WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:15.199 Special Operations, Coberts Aspionage The Team House with your host 2 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:18.960 Jack Murphy and David Bark. 3 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:27.399 Hey, folks, welcome to episode one nine seven of The 4 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.280 Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with our guest today, 5 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:35.640 Gary Harrington. Gary had a really incredible career stretching from 6 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:39.039 the Marine Corps to Special Forces, to Delta Force to 7 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:41.799 the CIA. We're really excited to have him on the 8 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:44.439 show today and Gary, thank you for joining us on 9 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:45.240 a Monday evening. 10 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.759 Hey. Thanks, it's an honor. You know. 11 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:52.280 I'll start from the top, like we do with most 12 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:53.759 of our guests. I'm going to ask you a little 13 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:56.439 bit about you know, your your upbringing and sort of 14 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:59.079 that path that took you towards military service, if you 15 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:01.280 could kind of on your origins. 16 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.319 My parents were the first of their families to ever 17 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.599 graduate high school, so my grandparents, none of them ever 18 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:15.400 made it out of elementary school. I had one grandfather 19 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:17.920 that was a hobo for a while, so when I 20 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:21.400 grew up, it was poor. It was poor, poor farmers, 21 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:26.159 and my parents were that generation that, hey, we got 22 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.040 to leave the farm and do something different. My dad 23 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:32.359 had served a couple of years in the Air Force, 24 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:36.280 and that was the time he met my mom when 25 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.439 he was home on leave and I grew up. You know, 26 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:42.560 it was western North Carolina. As a matter of fact, 27 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:48.599 when I was young, we still borrowed my grandfather's mule 28 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:53.680 to plow our garden. So, you know, it was It's 29 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:56.920 funny because those skills, you know, I still had relatives 30 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:00.439 with an outhouse. Those skills came back to served me 31 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:04.159 well in SF. You know, when you go live somewhere 32 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:07.879 in some other country and you don't have all those facilities. 33 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.039 But you know, military wasn't talked about a lot. My 34 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:14.240 dad just did his two years in the Air Force. 35 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:19.000 I married, my mom worked for a telephone company. We 36 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:23.719 moved every few years for that. And you know, my 37 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:28.000 parents were that generation that struggled real hard to make 38 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:34.439 it improve themselves from you know, barely making its meet. Now. 39 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:37.000 I can remember when they used to have to go 40 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.680 to borrow a dollar from my grandfather to make it 41 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:42.120 through the week. And we go up there and work 42 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.599 on the garden and so we could have the garden 43 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:49.680 and a hog and a cow helped get us through 44 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:55.479 the year. But hey, they kept digging and working, worked 45 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:59.000 real hard, living in the American dream and you know, 46 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:04.319 we became middle class family, lived in the suburbs, moved around. 47 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:09.680 I think I was one of those people that was shy. 48 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:14.400 I had a upbringing that probably made I was probably 49 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:21.080 not the most self confident person, which later probably fired 50 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.759 some of my drive and determination to do some of 51 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:29.479 the things that I did. But one thing we were 52 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:34.319 taught is hard work, and we were taught to take punishment, 53 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:39.360 so that that all served me well in the military. 54 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:43.919 And you know, I was pretty shy and didn't think 55 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.680 of anything about going into the military till I was 56 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:51.360 in college at a little place called Campbell College back 57 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:55.439 at the time up near Fayetteville, and there was this 58 00:03:56.520 --> 00:03:59.680 one day I was running track. There was this big 59 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:05.919 giant marine six foot four V shape officer selection officer 60 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:08.560 walking around. He came up to me and I was 61 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:15.520 a scrawny, skinny, thick glasses wearing a distance runner and 62 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:17.800 he said, Hey, I hear you think you can run 63 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:20.639 pretty good. I'm going to challenge you to a decathlon 64 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:22.879 and you can pick eight of the events and I'll 65 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:28.160 kick your ass. I was like, what, I'll pick all 66 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:32.879 the events that I can do, and in the end, 67 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:37.959 you know, I got invited to go to the platoon 68 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:42.839 leader's course up in Quantico. And you know, I hadn't 69 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:46.279 really thought about the military, but I was a smart 70 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:51.600 ass and I love challenges. So you know, that guy 71 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.160 started talking about you ain't tough enough to make it. 72 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:59.720 You know, we we exercise real hard, we'd push you 73 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:02.040 real hard, and I just don't think you're man enough. 74 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.959 Well that was all I needed to hear. So you know, 75 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:09.000 I said, hey, wait a second, you're telling me I 76 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:11.480 can go up there for six weeks. You're gonna give 77 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:14.120 me clothes, to where a place to sleep, and you're 78 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.399 going to feed me, and at the end you're gonna 79 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:20.399 pay me like seven hundred dollars. Shit, I'm there. So 80 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:29.079 off I went to the platoon leaders course. But you 81 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:33.839 know I got there and it was the discipline and 82 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:38.120 everything that happened sort of just changed me. I'd been 83 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.959 an extremely anxious person, and you know, I had an outgoing, 84 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:53.079 overt personality to cover up my shyness and anxiety. I 85 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.399 think in some respects I grew up as like a 86 00:05:56.439 --> 00:06:00.560 long ranger kind of guy. But the man I admired 87 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:05.279 was Tanto, the quiet, silent guy, the guy that my 88 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.560 grandfather told stories about from his days of hard working 89 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:17.360 men and hoboes. So the discipline in the Marine Corps. 90 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:20.360 I realized that, hey, I can take more shit than 91 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:23.959 most people can take, and I can be better than 92 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:26.920 these other people if I take more, so bring it on, 93 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.759 give me all you got. And it sort of just 94 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.959 slipped a switch in me and I became a lot 95 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:41.000 more outgoing and confident person. And from that day forward 96 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:46.720 I wanted to be a marine. And upon graduation of college, 97 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:50.279 I got commissioned as a second lieutenant Marine Corps. 98 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:54.120 And what year was I thought, you got commissioned. 99 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.800 In nineteen Well, December of seventy nine. I was one 100 00:06:57.839 --> 00:06:59.360 of those people that was on a little bit longer 101 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:05.680 than normal college course of study, so I didn't finish 102 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:08.920 in quite four years. I dropped. I had dropped out 103 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:14.079 for a year, and so December seventy nine and I 104 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:20.240 began the basic school in early nineteen eighty. 105 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:24.639 And where did you? Where did you land in the 106 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.879 Marine Corps? After getting commissioned and going through the basic course. 107 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.920 After the Basic and Infantry Officers course, I went to 108 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:37.639 Camp Lea June was in first Battalion, Second Marines. Did 109 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:41.759 a year as a platoon commander there heard about this 110 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:46.120 thing called Ricon and got offered to try out for recon. 111 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:53.240 So made it, went to Ricon. Loved that. Yeah, I 112 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:58.519 got to go to SF School School, Mountain Climbing School, 113 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.319 amphib Recon School, Scout Sniper Instructor School. I was the 114 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:09.639 second officer to ever make it through Scout Sniper Instructor 115 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:12.879 School and that was in nineteen eighty three. 116 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:17.000 So this is like the Greenside Recon part of the 117 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:21.000 Marine Corps back in those days. And what was going 118 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:22.560 on kind of in the world and in the Marine 119 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:24.720 Corps at that time, I mean, were these like the 120 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:27.079 Libya Bay Root years. 121 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.920 So I was actually the one of the first, the 122 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:38.159 first marine in Beirut in nineteen eighty two. So, you know, 123 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:41.879 back in the eighties, let's remember back then, the eighty 124 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:46.519 second Airborne was known as the Jumping Junkies, and you know, 125 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:49.639 the military, you know, we were all suffering from the 126 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:54.399 post Vietnam time, and people looked down on people in 127 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:59.679 the military and in the Marine Corps. You know, Marine 128 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:02.559 Corps Infantry, it's high diddle diddle straight up the middle 129 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:09.679 and there weren't any wars going and you know, I 130 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:12.320 I did take a float a team. My team we 131 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.879 went out on float to Beirut, wound up in Beirut. 132 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:18.600 We were supposed to do this nice med cruise where 133 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:23.440 you hit ports and have some liberty doing exercise, but 134 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:27.000 the moment we got over to the med, we charged 135 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:29.200 off to Beyrout and did the squares in the ocean 136 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:32.399 until it was time to go into bay route. The 137 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:38.639 first time we went was to evacuate the PLO and 138 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:41.960 then we went to take some liberty, and then we 139 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:48.120 came back after the massacres and the refugee camps to 140 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:53.639 start the M and F. And we stayed stayed in 141 00:09:53.720 --> 00:10:01.960 Beirut till probably November early November of eighty two. And 142 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:05.759 we're relieved by the people that ultimately were there for 143 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:08.879 the bombing the next year. 144 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.720 The embassy bombing in eighty three, or Marine Barracks bombing. 145 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:16.600 In Marine Barracks bombing in eighty three. Yeah, And you know, 146 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:19.919 it's interesting because in that time, you know, I was, 147 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:23.200 I was, I don't know, I was an outspoken person 148 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:26.240 as a marine officer. I had a mustache, which is 149 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:32.519 not you're not supposed to do, but I chose to 150 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:36.519 do so. And at one point, I was told to 151 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:39.000 move my recon guys because we were covering the beach 152 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:45.600 and doing ops, to move into that barracks. And I said, hey, 153 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:52.440 this barracks is a sitting target and we're better off 154 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.240 at being out front and doing observation. A matter of fact, 155 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:59.720 if we took everybody off shore and put them on ships, 156 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:05.320 we could put marines on rooftops doing ops and accomplished 157 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:09.600 the same mission that we're accomplishing now. And I refused 158 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:17.320 to move the marines into the into that building. The 159 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.919 you know, new people came in after that, and you know, 160 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:24.120 things changed and they moved into the building. 161 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.159 I mean, all this correct me if I'm wrong, arey, 162 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.080 But it sounds like maybe this was a bit of 163 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:33.799 a formative experience in the sense that an introduction to 164 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:38.960 terrorism against the United States and American personnel, but also 165 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.399 sort of your future in scouting out locations where you 166 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:44.240 know American forces will be housed. 167 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:49.919 Yeah it was. I mean, yes, we had no idea 168 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:54.200 what terrorism was at that time, and I'd been trained 169 00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:00.279 in in rifle, platoon and company level tactics, so I 170 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:03.759 could apply them. But here we were doing, you know, 171 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:09.200 essentially a police force mission, and you know, we still 172 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:16.159 did our ops and and did the basics, and but 173 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:18.559 it was it was an eye opening experience. And that 174 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.519 was the first time, you know that I'd been in 175 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.440 an environment where you actually talked to civilians and mixed 176 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:28.679 with civilians and you weren't sure. You know, it's like 177 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.320 low intensity conflict. Who are the bad guys and who 178 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:33.440 are the good guys? Absolutely? 179 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:38.159 And then what what after your trip to UH to Lebanon, 180 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:40.320 what was sort of the next stop for you as 181 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:41.759 a young marine officer. 182 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.919 Well, I made first lieutenant and while we were on 183 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:51.000 that float, I had the honor and this and misfortune 184 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.600 of being put in a position of commander of troops, 185 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.720 which is normally a lieutenant colonel on an amphibious ship. 186 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:00.720 But we were there, weren't that many of on the ship, 187 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.320 so I so the captain and I had a very 188 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.840 strange relationship because I was a first lieutenant and he 189 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:12.600 and I used to go at battle each other because 190 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:14.879 he'd tell me that he wanted me to order the 191 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:17.080 Marines to do this or that, and I would say, no, 192 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:21.919 certain things, I'm not going to order the Marines to do. 193 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:28.080 And so it was interesting. But I think that sort 194 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:31.559 of set the tone. I just had this knack always 195 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:36.039 most of my career kind of bucking the command structure somewhat, 196 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:40.399 and it was good practice to do that. So we 197 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:45.159 came back to Camp Lea June, and you know, by 198 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:50.120 time on the team or with the platoon ended, and 199 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.279 I got moved up to the training office, in which 200 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:58.919 I hated. I'm twenty six years old, I'm a distance runner, 201 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:04.000 I've been to Scouts, Niper Instructor School, Amphabricon School, SF 202 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:07.919 SCHOOLA school. I want to be, like, you know, an 203 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:11.799 enlisted guy and fight. And then he said, well, you're 204 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:14.519 going to be a trained officer, so I did that. 205 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:21.759 Then the bombing of the barracks happened and they were 206 00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:26.879 getting ready for Granada, and at first they said they 207 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:29.879 wanted me to take to take over and take a 208 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:34.440 platoon back into Beirut because I had boots on the ground. 209 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.159 But then I think smartly they decided that wasn't the 210 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:41.600 best thing to do to leave the person commanding that 211 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:48.039 platoon with his own platoon to do that. So I 212 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:53.600 stayed the training officer and eventually found out that oh, hey, 213 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:58.200 you've been promoted the captain. Now your time in the fleet. 214 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.759 Marine Force is over, you're going to go to You 215 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:07.480 have two choices, marine barracks Adak, Alaska or Guam. And they said, 216 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:14.440 what is marine barracks duty? And they said, well, don't worry. 217 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.039 You do that for a few years, then you hope 218 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.679 you come back as a company commander and get some 219 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.360 command time. Then you go away for staff again, and 220 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:29.600 then you can come back in higher command jobs if 221 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:33.639 you make the cut. But you know that's not what 222 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:38.720 a twenty six year old guy on adventure wants to hear, right, 223 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:46.480 So I ended up I resigned my commission and thought 224 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.080 about other things to do. I actually almost followed the 225 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:56.639 route of becoming a mercenary in Nicaragua, and fortunately that 226 00:15:56.679 --> 00:15:59.840 didn't work out. I think I'm glad now that that 227 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:07.919 and ended up being recruited by the FBI and went 228 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:12.200 through their process and took their test until I made 229 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:16.120 it to the point the final interview where I'm sitting 230 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:20.639 in front of three guys wearing suits and they're saying, okay, 231 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:22.960 you understand. And this is in the eighties, and it 232 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:28.679 was mid eighties, early nineteen eighty four that the job 233 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.960 of an FBI special agent is more admin than what 234 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:33.879 you're used to. And it's a lot of sitting in 235 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.399 the office and then you have moments where you do 236 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.679 other things and are you ready for that? And again 237 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:47.320 I was happy right that I had been accepted, but 238 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.519 I looked at these three guys in suits, and I said, 239 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:51.399 is that what I want to be doing fifteen years 240 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:55.000 from now? And again I didn't think about the future. 241 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:02.799 I thought, I don't know. I thought about the adventure, 242 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:06.119 and I guess I believe that I had a role 243 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:09.640 in life and that was to be in combat. Maybe 244 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.720 I wouldn't make it out, but I didn't have a 245 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:18.880 plan on getting older, retiring, all that kind of stuff. 246 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:25.359 So I yeah. In the moment, I accepted and I 247 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:27.759 was told, you know, I'd be getting an assignment to 248 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:32.119 go to Quantico. But after I went home and thought 249 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:35.559 about it, I was say, I can't do this. So 250 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:37.440 I called them up and asked them if I could 251 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:41.279 get out of going to Quantico, and they said, do 252 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:45.200 you know how few guys we can take that aren't 253 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:51.759 lawyers or meeting certain requirements during this time in the eighties, 254 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:56.000 And I said, I can't help, but that's not where 255 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:01.640 my heart is. So I bailed on AT Then I 256 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:06.799 went to enlist in Special Forces, went through a map station, 257 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.279 was in the process of swearing in when an officer 258 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.359 runs in and says, hey, stop, stop, stop, you can't 259 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.880 swear him in. And he pulled out a rag and 260 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:20.559 he said, here's this one line that says former officers 261 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:24.000 of other branches of the military may not enlist in 262 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:28.559 the United States Army no way. And I mean, that's 263 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:31.240 one of the reasons I bailed on the FBI, right, 264 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:35.200 and I thought, holy crap, you know that the rug's 265 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.480 been pulled out from under What am I going to do? 266 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:44.079 But you know, I fell back and I started researching, 267 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:48.079 and I found that the Army Reserve didn't have that 268 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:53.039 one line regulation in there. So I went to reserve recruiter. 269 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.200 Then he was like, hey, you're kind of splitting hairs. 270 00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.759 I said, yeah, but do you want to look at 271 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:02.359 how you can do it because it's not in your rag? 272 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:04.119 Or do you want to look at how you can 273 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:06.319 And I said, you're gonna go out there and hire 274 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.839 some eighteen year old off the street that you don't know. 275 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:12.920 Maybe they're a dropout, maybe they're a delinquent. Whatever, I said, 276 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:17.000 I've I've proved myself. I have a career, I've got 277 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:22.079 a good record, so you know, in the end they 278 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:30.759 accept me. And I enlisted in the Army Reserves for SF. 279 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:37.160 But to do that you had to enlist in a shortage. Mos. 280 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.720 So now I'm going to be SF. I'm like, wow. 281 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.319 I was in recon and I had these guys. They 282 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:47.960 were E two's and threes and they had a little 283 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:52.799 bit of years experience Special Forces guys. They're East six's 284 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.839 and East sevens. They've been doing this year is they're 285 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.319 going to be like ghosts moving through the forest. They're 286 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:02.839 going to be like this big you know, it's the ultimate, 287 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:11.039 it's everything, and so I uh and I was really 288 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.319 excited to become a demo guy or a weapons guy. 289 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:18.799 That's what we all want to be. And they said, hey, sorry, buddy, 290 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.240 we got all the weapons and demo guys we need. 291 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.720 If you want to come in in SF, your choice 292 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:31.200 is medic or como and uh, And I thought about 293 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.599 the one oh fours and the radios we've been humping around, 294 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:38.039 and my time in the Marine Corps, and I said, 295 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:40.400 I sure as hell don't want to be a como guy. 296 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.640 So I signed up to be a medic and went 297 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:48.359 through the Medic Corpse Q Course, Medic Course, Airborne School 298 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:53.519 and wound up in seventh group as a medic. 299 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:57.279 Hey guys, Our show is sponsored by ghost Bag. 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Shout 344 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:19.160 out to our brothers in Canada. 345 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:23.319 They rock. Check them out. I love ghost Bed. Thanks guys. 346 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:28.319 So Gary, you hit the ground in seventh group, and 347 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.240 I mean, is it what you were looking for? What 348 00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:32.480 you were expecting. 349 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:36.640 To some extent, you know, going through the Q course, 350 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:40.480 I was surprised how everybody kept saying, listen to the rangers. 351 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:42.440 Follow a ranger, do what a ranger does. And I 352 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:45.799 was like, to be honest, I love rangers. They're great. 353 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:53.720 But my training in the basic school, the Officer Infantry 354 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:59.799 course and the Recon school and FID Recon school, we 355 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:03.880 were really really good at patrolling, so I'm not sure 356 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:09.519 I'd learned anymore, but applied all those skills, so it 357 00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.920 was good. And then you know the thing that was 358 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:16.079 new to me was deploying and working with foreign militaries 359 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:21.039 and that, you know, that was a whole new awakening 360 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.440 at it kind of reminded me of my first days 361 00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:30.079 and as an infantry platoon commander, where you know, you 362 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:32.839 had high school dropouts, and I had a couple of 363 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:36.440 guys that had been given the choice of jail or 364 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.480 the Marine Corps. So I found that some of those 365 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:42.359 old skills came in hand. 366 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:45.519 And this is what year that you get the Seventh Group. 367 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:52.640 I hit seventh Group probably eighty five eighty six. 368 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:56.519 So the wars in Central America are still raging pretty 369 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:57.359 hot at that time. 370 00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:01.359 And that's I mean as a former Marine. I mean, 371 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:03.960 one reason I wanted to go to SF was because 372 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:06.839 during my time in the Marine Corps I did make 373 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.920 a little short trip to Honduras and I did meet 374 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:16.759 some guys at one of those Black Agency sites and 375 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:21.519 some of the folks they were training. That's how I 376 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:27.559 almost made a misstep there and wound up working in Nicaragua. 377 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:33.759 But I was so excited because I saw, you know, 378 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:38.240 this is peacetime. These SF guys, they're out there doing 379 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.160 it and if anybody's going to get mixed up in anything, 380 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.519 it's the s F guys, and that's where if you 381 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:48.640 want action, that's where you need to be as in SF. 382 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:54.319 So I was very happy to get there. We didn't, 383 00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:57.559 you know, it didn't work out quite on my top 384 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:01.640 my own personal time time frame of getting in any action. 385 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.720 But that's how I spent my time in seventh Group. 386 00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:12.160 I made several diplomas to Honduras and into Panama. As 387 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:18.440 things were getting difficult in Panama. We went down there 388 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:25.319 a couple of times, got extended there for several months 389 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.559 once as people were trying to figure out what was 390 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:36.240 going to happen. And yeah, so it was that during 391 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:39.359 that time are the is the first time I heard 392 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:44.079 people talk about this whole Delta Force thing, and you know, 393 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:49.079 I'd never really heard of it. Uh now, my story, 394 00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:53.400 Major Star, Major Park was on what do you call it, 395 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:59.079 green Light team, the forerunners to Delta Blue Light, and 396 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.880 he did not he did not he didn't care for 397 00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:05.400 people that worked for him going out for Delta. But 398 00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:08.400 I heard this thing, you know, and everybody that I 399 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.960 knew kept talking about if I get in shape, you know, 400 00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:15.200 it's so hard. And we were on a scuba team. 401 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.200 I was on a Scooba team. Scuba teams are fit teams. 402 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:27.400 We run hard, PT hard and you know. But everybody 403 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.400 was like, I have to get ready for it when 404 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:33.880 there's time, and I'm just not. I'm not that way. 405 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:38.279 I like challenges. I like if somebody says it can't 406 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:41.640 be done, I'm the guy that would say, well, you know, 407 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:46.519 try me and let's see. So I heard that they 408 00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:52.559 gave a PT test at the old eighteenth Airborne Core 409 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:55.720 by the stadium there. I think once a month or 410 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:58.440 something like that. You could just show up and take 411 00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:02.720 a PT test. So I didn't tell anybody, and I 412 00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:07.240 went and took the PT test past their PT test. 413 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:11.160 You know, I not know. We probably all know that 414 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:14.319 guys gained that system, right, they know what events there 415 00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:17.079 are and I didn't know. I just showed up. What 416 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:18.799 do you want me to do? And some of those 417 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.240 events the crab walk and some of that, the some 418 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:24.519 of the runs and stuff you do. I had no 419 00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:27.240 idea how to do them. But they, you know, I 420 00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:31.119 made the PT test. Then they send you to take 421 00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:35.119 all the psychological tests, review your records, all that stuff. 422 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:41.160 And I wound up getting an invitation to come to selection. 423 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:48.279 So and my star major did not like it, and 424 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:53.039 I was not successful my first time, you know, and 425 00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:56.839 I think it's the way I'm wired. I got really 426 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.279 motivated for it, so, I mean I was in good shape, 427 00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:05.640 but I started training crazy, and you know, every other 428 00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:11.599 day I was rucking thirteen miles for fifty pounds. Then 429 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:17.400 I would go do stairs with a rucksack for an hour. 430 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:21.240 For the days not on that, I would run six 431 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:26.240 or seven miles. And I was so motivated to get 432 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.039 ready to go that I didn't realize I was putting 433 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:35.920 myself in a deficit. I went. I went to that 434 00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:41.319 first selection, had one of those days where I've never 435 00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:44.119 had a broken compass before, but I had a broken 436 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:48.359 compass and then my backup little wrist compass on my 437 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.359 watch band. When I went to that as the backup, 438 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:58.680 it had broken off of climbing over Deadfall and had 439 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:02.960 a really really bad add day up there. They kept 440 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:07.200 me in, but then like the next day, no, yeah, 441 00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:11.920 I was, I was cut, but they said, hey, you can, 442 00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:14.880 we like your attitude. You can come back in six 443 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:17.559 you can come back and try again if you want. 444 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:21.680 I was like, sure, what's when's the next time? Six 445 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:23.960 months from now? So I said Okay, you see me 446 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:31.119 in six months. And went back that second time, and no, 447 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:38.400 it's it's odd. I was smarter. I like, I saw 448 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:40.920 pictures of myself after that first time. I looked like 449 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:45.200 there's a picture of me on the Halloween. I think 450 00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.119 I came back right before it was the fall course 451 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.599 that I was unsuccessful, and I looked like an Auschwitz victim. 452 00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:56.960 My neck was all drawn tight, my my skin was tied. 453 00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:01.920 I looked like an Auschwitz victim. And the second time, 454 00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:06.759 I just I didn't train like I did, and I 455 00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:09.160 made sure I ate well and I went up there 456 00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:14.559 healthy and with a good weight on me, and I 457 00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:20.000 tried to relax some a little bit more drawing the legs. 458 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:22.519 And yeah, it worked out and made it. 459 00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.039 And so you make it through selection and then go 460 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:29.519 to OTC and I mean, what was that experience? Like, 461 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.000 I mean, what you're we at now nineteen ninety or so. 462 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:40.039 Yeah, and well I got to OTC. Was I mean 463 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:48.240 you talk about training OTC is I mean you shoot 464 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:51.039 more rounds? Well, I forget what they used to compare 465 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:54.440 it to that each individual shoots as much as or 466 00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:58.119 more rounds than a company of infantry does something like. 467 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:03.279 That like I've heard like a million round it was 468 00:32:03.319 --> 00:32:03.920 something like that. 469 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:08.200 You know it for the first couple of months. I mean, 470 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:12.200 just to get your hands used to firing that much 471 00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:20.359 was a lot, and it I mean, it really hones 472 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:25.720 your skills. I mean, special Ops, special Forces isn't. I 473 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.279 don't think it's a lot of super things. It's doing 474 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:33.319 the basics with a very high degree of proficiency. And 475 00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:38.480 the OTC teaches that there's a lot Yes, you learn 476 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:46.519 CQB and some other special techniques, but there's a lot 477 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:49.279 of time is spent on doing the basics of shoot, 478 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:55.240 move and communicate very very well, and those sort of 479 00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:00.160 things that never leave you all these years later. Like 480 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.839 in the Agency, when I go back to weapons squall, 481 00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:05.400 they would always give me a hard time because I 482 00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:12.119 don't shoot, just when it's time for the recall and 483 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.480 they want to put me up against some Delta guy 484 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:19.279 or some Special Ops or Ranger guy and try to 485 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:24.400 egg us on to have a shooting contest. But those 486 00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:29.599 those that you do the reps so many times that 487 00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:31.519 it's just ingrained in you. 488 00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:35.799 I mean from some of the folks I've talked to, 489 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:37.799 they say like it was the time of their life. 490 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:40.480 All these like counter terrorism scenarios they keep putting me 491 00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:43.839 through and that are challenging, but sounds like it's it's 492 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:44.759 also a lot of fun. 493 00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:49.759 Well it's fun. But you know one of the things 494 00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:53.880 that happens is, I mean, you think you've made the 495 00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:59.920 big time, and you know, I'm I'm one of those 496 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:03.799 people that probably put too much emphasis on it. It 497 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:08.880 was being that was all I wanted to be, and 498 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.440 you know, things about family and everything else just go away. 499 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:20.480 And by this time I was married and had kids, 500 00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:26.800 and but that was what was important. I mean, you 501 00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:29.159 think you're going to save the country, You're going to 502 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:32.000 be when I went to when I went to Marine 503 00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:35.079 Sniper school, that was the time, you know, the Ayatola 504 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:39.480 Homiani was there, and I used to dream about laying 505 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:43.480 laying behind the a or lying behind a sniper rifle 506 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:47.079 and seeing him through my scope and taking that shot. 507 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:51.519 Well then you go through the the OTC and you 508 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.880 dream of doing the assault like like Seal Team six 509 00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:59.800 did to get ben Laden right, and it's you know, 510 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:07.000 it felt just great. And I eventually wound up an 511 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:12.239 a squadron and was serving there. During my time in 512 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:18.760 a squadron, I because I spoke Spanish, got an opportunity 513 00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:23.440 to go to in nineteen ninety two to a Central 514 00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:30.920 American country where there were some activities going on that 515 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:36.360 Delta was taking part in down there, and during that 516 00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:45.559 time I had a disagreement misunderstanding with the guy in 517 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:50.239 charge of that, and one thing led to another, and 518 00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:55.440 then I got sent back home and eventually I got 519 00:35:55.480 --> 00:36:04.119 the invitation to leave the Delta unit. You know, the 520 00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:08.599 then Colonel Boyken told me, yeah, he thought about keeping me, 521 00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:13.000 but you know, my somebody else down the chain it 522 00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:16.280 was more involved with that didn't want me around. So 523 00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:20.039 I got invited to take a height and find somewhere 524 00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:20.719 else to live. 525 00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.079 So, yeah, that was a This was like a like 526 00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:26.760 a personality conflict. 527 00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:32.199 Yeah, it started. We had a misunderstanding on this thing 528 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:37.199 we were doing, and it blew into stuff and probably 529 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:41.239 pauls my the way my personality is. I got phone 530 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.480 calls that said, you can't talk about this to your wife, 531 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.800 your team leader, or anybody back in the States. You 532 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:51.880 can't say anything. And so I was holding all this 533 00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:57.079 stuff inside and I couldn't understand what was happening because 534 00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:01.840 I like, well, nobody's even asking me nobody's talking to me, 535 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:11.960 So you know, eventually, eventually I made a choice to 536 00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:16.039 talk to somebody I thought was a neutral person that 537 00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:21.760 I could speak to with confidence. But then they felt 538 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:25.960 there were things that they needed to tell somebody else. 539 00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:29.480 And basically what I did was I sort of just 540 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:35.159 threw fuel on the fire unknowingly, and a lot of 541 00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.880 fingers started going back and forth, and in the end, 542 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:43.639 I'm the newer guy. I got asked to go. And 543 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:47.119 it was a devastating blow. This is I had built 544 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:52.079 all my self worth on that, and I thought, this 545 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:56.280 is it. All my career being a marine, being how 546 00:37:56.360 --> 00:38:02.280 I viewed my purpose in life. Everything I did was 547 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:08.280 based on that. And then the day that ended, you know, 548 00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:11.159 what what are you going to do? You know, you 549 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:15.039 walk sometimes there's things in life that hit you like that. 550 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:19.360 So everything you believe, you have to question what do 551 00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:23.760 I believe about myself? What do I believe about how 552 00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:29.639 people perceive me? And you know, my future plans and 553 00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:34.480 goals are gone, so I'm going to have to start 554 00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:37.920 at the basics and and and refigure my whole plan. 555 00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:43.480 And that that's a it's a difficult thing to do 556 00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:48.840 for me. It was especially hard because now you've got 557 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:52.079 to go find another job in the military. And you 558 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:54.280 go and you go, how you're coming from Delta? You 559 00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:56.960 are good, good, We're good to have you. Uh and 560 00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:01.039 uh wait a second, why why don't you leave? Though? 561 00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:08.039 And you know, I never went into detail or tried 562 00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:11.199 to make excuses. I said, hey, I had a disagreement. 563 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:14.719 I got asked to go take a look at my 564 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:22.840 record and as a marine and as a soldier, and 565 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:24.800 and then judge me on what I do, because I mean, 566 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:26.960 if you if you think I'm a you know, a 567 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:31.000 ship bird whatever, and hey, I'm I'm happy to look 568 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:31.920 for somewhere else. 569 00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:34.239 Did did the did the unit offer you a bit 570 00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:36.840 of a soft landing, because this wasn't like an ethical 571 00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:39.880 or an integrity issue per se. Did they try to, like, 572 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.559 you know, help you find a new place to settle, to. 573 00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:47.239 Be honest, I I they must have. I don't remember 574 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:51.840 how how how that happened, but I wound up for 575 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:59.320 a very short time going to the center and writing 576 00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:04.119 a manual on I think one of the first sephardic manuals. 577 00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:08.079 Oh really yeah, at a special warfare center. 578 00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:11.920 Yeah, in nineteen ninety two. 579 00:40:11.960 --> 00:40:15.000 Because there was oh Man, Yeah, so I probably know 580 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.840 a bunch of people that you cross paths with. Some 581 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:20.320 cool people were involved in like standing up that course 582 00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:23.880 at the time, and there was like a I don't 583 00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:25.360 know how deep you want to get into it, but 584 00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.079 I mean I know there was like a stack of 585 00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:31.920 SOPs that the unit used, and that had to be 586 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.679 kind of like distilled into what Sephardic was going to teach, 587 00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:35.760 as I recall. 588 00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:36.599 And. 589 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:42.199 I didn't. I didn't, I wasn't part of I think 590 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:44.920 I was dealing more with a language part of it 591 00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:48.920 and dealing with the secretary there, and we had we 592 00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:53.119 had the documents and trying to get that turned into manual. 593 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:57.360 But then after a few months, I got asked to 594 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:03.599 if I wanted to go to Norfolk, Virginia and work 595 00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:08.480 as the Army rep to the Naval Safety Center to 596 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:16.119 oversee the diving safety of all army diving. So that 597 00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:18.360 was it was a different thing. I was the only 598 00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:22.159 Army guy and I was an SF diver, but here 599 00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:26.800 I was with master divers, hard hat divers. There was 600 00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:34.159 one Seal Corman there, so everybody else was hard hat 601 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:40.719 divers and we we would we divided into little teams 602 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.840 and we traveled around the world. Anywhere there was a 603 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:48.760 US military command that had dive equipment, we did the 604 00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:55.400 inspections on the equipment and on their program and some 605 00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.920 of their record keeping and did that stuff. So it 606 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:03.960 was an interest in time. A lot of travel involved. 607 00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:09.719 I got to go to get qualified in hard hat 608 00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:14.400 diving and the seat was a c R fifteen, the 609 00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:15.719 mixed gas rig. 610 00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:16.400 Oh wow. 611 00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.599 While I was there, so that it was it was interesting, 612 00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:23.039 and the Seals wanted me to show up to do 613 00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:27.119 their inspections because the hard hat divers hated the Seals 614 00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:31.599 and always they were always extra extra hard on them. 615 00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:34.360 So I did that. 616 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.159 I mean, you're also like becoming like highly qualified as 617 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.480 a soldier between all of your Marine Corps training SF 618 00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:46.800 you know, being a medic training, you went through OTC 619 00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:50.159 in the unit free fall, all this additional dive training. 620 00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:52.159 I mean kind of you were a busy guy. 621 00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:55.559 Yeah, owen I Court. I went to owen I course 622 00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:00.960 before I went active duty, so I guess I missed 623 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:04.599 the part that. So I came home as a reservist 624 00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:08.320 with eleventh Special Forces Group when I signed in and 625 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:10.440 went through the Q course and all that, but I 626 00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:13.199 was honest with everybody and said, I don't plan on 627 00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.960 remaining a reservist. As soon as I can go active, 628 00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:19.159 I am, and so I sort of back toward the rules. 629 00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:23.239 While I couldn't enlist on active I did enlist in 630 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:26.880 the reserves. I did get qualified in a shortage gm OS, 631 00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:29.159 and then there was a rag that said, if you're 632 00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:32.480 qualified in a shortagem OS, you can come on active duty. 633 00:43:33.639 --> 00:43:40.599 So I I handcrried my paperwork after I think that 634 00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:46.960 after I finished oh And high school and literally from 635 00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:50.039 driving all around the country. In two weeks, I went 636 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:52.800 from being a reservist to getting an assignment to a 637 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:53.519 seventh group. 638 00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:56.119 I love the workarounds. 639 00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:01.639 Yeah, And I got to meet I remember Henry Boone 640 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:05.639 some major bone. Well, for there might be some people 641 00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:09.519 out there. He was the person I had to see 642 00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:12.519 to get accepted on an active duty and I was 643 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:16.079 wearing a mustache. Henry Bong was the guy that he hated. 644 00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:22.079 He was a very regulation focused individual. He hated mustaches, 645 00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:24.599 and he was kept staring at my mustache. And I'd 646 00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:26.960 heard all these stories about him, and I said, some 647 00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:32.199 major bone, do you like? Is there something wrong with 648 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:36.400 my mustache? And he goes, well, you know, I think, well, 649 00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:39.840 waste like you if you can just make sure it 650 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.599 stays within regulations. As a former marine, you know I 651 00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:46.760 would expect that from you. I said, all right, I'll 652 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.519 just shave it off. So I didn't. I did say 653 00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:50.920 you had to shave it off. I said, I don't 654 00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:53.559 want every time I walk around you staring at me 655 00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:57.679 trying to find a hair out of place, so I'll 656 00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:06.880 shave it off. Yeah. So I lifted that dive program. 657 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:12.360 It kind of got more known, and then then people 658 00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:17.599 started clamoring for it and won that job. So eventually 659 00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:24.559 I got reassigned to fifth Special Forces Group in nineteen 660 00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:31.280 ninety six, and I showed up at fifth Special Forces 661 00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:37.480 Group and in processed went to five four five as 662 00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:46.079 my first Fifth Group team and Terry Peters was my 663 00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:49.079 was my team sergeant. Was a great team, had a 664 00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:56.800 great time, and you know, we deployed to Kuwait and 665 00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:01.360 did a bunch of training deployments and just you know, 666 00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:04.199 really cut my teeth on the Middle East. Then got 667 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:10.920 used to working with Middle Easterners. The group commander who 668 00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:15.920 happened to uh we both know him, have been my 669 00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:21.000 squadron commander at Delta one day asked me to come 670 00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:28.159 to his office. So I thought, oh shit, I'm he's 671 00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:32.159 he's uh, after all this time, he's uh, he's got 672 00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:36.639 something for me. So I went up there thinking, you know, 673 00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:39.599 I'm going to get clobberd. But what he told me 674 00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:43.800 was that he wanted to lead the way back to 675 00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:51.320 an emphasis on unconventional warfare, and you know, would I 676 00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:53.480 you know, he was counting on me to take a 677 00:46:53.559 --> 00:46:59.519 lead role in trying to push that effort forward. And 678 00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:04.000 so there was some initiatives that was in the earlier 679 00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:08.920 days of the ASoP course, advantaced Special Operations Technique course 680 00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:13.199 and those things. I started coordinating with the guys and 681 00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:18.760 fifth Group that were kind of leading the charge on that. 682 00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:22.639 Steve Potitt was one of them. 683 00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:27.400 And this is just a trying to dip back into 684 00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:29.760 history a little bit. But like this is like the 685 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:32.320 was a somewhat like notorious of the quote unquote like 686 00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:35.199 long haired teams and special forces and the guys who 687 00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:40.000 did like clandestine things, which is correct me if I'm wrong, Gary, 688 00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:42.360 didn't that grow out of the RST mission. 689 00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:47.400 It did so at the time that there was no 690 00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:53.400 teams other than the RST that were long haired teams, right, 691 00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:57.400 so they were and they were in fifth group. So 692 00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:05.360 we had both teams, the team that worked with DARPA 693 00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:10.519 and DITRA and then the RSTS were the two kind 694 00:48:10.519 --> 00:48:14.440 of long haired teams. And it's kind of odd because 695 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.239 fifth group was trying to stand up at SIF. When 696 00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:23.599 I showed up, I hadn't done it yet. Well and 697 00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:26.039 and it's funny because I showed up. Everybody, Oh, Delta guy, 698 00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:29.400 you're a student, You're an assaulter. You know you got 699 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:34.280 uh and and that's what you are. But I was 700 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:37.599 assigned to a scuba team because I was a d 701 00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:41.920 MT qualified medic. You know, you're you're never son major 702 00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:44.840 is never going to let you off scuba team and 703 00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:53.559 uh so I you know I was, But I said, well, 704 00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:55.760 I'm as signed to a u w A team and 705 00:48:55.920 --> 00:48:58.159 I'm throwing all my effort into that. You know, a 706 00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:01.159 lot of people wanted me to try to change and 707 00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:04.039 come over. You know, I've been to Sniper instructor school 708 00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:09.639 as a marine, but you know, I'm a person. You 709 00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:13.440 tell me what my lane is, I'm gonna do my 710 00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:15.079 best to do that. 711 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:17.440 And that was nice of the group commander. I guess 712 00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:21.559 to offer some sort of reproach MA after a falling out. 713 00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:26.159 Yeah, because you know, technically, to be honest, that was 714 00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:30.960 the same guy that you know, my previous conversation with 715 00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:33.000 him was I'm going to make sure you get kicked 716 00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:40.800 out of the army. So I was, Yeah, it was confusing, 717 00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:44.119 but hey, I was glad for the opportunity. And that's 718 00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:46.800 one of the things that drives you, you know, to 719 00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.679 have had what I had and leave Delta the way 720 00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:53.400 I did. I mean, that was a big driver to me, 721 00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:57.519 is like I have to prove myself. I've got to 722 00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.280 drive myself to the ends, no matter what what it 723 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:06.639 takes to show that I'm not uh just defined by 724 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:11.719 getting kicked out of Delta, you know, for a disagreement 725 00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:18.280 that happened one time over a long career. And so yeah, 726 00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:25.239 I pushed real hard at everything I did, and I 727 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:33.119 got it. Coincided with my first wife and deciding she 728 00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:38.320 had greener pastors and that her her role was to 729 00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:41.840 be somewhere else other than done with me. So about 730 00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:48.000 that time after she left, you know, I started, I 731 00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:53.320 went to a SID and I had a very interesting 732 00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:57.920 time at a SID. And I have this thing of 733 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:00.239 when I go through schools. If there's some and I 734 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:07.039 don't like, I challenged the instructors and so I challenged 735 00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.760 the instructors pretty hard and they in turn were pretty 736 00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:16.280 hard on me. But you know it, it worked out well, 737 00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:22.679 and I think I probably built a reputation with some 738 00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:27.719 of the things that happened at school as being innovative, 739 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:33.360 maybe having some skills, and so you know, I finished 740 00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:36.960 that school. Well then just like a month later, I 741 00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:43.039 got called down to SOCKSCND and they were talking to 742 00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:50.440 me and you know about some classified programs that they 743 00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:54.039 were wanting to start. So I got selected for that, 744 00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.880 you know, and I felt again that's one of those 745 00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:58.719 things that drove me because I was like, wait a second, 746 00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:02.719 of everybody in all Special Forces and all Fifth Group 747 00:52:03.079 --> 00:52:09.159 and Delta to choose from, I'm getting chosen. So yeah, 748 00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:12.840 I was. I was whatever they wanted. I was like, hey, 749 00:52:12.920 --> 00:52:18.559 I'm for it. So off I went to Yemen and 750 00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:24.519 operated there by myself for a while, waiting for a 751 00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:27.480 team to join me to do a d mining mission. 752 00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:35.559 And you know, during that time is was my first 753 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:39.079 time up close at trying to do like assessments. I 754 00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:42.960 was sent ahead of time to work in the embassy, 755 00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:48.280 and yeah, I spent like two months going through training 756 00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:52.679 and getting all the right clearances so I could read 757 00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:58.679 all the human and segent in the various offices and 758 00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:04.920 then in an embassy that hold those and I was 759 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:09.840 to make that assessment about the security for follow on 760 00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:15.280 special forces teams. During that time that I was there 761 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:20.159 is when the situation in Yemen first started, we'll talk 762 00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:25.239 on nineteen ninety eight first started to go downhill. The 763 00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:30.960 Islamic Army of Aiden was posting threats against any Americans. 764 00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:36.239 The line that the ambassador had and all the embassy 765 00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:41.840 had was Yemen is a very safe place. Yes, al 766 00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:48.320 Qaeda passes through here and gets documents here, but they 767 00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:51.519 do nothing here. It's the peaceful place. It's like an 768 00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:56.039 R and R place. And you know, Yemen is an 769 00:53:56.119 --> 00:54:00.559 up and coming Middle Eastern country. A matter of fact, 770 00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:04.400 they were planning on Hillary Clinton coming out to visit 771 00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:13.320 as first Lady. And so the party line was, Yeah, 772 00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:16.199 there was a group of like three guys with a 773 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:19.760 fax machine that called themselves the Islamic Armory of Aiden, 774 00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:23.840 but they are not capable of doing anything or just 775 00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:27.599 a bunch of blowhards. Yemen at the time, European tourists 776 00:54:27.679 --> 00:54:32.239 used to go there to get kidnapped, because they would 777 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:35.360 kidnap you and take you down the like Hadramont region 778 00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:40.559 and treat you well and feed you and house you. 779 00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:42.760 Is it kind of like, you know, give you good 780 00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:45.599 stories to tell. And as soon as the government would 781 00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:50.159 access and give them some vehicles or wells, they would 782 00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:54.639 let people go free. So I think that figured into 783 00:54:54.800 --> 00:55:00.760 the ambassador and the intelligence communities assessment that hey, nothing 784 00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:05.480 much is you know, it's not dangerous here in Yemen. 785 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:12.360 But during my time there, things started happening. There were 786 00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:17.320 where there was a car bomb in Sinnah out near 787 00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:24.079 the German consulate. There were more acts of violence, no 788 00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:28.840 big terror attacks or anything, but but it's to me 789 00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:35.440 it started. It was that things are escalating. Eventually, the 790 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:39.679 team that was going to participate in d mining showed 791 00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:44.559 up and I went with them down to Aiden and 792 00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:49.360 we set up and Aiden started operating and Aiden. During 793 00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:54.679 our time in Aiden, there was a police checkpoint that 794 00:55:55.079 --> 00:56:00.199 caught a car load of six guys I think in 795 00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:05.840 it that had explosives, aks, RPGs and a diagram of 796 00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:11.679 the little hotel that we were renting to stay in that, 797 00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:21.239 so they arrested them. Those became known as the Aiden six. Later, 798 00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:25.320 like a month later, there was the Islamic Armory of 799 00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:32.519 Aiden did take hostages in Aiden at the British consulate 800 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:36.920 took some British hostages and there it ended in a 801 00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:42.519 hostage standoff sort of out outside of town. It was 802 00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:48.599 a fiasco. The the bad guys were in a depression 803 00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:52.960 in a circle. They had the hostages stand with their 804 00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:57.199 legs spread around them and they were firing between their legs. 805 00:56:57.599 --> 00:57:02.239 And of course the U the Yemen army was not 806 00:57:03.079 --> 00:57:07.280 well trained, so they were kind of in a circle shooting, shooting, 807 00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:10.440 and everybody there. So I think a couple of hostages 808 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:14.400 were killed and not probably some of them by friendly fire. 809 00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:22.559 But that changed my assessment. You know, I'm still reading 810 00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:30.559 the traffic and I'm seeing that. Okay, it's true al 811 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:35.400 Qaeda is not active here, and but they have communications 812 00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:38.599 here and they passed through here. Now I have this 813 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:43.599 Islamic Army of Aiden that has shown that they not 814 00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:48.440 only have access to arms and ammunition, but they're willing 815 00:57:48.559 --> 00:57:52.920 to take violent action, and they're willing to conduct operations 816 00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:57.639 against Western interest. And now they may be inept, and 817 00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:02.800 they were truly inept. But in my assessment, all that 818 00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:07.440 remained to happen for them to be you know, deadly, 819 00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:12.920 would be to either accept operational control, meeting, training, and 820 00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:20.599 direction from al Qaeda, or from hosting an al Qaeda cell. 821 00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:24.960 So now you know, we're in nineteen ninety nine and 822 00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:29.320 the US had just signed the agreement to allow US 823 00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:35.440 ships to start coming in to Aiden. But again this 824 00:58:35.599 --> 00:58:41.239 from me, My assessment was all enabled by my past history. 825 00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:45.800 But now my time in Delta and learning about terrorism 826 00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:51.840 and studying terrorism, and so I think it all helped 827 00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:56.599 me form this opinion. The ambassador told me I was crazy. 828 00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:03.360 The Defense attached a quietly on the side, advised me 829 00:59:03.480 --> 00:59:05.480 not to get on the wrong style of the ambassador, 830 00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.920 to do like he and the other people including the 831 00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:13.400 agency did, which was, you know, shake their heads and 832 00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:18.760 say you're right. But it bothered me. I was as 833 00:59:18.960 --> 00:59:22.679 time was coming for that mission to end and go home. 834 00:59:22.719 --> 00:59:25.840 I was like, I think, how can I go home 835 00:59:26.800 --> 00:59:32.320 and something happens here two Americans? Americans lose their lives 836 00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:37.960 and I didn't do anything. It was just it reminded 837 00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:41.400 me of beirute, because like, Okay, saying, here we go 838 00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:46.920 the same thing. For political reasons, she the ambassador did 839 00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:51.320 not want an assessment going out that would stop Hillary 840 00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:55.280 Clinton from coming up. Was the big feather in her cap. 841 00:59:56.079 --> 01:00:01.360 And but it bobbed me to the point that I said, Okay, 842 01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:06.000 I'm not having success through the embassy, but as an 843 01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:09.320 s F guy, I can write an area in assessment 844 01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:14.360 and send that out through military channels and then I 845 01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:17.719 can get the word out right and I'm not violating 846 01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:20.840 any role. Well, I didn't know, because in my training 847 01:00:20.840 --> 01:00:24.960 nobody trained you up that I didn't realize that the 848 01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:30.039 ambassador has the right to see everything that's written and 849 01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:33.039 to weigh in on it. And so I sent it, 850 01:00:33.679 --> 01:00:36.719 you know, use the sackcom and sent my report out 851 01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:41.920 and informed the embassy after. And that was a pretty 852 01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:47.239 major thing to do. It prompted a flight by the 853 01:00:47.280 --> 01:00:51.400 ambassador down to Aiden, called us all in and chewed 854 01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:55.719 us all out, and she said that she would rather 855 01:00:55.800 --> 01:00:58.199 run the risk, and she wouldn't let us have our 856 01:00:58.280 --> 01:01:03.679 rifles there in Aiden, with all this going on, we 857 01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:08.199 were pistols only, and our rifles were locked away in 858 01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:12.920 Sna several hours away. And she made this statement that hey, 859 01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:16.000 I'd rather run the risk of one of you getting 860 01:01:16.119 --> 01:01:18.599 hurt than the risk that one of you would hurt 861 01:01:18.639 --> 01:01:19.840 an innocent civilian. 862 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:26.599 Yeah, this is sounding negligent at this point. Yeah, well 863 01:01:26.840 --> 01:01:29.199 to me it was. 864 01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:36.239 You know, but your soldiers, when you're in a foreign country, 865 01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:41.199 state department has a final say, and so you know, 866 01:01:41.599 --> 01:01:44.880 we went on. I left, Well, that was nineteen ninety nine. 867 01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:51.639 Now after we know now that in January of two thousand, 868 01:01:53.360 --> 01:02:01.119 terrorists and I saw the second that should have indicated 869 01:02:02.480 --> 01:02:06.119 something was going on. Let's just say that the second, 870 01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:10.119 if you go back and look at everything that happened, 871 01:02:10.840 --> 01:02:15.840 sort of backed up my assessment. But in January of 872 01:02:16.039 --> 01:02:20.039 two thousand was when terrorists loaded a boat with explosives 873 01:02:20.280 --> 01:02:24.000 and they tried to attack the USS the Sullivans. But 874 01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:28.679 as they made their run towards the boat, it sank. 875 01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:32.760 Too many explosives, not a good enough boat. It plowed 876 01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:37.639 under and it sank and we never nobody knew about that. 877 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:42.079 But they recovered the explosives, and you know, later in 878 01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:48.519 October made the successful attack on the coal then and 879 01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:52.480 I was by that time. I left Yemen, went back 880 01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:56.440 to the States and then immediately got trained up and 881 01:02:56.599 --> 01:03:03.559 sent as I guess I became the first, the first 882 01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:09.119 guy to do these sort of classified go somewhere, do 883 01:03:09.280 --> 01:03:15.519 your assessment using whatever techniques that you've been trained in 884 01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:22.679 and some classified stuff. And so I got sent back 885 01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:24.679 to the Middle East and I was in another country. 886 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:28.880 Well then when the attack, when the coal happened, I 887 01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:36.960 got flown back to Socom to do a classified deposition 888 01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:42.840 to go to the Coal Commission. But guess what I 889 01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:47.000 thought the State Department was political. I did not know 890 01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:54.840 that Socom can be political too, because when I you know, 891 01:03:54.880 --> 01:03:57.039 I gave you a quote earlier about what the ambassador 892 01:03:57.079 --> 01:04:01.280 said about us and their rifles. And there were two 893 01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:06.800 points that I made on my deposition, and when I 894 01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:10.519 saw the final wording of my deposition, those two things 895 01:04:10.519 --> 01:04:13.320 were struck out, and I was like, hey, wait a second, 896 01:04:13.400 --> 01:04:15.679 and Delta, we do a hot wash, and a hot 897 01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:21.440 wash is right after a training exercise. So we talked 898 01:04:21.440 --> 01:04:23.760 about the good, the bad, and the ugly to make 899 01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:26.880 things better. And I thought, that's what we're doing for 900 01:04:26.920 --> 01:04:31.119 the Coal Commission. And you know, they did not want 901 01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:36.559 to cast any dispersions toward an ambassador or State Department 902 01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:40.440 because they said, hey, every j set every SF team, 903 01:04:40.519 --> 01:04:43.440 anybody wants to get in any country, you know, the 904 01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:48.639 State Department has to approve that. So we're not we're 905 01:04:48.679 --> 01:04:49.599 not going to stay. 906 01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:55.559 A deposition, I mean, is a legal document, a sworn statement. 907 01:04:55.719 --> 01:04:58.880 I mean, I didn't even know you could go in 908 01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:00.519 there and chop out parts of it. 909 01:05:00.599 --> 01:05:05.800 You don't like, you know, what's right? I don't know. 910 01:05:06.239 --> 01:05:11.079 I know I was pissed off. I understand that because 911 01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:16.920 I thought, you know, we're soldiers. We always put the 912 01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:18.519 lives first. 913 01:05:18.559 --> 01:05:20.960 And the truth has to be first, you know, even 914 01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:21.800 if it's unpleasant. 915 01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:28.239 Yeah, the truth has to be first. So yeah, you know, 916 01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:31.559 it was tough, but you know, I went back to 917 01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:34.400 to my place in the Middle Least and kept doing 918 01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:40.320 what I was doing. I finished a year there, and 919 01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:44.880 so it was that was two thousand and I came 920 01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:50.599 back to Fifth Group at the end of the year 921 01:05:52.400 --> 01:05:56.519 and the project I had been doing in the Middle 922 01:05:56.559 --> 01:06:00.800 Least was in conjunction with the Joint Personnelity Covery Agency 923 01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:07.280 SOCKCINT sponsored it, but I was working doing some stuff 924 01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:12.800 for the JPR and a lot of some of the 925 01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:16.079 guys that worked at the jp r A had been 926 01:06:17.559 --> 01:06:23.559 guys that worked at Orange and retired start majors from Orange, 927 01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:27.880 and they knew me and some of the stuff I 928 01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:32.320 did in my classified projects, I had some successes. And 929 01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:38.880 so I came back to Fifth Group. Now I've got 930 01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:43.960 you know, long hair and civilian clothes. And I showed 931 01:06:44.039 --> 01:06:46.559 up back at group and you might I mean I 932 01:06:46.679 --> 01:06:50.599 just landed. Well, group happened to be having a change 933 01:06:50.599 --> 01:06:57.840 of command ceremony and it was John Buholland was taking command. 934 01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:02.079 So you know, I just showed in to sign in 935 01:07:02.119 --> 01:07:04.639 and say, okay, I'm getting the hell out of here 936 01:07:04.679 --> 01:07:07.320 because I got to get a haircut and shave and 937 01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:11.599 in the uniform. Well then I ran I ran into 938 01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:16.639 these sergeant majors that I that had that worked at 939 01:07:16.719 --> 01:07:20.320 jp R A, and they were, hey, welcome, you know, 940 01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:25.599 and and oh we got to we worked with John Moholland. 941 01:07:25.639 --> 01:07:30.679 You know, he was you know, Delta and uh on, 942 01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:34.960 the commander at Orange. So, uh, you got to meet him. 943 01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:37.440 I go, I can't meet him. I'm in. I don't worry, 944 01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:41.199 He's not that way. And uh, they took me and 945 01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:46.800 introduced me to John Moholland, and you know, I guess 946 01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:50.599 he put a lot of weight on them uh, and 947 01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:53.800 what they said. And yeah, you know I told him 948 01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:57.599 right off, Hey, I got asked to leave Delta. But 949 01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:04.159 he placed what those guys said about my ethics and 950 01:08:05.519 --> 01:08:11.239 work ethic and abilities. Then you know what the paper, 951 01:08:11.639 --> 01:08:14.760 what it might have said or whatever happened those years ago, 952 01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:20.439 and you know he wound up giving me an assignment 953 01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:24.640 and putting me in Fifth Group Headquarters. Two work in 954 01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:27.239 this classified cell. Fifth Group was the first ones to 955 01:08:27.319 --> 01:08:30.119 have it to kind of there was a three man 956 01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:34.560 cell that kind of oversaw. One thing was the stand 957 01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:37.520 up of the SITH, the other was the RSTS, the 958 01:08:37.560 --> 01:08:43.319 other was that other team that does other works with 959 01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:52.239 DITTRA and DARPA. And two for all the speak at programs, 960 01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:55.720 we are the ones that sort of had the rains 961 01:08:55.800 --> 01:09:00.840 on those. And you know, I don't know John mahone 962 01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:05.800 and I became pretty close. I don't know why. He 963 01:09:05.800 --> 01:09:09.800 He trusted me a lot, He asked my opinion a lot. 964 01:09:09.920 --> 01:09:14.159 We We had a lot of heart to hearts in 965 01:09:14.239 --> 01:09:19.319 his office, I think sometimes to the chagrin of some 966 01:09:19.439 --> 01:09:24.960 of the battalion commanders and and and officers, because I 967 01:09:25.439 --> 01:09:29.960 didn't pull any punches if I thought somebody was trying 968 01:09:29.960 --> 01:09:34.640 to get over or use the like the long Haired team, 969 01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:37.680 you know, to get away with something. You know, I 970 01:09:37.840 --> 01:09:42.359 call him on it. And sometimes with the stand up 971 01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:45.800 of this if I go, hey, you ain't Delta, don't 972 01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:54.199 need and but you know it worked out. And that's 973 01:09:54.239 --> 01:09:57.920 where I was sitting in two thousand and one when 974 01:09:58.640 --> 01:10:00.000 nine to eleven happened. 975 01:10:02.399 --> 01:10:04.840 And what was that day like for you? And I 976 01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:08.680 mean this is like a pivotal moment in Fifth Group history. 977 01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:11.000 I'd really be interested in, like your perspective, like what 978 01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:13.000 it was like for you, but also what it was 979 01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:16.119 like for Fifth Group that day and the days of 980 01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:18.239 months afterwards. 981 01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:24.159 It's uh some it goes for general humanity. You know, 982 01:10:24.199 --> 01:10:27.520 that was a shock to the nation and to everyone's census. 983 01:10:29.479 --> 01:10:34.960 But being a soldier, being in Fifth Group, being trained 984 01:10:35.039 --> 01:10:39.039 and having a mission, it had a different impact on me. 985 01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:44.159 I happy the moment it happened. I actually was on 986 01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:48.119 my way to the Nashville Airport. I lived on a 987 01:10:48.119 --> 01:10:53.119 little farm outside of Hopkinsville, Kentucky, and was on my 988 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:55.600 way to the airport when I heard on the radio 989 01:10:55.600 --> 01:11:00.880 about the first plane hidden. I had a little bit 990 01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:02.760 of time to spare, so I pulled in this little 991 01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:05.880 tiny cafe and went in and turned on their little 992 01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:11.159 tiny TV in time to watch the second plane hit 993 01:11:11.199 --> 01:11:15.720 the other town or the south towne. And you know, 994 01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:19.560 the first one, I'm debating, like, you know, could it 995 01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:22.760 be an accident, but there's a copilot, there's a flight engineer. 996 01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:25.640 I'm not sure that it could be an accident. I 997 01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:30.439 think it's probably terrorism, but I'm not sure. And then 998 01:11:30.479 --> 01:11:36.079 I saw the second plane boom. It's terrorism. And of 999 01:11:36.079 --> 01:11:38.000 course then they were announced They're going to shut down 1000 01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:44.000 to airspace. So coming out of that cafe, I should 1001 01:11:44.000 --> 01:11:46.279 have gone left to continue to the airport, but I 1002 01:11:46.359 --> 01:11:50.760 knew not to. I turned right and went to group headquarters, 1003 01:11:51.680 --> 01:11:54.520 and you know, I just rolled in and we started 1004 01:11:54.720 --> 01:11:58.039 planning because we didn't know what yet, but we knew 1005 01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:04.840 that we would be involved in some sort of strike 1006 01:12:05.000 --> 01:12:10.760 or payback four nine to eleven, and it was instead 1007 01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:14.439 of the panic, we were all just focused. It's like, 1008 01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:17.720 this is what I've lived to do all my years 1009 01:12:17.760 --> 01:12:22.600 as a marine, all my years as in recon in 1010 01:12:22.640 --> 01:12:26.760 Special Forces in Delta. Now is our chance. This is 1011 01:12:26.800 --> 01:12:32.279 what I'm here for. And that's what it was like 1012 01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:38.239 throughout group. It was sure we were upset, maybe a 1013 01:12:38.239 --> 01:12:43.800 little bit angry, but it was just intense focus on 1014 01:12:43.880 --> 01:12:45.960 what we had to do and getting ready to go. 1015 01:12:48.199 --> 01:12:51.279 Two days later, I was on the first when the 1016 01:12:51.319 --> 01:12:54.000 first planes flew. I was on a plane to fly 1017 01:12:54.279 --> 01:13:00.680 to Tampa to help plan the invasion as an E 1018 01:13:00.840 --> 01:13:05.119 seven as an E seven but but but because I 1019 01:13:05.239 --> 01:13:08.640 worked in this cell handling the classified stuff, part of 1020 01:13:08.680 --> 01:13:13.000 that was our you know, all the speak at stuff, 1021 01:13:13.039 --> 01:13:18.880 which you know includes relationships with the agency and d 1022 01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:21.960 I A and all that, which we knew would be 1023 01:13:22.159 --> 01:13:26.279 a lead effort. So that's mine. 1024 01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:29.760 I was soon And what what was like that when 1025 01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:32.039 you get down to Tampa and start planning the invasion, 1026 01:13:32.079 --> 01:13:34.560 Because like some of the stories, and we've interviewed on 1027 01:13:34.600 --> 01:13:37.319 this show a lot of like some of the first teams, 1028 01:13:37.720 --> 01:13:40.479 another fifth Group guy, Justin Sapp we've interviewed on the 1029 01:13:40.479 --> 01:13:41.159 show before. 1030 01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:44.640 Yeah, so I'm justin pretty well. 1031 01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:46.920 You know Justin. Yeah, I'm going to see Justin tomorrow 1032 01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:51.960 at a charity dinner for Afghan refugees. I mean, some 1033 01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:54.920 of some of the like it sounds like we were 1034 01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:58.399 going really into the unknown that we sent the paramilitary 1035 01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:01.479 teams and the initial odas like into this giant black 1036 01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:04.119 hole like where we really didn't know what was going 1037 01:14:04.159 --> 01:14:06.439 on in there, and what was it like from from 1038 01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:08.880 your perspective, Well. 1039 01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:14.800 I went down there with a young major just cut 1040 01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:18.800 getting cutting his bones, you know, getting his bones. Uh, Chris, 1041 01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:23.000 what's his last name? Was just sect deaf? Chris Miller. 1042 01:14:23.199 --> 01:14:25.199 Uh yeah, Chris, Yeah, Chris Miller. 1043 01:14:25.520 --> 01:14:27.039 He's going to be on the show next month. 1044 01:14:28.239 --> 01:14:31.479 Great. Yeah, yeah, So Chris and I go there. But 1045 01:14:31.560 --> 01:14:34.159 now let's be honest. You know, I'm I'm I'm a 1046 01:14:34.239 --> 01:14:38.000 hardened n CEO and still in these seven because of 1047 01:14:38.159 --> 01:14:43.439 the way I left Delta and and we go down there, 1048 01:14:43.680 --> 01:14:49.680 and I'm a bit of a particularly if everybody's too serious, 1049 01:14:49.800 --> 01:14:53.279 I don't like to be too serious. And that everybody 1050 01:14:53.319 --> 01:14:55.920 was serious. And we were initially told, hey, you need 1051 01:14:55.920 --> 01:14:59.239 to plan for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan at 1052 01:14:59.239 --> 01:15:03.600 the same time, what you're going to be getting me? 1053 01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:06.960 And uh, you know, shortly after they said, okay we 1054 01:15:07.000 --> 01:15:09.199 can we're going to scratch off a rack. You don't 1055 01:15:09.239 --> 01:15:14.840 have to plan for a rack. But you know, I mean, 1056 01:15:14.960 --> 01:15:17.880 as it started, everybody, you know, you imagine right after 1057 01:15:17.960 --> 01:15:25.680 nine to eleven, the intensity that everybody had to get started. 1058 01:15:25.880 --> 01:15:29.399 And I remember being in this big room and everybody's 1059 01:15:29.439 --> 01:15:32.760 waiting for a meeting start. Nobody's there to start it, 1060 01:15:33.039 --> 01:15:36.319 and it's just everybody's just all tense. So I stood 1061 01:15:36.399 --> 01:15:38.640 up on a chair and I said to you know, hey, 1062 01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:42.399 can I have everybody's attention, and you know, of course 1063 01:15:42.439 --> 01:15:47.279 it's all you know, everybody from majors to colonels, you know, 1064 01:15:48.079 --> 01:15:52.199 a shipload of them, uh turning, everybody staring at me. There, 1065 01:15:52.359 --> 01:15:54.199 I said, Now, the first thing that we're going to 1066 01:15:54.279 --> 01:15:59.159 do is I don't know, because I got no business. 1067 01:15:59.600 --> 01:16:02.279 You know, I have nothing to do with this, I said. However, 1068 01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:05.399 I stayed at a holiday inn express last night, so 1069 01:16:06.560 --> 01:16:10.600 because at the time they were doing that commercial, I 1070 01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:14.039 tries to be an expert. And at first everybody just 1071 01:16:14.079 --> 01:16:16.359 stared at me, and then after a while, you know, 1072 01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:21.520 some people laughed. But yeah, we started kicking off the 1073 01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:27.800 planning and I returned to Fifth Group and then Colonel 1074 01:16:27.840 --> 01:16:31.800 mohalland asked me to go with the first guys from 1075 01:16:31.800 --> 01:16:36.119 fifth Group out to Carcy Kanabad where we were going 1076 01:16:36.199 --> 01:16:39.600 to set up the base. So there was an initial 1077 01:16:39.640 --> 01:16:48.279 group of four of us that that went and yeah, 1078 01:16:48.600 --> 01:16:50.720 it was good. To because I wasn't on a team, 1079 01:16:51.000 --> 01:16:53.279 but I got to be in the vanguard to go, 1080 01:16:54.119 --> 01:16:57.000 and so I'd already established a record. It kind of 1081 01:16:57.039 --> 01:17:01.600 like seemed like I was always the first person to 1082 01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:04.720 go somewhere, sort of figure out what was going on 1083 01:17:05.119 --> 01:17:10.840 and then prepare for other people or give a report back. 1084 01:17:11.800 --> 01:17:17.880 And it was it was an interesting time. We we 1085 01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:21.199 landed in the middle of the night in a in 1086 01:17:21.239 --> 01:17:24.720 a light rain in Karshi Kanabad and it was old 1087 01:17:24.880 --> 01:17:33.319 this is Bekistan andrew Zbekistan and the guy the battalion 1088 01:17:33.359 --> 01:17:41.399 commander had gotten mohaland to let him go and he 1089 01:17:41.560 --> 01:17:44.279 was taking over as the three. After we landed, some 1090 01:17:44.399 --> 01:17:49.439 rangers were there, maybe some support people and that it 1091 01:17:49.560 --> 01:17:54.239 was pretty bare, but they just landed. So the rangers 1092 01:17:54.239 --> 01:17:57.119 are out on the perimeter. Nobody knows what's going on, 1093 01:17:58.439 --> 01:18:00.760 and we land in the middle of the night, and 1094 01:18:00.840 --> 01:18:05.239 that that guy's walking back and forth. And for whatever reason, 1095 01:18:05.279 --> 01:18:08.319 I guess I'm the senior n c O. He said 1096 01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:13.920 Sartin Harrington. He is, I'm the operations officer now that 1097 01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:17.880 we're on the ground, and I'd like you to walk 1098 01:18:17.920 --> 01:18:23.000 the lines, and I was, you know, it's the one 1099 01:18:23.079 --> 01:18:27.640 am we don't know where to line's on. We just landed. 1100 01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:31.239 It's and I had started, you know, we landed. I 1101 01:18:31.279 --> 01:18:35.159 did what a soldier does. I got my rucksack and 1102 01:18:35.520 --> 01:18:38.439 got out my canteen cup and was making some coffee 1103 01:18:38.439 --> 01:18:46.840 and cocoa, and when somebody came running up and said, hey, 1104 01:18:47.640 --> 01:18:51.640 the the colonel wants to see to so you know, 1105 01:18:51.680 --> 01:18:53.880 I went there. He walked, walked the lines and I 1106 01:18:53.960 --> 01:18:56.720 was like, walk the lines, I go, you can get shot. 1107 01:18:57.600 --> 01:19:01.000 We don't have we don't have a challenge password anything 1108 01:19:01.000 --> 01:19:04.920 as rangers out there on the line. Uh. And he's like, 1109 01:19:05.159 --> 01:19:08.199 I don't care. Walk the lines are troop to lines. 1110 01:19:08.359 --> 01:19:11.880 Troop the lines right, one of those officer training things 1111 01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:16.640 you get. And I said, yeah, okay, and I walked 1112 01:19:16.640 --> 01:19:22.319 back to my backpack where my my coffee and cocoa 1113 01:19:22.479 --> 01:19:25.159 was getting ready, and another guy asked me. He said, 1114 01:19:25.199 --> 01:19:26.560 what do you want you to do? I said, troop 1115 01:19:26.640 --> 01:19:28.399 the lines. He said what you going to do? I said, 1116 01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:33.079 drink my coffee and cocoa, and then so I put 1117 01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:37.000 on my my gore text and drank my coffee and coco. 1118 01:19:37.880 --> 01:19:40.279 Then I took off my gortext so I could get 1119 01:19:40.279 --> 01:19:44.760 wet and then I went back and uh to where 1120 01:19:44.800 --> 01:19:48.319 he was and he said, did you troop the lines? 1121 01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:52.199 I said, everything's fine. So he goes outstanding, outstanding, starting 1122 01:19:52.199 --> 01:20:00.199 to herring. Went on from there, and you know, then 1123 01:20:00.479 --> 01:20:04.399 things built up. A couple of days later, I drove 1124 01:20:04.720 --> 01:20:10.039 from carci Kanabad up to tash Kent to hook up 1125 01:20:10.039 --> 01:20:17.560 with the Agency and to facilitate the Agency coming down 1126 01:20:17.720 --> 01:20:22.800 to the base where we would launch the agency teams 1127 01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:26.079 out of and support the agency teams. And so I 1128 01:20:26.159 --> 01:20:29.119 was in that cell that stood up. I stood up 1129 01:20:29.119 --> 01:20:33.119 that cell to do that, the fusion cell between the 1130 01:20:33.159 --> 01:20:39.199 Agency and the Army. And of course Justin Sap had 1131 01:20:39.239 --> 01:20:44.000 been detailed from the Army to be on Team Alpha. 1132 01:20:44.159 --> 01:20:49.359 So I met all of all of Team Alpha. Yeah 1133 01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:57.479 Jr's team, and Alex and Mike Span Dave the other 1134 01:20:57.560 --> 01:21:03.239 guys Justin So you know, I got back and then 1135 01:21:04.439 --> 01:21:08.920 the CIA started sending its teams in and we we 1136 01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:13.880 would oversee the infill and resupply, and then as agency 1137 01:21:13.960 --> 01:21:19.720 teams developed the situation, then we started putting SF teams 1138 01:21:19.760 --> 01:21:25.640 in with them to work with the locals. Mostly in 1139 01:21:25.720 --> 01:21:29.880 the s F mission was mostly at that point one 1140 01:21:30.239 --> 01:21:34.359 we the medical support was key because there essentially wasn't 1141 01:21:34.479 --> 01:21:41.640 enough medical support and the call for fire, and you know, 1142 01:21:42.159 --> 01:21:46.439 I think the other thing that's always short and when 1143 01:21:46.479 --> 01:21:50.800 you stand up that many teams are Commo guys. So 1144 01:21:50.880 --> 01:21:57.439 the agency was really sort of raping Fifth Group and 1145 01:21:57.439 --> 01:22:02.640 and and groups in all taken medics and como guys 1146 01:22:03.039 --> 01:22:07.119 to fill out their teams. I remember Rumsfeld was, I 1147 01:22:07.239 --> 01:22:11.720 give them them any more people. And the things started 1148 01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:15.680 happening in Afghanistan on the ground so fast that just 1149 01:22:15.840 --> 01:22:21.399 more and more teams needed to go in. And I 1150 01:22:21.479 --> 01:22:25.159 was frustrated because I'm like, shit, you know, I'm going 1151 01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:29.119 to miss my chance. I've done a whole life for this, 1152 01:22:29.720 --> 01:22:32.720 and I'm good. Like the thing at ASOT, you know, 1153 01:22:32.960 --> 01:22:37.920 is sort of preparing a pilot team and I had, 1154 01:22:38.279 --> 01:22:41.800 let's just say I had excelled at some of those 1155 01:22:42.920 --> 01:22:48.199 actions and activities and I thought, you know, I need 1156 01:22:48.199 --> 01:22:51.199 to be one of these teams. And then they started 1157 01:22:51.279 --> 01:22:54.800 running out of the agency couldn't get enough teams. I'm like, well, 1158 01:22:54.840 --> 01:22:58.479 i'll take a team. I'll go in, but way that 1159 01:22:58.640 --> 01:22:59.079 you can't. 1160 01:22:59.119 --> 01:23:03.000 You know, I had someone tell me once Gary that 1161 01:23:03.720 --> 01:23:07.720 because of the mission you specifically referenced doing the ASOT 1162 01:23:07.880 --> 01:23:10.560 unconventional warfare mission in the Middle East that that actually 1163 01:23:10.600 --> 01:23:13.800 set up Fifth Group pretty well to go into Afghanistan 1164 01:23:13.840 --> 01:23:15.920 as far as like having some understanding of how to 1165 01:23:15.920 --> 01:23:17.880 do that, I mean, I guess you were kind of 1166 01:23:17.920 --> 01:23:19.000 the tip of the spear for that. 1167 01:23:19.960 --> 01:23:24.279 Well, it did as far as that part goes. But also, 1168 01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:29.399 just to be honest, any SF team, we all hated FIDD, right, 1169 01:23:30.239 --> 01:23:34.720 but doing FID, whether it was Central America or in 1170 01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:39.600 Kuwait where you know, people don't want to work, don't work. 1171 01:23:39.680 --> 01:23:42.760 It's a different culture, different work ethic, and trying to 1172 01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:47.000 get them to do stuff and to do military operations 1173 01:23:48.439 --> 01:23:51.920 does prepare you for what we ran into there, right, 1174 01:23:52.760 --> 01:23:57.880 And so you know, I was pissed. I wanted and 1175 01:23:58.279 --> 01:24:01.159 I guess I got better and I was like, well, shit, 1176 01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:03.399 you know, I just want to go back to the 1177 01:24:03.439 --> 01:24:06.840 States then, because after I've been there and I set 1178 01:24:06.840 --> 01:24:10.479 all this up and got everything going, I don't want 1179 01:24:10.520 --> 01:24:15.079 to sit here and just keep watching other teams other 1180 01:24:15.119 --> 01:24:22.479 people go in. Then John mohalland asked me and some 1181 01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:26.520 other guys to come with him on his infill because 1182 01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:34.319 we had just just taken Bagram Airfield. So I went 1183 01:24:34.359 --> 01:24:40.840 in with him, and we were there and after a 1184 01:24:40.880 --> 01:24:45.359 few days, it's around Thanksgiving. We'd spent Thanksgiving there on 1185 01:24:45.399 --> 01:24:51.079 the ground in Afghanistan. Of two thousand, the planning had 1186 01:24:51.119 --> 01:24:54.640 started spinning up that Tora Bora was the place where 1187 01:24:54.720 --> 01:24:57.680 al Qaeda had regrouped and where ben Laden might be. 1188 01:24:58.840 --> 01:25:03.399 So the Agency was spinning up to go to Tora Bora. 1189 01:25:03.439 --> 01:25:05.479 In military was trying to figure out what we're going 1190 01:25:05.560 --> 01:25:12.600 to do. There had been an ODA five seven to 1191 01:25:12.640 --> 01:25:18.119 two that the paperwork to chop them to the agency 1192 01:25:18.239 --> 01:25:22.560 had been done to detail them, but that mission never 1193 01:25:23.159 --> 01:25:26.119 came to fruition. You know, they were going to chop 1194 01:25:26.159 --> 01:25:29.920 the whole team uh to operational control of the Agency, 1195 01:25:30.359 --> 01:25:36.960 but that mission never happened. So they were there and 1196 01:25:37.079 --> 01:25:46.960 available back at headquarters. Excuse me. So the Agency, when 1197 01:25:47.439 --> 01:25:50.199 you know, they realized how how big Tora War was 1198 01:25:50.239 --> 01:25:52.680 going to be and that they weren't really prepared to 1199 01:25:52.800 --> 01:26:01.840 handle all that themselves, asked for that team. And Mazari 1200 01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:10.079 Sharif had just happened, Spanning just been killed. John Mulholland 1201 01:26:10.119 --> 01:26:14.239 was a bit reluctant to just give the agency another 1202 01:26:15.279 --> 01:26:22.920 and an o DA for operational control. And yeah, and 1203 01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:28.199 he had some other reluctant reasons that he was somewhat 1204 01:26:28.239 --> 01:26:32.159 reluctant about that team. But one of the guys on 1205 01:26:32.159 --> 01:26:37.159 on the who was detailed from what happened to be 1206 01:26:37.279 --> 01:26:41.640 Orange to the agency, said, well, you trust this Gary 1207 01:26:41.680 --> 01:26:46.000 guy a whole lot. What if we took Gary uh 1208 01:26:46.960 --> 01:26:51.600 with the agency to serve as an advisor, would you 1209 01:26:51.680 --> 01:26:58.159 let us have that team then? So whatever, he said yes, 1210 01:26:59.039 --> 01:27:03.439 and so next thing, you know, without the legal paperwork 1211 01:27:03.560 --> 01:27:08.239 to be detailed. With a handshake, they said, okay, you're 1212 01:27:08.359 --> 01:27:13.359 now on Team Juliette with the agency and along with 1213 01:27:13.760 --> 01:27:19.279 this ODA seventy two, and off we went to Jalalabad 1214 01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:21.960 to get ready to go up to Tora Bora. 1215 01:27:23.760 --> 01:27:26.680 I mean, it's wild, and I this is cool because 1216 01:27:26.680 --> 01:27:28.640 I've never heard this side of the story and so 1217 01:27:29.479 --> 01:27:31.359 so many of the other folks that we've interviewed over 1218 01:27:31.399 --> 01:27:35.439 the last few years. So what was the situation when 1219 01:27:35.479 --> 01:27:39.359 you hit Jabad and getting ready for Tora Bora. I 1220 01:27:39.439 --> 01:27:41.159 mean you linked up with the with the unit guys. 1221 01:27:44.439 --> 01:27:49.560 It was there were a couple of people, actually, one 1222 01:27:49.560 --> 01:27:52.920 of the former guys on you in Delta that was 1223 01:27:53.039 --> 01:27:57.079 detailed to that team and the unit guys weren't there, 1224 01:27:57.319 --> 01:27:59.960 so I got to go in ahead of my old school. 1225 01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:04.960 It was just the agency guys in US and we 1226 01:28:05.039 --> 01:28:07.800 went to j Bad and it was really uncertain the 1227 01:28:10.399 --> 01:28:12.800 the warlords. There is one thing. We first went in 1228 01:28:12.920 --> 01:28:16.760 the pansh here and people that were aligned with Masoud 1229 01:28:16.880 --> 01:28:20.640 and hated the Taliban and hated al Qaeda for killing Masud. 1230 01:28:23.159 --> 01:28:25.680 You know, they were eager to get in the battle. 1231 01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:29.600 I mean, look at what dosed them did. But as 1232 01:28:29.640 --> 01:28:35.359 we started moving further south, that was changing. So we 1233 01:28:35.720 --> 01:28:38.840 hooked up in Jalalabad. We were hooked up with a 1234 01:28:38.880 --> 01:28:45.159 guy named hazret Ali and they were he just drugged 1235 01:28:45.239 --> 01:28:49.319 his dragged his feet. He was reluctant to get involved. 1236 01:28:49.520 --> 01:28:52.600 And let's be honest, it was the the bags of 1237 01:28:52.720 --> 01:28:56.439 cash that we were ferrying in that did it, you know. 1238 01:28:56.520 --> 01:28:58.800 But but but some of that, I have to do 1239 01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:03.520 some cool stuff like trained for the airfield and Jbad 1240 01:29:03.680 --> 01:29:07.439 was bombed. WED bombed it out. So to get the 1241 01:29:07.720 --> 01:29:12.760 first supplies in of uniforms, arms and equipment to outfit 1242 01:29:12.880 --> 01:29:18.800 the force, you know, I called in uh uh the 1243 01:29:19.000 --> 01:29:21.479 C one thirties and they came in low and lapsed 1244 01:29:22.359 --> 01:29:26.720 our parachuted all the equipment in and I remember being 1245 01:29:26.800 --> 01:29:30.199 there and the Afghans couldn't believe that suddenly in the dark, 1246 01:29:30.479 --> 01:29:33.520 out of nowhere, these planes come real low and the 1247 01:29:35.920 --> 01:29:40.560 parachutes are coming out. And I actually found myself dancing 1248 01:29:40.640 --> 01:29:44.319 in a circle with with some Afghan guys holding rifles 1249 01:29:44.359 --> 01:29:47.439 in one hand and their hands on the other. And 1250 01:29:48.560 --> 01:29:52.720 you know, it was exciting times, but it was real uncertain. 1251 01:29:52.960 --> 01:29:57.720 You didn't know who was who. Warlords were against warlords. 1252 01:29:58.760 --> 01:30:01.279 We were in a vehicle coming back from that airfield 1253 01:30:01.960 --> 01:30:04.479 and my vehicle made it through a checkpoint and they 1254 01:30:05.920 --> 01:30:10.600 we didn't we couldn't speak language, we didn't. I got through, 1255 01:30:10.720 --> 01:30:14.600 but then the second vehicle behind me they stopped. Well, 1256 01:30:14.960 --> 01:30:17.000 you don't know who's good and who's bad. So they're 1257 01:30:17.079 --> 01:30:21.479 stopped and it's it's not going well. I remember getting 1258 01:30:21.640 --> 01:30:27.000 out of the vehicle and then take an aim on 1259 01:30:27.199 --> 01:30:31.560 the You know, it's just some dude that's at the 1260 01:30:31.680 --> 01:30:34.039 check with a couple of dudes at the checkpoint, and 1261 01:30:34.680 --> 01:30:36.600 maybe they're trying to follow orders, but maybe they're going 1262 01:30:36.680 --> 01:30:40.920 to ambush us. You don't know who's who. And I 1263 01:30:41.039 --> 01:30:44.520 remember this argument going on, and they had an interpreter 1264 01:30:45.079 --> 01:30:48.800 and me trying to decide, I may not be able 1265 01:30:48.840 --> 01:30:51.479 to shoot him fast enough if he opens up. Should 1266 01:30:51.520 --> 01:30:56.119 I shoot him now preemptively? But then what if that? 1267 01:30:57.000 --> 01:31:00.880 You know, I caused that. So it was you know, 1268 01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:04.279 it was tense. But then he led him through and 1269 01:31:04.600 --> 01:31:09.560 we went on. It took us, the agency a long 1270 01:31:09.800 --> 01:31:13.600 time to get him ready to move his people up 1271 01:31:13.960 --> 01:31:19.479 to Tora Bora, you know, and delays were horrible. It 1272 01:31:19.720 --> 01:31:24.920 was Ramadan when we went up to Torobora. There were 1273 01:31:25.000 --> 01:31:29.359 so many things wrong. You had to kick and yell 1274 01:31:29.479 --> 01:31:34.039 and plead to get them to move up. But is Ramadan. 1275 01:31:34.520 --> 01:31:37.119 They hadn't had anything to eat or drink all day, 1276 01:31:38.119 --> 01:31:42.399 so when it starts getting towards night, they know that 1277 01:31:42.640 --> 01:31:47.920 food and water are back in the rear. So anything 1278 01:31:48.000 --> 01:31:51.119 that they made up during the day they give up 1279 01:31:51.119 --> 01:31:57.800 at night and go back. There's a lot of problems. 1280 01:31:57.960 --> 01:32:02.439 I was on a opie there. We divided. We had 1281 01:32:02.479 --> 01:32:06.560 a headquarters element that was in there, and Delta came 1282 01:32:06.600 --> 01:32:11.159 in later and joined up with them a squadron, and 1283 01:32:13.239 --> 01:32:15.880 the rest of us split in two ops. We were 1284 01:32:16.199 --> 01:32:18.880 five or six of us on a op I think 1285 01:32:18.960 --> 01:32:23.079 the so Cammon history calls that Cobra twenty five Bravo 1286 01:32:23.960 --> 01:32:28.439 was the op we were on, so hey, you know, 1287 01:32:28.640 --> 01:32:33.760 we're just we're calling in bombs were designating on the 1288 01:32:34.680 --> 01:32:37.399 base of the mountain where ben Laden was supposed to be. 1289 01:32:38.680 --> 01:32:41.279 It was really interesting calling fire because we were up 1290 01:32:41.560 --> 01:32:45.239 so high on mountains, like up on the top that 1291 01:32:45.399 --> 01:32:47.439 when you would call for fire down in the valley 1292 01:32:49.520 --> 01:32:52.520 one thousand meters below you, you'd see those missile of 1293 01:32:52.560 --> 01:32:56.319 the bombs come beside you. You could see them coming 1294 01:32:56.439 --> 01:32:59.359 in the air to go down in the valley because 1295 01:32:59.439 --> 01:33:02.720 we were up high on their trajectory because they were 1296 01:33:02.800 --> 01:33:09.119 dropping at twenty five twenty six, one thousand feet and 1297 01:33:09.279 --> 01:33:12.079 we had by that time, you know, the friendly fire 1298 01:33:12.199 --> 01:33:21.560 incident also at Missaari sharif it was, I had a 1299 01:33:21.640 --> 01:33:23.720 close call as I think it must have been like 1300 01:33:23.840 --> 01:33:29.800 two am. I was calling in. There was a aircraft 1301 01:33:30.439 --> 01:33:35.399 that had a like twenty jade ams on it, so 1302 01:33:35.520 --> 01:33:38.119 I brought him in first to drop one or two 1303 01:33:38.880 --> 01:33:42.119 to see if we're on target, and that went fine. 1304 01:33:42.800 --> 01:33:45.479 So you know, he comes out, they rolled out. You 1305 01:33:45.600 --> 01:33:49.640 have about a fifteen minute turnaround before they can come 1306 01:33:49.760 --> 01:33:55.079 back on B two. Yeah, B two, and he as 1307 01:33:55.159 --> 01:34:00.760 he's rolling back in. I say that was good, dropped, 1308 01:34:01.079 --> 01:34:07.039 dropped the remaining ordance, same spot, and he calls back 1309 01:34:07.119 --> 01:34:12.359 the coordinates right, and but he gives me, you know, 1310 01:34:12.359 --> 01:34:15.359 because you call for fire. I had, I gave the 1311 01:34:15.439 --> 01:34:20.439 location of the other op, but he calls out that 1312 01:34:20.680 --> 01:34:26.159 location as the target location. And uh, man, you know, 1313 01:34:26.239 --> 01:34:30.119 I remember my throat jumped in my stomach, jumped up 1314 01:34:30.159 --> 01:34:31.800 in my throat because I did I hear that? Right? 1315 01:34:31.840 --> 01:34:32.359 Did I hear that? 1316 01:34:32.520 --> 01:34:36.720 Right? But and I was just screaming aboard, aboard, aboard, 1317 01:34:36.760 --> 01:34:39.119 and I pictured because it was like a forty five 1318 01:34:39.279 --> 01:34:43.279 second delay, you know, they would drop, and I was 1319 01:34:43.359 --> 01:34:49.760 afraid he was going to say too late. But then 1320 01:34:49.840 --> 01:34:52.800 he corrected and then he gave me the correct coordinates 1321 01:34:53.680 --> 01:34:54.880 and dropped the ordinance. 1322 01:34:55.000 --> 01:34:57.560 But it was yeah, yeah, oh my god. 1323 01:34:57.520 --> 01:35:01.600 You know, a big learning, a big learning, uh incident. 1324 01:35:02.680 --> 01:35:06.359 But yeah, and we know now you know, ben Laden 1325 01:35:06.600 --> 01:35:13.680 got away. The one of the warlords, whether it was 1326 01:35:13.720 --> 01:35:16.760 hasra Arli or the one that was affiliated with the 1327 01:35:17.319 --> 01:35:22.000 Brits that were there on site to covering the back 1328 01:35:22.159 --> 01:35:29.000 end towards Pakistan, somebody facilitated him going. And uh there's 1329 01:35:29.039 --> 01:35:32.119 a book called The Hunt for ben Laden written by 1330 01:35:32.159 --> 01:35:38.600 adulta guy. It was a major on the ground there. Yeah, 1331 01:35:38.720 --> 01:35:44.039 or kill ben Laden and you know he he talks 1332 01:35:44.079 --> 01:35:47.119 about the night that the Delta guys went forward and 1333 01:35:47.159 --> 01:35:51.760 all the locals bailed on them and they were left 1334 01:35:51.880 --> 01:35:55.359 the two guys alone. One of them had Sean was 1335 01:35:55.680 --> 01:35:57.880 had been on my team and a squadron, so it 1336 01:35:58.000 --> 01:36:02.239 was actually a squadron that came in my old squadron 1337 01:36:02.800 --> 01:36:06.960 with a few people still left on it. And that 1338 01:36:07.199 --> 01:36:12.560 same night, and this is where I think that the 1339 01:36:12.840 --> 01:36:18.439 warlords had something worked out with Bin Laden. The Hazrat Ali, 1340 01:36:18.680 --> 01:36:23.680 the chief of the Afghans, called up to his guys 1341 01:36:23.960 --> 01:36:25.840 that were with us. We had there were five or 1342 01:36:25.880 --> 01:36:31.680 six Americans and we probably had ten locals with us. Now, 1343 01:36:31.720 --> 01:36:34.359 we wouldn't let them with us because you didn't train 1344 01:36:34.479 --> 01:36:37.119 these guys. You didn't know who they were good or bad. 1345 01:36:37.600 --> 01:36:40.399 So we used them as tripwires. We put them. We 1346 01:36:40.479 --> 01:36:42.359 were up on this knife ridge and we put them 1347 01:36:42.399 --> 01:36:45.159 between us and al Kaya. We figured, hey, if al 1348 01:36:45.239 --> 01:36:47.560 Kaeda rolls through us, they'll hit them first and it'd 1349 01:36:47.600 --> 01:36:49.880 be like a trip wire to give us a little 1350 01:36:49.880 --> 01:36:55.239 bit of time. But he told them that they had 1351 01:36:55.279 --> 01:36:57.439 to move us off there, and it was for our 1352 01:36:57.640 --> 01:37:02.439 own safety. So you know, our interpret tells us you 1353 01:37:02.520 --> 01:37:05.920 have to go now, you can't stay here. We're not going. 1354 01:37:06.520 --> 01:37:09.600 He goes no, but the general said you have to leave, 1355 01:37:10.439 --> 01:37:13.920 and we're all leaving, and we said no, we're not going. 1356 01:37:15.000 --> 01:37:18.439 So in the end all the Afghans left and left 1357 01:37:18.560 --> 01:37:21.880 us up on that ridge. I guess that was a 1358 01:37:21.960 --> 01:37:25.800 point with me because maybe the guys down in the 1359 01:37:25.840 --> 01:37:29.479 headquarter element didn't get the whole story. But in his 1360 01:37:29.680 --> 01:37:33.039 book he says that that we moved, you know, that 1361 01:37:33.159 --> 01:37:37.319 we evacuated. We did not, you know, we stayed up 1362 01:37:37.359 --> 01:37:41.800 there and we had movement that night down in the 1363 01:37:41.840 --> 01:37:44.760 bottom of a thousand meters below us, where there were 1364 01:37:44.840 --> 01:37:48.279 some lights and movement, and one of the guys wanted to, 1365 01:37:48.760 --> 01:37:51.520 you know, light them up, but I was like, hey, 1366 01:37:52.399 --> 01:37:57.479 at night with your M four, we're not going to 1367 01:37:57.840 --> 01:37:59.880 be effective fire and you're just going to give a 1368 01:38:00.199 --> 01:38:03.600 our position, so you know we're not. But we had 1369 01:38:03.680 --> 01:38:07.760 that movement, so I tried to call some air in, 1370 01:38:08.039 --> 01:38:09.600 but there was happened that there was one of the 1371 01:38:09.680 --> 01:38:14.119 few times in Tora Bora there was no aircraft overhead 1372 01:38:14.159 --> 01:38:17.800 that had any ordinance on it, and I was like, man, 1373 01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:19.840 you know they're moving, and we didn't know if they 1374 01:38:19.880 --> 01:38:24.319 were trying to move maneuver on us, so what can 1375 01:38:24.399 --> 01:38:26.520 we do. The only thing I found was there was 1376 01:38:27.279 --> 01:38:33.159 a Back in those days, the drones were not are 1377 01:38:33.520 --> 01:38:37.960 not yet armed. We weren't that far into the development 1378 01:38:38.039 --> 01:38:42.600 of the war ontariot, but they sounded kind of like 1379 01:38:43.119 --> 01:38:46.920 AC one thirty, when if you brought it down low 1380 01:38:47.000 --> 01:38:49.199 enough you could hear it. So I was able to 1381 01:38:49.319 --> 01:38:53.960 get there that that drone to come in and drop 1382 01:38:54.079 --> 01:38:56.800 low enough that we could hear it. And then those 1383 01:38:56.960 --> 01:38:58.680 lights that we saw down in the bottom of the 1384 01:38:58.760 --> 01:39:03.159 valley they disappeared, so so you know, it did his job. 1385 01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:11.720 So we left. We left tor Bora, got relieved by 1386 01:39:12.640 --> 01:39:16.560 some Delta guys, a couple of them guys on you. 1387 01:39:16.720 --> 01:39:20.279 We went, we hiked down the mountain. We're using donkeys 1388 01:39:20.760 --> 01:39:24.359 to carry our backpacks when all our gear just kept 1389 01:39:24.439 --> 01:39:31.399 our lbe and and weapons with us, and then met 1390 01:39:31.520 --> 01:39:33.560 up with the Delta guys and then they came up 1391 01:39:34.279 --> 01:39:36.800 to take over the op and they're the ones that 1392 01:39:36.960 --> 01:39:40.600 wound up pushing further into the mountains to try to 1393 01:39:40.680 --> 01:39:43.600 get on the trail of Ben ladden, you know, after 1394 01:39:43.800 --> 01:39:47.600 we left. But I got you know, I got to say, hey, 1395 01:39:48.039 --> 01:39:50.520 you know, it's about time you Delta guys. Guy here, 1396 01:39:50.600 --> 01:39:52.359 we've already got posting this stuff done. 1397 01:39:54.479 --> 01:39:55.319 I'm sure they love that. 1398 01:39:57.039 --> 01:39:59.159 Yeah, it was funny. Well, and you know, and we've 1399 01:39:59.199 --> 01:40:02.039 been tall this stuff about Afghan culture and what you 1400 01:40:02.159 --> 01:40:03.920 can say and what you can't say. And it was 1401 01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:06.880 snowing when we were up in tour war. Before we 1402 01:40:07.000 --> 01:40:09.479 came down, it started snowing on it. As a matter 1403 01:40:09.479 --> 01:40:12.079 of fact, Delta was supposed to come in a day 1404 01:40:12.159 --> 01:40:16.479 before and and they radio said there and I said, hey, 1405 01:40:16.760 --> 01:40:21.479 do you have winter gear? And no, I said, it's 1406 01:40:21.520 --> 01:40:24.039 snowing up here, and it's just it's going to get 1407 01:40:24.119 --> 01:40:28.680 really bad. So they actually delayed and somehow within twenty 1408 01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:32.680 four hours came up with all kinds of winter gear 1409 01:40:33.199 --> 01:40:39.760 that whole Delta supply line, you know. And but when 1410 01:40:39.800 --> 01:40:42.159 we were doing the turnover with them, there were all 1411 01:40:42.159 --> 01:40:46.000 these villagers there, and so we're talking to the villagers. 1412 01:40:46.039 --> 01:40:50.279 I got the interpreter and they said, one thing you 1413 01:40:50.359 --> 01:40:54.600 never can talk about is their women and or the religion. 1414 01:40:55.359 --> 01:40:58.319 But I couldn't help myself. I said, hey, I know 1415 01:40:58.399 --> 01:41:01.720 why you guys have four white you can have four wives. 1416 01:41:02.319 --> 01:41:06.000 And you know he's like, yeah, well, what's your reason? 1417 01:41:06.279 --> 01:41:08.439 I said, because it's so damned cold up there that 1418 01:41:08.600 --> 01:41:11.359 you need a warm place to stay as you move around. 1419 01:41:11.720 --> 01:41:14.199 So you got you can spread four out to different 1420 01:41:14.239 --> 01:41:17.159 places so you can get warm at night. And then 1421 01:41:17.239 --> 01:41:20.039 and the Delta sarn major that was there like no, no, no, no, 1422 01:41:20.159 --> 01:41:24.760 don't don't say that, don't say that. But it went fine. 1423 01:41:25.159 --> 01:41:26.880 You know, they appreciated the joke. 1424 01:41:28.119 --> 01:41:33.560 Yeah, so after Tora Bora you did like a subsequent 1425 01:41:33.640 --> 01:41:35.359 number of deployments back to Afghanistan. 1426 01:41:36.520 --> 01:41:41.319 Yeah, well I didn't go, So I didn't even leave Afghanistan. No. Yeah. 1427 01:41:41.359 --> 01:41:44.840 We were in a safe house in Jalalabad, our team 1428 01:41:45.119 --> 01:41:48.399 kind of recovering from uh our time up here in 1429 01:41:48.479 --> 01:41:54.000 Tora Bora, and the radio message came in said, hey, 1430 01:41:54.159 --> 01:41:58.319 uh Gary Harrington, get back to Carshi Kanabad and see 1431 01:41:58.359 --> 01:42:02.760 the commander. Well, okay, how am I going to get back? 1432 01:42:03.399 --> 01:42:06.600 So I talked to the agency and they let me 1433 01:42:07.520 --> 01:42:09.680 hitch a ride on one of their aircraft. Of course 1434 01:42:09.720 --> 01:42:13.560 I had no passport or anything, and the aircraft landed 1435 01:42:13.600 --> 01:42:15.399 in a tashed kent. I had to hide on the 1436 01:42:15.439 --> 01:42:22.079 aircraft untill they went through it and then wound up 1437 01:42:22.119 --> 01:42:26.279 getting on a I think the next day or maybe 1438 01:42:26.319 --> 01:42:29.239 that same night, on the agency helicopter going back to 1439 01:42:29.359 --> 01:42:33.000 Carci Kanabat. It was you know, and okay, let me honest. 1440 01:42:33.039 --> 01:42:35.279 It was cool because it was kind of like a 1441 01:42:35.399 --> 01:42:38.560 movie because I go by now when I left, there 1442 01:42:38.680 --> 01:42:43.279 was nothing. Now there's this plywood headquarters built. I go 1443 01:42:43.439 --> 01:42:46.840 in there and I walk in, I'm all nasty and dirty, 1444 01:42:46.960 --> 01:42:52.520 and I, hey, I'm here to see the commander. And 1445 01:42:52.600 --> 01:42:56.840 they go back there in office and I walked back 1446 01:42:56.920 --> 01:43:01.119 in there and you know, eat me. We have a 1447 01:43:01.239 --> 01:43:05.600 talk there was you know, he asked me a really 1448 01:43:05.680 --> 01:43:09.239 tough question about a personnel issue that had occurred, and 1449 01:43:09.279 --> 01:43:12.840 he said, you know, I got to make some decisions. 1450 01:43:13.119 --> 01:43:16.720 I'm gonna trust you, so give me. Give me the 1451 01:43:16.800 --> 01:43:21.600 rundown on what happened. You know. So now I'm back 1452 01:43:21.640 --> 01:43:23.840 into say, uh, it's sort of like what happened to 1453 01:43:23.880 --> 01:43:27.039 me in Delta. And I'm the guy that's that is 1454 01:43:27.119 --> 01:43:29.680 making the call. But so I talked to him and 1455 01:43:29.720 --> 01:43:34.640 then we finished and he goes, hey, now I'm putting 1456 01:43:34.720 --> 01:43:38.720 you on another agency team called Kilo and they're going 1457 01:43:38.760 --> 01:43:41.880 to go to a place called Coast, So get yourself 1458 01:43:42.680 --> 01:43:48.439 to Kabul, Afghanistan, go to the Areana Hotel and hook 1459 01:43:48.520 --> 01:43:53.880 up with them. That was my instructions. So I wound. 1460 01:43:53.960 --> 01:43:56.319 I said, can I shower first? I'd I'd like to 1461 01:43:56.680 --> 01:44:00.319 take a shower, get cleaned up, repack my rug. So 1462 01:44:00.399 --> 01:44:01.840 I did that, and then I went down to the 1463 01:44:01.920 --> 01:44:09.159 flight line. Found a H forty seven that was doing 1464 01:44:09.199 --> 01:44:12.079 a check out right. It had some repairs, and the 1465 01:44:12.159 --> 01:44:14.880 pilots agreed to let me on it, and they flew 1466 01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:21.039 me into Kabul or into Bogram, and then I guess 1467 01:44:21.079 --> 01:44:24.960 I got a vehicle and showed up at this you know, 1468 01:44:25.199 --> 01:44:31.960 run down old hotel and joined Kilo, at which Nate 1469 01:44:32.079 --> 01:44:37.680 Chapman was on. So I had met Mike Span and 1470 01:44:37.840 --> 01:44:41.119 helped Alpha get. In a matter of fact, the picture 1471 01:44:41.439 --> 01:44:46.720 in the CIA Museum of Team Alpha, I took that picture. 1472 01:44:49.199 --> 01:44:52.640 But now I'm on the team with Chapman and the 1473 01:44:52.760 --> 01:44:57.119 other guys, and you know, they'd been together a little while. 1474 01:44:57.279 --> 01:45:03.319 I joined late we did. I did Christmas in Jalalabad, 1475 01:45:03.680 --> 01:45:08.399 I did New Year's there in Kabul, and then I 1476 01:45:08.479 --> 01:45:12.920 guess it was like about two January. The infill to coast. 1477 01:45:15.680 --> 01:45:17.840 I'm getting ready. I think it was the night before 1478 01:45:18.439 --> 01:45:24.079 the infill. Some major from group came over to the 1479 01:45:24.199 --> 01:45:29.880 hotel and said, hey, Colonel Mahallan said, y're not to 1480 01:45:30.000 --> 01:45:34.039 go in on the first helicopter in the coast. I 1481 01:45:34.159 --> 01:45:37.239 was like, what do you mean, not going the first helicopter. 1482 01:45:37.560 --> 01:45:41.119 He goes, no, he wants you to hold and go 1483 01:45:41.279 --> 01:45:45.319 on the second helicopter. And you know, I probably had 1484 01:45:45.359 --> 01:45:49.640 a few words to say about that because I was pissed. 1485 01:45:50.279 --> 01:45:55.159 But you know, he's a colonel, so he'd already had 1486 01:45:55.199 --> 01:46:00.479 to write letters for the guys in Kandahar and enough 1487 01:46:00.640 --> 01:46:05.359 other letters for people that weren't coming home that not. 1488 01:46:07.000 --> 01:46:11.439 While I wasn't really happy with that decision, you know, 1489 01:46:12.159 --> 01:46:16.560 it's his calls, he's the boss. So I delayed. Well, 1490 01:46:19.079 --> 01:46:22.680 then the next morning, I'm getting ready to get on 1491 01:46:22.760 --> 01:46:25.720 the helicopter to go in, and that's when the guys 1492 01:46:25.960 --> 01:46:35.319 on Keilo got hit and Chapman got killed. So you know, 1493 01:46:35.439 --> 01:46:38.479 the metal fact came out that had embetic on it, 1494 01:46:38.600 --> 01:46:44.279 and it was a guy, a Third Group guy, and 1495 01:46:46.079 --> 01:46:49.159 you know I went back, so dealt with that, and 1496 01:46:49.239 --> 01:46:54.039 then I went back in that evening. Uh, to coast 1497 01:46:54.079 --> 01:46:57.840 and we were the team was still dealing with what 1498 01:46:58.000 --> 01:47:03.640 had happened and what we're going to do after. And 1499 01:47:03.760 --> 01:47:06.640 that's where you know, the agency is great at what 1500 01:47:06.880 --> 01:47:11.319 is what it does, and the Army Agency, the fifth 1501 01:47:11.359 --> 01:47:15.000 Group agency link up was effective. But there are some 1502 01:47:16.319 --> 01:47:18.359 things and I think this was one of those, and 1503 01:47:18.800 --> 01:47:22.880 some of the stuff I saw Onatora Bora where you know, 1504 01:47:23.159 --> 01:47:27.359 I felt that a seasoned special Ops person could have 1505 01:47:27.439 --> 01:47:36.520 would have made different calls. After Chapman got killed, we 1506 01:47:36.720 --> 01:47:41.880 wound up changing. We went in backing one warlord, but 1507 01:47:42.039 --> 01:47:46.119 after he got killed, they decided, well that war lord 1508 01:47:46.159 --> 01:47:49.960 didn't powerful enough in coast. The other guy is who 1509 01:47:50.560 --> 01:47:55.199 we actually everybody is pretty sure ordered the ambush that 1510 01:47:55.640 --> 01:47:58.520 resulted in Chapman's death. But then the agency, so we're 1511 01:47:58.520 --> 01:48:02.000 going to back this guy, and for a while we're 1512 01:48:02.000 --> 01:48:05.159 gonna they want to back both and he from that 1513 01:48:05.239 --> 01:48:09.359 guy standpoint, it means millions of dollars, right, and so 1514 01:48:09.720 --> 01:48:17.119 you know he's collecting that. But yeah, we so we 1515 01:48:17.199 --> 01:48:19.760 did the end fill the coast. But I learned the lesson. 1516 01:48:19.800 --> 01:48:23.760 I tried to apply the lessons I learned from Tora Bora. 1517 01:48:24.880 --> 01:48:29.720 That my job when Mohan told me that you get 1518 01:48:29.800 --> 01:48:32.640 there and develop the situation and make sure that this 1519 01:48:32.960 --> 01:48:39.319 g force is ready to accept s F, train you know, 1520 01:48:39.640 --> 01:48:43.800 s F people to work with it and direct them. Well, 1521 01:48:43.920 --> 01:48:46.680 now I didn't want a gag on. I learned that. Okay, 1522 01:48:46.920 --> 01:48:48.319 one of the first things I want to do is 1523 01:48:48.359 --> 01:48:52.439 build mobile kitchens. Outfit little pickup trucks with you know, 1524 01:48:52.560 --> 01:48:55.399 gas stoves so we can cook forward so the troops 1525 01:48:55.800 --> 01:48:59.800 don't have to come back to get fed. I want 1526 01:49:00.119 --> 01:49:04.640 to develop some sort of staff structure so that the 1527 01:49:04.840 --> 01:49:08.359 SF guys have something to fall in on, because you know, 1528 01:49:08.479 --> 01:49:12.199 these guys were you know, had flowers sticking out of 1529 01:49:12.239 --> 01:49:14.600 their guns. A lot of them were in opera bow. 1530 01:49:15.319 --> 01:49:21.199 It was a joke and h and it's really funny 1531 01:49:21.199 --> 01:49:25.119 because the guy running that agency team it was a 1532 01:49:25.239 --> 01:49:33.039 former SF guy officer, and you know, they they kept 1533 01:49:33.159 --> 01:49:36.279 doing stuff, but they it's sort of delaying on letting 1534 01:49:36.279 --> 01:49:39.560 me get to the job of getting things structured the 1535 01:49:39.640 --> 01:49:43.239 way I wanted to. And I'm the the army guy there. 1536 01:49:43.720 --> 01:49:48.640 And they kept saying till mohalland to send us a 1537 01:49:49.319 --> 01:49:54.159 mess F and I was like, no, nope, nope, and uh, 1538 01:49:55.119 --> 01:49:57.920 I said not not until we do this. I remember, uh, 1539 01:49:58.279 --> 01:50:01.279 one big team meeting that he said, wait a minute, 1540 01:50:01.399 --> 01:50:05.399 So you're telling me you're and E seven in the 1541 01:50:05.600 --> 01:50:09.520 army telling all of us that it's up to you 1542 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:13.520 if we get s F people or not. And yeah, 1543 01:50:13.520 --> 01:50:16.359 I think I crossed my arms say yes about it. 1544 01:50:18.920 --> 01:50:21.479 Yeah, because you want everything set up to properly receive 1545 01:50:21.560 --> 01:50:23.600 the team so they can be effective when they get there. 1546 01:50:23.760 --> 01:50:26.159 We got you got to be effective. You know, he 1547 01:50:26.279 --> 01:50:28.760 can't just jump in on a crowd of people and 1548 01:50:29.239 --> 01:50:31.439 hope and pray that something's going to happen, because it's not. 1549 01:50:32.359 --> 01:50:35.800 And and plus I'd given the you know, the commander 1550 01:50:35.800 --> 01:50:39.199 of my word that I would make sure that it 1551 01:50:39.439 --> 01:50:43.560 was effective and ready, so I wouldn't do that. But 1552 01:50:46.600 --> 01:50:51.199 and so that was going on, and we agreed that 1553 01:50:51.319 --> 01:50:54.079 we would send a team in. But by that point 1554 01:50:54.199 --> 01:50:57.640 the two wards I mentioned it was Zia cheim And 1555 01:51:00.720 --> 01:51:05.000 and Pasha Khan that we're fighting each other, the two 1556 01:51:05.079 --> 01:51:07.359 warlords that we were back in, and it turned into 1557 01:51:07.399 --> 01:51:10.600 a blood feud. It was it was going to derail 1558 01:51:10.720 --> 01:51:13.399 everything the agency and army was trying to do up there. 1559 01:51:14.680 --> 01:51:19.359 So I went to that one guy, so to Zia Khan, 1560 01:51:19.520 --> 01:51:25.119 and I said, yeah, you come from Orgon area. What 1561 01:51:25.640 --> 01:51:29.399 if you go back to Orgon and I will take 1562 01:51:31.239 --> 01:51:34.880 a group of people with you and we'll bring special 1563 01:51:35.000 --> 01:51:38.000 forces into you and support you, but back in your 1564 01:51:38.079 --> 01:51:44.159 home area where you're from. So he agreed, and then 1565 01:51:44.479 --> 01:51:47.680 the agency bought in on that plan. So it was 1566 01:51:47.760 --> 01:51:53.119 decided to split off and open up a new a 1567 01:51:53.239 --> 01:51:57.720 new base in Orgon, and I got to lead plan 1568 01:51:58.039 --> 01:52:01.640 and lead the infill for that. And it's just a 1569 01:52:01.840 --> 01:52:05.319 way different than how I'd ever been trained to run 1570 01:52:05.359 --> 01:52:12.399 an infill in recon Or, SF, and I had al 1571 01:52:12.479 --> 01:52:15.439 Qaeda was spread throughout the region. You didn't know if 1572 01:52:15.520 --> 01:52:18.439 you were coming into what you were going to come into, 1573 01:52:19.600 --> 01:52:25.840 and you know, the warlord had a nephew that didn't 1574 01:52:25.840 --> 01:52:30.600 speak one word of English. And how am I going 1575 01:52:30.680 --> 01:52:34.479 to make an infill? Buy a helicopter in a place 1576 01:52:35.560 --> 01:52:39.439 and ensure the most safety we can? So you're inventing it. 1577 01:52:41.880 --> 01:52:44.960 I trained the guy how to use an IR strobe 1578 01:52:45.760 --> 01:52:49.640 and what we needed for an LZ, picked out the 1579 01:52:49.800 --> 01:52:57.239 most probable place from maps and overhead imagery, and now 1580 01:52:57.319 --> 01:52:59.840 I did some dry rehearsals that you know, to know 1581 01:53:00.079 --> 01:53:03.199 he'd know how to set up the ir strobe and 1582 01:53:04.960 --> 01:53:08.720 sent him back, and they had Theriahs and we had 1583 01:53:08.760 --> 01:53:14.600 an interpreter that spoke pashtune that we were communicating. And 1584 01:53:14.720 --> 01:53:16.800 so we waited a few days. As it got time 1585 01:53:16.920 --> 01:53:21.359 for the infill. What I told him to do was 1586 01:53:21.439 --> 01:53:25.600 to go out and mark that l Z at night 1587 01:53:25.760 --> 01:53:29.039 and to keep marking it every night. And we waited, 1588 01:53:29.119 --> 01:53:31.760 so I didn't go in. We didn't infill the first 1589 01:53:31.800 --> 01:53:35.840 day or second day maybe I remember if his third 1590 01:53:35.960 --> 01:53:40.279 or fourth day. And then to make the infill, I 1591 01:53:40.399 --> 01:53:43.039 invited some of his relatives to get on the helicopter 1592 01:53:43.199 --> 01:53:46.880 with me, so I figured I could throw a few 1593 01:53:46.920 --> 01:53:49.880 civilians on there, kind of as an insurance policy. I 1594 01:53:49.960 --> 01:53:52.840 want to make sure you know that I have you know, 1595 01:53:52.960 --> 01:53:57.439 some of your relatives on this helicopter with me, and 1596 01:53:57.600 --> 01:54:00.680 so you know, we set the pattern of coming in. 1597 01:54:01.720 --> 01:54:04.359 And then the one night we did show up and 1598 01:54:04.600 --> 01:54:04.920 make that. 1599 01:54:05.159 --> 01:54:09.680 In film, and that was the start of the base, 1600 01:54:09.800 --> 01:54:15.319 the fob at Ragoon. Yeah, pretty much that existed through 1601 01:54:15.439 --> 01:54:19.560 like pretty much the whole war. Yeah, it was it 1602 01:54:19.720 --> 01:54:20.680 was interesting, you know, I. 1603 01:54:23.840 --> 01:54:25.800 It was wild. It was kind of wild West. You know, 1604 01:54:25.960 --> 01:54:28.880 you want to be that guy there's no rules, there's 1605 01:54:28.960 --> 01:54:32.319 no other military around you. You kind of run around. 1606 01:54:33.680 --> 01:54:36.880 We were going out and hitting, you know, I'd say hitting, 1607 01:54:37.000 --> 01:54:41.279 not hitting. I think I was extremely successful without ever 1608 01:54:41.439 --> 01:54:45.840 having to hit a weapons cachet. Everywhere in Afghanistan had 1609 01:54:45.920 --> 01:54:50.479 weapons cachets from the Soviet of the war with the Soviets, 1610 01:54:51.079 --> 01:54:55.000 every little village had stuff you would never ever find it. 1611 01:54:56.159 --> 01:55:00.279 But you know, I developed this thing where we'd work 1612 01:55:00.359 --> 01:55:04.960 with a village elder and an interpreter and we'd go 1613 01:55:05.159 --> 01:55:08.600 there and we'd have a couple of vehicles with food 1614 01:55:08.720 --> 01:55:14.159 and blankets and mattresses on it, sitting off backaways, and 1615 01:55:14.439 --> 01:55:18.319 we just go up and ask nicely, hey, you got 1616 01:55:18.399 --> 01:55:21.840 some stuff here and some bad stuff somebody could get her. 1617 01:55:21.960 --> 01:55:26.960 We don't want any misinterpretations. We'd like it if you'd 1618 01:55:27.039 --> 01:55:30.720 let us dig this up or help us show us 1619 01:55:30.760 --> 01:55:34.239 where it is. And they would do that, and then 1620 01:55:34.279 --> 01:55:38.359 after we would recover the stuff and would roll these 1621 01:55:38.399 --> 01:55:42.479 trucks with all these goodies. Before you know, it eventually 1622 01:55:42.560 --> 01:55:44.720 got to the point you'd be finishing in one village 1623 01:55:45.000 --> 01:55:46.920 and here's people from another village. Hey, hey, come to 1624 01:55:47.000 --> 01:55:50.079 our village because we got the money and we started 1625 01:55:50.119 --> 01:55:53.760 collecting you know, it just kept getting more and more 1626 01:55:53.840 --> 01:55:59.399 and more. And I started paying guys with tractors to 1627 01:55:59.479 --> 01:56:03.239 haul our chillerry pieces back back to Ragoon, and I 1628 01:56:03.399 --> 01:56:08.600 was like making a collection of big artillery pieces. It 1629 01:56:08.760 --> 01:56:14.079 was uh yeah, it was exciting days they had. I 1630 01:56:14.199 --> 01:56:19.520 remember when I was in Yemen, the Yemeny's during the 1631 01:56:19.600 --> 01:56:23.119 d mining mission had two guys vaporized in a truck 1632 01:56:23.319 --> 01:56:27.760 carrying a whole bunch of mines, and whatever happened to 1633 01:56:28.279 --> 01:56:32.119 degnate datonated, the whole truck went and they were gone. 1634 01:56:33.359 --> 01:56:37.840 And the Afghans would always pick the two lowest guys 1635 01:56:38.239 --> 01:56:40.640 to drive the truck. And it was, you know, stuff 1636 01:56:41.479 --> 01:56:45.479 hidden from the Soviet time. It was rockets, it was rounds, 1637 01:56:45.560 --> 01:56:50.119 it was mortars, it was mines, everything under the sun, 1638 01:56:50.640 --> 01:56:58.039 in under every kind of condition. In Shlan and in 1639 01:56:58.119 --> 01:57:00.439 the Americans. At first I did it as it would 1640 01:57:00.479 --> 01:57:04.399 be two or three Americans go eventually, and then we 1641 01:57:04.479 --> 01:57:06.720 would ride in a truck and we make sure we 1642 01:57:06.800 --> 01:57:10.520 stayed a couple hundred meters from that truck. Then one 1643 01:57:10.600 --> 01:57:13.760 day I was, you know, in there because now music's allowed. 1644 01:57:13.800 --> 01:57:17.920 They had their little the little uh cassette player playing 1645 01:57:17.920 --> 01:57:20.359 the most horrible Afghan music I ever heard. But they 1646 01:57:20.399 --> 01:57:23.119 were all excited, and these two guys were in there, 1647 01:57:23.119 --> 01:57:25.800 and I felt I felt bad for him. So I 1648 01:57:26.439 --> 01:57:28.680 just went up and opened the door and said, hey, 1649 01:57:28.680 --> 01:57:32.319 I'm I'm climbed in the truck with them, and they 1650 01:57:32.359 --> 01:57:34.039 looked at me like, you're going to ride in here 1651 01:57:34.159 --> 01:57:39.359 with us. I was like in char Land, because if 1652 01:57:39.680 --> 01:57:44.399 you go, I'm going. And off we went. And you know, 1653 01:57:44.560 --> 01:57:51.000 after that, those guys started treating me different, the Afghans. 1654 01:57:52.359 --> 01:57:54.239 I would when we get to where we go, I 1655 01:57:54.239 --> 01:57:57.239 would help them unload the truck, you know, do the 1656 01:57:57.319 --> 01:58:01.840 manual labor, and uh, it got to where they took 1657 01:58:01.880 --> 01:58:05.479 it personal and they didn't want me touching anything. They started, 1658 01:58:05.720 --> 01:58:08.680 you know, taking care of me and treating me like 1659 01:58:08.840 --> 01:58:14.359 I was one of their commanders. My experience with the 1660 01:58:14.439 --> 01:58:18.640 guys in Tora Bora was they were so undisciplined and untrained. 1661 01:58:19.079 --> 01:58:24.760 I expected the same here. We went out to do, 1662 01:58:25.279 --> 01:58:28.760 uh what recover one cachet we thought was going to 1663 01:58:28.800 --> 01:58:32.119 be maybe a hostile. So you don't have time to 1664 01:58:32.279 --> 01:58:37.199 train all these guys, you know, so just just let 1665 01:58:37.319 --> 01:58:39.359 them follow me. So I remember I had them all 1666 01:58:39.399 --> 01:58:42.000 on the back of a steakebed truck and I was 1667 01:58:42.039 --> 01:58:44.840 in the front. My plan was we were gonna get 1668 01:58:44.920 --> 01:58:47.359 off and we were going to cover one ridge. Another 1669 01:58:47.479 --> 01:58:49.920 guy was going to take other guys on another vehicle 1670 01:58:50.079 --> 01:58:53.920 and cover the other ridge, and the Cachet was in 1671 01:58:54.000 --> 01:58:57.319 the valley and I thought, Okay, all you do is 1672 01:58:57.439 --> 01:58:59.479 follow me. I'm going to jump out of the front 1673 01:58:59.640 --> 01:59:01.720 and run under the back. You're all gonna come out 1674 01:59:01.760 --> 01:59:04.159 of the truck and file behind me, and I'm gonna 1675 01:59:04.680 --> 01:59:07.239 I'm the American. I'm going to lead the way up 1676 01:59:07.319 --> 01:59:10.880 the ridge and uh, I've got all my American gear 1677 01:59:10.960 --> 01:59:16.079 on and jump off the truck and come back. Well, 1678 01:59:16.079 --> 01:59:20.239 they're they're jumping off faster than I planned, and they're 1679 01:59:20.239 --> 01:59:23.640 all coming. There's this little guy with a big beard 1680 01:59:24.000 --> 01:59:31.399 and uh, wearing a Soviet officer's belt buckle, and you know, 1681 01:59:31.920 --> 01:59:34.239 we started up the ridge and he just started barking 1682 01:59:34.399 --> 01:59:37.800 orders and those guys were running up the ridge and 1683 01:59:39.680 --> 01:59:42.479 you know, I'm carrying twice the three times the way 1684 01:59:42.560 --> 01:59:47.279 they are, So I'm starting sucking and breathing hard and 1685 01:59:47.319 --> 01:59:48.800 trying to go up the ridge. And I thought I 1686 01:59:48.920 --> 01:59:52.199 was going to lead them. They took off and left 1687 01:59:52.279 --> 01:59:57.000 me and I remember getting getting to the top of 1688 01:59:57.079 --> 02:00:00.159 the ridge and I could barely. I was wheezing, and 1689 02:00:00.319 --> 02:00:07.279 I said, ridge secure and it wasn't. It wasn't because 1690 02:00:07.319 --> 02:00:11.119 of anything I did. They this, this group were hardened 1691 02:00:12.079 --> 02:00:16.159 fighters from the Soviet time, you know, and they knew 1692 02:00:16.199 --> 02:00:18.840 what they were doing. It was pretty cool. 1693 02:00:20.199 --> 02:00:24.439 So after this whole like initial push into Afghanistan, and 1694 02:00:24.520 --> 02:00:26.279 I mean you were involved in it for quite a while, 1695 02:00:27.760 --> 02:00:30.359 what kind of what were the next you know, subsequent 1696 02:00:30.439 --> 02:00:33.159 years like as you were like in and out of Afghanistan. 1697 02:00:34.680 --> 02:00:38.039 Well, so I didn't go well right for me. I 1698 02:00:38.239 --> 02:00:42.119 actually jumped on another agency team for Operation Anakanda and 1699 02:00:42.479 --> 02:00:47.760 did that, uh and then left. I was the last 1700 02:00:47.880 --> 02:00:52.479 guy in fifth Group to pull out of Afghanistan and 1701 02:00:53.760 --> 02:00:56.960 went back to headquarters. And I had been asked for 1702 02:00:57.319 --> 02:01:01.600 by the agency by name this time to be detailed 1703 02:01:03.720 --> 02:01:06.399 to a Middle Eastern country to do some pre Iraq 1704 02:01:08.039 --> 02:01:13.880 preparation of the battlefield stuff there. So there's a lot 1705 02:01:13.920 --> 02:01:16.800 of paperwork to do to prep for that. So yeah, 1706 02:01:16.840 --> 02:01:21.239 I went home in April of two thousand and two, 1707 02:01:22.920 --> 02:01:27.600 took some leave, and then started having to travel to 1708 02:01:27.840 --> 02:01:33.680 get all the clearances and visit the places I need 1709 02:01:33.800 --> 02:01:39.840 to visit to get detailed to the agency. So that 1710 02:01:40.680 --> 02:01:44.600 late after the summer, I wound up being a signed 1711 02:01:44.600 --> 02:01:48.239 to the agency for two years. So that was two 1712 02:01:48.279 --> 02:01:53.399 thousand and two, and I was brought there to do 1713 02:01:53.520 --> 02:01:57.920 this sort of cross border thing, to do the tactical 1714 02:01:58.680 --> 02:02:04.840 side of that, you know. In the run up to 1715 02:02:05.159 --> 02:02:11.479 the agency was collecting some information and running some low 1716 02:02:11.600 --> 02:02:18.840 level people and they had to negotiate the assets, had 1717 02:02:18.920 --> 02:02:23.840 to negotiate Iraqi security. And then there was this little 1718 02:02:23.880 --> 02:02:28.119 problem of the UN. The UN no goes on where 1719 02:02:28.520 --> 02:02:34.359 Americans weren't supposed to be either, and they it had 1720 02:02:34.399 --> 02:02:41.439 been run by by Kuwaiti's before cops, untrained cops with 1721 02:02:42.119 --> 02:02:46.159 thirty eight revolvers, and they got hit in an ambush. 1722 02:02:46.239 --> 02:02:49.640 They were set up by a turncoat and they got 1723 02:02:49.760 --> 02:02:52.600 ambushed and a couple of them killed. That's when they 1724 02:02:52.680 --> 02:02:57.840 decided they needed some experience, some tactical side to come 1725 02:02:57.880 --> 02:03:04.600 in and take over that part. So I was working 1726 02:03:04.720 --> 02:03:09.079 with a small group of Waity policemen and there was 1727 02:03:09.199 --> 02:03:12.800 a case officer in charge. 1728 02:03:14.560 --> 02:03:18.079 And you were just like doing operational preparation of the 1729 02:03:18.119 --> 02:03:19.159 battle space before. 1730 02:03:20.520 --> 02:03:24.520 Yeah, my job was this, Yeah, my job was to 1731 02:03:24.800 --> 02:03:27.119 sneak in, you know, past the UN. We had some 1732 02:03:27.279 --> 02:03:31.560 interesting times where UN troops would come. You know, it's 1733 02:03:31.560 --> 02:03:35.880 an open desert, so you use different techniques in an 1734 02:03:35.920 --> 02:03:39.600 open desert. And I know we were up in this 1735 02:03:39.840 --> 02:03:44.000 tower once and suddenly some UN guys stopped in there, 1736 02:03:44.239 --> 02:03:47.439 and we're up in the tower. I remember taking my 1737 02:03:48.560 --> 02:03:51.880 me and the other guy took our The other American 1738 02:03:52.600 --> 02:03:56.319 took our boots off to creep down this spiral stair 1739 02:03:56.479 --> 02:04:00.399 middle spiral stairway, and they were in they were joking 1740 02:04:00.479 --> 02:04:02.880 and laughing in this other room with I think it 1741 02:04:03.000 --> 02:04:08.000 was Dutch soldiers from the UN. And we went creeping 1742 02:04:08.079 --> 02:04:13.239 by the door to get out, and and it was sky. 1743 02:04:13.600 --> 02:04:15.800 These were cops, so it was it was kind of 1744 02:04:15.880 --> 02:04:21.279 like herding goats. They were they didn't know what they 1745 02:04:21.319 --> 02:04:24.680 were doing, but they had some guns and they thought 1746 02:04:24.680 --> 02:04:26.760 they were bad. So I had to keep everybody close 1747 02:04:26.880 --> 02:04:30.359 enough that I could put hands and push somebody, pull somebody, 1748 02:04:30.560 --> 02:04:32.760 or kick somebody to get them to do what I 1749 02:04:32.840 --> 02:04:37.119 wanted to do. At least I thought that was a thing. 1750 02:04:37.319 --> 02:04:42.159 I was the big, badass SEF guy. One time, my 1751 02:04:42.359 --> 02:04:45.119 humorist got me into a little bit of trouble because 1752 02:04:46.640 --> 02:04:49.720 at the border between Kuwait and Iraq, there's this fifteen 1753 02:04:49.880 --> 02:04:53.439 foot deep, fifteen foot wide trench and a burm. It 1754 02:04:53.560 --> 02:04:59.920 was a tank barrier. The person that we had recovered 1755 02:05:00.640 --> 02:05:03.399 that night. You know, my job was to get them 1756 02:05:03.680 --> 02:05:09.039 in and get them to a place where agency people 1757 02:05:09.079 --> 02:05:14.239 could debrief from Intestine an accent, yeah and asset and 1758 02:05:14.359 --> 02:05:18.920 they were like low level of smugglers. So and then 1759 02:05:19.000 --> 02:05:24.720 my job would be to get him back into Iraq. So, yeah, 1760 02:05:24.760 --> 02:05:28.600 this guy had been lost for several hours down in 1761 02:05:28.680 --> 02:05:34.840 this ditch and uh so the the uh The senior 1762 02:05:34.960 --> 02:05:37.720 policeman said, oh, I know a place. You know, I 1763 02:05:38.199 --> 02:05:40.039 live here. I know a place we can get him 1764 02:05:40.079 --> 02:05:45.840 back across easy, Like okay, So we go and I 1765 02:05:45.960 --> 02:05:49.399 didn't see that. It looked it was some places it 1766 02:05:49.560 --> 02:05:53.079 was eroded down but this place was not eroded. But 1767 02:05:53.239 --> 02:05:57.399 he said, it's the the dirt is is stiff enough 1768 02:05:57.439 --> 02:06:01.359 he should be able to climb. Well, you know, we 1769 02:06:01.520 --> 02:06:04.760 held this guy by the arms and dropped him into 1770 02:06:04.840 --> 02:06:07.760 this hole and I'm watching through. I'm the only one 1771 02:06:07.800 --> 02:06:11.159 with mvgs, and I'm watching him struggle and struggle and 1772 02:06:11.159 --> 02:06:13.279 struggle to try to climb out on the other side. 1773 02:06:13.920 --> 02:06:18.439 And he's not getting anywhere. And after a while, an 1774 02:06:18.479 --> 02:06:21.239 Iraqi patrol is going to stop by here anytime. And 1775 02:06:21.319 --> 02:06:24.000 we're sitting here watching this, and I was like, these 1776 02:06:24.520 --> 02:06:27.319 these guys are all idiots, but you know, I'm a badass. 1777 02:06:27.600 --> 02:06:29.720 And I not only that, and not only I'm a 1778 02:06:29.760 --> 02:06:36.119 bad ass, I am experienced rock climber. I ate, I 1779 02:06:36.239 --> 02:06:39.319 climbed buildings in Delta. I know what I'm doing. So 1780 02:06:39.439 --> 02:06:41.600 I said, I'll get I'll get him back out. And 1781 02:06:41.720 --> 02:06:43.800 I had the guys hold me by the arms and 1782 02:06:43.880 --> 02:06:46.960 drop me down in this hole. I go over, put 1783 02:06:47.000 --> 02:06:51.319 the guy on my shoulders, get him up, go back 1784 02:06:51.399 --> 02:06:53.720 to get out. I went to a place where there 1785 02:06:53.840 --> 02:06:56.760 was a ninety degree corner to try to climb out, 1786 02:06:57.279 --> 02:07:00.880 and guess what, I couldn't get out. And now I'm like, 1787 02:07:01.319 --> 02:07:04.600 wait a second, I'm not stuck in this hole and 1788 02:07:04.720 --> 02:07:09.199 everybody's up there and the iraqis are here, and I 1789 02:07:09.279 --> 02:07:12.840 can't get out, and and I'm I'm supposed to be 1790 02:07:12.920 --> 02:07:18.079 the guy that's the mature, experienced guy. And you know, 1791 02:07:18.199 --> 02:07:22.079 I think I was thinking about, oh my god, this 1792 02:07:22.279 --> 02:07:24.520 is going to be hard to live, because eventually a 1793 02:07:24.640 --> 02:07:27.199 patrol is going to come by I'm going to get captured. 1794 02:07:27.199 --> 02:07:28.880 I didn't think they'd kill me, I said, but I'm 1795 02:07:28.880 --> 02:07:31.079 going to get captured. And when I'm released at the 1796 02:07:31.199 --> 02:07:32.800 end of the war, I'm gonna have to explain that 1797 02:07:33.479 --> 02:07:36.279 I was captured because I got stuck in a hole. Uh, 1798 02:07:39.199 --> 02:07:44.279 I was. I was worried about that, but we thought 1799 02:07:44.319 --> 02:07:47.640 about it. And the other American had these hiking boots on. 1800 02:07:48.039 --> 02:07:53.279 So I had several guys undo their boot laces and 1801 02:07:53.439 --> 02:07:56.279 time all together and made the line and I was 1802 02:07:56.359 --> 02:07:59.039 able to make a loop in the line and uh 1803 02:07:59.359 --> 02:08:02.640 get enough that I could get one foot enough where 1804 02:08:03.520 --> 02:08:07.279 I eventually got out of the out of that predicament, 1805 02:08:07.560 --> 02:08:11.840 as we call it, a gift. And the smuggler, uh, 1806 02:08:11.960 --> 02:08:16.600 you know, I had gotten him side, so he was 1807 02:08:16.720 --> 02:08:19.199 good to go and we got But the first thing 1808 02:08:19.279 --> 02:08:21.720 I did after that was by a collapsible ladder that 1809 02:08:21.880 --> 02:08:25.920 I carried to the border with me. Every time after that, 1810 02:08:26.239 --> 02:08:26.560 I was. 1811 02:08:26.880 --> 02:08:29.680 I was once detained by the Kurdish secret police who 1812 02:08:30.079 --> 02:08:32.880 they alleged that I scrambled across that burm from the 1813 02:08:32.960 --> 02:08:36.399 Syrian side into Iraq. Now there's never any proof to 1814 02:08:36.479 --> 02:08:39.800 substantiate such claims, but you know that I spent I 1815 02:08:39.840 --> 02:08:43.640 spent the night in their jail, which was a fun experience. 1816 02:08:43.960 --> 02:08:46.319 But yeah, those those burms are no joke. 1817 02:08:48.479 --> 02:08:50.279 Well that's that's interesting that you got to spend the 1818 02:08:50.359 --> 02:08:50.960 night in the jail. 1819 02:08:51.079 --> 02:08:59.119 Yea later, so so, yeah, you're doing the agency detail 1820 02:08:59.199 --> 02:09:00.359 and then the war kick soft. 1821 02:09:02.000 --> 02:09:06.199 Yeah, the war kicked off. I went in and it was, 1822 02:09:08.359 --> 02:09:11.000 you know, just a lot of interesting stuff. I I 1823 02:09:12.159 --> 02:09:17.199 I went in. The former cos of Iraq was in 1824 02:09:17.399 --> 02:09:21.640 sitting in Kuwait, and he had his GRS detail. It 1825 02:09:21.720 --> 02:09:27.239 was going to take him back in Charlie and I 1826 02:09:27.399 --> 02:09:29.560 forget what happened, but his details. He was going to 1827 02:09:29.640 --> 02:09:33.640 go in from Saudi and Iraq was still going on. 1828 02:09:33.840 --> 02:09:37.359 I think the battle was had moved to Najeff at 1829 02:09:37.399 --> 02:09:45.199 this point, and uh they for whatever, whoever decided in 1830 02:09:45.319 --> 02:09:47.680 the agency. He was going to go in and get 1831 02:09:47.720 --> 02:09:50.399 a look, go forward and meet up with a guy 1832 02:09:50.520 --> 02:09:57.199 named Greg V that was running the show from inside 1833 02:09:57.439 --> 02:10:00.479 Afghanistan at the time, I mean Iraq at the time. 1834 02:10:02.479 --> 02:10:06.600 Greg V and I were lieutenants together in second recombat. 1835 02:10:06.640 --> 02:10:09.039 Oh wow, Okay, I didn't know that, and I bet 1836 02:10:09.159 --> 02:10:12.119 I didn't. I didn't you know, Well, no, I have 1837 02:10:12.199 --> 02:10:14.039 asked him to come on the show before. I'm still 1838 02:10:14.239 --> 02:10:16.239 I'm still working it. I hope I can convince him 1839 02:10:16.239 --> 02:10:16.600 one day. 1840 02:10:17.720 --> 02:10:21.199 Yeah. Well, Greg and I were lieutenants together and I 1841 02:10:21.239 --> 02:10:25.039 didn't see him again until two thousand and two Afghanistan 1842 02:10:25.640 --> 02:10:28.560 and the guy, the agency guy I was the tactical 1843 02:10:28.720 --> 02:10:31.640 leader for like me, and he said, hey, you need 1844 02:10:31.680 --> 02:10:33.640 to join the agency. Let me take you and introduce 1845 02:10:33.680 --> 02:10:36.119 you to somebody, and I went, of course, we all 1846 02:10:36.199 --> 02:10:42.000 had beards and civilian clothes. There's this guy, bearded guy 1847 02:10:42.800 --> 02:10:47.439 taking a nap. He stands up, he goes, Oh, Gary Herrington, 1848 02:10:47.520 --> 02:10:50.239 second a company, second recomma tell you. In nineteen eighty three, 1849 02:10:50.720 --> 02:10:54.600 I was like, you agency guys must do your homework 1850 02:10:55.840 --> 02:10:58.119 and he said, I guess you don't remember me, And 1851 02:10:58.720 --> 02:11:00.920 no I didn't at the time, again because we all 1852 02:11:01.000 --> 02:11:04.479 had quite different look than we did as young marines. 1853 02:11:07.359 --> 02:11:11.119 And then after so after that we renewed our friendship 1854 02:11:11.560 --> 02:11:17.840 and then we worked together in Iraq and so yeah, 1855 02:11:18.119 --> 02:11:23.199 I but Charlie Saddell or Charlie didn't have his detail. 1856 02:11:24.159 --> 02:11:26.319 But they said, hey, this guy Gary, he knows what 1857 02:11:26.399 --> 02:11:28.479 he's doing. He can take you into a raq. So 1858 02:11:28.600 --> 02:11:30.359 they said, hey, will you do it. So yeah, I 1859 02:11:31.199 --> 02:11:36.600 by myself on a helicopter took him into into Iraq 1860 02:11:36.680 --> 02:11:40.640 and for his tour and back out. I went in 1861 02:11:40.880 --> 02:11:46.640 and out of bag Dad. The agency let me do 1862 02:11:46.880 --> 02:11:52.800 things that you should be an agency certified form certified 1863 02:11:52.840 --> 02:11:57.720 person to do. But they they decided I could do it. 1864 02:11:57.960 --> 02:12:01.000 So they gave me a few little tests and I 1865 02:12:01.199 --> 02:12:07.279 so I was running some assets in Baghdad in the area. 1866 02:12:08.000 --> 02:12:13.159 I was in Baghdad once with a hooked up with 1867 02:12:13.279 --> 02:12:16.800 a seal. We were looking at doing a hit on 1868 02:12:16.960 --> 02:12:20.279 a terror cell that was located by the Shiah mosque. 1869 02:12:21.760 --> 02:12:25.560 It was a shrine and this is just right after 1870 02:12:25.760 --> 02:12:31.359 Bagdad fell. So the Shiah were very happy and exuberant 1871 02:12:32.359 --> 02:12:35.239 and we wanted to get eyes on. So we had 1872 02:12:35.600 --> 02:12:42.279 rusted Toyota Corolla cruiser that we were in and I'm driving, 1873 02:12:42.399 --> 02:12:44.880 so we kept trying to get through and the road 1874 02:12:45.079 --> 02:12:47.960 was blocked off as we got close, so I'd back off, 1875 02:12:48.159 --> 02:12:52.279 go around, try to come in again. The roads backed off, 1876 02:12:52.760 --> 02:12:57.159 so finally I found a drainage ditch behind the shrine, 1877 02:12:57.720 --> 02:13:02.680 straddled it with the car ease through there and uh, 1878 02:13:02.960 --> 02:13:05.079 you know, it's hard going, but I got through there. 1879 02:13:05.159 --> 02:13:08.800 But as we rounded the corner of the building into 1880 02:13:08.880 --> 02:13:13.520 the square. Suddenly we happened on tens of thousands of 1881 02:13:13.640 --> 02:13:17.640 Iraqi Ashia and they were having a giant It's their 1882 02:13:17.760 --> 02:13:23.439 first asura since the fall. And suddenly you were in 1883 02:13:23.560 --> 02:13:25.880 it and I couldn't back up. It was too with 1884 02:13:26.000 --> 02:13:28.680 a ditch and where I couldn't back up. And then 1885 02:13:28.840 --> 02:13:31.279 just a way but right before the wave of people 1886 02:13:31.399 --> 02:13:35.039 came on us, you know, grab the camera off the dash, 1887 02:13:35.159 --> 02:13:37.920 you know, pull the camera down, take off your shirt. 1888 02:13:38.399 --> 02:13:41.359 You know, we had outer shirts on, cover up the rifles. 1889 02:13:42.079 --> 02:13:44.960 And you know, there's nothing you can do when you're 1890 02:13:45.039 --> 02:13:48.279 in that sea of people. You can't run over enough 1891 02:13:48.880 --> 02:13:52.880 or shoot enough, yeah, to get it out, and people 1892 02:13:52.920 --> 02:13:55.520 would be plastered on us, and hey, you know, my 1893 02:13:55.640 --> 02:14:00.159 big soldier to act was to look at people and 1894 02:14:00.359 --> 02:14:04.920 smile and go, you know, I'm just a dumb American 1895 02:14:05.399 --> 02:14:07.239 and like some and they glare at you. Then they 1896 02:14:07.319 --> 02:14:09.640 go okay, and the guy would move you a few feet. 1897 02:14:11.119 --> 02:14:13.479 Then you'd renegotiate with the next and the next and 1898 02:14:13.520 --> 02:14:17.159 the next. I think it took us thirty forty five 1899 02:14:17.239 --> 02:14:22.760 minutes to get out of that crowd. Whoa out, you know, 1900 02:14:23.439 --> 02:14:27.960 And I just kept picturing, you know, getting ripped apart 1901 02:14:28.039 --> 02:14:28.520 by people. 1902 02:14:28.680 --> 02:14:31.640 Well, there's that famous case study about the surveillance team 1903 02:14:31.760 --> 02:14:34.520 that was I believe it was an ira. 1904 02:14:34.399 --> 02:14:39.399 Web Ira Yeah, yes, and they got ira wedding. Yeah yeah, 1905 02:14:39.880 --> 02:14:43.520 as a funeral. Maybe it was a funeral, and we 1906 02:14:43.640 --> 02:14:45.399 had I think we had talked about that in Delta 1907 02:14:46.000 --> 02:14:50.840 and those guys yeah, were doing surveillance and got made 1908 02:14:50.960 --> 02:14:53.239 and pulled out of the car and killed. Yeah. Yeah, 1909 02:14:53.279 --> 02:14:56.199 that went through That exact incident went through my mind. 1910 02:14:56.800 --> 02:15:03.840 We were there, but ay, you know it was it 1911 02:15:03.960 --> 02:15:08.399 was different. We had, you know, some adventures and had fun. 1912 02:15:08.520 --> 02:15:11.520 I had kind of made my bones with the agency, 1913 02:15:12.560 --> 02:15:19.439 so they were supportive of me trying to come into 1914 02:15:19.520 --> 02:15:25.520 the agency. And I finished my two years as a 1915 02:15:25.560 --> 02:15:28.920 detailer in two thousand and four and had been running 1916 02:15:28.960 --> 02:15:32.800 back and forth to Iraq. You know, during the day, 1917 02:15:32.800 --> 02:15:35.680 I'd be at the embassy like everybody else. And guess 1918 02:15:35.680 --> 02:15:37.920 who else came to the embassy and was a signaire, 1919 02:15:38.239 --> 02:15:42.279 John Mulholland. Again he was working at the I think 1920 02:15:42.319 --> 02:15:45.319 it was the OMA office there, So we got to 1921 02:15:45.359 --> 02:15:50.680 see each other again and work together a little bit, 1922 02:15:51.039 --> 02:15:56.479 and so the agency supported me. I came back to 1923 02:15:56.600 --> 02:16:01.880 the US fifth group had changed significantly. All the people 1924 02:16:02.000 --> 02:16:07.000 were gone. They gave me a barracks room over the 1925 02:16:07.159 --> 02:16:11.359 gym for two weeks, and I just hand carried my 1926 02:16:11.439 --> 02:16:19.000 paperwork and punched out of the Army against advice. And 1927 02:16:19.039 --> 02:16:20.920 I didn't do all the proper things you're supposed to 1928 02:16:20.960 --> 02:16:26.079 do when you retire. But I was by that time 1929 02:16:26.239 --> 02:16:31.960 when I was in my forties, forty six maybe, and 1930 02:16:32.079 --> 02:16:35.399 the agency had a job for me, and I was like, 1931 02:16:35.559 --> 02:16:38.319 you know, I can't this is my chance. If I wait, 1932 02:16:39.159 --> 02:16:43.399 I'll miss it. So I left Fort Campbell on a 1933 02:16:43.520 --> 02:16:48.719 Friday and reported for work Monday at Langley. Wow. 1934 02:16:49.799 --> 02:16:52.879 And what was what was the job they had lined. 1935 02:16:52.760 --> 02:16:58.799 Up for you? Well, the job I'd been promised, hey case, 1936 02:16:59.200 --> 02:17:04.760 that I'd become an operations officer case officer. Yeah, and 1937 02:17:04.840 --> 02:17:08.360 that I you know, I'd already recruited and all that 1938 02:17:08.440 --> 02:17:13.520 stuff free agency. And but then I got there and 1939 02:17:13.639 --> 02:17:17.559 they go, oh, you can start out as a GS 1940 02:17:17.680 --> 02:17:21.319 eleven and you can't be an operations officer. You're can 1941 02:17:21.440 --> 02:17:25.680 be a sue A support officer. And I was like, huh, 1942 02:17:25.920 --> 02:17:31.440 what what what? Wait a minute to me support officer 1943 02:17:32.440 --> 02:17:35.120 And they said well, you're going to have to do 1944 02:17:35.280 --> 02:17:38.959 that for a while. And so I showed up with 1945 02:17:39.200 --> 02:17:43.920 the Near East Division and that was my job to 1946 02:17:44.159 --> 02:17:50.479 sit at a desk and support Iraqi ops write cables 1947 02:17:51.399 --> 02:17:56.000 and I did that. I did everything I could. I'd 1948 02:17:56.040 --> 02:17:59.799 been fortunate over from the time I was in Yemen 1949 02:18:00.879 --> 02:18:08.280 to Kuwait doing you know, an army project, to when 1950 02:18:08.319 --> 02:18:12.000 I was detailed, and throughout that time in the war, 1951 02:18:12.600 --> 02:18:15.959 a lot of agency people I met a lot, and 1952 02:18:16.000 --> 02:18:19.479 a lot of them depended on me to take care 1953 02:18:19.520 --> 02:18:25.200 of them in the hostile environments. So I guess I 1954 02:18:25.360 --> 02:18:29.719 had friends on the inside and they were telling me, 1955 02:18:29.760 --> 02:18:32.440 you're going to have to do two years before you 1956 02:18:32.520 --> 02:18:35.040 can even be considered to do the training to get 1957 02:18:35.120 --> 02:18:38.079 certified as a case officer. I'm like, but I already 1958 02:18:38.479 --> 02:18:46.600 recruited and doesn't count. And you know, well, I wound 1959 02:18:46.719 --> 02:18:52.440 up after six months there getting my opportunity to go 1960 02:18:52.680 --> 02:18:56.879 to the course to get certified. So I did that, 1961 02:18:57.239 --> 02:19:00.440 and that's you were talking two thousand and five. And 1962 02:19:00.600 --> 02:19:04.479 then I said, you know, because I chose to go 1963 02:19:05.079 --> 02:19:09.360 case officer route instead of ground branch, because you know, 1964 02:19:09.479 --> 02:19:11.520 I was trying to look ahead. I was in my forties, 1965 02:19:11.719 --> 02:19:17.120 I was still great shape and very capable. But I 1966 02:19:17.239 --> 02:19:19.879 was like, I got to do this till I'm sixty 1967 02:19:19.959 --> 02:19:22.639 five or so, and I don't want to be that guy, 1968 02:19:23.239 --> 02:19:27.840 white haired guy trying to still tote the rifle and 1969 02:19:28.040 --> 02:19:31.879 hang out with the badasses. And if I'm a case officer, 1970 02:19:31.959 --> 02:19:34.879 I can have I've never had for the last fifteen years, 1971 02:19:34.879 --> 02:19:37.360 I haven't had a regular life. I can have a 1972 02:19:37.520 --> 02:19:43.479 regular life and still contribute. So so I went that 1973 02:19:43.680 --> 02:19:47.600 round and had made him promise me that, hey, I've 1974 02:19:47.639 --> 02:19:50.440 done a lot of war stuff for you guys. Now 1975 02:19:50.559 --> 02:19:52.760 I want one of those embassy jobs. I want to 1976 02:19:52.840 --> 02:19:55.879 like go to Geneva or somewhere where I can like 1977 02:19:56.000 --> 02:20:00.159 have a good time, live a good life and all that. 1978 02:20:00.840 --> 02:20:03.719 And so I was set to go somewhere. It was 1979 02:20:03.920 --> 02:20:10.239 not Geneva. It was Saudi Arabia, so but it's still 1980 02:20:10.319 --> 02:20:13.440 it wasn't a case officer job. It was a case 1981 02:20:13.520 --> 02:20:17.319 officer job. And then after I graduated the course. A 1982 02:20:17.440 --> 02:20:21.760 day I graduated, the division's personnel officer sent me a 1983 02:20:21.840 --> 02:20:27.280 note congratulations on graduating the course, said please come by 1984 02:20:27.319 --> 02:20:31.479 my office at your earliest convenience about your assignment. So 1985 02:20:31.639 --> 02:20:34.159 I showed up and I said hey, and he goes, 1986 02:20:34.239 --> 02:20:39.840 then no, you're not going there. And what am I doing. Well, 1987 02:20:41.200 --> 02:20:46.520 there's a dire need in Afghanistan and they need you 1988 02:20:46.760 --> 02:20:49.079 and they asked for you, so you're going to Afghanistan. 1989 02:20:50.440 --> 02:20:55.840 I can't not me back to Afghanistan and they go, yep, Afghanistan. 1990 02:20:57.159 --> 02:20:59.479 It turned out it was the Greg V guy was 1991 02:20:59.600 --> 02:21:06.000 the chief and had some people that backed out of assignments. 1992 02:21:06.520 --> 02:21:08.680 I still had the soldier in me where I thought, 1993 02:21:09.200 --> 02:21:11.799 you know, when you're told you have to go somewhere, 1994 02:21:12.120 --> 02:21:15.440 you can complain and you can say ask him to reconsider, 1995 02:21:16.200 --> 02:21:19.360 but you still have to go. I didn't realize, No, 1996 02:21:19.479 --> 02:21:20.200 that's not how it is. 1997 02:21:20.440 --> 02:21:23.239 He yeah, yeah. The interesting thing about the CIA is that, 1998 02:21:23.399 --> 02:21:25.280 like you're not a soldier, they can't order you to 1999 02:21:25.360 --> 02:21:26.920 go to a war zone if you don't want to go. 2000 02:21:28.040 --> 02:21:32.399 But I didn't know that really, so I was like, okay, 2001 02:21:32.639 --> 02:21:35.040 But it all went and it turned out it was 2002 02:21:35.120 --> 02:21:40.360 Greg you know, and and you know, I respect him 2003 02:21:40.559 --> 02:21:45.959 a lot and trust him a lot, and he really 2004 02:21:46.000 --> 02:21:49.719 wanted me, so I was happy to work with him. 2005 02:21:49.840 --> 02:21:53.719 And I worked with him, and you know, he was 2006 02:21:53.840 --> 02:21:57.200 towards the last half of his tour there. So he 2007 02:21:57.440 --> 02:22:01.360 left and was replaced by the guy who had been 2008 02:22:01.399 --> 02:22:04.239 a team leader that I was, a guy named Chris, 2009 02:22:05.319 --> 02:22:09.360 and I was had been his tactical team leader in Afghanistan. 2010 02:22:09.479 --> 02:22:13.959 Oh okay, so between the two of them, now, I'm 2011 02:22:14.000 --> 02:22:18.239 a case officer, but they knew me with my military skills, 2012 02:22:19.760 --> 02:22:23.360 so I sort of went by. They gave me sort 2013 02:22:23.360 --> 02:22:29.239 of a different set of rules than other case officers had, 2014 02:22:29.440 --> 02:22:34.159 so I guess I had more freedom of movement and 2015 02:22:34.959 --> 02:22:41.399 more leeway at pursuing some different kind of you know. 2016 02:22:41.559 --> 02:22:45.000 It wasn't the usual embassy stuff. You know. I was 2017 02:22:45.520 --> 02:22:49.600 going after I D people, and I was for a 2018 02:22:49.680 --> 02:22:52.879 while I was meeting a guy that would bring ied 2019 02:22:53.239 --> 02:22:56.959 trigger devices from Pakistan in and I would meet him 2020 02:22:57.000 --> 02:22:58.360 and give him a little bit of money and i'd 2021 02:22:59.239 --> 02:23:04.040 I'd take the devices instead. Yeah, And then after a while, 2022 02:23:04.239 --> 02:23:07.799 It's funny, I got called into the headquarters and they said, hey, 2023 02:23:09.040 --> 02:23:11.959 we have like especially trained explosive people that should be 2024 02:23:12.000 --> 02:23:14.479 getting these. I go, what are they going to do 2025 02:23:14.520 --> 02:23:17.200 that I'm doing? You know, I was a breacher. I've 2026 02:23:17.200 --> 02:23:20.280 been trained breacher. I know I can take a triggering 2027 02:23:20.360 --> 02:23:24.760 device and it's not but it's you're not qualified, and 2028 02:23:26.000 --> 02:23:28.639 you know it works differently in the agency about your 2029 02:23:28.799 --> 02:23:34.639 qualifications and stuff. So I did that. I did some 2030 02:23:35.600 --> 02:23:42.399 stuff where I convinced some Taliban that they were on 2031 02:23:42.440 --> 02:23:45.000 the wrong side of the fence and they should do 2032 02:23:45.120 --> 02:23:50.079 some other things. I did a couple of the you know, 2033 02:23:50.440 --> 02:23:55.200 traditional case officer recruitments and hirings and all that. 2034 02:23:56.079 --> 02:23:58.000 You also mentioned to me that there are a few 2035 02:23:58.040 --> 02:24:01.920 stories from this timeframe that you quard through the PRBH 2036 02:24:02.200 --> 02:24:05.639 that I'd love to hear if you if you can tell, Yeah, 2037 02:24:05.760 --> 02:24:06.360 well one of them. 2038 02:24:06.520 --> 02:24:11.600 Uh, yeah, So I did do some stuff with Taliban 2039 02:24:11.719 --> 02:24:17.360 and turning some Taliban. One of the stories that an 2040 02:24:17.440 --> 02:24:21.319 interesting one is that I was standing on a corner 2041 02:24:21.520 --> 02:24:24.959 in Kabul called Masoud Circle. It's right by where the 2042 02:24:25.120 --> 02:24:29.920 US embassy was, just outside the security zone, and I 2043 02:24:30.399 --> 02:24:33.159 might have been breaking rules. And I'm standing on the 2044 02:24:33.200 --> 02:24:36.840 street corner with an interpreter waiting to meet in Nafghan 2045 02:24:36.959 --> 02:24:41.559 that I want to take back an interview. And you know, 2046 02:24:41.600 --> 02:24:45.520 while you're standing there, your situational awareness is really turned on. 2047 02:24:45.760 --> 02:24:49.479 You're scanning, you're looking, You're you know, if is anybody 2048 02:24:49.559 --> 02:24:51.079 going to try to come up and try to kill me, 2049 02:24:51.840 --> 02:24:56.000 I'm watching. And as I'm doing that, while we're waiting, 2050 02:24:57.440 --> 02:25:00.920 my attention for a brief moment when on this off 2051 02:25:00.959 --> 02:25:06.399 to my left a black Toyota Corolla. And but I 2052 02:25:06.479 --> 02:25:09.879 was like, okay, well I don't really see anything wrong 2053 02:25:09.920 --> 02:25:14.159 with that, and back, and you know, I was keeping scanning. 2054 02:25:14.239 --> 02:25:17.319 But then I kept turning back to that black Toyota. 2055 02:25:17.639 --> 02:25:20.040 Well then I noticed, well, there's two guys in it, 2056 02:25:21.079 --> 02:25:23.600 and they see me. We're about thirty yards apart, so 2057 02:25:23.680 --> 02:25:28.600 they clearly see that I'm an American. And and then 2058 02:25:28.639 --> 02:25:33.159 I you know, but I was ignoring that little sixth 2059 02:25:33.200 --> 02:25:36.760 sense that comes on in you because I was trying 2060 02:25:36.799 --> 02:25:40.040 to get something done right, So I just kept making excuses. 2061 02:25:40.520 --> 02:25:43.280 There was a cop about ten yards away from that, 2062 02:25:44.000 --> 02:25:47.399 uh that car, and I told myself, well, if there 2063 02:25:47.479 --> 02:25:50.760 was something wrong, the cop wouldn't let them be there, 2064 02:25:51.600 --> 02:25:54.719 because I thought, I'm just bothered because cars don't normally 2065 02:25:54.879 --> 02:25:58.719 park there. And uh, well, then the guy that I 2066 02:25:58.879 --> 02:26:01.920 was waiting for showed up. So we turned around, the 2067 02:26:02.040 --> 02:26:05.680 interpreter and I went back through the security zone. It's 2068 02:26:05.719 --> 02:26:08.479 about one hundred and fifty meters to the gate, and 2069 02:26:08.559 --> 02:26:11.399 we went in and as we were coming in the gate. 2070 02:26:11.639 --> 02:26:14.000 You know, there was just a deafening explosion and the 2071 02:26:14.079 --> 02:26:18.680 ground shaking and the alarm went off. You know, you 2072 02:26:18.760 --> 02:26:21.399 had to get inside the buildings and get on the 2073 02:26:21.440 --> 02:26:27.399 floor and wait, we're probably there. A couple hours things 2074 02:26:27.440 --> 02:26:33.680 started dying down. I went to see the regional security 2075 02:26:33.760 --> 02:26:39.079 officers there that run security for embassies, and I asked him, 2076 02:26:39.079 --> 02:26:43.600 I said, hey, was that a vehicle of Ebid? And 2077 02:26:43.680 --> 02:26:48.920 they said it was. Was it at Kabul's Circle, our 2078 02:26:49.079 --> 02:26:54.799 Masud circle? Right out here? It was? It hit a 2079 02:26:54.840 --> 02:26:59.799 military US military convoy, killed two soldiers, injured four, and 2080 02:27:00.280 --> 02:27:05.159 killed a bunch of Afghans. And I said no, I said, 2081 02:27:05.399 --> 02:27:08.399 was it a black Toyota Corolla? And the guy stopped 2082 02:27:08.399 --> 02:27:12.200 me and he said, nobody knows that. We're just finding 2083 02:27:12.520 --> 02:27:16.239 pieces of that. Nobody knows that. I said, well, I 2084 02:27:16.399 --> 02:27:18.440 was there two minutes before it went off. There were 2085 02:27:18.479 --> 02:27:23.360 two guys in it, so I mean, that's just one 2086 02:27:23.399 --> 02:27:27.120 of those stories that happens. The lesson I took from 2087 02:27:27.200 --> 02:27:31.639 that was pay attention to your instincts and if something's 2088 02:27:31.680 --> 02:27:35.399 bothering you, you know, you need to definitively rule it 2089 02:27:35.559 --> 02:27:38.879 out threat or not threat, but be definitive about it. 2090 02:27:39.239 --> 02:27:42.760 Don't let it sit there, because I've many times imagined 2091 02:27:42.799 --> 02:27:46.360 the conversation those guys had. You know, hey, let's just 2092 02:27:46.399 --> 02:27:49.079 do it now. Here's an American right here. All we 2093 02:27:49.159 --> 02:27:51.280 have to do is touch the wires together. And maybe 2094 02:27:51.319 --> 02:27:54.159 the other guy, well they told us military convoy, and 2095 02:27:54.639 --> 02:27:56.879 but who knows if that's gonna come. Here's one right now, 2096 02:27:57.319 --> 02:28:00.479 and they didn't. The pictures that were went around the 2097 02:28:00.520 --> 02:28:05.559 world after of that explosion, aftermath where I was standing 2098 02:28:05.760 --> 02:28:09.319 was just gone. It was obliterated. The tree, so everything 2099 02:28:09.600 --> 02:28:15.200 was just it was just gone. So, you know, fate 2100 02:28:15.879 --> 02:28:18.479 was with me that day, even though I probably made 2101 02:28:18.520 --> 02:28:21.639 some bad choices about sticking around. 2102 02:28:23.200 --> 02:28:28.040 Yeah, and then there's another another one about asset recovery. 2103 02:28:31.000 --> 02:28:36.159 Yeah. So I had had some success with some a 2104 02:28:36.239 --> 02:28:40.079 couple ops I did with ground branch guys where we 2105 02:28:42.360 --> 02:28:47.399 UH flipped some Taliban. He actually got some Taliban fighters 2106 02:28:48.399 --> 02:28:54.399 that we did some stuff, you know with UH for 2107 02:28:54.520 --> 02:28:57.559 a while. And as a following on to that, there 2108 02:28:57.799 --> 02:28:59.920 was a one of the guys that was on the 2109 02:29:00.120 --> 02:29:07.879 top ten list, Mullah Kabir, that was in Pakistan and 2110 02:29:08.239 --> 02:29:12.040 through some people I'd been trying to reach out to 2111 02:29:12.159 --> 02:29:17.600 him to make overtures that if he would come in 2112 02:29:18.120 --> 02:29:23.559 and or cooperate with me, you know, I'd try to 2113 02:29:23.559 --> 02:29:28.399 get him off the list of that that means death, 2114 02:29:28.559 --> 02:29:30.520 because you know, if we can get you, we're going 2115 02:29:30.559 --> 02:29:34.079 to kill you. But maybe there's another option for you. 2116 02:29:35.200 --> 02:29:40.639 And eventually, and and I'd had some success doing some 2117 02:29:41.479 --> 02:29:46.639 those ops, and we thought we were told that there 2118 02:29:46.959 --> 02:29:50.959 that he would come in, but he was going to 2119 02:29:51.040 --> 02:29:54.200 do so at the border of n Angohar Province in 2120 02:29:54.280 --> 02:29:58.520 Nuristan Province. And that was a back in those days, 2121 02:29:58.520 --> 02:30:02.360 we're talking two thousand and six. I believe it was 2122 02:30:02.399 --> 02:30:03.600 no man's land. It was. 2123 02:30:04.440 --> 02:30:05.000 It was bad. 2124 02:30:05.040 --> 02:30:09.280 I think later a big military US military unit got 2125 02:30:09.319 --> 02:30:16.360 shot up pretty bad there. So I rolled we did 2126 02:30:16.399 --> 02:30:19.120 this op. So it was some ground branch guys and 2127 02:30:19.200 --> 02:30:22.559 I we rolled in into thin skinned vehicles in the 2128 02:30:22.639 --> 02:30:29.159 middle of the night to get in. And we had 2129 02:30:29.680 --> 02:30:33.799 two gun trucks, so pickup trucks that had the local 2130 02:30:33.920 --> 02:30:39.479 Afghans that the agency had trained were remained like thirty 2131 02:30:39.520 --> 02:30:42.600 minutes behind. And our thinking, because we didn't have any 2132 02:30:42.639 --> 02:30:47.200 air support, was that if we got hit, we would 2133 02:30:47.479 --> 02:30:50.040 call in those vehicles and with a twenty or thirty 2134 02:30:50.079 --> 02:30:53.079 minute delay, they could get in and provide some extra 2135 02:30:53.200 --> 02:30:56.799 fire support to extract us, and we didn't plan on 2136 02:30:56.879 --> 02:31:01.200 being there long. You can make an infill at night, 2137 02:31:03.840 --> 02:31:07.079 but in a village or out in a remote place, 2138 02:31:09.840 --> 02:31:13.120 unlike the Seals and Loan survivor, you know that you're 2139 02:31:13.159 --> 02:31:15.040 going to be made and you have to get out 2140 02:31:15.079 --> 02:31:19.000 of there, so you can get in, but the fuse 2141 02:31:19.159 --> 02:31:21.719 is burning, so you don't have long to be there. 2142 02:31:23.760 --> 02:31:26.559 As it started getting light, we backed up into I 2143 02:31:27.159 --> 02:31:31.920 found some guy and we paid him some cash that 2144 02:31:32.079 --> 02:31:35.200 he had a walled compound, so a mud walled compound. 2145 02:31:35.479 --> 02:31:38.639 We were able to get our vehicles there, but you 2146 02:31:39.280 --> 02:31:41.639 know that we're still going to get you. You can't 2147 02:31:42.239 --> 02:31:45.479 be somewhere, and as the village wakes up and people 2148 02:31:45.559 --> 02:31:49.959 start moving around, you know you're essentially made. Well, this 2149 02:31:51.600 --> 02:31:55.479 mullaka bear didn't show, didn't show. I had an Afghan 2150 02:31:55.719 --> 02:32:03.879 general with me wearing plain clothes who was ethnic Poshtune 2151 02:32:04.040 --> 02:32:13.360 from that area and he after we had no phone coverage, 2152 02:32:13.479 --> 02:32:16.760 even Thraia at that point. It wasn't where we couldn't 2153 02:32:16.840 --> 02:32:20.200 hit the satellites. It wasn't working. So we're getting to 2154 02:32:20.280 --> 02:32:22.799 the point where I'm going to have to abandon this mission, 2155 02:32:23.680 --> 02:32:29.879 and we the general decided to go forward because he's 2156 02:32:29.959 --> 02:32:33.559 a he's a local, he can blend. So he said, 2157 02:32:33.600 --> 02:32:36.639 I'm going to go forward. And we were at the 2158 02:32:36.879 --> 02:32:41.959 edge of Afghanistan. So by going forward, he was going 2159 02:32:42.079 --> 02:32:46.920 into Pakistan. And I gave him forty five minutes. I said, okay, 2160 02:32:46.959 --> 02:32:48.799 I can give you forty five minutes. Go see what 2161 02:32:48.920 --> 02:32:52.879 the deal is, get where you can make a phone 2162 02:32:52.920 --> 02:32:55.399 call and see if this is own or not. But 2163 02:32:55.479 --> 02:32:58.040 we got to get out of here. The forty five 2164 02:32:58.040 --> 02:33:01.879 minutes went by, he wasn't there, and we had to 2165 02:33:02.280 --> 02:33:07.319 try to. You know, I've got to do something. By now, 2166 02:33:07.920 --> 02:33:13.840 it's getting ten, ten thirty. Surely everybody knows we're there 2167 02:33:14.040 --> 02:33:18.079 by now. So I know that by now, Taliban, al Qaeda, 2168 02:33:18.239 --> 02:33:23.120 whoever knows. And the question is, you know, how soon 2169 02:33:23.200 --> 02:33:30.159 can they take action? And you know, I wanted to 2170 02:33:31.200 --> 02:33:34.319 pull out and take the Americans with me, because that's 2171 02:33:34.360 --> 02:33:36.959 the sure thing to do, and that's what the agency 2172 02:33:37.000 --> 02:33:39.799 would want me to do. That was the politically correct 2173 02:33:39.879 --> 02:33:43.239 thing to do. But then there's that soldier's creed of 2174 02:33:43.360 --> 02:33:47.239 never leave a guy behind. And I, you know, I 2175 02:33:47.360 --> 02:33:50.239 even asked myself the question is well, is he my guy? 2176 02:33:50.719 --> 02:33:54.120 Was my first responsibility to the Americans, right, And then 2177 02:33:54.200 --> 02:33:58.520 this guy is in Afghan and the ground branch guys 2178 02:33:58.639 --> 02:34:03.399 were were asking me, you know, it's my call. What 2179 02:34:03.520 --> 02:34:05.920 are we going to do? And I talked with them 2180 02:34:05.959 --> 02:34:10.000 a little bit and and we you know, we decided, okay, 2181 02:34:10.680 --> 02:34:14.319 it's no longer a secret that we're here. Let's make 2182 02:34:14.399 --> 02:34:17.280 one effort to get this guy. So we called up 2183 02:34:17.399 --> 02:34:21.120 the two gun trucks, you know, the two pickup trucks. 2184 02:34:21.600 --> 02:34:24.680 So we you know, we had twelve Afghans and with 2185 02:34:24.879 --> 02:34:29.120 each vehicle was one, if not two other ground branch guys. 2186 02:34:30.040 --> 02:34:33.440 So we waited on them. They come rolling in. We 2187 02:34:33.840 --> 02:34:36.319 got in front of them and our thin skinned vehicles 2188 02:34:36.360 --> 02:34:42.600 and off into Pakistan we go looking for this general. 2189 02:34:43.079 --> 02:34:49.159 And hey, we got lucky that after we got inside 2190 02:34:49.200 --> 02:34:52.639 and had gone just a few kilometers, suddenly this uh, 2191 02:34:53.000 --> 02:34:58.159 you know, little cab car comes flying up behind us 2192 02:34:58.399 --> 02:35:01.559 and out jumps the general and he's like crying and 2193 02:35:02.200 --> 02:35:06.959 running up and hugging me. And he had his vehicle 2194 02:35:07.280 --> 02:35:13.120 had stalled near Pakistani checkpoint and he'd been they'd fired 2195 02:35:13.120 --> 02:35:15.079 a couple of times, and then he'd been running for 2196 02:35:15.159 --> 02:35:18.840 the last forty five minutes, so he so he was glad, 2197 02:35:18.920 --> 02:35:22.280 but we recovered him and then, you know, thanks to 2198 02:35:22.360 --> 02:35:27.040 the ground branch guy's skill and the guys that they 2199 02:35:27.079 --> 02:35:30.799 had trained, we you know, mounted up and got back 2200 02:35:30.840 --> 02:35:36.239 out and with no incident. You know, it was it 2201 02:35:36.840 --> 02:35:39.719 was just a very tense time. It had reminded me that, 2202 02:35:40.440 --> 02:35:43.200 you know, when I talked earlier about Afghanistan in two 2203 02:35:43.239 --> 02:35:47.559 thousand and two, I was the tactical leader and that 2204 02:35:47.840 --> 02:35:52.120 Chris guy that I talked about later was the team leader. 2205 02:35:53.040 --> 02:35:55.840 And we got set up out in the middle of 2206 02:35:55.959 --> 02:36:00.600 nowhere for this asset that was going to meet us, 2207 02:36:00.879 --> 02:36:03.280 and he wasn't showing and as a tactical leader, I 2208 02:36:03.399 --> 02:36:06.079 noticed that, hey, we're out in the middle of a valley. 2209 02:36:06.159 --> 02:36:09.319 We're in a bad spot. The people in this little 2210 02:36:09.399 --> 02:36:13.479 outpost there's only like five little buildings together are disappearing. 2211 02:36:13.959 --> 02:36:18.479 If the locals are disappearing, something is getting ready to happen. 2212 02:36:19.760 --> 02:36:22.879 So I told him we've got to pull out. We 2213 02:36:23.639 --> 02:36:27.399 can't stay here, and we left. And after we got 2214 02:36:27.680 --> 02:36:32.120 back that night to our base camp, we found out 2215 02:36:32.159 --> 02:36:35.639 that Sigett had picked up al Qaeda Khom, saying that 2216 02:36:35.760 --> 02:36:39.040 they had part of the ambush in on us and 2217 02:36:39.120 --> 02:36:41.799 we're waiting to put the rest of it in before 2218 02:36:41.840 --> 02:36:46.200 they initiated an ambush. But we ended up, you know, 2219 02:36:46.440 --> 02:36:50.719 walking out, and I just thought it was a weird, 2220 02:36:51.040 --> 02:36:54.760 just uh, the sense of irony that I've been on 2221 02:36:54.879 --> 02:36:57.559 one side and now here I was in the team 2222 02:36:57.639 --> 02:37:01.200 leader job and I like it better being on the 2223 02:37:01.280 --> 02:37:02.079 tactical side. 2224 02:37:04.360 --> 02:37:06.280 Was that sort of like emblematic of your time at 2225 02:37:06.280 --> 02:37:08.879 the agency that they kept you in Afghanistan? 2226 02:37:10.440 --> 02:37:13.399 Yeah? I did. I did three tours. It's supposed to 2227 02:37:13.440 --> 02:37:17.440 be one and not that many people even did one, 2228 02:37:18.520 --> 02:37:25.719 and uh, I did. I did three. The after two 2229 02:37:25.879 --> 02:37:29.520 I would have I would have gotten been able to go, 2230 02:37:30.399 --> 02:37:34.559 but I went home on leave and actually married somebody 2231 02:37:34.639 --> 02:37:41.079 in the agency, and she had never done a war 2232 02:37:41.200 --> 02:37:44.680 zone tour. So you say, well, you know, you've done 2233 02:37:44.719 --> 02:37:46.600 your share of war zone, but she's not done a 2234 02:37:46.680 --> 02:37:48.920 war zone, and she's going to be an a war zone. 2235 02:37:49.319 --> 02:37:52.399 So if you want to be with her, you know, 2236 02:37:52.399 --> 02:37:57.680 because we've been in separate countries, married in separate countries 2237 02:37:57.719 --> 02:38:00.200 for a year, it's going to be a war on 2238 02:38:00.600 --> 02:38:06.479 Iraq or Afghanistan. They you know, I've already got everything 2239 02:38:06.600 --> 02:38:12.399 wired here in Afghanistan. I'll I'll stay in Afghanistan. So 2240 02:38:13.600 --> 02:38:16.840 so she came out and I did my third year. 2241 02:38:18.479 --> 02:38:22.239 It was maybe not the wisest choice I made, because 2242 02:38:22.520 --> 02:38:26.319 I didn't realize that after all those years of war 2243 02:38:26.479 --> 02:38:30.239 zones and classified missions, just back to back to back 2244 02:38:30.319 --> 02:38:33.319 to back, you don't realize what it does to you. 2245 02:38:33.799 --> 02:38:38.840 And I'm now in touch with some of the GRS 2246 02:38:38.920 --> 02:38:45.000 Global Support guys that you know, we're bodyguards, that knew 2247 02:38:45.040 --> 02:38:47.959 me and trusted me in those days. They said, hey, man, 2248 02:38:48.040 --> 02:38:50.520 that that third year, and you know, we all wondered 2249 02:38:50.600 --> 02:38:52.399 when you were going to buy the ticket because like 2250 02:38:52.840 --> 02:38:55.879 you're going out on your own and Kabul and driving 2251 02:38:55.959 --> 02:39:00.079 by yourself right and staying at a compound, and you 2252 02:39:00.200 --> 02:39:03.120 kind of had this thing of nobody can touch you 2253 02:39:03.319 --> 02:39:08.719 and eos. Most people don't survive that right now, but 2254 02:39:08.920 --> 02:39:14.399 I did and it was good. But I you know, 2255 02:39:14.440 --> 02:39:16.520 I was done with war zones. 2256 02:39:16.719 --> 02:39:21.000 I guess I'm gonna I want to ask about kind 2257 02:39:21.000 --> 02:39:23.200 of your transition out of the agency, but I'm going 2258 02:39:23.280 --> 02:39:26.479 to hit you with a couple uh some questions from 2259 02:39:26.520 --> 02:39:29.719 our viewers and let me see if I pull these 2260 02:39:29.840 --> 02:39:31.120 up here real quick. 2261 02:39:32.079 --> 02:39:33.159 I know we have a handful. 2262 02:39:34.600 --> 02:39:39.920 Let's see here, Tom's asked, how does the agency have 2263 02:39:40.079 --> 02:39:44.280 to adapt to penetrate harder targets like like nation state 2264 02:39:44.360 --> 02:39:48.440 actors China and Russia as opposed to our g WAT experiences, 2265 02:39:50.959 --> 02:39:55.600 and what from our g WAT experiences can be learned 2266 02:39:55.639 --> 02:39:57.159 as far as like how we go I guess I 2267 02:39:57.239 --> 02:39:59.200 think this is a little convoluted, But I think what 2268 02:39:59.280 --> 02:40:01.319 he's asking is how can we take our experiences in 2269 02:40:01.399 --> 02:40:05.479 the GWATT. It's sort of like rejigger that to target 2270 02:40:05.600 --> 02:40:08.920 nation states and some of the neuro peer adversaries that 2271 02:40:08.959 --> 02:40:09.920 we're in competition with. 2272 02:40:12.000 --> 02:40:16.000 Well, that one, that's, to be honest, that's probably a 2273 02:40:16.040 --> 02:40:21.040 few levels above my pay grade. I think that my 2274 02:40:21.159 --> 02:40:26.120 opinion a base on what I know, is the the 2275 02:40:26.239 --> 02:40:30.280 intelligence services have had a very hard time in our 2276 02:40:30.399 --> 02:40:36.680 near peer countries. You know, I don't want to go 2277 02:40:36.799 --> 02:40:38.959 too far in what I say, but I think we're 2278 02:40:39.000 --> 02:40:44.079 all aware that we've had some spectacular failures regarding China 2279 02:40:45.319 --> 02:40:53.159 and some other countries, and so the you know, a 2280 02:40:53.239 --> 02:40:56.440 lot of a lot of our thinking about how the 2281 02:40:56.600 --> 02:41:02.000 Intelligence Service goes about it I think has to be refigured, 2282 02:41:02.920 --> 02:41:09.159 and the model that we use in Afghanistan would not work. Now. 2283 02:41:09.600 --> 02:41:13.799 I don't know what the Special Forces, whether first Group 2284 02:41:14.000 --> 02:41:20.000 or tenth Group with Russia planning is for, you know, 2285 02:41:20.159 --> 02:41:25.879 to take their side of the battle to those countries, 2286 02:41:26.520 --> 02:41:31.959 but I don't think it. It can't be the same 2287 02:41:32.120 --> 02:41:36.799 like command structure as it was in Afghanistan. And one 2288 02:41:36.840 --> 02:41:41.000 of the big failures. I was one of the plank 2289 02:41:41.079 --> 02:41:50.520 holders as things started deteriorating with Syria, and so I 2290 02:41:50.840 --> 02:41:56.440 was in the midst of the decisions as that was 2291 02:41:56.600 --> 02:42:00.840 ramping up, and based on my experience, I knew that 2292 02:42:01.200 --> 02:42:05.399 whatever we did in Syria, and I'll draw the correlation 2293 02:42:05.639 --> 02:42:13.200 to to a your peer country that like Afghanistan. While 2294 02:42:13.239 --> 02:42:19.159 the agency might start it and have the legal authorities 2295 02:42:19.319 --> 02:42:24.959 under covert actions to do these initial activities, that it's 2296 02:42:25.120 --> 02:42:31.559 gonna inevitably turn over to fifth Group. So my thinking 2297 02:42:31.879 --> 02:42:36.079 was at the beginning, we need to share with SOCOM 2298 02:42:36.680 --> 02:42:40.680 and sock scent and be tied in so that it's 2299 02:42:40.760 --> 02:42:46.239 a seamless transition from agency to army. And you know, 2300 02:42:46.479 --> 02:42:52.719 but that's where you get into those organizational divides and 2301 02:42:52.920 --> 02:42:55.440 jealousies because they're like no, no, you can't eat, and 2302 02:42:55.600 --> 02:43:01.920 I was like, let's go tell them, and there was 2303 02:43:02.120 --> 02:43:07.879 great reluctance to share much. I went down for my 2304 02:43:10.120 --> 02:43:15.319 boss and I went down to brief General Madis and 2305 02:43:15.440 --> 02:43:17.399 that did not go well at all. 2306 02:43:17.760 --> 02:43:18.319 Oh my god. 2307 02:43:19.239 --> 02:43:21.840 Well it was a general Mattis is a very very 2308 02:43:21.959 --> 02:43:28.399 smart man and at that and you know, we're used 2309 02:43:28.399 --> 02:43:34.559 to doing military briefs, so that's one advantage we have. Well, 2310 02:43:34.600 --> 02:43:37.440 then I came back and a few months later it 2311 02:43:37.600 --> 02:43:40.760 was time to go to SOCOM and we'd had some 2312 02:43:41.200 --> 02:43:46.079 The agency in SOCOM had some difficulties and there was 2313 02:43:46.680 --> 02:43:53.079 a level of distrust there and I was like, so I, 2314 02:43:53.159 --> 02:43:55.639 you know, and by this time, I'm a GS thirteen. 2315 02:43:55.840 --> 02:43:59.000 That's it. I'm a low level GS thirteen because I've 2316 02:43:59.000 --> 02:44:02.079 done all my time, most of my time in war zones. 2317 02:44:02.440 --> 02:44:05.520 I did have one tour somewhere else and I had 2318 02:44:05.600 --> 02:44:13.719 some you know, successes in the terror arena there. But 2319 02:44:16.280 --> 02:44:19.239 so I said, hey, if anybody wants to go with me, 2320 02:44:19.360 --> 02:44:22.920 any flag level person wants to go down to SOCOM, 2321 02:44:23.399 --> 02:44:26.799 you're welcome to. But nobody came. So I walked into 2322 02:44:26.879 --> 02:44:32.159 Admiral Craven's office by myself and it was an ambush. 2323 02:44:32.639 --> 02:44:36.520 He was not happy with Fade and see and one 2324 02:44:36.600 --> 02:44:42.280 of his key staff members had had it. There was 2325 02:44:42.360 --> 02:44:46.680 a big rift. You know. I went there. His briefing 2326 02:44:46.760 --> 02:44:50.600 table was, everybody was there. They introduced themselves, They sit 2327 02:44:50.719 --> 02:44:53.200 me down. Then the door to his office opens. He 2328 02:44:53.319 --> 02:44:57.079 comes in, sits in his chair facing them, says hello. 2329 02:44:57.319 --> 02:45:00.680 Then he spends it and looks at me, goes and 2330 02:45:00.879 --> 02:45:06.319 what do you want? And I was like, well, here 2331 02:45:06.399 --> 02:45:10.360 I am former E seven now talking to uh the 2332 02:45:10.440 --> 02:45:15.520 Socom commander, and uh, you know, I said, hey, sir, 2333 02:45:16.840 --> 02:45:21.200 at heart, I'm an SF guy, you know, and I'm here, 2334 02:45:21.319 --> 02:45:23.559 but I'm gonna tell you the truth, not only about 2335 02:45:23.600 --> 02:45:26.079 what we have and what we're doing, but more importantly 2336 02:45:26.159 --> 02:45:29.520 what we don't have and what we can't do. And uh, 2337 02:45:30.159 --> 02:45:35.760 and we got along. It sort of helped that John 2338 02:45:35.840 --> 02:45:39.879 Mulholland became his deputy and we were friends, and you know, 2339 02:45:39.920 --> 02:45:44.520 I got some assistance from him, and you know, off 2340 02:45:44.559 --> 02:45:47.559 we went. But as that relates to a near peer 2341 02:45:50.959 --> 02:45:55.440 that there has to be a seamless off ramp, and 2342 02:45:56.280 --> 02:46:00.319 you know, my I guess maybe that's changed, uh since 2343 02:46:01.000 --> 02:46:05.200 I left in twenty fifteen. I doubt it, just because 2344 02:46:05.280 --> 02:46:09.120 of legalities and jealousies and everybody's got to protect their turf. 2345 02:46:10.680 --> 02:46:13.639 Joe asks, what is your view of oil and gas 2346 02:46:13.760 --> 02:46:16.399 exploration and Yemen and its impact on the government and 2347 02:46:16.520 --> 02:46:20.200 economy there. Do you have any thoughts about that? 2348 02:46:22.159 --> 02:46:25.440 Hey, Yemen has a lot of oil and it's just 2349 02:46:25.520 --> 02:46:34.559 that the riff between the Shia and Sunni there, we're 2350 02:46:34.639 --> 02:46:40.399 never gonna get that. The French, well, I can't remember 2351 02:46:40.559 --> 02:46:42.840 now the name of the French oil and gas company 2352 02:46:42.879 --> 02:46:46.639 that had the big concessions there back during ninety eight 2353 02:46:46.760 --> 02:46:51.399 ninety nine. It doesn't matter who has the concessions and 2354 02:46:51.719 --> 02:46:58.879 consorting there. They are not going to resolve that issue. 2355 02:47:00.959 --> 02:47:05.399 And it's never going to be stable enough where anybody's 2356 02:47:05.440 --> 02:47:08.159 going to be able to really put the infrastructure that 2357 02:47:08.719 --> 02:47:12.000 needs to be there to be able to take advantage 2358 02:47:12.040 --> 02:47:12.239 of it. 2359 02:47:13.360 --> 02:47:15.920 Mitchell asks, what was the most useful thing you learned 2360 02:47:16.079 --> 02:47:22.280 at Marine Corps boot camp? And I guess he's asking 2361 02:47:22.360 --> 02:47:25.639 that helped in your later role in Jaysack and CIA. 2362 02:47:26.040 --> 02:47:29.319 Please tell us is somehow involved scrubbing toilets with toothbrushes? 2363 02:47:32.319 --> 02:47:40.120 Well, yeah, yeah, well involving toothbrushes. Hey, it's it's shoot, 2364 02:47:40.479 --> 02:47:47.200 move and communicate. It's the basics of never leave a 2365 02:47:47.280 --> 02:47:53.000 buddy behind. It's the belief in your country and in 2366 02:47:53.079 --> 02:47:58.959 your service and devotion to those people around you. It's 2367 02:47:59.040 --> 02:48:04.000 the basics. I felt was really good at the basics. 2368 02:48:04.159 --> 02:48:08.719 And no matter where you go in Jason Cia, whatever 2369 02:48:09.159 --> 02:48:12.799 the most complicated operation you're doing, even you know, I've 2370 02:48:14.600 --> 02:48:19.719 you know, I've done operations against top tier, how kind 2371 02:48:19.760 --> 02:48:26.520 of leaders, it's still going back to the basics, taking 2372 02:48:26.600 --> 02:48:28.600 care of people, shoot, move, communicate. 2373 02:48:31.520 --> 02:48:34.239 It's sort of maybe an open ended question, but Isaac 2374 02:48:34.360 --> 02:48:36.920 asks if you have an opinion about what we've heard 2375 02:48:36.959 --> 02:48:39.079 about in the press about the Havana syndrome. 2376 02:48:41.520 --> 02:48:44.719 Yeah, I don't know about that. You know, when I 2377 02:48:44.840 --> 02:48:54.440 first heard it, I thought it was plausible. It's also 2378 02:48:54.600 --> 02:49:02.440 plausible to me that it could be another or a 2379 02:49:02.559 --> 02:49:07.399 manifestation of anxieties. You know, this is our society today 2380 02:49:07.879 --> 02:49:10.360 is walking around with a lot of anxieties. And when 2381 02:49:10.360 --> 02:49:16.840 you're operating in certain countries and you're undercover, particularly if 2382 02:49:16.879 --> 02:49:23.239 there's hard targets coming after you, that that can weigh 2383 02:49:23.319 --> 02:49:26.040 on you and change you. But but to be honest, 2384 02:49:26.159 --> 02:49:30.520 I do not have enough information and I don't I 2385 02:49:30.600 --> 02:49:34.520 think the medical community is still pretty divided on whether 2386 02:49:35.159 --> 02:49:39.879 you know how on the you know the reality of 2387 02:49:40.000 --> 02:49:43.920 that and the impact of it. I would believe if 2388 02:49:44.000 --> 02:49:47.760 you showed me data, I would believe either way. Certainly. 2389 02:49:49.200 --> 02:49:53.879 I don't put it past some countries to use a 2390 02:49:54.239 --> 02:49:55.840 weapon like that against US. 2391 02:49:57.479 --> 02:50:00.600 JO just asks regarding Tora Bora, would you say Ben 2392 02:50:00.680 --> 02:50:03.559 Laden and al Qaeda had a good understanding of sand 2393 02:50:03.840 --> 02:50:05.040 intercept capabilities? 2394 02:50:12.319 --> 02:50:16.079 I didn't. I say that al Qaeda had a good 2395 02:50:16.319 --> 02:50:25.479 understanding of it. We we were they were intercepting communications 2396 02:50:25.760 --> 02:50:30.879 coming out of Tora Bora and identified Ben Lauden's voice 2397 02:50:31.079 --> 02:50:36.040 on that at certain points, and sometime between six and 2398 02:50:36.200 --> 02:50:40.440 nine December, they stopped getting his voice, So that's when 2399 02:50:40.559 --> 02:50:45.239 we know that he sometime in that timeframe, probably uh 2400 02:50:45.719 --> 02:50:49.000 left to Bora, which happens to be about the night 2401 02:50:49.040 --> 02:50:51.360 they told us to that we had to get off 2402 02:50:51.399 --> 02:50:51.760 our op. 2403 02:50:53.440 --> 02:50:56.280 Paul asks, do you know if any Afghans who worked 2404 02:50:56.280 --> 02:50:59.239 with early on were able to get out out of Afghanistan? 2405 02:50:59.280 --> 02:51:01.719 I guess when they collapsed. I'm guessing it's hard to 2406 02:51:01.760 --> 02:51:04.079 prove they worked with us if they worked with the agency. 2407 02:51:06.680 --> 02:51:13.239 Uh, there's uh, some did, some didn't. There are some 2408 02:51:13.440 --> 02:51:17.799 people you know that I know of that are still 2409 02:51:17.840 --> 02:51:23.000 there Uh, there's a man, one of the linguists that 2410 02:51:23.040 --> 02:51:32.000 I worked with U named Rousseaul is active in trying 2411 02:51:32.040 --> 02:51:34.280 to help. You know, there's various groups and there's a 2412 02:51:34.280 --> 02:51:36.760 lot of SF guys that help get people out, but 2413 02:51:36.879 --> 02:51:41.479 there are guys that are stuck and it's not to me, 2414 02:51:42.040 --> 02:51:45.680 just them, but they're family members. There's one person I 2415 02:51:45.799 --> 02:51:49.680 know that Hey, they're coming around now to my brother 2416 02:51:50.040 --> 02:51:54.159 and if you know, it's either joined or get killed. 2417 02:51:54.319 --> 02:51:58.440 And if they ever find out that I'm in America, 2418 02:51:59.399 --> 02:52:04.799 he's dead. So it's uh, there's a lot. There are 2419 02:52:04.879 --> 02:52:08.440 so many people that are left, and probably a lot 2420 02:52:08.479 --> 02:52:11.000 of agency affiliated people. 2421 02:52:12.680 --> 02:52:15.040 Joe's I think you kind of answered this question, but 2422 02:52:15.159 --> 02:52:17.360 he says, do you have a lot of exposure working 2423 02:52:17.399 --> 02:52:21.760 with sada's or TFO during the AFO OPB mission sets. 2424 02:52:21.799 --> 02:52:23.680 I think you've sort of answered that question. 2425 02:52:24.959 --> 02:52:30.360 Yeah, I don't. I the sada's, I coordinated with some 2426 02:52:30.559 --> 02:52:35.479 of them, like mostly doing peacetime stuff in Kuwait and 2427 02:52:35.639 --> 02:52:40.440 some of the other places, but not I didn't really 2428 02:52:40.520 --> 02:52:43.840 work with them in the UH in the combat phase. 2429 02:52:44.399 --> 02:52:50.319 I pretty much worked with agency people in most of that. UH. 2430 02:52:50.719 --> 02:52:53.559 Don asks with all of your experience working by with 2431 02:52:53.760 --> 02:52:57.920 and through the State Department. Do you have any experience 2432 02:52:58.120 --> 02:53:01.719 or thoughts working with the Diplomatic Security Service or MSD. 2433 02:53:03.479 --> 02:53:07.280 Hey, A lot of great guys worked there. There are 2434 02:53:08.920 --> 02:53:15.280 plenty of guys. There's rangers, Delta marines, every branch is 2435 02:53:15.360 --> 02:53:18.399 service that some of them leave, you know, mid career 2436 02:53:19.159 --> 02:53:24.959 and come to the Diplomatic Security Service. A guy that 2437 02:53:25.079 --> 02:53:29.319 I trained and trained me in martial arts used to 2438 02:53:29.399 --> 02:53:33.319 be their head of their martial arts program, Tony Mafnis. 2439 02:53:33.760 --> 02:53:36.000 I don't know if you guy's ever heard of him, 2440 02:53:36.040 --> 02:53:40.879 but that's a that's that's the greatest martial art artists 2441 02:53:40.920 --> 02:53:45.680 I've ever known or seen, and he ran the DS 2442 02:53:45.840 --> 02:53:49.159 program for a long time. So yeah, there's a lot, 2443 02:53:49.239 --> 02:53:51.360 there's a lot of good guys there, but yeah, there's 2444 02:53:51.440 --> 02:53:58.079 some that that are inexperienced. In Afghanistan, they were experienced, 2445 02:53:58.159 --> 02:54:05.479 but in places in some other places that were not hostile. 2446 02:54:06.159 --> 02:54:09.120 You know. It's people that have more of an admin 2447 02:54:09.440 --> 02:54:17.000 police type background, so they're maybe not as suited in 2448 02:54:17.159 --> 02:54:22.959 some respects to deal with no hostile environment. Yeah. 2449 02:54:23.040 --> 02:54:25.120 I actually have a quick question before we move on 2450 02:54:25.200 --> 02:54:29.280 to sort of your transition out of governmental service. I've 2451 02:54:29.319 --> 02:54:32.840 been working on this article lately with my colleague Sean 2452 02:54:32.959 --> 02:54:37.920 Naylor for the High Side that we've learned that the 2453 02:54:38.040 --> 02:54:40.959 next commander of Delta is actually going to be a 2454 02:54:41.280 --> 02:54:44.920 aviation guy who comes from Eco Squadron. I was wondered 2455 02:54:44.920 --> 02:54:46.799 if you had any thoughts of that as somebody who 2456 02:54:46.840 --> 02:54:49.840 worked in this community and closely with the community about 2457 02:54:49.920 --> 02:54:52.319 rather than somebody who came from, you know, the traditional 2458 02:54:52.760 --> 02:54:56.000 squadron commander position and working their way up about an 2459 02:54:56.040 --> 02:54:58.239 aviation guy sort of landing in that billet. 2460 02:54:59.479 --> 02:55:04.600 Hey, you know, I think it's time Delta's changed a lot. 2461 02:55:05.520 --> 02:55:08.680 I actually, in the serious stuff, went back to the 2462 02:55:08.760 --> 02:55:15.600 Delta compound to do a briefing there in the run 2463 02:55:15.719 --> 02:55:19.520 up to Syria, and you know, when I left, it 2464 02:55:19.639 --> 02:55:24.399 was three squadrons. I came back and it was like 2465 02:55:24.840 --> 02:55:29.200 it doubled in size. I think there was we're at 2466 02:55:29.479 --> 02:55:33.040 h or whatever, Brazilian squadrons, all bunch of different missions, 2467 02:55:33.680 --> 02:55:39.440 and it had grown. And so with that, I believe 2468 02:55:39.639 --> 02:55:43.559 that you know, the guys that have to develop the 2469 02:55:43.639 --> 02:55:47.079 operational plan on the ground, there will still be plenty 2470 02:55:47.120 --> 02:55:50.280 of people that can do that, But to run that 2471 02:55:50.479 --> 02:55:57.280 behemoth now, I think that anybody that has the proper 2472 02:55:57.399 --> 02:56:03.200 mentality and training and experience, and joint environment is very 2473 02:56:03.600 --> 02:56:07.040 capable of doing that. So I don't I don't think 2474 02:56:07.079 --> 02:56:08.040 that they'll miss a step. 2475 02:56:09.440 --> 02:56:12.239 So talk to us. I mean, I believe you told 2476 02:56:12.239 --> 02:56:15.120 me you spent about fifteen years in the agency before retiring. 2477 02:56:15.239 --> 02:56:16.639 If you could tell us a little bit about your 2478 02:56:16.680 --> 02:56:20.000 transition to back to civilian life after all these years 2479 02:56:20.000 --> 02:56:22.760 and a life of working, you know, sort of in 2480 02:56:22.840 --> 02:56:23.799 the shadows. 2481 02:56:26.159 --> 02:56:36.040 The agency. I entered this field. I again, I was 2482 02:56:36.079 --> 02:56:39.520 a young guy. I thought my job was to give 2483 02:56:39.600 --> 02:56:43.959 my life for my country and never planned on surviving 2484 02:56:44.000 --> 02:56:52.760 all that stuff and getting old, getting older. I pushed 2485 02:56:53.000 --> 02:57:00.200 hard and I had that just some things in the 2486 02:57:00.239 --> 02:57:06.200 agency started, you know, going bothering me somewhat. I had 2487 02:57:06.280 --> 02:57:13.520 a successful operation against a senior Al Qaida person that 2488 02:57:13.799 --> 02:57:16.000 sort of put me in the middle of the political 2489 02:57:16.799 --> 02:57:22.840 aspect and at more senior levels. And I started seeing 2490 02:57:23.040 --> 02:57:25.120 under the tent, you know that a lot of some 2491 02:57:25.239 --> 02:57:29.399 of the politics involved in the decision making process and 2492 02:57:30.040 --> 02:57:33.360 some stuff with the National Security Council, and you know, 2493 02:57:33.479 --> 02:57:37.799 this whole thing about hey, let's not tell so coom stuff. 2494 02:57:40.399 --> 02:57:44.639 I you know, I started becoming like, hey, I'm this 2495 02:57:45.120 --> 02:57:50.200 is bothering me, and I think I had And then 2496 02:57:50.319 --> 02:57:54.920 the wife that I married there in the agency decided 2497 02:57:55.000 --> 02:58:00.760 to move on and do something different. So, you know, 2498 02:58:00.879 --> 02:58:05.479 I started really wondering, like what am I doing here? 2499 02:58:08.280 --> 02:58:11.639 I felt that the agency, a lot of the people 2500 02:58:12.600 --> 02:58:15.479 in the side of the agency I was in, where 2501 02:58:17.559 --> 02:58:24.239 fairly liberal, and that you know, I was viewed somewhat different. 2502 02:58:24.399 --> 02:58:26.600 You know, I don't think I was an old cojure yet, 2503 02:58:26.799 --> 02:58:34.840 but it just started getting where. I started like, I 2504 02:58:34.920 --> 02:58:39.040 don't like the politics in this. And then in my 2505 02:58:39.559 --> 02:58:45.680 personal life, I started I'd been on all these offensive things. 2506 02:58:45.760 --> 02:58:48.440 It's how do we track down this guy? How do 2507 02:58:48.559 --> 02:58:53.719 I get this guy? I had a few times where 2508 02:58:53.760 --> 02:58:57.000 I did something I felt was really good, like getting 2509 02:58:57.040 --> 02:59:00.399 a family out of a denied country. Once you know 2510 02:59:00.840 --> 02:59:07.959 that was that was a good feeling, and I, you know, 2511 02:59:08.040 --> 02:59:10.520 I started searching for and there was a spiritual search 2512 02:59:10.600 --> 02:59:19.239 for me. I'd i'd been a believer in God and Christian, 2513 02:59:20.319 --> 02:59:23.200 but I sure heck wouldn't have been accused of that 2514 02:59:23.360 --> 02:59:26.559 of anybody you me. In a lot of my military 2515 02:59:26.719 --> 02:59:31.200 time and and and maybe agency time, and you know this, 2516 02:59:31.760 --> 02:59:35.399 I started I started having medical issues. I've been under 2517 02:59:36.520 --> 02:59:41.760 extreme stress in some things that we haven't talked about, 2518 02:59:42.520 --> 02:59:46.360 probably shouldn't talk about, and for so many years and 2519 02:59:46.479 --> 02:59:52.760 so long that I started having heart things, and yeah, 2520 02:59:53.159 --> 02:59:59.840 I started thinking this isn't for me. And right when 2521 03:00:00.000 --> 03:00:05.120 my career, after some pretty spectacular successes, should have been 2522 03:00:05.159 --> 03:00:07.760 taken off, I was like, I got it. I've got 2523 03:00:07.840 --> 03:00:12.200 to bail on this. And I resigned in twenty fifteen 2524 03:00:12.280 --> 03:00:16.360 after I think I was eleven as a staff officer 2525 03:00:16.680 --> 03:00:20.639 and two as a detail ee. But I've been working 2526 03:00:20.680 --> 03:00:26.879 on it off with the agency for yeah, fifteen sixteen years. 2527 03:00:27.719 --> 03:00:32.079 And so you sort of reconnected or made stronger connections 2528 03:00:32.159 --> 03:00:37.159 with your with your faith. Yeah, got remarried. 2529 03:00:39.239 --> 03:00:44.920 No, I actually with my faith, you know. I hope 2530 03:00:44.959 --> 03:00:49.959 I don't turn it off, but I had again. I 2531 03:00:50.079 --> 03:00:54.520 decided I needed to be not a believer but a follower. 2532 03:00:55.239 --> 03:00:59.040 I needed to be somebody that made what I who 2533 03:00:59.120 --> 03:01:01.280 I thought it was on the inside and what I 2534 03:01:01.399 --> 03:01:06.159 believe be who I am, how I speak and on 2535 03:01:06.280 --> 03:01:10.920 the outside, because I was one thing that I felt 2536 03:01:10.959 --> 03:01:12.920 I needed to be to get the job done on 2537 03:01:13.040 --> 03:01:15.280 the outside, and I thought I was something different. The 2538 03:01:15.440 --> 03:01:18.440 truth is, you are who you are on the outside. 2539 03:01:18.920 --> 03:01:21.399 Not what you like to think you are on your inside. 2540 03:01:22.520 --> 03:01:30.079 So I did reconnect with my faith. I decided I 2541 03:01:30.559 --> 03:01:36.200 probably wasn't the most qualified person to look for romantic entanglements. 2542 03:01:36.600 --> 03:01:39.280 All the buddyes, my buddies in the military say hey, Gary, 2543 03:01:39.920 --> 03:01:45.040 every ten or fifteen years, don't ever get married again. 2544 03:01:45.159 --> 03:01:47.479 Just every ten or fifteen years, give all your shit 2545 03:01:47.559 --> 03:01:49.600 to some woman and all your money. 2546 03:01:49.799 --> 03:01:56.159 And don't go through that whole just pay palbum so 2547 03:01:57.319 --> 03:01:58.239 and you know, it's a. 2548 03:01:58.440 --> 03:02:04.239 Part of my change and my faith. I gave up 2549 03:02:04.319 --> 03:02:06.559 on all that. And then I was at a church 2550 03:02:06.920 --> 03:02:14.000 in McLean and you know, met somebody there that was 2551 03:02:15.040 --> 03:02:16.920 get I get a God's send, you know, to me, 2552 03:02:17.040 --> 03:02:20.479 I give it up. I was like, okay, I'm not 2553 03:02:20.639 --> 03:02:25.719 looking anymore. And Kimberly Scott walked into my life and 2554 03:02:26.719 --> 03:02:30.159 so we've been together like eight years. You know. It's 2555 03:02:30.200 --> 03:02:33.239 funny because I had just rolled back my cover in 2556 03:02:33.360 --> 03:02:37.719 preparation to leave the agency, and we agreed to have 2557 03:02:37.959 --> 03:02:42.479 coffee to talk about church. So I met her for 2558 03:02:42.600 --> 03:02:45.719 this coffee and she said one of her first questions, 2559 03:02:45.760 --> 03:02:47.959 well what do you do? And I said, well, you're 2560 03:02:48.040 --> 03:02:51.840 actually the first person I can tell but I work 2561 03:02:51.879 --> 03:02:55.120 in the CIA. She goes, oh, you know, she was 2562 03:02:55.159 --> 03:02:59.079 a very she is a very sweet and innocent person, 2563 03:03:00.120 --> 03:03:02.760 besides what little bit of corruption I've been able to achieve. 2564 03:03:04.399 --> 03:03:07.479 And and she said, oh, what I said, Well, I 2565 03:03:07.639 --> 03:03:11.239 actually was a Marine officer to start off, but then 2566 03:03:11.920 --> 03:03:15.079 I resigned and I enlisted in Special Forces and then 2567 03:03:15.120 --> 03:03:17.479 I did this thing that they call the Delta Force 2568 03:03:17.559 --> 03:03:21.680 for a while, and then I went to the CIA, 2569 03:03:22.600 --> 03:03:27.120 and I'm in the CIA, she said. Oh. And she 2570 03:03:27.239 --> 03:03:30.959 goes back to school and some friends of her she 2571 03:03:31.319 --> 03:03:33.840 had a husband, a late husband who had passed away 2572 03:03:33.840 --> 03:03:40.040 a few years before of an illness, and they'd been 2573 03:03:40.079 --> 03:03:43.879 trying to set her up with agency guys because this 2574 03:03:44.959 --> 03:03:47.840 teacher that she worked with, her husband was a senior 2575 03:03:47.879 --> 03:03:52.239 guy in the agency, and they were trying to set 2576 03:03:52.239 --> 03:03:54.559 her up. She says, No, there's a guy at my 2577 03:03:54.719 --> 03:03:57.319 church and I think I'm going to start going out 2578 03:03:57.360 --> 03:03:59.799 with him. And they, oh, oh, tell me about him, 2579 03:03:59.799 --> 03:04:02.639 Tell about him. And it happened to be that this 2580 03:04:02.799 --> 03:04:07.559 woman's husband had been a ranger and before the agency. 2581 03:04:07.879 --> 03:04:10.959 She said, oh, well, he's his name is Gary. He 2582 03:04:11.600 --> 03:04:14.360 was Marine, then he was Special Forces, then he was 2583 03:04:14.440 --> 03:04:18.520 Delta Force, and now he's CIA. And then the woman 2584 03:04:18.600 --> 03:04:20.360 looked at her and laughed and shook her head and 2585 03:04:20.719 --> 03:04:23.159 pat her on the back and said, oh, honey, uh, 2586 03:04:24.079 --> 03:04:27.079 there's nobody just done all that stuff. That's what that's 2587 03:04:27.799 --> 03:04:30.159 that's the kind of thing that guys tell girls when 2588 03:04:30.159 --> 03:04:33.600 they want to get very friendly with them. But that 2589 03:04:33.920 --> 03:04:36.440 that's there's no way, she said, but he seems so 2590 03:04:36.600 --> 03:04:40.799 sincere and I met him at church. She said, Nah, impossible, 2591 03:04:40.840 --> 03:04:42.760 but give me his name and and I'll have my 2592 03:04:42.879 --> 03:04:47.799 husband check him out. So she gave him my name 2593 03:04:48.639 --> 03:04:51.280 and she said, you know, I found out much later 2594 03:04:51.760 --> 03:04:54.479 that a couple of days later that the lady came 2595 03:04:54.559 --> 03:04:57.440 back to her and said, oh my god, she said, 2596 03:04:57.840 --> 03:05:00.760 not only is that true, there's way more than that. 2597 03:05:01.360 --> 03:05:04.040 He's you know, he's he's done all that and there's 2598 03:05:04.079 --> 03:05:04.799 a few things. 2599 03:05:05.079 --> 03:05:07.360 So you passed the smell test. 2600 03:05:08.280 --> 03:05:10.959 I passed that. They did give a little bit extra report. 2601 03:05:11.040 --> 03:05:14.360 They said, he's known as a real good guy, but 2602 03:05:14.479 --> 03:05:18.840 he's not much of a rule follower, but he never lies, 2603 03:05:19.120 --> 03:05:21.600 so you know when they when he gets caught, he'll 2604 03:05:22.000 --> 03:05:26.840 he'll tell him what he did. But so I I 2605 03:05:27.079 --> 03:05:28.879 guess I passed that test. 2606 03:05:29.959 --> 03:05:33.920 And so how has quote unquote retirement been been going 2607 03:05:34.040 --> 03:05:35.920 for you and settling into this new life. 2608 03:05:38.040 --> 03:05:40.000 Well, you know, I think maybe all of us can 2609 03:05:40.680 --> 03:05:45.159 relate to that. Right. It's way way tougher than I thought. 2610 03:05:46.200 --> 03:05:49.639 And and I I like, even in the agency, I 2611 03:05:49.879 --> 03:05:53.959 got used to you know, we're we're government, and I 2612 03:05:54.079 --> 03:05:55.719 want to do good things. And when I was in 2613 03:05:55.799 --> 03:05:58.959 the government, if I write a proposal and get it 2614 03:05:59.079 --> 03:06:03.479 a proposal and convince people to approve the proposal, I 2615 03:06:03.559 --> 03:06:06.479 get money, Like my last year in Afghanistan one point 2616 03:06:06.600 --> 03:06:10.399 whatever million dollars to set up this program. It was 2617 03:06:10.440 --> 03:06:15.040 a very successful program. It was great. So I thought, Okay, 2618 03:06:15.639 --> 03:06:19.840 I'm going to apply my skills to business and do that. Well, 2619 03:06:19.879 --> 03:06:23.120 guess what, there's not all a bunch of people lining 2620 03:06:23.239 --> 03:06:28.479 up to give me millions of dollars to start business. 2621 03:06:29.319 --> 03:06:32.799 And at first I think I got pushed with you know, 2622 03:06:33.120 --> 03:06:36.959 by that time, for whatever other reasons, I knew some 2623 03:06:37.840 --> 03:06:40.120 people in places and they were hooking me up with 2624 03:06:40.239 --> 03:06:43.760 security gigs, and so I was trying to set up 2625 03:06:43.840 --> 03:06:48.719 a security and I would hire seals and sf guys. 2626 03:06:49.440 --> 03:06:53.000 But I never made a success of it because by 2627 03:06:53.040 --> 03:06:55.360 the time you pay the guys to do the work. 2628 03:06:55.479 --> 03:06:57.760 There never was enough for me, so I couldn't live 2629 03:06:57.840 --> 03:07:01.559 off the money. One day I did an event for 2630 03:07:01.680 --> 03:07:06.319 women CEOs when I trained them in anti assault, anti abduction, 2631 03:07:06.639 --> 03:07:14.280 escape from restraints, situational awareness. During that, one of the 2632 03:07:15.120 --> 03:07:17.799 women came up and said, if I knew this before, 2633 03:07:17.879 --> 03:07:21.799 I wouldn't have got stabbed and raped a few years ago. 2634 03:07:23.239 --> 03:07:27.680 And I just liked that. I like giving to people. 2635 03:07:28.360 --> 03:07:31.040 It made me feel that the thirty five years that 2636 03:07:31.120 --> 03:07:36.040 I spent doing the things that I did in hostile environments, 2637 03:07:36.079 --> 03:07:43.079 living under cover, that there were things I could teach 2638 03:07:43.200 --> 03:07:48.639 people that improve every person's life so they can take 2639 03:07:48.719 --> 03:07:51.840 care of themselves, so they can have peace of mind. 2640 03:07:52.479 --> 03:07:57.280 And these days, you know, look how our society is 2641 03:07:57.360 --> 03:08:02.719 devolving and violences right around the corner from any of us, 2642 03:08:03.440 --> 03:08:06.239 and people are increasingly less able to take care of it. 2643 03:08:06.319 --> 03:08:09.280 So I kind of view it as a mission too, 2644 03:08:10.399 --> 03:08:13.559 you know, equip people to be able to take care 2645 03:08:13.600 --> 03:08:17.120 of themselves, just follow them the same principles and habits 2646 03:08:17.239 --> 03:08:21.760 that many of us learn to live with throughout our careers. 2647 03:08:22.639 --> 03:08:25.559 You're still doing, do you? Has this become something you 2648 03:08:25.639 --> 03:08:29.040 do regularly? These seminars and things like this. 2649 03:08:30.120 --> 03:08:30.200 I. 2650 03:08:31.719 --> 03:08:35.360 Have in the past tended to work for higher net 2651 03:08:35.440 --> 03:08:41.719 worth families and people that have like daughters or children 2652 03:08:41.879 --> 03:08:45.479 going abroad to study. I started, I did do some 2653 03:08:46.079 --> 03:08:52.239 I've been doing some events with organizations and I'm getting 2654 03:08:52.319 --> 03:08:59.159 ready to launch an online course called the Prudent Parenting Course. 2655 03:08:59.239 --> 03:09:04.319 And that's too just take parents and guide them through 2656 03:09:06.079 --> 03:09:09.879 how to properly mentor your children so that they are 2657 03:09:10.079 --> 03:09:17.079 self reliant for their security and safety. It's a pretty 2658 03:09:17.159 --> 03:09:21.840 extensive course and I've spent probably two years putting that together. 2659 03:09:22.559 --> 03:09:25.159 And where can people find you on the internet if 2660 03:09:25.159 --> 03:09:27.399 they want to hire you to come speak to their 2661 03:09:27.479 --> 03:09:29.680 group or enroll in one of these courses. 2662 03:09:31.479 --> 03:09:36.920 Well, thanks for asking. My website is Garyharrington dot net 2663 03:09:37.719 --> 03:09:42.319 and I'm on Facebook is Gary Harrington and on Instagram 2664 03:09:42.520 --> 03:09:45.680 is the real Gary Harrington. And have a YouTube channel 2665 03:09:46.239 --> 03:09:46.719 as well. 2666 03:09:48.200 --> 03:09:50.719 And Gary, I think throughout this interview and I'm sorry 2667 03:09:50.799 --> 03:09:52.760 I kept you way longer than I thought we would. 2668 03:09:52.799 --> 03:09:55.799 This has been like over three hours, but I realized 2669 03:09:55.840 --> 03:09:58.440 we could easily do two entire episodes with you in 2670 03:09:58.559 --> 03:10:01.799 all these stories and insights you have are amazing and 2671 03:10:02.040 --> 03:10:03.959 I hope you'll take me up on the offer sometime 2672 03:10:04.000 --> 03:10:05.719 when you're coming through New York to come and join 2673 03:10:05.799 --> 03:10:08.000 us in the studio sometimes because this has been like 2674 03:10:08.120 --> 03:10:09.799 really enlightening and enjoyable. 2675 03:10:10.879 --> 03:10:13.399 Sure, man, we'll talk about coasts some other time. And 2676 03:10:14.360 --> 03:10:18.360 the uh, the killing of the CIA officers there. 2677 03:10:18.959 --> 03:10:21.559 Absolutely, I mean we've yeah, we've talked to people who 2678 03:10:21.600 --> 03:10:23.559 are involved in that, and I would love to hear 2679 03:10:23.639 --> 03:10:27.239 more from from you on it as well. Yeah, man, 2680 03:10:27.280 --> 03:10:30.479 thank you so much. Gary, h Hey, thank you. 2681 03:10:30.680 --> 03:10:34.319 I really appreciate the opportunity and uh again, thanks a 2682 03:10:34.399 --> 03:10:35.399 lot for doing what you're doing. 2683 03:10:35.959 --> 03:10:39.559 Absolutely man, And and for the viewers out there, thank 2684 03:10:39.600 --> 03:10:41.520 you for joining us tonight. And we will be back 2685 03:10:41.600 --> 03:10:46.719 on Friday with Dallas Alexander, who's a Canadian JTF two sniper. 2686 03:10:47.639 --> 03:10:50.920 Excited to have him on the show. If you want 2687 03:10:50.920 --> 03:10:53.639 to find Gary, we'll have his links down the description 2688 03:10:53.959 --> 03:10:57.680 so you find all his information down there. And Gary, 2689 03:10:57.760 --> 03:10:58.959 we'll have to do it again sometime. 2690 03:10:59.040 --> 03:11:02.360 Man. Thank you, all right, thanks a loud, thanks. 2691 03:11:02.200 --> 03:11:04.479 For your time and all right, so we'll see all 2692 03:11:04.520 --> 03:11:09.079 you guys on Friday. Take care out there. Hey, guys, 2693 03:11:09.159 --> 03:11:10.680 it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for 2694 03:11:10.719 --> 03:11:12.959 a moment about how you can support the show. If 2695 03:11:13.000 --> 03:11:15.600 you've been watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to 2696 03:11:15.600 --> 03:11:17.799 get a little bit more involved and help us continue 2697 03:11:17.840 --> 03:11:20.559 to do this. You can check out our Patreon. It 2698 03:11:20.760 --> 03:11:25.200 is patreon dot com slash the Teamhouse, and for five 2699 03:11:25.280 --> 03:11:27.639 dollars a month you can get access to all of 2700 03:11:27.719 --> 03:11:31.680 these episodes of The Teamhouse ad free. The same goes 2701 03:11:31.760 --> 03:11:35.399 with our affiliated podcast eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason 2702 03:11:35.479 --> 03:11:38.840 Lyons mcmulroy that one, you will also get all of 2703 03:11:38.879 --> 03:11:43.440 those episodes add free. And you support the channel and 2704 03:11:43.520 --> 03:11:46.319 the show, and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members 2705 03:11:46.399 --> 03:11:51.040 are literally what has helped this company, this small business survive, 2706 03:11:52.040 --> 03:11:55.719 especially during our early years, and you are what continues 2707 03:11:55.799 --> 03:11:58.799 to help this thing going even as we navigate the 2708 03:11:59.360 --> 03:12:03.000 turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So we really appreciate all 2709 03:12:03.040 --> 03:12:05.520 of you guys. There's going to be a link down 2710 03:12:05.520 --> 03:12:09.040 in the description to that Patreon page, and there is 2711 03:12:09.120 --> 03:12:11.559 also going to be a link to our new merch shop, 2712 03:12:12.120 --> 03:12:13.760 So if you guys want to go and get some 2713 03:12:13.840 --> 03:12:18.040 Team House merchandise, we got stickers and we also have patches, 2714 03:12:18.360 --> 03:12:21.040 and I should mention if you sign up for Patreon 2715 03:12:21.200 --> 03:12:23.000 at ten dollars a month, we will mail you this 2716 03:12:23.159 --> 03:12:28.000 patch as well, so we really appreciate that. But they're 2717 03:12:28.040 --> 03:12:31.360 also for sale on the merch Shop and additionally they 2718 03:12:31.479 --> 03:12:35.200 got t shirts up there, water bottles, a tote bag, 2719 03:12:35.719 --> 03:12:39.319 coffee mugs, all that good stuff, so please go and 2720 03:12:39.399 --> 03:12:42.639 check them out and support the show. We really appreciate it, guys. 2721 03:12:42.760 --> 03:12:43.040 Thank you,