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We're pingited to my eighteen 23 00:00:58.719 --> 00:00:59.719 plus terms and condition to plus. 24 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:11.400 What's video You. 25 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:15.159 Are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers 26 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:18.200 in true crime history and the authors that have written 27 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:25.480 about them Geesey, Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week 28 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.439 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 29 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:33.519 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 30 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:37.879 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 31 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:52.120 Good Evening, an examination of the unsolved mystery of the 32 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.879 Jack the Ripper style serial killer who terrified early twentieth 33 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:01.159 century Atlanta, Georgia. As Atlanta finished rebuilding after the Civil War, 34 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:04.359 a new horror arose from the ashes to roam the 35 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:08.680 night streets. Beginning in nineteen eleven, a killer whose methods 36 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.719 mimicked the fame Jack the Ripper, murdered at least twenty 37 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:16.159 black women, from prostitutes to working class women and mothers. 38 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:20.080 Each murder attributed to the killer occurred on a Saturday night, 39 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:24.199 and for one terrifying spring in nineteen eleven, a fresh 40 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:29.159 body turned up every Sunday morning, amid a stifling investigation. 41 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:34.960 Slayings continued until nineteen fifteen. As many as six men 42 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:39.039 were arrested for the crimes, but investigators never discovered the 43 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.759 identity of the killer or killers, despite having several suspects 44 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:49.360 in custody. Joined local historian Jeffrey Wells as he reveals 45 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.360 the case of the Atlanta Ripper, unsolved to this day. 46 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:57.919 The book they were featuring this evening is The Atlanta Ripper, 47 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:01.840 The Unsolved Case of the Gate City's most infamous Murders, 48 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:07.199 with my special guest, historian and author Jeffrey Wells. Welcome 49 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:09.719 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 50 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:15.000 Jeffrey Wells, glad to be here. Thank you so much. 51 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:20.319 Tell us a little bit briefly about your background and 52 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:24.199 how you came to be the author of this book. 53 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:28.439 Well and I appreciate you asking. Born and raised in 54 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:32.319 Georgia and educated in Georgia. And after I finished my 55 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.240 master's degree, I got a teaching job in the Atlanta 56 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:38.960 area where I was teaching mostly American history courses. And 57 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:41.240 in one of the courses, we were talking about twentieth 58 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:43.919 century American history and we were focusing a good bit 59 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:48.039 on race relations in the progressive era, and I brought 60 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.280 in Rebecca Ann Burns's book Rage in the Gate city, which, 61 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:53.639 as you know, is about the nineteen oh six race riot, 62 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.759 and I was making some of the race relations the 63 00:03:57.800 --> 00:03:59.800 problems we had in the nation in the early nineteen 64 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.360 high it's more local looking at it through that lens, 65 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:06.879 and so I talked about crime, a little bit about crime, 66 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:09.719 and I shared with my students how much I enjoyed 67 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.479 looking at the history of law enforcement and crime in 68 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.639 the country. And after class one day, a young man said, Hey, 69 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:22.560 I was perusing the internet and I found this, and 70 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:24.680 I thought that you might enjoy it. And it happened 71 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:28.120 to be Steve Fennessy's article in Creative Loafing magazine there 72 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.439 in Atlanta about the Atlanta River murders, and we read 73 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:34.920 it together very interested. I shared it with my class 74 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:36.879 and showed them that, you know, even though it didn't 75 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.839 spawn from the nineteen oh six race riot, that it 76 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:43.480 was somewhat there were nuggets of wisdom in there and 77 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:46.600 information about the race relations that existed in the city 78 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:50.399 at that time. So I taught school for high school 79 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:53.279 and then college for some years, then got into doing 80 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:55.839 this kind of research, and then eventually the History Press 81 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:58.519 asked me to publish it after they saw an article 82 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:03.120 I posted on my own blog site entitled the Atlanta River. 83 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.000 So that's kind of how the story was born. 84 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:11.959 Now, let's talk about the race riots in nineteen oh 85 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:14.199 six in Atlanta, And as you write in the book, 86 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:18.920 tell us about the societal and cultural environment at that time, 87 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:23.759 especially for blacks. But what also you write sets Atlanta 88 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:26.800 apart at that time from other cities in Georgia. 89 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:31.480 Sure well, and Atlanta's kind of unique. It's a railroad town. 90 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:33.439 It was founded in the eighteen thirties. I believe it 91 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:35.920 was eighteen thirty seven to be exact, where places like 92 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.199 Macon and Savannah, Savannah being the first city in the 93 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.720 port city, a big port city on the Savannah River, 94 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.800 and then later Macon being founded around eighteen twenty three. 95 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:49.279 It was a cotton destination. They would ship their cotton 96 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:54.680 these rivers as cotton became king, well as Atlanta, which 97 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:58.560 started out as terminus in Martha'sville. As Atlanta was founded, 98 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.240 it blossomed into what we know as a railroad town. 99 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:04.680 And there were lots of slaves in Savannah and Mecon 100 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.600 and in various parts of Georgia. Atlanta began to be 101 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:12.759 a destination eventually for slave holders and there were slaves 102 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.600 in and around the city of Atlanta, but the commerce, 103 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:19.680 they are mainly focused on the railroad because Atlanta, the 104 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:23.000 Chattahoochee River runs through there, but it didn't service the 105 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:27.000 city nearly the way that the Mougi River in Macon 106 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.240 did and the Savannah River did in Savannah. So you've 107 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:34.560 got some differences in the nature of the cities in Georgia. 108 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:37.639 And then, of course Atlanta becomes a very big city 109 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:41.839 in the twentieth and twenty first centuries. But by eight 110 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:44.600 around the eighteen eighties, Atlanta began to grow. It began 111 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:46.759 to be the hub of more of an economy that 112 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:50.639 we would know as a regional economy. About nineteen hundred, 113 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:54.680 you have about ninety thousand people in the city, and 114 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:57.959 then well, actually you have about one hundred and fifty 115 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:01.920 thousand people. It eventually went from about ninety thousand before that, 116 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:05.279 blossoming into a bigger metropolis of about one hundred and 117 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:10.480 fifty thousand between nineteen hundred and nineteen ten. Of that population, 118 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.560 about a third were African American. Inside the African American 119 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.360 community in Atlanta at that time, you have a burgeoning 120 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:22.040 black elite leadership class and there was some tension between 121 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:24.079 them and the black working class, which, as you know, 122 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:28.240 Dan was also the black working class. Was the field, 123 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:32.120 if you will, that the Atlanta Ripper, the Ripper murders happened. 124 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.040 Then the black working class, of course, the women who 125 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:38.120 were murdered were in that class. Well, there's tension between 126 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:42.360 them and the black elite who sought to separate themselves 127 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:44.920 a bit from the black working class. And then of 128 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.800 course the pressures on the black community in Atlanta from 129 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:52.399 the white community who sought to separate themselves and segregate 130 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:57.000 the classes, keep them separate and oppressed in the black community. 131 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.360 Those are all the struggles that black Atlanta's had to 132 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:03.279 deal with that time, most specifically the black working class. 133 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:09.360 Right now, we mentioned you mentioned how important the race 134 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:13.399 riot was to just setting up the environment that was 135 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:18.240 the Atlanta Ripper, that's the environment he found himself in 136 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:21.800 and his victims as well. So let's talk about just 137 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:28.279 briefly about this race riot and the effect of the 138 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:33.759 race riot on the community itself. Again readying the community 139 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.639 for the reign of terror of the Atlanta Ripper. 140 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.000 Yeah, and that does provide a backdrop and some context 141 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:44.720 that actually emanates from the gubernatorial race in Georgia in 142 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.519 nineteen oh six. You have Actually it's kind of a 143 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:50.120 battle of the two major newspapers that are now one 144 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:53.879 newspaper in Georgia, the Atlanta Journal Constitution. At that time 145 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:58.120 they were two separate papers, the Atlanta Journal the Atlanta Constitution. 146 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:03.440 The former publisher of the Atlanta Journal was Hoak Smith, 147 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:06.320 and he ran for governor in nineteen oh six against 148 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:11.000 Clark Howell, who was the editor of the Atlanta Constitution. Well, 149 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:16.519 in that gubernatorial election race, relations and the burgeoning black community, 150 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:20.000 the growth of the black community in Atlanta, and also 151 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:23.559 the emergence of the black upper class, was very much 152 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.279 front and center in that campaign. As a matter of fact, 153 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:30.759 I would say that Clark Howell and Hoak Smith were 154 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:34.000 trying to out racist one another, if you will, especially 155 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:37.799 in twenty first century terms and terms like in their 156 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:41.480 place stay on that side, and those were terms that 157 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:44.960 were actually used in that race. Now, Tom Watson, who 158 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:49.039 was a populist and ran for vice president as a 159 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:53.519 populist in the eighteen late eighteen hundreds, endorsed one of 160 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.679 those candidates, and that was Hoak Smith, who eventually went 161 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.480 on to win that election. Clark Howell did not win. 162 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:03.759 But the Ventriol and the language people think that presidential 163 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:07.519 elections in the twenty first century can get bad. These 164 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.519 gubernatorial elections in the Deep South at that time were 165 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:15.279 really bad, and very much so in the case of 166 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:18.679 the effect on African Americans and the African American communities. 167 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:22.600 Then there were things that were said that demonized black men, 168 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:25.720 made them look to the white community as if they 169 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:29.600 were nothing, the predators, that black people could not be trusted, 170 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:33.000 they were thieves and vagabonds, that they were less intelligent 171 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.000 than the white community, so therefore they had to be 172 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:38.039 managed and kept in their place, otherwise they would threaten 173 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:42.679 the white community. So that's the backdrop of the race riot. 174 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:46.120 And in September of that year, nineteen o six, the 175 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:48.600 Atlanta newspapers vote that I just mentioned and a few 176 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:54.799 others actually reported for possible assault. And the bad thing 177 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:57.559 about this is is that over time and even in 178 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:01.159 that time, they could never substantiate that the assaults actually 179 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:04.279 took place. But what they said was that there were 180 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:08.720 four black perpetrators who assaulted local white women and Mayor 181 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:11.440 James G. Woodward was mayor of Atlanta at that time, 182 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:14.000 and he had a mess on his hands because and 183 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:18.159 these politicians in the middle of this gubernatorial campaign and 184 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:19.919 all of this stuff that was going on in Atlanta 185 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:23.480 whipped the community into a frenzy, and eventually black businesses 186 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:27.559 were burned, White mobs took to the streets, Black people 187 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.879 were trying to defend themselves, and it became basically a 188 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:35.440 free for all in Atlanta for that time period, and 189 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.000 the black leadership of Atlanta was crying out for help 190 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.120 because number one, no one could ever proved that any 191 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:44.919 of that happened and that it was that any any 192 00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:48.399 crimes were perpetrated, but there were certainly crimes being perpetrated 193 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.360 against the black community as a result of all that hype. 194 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:57.600 Right now, it's fascinating that at that time, in nineteen 195 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:02.200 oh six, they wait community turned this around where whites 196 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:07.000 feared blacks and the threat of blacks in that community. 197 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.360 Nineteen oh nine, you talk about starting in April, a 198 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:15.080 woman named Della Reed is found in a trash pile, 199 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:21.600 a black woman, Della Reed, nineteen oh nine. And then 200 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:25.960 March fifth, of Stella Baldwin is found with a concussion 201 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:30.080 struck in the head. One month later, after that, Georgia 202 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:36.399 Brown gunshot wound. Next day a woman named Mattie Smith gunshot, 203 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:41.399 and the next month Lavigna Austin, and still in May, 204 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:46.799 another woman named Sarah Dukes a gunshot, as well as 205 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:52.639 Francis Lampkin, and near labor day Eliza Griggs, and then 206 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:59.080 October Maggie Brooks. Now tell us about this what predates 207 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:01.600 this in terms of Jack the Ripper, which was in 208 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:05.799 eighteen eighty eight in London. What's the effect of Jack 209 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:09.600 the Ripper and the story nineteen oh nine and then 210 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:14.559 eventually the reporting and the term coined for this assailant, 211 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:17.559 The Atlanta Ripper told us a little bit of the 212 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:20.799 background of Jack the Ripper and his story and its 213 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.080 effect on the community before nineteen oh nine. 214 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.519 It's a good question, and you hit something very important there. 215 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:32.480 The term ripper, and they called the press, but that 216 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:35.200 was actually a term that was applied to these the 217 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.440 murderer behind this, or the murderers. At that time, everybody 218 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:43.080 kind of thought, it's just one murderer, so they called 219 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.480 him the theend, and then eventually the Ripper. Then they 220 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:49.679 began to use terms like ripper, like murder. The effect 221 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:53.279 that Jack the Ripper phenomenon had on these on the 222 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:56.360 publications at the time and the mindset of the community. 223 00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:58.919 As these stories rolled out of the major newspapers in 224 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:03.320 Atlanta and around the state was it hung like a pall. 225 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:06.000 And it was a dark cloud that hung over all 226 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:09.840 of this because even though a lot of society at 227 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:14.000 that time, particularly in the Deep South, was illiterate, people 228 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:18.120 knew about Jack the Ripper. That has become a phenomenon, 229 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.720 almost a cultural thing. Anytime you mentioned serial killer today, 230 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.279 people will go to they'll talk about Jack the Ripper, 231 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.159 even if they don't study the history of crime. And 232 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:32.440 that's also Jason that day and age as well. And 233 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.759 so the modus OFFHANDI that Jack the Ripper murders was 234 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:43.480 slitting the throats, disemboweling, basically, if you will, mangling the 235 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:48.399 bodies of the women. Certain things were removed from their bodies, 236 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.759 body parts. It's almost as if the ripper himself in 237 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.440 the West end of the Whitechapel district of London was 238 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:57.840 taking a prize. And you do see some evidence of 239 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:02.480 that here too with the Atlanta ri But that story 240 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:05.759 began to kind of hang over these murders, and so 241 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.840 naturally It just makes a lot of common sense to 242 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:13.240 me that eventually journalists would call this ripper like murders, 243 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.200 and then eventually the name the Atlanta Ripper. And of 244 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.399 course the Atlanta Ripper prayed on young women, young African 245 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:25.360 American women they called the mulatto women, and so the 246 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:30.000 ripper in London prayed on white women. So there are 247 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:33.000 some similarities in the murder in the murder spreees. 248 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.519 Right, let's just pause for a moment for these. 249 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:40.919 Lucky land casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've 250 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:41.639 gotten lucky? 251 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:43.879 Lucky? In line at the Delhi, I. 252 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:47.240 Guess ahi, in my dentist's office more than once. Actually 253 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:48.559 do I have to say? 254 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:49.080 Yes? You do? 255 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:51.840 In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 256 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:52.399 Really? 257 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:53.679 Yes, excuse me? 258 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:55.440 What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 259 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:57.080 I never win in tell? 260 00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.399 Well, there you have it. You could get lucky anywhere 261 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:02.759 playing at land slots dot com play for free right now? 262 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:03.879 Are you feeling lucky? 263 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:06.480 No, We're just necessary for er long eighteen plus terms conditions, 264 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.360 plus it's commercials. 265 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.000 We talked about Jack the Ripper in its effect and 266 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.840 the women that I had mentioned that were killed by month, 267 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.559 and we mentioned that in the Incredible that we're attacked 268 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.360 on sun Saturday and found on Sunday, and this spree 269 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:31.840 begins with this once one per month, and then very 270 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.120 many similarities to the condition that the women were found 271 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.559 and some of the things that were done to these women, 272 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.240 which included in this part of the Ripper description the 273 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:47.600 slitting of their throats tell us, as you mentioned, the 274 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:51.080 Constitution and the Journal were separate newspapers. What was the 275 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:55.799 treatment initially from the two different newspapers in terms of 276 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:58.840 what was happening in terms of black women being brutally 277 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:00.279 killed in atlant. 278 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.640 Well, as you can imagine, that particular story of those 279 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.480 stories did not get a lot of press today. If 280 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.759 that had happened in most any community in Georgia or 281 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:15.440 around the country, especially a murder or a series of 282 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:19.160 murders that gruesome, that would draw a lot of attention. 283 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:23.200 It could also be described as, you know, fodder for 284 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:27.119 sensationless writing, because it's there, there's such a lot of 285 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:30.599 graphic details, and the murders themselves were quite a cob 286 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:35.519 But unfortunately from nineteen o nine, you know, the early 287 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:38.039 twentieth century in the Deep South, and I would argue 288 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.599 the early twentieth century, in a lot of places in America, 289 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.079 what was happening in the black community in the way 290 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:49.200 of crime did not go as highlighted and heavily reported 291 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.000 as say, if this had happened in the white community. 292 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:55.880 The fact that these were also young women, and as 293 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:00.000 I told you earlier, there's tension between the black leads 294 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:02.839 and the black working class, and then there's a lot 295 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.039 of tension between the two races period. The fact that 296 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:10.079 these are black working these are dynastics. You know, for example, 297 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.680 a lot of the women who were walking home or 298 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:17.240 walking to their places of employment were walking to homes 299 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:22.279 of white Atlanta's where they worked as domestic servants. There 300 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:24.960 was a lot of tension in the black community between 301 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:28.480 the upper class and the working class. So you know, 302 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:31.880 those race riots also had painted black people, as you know, 303 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:36.559 black men, particularly as predators. This plays into that narrative, 304 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.480 if you know what I mean, in the white community, 305 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:42.240 that had been spun for the white community and spun 306 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.279 by the political leadership and even journalists at that time 307 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:48.519 and corpuses at that time about the black community in 308 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.000 Atlanta or the black community in general. So when you 309 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:56.319 see the press treat these stories. They treat them very mildly. 310 00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:59.200 A lot of times it's just one column, it's not 311 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:03.640 a very large Later on that does change, and that 312 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:08.640 would be insufferable. Today, we would immediately have a public 313 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.240 outcry if something like this happened in the community and 314 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.160 it was not highlighted or the media did not focus 315 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.680 on it. But they certainly did not do much with 316 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:20.440 it in the early years of this phenomenon. 317 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.599 Now, despite this every month attack and these numerous attacks, 318 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:33.880 you write that nineteen ten, nineteen ten rolled into nineteen eleven, 319 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.759 things got worse. So nineteen ten was certainly not as 320 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:41.000 bad as nineteen oh nine, but certainly nineteen eleven things 321 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:46.400 got worse, and you Rosea Trice. The thirty five year 322 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.400 old is found dead seventy five years, seventy five yards 323 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:53.599 from her home. This is a little different descriptions of 324 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.480 what happens to these bodies. This body was dragged by 325 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.400 the perpetrator after death. There's no weapon left the behind, 326 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:03.319 but the left side of her head is crushed with 327 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.559 a blunt instrument, stabbed in the jaw, and again her 328 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:12.200 throat cut. In this particular case, they do arrest somebody 329 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:18.079 for this murder, Who did they arrest and what happens 330 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:19.160 as a result. 331 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:23.920 Well, there were several people over the course of time 332 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:27.400 that ended up being hauled in by the Atlanta Police Department. 333 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:32.880 The strange thing here, Dan is no one and it 334 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.440 almost seemed like they would have evidence that would point 335 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.279 in the direction of these men possibly being the killer. 336 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:45.440 And in some instances, I do believe that the killer. 337 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:49.119 It could have been that that individual they hauled in 338 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:53.440 did perpetrate the murder that he was hauled in for. 339 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:58.000 But in any instances, you've got people like Henry Huff, 340 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:00.559 who was you know, basically twenty seven years old, and 341 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:05.079 did fit the description that that some of these women 342 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.319 that two of the women gave, or fit the description 343 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.200 that several of the women gave, and fit the description 344 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.799 of those who saw a perpetrator running from what would 345 00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:16.880 eventually be identified as the scene of a murder. But 346 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:20.559 there were there was eventually some question about whether or 347 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:26.279 not Henry Huff had committed any murders. You know. Interestingly enough, 348 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:29.680 there was a young woman who was killed, Sadie Holly, 349 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.680 and Henry Huff himself was was with her the night 350 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:38.839 that she died. You know, it's to be honest with you, 351 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:43.240 it is so it would really be so difficult to 352 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:47.400 try to PenPoint any one person or any of the 353 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:50.079 people they hauled in, people that we we've just now 354 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:54.359 found out about in some research that was conducted after 355 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.240 my book was published. Recently a journalist has found uncovered 356 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.200 where another individual was arrested, but he went almost unnoticed 357 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.400 by He went unnoticed by me and other researchers until recently. 358 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.200 It's it, you know, honestly, that's the hardest part of 359 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.720 this whole story, man, it really is. We can tell 360 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:17.519 I can tell you a lot about the murder victims themselves, 361 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.759 but inside the story of the Atlanta Ripper, the men 362 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:26.160 who are who are accused and eventually who are put 363 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:32.279 on trial, there's almost nothing about them. Almost nothing. 364 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:38.359 You write about the people that are accused. Todd Henderson, 365 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:45.039 Henry Huff then later Leo Frank are accused, and various 366 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:49.680 other people. But this is based on victims uh surviving, 367 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:54.359 getting away and offering a description. And then we haven't 368 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:58.920 talked about the point where even the constitution the newspaper 369 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:03.839 agreed and gets on board that the term the Atlanta 370 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:08.480 Ripper should be used and the murders previous from nineteen 371 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.599 oh nine can be considered the work of the ripper, 372 00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:16.000 and they operate accordingly in the media in that way. 373 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:22.599 So let's go let's go to that and discuss that. 374 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:28.759 Sure. Well, one of the things that's well, for example, 375 00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:33.200 going back to like Todd Henderson, one of the things 376 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.920 that's unique or not unique, but one of the things 377 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:39.599 that's very telling about these murders is that a lot 378 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.119 of these women, of course, were cut their throats were 379 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:46.240 cut with a very sharp object, or they were bashed 380 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.279 in the head with a very blunt object. Now going 381 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:53.480 back to someone like Todd Henderson, Todd Henderson was married, 382 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:57.480 and one of the things that really was like a 383 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:04.480 missile right at his chair was when his wife basically 384 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:09.480 testified and told police that he was lying because Todd 385 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:12.640 Henderson said, I don't even own a razor or a 386 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.200 pocket knife. I've never even had one in the last 387 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:20.920 few years, I believe, he said. Well, his wife said, well, no, 388 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.880 actually that's not true. He had a pocket knife. I 389 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:27.119 just borrowed it and he did own a razor. Well, 390 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:29.279 that goes back to the idea of these women. A 391 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:31.519 lot of them were cut their throats were cut with 392 00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:35.839 a razor or knife, very sharp knife object, and you're 393 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:37.839 going to see that also very similar to what you 394 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.119 saw in London with the Jack the Ripper murders. Now, 395 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:43.240 some of the early, some of the murders that were 396 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:47.680 earlier than this, before Henderson, Todd Henderson, and Henry Huff, 397 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.079 and even when Jim Connelly becomes somewhat of a suspect 398 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:55.319 because of the Mary Fagan and the Leos Frank episode. 399 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:59.799 Some of those women before and after that particular timeframe 400 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.880 were shot. So you do have some women I believe 401 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:05.480