WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.439 Get value. You can't argue with at Tesco with their 2 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:05.559 amazing club card prices. Serve up something special with our 3 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:08.320 finest meal deal for two stirring one main, two sides 4 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:11.240 and dessert for only sixteen euro like succulent board, be 5 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.119 approved Irish eining, the striploin steaks with pepper corn butter 6 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:18.000 or delicious Irish chicken Parmesana served with creamy potato gretam 7 00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:21.600 and her mix of rainbow root vegetables and enjoy Goozillionaire 8 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:24.960 or Soldier caramel cheesecake. Can't argue with that shop in 9 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:28.559 store or online. Tesco every little helps available the most 10 00:00:28.600 --> 00:00:30.320 doores prices very in express. 11 00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:35.000 Bonnantma good bugga Onnolu, the haartnir, the holla, the haemena 12 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:40.759 a hecl ah ersuenetre orrasloncela dani the tain Knudovshu, the 13 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:45.479 wild kil Nakatarhu lahulish humperodes on uderos or raslanse is 14 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:50.920 phaser Latgan's throw, Tasha Tapa, siranashka agus nyavl ande erfad 15 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:55.119 is fugum more teyrig h i a punk i e 16 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:59.520 is collactrilala a on tudoros or raslanse if we Reelta Snaheren. 17 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:02.520 Oh hey, it's that second hole that you have to 18 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:05.159 carve into a can of pineapple juice in order to 19 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:07.959 get the first one to glob out. Alli Warard back 20 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:10.079 with an episode of Ologies. You Better not sleep on. 21 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:13.560 You're about to get walloped with excitement and passion and 22 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:18.159 gossip about drugs and dogs and aliens and how it 23 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:22.599 all relates to these tiny goofy dick shaped flatworms. You 24 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.560 know you're gonna do tomorrow. Tomorrow You're gonna paint an 25 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:28.239 airbrush mural on the hood of your car. That just says, 26 00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:31.120 I goddamn love plenarians. Look before we get you there. 27 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:33.719 Let's thank the folks at patreon dot com slash Ologies. 28 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:36.079 They send in as little as twenty five cents an episode, 29 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:38.439 and they get to ask questions. Thanks also to everyone 30 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:41.480 who is sending this episode to friends and family despite 31 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:43.159 the fact that it is about worms and it is 32 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:45.560 not safe for work. Thanks to everyone who rates and 33 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:47.879 subscribes and of course reviews. You know, I pick a 34 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:51.439 new one each week to read, and this week, Obsessed 35 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.879 with Science O six says, oh hey, I hate all podcasts, 36 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:58.000 but this one it's amazing. Thank you, Ali, I hope 37 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:00.359 you read this. Obsessed with science so six I did 38 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:04.480 read it. Also, Happy birthday. Okay, let's get into it. Plenariology, 39 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.439 it's indeed a thing. It's the study of plenarians, which 40 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.639 are a class of free live in free wheel and flatworms. 41 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:13.840 And the word plenaria comes from the Latin for on 42 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:17.159 level ground. Because these things look like if you miniaturized 43 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.199 a human penis and cranked it through the rollers of 44 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:25.039 Aposta machine, flat phallic, little triangle shaped head that contains 45 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:28.719 tiny brains to boot. So this ologist has studied them 46 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:31.400 for years and we met via Twitter and he is 47 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:34.159 a gem. So he's an associate professor of biology at 48 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:38.479 Westchester University in Pennsylvania, an author of the popular science 49 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:42.319 book The First Brain, The Neuroscience of Plenarians. He also 50 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:46.240 wrote Strange Survivors, How Organisms attack and defend in the 51 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.439 Game of Life. And he's working on a new book 52 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:52.280 about drunk dolphins No joke do out next year. So 53 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.000 he got his bachelor's degree in general sciences and his 54 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.840 master's in biokam before heading to Cornell for his PhD. 55 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.879 And we talk about what makes a brain. The personalities 56 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:08.520 of clones, the sexiest underwater Olympic sport, limb regeneration, and 57 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:12.240 how these simple little creatures are helping solve medical mysteries. 58 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:17.360 With your new favorite plnariologist, doctor one Pegan. 59 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:39.439 I'm actually going fanboy with this effort about your podcast 60 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.479 for a long time, and it's really cool. 61 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:45.000 When you tweeted it me, I was like a whole 62 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:48.560 episode on plnaria This is that's amazing. I want to 63 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:55.120 do that now. How long have you been studying plinariology 64 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:55.800 if you will? 65 00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:59.120 Okay, So I have a confession to make right off 66 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:04.280 the start. I am an accidental planariologist, as it were. 67 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:10.560 I've never taken a zoology course. My training is mainly 68 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:16.399 biochemistry and pharmacology. I knew a biology, and I came 69 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:20.120 to planarians. I don't know. I'd like to call it 70 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:23.040 faith if you will. First of all, I was a 71 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:25.879 non traditional student. I went back to school at thirty 72 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:30.920 five for my PhD. Okay, So I did my bachelor's 73 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:36.040 work for several years. I got married, started having kids 74 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:41.439 with my wife helped, of course, You're welcome. Then I 75 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:46.839 did my master's working full time, and you know, I 76 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:50.399 was very fortunate to have very good supervisors. But I 77 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:54.279 always wanted to do the PhD. But I needed to work, Okay, 78 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:58.519 I had a family. So when I was thirty five, 79 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.439 a person who ended up being my PhD advisor came 80 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.560 to Puerto Rico and Puerto Rican by the way, I 81 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:09.319 was born and raised in Puerto Rico, and I did 82 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:14.040 all my education up until the masters there. So a 83 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:19.040 collaborator from my advisors in Puerto Rico came to visit 84 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:22.720 and everything, and he just happened to recruit a students 85 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:27.720 for Cornell University. So he actively tried to recruit me. 86 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:33.319 I applied, they accepted me, I got a fellowship, and well, 87 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:36.560 I packed my family and I went, oh, my gosh. 88 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:41.480 Wow. So, before becoming a professor at Westchester University, onnegat 89 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:45.360 his PhD in pharmacology from Cornell University, studying in a 90 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:49.600 biochemistry lab with the brilliant doctor George Harris, a chemist. 91 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:54.800 At the time, I was studying the dopamine transporter and 92 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:58.040 its relationship to cocaine, the abuse drug. 93 00:05:58.199 --> 00:05:58.399 Wow. 94 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:03.720 I saw a paper from researcher at Temple University about 95 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:08.800 how planarians got showed addiction to cocaine. 96 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:12.920 What Yeah, coca planarians. 97 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:16.199 Yes, cocae planarians, and later on we learned that we 98 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:20.879 can do that with nicotine, metamphetamines and whatever. So it's 99 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:24.759 really fun. Well for them, I'll have what she is having. 100 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:28.240 I knew about planarians, but very peripherally. I know that 101 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:31.160 you cut their heads off, they will grow it back 102 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:33.240 and whatnot. So I got very excited, and I went 103 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:36.720 to my advisor and I will George, guess what we 104 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:39.079 can do these experiments in planary But but of course 105 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:42.680 he was a physical chemist, you know, something slimy, an animal. 106 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:46.399 What he essentially said, no, he says something like in 107 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:49.199 the in the lines of well, when you have your 108 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:54.040 own lab, you can do and that's precisely what I 109 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:56.319 did essentially. 110 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.519 Oh my gosh. And how long have you been studying 111 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:00.040 them now. 112 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:05.439 Well, it's been almost fifteen years now. I started at 113 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:09.040 Westchester University in Pennsylvania in two thousand and five. They 114 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.959 foster research. And that's the best of both words, because 115 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:17.360 I love teaching because you know, if we think about 116 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.160 it in the same way, I get paid to read 117 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.560 about what I like, to talk about what I like 118 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:29.959 under students have to listen to me. Okay, So it's awesome. 119 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:34.160 His students, according to Internet chatter, love this dude. Now, Okay, 120 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:37.279 he was working on his PhD and needed a model 121 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:40.120 for research that was relatively cheap, and he was running 122 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:43.160 some controls and found that a compound he used in 123 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.600 the controls actually changed the plenarian behavior. And he calls 124 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.040 this wormy event a serendipitous observation. 125 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:57.199 So, as any half decent scientist does, I run my 126 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:03.279 controls with just the MSO and something weird happening to 127 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:06.959 the behaviors of the planarian. So weird. And the first 128 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.560 paper of the lab was about the effect of the 129 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:10.839 MZO in planarians. 130 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.920 And you know, going back a step or two, what 131 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:17.600 is a planarian? I know it is a flatworm, but 132 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:20.040 can you describe it for someone who's maybe never seen one, 133 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:21.839 Like how big are they? Where do they live? Oh? 134 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:26.120 Well, it depends on the type of planarians. So planetariums 135 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:31.040 literally mean flatworm, but they describe a wide variety of species. 136 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:36.679 There are marine versions, they're called polyplats, and they are 137 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:42.000 some of the most beautiful worms in the sea. Oh so, 138 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:46.519 the ones that I work with are freshwater planarians, and 139 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:53.320 many of those species they possess a very interesting property. 140 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:55.480 They are the ones that you can cut their heads off. 141 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:59.559 They will regrow any part of their bodies, including their brain, 142 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:01.200 in the right way. 143 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:03.720 How are they even doing that? 144 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:04.600 Oh? 145 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.879 Well, if you figured it out, you'll get a nobel price, 146 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:12.080 and you mention me in your in your in your speed. 147 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:12.799 Fair enough. 148 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:19.080 Well, I think you've noticed that I'm very enthusiastic about 149 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:19.759 what I do. 150 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:24.080 I love it. Let's say that you wanted to look 151 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.799 at it, look for a planaria. Where is a good 152 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:29.360 place to look? Are they in puddles? Are they under rocks? 153 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:30.639 Do you need a microscope? 154 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:31.200 No? 155 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.759 No, because many it depends on the species. That the 156 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:38.679 typical ones they're about maybe an inch loan a couple 157 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:43.759 of centimeters long. Every planarian it's actually a carnivore. They're predators, 158 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:50.480 so they even eat each other happily. They're cannibals. Even so, 159 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:53.840 what a very good way to hunt for them? As 160 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:57.559 it were, You get like a little container, You poke 161 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:00.559 holes in the lid, put a piece of meat inside 162 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:04.080 of it, and live it in the water, and within 163 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:05.759 a short period of time there's going to be a 164 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:08.240 bunch of stuff, including planarias. 165 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:08.519 Wow. 166 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.840 But the ones that I work with. They're available commercially, 167 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:16.279 I can buy them and that's for lab use, right, yes, yeah, 168 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:21.480 and they are usedful in many schools for demonstration experiments 169 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:26.519 and activities like that. I just throw drugs at them 170 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:28.080 and see what happened. 171 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:33.000 And now, what kind of brains do they have? You 172 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:35.480 mentioned they can even regrow their brains, and obviously if 173 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:38.679 they're reacting to chemicals and drugs, they have a nervous system. 174 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:40.360 Like what's their anatomy like? 175 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:45.440 They have relatively sophisticated brains for a very small invertebrate, 176 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:49.559 and they are capable of learning. They have many of 177 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:51.519 the same neurotransmitters that we have. 178 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:52.480 Wow. 179 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:57.039 And probably one of the most interesting anatomical characteristics of 180 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:01.200 planarians is that they have what it's called a bilob 181 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.960 or brain just pretty much like us. Well, not exactly 182 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:08.399 that couse, but you know what I mean. With two lobes, okay, 183 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:14.919 join together, and they instead of having a single spinal cord, 184 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:19.639 they have two, one per each lobe, and those spinal 185 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.600 cords are connected by nerve fibers. They're really cool. They're 186 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:24.919 really really cool. Wow. 187 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:29.039 And now if you, let's say, were to injure a planaria. 188 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:31.600 If a planaria were to get bisected, does it matter 189 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:34.840 where they're cut and they can regenerate. 190 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.279 Well, you can cut it in any way you want. 191 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:39.840 But that's a very good question because there's a part 192 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:44.320 of the planarium that does not regenerate and that you're 193 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:45.120 gonna love this one. 194 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:45.519 Okay. 195 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:52.399 Planarians eat via the same orifice where they defecate. No, 196 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:57.120 yes they do, Yes they do. And they extend a 197 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.919 tube called the proboscis, and that's how they eat, like 198 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.879 an alien in a movie. Okay, they stick it in 199 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:07.120 the prey and they suck it dry. Oh my god, 200 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.840 and I've seen that in my laboratory. They rub themselves 201 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:14.679 around a water fleece dafnia like a snake and they 202 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:18.440 do that. Oh wow. You can cut almost every part 203 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.080 of the anatomy of the planarian except the proboskis. That 204 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:23.399 part does not regenerate. 205 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:27.360 Okay, quick aside. When I hear proboscis, I think like 206 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:30.879 mouth area. I think a nose hose. But I look 207 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:33.720 this up and in a planaria it's on the belly 208 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:36.480 near the back end, kind of like if you had 209 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:39.559 a pool noodle coming out of your navel. But you 210 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:41.960 could shit out of it, and then five minutes later 211 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:44.039 you could use it to slurp up the body of 212 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:46.960 your uncle like he was a frappuccino. Now, a lot 213 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:50.799 of freshwater planarians are like a modeled peachy brown, but 214 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:56.480 fluttering marine ones can be gorgeously brightly colored to kind 215 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.480 of advertise that they'll poison the hell out of their enemies. Now, 216 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:02.600 paris breathe through their skin, and they don't have a 217 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.279 circulatory system, so their gut kind of acts like a 218 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:08.600 New York subway map to deliver their nutrients. And of 219 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:12.399 course they have the nubbins of an early brain. All 220 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:15.360 of these parts are under one of the best warranties 221 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:16.559 in the business. 222 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:20.519 One continues, you can take a piece of the tail, 223 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:24.639 a piece of the head laterally whatever, and they regenerate. 224 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:27.639 They need kind of a minimum of about ten thousand 225 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:32.559 cells to regenerate. That's about maybe I think it's point 226 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:35.399 zero eight cubic millimeters or something like that. 227 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:38.960 And do they ever do work on the DNA to 228 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:42.639 find out if it's the same DNA on both half 229 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:44.559 or does it change at all? 230 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:49.240 Well, absolutely, there's a couple of planarium species which have 231 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:53.120 been sequenced. They have their own genome projects, the ones 232 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:57.159 that I use commercially. They are beginning to be sequenced 233 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:02.200 a little bit. But one curious characteristic of any flatworm 234 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:07.320 is that they don't have the exact genetic code as 235 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:08.080 everything else. 236 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:13.039 Apparently there's something called the alternative flatworm mitochondrial code that 237 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.759 encodes for different amino acids than most other creatures. Is 238 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:19.679 this a Glitchens simulation? Are they aliens? 239 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.200 Nobody knows why, but it's a rather interesting mystery. 240 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:28.240 Yes, And now how are they responding to different chemicals 241 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.320 and drugs that you're administering them? 242 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.200 All right? So the beauty of those is that they 243 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:39.080 also display sophisticated behaviors. Okay, they are very sensitive to 244 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:42.000 the environment. Of course, if you're small, if you are 245 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:46.879 a centimeter long, okay, so little, you're small, you're not venomous, 246 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:49.799 you cannot fly, you're not fast. What do you do? 247 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.399 You hide? Okay? So for that reason, they tend to 248 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:59.200 shy away from the light. Okay, so they go to 249 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.840 the proverb your dark side as it works. So they 250 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.039 like to hide. You can actually use that to your 251 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:12.039 advantage in behavioral experiments. Also, you can actually measure their 252 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:17.399 gliding velocity because they glide at the bottom of a pit, 253 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.600 tridish or any type of container like that, and they 254 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:26.559 can glide with certain speeds many compounds, they actually decrease 255 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:27.960 their velocity. 256 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.960 Okay, I looked into this, and plenaria can glide by 257 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:36.080 beating little sillier projections in a layer of ukis and 258 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:38.840 kind of like a cop on New Year's Eve. Observing 259 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:42.200 locomotion can say a lot about how loaded they are. 260 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:46.879 Another type of response is a sea Shure like response, 261 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:49.600 meaning that, for example, if you give them a certain 262 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:54.440 compound in relatively toxic amounts, they go into what, for 263 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:59.279 all intents and purposes are Sei Shure like movements, and 264 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:02.679 you can quite defy those. Oh wow, yeah, we use 265 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:05.279 all of those techniques in my laboratory. 266 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:11.080 And is there one substance in particular that surprised you 267 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:12.279 how they reacted? 268 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:18.600 Well, one would would not expect to observe social anthropomorphizing 269 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:24.759 property as addiction, but planarians can get addicted to substances, right, 270 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.919 So if you give them nicotin or cocaine for instance, 271 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.799 or I don't know, even sugar, right, and you allow 272 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.840 them to that substance to soak in in the water, 273 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.159 for a while. Then you take the substance away, they 274 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:45.639 go into something very much like withdrawal. They get the shakes, 275 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:49.759 they start swimming around like crazy, they bomp their heads 276 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:52.600 back and forth, and you can quantify that you can 277 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:59.679 actually train those planarians to respond to classically substance that 278 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:05.200 are used by people. And this again they displace surprisingly 279 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:10.079 similar behaviors again as if they were. It is a 280 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:11.319 beautiful model for that. 281 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.599 And how many different experiments do you have going on 282 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:17.160 at once, Like what is a typical day in the 283 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:18.960 lifelike of a plenariologist. 284 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.559 Well, you've got to have your students help you out. 285 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:25.680 And that's something that I wanted to say right off 286 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.759 the better shout out to all my students. I've had 287 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.559 many over the years. Right now, I had to close 288 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:35.759 the lab because of the worldwide reality that we are 289 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:40.000 living in and I miss them terribly, So hello to 290 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:43.759 all the Pagan lab whenever you listen to this. We try, 291 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.240 of course to run the appropriate controls and to plan 292 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:51.119 ahead very well the experiments that we do, and once 293 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.599 we obtain the data, the fund begins because we can 294 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.200 actually analyze it, we can generate graphs, we can do 295 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:03.359 all the type of things. And then if we get 296 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:08.279 a baseline of the effects that nicotine does two planarium, 297 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:13.759 for example, we can actually screen substances that may counteract 298 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:17.279 those effects. And that's what we have done with substances 299 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.519 like cocaine and nicotine and some others. 300 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.279 I'm curious too if that makes you consider any of 301 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.160 your own behaviors in your own life, Like, do you 302 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:30.079 ever see how like plenarians react to sugar decide you 303 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:31.319 need to cut back on tona? 304 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:36.480 Oh well, I'm addicted to a certain type of beverage 305 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:42.440 that it's served in a coffee shop that rhymes with bogs. Okay, okay, 306 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:47.720 so I can relate to that. Okay. But planarians, again, 307 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:52.000 they cannot use a straw, but they can they reacting 308 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:56.079 in ways that will allow us to figure out, well, 309 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:03.119 disciplinaria is certainly uncomfortable in the absence of certain chemical stimulus. 310 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:06.599 Once we quantify that, we can see the difference that 311 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.519 it makes. By adding I don't know a proverbial. 312 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:13.359 Antidote, one says that the aim of the lab isn't 313 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.680 to study addiction per se, but to figure out a 314 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.640 way to counteract the toxicity of things like nicotine or cocaine. 315 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.480 So working with these worms, a simpler model than a 316 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:28.000 lot of labs, is saving lives. Now for more on addiction, 317 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:31.920 listen to the Molecular Neurobiology episode with doctor Crystal Tilworth 318 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.839 or Addictionology with Aaron Precy. 319 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:39.000 Because addiction is a very complex phenomenon and well, we 320 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.200 can get addicted to anything, not only chemicals or food. 321 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:45.599 We can get addicted to I don't know, gambling, okay, 322 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:50.039 things like that, So it's much more complex. But we 323 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.240 can study toxicity and the toxicity of such substances using planarians, 324 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:59.880 and we can actually use terms like addiction and withdrawal 325 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:05.039 with an asterisk as it were, because again it's benyanthropomorphic. 326 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:10.480 We don't know what a planarian thinks you'll see or 327 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:14.079 how it feels. And by the way, did you know? 328 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.200 And this is something that I learned literally about a 329 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.400 week ago. Science Twitter is amazing because I got a 330 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:25.759 very interesting paper from a colleague in Australia who I 331 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:32.000 met from Twitter. Her name is Shawnee Hmond from Troue 332 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.519 University in Australia and she studies sleep in planarians. 333 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:41.559 So doctor Shawnie Amand's team discovered that plenarians do sleep 334 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:46.000 now the studies conclusions read quote. Despite simplicity, in active 335 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:49.920 flatworms appeared to be sleeping. Specifically, quiescence was organized in 336 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.640 a circadian manner, occurring largely during the daytime. So do 337 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.880 not invite a planarian to lunch. They will oversleep. They 338 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.000 will text on my way before they haveing been love 339 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.599 the house, and you're party will not be seated until 340 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:05.039 they arrive. You remember brunch. I don't. 341 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:07.960 So I want to thank her for sending me a 342 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:12.160 paper that I'm geeking all the way about it because 343 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:16.400 I didn't know that planarian slip. And recently I heard 344 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:21.440 your episode about chronobiology and circadion are reading and everything, 345 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:25.920 so you know that about the super chismatic nuclei and 346 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:28.920 all these type of things. I'm pretty sure planarians have 347 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:33.759 something like that. Okay, so but we don't know. So anyway, 348 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:36.440 I want to thank Seanny for the paper. I'm reading 349 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.640 it and enjoying it. That's the beauty of it. I'm 350 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.759 telling you, I'm fifty five and I feel like a 351 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:46.440 kid learning all these type of things. 352 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:50.400 Science hero. You didn't know you needed. Now from a 353 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:54.920 pharmacological perspective, he's able to use simpler animal models these 354 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.480 platforms rather than higher vertebrates. But for what kind of stuff? 355 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.680 And what about using planarians in terms of addictionary substance, 356 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.200 like with the opiate issues that are kind of plaguing 357 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:07.880 a lot of the world. Does that are they Is 358 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:09.079 that applicable to them as well? 359 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:14.160 Yes? Absolutely, because they have similar receptors to Opis that 360 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.480 like the ones that we have and other groups, particularly 361 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.839 the groups at Temple University doctor Bob Rafa, doctor Scott Roles, 362 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.839 they're working on that. And there's the things that planarians 363 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:32.640 were traditionally used in regeneration and developmental biology, but it 364 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:38.279 was only relatively recently that they have been kind of 365 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:44.759 popular as an animal model in pharmacology. And that's something 366 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:49.880 that I'm very happy to say that we are one 367 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.279 of the few groups that do that. But it's getting 368 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:58.119 even more popular and it makes sense. It's applicable to 369 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:04.119 many areas, and to have such a simple yet powerful model, 370 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:07.359 it's really cool. There's no other two other way to 371 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:07.680 say it. 372 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:11.000 Let's just be be back this up a little to 373 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:15.559 his history and now you were interested not in necessarily 374 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.039 plenarians growing up, but were you interested in how the 375 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.880 brain works? What kind of triggered that in you? 376 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:26.160 Well, there was never any doubt whatsoever that I was 377 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.480 going to end up in science. I can give you 378 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:34.240 an example. When I was about maybe four or five 379 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:39.599 years old, I don't remember, but my mom told me 380 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:46.559 that I asked her whether God invented microscopes. That was 381 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:48.920 my question at five years old, Just to give you 382 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:54.319 that idea. So and again, I went to college, and 383 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:59.839 actually my bachelors is in general science, in part because 384 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:03.880 I couldn't commit. I liked everything. I took biochemistry, I 385 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.920 took astronomy, I took genetics. I never took zoology, as 386 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:13.039 I told you. But you know what can I tell you? 387 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:16.759 So science is magnificent. 388 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:19.839 I know what about your book, your book, The First Brain, 389 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:24.279 The Neuroscience of Plenarians are How why is it called 390 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:25.240 the first Brain? 391 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:31.000 Okay? So that's another funny story because when I decided 392 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:34.480 to think about writing a book, it was going to 393 00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:37.240 be about planarians and everything. And I like the brain 394 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:41.680 and everything. But I thought about a horrendous title at first. 395 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:44.519 Oh no, you want to hear what it was, Yes, 396 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:46.640 the neuronal worm. 397 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:54.559 The neuronal worm. Catchy sexy titles like that, just fly 398 00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.599 off the shelves. But nevertheless, he took the suggestion of 399 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:00.400 an esteemed colleague, doctor Bob Rafa, and went with title 400 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.839 the first brain now follow genetically. One says the plenarium 401 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:08.599