Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder.
Speaker 4: I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: We're joined today by Darren Shaefer here to talk about
the podcast The Cooper Vortex and school us on everything
dB Goopert.
Speaker 2: We're back with the second part of our conversation with
Darren Shaeffer is the podcaster behind the dB Cooper Vortex.
This is a continuation of the conversation we had with
Darren last week, so it probably makes more sense, but
you listen to our discussion with Darren last week, which
is The Cooper Vortex Part three, and then this continuation
picks up with Kristin asking the question is the dB
Cooper case, now more than fifty years old, still solvable?
As always, we have new episodes every Monday, bonus episodes
which are classic episodes every Thursday here on Mind Over Murder.
Hope you'll take a few minutes to give us a
five star kind review on your favorite podcast platform, and
thanks for listening. Now back to dB Cooper, the Cooper
Vortex and Darren Schaefer.
Speaker 4: What is it going to take to solve the case?
Do you think it's solvable at this point? I know
that there's been recent discussion about the tie.
Speaker 5: What can we get off the tie?
Speaker 4: Is it going to take forensic genetic genealogy, Is it
going to take DNA? What is it going to take?
Or is it too called? Too long, we're not going
to find out who dB Cooper is? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 5: Okay, I have a few answers for that, because there
were a few questions baked into that. Good Sorry, Let's
start with what will it take to solve this case?
I asked that on my show, And I don't know
if it's not a confession at this point in time,
because we probably have dozens of confessions that are worthy
of investigation. I think I saw an FBI file that
said they've had over nine hundred people confess to this crime.
When I spoke to Larry Carr, who was a case
agent the two thousands, two thousands, he said, during his
time as case agent, there were two different people that
went into FBI offices to confess to the crime. And
that's quite a step further than I'm at the bar
with my buddy and hey, by the way, you know
that dB Cooper thing that was me, wasn't that awesome?
I'm pretty cool. No, this is me going into an
FBI office to confess to a crime I know I
did not commit, which is crazy. So we would need
some sort of physical evidence at this point in time,
which seems very unlikely to come by if you stumbled across.
You're going through your great uncle's stuff who had just
passed away. And here's a ticket stub from Northwest Orian Airlines.
Here's the remnants of an old military bailout rig and
a twenty dollars bill from nineteen sixty nine. Boy, is
that compelling evidence right there. We haven't seen any of
that at this point in time. That would go a
long way towards solving the case. Even though I just
totally poop pooed confessions. If there was a confession from
a relative, I had to wait till my great uncle
passed away before I could tell the story that he
told me. It have to be very convincing, and then
we'd take a look at it as the dB Cooper
community or the FBI and maybe verify some of those details.
But outside of a plane ticket, a twenty dollars bill,
or if he happened to keep that bailout rig a
confession is going to be pretty tough forensic DNA. Oh,
I'm sorry, go ahead, Bill.
Speaker 2: And I don't think any of us should lose sight
of this. We hear this with the Zodiac and certainly
with the dB Cooper case. It isn't like Dbe Cooper
is going to be clapped in irons because if let's
say he was in his forties and that's fifty four
years ago, he himself is likely deceased by this point.
Speaker 5: People that drank and smoked and lived dangerously in nineteen
seventy one in their forties. Those folks aren't alive today.
Best case scenario, Cooper is ninety three years old. More
than likely he's over one hundred years old at this
point in time. I didn't know a lot of people
that chain smoked in the nineteen seventies that are still
hanging out today.
Speaker 2: And one of those activities would have included jumping out
of an airplane at close to two hundred miles an
hour in the dark into some pretty wild country in
terms of the places that he may have landed in
the northwest part of the United States. So it seems
like there's a lot of risky behavior going on there
for sure.
Speaker 5: Also, his age is a weird thing. If I just
explained this crime to you and then said, guess how
old the guy was, you'd say twenty five, you'd say
twenty two. It's really unusual for a man of that
age to commit such a crazy heist. Nevertheless, a bold,
daring heist that involves a lot of physical danger. It's
not just running to the getaway car and driving away.
Speaker 2: Now, you were then steering towards DNA.
Speaker 5: Forensic DNA back to a Cooper Kahn. This last year,
we had doctor Colleen Fitzpatrick.
Speaker 2: Oh, we know Colleen very well, Yeah, we know. I
love Colleen.
Speaker 5: She's fantastic And she did a whole presentation on solving
the dB Cooper case with forensic DNA, and it upset
quite a few people. Whystic she fantasts a very hilarious,
like dry sense of humor.
Speaker 2: She does.
Speaker 5: She's one of the things that's been discussed in this
case is dB Cooper cut open one of the four
parachutes he was given to tie the money to himself.
And she said, oh, maybe we can try and pull
DNA from the shroud lines as long as those aren't contaminated.
And then she very quickly flips through ten slides of
ten different people handling the shroud lines with their bare hands, right,
and so then she's we could also examine that parachute
from that hijacking, as long as that's not contaminated, and
then very quickly flips through ten slides of ten people
handling it with no gloves.
Speaker 2: This to be fair to everyone, this is how evidence
was handled in nineteen seventy one. So the idea of
cross contamination and DNA and every buddy wearing the hazmat
suit and all the things we see on TV and
in movies today, that isn't the world of nineteen seventy one. No.
Speaker 5: I've even seen a picture of one of the FBI
agents wearing dB Cooper's clip on tie as a joke
photo op.
Speaker 2: And we could by the way, we both know Colleen
very well. She stayed here at the house. I could
totally see her, Yes, blow through the slides going click,
and that's the way things were handled. Then yep.
Speaker 4: So what was her ultimate conclusion on this That it
really isn't possible to solve it that way.
Speaker 5: Yes, she said there's some sort of like archaeology DNA test,
but she said that's like it costs a trillion dollars
at this point in time and wouldn't be used for
this particular case. So maybe in the far future, when
that technology is more readily accessible, we could take a
look at it. But basically her conclusion when at this
point in time, forensic DNA doesn't seem like an avenue
that's going to solve the dB Cooper case.
Speaker 2: Because it's easy enough to say, and we even said
it on Mind Over Murder. A couple of weeks ago,
the idea of the clip on tie that we might
be able to get touched DNA from the clip on tie.
Even when you start hearing things like and here's an
FBI agent wearing the clip on tie. Who knows how
many different agents and analysts handled the material from this case.
Speaker 5: I would guess over one hundred.
Speaker 2: But it's sure not going to make it easy if
you're trying to extract evidence from fifty four year old evidence.
That is a mess at this point.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah. And Weirdly, in this case, all of the
forensic examination of this case has been done by civilians,
so even the tie when the only forensic the real
forensic examination of the tie was done by Tom Kay,
who's a civilian who specializes in paleontology and has his
own super fancy microscope at his place. He looked at
it for the first time, and instead of solving the case,
it just took us in a different direction because there's
all these weird metals and rare earth elements on the tie. Yeah,
things that Bill and I. If you and I wore
tie every day our entire life, the same tie, we
wouldn't have these materials on our tie, especially in nineteen
seventy one, it's even weirder. So then it throws this
wrench into it where it's okay, now I'm a Wolfgang
Gossip guy. It's Wolfgang Gossip. Then someone's gonna say to me,
how do you explain the elements on the tie? I
don't know. I don't know if I can. And then
like Vince Peterson, for example, he is tied to Cooper
directly from the tie, almost exclusively from the tie, but
then there's nothing else that matches. It'd be like I
saw a red Mustang get away from this crime in Miami, Florida,
and I'm like, you know what, Bill Thomas has a
Red Mustang. It's definitely him. But Bill wasn't even in
Florida during that time period and is different make and
model Mustang. So it's just another part of this case
where instead of getting answers to things, just like the
money find on Tina Barr, that didn't answer any questions.
It only added more mystery to this.
Speaker 2: And then, of course, as a car buff I would
mention that the Ford Mustang was the best selling car
for several years running in the mid sixties, and who
knows how many millions of Mustangs were sold, and then
of course if you narrowed it down to how many
of them were red, and of course the car could
have been repainted, and you can just go on and on.
But the fact that someone was seen in a red
Mustang doesn't really give you very much exactly.
Speaker 5: It's just one sort of piece of evidence that you
can connect to or not depending on your suspect. The
derogatory term for some people in this is suspect peddlers,
where you have one suspect and you just absolutely stick
to it when different clues come out or different evidence
or this new a Thai particle. It is funny to
see someone who is dead set on their suspect then
try to jump through all these hoops. Oh, my suspect
could got those tie elements because his grandpa liked to
work on electronics in his basement.
Speaker 2: Boy, is that a stretch right?
Speaker 4: That actually kind of steers me toward another question that
you and I addressed off air, and that is, let's
get into the community surrounding dB Cooper. Through long and
bitter experience within the true crime community, we know that
cases that are old, cold, or intriguing, or all three
have a wide network of followers, many of whom are
positive their suspect is the right suspect. We see it
with Zodiac, we see with Jack the Ripper, and I'm
sure that you see it in the dB Cooper case,
which leads, of course to competing researchers, competing theories, and
competing podcasts. As someone who lives inside the dB Cooper vortex,
can you tell us a little bit about the inside
scoop on the GB Cooper community. What are the things
that you see really positive about the community and what
are the things that you would like to see the
community do a little bit better moving forward.
Speaker 5: I would say one of the most positive things about
this community is that most people come into it not
from a true crime angle, but from a oh I
have expertise in this field and I can offer some insights.
So a lot of pilots, a lot of skydivers come
into it from that angle, and so the community is
very oh I know about this. Let me tell you
about that where it's not a lot of arguing suspect
versus suspect. More, let's argue the nitty gritty details of
this particular navy backpack. It would have d rings in
these locations and they'd be affixed and the strap would
go diagonally and not horizontally. Weird details like that are
arguing about the landing, then you have, if I could
go back to my derogatory term, suspect peddlers. Yeah, that's
where you're going to have people who will get angry
about other people offering their opinion. You might see on
a board somewhere, Hey, I don't think I just read
about Billy Bob on this one website, and I don't
think that Billy Bob is dbe Cooper. And then you're
gonna have the guy pushing for Billy Bob just jump
right in and be like, you don't know what you're
talking about. And I looked at this for ten years,
and one thing that I've learned doing this show is
there's a certain type of person that can put a
lot of work into something and then realize, hey, I
was wrong about that, and then say hey I was
wrong about that, and then move on and be cool.
And then there's a different type of person where they've
put a lot of work into something and they will
not accept being wrong and they cannot accept critique. And
that's where you get a lot of people that become
angry or or even online will verbally assault someone or
call names or do things like that, try to get
forums taken down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get into the flame wars and all of that.
Is that a small percentage of people that get locked
into No, my guy John Doe is Dbie Cooper. Is
that frequent.
Speaker 5: It's I would say it's definitely a very small percentage.
It's people that have had this book out on the case,
and it's usually people who discovered a suspect before learning
about the case. So for whatever reason, I found Billy
Bob and you know what I heard about the Dbie
Cooper thing. I bet Billy Bob was Dbie Cooper. And
then they work backwards from there to match Billy Bob
to Cooper right versus someone who was in the case
and then maybe discovered a suspect. Those people tend to
go through suspects and rule them out one by one.
Another topic I've brought up on my show quite a
bit is accusing someone publicly of a crime with Cooper.
Most of those people are dead, almost all of them
are dead. On my show. I won't be the first one.
You're not going to come on my show and going
to be the first place you're going to name this suspect.
I would have to be very impressed for that. I
actually did one interview when the guy started naming names
and people that were alive, and I was like, WHOA,
I'm not doing this on this show. It's a slippery
area to accuse someone of a crime. I've known quite
a few people in the dB Cooper community that have
reached someone that they thought was a suspect to the
point where they've contacted the family. Hey what do you
think about this? Or Hey, I'm going forward with this.
Speaker 2: How can families respond?
Speaker 5: You know what? Usually the families in my experience are like, Okay, yeah,
that checks out. I don't know that he was Cooper.
I have no evidence of that, but I could see
that happening. That makes sense really yeah. And in the
instance Vince Peterson, though the family was contacted, it was
like a second cousin who didn't know him, and then
he publicly went with that and then the immediate family
was shocked and upset. So it's something I've covered. Michelle.
If you're looking into a suspect, what's the proper etiquette?
How do you go about doing that I'll ask my guest, Hey,
you Milton for Ordahl, for example, a suspect that more
than likely knew Vince Peterson and had worked together. My
friend Ryan and Nicky worked that guy, got to it,
made contact with the family in back channel before Milton
was ever a publicly named person anywhere, and their response was, yeah,
I could. I could see that. It's very possible. He
was a very odd, unique guy. And then they got
permission to say, hey, we're going to come forward with
this theory. The family didn't give an endorsement either way.
It was more we don't know, but it's not out
of the realm of possibility. But they did get permission
from the family to go forward versus the hey, I'm
just going to name this guy, and then you have
all these super amateur web sluts that are now going
to reach out to a family member, Hey did your dad,
by the way, did he smoke Raleigh cigarettes? And Jed,
It's just not the way to handle it.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back
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Speaker 4: Before we wrap up, I think a really compelling question
to end on is this idea that apparently we got
dinged for by an I rate listener, that we'd put forth,
this idea that d. B. Cooper has hit folk hero
status for some people, and that I think didn't sit
well with someone who was listening.
Speaker 2: What do you think.
Speaker 4: About this idea of dB Cooper being a folk hero,
like almost a robin Hood figure. And maybe I'm not
going in the right direction with the Robinhood parallel. I
think maybe you've got probably something a little better in mind.
But this idea of dB Cooper as he's a cool figure,
what do you think about that?
Speaker 5: Well, folk hero robin Hood. You guys aren't the first
people to put those phrases out about dB Cooper, not
at all. This hijacking takes place in the Pacific Northwest,
where it's a very already anti authority we do our
own thing kind of a.
Speaker 2: Place, yep.
Speaker 5: So immediately after the skyjacking, people are rooting for him.
Good he got away. He didn't physically hurt anyone in
doing this. If somebody was physically hurt in this, he
is probably the only one. If he was hurt at all.
But there are two camps in this. There is the
he's a full hero. It's cool. It's James Bond. He
stuck it to the man, y'all. He got his money
from the airline and an insurance company. He didn't steal
from a grandma. So all of that. Yeah, that's a
very popular narrative. A lot of people believe that. The
other is, Hey, here's a guy who put all these
passengers in danger. He completely stressed out these stewardess. Even
if his bomb is fake, if I show you a
bomb on an airplane, you can't ask, You can't say
that it's not real, can't say prove it. You have
to take the person at their word that their bomb
is real and the stress that this has caused on them.
Both of those angles of viewing him are true. He
is this criminal. He did stress out all these people,
although Tina Mucklow famously said that she was more bothered
by the attention from dB Cooper than the dB Cooper hijacking,
just the NonStop of the FBI was talking to them
for a while. One of the I think it's the
ex husband of one of the stewardesses said that they
believed that they were being tailed by the FBI for
a few weeks after the hijacking though, and then just
constant reporters, amateur sleuths. You can look someone up and
get a hold of them. And Tina's had people knock
on her door to her about the dB Cooper hijacket.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this is insane.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and she didn't choose to be a part of this.
She went to work one day. But while we are
on the topic of Stewardess's there are two things about
this case that drive me absolutely crazy. Two theories that
if you're just learning about dB Cooper from this show,
and it's the first time you've heard about it, you're
more than likely going to come up with one of
these two theories and think that they're valid and that
you may have solved the case. The first is that
the dB Cooper didn't exist and the flight crew was
in on it, or potentially dB Cooper was in on
it with the flight crew. It's absolutely ridiculous. There's zero
evidence to support it. The FBI looked into the flight crew.
I've talked too many people that worked for airlines, even
that particular airline in the sixties and seventies. They'll all
tell you the same thing. They loved their job. It
was very glamorous, paid very well. And the idea that
you're going to whack up two hundred thousand dollars between three, four, five,
six seven people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and risk your career jail.
Speaker 5: Of using your job is just completely ridiculous. Don't fall
into that trap. There's nothing there. The other one that
I absolutely can't stand, that's a total joke is dB
Cooper never jumped from the airplane. He hid on the
airplane and then escaped when no one was looking or
when it was convenient. That's absolutely ridiculous. The plane lands
in Reno, they thought there might be a potential for
him to jump off the airplane as it's landing, So
as the plane touches the ground, there were two squad
cars that trailed the plane all the way to a
complete stop. The plane is also then immediately searched with dogs. Right,
And if you've ever been on an airplane, you know
that there isn't a whole bunch of extra space they're
not using.
Speaker 2: Yeah in the restaurant.
Speaker 5: Quare inch of available space in that aluminum fuselage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that part is insane. While we're on the he
might not have put that many people at risk topic.
What's your take on this bomb that he had? I
put air quotes around that. Are we talking road flares
and wires? Do you think it was fake? Do you
think it was real?
Speaker 5: We don't know. This is another question I ask every
guest on the show, what do you think of Cooper's bomb?
Was a real? When I first came into this, I
would have told you the bomb was fake. There's no
reason for it to be real. But the more that
I've looked into this case and different copycats and the
way they operated, I lean towards it being real. Now.
The main reason for that is when the plane lands
in Seattle, if they just get the pilots off that
plane and he's sitting alone in that plane, there's no escape. True,
he's toast, and so if that plane doesn't take back off,
he's quote Tom Kay, trapped in an aluminum jail cell.
And so that I could see that reason for the
bomb being real, especially if you believe the narrative that
he's this down and out guy and this is his
last chance thing where Okay, I'm stuck now, I'm just
gonna blow myself up in the back row of this airplane.
So I would tend to toward it being real, but
gotta push back.
Speaker 2: I got to push back here. I don't think that
there's enough benefit to dB Cooper carrying a real bomb,
because the whole point is unless you're suicidal. I get
the point that when they landed in Reno that they
could have stormed the aircraft and taken it over. What's
the incentive for Cooper to blow himself and this Northwest
orient aircraft up there? There isn't really anything unless your
intention is effectively suicide or suicide by cop. I just
don't see the benefit your bluff, which is or you
show the flight attendant this tangle of explosives and what
looks like a timer and dynamite explosives. I think that
works just as well as a real bomb, doesn't it.
Speaker 5: Oh? Absolutely, a fake bomb absolutely works just as well.
The only reason for it to be real is if
the plan goes completely south in Seattle, specifically on the ground,
and the flight crew escapes because the pilots have sort
of an emergency window release in the front of the plane,
and then they get down the jankiest rope ladder you've
ever seen through the ground. And if that happens, then
he's trapped there, then at that point he could use
the bomb. I think he would have only hurt himself
with the bomb. I don't think he ever had any
intention of hurting anyone else. Because when they land and
seat out of one of his demands as meals for
the flight crew, because somehow he knew that flight crew
it was their last stop, and so now he was
extending their workday by another four hours.
Speaker 2: So he'd actually clearly studied some of the work responsibilities
and the hours and even their meal plan.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and he clearly knew more about the plane than
the pilots. The pilots didn't know that plane could be jumped.
They had to call air traffic control because he demanded
the plane take off with the aft stairs down. And
they call air traffic control and ask, can this plane
even fly with the aft stairs down? Air traffic control
has no idea. They had to call Boeing. Boeing confirmed, yes,
that plane can fly with the aft stairs down. We've
tested it. But the pilots still refused to take off
with the aft stairs down. They said it was unsafe
in a plane full of fuel. Interestingly, Cooper says, you
guys are wrong about that, but I'll just lower the
aft stairs in flight. There's a video on YouTube where
you can see a seven twenty seven taking off with
the aft stairs down. So how did Cooper know that
when the pilots of the plane had no idea about
any of this.
Speaker 2: I've actually deplaned in various airports and they used to
lower those rear stairs sometimes and you go down on
the tarmac. One of my jobs with ASKAP, the Songwriters Organization,
I had to fly all over the country for meetings
with members of Congress and songwriters and composers who made
up ass gaps membership. So I ended up traveling on
every single airline you've ever thought of, including a whole
bunch that are long out of business. And I remember
landing in Saint Louis once and there were dozens and
dozens of TWA aircraft and TWA had effectively gone out
of business except in that one hub. But I remember
getting off the plane several times where they lowered the
rear stairs. It never occurred to me to try to
do this in flight. As we read the Boeing and
the airlines did change the security systems on those rear
stairs so that they could not be lowered in flight.
Is that correct?
Speaker 5: Yes, in the most budget friendly way. They basically installed
a little flap that they coined the Cooper vein that
would attach to the latch mechanism on the rear stairs,
so that in flight, when the planes at speed, the
air will push that flap sideways and lock those stairs closed,
and then when the plane comes to a stop with
no wind anymore, the spring pressure pulls it back and
the aft stairs can be lowered. I've tried desperately to
get my hands on one of those, because it's just
a small little part, but I no luck yet. So
before I could get a Cooper van, reach out to
me because I'd love to have one.
Speaker 4: Future collectible Darren, where can our listeners find your podcast?
Speaker 5: The Cooper Vortex wherever you listen to podcasts?
Speaker 4: You've given us the names of so many wonderful resources.
I know you've named a couple of different books, but
are there any that you would recommend for somebody who
is just starting to get interested in the dB Cooper case.
Speaker 5: Yes, especially if you don't want to read a bunch
of lengthy books, if you'd just rather watch a couple
short YouTube clips or videos. My good friend Ryan Burns.
He's got this YouTube channel Dbie Cooper Sleuth. There's a
lot of really good videos on that. He'll do some
long form podcast style discussions on there, and then there's
a lot of really good short videos, including even YouTube shorts.
There was a story recently about a finding of a
parachute that was connected to Richard McCoy right, Ryan Burns
did three or four different videos completely debunking that that
are absolutely fantastic, And whenever that comes up on writ
It or something, someone'as, hey, I just heard about this.
I love for people to just be able to point to, Hey,
Ryan Burns dB Cooper Sleuth made this video. Watch this video.
It's all the facts about the case. And he'll go
into different things like he's got a video about smoking cigarettes,
he's got a video about the seven twenty seven half stars,
all these little things and debunkings particular suspects. It's a
great resource and really great guy. I love Ryan.
Speaker 2: What's your schedule? How often do you put out episodes
on the Cooper Vortex podcast.
Speaker 5: When I get real motivated, I'm doing one, maybe one
or two a month, and then I'll take a break.
I did this book review series at the beginning of
this year where I read like fourteen books in sixty
days and that burned me out on dB. Cooper a
little bit picked it back up, but I was trying
to keep a schedule, but it got to the point
where I was having people on the show where I
was like, this person doesn't deserve to be on the show,
because when I started the show, it's not like I'm
solving the case or anything like that. The point of
the show is there are so many different theories in
this case and so many super interesting suspects. I just
wanted it to be a place where here are all
the theories, and here are all the suspects on the case,
and you, as the listener, can decide what's legit, what's not,
who's onto something, who's a total quack. I'm just the
guy holding the microphone for you and helping the guests
guide them through their theory. I'm not I have some
guests on where I'm real friendly with them and I
can push back on things they say, but sure you'll
hear me in episodes, not push back on something that's
absolutely ridiculous, because I'm just trying to help that guest
get their story out.
Speaker 2: Are there people you would still like to have on
the podcast? Obviously, you have a standing offer for Dan
Cooper to contact you from the Old Age Home, and
I agree to it here on the podcast. Are there
other people you'd still like to get on the Cooper
of Vortex and have a good conversation with.
Speaker 5: Yes. Number one is Jeffrey Gray. I've tried to get
him on the show so many times. We've had interviews
scheduled and it didn't work out for him for one
reason or another. He keeps saying he's going to do it.
I haven't got him yet. But other than that, I've
been real lucky in being able to get who I've
wanted on the show. On Larry Carr brought the case.
He's a FBI agent. He brought the case to the
public in the two thousands because he thought, Okay, we've
gone nowhere with this. Let's put some of the stuff
in the public and see what comes in and see
if they can help us with it. I wanted him
on the show so badly. I even went through this
super lengthy process to have an FBI agent on the
show because he was still with the FBI. I ended
up doing that three separate times. The FBI rejected me
all three times. Oh and hilariously the last time. My
response was no, he will not be able to come
on the show, and you do not get to know why,
which I just saw was the most hilarious answer. No,
I need to know why because somebody just said no.
And I thought anything. But he told me privately after
that he was like, Hey, they're not going to let
me do it, but I'm retiring in eighteen months and
as soon as I retire, I'll reach out to you.
And I thought, okay, sure, whatever, I'll make a note.
And he reached out to me. He was like, Hey,
just had my retirement party yesterday. When are we doing
the show?
Speaker 2: I love it?
Speaker 5: Yes, So that was one I was really excited to do.
That was probably when I started this. It would have
been like Jeffrey Gray, Larry Carr, and then Joe Weber.
I really wanted on the show. Her husband confessed on
his deathbed, I'm Dan Cooper. This great story. She was
buck wild online. She was quite the character, huh. But unfortunately,
by the time I got into this, I had a
phone call with her, a very lengthy one. I might
have had a couple phone calls with her, but the
one in particular, the first time I spoke to her,
I thought it would be cruel to put her in
front of a microphone at that point in her life
because things were getting a little bit slippery for her.
Oh okay, which that was two years before HBO put
her on camera, when I was like, Oh, it's cruel
to put her on at this point in her life.
But that was one I was gonna fly to Florida
to do that interview, right, But when I got off
the phone with her, I was just like, it's not
the right thing to do.
Speaker 2: You were concerned that she'd be embarrassed because she was
getting older and slowing down.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and just wouldn't present the way she would have
five or ten years prior. I want anyone that comes
on my show, I wanted to be an episode that
they liked, that they enjoyed, that they're going to share
with their friends and family. And I just didn't want
to put someone elderly that might not have the best
grasp of what's going on or what they're saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole point is, you weren't looking to embarrass
someone or make them look like they were less in
command of the facts.
Speaker 5: Oh, definitely not at all. That's not what I want
to do.
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Gray has been named and shamed here on Mind
over Murder for not appearing with you on the Cooper Vortex.
Speaker 5: Shame on you, Jeffrey, What are you going to do?
My show? But Kristen that book it holds up really well.
And there are three phases of dB Cooper books. There
are pre internet books, post internet books, and then now
we have post FBI files books. There are two books
that hold up post FBI files extremely well. One is
Richard Tusaw's book. I think it's called Cooper. I can't
remember the name of Tusa, but it's Richard Tusa's book
on dB Cooper holds up extremely well. Ralph Heimmel'sbox Book
nor Jack that holds up pretty good too. Both of
those are pre Internet. Jeffrey Gray's book is post Internet
but pre FBI files. And one of the reasons that
holds up extremely well today is that because of Larry Carr,
he got unprecedented access to the FBI files. So he
was working with what Larry Carr gave him, which was
the best of the FBI files. Very cool all the
dB Cooper guys now are getting into the weeds, but
Jeffrey Gray had access to the FBI files before they
were made public.
Speaker 4: Darren, this has been extraordinarily interesting, complex and very interesting.
It makes me want to spend more time digging into
the dB Cooper case. So thank you very much for
giving us your time and expertise today and for helping
us deepen our understanding of the case.
Speaker 5: We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 4: I had a blust that is going to do it
for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so
much for listening.
Speaker 2: We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.
Speaker 4: H