Speaker 1: Old you is, folks, it's showtime.
Speaker 2: People pay good money to see this movie.
Speaker 1: When they go out to a theater.
Speaker 2: They want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters.
Speaker 3: In the protection booth, everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring, don
Speaker 3: it off?
Speaker 4: What Welcome to the projection booth.
Speaker 3: I'm here, Mike White joined me once again? Is mister
Speaker 3: rob Saint Mary Greetings. There's not a lot of lines
Speaker 3: to quote from this movie.
Speaker 5: No, And I was gonna say something horrible, but I
Speaker 5: decided I don't want to get hate mail.
Speaker 3: That's probably for the best. Also, back in the booth
Speaker 3: is the one who's getting the hate mail, Miss.
Speaker 2: Heather Edraid Oh boy Hattie. If I had a dollar
Speaker 2: for all the hate meil, I'd have some dollars. I'd
Speaker 2: me bind me a candy bar and a criterion copy
Speaker 2: of this amazing movie.
Speaker 3: Also Hello, Hello, We are kicking off Cheptember twenty twenty
Speaker 3: four with a classic of the check new wave yon
Speaker 3: Nemes Diamonds of the Night. Released in nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 3: The film was a groundbreaking piece of cinema based on
Speaker 3: Arnest Lustig's semi autobiographical novel Darkness Cast no shadow. The
Speaker 3: film is about the escape of two boys from a
Speaker 3: train carrying them to a death camp. The film works
Speaker 3: on several levels of past, present, and possible future, along
Speaker 3: with fantasy sequence, all mixed into one big movie via
Speaker 3: it's avant garde editing. We will be spoiling this film
Speaker 3: if that's possible, as we go along, so we don't
Speaker 3: want anything ruined. Please turn off the podcast, watch the
Speaker 3: criteria disc that Heather I was just talking about, and
Speaker 3: come on back. We will still be here. So Rob,
Speaker 3: was this a first time watch for you, sir?
Speaker 5: Yes, it was. I know that you've been doing your
Speaker 5: check series every year for many years, and having visited
Speaker 5: Czech Republic last year, which we'll talk about later. I
Speaker 5: think I may have said, hey, I've got some suggestions
Speaker 5: for you, and you said, how about we do this one?
Speaker 5: And I said that wasn't one of my suggestions, but
Speaker 5: it's still good. And what I like about watching this
Speaker 5: one is that it has a lot of aspects of
Speaker 5: just making you figure it out as you go. And
Speaker 5: this is not a film that is going to feed
Speaker 5: it to you on a spoon and expect you to
Speaker 5: lap it up and love it. But I think if
Speaker 5: you're into challenging work and interesting work and documentary style work.
Speaker 5: It really does a lot and talks about a very
Speaker 5: historical period, but it could be even broader than that,
Speaker 5: more existentially me That's why I liked it.
Speaker 3: Rob, You're gonna have to send me that list of
Speaker 3: movies you'd like to cover next year, as I set
Speaker 3: up the schedule for twenty twenty five, we'll do. Thank
Speaker 3: you and Heather, how about you? Had you seen this
Speaker 3: one before?
Speaker 2: No, this was the first time watch for me as well.
Speaker 2: In fact, I remember when I saw it on the list.
Speaker 2: It's one I'd heard of, and I was like, ooh,
Speaker 2: this is the perfect opportunity for me to dive in.
Speaker 2: And I was definitely not disappointed. And it's I love
Speaker 2: seeing a film that tackles something from recent history, especially
Speaker 2: but does it in a way that doesn't feel cheap.
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like overly dramatic or Oscar Baby or
Speaker 2: anything like that. This is definitely something I think incredibly
Speaker 2: creatively pure and emotionally pure about this film and how
Speaker 2: it's presented.
Speaker 3: This was also first time watch for me too. This
Speaker 3: was one of those I'm kicking my own ass to
Speaker 3: watch this movie because it's supposed to be a classic,
Speaker 3: and everything I hear about it, oh, it's so great.
Speaker 2: It's so great.
Speaker 3: It's so great, you know what. It lived up to
Speaker 3: the hype. If anything, it exceeded the hype because I
Speaker 3: just knew two boys escaped from a train and then
Speaker 3: you follow them yawn. But the way that this is shot,
Speaker 3: the way it's put together, the editing. We're going to
Speaker 3: talk about the editing for sure, just everything about it.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh wow, I did not expect this,
Speaker 3: even just from that very first shot. When I talk
Speaker 3: about boys escaping from a train, you basically catch them
Speaker 3: mid motion in media res as they are jumping and
Speaker 3: going into this ditch and running up this hill. And
Speaker 3: you got the sound of these shots and these boys
Speaker 3: just trying their most to get away. You get really
Speaker 3: close to them. It's not handheld, and I saw how
Speaker 3: they shot this, which was amazing. But just the way
Speaker 3: that you're focusing in on these boys and just it
Speaker 3: is so cinema veritate with that, and then when they
Speaker 3: start to introduce fantasy aspects of it, it just really
Speaker 3: took my breath away.
Speaker 5: Oh you were in it. That's the thing that I
Speaker 5: really enjoy about this, and it really I think sets
Speaker 5: it off. Like you were saying, from the first shot,
Speaker 5: this is a movie that's this is where we're at,
Speaker 5: This is where we're going, and they're in the middle
Speaker 5: of a forest, and everything is so tight. It's so
Speaker 5: tight on their faces and it's I want you to
Speaker 5: be there with them. They don't show you the train,
Speaker 5: you don't see anyone running after them. Everything is soundtrack.
Speaker 5: Soundtracking here is so important to that psychological element of
Speaker 5: just making you live with them. They want you to
Speaker 5: be as scared and confused and just regulated, to put
Speaker 5: a better word on it, through this whole thing, and
Speaker 5: it's fantastic in the way that it does that with
Speaker 5: such economy.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a beautiful way to put that. I love
Speaker 2: the economy the sound design, Chris. As you guys know,
Speaker 2: I am a massive sucker for when a director does
Speaker 2: that and has that attention and gives that because sound
Speaker 2: impacts everything, it can make or even break how powerful
Speaker 2: a film can be and how powerful scene could be.
Speaker 2: Just effect from the opening frame where you just have
Speaker 2: the stark black background and the white titles and all
Speaker 2: you're hearing is like a bell and that's really the
Speaker 2: closest thing we get to music and the whole film.
Speaker 2: And I love the fact that there's almost no dialogue.
Speaker 2: There's very little dialogue. I think it's sleep what the
Speaker 2: thirteen or fourteen minute mark that we finally hear a word.
Speaker 2: I love it because it's making you discomfort, like what
Speaker 2: you were saying, rob Like it's purposely putting you in
Speaker 2: this place where you're with these boys. These are kids,
Speaker 2: they're not like little kids that they're like teenagers. And
Speaker 2: I love it so much because I think sometimes, especially
Speaker 2: for us here in the States, you get so used
Speaker 2: to just this hollywoodification of everything, and especially if this
Speaker 2: is a serious movie, but then it almost feels that
Speaker 2: you're at the risk of cheapening emotions. With that kind
Speaker 2: of attention, it looks like anything in the right hands,
Speaker 2: you can do anything. But I love seeing something that
Speaker 2: was just so, this is this director's vision, and he
Speaker 2: is not giving you any comfort, because this is a
Speaker 2: story that doesn't warrant comfort. If you add any comfort
Speaker 2: to it, then you're robbing the power. And you're also
Speaker 2: doing a huge disservice to these characters and their situation.
Speaker 5: And the nonlinear aspect in which we really brings us
Speaker 5: in thinking that we're in real time and we very
Speaker 5: may well could in real time. We very may That
Speaker 5: is the main stock of the story is that, but
Speaker 5: slowly these and they start. They're rather short to begin with,
Speaker 5: the flashback pieces, and so there's a flashback of them
Speaker 5: jumping onto the street car, and then there's other flashbacks
Speaker 5: that come in, and it forces you as a viewer
Speaker 5: to consider when is this, was this just before? Was
Speaker 5: this five years ago? When was this? And what does
Speaker 5: this mean up against what we just saw? And the
Speaker 5: thing with those flashbacks is that when he does them,
Speaker 5: he doesn't really call attention to them so much. For example,
Speaker 5: cliche dream sequences in film, Oh it gets fuzzy around
Speaker 5: the edges, or we've shifted from black and white to color.
Speaker 5: The whole films in black and white, but anyway it
Speaker 5: shifts in some way. There's none of that. It's just here,
Speaker 5: have this image and deal with it, and then we're
Speaker 5: going to go to some other image.
Speaker 3: Those flashbacks or fantasy sequences, they are slightly overexposed sometimes
Speaker 3: but not too much. But the way that you can
Speaker 3: tell that they're more fantasy than real because you get
Speaker 3: to see them like hopping onto a tram and taking
Speaker 3: a tram across the city. But they're wearing these jackets
Speaker 3: that have a big KL on the back, and you
Speaker 3: see them as soon as the movie opens, when they're
Speaker 3: landing on the ground. They strip themselves on these jackets
Speaker 3: and they're very, very conspicuous in the KL on the back.
Speaker 3: I had to look it up because I didn't know.
Speaker 3: I was just like, just like a brand, or what
Speaker 3: are they? Why are they wearing this? And no, no,
Speaker 3: it's not like some sort of hip brand or anything.
Speaker 3: It's actually an abbreviation for and forget my pronunciation, Concentracian slager,
Speaker 3: which is German for concentration camp. So they're marked right there.
Speaker 3: And then you're like, oh, all of these sequences they
Speaker 3: have these jackets on, So is this the past but
Speaker 3: that now colored with their experience of going to the camps?
Speaker 3: Or is there just pure fantasy of these two guys
Speaker 3: enjoying their day and hopping on this tram because you
Speaker 3: also get to see them on a train later on,
Speaker 3: and I guess the one kid is eating a pine cone?
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 3: It just I kept trying to figure out what he
Speaker 3: was chewing on, but he seems desperately hungry. In some
Speaker 3: of those scenes.
Speaker 5: With the tram, it looks like a regular street As
Speaker 5: a matter of fact, I said, I was in frag
Speaker 5: and it looks like it was by the castle gate
Speaker 5: there at Charles River Bridge and they hop on there.
Speaker 5: But then it takes on this other element where it
Speaker 5: looks burned out and there's nothing, there's no one in it.
Speaker 5: And then they show you the same shot again later
Speaker 5: and it's just a regular streetcar and people are on
Speaker 5: it on a regular day. So he has this also
Speaker 5: recurring image use that recn and textualizes it where it's okay,
Speaker 5: is this fantasy, is this reality? Is this documentary of
Speaker 5: what they were doing days before or years before? But
Speaker 5: you really get the sense of with them, even within
Speaker 5: the context of them being on the street car and
Speaker 5: it's quote unquote normal, there's still others. There's still this
Speaker 5: feeling of they're the outsiders, that they're people are looking
Speaker 5: at them weird.
Speaker 3: Well, they passed by those younger Nazis, and those Nazis
Speaker 3: look like they're younger than these kids are. They look
Speaker 3: like they're fourteen, fifteen years old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're smiling and chatting with each other, and
Speaker 2: I thought of all the visual choices that stuck out
Speaker 2: with me, the use of ants.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm as soon as I saw that, I
Speaker 3: was like, oh, Rob must be happy. This is a
Speaker 3: total boon.
Speaker 2: Well left, yeah completely, and the fact that it comes
Speaker 2: back too, that we have for repetition of it, and
Speaker 2: it even just yeah, especially when it comes back. It's
Speaker 2: very surrealist the way it's executed, which of course I love.
Speaker 2: But the choice of having the most sinister humans in
Speaker 2: this film, it's necessarily the two because you're right, the
Speaker 2: two actual Nazis. We see the Swasa because they're kids,
Speaker 2: and that's honestly, that's the reality. People got drafted. I
Speaker 2: think we're so used to seeing the classic Stern villain. Obviously,
Speaker 2: the Nazis party terrible. Obviously there's no argument on that.
Speaker 2: But let time you just get these kids and get drafted.
Speaker 5: Does inside let the record reflect, I did not mention
Speaker 5: the name.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, no, no one's taking a drink because you
Speaker 3: didn't get to say it yet, So keep an here
Speaker 3: out for that people at home, be word, yes, Robie
Speaker 3: drinking game that he has.
Speaker 5: But when you were talking about the youngest Nazis is
Speaker 5: at the opposite end, you have the oldest men who
Speaker 5: are like the militia, the hunt party who or after them.
Speaker 5: And one of the things that I really like about
Speaker 5: what they do in here, and I wonder if this
Speaker 5: was the director's choice to do this or if it
Speaker 5: was just the way that it was released, is that
Speaker 5: there's no subtitles on any of the other dialogue. It's
Speaker 5: mostly the subtitle is on their dialogue. Anyone in kind
Speaker 5: of the outside world is not subtitled, So there is
Speaker 5: this kind of I don't understand what they're saying or
Speaker 5: so I guess that as an element of your them
Speaker 5: and you would be in these scenarios where if you
Speaker 5: didn't speak German, or you didn't speak whatever the language was,
Speaker 5: you would have felt as out. So they want the
Speaker 5: audience to feel as out in that way too.
Speaker 3: Right before I came down to record this episode, I
Speaker 3: was just putting the finishing touches on the episode about
Speaker 3: Chris Pettit's radio on and that has a lot of
Speaker 3: German ties to it. Vin Vendors was an associate producer
Speaker 3: and there are a lot of German characters in that
Speaker 3: and none of them are subtitled either, So you do
Speaker 3: get that I'm on the outs thing that these characters have,
Speaker 3: because yeah, anytime anyone speaking German, they're not subtitled, nor
Speaker 3: would these kids understand it. So you just feel like
Speaker 3: they do where you're being attacked by these old men.
Speaker 3: And it's funny because by the end of the war
Speaker 3: I think it was just old men and young kids
Speaker 3: that were left. And I don't know if this reflects
Speaker 3: that with the young and they almost look like SS
Speaker 3: officers versus that old man group. And it could also
Speaker 3: be this is nineteen sixty four, this comes out. This
Speaker 3: could also be the hey, the youth have it going
Speaker 3: on and these old people are trying to keep us
Speaker 3: down kind of thing, because those old people, they just
Speaker 3: they're having the best time after they go out and
Speaker 3: go for a hunt and then they get to come
Speaker 3: back to this big empty hall with all of this
Speaker 3: that tried us all over and they just get to
Speaker 3: drink beer and sing and dance and they're having a
Speaker 3: good old time, which just goes against what you see
Speaker 3: these two boys standing with their faces against the wall
Speaker 3: and their hands up the entire time, and just what
Speaker 3: a stark contrast.
Speaker 5: And for me, again, this is another film with dancing Nazis.
Speaker 5: So you can add this one to Salo, you can
Speaker 5: add this one to the Damned if you really love
Speaker 5: dancing Nazis. It's another film to put in your catalog
Speaker 5: of dancing Nazi films. I don't know why they always
Speaker 5: hip dancing Nazis.
Speaker 2: That's a micro shot or people that talk about enough.
Speaker 5: I'm going to put my proposal together and see if
Speaker 5: i can get a book deel on that one.
Speaker 3: Also, you've got the guy who is in the concentration
Speaker 3: camp that dances for Dick Bogart in night Porter. But
Speaker 3: I think Dick Bogart also has a slow dance with
Speaker 3: the Charlotte Rampling too true.
Speaker 5: I hate these guys now.
Speaker 2: That was something I found such fascinating. Choice is that
Speaker 2: the real villains of this piece are these old men.
Speaker 2: It's not the actual literal Nazis, but these old, disgusting,
Speaker 2: hateful I don't think I have seen a more hateful
Speaker 2: village since al Topo. It actually a lot of times
Speaker 2: with the hunting and the weapons made me think of
Speaker 2: the ending of al Topo and just how grotesque and
Speaker 2: needlessly horrible, absolutely needlessly horrible. And you could read a
Speaker 2: lot into the problems of tribalism, and just some just
Speaker 2: there's so many pockets of humanity that don't even need
Speaker 2: to be fed too much propaganda, to be pushed very
Speaker 2: easily into being the absolute worst aspect of themselves. Seeing
Speaker 2: these horrible human beings hick at a chicken carcass eating sausage.
Speaker 2: Good lord, this makes it La grand bou look like
Speaker 2: a fantage.
Speaker 3: It's just a normal day in frankenmosh good as zenders,
Speaker 3: you'll see the same thing. Sorry, just a horrible as
Speaker 3: you can reference. Worse than watching them eat is hearing
Speaker 3: them eat. That lip smacking noise was driving me crazy.
Speaker 3: And just you talk about that emphasis on audio, and
Speaker 3: I'm curious. I doubt any audio was shot on set.
Speaker 3: I imagine this was all post sounds. So all of
Speaker 3: this soundscape is very well crafted. The sound of the
Speaker 3: branches as they're going through the forest, the sound of
Speaker 3: the gunshots that are going off, the sounds of the tram.
Speaker 3: But yeah, when they get to that end part and
Speaker 3: you're just those guys eating, oh it is a little
Speaker 3: cross friend. They just and they're having such a good time.
Speaker 3: And the reason why I say it looks post dubbed
Speaker 3: is because there's a lot of times where mouths are moving,
Speaker 3: words aren't coming out, and just it sounds that way.
Speaker 2: It's so disgustingly executed. You literally you almost feel like
Speaker 2: they're spitting in your faith, like this spittle. It's like
Speaker 2: having to sit next to a really gross relative at
Speaker 2: a family table. Yea who in addition to telling you
Speaker 2: their garbage opinions on the youth of today and political
Speaker 2: affairs and how they're going to vote, they're also like
Speaker 2: basically filating a turkey leg and as they're gnawing our cartilage.
Speaker 2: That's how it felt. It is, and they're already repugnant
Speaker 2: because I think ikept thinking about two is these poor
Speaker 2: kids that have been starving, Like when we finally see them,
Speaker 2: the one time we see them get deep real food
Speaker 2: like bread, they start spinning up blood. These poor children
Speaker 2: that are suffering needlessly, and they're having to be in
Speaker 2: the room with these disgusting, loud, drunk Bavarians. And that's
Speaker 2: that all Bavarians obviously come on, but like these horrible people,
Speaker 2: and they could smell the cooked food that they probably
Speaker 2: had longer. Just how horrible that is. And ugh, it's amazing.
Speaker 2: That's duty of filmmaking, though, Like we didn't have to
Speaker 2: have any snidely whiplash moments, just the economy the earlier.
Speaker 2: I love that use of that word.
Speaker 5: And for me, all of this comes out of the
Speaker 5: fact of how they set this thing up in that
Speaker 5: because it is so quiet in the beginning, it makes
Speaker 5: you lean in, it makes you pay attention. When they
Speaker 5: work the sound the way that they do, it's just
Speaker 5: even more overly intimate. For lack of a better as
Speaker 5: they were talking about all the eating, but can we
Speaker 5: talk about when they get that opportunity to eat? And
Speaker 5: I was really thrown off and then it shifted on me.
Speaker 5: And what I mean by that is the boys are
Speaker 5: in the forest and one of them goes, I'm gonna
Speaker 5: go over that house and I'm gonna get something because
Speaker 5: they're like, when do we eat? And I don't know.
Speaker 5: It's been days, last time week. So he goes over
Speaker 5: this farmhouse and there's a woman there, and through a
Speaker 5: series of different interactions and repeated interactions, they're like, it's
Speaker 5: almost looping. He gets bread. At one point there's a
Speaker 5: suggestion that maybe he sleeps with her. There's a suggestion
Speaker 5: at one point and maybe he kills her. There's just
Speaker 5: multiple looping in this scene that I think that's the
Speaker 5: scene for me, at least when I was watching it,
Speaker 5: where I go, Okay, this is no longer linear with splashback.
Speaker 5: This is something that is almost internal, and I don't
Speaker 5: know whose internal it is. Is it the kid who's
Speaker 5: in the room, is it someone else? What is it
Speaker 5: they're trying to tell us Nip, because it seems at
Speaker 5: that point things shift.
Speaker 3: For me, My interpretation is that it is Drew. He
Speaker 3: is the character's name or antonin Comberra, the darker complexed
Speaker 3: of the two.
Speaker 5: God.
Speaker 3: He's really orgeous, this kid, and I feel like that's
Speaker 3: his fantasies? What should I do? Should I murder her?
Speaker 3: Should I rape her? I wouldn't say that they sleep together.
Speaker 3: It felt much more like a rape to me. I
Speaker 3: don't know or at least one of those should What
Speaker 3: should I do with this person? And can I get
Speaker 3: what I want? Which is that bread right there? And
Speaker 3: the way that she cuts those thick, thick slices of bread.
Speaker 3: I'm just like, oh man, that looks fantastic.
Speaker 5: And at the same time I couldn't figure out if,
Speaker 5: like where they were like, is she also an outsider
Speaker 5: because I can't remember if she says something to him
Speaker 5: or not.
Speaker 3: I think she's the farmer's wife. I think that that's
Speaker 3: how they find her, as they see the farmer plowing
Speaker 3: the field and she comes and brings him lunch, and
Speaker 3: so they figure that they have to have food, so
Speaker 3: they follow her back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you.
Speaker 3: Did it to see a woman who looks like she's
Speaker 3: in the city though sometimes and she's up in a window.
Speaker 3: Do you know who I'm talking about and looks like
Speaker 3: the same woman?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I noticed that you have a
Speaker 2: lot of flashbacks where some of the flashbacks do seem
Speaker 2: a bit like you're not entirely sure, You're like, is
Speaker 2: this reality? But it's also if you're in that kind
Speaker 2: of extremity of a situation, memory is going to get
Speaker 2: really weird. I think memory in the vist lush cush
Speaker 2: circum stances without stressed human memories already gets a little faulty.
Speaker 2: Kid's a little loosey cocy sometimes a lot of times
Speaker 2: I don't even intentionally, but then you're in this extreme
Speaker 2: situation and there are times we are almost like this
Speaker 2: could almost be like not a hallucination, but where your
Speaker 2: brain gets in that state because they're starving, they are exhausted,
Speaker 2: they are running on probably one hundred percent anxiety. Anybody's
Speaker 2: got a panic attack knows how horrible that feeling is.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine having to basically be running on that
Speaker 2: feeling and the absolute one of the worst circumstances of
Speaker 2: a person could be and on top of that, just
Speaker 2: forget getting any nutrients that's up with that. I just
Speaker 2: so I thought that it was such a cool move
Speaker 2: because it didn't feel it didn't feel forced. I think that,
Speaker 2: to me was one of the fascinating things. Is like
Speaker 2: when you when you start dipping into both something that's
Speaker 2: historically rooted as well as surrealism. It takes a very
Speaker 2: keen mind to do that well and not have it
Speaker 2: come across as pretentious or arch And in this film,
Speaker 2: everything is so fluid, everything feels so perfect, and it's
Speaker 2: it's incredibly creative, well at the same time seeming very intimate,
Speaker 2: but also I think Mike earlier you said there attends
Speaker 2: seems very cinema verite, and it does. It feels very raw,
Speaker 2: but he had incredibly incredibly just very beautifully crafted, like
Speaker 2: it's such a pull mix. I can't think of too
Speaker 2: many movies on the top I had that have that combo.
Speaker 3: Well, it could have been somewhat of a disaster too,
Speaker 3: because his cinematographer left midway through, Yaroslav Kuchera. He ended up,
Speaker 3: Now this is mimic saying this stuff and nemic. He's prankster.
Speaker 3: So this might be apocryphal, but he was saying that,
Speaker 3: And there are two dps that are credited on here.
Speaker 3: But Kchera was supposed to be part of a film
Speaker 3: festival down in South America or Central America, and so
Speaker 3: he was just like, hey, I'm never going to have
Speaker 3: this opportunity again. I need to go. But here's my assistant,
Speaker 3: Miroslav Underchek, who if you listen to the show, you've
Speaker 3: heard Ondichek's name mentioned a ton of times. I can't
Speaker 3: remember if he was married to Hitlova or if he
Speaker 3: just shot a lot of her films, but just he's
Speaker 3: a great cinematographer, amazing, and so is Kuchera. And so
Speaker 3: according to Nemek, it worked out well that Kuchera shot
Speaker 3: more of the street ahead like scenes in the forest
Speaker 3: type things that Tracking shot that amazing tracking shot and
Speaker 3: all of those like more realistic things, and then under
Speaker 3: check shot more of the fantasy stuff. So he's, oh,
Speaker 3: it was nice and it had a different feel to it.
Speaker 3: I don't know how much of that I believe, but
Speaker 3: if he says it or said it, I should say,
Speaker 3: because he passed away in twenty sixteen, Okay, maybe that worked.
Speaker 3: And then his other thing that he was saying was
Speaker 3: that and this is just amazing to me. So this
Speaker 3: was edited by a man named Miroslav Jack haj e K.
Speaker 3: And if you've been listening to the Projection Booth, this
Speaker 3: guy has edited so many of the movies that we've
Speaker 3: talked about. I've never really picked up on just how
Speaker 3: many movies he did. He started working in nineteen forty nine,
Speaker 3: or at least that's his first credited editing job. He
Speaker 3: edited two hundred and twenty six films. It's nineteen forty
Speaker 3: nine when he's starting. The check new wave comes around
Speaker 3: what sixty three, sixty fours when they generally say that
Speaker 3: it started, I think sixty three. He does all of
Speaker 3: this avant garde editing. He has done so many of
Speaker 3: the movies that we've talked about, like a case for
Speaker 3: a rookie hangman. He would work with Flatchil, he would
Speaker 3: work with Weiss, he had worked with old Rich Lipski,
Speaker 3: and just over and over and over again, so many
Speaker 3: of these movies, even like Happy End, one of my
Speaker 3: most favorite films in the world, which is all told
Speaker 3: back words with a voice over the ghost forwards amazingly
Speaker 3: avant garde, and this guy was like, oh yeah, and
Speaker 3: apparently t neemic. He's just like, tell me what you
Speaker 3: want and I'll just come up with it for you,
Speaker 3: and worked on all of this stuff and it's just
Speaker 3: fucking amazing that he did this.
Speaker 5: It's also my understanding that one of the cinematographers also
Speaker 5: did most of Foreman's work all the way up to
Speaker 5: Amadaeus and such.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was I'm go check now, that's something that like,
Speaker 2: I find so fascinating and charming about this, and I'll
Speaker 2: be the first movement that like when it comes to
Speaker 2: check sen them up. I am still very much of
Speaker 2: what I would call the newborn baby deer Stead. It's
Speaker 2: like I am still I'm very much a newbie. But
Speaker 2: one I think's actually attracted me to doing this film
Speaker 2: is I remember hearing that Lottie, which I think he's created.
Speaker 2: He has Lattislavyansky, who's the of the two of our
Speaker 2: two main characters. He's the older kid that's a little taller.
Speaker 2: Then it's also Lotty Voniansky, and of course as well
Speaker 2: I can Rob definitely do this. Probably that's hurt me
Speaker 2: on Projection before. I'm a massive fan of Steven Stadion
Speaker 2: and I've written a lot about Steven's work. I'm currently
Speaker 2: working on a big project about his art and Lottie
Speaker 2: and Steven worked here on on everything going from Hustler
Speaker 2: up into Doctor Calgary. But Stephen, if it's so camera
Speaker 2: to read what he sent me, because he texted me
Speaker 2: that because of course, Foreman, you mentioned Milos formatively. Okay,
Speaker 2: this is the part of the show where I had
Speaker 2: had to bring this up. But after Milos is amazing
Speaker 2: success with one flew over the Cuckoo says is seventy five.
Speaker 2: He had a lot of poll and told everyone with
Speaker 2: an earshot that Yan Nemeck is quote unquote the best
Speaker 2: among all the Czech directors, including me. He arranged for
Speaker 2: Yan to beat with all the studio heads. Yon flew
Speaker 2: to La reluctantly and to no one, surprise, loathed everyone
Speaker 2: he met on site, could not stomach the typical Hollywood bullshit.
Speaker 2: He stay in Hollywood for a year or two and
Speaker 2: started shooting weddings. Guy, I can you imagine? Holy shit,
Speaker 2: I took my brain just processed that part right now
Speaker 2: on air.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I read that he was shooting weddings.
Speaker 3: Here's the guy who directed the party and the guests,
Speaker 3: and he's shooting weddings. One of the best and most
Speaker 3: avant garde of the Czech new wave and yeah, he's
Speaker 3: doing your wedding video for you.
Speaker 2: Holy shit. I had to stop for that one, draking
Speaker 2: up all his profits. Lottie wasn't living in la during
Speaker 2: this time. Lotti, Milo Sian Ivan Passer, who Cutter's Way. God,
Speaker 2: that's a phenomenal movie, and you're and God, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: apologize right now. I'm gonna try and get this right.
Speaker 2: Eurrage here yep, who did the creator? You can tell
Speaker 2: I took German and not that all met in the
Speaker 2: mid sixties while attending film school in Czechoslovakia. Diamonds of
Speaker 2: the Night was a huge hit and Lottie became a
Speaker 2: teen idol. He was christened the quote unquote Check James
Speaker 2: Dean and Stephen added and this is so heavy, but
Speaker 2: it's true. Among all the names mentioned above, Lottie is
Speaker 2: the only one is still with us. I think I
Speaker 2: we still have Lottie. Lottie worked with Steven on do
Speaker 2: the photography for Frank Zappa's Thinkfish album. I think that
Speaker 2: to go from being the Czech James Dean and being
Speaker 2: one of the leads in this incredible film to not
Speaker 2: only working with Stephen Sadian, who's also a great a
Speaker 2: tour in his own very different way, but the Frank Zappa,
Speaker 2: it's it's amazing. It's amazing all the inroads that are
Speaker 2: are in this story and with these with these figures.
Speaker 2: But itways. I thought that was so cool. And also
Speaker 2: I think Milis Foreman already get at more points the
Speaker 2: guy obviously know this. Foreman's great, but holy crap, I
Speaker 2: love that he vouched for a friend like that. Not everybody,
Speaker 2: not every It's sad to say in this world, not everybody,
Speaker 2: and everybody is is as moral as they should be
Speaker 2: with things.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, poor Yan Nemick was one of the three Check
Speaker 3: filmmakers who were at Con nineteen sixty eight, where and
Speaker 3: i'd love he's the guy nemic, is the guy he
Speaker 3: pulls no punches, and I fucking love him for this,
Speaker 3: because he's the guy who goes Yeah. Godar closed down
Speaker 3: the whole festival because of the protests that were happening
Speaker 3: because of May sixty eight and all this. But really,
Speaker 3: what I think it was is that the French didn't
Speaker 3: have nearly as good of films as we had.
Speaker 2: I love it. He's like cutting a wrestling promo. That's
Speaker 2: soly I love. I love that he has so many
Speaker 2: great quotes, because you'd send us all of these amazing
Speaker 2: articles that were both about him, and there was one
Speaker 2: or two at least it had that was like the
Speaker 2: interviews and had some amazing quotes. And his quote about
Speaker 2: cinema this touched me so much, where he wrote, a
Speaker 2: pure film, which I should like to achieve, should be
Speaker 2: interpretable in itself, It should have its own aesthetics and poetry.
Speaker 2: I cannot think of a truer statement of when cinema
Speaker 2: is what it should be than that statement right there.
Speaker 2: When film is magic, no matter what kind of film
Speaker 2: it is, genre, story, whatever, When it's right and you
Speaker 2: feel it in your bones and it changes your DNA
Speaker 2: that statement.
Speaker 5: I love the French New Wave. There's a difference between
Speaker 5: fighting against a I guess this is the capitalist system
Speaker 5: we have to live under. We'll just satirize it, versus no, seriously,
Speaker 5: there's fucking tanks in the series and this really fucking
Speaker 5: sucks there. It's a real different attitude that comes with
Speaker 5: being in Czechoslovakia and making movies in this period.
Speaker 3: That interview from closely watched films where the author made
Speaker 3: sure to point out when it was being recorded and
Speaker 3: it was like the Prog Spring. I think it was
Speaker 3: like July of sixty eight and I was just like,
Speaker 3: holy shit, like here I am as a filmmaker. I
Speaker 3: just got back from con basically where my film wasn't shown,
Speaker 3: which was delayed in release by the Czech government. I
Speaker 3: believe I'm trying to remember my party and the guests knowledge,
Speaker 3: but that was delayed for two years because it came
Speaker 3: out it might have come out after Murders of Love
Speaker 3: even though it shot before, and like to have that
Speaker 3: piece of history there where it's just this is where
Speaker 3: we're at right now.
Speaker 5: It's interesting that you were talking about the Prog Spring
Speaker 5: and that and I knew some of that history, but
Speaker 5: I didn't know it as well as when I went
Speaker 5: to Prague a year ago. This is August of twenty
Speaker 5: twenty three. You have a friend from Detroit who moved
Speaker 5: there about six or seven years ago and he retired
Speaker 5: there and really speak Check. But he had some contacts
Speaker 5: there in the art world and just really fell in
Speaker 5: love with the place. And when he was a kid,
Speaker 5: he had traveled with his parents and they had I
Speaker 5: believe gone there at one point, so he was always like,
Speaker 5: I need to come back here. I had an opportunity
Speaker 5: in August of twenty three to go there for about
Speaker 5: ten days and stay with him. And one of the
Speaker 5: places where I learned a lot about sort of the
Speaker 5: history of this period was the Museum of Communism in Prague.
Speaker 5: And the Museum of Communism is great because I explained
Speaker 5: Marxism and it was a philosophical statement, but really gets
Speaker 5: into what life was like day to day, kind of
Speaker 5: year by year right after World War Two ends and
Speaker 5: really gives you a sense of what people were up against.
Speaker 5: And when you watch Check film with this knowledge, then
Speaker 5: you have a more richer understanding of this. One of
Speaker 5: my friends since I was in high school. His family
Speaker 5: was next door. He's Slovak and his family came over
Speaker 5: in the early eighties. So I have some reference before
Speaker 5: for all of this from my friend Dean and his
Speaker 5: family of what they were under living in Bratislava. But
Speaker 5: really the whole thing with the Prague Spring and that
Speaker 5: it's handled beautiful in Museum of Communism, if you ever
Speaker 5: get a chance to go to Prague, you should go there.
Speaker 5: But the other aspects of the film that I found
Speaker 5: were interesting, and I watched some of the extras. Was
Speaker 5: there was a historian that was talking about the writer
Speaker 5: of the novel, the semi autobiographical novel in which film
Speaker 5: is based on, had spent time in Tarzine. Now Tarzine
Speaker 5: I did not know about. This is not something that
Speaker 5: was talked about in American history books. From what I remember,
Speaker 5: we knew a lot of the names of the concentration camps, Docau,
Speaker 5: outchfitz bergen Belsen, all of that, but we're never really
Speaker 5: told about Tarrazine. Terrazine in some ways is just as
Speaker 5: horrible and just as shocking because it's a town in
Speaker 5: Czech Republic that was a former Austro Hungarian garrison and
Speaker 5: the Nazi set it up as this Potemkin village, and
Speaker 5: basically it was a way for them to showcase how
Speaker 5: well they were treating the Jews, and so they brought
Speaker 5: in the international press, they brought in the newsreels, the
Speaker 5: International Red Cross, who was making sure that they were
Speaker 5: doing things okay, and they made all of this propaganda
Speaker 5: about how it was for all these Jews who were
Speaker 5: all living in Tarrazine. And then basically as soon as
Speaker 5: that stuff went out and the Nazis were like, are
Speaker 5: we clear, Okay, We're clear, load them on train cars
Speaker 5: and sent them all off, and I think the majority
Speaker 5: of them went Dauschwitz. And it's my understanding that the
Speaker 5: novelist on which this film was based within Tarrazine, and
Speaker 5: maybe this is part of this escape on the train.
Speaker 5: A few years ago, my friend who lives in Prague,
Speaker 5: my friend Rick, worked on a short documentary with a
Speaker 5: friend of his about this and had originally asked me
Speaker 5: to assist with the voiceover. I did do a voice
Speaker 5: of version. They didn't end up using it. That's fine,
Speaker 5: but the documentary is still quite good. And so I'm
Speaker 5: going to share the link with you, Mike, and you
Speaker 5: can put it up on the show page case people
Speaker 5: are interested, So I would say watch that museum Communism.
Speaker 5: And then the third piece of this when we talk
Speaker 5: about Okay, obviously there's all of the Communists stuff that
Speaker 5: comes after World War Two, but Czechoslovakia was under one
Speaker 5: of the worst Nazis, the guy that scared Hitler, which
Speaker 5: is Ryan Hart Heidrich. So Heydrich was basically the territorial
Speaker 5: governor of the Czech Republic in this period for several years.
Speaker 5: But he was also the architect of the Final Solution
Speaker 5: and was the Aryan ideal. You go look up a
Speaker 5: photo Hydrich and you'll be like blonde hair, blue eyed,
Speaker 5: Aryan ideal kind of guy. And he was the one
Speaker 5: who was the architect of the final solutions. And I
Speaker 5: believe it was forty two or forty five three. There
Speaker 5: was an effort by check Partisans in which they were
Speaker 5: trained by the British and then they were parachuted Bragg
Speaker 5: because they knew how driver would drive him through a
Speaker 5: certain part of town to go from where he lived
Speaker 5: to where his work was. He always had a thing
Speaker 5: about driving in an open car. He didn't like to
Speaker 5: be in a closed car because he liked to show
Speaker 5: his power as the territorial governor of the area, and
Speaker 5: one set of check partisans got way off. The other
Speaker 5: ones were closer, and during this part in the curve
Speaker 5: in the road, car has to stop or slow down
Speaker 5: pretty heavy, and the two guys jump out and are
Speaker 5: about to take him out. The gun jams. Someone ends
Speaker 5: up throwing a grenade which wounds. He actually ends up
Speaker 5: dying from his wounds. And so because of that, all
Speaker 5: of these paratroopers were all in hiding and there was
Speaker 5: a massive bounty on all of their heads for doing this.
Speaker 5: They were eventually traced down to a church. There was
Speaker 5: a priest who held them in the bowels of this
Speaker 5: church in the catacombs, and so that church now is
Speaker 5: a national memorial to the heroes of the Hydrich terror.
Speaker 5: They were all discovered and they were all killed, but
Speaker 5: the museum is quite moving as you expect, and the
Speaker 5: story of them and the aftermath of what happened. As retaliation,
Speaker 5: there was a town in Czechoslovakia that was literally wiped
Speaker 5: off the map as reprisal. I think it was ten
Speaker 5: to twenty thousand people were killed as a reprisal for
Speaker 5: killing basically the number three man. It's interesting the way
Speaker 5: the museum handles that history and talks about was it
Speaker 5: worth it? Was it not worth it? I guess it's
Speaker 5: a parlor game. We'll never know, but it's one of
Speaker 5: those really nasty pieces of history. But it's a fascinating
Speaker 5: piece of history. And all of the men who were
Speaker 5: the paratroopers who took part in that are all honored
Speaker 5: with busts in their stories, their biographies of who they
Speaker 5: were and their part in Operation Anthropoid, as it was
Speaker 5: called the Real.
Speaker 3: Quick before I forget I was wrong. The progue Spring
Speaker 3: starts in January of sixty eight. It ends the tanks
Speaker 3: roll in August twentieth, nineteen sixty eight, and that interview
Speaker 3: was recorded July eighteenth, nineteen sixty eight, as the worm
Speaker 3: had started to turn, and the author talks about how
Speaker 3: there was a missive from Warsaw let's it say quote
Speaker 3: where the five Eastern European communist parties had met and
Speaker 3: addressed a poisonous missive to the Czechoslovak Party, which they
Speaker 3: had conveniently neglected to invite to the session. So that
Speaker 3: was all the news on the TV and radio was
Speaker 3: how things were about to get bad at the brink
Speaker 3: of history rather than in the middle of history. Though
Speaker 3: that time between January and August was supposed to be
Speaker 3: this great time and it was like new freedoms for
Speaker 3: to check people, and then it came to a very
Speaker 3: big close. And as far as the artist Lustig, yeah,
Speaker 3: I definitely recommend, I think, yeah, we didn't an episode.
Speaker 3: We also did a commentary for Transport from Paradise, which
Speaker 3: addresses the whole thing of the concentration camp that he
Speaker 3: was in, and they have a recreation of the making
Speaker 3: of Hitler gives a town to the Jews at the
Speaker 3: beginning of it, which is just Yeah, it makes you
Speaker 3: sick to think of this propaganda that Hitler was putting out.
Speaker 3: As far as we treat the Jews nice, look at
Speaker 3: all of these wonderful Jews, aren't they happy? Look at
Speaker 3: this wonderful ghetto that they're living in. It is awful.
Speaker 3: But that movie is fantastic. Yet another one based on
Speaker 3: his life. And according to what I've read, he was
Speaker 3: in Terrenzott, he went to he had the tour shirt,
Speaker 3: he went to Ashwitz, he went to booke Involved and
Speaker 3: then eventually he's going to doc Out and that's where
Speaker 3: he jumped off of the train.
Speaker 5: Wow, it's just incredible. And like I said, when you
Speaker 5: think about what kind of the culture informs the prog
Speaker 5: film or the Czech film and the Czech I mentality
Speaker 5: and culture in this period, just living through World War
Speaker 5: Two was enough then to have to deal with the
Speaker 5: aftermaaf of dealing with the Iron Curtain and everything that
Speaker 5: that entailed, it's no wonder you look at these films
Speaker 5: and you see this version, you see their humanism, you
Speaker 5: see their call for those kinds of conversations, and to me,
Speaker 5: it's amazing when you think about answership under those kind
Speaker 5: of regimes that so much great film was able to
Speaker 5: come out and to have these themes, because you would
Speaker 5: think these sensors would just cut these things ribbons.
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of the history were taught
Speaker 2: in America. Even our own history is so flawed, and
Speaker 2: that's why it's good to hear about this experience. And
Speaker 2: I can't wait to see this documentary that your friend made.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a nice shortened. Like I said, as I
Speaker 5: was watching this film, and especially that flashback at the
Speaker 5: castle gate, it looks like the castle gate of Broadcastle,
Speaker 5: and there's a streetcar that runs right there, and on
Speaker 5: the other side of where you see that archway, I
Speaker 5: believe would be the Charles River Bridge, which is a
Speaker 5: beautiful bridge with statuary and everything. It's like I said,
Speaker 5: Frogue is a beautiful city. Unlike a lot of European
Speaker 5: cities during World War Two, it did not receive heavy bombings,
Speaker 5: but has a lot of its beautiful architecture that was
Speaker 5: built in the early teen hundreds and even earlier, so
Speaker 5: it wasn't reduced to rubble and then rebuilt. So it's
Speaker 5: a great gem of a place if you're interested in
Speaker 5: really getting a feel for what European cities look like,
Speaker 5: especially that part of the neck of the woods before
Speaker 5: all the heavy bombing the World War Two.
Speaker 3: It's almost a shame that the way that I've approached
Speaker 3: check Timber has been very shotgun. I've just been like, Oh,
Speaker 3: that looks interesting. That looks interesting. I'm doing a little
Speaker 3: magpie type of thing. Oh that sounds like a great title.
Speaker 3: Let's look at that. Oh I've heard this is a
Speaker 3: good movie. Looking at all these scholars of this era
Speaker 3: and country, I'm just like, oh, well, yeah, let's do this.
Speaker 3: Because I just realized, like this is of the anost
Speaker 3: lustic adaptations. This is number two of the big three,
Speaker 3: and we've already covered Transport from Paradise. Also Dita Sexova
Speaker 3: a few years ago Chris and I talked about that,
Speaker 3: and then right in the middle is Diamonds of the Night.
Speaker 3: He of course wrote other things that were adapted or
Speaker 3: had his hand other things. One of those was a
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen film called Listopad A Memory of the Velvet Revolution,
Speaker 3: which is funny because I know that Nemek was big
Speaker 3: friends with Lakoff Hobbell, who eventually became the head of
Speaker 3: Czechoslovakia after the Velvet Revolution. So maybe I should have
Speaker 3: picked a year and started there and worked my way up,
Speaker 3: but I don't know. Hopefully people will understand that none
Speaker 3: of this check timber stuff is in order. It's mostly
Speaker 3: by oh, this looks pretty cool.
Speaker 5: And here's where your tie back into Frank Zappa comes
Speaker 5: was because when Hovel became the president of Czech Republic,
Speaker 5: he had Frank Zappa as a cultural attesha. He loved
Speaker 5: Frank Zappa. He also loved developed underground, and so there's
Speaker 5: actually a Frank Zappa statue in Czechoslovakia.
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, all roads lead back to Frank And honestly,
Speaker 2: I personally love the magpie approach, not just because that
Speaker 2: tends to be my approach at the time, but also
Speaker 2: I think the cool thing what you've been doing with September.
Speaker 2: To think about it, especially even with senniass everybody tends
Speaker 2: to go for like the more like the bigger dogs
Speaker 2: that tend to get focused, like French cinema and British cinema,
Speaker 2: or Italian cinema or maybe even Japanese cinema. So I
Speaker 2: feel like a lot of people have neglected Czech cinema
Speaker 2: until more recently. To me, what you're doing with this month,
Speaker 2: with this theme and just in general, is you're planning
Speaker 2: the right seeds. If one person listens to this episode
Speaker 2: or into any of them and they're like, you know what,
Speaker 2: this sounds like a cool movie. That is till we
Speaker 2: all learn, that's all we all, I think, have gotten
Speaker 2: into various types of art, and through art you learn
Speaker 2: about history too.
Speaker 5: And I would say, Mike, I give you props and
Speaker 5: Rick props because Rick lives over there so he gets it.
Speaker 5: Mainline that before you started doing this Check series, it
Speaker 5: would be like Check film. Oh yeah, meelers Foreman, Right, Yeah,
Speaker 5: didn't he do everything? I almost feel it's like that
Speaker 5: bit Chris Rockhead where the answer is Martin Luther King.
Speaker 5: Who was the woman who refused to give up a
Speaker 5: seat on the bus. Martin Luther King. That's all we
Speaker 5: learned was Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King.
Speaker 5: So it's the same thing where it just becomes like
Speaker 5: Meelers Forman Mieler's forman meelers Foreman. That's only because he's
Speaker 5: known in the English speaking world, because he made the
Speaker 5: films that he made here in the States.
Speaker 3: No, you're right about that. It's been very nice to
Speaker 3: see the way that these actors wind their way through everything.
Speaker 3: I don't know why I never looked up the editor
Speaker 3: of this stuff, but now to see this editor was
Speaker 3: behind probably eighty percent of the films that we've talked
Speaker 3: about in Checktember. Is one guy editing all of those,
Speaker 3: which is wild to think about.
Speaker 2: That's amazing, especially because hell often can you say that
Speaker 2: about a group of fens of films? Like editors, I
Speaker 2: always feel like they're almost like the basis of the drums,
Speaker 2: your rhythm section. Often built the spine to hold up
Speaker 2: the body of a musical piece. Editors build the rhythm.
Speaker 2: Editors are in some ways almost more crucial, I think
Speaker 2: at times than maybe the director. Oh it's the director
Speaker 2: is also the editor. But editors are so crucial. But
Speaker 2: they're very much like the underdogs, almost even more than writers.
Speaker 2: It's so I love that you got so into this
Speaker 2: that you're like, wait a minute, who's the editor on this?
Speaker 2: And then you're like, holy shit, I've seen so much
Speaker 2: of its work. I love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and especially for a movie like this where you're
Speaker 3: getting that repetition of things, you're seeing the whole stuff,
Speaker 3: Like there's a repetition with the farmer's wife. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's understandable. But you get shots of the one kid
Speaker 3: has a problem with his foot, Madislav has a problem
Speaker 3: with his foot, So you get that, and then you
Speaker 3: come back to it and you see the one kid
Speaker 3: taking the other cadew and you see that a few times,
Speaker 3: even the way that this movie ends, And I'm glad
Speaker 3: I said spoilers before do they get shot?
Speaker 5: Do they escape?
Speaker 3: Because you get to see them laying on the ground,
Speaker 3: but then you also get to see them running away
Speaker 3: as well. It feels like they have their cake and
Speaker 3: eat it too, and then right towards the end you
Speaker 3: also see them jumping off of the train again. So
Speaker 3: it just it's it could be a never ending loop.
Speaker 3: As far as the way that these kids never escape
Speaker 3: or they always escape.
Speaker 2: I can't remember which reviewer it was, but in the
Speaker 2: packet that you said as one reviewer compared them to Sissipus,
Speaker 2: that really stuck with me because and Rob listeners, Rob
Speaker 2: has a tattoo. You want to explain it, because I'm
Speaker 2: not going to do it test this yet.
Speaker 5: I have Sisyphis on my arm.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 5: Yes, as you were saying, this is where it crosses
Speaker 5: over into not being so historically specific, where it can
Speaker 5: become philosophical, it can be existential, it can be absurdist.
Speaker 5: In the yess of Sissifus and Camu.
Speaker 3: You take away the swastika on these people's armbands, like
Speaker 3: the two kids and the SS uniforms, and it's really
Speaker 3: like the one old man, I really see the Nazi
Speaker 3: armband on. But if he took those out of the story,
Speaker 3: it's universal. It can just be these two kids being pursued.
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be the World War two set,
Speaker 3: it could be nineteen sixty four set, but it just
Speaker 3: adds more to it and of course shows you what
Speaker 3: the danger is. We immediately know, oh, these guys were
Speaker 3: going to be fucked if they got taken to this camp,
Speaker 3: and maybe they're still fucked right now.
Speaker 2: Well, and it's depressing to think about, but if asso
Speaker 2: there's so many instances throughout history and including right now
Speaker 2: present time where any groups, various groups of people in
Speaker 2: various countries are being othered and being attacked and being targeted.
Speaker 2: And this is why art is so important, because sometimes
Speaker 2: art is the thing that helps you. Sometimes it can
Speaker 2: help you be the thing that kind of gives you
Speaker 2: the bomb where you're like the world is too much,
Speaker 2: But other times it gives you truth. You need to
Speaker 2: fully understand the situation and hopefully be like, yeah, this
Speaker 2: is horrible. We as a speakies evolve, we get those
Speaker 2: opposable thumbs working, we have them on our hands. Maybe
Speaker 2: we can put that on our fucking souls. Here, Aaron
Speaker 2: and just this madness could be stopped very easily, but
Speaker 2: it's like it keeps repeating. But that's why it's so
Speaker 2: great to have films like this for it's you know what,
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you Joan for giving us some truth
Speaker 2: but not giving it to us and some sort of
Speaker 2: spoon fed little gerber baby way by giving us like, yeah,
Speaker 2: there are no easy answers. But that's life. That's that's
Speaker 2: the reality. Sometimes the surrealness is the most real you
Speaker 2: can get, because life is saying and sometimes insane. I
Speaker 2: need a really great way where it is absurd and
Speaker 2: it's hilarious and it's fun and what was it called.
Speaker 2: Other times it's absolutely just a complete horror show.
Speaker 3: I mentioned the cuny TV intros and outros. I'd mentioned
Speaker 3: it on a recent episode. I can't remember which one,
Speaker 3: but I know that I watched one for Women in
Speaker 3: the Dunes and they also had one of these on
Speaker 3: archive dot org for this movie. And it's great because
Speaker 3: Arnold so Lustik is one of the two co hosts
Speaker 3: of this to the guests for this film, so to
Speaker 3: actually hear from Lustig talking about this and it really
Speaker 3: it hurts because they have a very limited time. I
Speaker 3: think it's like fifteen minutes or something. So by the
Speaker 3: end he's like, oh, that's great, but we got to
Speaker 3: go now, and I'm like, no, no, I want to
Speaker 3: hear like a two hours of Lustig talking about this,
Speaker 3: and the other guy is no slouch either, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: give me more of this please, because yeah, the extras
Speaker 3: that are on the Criterion disc I'm very happy about.
Speaker 3: I cannot recommend enough if people are into these check films.
Speaker 3: There's a whole series that came out called The Golden Sixties,
Speaker 3: and they just are basically little, I want to say,
Speaker 3: about half an hour or so, maybe a little bit more.
Speaker 3: I've never noticed the time code because there's just once
Speaker 3: I get in, it just grabs me and takes me
Speaker 3: out a ride. Just this whole series, I want to say,
Speaker 3: it's twenty two episodes, just concentrating each one on a
Speaker 3: different check director from the sixties, and they do, unfortunately,
Speaker 3: really stick to the sixties. So once nineteen seventy comes about,
Speaker 3: it's oh, and then here's what happened in the rest
Speaker 3: of their career. I was like, no, no, no, I
Speaker 3: want to keep following this person, who want to know
Speaker 3: what they're up to today. But they have a great
Speaker 3: interview with nemeck on that episode, and they had a
Speaker 3: shot of the tracking shot, so just to see the
Speaker 3: track that they built. It was almost like a race
Speaker 3: track or something that they laid down on the side
Speaker 3: of this. It's not a mountain, but a very tall hill.
Speaker 3: I can't imagine being one of those poor guys who's
Speaker 3: pushing this fucking cart up this hill, speaking about just
Speaker 3: pushing it and trying to keep up with these kids
Speaker 3: that are running little tilt and you're like, oh my god.
Speaker 3: But just to see that shot of how they did
Speaker 3: the shot, I would have loved to have seen the
Speaker 3: documentary about the making of this movie. Of course that's
Speaker 3: a little bit too much to ask, but wow, just audasty.
Speaker 3: And this was his first film. Nemick had done a
Speaker 3: prior film, had done a couple of shorts in when
Speaker 3: he was going to Famou. One of them was based
Speaker 3: on another elustic story about a loaf of bread, and
Speaker 3: I'd seen clips of that and it's very similar to this,
Speaker 3: of course, But yeah, this was his first feature. It's
Speaker 3: an hour and three minutes. Which I love about this too,
Speaker 3: is that it is I think we've talked longer now
Speaker 3: than we have than the movie actually runs, which is okay,
Speaker 3: but there's so much stuff to it.
Speaker 2: It's amazing, and honestly, it doesn't need to be a
Speaker 2: minute longer, especially the whole gall scene where you're stuck
Speaker 2: with the horrible old man these hunters. That feels like
Speaker 2: it goes on forever, but not in a way where
Speaker 2: you're like, it's a bad filmmaking. It's just so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: It is so uncomfortable, but it should be. Of course,
Speaker 2: that's an hundred percent how it should feel. And that
Speaker 2: is nailed. That was I'm always fascinated when a film
Speaker 2: can make you uncomfortable in that way too. I don't
Speaker 2: know about you, guys. I wouldn't say I'm shaded, but
Speaker 2: it takes a special it takes the type of movie
Speaker 2: to make me feel like oh. And in fact, I
Speaker 2: was talking with a good friend earlier about My Lord
Speaker 2: and Savior Timothy Carey, and there's a scene in a
Speaker 2: killing where his character all of a sudden says something
Speaker 2: really horribly racist to that poor parking attendant, and my
Speaker 2: heart breaks every time. I get so uncomfortable, it gets
Speaker 2: so viscerally uncomfortable. And I've seen that movie so many times.
Speaker 2: It's a great movie. It's honestly probably my favorite Kuper film.
Speaker 2: It's like and and part of that it's not just
Speaker 2: because yeah, obviously I hate racism. The fact we even
Speaker 2: have to say this since this day and it just depressing.
Speaker 2: But it's great filmmaking. It's acting with Timothy Carey, and
Speaker 2: I cannot reverbly be the acturate place a parting tent,
Speaker 2: but he's great. You love that guy, and just the
Speaker 2: way he handles it it makes it even more just like,
Speaker 2: oh God, oh your heart. So when a film you
Speaker 2: agree can make you feel like that, but not in
Speaker 2: any sort of edge lord way, not in any sort
Speaker 2: of super obvious way where you know that that's why
Speaker 2: try to be outrageous. Oh you're adorable. It's like when
Speaker 2: you're a teenager and you really, I'm so angry, I'm
Speaker 2: going to write this depressing poetry, and then you get
Speaker 2: older and you look back on and you're like, Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ did life? Isn't that advice? It's when you see
Speaker 2: somebody do it in a way through just straight storytelling
Speaker 2: and vision in any sort of super obvious way.
Speaker 5: I talked about economy of storytelling, and also this is
Speaker 5: one of those films that it's like the budget on
Speaker 5: this must have been like thirty five dollars. I really
Speaker 5: get the feeling that they made this with whatever they
Speaker 5: had around. There wasn't a lot of money for building
Speaker 5: sets or anything like that. To me, it feels completely
Speaker 5: found in terms of how they did it, and I
Speaker 5: think it flies in the face that people are like, ah,
Speaker 5: I can't be creative because I need this much money
Speaker 5: in order to do something. And it's just as I've
Speaker 5: talked about before on this show. One of my favorite
Speaker 5: movies was made for one hundred dollars in a guy's
Speaker 5: studio apartment. Go with Me First Blood episode to hear
Speaker 5: all about it. But it, to me is about the
Speaker 5: creativity that you go, Okay, I'm up against something and
Speaker 5: I've got to overcome these issues in order to help
Speaker 5: tell a story. And that's really what creativity is about.
Speaker 5: It's about getting excited about the fact that you have
Speaker 5: things in your way and how you get creative about
Speaker 5: getting around them.
Speaker 2: I love it. That's so true, and I do get irritated,
Speaker 2: especially when it's filmmakers being like, oh I need so
Speaker 2: they're like fifty Millioneah. You know, it's like, are you serious?
Speaker 2: Are you feeding a third world nation? Are you making
Speaker 2: a movie?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: When it comes to our necessity is the mother of
Speaker 2: bull invention, Get creative. That's why some of the most
Speaker 2: groundbreaking films are the ones that are low budget, because
Speaker 2: the filmmakers had that passion and that vision, but they
Speaker 2: also didn't have a choice.
Speaker 1: Just do it.
Speaker 2: God at the same age where you know you have
Speaker 2: a good camera on your phone, come on, they just
Speaker 2: do it. Punk rock didn't happen because people waited around
Speaker 2: to have the right money for production. They just did it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they could have learned how to play a fourth chord,
Speaker 3: but they didn't.
Speaker 5: Since we're talking about big budget film, do I need
Speaker 5: to tell my Michael Bay story?
Speaker 3: No, I've heard it enough.
Speaker 5: You don't want to hear it.
Speaker 3: I don't want to hear it.
Speaker 5: Okay, I won't.
Speaker 2: Say that's gonna be my new rings out is Mike
Speaker 2: saying I don't want to hear it.
Speaker 3: If you go back and listen to any of the
Speaker 3: Trauma episodes that we did, which were a lot in
Speaker 3: the day, you will hear Rob's Michael Bay story in there.
Speaker 3: Go ahead, believe, tell you Michael Bay's story. I'm not
Speaker 3: going to cut you off.
Speaker 5: Fine, tell you, stupid little Michael.
Speaker 3: Tell your story. I'm in Cohn with this stupid little
Speaker 3: vampire movie that I made.
Speaker 5: So I was, I was in LA I was in
Speaker 5: Hollywood Store. I was there with Lloyd and Trauma folks.
Speaker 5: So anyway, Michael Bay happened to be at this party
Speaker 5: the Trauma put on. I don't, so I went over
Speaker 5: and talked to him, and I'm like, Hi, how are you?
Speaker 5: And I knew who he was because Armageddon had just
Speaker 5: come out the year before, and so I was talking
Speaker 5: to him about what do you got going on? And
Speaker 5: he goes, oh, what do you do? And I said, oh,
Speaker 5: I have a stupid little low budget vampire fume. He goes,
Speaker 5: I'm working on making this Pearl Harbor movie. They made
Speaker 5: me cut twenty million out of the budget last week.
Speaker 5: And then he says to me, do yourself a favor.
Speaker 5: Stay independent as long as you can, because if you
Speaker 5: come here, you don't get to do what you want
Speaker 5: to do.
Speaker 2: Privilege little cock goblin. I cannot stay on that, dear,
Speaker 2: that's poor little baby. Oh my god, there're people that
Speaker 2: are fucking homeless. Shut up, Michael Bay, little baby, Oh
Speaker 2: twenty million, you get suck on it. Seriously, I'm met Rob.
Speaker 2: Good for you. I would tell that story every chance
Speaker 2: I get. I would tell it at a croker.
Speaker 5: To get it out of him. I said to him,
Speaker 5: I said, I don't know Army getting made six hundred
Speaker 5: million box office, no, six hundred million home video, like
Speaker 5: billion dollars. And this is nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3: Back when a billion dollars meant something.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he goes about that much, goes, they're making me
Speaker 5: cut alls out of this movie. And then he was
Speaker 5: just like, eh, don't come here. Stay independent as long
Speaker 5: as you can.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, stay a dependent that way. I
Speaker 2: don't know what ever, fuck him, I'm mad now. Michael
Speaker 2: Bay go, yeah, yeah, it go sexually harassed Megan Fox. Yeah,
Speaker 2: good lord.
Speaker 5: But but meanwhile in Czech Republic thirty years before, they're
Speaker 5: making movies on a buck and a half, yeah, and
Speaker 5: doing really interesting shit. I'm gonna paraphrase, but I remember
Speaker 5: when I was in Cannon, someone went to go see
Speaker 5: this new Dariyo Argentina film.
Speaker 3: Story I'm talking about, okay.
Speaker 5: And it was one of the Trauma guys, and he goes,
Speaker 5: what did you think of the new Dary Argento film?
Speaker 5: And he goes, hey, man, bad Dario Argento film is
Speaker 5: better than a good Michael Bay film Mayday.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's oh. And I've seen some little Vertno,
Speaker 2: I've seen some questionable shit, but I would take it over.
Speaker 2: You're right, I would take it. God. I mean it's
Speaker 2: still yeah Armageddon gross. When you take a movie and
Speaker 2: put Steve or Shimmy in it and I'm still disgusted,
Speaker 2: you've had failed there.
Speaker 5: Just just remember, stay independent as long as you can.
Speaker 5: You don't get to do what you want.
Speaker 3: Was Michael Bay ever independent? It feels like that guy
Speaker 3: was born making multi billion dollar films.
Speaker 5: You do know the rumor though about his lineage. No,
Speaker 5: there was a rumor going around for many years that
Speaker 5: he was the son of John Frankenheimer. That's right. I
Speaker 5: don't believe that that's true.
Speaker 2: He started that rumor, you know he did. He probably like, hey, kid,
Speaker 2: a real dad's job breaking Himer. Yeah, I don't know's
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't. Money is so often in this
Speaker 2: life given to the unworthy, so fuck it, make arden.
Speaker 5: Yeah, money is given to the unworthy, and youth is
Speaker 5: wasted on the young, So that's life.
Speaker 3: I did not realize that Michael Bay was a video
Speaker 3: director before he became I knew he did commercials. I
Speaker 3: remember he did the Got Milk Aaron Burr commercial, but
Speaker 3: he also did a ton of videos including I Can
Speaker 3: Do Anything for Love, but I won't do that, and
Speaker 3: also the vinyls.
Speaker 2: I touched myself, so I hate the fact that he
Speaker 2: was in a room with Chrissy Amphlet. I love the vinyls.
Speaker 2: That makes me hate him even more.
Speaker 5: I completely sidetracked this entire show. I felt feel free
Speaker 5: to cut all this out.
Speaker 3: Don't cut any of this, I won't cut away.
Speaker 2: Also the Meatlock video. I don't know if you gentlemen
Speaker 2: remember the hilarious twist in that where the love of
Speaker 2: the fair maiden turns the beast into meat loaf. That's
Speaker 2: just funny. It's beel. That shit is hilarious. That's just hilarious.
Speaker 2: I would have loved where she would have been like,
Speaker 2: I don't know. This makes to think of the rip
Speaker 2: Shelley of all. But there was the Beauty of the Beast.
Speaker 2: Episode of that was kaust Kinski as the Beast. I
Speaker 2: watched in college because that was in my mad kus
Speaker 2: Kinski phase and my friend Jen when he turns into class,
Speaker 2: my friend Schid was like, oh God, he's not cute,
Speaker 2: he's creepy. I was offended because I'm like, Klaus Kotsy
Speaker 2: is a great actor. But I look back on it
Speaker 2: now and I'm like, you know what, she was right, Oh,
Speaker 2: but there's.
Speaker 3: No Robbie Benson. I'll tell you that.
Speaker 2: God, he's way better than Robbie Benson. I'm sorry, I
Speaker 2: know I can't with Robbie Bey I brought anyways, it
Speaker 2: seems nice. But I'm glad though Robbie brought all this
Speaker 2: up because honestly, we can leron this very easily because
Speaker 2: arnestly Yahnamic are the real deal. And this guy was
Speaker 2: not in any cushy situation to make films at any
Speaker 2: point of his life. But he did it, and he
Speaker 2: made films that we're talking about today. That's the thing.
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, most people aren't going
Speaker 2: to talk about how much they were truly moved by
Speaker 2: a lot of bigger budgeted movies that were made with
Speaker 2: test screenings and product placements and all of that. They're
Speaker 2: going to talk about the films that changed them forever,
Speaker 2: part of them forever, and this is one of them.
Speaker 3: Well, I doubt that very much of this was shot
Speaker 3: on a sound stage. And I know when you come
Speaker 3: to partying the guests that was all shot out doors,
Speaker 3: and a lot of Martyrs of the of Love that
Speaker 3: I remember was also shot out doors. So it's not
Speaker 3: like he's making easy films either. He's not like set bound,
Speaker 3: controlling the lights, controlling all this stuff. It's amazing how
Speaker 3: good this picture looks for being shot in the way
Speaker 3: that it's being shot. And yet I can't imagine how
Speaker 3: many days this was to shoot. It feels like it
Speaker 3: was very quick to do and just yeah, very low budget,
Speaker 3: but just so scrappy and just so utra with the
Speaker 3: way that it's put together. I can't say enough nice
Speaker 3: things about this movie. All Right, we're gonna take a
Speaker 3: break and play a preview for next week's show. Right
Speaker 3: after these brief messages.
Speaker 6: The yodinsa NAPOOSI majes no to Dizzily regime Dizzily misami Ranika.
Speaker 3: That's right, Cheptember twenty twenty four continues next week when
Speaker 3: they look at a Slovakian film three twenty two. Until then,
Speaker 3: I one thing my co host Robin Heather and I
Speaker 3: know that y'all were both recently on our seven hundredth
Speaker 3: episode to talk about Colligular the Ultimate Cut. But for
Speaker 3: folks who haven't made it all the way through that
Speaker 3: four hour episode, what have you been up to lately?
Speaker 1: Heather?
Speaker 2: I was so hoping you would be like, what's wrong
Speaker 2: with you? People finished the Caligula, which it is a
Speaker 2: great episode. Actually you mentioned see you, see you and
Speaker 2: why we mentioned that on a recent episode of Protection Booth,
Speaker 2: I believe on Spirit.
Speaker 3: Of the Bee Hive, thank you, That's what it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no and no, because you said that in my
Speaker 2: brain was like, oh, which if I listen, if you
Speaker 2: have a checked that episode out, please do. It's me
Speaker 2: Robert Bellissimo, who's fantastic and of course our lovely Captain
Speaker 2: and chief cook here. I was also recently an episode
Speaker 2: of Movies from Hell Podcasts where I got to talk
Speaker 2: about work and Stee even Sadian so little little inner work.
Speaker 2: And of course, as I did mention on the Khalil episode,
Speaker 2: there is any blu ray out through Saturn's Core called
Speaker 2: A World is Drowning and Going to Hell, which is
Speaker 2: the underground films of Richard Baylor. Not only do I
Speaker 2: have an essay on that release, and I do the
Speaker 2: commentary track for Serseium delectus. It's a great set, and
Speaker 2: Richard Baylor is a very very underground's the word. But
Speaker 2: I love that this is out. He's such a fascinating director.
Speaker 2: His work is challenging, it's evocative, it's got such grit
Speaker 2: to it and such a fire to it. I think
Speaker 2: he's a very special director. I'm really excited for people
Speaker 2: to check his work out. Otherwise, you can find me
Speaker 2: over at linktree dot com or slash Moto. Heather, you'll
Speaker 2: find my website, my Patreon in all sorts of assorted sundry.
Speaker 3: Goodies and rob how about yourself.
Speaker 5: Well, while Heather's doing everything, I'm doing nothing. So it's true. No,
Speaker 5: I've just been hanging out in the desert and I've
Speaker 5: written two scripts in the past six months. But outside
Speaker 5: of that, there's nothing for anywhere for you to go.
Speaker 5: There's nothing buy, there's no read. If you just want
Speaker 5: to send well wishes, please do than.
Speaker 3: I went to your website the other day and it's
Speaker 3: down for maintenance.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, Kenny, perpetuity.
Speaker 3: Oh, I was hoping to see all those sexy pictures
Speaker 3: of you again.
Speaker 5: Only okay, I can't give it away. Not that people
Speaker 5: don't want it, but in this economy, exactly, I can't
Speaker 5: afford it.
Speaker 2: I'm excited about your scripts. I don't know if any
Speaker 2: of the listeners have been lucky. Rob's a fantastic writer
Speaker 2: and a very talented mind, so I'm excited to see
Speaker 2: where you're cooking up. Also, writing the script is fucking hard.
Speaker 2: Do not sell yourself short. I don't know anything, okay,
Speaker 2: Captain Humble, come on you.
Speaker 5: I don't know anything, but I know everything, so that's okay.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much folks for being on the show.
Speaker 3: Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear
Speaker 3: more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some
Speaker 3: of the other shows that I work on. There are
Speaker 3: all available at readinglymedia dot com. Thanks especially to our
Speaker 3: Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit
Speaker 3: patreon dot com slash Projection Booth. Every donation we get
Speaker 3: helps the Projection Booth take over the world.
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