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Speaker 1: It's human nature to wonder what the chances are of

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any event occurring in our universe. The absence of a

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straightforward answer leaves room for curiosity and speculation. However, the

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claim that this result is highly improbable therefore it cannot

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occur naturally, such as in the fine tuning argument, isn't proof.

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It's a post hot probability fallacy. Dealing any specific combination

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of cards is highly improbable, yet most of the combinations

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that you get aren't thought of.

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Speaker 2: As remarkable in that moment.

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Speaker 1: Claiming significance after the fact demonstrates a misunderstanding of statistics

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and even the basics of probability, especially when those using

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this argument have yet to show any of their work.

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If you want to do the math improve me wrong,

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give us a call because the show is starting now.

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Welcome everyone. Today is September twenty eighth, twenty twenty five.

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I'm your host, Doctor Ben and joining me is Scott

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Dicky and I know what you all are thinking. Talk

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Heathen was earlier on in the day. Well, we're taking

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over this, okay, all right now, this is the atheist experience.

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We are taking over. Uh and I have a little

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video to show you all just explaining exactly what happened.

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Speaker 3: Fake news. That's fake news.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we did not actually tie up J Mike and

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steal the show.

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Speaker 2: But we're here now, We're here for.

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Speaker 1: A great time at The Atheist Experience is a product

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of the Atheist Community of Austin, a five oh one

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c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,

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critical thinking, soular humanism, and the separation of religion and government.

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And this is a call in show. We have our

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lines filling up as we speak, so get your calls

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in if you would like five one two nine two

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four to two, or you can use that tiny nott

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CC link to use your browser if you would like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, call us, let's talk some heathen.

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Speaker 2: All right, we're ready to take our first caller.

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Speaker 3: I'm ready, I'm ready. Let's roll.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's take Zeno from the International Space Station.

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How are you doing, Zeno?

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Speaker 4: It's a troop out here. I was looking out there.

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I think I saw a ghost out the quote window.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like you want to talk about intelligent design.

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Speaker 2: What exactly do you.

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 4: I would try to figure out, like from an agnostic more,

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I'm like neutral more. But you know, I like certain concepts.

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I think pantheism has the hold on it, all the

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evidences evidence in that case being it is the universe.

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But that's another philosophical inquiry.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: The atheists cracked me up because.

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Speaker 5: Y'all have faith, and y'all don't even realize what you

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have faith in.

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Speaker 1: That's the wholes So, you know, instead of instead of

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telling us what you think we believe, how about you

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tell us what you believe and if you know, if

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you're right, maybe we'll change our minds on that.

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Speaker 2: What do you believe?

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Speaker 6: You know?

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Speaker 7: I don't.

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Speaker 4: I don't need to think already know what the atheist

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faith is. There's no evidence of God or no convincing evidence.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, zeno, I want to know. I want to

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know what you think. So tell us what you believe.

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If you're just gonna tell us what you think we

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believed in, I don't think this is a very useful conversation.

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So tell us what you believe, have a discussion with us,

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or or move on to somebody else.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, my belief is it's unknown and unknowable

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right as an agnostic, So you can't claim God doesn't

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exist with the atheist. That's your claim, but you won't

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admit it, right because you don't have the bath.

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Speaker 8: So not at all.

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Speaker 3: Wait, but you don't believe what you just said, and

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you just won't admit it. You believe you believe that

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we Actually, it's ridiculous, Zeno. If you're gonna, if you're

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gonna call us and tell us what we believe, you've

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I can you know we don't need you to do that.

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You know we already know what we believe. And actually

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I would argue that we know better what we believe

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than you. I'm not sure. I've never been to the

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International Space Station, I've never met you. How do you

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know what I believe?

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Speaker 9: Well?

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Speaker 5: What do you believe or disbelieve?

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Speaker 3: I'm asking you the question. You've already stated that I

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believe certain things. I want to know, how do you

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know that? How do you know that's what I believe?

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Or are you just talking out your ass right now?

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Speaker 4: No, I've interviewed several as to have many as friends

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and been debate and.

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Speaker 9: It sit since twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're not people know me?

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Speaker 3: Were any of those people that know me?

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Speaker 4: Okay, so explain your position. Then if that.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't answer my question. So you're a knowledge that you

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actually don't know what you're talking about when you're saying

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what we believe in, what we don't believe is that

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are Can we put that to bed before we move on?

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Speaker 4: Do you not understand the term agnostic?

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Speaker 3: I'll take that as a yes, so we can continue,

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all right, thank you.

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Speaker 4: I'll take god Ever, no.

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Speaker 1: Zeno, I take the position. I take the position of

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agnostic atheism. And I feel like you've had this conversation before,

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and I don't know if this is worth our time

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right now, So I'm gonna.

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Speaker 2: Say goodbye to you right now. Zeno.

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Speaker 1: If you want to call back and have a discussion

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with us instead of about us with us in the room,

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you can give you another chance. But we have other

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people on the line who want to chat.

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Speaker 3: So I think I was trying to present us with

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a paradoxical approach to a discussion, and I think he

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was trying to live up to his namesake there, but

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unfortunately it didn't really didn't really land Zeno's sorry. So yeah,

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so sorry, doctor Ben. Let's move on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no problem. I'm going to jump right to another call.

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Let's talk to Donald he him from Louisiana. Donald, you

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are live on AXP. It sounds like you want to

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talk about a possible interpretation of God that's different than

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a lot of people have come up with. What's your idea, Donald.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I'm trying to lend basically ideas for many philosophers,

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mainly Berkeley, Plato, Aristotle and you in Schopenhauer to basically Okay,

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some of the people I've said were atheists or how

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you would categorize them for their time. But I think,

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for example, show Ben Howard's ideas of like will and representation,

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Uh can't. All you have to do is say that

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the will in his will and representation is bound to

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some kind of cosmic consciousness that can that dictates like

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the perfect forms of things, and you can use ideas

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like the unactualized actualizer to try to explain its its origin.

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But I mean, of course, with this conception there's a

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limit to like how much you can know about about it.

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But would do you have any questions like right now

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or because I have a lot of like axioms.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it sounds like there's kind of this You're

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taking the perspect of a few different philosophers to try

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to synthesize a different interpretation of like God.

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Speaker 2: I'm just questioning is this for you?

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Speaker 1: Is this more of a like philosophical exercise, or does

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do you believe that this impacts your worldview in any way?

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Like do you think that this you're taking these ideas

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and applying them to some kind ofies or is this

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more of a.

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Speaker 2: Like mental exercise.

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Speaker 5: I'd say i'd lead more to a mental exercise, But

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but I mean, I think it's a possible interpretation. I

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doubt it because a lot of the ideas based off

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of it is like I'm heavily relying on Berkeley and

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his idea of that, oh, because all of our senses

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aren't are aren't perfect and stuff that the thing that's

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linking reality together is like the mind of God. And

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I'm using the idea of the an actualized actualizer like

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from Aristotle, which a lot of his things derived from

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that like goes against our ideas of physics like inertia

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and stuff. So and I don't think like I think

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consciousness is emergent from material things, and I don't think

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what people describe as consciousness and the idea of his soul,

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it doesn't make sense to me so but so yeah,

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I lean more way more atheist, but I'm not. We

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just know so little about the universe, and when you

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get into a sometimes when I look at things like

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quantam entanglement or how well math works, and it it

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leaves room for doubt, and I just I just this

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is it doesn't my worldview somewhat. I see this as

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a possibility. I don't see it as a likely one,

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but it's it's high enough to to consider.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha, really and real quick.

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Speaker 1: I do want to let Scott get in here too,

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But I know there are a lot of people in

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the audience who don't necessarily recognize some of these philosophers

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or their specific viewpoints. Could you try to articulate your

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position as if you're talking to like a classroom of students,

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like who may not have heard this before.

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Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, First I would say, there's there is this

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idea from Aristotle of everything has a has a cause

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and effect, but to not have an infinite regress of

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causes he he thinks there is there should be some

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unactualized actualizer. And then other people have uh like Aquinas

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and stuff have used that to like try to explain

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the Christian uh, the Christian God. And then there's he

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and that there's like Plato's ideas of forms and like

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that reality is like if he does an analogy, if

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you're in a cave and there's like shadows from the outside,

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and you can't you can only see the shadows. You

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don't know the forms outside. And he he like points

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to things like geometry, like he thinks there's a real

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perfect triangle out in some realm of forms and stuff.

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And then uh uh. Later philosophers like uh took his

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idea and said from this forms there should be the one.

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And then later it got reinterpreted by like Saint Augustine

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to that one to be the Christian God. And he

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makes an argument that since math and numbers all work

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so well and stuff, is that the thing linking all

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the numbers needs to be conscious. So consciousness is a

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higher a higher plane than physical reality. And then you

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have idealists like Berkeley, like there's this there's a it's

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kind of long. There's like a whole tradition between the

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rationalists and the empiricists, but and talking about how well

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you can rely on your senses versus how well you

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can rely like how well you can rely on induction

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and senses versus how well you can rely on deduction

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that is built off of axioms and Berkeley. Berkeley basically

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his conclusion was, our senses aren't true, really real, and

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for everything to not to be working so well well

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that we are uh, that there is a great awareness

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that is the mind of God. More complicated of this,

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I have to do a shortened version, but yeah, and

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then there's there's young in the collective unconscious which link

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can be linked to play those forms and ideas of

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archetypes and stuff. And if you want to know about that,

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I think many people have heard of Jordan Peterson he

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quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've got a good idea for where

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your position is now. I think this is a great

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one for for Scott to get in on, especially if

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you want to talk about geometry and math.

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Speaker 3: Sure, sure, yeah, Donald, Just quick question here before before

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we dive into that. So are you when you talk

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about a possible interpretation of God, are you referring to

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just like looking and seeing something else in the world

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that doesn't match up with what other people normally refer

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to when they call when they say God or are

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you Are you saying God is really different? Or are

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you making an argument for a god like a being?

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Are you talking still talking about a theistic God, a

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being with a consciousness and intentions and and that kind

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of thing. Is that what you're talking about? Are are

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you really?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: I did?

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Speaker 5: Oh, I didn't need to cut you off.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's fine, Please continue with your thought.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I don't have a fixed definition. I was just

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I first was thinking about this and thinking about these

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different interpretations of God and these different philosophers. But in

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this I'm basicly arguing for a omni present, very extremely

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powerful consciousness that is, that is beyond the limitations of

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time and space and created time and space by being

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an unactualized actualizer, and and things like archetypes of other

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gods and other religions and forms are like are they're

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like union archetypes derived from.

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Speaker 3: This grand grand so rept here Donald, I'm not sure.

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I don't feel like you're addressing my question. It sounded

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to me like at first you were saying you were

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kind of supporting a more traditional view of God, and

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then you kind of went back to well, you know,

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maybe it has to do with you know, Platonism or

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something along those lines. Is that what you're are you

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are you talking about a god or are you just

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saying that? Well, you know, maybe we could mean some

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other things if we use if we said the word god,

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is that what you're trying to get at?

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Speaker 5: Okay, I'm okay, I'm not strictly going with exactly the

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Christian God, but I am saying one conscious being beyond

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space and time, that that has that makes everything possible

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by its will and its observation of things.

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Speaker 3: But okay, I think that's enough that we that we

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can start here. I wanted to address one thing that

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you brought it. You said something about that math works

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or something like that. Could you expand on that? And

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I'm math literate, so please feel free to get as

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much into the details there as you like.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Well, if you if you just look at some

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laws like Fagorian theorem and uh geometric proofs and how

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they they like, you could come to those from pretty

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from from almost from just a few axioms and deductions.

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But they work out into they work in the world,

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and you can see you can see forms of them

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all all the time, and the fact that everything's aim

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h formula and equations. It's it's the amount of order

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in it.

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Speaker 3: Just is are you are you describing the system of

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math as like some kind of of determining the way

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things are and forcing things to be a particular way,

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being prescriptive? Is that what you're saying, is that math

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kind of forces things to work out a certain way?

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And how could that possibly be if unless there's some

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kind of creator god, Is that what you're implying? Because

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I don't know if I would agree that math is

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necessarily prescriptive. I mean, if we think about how we

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develop math, I mean, there's a couple different ways of

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looking at what math is. Okay, as humanity, we've invented

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this mathematical language to describe descriptions of the universe. We

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started out our earliest math was counting things, and we

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counted on our fingers, and we counted with stones and

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so forth, and we developed from there. And so my

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question to you then would be, how can you jump

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to the conclusion that math is prescriptive rather than merely descriptive,

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Because from all evidence from the history of mathematics and

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science for that matter, is that we learn things about

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the universe by observing, and then we draw conclusions for

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what we see. So what it's it's really not the

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case that or at least we can't make the case,

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or rather, I've never seen the case successfully made that

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there's anything outside of the universe that's kind of forcing

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the universe to be this way, not forcing gravity to

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work a particular way, not forcing the Pythagorean theorem to

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work a particular way. We see things the way we

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see the way the universe is, we see that there's patterns,

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we describe those patterns. Then we shouldn't be surprised that

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our descriptions happen to match the universe, right since since

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if we view mathematics and science as a description of

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the universe, of course it should match. It's derived from

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the universe. And so when if you say something like

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how is it that math works, Well, because we saw

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what was there, we described it and then and so

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that's what we're doing, is we're reference saying that description.

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Does that make any sense? Donald, Yes, And.

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Speaker 5: I understand what you're getting at. But some of the math,

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I you can come to it without without going out

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and like using empiricism, you can come to it from

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a few axioms and pure deduction and then that is matching.

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So well, it's one thing if you go, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Donald Ron and like exactly what what Scott is saying though,

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like math, math and science are branches from philosophy, Like

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all of this stemmed like from the same place, and yeah,

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you're gonna see those patterns in reality. Like you keep

321
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going back to the Pythagora and theorem, Like what is

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the context and the usage for the Pythagora and theorem?

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Speaker 2: Do you remember from school?

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Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure it was for building pyramids, and.

325
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Speaker 1: It's a for right triangles, right, like you use the

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patagoray in therem for right triangles. There's a set context

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in which that equation works. You can't apply that to

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some other type of shape because that model was meant

329
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to describe right triangles. So yeah, if you go out

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in the world and you find another right triangle, you're

331
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gonna see application of the Pythagorean theorem. And there's a

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lot of different mathematical equations that sure are pretty accurate

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most of the time because we're using them within the

334
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context that they were designed for. And I'm saying design

335
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because humans made mathematics to describe the world around them.

336
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But you take the math outside of that context and

337
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it doesn't work anymore or it changes. For example, in physics,

338
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you have these coefficients that you're going to use to

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describe gravity. Nine point eighty one is what we use

340
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for the gravitational pull like here on Earth, or the

341
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acceleration due to gravity on Earth. That number is not

342
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going to be the same in a place with a

343
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different acceleration due to gravity. But that's it's not because

344
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there's some supernatural reason for that equation to work that way.

345
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It's because the parameters, the variables are all applicable to

346
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that specific context and setting.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I think you need to flip it.

348
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Speaker 5: Go ahead, okay nine point one Yeah, I agree. The

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gravitational constant constant of Earth, I mean, I mean it's

350
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not technically constant, since you can like have shifts in

351
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like different places of water.

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Speaker 2: The coefficient.

353
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Speaker 6: Earth yeah yeah, yeah yeah, but coefficients, Yeah, that you

354
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can only basically get by directly by going out and

355
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using your senses and doing empiricism and experiment.

356
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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: That that I'm not saying is uh from uh some

358
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supernatural source. But going back to the Pythagorian theorem. Yes, Uh,

359
00:24:13,079 --> 00:24:15,119
I didn't. I didn't get what you were saying. I

360
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know it's right trum angles. But if you take the

361
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ideas of it, of of the adjacent, the hypothenuse, and

362
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the opposite, and you you take those ideas from it,

363
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and then you and then you change it for other

364
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than right triangles, you get things like you get it.

365
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Speaker 6: Uh.

366
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Speaker 5: The the trigonometry rules of signed cosine, tangent, and and.

367
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Speaker 1: Those are all it's all just solving, Donald, Those are

368
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all just solving for different variables. It's just using critical

369
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thinking to derive a model to find out a missing

370
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variable in the equation. Like if all of these other

371
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numbers are a if we assign certain numbers to each

372
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different side length and angle, we're gonna be able to

373
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find out the other angle that we're missing because they

374
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all have to equal a certain amount. So that's that's

375
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just that's just finding like variables that you're missing like that.

376
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Speaker 2: That's all that this is.

377
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Speaker 1: There's nothing like supernatural or super meaningful beyond that about that.

378
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Speaker 3: Let me add something, sorry, Donald, let me add something

379
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to what doctor Ben said there before you go on.

380
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So yeah, so yeah, the like you mentioned the Pythagora

381
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,400
in theorem turns out to be a subset of a

382
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,440
larger law called the law of co signs. And also

383
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,839
it was they did use the Pythagora theorem, or at

384
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least a variation of it, when building the pyramids, or

385
00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:54,000
at least it's it's it's proposed, it's hypothesized that they did.

386
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I don't know if they ever actually have any evidence

387
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,480
of that, but it seems like they would have. They

388
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would be able to. They had the technology and the

389
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,920
knowledge to be able to use that. They can set

390
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,319
up a right triangle. They can measure the links of

391
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,640
the sides, and that helps them to determine that the

392
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,519
angle between those sides is in fact a right angle.

393
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But let me give you an example here and tell

394
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,880
me what you think of this. Let's say that I

395
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,720
went out and I looked at a bunch of apples,

396
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and I saw that they were all red. Okay. I

397
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,720
have dozens and dozens and dozens of apples in front

398
00:26:23,759 --> 00:26:26,920
of me, and I look at them and they're all red. Okay,

399
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,480
And so I say, hey, apples are read. Let's make

400
00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:32,359
that a law. That's a law, that's something I have

401
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,759
observed in nature. Apples are read. So then what I

402
00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:38,039
do is I go down the street and somebody tells

403
00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:40,039
me they have an apple, and I say, you know what,

404
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,480
I bet you that apple's read. And they say they

405
00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:44,400
pull out, and they say, you know, you're right. That's

406
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,039
amazing that law of the universe made this apple red.

407
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,000
There must be something weird happening here. There must be

408
00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:56,720
some sort of supernatural creator that did this. But no,

409
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,880
what really happened was we saw a pattern. We named

410
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,440
that pattern. In this case, I just said, you know,

411
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,119
the apples are all read, and then we went And

412
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,960
then should we be surprised that we go out into

413
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,400
the world and noticed that that kind of thing happens.

414
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,640
It's not. I haven't justified belief that there's anything prescriptive

415
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,359
about this quote unquote law of red apples that I made,

416
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,000
that I've noticed and that I named. There's no reason

417
00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:28,000
for me to think that that's prescriptive, that there's anything

418
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,960
making the apples read. What happened was I noticed a pattern,

419
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,359
and I gave that pattern a name. That's what we're

420
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,720
talking about here. And so when you talk about how

421
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,599
mathematics works, yeah, no kidding, it works. We went out,

422
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,640
we looked at the world, we described patterns that we saw,

423
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:46,960
and then we shouldn't be surprised at all when the

424
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,160
patterns that we find happened to match that description, because

425
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,039
the description was based on what we observed. And that's

426
00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:56,960
how science works. That's the number one step in the

427
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,640
scientific method, or while I suppose, depending on how you

428
00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:03,839
you set it up. But making observations comes before drawing

429
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:09,920
your conclusions, and so scientific conclusions are not prescriptive conclusions.

430
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,960
They're descriptive conclusions by definition. And so at the most

431
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,799
what we can say out of after going through this

432
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,119
entire process is that we've summarized a description of what

433
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,960
we see. Now, if we do that, I don't think

434
00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:28,359
we should be surprised then when we go out and

435
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,799
find out that the universe actually matches that description. Does

436
00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:35,480
that make sense? Donald? What do you think about that?

437
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:44,599
Speaker 5: I think there's a false equivalency here with all the

438
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,400
red you know, when you were saying that, I thought

439
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,880
you were about to do like, oh, the apple's green

440
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:55,839
and like the black swawn fallacy. But but but the

441
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:04,039
apples okay again, and that knowledge, okay, that's synthetic, a

442
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:10,400
posteriori knowledge that you got by observing and doing induction

443
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,559
and your your senses to find a pattern. But some

444
00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:19,559
but a lot of math, it can either be true

445
00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:27,200
it's like true by definition like uh, and but some

446
00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:31,759
of it so that's not surprising the true by definition,

447
00:29:31,839 --> 00:29:34,240
but some of it, like some of the laws of

448
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,039
triangles and stuff. You can be synthetic, but you can

449
00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:42,839
come to it a priori without your senses. That's the

450
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,720
class of math and knowledge that I'm saying, is this

451
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:52,039
distinct here because you don't need your sense is to

452
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,279
come in and find it. Your thing works for the

453
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,480
knowledge where oh it's like a constant, or it's or

454
00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:06,880
apples are red. It's a synthetic a prosteriori knowledge. But

455
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,279
knowledge that is synthetic that you can come to without

456
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:16,000
using your senses, without empiricism, and it's still come to

457
00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:19,920
be true. This is the part is.

458
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: Possible, but it's a lot harder to demonstrate that it

459
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:23,240
is true.

460
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:28,319
Speaker 2: Right, And there's a few.

461
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 3: I would go further and say that you are not,

462
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,920
in fact doing completely a posteriory observation there. I think

463
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,680
that when when can you let me ask you this,

464
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:43,440
then can you name one mathematical fact that is not

465
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,839
based on observation of the universe, and that is not

466
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,200
based on other observation. Like we notice patterns, right, One

467
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:54,000
of the patterns that we notice is that if I

468
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:56,880
have this set of facts, I can manipulate those set

469
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,319
of facts to come up with to generate other sets

470
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:03,279
of facts. That's one of the patterns that we've discovered

471
00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:07,119
mathematically in nature is that if we know certain facts exist,

472
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,799
we can use those facts to generate new facts. That's

473
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:14,079
one of the patterns that we've observed. That's not something

474
00:31:14,079 --> 00:31:17,000
that we created up out of nothing. We noticed that

475
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,200
that happens if I know if I have two stones

476
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,480
here and two stones here, if I put them together

477
00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:25,480
into one big pile, they will make four stones. We

478
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,279
generalize that to beyond stones, and we have our foundations

479
00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:33,039
for mathematics there. So can you name me one mathematical

480
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:37,119
fact that's either not based on observation or is not

481
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:42,400
based on conclusions we've drawn from other observations.

482
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:54,119
Speaker 5: Okay, that's okay. I would say axioms, But most axioms

483
00:31:54,160 --> 00:32:00,640
came from them observing the world and then coming up

484
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,000
with them. But you could come to the axioms without

485
00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:10,079
doing that, Like things like Euclid's five postulates, and then

486
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:14,759
and things in set theory. But then, but then you

487
00:32:14,839 --> 00:32:20,000
get into well, some axioms can be false, and like

488
00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:23,599
the fifth postulate or the and then you get into

489
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,960
questions of the axiom of choice and the axiom of determinacy.

490
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,640
But my and but my point is, Okay, yes, most

491
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,400
of the axioms and stuff they did, they were just

492
00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:41,200
formalizing their intuition, which was built out after a lifetime

493
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,000
of observing things in the world. But you can come

494
00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:45,920
to them without that.

495
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: But how do you how do you do that?

496
00:32:48,359 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 5: Separate these things?

497
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 3: How do you come to them without that?

498
00:32:54,599 --> 00:33:02,319
Speaker 5: Okay, first you would have okay, okay, we're gonna you're

499
00:33:03,359 --> 00:33:11,119
imagining some brain in a vat that doesn't have any senses.

500
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: Let me pause you for a second here, let me

501
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,599
pause you, let me I want to put a finer

502
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,039
point on my question. How can you come to those

503
00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:24,319
conclusions without relying on either previously observed facts or previously

504
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,799
observed patterns that can be used to generate new facts.

505
00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:31,000
In other words, we're not going to use any foundational

506
00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:34,720
axioms or any other assumptions, any other things that we've

507
00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,279
observed in nature, and we're not going to apply any

508
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,680
patterns of reasoning, patterns of thinking that we've also observed

509
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,640
in nature. So how can you come to those conclusions

510
00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:52,240
without using previously observed math knowledge and previously observed math

511
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:59,960
processes or methodology.

512
00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 5: Well, the methodology and stuff is derived from from logic

513
00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:11,559
and law and logic like I think if we were

514
00:34:11,559 --> 00:34:18,199
to take a human mind just inherits uh, inherits patterns

515
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,559
and its structures, and it's in its brain to.

516
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,519
Speaker 3: To from where logically, where does it inherit those patterns from?

517
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,119
Speaker 5: Okay, well, okay, well, are we saying what I actually

518
00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:37,079
believe or what or from the argument that I'm making here?

519
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: I am Well, if those are two different things, I'm

520
00:34:41,039 --> 00:34:43,239
curious as to why you would be making that argument.

521
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,280
But if you're just making I mean, we can examine

522
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,159
arguments on their own, merit. What let's let's focus on

523
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,320
the argument and how does how does what you're saying

524
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:52,480
support your conclusion?

525
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 5: Okay? What I would uh, what I would say is

526
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:05,000
there is some kind of consciousness that is created that

527
00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:07,360
would be creating the forms, And.

528
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 3: Are you conjecturing that or are you do you have

529
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,000
reason to believe that.

530
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:19,679
Speaker 5: Okay, but well, uh my my reasoning UH stem from

531
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,960
UH stem from the idea of Plato's forms, and also

532
00:35:28,039 --> 00:35:36,639
things in UH in quantum mechanics, where there where like

533
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,239
bells inequality and information seems to be able to be

534
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:42,119
non local.

535
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,559
Speaker 3: But okay, so that would be a conclusion. So I

536
00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:47,320
want to know how do we get to that conclusion.

537
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,199
You said you can come to that conclusion without relying

538
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,800
any previous observation, and I'm gonna I'm going to shut

539
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,159
up here a little bit. I want to hear a

540
00:35:56,199 --> 00:35:58,320
little bit from you, and then we'll see what if

541
00:35:58,360 --> 00:35:59,760
doctor Ben wants to chime in on this.

542
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 5: Okay, well there is Well, how are we going to

543
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,039
define an observation? Because I was going to do a

544
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:11,119
brain and a vat, but it's observing its own consciousness

545
00:36:11,119 --> 00:36:16,199
and it would have to who then determine? Okay, the

546
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,079
idea of existence exists, and I can take the leap

547
00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:22,519
that thoughts exist, and I think therefore, I am but

548
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,079
are you does that? Because are you going to count

549
00:36:26,079 --> 00:36:29,320
that as an observation even when it is just observing

550
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,920
itself and it has no senses?

551
00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 3: I'm asking you, how can we come to the conclusion

552
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,840
that a mathematical truth is true without Now you're saying

553
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:46,320
that we can derive that absence of observation a priori right,

554
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,679
And so what I'm asking you is, can you, first

555
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,960
of all, can you name one of those mathematical truths?

556
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,760
And then can you show me how we can come

557
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:59,039
to that conclusion without relying on previous observation, which includes

558
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:05,079
the observation of certain patterns of truth, which includes logic.

559
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 5: By the way, well, okay, you I don't think you're

560
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,280
able to do it without making any observations. But I'm

561
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:20,320
making a distinction between observations from your senses versus versus

562
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:28,159
completely internal observation of thought and logic the two because

563
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,679
I was saying that the that the consciousness is beyond

564
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:39,400
UH is beyond physical realm, and so a consciousness that

565
00:37:39,639 --> 00:37:45,360
isn't bound by space, time or adder and energy that

566
00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:49,079
would be able to observe itself without these things.

567
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:55,599
Speaker 3: So you're conjectural, I'm conjecturing. Yeah, okay, all right, Ben,

568
00:37:55,599 --> 00:37:57,800
do you I've been talking here. I'm so excited. We

569
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,199
got a math question while I'm on so I'm going

570
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:01,519
all over this. So I just want to make sure

571
00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:04,199
we I give Ben a chance to talk about this too, Ben,

572
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,960
who also is math literate as well, I should point out, Yeah.

573
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: I'm having fun watching you two go at this.

574
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: I feel like we we do have some other callers

575
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,840
in the queue though, so if we want to, like

576
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,079
we can talk for a little bit longer, but then

577
00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:23,840
if we can start kind of getting to the end,

578
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,920
and then we can continue this another time as well.

579
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,719
And I'm donald, I'm going to say this, definitely call

580
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,199
another time to talk Heathen and we can continue this

581
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,639
conversation because Scott is over there quite a bit and

582
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,199
I'm sure we'd love to have continue conversation on this

583
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:41,519
with you.

584
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 5: So okay, so when to call? Just next next weekend or.

585
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 3: If you look on the if you look on the YouTube,

586
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,119
they usually post ahead of time, like the next seven

587
00:38:55,199 --> 00:38:57,920
shows or next six shows or whatever, when when who's

588
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,679
who's going to be on? When? And so? But but

589
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,000
I want while you're while you're doing that, I want

590
00:39:03,039 --> 00:39:04,400
you to I want to I want you to bring

591
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:05,920
your a game when you come. So I want to

592
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,840
give you a little bit of homework here. It's my nature.

593
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,920
I'm a teacher, so I'll give you a little bit

594
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,840
of homework here. And I want you to think about that.

595
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,000
I want you to think about the distinction between nature

596
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,880
and as a subset of that, mathematics and logic. How

597
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,400
can we show that they are prescriptive? How can we

598
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,440
show that they are prescriptive the reasoning that we use.

599
00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:29,039
In fact, I would go out on a limb and say,

600
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,000
you actually went through this process of learning this, you know,

601
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:35,840
learning how to do mathematical reasoning to some to some

602
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,159
extent or another. And you start out by you know,

603
00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:41,199
when you're a little kid and you're in kindergarten and

604
00:39:41,199 --> 00:39:44,400
you're counting blocks, or you're counting apples or whatever, and

605
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,960
so you start with the basics based on observation. When

606
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,320
you first learn how to add, they have little piles

607
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,039
of apples and you can push them together and do

608
00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:55,599
things like that, and so you start with observation. But

609
00:39:55,679 --> 00:40:00,400
the reasoning itself is also part of an observation. We

610
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,159
notice that reasoning in our universe produces certain times types

611
00:40:05,199 --> 00:40:08,400
of results. When we do this type of action called adding,

612
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,079
we get this particular type of result. The same thing

613
00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:14,760
applies for reasoning. If a certain if we can, if

614
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,199
we can show that certain premises are true, they combine

615
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,000
in a certain way according to our observed patterns that

616
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:26,039
we've seen observed patterns of logic, and then produce truths

617
00:40:26,119 --> 00:40:29,360
about the other, about the about other facts. And so

618
00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:31,960
that's what I would want, That's what I would ask

619
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,559
you too, And that's what I would love to dive into.

620
00:40:34,639 --> 00:40:36,960
But as Ben said, we're we're you know, we have

621
00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:39,480
limited time here today. But if you want to talk

622
00:40:39,519 --> 00:40:43,280
about how can we show that mathematics or science or

623
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,920
even nature or in general is prescriptive, that's when you can.

624
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,639
If you can't show that, then you're not at a

625
00:40:50,639 --> 00:40:52,639
point where you can say, well there must be something

626
00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:54,920
making it. Does that makes sense?

627
00:40:55,039 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 5: Okay?

628
00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:00,519
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, yeah, So I'll look forward to uh talking

629
00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:01,840
to you again at some point on that.

630
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 5: Wait, just before you go, you've read you've read Kant

631
00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:10,440
right in his his Categories of Knowledge and Critique of

632
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:11,039
Pure Reason?

633
00:41:11,159 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 9: Right?

634
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,119
Speaker 3: Not if I've read it. It hasn't been recently, and

635
00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:18,599
so I'm not. But if you want to give me

636
00:41:18,639 --> 00:41:20,079
a little bit of homework, i'd be happy to.

637
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, could, yeah, could you read a CON's Critique of

638
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,079
Pure Reason? Because he basically gives what you're what you're

639
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:34,880
asking for but I'll do my own homework and I'll

640
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,360
come with a solid argument.

641
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 3: All right, that's fair, that's here, it's a deal. All right.

642
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Donald. I wish we had more time,

643
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,719
but thank you so much. And I hope you have

644
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,239
a great rest of your Sunday.

645
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 3: All right, I'm so excited. We had a math question.

646
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,039
That's so awesome. Awesome.

647
00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And for anyone else, if you want to talk especial,

648
00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:04,000
if you want to talk about probability, we still might

649
00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:06,880
have enough firm to take you, so get that call in.

650
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,800
We want to talk about some probability today, but just

651
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,239
a couple announcements. We want to make sure everyone knows

652
00:42:14,519 --> 00:42:17,400
all the ways that you can support this channel, and

653
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,239
you can also go into the other shows within the

654
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,679
ACA and do these things for those as well. You

655
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,559
can like the video, subscribe to the channel, click the bell,

656
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,440
and get all of the notifications so you know when

657
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,599
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658
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,519
leave some comments down below after the live is over.

659
00:42:38,119 --> 00:42:40,519
All of that helps us get the content out and

660
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:45,159
helps us continue doing what we're doing. Another way to

661
00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:47,840
support us is by sending your super chats, and we

662
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,159
have a couple of them that have already come in,

663
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:56,079
and we thank you so much for doing that, and

664
00:42:56,159 --> 00:42:57,960
I'm going to pull these up. We have one from

665
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:03,320
Lisa wickershamnineteen ninety nine says, why were Christians so convinced

666
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,760
that their children were not going to be raptured with them?

667
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:08,159
Speaker 10: Wow?

668
00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:09,679
Speaker 2: That's intense.

669
00:43:10,159 --> 00:43:13,159
Speaker 3: That's a good question. That's a good question that goes

670
00:43:13,199 --> 00:43:15,320
to you know, you hear people talk about this all

671
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,599
the time. You know, how can a parent be happy

672
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:20,840
in heaven when their children are suffering down in hell?

673
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,519
It seems it seems difficult. It seems like a difficult

674
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:28,559
thing to resolve there, So so excellent question, Thank you, Lisa.

675
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: And then we have another one from one of our hosts,

676
00:43:32,119 --> 00:43:35,360
Godless Engineer, who has also been a member for six months,

677
00:43:36,199 --> 00:43:41,039
gives ten dollars, saying the Bible constructs the barrier of sensations,

678
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,000
the wisdom of Jordan Peterson. Yeah, yeah, those some silly

679
00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:45,639
things that.

680
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:47,519
Speaker 11: Come out.

681
00:43:47,639 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't know what to say about that.

682
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you want, if you want us, Oh

683
00:43:53,079 --> 00:44:00,599
we got another super chat and read that one. Raise

684
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:03,360
your glasses for Oklahoma, Ryan Walters quit. Perhaps we can

685
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,840
rise above number fifty education. Well, thank you for your

686
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:11,119
fifty dollars super chat. That's super super generous of you.

687
00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:15,920
And oh, if you want your comments to get read

688
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,440
on the screen, as long as it is within reasonable

689
00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:24,519
standards of appropriateness as in no hate speech and all

690
00:44:24,519 --> 00:44:26,519
that stuff, we're all all good to read those, So

691
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:30,119
get in your super chats and we will read those

692
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:33,199
before the end of the show. Also, if you're in

693
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,119
the Austin area, follow us on meetup to get access

694
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:40,079
to community events. You can find out more about that

695
00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:44,480
at tiny dot cc slash ACA meetup. There's philosophy events,

696
00:44:44,519 --> 00:44:47,039
game nights and all that for you to check out.

697
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,840
There's also weekly watch parties at the Free Thought Library

698
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,280
on Sundays to watch viewings of Talk ethen and XP

699
00:44:55,519 --> 00:44:58,599
every Sunday, doors open at noon if you want to

700
00:44:58,639 --> 00:45:02,000
go hang out with the community there. We also want

701
00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:06,639
to shout out our lovely crew members who are putting

702
00:45:06,679 --> 00:45:09,679
so much work into this every week. There's the crew cam.

703
00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:11,440
Thank you so.

704
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 3: Much faces, they're so adorable.

705
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: They're doing a great job.

706
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 3: All right, crew, let's see some love for the crew

707
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,519
in the chat. Everyone gives some love for the crew, all.

708
00:45:22,559 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: Right, yes, yes, please show your support for the crew

709
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,840
in the side chat. And we've got a few more

710
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,760
calls in the queue. Do any of them stand out

711
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:35,000
to you?

712
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 9: Scott?

713
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 3: You know what I feel like? Uh Like, I'm so

714
00:45:40,639 --> 00:45:42,840
satisfied that we had a math question. I feel like

715
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,599
I can handle anything. I'm empowered. I'm empowered. Uh So,

716
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,800
where wherever your fancy takes you on these all?

717
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:51,159
Speaker 11: Right?

718
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: Uh, let's talk to Ken. He him from Michigan wants

719
00:45:56,039 --> 00:46:00,000
to know how to understand how to understand the universe

720
00:46:00,159 --> 00:46:04,559
existing for infinite time into the past and future. If

721
00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:07,519
I can pull you up here, Ken, you are live

722
00:46:07,639 --> 00:46:10,039
on the Atheist experience, tell us a little bit more

723
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:13,559
about your discussion topic today.

724
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:19,519
Speaker 7: Yes, thank you, it's wonderful to steak to both of you. Yeah,

725
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,679
the maths, if I can say that correctly. As how

726
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:33,119
infinities work, I kind of lets say the singularity or

727
00:46:33,159 --> 00:46:37,400
the beginning of the universe, you know, time before the singularity.

728
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,000
Does that make any sense? I guess not? But you know,

729
00:46:41,199 --> 00:46:45,400
like a infinite time And how did our eternal nowness

730
00:46:45,639 --> 00:46:49,800
come to be? If if eternal time did exist, what

731
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,920
does it mean? But actually, because of your previous colors

732
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,800
seem very mass heavy. I'm thinking like a right triangle

733
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,519
on the surface of a sphere, and I guess that

734
00:46:59,599 --> 00:47:03,480
makes uh not euclidian. It's non euclidian, so it makes

735
00:47:03,559 --> 00:47:08,280
uh what's the Papagos wrong? So uh, but I could

736
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,480
go on in a finite but I guess not not

737
00:47:10,559 --> 00:47:14,079
to go too far. Just do you have Ben? I

738
00:47:14,119 --> 00:47:15,800
guess you're the math guy.

739
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:16,159
Speaker 5: Uh?

740
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: Oh no, No, I'm not. Scott's the math guy. Scott's

741
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:21,559
a math teacher. I'm just a doctor.

742
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:22,599
Speaker 2: Uh so.

743
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: But but yeah, but that Scott's happy to super happy

744
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,079
to talk math today. So definitely bring bring your math question.

745
00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:34,159
We're here for it.

746
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 9: Try to.

747
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I don't know, but my math is

748
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,400
only high school triggered armetrary. I never did anything post

749
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:52,360
that except for YouTube. So I mean, what am I

750
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,679
even making a question here? What does it even mean

751
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:00,480
to say that, uh, in some kind of infinite time? Well,

752
00:48:00,519 --> 00:48:03,960
because I assume most religious people say God is outside

753
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,760
of time? What does that even mean? You know what

754
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:06,320
I'm saying.

755
00:48:07,039 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 3: I can't. I can't answer that one. I have no

756
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,400
idea what it would mean to be out of time. However,

757
00:48:13,199 --> 00:48:16,639
so as far as the infinity is concerned, if you

758
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,599
if you never went past trigonometry, then you missed out

759
00:48:19,679 --> 00:48:21,760
in one of the most awesome classes that you could take,

760
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,280
and that's calculus, and I think everybody should take that.

761
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,280
And you know, I've taught that for many years and

762
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,760
I love teaching it just because it's a weird subject

763
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,400
and I love dealing with that kind of thing, and

764
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,920
I love trying to figure this stuff out. But is

765
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,960
your question really about that You're just having difficulty understanding

766
00:48:39,079 --> 00:48:43,480
that time could be infinite or is there something more

767
00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:44,079
to it than that?

768
00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 6: I will.

769
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 7: Well, well, I don't think the human mind can understand

770
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:54,800
the non existence of time except for what before we

771
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,639
were conscious, So I guess I can put my mind

772
00:48:58,679 --> 00:49:01,960
around the non exist in some time. I don't know. Yeah,

773
00:49:02,519 --> 00:49:05,599
I always. I always end up in these infinite regressions,

774
00:49:05,639 --> 00:49:08,760
you know, turtles and a turtle, infinite time or no

775
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,519
time or there one time, there is time, but once

776
00:49:12,519 --> 00:49:15,159
you're dead there won't. Maybe that's too a little bit

777
00:49:15,159 --> 00:49:17,719
of scared of death. So yeah, what what does time

778
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,800
mean when you don't exist? Well? I assume it means nothing.

779
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,920
But so, but the problem is, how do you write

780
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,840
all that down? Because you know, how do you try

781
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,079
to make sense to it, and of course I'm compircis,

782
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:31,400
so it's my sense.

783
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: Let me ask you a couple couple of other questions here. Then,

784
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,920
do you do you understand that time still happened before

785
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,639
you were born or before you became conscious?

786
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 7: Yeah?

787
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:48,519
Speaker 3: Okay, was there a yesterday?

788
00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 7: I have recollection of it. If I was dead right now,

789
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,119
I would not have recollection of it.

790
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 3: Okay, Well you're not dead, I don't think, and so

791
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,760
you do. So would you would you accept that statement

792
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,119
that there was a yesterday?

793
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:03,599
Speaker 7: Yes?

794
00:50:04,199 --> 00:50:06,760
Speaker 3: Okay? And do you also accept that there will be

795
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:07,360
a tomorrow?

796
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 7: Yes?

797
00:50:10,199 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 3: Well okay. So for time to be infinite, then those

798
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:18,559
two things just have to always be true. I would

799
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:22,000
wager that in your experience it has always been true

800
00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:24,480
that there was a yesterday and there will be a tomorrow.

801
00:50:25,159 --> 00:50:28,760
So so far all of your experience points to the

802
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,280
fact that there was time before now and there will

803
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,719
be more time after now. So all infinite time means

804
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,159
is that that was just always true.

805
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 7: Yes. I like the way you put that. Yes, and

806
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:49,079
if I never existed, I would assume time exist. I'm

807
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:51,519
trying to figure out if there's any way to mathematically

808
00:50:51,559 --> 00:50:57,199
described a non existent universe that has no time. Does

809
00:50:57,199 --> 00:50:58,079
that make any sense?

810
00:50:59,199 --> 00:51:01,559
Speaker 3: It doesn't make it. Well, it makes sense. Your question

811
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,679
makes sense, But the thing you're asking for an explanation of,

812
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,440
to me, doesn't make any sense because to me, time

813
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,760
is an is an is a necessary part of what

814
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:20,000
makes the universe. Yes, but I don't mean logically necessary,

815
00:51:20,079 --> 00:51:21,760
I mean definitionally necessary.

816
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 7: Yeah. No, I don't see how a universe could exist

817
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,079
without time, because if it was, I don't know. Yeah,

818
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:33,199
doesn't make sense. What I'm trying to do is I'm

819
00:51:33,199 --> 00:51:37,159
trying to think of myself as a disembodied spirit and

820
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:42,199
some kind of ethereal something, something non existent something, and

821
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,400
I'm floating around and saying hi to people. Does that

822
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,159
make the probably you know the religious thoughts that will

823
00:51:50,199 --> 00:51:52,840
do this and that after we die. I do know

824
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,400
how that could work. I don't think the human mind

825
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,920
could understand any kind of post life for a turn.

826
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 3: The year is too But you've already done that, You've

827
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,840
already described it, you already, you already said that you

828
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:08,519
believe and I don't think. I think this is a

829
00:52:08,599 --> 00:52:11,480
very common belief that there will be a tomorrow, but

830
00:52:11,599 --> 00:52:15,679
obviously it hasn't happened yet. And so you've shown, you've

831
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,199
demonstrated right here live on the air, that people can

832
00:52:20,039 --> 00:52:23,840
hypothesize about the future, you know, further on down the

833
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,840
timeline or further into the back of the timeline. Even

834
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,599
though you were born in a particular time, you can

835
00:52:29,639 --> 00:52:34,199
still imagine what it was like before that. We can.

836
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,360
We can imagine before we were what it was like

837
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,239
in years before we were born. And so everything that

838
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,119
you described is an answer to your question. You've just

839
00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:48,400
described what it's like to imagine an infinite timeline. You

840
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:52,360
just all every day that happens, you believe there was

841
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,800
a yesterday, and you also believe there will be a tomorrow.

842
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,840
That's it. That's all that it takes.

843
00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 7: It's not that complicated. But the touch with their ownnowness

844
00:53:02,039 --> 00:53:03,800
is that.

845
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,119
Speaker 3: It does at least it to the extent of things

846
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,119
like you know, the b theory of time or the

847
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:12,360
block theory of time, you know that kind of thing.

848
00:53:13,119 --> 00:53:16,320
You know, that's that's that's more of a physics question

849
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,119
than a mathematics question. You know, it's more about what

850
00:53:19,199 --> 00:53:21,079
you know, do we have any evidence to support that

851
00:53:21,159 --> 00:53:23,440
kind of thing? And it makes you know, it also

852
00:53:23,519 --> 00:53:25,679
requires for us to have a good, strong definition of

853
00:53:25,679 --> 00:53:28,000
what time is, which is a little bit of a

854
00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:33,639
slippery concept, but not entirely slippery. But I'll shut up

855
00:53:33,639 --> 00:53:35,119
for a little bit and doctor Ben, do you have

856
00:53:35,119 --> 00:53:36,159
anything you want to add to this?

857
00:53:37,119 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't have a whole lot to add.

858
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,000
It sounds like you're just trying to wrap your head

859
00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:46,400
around this concept that you know, human brains do have

860
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:53,800
difficulty processing a concept of such a long period of time,

861
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,719
especially one that does not have an endpoint, because the

862
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,559
majority of things that we experienced, I mean, in fact,

863
00:53:59,599 --> 00:54:02,960
like every thing in terms of our own experience is finite,

864
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,800
as you're kind of talking about with Scott, Like I

865
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,599
had a start point, I will have an endpoint, and

866
00:54:09,639 --> 00:54:12,119
so it is very difficult to get outside of that

867
00:54:12,199 --> 00:54:14,119
and think, oh, yeah, there are other things that will

868
00:54:14,519 --> 00:54:16,880
exist beyond my lifetime.

869
00:54:17,559 --> 00:54:18,199
Speaker 2: And that's something.

870
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,079
Speaker 1: In fact, just thinking about the applications of this particular question,

871
00:54:22,519 --> 00:54:26,320
I think it does point out with some issues within

872
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,440
religious thought processes and a lot of people who believe

873
00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:34,760
in eternity and believe in afterlife, a lot of people

874
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:39,119
seem to forget that, Yeah, once your life is over,

875
00:54:39,559 --> 00:54:41,280
that doesn't mean that the rest of the world is

876
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,199
going to stop functioning. It doesn't mean that your actions

877
00:54:44,199 --> 00:54:47,840
aren't going to have consequences even after you're gone. So

878
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,559
I think a lot of people, especially thinking about like

879
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:57,119
environmental concerns or like disease control, all those things that

880
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:02,639
have massive population impacts, like we don't. I think a

881
00:55:02,639 --> 00:55:07,360
lot of people who believe in afterlife are just thinking, oh, well,

882
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,119
it's not going to affect me. And I don't think

883
00:55:09,159 --> 00:55:14,000
they intentionally do that all the time. But when when

884
00:55:14,039 --> 00:55:18,760
you're not thinking in a perspective that what you do

885
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,599
is going to impact people on this planet for a

886
00:55:21,639 --> 00:55:25,239
longer period of time, it's easy to just kind of

887
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:29,559
assume that everything starts and ends with you. So I

888
00:55:29,559 --> 00:55:32,440
don't know if that, well, that is in your thought

889
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:33,079
process at all.

890
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 7: Logically, we're only self centered, I assume, right, all right,

891
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,719
it's always about me, right, I mean, I mean not

892
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,840
me literally, but I mean humans they seem do you

893
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:49,719
have time for one quick other thing? I was going

894
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,880
to run off, Well how about this if you have time,

895
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:53,119
if it's okay.

896
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:54,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, really quick?

897
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, yeah, okay, well okay, yeah. I'm an atheist.

898
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,039
I've always been an atheist, but I've never been militant

899
00:56:02,199 --> 00:56:04,360
or full of hate. You know, I mean, let live

900
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,119
you know, I understand uh uh, I mean you know,

901
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,199
uh the theocracies and uh yeah, we got to be

902
00:56:12,199 --> 00:56:15,119
careful here in America, you know, with you know, politics.

903
00:56:15,119 --> 00:56:16,400
I don't want to get into that, but you know

904
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,679
what I'm saying. But uh, I had a question. I

905
00:56:20,679 --> 00:56:23,360
am so sorry. This is wonderful. I appreciate you talking

906
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,920
to me. It would be best to divide. If it's okay,

907
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,280
I'd call back in the future and have other Oh

908
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:33,599
my question was I find comfort in reading the Koran

909
00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:36,599
and the Bible. And I don't know if it's called

910
00:56:36,639 --> 00:56:40,719
outland shots or something. I read all this, uh you

911
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:45,679
know when they when it's whether it's slavery or something

912
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,239
over women and all that terrible bad stuff. I just

913
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,719
skip over that because it's bullshit and it's wrong. It's bad.

914
00:56:52,079 --> 00:56:54,440
But but does it make any sense to get some

915
00:56:54,599 --> 00:56:59,480
kind of I like reading about Uh maybe it's just

916
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,679
some kind of mystical It's just I get it if

917
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,920
I read certain kind of religious stuff, I get a

918
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,760
sense of while being while I'm reading it, of course,

919
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,079
until it comes to the part where it says, you know,

920
00:57:12,159 --> 00:57:13,800
guys are better than girls.

921
00:57:13,519 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 2: Or yeah, I don't. I don't think that's a problem.

922
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:17,800
I don't. I don't.

923
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: I don't think it's necessarily a problem to get good

924
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,039
feelings from reading a piece of literature. Like I read

925
00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:28,800
fiction all the time, and I get nice, fuzzy feelings

926
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,840
when I read certain books as well. So I think

927
00:57:32,199 --> 00:57:35,400
the issue is when people take those religious books and

928
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:39,599
then try to change their entire lives over it, have

929
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:44,480
unfounded beliefs because of it, and then even worse when

930
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,159
they tell other people how they have to live their

931
00:57:47,199 --> 00:57:50,360
lives because of the book that they read. But but

932
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,800
if you enjoy reading religious texts, even I like reading

933
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,559
certain religious texts. I think a lot of us here

934
00:57:57,039 --> 00:58:00,280
on these shows read religious texts, and it can be fun.

935
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,480
It can be fun, especially as a learning experience for

936
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:06,039
what people believed at certain points in time or what

937
00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:10,159
certain cultures believed it. And sometimes there are messages in

938
00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:13,840
there that are wholesome messages. I don't think the entire

939
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,320
book is completely evil. There are some things in there

940
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,119
that I do agree with, So I don't think that's

941
00:58:20,159 --> 00:58:23,239
wrong of you to enjoy reading some of those books.

942
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 7: Yes, I do. I don't want to say poetry. I

943
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:30,760
don't want to say history. I don't want to say

944
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:37,079
like it's but it's stories and hopefully, Yeah, I understand

945
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,719
between right and wrong, and the Bible didn't tell me that.

946
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,719
I think. I think Sam Harris can tell us how

947
00:58:44,599 --> 00:58:46,519
we all know between right and wrong unless we're a

948
00:58:46,519 --> 00:58:50,039
psychopaths or something. But we don't need some goofy book

949
00:58:50,079 --> 00:58:52,679
to tell us that. But it's just it's ancient literature.

950
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,960
What would they think in two thousand years ago. Yeah,

951
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:56,880
they got a lot of stuff wrong. But that's kind

952
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,679
of cool. So it's how about the entertainment, And sometimes

953
00:58:59,679 --> 00:59:02,480
it's so, hey, listen, you guys talk to me. I

954
00:59:02,519 --> 00:59:05,079
really appreciate that. I'll listen to the rest of the

955
00:59:05,159 --> 00:59:09,599
show and I have been for years. So uh and uh,

956
00:59:10,199 --> 00:59:11,719
if it's okay, I'll call it next week.

957
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:14,679
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your call.

958
00:59:15,679 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 3: Thanks. Then there's nothing wrong with enjoying reading. I think

959
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:21,719
that's a wonderful thing. And so if this is the

960
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,360
particular kind of stuff you like to read, go for it.

961
00:59:25,679 --> 00:59:26,199
Go for it.

962
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, it's all yeah, yeah, don't get

963
00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:35,840
brainwashed and assume everybody has all the truth. Yeah, I know.

964
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,639
Like I said, I've listened to you wonderful people for years.

965
00:59:38,639 --> 00:59:41,400
So hey says, for taking my call. I hope I

966
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,559
haven't been difficult or google.

967
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,599
Speaker 3: So thanks a lot, Ken, I appreciate your calling.

968
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,519
Speaker 7: Okay, not geometry, that's.

969
00:59:53,599 --> 01:00:01,119
Speaker 1: All right, take care Ken, all right, you all right, great,

970
01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:03,679
you get there, get lots of math today.

971
01:00:03,719 --> 01:00:06,199
Speaker 3: That's great, I am, I am, that's awesome. That's awesome.

972
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,360
All right, day without maths a day without sunshine.

973
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:12,199
Speaker 2: Yeah.

974
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:14,159
Speaker 1: No, but I agree with you though on your statement

975
01:00:14,159 --> 01:00:19,519
about calculus. I hated math until I took physics, and

976
01:00:19,559 --> 01:00:22,679
then I understood why math is so cool. So I

977
01:00:23,039 --> 01:00:26,639
think like learning how to apply math, learning how to

978
01:00:27,039 --> 01:00:29,400
just solve the puzzle, Like that's really all math is,

979
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,079
just solving puzzles, and it's.

980
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 3: Super fun, exactly wonderful. All right.

981
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,679
Speaker 1: The next one, let's talk to Jim. He him from

982
01:00:38,719 --> 01:00:42,559
Missouri wants to talk about the atheist burden of proof.

983
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,199
Speaker 2: Jim, you are alive. What would you like to talk about?

984
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,599
Speaker 12: Well, yes, when people say that atheists have a burden

985
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:56,639
of proof, I always say that the burden of proof

986
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,119
for atheists is the same burden of proof that a

987
01:00:59,239 --> 01:01:03,519
defense attorney has in an American criminal court, and it's

988
01:01:03,559 --> 01:01:06,320
simply just to show that there is reasonable doubt.

989
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,079
Speaker 3: I would agree with that, or I would I would

990
01:01:11,079 --> 01:01:13,400
phrase it slightly differently. I would I would say that

991
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,719
if it's it's it's not a it's not really dependent

992
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:23,280
on anything of the defense attorney. What it's depending on

993
01:01:23,519 --> 01:01:27,199
is whether or not the prosecutor makes their case. Now,

994
01:01:27,239 --> 01:01:29,639
their case can fail in a variety of different ways.

995
01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:32,800
Maybe the judge throws out some of their claims, maybe

996
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,719
they maybe they just have a bad argument, or or

997
01:01:36,159 --> 01:01:38,599
one of the options is that the defense is able

998
01:01:38,639 --> 01:01:41,320
to poke holes in the claim. But when we're talking

999
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,440
about a burden of proof, I think the word burden

1000
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,960
there is is important right when when if you if

1001
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,000
you want to make a claim, you are shouldering that burden,

1002
01:01:51,039 --> 01:01:54,039
You are adopting that burden. So I prefer when when

1003
01:01:54,119 --> 01:01:56,000
talking about the burden of proof, I don't like to

1004
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,920
just to separate between atheist and theist, because an eighth

1005
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,320
theists can certainly say things that require proof, and a

1006
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:07,400
theist can say things that don't require a burden of proof,

1007
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,679
and so it's just that most of their theists claims

1008
01:02:10,719 --> 01:02:15,519
do but it's people that are making a positive assertion

1009
01:02:15,679 --> 01:02:19,320
about something that is they're saying something is true. They're

1010
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,800
saying something is the case to me. When somebody says that,

1011
01:02:24,519 --> 01:02:28,119
then they are adopting the burden of proof, and so

1012
01:02:28,119 --> 01:02:30,360
so then the rest of us can just say, how

1013
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,559
do you know that? How can you show that that's

1014
01:02:32,639 --> 01:02:35,360
the case. And whether or not they're saying that there's

1015
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,199
a God, whether or not they're saying that there is

1016
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,280
no God, which is not something that I assert. I'm

1017
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,840
not that type of an atheist. I don't say that

1018
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:46,800
I know that there's no God, or I don't even

1019
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:50,360
say that I believe that there's no God. I'm saying

1020
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,920
that I haven't seen an argument from a theist that

1021
01:02:53,039 --> 01:02:57,719
makes their case, and so that's not a well I suppose,

1022
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,320
you know, if you want to be pedantic here, than

1023
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,079
that would in fact be a claim. And so then

1024
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,320
they say, you haven't seen an argument that makes the case,

1025
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,039
then prove that to me. And so then I can

1026
01:03:07,079 --> 01:03:09,719
describe the types of arguments that I've heard, and I

1027
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,679
can point out the problems with those arguments as I

1028
01:03:12,719 --> 01:03:15,719
see them. But if I'm not claiming that, if I'm

1029
01:03:15,719 --> 01:03:18,480
not making a statement about reality, then I'm not shouldering

1030
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,920
that burden of proof. And that's really the bottom line.

1031
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean to me, you know, I always say this,

1032
01:03:27,159 --> 01:03:28,800
you know, when it comes to theis and they want

1033
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,840
to say that yes there's a God, I say, okay,

1034
01:03:32,079 --> 01:03:35,599
you have to show it beyond a reasonable doubt, you know.

1035
01:03:37,519 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to I want to push back

1036
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,760
a little bit too, because I want to push back

1037
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,960
because the court room example is great. However, I would

1038
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:50,159
say that like poking holes in the other argument, isn't

1039
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:52,519
you don't have the burden to do that, Like as

1040
01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:56,199
if we're thinking about the claim guilty or not guilty,

1041
01:03:56,239 --> 01:03:59,119
it's not the claim of guilty versus innocent. Like the

1042
01:03:59,159 --> 01:04:02,480
defense does not how to prove that the defendant is innocent.

1043
01:04:02,559 --> 01:04:03,239
Speaker 2: They just have to.

1044
01:04:05,159 --> 01:04:08,239
Speaker 1: Their job is to kind of like you were saying,

1045
01:04:10,039 --> 01:04:13,559
show if there's any any reasonable doubt and show if

1046
01:04:13,599 --> 01:04:17,119
the prosecution has met their burden or not. So I

1047
01:04:17,159 --> 01:04:19,480
would say there isn't a burden on the defense. The

1048
01:04:19,519 --> 01:04:23,599
burden is on the prosecution and at the end of

1049
01:04:23,599 --> 01:04:27,119
the day, they have to like convince the jury that

1050
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:31,000
the person is guilty. And if they cannot do that,

1051
01:04:31,239 --> 01:04:32,960
then they have not met their burden. But there's no

1052
01:04:33,159 --> 01:04:37,159
there's no burden on the defense to make a case

1053
01:04:37,159 --> 01:04:39,239
that the person is innocent. Does that make sense?

1054
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 12: Well, yeah, and that's that's my point, you know, you know,

1055
01:04:44,559 --> 01:04:47,480
I uh, well, last night I was watching some of

1056
01:04:47,519 --> 01:04:51,119
the mini series of American Crime Story on OJ Simpson.

1057
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,599
They didn't really prove that OJ didn't do it. They

1058
01:04:54,719 --> 01:04:58,480
just showed that. I mean, basically, Johnny Cochrane's whole case

1059
01:04:58,639 --> 01:05:02,320
was Mark Furman's a race, and that put into the

1060
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,800
mind of the jury maybe some doubts did he actually

1061
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,159
do it or was he framed?

1062
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:11,079
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1063
01:05:11,119 --> 01:05:13,679
Speaker 1: So also all it did was was say could this

1064
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:19,800
person be convicted under this these specific charges that were

1065
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:21,960
brought against them? And something else too, like if somebody

1066
01:05:22,039 --> 01:05:26,920
is is charged with certain crimes, like they could be

1067
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,280
found not guilty because they even if they did it,

1068
01:05:33,119 --> 01:05:35,480
but if they didn't do the crime that was that

1069
01:05:35,519 --> 01:05:40,360
they're being charged with, they're not necessarily going to be convicted.

1070
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,400
And it's still not a situation where the defense has

1071
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:46,239
the burden there. So I agree with Scott that we

1072
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:50,159
need to be careful about the use of burden because

1073
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:54,360
in this case there isn't an obligation to have to put.

1074
01:05:54,239 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 2: Up that case.

1075
01:05:55,320 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: So but otherwise, like I I do agree with most

1076
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:03,119
of what you're saying. I know this this particular point

1077
01:06:03,119 --> 01:06:04,239
is a little bit pantic, but.

1078
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,159
Speaker 12: Yeah, well, I mean it's just my feelings, you know. Again,

1079
01:06:09,199 --> 01:06:12,760
I feel that, you know, everybody said, you know, when Chris,

1080
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,000
when any theist comes and says, well, you can't prove

1081
01:06:16,039 --> 01:06:19,159
God doesn't exist, and that's their whole argument is like,

1082
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:21,639
you know, yeah, I can't prove God doesn't exist anymore

1083
01:06:21,639 --> 01:06:25,000
that I can prove that, you know, the Lockness Monster, Bigfoot,

1084
01:06:25,039 --> 01:06:30,280
the Abominable Snowman, Tchoopacabra, the last cities of Atlantis, Eldorado

1085
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,599
or shankro Lotte don't exist? Does that mean they do?

1086
01:06:36,679 --> 01:06:40,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're getting into like a Russell's teapot argument here,

1087
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:45,400
and I think we're just framing that slightly differently, but yeah,

1088
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,159
we're on the same page, I think with that.

1089
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:49,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.

1090
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,239
Speaker 12: I mean it's just you know, you know, again, how

1091
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:56,480
many how many defense attorneys when cases just by showing

1092
01:06:56,559 --> 01:07:01,519
reasonable doubt, you know, by saying right, you know, hey, that's.

1093
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 3: The point there. So so that what they're by I'm sorry.

1094
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:07,400
I'm sorry, Jim, you finished, and then.

1095
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 12: Also oh oh yeah again. They don't completely say the

1096
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,559
guy didn't do it. They just said there is enough

1097
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:18,599
doubt they maybe he's innocent.

1098
01:07:20,199 --> 01:07:23,199
Speaker 3: Right, So so they do that. They do that to

1099
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,679
show that the prosecution has failed to make their case.

1100
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:29,519
What they're so what they're doing when they when they're

1101
01:07:29,519 --> 01:07:32,599
showing reasonable doubt, as you said, what they're doing is

1102
01:07:32,639 --> 01:07:37,519
they're saying, the prosecution has the obligation to make their

1103
01:07:37,559 --> 01:07:42,480
case beyond a reasonable doubt. Here I see reasonable doubt. Therefore,

1104
01:07:42,559 --> 01:07:45,159
the prosecution has failed to make their case beyond a

1105
01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:48,360
reasonable doubt. And so the defense is not obligated to

1106
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:52,639
make it to demonstrate reasonable doubt. But they can. That's

1107
01:07:52,679 --> 01:07:54,800
one of the ways that they can that they can

1108
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:58,480
show that the prosecution hasn't made their case. And it's

1109
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:03,000
different just because you're not obligated to to prove your statement,

1110
01:08:03,519 --> 01:08:07,760
you still have that option. It's just you haven't adopted

1111
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:12,320
that burden. You're not making a statement that requires that

1112
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,039
kind of of support. You're not making a statement that

1113
01:08:15,199 --> 01:08:19,520
the universe is a particular way. What you're saying is

1114
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,880
you have failed to make your case and that's what

1115
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:24,039
we do. That's what we do here.

1116
01:08:28,239 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 12: Well, sometimes when I'm debating the iss kind of what

1117
01:08:31,039 --> 01:08:34,119
I say, you know, you have not proven that your

1118
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:39,319
particular god, whichever god it is, exists beyond a reasonable doubt.

1119
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:45,319
M So it's very possible that there is no god.

1120
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:48,319
Speaker 6: All right?

1121
01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:50,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if if they failed to make their case,

1122
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:51,800
then that's where you got to land.

1123
01:08:54,319 --> 01:08:57,279
Speaker 1: Anything else. I feel like we're in agreement here. Anything

1124
01:08:57,279 --> 01:08:58,920
else you wanted to bring up for your.

1125
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,159
Speaker 3: Life, we stand in violence agreement.

1126
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 2: We stand in agreement.

1127
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 12: Oh darn, we were in violent agreement.

1128
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:07,119
Speaker 5: How about that?

1129
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 12: You know, hey, you know nothing really no, but I

1130
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,359
got to bring it out, you know, to where I'm

1131
01:09:16,359 --> 01:09:18,359
sure there are bright people in the queue are probably saying,

1132
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:22,319
you know, getting mad at me, but hey, it's the truth.

1133
01:09:24,039 --> 01:09:26,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, thank you for your callge a reasonable doubt.

1134
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:29,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks Jim, thank you, thank you so much.

1135
01:09:30,279 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 2: Have a great rest of today.

1136
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:34,560
Speaker 3: All right.

1137
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 1: I believe we had some other super chats come in

1138
01:09:41,199 --> 01:09:44,760
before we get onto the next caller. We had one

1139
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:50,039
from Daisy with multiple wives who gave ten dollars saying

1140
01:09:50,159 --> 01:09:53,079
I would advocate anti theism if it weren't so easily

1141
01:09:53,239 --> 01:09:56,640
conflated with bigotry. I prefer if people believe things with

1142
01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:05,359
good reasons, and I doubt that religion can lead to that. Yeah,

1143
01:10:05,399 --> 01:10:10,079
all right, Well we have some more callers coming in.

1144
01:10:10,239 --> 01:10:14,439
Let's talk to Miller. He him from Michigan, wants to

1145
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:21,439
talk about the dark path that religion can often get to. Uh, Miller,

1146
01:10:22,079 --> 01:10:24,079
would you like to kind of tell us a bit

1147
01:10:24,119 --> 01:10:24,760
more about this?

1148
01:10:27,199 --> 01:10:30,600
Speaker 10: Sure? By the way, thank you for having me on,

1149
01:10:33,079 --> 01:10:34,159
Thank you here for you.

1150
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:36,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's up?

1151
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,319
Speaker 10: Just thinking out loud. I was listening to your show

1152
01:10:41,399 --> 01:10:44,159
on YouTube and your number was there, so I decided

1153
01:10:44,199 --> 01:10:44,680
to call in.

1154
01:10:47,319 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 9: I used to.

1155
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 10: I used to be part of a church and now

1156
01:10:51,880 --> 01:11:00,279
I'm not. But I was thinking that it's weird how

1157
01:11:00,319 --> 01:11:04,680
our minds work as humans, that we're trying to find

1158
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,039
answers here and there, and we kind of go everywhere

1159
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:11,119
and in the end, where do you know where? The

1160
01:11:11,159 --> 01:11:11,920
best answer is.

1161
01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:17,239
Speaker 2: That.

1162
01:11:18,119 --> 01:11:22,159
Speaker 1: It's a good question. It sounds like you have some

1163
01:11:23,079 --> 01:11:24,760
do you have some other thoughts about that? Like have

1164
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:26,720
you thought about this deeply on your own?

1165
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 5: I have.

1166
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 10: Things that are told to you that in general they're

1167
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:41,479
good advice that come from religious backgrounds or churches and

1168
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,039
things like that. But really, in the end, it doesn't

1169
01:11:44,039 --> 01:11:47,079
have to come from there, but it's talked about it

1170
01:11:47,079 --> 01:11:51,319
in the church, and you try to follow certain rules,

1171
01:11:51,359 --> 01:11:54,239
you try to do certain things, be the right person,

1172
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:58,960
and then when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter.

1173
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:01,680
You are who you are.

1174
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 11: Yeah, I guess to yourself, well, how I act to me,

1175
01:12:14,399 --> 01:12:15,079
it does, but.

1176
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,760
Speaker 10: Like how I act matters to me as well, but

1177
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:23,720
it doesn't matter to the people around you as much.

1178
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:26,079
Speaker 9: And religions.

1179
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:34,119
Speaker 10: Basically, what I'm getting at is, for example, uh, you

1180
01:12:34,159 --> 01:12:36,880
should be married in the church.

1181
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:40,560
Speaker 11: Is that true or false?

1182
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 10: Who knows?

1183
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 12: But is it better?

1184
01:12:46,159 --> 01:12:50,159
Speaker 10: Yes it is, but is an absolute. It's not an absolute,

1185
01:12:50,239 --> 01:12:53,800
and you learn that there's no absolutes, and it's tricky

1186
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:55,560
and messes with your mind through life.

1187
01:12:57,760 --> 01:12:59,399
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean they're definitely.

1188
01:13:00,199 --> 01:13:03,119
Speaker 1: I can see where it gets confusing with rules of

1189
01:13:03,159 --> 01:13:06,640
religion and what rules are set because they make you

1190
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,000
a better person, and what rules are set just because

1191
01:13:09,039 --> 01:13:12,800
this is tradition and this is what we do in

1192
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:16,039
our community and this is something. Marriage is a great

1193
01:13:16,319 --> 01:13:19,600
example of where this is problematic because people will take

1194
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:23,479
marriage and think that it is a like a moral thing,

1195
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:27,880
like this is the covenant between a husband, a wife

1196
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:33,560
and God, and only straight people can get married in

1197
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:37,640
the church, and they end up using that as some

1198
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:42,439
kind of like they take ownership over the institution of marriage.

1199
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:48,039
And so it's definitely something where even in my past

1200
01:13:48,079 --> 01:13:52,439
I thought that getting married was virtuous and coming out

1201
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:55,359
of religion. Like, you know, marriage is a great thing

1202
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:57,720
for a lot of people, But does it need to

1203
01:13:57,720 --> 01:13:59,039
be so connected to religion?

1204
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 2: Does it say anything about you as a person? No,

1205
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,920
not really. It's a it's a great thing for those

1206
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:07,159
people who want it. But yeah, that line.

1207
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:12,039
Speaker 1: Between what is tradition and what is moral value is

1208
01:14:12,079 --> 01:14:14,800
definitely blurred in a lot of religious cases.

1209
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:23,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to ask you, Miller about your So

1210
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:25,399
the notes in the in the from the call screener

1211
01:14:25,399 --> 01:14:28,880
say religion seems to give answers, but overall leads down

1212
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:34,079
a dark path. Are you saying that religion inevitably leads

1213
01:14:34,119 --> 01:14:38,000
to some dark place or are you saying that because

1214
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:40,720
if you are saying that, if you're making the stronger

1215
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,199
form of this statement, I would I would disagree with you.

1216
01:14:43,239 --> 01:14:48,399
As a matter of fact, I don't think principally, I

1217
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:52,520
don't think in its nature religion is going to lead

1218
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,359
you down to the wrong place. The reason that I

1219
01:14:56,399 --> 01:14:58,840
have trouble with religion, and maybe you agree with me

1220
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:02,600
on this, is is that if you base your decision

1221
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:09,560
making on irrational beliefs, of which every every circumstance of

1222
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:12,960
religion that I've seen, at least I would say that

1223
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:18,000
that's irrational. I'd be happy to address that deeper at

1224
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:21,680
a particular case if anybody else would like to discuss that,

1225
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:25,479
I would say that it happened. It gives you the

1226
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:28,239
risk of leading down to a dark place, but it

1227
01:15:28,239 --> 01:15:32,319
doesn't necessarily guarantee that. For example, I could design a

1228
01:15:32,399 --> 01:15:35,960
religion that is super awesome and that is really good

1229
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,920
for the world, and that makes people happy and productive

1230
01:15:39,399 --> 01:15:42,039
and helps us to love each other and get along

1231
01:15:42,079 --> 01:15:45,199
with each other and so forth. Now that wouldn't necessarily

1232
01:15:45,199 --> 01:15:48,800
mean that it's a good thing to believe that, even

1233
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:52,680
though they had good outcomes, because I would be also,

1234
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:56,119
in addition to preaching my religion, I would have to

1235
01:15:56,159 --> 01:15:59,960
accompany that with the assumption that it's okay to believe

1236
01:16:00,079 --> 01:16:03,920
the irrational things, which to me, that's the crook that

1237
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:06,680
gets me, that's the hook that pulls me back in.

1238
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,000
Is that if you're implying that it's good to have

1239
01:16:10,079 --> 01:16:13,079
irrational beliefs, then I disagree with you. Is that what

1240
01:16:13,119 --> 01:16:16,960
you're saying or were you're saying? More that religion by

1241
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:20,600
its very nature will lead us to someplace dark?

1242
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:29,359
Speaker 10: Let's see, you said, will it lead you to can

1243
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:32,800
it lead you to have irrational beliefs?

1244
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 3: Well, what I'm asking is I said, so there's I

1245
01:16:36,279 --> 01:16:39,479
just made a distinction between the statement that religion leads

1246
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:44,560
you to someplace dark versus I don't know, maybe softening

1247
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,000
in a little bit and saying that if you do

1248
01:16:47,159 --> 01:16:50,039
have religious beliefs, or I would rather phrase that as

1249
01:16:50,119 --> 01:16:55,760
if you have your unrational beliefs, irrational beliefs, then you

1250
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:58,840
would run the risk of ending up at a dark place,

1251
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,399
and you're more likely to end up at a dark place.

1252
01:17:02,319 --> 01:17:03,560
Do you see the distinction there?

1253
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:04,239
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1254
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 3: And so what's your take on that? What what's your position?

1255
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:08,920
What are you trying to say here?

1256
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 10: The irrational beliefs that can lead you to a dark place?

1257
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:21,800
That's well stated, for example, you should be married before

1258
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:24,920
having children. That rational or irrational?

1259
01:17:25,199 --> 01:17:25,800
Speaker 12: It can.

1260
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:30,840
Speaker 10: In today's world, It's like it's not that irrational, but

1261
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:35,000
one hundred years ago that was rational. How do things

1262
01:17:35,199 --> 01:17:40,399
switch between rational and irrational so it gets molded into

1263
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:42,399
society to where.

1264
01:17:42,399 --> 01:17:45,640
Speaker 1: That's just mentioned, we're just talking about cultural norms at

1265
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:50,640
that point. We're talking about cultural norms, which I don't

1266
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:54,359
know if we need to really get too far right

1267
01:17:54,399 --> 01:17:57,439
into rational versus irrational. As far as cultural norms, we

1268
01:17:57,479 --> 01:17:59,800
can have talks about like does this need to be

1269
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:03,640
in force, like is this principle for moral good or

1270
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:07,199
is this just something that is specific to that culture

1271
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:09,600
in that place and time.

1272
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:14,199
Speaker 2: Like, there are plenty of religious things that.

1273
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 1: You know, could be irrational but really don't have much

1274
01:18:21,159 --> 01:18:24,680
significance other than like if somebody goes to the temple

1275
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,319
to go have some quiet time alone in that scene

1276
01:18:28,319 --> 01:18:31,319
as a positive thing in that religion. But if somebody

1277
01:18:31,399 --> 01:18:34,159
is not, you know, having the beliefs related to that,

1278
01:18:34,239 --> 01:18:35,960
but still think, you know, it's a great thing for

1279
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:38,680
me to go meditate to this temple. I don't know

1280
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:40,600
if I care so much about whether or not that

1281
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,640
particular aspect is rational or irrational.

1282
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:44,640
Speaker 2: They're they're not.

1283
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:50,199
Speaker 1: Making any claims that you're better than other people if

1284
01:18:50,239 --> 01:18:52,760
you do that, So I think it's it's depending on

1285
01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:57,640
how you use that how you enforce those social norms, because,

1286
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:01,000
like I mean, a great example of this is how

1287
01:19:01,119 --> 01:19:06,239
gender is presented in society, because if you think about sociologically,

1288
01:19:06,319 --> 01:19:09,560
gender is a performance, and even though you have your

1289
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:13,880
own internal sense of gender identity, if you go outside

1290
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:17,079
of your own culture to another one, you'll still oftentimes

1291
01:19:17,119 --> 01:19:22,680
pick the expressions and the norms that relate to your identity,

1292
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:24,800
even though they are completely different. Things like there are

1293
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,680
cultures that will have men who wear skirts and men

1294
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:30,439
who wear dresses, men who wear makeup, and that's if

1295
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:33,640
you're a man in a society that doesn't use those things,

1296
01:19:34,199 --> 01:19:36,720
going to that culture, you might adopt that stuff because

1297
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:39,960
it's seen as masculine, and that is how you're performing

1298
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:43,920
your gender. Do I think that gender as a concept

1299
01:19:44,079 --> 01:19:48,680
is irrational? No, doesn't have a whole lot of moral significance.

1300
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:51,279
Like is there morality to being a man versus being

1301
01:19:51,279 --> 01:19:54,560
a woman? No, absolutely not. It's something that I think

1302
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:57,520
can be a bit more abstract and that's okay, and

1303
01:19:57,560 --> 01:20:01,079
not necessarily have a certain set of more value. It's

1304
01:20:01,119 --> 01:20:04,960
just if it's how you're enforcing these things within that society,

1305
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:07,920
that is where we need to care about more.

1306
01:20:08,039 --> 01:20:09,279
Speaker 2: Does any of that make sense?

1307
01:20:11,319 --> 01:20:15,479
Speaker 10: It does make sense to us. I'll be more specific

1308
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:22,520
in my question. There's somebody I'm interested in. I don't

1309
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:26,720
believe in having children before marriage. In other words, basically,

1310
01:20:27,079 --> 01:20:28,680
don't have kids before you get married.

1311
01:20:30,199 --> 01:20:31,399
Speaker 11: I used to be part of a church.

1312
01:20:31,439 --> 01:20:34,159
Speaker 10: I'm not anymore, but I still hold on to that belief,

1313
01:20:34,199 --> 01:20:37,479
even though it was ingrained in me through the church

1314
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:41,479
that you know, you do things in a very conservative way,

1315
01:20:42,239 --> 01:20:44,479
and that's with me. But I'm no longer part of

1316
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:46,560
the church, and.

1317
01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:49,520
Speaker 13: I get in the yes and several times, and it's

1318
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,880
irritating to me that I don't think you should have

1319
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:57,319
kids before marriage, and I find being put down for that.

1320
01:20:57,399 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 11: It's like, what the hell do you think?

1321
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:03,199
Speaker 1: That it's okay to have that viewpoint for yourself, but

1322
01:21:03,239 --> 01:21:03,680
maybe not.

1323
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:05,680
Speaker 2: I think that other.

1324
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 1: People need to have that same idea, Like are you

1325
01:21:09,039 --> 01:21:11,760
going into public spaces and or are you engaging with

1326
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:13,640
people and telling them that they have to agree with

1327
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:14,079
you on this.

1328
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 10: I don't tell people they have to agree with me.

1329
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:20,079
It's what I'm looking for in a partner. And I

1330
01:21:20,119 --> 01:21:22,319
get put down for it because I'm not interested in

1331
01:21:22,359 --> 01:21:23,479
somebody because.

1332
01:21:23,119 --> 01:21:26,680
Speaker 3: Of that do you get put down by your potential partners?

1333
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:28,279
Is that who we're talking about or is it like

1334
01:21:28,319 --> 01:21:29,039
your friends or.

1335
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:33,279
Speaker 10: Something potential partners?

1336
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:35,720
Speaker 3: Right, Well, then I'll signal that they wouldn't make a

1337
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:39,039
very good partner for you. Yeah, if they disagree with you,

1338
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:42,119
if they not only disagree with you, but mock you

1339
01:21:42,239 --> 01:21:45,479
because you disagree to me, that doesn't make it doesn't

1340
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:47,079
make a great great partner.

1341
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 1: I mean, And it's it's okay to have preferences in

1342
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:56,199
how you Like, no one is required to have like

1343
01:21:56,319 --> 01:21:58,720
intimate relations before marriage.

1344
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:01,159
Speaker 2: You're not even required to do that in your marriage.

1345
01:22:01,279 --> 01:22:04,800
Speaker 1: Like your boundaries with your own body are for you,

1346
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:09,399
and so it's okay to have those conversations early on,

1347
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:13,439
like when you're pursuing a potential partner and you say, hey,

1348
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:17,960
this is like my preference for when I want to

1349
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:20,399
do something with my body or when I don't, and

1350
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:24,039
it's totally allowed, like have conversations about those boundaries. And

1351
01:22:24,079 --> 01:22:26,359
if that other partner, like if that other person is

1352
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:28,840
not on the same page or if they have different

1353
01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:31,880
needs than you, then you part ways and you say, hey,

1354
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:33,399
I don't think this is going to work out. I

1355
01:22:33,399 --> 01:22:37,079
don't think we're compatible. But it's totally okay to have

1356
01:22:37,119 --> 01:22:39,800
different viewpoints on that. But I would say instead of

1357
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:43,439
saying that this is like a moral issue of whether

1358
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:47,119
or not it's moral or not to have kids before marriage,

1359
01:22:47,279 --> 01:22:50,000
I think keep that as a boundary for yourself, but

1360
01:22:50,039 --> 01:22:53,199
then still respect other people that are going to think

1361
01:22:53,199 --> 01:22:54,000
about it differently.

1362
01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:59,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I would just throw in two that if

1363
01:23:00,119 --> 01:23:02,159
if you find a partner, if you don't want to

1364
01:23:02,199 --> 01:23:05,000
have kids until after you're born or until after you're married.

1365
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:08,479
Obviously after you're born, but if you don't want to

1366
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:10,479
have kids until after you're married, and you find a

1367
01:23:10,479 --> 01:23:13,640
partner that is agreeable to that, whether they're religious or not,

1368
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:18,399
please take the initiative to participate in the birth control

1369
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:22,720
efforts of your of your partnership there. I mean, if,

1370
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:25,239
especially in the cases where if you're the one who

1371
01:23:25,279 --> 01:23:28,680
doesn't want to have children, then please make sure that

1372
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:33,439
you are, you know, putting an effort in in the

1373
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:36,560
birth control arena and not just leaving it up to

1374
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:37,920
your partner. Yep.

1375
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:41,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, especially if you believe in that.

1376
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:46,079
Speaker 3: Huh, Yeah, you better. Yeah, put your money where your

1377
01:23:46,079 --> 01:23:47,520
mouth is, so to speak.

1378
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:50,239
Speaker 2: All right, Yeah, does does all that help? Work.

1379
01:23:51,319 --> 01:23:53,479
Speaker 1: We've got We've got other calls to get to. But

1380
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:55,479
does that does that answer your question?

1381
01:23:57,359 --> 01:23:57,560
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1382
01:23:57,640 --> 01:23:59,840
Speaker 11: It does. You guys are great cool.

1383
01:24:00,039 --> 01:24:01,960
Speaker 2: All right, thanks Miller, thank you so much for your call.

1384
01:24:02,039 --> 01:24:08,199
I have a great day. All right.

1385
01:24:08,279 --> 01:24:11,399
Speaker 1: We have a theist waiting in the queue. I am

1386
01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:14,880
excited for this. Let's talk to Sheldon. He him from

1387
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:19,560
New York. Sheldon, you are live on the Atheis experience.

1388
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:22,600
It sounds like you want to talk about Jesus Christ,

1389
01:24:23,119 --> 01:24:26,399
that he is God. What you got for us?

1390
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:34,039
Speaker 9: All right? I would ask to call by versatal chat

1391
01:24:34,119 --> 01:24:38,239
that everyone and they're actually continue They actually listened to

1392
01:24:39,119 --> 01:24:42,680
your program and they asked me to have a discussion

1393
01:24:43,319 --> 01:24:47,560
and then they asked me to call and they told

1394
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:49,560
me this. I want to try the program work, to

1395
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:53,680
be honest, and I would ask what do I believe

1396
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:57,319
and why I'm not asking anybody to believe anything I believe.

1397
01:24:58,039 --> 01:25:02,079
I'm not how I believe. I believe that you make

1398
01:25:02,159 --> 01:25:05,720
judgments but for yourself. So I agree with a lot

1399
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:07,840
of stuff that you were talking about just now with

1400
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:13,800
the gentleman. I do believe Christ was, he was born,

1401
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,279
he died, and he rose again. I believe that he

1402
01:25:17,319 --> 01:25:21,439
has spoken to me. He answers to Jesus and he

1403
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:28,039
says he's God. So I don't last fifty plus years

1404
01:25:28,079 --> 01:25:31,199
that he's spoken to me. He's, as far as I

1405
01:25:31,239 --> 01:25:35,479
can tell, not lie to me. And with that track record,

1406
01:25:36,079 --> 01:25:38,880
I believe him. I believe he's He and that's what

1407
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:42,680
he answers to and that's why I believe what I believe.

1408
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:50,000
Speaker 2: Okay, what else? What else? What? Sheldon? What specifically convinced.

1409
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:55,800
Speaker 9: You that he is what he says he is? Like

1410
01:25:55,840 --> 01:25:59,079
I said, over the past fifty plus years, I mean

1411
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:04,800
he's in guiding me, not that I've been listening. I said,

1412
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:06,359
how has he been today?

1413
01:26:06,399 --> 01:26:08,560
Speaker 1: How has he been guiding you? Does do you hear

1414
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:13,439
an audible voice? Do you feel something? What is this experience?

1415
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:14,720
Speaker 3: Like story of a voice?

1416
01:26:15,399 --> 01:26:20,199
Speaker 9: I have heard an audible voice. I have been shown uh,

1417
01:26:20,319 --> 01:26:25,800
future events if I make certain decisions literally shown almost

1418
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:29,760
like a video. And but I still make the decisions

1419
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:32,399
that I want to make because I wasn't told not

1420
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:34,119
to make it. I was told I shouldn't make it.

1421
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:38,920
And here's why. The things that I was shown they

1422
01:26:39,039 --> 01:26:42,840
come the past, not asking anyone to believe and anything.

1423
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 1: I say, But like what what kind of things the

1424
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,560
judgment what kind of things have have you predicted?

1425
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:51,000
Speaker 5: Not me?

1426
01:26:51,119 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 9: I didn't predict anything. I was shown I wanted to

1427
01:26:55,479 --> 01:27:00,920
help some people financially, and nobody would normally do what

1428
01:27:01,039 --> 01:27:04,159
I did. Actually, I purchased the house to help.

1429
01:27:04,039 --> 01:27:07,239
Speaker 1: Them, but I was told beforehand it doesn't do not

1430
01:27:08,079 --> 01:27:11,199
But wait, so you bought a house for people who

1431
01:27:11,239 --> 01:27:14,119
needed one. That doesn't sound like anything supernatural. That sounds

1432
01:27:14,159 --> 01:27:17,800
like you did a good thing for other people. That's

1433
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:18,640
almost something you did.

1434
01:27:19,079 --> 01:27:23,279
Speaker 9: I wanted. I wanted to help these people, and I

1435
01:27:23,319 --> 01:27:26,680
was told if I did right, and I was shown,

1436
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:33,279
I would lose my shirt and and ws and it

1437
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:37,960
basically became a financial nightmare for me to the point

1438
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:41,720
where I was, I mean completely financially devastated because of

1439
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:46,560
stuff they did. But my name basically was on a property.

1440
01:27:47,199 --> 01:27:51,640
I was getting fines. I spoke to them and they wouldn't.

1441
01:27:51,960 --> 01:27:55,319
They parked a truck on the premises, and I'm living

1442
01:27:55,319 --> 01:27:59,000
in New York City. That's the type of truck is

1443
01:27:59,039 --> 01:28:04,920
a bigger truck is illegal to block on that type

1444
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:07,279
of premises, but I don't know about it. I was

1445
01:28:07,279 --> 01:28:11,199
getting fined. I twenty five hundred dollars the day they

1446
01:28:11,319 --> 01:28:15,159
parked another one, so ied to go to court the judge,

1447
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:16,119
I'll be out of it.

1448
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:19,680
Speaker 3: I think we're straying a little bit here, Sheldon. I

1449
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:23,279
don't think that those particular details are necessarily relevant, but

1450
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:25,119
maybe we can get to that if it turns out

1451
01:28:25,159 --> 01:28:27,640
to be relevant. But you've said a couple of times

1452
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:30,239
now that you don't want to try to get convinced

1453
01:28:30,239 --> 01:28:33,399
anybody else to believe what you believe. But do you

1454
01:28:33,439 --> 01:28:36,119
think it's important that you have good reasons to believe

1455
01:28:36,119 --> 01:28:40,079
what you believe? Or so that's one option you think

1456
01:28:40,119 --> 01:28:42,880
that it's it's important to have good reasons to believe

1457
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:46,960
what you believe, or if you didn't have good reasons

1458
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:50,000
to believe your religious beliefs, do you want to believe

1459
01:28:50,039 --> 01:28:54,039
them anyway? What's more important to you? Knowing the truth

1460
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:57,600
or believing in God? Which may be the same thing.

1461
01:28:58,119 --> 01:29:00,079
They may not be. But if you had to choose one, and.

1462
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:05,840
Speaker 9: Truth is like I said, okay.

1463
01:29:06,279 --> 01:29:09,199
Speaker 3: Okay, So then when you say something like I'm not

1464
01:29:09,279 --> 01:29:13,039
here to convince anybody else of anything, that's fine. Of

1465
01:29:13,079 --> 01:29:16,079
course you're not obligated to do that. But what I

1466
01:29:16,079 --> 01:29:18,880
want to know is how did you convince yourself that

1467
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:26,159
this was true? There's some weird things happen that you

1468
01:29:26,199 --> 01:29:29,399
can't explain. How do you get to a god from that?

1469
01:29:33,359 --> 01:29:38,079
Speaker 9: I guess the audible voice that has said certain things

1470
01:29:38,079 --> 01:29:41,479
to me mm hmm within the fift people here that

1471
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:42,119
I've been around.

1472
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:46,520
Speaker 3: Okay, so you're hearing voices, that's one. Okay, what's next,

1473
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:51,680
voice a voice? Okay, that's fine, you hear your You

1474
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:54,800
heard a voice, Sheldon?

1475
01:29:54,880 --> 01:29:58,960
Speaker 1: Do you think that every time? Let's even just let's

1476
01:29:59,039 --> 01:30:01,399
let's take this first thing. You so you heard a voice.

1477
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,039
Do you think that everyone who says that they have

1478
01:30:04,159 --> 01:30:09,159
heard a voice all actually did? Or do you think

1479
01:30:09,159 --> 01:30:12,319
that some people think that they heard something but they didn't.

1480
01:30:13,039 --> 01:30:13,079
Speaker 2: No?

1481
01:30:13,239 --> 01:30:15,359
Speaker 9: Right, No, I know I know what you're saying. No,

1482
01:30:15,399 --> 01:30:17,439
not everybody it says they hear.

1483
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:21,439
Speaker 1: So how do how do you know that the voice

1484
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:24,279
you heard was a real voice? And then how do

1485
01:30:24,319 --> 01:30:28,439
you know that that voice was God's voice?

1486
01:30:29,199 --> 01:30:32,840
Speaker 9: Well, that that voice eventually told me I am God.

1487
01:30:33,439 --> 01:30:37,319
So if I believe the voice and the voice says

1488
01:30:37,359 --> 01:30:40,319
I am God, then I have to believe I am

1489
01:30:40,359 --> 01:30:41,239
God is the.

1490
01:30:41,279 --> 01:30:46,760
Speaker 3: Voice we're asking, why did you believe the voice?

1491
01:30:47,119 --> 01:30:47,359
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1492
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:53,159
Speaker 9: Everything the voice had told me does far either has

1493
01:30:53,159 --> 01:30:55,680
come to pass or has been proven true.

1494
01:30:56,439 --> 01:30:59,359
Speaker 3: Right, But people that are not God can tell the truth.

1495
01:31:00,359 --> 01:31:03,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and at least the story that you were

1496
01:31:03,479 --> 01:31:06,239
starting to tell us sounds very mundane, like the things

1497
01:31:06,319 --> 01:31:14,039
like getting fines on the street, going into financial distress

1498
01:31:14,079 --> 01:31:16,920
because you're trying to do something for somebody else, and

1499
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:19,880
then buying a house to help somebody, like all of that,

1500
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:24,039
whether or not you thought you saw that coming, Like,

1501
01:31:24,079 --> 01:31:27,760
that's all very benign stuff and could happen coincidentally, I

1502
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:33,680
know so many people who would describe similar experiences. So

1503
01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:36,479
how do I understand?

1504
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:37,279
Speaker 2: How do I know.

1505
01:31:37,279 --> 01:31:41,680
Speaker 1: That you are having actual God experiences and not just

1506
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:45,199
having your own thoughts in your head that that tell

1507
01:31:45,239 --> 01:31:47,319
you to do certain things?

1508
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:49,279
Speaker 9: How do you or do I?

1509
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:52,960
Speaker 3: How would one know that?

1510
01:31:54,840 --> 01:32:00,479
Speaker 9: Okay, I don't know. If you could know, you could believe.

1511
01:32:00,279 --> 01:32:02,960
Speaker 3: It, or you don't, I guess Okay. So that so

1512
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:05,840
that's it seems like you're failing your own priority here.

1513
01:32:05,960 --> 01:32:09,319
You said you preferred truth over this God belief if

1514
01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:13,119
if you had to choose. Obviously, we're recognizing, at least

1515
01:32:13,159 --> 01:32:15,039
for the for the sake of this argument, that they

1516
01:32:15,079 --> 01:32:16,760
could both be true at the same time, but you're

1517
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,039
saying that you'd rather be true if it turns out

1518
01:32:19,079 --> 01:32:20,760
that there's no God. You want to you want to

1519
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:24,600
believe that, and so you don't seem to be really

1520
01:32:24,640 --> 01:32:28,640
given good reason to have that belief. You're you seem

1521
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:31,560
What it seems to me is that you're admitting that

1522
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:33,760
you don't have a good reason, but that you're just

1523
01:32:33,800 --> 01:32:38,319
believing anyway, which contradicts what you said earlier about what

1524
01:32:38,359 --> 01:32:39,239
your priority is.

1525
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:48,279
Speaker 9: Well, I can't physically prove something along this line that's

1526
01:32:48,319 --> 01:32:49,920
true if I don't.

1527
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:54,760
Speaker 3: Know how, okay, so so then so you can't prove

1528
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:56,359
it's true, so you shouldn't believe.

1529
01:32:56,079 --> 01:33:00,079
Speaker 9: It, right, so that the stuff that was said to

1530
01:33:00,119 --> 01:33:02,520
me is true so far?

1531
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:06,800
Speaker 2: But did did? But even in that voice, it did?

1532
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:11,640
Speaker 1: If the voice told you that it's God, like, I

1533
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:16,119
have so many questions because we've already discussed that just

1534
01:33:16,159 --> 01:33:19,399
because you heard a voice doesn't mean that it's true.

1535
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:22,600
But it also is confusing of how you get to

1536
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:30,079
specifically this particular God because you also mentioned the resurrection.

1537
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:32,840
Speaker 2: Of Jesus Christ and all that.

1538
01:33:33,359 --> 01:33:37,279
Speaker 1: It seems totally separate from like because what if what

1539
01:33:37,319 --> 01:33:39,720
if it was a different God that was speaking to you.

1540
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:42,600
What if it was Satan that was speaking to you? Like,

1541
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:44,920
I have so many questions, and I want to know

1542
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:49,319
how you got to this conclusion other than just having

1543
01:33:49,359 --> 01:33:51,399
a gut feeling that it that it was.

1544
01:33:54,359 --> 01:34:00,479
Speaker 9: I told you only seven minutes. So I I've read

1545
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:03,680
the Bible. I've studied Bible. Actually a lot of my

1546
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:08,199
answers actually came from the Bible as well, a lot

1547
01:34:08,199 --> 01:34:10,359
of my explanations came from the Bible as well.

1548
01:34:12,239 --> 01:34:15,560
Speaker 1: Which specific ones, which specific answers.

1549
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:24,279
Speaker 9: Other beings that I've seen, the Bible describes them as

1550
01:34:24,319 --> 01:34:28,560
ghosts or spirits, and I believe them to be spirits.

1551
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:32,960
Speaker 1: There are plenty of other religions that describe spirits.

1552
01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:33,880
Speaker 7: Uh.

1553
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:36,640
Speaker 1: And that's again something that you'd have to demonstrate. But

1554
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:40,479
but even let's let's pretend that spirits were were real.

1555
01:34:41,159 --> 01:34:43,159
Speaker 2: Uh, how did you?

1556
01:34:43,239 --> 01:34:45,840
Speaker 1: How does that get you to the Bible and not

1557
01:34:46,279 --> 01:34:48,800
another religion that believes in spirits?

1558
01:34:51,199 --> 01:34:55,640
Speaker 9: I the name that I was raised in. I had

1559
01:34:55,880 --> 01:35:00,319
friends of many religions that I've been exposed to, at

1560
01:35:00,399 --> 01:35:04,319
least four or five different other religions including his who

1561
01:35:04,359 --> 01:35:10,439
was Induism? Is Voodoo? Well not Voodoo particularly, but there's

1562
01:35:10,439 --> 01:35:15,079
a voodoo culture and different forms of Christianity as well.

1563
01:35:17,319 --> 01:35:22,600
So I have I haven't read the Koran yet, as

1564
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:24,159
I tried to get one for about thirty years and

1565
01:35:24,199 --> 01:35:29,319
I actually recently got one, but I have had uh

1566
01:35:30,199 --> 01:35:37,279
many interactions and many questions that I would have and

1567
01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:39,920
basically right of those other religions.

1568
01:35:41,319 --> 01:35:44,560
Speaker 1: But do you know as to answer, Yeah, that doesn't

1569
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:47,279
answer your question. How did you tease out which one

1570
01:35:47,279 --> 01:35:51,520
was correct, if any of them?

1571
01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:53,720
Speaker 3: Well, like I said, you're not following through on your

1572
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:56,359
own commitment to truth. By the way, you're not following

1573
01:35:56,359 --> 01:35:58,239
through on your own commitments. So if you really do

1574
01:35:58,359 --> 01:36:00,479
believe that, then you need to step up to the plate.

1575
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:05,520
Speaker 9: Here. When I started reading the Bible and I call

1576
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:10,039
on Jesus, this is the voice that answered. It's the

1577
01:36:10,079 --> 01:36:12,319
same voice I was talking to me before.

1578
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:17,399
Speaker 3: And what is there more than that? Or is that

1579
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:22,680
just it? You said, hey Jesus, and a voice in

1580
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,720
your said said, yo, what's up? Right? Is that what

1581
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:29,119
you're saying happened? And from that you believe that there's

1582
01:36:29,119 --> 01:36:30,399
a guy that Jesus is real?

1583
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:33,880
Speaker 9: The question? And I was told the question, I was

1584
01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:39,159
told the answer okay, and I didn't have at least

1585
01:36:39,199 --> 01:36:40,239
there are stories.

1586
01:36:41,279 --> 01:36:43,760
Speaker 1: There are stories of other people. There's stories of other

1587
01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:47,239
people who converted to Islam for the same reason. There

1588
01:36:47,239 --> 01:36:50,359
are people that have called out to Allah and believe

1589
01:36:50,399 --> 01:36:52,960
that he's the one that answered them. So if I

1590
01:36:53,079 --> 01:36:55,680
have you and that other person in front of me,

1591
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:57,800
and both of you are telling me your stories, I

1592
01:36:57,840 --> 01:37:01,439
can't believe both of you right, both of your stories

1593
01:37:01,439 --> 01:37:02,600
can't be true at the same time.

1594
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:11,079
Speaker 9: I'm as far as we're talking, I don't know that

1595
01:37:11,159 --> 01:37:11,920
could be possible.

1596
01:37:13,119 --> 01:37:16,199
Speaker 1: So how would I make the decision? So if I

1597
01:37:16,239 --> 01:37:19,680
had to listen to either one of you, how like,

1598
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:23,840
what would you tell me to convince me that your

1599
01:37:23,960 --> 01:37:26,079
God is the one that spoke and not that other

1600
01:37:26,119 --> 01:37:29,079
person's god.

1601
01:37:29,119 --> 01:37:32,359
Speaker 9: There we go. I wouldn't tell you anything to convince you.

1602
01:37:32,880 --> 01:37:33,680
That's not my job.

1603
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,199
Speaker 3: As far as I understand, what would you tell to

1604
01:37:36,239 --> 01:37:36,920
convince you?

1605
01:37:39,960 --> 01:37:41,479
Speaker 9: I'm already convinced.

1606
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:45,239
Speaker 3: So you're just saying you just believe it. That's it.

1607
01:37:45,319 --> 01:37:48,359
So again, you're you're violating your commitment to the truth.

1608
01:37:48,399 --> 01:37:52,000
There you said you shouldn't believe things without good reason.

1609
01:37:53,359 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 9: The voice of fifty plus years, and I'm not lied

1610
01:37:58,039 --> 01:38:01,239
to me to my knowledge as answer to the name

1611
01:38:01,359 --> 01:38:06,560
Jesus and knowed me. You still know I am God.

1612
01:38:07,399 --> 01:38:11,199
Whether that I have knowledgeab love it or not, I

1613
01:38:11,239 --> 01:38:11,840
have no idea.

1614
01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:15,359
Speaker 3: But this is what I choose to follow at the

1615
01:38:15,399 --> 01:38:16,600
one you choose to follow.

1616
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:20,239
Speaker 11: Okay, yeah, because I believe it could be true.

1617
01:38:21,239 --> 01:38:23,000
Speaker 3: Right, But you don't have a good reason to believe

1618
01:38:23,039 --> 01:38:25,680
it's true. You just said a couple times now that

1619
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:27,239
you just got to believe it reason.

1620
01:38:28,560 --> 01:38:31,159
Speaker 9: I believe I have a good reason. You don't believe.

1621
01:38:31,199 --> 01:38:32,119
I don't have a good reason.

1622
01:38:32,840 --> 01:38:33,760
Speaker 3: What's your good reason?

1623
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:41,479
Speaker 1: This voice is credible, and yet you have no evidence

1624
01:38:42,359 --> 01:38:46,680
that the voice is telling the truth. There's no evidence.

1625
01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:49,000
As far as I'm concerned that you even heard a voice.

1626
01:38:49,479 --> 01:38:50,960
Speaker 2: I could. I could call.

1627
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:52,960
Speaker 1: Into this show and say that I heard a voice,

1628
01:38:53,039 --> 01:38:56,399
and I've never even had that experience. I don't want

1629
01:38:56,439 --> 01:38:59,319
to discount your experience. I don't want to invalidate your experience.

1630
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:03,720
I want believe that you honestly believe this. But at

1631
01:39:03,720 --> 01:39:08,159
the same time, like I know that auditory hallucinations exist,

1632
01:39:08,319 --> 01:39:11,600
people have had them. I know that people have heard

1633
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:15,279
voices from other gods, or at least they claim to

1634
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:18,560
and so I'm just trying to get the right information

1635
01:39:19,119 --> 01:39:24,399
and honestly, if the Christian God is the real one, Like,

1636
01:39:24,560 --> 01:39:28,039
do you think that your God wants people to know

1637
01:39:28,079 --> 01:39:30,520
about him? Do you think he wants me to believe

1638
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:30,840
in him?

1639
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:38,840
Speaker 9: I want to know what he don't. I don't know that.

1640
01:39:40,079 --> 01:39:42,880
Speaker 3: Do you think it's Does it concern you at all?

1641
01:39:43,399 --> 01:39:44,960
The questions that doctor Ben is.

1642
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:48,399
Speaker 9: Asking you, Yes, I believe he dies.

1643
01:39:48,239 --> 01:39:50,399
Speaker 3: For you to No, that's not what I'm asking. Doesn't

1644
01:39:50,439 --> 01:39:53,000
concern you at all? The questions that Ben is asking.

1645
01:39:53,359 --> 01:39:57,560
Ben is saying that people have auditory hallucinations. People. Ben

1646
01:39:57,640 --> 01:40:00,600
is saying that people hear things that they believe is

1647
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:04,000
from God that can't be according to your belief right,

1648
01:40:04,039 --> 01:40:07,840
they have contradictory beliefs to yours that they heard in

1649
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:11,039
the same way that you're explaining yours. Does not? Does

1650
01:40:11,039 --> 01:40:13,800
that concern you at all? That these kind of things

1651
01:40:14,119 --> 01:40:18,600
are known to happen and it doesn't appear to be

1652
01:40:18,680 --> 01:40:22,039
affecting your decision making? Doesn't that concern you?

1653
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:27,600
Speaker 9: It is, like I said, but looking at the track records,

1654
01:40:28,399 --> 01:40:29,199
it doesn't bother me.

1655
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:33,880
Speaker 1: Sheldon, does does your God want me to know about him?

1656
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:36,920
Is there something that will happen to me if I

1657
01:40:37,039 --> 01:40:38,199
don't believe in God?

1658
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:41,880
Speaker 2: Do you believe in in Hell? Do you believe? What

1659
01:40:42,199 --> 01:40:43,720
do you believe in? About that?

1660
01:40:44,159 --> 01:40:47,680
Speaker 9: I do believe. I do believe that Hell exists.

1661
01:40:48,560 --> 01:40:50,960
Speaker 1: So do you believe that God wants to keep people

1662
01:40:51,039 --> 01:40:55,199
out of hell? Do you think that God wants people.

1663
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:56,000
Speaker 2: To be out of hell?

1664
01:40:57,600 --> 01:40:58,359
Speaker 9: I do believe that.

1665
01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:03,439
Speaker 1: Okay, So if God wants us to believe in him,

1666
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:07,119
why is his best evidence that some person I don't

1667
01:41:07,159 --> 01:41:09,439
even know heard a voice one day or heard a

1668
01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:10,960
voice over fifty years?

1669
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:12,760
Speaker 2: How is like?

1670
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:15,479
Speaker 1: If if God really wanted me to believe in him,

1671
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:19,800
why is he giving such like you're such.

1672
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:24,479
Speaker 9: I don't know that. I didn't profess to know that.

1673
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:26,439
Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like it sounds like if that's the

1674
01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:29,199
best if if that's the best evidence God can come

1675
01:41:29,319 --> 01:41:31,359
up with, it sounds like he doesn't want me to know,

1676
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:34,720
and so maybe I shouldn't believe if he doesn't want.

1677
01:41:34,640 --> 01:41:37,760
Speaker 9: You to know. Now I don't know. There are times

1678
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:42,159
that He's waited to allow certain things that choice I

1679
01:41:42,319 --> 01:41:46,039
made that he's warned me about, and then allow me

1680
01:41:46,119 --> 01:41:50,239
to make those choices and then allow me to understand

1681
01:41:50,479 --> 01:41:53,920
why you allow me to make those choices, because other

1682
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:58,840
than that me Sheldon would not be truly understand what

1683
01:41:59,000 --> 01:41:59,920
he was trying to show me.

1684
01:42:01,239 --> 01:42:03,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think we're just jumping around to a

1685
01:42:03,560 --> 01:42:04,520
bunch of different points.

1686
01:42:04,840 --> 01:42:06,760
Speaker 2: I think we're going to end here.

1687
01:42:06,800 --> 01:42:10,119
Speaker 1: But if you want to call back, like please come

1688
01:42:10,199 --> 01:42:15,199
up with even just your one or your three best

1689
01:42:15,279 --> 01:42:20,960
reasons to believe and tell us why we should believe you, like,

1690
01:42:21,039 --> 01:42:23,800
think about it really hard and think about would this

1691
01:42:23,920 --> 01:42:27,880
convince somebody else? Because if if this is true, I

1692
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:29,880
want to believe it, but you have to give me

1693
01:42:30,039 --> 01:42:31,199
enough information to work with.

1694
01:42:31,279 --> 01:42:34,399
Speaker 2: You have to you have to convince me and.

1695
01:42:34,399 --> 01:42:37,159
Speaker 3: More than that. When when doctor Ben asks you to

1696
01:42:37,159 --> 01:42:39,720
do that, it's not because we want you to convince us,

1697
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:43,279
although that is the case, but the reason it's important

1698
01:42:43,279 --> 01:42:47,119
because if something is not convincing to us and is

1699
01:42:47,279 --> 01:42:51,000
convincing to you, then we need to examine why that's different.

1700
01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:54,199
Why is it so much easier to convince you of

1701
01:42:54,279 --> 01:42:57,199
something than it is to convince us of something? If

1702
01:42:57,199 --> 01:43:00,000
it's because we're being too close minded. We want an

1703
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:02,199
or at least I do. I'm assume I don't want

1704
01:43:02,199 --> 01:43:04,039
to talk for doctor Ben but I assume doctor Ben

1705
01:43:04,079 --> 01:43:07,560
wants to know the truth as well, and likewise, on

1706
01:43:07,640 --> 01:43:09,920
the other side of that coin, if you're wrong, you

1707
01:43:09,960 --> 01:43:14,000
should want to know, as you've claimed that you do

1708
01:43:14,239 --> 01:43:18,319
want to know. Okay, So that's that's why we ask

1709
01:43:18,359 --> 01:43:20,359
you for these arguments. We don't want we don't. We

1710
01:43:20,840 --> 01:43:23,720
already know that you're convinced. You said you're a theist.

1711
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:27,279
We believe you, We believe that you've accepted these truths. Okay.

1712
01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:30,520
When we ask you, can you demonstrate that or can

1713
01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:32,399
you prove it? Or can you give us good evidence?

1714
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:34,960
It's not because we want you to go out and

1715
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:37,920
talk to somebody else. It's because we want to examine

1716
01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:41,079
why you believe it. And so if there's if there's

1717
01:43:41,079 --> 01:43:44,079
something that's not that we disagree on whether or not

1718
01:43:44,119 --> 01:43:47,079
it's convincing, we can talk about that. That gives us

1719
01:43:47,119 --> 01:43:50,880
something to some meaningful to address, because I'll you know,

1720
01:43:51,079 --> 01:43:53,359
we at least claim to want to know the truth.

1721
01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:56,680
If you're in that same boat, then we're on the

1722
01:43:56,720 --> 01:44:00,159
same team. We're trying to do the same thing. We're

1723
01:44:00,159 --> 01:44:02,840
trying to agree on what is the evidence, is the

1724
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:05,960
evidence compelling? And should we come to that same conclusion.

1725
01:44:06,159 --> 01:44:08,600
That's something that we can do together because we want

1726
01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:11,279
to talk about reality, which is independent from all three

1727
01:44:11,279 --> 01:44:14,880
of us. And so when we say when we ask

1728
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:18,079
for evidence, we're not we're not saying you have to

1729
01:44:18,119 --> 01:44:21,359
be an apologist and go out and make fissures of men,

1730
01:44:21,479 --> 01:44:24,520
although somebody else told you to do that. But we

1731
01:44:25,039 --> 01:44:27,800
do want to make sure that all of us are

1732
01:44:29,159 --> 01:44:33,880
thinking reasonably, thinking rationally, including us and including you, because

1733
01:44:33,880 --> 01:44:36,000
I think the world is better when most people do that.

1734
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:37,600
Does that make sense?

1735
01:44:39,279 --> 01:44:39,760
Speaker 9: That makes sense?

1736
01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:41,520
Speaker 3: Okay? All right?

1737
01:44:41,560 --> 01:44:41,800
Speaker 9: Good?

1738
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:42,079
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1739
01:44:42,439 --> 01:44:42,600
Speaker 7: Good?

1740
01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:44,600
Speaker 3: Maybe we can end on a common note there.

1741
01:44:45,399 --> 01:44:47,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely call back in.

1742
01:44:47,159 --> 01:44:50,359
Speaker 1: I'd love to continue this conversation call earlier on in

1743
01:44:50,399 --> 01:44:53,800
the show too, so that you can get some more time.

1744
01:44:53,840 --> 01:44:56,399
But thank you so much, and I hope you have

1745
01:44:56,479 --> 01:44:58,039
a great rest here to day.

1746
01:45:00,039 --> 01:45:00,239
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1747
01:45:00,239 --> 01:45:05,640
Speaker 1: Thanks, all right, Yeah, and that that's our show for tonight.

1748
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:11,000
Let's bring up Kelly, our backup host for today. Hey, Kelly,

1749
01:45:11,039 --> 01:45:14,000
thoughts and any thoughts on on today's show?

1750
01:45:14,319 --> 01:45:15,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a couple.

1751
01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:17,640
Speaker 8: I don't want to be too long because I know

1752
01:45:17,680 --> 01:45:20,399
we've gone over, So I just a note for Donald,

1753
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:24,199
if you're still watching. Philosophy does help us figure out

1754
01:45:24,239 --> 01:45:26,840
what questions to ask, but it doesn't give us the

1755
01:45:26,880 --> 01:45:29,279
answers to those questions. And I think you should keep

1756
01:45:29,319 --> 01:45:33,239
that in mind. So another thing I wanted to say was,

1757
01:45:33,279 --> 01:45:35,520
and this is just for everybody. When you when you're

1758
01:45:35,560 --> 01:45:39,159
interacting with people this week, talk nicely because as George

1759
01:45:39,239 --> 01:45:44,239
Orwell said, just as thought creates words, your words create thoughts.

1760
01:45:44,880 --> 01:45:46,560
So I just want to put that out there. It's

1761
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:50,720
just be nice this week. And uh, that's it. Oh

1762
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:55,039
and about the uh, this really cool Talk Heathen takeover

1763
01:45:55,079 --> 01:45:56,800
of the show. You know, I am one of the

1764
01:45:56,840 --> 01:45:59,520
official backup posts up Talk Heathen, so all three of

1765
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:02,640
us are. I'm here, but I am also I am

1766
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:05,840
also one of the regular hosts. Oh truth wanted.

1767
01:46:06,039 --> 01:46:08,239
Speaker 2: No, no, no, we can't. We can't show their other

1768
01:46:08,279 --> 01:46:10,239
shows on here. No no, this is.

1769
01:46:10,239 --> 01:46:17,560
Speaker 1: Truth Talk Heathen, only Talk Heathen only today. Don't even

1770
01:46:17,560 --> 01:46:21,239
mention the nonprofits. We can't even we can't go on that.

1771
01:46:21,239 --> 01:46:24,439
Speaker 3: It is the flagship show, so we have there might

1772
01:46:24,479 --> 01:46:27,640
be there might be some special attention there. But before

1773
01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:30,000
we wrap up, I just want I want to especially

1774
01:46:30,039 --> 01:46:32,479
thank doctor Ben. I think you've gone to great lengths

1775
01:46:32,479 --> 01:46:35,680
to arrange this. You you abducted J Mike so that I

1776
01:46:35,680 --> 01:46:37,840
could be on the show, and you you arranged for

1777
01:46:37,880 --> 01:46:39,920
all these math calls at the beginning just to make

1778
01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:43,399
me feel welcome. So doctor Ben, I really appreciate the effort.

1779
01:46:43,479 --> 01:46:45,720
You really want the extra mile for me today, So

1780
01:46:45,760 --> 01:46:46,720
I appreciate that.

1781
01:46:47,359 --> 01:46:51,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this is definitely I definitely prophesied and I

1782
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:55,000
definitely before this and we and we got math callers.

1783
01:46:57,039 --> 01:46:59,600
But yeah, and I do want to mention, like real quickly,

1784
01:46:59,760 --> 01:47:03,760
I I appreciate how we had a few disagreements with

1785
01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:07,039
the callers on this show, but it was very cordial.

1786
01:47:07,680 --> 01:47:11,640
Nobody was attacking each other as a person, Nobody was

1787
01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:18,600
shouting insults, nobody was threatening human rights necessarily in these calls.

1788
01:47:18,640 --> 01:47:22,640
So I just I just appreciate the fact that we

1789
01:47:23,039 --> 01:47:27,560
can have conversations with this and have it be cordial.

1790
01:47:27,960 --> 01:47:29,760
Speaker 2: And I really liked that we did that.

1791
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:33,520
Speaker 1: So callers, if you're listening, thank you so much for

1792
01:47:34,319 --> 01:47:38,600
bringing some some good discussion. I greatly appreciate it and

1793
01:47:38,880 --> 01:47:42,960
definitely want you to call back in so any other

1794
01:47:43,159 --> 01:47:45,680
any other words from you too?

1795
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:49,199
Speaker 3: Oh great show, great show, said my thing.

1796
01:47:49,159 --> 01:47:51,760
Speaker 2: So awesome. Thank you so much.

1797
01:47:51,800 --> 01:47:55,600
Speaker 1: Everybody, remember be back here next week at four thirty

1798
01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:56,600
pm Central Time.

1799
01:47:57,000 --> 01:47:58,800
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Have a great night.

1800
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:02,279
Speaker 3: Lightle say.

1801
01:48:04,359 --> 01:48:06,039
Speaker 2: To dot ALB.

1802
01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:12,720
Speaker 1: Stop passing the bulls embry around you.

1803
01:48:13,079 --> 01:48:16,119
Speaker 4: Five say.

1804
01:48:18,159 --> 01:48:21,479
Speaker 2: Watch Talking Than Live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit

1805
01:48:21,520 --> 01:48:24,439
tiny dot c c slash y t t H and

1806
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:26,960
call into the show at five one two nine nine

1807
01:48:27,039 --> 01:48:29,520
one nine two four two, or connect to the show

1808
01:48:29,600 --> 01:48:32,760
online at tiny dot c c slash call th H