitated. Her 36 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,560 head had been taken from the scenes and her bike 37 00:01:56,719 --> 00:01:59,480 as well as her walkman. So that's what officers found. 38 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,640 Detectives converged and then just worked the hell out of 39 00:02:04,439 --> 00:02:09,520 the basically the investigation and came up with really nothing 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,479 over the next ten months. And I must say that 41 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,719 ten days after Angela was killed, the killer threw her 42 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:20,319 head back in the canal and that was even more shocking, 43 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,280 I think to the city of Phoenix, the state of 44 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,120 Arizona that he would do something like that. So then 45 00:02:25,199 --> 00:02:28,240 ten months later, in September of nineteen ninety three, a 46 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,879 seventeen year old junior at Arcadia High School went for 47 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,240 bike ride, her name was Melanie Burtis at dusk and 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,879 she rode from the Arcadia area, which is on the 49 00:02:36,879 --> 00:02:39,560 eastern side of Phoenix, up towards what was known as 50 00:02:39,599 --> 00:02:42,680 Metro Center, the north central side of Phoenix, and she 51 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,120 was never She was found the next day, actually floating 52 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,879 into the canal, redressed and had been carved on. 53 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,159 Speaker 2: Were you working the case right from the beginning, Troy. 54 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 4: No, I actually I wasn't. Was in college at the time, 55 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,680 back at the University of Illinois doing my accounting degree, 56 00:03:01,879 --> 00:03:05,199 which i fill to this day. It's a great degree, 57 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:06,840 but I didn't really want to use it. 58 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,439 Speaker 5: Accounting definitely has its uses, but I think that you 59 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,479 found a way to put your intelligence and skills to 60 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,439 much better use. And I'm sure most of Phoenix would 61 00:03:16,439 --> 00:03:20,319 agree with my assessment on that one. So the type 62 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,319 of killings that you saw here, these really brutal murders, 63 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,560 was that normal for Phoenix at that time. 64 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 4: No, I honestly, Kristin would say, it's not all for 65 00:03:30,159 --> 00:03:32,759 Phoenix at any time or anywhere. It was something kind 66 00:03:32,759 --> 00:03:35,479 of scripted out of a Hollywood It's just this level 67 00:03:35,479 --> 00:03:40,360 of brutality. And then we have this awful, horrific murder happen, 68 00:03:40,719 --> 00:03:43,240 and then another one ten months later, and then nothing. 69 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:44,960 So you have nothing on the front end and you 70 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,759 have nothing on the back end. So investigators were really 71 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,560 just stretching their head. And then you had fear amongst 72 00:03:50,599 --> 00:03:53,639 the public saying, Okay, this is obviously a serial killer 73 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,000 if he's doing these things at the heading and redressing 74 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,520 and carving and these fantasies, so what are you doing 75 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,360 about it? And thousands of tips came in internationally and 76 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,360 they were able to triage each one, but they were 77 00:04:06,599 --> 00:04:08,840 really it was what was shocking was both girls were 78 00:04:08,919 --> 00:04:10,719 killed in the same manner, with the stab wound to 79 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,800 the back, both were athletic women, and nobody could really 80 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,480 find how he got away with it. Nobody saw anything 81 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,600 but either scene, anything substantial. 82 00:04:22,959 --> 00:04:25,879 Speaker 2: And both of these cases had occurred during the day 83 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,759 and people were around, and yet no one seemed to 84 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,439 witness anything that would have led them to a suspect. 85 00:04:34,959 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, both girls went out round of dusk, so there 86 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,279 was light. And then I can't say exactly when the perpetrators, 87 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,040 I know, build the victims, but yeah, he spent a 88 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,639 lot of time with them. But this is November. The 89 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,480 factor was in November in Phoenix and the weather's really 90 00:04:49,519 --> 00:04:53,480 starting to break, and you've got rollerbladers, you've got the bicyclists, 91 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,600 you've got runners and walkers up and down those canal 92 00:04:56,639 --> 00:04:58,720 pass and people are just eager to It's kind of 93 00:04:58,759 --> 00:05:02,000 like the Winner back East when it breaks, very eager 94 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,199 to get outside. So November in Phoenix is at a 95 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,319 time where it's very recreational. So the fact that he 96 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,480 was able to do all of this, drag her hundreds 97 00:05:10,519 --> 00:05:13,680 of feet and then get away with it that inexplicable. 98 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,639 And then so the second murder was in a largely 99 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,560 commercial area, but still there were workers at a amusement 100 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,199 park which overlooked the scenes, and they were contacted and 101 00:05:25,199 --> 00:05:27,759 they said that we saw noth age, which is again 102 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,319 it's just shocking and surreal that he was able to 103 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:31,600 go undetected. 104 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 5: Yeah you're talking about castles and coasters, right, yeah, yeah, Okay, Yeah, 105 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,399 when I first started visiting my aunts in Phoenix in 106 00:05:41,439 --> 00:05:43,600 the late nineties, Castles and Coasters was one of the 107 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,879 first places that I wanted to go because how cool 108 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:48,839 is it that you've got a neat, little amusement park 109 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,279 right in the middle of the big city. 110 00:05:50,319 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 4: I loved it. 111 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 5: The area is very familiar to me, and when I 112 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,800 moved to Phoenix in two thousand and five, I did 113 00:05:58,879 --> 00:06:02,079 hear about the case, although right at that time period 114 00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:05,560 was when the baseline killer and the serial shooters were working, 115 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,759 so I was hearing a lot more about those than 116 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,040 I was about the Canal murder. But that was definitely 117 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,480 something that was peripherally on my radar that this terrible 118 00:06:14,519 --> 00:06:17,839 thing had happened. So I guess my question for you, then, 119 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,439 these are two really terrible cases. How did the case 120 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:23,639 ultimately go cold for so many years? 121 00:06:25,439 --> 00:06:28,879 Speaker 4: This was their bolt were pre DNA and DNA was 122 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,160 just starting to become a thing. They found unknown male 123 00:06:32,199 --> 00:06:35,480 profiles on both victims clothing and then on the victims, 124 00:06:35,879 --> 00:06:38,120 and they were able to pair those and say it 125 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,959 was definitively the same suspect. It was uploaded into the 126 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,240 National DNA Clothed system in nineteen ninety nine early two 127 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,879 thousand and there were no hits, so it just languished 128 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,079 there sense and that's really how it became cold. And 129 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,560 occasionally they would try to revive it with the media. 130 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,560 Silent witnesses of allved. They tried different things to really 131 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,079 get people to talk. It just the investigators did a 132 00:07:02,079 --> 00:07:05,480 great job of cataloging everything, but it just really had 133 00:07:05,519 --> 00:07:08,199 nothing to go on. The travailing opinion when we got 134 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:10,399 to it was he has to be dad, and so 135 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,199 at what point then do you join the investigation. You 136 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:17,759 mentioned that you were in college before, ironically working on 137 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,759 an accounting degree, but tell us a little bit about 138 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:26,519 your joining the police force. So in I spent a 139 00:07:26,519 --> 00:07:29,759 couple of years auditing for a really large CPA firm, 140 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,560 and I was really miserable. I was looking for something more. 141 00:07:33,639 --> 00:07:36,439 And again, it's a great career for some people, and 142 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,639 that auditing is that traditionally it canapults you into other positions, 143 00:07:40,639 --> 00:07:44,519 whether you be his partner, work at a firm, a controller, CFO, 144 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,360 that kind of thing. We could do a lot with it, 145 00:07:46,399 --> 00:07:48,480 but I just wasn't interested. I'd been paying to his 146 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,399 partner material I'd done really well in the CPA exams, 147 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:53,399 but it just wasn't my cup of tea. So I 148 00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:56,680 started testing with local police departments and I ended up 149 00:07:56,879 --> 00:07:59,079 out here in Phoenix. And I always joke because my 150 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:04,959 dad lectured me two thousand miles from Illinois to Arizona, saying, 151 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,480 what are you thinking? What are you doing? You have 152 00:08:07,519 --> 00:08:09,480 a college degree, you have a CPA, you have the 153 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:11,279 world in front of you, and now you're going to 154 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:13,639 be a beat cop. He was supportive, but at the 155 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,720 same time he was kind of like, are you out 156 00:08:15,759 --> 00:08:18,040 of your mind? And so I said, now this is 157 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,079 what I want to do. I always joke. I put 158 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,959 down my briefcase and calculator, picked up a gun and 159 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,519 a badge, and started in phoenics at the academy. Luckily, 160 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,439 I had some great people that I worked with. I 161 00:08:29,439 --> 00:08:32,879 had a Marine Corps, a veteran that was my tatpool 162 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:34,679 to the academy, and he taught me. It was kind 163 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,879 of like Shawshank Redemption. I taught him how to write 164 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:40,000 and spell, and he taught me how to shoot and 165 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,240 basically how to stitch on my shoes. And I try 166 00:08:42,279 --> 00:08:44,799 to think it's not you don't learn about in college 167 00:08:44,879 --> 00:08:46,879 one on one you don't learn about going through a 168 00:08:46,919 --> 00:08:50,320 police academy. So it was a new experience. So fast forward. 169 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:53,480 I had some detective assignment. I did patrol in South Phoenix, 170 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,120 did a detective assignment in financial crimes, and then promoted 171 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,519 a sergeant. Had my eyes sat on financial crimes, and 172 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,320 then I ended up getting a transfer to the administrative 173 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,480 I was an administrative sergeant for the commander and the 174 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,600 violent crimes bureau. And the violent crimes bureau was divided 175 00:09:08,639 --> 00:09:12,440 amongst homicide, robbery, gangs, assaults. I really got to know 176 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,039 the homicide lieutenant because he was burded out on Excel 177 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,480 spreadsheets like I did. And we had in comment and 178 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,559 so he said in two thousand and eight, he said, 179 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,639 Troy said, there's going to be an opening in cold 180 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,240 case homicide. Would you come over and take over the squad? 181 00:09:27,799 --> 00:09:31,440 And I said no. I said, I've already seen enough 182 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,120 dead bodies in patrol and I want to go get 183 00:09:34,159 --> 00:09:36,799 my nerd on as a financial guy. And he said, 184 00:09:36,879 --> 00:09:40,320 is we could really use your organizational and detail nature 185 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,320 of a CPA in cold case homicide? And I said, okay, 186 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,440 we'll give it a shot. I'll give it a year, 187 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,799 and once I got in at first. The first six 188 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,159 months I thought, this is horrible. I've got two detectives. 189 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:54,519 I've got twenty five hundred cases. They don't even exactly 190 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,639 they don't even know how many cases we have. They 191 00:09:56,639 --> 00:09:59,559 think twenty five hundred. Im, there's just a mess. But 192 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,720 it just ended up being this Leve affair and it 193 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,879 just took it on almost like a baby, and we 194 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,840 figured out how to review cases and really we're kicking butt. 195 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,799 We were solving twelve to fifteen cold cases a year 196 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,840 and back into the seventies and really had a great 197 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,240 relationship with the lab, had great detectives, Rock and Rolling, 198 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,279 And so how we got started on the Cant murders. 199 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,360 Twenty eleven, I get a media records request. I go 200 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,240 to print it out and I get yelled at by 201 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,320 the commander's secretary and I say, yeah, she's a very 202 00:10:29,399 --> 00:10:31,480 nice person, but she's coin of troying. You just burned 203 00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:34,480 through X number of boxes and toner on the printer, 204 00:10:34,639 --> 00:10:36,919 and you just burned through X number of rings of paper. 205 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,360 What are you doing? And I said, I just turnted 206 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,759 out the calend murders because I needed to go through 207 00:10:40,799 --> 00:10:43,600 them and line by line and make sure we redacted 208 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,360 them doing so, I realized, wow, this is how did 209 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:50,759 we not ever solve this? How did we not figure 210 00:10:50,759 --> 00:10:53,399 it out? Should we assemble a team and solve it? 211 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,759 And I think at first thought, Hey, I can solve it. 212 00:10:55,799 --> 00:10:58,240 I'm a CPN realized no, I need a team. 213 00:11:00,039 --> 00:11:03,159 Speaker 5: One of the most interesting parts of the book is 214 00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:06,559 as you go around and describe assembling your dream team 215 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,080 to help you solve this. And you pulled together so 216 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,879 many different types of people and they all of course 217 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:18,039 worked together really well to eventually solve the case. Would 218 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,519 you what do you think is the main saying that 219 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,559 got you that final break in the case. 220 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,799 Speaker 4: So fast forward. The case took us about three and 221 00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:31,559 a half years to work and I always tell people 222 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,759 we could have put down the other twenty four hundred 223 00:11:34,799 --> 00:11:37,240 and ninety eight cases that we're working on, and to 224 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,600 tell the survivor's family with families, Hey, we're only dedicating 225 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,240 our time to the Canal murders. So we were working 226 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,679 all these cases, doing all these court testimonies, doing all 227 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,159 these cold case functions, but we're also working heavily on 228 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,120 the Canal murders. So three and a half years we 229 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:55,000 first took a look at the cases. Every good cold 230 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,159 case starts with what did we miss? In the original case, 231 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,240 who did we miss? And there were a lot in 232 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,240 there that they missed because of again, DNA was not 233 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,320 really a thing. So we flew all over the country 234 00:12:06,519 --> 00:12:10,159 and got DNA and that had its own challenges, and 235 00:12:10,159 --> 00:12:12,440 then we'd get excited. It was a roller coaster ride 236 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,000 only to get to call from the lab of it's 237 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,519 not him, and so it was almost like bodyblow if 238 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:20,279 you're in box A over those three and a half 239 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,080 years and after a while you're just like, wow, we 240 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,399 may not ever solve this. We did have some great 241 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:28,559 help along the way. We got to fly back and 242 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,679 talk to the VIDOC Society, which is we've talked about 243 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,639 as that group out of that think tank out of 244 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,600 Philadelphia nationalon of Law Enforcement. This brilliant group of people 245 00:12:37,639 --> 00:12:39,720 that kind of ap signs on your case and kind 246 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,360 of directs you, Hey, what do you miss? What did 247 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,720 you do? What did you do wrong? And they helped 248 00:12:43,759 --> 00:12:46,399 us and blatched onto profiler. I'll leave that to the book. 249 00:12:46,519 --> 00:12:50,399 Richard Walter was his name, extremely eccentric. It just he's 250 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,399 his own. I don't know, I don't know if you 251 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,240 met Richard, but he's quite an eccentric, brilliant guy, very controversial. 252 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,519 And then we ended up using genito genealogy. We got 253 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:04,559 a call from doctor Colleen Fitzpatrick and this is twenty fourteen, 254 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,440 and this is four years before the Golden State Killer 255 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,440 and STENY'STD really hasn't talked about it, but we're really 256 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,519 pioneers and using genetic genealogy to solve a serial killer case. 257 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,200 And we used it on Miss Kings and it was 258 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:19,559 a huge breakthrough. 259 00:13:20,399 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: Tell us that story about Colleen reaching out to you, 260 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,120 because Colleen's told us the story, but we'd like to 261 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,720 hear it from your perspective. 262 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,279 Speaker 4: Yeah. So I again, we're body blow, head blow, we're 263 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,240 just weary, and we get this call. I get this 264 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,799 voicemail from one of my detectives, very in and sometimes 265 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,440 I always joked as a sergeant when a detective really 266 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,759 was didn't know what to do, they would just be like, oh, 267 00:13:45,799 --> 00:13:48,639 I'll give this to Serge. And so she forwarded with 268 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,360 this email and said, hey, Serge, I really don't know 269 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,080 what to do with this, but if you could, we 270 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,919 could discuss it. And so it was basically Colleen and 271 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,879 she said, hey, I'm going to be in town. I'm 272 00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:00,960 going to be staying at the Biltmore Resorts, and I'm 273 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,600 going to be part of this LAPP DNA conference and 274 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,759 I'm going to be lecturing, and I'd love to come 275 00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:08,799 talk to your squad. And so I immediately reached out. 276 00:14:08,879 --> 00:14:11,519 I started googlayer and figuring out who she was, and 277 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,720 then I found out she had a PhD from Duke 278 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,519 and was this brilliant person. And then I asked. I 279 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,279 called over to Kelly at the lad who was my 280 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:21,279 DNA supervisor counterpart, and I said to Kelly, I said, 281 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,639 you know, look this about genealogy, my follow in law, 282 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,679 the ancestry my dad does ancestry. Is there a correlation 283 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,639 with law enforcement? She said yeah, I think it's going 284 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,200 to be a thing. And she's I've been reading about 285 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,039 it and this again, this is twenty fourteen. 286 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:36,759 Speaker 2: Wow. 287 00:14:36,879 --> 00:14:39,279 Speaker 4: So she says, hey, I'll go. I had her team, 288 00:14:39,559 --> 00:14:42,399 her DNA team, Kelly's go talk to Colleen at the 289 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,440 conference and give me a backstory to say, is she 290 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:49,360 legit is? Can this before we even have her over 291 00:14:49,639 --> 00:14:52,039 to talk to us? Screen her out, so to speak? 292 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,639 And she said, Troy, she's brilliant. I think she could 293 00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:55,000 help you. 294 00:14:56,919 --> 00:15:00,639 Speaker 5: Very cool And for anybody who doesn't remember, Colleen Fitzpatrick 295 00:15:00,879 --> 00:15:05,159 is actually legitimately a rocket scientist, among the many other 296 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:06,960 sterling qualities. 297 00:15:06,519 --> 00:15:08,039 Speaker 4: That she has. 298 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 5: And so when you met her, Troy, what did you 299 00:15:09,759 --> 00:15:10,240 think of her? 300 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 4: She's this sweet older lady but just was very polished 301 00:15:16,679 --> 00:15:19,080 and spoke in a very direct manner. And I guess 302 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,559 the feeling amongst my squad when she left was, Wow, 303 00:15:23,919 --> 00:15:27,399 that's awesome, But we really don't know Faul like she 304 00:15:27,399 --> 00:15:30,080 She explained it to us, but it completely went over 305 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,080 our heads. And I just they say, we're a bunch 306 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,320 of dumb cops, but we reasonably intelligent people. But yeah, 307 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,879 she's a notch aboves most people. So how she takes 308 00:15:40,919 --> 00:15:43,240 a string of numbers or a strand and comes out 309 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:45,600 with Ally's joke, Maybe it was the flux to past 310 00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:48,440 her from back to the future days. She puts it 311 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,840 in there, She puts it in there, and then it 312 00:15:50,919 --> 00:15:53,960 spits out a surname. And the funny part of that 313 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,960 whole thing was he wanted to charge us, and I 314 00:15:57,039 --> 00:15:59,039 knew as a sergeant. I'd been a sergeant long enough 315 00:15:59,039 --> 00:16:02,120 and played the government game. Aims that if she would 316 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,000 do it on the house, then I could get it 317 00:16:05,039 --> 00:16:09,200 approved tomorrow. If she attached even a dollar to it. 318 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,879 It was going to be this fight, this battle up 319 00:16:11,919 --> 00:16:14,240 to chain of command. And so for seven hundred and 320 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,279 fifty dollars. We battled for about three months and tried 321 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,519 to convince the upper chain that this was going to 322 00:16:20,519 --> 00:16:22,720 be a thing, that we had vetted it out. We 323 00:16:22,759 --> 00:16:24,720 had talked to the prosecutors, we talked to the lab 324 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,279 we'd talked to her, and they really weren't giving her 325 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:32,039 any great secrets of the investigation. She just wanted the numbers. Finally, 326 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,320 they reenlighted it and she was able to do her faith. 327 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: And seven hundred and fifty dollars is the biggest bargain 328 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,720 in the history of law enforcement. 329 00:16:40,879 --> 00:16:41,039 Speaker 4: Too. 330 00:16:41,919 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: It's not like she was asking for a lot of money, No, and. 331 00:16:47,679 --> 00:16:50,399 Speaker 4: She deserved to get paid. I just knew the game, 332 00:16:50,559 --> 00:16:52,840 and I knew that if we could circumvent it. I 333 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,879 also told her, I said, Colleen, the Canal murders are huge, 334 00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:58,399 and if you're this could make your career, This could 335 00:16:58,399 --> 00:17:02,080 make genealogy a sing And she said, I know, she said, 336 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,359 but I'm sticking to it. Sever fifty dollars, and like 337 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,400 I said, she deserved to get paid. And then so 338 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,799 and we were we had volunteers wanting to write checks. 339 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,759 We had we were going to take up a collection. 340 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,160 But in government is marred with red tape. There's no 341 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:19,359 way that even a private entity couldn't fund that. And 342 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,480 we were getting whispers of voodoo and witchcraft, and you 343 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,519 guys have lost your marbles. And to me, cold case 344 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,359 has to be innovative. You have to. You can't just 345 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,799 do what you did yesterday. You have to think outside 346 00:17:31,839 --> 00:17:34,680 the box and look at everything, put your ego at 347 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,759 the door and say, let's go talk to the Vatox Society, 348 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,079 let's go talk to Colleen. Let's use these experts and 349 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,279 do innovative things. But that doesn't always go well in 350 00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:48,200 government because typically it's just what did we do ten 351 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:49,720 years ago, We're going to do the same thing. 352 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 5: So when Colleen did her saying put all the things 353 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,920 through the flux capacitor, the surname that came out was Miller. 354 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,680 Did that ring any bells for you guys? When she said, hey, 355 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,440 it's somebody with the name of Miller. Did that immediately 356 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:09,559 run up the red flags. 357 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,519 Speaker 4: I think the red flags were more of my extended 358 00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:15,640 family that were in town when I got the call, 359 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,599 because I went screeching out of here to get to headquarters, 360 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,400 out of my house to because I needed to do 361 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,799 what the Vdocs Society told us and Richard told us 362 00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:26,680 was check the files. He's got to be in your files. 363 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,480 Say this is a Bundi. They're always in the files. 364 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,720 And so I had Mark, my organization detective. I said, Mark, 365 00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:35,359 would you go to the basement pull the millers and 366 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,359 he said, came back and he's here you go. Would 367 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,799 you like door closed or open? I'm like closing please, 368 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,200 And so I spent the next few minutes looking the 369 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,119 first couple of millers were I was like, nothing too exciting. 370 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,160 And then I hit on this and it was filed 371 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,960 six sixty eight and it was Brian Patrick's billow. 372 00:18:54,319 --> 00:18:56,839 Speaker 2: And he had been a suspect in the early going 373 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,640 of these murders. 374 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, and after the second murder, so they did something 375 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,759 brilliant and they put out that the police farmer did 376 00:19:05,759 --> 00:19:08,480 they put out so the second victim was redressed in 377 00:19:08,599 --> 00:19:12,319 a small girl's bodysuit, and so they took a replica 378 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,119 of that and they put it out to the media 379 00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:17,200 and they said, is anybody know. They tried to trace 380 00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:20,400 back where it was bought and then where it could 381 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,960 be purchased, and then they also again put it out 382 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,559 the media and tips came in from that. One of 383 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:29,960 the tips identified Miller as having that particular bodysuit in 384 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,839 his possession right around the time of the second murder. 385 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 5: Oh god, this guy. So yeah, let's get into the 386 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,119 Brian Patrick Miller of it all. The guy has a 387 00:19:43,799 --> 00:19:48,240 pretty interesting set of hobbies outside of murdering people, and 388 00:19:48,279 --> 00:19:51,079 he's got a pretty interesting nickname which lends its title 389 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,279 to your book, The Zombie Hunter. Explain the hobbies that 390 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,599 lend itself to the name of the Zombie Hunter, please. 391 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. So, well, Milner was a big part. He was 392 00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:05,880 a local celebrity. He was creating around as this Zombie 393 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,400 Hunter persona. He was really into comic con and he 394 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,599 was really into steampunk. And in fact, we took a 395 00:20:12,599 --> 00:20:16,160 lot of flak once we were throbing into Miller from 396 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,359 those groups because they said, Hey, we don't want you 397 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,319 to think that we're all bad, and I'm like, no, 398 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,319 we don't think the draw bad. We just think that 399 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,720 a bad guy is hiding amongst you hiding in plain sight. 400 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,599 So if that was interesting. I didn't even know what 401 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,960 steampunk was. I had to research it. Maybe because I'm older, 402 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,960 I just didn't know. But it's pretty neat what they do. 403 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,880 And again comic CON's neat, and it's pretty prevalent. But he 404 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,039 had taken this tricked out. He'd bought a police card auction, 405 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,279 tripped it out and put zombie Hunter across the back, 406 00:20:45,319 --> 00:20:48,480 and it looked like a police car. He was very smart. 407 00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:50,599 He didn't put it. There's a code in the Phoenix 408 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,680 that says you can't have a certain color otherwise you're 409 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,640 considered a police officer on your patrol car. So he 410 00:20:56,799 --> 00:20:59,039 had the other colors. If he had green and red, 411 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,759 that was amazing. But we had this this mannequin in 412 00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:05,480 the back that was bloody, that was hanging out, and 413 00:21:05,559 --> 00:21:08,599 so it was just all this hyped up seeing this 414 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,000 he had. He was taking pictures with police officers and 415 00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:13,839 they didn't know at the time that he was a 416 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,519 serial killer. He's got this small look on his face 417 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,839 in all the pictures, so it was just it was bizarre. 418 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,119 If he had been some just Joe Small working as 419 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,440 a circle k Sork it may not have been as bizarre, 420 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:27,599 but it got really bizarre when he's part of this 421 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,279 group and he's just parading around with his gatlong gun. 422 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,839 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 423 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:42,440 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 424 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:43,359 mindover Murder. 425 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,799 Speaker 5: Do you feel like that was him taunting the police 426 00:21:47,079 --> 00:21:51,039 by having that police persona and the cruiser and the gun. 427 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,559 Speaker 4: Was that him basically offering a middle finger to the police. 428 00:21:53,559 --> 00:21:57,119 Do you think? Yeah? And so what of the profile 429 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,720 and beatoc pulled us? He said, these guys love the 430 00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:03,119 very intelligent. They loved to do these things called sarcastic ruses. 431 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,960 They'll basically try to They think they're much smarter than 432 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,960 the police. Wait, and a lot of them, I hate 433 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,599 to say it, they get away with it for years. 434 00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:13,279 Typically they eventually screw up most of them. But yeah, 435 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,640 he was basically in essence, it was a sarcastic ruse 436 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,480 of saying, I chilled these girls in horrific fashion years ago, 437 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,920 and you guys have no clue. You're sitting here taking 438 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,519 a picture with me. And he probably he enjoyed that. 439 00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:27,119 There was a thrill to him. 440 00:22:27,559 --> 00:22:31,279 Speaker 2: It's almost beyond hiding in plain sight. He's really making 441 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:36,559 himself the center of attention at these comic con and 442 00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:42,079 events around Phoenix. Wouldn't he work parties and that sort 443 00:22:42,079 --> 00:22:46,759 of thing too with his zombie hunter persona, Yeah. 444 00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 4: He would. And he was also for a period of 445 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,440 time working as security at Saint Vincent's de Paul and 446 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,240 so he you know, part of a tip that came in. 447 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,559 He was stealing women's undergarments, which is typically something that 448 00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:02,720 for working their way up what the thet Ox Society 449 00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:06,680 called the Helix would say. And basically, again he was 450 00:23:06,839 --> 00:23:11,640 just he other than him being a really skinny dude 451 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,119 when at the time of the murders had not in 452 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,039 the military. He was the perfect fit for these crimes 453 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,400 because I think I mentioned in the book that we 454 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,920 were looking for this military badass, this person that should 455 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,480 very practically and efficiently take over too strong athletic women 456 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,519 and then get away with it and spend a lot 457 00:23:29,559 --> 00:23:31,640 of time with him. So he was not that. He 458 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,559 looked to me, he looked a lot like Dahmer in 459 00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:35,200 the photos. 460 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,599 Speaker 5: Yeah he does. Yeah, very upsetting. Are there other local 461 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,920 crimes that you suspect he might be good for it? 462 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,680 Doesn't seem likely that he would have stopped it just too. 463 00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:50,440 Angela and Melanie talk a little bit about the other 464 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,200 crimes that you think or are at least pretty sure 465 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,200 that he got away with. 466 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,519 Speaker 4: So there's a horrific chase of a thirteen year old 467 00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:01,240 disabled girl that was her name was Brandy Meyers. She 468 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,680 was living in a neighborhood and what we call the 469 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,400 Sunny Slope area in kind of North Phoenix, and she 470 00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:09,319 was stowing around collecting books. And it's a sad story 471 00:24:09,319 --> 00:24:12,640 because her sister had gone not collecting books, collecting money 472 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,480 for books, but she had gone selling books a week 473 00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:18,319 prior with her sister and her older sister actually was 474 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,160 younger sister, but went around with her. And so Kristen 475 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,440 decided not to go with Brandy that day and Brandy 476 00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:28,640 was never seen again. Her body's never been found. And 477 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,839 this is something that Brian told his ex wife Amy 478 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,839 when we interviewed Amy, that basically he had committed this crime, 479 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,160 that he had pulled her into his house and basically 480 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,039 in horrific details, how he killed her. So that what 481 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,480 we know he's good for because we have a confession, 482 00:24:44,599 --> 00:24:47,400 we just can't it's through the spouse, and we it's 483 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,720 a nobody commicide and those are difficult. And then we 484 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:52,440 also think there's a girl murdered down in a rock 485 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,680 concert and Tucson prior to our first murder. Her name 486 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,880 was Diana Viccari and she was found in a trash 487 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,119 jumpster with basically cut up pretty horrifically. I think I 488 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,640 can't prove it, but my feeling is if it was Miller. 489 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,720 And then there's another several other there were several other 490 00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:11,039 attacks in the state of Washington when he lived there 491 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,400 that those are documented. He didn't end up killing those women, 492 00:25:14,519 --> 00:25:17,599 luckily they survived. And then there's another one in Tempe 493 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,079 that's possibly all. She was beheaded, and I think twenty 494 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,240 thirteen that's still outstanding, so I know. And then one 495 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,880 of the things that resonates is the FBI profile said 496 00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:29,400 killer would not stop, and that was back I think 497 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,960 they did that in nineteen ninety five or six, So 498 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,079 it's okay, how did he I don't think he stopped. 499 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:36,960 I think he did it. He just maybe got better 500 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,200 at concealing and the evidence and that kind of thing. 501 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 5: So talk to us about how you felt the day 502 00:25:43,839 --> 00:25:47,480 that Brian Patrick Miller was finally brought into custody. Did 503 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:49,839 you have to run a victory lap around the around 504 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,599 the police department, because I sure would have. 505 00:25:53,079 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 4: We were so that our police department at the time, 506 00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:59,240 since we've since moved, but our was a tiny bo rundown, 507 00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:04,000 very ugly concrete building, and there was a beautiful, pristine 508 00:26:04,079 --> 00:26:06,920 lab across the street. So we were in a conference 509 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,599 meeting for a go over a grant or something. It's 510 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,400 pretty boring, pretty low level, and then all of a sudden, 511 00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:15,799 the door busted open, and it was Kelly from the 512 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,759 lab and her team who were like, wait when you guys, 513 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,519 we got we come to you because your lab is 514 00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:23,920 nice and this is a pit over here, so what 515 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,079 are you doing here? She said, you got them. It's him, 516 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,279 It's Miller, And so there were there was this look 517 00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:32,119 of this police and and just kind of again and 518 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,440 so we have three and a half years of our 519 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,359 lives we're working on this case. We all hugged. It 520 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,680 was a moment of excitement, and then the wheels just 521 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,319 came off. Once I told by Lieutenant you had everybody 522 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,119 in there. You had like chiefs high five of each other, 523 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:46,640 and just the best senn hundred fifty dollars we ever 524 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,880 shed was one of them said yeah, we yeah, I 525 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,119 told you yeah. And the wheels and then the swat team. 526 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,519 There were a lot of people on the department that 527 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,000 had that have kids, that saw what this guy did 528 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,640 these women and they wanted to help. So you had 529 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,839 people coming out of the woodwork, and so I think 530 00:27:04,839 --> 00:27:08,359 we had three SWAT teams alone to go to arrest him, 531 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,400 and then a couple other SWAT teams go to his house. 532 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,039 So it was amazing to see that kind of teamwork 533 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,480 come coll ask although as a supervisor, we're trying to 534 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,680 make sure it doesn't get out of control. As a 535 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,519 serial killer investigation, you need to be very careful because 536 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:24,720 this is going to be picked apart by defense attorneys 537 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:25,960 as you move forward to trial. 538 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,559 Speaker 2: What was the actual flip of the switch there the 539 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,440 day she came across from the beautiful lab building across 540 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,799 the way. What had happened? What's the precipitating event that 541 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,759 finally creates the link. 542 00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 4: So we had basically used a horase to get his 543 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,799 DNA and then I'll leave that part for the book. 544 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,519 But she came and basically pulled us said it was 545 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:56,599 a direct match to the unknown male profiles or seamen 546 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,799 basically from back in the day. The ninety two and 547 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,599 ninety three was I don't know how many they get 548 00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:06,200 into like trillions, like one in a trillion chance that 549 00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:10,079 it's not him. So it was there was the Landslide. 550 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,759 It was like, yeah, this definitely is him, Go get him. 551 00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:17,720 Kind was that before he does any more damage. 552 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 5: I still have plenty of friends in Phoenix, and I 553 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,440 remember a couple of them calling and texting and saying, 554 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,200 oh my god, they finally got the Canal killer because 555 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,920 they knew I was in true crime and very aware 556 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,039 of it. But it took what felt like short of 557 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,759 forever to get him into a courtroom. Talk a little 558 00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:43,000 bit about the really long process to get him into 559 00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:47,319 a courtroom and sort of the drama that included getting 560 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,160 him there. And I know that COVID is at least 561 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,240 a part of that, So talk a little bit about 562 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:51,839 that process. 563 00:28:54,279 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, Because so capital murder cases, genuinely we're talking death penalty, 564 00:28:57,759 --> 00:29:01,359 it takes years and typically I think William my team 565 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,039 said this will be about five years out before we 566 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,880 see this go to trial. It did. It was, I 567 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,839 was just but it ended up being eight pagonizing years 568 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,440 for the family. There was COVID, like you said, but 569 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,640 there's also a lot of legal maneuvering what I go 570 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,079 home playing for Shenanigans. That bas we're just trying to 571 00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:22,960 figure out, basically, how to share his life and not 572 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,400 get the deal death Kelly. To be honest, I was 573 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,640 hoping he would lay everything on the table and then 574 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,519 they would just put him in there for national life. 575 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:33,000 He would tell everything else he's done in his life. 576 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:35,279 But that wasn't up to me. That was up to 577 00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:38,039 the prostitutors and the families, and it was decided that 578 00:29:38,079 --> 00:29:40,759 he was definitely going to be a capital murder death 579 00:29:40,759 --> 00:29:43,960 penalty case, and our prosetutors, I must say, did a 580 00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:48,400 phenomenal job. Vincent Berdido and his team they just disappeared 581 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,480 because they were going to get attacked at various levels 582 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:53,000 and they were ready for every attack. 583 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 5: So he pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. Do 584 00:29:58,039 --> 00:30:00,839 you buy the insanity for him? 585 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:05,319 Speaker 4: Yeah? His theory. Basically, they paid a psychologist a lot 586 00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:07,960 of money onto the sense side to put up the 587 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,000 what William referred to as the longest PowerPoint ever created. 588 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,759 It wouldn't have that's oar fastiest show, and so they 589 00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:19,279 basically said that he had this period where he blacked out, 590 00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:22,119 And so I thought about that. I'm like, Okay, if 591 00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:25,160 he blacked out during the murders, then how was he 592 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,160 able to basically take the woman's head and then refrigerate 593 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,519 it or freeze it or do whatever he did, and 594 00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:34,319 then drow it back in the canounts? And is he 595 00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:36,960 blacked out for ten days? Yeah, like it is to me, 596 00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:39,680 it just didn't make it didn't hold water. And then 597 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,480 he's got it. If you go to his home, he's 598 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:44,720 got a picture of a woman's head in the freezer 599 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,640 on the front of his refrigerator. So it's okay, I 600 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,880 do I'm not all this is not adding up to 601 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,920 blacking out. No, this is this was savage, this was fantasy. 602 00:30:54,119 --> 00:30:56,960 This was and then everything in his house really painted 603 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,160 a picture of the true diabolic creature that he is. 604 00:31:01,319 --> 00:31:04,680 This very much woman hating. He got his rocks off 605 00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:06,359 of killing and hurting women. 606 00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 2: Did he ever offer any additional motive? I know none 607 00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:14,759 of this is ever going to make sense to those 608 00:31:14,759 --> 00:31:19,160 of us that are saying he's saying and thoughtful people, 609 00:31:19,319 --> 00:31:23,400 but did anything come out in the interviews with him 610 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,680 that indicated anything beyond his hatred of women. 611 00:31:29,839 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 4: And I always think that there seems like with every 612 00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:34,799 serial killer there's a connection with their mother, and certainly 613 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,279 that was paraded out on trial, and he set that 614 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:40,480 to sense. In the interview, he kind of talked about 615 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,920 how his mother mistreated him, and she, of all things, 616 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,319 was a detention officer for the county where we live 617 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,160 in Americapa County. So he described that he would beat her. 618 00:31:50,319 --> 00:31:52,720 She would beat him with his belt, the duty belt, 619 00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:56,039 and just all kinds of things. But again, I don't 620 00:31:56,079 --> 00:31:57,720 buy that too much because it's like, there's plenty of 621 00:31:57,759 --> 00:32:01,039 people that are mistreated and you know, and turn out 622 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:04,960 to be decent citizens, not killing. And these were fantasies. 623 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,400 And if you go back, there was a letter. There's 624 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,559 so much to these investigations. They're just massive. But on 625 00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:13,640 his eighteenth birthday, his mom shows up at juvie and 626 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,039 says don't let or shows up actually at a precinct 627 00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:18,680 and said, don't let him out of juvie. Look at 628 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,039 this letter, and this letter basically detailed this plan, this 629 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:25,119 is when he's seventeen, of how he's going to basically 630 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,559 kill a woman he constructor and eater, so this is seventeen. 631 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,279 He's fantasizing about this. So to me that he was 632 00:32:33,519 --> 00:32:35,680 we missed him in the system. There were judges in 633 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,480 the juvenile system that said he had sexual deviancy issues. 634 00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:41,400 So we missed in a big way. And I say 635 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,759 we the system because we probably can't obviously detain somebody well, 636 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,279 especially once they're eighteen, but we should have done some 637 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,039 more to help this kid poop. 638 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 5: So I was very interested by the fact that Miller 639 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,680 waved his right to a jury trial, which turned his 640 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,680 case into a bench trial. And maybe this is again 641 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:03,920 because I'm saying or reasonably so, I would have figured 642 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,359 that with a jury trial you'd have a better chance 643 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,839 of getting off unreasonable doubts, because at least one person 644 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,799 in twelve might think, well, maybe that guy was terribly abused. Instead, 645 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,720 his lawyer, I assume, allowed him to say, sure, let's 646 00:33:18,799 --> 00:33:21,160 make it into a bench trial. What did you think 647 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,359 about that decision for him to waive a jury Entirely. 648 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,599 Speaker 4: My personal opinion was dumb. I just couldn't. I could. 649 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,680 I still can't wrap my head around it. Why how 650 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,920 would take those odds of one of the twelve creating 651 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,880 a hung jury any day over going in front of 652 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,039 a judge and let alone, if you knew that the 653 00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:43,240 judge was going to be Suzanne Cohen, who is a 654 00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:48,880 very seasoned sexual assault prosecutor, a homicide prosecutor, was very distinguished. 655 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,720 She was very fair in the trial. But knowing you're 656 00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:54,400 up against that somebody that's not going to see your 657 00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:57,759 wello out of bs so to speak to me again, 658 00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:00,960 I would rather convince somebody on the jury that to 659 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,240 feel sorry for me about how my mom has treated 660 00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:04,880 me and that kind of thing. Still to this day, 661 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,559 don't know why he did that. 662 00:34:06,559 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 2: That was one of the most baffling things for me too. 663 00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:12,280 I could not believe he decided to go with a 664 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,599 bench trial. You've just got the one judge sitting up there. 665 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,039 And as you said, Judge Cohen was fair, but she 666 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,079 I had also probably seen it all and heard it 667 00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:25,840 all in her years as a prosecutor and then as 668 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:31,039 a judge. I thought, speaking of insane, I thought, this 669 00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:33,800 guy has set himself up to have a zero chance 670 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,599 of escaping responsibility for these horrific murders. 671 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,079 Speaker 4: Yeah again, I think he Sometimes they think they're smarter 672 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:46,000 than everybody else. And maybe he thought he was going 673 00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:49,039 to gain the system. I thought his defense team did 674 00:34:49,079 --> 00:34:52,679 a great job of muddying the water enough to basically 675 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,400 create a Hey could could he have? He had all 676 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,119 these issues. I was obvious so they did that. They 677 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:02,400 were just trying to spare his life. They didn't want 678 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,679 the death penalty. I don't blame them. I think again, 679 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,360 this is all directed by him, and I think he 680 00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:11,519 sinspired them. I heard and basically for his appeals, he's 681 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,159 said no more of you guys. 682 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 5: Did you ever have a moment in the courtroom where 683 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,119 you were like, oh God, I don't know how this 684 00:35:18,159 --> 00:35:20,840 is going to go, or were you sure that you 685 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,800 know it was going to go? 686 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 4: In law enforcement's favor, there's that old saying it ain't 687 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,159 over till you know it's over, over till the fatty sings, 688 00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:35,880 kind of saying I was not sure. I thought we'd 689 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,800 put together a great case. But I've been to enough 690 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:44,840 trials to see the technicality create a major issue. So 691 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,719 I think William and I. William had to attend every 692 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,079 day of the trial. He's one of my detectives, and 693 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,840 I was there most of the time. But I family responsibility. 694 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,079 That kind of thing, so I couldn't be there all 695 00:35:54,079 --> 00:35:58,320 the time, but we were both like fingers crossed through that. 696 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,039 When Susan Cohen, judge was reading the verdict, we're just like, 697 00:36:02,159 --> 00:36:04,599 I hope this goes away for the first Listen to 698 00:36:04,599 --> 00:36:06,000 the families they've been drowell. 699 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,599 Speaker 2: Did they attend the trial itself? 700 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 4: Actually, they were able to attend virtually. The Melanie, the 701 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,559 younger victim's mother, was a nurse and she had moved. 702 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,960 She said, I can't live in Phoenix anymore after the murder, 703 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,519 as she had moved to another state, and Angela, the 704 00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:28,599 first victim's mother, had never moved. They were quite away 705 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:30,920 the way, so they again they were able to attend virtually, 706 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,320 And I think that was good for them not to 707 00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:36,320 have to really see him, but not to have to 708 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:37,320 be in a court with him. 709 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:40,679 Speaker 2: That actually might be the ideal solution for a situation 710 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,719 like that, or it would be horrible to be sitting 711 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,000 day after day, probably feet away from the man that 712 00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:52,440 was charged with killing their daughters. And maybe the virtual 713 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,880 setup is maybe the best interim step. They could see 714 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,840 and hear what was going on without having to be 715 00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:02,400 in the room with this greet. 716 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, and that brings up that I've become 717 00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:11,559 friends with Harley Feldman, and Harley his daughter was brutally 718 00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:15,360 murdered in Scottsdale, Arizona, in I believe it was twenty 719 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,800 thirteen or twenty fourteen. They ended up solving that using 720 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,679 familial DNA in twenty eighteen. It was the first case 721 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,800 of Arizona that had been used to use familiar DNA. 722 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,239 But he's been in trial. I think it's still willing 723 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,519 to trial, and I feel a horrible he is. Him 724 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:33,519 and his wife are phenomenal people, just get solid people, 725 00:37:33,559 --> 00:37:35,840 and to have to go through that and see the 726 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,880 killer is to me beyond I agree. 727 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 5: I like to sume idea, were the families given the 728 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,679 opportunity to make victims impact statements and did they Actually. 729 00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:51,599 Speaker 4: They did, And I've only my mother died during this investigation, 730 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,159 and I don't I'm not a crier. I'm a tough cop. 731 00:37:54,599 --> 00:37:58,280 But that was that brought me to well, very close, 732 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,719 if not to tears. And one of the statements, especially 733 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,599 from Melanie's sister, said, if you tune into this trial 734 00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:09,119 for the first three weeks or after the first three weeks, 735 00:38:09,159 --> 00:38:12,119 you would have thought that that Brian Miller was the victim, 736 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,800 and she refocused this back to her sister and Angela 737 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,599 the other victim. And I thought that Vincent Berdino did 738 00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:22,280 a great job. He during his closing statements, he put 739 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,679 up pictures of both girls, both women, and said, these 740 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,320 are the true victims. So it refocused everything back to 741 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,679 them because it was central. That's so many months were 742 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,719 spent by the good doctor with the parapoint talking about 743 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,840 Brian's illnesses and his mental health and that kind of faith. 744 00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, the two of us are both just rolling our eyes. 745 00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:44,880 This had to be so horrible to listen to this 746 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:50,360 doctor go on for days about how what a tough 747 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,599 life that Brian Patrick Miller has had and how he 748 00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:56,159 deserves every consideration. 749 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, the one. In fact, one of my sarcastic detectives 750 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,800 coined the phrase the doctor talks a lot. That's what 751 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,800 he said, and it was I'm sure the guy his 752 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,320 heart's in the right place. He had the job to do, 753 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,679 but I know he made thousands of dollars on the back. 754 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,719 So the citizens trying to basically show that Miller was 755 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,679 this good person. He's quiet and he's reserved, and he'd 756 00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:26,079 never heard a fly and look he's got this daughter. 757 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,400 But meanwhile, I'm just I can't escape what I saw 758 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,960 in the house and what I saw on the crime 759 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,079 scene photos, and I'm just like, Wow, this is a 760 00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:37,679 true monster. You can't let all the spoken beers see 761 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:38,079 through that. 762 00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 2: Were any of the original detectives that had worked the 763 00:39:42,519 --> 00:39:46,119 earlier incidents, because we're way back to the early nineties 764 00:39:46,639 --> 00:39:49,800 with Angela and Melanie, Were any of them still around? 765 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 4: Yes, A gentleman by the name of Russ Davis. He 766 00:39:54,559 --> 00:39:57,360 was an original case agent, so it was his case 767 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,679 he had retired and talked to him. He was a 768 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,239 tell of a good detective, very thorough. He retired in 769 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,519 ninety seven, so about five years after the first murder, 770 00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:10,639 in about four after the second, and that case haunted him. 771 00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:14,800 He worked the crap out of those cases. Mike Miischliss 772 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,000 was the scene agent. He had retired in twenty eleven 773 00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:20,599 kind of or twenty ten when we took over the case. 774 00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:23,880 Both and matter of fact, Mike testified at trial and 775 00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:27,159 he did a great job on the scene. I always say, 776 00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:30,800 if the original investigators and the lab and the CSI, 777 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,360 if they don't do their job right on the front Edge, 778 00:40:33,679 --> 00:40:36,079 then we've got no shot on the back end as 779 00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:38,840 a cold case team. Pseudos to them for doing what 780 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,639 they did over the years, and even the sotos, the 781 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,039 lab work, everything was just had to be sixteen otherwise 782 00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:48,000 it would have been attacked. 783 00:40:50,119 --> 00:40:53,639 Speaker 5: Miller was given the death penalty as his punishment deservedly. 784 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,119 I would say, do you think he's actually going to 785 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,400 see an execution data. I know that penalty cases get 786 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,199 a ton of appeals. Do you think we're actually going 787 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,679 to see a day where we have an evening news 788 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,000 story that Brian Patrick Miller has been executed. 789 00:41:11,519 --> 00:41:15,039 Speaker 4: That's a great question. I look at the appeals that 790 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:18,880 I look at the different political governors get in say 791 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,639 I'm not doing them, or I'm doing them. This last governor, 792 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,400 I think two have so far have actually been executed 793 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,480 under her watch. But Miller, I don't even know his 794 00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:31,599 first appeal has gone through. I don't think it's gone 795 00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:35,599 through Edge where so it just takes it just takes years, 796 00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:37,760 as a twenty years. I wish that he would just 797 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,320 lay it all out there and tell all and get 798 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,639 it off his chest. And that would be because we 799 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,920 never did find and we kept telling us that beat 800 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,599 Ox society that these guys have a layer where they 801 00:41:48,679 --> 00:41:51,320 go back to and they relive, and they fantasize, and 802 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,400 they keep pictures and videos that we never were able 803 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,239 to find that, and I cover that in the book. 804 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,559 We beat the bushes, so to speech, and did not 805 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,440 sign anything like that. But my guess is he has 806 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,199 it somewhere. Why not. 807 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 5: The book is Chasing Down the Zombie Hunter by Troy Hellman. Troy, 808 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,760 where can everybody find your book? 809 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,119 Speaker 4: It's available in all formats on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, 810 00:42:18,159 --> 00:42:22,159 Simon and Schuster published it, and even in Walmart, Target. 811 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,199 Pretty much any major or any book retailer has it. 812 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,480 I would appreciate it. And if you'll always say if 813 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,639 you like the book, please give me a good rating 814 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,559 on Reads and or Amazon. 815 00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:34,599 Speaker 2: And we're going to be seeing you at Crime Con 816 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,239 in a matter of a few months. 817 00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:42,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm excited. It'll be my first time and as 818 00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:44,079 a great event with a lot of people that are 819 00:42:44,079 --> 00:42:47,039 trying to do good things to basically spread the word 820 00:42:47,199 --> 00:42:50,440 and help with these cases. We are looking forward to 821 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,880 seeing you there. Troy. Thank you for joining us today. 822 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:54,400 Thank you both. 823 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of 824 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,800 Mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 825 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:01,639 see you next time. 826 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,320 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 827 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:16,880 Another Dog Productions. 828 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,760 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 829 00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:23,519 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 830 00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:26,199 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 831 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,679 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 832 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,599 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 833 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 834 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,360 Murders on Facebook. 835 00:43:39,079 --> 00:43:42,119 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 836 00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:43,760 Bill Thomas five six. 837 00:43:44,239 --> 00:44:10,599 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.