Speaker 1: You see something's going to happen. What what's going to happen?
Speaker 2: What you.
Speaker 1: Help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects Sorrow a little bit
Speaker 1: late here, that was my fault. I was talking to
Speaker 1: Jim before the show, but we finally got it going.
Speaker 1: And today you just got me Cardinal Electric Head, and
Speaker 1: we got Frida Jin with us, and we will be
Speaker 1: talking about this Apernal triad and the Kabbala Jin. In
Speaker 1: case people don't know who you are yet, which I'm
Speaker 1: sure they do know, Please let everybody know what is
Speaker 1: up with Jena Ninja.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Electric card and I'll appreciate that. In
Speaker 2: stry So, I am Jenna NINJAA Ho's a show called
Speaker 2: Threshold Saints. It's a show about metamagic speculative ontologies. And
Speaker 2: also we'll say vice president or co president of the
Speaker 2: Gray Lodge, which now has a YouTube channel, and we
Speaker 2: are in the midst of doing some really interesting speculative
Speaker 2: archaeology series. So that will be Friday Live. We're doing
Speaker 2: a roundtable on speculative archaeologies of the New World, So America.
Speaker 2: So everybody brings their weirdest, craziest conspiracy theory and they.
Speaker 1: Tell us what it is abut America, and that is
Speaker 1: in your spaces.
Speaker 2: Yes, everybody can follow me or any of the other
Speaker 2: co hosts at Wouknrie Born you'll see I post the
Speaker 2: posters all the time or at Threshold Saints, which is
Speaker 2: the show count and that's also the account on ig
Speaker 2: and I also post the spaces and the posters to that.
Speaker 2: And so I'll have an episode with Simon from Bramastra,
Speaker 2: who've nick he's a great dude, and so i have
Speaker 2: an episode with him coming out, and also an episode
Speaker 2: with Ashley from Union of announ same changer of So
Speaker 2: look forward to that, and I've got so much coming up.
Speaker 2: I'm a little behind this week, but yeah, it's rock
Speaker 2: and rolling, and I appreciate you invited me to be here.
Speaker 2: I love talking about Kabalah. It's been something that Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's definitely like been a part of my Twitter presence
Speaker 2: personality and also a big part of my show. And
Speaker 2: I've always said like a big part of that is
Speaker 2: from you and how you were an early sort of
Speaker 2: just interralocutor of Kabala in the occult podcasting sphere, like
Speaker 2: nobody really discussed it the way you did, and so
Speaker 2: when you did, I was like, yes, this is like
Speaker 2: someone who has like understanding, this is someone who has
Speaker 2: like gone up the tree. And from those experiences, I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I actually have gone up. I didn't
Speaker 2: really realize it, Nick, I'm just being honest. At first
Speaker 2: I knew I had, but it's it didn't it didn't
Speaker 2: have boundaries. Maybe it didn't like it wasn't cohesive like
Speaker 2: the memory.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, yes, y yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Then studying the tree and studying like the Jewish cabalaisy
Speaker 2: gave me a lot better grasp of what I experienced,
Speaker 2: what I saw, and how to sort of understand it.
Speaker 2: And then but I just want to say I've always
Speaker 2: said this is that listening to you on some of
Speaker 2: your old series Scarlet Woman number one obviously that really
Speaker 2: helped me. So it's really interesting to do this full circle.
Speaker 2: And thank you so much for writing me.
Speaker 1: No so no, thank you. That's that's great that you
Speaker 1: even settle that. I really appreciate that. And the Scarlet
Speaker 1: Woman is another series that h I mean technically I
Speaker 1: already did the kabbala a while back ago with Looks,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to redo it with you. Even the
Speaker 1: Scarlet Horse series is something that I've thought about redoing.
Speaker 1: So you know, maybe we could all be a part
Speaker 1: of that again in the future at some point, you know,
Speaker 1: because I even could say just from my own experiences
Speaker 1: and learning, I mean that was three years ago when
Speaker 1: I probably did the Scarlet Horror or the other thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've learned and grown even from there, so
Speaker 1: be a totally different look at it again.
Speaker 2: So what you said, I think is super important just
Speaker 2: to like lay the foundation of what I'm going to
Speaker 2: talk about at least, but probably also what you're going
Speaker 2: to talk about is that your perspective does change, and
Speaker 2: my perspective has also changed. So I've done the Cabala
Speaker 2: and Tntra series with you that's six and a half hours,
Speaker 2: like straight up like serious Cabala Tontra discussion. I did
Speaker 2: the eleven part series with Lee that was obviously how
Speaker 2: I started podcasting, and so that was also having sufferatic
Speaker 2: kind of experiences as I recorded, as you've discussed when
Speaker 2: doing Scarlet Horror. So I've had that where you've recorded,
Speaker 2: but I wasn't totally aware, let's say, like I was
Speaker 2: kind of like, yeah, they were magical experiences and I
Speaker 2: was having them but I wasn't totally aware that I
Speaker 2: was having them. It was more I would listen back
Speaker 2: in recording it and be like, oh, I actually understand
Speaker 2: one hundred percent when I was talking about I can
Speaker 2: see it in my mind's eye, So I get it.
Speaker 2: It's your perspective changes, and the tree should change. It
Speaker 2: should be very dynamic. It should not. I think this
Speaker 2: is just me, Jen, but I think it should be dynamic,
Speaker 2: and I think it shouldn't be so fixed. And I
Speaker 2: think when you were talking about Supernel, Triad, Saturn and Benna,
Speaker 2: that is fixed. But maybe the Ketter and Hookema are
Speaker 2: not necessarily malleable, but they're more unfixed. They're more maybe clockwork.
Speaker 2: Maybe they can, you know, change position. So I think
Speaker 2: it's an interesting idea. At least keep in mind that
Speaker 2: it can be flexible and different people have different ways
Speaker 2: to describe it. That's super important too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean even just when you did the Contra series,
Speaker 1: just like the art that you even showed something completely
Speaker 1: different than I would most people would even be used
Speaker 1: to in occultism my opinion, you know, So even it
Speaker 1: was just it's interesting to see how it was, you know,
Speaker 1: how it's looked at or presented in other ways.
Speaker 2: So that's the whole thing, is that I think even
Speaker 2: with ma like we did the show with Mario the
Speaker 2: other day, and it like dawned on me that all
Speaker 2: of us sort of recognize, at least in our own
Speaker 2: kind of languages, that maybe there is a kind of well,
Speaker 2: there's different ways to describe it. Maybe you say primordial,
Speaker 2: maybe you say perennial. I saw Solar in the chat,
Speaker 2: so I'll shout him out. We had a discussion about
Speaker 2: traditionalism versus primordialism in his episode on Evla, So it's
Speaker 2: really interesting actually, But yeah, I think that that was
Speaker 2: what I came to that understanding when we were on
Speaker 2: the roundtable, is that, yeah, we kind of all recognize
Speaker 2: that maybe there is a I'm going to use a
Speaker 2: very tulemic term, aonic shift, and yeah, and so I
Speaker 2: think that we kind of have to also acknowledge that
Speaker 2: maybe Kabala exists in that kind of shifting landscape of
Speaker 2: how we perceive the world, rather than saying it's fixed.
Speaker 2: Like I know a lot of people, especially when I
Speaker 2: first started doing the spaces and discussing it, like you
Speaker 2: were kind of like a Maverick and just doing it
Speaker 2: on your show, whereas I had to kind of I
Speaker 2: kind of did in my own way translate that into Twitter,
Speaker 2: so I would talk about it and people were like
Speaker 2: very resistant because it was like, oh, you're associated with
Speaker 2: the Jays and this. And then I quickly made friends
Speaker 2: with Saschke. It brought him up many times on the show.
Speaker 2: He's obviously been on my show a few times, and
Speaker 2: he introduced me to this idea of using sailor Moon
Speaker 2: to discuss Kabala. And honestly, it was as important for
Speaker 2: me to have that connection and shout out Saschke as
Speaker 2: it was for me to listen to you to become like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm like a mediocre podcast or
Speaker 2: whatever now, but it has helped me so much, like
Speaker 2: that idea that I could translate kabbala or tantra because
Speaker 2: maybe those are the same thing. I've said this before,
Speaker 2: maybe you can translate that into pop culture, but also
Speaker 2: maybe pop culture is also relaying those kinds of suffaratic ideas.
Speaker 2: So that made it a lot more easier for me
Speaker 2: to start speaking about it more openly instead of being like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is like the fore an audience and magicians like
Speaker 2: they people weren't you know, people aren't normy. So they
Speaker 2: and I don't mean that in a pejorative, they just
Speaker 2: couldn't instantly recognize that when I would drop cabalistic language
Speaker 2: or oh yeah, so I started incorporating these kinds of
Speaker 2: more people love to do discuss it in context to
Speaker 2: anime especially, or people seem to give me the most
Speaker 2: feedback when I do that, and so I just yeah,
Speaker 2: that has helped me a lot. And so people think
Speaker 2: that you have to be some great magician too and
Speaker 2: study cabal for fifty years. And maybe that's true. And
Speaker 2: I agree that the stages were very extremely like they
Speaker 2: were magicians. They were like writing the drive to s
Speaker 2: neck likes to say, they were going all the way
Speaker 2: and you can hear it, you can read like you
Speaker 2: can read. I'm a big fan of Rabbi Cordovero Ramuk
Speaker 2: and his book The Orchard of Pomegrants. Yeah, Orchard of Pomegrants.
Speaker 2: I believe I might be mixing up with.
Speaker 1: The Oh yeah, hey, I was going to say, wait,
Speaker 1: was that Israeli who reads?
Speaker 2: Well, there, one is the garden of pomegrands. One is
Speaker 2: the orchard. So I always forget and my Hebrew is
Speaker 2: very bad, as everybody knows who's come to the spaces,
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to pretend. But it was a
Speaker 2: really foundational, really important book. I bought them off eBay,
Speaker 2: costs like nine hundred bucks. Oh yeah, thirteen thirteen volumes
Speaker 2: in English, and so I as I was doing a
Speaker 2: TNTRA series, I read through them and then in preparation
Speaker 2: to come on and do it with you, so I
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, this is really interesting, and so how
Speaker 2: can we bring this like medieval knowledge and update it?
Speaker 2: Sort of? I know, I rambled for a really long time.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but I wanted to bring it into twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five and like uh and like let people know
Speaker 2: that it's out there, Like it's not just in those books,
Speaker 2: Like you don't have to buy books from eBay or
Speaker 2: a Books or whatever like an it's aquarium book dealer.
Speaker 2: It's actually there and it's actually somewhat preserved and somewhat understandable.
Speaker 2: So I always found that really interesting. Just that it's
Speaker 2: sort of been my Kabala evolution is how I would say.
Speaker 2: It's like started from a very traditionalist kind of perspective. Like, yes,
Speaker 2: we have to not talk about this thing in Buddhism
Speaker 2: or this thing in contra, but we're going to try
Speaker 2: and present it in like a very traditional, very middle
Speaker 2: pillar way. And I still try and do that, but
Speaker 2: I realized in twenty twenty five again it is you
Speaker 2: have to kind of update for your audience.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, I even think with Kabala, it's like
Speaker 1: even Haughts, it's like, where do I even start to
Speaker 1: try to explain this to people who don't understand that anything,
Speaker 1: you know, then where it's like, uh, there's even been
Speaker 1: times in the past where I didn't want touch it
Speaker 1: because I was like too worried about like, oh, all
Speaker 1: the people are going to like think I don't know
Speaker 1: what the fuck I'm talking about. And then it's like
Speaker 1: I'm not to sound like an asshole, but it it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, all right, I'm kind of like half in
Speaker 1: the conspiracy world and half in the occult world, and
Speaker 1: like nothing nothing the conspiracy world, they know jackshit about
Speaker 1: fucking Cabala, So why should be intimidated? And then I
Speaker 1: half to people that are in the occult fucking community,
Speaker 1: no jack shit about Kabali anyways, So why the funck.
Speaker 1: Should I be intimidated? You know? If anything, I just
Speaker 1: gotta be worried about. My lesson is understanding what the
Speaker 1: fuck I'm even saying.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, this was even the genesis of the Gray
Speaker 2: launch was I needed to be able to speak about
Speaker 2: it in the way that you spoke about it. I
Speaker 2: needed to be free and open in my expression of it,
Speaker 2: especially when I was really deep in and so there
Speaker 2: was a group of people interested in this kinds of
Speaker 2: crazy ideas that I would spend sometimes or weave, as
Speaker 2: Joshua the Brash likes to say, you know, and so
Speaker 2: that's basically what it was. I was like, I have
Speaker 2: to actually like solar is high level and but maybe
Speaker 2: not wasn't quite where I was at that moment. But
Speaker 2: the rest of them, it's not that they were bad,
Speaker 2: but I had to kind of bring them up. It's understanding.
Speaker 2: That's how I felt, and so that was how I started.
Speaker 2: It was like, I need to be able to relay
Speaker 2: it in a way that makes sense. So that's what
Speaker 2: I that's what I try to do, so I totally
Speaker 2: relate to what you're saying. Is like so many people
Speaker 2: in the occult world, they will say they do not
Speaker 2: know Kabala. I know you had a guest on, a
Speaker 2: very important guest who said that he didn't. Whether I
Speaker 2: believe that or not, it's irrelevant, but I'm not sure
Speaker 2: that that's one hundred percent true. And because for me,
Speaker 2: Kabala is like as a foundational map to explain sort
Speaker 2: of all metaphysics.
Speaker 1: I'll even put it this way onto Sorry dh, Yeah,
Speaker 1: just real quick to interrupt you. Sorry, I'll even put
Speaker 1: it this way. If you have you go to a
Speaker 1: lodge or a place that has a checkerboard floor, it's
Speaker 1: attached to Kabala. So that's my opinion.
Speaker 2: I agree. I think it's as simple.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wanted to add that.
Speaker 2: I think you can map all systems to the treaty,
Speaker 2: and I think you can also look at the treat
Speaker 2: in order to reach different conclusions. Like people like are
Speaker 2: very familiar with Hegel and Hegelian dialectic like that, Yes,
Speaker 2: that is Kabbala, that's Kabala. He's a very good Kabbalist.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean I agree with him. I don't agree
Speaker 2: with every you know, Sage Master, a modern American magician.
Speaker 2: I don't agree with all of the many of them.
Speaker 2: But that's okay. I can still use some of the
Speaker 2: things they say and sort of you know, helps refine
Speaker 2: my perspective, is what I would say. So a lot
Speaker 2: of these things that like conspiracy people do talk about
Speaker 2: are kabbalistic. They may not know a lot of them
Speaker 2: probably don't know.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, I would agree with that. And you
Speaker 1: know what's another thing too, I think I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: I just just throw this out there, and it's probably
Speaker 1: like preaching to the choir or like nobody really that
Speaker 1: listens to our show is probably need to hear this.
Speaker 1: But like you know, you can also get a lot
Speaker 1: of people who discredit this shit because they just hate
Speaker 1: fucking Jewish people. And it's like, well, if you want
Speaker 1: to understand what just supposed a bad guys doing to you,
Speaker 1: don't you want to understand? It's just I don't know,
Speaker 1: like they'll just credit it saying, oh, let's say satanic
Speaker 1: Jewish shit, And I was like, oh, okay, that's all
Speaker 1: it is. This is sid is that old Dixon demons?
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: So this is something nick that I've personally encountered many times,
Speaker 2: especially with my own show and also Twitter, not to
Speaker 2: reference and be like a very online person. But I
Speaker 2: just think it's important, like what you just said, just
Speaker 2: because something has an origin, those people actually are very
Speaker 2: good cabalist. You want to talk about people who are
Speaker 2: very excellent calls, Jewish people are actually quite good cabals,
Speaker 2: And so it's okay to learn from people who actually
Speaker 2: understand uh maybe deeper things. Doesn't mean you have to
Speaker 2: agree with them politically or you know, uh, it doesn't
Speaker 2: mean anything. That's what I'm saying. So I personally think
Speaker 2: that they are good akbal, So I'm going to read
Speaker 2: their texts. But I agree with you that often the
Speaker 2: knowledge of kabala does get maybe intentionally hidden under this
Speaker 2: kind of label of aspersion or which is a cabalistic
Speaker 2: act to accuse like something of being satanic, of that
Speaker 2: which you also are m it's actually the klipu of Geverra.
Speaker 2: I know we're not talking about Gevra today, but yeah,
Speaker 2: you know it is a it is an interesting like
Speaker 2: cabalistic note is that. Yeah, absolutely too. So don't discard things.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's it's useful. I think you have to.
Speaker 2: That's what wisdom science is, right, like explore it, test
Speaker 2: it for yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I totally, but uh, I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: we'll get into it. If that's okay with you.
Speaker 2: We'll yes, absolutely, I'm sorry, we don't. That's all I
Speaker 2: do a long intro.
Speaker 1: That's totally funny. Do We're good. We're good. Like I said,
Speaker 1: if the stakes too long, we'll just do a part
Speaker 1: two or just you know, leave whatever and which covered
Speaker 1: in the next one. Because that is that is the
Speaker 1: point of hopefully of this is that we will actually
Speaker 1: do the whole tree. It's just that I was telling Jen.
Speaker 1: I was like, I really don't think we could do
Speaker 1: the whole tree in one episode and do it justice.
Speaker 1: I'm able to do the supernal triad first.
Speaker 2: So I think this makes a lot of sense. I
Speaker 2: think that because of like as I explain how I've
Speaker 2: come through like different understandings, maybe not even greater, but
Speaker 2: I think this is the This is something that Nick
Speaker 2: and I used to kind of bicker, not bicker, but
Speaker 2: in a funny way that Nick would always talk about
Speaker 2: descending the tree and I would always talk about us
Speaker 2: sending the tree. And so but now I'm actually ready
Speaker 2: because it took me a long time to sort of
Speaker 2: accept the descending directionality but now I'm actually okay with it.
Speaker 2: I've sort of like reconciled that paradox. So I think
Speaker 2: it's perfect timing for us to do this pernal triad.
Speaker 1: Good for you? Uh yes, so I guess, Cather, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I guess. So if you want to start
Speaker 1: off with that, maybe how you look at it, and
Speaker 1: then I'll go whatever. I know you also have videos
Speaker 1: to me, so that's right, how you wanted to thought
Speaker 1: it off. Let's put pressure on.
Speaker 2: It, no Keller, Okay, so let's talk about Ketner. It's love,
Speaker 2: it's white, that's usually how it's considered, but it can
Speaker 2: actually have two other primary colors. Now Deon Fortune talks
Speaker 2: about like the gold flashing and the assia the lower
Speaker 2: world component. That's okay, Yes, I agree with that. I
Speaker 2: do agree with that, but I actually think that there
Speaker 2: is a pink component and that is why that shows
Speaker 2: off in.
Speaker 1: Different Yes, yes, yes, that is interesting.
Speaker 2: So that's my slight difference in interpretation. And it does
Speaker 2: make sense in a ton trick way which I won't
Speaker 2: get into, but it it there is something there. I think.
Speaker 2: I think that that you can make you can make
Speaker 2: an argument for that, and so and people tend to
Speaker 2: also overemphasize the gold elements. I've noticed this a lot,
Speaker 2: like modern magicians, modern cabalists, when they're talking about catter,
Speaker 2: they tend to overemphasize that. But I think it's important
Speaker 2: to say that it's it's beyond materiality. So it's the
Speaker 2: you could say it's the breath of God. Even the
Speaker 2: expression into the world. Well, and you know, it's like
Speaker 2: it's so pristine, it's so infinite, it's so powerful and
Speaker 2: it's potential that it's sort of ineffable in a way.
Speaker 2: And I know that other cabalists like to say, like, oh,
Speaker 2: I I'm so and so for those are really getting
Speaker 2: more into the ineffable. But I like to say that
Speaker 2: Keather is at least the point of like ineffable sort
Speaker 2: of realization.
Speaker 1: Yeah, some people say it's like the prim oral point
Speaker 1: of like k creation.
Speaker 2: I agree with that. That makes sense to me in
Speaker 2: a tontric way. The goddess who I placed there in
Speaker 2: our series that I did with you, I said, is Chinamasa.
Speaker 2: So he is the goddess of both creation and destruction
Speaker 2: at the same time, a paradox.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting just to throw this in there,
Speaker 1: you know, again not saying that the guy was onto anything.
Speaker 1: I'll just throws it in there. But you know, even
Speaker 1: Crowley he looked at I think as pain as being
Speaker 1: associated with Kether and Earth or Kether and Melcouth, saying
Speaker 1: that it's like, you know, I mean if you look
Speaker 1: at the tree, I mean, it'll comes from Kether anyway.
Speaker 1: So if you consider that, I guess like God or
Speaker 1: whatever you want to look at it. It's in every
Speaker 1: sphere it regardless. But I do you find kind of
Speaker 1: like what you had just said. I do find it interesting.
Speaker 1: It is almost maybe the same idea.
Speaker 2: So I have to say I agree with Croley in
Speaker 2: this instance, and I also agree with what you said
Speaker 2: is like there is so it depends. So every sufferer
Speaker 2: you could say, has five densities or seven. You've talked
Speaker 2: about this many times, and I've talked about it quite
Speaker 2: a few times as well. But different systems have different preferences.
Speaker 2: So I agree with though that that idea of the
Speaker 2: five density system is just an easier way to sort
Speaker 2: of reconcile the numerical issues that arise with seven, and
Speaker 2: not that seven is an imperfect number, but you get
Speaker 2: it's you're supposed to be clean. It's everything's it's very autistic, right,
Speaker 2: so you want it to all be clean, numbers, clean,
Speaker 2: names of God, whatever. So the fifth density is really
Speaker 2: daf as well. That's how originally in like the older
Speaker 2: older Cabala, they would understand death is in every sphere
Speaker 2: and it's at that fifth density, and it's that sort
Speaker 2: of crystalline blue color. So I agree that it's it's there.
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily its own separate suffer, but for counting purposes,
Speaker 2: it can be really useful to have a to have
Speaker 2: it appear on the tree. And I think that you
Speaker 2: do experience it. I think it's a lot to do
Speaker 2: with our consciousness too, So I think that that's why
Speaker 2: I like to place it in the fifth and I
Speaker 2: think that that's a it's just a neater, tidier system.
Speaker 2: But of course some people do teach the seven a
Speaker 2: density method, and that's perfectly okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even for people who mean, I know,
Speaker 1: like even on the you mentioned it before with the colors,
Speaker 1: how's there's the uh oh god, was it a what's
Speaker 1: the first one in the four densities of the spheres
Speaker 1: with the colors? I know, it goes a b ya.
Speaker 1: That's how I remembered, sire or is it a? And
Speaker 1: then there's bread, then yets and then whenever I always
Speaker 1: get those two confused. I mean, even right there, that
Speaker 1: shows that there's at least I mean, there's four different
Speaker 1: colors or I guess ideas of each spirit to begin with.
Speaker 1: Just just looking at a cabalistic map, you'll see that
Speaker 1: on some of them. So I mean, just right there,
Speaker 1: it shows that there's different densities or ideas. I've even
Speaker 1: wondered because of that. It's getting a little bit off,
Speaker 1: you know, on the rest of the tree. But you know,
Speaker 1: when you start getting into the whole color aspect, is
Speaker 1: there like four different like densities or whatever to like
Speaker 1: kind of show the whole frequency change into going into
Speaker 1: something else, into a different color as That sounds weird,
Speaker 1: but you know something with that, I think in the
Speaker 1: densities it's it's more of like maybe maybe somewhat of
Speaker 1: like the path going between each sphere. I wonder if
Speaker 1: that has something to do with it, like to change
Speaker 1: and be from one thing to the next.
Speaker 2: So I think this makes a lot of sense. I
Speaker 2: think this a lot of makes a lot of sense experientially,
Speaker 2: and I also think it makes sense in the more
Speaker 2: medieval Cabala. I think this is what Ramic would argue,
Speaker 2: is that the paths are found in the suffer through
Speaker 2: the experiences. Yes, so exactly what Nick's saying is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I would agree with that too. Rather than they just
Speaker 2: appear they're no, I think it actually has a lot
Speaker 2: more to do with our consciousness, how we perceive and
Speaker 2: also control what is happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes look at the pats. It's almost like the
Speaker 1: alchemy between the views.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree. You can look at the there's
Speaker 2: some Jewish texts that show like the letters traveling through
Speaker 2: the sephra, like through the density of the four worlds,
Speaker 2: like Nick was talking about, And so the paths really
Speaker 2: represent like the the aggregates of like you need a
Speaker 2: vessel to contain something, and so the word is it
Speaker 2: can be a letter, but it can also be light,
Speaker 2: and it can also be sound, but you need a
Speaker 2: vessel to sort of travel through from one sepherra to
Speaker 2: the next. So later on they started mapping the letters
Speaker 2: directly onto the paths, but that's not really how it
Speaker 2: was originally understood. It's really about light traveling through the paths,
Speaker 2: not really focusing on the paths. But that's a more
Speaker 2: hermetic exercise, right, It's very hode like to say, oh,
Speaker 2: I want to understand this thing that I'm seeing, this
Speaker 2: thing that I'm creating.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. Uh, Keither, there was some things
Speaker 1: that I just you know, before you go on, you see,
Speaker 1: I was, you know, when you mentioned the crown, I
Speaker 1: met the crown. We were talking about gold before, and
Speaker 1: kether is considered a I think Hebrew for crown, so
Speaker 1: like even that whole uh, Like, I guess the you're
Speaker 1: talking about, like the gold flecked in there or whatever
Speaker 1: the gold is I think is mixed in with u
Speaker 1: kether And like one of the things I even wondered,
Speaker 1: like if that is even kind of why they even
Speaker 1: call a crown in a sense because there is gold
Speaker 1: flecked in there. I don't know, like how you were
Speaker 1: saying that people consider you know, when they go on
Speaker 1: about the gold with Keather, I think maybe that might
Speaker 1: have something to do with it. Maybe, But even Keather,
Speaker 1: I know has also have you ever like came across
Speaker 1: where they try to explain it as like a crystallization.
Speaker 2: Interesting that you bring this up nick because in contra
Speaker 2: we would describe that as adamantine, which can mean diamond thunder,
Speaker 2: so like a sort of compressive process. I'm not you'll
Speaker 2: have to forgive me. I'm not Ricardo. So this is
Speaker 2: like this natural okay, well beyond me, but it's a
Speaker 2: it's a it's an adomantizing process between lightning and like meteorite,
Speaker 2: iron or other alchemical metals, specifically with metal, but with
Speaker 2: metal and lightning. And it's also about pressure. So sometimes
Speaker 2: they'll make like a golden furnace. It's very common in
Speaker 2: Daoism or like in Tibet, they use like a cremation
Speaker 2: furnace or whatever. So yes, I agree that the goddess
Speaker 2: who goes there, she wears a crown said to be
Speaker 2: of adamantine. So the idea is the flashing of gold
Speaker 2: isn't really gold. It's actually like the color of stainlessness.
Speaker 2: That's how it's more described in a tontic way. But
Speaker 2: it is flashing metallic, but it's not necessarily gold. It's
Speaker 2: more pristine. It's more like white. But there is something
Speaker 2: just like with a with light. If you've ever seen
Speaker 2: a Chambarro movie, this is a great metaphor for this
Speaker 2: is when they do the shot where the samurai holds
Speaker 2: his sword and the sword kind of flashes in the
Speaker 2: moonlight or in the diegetic lighting, like in the camera lighting.
Speaker 2: That's the same. That's kind of the idea for me.
Speaker 2: I don't know, what do you think, Nick.
Speaker 4: You know what?
Speaker 1: I started thinking about us Unfortunately got sidetracked and started
Speaker 1: to think about Mother with the whole crystal thing. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you ever saw that movie, how they
Speaker 1: actually have the crystal in there and the sorry think
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: You know, it makes sense, right, because that is kind
Speaker 2: of the idea. It is like diamond. It's like the
Speaker 2: transmutation from diamond into thunder. Like it's very like hoad
Speaker 2: nets off, but at the highest order. You could say,
Speaker 2: and maybe that is what Kelen is also like you
Speaker 2: can say, it's an expression of all those dialogs, interactions,
Speaker 2: those like the paths between the suffra. It's expressed. I
Speaker 2: kind that's how I always used to see it. Now,
Speaker 2: as I said, I'm more now I'm comfortable going down
Speaker 2: the tree as well. But I think if you look
Speaker 2: at it from looking upwards, which is the inverse to
Speaker 2: the Hebrew way, So the Hebrew way is you lower
Speaker 2: your crown, your actual head, in submission to receive the
Speaker 2: knowledge or to receive God's love. In tntra, it's completely
Speaker 2: the opposite. It's looking up at the crown in defiance.
Speaker 1: I like that one thing. If you even find interesting
Speaker 1: with the whole, like crystal, using crystal kind of as
Speaker 1: like a you know, a way to explain it. You're
Speaker 1: going to get all those colors emanating from it, you know,
Speaker 1: like you get that with crystals anyway, the colors in
Speaker 1: there when you shine light into it. So, I mean
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting to think about.
Speaker 2: No, this is this is a great this is a
Speaker 2: great kind of segue I guess into something Vanessa said.
Speaker 2: So she said, do you think it takes death the
Speaker 2: combination of both to reach Keather? And so different people
Speaker 2: have different ideas of this. Kenneth Grant would have said,
Speaker 2: if you go to death, you can go all the
Speaker 2: way like you're gone, like you're out of the you know,
Speaker 2: you're out of the black cu matrix or whatever. Some
Speaker 2: people say, I can see that too, and it does
Speaker 2: actually make sense, and so I'm okay with that. Some
Speaker 2: people say that if you go to Keather, you don't
Speaker 2: need to go outside because that is outside. It's like
Speaker 2: the sort of like we're coming back, falling back down,
Speaker 2: but we have the we carry the experience with us
Speaker 2: or people who have been up there, so or some
Speaker 2: people have said that it can be like a Tracy
Speaker 2: twinmon and we'll shout out Lisa obviously is like the
Speaker 2: you know, the World Archipelago, the hyperspace Kingdom. It's like that.
Speaker 2: It was a Tracy's idea, was like the trans Uranian
Speaker 2: and so we'll talk about this a little later when
Speaker 2: we show the sailor moon videos. But there's an idea
Speaker 2: that maybe cather and Uranus. Obviously the planets are the
Speaker 2: least density, maybe not even among the four. Maybe they're
Speaker 2: the klopathic density. That's an interesting way I've sort of
Speaker 2: been exploring thinking about it, like Nasauce space Cabala quote unquote,
Speaker 2: just an idea, but you know, because they are aggregates,
Speaker 2: like planets are physical aggregates, they're physical beings. Sepher are
Speaker 2: empty space or negative space. Excuse me, So what is
Speaker 2: the inverse of negative space? Is something physical dense made
Speaker 2: of stone and ice.
Speaker 1: Are a nice stone and nice Well, one thing I
Speaker 1: did want to even throw in there too before I'm
Speaker 1: sure we'll get into some of the other associations. But
Speaker 1: even the god name for this is a Hea, which
Speaker 1: is mean I am. That's kind of like a reflects
Speaker 1: pure essence and existence in the buying being. And I
Speaker 1: even like wonder, like you know, Kether, it does get
Speaker 1: the number one with it, so I do wonder about
Speaker 1: like technically that's like I don't know if like you've
Speaker 1: heard kind of Mario go on with the poles and holes,
Speaker 1: but it's like kind of giving that sphere number one
Speaker 1: is a pole in a hole.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so it goes. It's really interesting because in
Speaker 2: as I said in TNTRA, there's the goddess is the
Speaker 2: goddess of paradox. So she's actually standing upon a copulating
Speaker 2: couple if you look at the iconography, and you can
Speaker 2: also say in a Buddhist way, so this is a
Speaker 2: more Buddhist understanding, not an Indian toutric understanding. But she's
Speaker 2: standing on herself. So it is very much like you
Speaker 2: are saying, and like Brent is saying, once you're at Keather,
Speaker 2: you're back in Malkuth exactly. It is kind of the
Speaker 2: hyperspace Kingdom, and I agree with what Solar said, going
Speaker 2: to dat is like walking up to a mirror on
Speaker 2: clearly consciousness. It's kind of a trapsy as a fixed place.
Speaker 2: I agree. So it's like, but you have to reconcile
Speaker 2: both experiences, right, It can't just be like you can't
Speaker 2: just focus primacy on death or primacy on Kether. Obviously
Speaker 2: Kether is the one, but as Brent said, it's also
Speaker 2: the ten. So like when Mario's talking about that, for me,
Speaker 2: we reconcile it always with a male and a female polarity.
Speaker 2: That's how it always works. There's no real room for devancy.
Speaker 2: Oh you know what's really interesting in like an edge
Speaker 2: lord way, I'm just that's how I think of it.
Speaker 1: No, No, I get it, I get it. I mean
Speaker 1: it is even interesting. I mean again, I guess it
Speaker 1: would be an extra zero. But I mean, if you
Speaker 1: look at Cather, it's like one on a sphere that's
Speaker 1: one in a zero, and then the reflection is malt Kouth,
Speaker 1: which is the tense sphere, which is another poll in
Speaker 1: a hole. That's right now. If you're an add like
Speaker 1: I guess another whatever, it could be one hundred. But
Speaker 1: you know, what I'm saying. It still has that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting to think.
Speaker 2: About, absolutely. And it's also because the zero is what
Speaker 2: it's a later edition from the Sanskrit text, and it's
Speaker 2: also an empty number, so very much there's something very
Speaker 2: sufferatic about a zero just as it is. And it
Speaker 2: also is something very feminine about that because, as we've
Speaker 2: often said on the show and again shut out Lisa,
Speaker 2: but also all the times's I heard me say this,
Speaker 2: women are less dense than men. They just are. So
Speaker 2: they're a little more sepharatic, you could say, by nature.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean everyone. It just as a rule, you
Speaker 2: could say, but rules are always meant to be broken.
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I agree that zero is really important.
Speaker 2: I like to think of it as you said this,
Speaker 2: and I was like, yeah, he gets it. There's both
Speaker 2: expressions in the tree and every suffer And I think
Speaker 2: that this is where a lot of magicians go wrong.
Speaker 2: They just focus on either what we would call like
Speaker 2: the shock d or the female component. Obviously this is
Speaker 2: a very powerful way to travel through the densities. But
Speaker 2: then some will only focus on like the male deities
Speaker 2: or this pantheon, or they'll mix it all together. And
Speaker 2: I don't always think that that's the most useful either.
Speaker 2: And I think it goes along with what we were
Speaker 2: saying about colors, like different densities, the deeper the density. Yes,
Speaker 2: it's it should be more difficult and like emotionally phenomenologically,
Speaker 2: but it also should be uh, you should be actually
Speaker 2: losing the preconceptions of before, like the kinds of like
Speaker 2: the husks, like my famous thing, I well famous whatever
Speaker 2: that I said, like combusting the husks or breaking the husks.
Speaker 2: Is that that's what it is. That's what going through
Speaker 2: the densities. So you're kind of letting go of the
Speaker 2: preconceptions of before. So that's oh yeah, yeah, So I
Speaker 2: think that's really important to think about with death, is
Speaker 2: that like it is about Yeah, it's an infinite place
Speaker 2: of rag put, It's an infinite place of like being
Speaker 2: expansive consciousness. It's not limited, and Kether isn't necessarily limited,
Speaker 2: but maybe Keather is reflexive.
Speaker 1: I would even say even with Doth sometimes through my
Speaker 1: experiences I had I should you did that a little
Speaker 1: bit too, you know how I've said, oh, like when
Speaker 1: you open up your eyes, you'll know shit, you didn't know.
Speaker 1: I had even maybe attributed to that is that, like
Speaker 1: you know, that's your experience have to coming back too,
Speaker 1: is you know, the wisdom or understanding? I forgot what
Speaker 1: is associated with that again? Which what is uh doth again?
Speaker 1: Because I know wisdom is choke on understanding is, but
Speaker 1: not what is knowledge?
Speaker 2: Doth knowledge?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Or knowing? I mean if you see that again? For me,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of things that once I had
Speaker 1: in my experience, certain things weren't faiths anymore, just they
Speaker 1: were knowings. So that's why I had kind of got
Speaker 1: I wondered if even doth you know applies to after
Speaker 1: the magicians made his journey and he's coming back.
Speaker 2: I think it does. Personally, I think it exists, like
Speaker 2: I think it's if for someone who's made the experience,
Speaker 2: I think to have doth on the tream makes complete sense,
Speaker 2: and I would include it if I was like constructing
Speaker 2: my own. But I think for beginners or like people
Speaker 2: just learning, I'm not sure that it it's necessarily useful
Speaker 2: because then they look at it as like a place
Speaker 2: that you go rather than a place that you kind
Speaker 2: of come to through wisdom and understanding.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Uh, if you don't mind, I think I'll just
Speaker 1: even I'll read off some of my associations.
Speaker 2: You just get them absolutely.
Speaker 1: I had mentioned before again the god name. Now again
Speaker 1: this just goes to how Jin mentioned before. Each sphere
Speaker 1: has four densities. It normally goes like the god name
Speaker 1: for that sphere that it will go archangel, and then
Speaker 1: an angelic order, and then like the mundane chakra or
Speaker 1: whatever god name for this would be. Again I mentioned
Speaker 1: a hey, a, I am the archangel. I don't know
Speaker 1: if this was someone that you ever got into, but
Speaker 1: Metatron is associated with the with Cather, you're kind of
Speaker 1: supposed to be, like, you know, Gareth Knight is somebody
Speaker 1: that I him and the Unfortune I would refer to
Speaker 1: sometimes when it comes to cabalistic stuff. I read both
Speaker 1: their books, Gareth Knights, so I thought was better because
Speaker 1: he goes into the pants. It's a fucking gigantic book.
Speaker 1: And I mean most people would say that, I mean,
Speaker 1: he presides that Metatron presides over the whole tree of
Speaker 1: life as well as Cather because he's at the top.
Speaker 1: But that is technically kind of even like how I
Speaker 1: looked at it, like you know, the head motherfucker before
Speaker 1: you actually get the cut.
Speaker 2: So I think that that's a totally valid way to
Speaker 2: look at it. I think there is so when we
Speaker 2: did the Book of Enoch series, you, Robbie and I,
Speaker 2: it dawned on me that they believe, at least the
Speaker 2: people who practice the Enochi and stuff, that you, you
Speaker 2: too can be Enoch, like you too can be Metatron.
Speaker 2: You two can reach apotheosis. And of course in magic,
Speaker 2: this is like a very common idea, right, but maybe
Speaker 2: it's not that's spoken about in polite circles that you
Speaker 2: can sort of reach apotheosis or transcend like your limitations.
Speaker 2: But I actually think that that's an interesting way to
Speaker 2: also look at Metatron. It's not like he is you
Speaker 2: but not you of right now.
Speaker 1: I actually be totally honest with you when it comes
Speaker 1: to the trial life. And I've even said this about
Speaker 1: certain gods were just like even in their stories, if
Speaker 1: you're going to go have a magical experience and there's
Speaker 1: certain things going on and with you spiritually or even
Speaker 1: inside your body, you are you're going to become those
Speaker 1: characters like you will be Medatron before you cross the Abyss,
Speaker 1: like I think you do take on these aspects. It's
Speaker 1: just a way to describe it, and they give it
Speaker 1: a name, but it is an experience that you will
Speaker 1: have yourself. I think a lot. So like when you're
Speaker 1: saying you can become Medatron, yeah, I think you do
Speaker 1: before before you're blass love. I even think like, oh,
Speaker 1: even the whole thing, Like if you think of like
Speaker 1: how kings, you know those are used a lot, how
Speaker 1: do they? How do they end up? Like all right,
Speaker 1: I mean you could become a king, but if you
Speaker 1: want to, like let's say, you know, you follow it
Speaker 1: that you become king, if you want to go conquer
Speaker 1: another place, what do you have to do? You have
Speaker 1: to slay that motherfucker and take your shit. If you
Speaker 1: want to become that, you have to kill it and
Speaker 1: becoming like it's you know, kind of how I get
Speaker 1: into like my whole thing with like using Michael Maris
Speaker 1: as the beast, the motherfuck is slaying everything in his world,
Speaker 1: and then you'll be coming in a sense, you'll become
Speaker 1: the king he took over. You've killed everything else. So
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, in a sense like are you
Speaker 1: killing Metatron and becoming him?
Speaker 2: I mean that would be a valid sort of contract
Speaker 2: way to describe what happens. I wouldn't be against that
Speaker 2: sort of framework.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't have to be like, oh, I'm cutting
Speaker 1: them all the fun, you know, I'm not that. It's
Speaker 1: just like you're destroying the idea.
Speaker 2: The idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you know, but you know what I'm getting it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that. Look when we did our series,
Speaker 2: I said, doth is Yamataka. So the slayer of Death,
Speaker 2: he literally bring puts Death's head off, puts it on.
Speaker 2: It's a big buffalo. So he puts on this big
Speaker 2: like How's face, and he takes his skin that he
Speaker 2: flays off his corpse and then wears it. So it
Speaker 2: is he's slaying, but he is. That's the whole thing.
Speaker 2: He is, the Lord of Death. I think it's killing himself.
Speaker 1: I think what you just described right there, And I
Speaker 1: do think there is some possibility that even this skin
Speaker 1: walker ID I do think goes back to the whole
Speaker 1: thing of like I'm removing the flesh. I'm not part
Speaker 1: of the flesh.
Speaker 2: I think that's what I think.
Speaker 1: I think after I have a magical experience, I myself
Speaker 1: become a skin walker because I have now taken on
Speaker 1: the flesh. I've come back from the spirit and I'm
Speaker 1: a fucking skinwalker with bones and you know, fucking convulsive,
Speaker 1: fucking nerves going throughout this world. That's all it is.
Speaker 1: It sounds like very black, but I do think I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, if you if you're if you're in it,
Speaker 1: if you're a spirit and you're not encapsulated anything, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're in a body that's surrounded
Speaker 1: by skin keeping you fucking entrapped, it sounds like you're
Speaker 1: a skinwalker.
Speaker 2: I mean, that would be the that would be the
Speaker 2: buddhest idea. That would be even the idea of quarks
Speaker 2: flying and all that like that I joke about sometimes.
Speaker 1: But but that's not as catchy. It's not really that
Speaker 1: that catchy to sell on YouTube and podcasts. So I
Speaker 1: guess we won't look at it's gotta be that's that
Speaker 1: obviously has to be something only on Skinwalker Ranch, right,
Speaker 1: skin Walker's you know, but I think there's you know,
Speaker 1: deeper ship to that. I mean, you again, you're even
Speaker 1: telling how you there's just things of where showing people
Speaker 1: are moving skin I mean fucking silence of the lambs,
Speaker 1: the motherfuckers cutting skin off the people.
Speaker 2: I mean that is very interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 1: The Texas Chainsaw massacre I think is all showing that
Speaker 1: ship sweat guy.
Speaker 2: I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you.
Speaker 2: And uh, I also think what soldiers said was interesting,
Speaker 2: trampling down death by death. That's so try acknowledge hidden
Speaker 2: within exoteric liturgy. That's this is like Buddhism, is what
Speaker 2: he basically just said, because that's the idea is that
Speaker 2: you'll be able to take normative texts like the proanapartmy
Speaker 2: to Sutras, and from those you'll be able to derive
Speaker 2: secret knowledge, to be able to derive death right from
Speaker 2: the wisdom to us off and with that wisdom you
Speaker 2: can then move forward and go up the tree into
Speaker 2: understanding so Saturn. So they're not very interesting, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean not to get into it too much, even
Speaker 1: with the you know, it might sounded weird when I
Speaker 1: said sounds of the Lambs, but I mean if you
Speaker 1: think about that, it's a movie with a fucking mouth.
Speaker 1: So now you get the whole death and rebirth, you know,
Speaker 1: whole rising from the ashes, and you got this guy
Speaker 1: who wants you know, slaying people and obviously needs skin
Speaker 1: for when he's done. Well, when you fucking kill everybody
Speaker 1: and then kill yourself, you need a body to come
Speaker 1: back to.
Speaker 2: Maybe he was a Calvinist and maybe he just didn't
Speaker 2: understand the magical experience. He took it so literally. We
Speaker 2: were joking about this before recording. But someone who just jokes,
Speaker 2: they don't understand the magical experience. They take it so literally.
Speaker 2: I've even wanted to circular.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, all right, So yeah we got Metatron then, uh,
Speaker 1: then you also have for the angelic order. I don't
Speaker 1: even know, child hak Kadash or whatever, the holy living
Speaker 1: creatures those are supposed to be. These are high celestial
Speaker 1: beings described in biblical visions like Ezekiel's vision as This
Speaker 1: is something that people might actually have heard before. I
Speaker 1: think it's on Tarot cards. I think it's on Croley cards.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: These are the high celestial beings described in biblical visions
Speaker 1: as the four faced creatures supporting God's throne. They're often
Speaker 1: depicted as the four chrubic creatures, the Bowl, the Line,
Speaker 1: the Eagle, and Man. Gareth Knight explains that these four
Speaker 1: form of the angelic choir of Kenther, embodying the prime
Speaker 1: ordal eternal elemental powers. Sorry Funck, that'll he believes that
Speaker 1: the four of those are embodying the prime primal elemental
Speaker 1: powers in their archetypal form, which is kind of how
Speaker 1: I think Crowley had used it on his card in
Speaker 1: this sense. But yeah, I mean even there, you get.
Speaker 1: I know, Barrios talked about it. These some of these
Speaker 1: symbols have come up, you know, multiple times on this show.
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, these are ascribed with I guess Catherine
Speaker 1: a sense with the angelic quorder.
Speaker 2: I agree with that. I agree that well, I agree
Speaker 2: that there is sort of that expression is with the
Speaker 2: four animals. That makes a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2: There's iconography to sort of correlate to that. And I
Speaker 2: also think that the top deck is probably the best.
Speaker 2: I know, this is very contentious, and I'm not a
Speaker 2: natural Tarot card reader in any way, nor do I
Speaker 2: know Cabala through Taro, but I have used a tot
Speaker 2: deck for a long time off and on, and although
Speaker 2: the writer Wait Duck is really good, I have to
Speaker 2: say that there's something much deeper about the top deck
Speaker 2: in my opinion.
Speaker 1: No, I do, yeah, I do, actually, yeah, Like I
Speaker 1: do need to get myself at deck of that actually bot.
Speaker 1: When I first got to North Carolina a few months ago,
Speaker 1: I checked out there's like three like three occult shops
Speaker 1: within like ten minutes for me, so I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: that's that's pretty cool. I went to one of them
Speaker 1: and they had the tarot deck that Lucks used to
Speaker 1: using the Golden Dome that was like black and white
Speaker 1: and that's fucking hard to find. Kind of I grabed
Speaker 1: that and that one. I actually had wanted to think
Speaker 1: about covering it because like the major arcanda, if you
Speaker 1: were to see a things that I point out a
Speaker 1: lot to have to do with eyeball symbolism. It's like, Yo,
Speaker 1: that ship is literally all over that deck. Like I
Speaker 1: was like, Yo, this might actually be like more symbolic
Speaker 1: towards eye bullshit. But the tooth deck, I do think
Speaker 1: that that's it. Yeah, I am impressed with that deck.
Speaker 1: I'll have to say it is what it is. I mean, oh, no,
Speaker 1: it is very interesting. There's a lot of I honestly
Speaker 1: think there's in that toot deck. I think you're seeing
Speaker 1: light reflection. I think you're seeing the eyeballs, and I
Speaker 1: think you're seeing the brain. That's you know, I know,
Speaker 1: people don't want to give that dude credit.
Speaker 2: But like a lot of the paintings are very like
Speaker 2: through crystals, like as light with THREEC.
Speaker 1: Yes, even the Magician car, fucking Magician car looks like
Speaker 1: he's blasted off through like flection.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean it does. The whole thing is very
Speaker 2: whoever did it, whether it's Crowley or someone else, like
Speaker 2: whoever arranged those cars, it's very good. Kabala, I like
Speaker 2: it a lot. I think it's to pick something. I
Speaker 2: think preserve something, and I think it's a you know,
Speaker 2: even if you're not like for me, I'm not interested
Speaker 2: in Taro that much, but I think for meditation reasons,
Speaker 2: I think the Tomberg stuff, a lot of the you know,
Speaker 2: the more og guys they do the Tomberg meditations with
Speaker 2: the toad deck and I think actually makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and Rebirth of the World correct when they
Speaker 1: do show those, sorry, when they do show those that
Speaker 1: they are the cardinal points. Yeah, you know what, I
Speaker 1: had even wondered about those animals or the things that
Speaker 1: they choose. This would be too much to get into
Speaker 1: to try to even probably figure out right now on
Speaker 1: the fly, but just going by them, I mean, uh,
Speaker 1: I mean, you have man, you have eagle, and you
Speaker 1: know bird seed. Differently, they're also like higher up. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously they spend time in the air in the skies,
Speaker 1: you know, with the bowl on the line. I'm just
Speaker 1: wondering if they're like I guarantee you there's some sort
Speaker 1: of like deep deep symbolism between that, like even their
Speaker 1: makeup or their their place in the world, you know,
Speaker 1: or even like even I would say, uh, specific things
Speaker 1: about the physiology. I think might actually even be reasons
Speaker 1: why they're used.
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think it's physiological or formations
Speaker 2: of Like I tend to think of everything as like words,
Speaker 2: like they're trying to represent like primordial sounds or words,
Speaker 2: and they might do it in a specific way. Now,
Speaker 2: Mario obviously looks at everything through astro theology. So I
Speaker 2: don't think either way is wrong. I think actually maybe
Speaker 2: both of them.
Speaker 1: Both.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. So it's just like
Speaker 2: depends on how you look at it, because I think
Speaker 2: that there are relations for both, and I think there's
Speaker 2: an argument you made for both and including the booth
Speaker 2: is smarter. I agree.
Speaker 1: The virtue for this fear, this sphere, the attainment the
Speaker 1: realization of this union and fulfillment of spiritual purpose. I think,
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, I could be wrong, Jim, but
Speaker 1: I think kethere maybe the only sphere with no vice,
Speaker 1: because you know it's supposed to be. I guess you
Speaker 1: know perfect or an extent, it exists beyond duality. So
Speaker 1: I guess there is no really right or wrong at
Speaker 1: that point. Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2: That is definitely a one way to understand it. That's
Speaker 2: definitely one way to even express it, is like you're
Speaker 2: beyond dualities and like again, to reference the series is
Speaker 2: like Chinnamasta, she stands upon herself. She's above herself, above
Speaker 2: lust particularly, but it can be understood to be all
Speaker 2: kinds of mind poisons, of which there are five. So
Speaker 2: but she specific specifically, excuse me, stands on lust. So
Speaker 2: I just think or carnal desire, you could say. So,
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think that there is no virtue,
Speaker 2: but I think or no vice.
Speaker 1: Excuse me.
Speaker 2: But I also think it's like how you understand it?
Speaker 2: Do you take it in that way that you said,
Speaker 2: where you're beyond good evil? And then some people, obviously
Speaker 2: modern occultists, interpret that as being like whatever all the
Speaker 2: things I do after I come back down are sort
Speaker 2: of like in this range of beyond good and evil
Speaker 2: or do you understand that to be like non duality
Speaker 2: in your consciousness? So I would say that there's a paradox,
Speaker 2: but I agree that there's not at there's not an advice.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, uh oh, I'm sorry. I was looking at
Speaker 1: my notes that I got I lost it. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: then you know what, Unfortunately for some reason I started
Speaker 1: having the other colors, and I guess maybe I just
Speaker 1: didn't put them all in, but I was going to
Speaker 1: get into a Ibria that one is normally considered uh
Speaker 1: with brilliance, pure white brilliance. And then at some point
Speaker 1: there is a oh yeah, and then Asaiah that's the
Speaker 1: pure light is allfo shorn with a slight differential, and
Speaker 1: that is white flecked with gold like you had mentioned before.
Speaker 1: So even the colors changed throughout those for a world
Speaker 1: uh for me, And again, like I just do want
Speaker 1: to mention it. If you go look at the tree
Speaker 1: of life, I mean you do basically see at the
Speaker 1: top sphere it comes down into the two pillars and
Speaker 1: then drops down and then if you see you know
Speaker 1: this from kenther down the middle pillar. It drops all
Speaker 1: the way down. So something I am just trying to
Speaker 1: really I guess hammer in there is that it is
Speaker 1: within every sphere as well. In my opinion. Uh, I
Speaker 1: would even say sometimes like I Kether, I would uh
Speaker 1: look at that as a fuck. I just lost my
Speaker 1: train of thought.
Speaker 2: Fuck that's what you mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, fuck, I just had something too, and I
Speaker 1: was like a fuck, And it was something I've been
Speaker 1: wanting to say over and over again, totally forgot, just
Speaker 1: slipped out of my head like that, what the fuck.
Speaker 2: It happens? Yeah, it's okay. Well, I agree with you.
Speaker 2: I think that there's also an element of Kether that
Speaker 2: is in every supper. I think that's what you were
Speaker 2: also were kind of saying, like there's an element of
Speaker 2: like deep, profound, almost ineffable love. And so if you've
Speaker 2: had that, I think it's it almost is beyond like articulation.
Speaker 2: So it becomes this kind of like nebulous game like
Speaker 2: what do you really experience? How do you describe what
Speaker 2: you really experience? And Kether is sort of like innumerable
Speaker 2: in that way. It's just like so full of something
Speaker 2: so beyond what we could even use words to describe,
Speaker 2: like how the light exactly what you said there is
Speaker 2: like a I don't know. I think of it as
Speaker 2: like an eclipse before a horizon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, it's really and I was going
Speaker 1: to use this and this is a part of where
Speaker 1: I was going. I don't want to try to try
Speaker 1: to lose it again, even like you said the eclipse
Speaker 1: and stuff. Uh, I would even say with kether, I
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of like light before there's like even
Speaker 1: sound to it, because you know sound travels is slower
Speaker 1: than light, or you know lights travels fasted and sound,
Speaker 1: I know, to break it down into that, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound as wild they're crazy, but I mean
Speaker 1: I do think even an extent again, how I even
Speaker 1: used the crystal and how it shows all these colors.
Speaker 1: Could kether literally be just that flash of light of
Speaker 1: existence or something coming into existence that can eventually, like
Speaker 1: you said, at birth, you get that flash of light
Speaker 1: because the fucking that sperm, that one made it into
Speaker 1: the zero and now there's the flash of light and
Speaker 1: something can eventually take form and then be spit out
Speaker 1: into this world. Is that kind of like kether? You
Speaker 1: know that light flash and then all that stuff ingests
Speaker 1: for nine months and then gets ship out and tell
Speaker 1: Malkouth when it's done.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's definitely one way that people have thought
Speaker 2: about it is that like you know, like some neo
Speaker 2: gnostic definitely think.
Speaker 1: Like, oh I don't say that, don't say that. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: call on the Nazis already. Fuck.
Speaker 2: Well, some people believe that it, you know, through that
Speaker 2: expression of light and then it's like into the lower forces,
Speaker 2: which is sound exactly what Nick said. That makes complete sense.
Speaker 2: It like reverberates. People like talk about yasod being like
Speaker 2: a kind of reverberating crystal, but not maybe of the
Speaker 2: same clarity as Keather. That's an interesting way to think
Speaker 2: about it. Uh yeah, so it reverberates at our lower frequency,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I think so we then exist at a
Speaker 2: lower frequency. But I try and give it like a
Speaker 2: more optimistic I guess or utopian or maybe you know,
Speaker 2: as the kids say keathermaxing idea that yeah, it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter if we're in the lower world, we still try
Speaker 2: and go up. I don't know, just say give people
Speaker 2: like a little People seem to want impetus to like
Speaker 2: they want to be passive agents of like astrology or magic,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, no, you should take a more act deverall,
Speaker 2: so regardless of how we appear in the world, we
Speaker 2: should still try and climb.
Speaker 1: One thing I did want to mention too, you know
Speaker 1: about Kether how I even like, you know, even mentioned
Speaker 1: like the whole birth thing. You know, I even find
Speaker 1: that interesting. Again, you know, this is only going by
Speaker 1: my experience. Maybe my experience is bullshit. Maybe it was just,
Speaker 1: you know, something fucking happened in my brain and I
Speaker 1: just lost it. But again with that whole eclipse thing,
Speaker 1: like I'm talking about that flesh of light, and it's like,
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting how you you come into a
Speaker 1: flesh of light around a circle and if that is
Speaker 1: me crossing the abyss, I mean you're going out seeing
Speaker 1: the same shit.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is the thing. And then maybe this
Speaker 2: is a good segue into Bennah. Is that construction of
Speaker 2: light you could say, around the birth canal, like when
Speaker 2: you're sort of perceiving it coming outwards or when you're
Speaker 2: kind of going inwards into death experience, that kind of
Speaker 2: restriction of light is not it's sort of a good
Speaker 2: I've heard other people describe it in a similar way
Speaker 2: or as a pinpoint camera. It sort of gives the
Speaker 2: light contour and meaning.
Speaker 1: You know that that is a really good point. I
Speaker 1: just want to throw this in there before I forget
Speaker 1: this is even something I've even thought about with Janice,
Speaker 1: because I swear and I do think Janice falls on
Speaker 1: chokema my experience, I am getting a white light and
Speaker 1: then a black sphere and eventually they pull apart. Janice
Speaker 1: has been associated with doors and hinges. Well, if you
Speaker 1: have a hinge or a door or something like that,
Speaker 1: you're gonna swing that fucking black sphere away from that
Speaker 1: fucking white one. I know this may sound crazy, I'm
Speaker 1: sort of like, look at it like that if even
Speaker 1: if you think about it on the picture on the
Speaker 1: tree the way it's it's that could look like age
Speaker 1: Like that sounds nutty.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't. It really doesn't. This is a really
Speaker 2: good way to express like what happens. It's like the
Speaker 2: light drops down from calor as you said, it goes
Speaker 2: through chokemoil. You can say this is where like the soul,
Speaker 2: like what people think they are, that sort of is
Speaker 2: like there, but it's not in a body.
Speaker 3: Ye.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you come to face to face with God is
Speaker 1: the expression there. So if you even think about it,
Speaker 1: your God thinking this is me right, and then you
Speaker 1: go into form.
Speaker 2: You have the idea of what uity It totally makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you see yourself and then but not in
Speaker 1: my opinion, you're getting into thoughts and then that's where
Speaker 1: you start compiling what you think you just looked at,
Speaker 1: and that's what you become something there then you.
Speaker 2: Know, no, absolutely, this makes sense even in the Sailor
Speaker 2: moonclips I shows, because you'll see, like in their distinct
Speaker 2: powers that they do kind of embody these suffaratic concepts
Speaker 2: like that they'll have sort of like expressions like how
Speaker 2: I always think of Pokemo, like yes, I agree with
Speaker 2: you Janice one hundred percent. It's like a well, I
Speaker 2: think it's an odin. So I've said this before, so.
Speaker 1: I think I think perfect for that perfect to that odin.
Speaker 2: It's like it's not expression. It can be also smoky,
Speaker 2: meaning that you can tell what's around it. It's like
Speaker 2: very hard to discern. It doesn't have good understanding, but
Speaker 2: it can be also be like a fool, like the
Speaker 2: fool's card in Tarot is a really good way to
Speaker 2: express that it's like a guy he's going to step
Speaker 2: off the abyss, but he doesn't really know. He's already
Speaker 2: climbing to the higher mountain. He doesn't really need to
Speaker 2: drop off, right, but he's not really also paying attention.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of a fool in the most essential way.
Speaker 2: And I think that it confuses a lot of people
Speaker 2: to think that that is like number one, but Hokemow's
Speaker 2: really two. And so I do think that that is
Speaker 2: a point of you know, Pathogoras preferred the two, and
Speaker 2: it makes sense in Buddhism as well. We would say
Speaker 2: that there's like more of a diad, but we also
Speaker 2: have a flexible system, so as we say there's like
Speaker 2: a pentad or eight or whoever, it doesn't matter really,
Speaker 2: but we're more like there's more flexibility. But if you're
Speaker 2: more Pythagorean, you would prefer the two. And I do
Speaker 2: understand that. And so I could see where people are
Speaker 2: drawing like a face of God. So I think that
Speaker 2: Janus thing is perfect because it is kind of like
Speaker 2: a mask of God, like a Maha Vishnu who wears
Speaker 2: one thousand and eight faces.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that you didn't mention the fool That
Speaker 1: is the card that connects to Chokla.
Speaker 2: One of the few that I actually know because I
Speaker 2: did an anime series with Monty on. The anime is
Speaker 2: Forgetting Leaving Me one hundred percent. Oh a DGray Man,
Speaker 2: and so he has he is a fool card like
Speaker 2: it's the motif throughout the entire anime. He like owns
Speaker 2: a fool card. He has like the clown sort of
Speaker 2: tattooed on his eyebrow. He uses like fool card colors,
Speaker 2: and so it just it completely makes sense to like
Speaker 2: everything you're saying. So I remembered it. So it's not
Speaker 2: me being good at Taro. I'll just admit it's I
Speaker 2: learned that for that episode. So it's.
Speaker 1: I've learned more about Taro because I've decided to cover
Speaker 1: it all the show that I did Brian in some ways,
Speaker 1: believe it or not. So you want to play one
Speaker 1: those videos so you can talk.
Speaker 2: Let's go for it.
Speaker 1: This is I think this is the first one, if
Speaker 1: the one that didn't work, all right, So here we go.
Speaker 1: Let me bring up the volume a little bit.
Speaker 2: It's not her transformation. I just want to say that
Speaker 2: that's interesting. Although there are colors that are interesting. It's
Speaker 2: really her talks that are interesting that I think you'll
Speaker 2: find also interesting.
Speaker 1: Well, I find her with the green and red is
Speaker 1: the reason interesting. I mean, this is like two female
Speaker 1: kind of colors in the tree.
Speaker 2: I agree. So we're talks called bed Scream and the
Speaker 2: one of the one of the videos that it does
Speaker 2: work is going to have a line from Sailor Saturn
Speaker 2: and she's going, I am the time of Silence. I
Speaker 2: just I should have waited until you could put it
Speaker 2: up to say it, because I was like, oh, Nick
Speaker 2: will love this. But it is interesting because they always
Speaker 2: work together. So I like to say that Pluto is
Speaker 2: at death and like those are the inter relationship. Now,
Speaker 2: some people don't like this, and I'm totally fine with that.
Speaker 2: I actually think that there could be a flexibility between
Speaker 2: Uranus and Pluto. Like I think you could have Pluto
Speaker 2: at Heather or Pluto at death, depending on maybe the
Speaker 2: aon or depending on the system you're using. I think
Speaker 2: there's both ideas that are okay. So, but I like
Speaker 2: Pluto because as you see, she has a key that's
Speaker 2: her wand and the key is talked with a heart,
Speaker 2: so you could say love is the cause of knowledge
Speaker 2: in a very real way, and she opens the gateway
Speaker 2: the threshold, which is also part of what the mythos
Speaker 2: of death we can say is is the threshold to
Speaker 2: the abyssle world or to the Klipa. Although you can
Speaker 2: also say this about the moon about you sewed. You
Speaker 2: could say there's a secret path there that goes right
Speaker 2: to death. Some people have said that I agree with
Speaker 2: that actually as well. And so in the anime, what
Speaker 2: is really interesting is there is a little girl, a
Speaker 2: princess of the klipas you could say, who sailor Pluto
Speaker 2: takes as under her wing. So very interesting you sewed
Speaker 2: or a moon a lunar Pluto connection, I think in
Speaker 2: her kind of iconography, and that's and so I would
Speaker 2: say that that's death and more of a if you're
Speaker 2: just doing like a more teaching people like the general
Speaker 2: ideas of the suffer. I like Pluto with death, and
Speaker 2: I think that she actually correlates really well. And I
Speaker 2: think that the lady who did it was really into Taro,
Speaker 2: and so through Taro, I think she also understands a
Speaker 2: lot of kabbala as well.
Speaker 1: Did you want me to pull up another one or
Speaker 1: did you yes?
Speaker 2: Let's see another one. Yeah, let's if you if you're
Speaker 2: cool with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, let me just Unfortunately left them playing,
Speaker 1: so now it's like when I originally pulled them up,
Speaker 1: they're not even on the same video. So I gotta
Speaker 1: go and chat and pull it back up again, you know,
Speaker 1: like my YouTube will just start playing after another thing
Speaker 1: and they yeah, yeah, it's not that not on the
Speaker 1: same video, and US Cellular makes it easy to switch.
Speaker 1: All right, here we go. I want to switch it
Speaker 1: over now and then uh maybe after this we'll get
Speaker 1: into choke Ma a little bit more. Yeah, we might
Speaker 1: actually not be able to even get to all three spheres. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: Sorry I started late.
Speaker 2: No, it's okay, Yeah, share this dad. Next time we'll
Speaker 2: hit it hard with ben Off.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean totally honest with you people, like we
Speaker 1: could probably do one show per sphere, but it's just like,
Speaker 1: you know, who wants to do ten shows.
Speaker 2: I love doing long form series. I think it's great.
Speaker 1: Oh is Christ.
Speaker 2: So this is Sailor Uranus, and so I like this
Speaker 2: for Keather. You can see she's bringing the polarities in together,
Speaker 2: the fire of Gebra and the lightning of Jupiter. This
Speaker 2: is Sailor Neptune. She's doing the dreamlike ocean, so that's
Speaker 2: her attack is like music. It's kind of like a
Speaker 2: sleeping in the superno ocean, as I've often said. So
Speaker 2: I think that the both of the attacks actually makes sense.
Speaker 2: And it's also interesting because Sailor Uranus is a lesbian,
Speaker 2: so she is able to defy convention. She could say
Speaker 2: that she's postconceptual. It's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: I do think that is interesting.
Speaker 2: Someone thought about it, is what I'm saying. It was
Speaker 2: a thoughtful, deliberate way to reconcile the paradox of not
Speaker 2: having a male character Philip, I think, and because I
Speaker 2: would assign that to be more of a masculine energy.
Speaker 2: Now obviously I said that can be both, but I
Speaker 2: do think that there is a be a more masculine energy,
Speaker 2: or a more unified kind of vision, not not hermaphrodite. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that. I'm just saying a more unified vision.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's Gott and his wife together, and so I
Speaker 2: think that that's a more interesting way. But I think
Speaker 2: this is also a valid way because they thought through
Speaker 2: it and they were like, Okay, how do we reconcile
Speaker 2: this kind of paradox that arives as only one character,
Speaker 2: So then she also is in a she's dating Sailor Neptune,
Speaker 2: so Choke Mom, So it would give them an inherent
Speaker 2: sort of natural connection. And just like the sort of
Speaker 2: supernal triad. Well, Bena's really important for everyone else, but
Speaker 2: the other two are sort of ineffable in a little
Speaker 2: in a way, so they're kind of in and out
Speaker 2: of the show as well. So it's kind of interesting
Speaker 2: in that way that they kind of like appeer and
Speaker 2: not a peer. They're there and they're not there. Sometimes
Speaker 2: the other girls think about them and they don't really
Speaker 2: know what to make of it. Some of them are
Speaker 2: partially attracted to them, some of them are kind of
Speaker 2: repulsed in a way. And I think that also is
Speaker 2: like a coupleistic choices, like the plus and the ultra,
Speaker 2: Like are they magnetizing them in or magnetizing them away?
Speaker 1: Hm? I like that with the magnetism nice, Uh, you
Speaker 1: want to go over to Choked now, I guess.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see Chokemom, since we just kind of hit
Speaker 2: on it a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean even with the Supernal try
Speaker 1: it it's kind of like hard to talk about one
Speaker 1: with a kind of incorporating the other ones.
Speaker 2: That's what I think they're interesting, is that they're dating.
Speaker 2: So you would have Keather and Homa in like a
Speaker 2: you know, perpetual sort of duality, almost right exactly, And
Speaker 2: so Homah is really interesting. It's gray, it can be turquoise,
Speaker 2: it can be white. Is a perfectly fine way to
Speaker 2: think about it. But that's at the higher levels. But
Speaker 2: you could also say, I was talking about this with
Speaker 2: someone today is like it can also be if you
Speaker 2: look at Mother Teresa. That would be a really good
Speaker 2: way to understand Hokemon because it is like a widow.
Speaker 2: This is a very contric kind of archetype, but it's
Speaker 2: someone who's kind of outside of society, outside of convention,
Speaker 2: but they have a role. You could say they're sort
Speaker 2: of like a vessel for greater wisdom, hopefully like transcendental wisdom.
Speaker 2: You could say, like Mother Teresa's whole thing was like
Speaker 2: to take suffering and to sort of like make grace
Speaker 2: out of it. Now, in the tontric way to understand
Speaker 2: the sephra, I would say that this produces a lot
Speaker 2: of confusion for people. It tends to be very outside. Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm outside the flesh, so I am truly the beast,
Speaker 2: but you're not. You're not quite outside of form. So
Speaker 2: if you get stuck there, you're still getting stuck in
Speaker 2: a particular kind of ego. But it is considered to
Speaker 2: be the ineffable expression of wisdom. So more European systems
Speaker 2: like would prefer a masculine sort of expression of that,
Speaker 2: so you often hear about that, but in uh Dharma
Speaker 2: and Eastern wisdom systems, they prefer wisdom is always a
Speaker 2: female always always. Wisdom is pretty much synonymous with like
Speaker 2: a feminine element. So I would say that there's both,
Speaker 2: or you could say the tontric way is that they're
Speaker 2: reconciled because she's a widow, so she she did have
Speaker 2: a husband, but he's you know, peace out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, I had something I was gonna add, what's
Speaker 1: that one again?
Speaker 3: Too?
Speaker 1: Just what happens when I don't get stolen? I actually
Speaker 1: haven't a totally sober on the ship surprisingly right, that's
Speaker 1: that's because my vapor rises a broke I have to
Speaker 1: go get When after the show I realized that four
Speaker 1: thirty was broke, I was like, I can't leave. I
Speaker 1: was like, I can't leave, we'll be late and we
Speaker 1: saw it fucking five thirty anyway, Uh that was my
Speaker 1: fuff embullshit chokema. Uh oh, this is what I was
Speaker 1: thinking interesting about the ego because like even in Chokema,
Speaker 1: I yeah, I'll read, I'll read what I have and
Speaker 1: make maybe the level of uh, well, you know what,
Speaker 1: I probably lost what I was looking at with chokem.
Speaker 1: It's like almost like you kind of start to what
Speaker 1: I was reading and how I looked at it too.
Speaker 1: You almost start to indifferent yourself from uh, from the
Speaker 1: source again, Like I would even think that's maybe even
Speaker 1: because white Janus is there, like whatever or the experiences
Speaker 1: face to face with God is that it does say
Speaker 1: in Chokema from you know, multiple people's things, like that's
Speaker 1: when you start to like separate yourself from the experience,
Speaker 1: I guess, or separate yourself from the ol to make
Speaker 1: yourself different from everything else. And that I could see
Speaker 1: that being the ego. And like I've even mentioned in
Speaker 1: my experience whenever I've crossed the abyss, if that's what's
Speaker 1: really happening anytime I started thinking of myself, it ends
Speaker 1: when I start wondering where I am or what I
Speaker 1: am or where you know, what's going on. As soon
Speaker 1: as I really start thinking about I guess whatever, it's over.
Speaker 1: And I do think that's because I'm separating myself from
Speaker 1: the experience of though I'm not in it, I'm like
Speaker 1: trying to look at it from outside.
Speaker 2: I totally agree with you, Nick, And I also think
Speaker 2: the one thing I didn't say about color that I've
Speaker 2: talked about before that other people actually message me and
Speaker 2: we're like, I've never heard anyone say this before, but
Speaker 2: I think I've actually heard you say it before. But
Speaker 2: silver tinseling, this is something that I personally, I don't
Speaker 2: know if you want to experienced or just just associate
Speaker 2: maybe maybe in a deeper way with that sufferer. But
Speaker 2: I always thought of it as silver tinseling. So but
Speaker 2: I also agree that it can be understood and sort
Speaker 2: of the like Nick was talking about the diffusive expression
Speaker 2: of light through crystal, Well, if you go down to Hope, Ma,
Speaker 2: you're not in crystal anymore. You're in smoke or in flocks.
Speaker 2: So maybe you can say that you're like a humulus cloud,
Speaker 2: like almost pristine, pure white cloud as far as you
Speaker 2: can see, and then the cloud kind of pushes over
Speaker 2: the sun. It expresses outwards and there's kind of like
Speaker 2: a you know when when light passes through kind of
Speaker 2: the water vapor. It's not a rainbow, but it's there's
Speaker 2: something multivariate about it. And I think that that's also
Speaker 2: part of hope ma, and I think that's a good
Speaker 2: way to understand, like is it are we separating ourselves
Speaker 2: from the infinite sky? Because that's kind of the more
Speaker 2: traditional Jewish kabal ideas, like are we separating ourselves from
Speaker 2: God's mercy or God's love or God's wisdom in this
Speaker 2: particular case, or are we like a willing recipient of it?
Speaker 1: Oh that's the question, man. Honestly, I think like for
Speaker 1: me myself too, that is a big thing that I
Speaker 1: have actually wondered about. When you're still looking at the tree,
Speaker 1: what is the reasoning from that separation? Is it by
Speaker 1: choice or by force? That is just a very I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's like I wish I could go back
Speaker 1: to when this originally happened and see, like you know,
Speaker 1: because it's like, dude, if I was giving the choice,
Speaker 1: where the fuck SAYU stay where you are, it's much
Speaker 1: more nice about there well, or it is like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go somewhere shitty to remember how good I got
Speaker 1: it now, Like that is that what's going on? Because
Speaker 1: I got the joke, I can go home now I'm good.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: I think that is an interesting way to think of
Speaker 2: the tree in general. It's like, do you you don't
Speaker 2: want to end up on either polarity. You don't want
Speaker 2: to end up on the extremities of the tree. You
Speaker 2: want to end up in synthesis and also well, I
Speaker 2: would say you'd also end up in rectification both because
Speaker 2: obviously Buddhism plus is a great emphasis on that, but
Speaker 2: not everybody does. But you could say that, okay, Uh.
Speaker 2: The example I always give of Rosicrucianism, Rosicutinism and Falsism,
Speaker 2: like they have a very tipherretic They always focus on
Speaker 2: the heart and the and the you know, the the
Speaker 2: sacred heart with the crown and it's flaming and it's golden,
Speaker 2: and keeps pointing to it. So he's like, prepare your heart,
Speaker 2: like with these tipperatic qualities, to prepare consciousness to go
Speaker 2: high or receive the Holy Spirit or whatever. So I
Speaker 2: think it's like the there's a duality in that. I
Speaker 2: think that it's like people get lost in because like
Speaker 2: the experience is nothing like really how we speak about
Speaker 2: it in a way. It's like we're talking about it
Speaker 2: like this is one part of it, one part of it,
Speaker 2: one part of it. But it's for me anyway, it
Speaker 2: was a lot more. I don't know. It's like not
Speaker 2: so chronological. It was like the different experiences happen in
Speaker 2: different places. So I just think that people get confused.
Speaker 2: And that's part of what Nick's talking about, is like
Speaker 2: this separation from source, like looking at yourself as a
Speaker 2: separate being or already embodying that high quality of source,
Speaker 2: but you're actually in the lower world, so you can't
Speaker 2: possibly be ineffable. That's one idea.
Speaker 1: One idea I like to you know, and not to
Speaker 1: get into the weird weird stuff here, but like even
Speaker 1: with Chokma, uh yeah, I'm gonna get into the you know,
Speaker 1: eyeball and brain shit, the whole gray thing. I've even
Speaker 1: wondered if that has anything to do with gray matter, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, in the brain, and like the orphanym is associated.
Speaker 1: This is why I was gonna get into the orphanym
Speaker 1: is associated with with chokma, and I have often often
Speaker 1: thought the orphanym uh might actually be your optic nerve,
Speaker 1: because when you cut open the optic nerve and start
Speaker 1: looking at it diagonally, it does kind of like it
Speaker 1: almost looks like a pizza or even like the wheel
Speaker 1: of fortune and uh I you know again with the
Speaker 1: wheels and just something circular. And it has to do
Speaker 1: with sight. The orphanim's got eyes all over it. I
Speaker 1: just have wondered about that, and it's just you know,
Speaker 1: at that point, is that like if you want to
Speaker 1: start seeing what's going on with your brain and your eye.
Speaker 1: I guess at that point, like electricity or you know, light,
Speaker 1: depending on which way you're seeing it, you know, go
Speaker 1: on in your your brain if you're looking at it,
Speaker 1: I guess from like your brain out to your eyes
Speaker 1: or from your eyes into your brain, you will see
Speaker 1: I guess, like electricity or a light that then is
Speaker 1: starting to be pushed into the optic nerve and actually
Speaker 1: being condensed and like kind of like being separate from everything.
Speaker 1: That was just that's a little bit much. But I
Speaker 1: have wondered, like if you want to start getting into
Speaker 1: the physiology part of it, which again, I think just
Speaker 1: like the trivium or you know whatever, like we were
Speaker 1: saying before, how there's like so many different layers to
Speaker 1: ocult symbolism. I just think this is one of the parts.
Speaker 2: And I do think the biology part is undeniable, undeniable
Speaker 2: part of it.
Speaker 1: Even the whole thing with the colors, like I was
Speaker 1: saying before, I even think the whole idea of light
Speaker 1: reflection and frequencies and all that shit is all in
Speaker 1: the tree.
Speaker 2: Well it's interesting you say that, Nick, because obviously a
Speaker 2: lot of the medieval callist, which is some of many
Speaker 2: of whom you've covered, they have like mapped the tree
Speaker 2: onto the atom cadvon onto sort of the or the
Speaker 2: Christ figure or whomever they you know, Nacho or the
Speaker 2: Seth or the Shem or whomever they want to call it.
Speaker 2: They have mapped on the tree to the thing. So
Speaker 2: you can look at it through a level of correspondences,
Speaker 2: like we have talked about doctrine or signatures related to plants.
Speaker 2: But that's just a very minute example, like a very
Speaker 2: minute way to discuss the same things like the same
Speaker 2: there's planetary implications, planetary relationships with the organs. Then we
Speaker 2: can say they're okay, they are a suffaratic also implications
Speaker 2: or relationships. So I think it's all like exactly what
Speaker 2: you're saying. I think that the biology layer is a
Speaker 2: really interesting layer because I I when you were saying
Speaker 2: that the sort of electricity or the lightning around the
Speaker 2: gray matter, there's something there, I think for me, yeah, because.
Speaker 1: Like you're getting to your pineal gland and like the
Speaker 1: electricity going up and out of your eyes and over
Speaker 1: there like you I don't know if you want to
Speaker 1: stell looking at things and like what's actually going on?
Speaker 1: In my opinion, you can see it in extent.
Speaker 2: Well described as smoky and gray in tontra. So what
Speaker 2: produces smoke flux like has to be burning, but it's
Speaker 2: not burning as in like it's not actively inflamed, but
Speaker 2: it's some kind of electrical process, right yeah.
Speaker 1: And then like so and then if you want to
Speaker 1: get into like you know, a getting the gray mat
Speaker 1: or whatever janis goes with that symbol of if you
Speaker 1: this is another reason why I look at it that way.
Speaker 1: At what point a brain is actually female and then
Speaker 1: the mail is interdicted into it and you will even
Speaker 1: see that I think you know, with the genus and genus.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's not always a male and male and male,
Speaker 1: it's a male and female. And I do think that
Speaker 1: could even be showing you the whole brain and everything
Speaker 1: be informed.
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think it's a dualistic. It's
Speaker 2: not the most dualistic suffer in the terms of like
Speaker 2: what is presented, like the klipa is like the sort
Speaker 2: of misunderstandings that the magician or the meditator or whomever
Speaker 2: it is, they're passing through the densities and then you'll
Speaker 2: get these different kinds of perceptions, feelings, understandings, but there's
Speaker 2: also misunderstandings that can happen, and so I think that
Speaker 2: this is one of those things. It's like a dualism,
Speaker 2: and so everything in that sufferer reinforces this idea of dualities,
Speaker 2: and it's it's hard maybe sufferer to reconcile as well.
Speaker 2: And I've heard other people talk about this, and maybe
Speaker 2: this is why it's such a fascination for like contemporary
Speaker 2: especially like left hand path ocultists, because it's they find
Speaker 2: it so impenetrable. But I think it's just you just
Speaker 2: have to say, this is just the subconscious layer and
Speaker 2: it's expressing itself in the fucked up ways that I
Speaker 2: think of the world, not necessarily how they are. And
Speaker 2: once you kind of can say that, you can kind
Speaker 2: of be like, Okay, it's not and not everything is
Speaker 2: how I imagine it to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not what I thought it was. You know what.
Speaker 1: I was thinking, Uh, we're not gonna wrap it up yet.
Speaker 1: I don't say we'll go like another ten minutes. If
Speaker 1: you don't mind, if we have to talk about Chalkbow more,
Speaker 1: we can next episode. But I was thinking, and this
Speaker 1: is because we totally honest with you, I'm coming on
Speaker 1: in a minute. When I first started getting into the Kabbala, Doth,
Speaker 1: from my opinion or from what I learned, was never
Speaker 1: really originally on the tree. So for me, I was
Speaker 1: just like, I'm just gonna stick with the ten. I
Speaker 1: have looked into it and obviously it's in books, but
Speaker 1: I've never paid it as much mine. I'm thinking, well, again,
Speaker 1: I haven't paid it as much attention as every other
Speaker 1: sphere put it that way, I'm thinking maybe, even though
Speaker 1: it's kind of out of the supernal tryad, maybe next
Speaker 1: episode we will actually cover Banah and Doth even though
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, to make up for two
Speaker 1: spheres in that episode instead of one, So maybe we
Speaker 1: could do that in the next show we'll cover Actually
Speaker 1: I agree.
Speaker 2: I agree, because really, if you want to think of it,
Speaker 2: like Bena draws sort of death into activity.
Speaker 1: You could say, well, again, like even Mike, the way
Speaker 1: I say, I think death is kind of understanding what
Speaker 1: the fuck just happened when you crossed over. It's all
Speaker 1: connected in a sense.
Speaker 2: It's the way to make it's the way to understand
Speaker 2: what happens when you cross to me, to relate to
Speaker 2: it right, to give context and contour definition. But you
Speaker 2: don't want to be at the whole like definition where
Speaker 2: you don't know the thing. Yeah, you don't fundamentally know
Speaker 2: what happened. You just started describing it like randomly with
Speaker 2: words that you may or may not fully understand. But
Speaker 2: then once you're doing the bana sort of delineation of events,
Speaker 2: you're kind of putting it into a grammatical structure and order,
Speaker 2: and you're being intentional in your will. So that's very
Speaker 2: also magical. So that's why, like I know, Nick likes
Speaker 2: the sehra, I like the sephra. Bana is really so important,
Speaker 2: but it also has a relationship with Doth. So I
Speaker 2: agree with you, Nick, but I agree it doesn't You're fine.
Speaker 2: People are fine with the ten. You're interested in Kenneth
Speaker 2: Grant and like, you know, playing around with Doth. Doth
Speaker 2: is all that I was there. So you're it's not
Speaker 2: going anywhere, is what I'm saying. So if you don't
Speaker 2: particularly focus on it, it's fine. You're gonna eventually come
Speaker 2: to that place hopefully.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was more interested actually in Doth again after
Speaker 1: I had my experience, because like I because I knew
Speaker 1: that I was associated with Knowing, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I feel like this thing is I know now? And
Speaker 1: I was like, oh wait, So like it was something
Speaker 1: that spurred my you know, my attention more after the fact, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I figured maybe we could do that in
Speaker 1: the next episode of dub Nah and Doth, so you know,
Speaker 1: just keep it going. Another thing I wanted to say,
Speaker 1: not to get off of this, to get back a
Speaker 1: little bit, back to Chokmah again, like even when I
Speaker 1: brought up the Wheel of Fortune, there's no planet associated
Speaker 1: with Chokema, but the zodiac is. Again, it's just another
Speaker 1: whale with lines through it. Again, I was saying, if
Speaker 1: you if you cut the optic nerve down, like you know,
Speaker 1: like your slicing like a that's a salami stick. You
Speaker 1: gotta tell that way. It does look like it even
Speaker 1: has like the thick layer around. It's like, yo, that's
Speaker 1: the crust of a pizza like or like those flowers.
Speaker 1: It's a lot on that Golden Dorn deck. My opinion,
Speaker 1: there is tons and tons of optic nerve symbolism on there.
Speaker 1: It's like these circular things that almost kind of look
Speaker 1: like flowers, and they have this thick outer edge. I've
Speaker 1: shown it plenty of times on like an architecture like freemasonry,
Speaker 1: especially Catholic churches have that shit all over the place.
Speaker 1: I do think it might actually be the you know,
Speaker 1: the optic nerve. So again I'm just saying, you know,
Speaker 1: relating the whole zodiac. I wonder again with like wheale
Speaker 1: of fortune type symbolism, and I know wheal fortune would
Speaker 1: probably go around Chess said, but I mean, you know
Speaker 1: that's right above that it's chokemo you already.
Speaker 2: Well you can say that the hogman is the highest expression, right,
Speaker 2: So like there's obviously an innate relationship between Hasad and
Speaker 2: Hakmar right there. So maybe you say that all the
Speaker 2: things like a more Jewish way to understand it would
Speaker 2: be like you're bringing all those things that you've learned
Speaker 2: that are expressed in the world. So Jupiter is and
Speaker 2: has said, is there a lot of people not everybody,
Speaker 2: but a lot of people have this preference for that
Speaker 2: suffra because it's infinite in its expanse. Kind of you
Speaker 2: can double the four every time. That's kind of the idea.
Speaker 2: And so but once you get into Hokmah, you kind
Speaker 2: of are more. You're more centered, you're more you've lived
Speaker 2: your life. You've been like a master baster or a
Speaker 2: student or whatever for many decades, and so you've kind
Speaker 2: of come into this wi you're a wisened elder. So
Speaker 2: that's also like a good archetype sort of to understand
Speaker 2: it as well, and it gives you kind of I've
Speaker 2: always likened it to the Desert Fathers, so nix't talking
Speaker 2: about Catholicism, So like I think of that Hokmah is
Speaker 2: very like the Desert Fathers. It's like the guys in
Speaker 2: hemp Linen robes often gray, right, they're out in the
Speaker 2: desert and they're kind of meditating and having these sufferotic
Speaker 2: experiences and trying to make sense of it. And they're
Speaker 2: also they're not eating very much. It's like honey and
Speaker 2: locusts and like, you know whatever. And so it is
Speaker 2: like the ultimate asceticism in a way. And it's kind
Speaker 2: of like the ultimate You're you're seeking for duality, you're
Speaker 2: seeking for unity, but you're doing it in the most
Speaker 2: dualistic sort of separating yourself from your physical body. You're
Speaker 2: trying to like annihilate the self almost.
Speaker 1: You know what's really interesting. If we want to go
Speaker 1: back into this whole thing, I'm sorry to bring it
Speaker 1: back to the eyeballs again. No, that's okay. I like
Speaker 1: this when I think about CHOKMOI. You have one optic
Speaker 1: nerves but two eyes. I mean, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: Like there's only one optic nerve in each eye, but
Speaker 1: you are kind of getting one but duality. You're one
Speaker 1: eye optic nerve is it's only one of them, but
Speaker 1: yet it's being done in two eyes. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying? That sound like weird're even it's if you
Speaker 1: look at what an optic nerve looks like it looks
Speaker 1: like a flascid hanging dick. I'm not trying to make
Speaker 1: up for perverted shit, but in my opinion, that is
Speaker 1: actually phallic symbolism. Is because actually I do think is
Speaker 1: possibly showing the optic nerve, and or it even looks
Speaker 1: like a light switch just hanging down. Now you want
Speaker 1: to flip that shit on, you know, tickle that skull
Speaker 1: at Hoyz fancy she's turned out all the time. You'll
Speaker 1: get what the fuck you want.
Speaker 2: That's right. So what you said is so interesting, Nick,
Speaker 2: because there is even a con trick like icon where Shiva,
Speaker 2: well it's not really Shiva, but it's by Rava and
Speaker 2: he has the he's nude like that, and he's it's
Speaker 2: not it's a fa like meaning it's not erect, and
Speaker 2: so it is just like the shape you described, and
Speaker 2: he's non generative, and that is also the equivalent of
Speaker 2: the form that you could map into Hookema. So I
Speaker 2: think it's really interesting that you say that it's kind
Speaker 2: of the non generative father.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even uh yo, Minerval, this does sound crazy, Minerval,
Speaker 1: I actually think when you're going through that initiation, you
Speaker 1: are actually kind of. I think it's showing you shit
Speaker 1: from the eyeball. That's just my opinion. And they even
Speaker 1: the god name is even on. I mean it sounds cheesy,
Speaker 1: but like I was saying before, you just got to
Speaker 1: flip that switch on. I mean, that's the god name.
Speaker 1: And I do think they're actually they're telling you that
Speaker 1: after they pump your thumb fucking twelve times and there's
Speaker 1: twelve cranial nerves and one of them's the optic nerve
Speaker 1: in front of a fucking tent that looks just like it.
Speaker 1: So it's just like, you know, I do think there's
Speaker 1: something to that. Yeah, And the whole thing I mean,
Speaker 1: taking it if you want to, yeah, if you want
Speaker 1: to look at the Gnostic mass and it can be taken,
Speaker 1: is that the priest is just trying to turn on
Speaker 1: or get the priestess off, but he's not using his dick.
Speaker 1: You know. You just thought to wonder, like, is there
Speaker 1: actually symbolism behind some of this sexual stuff, because if,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, one of the best ways to hide
Speaker 1: shit is make it sexual and make it look satanic.
Speaker 2: Well that's the preferred every every magician in there, like
Speaker 2: the last sixty seventy maybe eighty years has preferred this.
Speaker 2: Sometimes not everybody, but a lot of people have preferred
Speaker 2: this tactic. It's to hide like real knowledge under the
Speaker 2: like the superficial density of maybe you can say perversion,
Speaker 2: inversion or whatever you want to call it, like a
Speaker 2: true kleep up, like a true misunderstanding of what the
Speaker 2: actual knowledge is. It's a way to hide it and
Speaker 2: obscure it. Which is interesting because that is also the
Speaker 2: kleepa of Saturn. People love that, like the you know
Speaker 2: Saturn moon matrix, like the oh the you know, black
Speaker 2: Cubas Saturn stuff. Well, but interestingly, to occult something is
Speaker 2: the kleepup of Saturn. Actually, Saturn is to come into
Speaker 2: understanding or been a is the proper way is to
Speaker 2: come into understanding rather than things before people. However, that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you get to reveal all secrets, of course,
Speaker 2: but I think that's about what Hokma is. It's a
Speaker 2: little trickstere like. That's how they would kind of look
Speaker 2: at it. In contra is the or even in the
Speaker 2: normy kind of Hinduism, they would say it's like the
Speaker 2: sleeping God, the supernal God. He exists on the world ocean.
Speaker 2: He's dreaming of his life in the real world. But
Speaker 2: he's not really God God, He's he's dreaming. So his
Speaker 2: sort of soul, if you want to call it, that
Speaker 2: takes birth into the world of form, and so he
Speaker 2: doesn't want that to end. He loves the dream, he
Speaker 2: loves the leela, and so he hates nothing else. He
Speaker 2: hates nothing else than to be sort of either you
Speaker 2: could say killed quote unquote or sort of awakened.
Speaker 1: Oh and real quick, because I didn't want to forget
Speaker 1: this and I was paying attention to what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I just want to throw this in because I was
Speaker 1: thinking about it and I was like, I forgot to
Speaker 1: say this prior. Ganus is associated with pillars correctly. Correctly,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you've heard that yourself through with
Speaker 1: the two pillars of the things that have designed.
Speaker 2: That is what that is what other researchers have asserted.
Speaker 2: So I have to say that as far as I
Speaker 2: know that is true.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, if I'm going on about these optic nerves,
Speaker 1: I mean it's again, it's you know, to fucking it
Speaker 1: looks like it looks like a one hanging in a
Speaker 1: zero in your ryeball you got two of them, you
Speaker 1: get it looks like pillars to me too. If you
Speaker 1: want to looking at it like that, I mean, maybe
Speaker 1: I'll maybe grabbing for shit here.
Speaker 2: But you know, I don't think you are at all.
Speaker 2: I think it makes complete sense. I mean, even the
Speaker 2: odin Mythos, it's like he's missing an eye, you know.
Speaker 1: And he's associated with fucking lightning, Isn't he Isn't he
Speaker 1: associated with light sometimes?
Speaker 2: Sometimes so some people say that he is, and some
Speaker 2: people say he isn't. Obviously I am this isn't well
Speaker 2: beyond my area of expertise. But certainly there is an
Speaker 2: association of him with this. Obviously we said this of
Speaker 2: the Sepher. But then also he does correlate in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways, like he wears a gray robe. He
Speaker 2: you know, he's an ascetic like a desert father almost
Speaker 2: except maybe like the Hyperborean Northern version of a desert father.
Speaker 2: And he's non generative, so you know, it fits a
Speaker 2: lot of these sort of just archetypically, like what Nick
Speaker 2: was saying before, like magic is really about archetypes. It's
Speaker 2: not about people get lost on like the god names
Speaker 2: and they're like, oh, I must do this alter to
Speaker 2: this goetic or this deity or this thing. But really
Speaker 2: those are just archetypal sort of layers or vessels that
Speaker 2: contain deeper ideas, just like the sex stuff and so
Speaker 2: or the satanic stuff like that's also like a perfectly
Speaker 2: synonymous way, like sexual and satanic. Like ye, it's like
Speaker 2: a perfect way to say it. Yeah, people do dumb
Speaker 2: shit because they they want to trip up other people.
Speaker 2: That's a real thing, and then also they want to
Speaker 2: sort of guard it against people actually accessing what is
Speaker 2: deeper knowledge. So dumb people would see the sort of
Speaker 2: external presentation and be like, this is what I have
Speaker 2: to do. And I agree that sometimes the magical or
Speaker 2: sepharodic experiences can be very confusing, not necessarily confusing in
Speaker 2: like a dark way or a bad way, but sometimes
Speaker 2: we don't know is like fully understand the things that
Speaker 2: we see. And so I understand why people start to
Speaker 2: obsess about like clipolithic things or darkness or the carnal
Speaker 2: ground or the as we did nick the series with
Speaker 2: the ICP guys. Yea, you know they have the dark
Speaker 2: Carnival and it's like all the it's a bit it's
Speaker 2: like hyper focused on the dumisms denizens excuse me of
Speaker 2: the carnoground. There's no kind of luminosity at the end,
Speaker 2: and so sometimes people get stuck in that kind of
Speaker 2: like you could say, like the actual density, like the
Speaker 2: actual like I feel like this is what something is
Speaker 2: instead of being you don't have to be a hermeticist.
Speaker 2: But it's a maybe an interesting way to think of
Speaker 2: it as like you want to travel like the word
Speaker 2: rather than stay.
Speaker 1: Fixed and one idea. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that,
Speaker 1: but uh, and you know, you know, it's fun. I
Speaker 1: don't even know how to say this. There's plenty of
Speaker 1: people that if it wasn't for this misunderstanding, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: have a podcast just to keep it totally real.
Speaker 2: Well, that's why I brought it up, Nick, because it's
Speaker 2: something you and I have discussed. It's like not a
Speaker 2: secret that there are people that would rather obscure use
Speaker 2: the klipa of Benna and probably knowingly, to be honest
Speaker 2: with you, I think, at least I think so it.
Speaker 1: Was a nobody will of this, and I'm sure that
Speaker 1: the ten people that sort probably have no idea what
Speaker 1: the fuck I'm talking about because it's so old. But
Speaker 1: there was like a time I'm not gonna mention names
Speaker 1: where somebody was getting harassed by not harassed, but they
Speaker 1: were culled this we're kind of like shit talken somebody
Speaker 1: that I know in the community, and one of them
Speaker 1: had like literally said to him like, if it wasn't
Speaker 1: for like horrible, fucked up shit, you would have nothing
Speaker 1: to pedal your listeners, Like you actually pimp like horrible
Speaker 1: shit that you sell to your listeners. And I didn't
Speaker 1: really I really didn't get it then because I was
Speaker 1: just like, oh, fuck that guy, because I really don't
Speaker 1: like him because I think he pushes like fake UFO
Speaker 1: alien shit. But like I said, like I guess from
Speaker 1: going through my own growing pains and wanting to change,
Speaker 1: we wanted to put the show or just in a
Speaker 1: MORETZ direction set direction. I started realizing, like not so
Speaker 1: much myself, but other people. I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: it was like the total misunderstanding of a lot of
Speaker 1: this shit is the only thing you have to offer,
Speaker 1: and all you're doing is like selling hate, fear and
Speaker 1: putting sick images into people's minds.
Speaker 2: So there's something really sicko about what you're saying. Actually
Speaker 2: is like if people pedal to sell like they're actually
Speaker 2: commodifying the sick images and then they're associating it with
Speaker 2: Magic's really about as you know, Nick, I'm not saying
Speaker 2: anything to you. It's really for the episode. It's it's
Speaker 2: about liberating your consciousness, is the best way I can
Speaker 2: describe its. People who try and limit you and like
Speaker 2: you're a deeper understanding, so your deeper inquiry into wisdom science,
Speaker 2: Like wisdom science exists, so we can reference it and
Speaker 2: so we can utilize it if we, you know, if
Speaker 2: we make that decision for ourselves. It's not someone shouldn't
Speaker 2: color your opinion of it just because there have been
Speaker 2: sick people. There are sick people that do do lots
Speaker 2: of things and lots of different, varied sort of ideologies.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, magic is in itself is there's
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with it. And so people who depends on
Speaker 2: how it's used, you know, trade in that it's it's
Speaker 2: unfortunate and they're doing a metaphis class. I think the
Speaker 2: negative one.
Speaker 1: I don't think people realize how Yeah, I don't want
Speaker 1: to get into it too much, but my honest opinion,
Speaker 1: people who stay stuck on that stuff, they're just black
Speaker 1: magicians gonna keep it real, but it is what it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I would consider myself want to
Speaker 1: as long as I'm talking and trying to make people
Speaker 1: believe something. I mean, I would say that's kind of
Speaker 1: black magic in a sense. But when you're pumping people
Speaker 1: with fear and hate, like yo, I hate to say it,
Speaker 1: like you're basically just fucking you listen to Satan, person's
Speaker 1: making you hate shit and fear shit. What the fucked man?
Speaker 2: Just weird.
Speaker 1: It's weird, you know, and everybody's fucked up. I don't
Speaker 1: I don't get that whole thing. It's like, Yo, if
Speaker 1: you got a shit on a motherfucker and make yourself
Speaker 1: look good, you ain't jack shit yourself. You ain't got
Speaker 1: no game. If you got to call everybody else's cia
Speaker 1: operative and a piece of shit so people will listen
Speaker 1: to you, you ain't got jack shit. You ain't got
Speaker 1: no game, motherfucker. That's just my opinion. It's like a
Speaker 1: dude who's got to talk shit about some of the
Speaker 1: chicks man to try to get down in pants. She
Speaker 1: fucking wants you. She'll come to you if you gotta
Speaker 1: talk shit about that. Motherfucker and try to persuade her
Speaker 1: you were a fucking piece of shit, jack shit, you
Speaker 1: ain't got nothing. And there's a lot of people that
Speaker 1: are doing that recently, and it's just it's getting silly.
Speaker 1: It's getting extremely fucking ignorant and silly. That's just my sorry.
Speaker 1: I I had a little rantic because it's just like
Speaker 1: a lot I see a lot of it recently, and
Speaker 1: it's just fucking disgusting at this point.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just funny because I think a lot
Speaker 2: of the people that pull that narrative. I think some
Speaker 2: of them have obvious, like called aesthetic at least trappings,
Speaker 2: and I actually think they know a lot more than
Speaker 2: they you.
Speaker 1: Know, it's interesting. A lot of these people that spit
Speaker 1: this shit don't tell you you what the fuck they
Speaker 1: believe in? Do they? They pointed everybody else saying bad, bad, bad,
Speaker 1: But what the fuck are your believes my man? Nobody knows.
Speaker 1: I don't know. But yet everybody else is a Satanist
Speaker 1: and fucking this and that, But what the fuck are you?
Speaker 1: It's a lot of weird shit going on out there recently,
Speaker 1: all right, that's facts at least is funny, uh, All right,
Speaker 1: facts again, preach all right, I have enough of that,
Speaker 1: but uh uh chin, I feel like there's probably still
Speaker 1: more we could talk about. But chokemar. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you maybe, well I don't because I don't want
Speaker 1: to cram another five minutes or three minutes in. Uh
Speaker 1: maybe we could continue a little bit more on CHOKEM
Speaker 1: and hopefully get behind Yeah again, like I was saying, one,
Speaker 1: I started late. Yeah, unfortunately. I mean we were met
Speaker 1: on time. It's just that we we caught up and
Speaker 1: bullshited for about a half hour and you know whatever.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I kind of realized. I was like, shit,
Speaker 1: we're kind of cutting it clothes for like three spheres
Speaker 1: because in my opinion, I mean they are not that
Speaker 1: all of them aren't worth talking about a lot, but
Speaker 1: I just feel like the pernal try it is like
Speaker 1: a little bit more to get into. So yeah, So
Speaker 1: unfortunately we will continue choke Ma and then Bean and
Speaker 1: hopefully doth in the next one. Everybody, but uh jin,
Speaker 1: thank you very much. I had a had a bank.
Speaker 1: I'm be totally honest with you. I was nervous about
Speaker 1: doing it because it was just me and you. I've
Speaker 1: been so accustomed to like five people on the screen,
Speaker 1: and I was like, what am I gonna do when
Speaker 1: I have to take a piss or have the air
Speaker 1: condition it gets too cold, you know, gold So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here dying to take a piss. Just let
Speaker 1: everybody know. Uh yo, this really turned out great, and
Speaker 1: I'm very in some ways, I'm happy we didn't get
Speaker 1: too far because I actually would like to continue. So yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the listeners, the people who caught it, I mean,
Speaker 1: they were loving it, so you know, the least, and
Speaker 1: a bunch of other people, even saying Vanessa, a couple
Speaker 1: of the people that love the conversation. So uh yeah,
Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming on, and I really really enjoyed
Speaker 1: the chat. And not to knock all the people on
Speaker 1: the show, but when it comes to cabalistic stuff, you're
Speaker 1: really one of the only few people I can rock with,
Speaker 1: So not knocking other people, it's just I think all
Speaker 1: the people on the show would even say that me
Speaker 1: and you were into the cabal away more than them.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate being able to have this conversation with
Speaker 1: you because I could talk Abala for fucking days and
Speaker 1: days and days.
Speaker 2: Man, it's a beautiful and amazing thing. Yeah yeah, thank
Speaker 2: you so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, man, hell ya, and thank everybody for joining
Speaker 1: as well. And Jin please let everybody know what your
Speaker 1: deal is and where they can find all your amazing work.
Speaker 2: Sure, I'll keep you super short. Threshold Saints, Spotify, Apple,
Speaker 2: everywhere you get your podcasts Gray Lodge. There's a YouTube
Speaker 2: channel live on x every Friday evening. Check us out.
Speaker 2: All my co hosts Solar, Matt, Joshua, the Branch and
Speaker 2: Monte Carlo. And we're doing speculative archaeologies this week so
Speaker 2: everybody can contribute. Thank you so much, Nick and Lisa
Speaker 2: and everybody from the chat. Amazing small for a million years.
Speaker 2: H yeah. So everybody should study Kuala, I think yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know. And again this is something I
Speaker 1: want to explain and something that I don't think people understand.
Speaker 1: If you were to go get a book on Kabbala,
Speaker 1: I don't think there'll be one fucking ritual in it.
Speaker 1: It is all about how we came into existence and
Speaker 1: how the fuck you get out of it. There's nothing
Speaker 1: towing you to go fucking kill a chicken, rape a kid,
Speaker 1: or to draw a circle. None of that shit's in there.
Speaker 1: So I highly suggest if you want to get into
Speaker 1: some deep thinking and ponder about how the fuck did
Speaker 1: I come into the flesh and how do I have
Speaker 1: an experience with God? Maybe looking into the kabbala might
Speaker 1: be something you look into. Again. Thank you Jim again
Speaker 1: talking about the kabala I love it and always loved
Speaker 1: chopping it up with you. Yeah, so I think if
Speaker 1: we stick to it August eighth, because we picked the
Speaker 1: seventeenth for today, I mean, let's just be real, it's,
Speaker 1: you know, a cult number, so we're like, fucky, let's go,
Speaker 1: let's do it on seven seventeen. I think we might
Speaker 1: go for August eighth for the next one, so stay
Speaker 1: tuned on eight eight, might come back and continue more
Speaker 1: kabbala Um and then until the next one. Oh real quick,
Speaker 1: just to plug it and then pie in about fifteen
Speaker 1: twenty minutes, which is another reason why I'm cutting it short.
Speaker 1: We'll be going live on hell Lissa's channel. Check that out.
Speaker 1: We'll be going live soon. If you happen to have
Speaker 1: any emails you think you can type up real quick
Speaker 1: and send them out, send them over. We'll read them.
Speaker 1: But yeah, check that out. And again, everybody, thank you
Speaker 1: for jumping in. Really great feedback. I really loved it,
Speaker 1: and even Leaves of Grass was nice today. Sometimes I've
Speaker 1: noticed her kind of talk shit. She was actually enjoying it,
Speaker 1: so I appreciate your nice comments. This time leaves the grass.
Speaker 1: Uh So that's till the next one. Everybody, be well.
Speaker 4: Later, close your eyes, look into the darkness, find the
Speaker 4: blazing star.
Speaker 3: Focus on it and it become the eclipse. Don't fear
Speaker 3: that the show will be done and death.
Speaker 2: You the shoes